The Accidental Tech Podcast

175: Dance Palace


  I was always just thinking this process [TS]

  that would save me I just thought like [TS]

  well I'll just I'll stick it out and [TS]

  nobody knew file system here probably [TS]

  next year and I've been thinking that [TS]

  for a lot of years [TS]

  well I spent this morning trying to [TS]

  parallel eyes the lame mp3 encoder why [TS]

  why not very hard problem that hasn't [TS]

  been solved since like the early two [TS]

  thousands and I often need to encode our [TS]

  show mp3 which takes probably i don't [TS]

  know 90 seconds to include it's it's [TS]

  it's a surprisingly long time for a [TS]

  modern computing tasks like that and [TS]

  that annoys me and so I figured why [TS]

  don't I spend the afternoon seeing if I [TS]

  can paralyze the the mp3 encoder and I [TS]

  have to enter there are faster encoders [TS]

  than the lame encoder and I know this is [TS]

  hard for me to talk about being know [TS]

  that the word lame is really not a nice [TS]

  word to say but it's kind of like the [TS]

  like the gift photo editor like also not [TS]

  a nice word to say and for whatever [TS]

  reason these open source project named [TS]

  themselves these acronyms without regard [TS]

  to what those words mean and how they [TS]

  hurt people so i'm sorry in advance but [TS]

  it's called the lame mp3 encoder it and [TS]

  it is I i have tested many different [TS]

  encoding options for podcast audio from [TS]

  mp3 AAC the HEA see like the the mp3 [TS]

  protocol like that the add-on like [TS]

  spectral record things to these formats [TS]

  and simple joint stereo with the lame [TS]

  mp3 encoder is by far the the highest [TS]

  quality and at the best bit rates that I [TS]

  have been found [TS]

  it's really it's really quite good so [TS]

  problem is mp3 encoding is very [TS]

  difficult to parallel eyes at least [TS]

  while also doing it well and so that's [TS]

  what I'm kind of trying to do here just [TS]

  for ATP well I mean ideally I would you [TS]

  know ship this to other people as well [TS]

  you know maybe open source it or maybe [TS]

  just embedded into my production tool [TS]

  about that I have to at some point [TS]

  hopefully maybe release so that it could [TS]

  it could be helpful because one of the [TS]

  problems is like we've basically hit a [TS]

  wall of single-threaded performance on [TS]

  modern computers like we're not really [TS]

  getting much better at that and that [TS]

  that's like one of the only tasks that i [TS]

  do a regular basis my computer where I'm [TS]

  just like dying for more [TS]

  4 gigahertz on my own one core so if i [TS]

  can eliminate that that that makes me [TS]

  happy with my computers and it makes me [TS]

  happier with you know potential future [TS]

  imax and mac pros and macbooks and [TS]

  things because I can include our show [TS]

  you for eight times faster and fast [TS]

  enough that doesn't matter anymore [TS]

  that makes sense well good luck i mean [TS]

  i'd love to see that happen because i [TS]

  think would make a lot of people very [TS]

  happy but got that sounds like a royal [TS]

  pain in the hindquarters it really is [TS]

  the the one saving grace of this is that [TS]

  that you know normally if you're dealing [TS]

  with like a non-trivial sized open [TS]

  source project or heck even regular [TS]

  sized one usually they have HS [TS]

  dependency hell and usually it is so [TS]

  hard to get to the point where you can [TS]

  even build the thing let alone like [TS]

  trying to make changes and you know try [TS]

  to test things and it it is such a pain [TS]

  because they all depend on with your [TS]

  weird crazy libraries that you don't [TS]

  have that yet that are hard to install [TS]

  mac OS 10 or something and it's such a [TS]

  pain usually lame is actually really [TS]

  simple there's not much to it it's it's [TS]

  not very many files and there's as far [TS]

  as I know there's no external [TS]

  dependencies and except maybe like you [TS]

  know basically be stuff that everything [TS]

  has so it's pretty it's really actually [TS]

  quite pleasant to work on so kudos to [TS]

  the lane project this all see your C++ [TS]

  it's all see which is also nice guy i [TS]

  don't really know a lot of c++ so it has [TS]

  a movie piercy is is also kind of a [TS]

  welcome welcome change [TS]

  it's like back a few jobs ago back when [TS]

  you actually had a job yeah exactly i [TS]

  still like see a lot I mean I recognize [TS]

  that you know it you know it like [TS]

  working and see nowadays it's like [TS]

  having like a like a classic car that [TS]

  you work on your garage you know it's [TS]

  like it's like it's really it's really [TS]

  fulfilling and its really nice and cool [TS]

  did if if that's like your personality [TS]

  type but i really would would be [TS]

  hard-pressed to justify using it for [TS]

  like quote real work anymore but but I [TS]

  really do enjoy working with it now in [TS]

  the on you know on the occasion that i [TS]

  need to work on it or not I mean [TS]

  anything's better than perl PHP am i [TS]

  right [TS]

  so anyway we should do some fun [TS]

  well this year mac pro support this is [TS]

  not good times for John siracusa that's [TS]

  not so bad times either marcos theory [TS]

  was that it was because of the [TS]

  instructions [TS]

  yeah my theory was the heart hardware [TS]

  like encryption instructions that intel [TS]

  has added over time but turns out [TS]

  nope well I mean we didn't get any [TS]

  official word on it but talking to a [TS]

  whole bunch of people hey why do you [TS]

  think they dropped support for this [TS]

  computer that computer the general [TS]

  consensus was that they just dropped [TS]

  support for computers that are old [TS]

  because it's a pain in the butt to keep [TS]

  supporting them and there's lots of [TS]

  things that are a pain to keep [TS]

  supporting and if you do anything to us [TS]

  that changes sort of the driver model or [TS]

  the requires drivers to be even just [TS]

  recompiled or change in some subtle way [TS]

  supporting old hardware like say the [TS]

  airport card that could be put into my [TS]

  2008 mac pro that's kind of a pain and [TS]

  you don't want to bother with that but [TS]

  the big one I think is a video drivers [TS]

  because there's usually some [TS]

  participation from the video card vendor [TS]

  whether it be a AMD ati or nvidia in the [TS]

  creation of the drivers for OS 10 for [TS]

  these various GPUs and apple doesn't [TS]

  wanna keep doing that and usually if you [TS]

  were to go to AMD and say hey we're [TS]

  making a new version of the operating [TS]

  system can you help us or either help us [TS]

  to or do entirely on your own drivers [TS]

  for that work with the Sierra colonel [TS]

  and this ancient 2008 mac pro I don't [TS]

  think they're came to do that but anyway [TS]

  lots of reasons why you might want to [TS]

  support old hardware and yeah no no [TS]

  specific smoking gun for any particular [TS]

  hardware feature that is not supported [TS]

  and adding adding to this pile of a [TS]

  support for the idea that it's just [TS]

  because it's old is that 2009 macros are [TS]

  also not supported the contrary drove i [TS]

  hoped on the last show [TS]

  so that means my work Mac can't run [TS]

  Sierra either we're gonna do I'm gonna [TS]

  wait i'm going to wait until the new [TS]

  it's almost it's almost this you have to [TS]

  buy a new computer [TS]

  I everyone gets laptops at work now so [TS]

  i'm going to wait until the new macbook [TS]

  pros come out and then i'm going to wait [TS]

  another month and then I'm going to get [TS]

  a new computer work now you you do [TS]

  realize that the new macbook pros will [TS]

  almost certainly have the arrow key [TS]

  layout that you hate [TS]

  I'm not gonna use that keyboard yeah [TS]

  that's it it's just gonna be sitting off [TS]

  to the side with a screen that I never [TS]

  look at connected to an external screen [TS]

  like i'm just using it as a weird-shaped [TS]

  mac mini that's my plan because i only [TS]

  have one screen at work and it's not a [TS]

  great screen but whatever it's fine [TS]

  so I'll keep doing that are probably [TS]

  want to get the 15-inch so i can put in [TS]

  mirrored display mode but that's how [TS]

  much i'm not going to use a second [TS]

  screen just so my windows and crap won't [TS]

  move when i disconnect the monitor [TS]

  availability the same as on both you [TS]

  know I mean that's my current plan i [TS]

  love that your current plan like I [TS]

  clearly didn't even consider another mac [TS]

  pro well I cannot work would never buy [TS]

  that for me like I my back was the first [TS]

  mac at the entire company and I had to [TS]

  get special dispensation to get it and [TS]

  it was like way more expensive than the [TS]

  four hundred dollar piece of crap dell [TS]

  laptops they were getting everybody back [TS]

  then [TS]

  mine was like the cheapest possible mac [TS]

  pro you could get in the minimum [TS]

  configuration it was like fifteen [TS]

  hundred dollars and it took so much for [TS]

  them to choke it down [TS]

  nowadays they're better about buying max [TS]

  if you want and they'll buy you know [TS]

  their danger 15-inch macbook pro and [TS]

  that's what I plan on getting but not [TS]

  the mac pro is not an option either is [TS]

  an imac for that matter would you get an [TS]

  imac over a macbook pro if you had the [TS]

  choice [TS]

  yes I would is the is the base model 5k [TS]

  imac not price competitive with the [TS]

  15-inch macbook pro I don't think its [TS]

  price i think it's in understand big [TS]

  corporations they just want to do things [TS]

  the way they want to do them and they [TS]

  want regularity and uniformity they [TS]

  don't want you to be a special snowflake [TS]

  on specific computer they only having [TS]

  support and know and understand two [TS]

  kinds of computers on the backside and [TS]

  whatever I don't maybe i'll ask about it [TS]

  but this is exactly my experience like [TS]

  my company is get least Max and I think [TS]

  there are two year leases and basically [TS]

  your choices are macbook pro if you do [TS]

  some sort of development work i believe [TS]

  a macbook air if you don't or some sort [TS]

  of god awful dell and those are may [TS]

  actually might be an HP some awful got [TS]

  some sort of god awful pc but it's one [TS]

  of those three and if you want anything [TS]

  else under the Sun well tough noogies [TS]

  because this helped us does not want to [TS]

  support it so I'm right there with you [TS]

  are now to be fair I [TS]

  microprose very nice and I have no [TS]

  complaints i'm just saying that that is [TS]

  the way corporate America works you must [TS]

  conform you must be one of the people in [TS]

  that 1984 commercial you must be a [TS]

  faceless number in the crowd that is [TS]

  using one of the Blessed computers i [TS]

  miss the days when I was unsupported too [TS]

  because when I was the first company [TS]

  like all right but you're gonna be [TS]

  totally unsupported like yes that's [TS]

  exactly what I won't get to be totally [TS]

  unsupported don't touch my computer ever [TS]

  do nothing to it unfortunately now the [TS]

  macs are officially supported I am beset [TS]

  on all sides by terrible things like and [TS]

  your mac to the active directory network [TS]

  no all right run symantec antivirus on [TS]

  your Mac that's real important run these [TS]

  other applications in the background [TS]

  that will grind your cpu to death as it [TS]

  does who knows what it's it's really [TS]

  terrible that we have one question do [TS]

  you have to install adobe acrobat I [TS]

  don't have to but it could be installed [TS]

  on my behalf silently in the background [TS]

  any day come to work who knows what's [TS]

  happened to my computer because it's not [TS]

  under my control they just force install [TS]

  software on it whenever they want none [TS]

  of that software makes my experience of [TS]

  using the computer better but supposedly [TS]

  now I'm protected from viruses [TS]

  yeah whatever I can't believe you stand [TS]

  for anyone else having any sort of [TS]

  access to your computer like I [TS]

  understand that you have no choice i [TS]

  told you get that but you of all people [TS]

  allowing that vulnerability if you will [TS]

  I am stunned that you that you stand for [TS]

  that it's wrong foot working you don't [TS]

  like that you have no choice [TS]

  the final bit is like how sad is this [TS]

  really it's not really that said i [TS]

  installed Sarah mid-2008 mac pro it runs [TS]

  fine because i have an aftermarket GPU [TS]

  installers little bit cranky about it [TS]

  but if you just like i'm installing an [TS]

  external disk at this point because Mike [TS]

  install main system is the first [TS]

  developer release so i installed it on [TS]

  an external hard drive using my 2011 [TS]

  macbook air and then i just deleted a [TS]

  single file from the thing system [TS]

  library core services platform support [TS]

  plist just dunno I'm renamed or whatever [TS]

  and then I'm a cube pro 2008 boots from [TS]

  it just fine and it runs fine far as i [TS]

  can tell so I don't think it'll be that [TS]

  big a deal i may end up doing the same [TS]

  thing with my mac at work about I'm sure [TS]

  corporate IT would love that [TS]

  but uh don't you know I'll i could try [TS]

  that right before i give up and say okay [TS]

  fine get me the new laptops or whatever [TS]

  anyway if you have a 2008 prime macro [TS]

  and other unsupported computer [TS]

  you see i might work for you if the set [TS]

  of hardware you have is not the stock [TS]

  set of hardware that came with that [TS]

  computer so hold on a second so you [TS]

  generally do some amount of work at home [TS]

  on a semi-regular basis is that correct [TS]

  so what you're doing that on your [TS]

  personal machine because you have a [TS]

  macro working macro home right [TS]

  yeah so that's cool with you like just [TS]

  an external hard drive is just like I [TS]

  have like seven hard drives connected to [TS]

  my computer like for internal and three [TS]

  external and have them are turned off [TS]

  most of the time the other ones are [TS]

  mounted most of the time it's really [TS]

  easy to just put a beta OS on external [TS]

  drive as a reboot and boot off of that [TS]

  drive and it's fine i immediately [TS]

  unmount all my other drives when i [TS]

  launched nice like it's not it's not a [TS]

  concern right now i'm gonna i'm not on [TS]

  Sierra at all is on a general level you [TS]

  you have put you have infected your home [TS]

  computer with work-related things is my [TS]

  point [TS]

  well now because I just remote desktop [TS]

  into my with my make it work to do stuff [TS]

  ok so you have infected with some sort [TS]

  of VPN connection i have infected the [TS]

  VPN software is installed for me to get [TS]

  on the VPN enough to about desktop i [TS]

  gotcha ok so any of the development [TS]

  isn't really strictly speaking happening [TS]

  locally and and really it's not even [TS]

  happening in my mackie their meaning [TS]

  from then and assess aging and you know [TS]

  like it's not unlike you I'm not [TS]

  actually doing development on my mac [TS]

  really I mean except for like the web [TS]

  browsers around all the actual code and [TS]

  everything else is on servers you know [TS]

  gotcha all right now that's actually [TS]

  fairly fascinating [TS]

  I i did not know that ok anything else [TS]

  about the mac pro sport it will never [TS]

  end [TS]

  anything else today alright I the talk [TS]

  show live this was recorded tuesday the [TS]

  this power [TS]

  I'm sorry tuesday before this past God [TS]

  knows by the time this thing's releases [TS]

  try to two months ago but anyway the [TS]

  tuesday that on WABC was going on there [TS]

  was a talk show again this year was it [TS]

  two years ago that we were guess I think [TS]

  and then you know the only the only [TS]

  reasonable conclusion after having a [TS]

  listen this impossibly awesome an [TS]

  attractive trio on stage [TS]

  is to have a filler who followed up last [TS]

  year and then this year what are you [TS]

  gonna do well why not have Phil Schiller [TS]

  and Craig federighi and we were all [TS]

  there we were sitting in the front row [TS]

  and it was amazing and i cannot say [TS]

  enough good things about this this talk [TS]

  show if you are not a regular talks or [TS]

  listener if you're one of the ten people [TS]

  that do not listen to the talk show but [TS]

  do listen to the show I cannot encourage [TS]

  you enough to listen to this episode of [TS]

  the talk show will have a link in the [TS]

  show notes it is excellent there's also [TS]

  a video I which was very good from what [TS]

  I've gathered i haven't actually watched [TS]

  it myself but seeing Craig and Phil talk [TS]

  to each other and talk to the audience [TS]

  and talk to John Gruber all of all the [TS]

  above was amazing and there's a few line [TS]

  items that we'd like to go through about [TS]

  that but one of the things that made me [TS]

  kind of laugh and and really that I [TS]

  loved about it made me love Craig better [TS]

  even more was as the talk show is going [TS]

  on [TS]

  Craig on the surface looked comfortable [TS]

  but if you really looked at him for more [TS]

  than a second you realize he is not in [TS]

  love with what he's doing right now not [TS]

  like not the john was doing anything [TS]

  wrong not that phil was doing anything [TS]

  wrong you can just tell the Craig was [TS]

  like a little nervous and not entirely [TS]

  comfortable with what was going on and [TS]

  he was leaning forward a lot he he kept [TS]

  tonight i did the same thing when we [TS]

  were on the talk show at that dub he [TS]

  kept leaning forward and then like [TS]

  putting his his elbow on his knee and in [TS]

  propping his head up and then I think [TS]

  you could really realize that kinda [TS]

  looks a little weird for those in the [TS]

  audience then he would try to like [TS]

  casually put his arm down which I'm sure [TS]

  if we look at the video of me onstage I [TS]

  probably this 35 times but there's [TS]

  there's a lot of that but the thing that [TS]

  struck me the most was when John Gruber [TS]

  talked about something developer related [TS]

  not only did Craig have impossibly good [TS]

  answers for all the questions sometimes [TS]

  more forthcoming then maybe he should [TS]

  have but he SAT bolt upright every time [TS]

  and he was so confident and so sure of [TS]

  himself and it was so awesome [TS]

  to see and god I love that guy so much [TS]

  yeah it was such a good show [TS]

  I mean it really was you know you can [TS]

  you can think about like you know what [TS]

  what kind of show would you expect to [TS]

  have where Apple executives give an [TS]

  interview you know and and if you think [TS]

  about it just like that you might think [TS]

  well they shouldn't be you know going [TS]

  over PR talking points and everything [TS]

  and certainly some of what they say is [TS]

  PR talking points but it most of it [TS]

  isn't and most of it is like yeah and I [TS]

  won't talk to this weekend without yet [TS]

  but I basically reviewed the show for [TS]

  John on his own chosen no he wouldn't do [TS]

  it himself and so forget the repetition [TS]

  here but i think one of the best insight [TS]

  about the first of all is that we got to [TS]

  see to apple executives interacting with [TS]

  each other and you never see that like [TS]

  even people in apple hardly ever see [TS]

  that it's okay to see that in this [TS]

  contact these these two people who [TS]

  clearly have known each other for a very [TS]

  long time and working for a very long [TS]

  time to people on top of their game and [TS]

  phil and Craig are really excellent at [TS]

  their jobs and they both have incredibly [TS]

  deep knowledge about the stuff that we [TS]

  care about and the stuff that grouper [TS]

  would be asking questions about activity [TS]

  c so like I was thinking like you know [TS]

  we were speculating beforehand know [TS]

  who's gonna have this you have this year [TS]

  and you know one of the one of the ideas [TS]

  what if he asked him cook and having Tim [TS]

  Cook would be like it'd be really like a [TS]

  great badge of honor it would be like a [TS]

  really noteworthy thing but I think [TS]

  having filling Craig is actually a [TS]

  better set for that audience for that [TS]

  time because phil is really lit in many [TS]

  ways it seems like he is kind of like [TS]

  the head of product direction on some [TS]

  level and and you know it seems to be [TS]

  kind of a shared role in Steve's absence [TS]

  you know Johnny obviously has something [TS]

  to do with it [TS]

  I think Tim still has some probably [TS]

  something to do with it as well and who [TS]

  knows who else but it seems like a lot [TS]

  of that falls on Phil just display [TS]

  products students in general also phil [TS]

  is the head of the app store now [TS]

  so again like very relevant to this [TS]

  audience and then you have a federal key [TS]

  who is [TS]

  you know yes we knew he was the [TS]

  executive in charge of software [TS]

  engineering stuff but i don't think a [TS]

  lot of us knew quite how much of an [TS]

  engineer he is and also you know not [TS]

  only does he have deep technical chops [TS]

  but he also has deep knowledge of like [TS]

  specific implementation details of the [TS]

  stuff they're doing now so it's not like [TS]

  he ascended into the into like this [TS]

  ivory tower and is just like dictating [TS]

  things down to his minutes have them do [TS]

  all the work and he's just being a [TS]

  figurehead he's clearly still very much [TS]

  involved in those decisions and very [TS]

  like very very very technical down too [TS]

  deep levels and and able to explain that [TS]

  very well [TS]

  so to have that combo of like the [TS]

  product guy in the app store guy and you [TS]

  know infill and then to have Craig as [TS]

  like the technical head is is really i [TS]

  think the perfect combo to have at WC + [TS]

  i think their personalities work really [TS]

  well both in general and also with John [TS]

  Gruber being the interviewer so overall [TS]

  I I i would much rather have them then [TS]

  have Tim in that context and I think it [TS]

  was as good as it possibly can i think [TS]

  it was great [TS]

  mostly agree with other team would have [TS]

  been more boring but I've been thinking [TS]

  about it more since the DC we could like [TS]

  it really does depend on the topic that [TS]

  you're interested in you know if it [TS]

  mentioned Johnny I've obviously if [TS]

  you're going to have a bunch of [TS]

  questions about design stuff he's the [TS]

  guy you want and Phil is not going to be [TS]

  able to give you much they're neither is [TS]

  Craig for that matter because like you [TS]

  know product design whether it be [TS]

  hardware or software is Johnny's domain [TS]

  and a lot of the decisions that are made [TS]

  they're at their you know i would [TS]

  imagine that they could add some inside [TS]

  of you need you want the man himself if [TS]

  you wanna get that information so [TS]

  there's Johnny set aside and then Tim [TS]

  after Apple comes out with the car the [TS]

  guy you want to talk to him cook until [TS]

  you know like the deep car people [TS]

  because your main question is why is [TS]

  Apple chosen to make a car and the [TS]

  person who can answer that best is tim [TS]

  cook right because that's a decision at [TS]

  his level so I would actually like to [TS]

  see tim cook at some point but for the [TS]

  topics i was interested in this year and [TS]

  most years [TS]

  yeah I'd rather hear from craig and to a [TS]

  lesser extent filled because I'm much [TS]

  more interested in the technical less [TS]

  interested in the app store stuff but [TS]

  the WC like you said a lot of people [TS]

  interested in appstore exactly the [TS]

  reason the talk show [TS]

  live is a topic in the follow-up ears [TS]

  because i was adding items to follow up [TS]

  of bits and pieces and I realized most [TS]

  of them were information from the talk [TS]

  show live [TS]

  the main reason i was just people listen [TS]

  to it is that it has information that [TS]

  you probably won't see elsewhere because [TS]

  you know i can fill and Craig around [TS]

  there and they didn't just say things [TS]

  that were already said that WC they [TS]

  didn't just say things that have already [TS]

  been said by Apple PR they provided new [TS]

  information and some but i thought was [TS]

  interesting and and you won't know [TS]

  unless you listen to that or listen to [TS]

  these tidbits that I pulled out of it [TS]

  the first one is about an iOS 10 how you [TS]

  can get rid of the Apple apps like if [TS]

  you don't the stock app so that the tips [TS]

  app or whatever you don't have to hide [TS]

  them in a folder anymore you can now [TS]

  delete them but they aren't actually [TS]

  deleted as many people speculated and [TS]

  has been speculated for a long time [TS]

  before the future even appeared they're [TS]

  not actually removed from the system [TS]

  even though when you delete them you can [TS]

  go to the store and then redownload them [TS]

  but as I think it was Craig said on [TS]

  stage that download will run [TS]

  suspiciously fast because i am actually [TS]

  from your computer all the apps are [TS]

  saying oh yeah I'll redownload those for [TS]

  you and it just reveals them again a [TS]

  bunch of reasons were given for actually [TS]

  leaving them on the system you will [TS]

  delete I think the documents and data [TS]

  associated with it but you won't do the [TS]

  actual executable so that was [TS]

  interesting tidbit the other one is [TS]

  relevant to a couple of stories and [TS]

  tweets that are going around about the [TS]

  the current beta of the appstore add [TS]

  service where they'll you know people [TS]

  can try it out for free now and all you [TS]

  do at this point is say yes I want to [TS]

  help my app into the ad service [TS]

  I don't think either the keywords and [TS]

  everything as well but anyway I looked [TS]

  around and couldn't find anything else [TS]

  to do so I have to my at my appt in but [TS]

  I think that just means that apple will [TS]

  I can shove it on top of search results [TS]

  sometimes but I don't think I have any [TS]

  control over that [TS]

  yeah it's like the automated woman is [TS]

  that if you don't want to pick your [TS]

  keywords in doing that stuff just we'll [TS]

  figure it out for you and so one of the [TS]

  little controversies that spun up on [TS]

  Twitter was a i think it was someone [TS]

  from Tweetbot was saying they search for [TS]

  tweet pot like the actual name of the [TS]

  application and the number-one hit the [TS]

  ad at the top of the other search [TS]

  results wasn't ad for twitterrific and [TS]

  it looks like all twitterrific has [TS]

  purchased the tweet but keyword but they [TS]

  haven't because you can't even do that [TS]

  at that point and I didn't [TS]

  and that brings up the whole topic that [TS]

  we discussed before about buying someone [TS]

  else's trademark as a keyword so if you [TS]

  have an application if you were you know [TS]

  the the maker of Twitter everything you [TS]

  wanted to buy the word the keyword [TS]

  Tweetbot could you do that that was [TS]

  addressed by Phil Schiller and the [TS]

  doctor alive and he said that they are [TS]

  explicitly allowing this i think this is [TS]

  a direct quote from the transmittances [TS]

  you can use someone else's brand in your [TS]

  AdWords that you want as we thought [TS]

  about it that is more likely to benefit [TS]

  the small developer than the big [TS]

  developer the idea is that if you have a [TS]

  well-known brand if you like clash of [TS]

  clans or something you're not going to [TS]

  by keyword for some tiny little [TS]

  application doesn't time a little [TS]

  similar game that doesn't sell a lot of [TS]

  copies but if you make a game it's [TS]

  similar to clash of clans and you want [TS]

  to break into the market and really [TS]

  right now you don't have any customers [TS]

  maybe you by the clash of clans keyword [TS]

  that is the theory behind this and Phil [TS]

  articulates it is the most [TS]

  straightforward manner is you're going [TS]

  to get and it was surprising to a lot of [TS]

  people and we'll see how it plays out [TS]

  real life but from the perspective of [TS]

  app developers especially after the [TS]

  operation of on are uneven footing it [TS]

  seems like a pretty scummy thing to do [TS]

  to buy your competitors trademark so i [TS]

  think a lot of people are not going to [TS]

  do it because it seems rude and I would [TS]

  imagine the companies that would do it [TS]

  are exactly the companies that are big [TS]

  because they have no scruples and aren't [TS]

  run by an individual who is answerable [TS]

  to their practices and they have a [TS]

  marketing department is measured on how [TS]

  well they boost sales and so i think is [TS]

  gonna happen a lot [TS]

  I'm not entirely convinced that it's [TS]

  going to benefit the small developer [TS]

  more than the big developer but we'll [TS]

  see and again we'll talk directly about [TS]

  this issue when questioned about it on [TS]

  dr. live so check it out [TS]

  yeah i think it there's a number of you [TS]

  know issues and factors that go into [TS]

  this [TS]

  what exactly is a small developer [TS]

  because I think who this will actually [TS]

  hurt most are people like twitterrific [TS]

  and Tweetbot and maybe overcast we're [TS]

  kind of medium-sized developers were [TS]

  like we're not big enough for like the [TS]

  clash of clans people to build our [TS]

  keywords because who cares like you know [TS]

  we are nothing compared to what they get [TS]

  and we're also not related but other [TS]

  people who makes you know who make apps [TS]

  are related to podcasting or related to [TS]

  Twitter [TS]

  would very easily like bid on like the [TS]

  medium-sized apps in their category and [TS]

  on those keywords so like you know I [TS]

  view myself as a small developer in the [TS]

  grand scheme of things but a lot of [TS]

  people view / cast as a big gap in the [TS]

  category relative to their app so like [TS]

  you know I think when Phil says this he [TS]

  thinks this will benefit small [TS]

  developers I don't think he's talking [TS]

  about people like overcast and Tweetbot [TS]

  and twitterrific i think is talking [TS]

  about like little things that most of us [TS]

  have never heard of that happen to be in [TS]

  the same categories [TS]

  he's right that it would probably [TS]

  benefit them like you know the kind of [TS]

  thing where like if you search for that [TS]

  Twitter or whatever you know you get a [TS]

  couple of twitter apps and you get a [TS]

  whole bunch of what looks like just [TS]

  garbage and spam and it's like you know [TS]

  photo rotation apps for twitter or stuff [TS]

  like that you know that kind of stuff [TS]

  it's gonna be that kind of app I think [TS]

  that bet that could benefit from this [TS]

  not medium-sized apps like to directly [TS]

  pot overcast [TS]

  the other problem here is well and if [TS]

  that happens to the project one is that [TS]

  we've had you know kind of a kind of [TS]

  like down low key word spam issues in [TS]

  iTunes Connect since the beginning the [TS]

  app store you know the apps have a [TS]

  keyword field they can enter keywords [TS]

  into it for search and those have [TS]

  historically been used pretty pretty [TS]

  strongly for relevance in search more so [TS]

  than the description that is publicly [TS]

  shown the problem is these keywords are [TS]

  not publicly visible anywhere and so [TS]

  there's kind of no downside for a nap to [TS]

  put its competitors or other large apps [TS]

  names in those keywords and Apple has a [TS]

  rule against this but in practice that [TS]

  rules only really enforced and [TS]

  enforceable against like large trademark [TS]

  like Disney you know so if you it'd be [TS]

  hard to put disney in your keywords and [TS]

  get accepted your app review but you [TS]

  know if if another twitter app puts [TS]

  Tweetbot it's keywords that is way more [TS]

  likely to get in and to get to get [TS]

  through and historically that has been [TS]

  seemingly very badly enforced by app [TS]

  review and Phil even kind of said [TS]

  something along the lines of like we [TS]

  know we're going to be you know trying [TS]

  to step that up you know something about [TS]

  something to that degree and then [TS]

  thirdly the problem is the name of you [TS]

  notice if you put down [TS]

  overcast your [TS]

  word and use might search for the word [TS]

  overcast to test this out and then my [TS]

  app shows up below some added you might [TS]

  think this is horrible [TS]

  my app is not called overcast in the app [TS]

  store my app is called overcast colon [TS]

  podcast player and if you look at almost [TS]

  every other instance of this of this [TS]

  kind of like you know add doing what [TS]

  seems like the wrong thing like Tweetbot [TS]

  is not just named Tweetbot twitterrific [TS]

  is not just named twitterrific so it's [TS]

  called like you know tweetbot for [TS]

  twitter twitter fake twitter client [TS]

  stuff like that like we missed you know [TS]

  in the last couple years that we've all [TS]

  kind of succumb to having to add [TS]

  keywords to our apt names because quite [TS]

  simply it works better and the search [TS]

  has been horrible and it's been one of [TS]

  the only ways you your gave up on the [TS]

  search improving like you know what [TS]

  forget we will mango we will mangle the [TS]

  name of our application because there's [TS]

  no other way to come up in the search [TS]

  results i mean i remember when traffic [TS]

  today years ago like it was a sad day [TS]

  because it just really ugly ass up the [TS]

  name but the problem is people would [TS]

  search for twitter and just the [TS]

  twitterrific would be 700 results down [TS]

  like the relevance was so bad even [TS]

  though it was a popular third-party [TS]

  twitter client and when someone searches [TS]

  for Twitter it would be a good idea to [TS]

  show them the you know we'll reviewed [TS]

  popular frequently updated Twitter [TS]

  clients and instead it's like no Twitter [TS]

  doesn't appear anywhere in your name or [TS]

  does but it's just a prefix and like the [TS]

  fact that twitterrific didn't show up in [TS]

  the search results for Twitter into [TS]

  waited lowdown that's just said so i [TS]

  would hope that as part of this effort [TS]

  to like police the keywords for [TS]

  trademarks more often and stuff they [TS]

  will also improve the search of the [TS]

  point where you don't have to name angle [TS]

  essentially anymore but we'll see [TS]

  well the other thing is like I try with [TS]

  overcast I tried not name mangling but [TS]

  you know i launched overcast fairly late [TS]

  in the appstore relative to the other [TS]

  apps there was already an app named [TS]

  exactly the string overcast [TS]

  in fact even kind of the developer and [TS]

  tried to buy it from him and he agreed [TS]

  and we had agreed to actually transfer [TS]

  this app to me just so I could like [TS]

  delete it and reuse the name but the app [TS]

  use iCloud and so we couldn't transfer [TS]

  it [TS]

  what why don't you just the one it just [TS]

  came to rename it i think i somehow we [TS]

  just like I just kind of like we can [TS]

  drop the ball on continuing the [TS]

  conversation so I admire it probably [TS]

  just fell apart [TS]

  just through apathy but like there is an [TS]

  app called overcast it's it's a i [TS]

  believe the seller's name is Willis [TS]

  ingersoll something that it's like a [TS]

  file transfer app for cloud services and [TS]

  the app store like even though the world [TS]

  of trademark allows for the same name to [TS]

  be used in different industries in [TS]

  different contexts the app store doesn't [TS]

  unless you do weird tricks with [TS]

  international titles so it sometimes [TS]

  does but usually doesn't it's like it's [TS]

  a mess [TS]

  it's that section that's so this is like [TS]

  you know the combination of lots of [TS]

  long-standing appstore problems results [TS]

  in this like mediocre situation we have [TS]

  with titles with keywords after them [TS]

  along with you know the new ads not [TS]

  matching things exactly probably yeah [TS]

  it's gonna be interesting [TS]

  uh let's talk about Apple photos and the [TS]

  john sarkissian controller search [TS]

  yeah that was our my quality metric I [TS]

  call the original problem that I have is [TS]

  that i couldn't find a picture of my [TS]

  playstation 4 controller in Apple's [TS]

  photos application this is before iOS 10 [TS]

  before WTC so I put all my photos into [TS]

  google photos and amazingly UFOs was [TS]

  able to find it just made me typing the [TS]

  word controller and of course Apple [TS]

  announced similar foto search for iOS 10 [TS]

  and mac OS Sierra and I speculated on [TS]

  last show that it would not be able to [TS]

  find controller by me typing controller [TS]

  because Apple is not good at the type of [TS]

  thing and Google is so now having [TS]

  installed a actually i haven't installed [TS]

  and many other people have installed i [TS]

  have installed Michael CRP i have [TS]

  installed iOS 10 many other people have [TS]

  installed all these betas onto their [TS]

  iphones because they're very brave [TS]

  people and they have taken my exact [TS]

  pictures of the controller they pull [TS]

  them from Twitter and put them into [TS]

  their photo libraries and down the [TS]

  search receive would find it and it [TS]

  doesn't find if you type controller but [TS]

  because Apple search APIs foto search [TS]

  works a little bit differently or at [TS]

  least present a different UI then Google [TS]

  fotosearch it does find it when you type [TS]

  control stick or I think also gamepad [TS]

  and this brings up the the the UI that [TS]

  arises as you type it shows like [TS]

  category results as if it puts things [TS]

  into buckets and indeed it does kan has [TS]

  a blog post [TS]

  that list out all of the buckets that it [TS]

  has something like 4,000 buckets to put [TS]

  things in there's a lot of stuff in [TS]

  their dance palaces banana chairlifts [TS]

  wait what's a dance palace is seriously [TS]

  i don't know i'm just reading some of [TS]

  the keywords here or kid kiln got killed [TS]

  that's a good one [TS]

  polos blocks pulley trikes trumpets to [TS]

  but bass horn [TS]

  I mean like it's got huge amount of [TS]

  things basically if you type a word that [TS]

  is not one of the words on this list it [TS]

  won't find it so as you type it's [TS]

  showing you the words that begin with [TS]

  their contain these things so it's a [TS]

  little bit different you I was trying to [TS]

  lead you to its notion of those things [TS]

  so if you type control start typing [TS]

  controller and you see control stick [TS]

  you probably tap that one so good job [TS]

  APPL photos so far on finding the [TS]

  controller that I didn't think you would [TS]

  ever find because that's that's good [TS]

  photo recognition because the controller [TS]

  was upside down any searches pretty [TS]

  obscure category on the other hand [TS]

  someone also said that Apple's [TS]

  fotosearch thinks because it couldn't [TS]

  find birthday pics or babies or pictures [TS]

  of a couch so I don't know if they think [TS]

  just had an indexed everything yet or [TS]

  those things aren't among keywords or [TS]

  anything like that but we'll see as this [TS]

  rules out but you can finally your dance [TS]

  palaces if you have pictures of dance [TS]

  palaces it will find that before it will [TS]

  find your couch not quite sure what [TS]

  would come up for dance palace but yeah [TS]

  I'm you know I have my entire photo [TS]

  library in google photos and also my [TS]

  entire photo library and apples photos [TS]

  so when these things release for real i [TS]

  can do a B test right next to each other [TS]

  with the exact same library and do a [TS]

  little break off and when that happens i [TS]

  will definitely have some results but so [TS]

  far so good for Apple it is more [TS]

  impressive than I thought it would be [TS]

  I'm looking up at a dance palaces our [TS]

  first sponsor tonight is fracture go to [TS]

  fracture and check it out with [TS]

  code ATP ten for ten percent off [TS]

  fractures a company that prints photos [TS]

  in vivid color directly onto panes of [TS]

  glass [TS]

  it looks fantastic the colors pop like [TS]

  you won't believe it comes in a nice [TS]

  solid foam backing was ready to mount [TS]

  right out of the package here those [TS]

  works its it looks just like you know [TS]

  complete picture you don't have to frame [TS]

  it [TS]

  you don't have to do anything else to it [TS]

  is a complete picture it is a rectangle [TS]

  or square of glass with your photo [TS]

  printed right behind the front leg [TS]

  of glass and then behind that little [TS]

  little tiny bit of foam board so that [TS]

  you can hang it easily because like them [TS]

  you know things can hook into the foam [TS]

  board that one scratch the glass or the [TS]

  ink layer so it just looks fantastic it [TS]

  looks very modern and clean and I have [TS]

  these all over our house our office [TS]

  they're everywhere people always [TS]

  compliment them they make great gifts [TS]

  they make great keepsakes you can get [TS]

  your photos and actually print them and [TS]

  actually have a physical representation [TS]

  so you can remember this photo for more [TS]

  than like the two days it's in your [TS]

  facebook feed or whatever [TS]

  check it out this prices are very [TS]

  reasonable for fractures start just [TS]

  fifteen dollars for their small square [TS]

  size which is great for Instagram prints [TS]

  and also making a non-square you know [TS]

  rectangles they are awesome again they [TS]

  make fantastic gifts we give them as [TS]

  gifts many times these prints look [TS]

  fantastic from fracture so check it out [TS]

  today at fracture and use code [TS]

  ten percent off with the code ATP 10 i [TS]

  recommend them they're great [TS]

  check out fracture thanks a lot ah [TS]

  alright so some slightly late breaking [TS]

  news before we recorded the Thunderbolt [TS]

  Display the thing that I've been lusting [TS]

  after since sep tember 2011 when it was [TS]

  brand-new which was the last time it was [TS]

  updated anyway even that was a minor [TS]

  update over the LED display that came [TS]

  out right before the fair enough [TS]

  the Thunderbolt Display has been [TS]

  discontinued sad times so at this point [TS]

  Apple does not sell an external display [TS]

  it did have a minor update where they [TS]

  started shipping the magsafe 122 adapter [TS]

  in the box and write something like that [TS]

  so that they never actually gave it the [TS]

  magsafe 2 like natively they just kind [TS]

  of ship through this [TS]

  $8 Democrat the yeah excuse me I believe [TS]

  that adapters $10 thank you very much [TS]

  sorry you're right you're right [TS]

  yeah so this is somewhat sad times if [TS]

  you fancied having a non-retina external [TS]

  display that's very pretty to look at [TS]

  and presumably for non-retina being very [TS]

  very pretty too to see what's on the [TS]

  screen as well however does this make us [TS]

  think that maybe a retina displays [TS]

  coming soon maybe with the GPU built-in [TS]

  I don't know I i would think so but it [TS]

  seems odd to me that they would just [TS]

  continue [TS]

  without having something to replace it [TS]

  and maybe they just don't sell enough of [TS]

  them maybe they can't get that screen [TS]

  from the vendor anymore because it's so [TS]

  terrible because the pixels of the size [TS]

  of bullets i don't know like the apples [TS]

  did you read apples official statement [TS]

  that promotes yeah i was really short [TS]

  wasn't we're gonna go we're just [TS]

  continuing the apple thunderbolt display [TS]

  will be available through [TS]

  apple retail stores not authorized [TS]

  resellers while supplies last [TS]

  there are a number of great third-party [TS]

  options available for Mac users it's [TS]

  kind of surprising that they even gave a [TS]

  statement about it like that they that [TS]

  they call the attention to it at all I [TS]

  mean usually when Apple discontinues a [TS]

  product like you know it's like when [TS]

  it's not very important that you just [TS]

  kind of quietly removed from sale like [TS]

  it's I think it's usually a clear [TS]

  replacement when they do that that's [TS]

  like they remove the old one and as [TS]

  always the new one and this is a little [TS]

  bit weird but they're removing the old [TS]

  one without anyone to replace it and I [TS]

  still put the odds that greater than [TS]

  50-percent that there will be [TS]

  replacement for this product [TS]

  oh yeah because it's such a gimme they [TS]

  have the screen it's in the five um I [TS]

  quit staring at it for a long time you [TS]

  put in a case you know just ship it like [TS]

  but maybe that's not ready yet and maybe [TS]

  it's part of the harbor announcement for [TS]

  whatever reason that it's like I I think [TS]

  I don't think that's a lot of wonderful [TS]

  display so thousand-dollar monitor that [TS]

  is not worth a thousand dollars at this [TS]

  point like arguable you could argue [TS]

  about it when i was first introduced but [TS]

  it is a really nice monitor and back [TS]

  before they were there were no options [TS]

  for 27 dresses when it was introduced in [TS]

  2011 so it was good weather was four [TS]

  thousand dollars who knows but at this [TS]

  point it's definitely not worth thousand [TS]

  dollar so they must not have been [TS]

  selling a lot of them and as they know [TS]

  you know while supplies last they need [TS]

  to get rid of all his inventory maybe it [TS]

  takes this long to get rid of the [TS]

  inventory at the rate that they sell [TS]

  like maybe they have a lot of wonderful [TS]

  displays hanging around and they did the [TS]

  math and said if we want these flushed [TS]

  out of the inventory about time we [TS]

  introduce the 5k external display we [TS]

  need to just continue it now and just [TS]

  let them sell out the rest of them it [TS]

  would also help by the way Apple if you [TS]

  lower the price because that's a way [TS]

  that you can sell things faster break [TS]

  i mean i-i think it's more likely that [TS]

  like you know that the rumors were all [TS]

  really clear and the timing makes a lot [TS]

  of sense that like the the new skylight [TS]

  based macbook pros were supposed to be [TS]

  out by now and I see that they were [TS]

  probably delayed because of various [TS]

  Intel issues like you like it if you [TS]

  heard like it every time you mention [TS]

  skylight and laptops we [TS]

  usually hear from people who tell us [TS]

  that like the that sky like ships that [TS]

  were there would be appropriate for the [TS]

  15-inch were kind of out in the pc world [TS]

  and they actually had tons of problems [TS]

  and like that they were it seemed like [TS]

  intimate like partly may be recalled [TS]

  them or something that was there were [TS]

  some problems with them that that that [TS]

  the manufacturer having even after it [TS]

  shipped so it seems like there's some [TS]

  kind of unexpected Intel delay that [TS]

  caused the macbook pros to most likely [TS]

  be delayed so it seems like if Apple's [TS]

  gonna release a new 5k display would [TS]

  need sky like most likely to drive it so [TS]

  that they were probably planning on [TS]

  releasing the 5k external display that [TS]

  succeeded this thunderbolt display at [TS]

  the same time as new macbook pros that [TS]

  we're all supposed to already be out by [TS]

  now so chances are they'd probably like [TS]

  you know gave the gave the order months [TS]

  ago to like stop taking these component [TS]

  orders stop making these things you know [TS]

  stop manufacturing these and then this [TS]

  delay happened sometime in the meantime [TS]

  this was probably just like the [TS]

  replacement product was supposed to be [TS]

  out by now and it might be done but [TS]

  there's no computer that can drive it [TS]

  yet so they're not going to release a [TS]

  display with no computer that can drive [TS]

  it so they kind of held the display for [TS]

  the macbook pro which got delayed so now [TS]

  they just have well we already told the [TS]

  manufacturing line to stop making these [TS]

  and we're not gonna start back up again [TS]

  because that's crazy so I'm guessing [TS]

  words it is weird hole in the middle of [TS]

  this like you know this visit these [TS]

  weird delays caused this this operations [TS]

  whole to happen and it will make sense [TS]

  in a few months or whatever you know [TS]

  whenever the numerical approach come out [TS]

  and by the way i think the reason [TS]

  they're gonna make this product i was [TS]

  like maybe they're not gonna sell [TS]

  external displays the reason I make it [TS]

  is because the margins have to be pretty [TS]

  darn good [TS]

  oh yeah probably to sell it for the same [TS]

  but you know for the same kind of margin [TS]

  thunderbolt display like that was a [TS]

  thousand-dollar monitor and age when you [TS]

  could get monitors with sometimes [TS]

  monitor the exact same panel in them for [TS]

  less money if you knew the right to know [TS]

  the right weirdly number del thing or [TS]

  whatever to buy like a good healthy [TS]

  margins on those and apple sells mostly [TS]

  laptops for people who by Max and people [TS]

  with laptops often want a really big [TS]

  external display like that they don't [TS]

  want an external display that's like [TS]

  seventeen inches but if people want [TS]

  external display they want a really big [TS]

  one and so Apple should sell you really [TS]

  big [TS]

  because it's you know the same reason [TS]

  cell battery cases for granted a lot of [TS]

  there's this is a product that people [TS]

  want and we can sell it at high margin [TS]

  and they can look nice and Johnny iphone [TS]

  won't be upset by someone connecting a [TS]

  disgusting looking dell monitor to their [TS]

  beautiful macbook pro like all signs [TS]

  point towards Apple continuing to sell [TS]

  one really big really expensive [TS]

  high-margin external monitor and all [TS]

  signs point to me buying one once i can [TS]

  hook it up to a computer [TS]

  we also sponsor this week by hover we go [TS]

  to hover com and use promo code a PFS at [TS]

  checkout nice n % off your friend is [TS]

  perfect timing for ten percent report [TS]

  your first purchase hover is the great [TS]

  is a great place to buy domain names so [TS]

  when you have a great idea for your [TS]

  project or blog or startup whatever you [TS]

  get a great domain name and find that [TS]

  name is very very easy with hover and of [TS]

  course to make it very easy to them by [TS]

  it and manage it and i use her for tons [TS]

  of my domains and it's great they have [TS]

  over 400 remaining extensions to end [TS]

  your domain with you know all the [TS]

  classics like calm dotnet some of the [TS]

  new you know new kind of narrow ones [TS]

  like design and tech and some of the [TS]

  weird kind of jokey ones like that pizza [TS]

  and dot ninja now [TS]

  new this week they just launched dot [TS]

  store and this is one of the rare [TS]

  occasions where there's a name that is [TS]

  straightforward it's not goofy or [TS]

  amateurish like that ninja and pizza you [TS]

  can build a real business on something [TS]

  that ends in dot store this is like this [TS]

  is what a very rare occasion where like [TS]

  brand-new real estate has opened up that [TS]

  ends in a domain extension that is not [TS]

  dumb [TS]

  its okay its wide-open that just opened [TS]

  up so go to hover com go get a dot store [TS]

  name and you have a very very good [TS]

  chance now because it's brand-new of [TS]

  getting a really good one as to whether [TS]

  it's not store any other 400 extensions [TS]

  out there you can find a perfect domain [TS]

  name for your idea and hover go to hover [TS]

  com and use promo code a PFS at checkout [TS]

  book stands for i believe Apple platform [TS]

  filesystem a PFS check out to save ten [TS]

  percent off your first purchase thanks [TS]

  to hover for sponsoring our show [TS]

  John tell us about Apple file system [TS]

  where you get need the platform part [TS]

  from Apple platform filesystem somebody [TS]

  said that I thought I'd heard that as [TS]

  well a lot of people said a lot of [TS]

  things when like is that from official i [TS]

  have not been officially I think it's [TS]

  just for Apple anyway there's a WMD [TS]

  session that is entirely open to the [TS]

  public section 701 we will put a link in [TS]

  the show notes that if you're interested [TS]

  in apple fastest and you can watch this [TS]

  presentation at the time we recorded the [TS]

  wrec episode we had not seen this [TS]

  presentation yet because it was two days [TS]

  in the future and there wasn't much new [TS]

  information in that thing that wasn't [TS]

  already in the state unit but there were [TS]

  two tidbits worth discussing one is [TS]

  right so a PFS as we saw in the state of [TS]

  union is is like it will be a developer [TS]

  preview i think a lot of people are [TS]

  confused by that like okay everything's [TS]

  developer preview right but now when [TS]

  Sierra ships for real like the final [TS]

  version of ships to customers a PFS will [TS]

  be included in Sierra as a developer [TS]

  preview as and you will get the official [TS]

  release version of Sierra and part of it [TS]

  of that product will be provisional [TS]

  developer level support for a PFS so [TS]

  what does that mean for you know our how [TS]

  far in the future is a PFS as they said [TS]

  in the State of the Union a PFS is [TS]

  developer preview this year and coming [TS]

  in 2017 but what does that even mean [TS]

  i slide in Section 701 have these words [TS]

  on it and we'll see how this rolls out a [TS]

  PFS will be the default file system for [TS]

  all apple products in 2017 so that is [TS]

  pretty unequivocal except for the part [TS]

  where it says 2017 so default fastest [TS]

  and profitable product means if you buy [TS]

  an Apple product in you know after [TS]

  whatever this point is it will be [TS]

  formatted with ntfs that includes all [TS]

  iphones all ipads allmax everything like [TS]

  that's the implication of the statement [TS]

  in 2017 could mean anything could be in [TS]

  January for starting january first 2017 [TS]

  it could mean starting to summer 31st [TS]

  2017 there's a big range and when this [TS]

  could happen but it is a player pretty [TS]

  clear statement of intent and a publicly [TS]

  available video from official apple [TS]

  spokespeople that their goal is 20 17 [TS]

  not just that though you'll be able to [TS]

  format is a PFS for the default will [TS]

  still be hfs+ are only on Mac [TS]

  or whatever nope every single product [TS]

  every single device that has a file [TS]

  system across the entire product range [TS]

  at some point this is their goal anyway [TS]

  we'll see if they made it so that seemed [TS]

  to me like an ambitious goal but I'm [TS]

  also kind of excited about it because of [TS]

  a little 2017 is the year the filesystem [TS]

  and I hope they take their time because [TS]

  that's a little bit i'm a little bit [TS]

  scared for them like that means like [TS]

  when the next iPhone comes out or [TS]

  whatever the 2017 iphone all those [TS]

  millions and millions of iphones all [TS]

  going to be picked formatted with ntfs i [TS]

  really hope that goes well you know or I [TS]

  suppose they could say okay well again [TS]

  if they go December 31st 2017 then next [TS]

  year's iphone will ship with hfs+ and [TS]

  then December 31st sergeant all the [TS]

  products will be former that way so in [TS]

  case anyone at Apple anyone who knows [TS]

  any of the Apple filesystem people is [TS]

  listening right now consider that John [TS]

  syracuse your friend of mine has been [TS]

  asking for a new file system for years [TS]

  has been begging for a new file system [TS]

  and as he just said you guys you know [TS]

  Apple is said in 2017 i would just like [TS]

  to point out that John Sarah's key stop [TS]

  John circus birthday happens to be the [TS]

  very last day of 2017 if you just [TS]

  decided but you know maybe maybe that [TS]

  would be the appropriate day to flip the [TS]

  switch and hit the big red button that [TS]

  would be a pretty solid birthday present [TS]

  a much better present I've ever gotten [TS]

  John just throwing it out there guys you [TS]

  run with it [TS]

  yeah I think they're gonna go before [TS]

  that and my impression is that this date [TS]

  even though it seems ambitious to us is [TS]

  not really that ambitious from the [TS]

  perspective of Apple who has been [TS]

  working on the sauces for a long time [TS]

  obviously like they didn't just [TS]

  announced that they started working at [TS]

  last week right so the impression I get [TS]

  from WTC is that 2017 is not rushing it [TS]

  and they really got the whole year it's [TS]

  like you know it's a relaxing expanse of [TS]

  time in which they can plan their roll [TS]

  out of this new files and I really hope [TS]

  that's true because if so that's exactly [TS]

  how you want to do this the second [TS]

  tidbit that was in this WC session which [TS]

  i'm sure everyone knows by now it's [TS]

  about all the Apple news sites is the [TS]

  question of if you don't buy a new piece [TS]

  of hardware and [TS]

  which comes with a PFS that but you have [TS]

  an existing piece of hardware [TS]

  how do you get a PFS like I can only [TS]

  think about the perspective of a Mac [TS]

  because i don't imagine they're going to [TS]

  let people like a reformat their iphones [TS]

  like if you restore your iphone in 2017 [TS]

  in the post a PFS world is reformatted [TS]

  with a PFS i doubt it but certainly for [TS]

  the mac we know this is a [TS]

  straightforward situation the way you [TS]

  could do it is you backup your entire [TS]

  hard drive your race it you reformat it [TS]

  is a PFS and you restore your hard drive [TS]

  on you can do a time machine go to a [TS]

  super-duper is lots of different [TS]

  solutions to doing this all those should [TS]

  be possible but in the 701 presentation [TS]

  wdc apple said that I have something [TS]

  else in mind and that is in place [TS]

  conversion of your volume format from [TS]

  hfs+ to a PFS so you've got a mac this [TS]

  file system comes out in 2017 it's [TS]

  officially released all the new hardware [TS]

  you by comes with that you're like I [TS]

  want to try the new files and what do i [TS]

  do well first of all i would advise you [TS]

  to make a backup anyway and maybe two [TS]

  backups and maybe three backups but you [TS]

  won't have to erase your disc you'll be [TS]

  able to take your existing disc is [TS]

  formatted with hfs+ and do a thing and [TS]

  reboot and when it comes back it all [TS]

  your data will still be there you won't [TS]

  have erased it and it will be in a PFS [TS]

  volume and the the concept of this is [TS]

  freaking people i think i talked about [TS]

  the old al soft plus maker thing that [TS]

  would do the same conversion for from HS [TS]

  hfs+ in place and it was terrifying [TS]

  because it's screwed up in the middle [TS]

  you are left with nothing [TS]

  this is the situation with ApS is a [TS]

  little bit different and you shouldn't [TS]

  actually be as terrified as you are [TS]

  it actually is it if you've ever seen [TS]

  from I don't know what some ATP or maybe [TS]

  use hypercritical the btrfs demo of a [TS]

  similar type of in place conversion new [TS]

  it's the same type of deal because of [TS]

  the way this volume format works it's [TS]

  actually fairly safe so here's here's [TS]

  the process and here's why it will not [TS]

  probably destroy your data although [TS]

  definitely making backups [TS]

  so the first thing is going to do is [TS]

  going to unmount your volume so [TS]

  obviously you can't be booted from your [TS]

  volume to reformat the boot of the [TS]

  recovery partition or something like [TS]

  that or what [TS]

  but everyone sits unmounted no more [TS]

  changes are happening to this volume [TS]

  you're going to convert so you don't [TS]

  have to worry about chasing after some [TS]

  other changes that's not gonna happen [TS]

  live like the one called filevault [TS]

  conversion where you can encrypt ask why [TS]

  using which is kind of magical this is [TS]

  like unmounted alright next thing is [TS]

  it's going to write all the a PFS [TS]

  metadata structures all the little [TS]

  pointers to wear this file begin where [TS]

  is the den how many blocks are in it of [TS]

  what is the file call but all the dates [TS]

  about the files going to write all that [TS]

  metadata to the free space on the HFS [TS]

  plus volume so you can only do this [TS]

  conversion if you have enough free space [TS]

  to fit the metadata I don't know how [TS]

  much it's gonna take but you do need [TS]

  some free space and hopefully hear it [TS]

  just isn't filled to the brim anyway so [TS]

  it's writing just to the to the free [TS]

  area so at any point during this process [TS]

  when it's writing always meditating when [TS]

  it's it's reading your hfs+ volume [TS]

  finding out where everything is what [TS]

  everything is called with all the dates [TS]

  are all permissions are all the [TS]

  ownership all everything about these [TS]

  files all the different for call the [TS]

  extended afterwards all that stuff and [TS]

  it's writing that metadata doubt in a [TS]

  PFS format to the free space if at any [TS]

  time something bad happens during this [TS]

  like someone yanked the plug in your [TS]

  computer your hfs+ volume is fine [TS]

  because if you reboot into it it doesn't [TS]

  care what's in the free space like this [TS]

  garbage in the free space it's free [TS]

  space on hfs+ I'm nothing is wrong with [TS]

  it is perfectly fine [TS]

  this is the majority of the time it [TS]

  spends is looking at all your things in [TS]

  writing all the metadata for all the [TS]

  things on your file system when it's [TS]

  finally finished doing that all it needs [TS]

  to do is this is one of the critical [TS]

  section when things go wrong and the [TS]

  critical section should be very very [TS]

  short it's basically delete the HFS plus [TS]

  superblock update the position type to [TS]

  be a PFS put the correct uuid in there [TS]

  and you're done [TS]

  like you just have to do a switcheroo in [TS]

  the front of the whole file systems ok [TS]

  now you're not HFS anymore [TS]

  now you're a PFS and then you reboot and [TS]

  that critical section when something can [TS]

  go wrong like they're halfway through i [TS]

  bet even that probably is fairly well [TS]

  protected because i know i guess once [TS]

  you delete the eventual hfs+ abroad kind [TS]

  of scared but anyway this is a very [TS]

  small window of time and something can [TS]

  go wrong all the rest of time during the [TS]

  conversion everything is fine and I bet [TS]

  you could probably restore the HS plus [TS]

  superblock if you were clever enough for [TS]

  some recovery program could do that as [TS]

  well because again you haven't touched [TS]

  any of the actual data your actual files [TS]

  have not been modified hfs+ metadata is [TS]

  not been modified none of that stuff has [TS]

  changed sitting exact [TS]

  where it was all you gotta do is change [TS]

  sort of that the thing that tells you [TS]

  where everything else in the file system [TS]

  is the superblock is metadata about the [TS]

  whole file system that tells it you know [TS]

  how big the file system is and where all [TS]

  the other metadata structures aren't all [TS]

  that stuff and by the way speaking of [TS]

  the apsu idea the thing that tells it [TS]

  like what volume type this is one other [TS]

  tidbits that was sort of alluded to in [TS]

  state of the union and I think in the [TS]

  seventh one thing is that if you have an [TS]

  aps IPS volume and you try to mount it [TS]

  on [TS]

  unlike an older Mac operating system [TS]

  it'll say this disc is unreadable you [TS]

  want to initialize it all that business [TS]

  but if you try to do that on El Capitan [TS]

  it won't do that [TS]

  not because I can't have Secret support [TS]

  maybe FS but just because it know it [TS]

  recognizes the uuid so won't offer to [TS]

  erase it for you and that's I guess to [TS]

  try to prevent people from accidentally [TS]

  erasing their newly converted disk when [TS]

  they don't realize that prompt asking [TS]

  them to erase it was actually asking [TS]

  them to erase the disc latest converted [TS]

  so that's that's kind of clever and [TS]

  that's another secret thing you would [TS]

  never have known of you you're not going [TS]

  to be searching the el capitan binaries [TS]

  for a uuid because you never find it [TS]

  because it's all nonsense but anyway I [TS]

  assume that I will do this in place [TS]

  conversion again after making many many [TS]

  backups but both in theory and practice [TS]

  this conversion method of writing new [TS]

  metadata structures to free space [TS]

  pointing at the data in where it already [TS]

  exists is fairly well-established not [TS]

  something crazy that we came up with its [TS]

  own and so I'm pretty confident that [TS]

  this will actually work and it will seem [TS]

  like magic [TS]

  that's pretty high praise I am very [TS]

  impressed [TS]

  why is it have the P in the name [TS]

  why not AFS oh yeah so that's a question [TS]

  I asked some of the filesystem people [TS]

  WBC and it says we speculate like we [TS]

  can't use AFS because that's already [TS]

  Andrew filesystem and you go through [TS]

  every letter in the alphabet a lot of [TS]

  them were taken already [TS]

  every combination of two letters either [TS]

  taken or nonsensical a PFS is not great [TS]

  as an acronym but it's probably better [TS]

  than AFS it's probably better than ifs [TS]

  which i think is also already taken lots [TS]

  of cool letters like CFS and XFS are [TS]

  already taken my complaint was why isn't [TS]

  it a cool name why isn't it like forget [TS]

  about the four-letter actor [TS]

  I'm gonna give it whatever four-letter [TS]

  three or four little letter you know [TS]

  abbreviation that you want [TS]

  why isn't it have a cool name like I [TS]

  don't know like thunder FS swiftor you [TS]

  know grand central dispatch or whatever [TS]

  like with the trains yeah like you come [TS]

  up with a cool marketing name for it and [TS]

  the upshot seems to be that file systems [TS]

  are not something that most users know [TS]

  about certainly on iphones no one knows [TS]

  what the file system isn't even imax [TS]

  people don't know the only time people [TS]

  are likely to encounter is if you're on [TS]

  a Mac and you go to disk utility or [TS]

  something you're trying to format in [TS]

  your disk or like you get info on it is [TS]

  can you seem to get info window but [TS]

  especially when you format your desk [TS]

  says I know how do you want to what [TS]

  volume format you want to use for this [TS]

  disc and disk utility I think and do a [TS]

  bunch of different formats or even you [TS]

  know that OS 10 can I was ten whatever [TS]

  that operating system is called ya Mac [TS]

  OS can mount a lot of the things you [TS]

  come out like fat TX pad and like all [TS]

  these weird need all the all the weird [TS]

  CD file systems and stuff sometimes if [TS]

  you present the user with this popup [TS]

  menu of like who are you know what [TS]

  volume for what you want to make this or [TS]

  what going forward is this they don't [TS]

  know what all those things mean they [TS]

  don't know what hfs+ means they don't [TS]

  know what Apple extended journaled [TS]

  whatever case they don't know what those [TS]

  things being at all so they go the whole [TS]

  of a PFS and it's a reasonable goal is [TS]

  to put an entry on that list that is [TS]

  absolutely clear that that's the one [TS]

  that they want and and so if you have a [TS]

  pop-up menu and your formatting a disk [TS]

  and you don't know what the hell you [TS]

  want to pick and you see one called [TS]

  apple file system you can pick that one [TS]

  was like all right this is an apple I [TS]

  see a logo in front of me there's one on [TS]

  the corner of the screen [TS]

  I guess I want Apple filesystem and you [TS]

  know what that'll be the right answer [TS]

  you do want Apple filesystem you do not [TS]

  want you know Apple extended journaled [TS]

  whatever you want Apple file system so [TS]

  as boring as it maybe it makes sense [TS]

  from a user perspective that a user [TS]

  should never have to see this would be [TS]

  when they do see if they have no idea [TS]

  what all those weird names mean they [TS]

  just want to pick them on this Apple [TS]

  sauces but don't you think there might [TS]

  be like a problem well that one has a [TS]

  plus [TS]

  this one sounds deluxe like it the more [TS]

  words like it sound like that's the [TS]

  deluxe cool option i guess maybe I want [TS]

  the what it whatever journaling means [TS]

  that's like journaling that's the [TS]

  presence of the prosumer problem that [TS]

  maybe those people you know their own [TS]

  worst enemy but regular people are just [TS]

  gonna pick the safest one they're not [TS]

  gonna say maybe I don't know what [TS]

  journal mean but I want to maybe better [TS]

  what about extended that's better what [TS]

  about exfat I like balances gotta XCX [TS]

  and I think they're just gonna pick [TS]

  apple blossom anyway it's a boring name [TS]

  but it's certainly a straightforward [TS]

  name and it is a forward-looking name in [TS]

  that Apple feels like yes this is the [TS]

  Apple file system now 30 years from now [TS]

  on this is old and busted they might [TS]

  have a problem because what he called [TS]

  the next one but for now Apple file [TS]

  system works and because they can't use [TS]

  a FS a PFS is the awkward abbreviation [TS]

  for Apple filesystem honest question do [TS]

  you honestly think that when this file [TS]

  system is outdated [TS]

  we will still even have the option to [TS]

  format our own partitions they look at [TS]

  iOS iOS just give us any options you're [TS]

  still going to have to read the aps best [TS]

  formatted volumes I don't know you the [TS]

  question is whether the mac will still [TS]

  be around them because you don't have [TS]

  you don't see volumes on iPads and apple [TS]

  TV or the watch or iPhones so we'll see [TS]

  but maybe they're out i mean at this [TS]

  point I think we're lucky that we even [TS]

  still have disk utility I mean barely [TS]

  but i think we get we get all I I'd be [TS]

  surprised if if we still have the [TS]

  ability to format disk the way we want [TS]

  to in front position we want to you know [TS]

  in even 10 years [TS]

  yeah well it could be if the file system [TS]

  continues to to be pushed towards the [TS]

  geeky side of things then they're free [TS]

  to do whatever they want like sort of [TS]

  like it [TS]

  grand central dispatch is the marketing [TS]

  name but live dispatch is the library [TS]

  name on disk it's just a clear [TS]

  separation between the names they [TS]

  present in the marketing and the actual [TS]

  names the programmers know them by so [TS]

  may become less important [TS]

  finally when it in 30 years when this [TS]

  opera windows file system is outdated [TS]

  and being replaced by the next file [TS]

  system can we get together when you are [TS]

  like what 7271 at that point and and do [TS]

  a podcast then with with development by [TS]

  then I plan to build my kingdom [TS]

  patagonia some [TS]

  oh they have been they will probably [TS]

  have the internet there and microphones [TS]

  will probably still exists [TS]

  I like throwing yet another reference [TS]

  you guys don't get I knew that if anyone [TS]

  have to know as a reference but I also [TS]

  knew I did not get it [TS]

  partial credit yeah I'll take it alright [TS]

  do you want to start running through [TS]

  some of the features do you want me to [TS]

  prompt this how would you like to [TS]

  proceed sir on this part i'm going to [TS]

  talk a little bit about file names but i [TS]

  thought this would be a good opportunity [TS]

  to find out how much you guys know about [TS]

  unicode not nearly enough i've read the [TS]

  God whose at the school ski getting on [TS]

  unicode string handling and I and I've [TS]

  already forgotten all of it that you [TS]

  Marco you come across this at all you [TS]

  probably don't because i'm a string [TS]

  takes care of it for you and you don't [TS]

  even care what the internal [TS]

  representation as you know what about in [TS]

  PHP land you deal with and stuff when [TS]

  you do web things dealing with the [TS]

  Unicode and text and everything I know a [TS]

  lot about unicode yes [TS]

  alright well so this will be new casing [TS]

  may be new to some people but I think we [TS]

  have to go over a little bit of the [TS]

  basics before explain what the deal is [TS]

  whatever talk about this in context of a [TS]

  PFS because because files have names and [TS]

  your directories have names right so [TS]

  when you talk about a file path which [TS]

  uses and shop and Mac operating system [TS]

  whereby cells that entire thing is [TS]

  presented as a string and certainly [TS]

  filenames represented in strings and you [TS]

  would think this is a straightforward [TS]

  thing like that nobody thinks about all [TS]

  of course like files have names like [TS]

  that's fine but names are strings and [TS]

  strings are fiendishly complicated and [TS]

  actually matters from the perspective of [TS]

  the file system because it has to do a [TS]

  lot of stuff with strings so the i guess [TS]

  the easiest way for people to understand [TS]

  this is that unicode is a is a standard [TS]

  for defining all the different things [TS]

  that go into making a string and things [TS]

  in unicode identified by code points [TS]

  that have numbers and this the numbers [TS]

  go up really high [TS]

  alright they start start long up really [TS]

  really high guy says lots and lots of [TS]

  things that you can put into strings and [TS]

  languages in the United States and the [TS]

  other thing to understand is that when [TS]

  you write something out to disk or [TS]

  stored in memory or whatever we tend to [TS]

  break things up in two bites and [TS]

  we have a day lettering system in [TS]

  america and the sort of Western world [TS]

  called a ski that defined a very small [TS]

  number of numbers that correspond to [TS]

  things that can be in a string and it [TS]

  each one of them fit into a single bite [TS]

  so all you know a through z 1 through [TS]

  zero through nine all the punctuation [TS]

  characters or whatever they all fit into [TS]

  one bites is 255 possible combinations [TS]

  and everybody was happy to realize that [TS]

  there are other characters and other [TS]

  languages they didn't fit right [TS]

  so when I came up with unicode they [TS]

  tried to be nice and give a ski all the [TS]

  same numbers that it always had for [TS]

  compatibility reasons but they just keep [TS]

  going from there and a certain point you [TS]

  get up two numbers unicode code points [TS]

  that are way higher than 255 and when it [TS]

  comes time for you to write them to disk [TS]

  what do you do with those you can't just [TS]

  write them out as the big numbers in a [TS]

  series of bytes because the first bite [TS]

  of the number might look like a cat [TS]

  of the number might look like a cat [TS]

  put a letter P or something right [TS]

  because it's the same you know what i [TS]

  mean so they have come up with a series [TS]

  of encoding systems where when you got [TS]

  this big number that does not fit into a [TS]

  single bite and you can't right the way [TS]

  you would write that number out of [TS]

  sequence of bytes we need some way to [TS]

  encode these things one of the ways to [TS]

  encode is instead of writing one code [TS]

  point every bite right one co point [TS]

  every 32 bits you have a huge space for [TS]

  each one's your capital letter A instead [TS]

  of taking up a single bite takes up what [TS]

  is 32 4 bytes it bites [TS]

  yeah it bites for but ya gotta go fa x 4 [TS]

  i'll get in a second anyway but that [TS]

  would be incredibly wasteful because now [TS]

  all of a sudden if you're writing [TS]

  something an ascii text it would take up [TS]

  four times as much room that's not good [TS]

  right [TS]

  there's also we could do it in 16 can be [TS]

  doing 16 well we actually have more [TS]

  unicode code points that fit into 16 [TS]

  bits but I think for a while maybe they [TS]

  all fit in I think I string uses this [TS]

  encoding called utf-16 internally [TS]

  yeah i believe i believe the very first [TS]

  version of unicode what that they did [TS]

  all fit in and then you know once we [TS]

  started realizing oh there's other parts [TS]

  of the world and like ancient scripts [TS]

  and different combining things and [TS]

  there's all sorts of new stuff now don't [TS]

  forget emoji yet that all came later [TS]

  yeah but it's important [TS]

  yeah that's not great either but it also [TS]

  takes a lot of room and the one that's [TS]

  been most common use these days is [TS]

  called utf-8 which is a pretty clever [TS]

  encoding scheme where a ski gets to be [TS]

  exactly the way it normally is like so [TS]

  you know one bite one bite for each [TS]

  character and all the ones that are [TS]

  bigger they have these unique sequences [TS]

  of multiple bites you can I want you [TS]

  know two bites three bites four bytes [TS]

  that even up to five bites all these are [TS]

  so that all the leading bites are not [TS]

  are not mistaken for plain old ascii [TS]

  characters or whatever and that's the [TS]

  most common encoding use and this is [TS]

  relevant because when you create a file [TS]

  in first of all people don't want to use [TS]

  a file system where you can only create [TS]

  problems and is key because that would [TS]

  be annoying for people who speak [TS]

  languages other than English and even [TS]

  annoying for English speakers because he [TS]

  had curly quotes and stuff but you need [TS]

  to write this you need to have the stuff [TS]

  in memory and you needed to write it out [TS]

  to disk so you need some sort of [TS]

  representation and that's exactly what [TS]

  encoding is doing unicode as they take [TS]

  these unicode code points these big [TS]

  numbers possibly very large numbers and [TS]

  write them out in a series of bytes in a [TS]

  way according to some standard right the [TS]

  additional complication here in unicode [TS]

  is that unicode code points [TS]

  I've been trying to save this and trying [TS]

  to say thing in other words instead of [TS]

  saying character or letter because it's [TS]

  way more complicated than that so a [TS]

  unicode component might be like the [TS]

  capital letter A and that's something [TS]

  that everyone understands but a unicode [TS]

  code point might also be something [TS]

  called combining acute accent that when [TS]

  this unicode point follows another [TS]

  letter [TS]

  it combines to make what looks like one [TS]

  thing on your screen so if you did the [TS]

  lowercase letter e plain old ascii [TS]

  lowercase letter e followed by unicode [TS]

  code point 301 which by the way is a [TS]

  number bigger than 255 called combining [TS]

  an acute accent you would get the e with [TS]

  little line pointing up into the right [TS]

  on top of it the acute accent so you can [TS]

  write the word cafe CAF e combining [TS]

  acute accent you get the word cafe with [TS]

  the e with the little thing over it [TS]

  right but you can write that same thing [TS]

  cafe CAF and then he was a little thing [TS]

  over in a different way you write CAF [TS]

  just like a ski and then you can include [TS]

  unicode code point e9 that's an index [TS]

  latin small letter e with a cute you [TS]

  look at another Road you know has two [TS]

  ways for you to write something looks [TS]

  the same on the page and i'm not sure [TS]

  what the original motivation so it's [TS]

  probably because you could use combining [TS]

  characters and more flexible ways [TS]

  including every possible combination but [TS]

  sometimes combinations our community to [TS]

  include this this comes with this adds [TS]

  yet another wrinkle which is you can [TS]

  write the same thing in unicode in [TS]

  multiple different sequences of code [TS]

  points that's a problem for something [TS]

  like filesystem it's not a problem for [TS]

  like if you're if you're writing a [TS]

  report or printing a page or even making [TS]

  a webpage but it's a problem for file [TS]

  system so we just found something to [TS]

  write file names out to disk like to [TS]

  store them in the metadata somewhere and [TS]

  in general filesystems don't want you to [TS]

  be able to have a file with the [TS]

  quote-unquote same name in the same [TS]

  place ignoring filename extensions which [TS]

  just make this mess but if you want to [TS]

  make a file called cafe and then you [TS]

  want to make another file called cafe [TS]

  you wouldn't want them both to [TS]

  the existing in the same folder staring [TS]

  you in the face like how can these files [TS]

  via they both have the same exact name [TS]

  but if you were to merely write out the [TS]

  encoded bites for this thing whether [TS]

  it's utf-32 utf-8 utf-16 whatever [TS]

  encoding format awesome chooses if you [TS]

  just write them out at like that one [TS]

  application could make CAF latin small [TS]

  battery with a cute and one application [TS]

  can make CFE combining acute accent as [TS]

  far as the possum is concerned the [TS]

  sequence of bytes of these files is [TS]

  different so when it dips them it's an [TS]

  open the file with this name i'll just [TS]

  make this file but when you open the [TS]

  folder you can see two files called cafe [TS]

  and that is bad and i haven't even got [TS]

  into case sensitivity because you can [TS]

  see in case in case sensitivity [TS]

  case-insensitive situation they have the [TS]

  fastest has the same problem is they're [TS]

  already a file with this name yes or no [TS]

  and that's where you would factor in [TS]

  okay well as their file with this name [TS]

  but like the capitalized letters [TS]

  lowercase you know ignoring case but [TS]

  ignoring that entirely just for plain [TS]

  old case sensitive whatever this [TS]

  multiple ways you can write the same [TS]

  word and unicode handles that by a [TS]

  system that calls for a normalization [TS]

  different normalized forms of unicode as [TS]

  a bunch of different forms will link to [TS]

  them in the show note what basically [TS]

  comes down to is should we try to break [TS]

  apart every character into its smallest [TS]

  possible pieces decompose them you want [TS]

  to have the lowercase C and then they'd [TS]

  be combining accent or should we pride [TS]

  try to compose them all into their [TS]

  canonical form by squishing the e with [TS]

  the combining accent into the latin [TS]

  small letter e with the cute or should [TS]

  we do different combinations of them in [TS]

  different orders whole bunch of [TS]

  different normalized forms the file [TS]

  system if it wants to [TS]

  well i was gonna say the processing has [TS]

  to pick one of these but it doesn't it [TS]

  could it could just the you know do what [TS]

  I said in the NCAA i will accept [TS]

  whatever bites you give me and I have no [TS]

  idea what they mean [TS]

  now just put them in the file system or [TS]

  it could pick one of these normalized [TS]

  forms you pick a normalized form then it [TS]

  doesn't matter what the application [TS]

  gives you it will always be canonicalize [TS]

  when it goes to the file system so this [TS]

  is what hfs+ does but of course hfs+ [TS]

  being a very old tile system does not [TS]

  use any of the unicode normalized forms [TS]

  it uses a variant of those normalized [TS]

  form that has changed in different [TS]

  versions of the operating system if you [TS]

  look at a tech note 1150 from apple [TS]

  which apparently is not no longer online [TS]

  so we'll link to like another very [TS]

  love it it uses kind of decomposed form [TS]

  except for a whole bunch of Rangers that [TS]

  it changes to be compatible like the mac [TS]

  Greek encoding and it excludes a bunch [TS]

  of things that it's really really [TS]

  confusing but anyway hfs+ if you try to [TS]

  make two files called cafe and I wrote [TS]

  of course a little prescrip to test this [TS]

  out and you try these two different ways [TS]

  to do it [TS]

  the with a combining accent and then the [TS]

  e with a little hat already combined [TS]

  doesn't matter what you write the over [TS]

  the age of fossils like oh yeah I [TS]

  totally made that file for you but when [TS]

  you read that file back in and look at [TS]

  the file name it will have changed it to [TS]

  the the normalized form the HFS plus 1 [TS]

  so you will not make two separate files [TS]

  if you try to make one file with that 11 [TS]

  name one follows the other name you will [TS]

  just override the same file twice you [TS]

  that like hfs+ does not take your [TS]

  filename for what it is it does [TS]

  something to eat first or rather the [TS]

  driver for us plus those to be compliant [TS]

  with the filesystem right this is one of [TS]

  the reasons that a lot of units marriage [TS]

  stuff and i think last torvalds had a [TS]

  big rant about it but I couldn't find on [TS]

  the internet have complained about hfs+ [TS]

  I gave you the file name is it supposed [TS]

  to be this and you said no i totally [TS]

  made that file for you and then later [TS]

  when i try to read that final look at [TS]

  its name it's not what I told you [TS]

  and that's bad for things like get or [TS]

  you know linux for that matter other [TS]

  things the old files they don't expect [TS]

  that to happen that the the sort of [TS]

  unique style approaches here's a [TS]

  sequence of bytes that makes up this [TS]

  files named make that file and then [TS]

  later when i read that file I'm going to [TS]

  look at its name and better be that and [TS]

  a better look it up with that name and [TS]

  the name that comes on the disk better [TS]

  with the bites i gave you and your dog [TS]

  doesn't your father is broken but as I [TS]

  hopefully explain if you do that it's [TS]

  very easy for applications to make names [TS]

  that look exactly the same in the user [TS]

  interface cafe & cafe like they're [TS]

  indistinguishable they're exactly the [TS]

  same pixel for pixel because you can't [TS]

  see the bites that make up the unicode [TS]

  string you shouldn't care about them and [TS]

  to users to be able to make the same [TS]

  file with the same name with apparently [TS]

  the same name that seems like a bug [TS]

  seems like something should happen which [TS]

  cafe file is the one that I want they [TS]

  both have the same name I don't know [TS]

  so you can't do that and that's why [TS]

  apple doesn't do that a PFS now has to [TS]

  make some decisions about this [TS]

  what should a PFS do filename should do [TS]

  it the HFS plus way exactly [TS]

  but not because that's got years and [TS]

  years of baggage floating around in it [TS]

  from the fact that existed before [TS]

  unicode I think you're leaving or maybe [TS]

  just came out when you recover was very [TS]

  young I think hfs+ hsps unicode but not [TS]

  hfs+ anyway doing what a dress plus does [TS]

  would be best for compatibility but it [TS]

  would also be slightly crazy i don't [TS]

  think Apple wants to maintain their [TS]

  weird mapping tables forever with their [TS]

  different uh you know non-standard [TS]

  normalize forms should it do what many [TS]

  linux file systems do many other [TS]

  processes do which is I take no position [TS]

  on file names that's not my concern you [TS]

  gave me a sequence of bytes and that's [TS]

  the file name i will write that out of [TS]

  the filesystem later when you read it [TS]

  you will get back that sequence of bytes [TS]

  I don't know what sequence of bytes [TS]

  means could mean anything i have no idea [TS]

  what that stuff is but anyway here's [TS]

  what you said [TS]

  my understanding is that that's what a [TS]

  PFS does today so if you run my little [TS]

  prescription a PFS you can make two [TS]

  files that apparently are both named [TS]

  cafe but they're actually different [TS]

  sequences of bytes because one uses the [TS]

  combining acute accent the other one [TS]

  uses the eve with a little accident he [TS]

  composed on it and by the way i think i [TS]

  think it might be no anyway when you if [TS]

  you were to do this when i did in perl i [TS]

  had to choose how to encode the filename [TS]

  and I chose utf-8 I think you can't the [TS]

  the API well i'm using / also has [TS]

  different rules about that but the [TS]

  bottom line is when you [TS]

  somebody has to pick the bite [TS]

  representation all right you can't give [TS]

  it a sequence of bytes for your string [TS]

  and use unicode code pointy nine or [TS]

  unicode code point 301 because they [TS]

  don't fit in a bite so you have to [TS]

  figure out a way to put them in a bite [TS]

  and that's what unicode encoding czar [TS]

  and so I picked utf-8 if I'd given at [TS]

  utf-16 i'm assuming you have stored [TS]

  utf-16 and give me back utf-16 and so on [TS]

  for all the other different coding think [TS]

  so far as i can tell a PFS is a bag of [TS]

  bytes that means its case sensitive [TS]

  because bag of bytes means you gave me [TS]

  these bites here these bites and so [TS]

  another file comes along and wants to [TS]

  write cafe with a lowercase C instead of [TS]

  a capital C 2 different sequence of [TS]

  bytes file system says no profile that [TS]

  name here you go [TS]

  I think this will i don't know i don't [TS]

  think this is the official position [TS]

  because ApS is not done [TS]

  you can't even boot from it right now [TS]

  it's obviously not finished [TS]

  this is going to be looking for in the [TS]

  coming mom [TS]

  it's and the rest 2017 what will be the [TS]

  policy and a PFS will they add case and [TS]

  sensitivity once you decide that case [TS]

  insensitivity you have to make some [TS]

  decisions at the very least you have to [TS]

  make decisions about encoding because [TS]

  you can't compare case into things like [TS]

  someone writes 15 min utf-16 and one [TS]

  following utf-8 something in the in the [TS]

  system has to understand that you can't [TS]

  do complete comparisons with strings [TS]

  encoded in different ways or maybe you [TS]

  just straightforwardly compared as if I [TS]

  know it doesn't make sense it makes [TS]

  comparisons you have to have an [TS]

  awareness of the encode right so if they [TS]

  ever want to make a case insensitive [TS]

  version of a PFS they need to decide [TS]

  here's how file names are encoded and [TS]

  then beyond that they have to make a [TS]

  decision about normalization do we do [TS]

  normalization at all if you don't do [TS]

  normalization you can get into these [TS]

  weird situations where you have files [TS]

  with apparently the same name you could [TS]

  handle this all at the framework level [TS]

  and little cocoa and all and you know [TS]

  whatever higher-level framework you like [TS]

  it so on and so forth [TS]

  I don't know if that's something that [TS]

  will do and it's not i think this is not [TS]

  a minor decision because what you decide [TS]

  to do here has implications that ripple [TS]

  down through history as we saw with the [TS]

  HFS plus 1 after you make his decision [TS]

  it's not easy to change it i suppose you [TS]

  could go with case-sensitive now a new [TS]

  case insensitive later but kinda like [TS]

  the opposite of what HFS did going with [TS]

  case-insensitive from the beginning and [TS]

  making a sensitive variant but anyway [TS]

  this I think is one of to me the most [TS]

  important decisions that has not yet [TS]

  been made for a PFS and I since it will [TS]

  probably happen before next year's wrec [TS]

  the only way we'll be able to tell [TS]

  whether it's made is looking at the a [TS]

  PFS documentation online and continuing [TS]

  to run tiny test programs from languages [TS]

  other than apples frameworks to see what [TS]

  does the file system except I don't know [TS]

  what the rights that this position I [TS]

  don't have a particular position here [TS]

  only I just want them to make a decision [TS]

  and for it to be a reasonable one and [TS]

  that's what I was about to ask is that [TS]

  you don't necessarily have a preference [TS]

  between normalised and not normalized [TS]

  you just want to see that there is a a [TS]

  declared statement as to how it's going [TS]

  to work [TS]

  yeah and like a philosophical some sort [TS]

  of philosophical statement of support [TS]

  because in many respects making the file [TS]

  system itself just be bag of bytes which [TS]

  is you gave me by store them is very [TS]

  straightforward is the easiest to test [TS]

  it is the simplest it's the fastest you [TS]

  can do really fast comparisons with it [TS]

  it's everything you want from a [TS]

  performance perspective of all if you [TS]

  were like say on the filesystem team and [TS]

  you want to make it really fast file [TS]

  system but from a user's perspective it [TS]

  doesn't doesn't solve your problems it [TS]

  doesn't solve user problems that hfs+ [TS]

  does i don't know if you can solve it [TS]

  all at the framework level I'm have to [TS]

  think that you can't really at the [TS]

  framework level entirely because i don't [TS]

  like there's so many different ways in [TS]

  so many different programs that can [TS]

  write files to disc and not all of them [TS]

  go through your frameworks alright I in [TS]

  its it's madness to have fought some [TS]

  filenames utf-16 some vile names utf8 [TS]

  some normalized some did normalize some [TS]

  weird mix I that seems untenable to me [TS]

  from just the basic perspective of how [TS]

  do i correctly check whether a file [TS]

  exists the filename blah how do i check [TS]

  whether that exists it's like well how [TS]

  many different ways can you write this [TS]

  kit you know the only way i can check [TS]

  with this because the processing knows [TS]

  nothing about encoding I say hey process [TS]

  and you have a filename cafe and the [TS]

  process was like all right well what [TS]

  sequence of bytes you want me to check [TS]

  for nope I don't have one that sequence [TS]

  of bytes maybe think is there another [TS]

  way that I cafe get right in utf-32 with [TS]

  a combining accent you have this [TS]

  sequence of bytes the files inside nope [TS]

  don't have that sequence of bytes in the [TS]

  applications like hmm maybe didn't [TS]

  utf-16 with latin small letter with a [TS]

  cute on it like that that's untenable [TS]

  right and so as scary as it is for the [TS]

  file system to make decisions about this [TS]

  because they're just they're very [TS]

  difficult to to change after the fact if [TS]

  it doesn't then every file system API [TS]

  needs to either be incredibly thorough [TS]

  or put make it so that you can [TS]

  potentially create files with apparently [TS]

  the same name from the users perspective [TS]

  and I think that's not healthy either so [TS]

  I don't know it could be that we don't [TS]

  care about any guys except for the cocoa [TS]

  ones we don't care what people going [TS]

  straight through the capi is running [TS]

  python scripts or whatever we're doing [TS]

  all we care about is that is the things [TS]

  that go through [TS]

  get and UI kit and then you could have a [TS]

  bag of bytes [TS]

  I don't know but but I i can hear [TS]

  arguments on either side of it but the [TS]

  fact that nothing has been said so far [TS]

  in the fact that it just does Bagga [TS]

  bites now doesn't really tell me [TS]

  anything about that was essentially [TS]

  position just tells me they didn't get [TS]

  to that part yet because i think if they [TS]

  if they had got to it would have been in [TS]

  that presentation like the presentations [TS]

  for developers to say [TS]

  test your application on a PFS they did [TS]

  tell them the tested based on the case [TS]

  sensitive every part and that makes some [TS]

  sense because that Apple has shipped the [TS]

  case sensitive file system for a long [TS]

  time and a lot of applications break [TS]

  okay sensitive also seems like Adobe's [TS]

  applications and Microsoft applications [TS]

  all apps that were created in the days [TS]

  before the mac even have a [TS]

  case-sensitive filesystem many of them [TS]

  believe not attempt to open files or [TS]

  libraries and stuff by file paths that [TS]

  do not match the case of the actual [TS]

  files on disk you would think those have [TS]

  bugs that woman takes long ago but the [TS]

  bottom line is mac users don't run [TS]

  case-sensitive file systems for the most [TS]

  part i always luckily has always had [TS]

  case-sensitive file systems but anyway [TS]

  case-sensitive is separate from whether [TS]

  things are normalized so I think if [TS]

  Apple was committed to bag of bytes file [TS]

  naming they would have maybe mention [TS]

  that in the file system session but i'm [TS]

  not sure [TS]

  anyway it's it's a thing I think about a [TS]

  lot and I have concerns our final [TS]

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  this with back places back plays has all [TS]

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  don't have to think about it looks by [TS]

  the way is how backup should work if you [TS]

  think about it it's not really a backup [TS]

  so exactly you can login to restore one [TS]

  file if you look for a file on a trip or [TS]

  something like that it is incredibly [TS]

  community have done this probably five [TS]

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  it's just it doesn't happen often but [TS]

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  you guys have any opinions on before we [TS]

  move not case sensitivity I so if for [TS]

  that for the two questions that you've [TS]

  basically posed here i think the file [TS]

  system should you know on the topic of [TS]

  like you know bag of bytes vs at least [TS]

  normalizing you normally do some degree [TS]

  weather you normalize for like unicode [TS]

  normal forms for combining characters [TS]

  and things or at least waited almost [TS]

  four character encoding I think encoding [TS]

  is an obvious when like you should [TS]

  absolutely normalize for character [TS]

  encoding you know and whatever including [TS]

  the pic i I'm less concerned about that [TS]

  you know if you pick utf-8 cool you know [TS]

  I did whatever whatever including they [TS]

  want to pick that's fine but i think it [TS]

  is a clear win that the that the [TS]

  encoding should be normalized for file [TS]

  system access whether or not you know [TS]

  normalizing forms of characters and case [TS]

  sensitivity I mean that's kind of two [TS]

  different degrees of the same kind of [TS]

  thing that I i'm less confident on but [TS]

  my inclination would be I think the era [TS]

  of case in sensitivity is probably over [TS]

  but I i would say that if I were [TS]

  designing a system and having heard no [TS]

  other arguments except for your ear for [TS]

  your large amount of them i think the [TS]

  cocoa api's should be responsible for [TS]

  normalizing normal isn't the name like [TS]

  you know case and and combining [TS]

  characters why's that the low-level capi [TS]

  eyes and and like that the the raw [TS]

  interface with the file system should [TS]

  not perform that kind of like messing [TS]

  with characters for the filesystem throw [TS]

  a fatal error if the if the encoding is [TS]

  incorrect like if you give an invalid [TS]

  utf-8 sequence is that just not work or [TS]

  should i dutifully write those two discs [TS]

  anyway yeah it's like if it doesn't do [TS]

  that then you have the same problem [TS]

  before like you can write a name and [TS]

  then you go to you to read that name and [TS]

  it's not there so I can see what i could [TS]

  be a problem so maybe yes maybe the [TS]

  answer is that if you try to have [TS]

  involved you know sequence in the name [TS]

  that you give it that maybe it does [TS]

  error out [TS]

  I don't know all rights because it's [TS]

  basically quest [TS]

  like suicide a pic utf-8 which is [TS]

  actually a bit because that's what [TS]

  everyone thinks because all the other [TS]

  and coatings are stupid or not it may [TS]

  pick that then they could just say oh [TS]

  when you write your filename stay BFS [TS]

  you should write them in utf-8 and then [TS]

  if you don't do it like that's your own [TS]

  stupid fault [TS]

  in other words that they have it as a [TS]

  policy not an implementation and [TS]

  enforcement and so then later when some [TS]

  other program tries to like in other [TS]

  words you wrote it with an invalid utf-8 [TS]

  sequence and then later your program [TS]

  tried to read it with that same invalid [TS]

  utf-8 seconds it would find it right but [TS]

  it would be garbage and then any other [TS]

  any other API is trying to like compare [TS]

  files or whatever would just you know [TS]

  fail in weird ways because you have not [TS]

  even written a value TFA sequence and [TS]

  when it does it would like if you tried [TS]

  to say is there a file called cafe it [TS]

  would be like nope don't see it because [TS]

  you just wrote invalid sequence the [TS]

  other one is to have the the file system [TS]

  in force at the you know that the driver [TS]

  level and in all the various operating [TS]

  systems if you pass some file name down [TS]

  through the system down through the bsd [TS]

  layers at some point we're gonna look [TS]

  over your entire sequence and confirm is [TS]

  this a valid utf-8 sequence and if it's [TS]

  not boom everything blows up forget it [TS]

  nothing works or you know whatever and i [TS]

  don't know i think checking for that [TS]

  checking the that its value tf8 [TS]

  shouldn't take long and should be fairly [TS]

  straightforward because we're not [TS]

  dealing with large drawings with data so [TS]

  that's that that's what I think they [TS]

  would go with they make that decision [TS]

  that will essentially be impossible to [TS]

  write an invalid utf-8 sequence to a [TS]

  file name which could also break [TS]

  applications like everything every [TS]

  decision they make aside from make it [TS]

  work exactly like hfs+ is gonna break [TS]

  applications and make it work exactly [TS]

  hfs+ is the one decision that i think is [TS]

  entirely wrong [TS]

  I mean how can this day and age you [TS]

  wouldn't be unreasonable to have like an [TS]

  actual intel hardware instruction to [TS]

  validate his secrets of utf-8 character [TS]

  yeah the rules aren't that complicated [TS]

  like no you mean you don't even have you [TS]

  don't have to save other where [TS]

  corresponds to like a code defined code [TS]

  pointing device and you can't and that's [TS]

  more difficult to do certainly in [TS]

  hardware not just like bit masking yeah [TS]

  but anyway I'm I suspect that's probably [TS]

  what they'll end up being the case [TS]

  sensitivity i think it's still weird [TS]

  issue because I think users of use of [TS]

  computers even just on iOS where you're [TS]

  not really ever pro [TS]

  to write file name but certainly on the [TS]

  mac having two files called like I don't [TS]

  know like you know xmas and then you [TS]

  write a file called xmas but you decide [TS]

  to capitalize the X and you end up with [TS]

  two files and you know you thought your [TS]

  writing the previous one I don't know [TS]

  they just case insensitivity i think is [TS]

  more like how how regular people think [TS]

  computer case sensitivity is a [TS]

  programmers that computers work for sure [TS]

  so I'm sure that it would be very [TS]

  popular with programmers but I mean [TS]

  maybe not because like i said the fact [TS]

  that there are still mac applications [TS]

  that only work on case-insensitive file [TS]

  systems due to eminently fixable errors [TS]

  in their source code it's like that's [TS]

  never going to change unless you force [TS]

  it to change [TS]

  I don't know Casey have opinions yeah [TS]

  you know I think that of all the places [TS]

  you want to have the Wild West the file [TS]

  system is not it and I think that [TS]

  forcing an encoding makes sense i agree [TS]

  with you [TS]

  mostly that that users expect case [TS]

  insensitivity but i don't know i think [TS]

  what with the internet running on unix [TS]

  for the most part in URLs generally [TS]

  being case-sensitive I think that people [TS]

  are starting to become more comfortable [TS]

  with that [TS]

  so if i had a vote I would say enforce [TS]

  something like utf-8 if you write [TS]

  something that's garbage or not utf-8 [TS]

  encoded barf all over it and then do so [TS]

  violently and I would favor case [TS]

  sensitivity by default [TS]

  that's my vote I don't think anyone's in [TS]

  favor of normalization but like i said [TS]

  it you end up a weird situation so I [TS]

  would if I was suspected they if they [TS]

  don't touch normalization of the file [TS]

  system level then they do it all the API [TS]

  level but then it's just it's pretty [TS]

  easy to make fairly absurd situations [TS]

  for life but you could have picked some [TS]

  word or phrase that has a huge number of [TS]

  possible combinations like in some [TS]

  language of the uses accents on its [TS]

  characters and just you know that the [TS]

  number of possible permutations goes up [TS]

  pretty quickly as you had the accented [TS]

  characters then you make a folder full [TS]

  of literally hundreds of files that all [TS]

  appear to have exactly the same name in [TS]

  the finder something you can't do hfs+ [TS]

  and something that you shouldn't be able [TS]

  to do [TS]

  but we'll be able to do with the file [TS]

  system even if it picking encoding but [TS]

  they don't pick a normalization so [TS]

  that's why I'm thinking about that's [TS]

  because it's not it's not a [TS]

  straightforward problem is not an [TS]

  obvious answer that will clearly apple [TS]

  will do this there is no easy answer [TS]

  I never thought we talked this long [TS]

  about the detailed implementation of [TS]

  dealing with file names in the files as [TS]

  well it's more just about unicode even [TS]

  though right [TS]

  you know you and I both know that having [TS]

  dealt with it but i can tell you the [TS]

  first five times I that with unicode I [TS]

  still didn't understand only have a [TS]

  six-time you know like it I if you have [TS]

  never heard anything about unicode [TS]

  hearing what i just said about all the [TS]

  the code points normalization is not [TS]

  going to sink in but it's it's weird and [TS]

  if you don't know about it and think [TS]

  about it when dealing with strings you [TS]

  will eventually be sad no I mean dealing [TS]

  with unicode in my experience is a lot [TS]

  like parenting in that the more you [TS]

  explore more experience you get in the [TS]

  area the more you realize that you will [TS]

  just always be wrong and there are no [TS]

  good answers [TS]

  Wow well I mean there's one thing is [TS]

  just understanding the standards which i [TS]

  think is difficult enough and then once [TS]

  you understand the standards then you [TS]

  realize no matter what I pick up there [TS]

  are downsides and then then the real [TS]

  said realization is that you realize all [TS]

  the play if your program you realize all [TS]

  the places in your program or Texas [TS]

  coming in without the encoding specified [TS]

  you're like I don't I don't even know [TS]

  what the right thing to do is what who [TS]

  how is this going to be encoded this is [TS]

  just bites coming across some sort of [TS]

  you know reading out of a disk file on [TS]

  disk are coming across the network and [TS]

  then you end up like dribbling out words [TS]

  and asking all of your input sources hey [TS]

  can you tell me what encoding using and [TS]

  they say encoding what I didn't realize [TS]

  you basically have an intractable [TS]

  problem where it especially we are [TS]

  accepting input from the wider world [TS]

  that it doesn't come tagged along with [TS]

  what encoding it is and you don't know [TS]

  how to make sense of unless you know the [TS]

  encoding so you kind of have to you can [TS]

  detect the encoding through a bunch of [TS]

  heuristics or i can guess or i can try [TS]

  to enforce downstream that you should [TS]

  only give it to me in this encoding and [TS]

  then you find out how many people are [TS]

  actually sending you things that don't [TS]

  conform or all of a sudden you get a [TS]

  bunch of utf-16 or shift just and you [TS]

  have this terrible text terrible we [TS]

  should communicate through a series of [TS]

  ones and zeros it'd be much easier [TS]

  wow I've never I've never heard shift [TS]

  just discussing a podcast i don't think [TS]

  i ever will again [TS]

  oh yeah but my first big normalization [TS]

  project was like what i would have [TS]

  killed for utf-8 i think that's that's a [TS]

  bet it was it before unicode thanks for [TS]

  worse let's just put it that way [TS]

  yeah no I mean it's not like I i'm [TS]

  mostly avoided having to deal with these [TS]

  issues over time with my various web [TS]

  server because like you're right that [TS]

  like hidden in native apps you don't [TS]

  generally have to deal too much with [TS]

  this on the web you deal with all the [TS]

  time and the easiest thing on the web is [TS]

  to just make all your pages serve utf-8 [TS]

  servicer themselves as utf-8 that may [TS]

  call browser's default to sending utf-8 [TS]

  informs only the modern world will make [TS]

  your browser's do that in the old world [TS]

  you could do whatever you want with your [TS]

  web pages but people in Japan we're [TS]

  gonna be sending you things in a [TS]

  different encoding and it doesn't matter [TS]

  if you put a utf-8 is the you don't like [TS]

  that was great when browser just finally [TS]

  started to honor the encoding of the [TS]

  page [TS]

  yeah but that I mean that was most of my [TS]

  career has been after that mean like [TS]

  when we were building tumblr and 2006 [TS]

  that was the case so it's it's been ok [TS]

  but and then the only the only time I [TS]

  really had to think about unicode on on [TS]

  web stuff recently is when emoji came [TS]

  around and I had to alter all my mysql [TS]

  tables to be the utf-8 mp4 character set [TS]

  which is annoying but you know after [TS]

  that it was a fine my single made some [TS]

  some unicode mistakes that the best part [TS]

  of the web and encoding is even coming [TS]

  to the case sensitivity is that the old [TS]

  URL that we increasingly don't see our [TS]

  address bar the hostname part is not [TS]

  case-sensitive whatever you think that [TS]

  means the encoding for URLs yeah is i [TS]

  think it is basically limited to ask you [TS]

  but this way you can encode unicode code [TS]

  points with the special escape sequence [TS]

  II think not in the hostname there is in [TS]

  the rest of the URL God knows what's [TS]

  going on there in the honey there's a [TS]

  special international demand extension [TS]

  thing but that has a bunch of security [TS]

  problems actually right of course and [TS]

  then and then like you said for the rest [TS]

  of the URL like it's it's kind of the [TS]

  wild west and it's the worst that half [TS]

  of the string is case sensitive and half [TS]

  of it isn't again whatever the hell you [TS]

  think [TS]

  urls are still a problem that it in that [TS]

  respect the body of your HTML documents [TS]

  is is blessedly normalized at this point [TS]

  because like you said most modern [TS]

  browsers honor the encoding anyway Texas [TS]

  hard [TS]

  alright well speaking of things that are [TS]

  hard [TS]

  how about a data integrity yeah when [TS]

  touching this last time this is the one [TS]

  feature i wanted my BFS that it did not [TS]

  deliver and we're speculating about why [TS]

  that might be or if it really was the [TS]

  case data integrity just the quick [TS]

  review is basically the idea that if a [TS]

  program writes some data to disk later [TS]

  reads the data back the data that [TS]

  originally wrote should be the data that [TS]

  it gets back and that could be a day [TS]

  later a year later ten years later if [TS]

  that's not the case because hardware is [TS]

  fallible you would like the file system [TS]

  to know [TS]

  hey you asked for these bites but it [TS]

  turns out that since last time since [TS]

  they were written they have been screwed [TS]

  up so restore from backup or solve this [TS]

  problem of ZFS and some other file [TS]

  systems have a way to make multiple [TS]

  redundant copies of the same data and [TS]

  when they detect this area they can fix [TS]

  it because they have a good copy bad [TS]

  copy that will just ignore the bad copy [TS]

  use the good copy and write another copy [TS]

  of the good one or whatever all that [TS]

  stuff is expensive because it means you [TS]

  have to write out check someone's with [TS]

  all of your data and you have to sort of [TS]

  do end and check some so that everyone [TS]

  is sure yet but i'm sending you this and [TS]

  here's the checksum yep I got that and [TS]

  here's the checksum alright disc making [TS]

  sure everything is all good you know [TS]

  that's what that's a feature of CFS is [TS]

  very important and wonderful feature of [TS]

  ZFS but it has a cost associated with it [TS]

  both in terms of computation of [TS]

  computing always check sums and also [TS]

  dependency because you can't really be [TS]

  done riding the data until you've also [TS]

  made sure all the data was written [TS]

  correctly and then also read written the [TS]

  check so make sure that you know so [TS]

  there's lots of dependencies that are [TS]

  inherent in that and mostly I wanted it [TS]

  for the the case of bit rod eyes and [TS]

  over long periods of time I write out my [TS]

  family's photos to disk and make backups [TS]

  that disk that I push that up the back [TS]

  plays and it's on time machine i'm doing [TS]

  super duper clones and if some of those [TS]

  bits are flipped because of [TS]

  errors in the hardware all i'm doing is [TS]

  copying those now corrupted bits over [TS]

  and over and over again over the years [TS]

  two different backups you know the [TS]

  incremental backups don't go on forever [TS]

  there's a window of time that you know [TS]

  before they'll fit on the disc in the [TS]

  same thing with backblaze they don't [TS]

  think they keep your back forever and [TS]

  ever and ever every different version so [TS]

  eventually you will just have be [TS]

  propagating the corruption over the [TS]

  years until 20 years later we try to [TS]

  look at some baby picture your favorite [TS]

  baby picture is all messed up and all [TS]

  scrambled and JP has a bunch of bits wet [TS]

  and you don't know which ones [TS]

  that's what I'm trying to protect [TS]

  against and a PFS does not provide that [TS]

  feature does not have the option to [TS]

  write out checks comes with all of its [TS]

  file data now a BFS is a flexible [TS]

  filesystem intentionally designed to be [TS]

  extensible without breaking backwards [TS]

  compatibility [TS]

  this feature can see would be added in [TS]

  the future [TS]

  hell it could be added before 2017 they [TS]

  got a whole year right but it's not [TS]

  there right now and that's a little bit [TS]

  disappointing it does right check sums [TS]

  for metadata metadata is like here's [TS]

  what the files name is here's all the [TS]

  dates the ownership the permissions and [TS]

  here's where each individual piece of [TS]

  this file data is on a disk so you know [TS]

  where to go get it keeps saying desk but [TS]

  you know that me and it writes checks on [TS]

  this for metadata but I mean there's [TS]

  good reason to do that mostly because a [TS]

  lot of this file system like many others [TS]

  tries to doesn't do always consistent on [TS]

  disk representation but it comes close [TS]

  it it wants to know did I finish this [TS]

  operation so if someone yanked the plug [TS]

  your computer and it was in the riddle [TS]

  middle of writing a file what you want [TS]

  to happen when you reboot is either the [TS]

  entire files there are none of the files [TS]

  there and check some metadata could [TS]

  conceivably help with that because what [TS]

  you're gonna do is you're gonna write [TS]

  the data and write the metadata but the [TS]

  debt metadata is not complete like it or [TS]

  not we didn't finish if we're not done [TS]

  then you just ignore all that it's all [TS]

  invalid in the file basically isn't [TS]

  there you have a consistent filesystem [TS]

  don't worry about that partially written [TS]

  file that partially written method or [TS]

  whatever and how do you tell whether the [TS]

  metadata is partially written while all [TS]

  your metadata as check sums when you're [TS]

  looking at that piece of metadata you [TS]

  can look at it and do the checksum [TS]

  inside is the checksum match the [TS]

  metadata and if it does it's completed [TS]

  if it doesn't you know you have a [TS]

  journaling and stuff but the aps is not [TS]

  used darling journaling is relatively [TS]

  expensive way to do the same thing where [TS]

  you sort of write out what you plan to [TS]

  do then you do it and you write out that [TS]

  you're done [TS]

  and how it can tell whether you finish [TS]

  the operation or not I metadata is in [TS]

  general more important the data because [TS]

  if you screw up the metadata you could [TS]

  lose your entire disk like screwing up [TS]

  the metadata for an entire directory and [TS]

  then everything under it becomes [TS]

  invisible whatever method is really [TS]

  small and check sums are really fast on [TS]

  it there's no real performance it so abs [TS]

  does do check sums with metadata does [TS]

  not do it with data this is a topic that [TS]

  came up a lot of WC talking to other [TS]

  people who had up the other file system [TS]

  nerds who would also talked to people in [TS]

  the possum team about a PFS and oh I [TS]

  think I think this was a very popular [TS]

  feature suggestion hey will be great if [TS]

  API has had an interview or the question [TS]

  why doesn't a PFS have data integrity [TS]

  and a lot of the the reasons are you [TS]

  know things that I said that is [TS]

  potentially expensive one of the reasons [TS]

  that I heard was that ssds do their own [TS]

  check something internally which is true [TS]

  they do because they have to deal with [TS]

  the pretty startlingly unreliable nature [TS]

  of flash storage you know all sort of [TS]

  memory chips are inherently at the [TS]

  bottom tiny little analog devices that [TS]

  are a little bit scary when you find out [TS]

  how they work and SSDs and are different [TS]

  ssds have over-provisioning where they [TS]

  have many more memory cells and they're [TS]

  going to use and is actually a tiny [TS]

  little operating system in there that's [TS]

  trying to distribute all this stuff to [TS]

  all the storage and they wear out if you [TS]

  use them too much it's very very [TS]

  complicated but they do copious not just [TS]

  check sums but also error-correcting [TS]

  code so if they find a bit flip because [TS]

  of some analog or whatever they can fix [TS]

  it before returning the data so that's [TS]

  one of their stopgaps is like a spinning [TS]

  this don't do that so much but they're [TS]

  going out and ssds do the checksums [TS]

  that's not really a great solution [TS]

  because there are other places they're [TS]

  convenient errors can be introduced like [TS]

  in other hardware other than the SSD [TS]

  itself like the bus and everything but [TS]

  since Apple controls the entire chain [TS]

  they control the bus that control the [TS]

  ssds in theory especially as they make [TS]

  max don't don't make max anymore that [TS]

  you can swap lots of different hard [TS]

  drives into and everything that they're [TS]

  little bit better off the rails but [TS]

  doesn't really help with bit rot right [TS]

  all my family photos to one terabyte SSD [TS]

  they get their successfully and then [TS]

  five years later I have no idea if those [TS]

  bits [TS]

  flip the file system can tell because it [TS]

  doesn't know what it originally written [TS]

  all I can really do is read them and say [TS]

  here's what I've got on disk is that [TS]

  what you wrote five years ago [TS]

  beats the hell out of me i don't know so [TS]

  I've been thinking about possible other [TS]

  solutions of Apple never builds in data [TS]

  integrity a PFS and one of them is [TS]

  something that I think there's an hfs+ [TS]

  program does is ready [TS]

  userspace solution II just scan all your [TS]

  files checks on them write the check [TS]

  from someplace else and then if anything [TS]

  goes wrong with either the checksum or [TS]

  the data itself the two won't match [TS]

  anymore and you will know that your [TS]

  files corrupted and you can restore from [TS]

  backup so it's sort of like userspace [TS]

  manual process of scanning all the files [TS]

  that you care about and writing out the [TS]

  check sums and periodically scanning [TS]

  them all again and make sure the check [TS]

  comes all matching about anything don't [TS]

  match then restoring from your [TS]

  presumably good backup you know so [TS]

  basically in protecting instead wrought [TS]

  by actively doing some process [TS]

  periodically hoping that you don't [TS]

  propagate whatever corruption has [TS]

  appeared in to all of your incremental [TS]

  backups you will know about the error in [TS]

  enough time to restore from your backups [TS]

  and that's kind of a heavyweight [TS]

  solution think about the name of the HFS [TS]

  plus program that does that clusters [TS]

  maybe or maybe that's just the [TS]

  impression anyway i'll try to look up [TS]

  for the show notes the course if you if [TS]

  you're a programmer and you think about [TS]

  this problem for more than a few seconds [TS]

  you realize that there is a big race [TS]

  condition here where if you're trying to [TS]

  read a file and check some it and then [TS]

  write out that checksum what if between [TS]

  the time that you read that file and the [TS]

  time you wrote the check something [TS]

  modified that file [TS]

  what if it modified while you were in [TS]

  the middle of reading it your your [TS]

  checks on your file one match and it [TS]

  will appear as if corruption occurred so [TS]

  you can do a thing where you say okay [TS]

  after I read the file [TS]

  I can't calculate check something to [TS]

  write the check some after at the [TS]

  checksum I'll read the file again and if [TS]

  it doesn't have to check some I won't [TS]

  assume it's corrupt i'll just try to do [TS]

  it again you just racing yourself over [TS]

  and over again until you get a matching [TS]

  set about how finally I got a matching [TS]

  set but you're not solving the race [TS]

  condition that way it's essentially a an [TS]

  intractable race condition without help [TS]

  from some other part of the system [TS]

  without help for example a way to say i [TS]

  want to stop anything else in the system [TS]

  for writing to this file and in general [TS]

  operating systems don't prove [TS]

  I ways to do it provide advisory locking [TS]

  but it's very difficult to stop anything [TS]

  else from right into the system writing [TS]

  to a particular file in general [TS]

  luckily both hfs+ and I assume a PFS [TS]

  include a feature that can help with [TS]

  this I don't know why i was a tad hfs+ [TS]

  but it's been there for a couple years [TS]

  now i think and it is what is it called [TS]

  its called the the right generation [TS]

  counter you can get this on any file [TS]

  today on your mac and hfs+ of you all [TS]

  get our list it's called the constant in [TS]

  the ghetto ass man pages add our common [TS]

  jen count it is a recording the [TS]

  documentation nonzero monotonically [TS]

  increasing generation count for this [TS]

  file system objects for all classes and [TS]

  objects not just files [TS]

  it's basically a number that goes up [TS]

  anytime anything happens to a file all [TS]

  you gotta do is store both the checksum [TS]

  and the generation count and then you [TS]

  will know this checksum is for this [TS]

  generation counter the file and if [TS]

  anything in the entire system that [TS]

  anything that file that number will go [TS]

  up and you will know your checksum is [TS]

  invalid so in the future when you're [TS]

  checking for corruption you won't be [TS]

  confused as I don't know I've detected [TS]

  corruption because you will know that [TS]

  yet the checksum doesn't match the file [TS]

  data but that checksum was for [TS]

  generation count number five and the [TS]

  file is currently on generation account [TS]

  number seven so it's time for Yuri [TS]

  computer check some sodas a system [TS]

  guaranteed way for you to match up the [TS]

  checks on the generation count and the [TS]

  content of the file and that is very [TS]

  handy and it makes me think that cool [TS]

  Marco here like i should write my first [TS]

  mac program which is a file that just [TS]

  does these checks out and use it because [TS]

  I mean I'm gonna say i could write in [TS]

  pearl but I totally could write in pearl [TS]

  but now like an actual back from that [TS]

  does this [TS]

  it's really straightforward the only [TS]

  real problem is where you write the [TS]

  check sums you could write them to [TS]

  extended attributes that seems kind of [TS]

  antisocial to me you could write into a [TS]

  separate database better be able to [TS]

  handle millions of things but anyway i'm [TS]

  actually thinking about this program a [TS]

  simple program that you pointed a [TS]

  subdirectory that doesn't check sums for [TS]

  empirically scrubs it and tells you if [TS]

  anything has a gun corrupt i think a [TS]

  local sequel database would be a pretty [TS]

  good way to do that you think that [TS]

  because you have never inserted more [TS]

  than a million rows in a sequel database [TS]

  i have and i can tell you it falls over [TS]

  badly and even likes a simple because I [TS]

  would just be like you know a string key [TS]

  well [TS]

  knows how you represent the file name [TS]

  but however you interpret the final [TS]

  string key and check so you do the file [TS]

  name but you can do that you have a [TS]

  unique ID for the file with this another [TS]

  thing you can get from hfs+ right so you [TS]

  basically start like two integers [TS]

  yeah it doesn't it doesn't do well try [TS]

  if you try to do a graph like of [TS]

  inserting maybe maybe I never tried with [TS]

  parents have always had some string in [TS]

  there but once you get into the millions [TS]

  the insert start slowing way way way [TS]

  down i know that i knows from experience [TS]

  can you provide a custom value to be the [TS]

  row ID how to get rid of the sequence ya [TS]

  get rid of one integer if you can go if [TS]

  you can provide a customer ID the new [TS]

  then each Road only have effectively one [TS]

  column [TS]

  yeah I don't know why it's like maybe [TS]

  it's a bit maybe I had indexes on it but [TS]

  a ride I did it for like a data that was [TS]

  like a couple of integers in a couple of [TS]

  strings and I left the you know that the [TS]

  row ID and in the millions disaster [TS]

  unmute becomes unusable like it's fine [TS]

  in tens of thousands it's okay and [TS]

  hundreds of thousands but once you get [TS]

  into millions and this was maybe like [TS]

  three years ago so many things are [TS]

  improved but anyway there there are [TS]

  solutions to this is not an [TS]

  impossibility so I'm saying there's also [TS]

  starting to peel is that will be fine [TS]

  whatever it's worth I i'm pretty sure [TS]

  there's some kind of optimization where [TS]

  if you i think if you provide some kind [TS]

  of like bigint column instead of the row [TS]

  idea i think it will use that as the [TS]

  right here so there's something like [TS]

  that I I application be sure you know [TS]

  there's a lot of innovation sequel I'd [TS]

  you know it took to make it sort of less [TS]

  safe but faster but you're doing an [TS]

  extended attributes would be entirely [TS]

  straightforward but i'm not sure that's [TS]

  the best solution especially if you [TS]

  don't have you have only read permission [TS]

  to the files you can't write extended [TS]

  attributes to them anyway have to think [TS]

  about because extended at that address [TS]

  is totally the way to do a file time [TS]

  machine by the way does keep checksums [TS]

  with all those files and has for many [TS]

  years I forget where it stores and [TS]

  probably an extended attributes but who [TS]

  knows but anyway in time machine it owns [TS]

  the entire area that it's writing too so [TS]

  does not to worry about permissions [TS]

  issues but anybody could be a limitation [TS]

  of the program hey if it can't check [TS]

  some a bunch of files always tell you [TS]

  when it's done yeah you pointed me this [TS]

  directory and it turns out they were you [TS]

  know seven thousand files that i could [TS]

  not check some because I can't write [TS]

  them i don't know I've been thinking [TS]

  about it a little bit is the world's [TS]

  most boring program but [TS]

  any absence of file systems support for [TS]

  a bit rot detection we need some [TS]

  solution and since it's technically [TS]

  possible it's technically possible hfs+ [TS]

  was like i said this feature this [TS]

  generation right counters is on hfs+ now [TS]

  it's just that I've never really thought [TS]

  about doing it as I was assumed the [TS]

  filesystem come and save me but that [TS]

  doesn't turn out to be the case I'm take [TS]

  matters into my own hands [TS]

  i mean if if there's ever like an app [TS]

  that would be perfect for two days John [TS]

  siracusa to make and publicize i mean i [TS]

  can't i can't think of something that [TS]

  would be better [TS]

  yeah i mean the other solution as many [TS]

  people tell you oh just make a use [TS]

  freenas to make a ZFS mass and put all [TS]

  your data on that and that would be a [TS]

  solution that nobody wants to do that my [TS]

  synology doesn't technology supports the [TS]

  btrfs now which I think has day to check [TS]

  something but my synology doesn't [TS]

  support it so maybe when i went to Mass [TS]

  eventually dies and are replaceable by [TS]

  10 FS and that'll solve the problem but [TS]

  in the meantime I'm experiment with this [TS]

  sunday was the best thing is you'll get [TS]

  Sherlock in like two years when they had [TS]

  when they had exactly so the full [TS]

  developer experience yeah exactly [TS]

  because when i finally get it working [TS]

  will be like now a PFS says the data [TS]

  integrity get rejected from the mac app [TS]

  store because it won't be sandbox about [TS]

  all access yeah yeah yeahs try to sell [TS]

  it get you know there will be something [TS]

  like competitor that will sell theirs [TS]

  for less than I like i said i think [TS]

  there's already a program that does this [TS]

  for each of us plus and presumably that [TS]

  same program will work on a PM as I [TS]

  forget the name of the programs but yeah [TS]

  this is not it's not a new idea i think [TS]

  this is already implemented an [TS]

  application I just can't remember the [TS]

  name which is probably why don't have it [TS]

  installed for like no reason that when i [TS]

  think about it like why haven't you done [TS]

  this before why aren't you running the [TS]

  HFS plus one that does this [TS]

  I was always just thinking the sauces [TS]

  that would save me I thought like well [TS]

  I'll just I'll stick it out and nobody [TS]

  knew file system here probably next year [TS]

  and I've been thinking that for a lot of [TS]

  years finally finally came [TS]

  no data integrity alright what else is [TS]

  going on me in apple filesystem tell me [TS]

  about space sharing that this therefore [TS]

  we gotta save that for a but i just want [TS]

  to get dinner as well shuffled around [TS]

  will save the other details to the rest [TS]

  of this is the main point I want to get [TS]

  to the word discuss will talk about [TS]

  space sharing an atomic on snapshots [TS]

  next week probably already thanks lat 43 [TS]

  sponsor this week fracture hover and [TS]

  back plays and [TS]

  we'll see you next week [TS]

  now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

  mean to be in because it was accidental [TS]

  oh it was accidental John any research [TS]

  Marco and Casey would know [TS]

  because it was accidentally was [TS]

  accidental [TS]

  you can find the show know today p dot [TS]

  and if your twitter you can follow them [TS]

  yes byl i assessed that's Casey list and [TS]

  a co-pay rm20 Marco Arment and our AC at [TS]

  Syracuse [TS]

  sorry talk about eva is no no don't [TS]

  think I forgot about that i mean we're [TS]

  gonna get to it someday we're never [TS]

  gonna talk about you know we are we are [TS]

  going to talk about tivo by the time we [TS]

  get to it people are going to care even [TS]

  less than they do now and that's pretty [TS]

  that's pretty impressive really when you [TS]

  think about it I'll care what nobody the [TS]

  only one on apple buys what the hell's [TS]

  the name indicates a rodeo but it's not [TS]

  the angry birds company I below so when [TS]

  apple buys then all of a sudden Mulcair [TS]

  well then we will talk about it until [TS]

  then don't see the point but to be fair [TS]

  to be fair i have nothing else to talk [TS]

  about so whatever I i discovered during [TS]

  our show that you can not be theirs [TS]

  I don't know when this became possible [TS]

  but nailed on tap on the mac now [TS]

  supports flagging where the flags can be [TS]

  any color of this like list of multiple [TS]

  colors and it's been that way for a [TS]

  while I thought how long have i I've [TS]

  always just hit you know command ship [TS]

  lol whatever it is to set the flag I've [TS]

  never known there were multiple flags [TS]

  now I can make my crappy email filing [TS]

  system even worse by making all like the [TS]

  flag messages but i never get back to [TS]

  now I can make them different colors i [TS]

  never get back to and color your shame [TS]

  yep wow you know if you never get back [TS]

  to them maybe it's not worth flagging [TS]

  yeah that's probably right now that [TS]

  that's not that's not how that works its [TS]

  flagging them because he thinks he has [TS]

  to get back to them by saying because I [TS]

  failed to they must not have been [TS]

  important but it's not true [TS]

  one could be like pick up adam from [TS]

  daycare it's like well I never did it I [TS]

  guess I was not important man flag [TS]

  well the good thing is like it when when [TS]

  you are as crappy and as slacking as i [TS]

  am with was dealing with email and [TS]

  responding to email most email removes [TS]

  the need to respond to it if you just [TS]

  don't do it for like two weeks [TS]

  yeah but on the other hand i'm probably [TS]

  losing a lot of friends and colleagues [TS]

  by doing this so it's definitely not [TS]

  free sending email DeMarco is sending an [TS]

  email into a black hole [TS]

  it's sending it to Devan all I just come [TS]

  up with a new topic future Sheldon write [TS]

  this and what email email handling that [TS]

  yeah that no one's ever going to [TS]

  Pakistan that before [TS]

  no but it sounds like you guys have very [TS]

  different systems i think it's worth [TS]

  talking about assuming i have a system [TS]

  could actually that's right this is all [TS]

  this is a whole show i'm writing gonna [TS]

  get my collection of hacks is not really [TS]

  something i would describe as a system [TS]

  it is it is more just like it just a [TS]

  gradual progression of shame [TS]

  I'm not words wait you're adding it in [TS]

  to the show me is how we handle email [TS]

  future topic screen time for kids is [TS]

  also i don't know if it's the only [TS]

  document that's also a topic that I [TS]

  think we should get them at my people [TS]

  the threshold of making history but it [TS]

  doesn't since I engine your kids just [TS]

  get older and they get more screens [TS]

  declan's going to be getting into screen [TS]

  time now Adams already into screen time [TS]

  on topic the whole show [TS]

  yeah yes because that's what we need to [TS]

  do is a parenting show [TS]

  yes apparently it's tech related it's [TS]

  tech related parenting stuff we could [TS]

  get we should do the parenting show [TS]

  right after doing the email show to [TS]

  really ensure we get the most emails no [TS]

  go on the people of these topics [TS]

  magnetic this technology is part of [TS]

  their lives and part of technology as a [TS]

  case you will tell you as your feelings [TS]

  about it [TS]

  mhm yeah you still on episode five [TS]

  analog sure I i think i was i think it [TS]

  was actually like random random episodes [TS]

  like i'm not i'm not going you know [TS]

  every once in a while there's a random [TS]

  episode the people say I have to listen [TS]

  to my list too but yeah sequentially him [TS]

  I listen to all that because i'm a good [TS]

  Frankie marco de exactly you're the one [TS]

  who cares you have a lot of free time [TS]

  that that too because you're retired or [TS]

  something [TS]

  goodness i actually have a busy summer / [TS]

  have explained well you know I'm going [TS]

  on vacation no I'm you know I busy I'm [TS]

  busy trying to paralyze an mp3 encoder [TS]

  from the early two thousands sign of not [TS]

  being busy i think that's what that is [TS]

  this is also just kind of like a [TS]

  procrastination tactics for to avoid me [TS]

  having to dive into the iOS 10 stuff [TS]

  quite yet we're gonna say what what what [TS]

  are you not doing that's making you [TS]

  paralyzed mp3 encoder i have i have like [TS]

  a lot of like big things to do on [TS]

  overcast for I was ten just like just [TS]

  you know the obvious stuff like [TS]

  rewriting the watch app for watching us [TS]

  three and then [TS]

  you know looking into all the new widget [TS]

  and notifications stuff everywhere and [TS]

  they just gonna be a lot of a lot of [TS]

  work like that then some big projects [TS]

  that like even just starting them is [TS]

  kind of daunting so I haven't had a lot [TS]

  of good work time in the last few days [TS]

  I've been kinda just like chipping away [TS]

  at side projects and animist [TS]

  administrative work here and there just [TS]

  in the time I have been too busy in the [TS]

  bouncy house [TS]

  yeah that one of the side projects is [TS]

  bouncing little really take time out of [TS]

  your schedule like sorry if I would be [TS]

  doing development now but the house not [TS]

  going to balance itself [TS]