0:00:00[Music]
0:00:06from relay FM this is connected episode 155 today's show is brought to you by
0:00:12Blue Apron Squarespace and Bombfell my name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by
0:00:18Mr. Steven Hackett. Hello Michael we're together. We are high five
0:00:22that's how we prove it we're in uh relay FM
0:00:26world headquarters which is Steven's office. Yeah
0:00:29So this is the first time you've been in the studio?
0:00:31- Recording this show, yes.
0:00:32- Yeah, you've had quite the experience
0:00:36with all the old Macs.
0:00:37You've touched a lot of them.
0:00:38You've asked me lots of questions.
0:00:40- They're all behind me.
0:00:41- Yes, they're on a big shelf.
0:00:43- Let me take a look at them quickly.
0:00:44- Okay.
0:00:45- I'm trying to work out which one of them I like the most.
0:00:50- The--
0:00:51- Probably the orange iMac.
0:00:52- The orange iMac. - On the floor, I think.
0:00:53- The single iMac G3 that remains.
0:00:55- Yeah, I think it's the best looking.
0:00:57Although I do like the old ones, right?
0:00:59The very top little cute ones, the original Max.
0:01:02- Yeah, there's a 128K, a Plus, and a SE up there
0:01:05joined by a Classic, we're gonna cut it open this afternoon.
0:01:08Someone melt us a Classic.
0:01:09- Not us. - Me.
0:01:11- You, I have nothing to join. - Joint custody.
0:01:13- Really? - In my Classic, no.
0:01:14- Oh, that's nice.
0:01:15- Yeah, so we're together, we're celebrating
0:01:18Relay's Birthday Week together as we do every year.
0:01:20There's some more about that a little bit in the show,
0:01:22but we have some follow-up.
0:01:23- We sure do.
0:01:25And we spoke forever ago about the smart connector,
0:01:29a little three-pin gizmo on the spine of the iPad Pro line,
0:01:34and how it's basically only being
0:01:36used for a couple of things.
0:01:38And there was an article in Fast Company
0:01:41last week that talks about this.
0:01:43And I think it mirrors kind of what we had felt was true,
0:01:46that there are high costs and maybe some high wait times
0:01:50to get the components you need, and that it's sort of difficult
0:01:52build for, sort of a difficult system and I think a lot of accessory makers have
0:01:56just decided that Bluetooth is easier and a better fit and so they're
0:02:01doing that which makes sense. I mean so one of the things the article
0:02:06calls out is that Bluetooth might be better for keyboards. I don't agree I
0:02:10mean it might be easier as a manufacturer to make something which is
0:02:14Bluetooth over smart connector but having been a daily user of a smart
0:02:20connector attached keyboard, smart connector is vastly superior because there's no battery
0:02:25to worry about, there's no charging, and it can be constantly attached to the device.
0:02:31There are struggles, right, around viewing angles and power I'm sure is a difficulty,
0:02:38but there have been, and I have used backlit keys with a smart connector keyboard, I think
0:02:44that it is a superior connector for the user, provided that the features could be there
0:02:49from the developer or the creator.
0:02:52- Yeah, do you think it's holding the iPad Pro back?
0:02:54- No, I don't think it's holding it back.
0:02:55I think that a richer ecosystem
0:03:00of smart connector accessories
0:03:02could enhance the iPad Pro
0:03:06and make it even better than it already is, right?
0:03:08Like to prospective buyers.
0:03:11But I don't think that it is holding the product back per se
0:03:16because it's not there, if that makes sense, right?
0:03:18I don't think people are like, oh, I don't want one of those things because it's not
0:03:25got enough accessories, but in having more accessories it would be better, if that makes
0:03:29sense.
0:03:30It's fair.
0:03:31Apple does say that multiple companies are working on products.
0:03:33Right now it's just been them and Logitech.
0:03:36They have that weird charging base stand that charges it very, very slowly.
0:03:42Yeah, that thing is not a real product, in my opinion.
0:03:45No.
0:03:46I do want to talk about Logitech for a second though.
0:03:49So I picked up those, the circle 2, the camera, we talked about that several weeks ago, and
0:03:55I ran into the trouble that I was getting a lot of reflection in my window mount because
0:03:58the way my windows are, no problem with the camera itself, but I have a storm window and
0:04:03I'm getting a lot of reflection.
0:04:04So I decided to return them.
0:04:06So they were on the inside, looking out, but the reflection coming from the outside onto
0:04:11the window meant you couldn't see outside.
0:04:14And so I'm going to send them back.
0:04:18This is my completely self-entitled rant.
0:04:21It's really difficult to return things to Logitech or talk to their customer support
0:04:24page or support people.
0:04:26They, you know, the cameras are great, but I'm having some interesting times trying to
0:04:32get a return label.
0:04:33Sad.
0:04:34It's hard.
0:04:35Everything should be easy, and it is not.
0:04:37So workflow got updated.
0:04:38Again.
0:04:39I remember that app.
0:04:41is a very detailed what is new in the newest workflow update 1.7.5 on their website. It
0:04:51seems to be mostly very small things. They've added some little bits and bobs, right, like
0:04:57different actions for some different applications. But they've also have a column of items that
0:05:06adjust for the iOS 11 beta, which is good.
0:05:09I mean, it shows that they are attempting
0:05:12to keep the app running well, which is a good sign.
0:05:15I think that was something we were worried about.
0:05:17But I think what remains to be seen
0:05:19is what the actual application is doing now.
0:05:22Like, are we just in maintenance mode here?
0:05:25- Right, just bug fixes, or is there new,
0:05:28exciting stuff coming for 11?
0:05:30- Exactly.
0:05:31- I would have read that page,
0:05:32but they didn't put in their app store release notes.
0:05:34It just said bug fixes and compatibility improvements.
0:05:37So I didn't read the document that they put out
0:05:39because they put out--
0:05:40They changed it then.
0:05:42--crutty app store release notes.
0:05:43Oh, how interesting.
0:05:44They changed it because when I got it,
0:05:46it told me to look at the URL.
0:05:46I looked this morning.
0:05:47Yeah, I looked this-- well, the URL's there,
0:05:49but you can't tap on it.
0:05:50Well, but like--
0:05:51Oh, come on.
0:05:52Put it in the release notes.
0:05:53That's why they're there.
0:05:54This is a bigger rant about many apps.
0:05:57But workflow, you should know better.
0:05:59Workflow 1.7.5 includes bug fixes and compatibility
0:06:02improvements.
0:06:03See the full list of changes of workflow.ly/what'snew.
0:06:06I don't think that's too difficult.
0:06:07- It's lazy.
0:06:09Anyways, I agree with you.
0:06:11Like the question now is, is it maintenance mode?
0:06:14Like Federico, do you remember Federico?
0:06:15He used to be on the show.
0:06:17He had a tweet or something recently talking about
0:06:20like the possibilities of an I was loving.
0:06:23You and I were talking about it this week.
0:06:25Like how cool would it be to have your workflows up
0:06:26in split view and drag a bunch of content onto a workflow
0:06:30and let it fire?
0:06:31Like all sorts of things could happen.
0:06:33and I hope they're working on that.
0:06:34I kinda think they probably are,
0:06:36but I think we'll see more as the fall rolls on, hopefully.
0:06:41- Yeah, I mean, we could've asked this question about them,
0:06:45whether they were bought by Apple or not.
0:06:47- Sure.
0:06:48- Right, like, there's no way of knowing
0:06:50if someone's gonna actually implement
0:06:52the features that you want,
0:06:53so we're kind of in the same area,
0:06:56but I don't know of anyone that has a workflow beta.
0:07:00Like, I don't know.
0:07:02I mean, people may, but I don't know.
0:07:04I've not seen anything.
0:07:06So I know as much as anybody else knows
0:07:08as to whether they're actually implementing these features.
0:07:10- Yeah, and being an internal team,
0:07:12that may have come to an end.
0:07:12I don't really know either.
0:07:14- Yeah, I have faith, though.
0:07:15- Me too.
0:07:16I'm choosing to remain positive about it,
0:07:18that because they're doing bug fixes,
0:07:20because they are doing something,
0:07:22I want to believe they're doing a lot more than this.
0:07:25And it's a whole lot of really smart people
0:07:27working on something that's great,
0:07:28just for it to be limping along.
0:07:30So fingers crossed, I think, for me.
0:07:33- So the reason that I am here and that we are together,
0:07:36that isn't the reason that Federico's away.
0:07:39Federico just couldn't make it today.
0:07:42- It was sad that he wasn't here.
0:07:43- He is very sad and he wants you all to know
0:07:44that he loves you so much, but he couldn't make it today,
0:07:48which is okay, I think that's okay.
0:07:50The reason that I'm here is because it is Real AFM's
0:07:55third anniversary this week, so me and Steven get together
0:07:57kind of around this time every year,
0:07:59so we can go over some stuff business-wise,
0:08:01but also because we have a lot of fun things
0:08:03happening this week,
0:08:05and actually throughout the rest of the month,
0:08:07lots of Relay FM bonuses will be occurring.
0:08:10If you are a Relay FM member,
0:08:11we've mentioned this in the past,
0:08:13go to relay.fm/membership and you can sign up,
0:08:16support any show and you'll receive all of the bonuses,
0:08:19which currently the feed, the bonus feed,
0:08:21includes our connected bonus episode
0:08:23where we talk about our home screens, that's already out,
0:08:25and there is some fantastic stuff coming
0:08:27the rest of the month and this includes a new we have a new perk which is 5k
0:08:33wallpapers desktop wallpapers of all of the relay FM show artwork they're
0:08:39beautiful which are amazing and they are now available to members if you're an
0:08:42existing member take a look at your email if you're a new member there'll be
0:08:45a link in the email that we send you it's all email just everybody just check
0:08:49your email right now and then maybe you'll have a link and if you don't it
0:08:52means you need to become a member so go to relay.fm/membership please
0:08:55sign up we'd really appreciate it and we try and give you lots and lots of fun bonus content
0:08:59to make that worth your while.
0:09:01Whilst we're focused on our lovely company here, we have a new design for our website
0:09:07which we haven't really spoken about too much yet.
0:09:10Yeah, so we launched this Sunday night. There's a blog post on the Relay blog talking about
0:09:16it. The idea was to make the site feel and look much more like the rest of Relay. The
0:09:21website came from a time very early on in the company and we've finally been able to
0:09:26come back around to it. It's much faster, it's much easier to see what's new and discover
0:09:30more and the guys behind it, so the mysterious Twitter user ForgottenTowel and then a developer
0:09:37here in Memphis by the name of Jason, both have worked extremely hard on this and I'm
0:09:43really happy with it. It looks really good.
0:09:45Yeah, my favorite thing about the new design is that each show when you click into an episode
0:09:50or a show they get their own color. The page kind of changes color based upon the show
0:09:55and it helps give each of our podcasts at Relay FM their own identity when you're on
0:10:02the website and I really liked that. I think that was a really nice touch. Whoever it was
0:10:06that came up with that was very smart. It wasn't me. I'm not trying to take that glory
0:10:10but one of the crew, the web design team came up with it and yeah we really love it. There
0:10:15are still some things that need polishing because as everybody knows it doesn't matter
0:10:20how great you test something once you put it to production, things start to go wrong
0:10:23and we're working our way through a lot of those little things now.
0:10:27But yeah, we're really really happy with it and I want to extend my thanks to Steven for
0:10:31managing it and to Frank and Jason for doing all the hard work putting the thing together.
0:10:36It is a, it was a huge long project that's been going on for a while and it was really
0:10:41great that we got to unveil it this week.
0:10:43It was a lot of fun.
0:10:44We also did our annual Q&A, but this time we did it on video.
0:10:49sure did over on my YouTube channel. We put together a Q&A video which I recommend that
0:10:55you watch. If you're interested in learning more about how we think about our company,
0:11:00then definitely take some time, watch the video. It's about 30 minutes long. We answer
0:11:04a bunch of great questions from Relay FM listeners. If you're not really that interested, just
0:11:09watch the first 30 seconds and the last 30 seconds and you won't be disappointed, I think.
0:11:13Yeah, it's really something. It was a lot of fun to do.
0:11:17Yeah, we put that together all in the studio.
0:11:18So you also get to see a little bit of Steven's studio as well.
0:11:20So I recommend that you go ahead and watch that because we had a lot of fun
0:11:24putting that together.
0:11:25All right.
0:11:27So should we take our first break?
0:11:28Let's do it.
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0:13:08- More follow up.
0:13:09- More follow up, all the great follow up.
0:13:11Chris Latner, Chris Latner you may remember,
0:13:14he spent a long time at Apple.
0:13:16He created Swift along with some other stuff.
0:13:19I think Clang and LLVM, which my understanding
0:13:22is they are compilers and that's the end of my knowledge.
0:13:25- Yeah.
0:13:26- Do a good job?
0:13:27- It's good.
0:13:28He left Apple sometime in the last few months.
0:13:31He went to Tesla, as you may remember, which was big news.
0:13:36Or like four days.
0:13:37He then left Tesla for what seemed like differences.
0:13:41Yeah, it seemed mutual.
0:13:45And so he put out a statement and then sort of cleaned the statement up afterwards that
0:13:50it just wasn't a good fit.
0:13:51So whatever happened, wasn't a good fit.
0:13:54The news now is that he has landed at Google working on Google Brain
0:13:58Which we actually had to look up because neither of us were that familiar with it
0:14:01No, I I've never heard of Google Brain before and I think they don't talk about it really which is the reason
0:14:08But I went and took a look at it. I did some
0:14:11Googling I found out that Google Brain is a team focused on
0:14:16artificial intelligence and deep learning and they are actually a part of Google's research arm and
0:14:22And from the page, this is what I read,
0:14:24"Google Brain team members set their own research agenda,
0:14:28with the team as a whole maintaining a portfolio of projects
0:14:30across different time horizons and levels of risk."
0:14:34So when I read this, take a look at this and look at the fact
0:14:38that Latner left Apple, who are clearly starting to work on AI,
0:14:42and then he went to Tesla and then left Tesla so quickly,
0:14:47my kind of read on this is that maybe he wasn't able to work
0:14:51on what he wanted to work on at Apple which is clearly artificial intelligence because
0:14:56he's taken two AI focused roles since he left Apple. I assume that Apple probably wanted
0:15:01him to focus on Swift because that was where he was best fitting for them. So he must have
0:15:06wanted to go and work on AI. Again this is all just conjecture, I'm just trying to read
0:15:10the tea leaves on it. And my assumption is that for whatever reason he couldn't get on
0:15:16with the people at Tesla or didn't like the work or it just wasn't a fit for him. But
0:15:21this role at Google seems like it would give him a lot of flexibility to work on whatever
0:15:26he's interested in, right? Like setting your own agenda for research seems like a real
0:15:30kind of pie in the sky, airy fairy type job, right? Like you can go in and think and write
0:15:37and like it's incredibly smart and there are lots of incredible people and stuff comes
0:15:41out of that, but it feels very relaxed, right? Like in what you'd be able to do as an individual,
0:15:47right? Like it feels like something that is Google just hire a bunch of smart people on
0:15:51the off chance that one of them might have a great idea.
0:15:53Yeah, it seems like a very academic setting.
0:15:56And I'd imagine that's a change of pace from working on compilers and languages and even
0:16:02from Tesla where he was over sort of real products and real things.
0:16:06This seems a little more abstract, but I wish him all the best and I think it's interesting
0:16:11that that's where he is and at least the two of us and hopefully maybe some of our listeners
0:16:15learned a little bit more about this program at Google.
0:16:18I think it's fascinating that these companies have little pockets where it's just super
0:16:23smart people doing research and doing stuff that could take place in an academic setting
0:16:28but within the walls of a corporation.
0:16:31Yeah, I think this may be the last we hear from Chris Lattner for a while.
0:16:38And I hope that the reason is because he fits there.
0:16:41Yeah.
0:16:42Yeah, I don't know how much like public research comes out of this.
0:16:44I know that's been a conversation.
0:16:46Probably a bit.
0:16:47on Apple right? Where people wanted to publish their research and so
0:16:52Apple made a blog, we didn't call it a blog, and you know journal writing and
0:16:56all this stuff is very important in this industry so I think that we will over
0:17:01some time after some time passes we'll see a little bit more about what he's up
0:17:04to there. All right we got an abundance of follow-up and feedback from the
0:17:13connected audience about AirPods interference. I started saving tweets and
0:17:18then had to stop. It got out of hand. Because there were too many like it and
0:17:22everybody was saying very similar things so to kind of sum up what we heard about
0:17:26AirPod interference it seems that a lot of people have these problems whilst in
0:17:32big cities, like walking around in big cities. So we had lots of reports from
0:17:37people who struggled with their AirPods breaking up whilst they're listening to
0:17:40them in New York, San Francisco and London. They seem to be like the pockets that were really
0:17:46giving me information like a lot, you know, people called out where they'd had issues.
0:17:51So it seems that there is something going on here, but it's intermittent enough that it's not
0:18:01considered to be an issue, which I completely understand. But the best possible explanation
0:18:07for this came in from Yoni and Yoni says there are broadcast wireless microphones that sit close to
0:18:16the radio frequency of bluetooth for bluetooth audio so it is possible that when you go by
0:18:22or when you walk past certain places in cities where there could be broadcast microphones
0:18:27bluetooth would break up on audio devices. Now this might not be the only explanation
0:18:35but it seemed like a good explanation to me, especially because I was having the most problems
0:18:42whilst I was walking through Times Square. Which is just chock full of stuff.
0:18:46Yeah. So when I was walking through Times Square, like right in the center,
0:18:50I could barely hear them. And then as I would get further away, it would get better. So it could
0:18:56just be that it's like radio interference from other types of microphones and things like that,
0:19:01that kind of break up. So I think whatever the exact cause is radio
0:19:05interference is probably the reason for this. Yeah I'll go with that. It was it
0:19:10was really surprising to me to see how many people have this exact thing. Yeah
0:19:15what I found surprising is how many people seem to have it but I've never
0:19:18heard that it was a thing. Yeah me too I mean I didn't had it I mean I guess it
0:19:23if I had thought about it it would have made sense but yeah I've never really
0:19:26come across it. But like even when it's happening to me I'm not like oh man
0:19:29these things are broken. I'm assuming it is something that is going on around me,
0:19:35so I think that's probably why people don't talk about it very much because it's not an issue, right?
0:19:39Yeah. So we should talk about the Marco service trademark.
0:19:43Trademark. Trademark. Is that the right one? Is the trademark the right one? So Tyler wrote in
0:19:49to confirm that the service that Marco Armond provided him when he bought, I think, an iPad
0:19:55from Marco was indeed top notch like the service that I received from buying my MacBook Pro
0:20:01so I think that we can attest that buying things from Marco you're going to get the
0:20:05best service possible.
0:20:07Yeah, I've purchased a camera from him in the past as well and it's great. It came all
0:20:11wrapped up with a little bow on top. There wasn't a bow.
0:20:16I bet there was. So I guess our recommendation is if Marco's selling it, buy it?
0:20:23So what do you think about the MacBook Pro? It's sitting here on the desk. How has it
0:20:26been in the week or so that you've had it? Would you say that I was right? He's nodding
0:20:34quietly.
0:20:35So no, the idea of claiming the rightness is...
0:20:39Perfectly accurate.
0:20:42I mean...
0:20:43And fair.
0:20:44This came up because I questioned it myself.
0:20:47Well earned.
0:20:48you just jumped in like a hyena to pick the bones of my consternation.
0:20:55Wow.
0:20:56I know.
0:20:56So I would say that your recommendation, especially if your recommendation was for me to get this
0:21:04exact machine, was right. That you were right to recommend it. Because I love it. I think
0:21:10it's fantastic. This MacBook Pro is brilliant. It's the best MacBook Pro I've ever had. I
0:21:16actually been using it predominantly the last few days, not because, you know,
0:21:23there's nothing wrong with my iPad, I love my iPad, it's better than the MacBook Pro for
0:21:27everything I want to do with that for me, but I have been focused on just the
0:21:38types of work that I need for, that I need to be able to do on on Mac OS.
0:21:43So anyway, over the last few days I've been spending so much time on this and I've come
0:21:49to love the keyboard which I wasn't expecting.
0:21:52It's way too loud but it feels nice to touch the O key on this keyboard that's been sticking
0:21:57for me.
0:21:58That's fine.
0:21:59Which is funny because I remember Marco having those exact problems with this exact machine.
0:22:04It made me laugh when it happened.
0:22:05But yeah it's great, it's super powerful.
0:22:09like I can't notice too much of a difference between it and my iMac honestly, some tasks
0:22:15which is really impressive. So yeah I think this is fantastic and I'm pleased that I got
0:22:21it because I think I would have lost my mind by now with trying to do all this stuff on
0:22:25the MacBook. I think so because you're doing so much production on the road. Yeah I am.
0:22:30Yeah well good. I'm glad it's here. To do a little more follow up I did provide you
0:22:36with a couple of stickers on the back and we had some stickers show up in the mail
0:22:40so you got some of those. So it is slowly
0:22:43you got two or three on there now? There's two on there. So you're slowly getting there.
0:22:47Yeah it will take its time as it becomes part of the family.
0:22:50Yeah it's good I'm glad you're happy with it and
0:22:54I think the more thing about the more I think the two port
0:22:59no touch bar MacBook Pro is probably like the right MacBook for most people.
0:23:05We, as I was talking to somebody today, who's, who's thinking about replacing an
0:23:08older MacBook Air.
0:23:09And that's kind of what I said to them like this, you know, it's a little bit
0:23:13more than the MacBook Air would have been, especially if you need some storage
0:23:16space, right?
0:23:16That that cheap model is, it's pretty cheap as far as it's going to be as far
0:23:22as storage.
0:23:23But, but I think it's kind of the default right answer for me now that the MacBook
0:23:28is great if the portability is the most important thing.
0:23:31But I think as far as like balance, the no touch bar is probably the way to go.
0:23:38Yeah, I think I agree with you. I think I agree with you. Like this provides you with most of the
0:23:43power that you're going to need whilst also keeping the price lower. And I don't know if
0:23:52the touch bar is ready for prime time right now. And I don't know if it's going to get there.
0:23:57But I just don't, whenever I see people using it, it looks nice, but I haven't seen any
0:24:04application of it so far that I'm like, well that makes perfect sense.
0:24:08That's way better than a button.
0:24:09Yeah, I agree and I've got the touch bar sitting in front of me.
0:24:13And really I kept this machine and sold my two port because I needed four ports for some
0:24:18of the stuff I do.
0:24:20But the touch bar is real lackluster at this point.
0:24:24Yeah, they had a way to put more ports on the the the
0:24:28What is it called what is this machine called ATP cause of the escape? Yeah, I know but what it is a MacBook Pro
0:24:3513-inch like parenthetical to
0:24:38Thunderbolt 3 port or so get it just it would be nice to put more ports. Their names are awful. Their names are really bad
0:24:43Well good. I'm glad it's working out. Yeah, me too. Me too
0:24:47And it was it was a great it was a great decision to make I think and also
0:24:52I've traveled with it in a bag and didn't notice. Yeah, I mean you're going from two to three pounds
0:24:58They're also light. Yeah, it's
0:25:01It's all it's all great
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0:26:58- So we have new beta bits.
0:27:00- Yep, we have a new beta, beta six.
0:27:04We had beta five last week.
0:27:06Now we have beta six this week.
0:27:08And I think the reason for that is pretty clear
0:27:11if you were using beta five, it was buggy.
0:27:14- Yeah, it was rough.
0:27:15- It was pretty buggy.
0:27:16I had to keep, I had to do many many forced restarts over the week just because of things
0:27:22like the doc not appearing, multitasking not working, you know I wasn't able to split screen
0:27:27any applications like there were lots and lots of little problems, my wallpaper kept
0:27:31disappearing and it was replaced with a black screen.
0:27:33That was my favorite.
0:27:35Except for the background of notifications which was kind of cool.
0:27:39It was a good look.
0:27:40Yeah it was super buggy.
0:27:42There are bugs in 6, so currently every application that I open for the first time opens in the
0:27:47wrong orientation when I'm in landscape, and then I have to close it and reopen it again.
0:27:51This is what beta life is all about, but beta 5 was particularly bad.
0:27:56However, beta 6 has introduced a few things which has set the internet ablaze, namely
0:28:03a couple of icons.
0:28:05Now I want to start with the maps icon, because I think this is the less egregious of the
0:28:09two.
0:28:10So Apple have taken the maps icon which used to show a road that was leading into One Infinite
0:28:17Loop and have replaced it with a new icon which shows a road leading into Apple Park.
0:28:24And I see many people tell me, well not tell me, tell the internet, kind of me, that for
0:28:29some reason they don't like it.
0:28:32And I can't understand what's wrong with this icon.
0:28:38I have no... it's basically the same parts that were on the previous one just
0:28:43remixed.
0:28:43Just in a different orientation like they're just mixed around a little bit more and there's a circle in it now like
0:28:47I don't fully understand like why this icon would make you mad if the old one
0:28:54didn't like putting them side by side I don't
0:28:57I don't see what the problem is.
0:29:00Yeah.
0:29:01So that's yeah that's very very peculiar to me.
0:29:05- Yeah, and all these people have maps
0:29:07on their home screen, that seems dubious.
0:29:09But I'm fine with it.
0:29:11But we should talk about the App Store icon.
0:29:12- Yeah, this is the one that people are really upset about.
0:29:14- So it has been different in iOS 11 than it was in iOS 10.
0:29:19And it's always kind of been an A of some sort,
0:29:23right, that sort of Apple's indication
0:29:25for an application bundle on the Mac.
0:29:27It's a very simple A.
0:29:29The new one looks, I see like three Popsicle sticks
0:29:33forming an A.
0:29:34It's sort of a test.
0:29:35Some people say it looked like a lean-to
0:29:38or some sort of skiing house structure.
0:29:40I see popsicle sticks.
0:29:42What do you think about this?
0:29:43- I mean, I see architectural drawing.
0:29:45I can look at it.
0:29:46- Yeah, kind of.
0:29:48- Like it's a blueprint.
0:29:50That's what it looks like to me.
0:29:51And I think that that makes sense to me in my mind,
0:29:54like this kind of like a blueprint.
0:29:56It's showing that something's being built.
0:29:58I think it's fine.
0:30:01I don't understand.
0:30:04I like it. It's like fine. Yeah, I don't you know, I don't really care for it like the old one better
0:30:09But it's whatever it's an icon design. Like I don't think this is something that is is all like we're only talking about it because of the
0:30:15Response it got like otherwise this would not be a story. It would have been a simple bullet point, right?
0:30:22I have no problem with this icon. Um, I think it's pleasing to the eye
0:30:29And that's kind of about it really like Apple have had a history of weird icons
0:30:35right like so many of the iOS 7 beta 1 beta 2 icons were just like
0:30:40Some of those remain with us basically unchanged Safari's basically the same photos is basically the change
0:30:45I'm not a problem with safari photos. We've come to grow actually really like the photos one
0:30:49Yeah, they've we've come they've come to grow on us and at some point
0:30:52we'll look back on this application the App Store icon and
0:30:55And it will be just how it always has been.
0:30:59And everything before it will look old.
0:31:00It's just the way that these things--
0:31:02I mean, I'm looking at the icon on the Mac App Store
0:31:07on this Mac in front of me, right?
0:31:09That is not nice looking to me.
0:31:11It's a pencil and a paintbrush and a straight line.
0:31:15That's very much how Apple has formed
0:31:17that A for a really long time.
0:31:19I don't like--
0:31:20I mean, when I look at it, like, objectively,
0:31:24I take myself out knowing what it is and just look at it.
0:31:27I don't like that any, you know,
0:31:30I don't look at that and be like,
0:31:31"Oh my gosh, that is so much better
0:31:33"than the one we have now."
0:31:35Because effectively, the one that we have now,
0:31:37the one that potentially we'll have,
0:31:40it's the same idea but just taking away the skeuomorphism,
0:31:45if you would call it that, of a paintbrush and a pencil.
0:31:48Right, like it's the same layout,
0:31:49it's the same three things.
0:31:50- It's just sort of flattened out into sticks.
0:31:54- Yeah, and I think that it's fine.
0:31:55But I do think that it looks weird
0:31:58next to the iTunes store icon.
0:32:00- Which is just a glyph of a star on a purple background.
0:32:04- And my assumption is those things
0:32:06should match up in some way.
0:32:07Like I think it does look a bit peculiar
0:32:09next to that one now, because they kind of fit together
0:32:12in the previous version, so I don't know.
0:32:16I think maybe an outline, a star outline,
0:32:18would make more sense to me.
0:32:19- Or a little drop shadow in there.
0:32:21just something to sort of punch it up a little bit.
0:32:24- But yeah, I don't, you know, it doesn't bother me too much.
0:32:26- Can we agree that the health icon
0:32:28is really the worst of the defaults?
0:32:29- It's kind of a bit lazy, isn't it really?
0:32:32- It's a white field with a red heart
0:32:34in like the upper right corner that takes up authority.
0:32:37- I mean, I like the upper right corner thing
0:32:38'cause it's like, ah, that's where the heart is, but like--
0:32:41- It's where the heart is.
0:32:41- Yeah, it's where the heart is.
0:32:42Home screen is where the heart is.
0:32:46I do like the settings, the increased settings.
0:32:51The contrast, I do too.
0:32:53That's sticking out to me a lot.
0:32:56Yeah.
0:32:57But I do like it.
0:32:58I used to keep settings on my dock
0:32:59and the internet shamed me in doing that.
0:33:02Internet shamed people into a lot of different things.
0:33:05And they fixed reminders, they flipped it back around again.
0:33:07Oh did they?
0:33:08Yeah, they flipped it back around again.
0:33:09That was super weird with it on the right side.
0:33:11One of the other big features or changes
0:33:14is around auto brightness.
0:33:15So question, do you have your devices auto brightness on or off?
0:33:20Off.
0:33:22Okay. Now I know that Federico has it off and keeps his devices on maximum,
0:33:26which I don't understand how he has any retinas.
0:33:28I leave it on. I don't know why you wouldn't.
0:33:32I think when I turned it off the first time it was very good yet and I just said
0:33:37that's just been my default. Like this is something I do.
0:33:40So you set and do you must be changing your brightness all the time, right?
0:33:43I mean most of the time I'm using a device that's with lights on.
0:33:48I don't use my devices in bed or late with no lights on very much.
0:33:51Yeah, which also surprises me that Federico doesn't like this feature.
0:33:55Since he works in the dark like 12 hours a day.
0:33:58So I mean I have used auto brightness and it works fine for me.
0:34:02I very rarely find myself in a situation where I need to bring it up or down.
0:34:06I do do it but I know I don't do it as much as I would do it if I had this feature off.
0:34:11everybody's gonna get the chance to experience this now. Because auto
0:34:15brightness is now on by default for everybody I believe they're changing the
0:34:21default. I could tell you my phone's over there though. And that it is now an
0:34:26accessibility feature. That's the most interesting to me that that's where they
0:34:29put it that this is not just a statement of we think you should use auto
0:34:32brightness. They've hidden it. But the statement is auto brightness is the way
0:34:36forward. Yeah. And I assume this is about battery life or... There is literally some
0:34:42some warning text that says that if you turn it off it will decrease your
0:34:46battery life. Wow. Yeah. It's heavy-handed. Yeah. So there you go. I don't know much
0:34:50maybe someone can help so maybe you know this is so on the like the LCD panels
0:34:55they use on the on the iPhone and iPad when they move to OLED with this new
0:34:58phone which is rumored is backlight usage more battery intensive on an OLED
0:35:03display than an LCD? I don't know. I have no idea. If you know this please let us
0:35:08know and maybe that's part of the puzzle here of we're moving to something new
0:35:13and and it's gonna work better or they just think auto brightness has gotten
0:35:17good enough where they can just do it and you know. That's what I think like I
0:35:20don't understand why somebody would need to manage their brightness manually like
0:35:24I never have problems with auto brightness. Yeah. But it is weird to take a
0:35:29feature like that and stuff it into accessibility settings and then change
0:35:32the defaults potentially. I mean I've said that but I'm not 100% sure but I
0:35:36believe that it is changed for people like that they've set it and then they
0:35:39pushed it away. I don't think that this is a one that they need to go back on
0:35:44though. I think like this is something that people don't maybe don't like but
0:35:47you can still fix it if you really need to. If you're the type of user who is
0:35:51gonna notice auto brightness is on and don't want it you're the same kind of
0:35:55user who probably knows where accessibility settings are. Yeah and
0:35:59the fact that they still give you the option if you really must have that option, that's fine.
0:36:04And I actually can assume that there are some accessibility reasons why they have kept it
0:36:09around, like that there are there are genuine reasons that somebody might want to have it
0:36:13rather than just personal preference. So it's good that they've kept it, but it is interesting
0:36:18that they changed it. But I'm not sure if this really says anything about the next iPhone. Like
0:36:25if the battery life thing is a thing then yeah but this doesn't screen that to me.
0:36:30without knowing the information. yeah unless there's something about ola that we just don't
0:36:35know. yeah exactly. yeah it just may just be hey we're gonna do this and this is the beta that it
0:36:39made it into. so talking about the new phone or the leaked details of the new phone, there's a
0:36:49a rendering of a phone going around put together by Steve
0:36:53Trout Smith of the notch at the top of the screen,
0:36:58but also being present at the bottom of the screen.
0:37:02Yeah, so just to clarify that, so Steve Trout Smith,
0:37:05he has given more information, which
0:37:07led to a user experience designer
0:37:09by the name of Maxim Petrov to create the actual images
0:37:13that 9to5Mac had published in their post.
0:37:15So I think that Steve created an idea,
0:37:18And then somebody went ahead and pushed that a little bit
0:37:21further to show what it could look like in use.
0:37:24So this brings up the questions that we've been talking about.
0:37:28Will iOS 11 sort of flow around the notch
0:37:31and you have stuff on either side of it?
0:37:33Or are they going to lob it off with dark pixels
0:37:36to make it look flat at the top?
0:37:38Or at the bottom, like these renderings at the bottom
0:37:41is really where I disagree with this idea.
0:37:44I don't-- I mean, they could do it, right?
0:37:46Obviously in three weeks this could be moot.
0:37:48'Cause one of the images shows a mirror image
0:37:52that you would create in software a notch at the bottom,
0:37:56which doesn't actually really exist.
0:37:57- Yeah, yeah, I don't know.
0:38:00And if you have an app like Tweetbot
0:38:02with your controls and tabs across the bottom,
0:38:05they sort of get pushed up a little bit,
0:38:07and the outer ones kind of fall around.
0:38:11It is as awkward as it is at the top,
0:38:13the status bar can take care of itself
0:38:15with the new icons they're using.
0:38:17But at the bottom, so much stuff goes down there.
0:38:20I just don't know if I buy that not being a completely flat
0:38:25level starting point at the bottom of the screen.
0:38:28- Yeah, because I am still of the opinion
0:38:31that the home button will not be a persistent thing
0:38:34and that you'll be able to do more interesting things with it
0:38:36than it just live there.
0:38:38So, I mean, I understand why you might wanna do this
0:38:41for visual reasons, but I figure if you wanna do this
0:38:44then you may as well actually just put a button there.
0:38:46- A tiny little, tiny little baby button.
0:38:48- Like a really physical button
0:38:49and just double up the notch.
0:38:50I think that it would be weird to have this mirror image
0:38:55in place sometimes and not other times,
0:38:57because by making it in place,
0:38:59it makes it look as part of the industrial design
0:39:01and therefore the silhouette of the phone,
0:39:03which isn't actually how the phone's gonna look.
0:39:05- Right.
0:39:06I think if this were like a hardware notch,
0:39:08we would have seen it in those Apple Pay icons
0:39:11that got dug up in the HomePod firmware.
0:39:13- I think we're gonna be very confident
0:39:14like the screen is flat at the bottom. I hope so. Nothing pops up into the bottom at this point.
0:39:19So let's talk about the notch a little bit. We spoke last week or two weeks ago about the
0:39:23possibility, and MQHD had a video of a mock-up with a white front glass, and so the notch was
0:39:30white. Which made me say that I thought that they wouldn't do it because they wanted to like show
0:39:35off how the OLED screens look, right? Right. So I've had a thought that if they decide to sort
0:39:41sort of cover up the notch so that if the cover glass is black the notch would
0:39:46be black glass with the cameras and stuff sunk into it the status bar on
0:39:50either side of it would be black and so looking at it it would appear if the if
0:39:54the top of the screen were actually flat as it is now you're kind of blending
0:39:57software and hardware at the top to hide it yep and if they do that with a black
0:40:03status bar and white glass I think to your point I agree with you it looks
0:40:07kind of icky but and talking about and thinking about it some more there's
0:40:13nothing saying that they couldn't have a white status bar on the white front
0:40:18phones and the rest of the UI could be the same when you pull it down you know
0:40:23the very top would stay white but the rest of it I think would work you know
0:40:26when you go into your notifications or widgets or something I think it would
0:40:29work and when all that stuff is closed you're just on your home screen or on an
0:40:34app it blends really seamlessly. I think they could actually look really really
0:40:40nice because so much of iOS is white now. Like I think maybe it would look as good
0:40:45or even better than the black front if they decided to blend software and
0:40:48hardware at the top and use a white status bar instead of a black one. And
0:40:52there is some precedent for this. I don't know what version of iOS it was but for
0:40:57years now the startup screen on iOS with the splash screen with the logo has
0:41:04matched the color of the device if you have a white iPad you get a white screen
0:41:09if you have a black iPad you get a black screen they're already aware of that and
0:41:13they can do things with it so why not if you're gonna hide the notch if you're
0:41:16going to absorb it and with pixels on either side why not go all the way so
0:41:23basically what you're proposing then is that it could be possible that if you
0:41:28had a phone with a white face on it that the status bar is all white and then the rest
0:41:35of the UI remains as it is. So what we currently see as a black status bar at the top of the
0:41:39phone would be a white status bar and it would include cell reception, clock and battery
0:41:43per se. So I think that this is an interesting idea as like a way to blend the colors together.
0:41:49The only question I have though is like how good it will actually look. So what we're
0:41:56expecting is that one of the reasons Apple is able to potentially do this to
0:42:01blend everything together is because OLED blacks are basically true blacks
0:42:04right so it is more likely then if everything's black for to all look like
0:42:09it blends in together I'm wondering if white replication would be as close or
0:42:16maybe weird once you get into night shift or something I don't think it
0:42:20would I don't think the blending would be nearly as good cuz like you said black
0:42:23on OLED is basically off and it would look very seamless I think. So yeah it
0:42:28may be some trade-off but I think it would be better than my aesthetic
0:42:34having those ears up there. I'm inclined to agree with you there right that I feel
0:42:38that having a really having this white front would look really peculiar when
0:42:45it's all off and stuff like as I said before like it feels like if you have a
0:42:49an almost edge-to-edge display, try your best to hide the edges. Yeah. And I think
0:42:55that white doesn't do that but we'll see. I mean you know if people really like
0:42:59white phones, I mean and this might be like one of these things where it's like
0:43:03a data point that Apple can't ignore that maybe they sell more white iPhones
0:43:06than black iPhones and if that's the case can you really go and not make a
0:43:11white iPhone? I mean forever they've used white front glass on the majority of
0:43:15of their color options.
0:43:17- You can buy what, five colors now
0:43:19and three of them have a white face?
0:43:21- Yeah, red, silver and gold are all white
0:43:24and then black and jet black.
0:43:24- Oh no, it's actually more than that, isn't it?
0:43:26It's red, silver, rose gold and gold, it's four.
0:43:30And then there's two black.
0:43:31- Yeah, black and jet black.
0:43:33- So this has been, maybe since they first introduced gold,
0:43:38there have been more white-faced iPhones
0:43:40available for purchase,
0:43:41which therefore might skew the numbers.
0:43:43So like if you're looking at the numbers,
0:43:45we sell white to black iPhones three to one.
0:43:48- Then they've got to account for that.
0:43:50- You've at least got to take a go with it, right,
0:43:51and see if people actually like it or not.
0:43:53That could be, I mean, that's one of those things
0:43:55of like, how do you ignore that?
0:43:57And I feel like Apple, just how I believe they work
0:44:02these days is maybe they work a little bit more
0:44:04data-driven in that way.
0:44:05- Yeah.
0:44:06- And not just so much based purely on design.
0:44:08- I think so.
0:44:09- So that might be something, a reason for it.
0:44:12'Cause I really think that it's just not gonna look
0:44:14good as the black ones. Yeah but either way I want them out of all these ideas I
0:44:18would like them to work to hide the notch into the screen. I don't want I
0:44:22think a flat top screen is more pleasing to me personally. Yeah yeah
0:44:28we'll see how that goes. I am though I think in the embrace the notch team. I
0:44:36kind of want I when we look at these whenever you look at these these mockups
0:44:43You kind of see two things right now one of them just shows like the UI flat across the screen and then the other shows
0:44:50The UI going up into the corners little Batman ears little Batman ears
0:44:53I want it to go all the way up into the corners because to me it's like I have that screen don't waste it
0:44:57like and this is how I feel about the the
0:45:00If they just have like this
0:45:02Home button on the screen with blank space on the left to the right of it
0:45:06I feel like it's a waste of this big screen
0:45:08Like don't give me a big screen and then waste it like find a way to use it
0:45:12If you don't know what that way is keep working harder until you find out what it is
0:45:16Like just giving me a phone that has this fantastic screen, but with a ton of unusable space
0:45:21It's like well, why are we even doing this?
0:45:23I think that depends on how deep that notch goes if it's just the status bar
0:45:27Then it kind of comes out in the wash I think
0:45:30But yeah, if it's further if it pushes into the content area somehow, right?
0:45:34But if they cut off the UI, then why even do it?
0:45:38Well, if all that would be lost is the status bar,
0:45:41and you put the status bar on either side of the notch,
0:45:42you haven't lost anything.
0:45:43No.
0:45:43But I mean, there are different mock-ups.
0:45:45Some of the mock-ups just have it go flat straight
0:45:46across the top, like completely unused,
0:45:48and the UI remains the same.
0:45:50So we'll see.
0:45:51I mean, I am enjoying this.
0:45:53I know we are spending more time on iPhone rumors
0:45:58than we ever have in the past.
0:46:00Usually you don't get Apple leaking firmware that details
0:46:02it.
0:46:03But like also this iPhone has a level of excitement around it that I don't think we've had for a few years.
0:46:08Yeah.
0:46:08Right, where like the physical design of the iPhone can inform some new decisions about the way the software is designed.
0:46:16That hasn't happened since the Plus.
0:46:18And that was a long time ago.
0:46:21And like the last three iPhones that we've had, or maybe two iPhones,
0:46:25they've looked exactly the same as the one that came before it.
0:46:29that there wasn't really much of an interest in discussion to be had around the hardware
0:46:32of the device, but we get to have that discussion now.
0:46:36And that's kind of why I'm excited to continue talking about this.
0:46:41But we're probably like two weeks away from the event announcement, maybe three weeks
0:46:45away from the event at this point.
0:46:47Like we're mid to late August now.
0:46:51I can't imagine that we'll get to a month from now without seeing what this phone looks
0:46:56like in the flesh.
0:46:57Yeah, I mean even the events the week of the 11th and 12th, you know, somewhere in there,
0:47:03we're three or four weeks away.
0:47:04And so it's all coming quick.
0:47:07I actually kind of realized that just yesterday, I was like, I want to win the, I was kind
0:47:11of thinking ahead of through September, I was like, oh yeah, the funny events right
0:47:14around the corner.
0:47:15Sneaks up every year.
0:47:16Yes, most certainly does.
0:47:17All right, should we take a final break?
0:47:19Let's do it.
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0:50:13All right, what else do we have on the docket today,
0:50:14Mr. Stephen Hackett?
0:50:15- So many things.
0:50:17So let's talk about the Canary.
0:50:21- Okay.
0:50:21- So this is a home security device.
0:50:23You and I both have one.
0:50:25It's got a camera, it's got a microphone,
0:50:27it can send you notifications.
0:50:29It has an alarm built into it, which we both like, so--
0:50:32- And tested.
0:50:32- Yeah, we tested it in the studio
0:50:34'cause you never heard it. - Nope.
0:50:35- And so we opened the door to the studio
0:50:36and backed way far away and turned it on.
0:50:39- It's incredibly loud. - Very loud.
0:50:41- It's good to know, it's good to know.
0:50:42Yeah, so if you're at home or if you're away
0:50:47and a Federico Vittucci breaks into your house,
0:50:48you can blast him with the alarm.
0:50:50He'll know what's up.
0:50:51So they had a blog post up earlier this week
0:50:54introducing kind of three new features
0:50:56we wanted to talk about.
0:50:57Canary Talk, desktop streaming,
0:50:59and a new sort of reduced latency
0:51:03to deliver real-time video.
0:51:05It's all good stuff.
0:51:08The latency, I think, is the one I'm most excited about
0:51:10because their notifications have been noticeably slower
0:51:13than what the Nest Cam can do.
0:51:15And they seem to have really caught up.
0:51:17It seems nearly instantaneous that if I walk
0:51:20in front of the camera without disarming it,
0:51:22I get to push notification on my devices, which is great.
0:51:25The desktop streaming, again, desktop streaming.
0:51:28Desktop screaming, Myke.
0:51:29- Oh no. - Desktop screaming.
0:51:31(yells)
0:51:32That's a different thing.
0:51:35Desktop streaming lets you view the camera on the web.
0:51:40So before you were stuck with their iOS device.
0:51:42Again, this catches them up with Nest,
0:51:44which again is what I'm most familiar with.
0:51:47But you can log in and do that.
0:51:48That is only accessible if you are part of their membership,
0:51:53their subscription, which--
0:51:54- I think that's fine.
0:51:55- Yeah, I think it's fine too.
0:51:56It incentivizes that.
0:51:57And then there's Canary Talk,
0:52:00which I think you wanted to talk through.
0:52:02- Yeah, so I was excited to see this
0:52:04because it enables you to talk through the camera, right?
0:52:08so you would be able to talk to somebody at home,
0:52:11which you can do for intruders, which is good,
0:52:13but also family members, pets, that kind of stuff.
0:52:17And I think you and Rem were talking about this
0:52:18on query recently, and she upset her dogs
0:52:21quite significantly.
0:52:22- Yeah, she talked to them and they freaked out.
0:52:24- Yeah, so don't necessarily think that that's gonna work
0:52:27for your animal, maybe you wanna try that out
0:52:29a little bit beforehand.
0:52:30But I'm really pleased that this is a feature
0:52:34that now exists because it's kind of,
0:52:37All of these things for me are further validating my purchase, which is nice.
0:52:40It's nice when you make a purchase and then later on the company adds more and more features
0:52:46to the product and/or service, which just further gives you an extra value for money.
0:52:51And that's what I feel like I've gotten here.
0:52:53And just before the show today, Adina was at home whilst I'm here and I was talking
0:52:59through the canary at her and she was confirming that it was coming through and with the messages
0:53:03that she was sending me, it seemed like it was pretty real time.
0:53:06So I can hear her through the microphone that it has and she can hear me through the speaker
0:53:12now.
0:53:13And I think that is so cool to have this new feature added to hardware that I haven't had
0:53:18to change in any way.
0:53:19There wasn't even a firmware update that I'm aware of, like there was nothing I had to
0:53:22perform.
0:53:23I updated the app in Memphis and could talk through my Canary in London.
0:53:27It was really, really impressive.
0:53:29And I'm super, super excited and super pumped about this because I love this product.
0:53:34And you know, if you've been listening to me over the last few weeks, I kind of been
0:53:37umming and ahhing about the nest because of some of the features that it has.
0:53:41But now I feel like it's basically on par again.
0:53:44Like, so I'm thrilled.
0:53:46I'm really, really excited about this.
0:53:48Yeah.
0:53:49And I think that that idea that these products should improve over time, like we were talking
0:53:53about it, it makes a lot of sense with something like a home security device that you're going
0:53:57to have for years and years.
0:53:58But clearly the hardware was capable of this when they designed it and they've been working
0:54:02towards it in software.
0:54:03And that's exciting too that companies have forethought and that sort of thing.
0:54:06Yeah, I guess the speaker for the siren, right, like the alarm is what has enabled them to
0:54:11do it.
0:54:12Maybe.
0:54:13It's really impressive.
0:54:14I'm very pleased about it.
0:54:15So, yeah, good.
0:54:16Yeah, so I think a lot of these features have been enabled by the fact that there is a membership
0:54:20scheme, right?
0:54:21So there are people paying Canary every month, which brings us on to…
0:54:26Our next topic.
0:54:27Ulysses.
0:54:28Ulysses.
0:54:29Ulysses has switched to a subscription model.
0:54:31Can you tell me about this?
0:54:32Sure, so Ulysses is a writing app for Mac and iOS.
0:54:37It was pretty pricey before.
0:54:38I think the Mac app was like 40 bucks.
0:54:40The iOS app was maybe 10 or 15 or 20 bucks.
0:54:43It's high in stuff if you do a lot of writing.
0:54:46I know a lot of people write in Ulysses exclusively,
0:54:51including, or at the very least a lot,
0:54:54including our friend Federico.
0:54:55- Yep, he does.
0:54:57- His review has been written of iOS 11 in Ulysses.
0:55:01What they announced is that the apps are now free,
0:55:04they have come with a 14 day free trial,
0:55:07and at the end of those 14 days you can subscribe.
0:55:10A single subscription gets you both the Mac and iOS versions,
0:55:14which is really nice that you can just pay once and have
0:55:17access to it on all of your devices.
0:55:20If you're a student, they have student pricing for like $12
0:55:23every six months.
0:55:24It's kind of a funny way of saying that.
0:55:26But reduced for students, which I think is nice.
0:55:29And if you're an existing customer,
0:55:31you get 18 months worth of usage for free,
0:55:34and then you get a lifetime discount on your subscription.
0:55:37It's five bucks a month or 40 bucks a year.
0:55:40- I don't think that every customer
0:55:41gets an 18 month free period.
0:55:43- I don't know.
0:55:45They have like three blog posts about this.
0:55:47Their marketing is a little confusing.
0:55:48But at some point if you bought it
0:55:50in the most recent period of time.
0:55:51- Yeah, there is like a, I think there is a bracket
0:55:56in which you had to abort the application
0:55:58benefit from the free period. Like I don't, I think that it's not for all existing customers, like
0:56:04there is an existing customer period of time. Do you know what, I can actually tell you this maybe
0:56:10by the fact that I have downloaded the app. I agree with you that it has been pretty confusing,
0:56:14but these things tend to be, right? Like I don't think I've ever seen one of these things go
0:56:18completely seamlessly. Yeah, like day one did this a couple months ago and it was confusing. I mean,
0:56:22it's a hard thing to do to change business model like midway through, but their blog posts,
0:56:28or one of the blog posts, talks a lot about the reasons they're doing this. And it's a lot of stuff
0:56:34you'd expect to hear that ongoing development costs money. And to do that, there are big cons
0:56:42to just having paid upgrades, or just having one app you build on forever, and just hope new people
0:56:47show up. And so they said that they're okay at this point, but they're looking towards the future.
0:56:52and that this is why they're doing this.
0:56:54I don't, I do pay for several subscriptions at this point.
0:56:59Ulysses is not an app I used before.
0:57:03- Yep.
0:57:03- So I'm not really affected by this,
0:57:06but if you look on Twitter, there's always people saying,
0:57:09well, I wouldn't look at an app that had a subscription,
0:57:12but I think ultimately, if you want these things
0:57:15to stick around, the ones that you use,
0:57:17you're gonna end up paying for.
0:57:19So I don't like the way that they're expressing this,
0:57:22but I can see how you got confused.
0:57:25You can get a free use period of up to 18 months, right?
0:57:29Depending on what you bought.
0:57:31So if you bought, as they call,
0:57:34recent purchases of the Mac app
0:57:36will unlock 12 months of free use.
0:57:38Recent purchases of the iOS app
0:57:40unlock six months of free use.
0:57:42So you can get up to 18 months.
0:57:44But from everything that I've found,
0:57:45it doesn't seem very clear,
0:57:47like in the blog post, like let's say in the last couple
0:57:50of months or so you bought the application.
0:57:53So what it does when you start doing your Ulysses
0:57:55is checking something and I assume it's checking
0:57:57those receipts, you know, you get like the little
0:57:59purchase receipts that apps can check.
0:58:01I think it's checking those 'cause then it tells you
0:58:03kind of what you qualify for and I have to pay full price
0:58:06probably 'cause I bought it like eight months ago,
0:58:07eight, nine months ago, something like that.
0:58:10Only on iOS, I don't have Ulysses on the Mac.
0:58:13So, you know, this is one of the things that's like,
0:58:16and I think it's good to criticize when it's unclear.
0:58:21So if I am a customer, which I am, coming to this,
0:58:24I'm not 100% sure what I'm supposed to be getting, right?
0:58:28It's like I don't think that their marketing
0:58:31is super clear about this,
0:58:32probably because it is an incredibly difficult thing
0:58:36to convey.
0:58:37Now, people are upset about this, as you can understand,
0:58:42because Ulysses was an expensive app to begin with.
0:58:45- Yes.
0:58:46So I think I paid like $20 or however much it was,
0:58:51something like that, to get the application.
0:58:53And that's a higher priced application than most, right?
0:58:59- Yeah.
0:59:00- And, but at least my expectation was
0:59:02if I was paying that amount of money,
0:59:04then I was probably good for a while.
0:59:06- Right.
0:59:07- Right, and I think that might be a thing in people's minds
0:59:08is like, if this isn't a $3 app,
0:59:10like this might be all I'm ever gonna pay it.
0:59:13So I think that's why like,
0:59:14there seems to have been quite a bit of backlash,
0:59:16especially in the user reviews about this.
0:59:18But this is the type of application
0:59:22that definitely should be a subscription application,
0:59:24I think.
0:59:26- Because it's something, if you use this,
0:59:27you rely on it day in and day out.
0:59:29- And it's super professional, and it's super niche,
0:59:32and it has a bunch of incredibly powerful features
0:59:35that most people don't need.
0:59:37Like, it really is an application
0:59:39for people that write professionally.
0:59:41That's who should own Ulysses.
0:59:44And my belief is that if you make an application like that,
0:59:47then you should have a subscription
0:59:48because it makes sense.
0:59:50And it enables you to continue
0:59:51to push the application forward.
0:59:53What makes it trickier is when the app
0:59:54was already a higher price than most applications.
0:59:58Now again, was Ulysses worth however much I paid for it?
1:00:01Of course it was, it's a great application.
1:00:03I've only used it a few times,
1:00:05but whenever I use it, it's great.
1:00:06Like I use it for specific tasks,
1:00:08like when I've had scripts for YouTube videos,
1:00:10or when I've written long blog posts and stuff like that,
1:00:12like I use that, but it becomes tricky for people when they feel like that they've paid
1:00:22quite a lot of money and then the rug gets poured from under them.
1:00:27Like I understand why people feel that way, right?
1:00:30Yeah, and I think that's going to be the case whenever you do this as a developer, that
1:00:36going into it you just need to know that there's going to be this sort of response and regardless
1:00:42of the time that you do it regardless of if you just had an update or it's been years
1:00:47since you've had an update or if you were expensive or you were cheap, people are going
1:00:50to respond negatively to this at first.
1:00:53And I think if you're a developer and once you kind of swallow that pill it makes it
1:00:56easier to move forward.
1:00:57And I think as long as you're clear about your reasons and users see that as they start
1:01:03paying for it features are rolling out and their money is going towards something, then
1:01:07I think people, your users that really care about your app,
1:01:12they'll settle down.
1:01:13- Yeah, and look, this is the thing, right?
1:01:15Like, I believe that this is something that they should do,
1:01:19because if this is what their business requires to continue,
1:01:23then yeah, do it, right?
1:01:25Like, I feel like this is something that they should do,
1:01:28and then people can make their decisions, right?
1:01:30Like, I haven't purchased this yet
1:01:32because I don't use Ulysses that often,
1:01:35but when I come to a next reason
1:01:38for me to use this application,
1:01:40then maybe I'll think about it then.
1:01:41Or I'll just keep the app that I currently have.
1:01:43- Sure. - Right, like it still works.
1:01:44I don't know how long it's gonna work for,
1:01:46but it still works, right?
1:01:47'Cause this is something I did like about this,
1:01:49is set up a new app, right?
1:01:50So like people that have the app can keep the app.
1:01:52- Yeah. - And it will work
1:01:54for as long as it works.
1:01:55But when it comes to the time
1:01:57where I'm going to be writing something again,
1:01:59I'll make the decision as to whether I want to
1:02:02buy this application.
1:02:03Like I don't necessarily feel that people should just pay
1:02:08for things because they're available.
1:02:11- Sure.
1:02:12- Like don't pay just to support,
1:02:14pay to support and get something.
1:02:16- Yeah.
1:02:17- And if what you're getting is the application
1:02:19or relay of bonus content,
1:02:21then you're getting something in return, right?
1:02:23- Right.
1:02:24- Like that's why, I mean, so for us,
1:02:25when it came to doing our membership,
1:02:28providing things and then as we have done over time,
1:02:31continuing to provide more makes sense.
1:02:35I think that there should be some kind of exchange.
1:02:38If you're giving somebody money
1:02:39and when you're used to getting something free
1:02:41or used to getting something for an existing relationship,
1:02:44if you're changing that relationship,
1:02:45you should get something back.
1:02:46So when I come to make the decision
1:02:48as to whether I want to buy this application
1:02:51to get the subscription,
1:02:52then I'll just make the decision of whether I want to do it.
1:02:54And I saw Federico and a bunch of people being like,
1:02:57"This is a no-brainer for me.
1:02:58"Of course I'm gonna sign up."
1:03:00Well, yeah, you use the app every day.
1:03:01it makes perfect sense for you to do that, right?
1:03:03Like if you use it every single day,
1:03:05100% you should be paying.
1:03:07If you use it very frequently, yeah, you probably should.
1:03:10If you barely ever use it, then think about that
1:03:12before you sign up for a monthly subscription.
1:03:14This is like the purchasing decisions that people,
1:03:17we knew that people would have to start making
1:03:19when we first heard about this.
1:03:21Like the idea of just grabbing an app for fun
1:03:24and seeing if it works for you
1:03:26comes to an end of stuff like this.
1:03:27But they do have stuff like a free trial,
1:03:29which I think is great, so you can go in and try it out.
1:03:31there's more opportunity to play with this app now than before because the
1:03:36the price was a bar for casual checking out. And I bet this is one of the
1:03:41reasons that they did that like that they believe their application is worth
1:03:44good money which it is it's fantastic so that but they knew that people were
1:03:49never trying it they were never getting the experience because the application
1:03:54was I'm just saying $20 I've tried looking and it's really difficult to
1:03:58find this information out now because if you Google Ulysses Price all you get is the new
1:04:02information. But so like if you wanted to give it a go, there was a high barrier of
1:04:09entry compared to what you're used to paying on the App Store, right? I mean all of this
1:04:13is relative, okay I have to say that, like all of this is relative to the environment
1:04:16that the applications run in and blah blah blah blah blah. So yeah it probably is a good
1:04:20thing for them now because more customers can try it out because there is a 14 day free
1:04:25trial and that's I bet that that's going to be a really good thing for them they
1:04:28just need to get through this right now and I don't think any developer you put
1:04:32this great like I don't think any developer can do this in 2017 and not
1:04:36expect this reaction business model changes upset people because people
1:04:40don't like change and they don't want to see like this application is now gonna
1:04:45cost me more money than ever like I feel like I'm being ripped off like that's
1:04:48how people feel that's how people react to this stuff so I feel like anybody
1:04:51that does this has to expect it, right?
1:04:56- Yeah, and I think if an app you use
1:05:01goes through one of these transitions,
1:05:04it's an opportunity to think if it's really critical or not.
1:05:08And a lot of developers, or at least the reputable ones,
1:05:11are doing what Ulysses did and what day one did
1:05:15of hey, the version that you have now will still work
1:05:18for the foreseeable future,
1:05:20but if you want to move forward with us,
1:05:22you need to get on this other train.
1:05:23And that gives people ample opportunity
1:05:25to really evaluate if it's worth it for them.
1:05:29And if it's not, that's fine,
1:05:30and if it is, that's fine too.
1:05:31And I would imagine, without having done any math,
1:05:34that if even a subset of their users do this,
1:05:39and they leave a bunch behind,
1:05:40then they'll still be okay financially.
1:05:42And that's what this is all about,
1:05:43making an app sustainable over the long term.
1:05:45- Yeah, there is a problem in regards to reviews
1:05:48with the way that the free trial stuff works now is like,
1:05:51say a developer had a $5 app
1:05:54and then version two was another $5, right?
1:05:56People couldn't leave one star reviews on the new app
1:06:00unless they bought it, but now you could download the app,
1:06:04get the free trial and leave a one star review
1:06:05on the new app, right?
1:06:07That can be a problem for people.
1:06:08'Cause I mean, their reviews are in a dumpster right now.
1:06:13Like it's not good, right?
1:06:14Because people were protesting, people are upset, right?
1:06:16people want to say like we don't think you should be doing this you're ripping
1:06:20us off that kind of thing so that that is a problem now with the fact that you
1:06:24can grab these these applications for free for 14 days that you can go ahead
1:06:28and leave a review I mean that could be something for Apple to think about like
1:06:31should you be able to leave a review during the trial period yeah that would
1:06:35be really interesting to see if that's something they address because more
1:06:40developers are moving to this and Apple's been so responsive because the
1:06:44trial period is a real thing that exists. This isn't just something people are messing
1:06:47around with anymore. The 14 day free trial thing can lock you out. That's it. That's
1:06:53why this low tier of use exists. That's why this 14 day thing exists so you can do this.
1:07:01So it would be nice if Apple maybe were like, "Hey, you just can't leave reviews during
1:07:04this period of time." That would be kind of cool.
1:07:07Sure, if you develop one of these apps, that's exactly what you want.
1:07:10There probably is. So it's something to think about. I mean, but this is just, these are
1:07:14the things that come out as the business models continue to move. And as we stand here in
1:07:20August 2017, I still see way less of my applications on a subscription model than I expected. I
1:07:26really thought it was going to be more than this. And I think a lot of developers are
1:07:30hesitant because of reactions, like what Ulysses are getting.
1:07:33Yeah, I think so.
1:07:35All right. I think that rounds out this week's episode. If you want to find our show notes
1:07:39this week go to relay.fm/connected/155 I recommend that you do go there because the
1:07:44website is new and fancy and beautiful and you can go and take a look at it and peruse
1:07:48over the cornucopia of attractive pixels.
1:07:53I really was curious how you were going to end that sentence.
1:07:56Yeah I'm still not sure if I know how it's going to end. Thanks to Blue Apron Squarespace
1:08:01and Bombfell for supporting this week's show. Thanks to Mr. Steven Hackett for allowing
1:08:05me to join him in his studio to record today and for giving me equipment and a glass of
1:08:11water.
1:08:12You don't want to do it outside in the rain. Inside is better.
1:08:14Memphis weather is like, you've lied to me. The weather's so bad. It's been pouring for
1:08:20three days.
1:08:21Well, don't come in August.
1:08:22And it's raining warm and humid.
1:08:23Come in April and May, it's nice.
1:08:25This is unacceptable. This is unacceptable. Steven's online at five12pixels.net and he
1:08:31is @ismh on Twitter. I am @imike, our wandering co-host, Mr Federico Vatici is at maxstories.net
1:08:40and he is @Vatici on Twitter, V-I-T-I-C-C-I. I think we're all back together next week.
1:08:45I think so. But then I'm gone for a week the week after that.
1:08:48Yes. Summertime everybody. How does it work? It doesn't. Thanks so much for listening.
1:08:53We'll be back next time. Until then, please sign up for our membership. We love you if
1:08:56you already have related.fm/membership. Give us money and you get cool stuff. Goodbye.