0:00:00[Music]
0:00:06From Relay FM, this is Connected, episode 124. Today's show is brought to you by Pingdom,
0:00:12Ministry of Supply and Blue Apron. My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Federico Fettucci.
0:00:18Ciao Federico. Ciao Myke. And Mr Stephen Hackett. Hi Stephen Hackett. Howdy. So I mentioned to Jason
0:00:25and snow on upgrade yesterday the upgrade is catching up with this show so
0:00:29upgrade just posted episode 123 we just posted one episode one well we're about
0:00:34to today post episode one to four how is this possible because we take Christmas
0:00:40off yeah upgrade doesn't take time off like like we do so we have to schedule
0:00:46that's that's not healthy Myke you should take some time off the upgrade is
0:00:50they need to happen. So basically my recommendation now is we move to daily.
0:00:56Daily? A daily connected show? Okay. For like two weeks we just go daily.
0:01:01And it's the same length as a regular weekly episode. We record it once
0:01:06and just release it in like seven trunks. Okay, what do you want to talk about on a
0:01:10daily show? I think we start with follow-up as you always do. Okay. So our
0:01:18rumored 10-inch iPad Pro continues to to make news now it is expected that this
0:01:28is going to be like a new high-end iPad Pro I don't really know what that means
0:01:33because the 12.9 is also gonna get updated. No you just go higher end than
0:01:37the Pro it's the iPad Pro Plus. I mean just keep making it more expensive Tim
0:01:41it'll totally work. The 9.7 inch model is now going,
0:01:46according to the rumor, be the low priced option.
0:01:49So I guess the 9.7 inch iPad Pro we have now sticks around
0:01:54and then the new 10.5 to 10.9, whatever size it is,
0:01:59it's all very strange and it's all very confusing
0:02:04and I have a lot of questions.
0:02:06One, this kind of reads like the iPad Mini
0:02:09like is either gonna stay the iPad Mini
0:02:11and not get updated to like Pro status or just go away.
0:02:15I don't think they can do that, but the iPad Mini is not in here anywhere.
0:02:19And I'm not sure, like, so part of this analysis says that this is going to be the thing that finally
0:02:28stops the free fall the iPad has been, which has been slowing down, to be fair.
0:02:35But I don't know if I believe that. This seems like more of the same playbook of making nicer
0:02:40merchants of iPads to get people to upgrade, and when they do, you make more money from it.
0:02:45I think this feels like just another step down that road and not something to like
0:02:49stem
0:02:51You know to change the tide. I don't know. What what do you guys think? I have feelings about this rumor
0:02:57And none of them are actually answers. Um
0:03:00I mean i'm thinking about i'm thinking about this new form factor. Um, and I have this idea
0:03:06That apple is gonna is gonna switch to this bezel free design
0:03:11Both on the ipad and on the iphone
0:03:15but that it's not going to be a complete switch across the line.
0:03:20Like there's going to be one iPad model that adopts this new design,
0:03:24and there's going to be one iPhone model that switches to this new design.
0:03:28And the other iPhones and iPads are going to stick around.
0:03:31So we're still going to get the 9.7 with the current bezel design,
0:03:34we're going to get the 12.9 updated,
0:03:36and there's going to be the new version that sits in the middle.
0:03:39And I have this idea that the bezel-free model is actually going to get thicker
0:03:43because it doesn't have bezels, it doesn't have the home button
0:03:46and so to make sure that you're holding a single slab of glass
0:03:49it's gonna be thicker. I don't know why but I have this idea.
0:03:52I can see that. I mean they have a lot of stuff behind that top and bottom bezel
0:03:56and it's gotta go somewhere.
0:03:58Exactly.
0:04:00I'd be all for that, I think we talked about this, if it gets rid of the stupid camera bump
0:04:04which I don't mind on my iPhone.
0:04:06Like it generally doesn't bother me and I carry my iPhone without a case.
0:04:10It, like, I hate it on my 9.7 inch iPad Pro.
0:04:14Anytime I like, maybe it's 'cause I'm rougher with the iPad,
0:04:16like I slide it across the table or like,
0:04:18put it on my nightstand, like the camera always like,
0:04:20catches on something, like at some point
0:04:22I'm just gonna rip the thing out of the body.
0:04:24So I would love for that to be flush again.
0:04:26I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
0:04:29But I kind of agree with you.
0:04:30I think this is going to be a,
0:04:32like a staggered design change.
0:04:34You think about when they went to the design we have now
0:04:38with the thinner side bezels,
0:04:39that first appeared on the iPad mini,
0:04:42'cause the iPad 4 was still around,
0:04:43and when the iPad Air came out the next year,
0:04:46it sort of became a big iPad mini, right?
0:04:48The same construction, the same bezels.
0:04:51And so there's precedent for this,
0:04:54and I think you're right that if they do this,
0:04:56it's gonna be a big change.
0:04:57I don't see them doing this to the 12.9.
0:05:00That thing is, I think,
0:05:03probably heavier than they want it to be,
0:05:04so maybe they keep the current construction there but work to get it
0:05:09thinner and lighter and use this 10.x inch model as like the
0:05:17new form factor and then you know the next couple years it rolls out everywhere.
0:05:20I think it's especially interesting to think about a bezel-free design on the
0:05:25iPad in terms of how it may affect iOS because think about all of the
0:05:31activation points, all the gestures that you use from the edge of the display on
0:05:36the iPad, especially multitasking. We have gestures from the edge of the display on
0:05:41the iPhone 2, but on the iPad, especially if combined with some changes in 10.3,
0:05:45I assume a bezel-free design would be interesting when you want to activate
0:05:50multitasking for example, or maybe you want to do drag and drop. I wonder how
0:05:54this design may be tied to the software and vice-versa. So it'd be
0:05:59interesting if Apple does a beta 10.3, if we can infer some of the design changes coming
0:06:05to the hardware to facilitate the changes in the software. So I'm looking forward to
0:06:08the beta also, not just to see what's actually changing, but also to see if we can guess
0:06:13what the next hardware is going to be like.
0:06:17I don't think bezel-free, I mean I think we use the term bezel-free, but I don't think
0:06:22there will be no bezels. I think that it will be like super thin, but really where we're
0:06:29we're going to see gains is in the chin and the forehead of the phone, right?
0:06:34That like it stretches out across on the iPad, like it stretches out and makes everything,
0:06:38all the bezels a little thinner.
0:06:42Just because of the things that you mentioned, right?
0:06:44Like activating side gestures and stuff.
0:06:46The only other thing that I could assume is if they do go bezel free that they curve the
0:06:50screen on the edges a little bit.
0:06:53And then that is what allows you to activate all of the side swiping, which on the iPad
0:06:57is incredibly important, right?
0:07:00Because you're actually manipulating parts
0:07:02of the operating system purely based on these.
0:07:05So, you know, I think we talk about bezel free,
0:07:08but I would be really surprised if the first time
0:07:11that Apple like significantly reduced the bezels
0:07:15on these devices in a long time,
0:07:16and I guess on the iPhone it may be in ever,
0:07:19I think there will still be something there,
0:07:21but it will be super slight,
0:07:22and really we'll be getting a lot more benefit
0:07:25from losing the top and bottom than the sides.
0:07:29- The big question is what happens to the home button
0:07:31on the iPad because the current rumor says
0:07:33there's not gonna be one.
0:07:35So it's gonna be-- - It doesn't need one.
0:07:37- I agree.
0:07:38I think it's gonna be in the screen
0:07:40and I think the iPad will be a preview of the change
0:07:43coming to the iPhone as well.
0:07:45But it's interesting because basically everything
0:07:47is gonna be based on gestures and there's going to be
0:07:50touch ID integrated on one side of the display basically.
0:07:53That's the rumor. - Well, my feeling
0:07:55different to the iPhone.
0:07:57I my feeling it just doesn't need
0:07:59the iPad doesn't need a home button at all
0:08:01because gestures
0:08:04to activate those functions
0:08:07are way easier to achieve with the iPad.
0:08:09And for me, I don't know about you
0:08:12guys, but I always
0:08:14use those gestures, you know, like the
0:08:16pinch gesture
0:08:18and the swipe up gesture with the four
0:08:19or five fingers.
0:08:20Like that's how I get to the home screen
0:08:23and get to multitasking on my iPads.
0:08:25all the time. And I think that with the iPad they can get away with that, right?
0:08:30Like if they haven't worked out a way to do what I assume is an incredibly
0:08:34difficult task of embedding a home button in the screen, they could maybe get away with it.
0:08:39Because as F. Hanshaw in the chat room is suggesting about 3D touch, now I would expect
0:08:46that a home button embedded in a screen is going to need 3D touch, right? It's going to
0:08:51need the haptic motors and I'm unconvinced that that is coming to the iPad line.
0:08:58So I wouldn't be surprised, there's no home button but look how great these gestures are.
0:09:02That's where I think it might go with the iPad at least but I don't think it would be
0:09:05that way for the iPhone.
0:09:06Yeah I mean I don't use gestures much.
0:09:10I guess the big question for me is what's gonna happen to all of the accessibility features
0:09:16based on the home button?
0:09:18what's gonna happen to Siri if you don't have a button on the screen, you know?
0:09:22But I guess these are also...
0:09:24No physical hardware button makes the accessibility stuff difficult, whether it's in the screen
0:09:28or not, right?
0:09:29Because if there is a home button in the screen, right, if we take it to that perceived idea
0:09:34of where that's gonna go, you won't feel it.
0:09:37So it's always gonna be a problem for accessibility reasons.
0:09:41So I'm interested to see that.
0:09:43I'm still unconvinced about this home button in the screen idea. I
0:09:47Remain unconvinced about that as a thing to be honest
0:09:51And I know that it's like it is an idea and it is a good idea
0:09:55But it just seems like an a really tricky engineering problem that I'm
0:10:01Unconvinced Apple has solved like, you know, and I look at the MacBook Pro's as an example of that, you know
0:10:09like the little touch ID
0:10:11Section on the on the touch bar and really that should be screen, but it's not
0:10:16And and so I just remain unconvinced that that is a problem that's solved
0:10:20But I think that they have time and I like the idea of doing it in one model because it lends
0:10:26I'm so happy Federico to hear that you are already leaning towards my idea of the iPhone pro prediction
0:10:33For later in the year. I can't believe you're around already
0:10:37I didn't say that you said you thought that they might do one iPhone didn't say iPhone Pro
0:10:43it's but if they do right like if they have if they have an iPhone 7s, which is the
0:10:48Design that we have right now and then they have another one that's more expensive and has a bezel less design
0:10:55It would probably be called the iPhone Pro right like it makes sense. I am I
0:10:59Think I can see that right like that
0:11:02these are thicker phones that are incredibly expensive like and the iPad
0:11:06as well like this 10.5 or whatever it's gonna be that thing's gonna be over a
0:11:11thousand dollars like if they do what we're thinking that they're gonna do
0:11:16they put it there and the idea of it like taking the iPad out of the
0:11:19tailspin is it just increases profits right because this iPad appeals to
0:11:24everyone that bought the pro last year right it's like it's meant for them so
0:11:29So we buy another one after a year and it pushes the profits up.
0:11:34And if I get a nice design out of it and a cool new iPad, like I'm happy to give them
0:11:38my money, I think that's the point.
0:11:42You're always happy to give them your money.
0:11:44Well I mean with the iPad, definitely.
0:11:48Shopping problems return.
0:11:49So we have a bunch of topics this week, but first Myke do you want to tell us about our
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0:11:54I most certainly do.
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0:14:16of this show and Relay FM.
0:14:18- So up first we're gonna talk about CES, everyone.
0:14:23favorite Las Vegas event destination dumpster fire. So you know CES
0:14:33generally the Apple community kind of rolls its eyes at. I think there's some
0:14:36good reasons there but this year a really interesting story caught our
0:14:39attention and that is basically Alexa being built in to all all sorts of
0:14:46things. Mine just turned on it's staring at me. So it's important to kind of break
0:14:52this down. So the service was built into the Echo, Apple's hardware, or Amazon's
0:14:58hardware, but there is also a way that third-party hardware manufacturers can
0:15:04tap into that ecosystem. So there are a couple different ways they can do it.
0:15:07They can put the voice services package into their hardware or they can
0:15:13basically pass it off to Amazon directly. So a couple different ways other
0:15:18companies can build on top of the service. And so we see a lot of this at
0:15:24CES. Everything from like smartwatches, someone put it in a refrigerator for some
0:15:29reason, Ford, the auto company is rolling it into their vehicles. So beginning
0:15:36I think this year you'll be able to talk to your echo and say hey start my car or
0:15:41hey unlock the doors but eventually it will roll out where it's in vehicle so you
0:15:46can actually be in your car and talk to it like you can talk to Siri in your car.
0:15:50So there's this common burn that we're getting into this that Alexa doesn't really work as
0:15:56an assistant because it is stuck in your kitchen to quote Phil Schiller and that's like that
0:16:01burn is already out of date like it is changing.
0:16:04And I find it really fascinating that this thing is just spreading like wildfire.
0:16:12Well, there's a bunch of points that we need to make otherwise we're just gonna make some people upset.
0:16:18The obvious first
0:16:20counter argument would be that Apple is taking a different approach with HomeKit and Siri
0:16:25which is basically we gotta talk about these two things combined because
0:16:29Alexa is both an assistant and also a suite of home connected services and devices.
0:16:35So the big difference is that Siri works internationally and
0:16:40HomeKit is not limited to the United States
0:16:44whereas the
0:16:47Web services and the echo are like available in three countries
0:16:51I think the US the UK and Germany if I'm not mistaken at this point in the show
0:16:56I would like to just ask a question. Yes. Okay. Do we say that word or not? I
0:17:01Muted my my well sure. I've also muted mine, but we could be setting off
0:17:09devices all around the globe.
0:17:11- Jason Snell said that that's fine for media to do,
0:17:13I think so.
0:17:14- No, I don't think he did.
0:17:15I would say echo, all right, that we call it the echo.
0:17:18- No, no, just tell people to mute their speakers right now
0:17:23because we're gonna say the word.
0:17:25- As it stands currently, I have taken notes to bleep
0:17:28every time it is mentioned.
0:17:30- I think we just say it and you just bleep them all.
0:17:31I think it'd be hilarious.
0:17:32- No, I don't want all that work.
0:17:34I think we should just call it the echo.
0:17:35I think that that is fair.
0:17:37- I think we need to live dangerously every once in a while.
0:17:39No, I don't like to do that.
0:17:40Just say Alexa.
0:17:42See, it's fine.
0:17:43It's fine.
0:17:44Yeah, but every time you say it, I'm bleeping you, so.
0:17:47No, no, don't say Alexa.
0:17:49Don't bleep me, Michael, Alexa.
0:17:50Come on.
0:17:51Oh, I just want to say Alexa.
0:17:53Okay, anyway.
0:17:54I will get you for this.
0:17:57No, no you won't.
0:17:58So there's a difference between Amazon's approach
0:18:02and Apple's approach.
0:18:04They're different.
0:18:04You could argue that Apple's is more considered maybe.
0:18:08They have, in theory, they have strict security requirements.
0:18:11The reason why you have fewer HomeKit devices
0:18:14than Alexa connected devices is that based on what we know,
0:18:19based on the rumors we heard,
0:18:21based on some reports from publications in the past,
0:18:25Apple is very slow to approve new HomeKit devices.
0:18:29You gotta have a special chip inside.
0:18:31It's not like you can make a security camera
0:18:33with some web service and there you go.
0:18:35You just sign up for the Amazon web services
0:18:37you can roll out the election integration. It doesn't work that way with HomeKit.
0:18:40But also the counter counter argument is Amazon started slow, now is taking the Netflix approach,
0:18:50which is you have a basic product that works well, is fast and now is spreading. Starting with the US,
0:18:58the UK, Germany, now it's coming out on a bunch of different devices and they have what Apple
0:19:04doesn't have with Serum HomeKit which is Momentum and Amazon is able now to
0:19:09scale the product from the US to Europe to hundreds of devices that you know
0:19:17they're not available in HomeKit. You don't have HomeKit fridges, you don't
0:19:21have you know HomeKit cars of course. It's two very different strategies and I
0:19:30I tend to sit somewhere in the middle. I love my Echo.
0:19:35I also realize that Siri and HomeKit are available to more people around the world.
0:19:42But also on the other hand, I have a better experience with Alexa and the Echo than I have with Siri.
0:19:50I know that it's not as flexible, but every time I ask a question to my Echo, it responds.
0:19:58Whereas I don't have the same experience with, you know, with Siri and other HomeKit devices.
0:20:04And furthermore, the Echo is able to talk to more services than Siri is.
0:20:09I mean, already, you know, I'm able to do way more by having queries of my Echo and asking it to do things for me than Siri can.
0:20:17Siri cannot arm my Canary via IFTTT, you know?
0:20:24I mean that's definitely like the fundamental difference between the two companies approaches
0:20:28and you know the Verge had this article pitching Electa versus the HomeKit which I think is
0:20:33pretty unfair not only like you said Electa does a lot more than that but the they're
0:20:39just different things and one reason I think that Amazon has seen success is that they
0:20:45do open up what they call skills to anybody so like you know Federico could write a skill
0:20:51you know you could say, "Oh I did." Yeah, Vittucci teaching me Italian. Like,
0:20:58anybody can do almost anything with it. Now contrast that with Apple, with
0:21:02HomeKit, and with Siri. SiriKit is only open to select types of applications and
0:21:07you have to to fit within Apple's template of how you use it. And HomeKit
0:21:12is only available to hardware manufacturers that go through from what
0:21:17seems to be from the outside an
0:21:19extremely difficult process to get
0:21:21approved. Now there's pros and cons to
0:21:24both, right? Amazon has wide-reaching
0:21:27skills and Apple's is more narrow. Now you
0:21:32may say that Apple's may be higher
0:21:33quality or more secure because they're
0:21:35controlling everything. It's not really
0:21:37the debate for today. They're just
0:21:38different and I think that comparing
0:21:42Amazon and Apple in these arenas is just
0:21:45tricky. They're not, it's not apples to
0:21:47oranges it's not really the same thing but you know the time is coming where
0:21:54Apple is going to have to address this I think this is where we get into the Phil
0:21:57Schiller interview which was really about the iPhone anniversary but this
0:22:00came up that you know he says you know Apple has a strong platform in Siri and
0:22:06in the iPhone and Amazon doesn't well all that takes is Amazon having an
0:22:14to Apple potentially for iOS.
0:22:16There's already a third party one
0:22:17I think all three of us use.
0:22:18There are ways that Amazon can get more places
0:22:21and we're seeing that at CES.
0:22:23And yes, some of that stuff's gonna be vaporware
0:22:25because it's CES.
0:22:27Stop emailing us now, we know that happens.
0:22:30I think a lot of people write off CES completely for that.
0:22:33I think that's the wrong approach.
0:22:34But you cannot deny that Amazon is out there in more places,
0:22:38out there doing more things than Apple.
0:22:39And is Apple gonna catch up?
0:22:41or is Apple going to sit this round out?
0:22:44I think the three of us agree that Apple
0:22:48needs to make a move here.
0:22:49- I agree with the CES argument to a point,
0:22:53but when Ford are integrating Amazon's assistant product
0:22:56into their cars, that's not-- - It's a real thing.
0:22:59- That's not vaporware, right?
0:23:01Like maybe somebody who made something
0:23:03that looks like the Echo, but is a wall lamp
0:23:08and it's a company you've never heard of before,
0:23:10then yeah, I mean I can get what you're saying,
0:23:12but for deciding that they're gonna integrate this
0:23:15instead of maybe using some of their sync features
0:23:17that they've been creating over the last 10 years,
0:23:20that's a pretty big deal.
0:23:22- With Microsoft, by the way.
0:23:24Yeah, the F-150 is not vaporware.
0:23:26These are real things.
0:23:28And so that's one reason I find the Phil Schiller quote
0:23:31a little bit troubling.
0:23:33He says that Siri is great because as the assistant with you
0:23:37We've heard that line from people for a while now.
0:23:41Schiller's not the first one to say it.
0:23:43And that is true, there is value in that.
0:23:47And it is true that for the most part,
0:23:50unless I go out and buy a new pickup truck,
0:23:52I'm from Tennessee, it could happen,
0:23:53but unless I go buy a new Ford
0:23:55or buy a smartwatch with this in it,
0:23:57then my access to the Amazon ecosystem
0:24:01is limited to my office and to my kitchen
0:24:03where I have the Echo.
0:24:04So he's right about that.
0:24:06And I think he's right that there are certain circumstances
0:24:09where you really wanna have a display.
0:24:11And he really hammers on this in this back channel interview
0:24:14that Siri is useful because it can surface stuff
0:24:18on a display, and that's, again, that's not wrong,
0:24:20that's not incorrect, but I do think it's incomplete.
0:24:24That a lot of stuff, like the reason
0:24:27that Amazon has seen success is there are times
0:24:30where you don't care about a screen.
0:24:32And that I think why these things end up in kitchens
0:24:35is because people have, you know,
0:24:36they're elbow deep in making muffins
0:24:38and they need to shout a question to a cylinder
0:24:40and the cylinder can answer them.
0:24:41And it gets it right, like 100% of the time.
0:24:44They are different markets to a degree.
0:24:47There's overlap, but they are slightly different markets.
0:24:49And there are rumors that a future Echo will have a display.
0:24:54I'm telling you, if they do that,
0:24:55like I'm gonna upgrade the one in my kitchen
0:24:56'cause there are times where I want that.
0:24:58And he's right that Siri has access
0:25:00to a bunch of your content,
0:25:01a bunch of information that Amazon doesn't.
0:25:04Amazon doesn't have my photo library.
0:25:06They don't have my calendars and contacts like Siri does.
0:25:10But that hasn't stopped me
0:25:13from using Amazon's product heavily.
0:25:17So I think he's sort of like,
0:25:20I think his argument's a little off base
0:25:22and it's one of those things we were talking yesterday.
0:25:25I don't know if Schiller blasting the Echo
0:25:28is like Apple being coy,
0:25:29like Steve Jobs saying no one wants to watch a video
0:25:31on an iPod and then three months later
0:25:33announces the video iPod.
0:25:35Or if it's they really don't get it
0:25:38and they really think they are making the right decision.
0:25:42And I can't tell which it is.
0:25:44I hope that they're just being coy
0:25:45'cause I think they should be in this space.
0:25:47But it is a little concerning that, you know,
0:25:49maybe Schiller's writing this off and they don't need to be.
0:25:52- Yeah, this lends into like another kind of concern
0:25:55that I have right now, which is like,
0:25:58The two kind of agreed upon strands of technology that the majority of the large companies are going down
0:26:05Are you have a voice assistant?
0:26:07Technology like voice assistant
0:26:09machines, you know like these
0:26:12dedicated
0:26:13boxes
0:26:14Or and VR and right now Apple seems to be downplaying
0:26:19Both of these right that they say that the canisters are not in not what we want
0:26:25What we want is something that is in our pockets all the time, which may be, you know, to add a straddle to that
0:26:32Which is yes, I understand could be very good. But my argument is where do people actually use these things? I
0:26:37Don't think people use them on the subway
0:26:40So I don't know how necessary is I think having something that has a ton of microphones in it because it's a big tube
0:26:49It's maybe better depending on where it wants to be used
0:26:53like the places I want to use this stuff is in my home and I can like cover my entire home with one
0:26:59of the big cylinders and one of the little ones right no matter what it is and I'm going to cover
0:27:03the majority of my house as long as I speak loudly enough and then the other is virtual reality which
0:27:08most likely is just going to have effects in gaming but we don't know
0:27:13and these seem to be like two of the biggest things that are happening right now and
0:27:18Apple is downplaying both of them and doesn't appear to have anything in those areas and
0:27:22And this is either a good thing, right?
0:27:25That they're focusing on something
0:27:26which is gonna end up being more important,
0:27:27like the way that we know Apple to be, right?
0:27:30Like, oh, that they're working on AR
0:27:32and we don't know it yet
0:27:33because we haven't seen Apple's product.
0:27:35But when we do, we realize that everything else is silly
0:27:38or they're missing and that they end up
0:27:42in a Microsoft situation or a Facebook situation
0:27:46where they miss the boat on something
0:27:48and that it ends up hurting them in the long run.
0:27:51I actually don't know what one it is,
0:27:54but I feel like that I'm willing to ask the question
0:27:58more than in previous times.
0:28:01- And it is important to remember that,
0:28:05like Apple, if you look at the iPod
0:28:08and the iPhone in particular,
0:28:10and the Apple Watch to a lesser degree,
0:28:12Apple is okay sitting on the sidelines
0:28:16watching a market figure itself out,
0:28:19and then they come in.
0:28:19So they weren't the first music player,
0:28:21they weren't the first smartphone,
0:28:22they weren't the first smartwatch wearable thing.
0:28:26And they come in and they usually do it better,
0:28:30it's usually more expensive,
0:28:31but they end up dominating in one way or another.
0:28:34So this conversation we are having,
0:28:37I agree with you, it's worth having.
0:28:40I think it's particularly interesting this time
0:28:41because voice cylinders have taken off super quickly,
0:28:46like more quickly than these other
0:28:47product categories did, I think.
0:28:49And is this another case of Apple letting the market
0:28:53figure itself out?
0:28:54Or maybe they were caught flat-footed,
0:28:55they weren't working on this at all,
0:28:56and then all of a sudden Amazon comes out with this product
0:28:59that a lot of people, at least nerds, seem to really like,
0:29:01and now they gotta deal with it?
0:29:04I don't know what's going on internally, of course,
0:29:06but there is that conversation to be had
0:29:07that Apple does this.
0:29:09They wait for things to settle out enough
0:29:13where they can come in and dominate.
0:29:17So maybe that's happening now,
0:29:18Maybe that's happening with these other things,
0:29:20but maybe it's not.
0:29:21And until they ship something, we don't know,
0:29:24so we have to have this conversation.
0:29:25But it is interesting, and that's like,
0:29:28I said this yesterday on a show,
0:29:30that that's when I will worry about Apple
0:29:33when they do miss something big like mobile,
0:29:38like Microsoft missed mobile.
0:29:39I don't think they've missed anything big yet,
0:29:42but there's always that concern, right,
0:29:43that they do miss this, or they do miss if VR takes off.
0:29:46Robert Scoble yesterday said that Apple is going to ship AR glasses this year.
0:29:50Who knows what's happening, but that like wait-and-see approach like works to a
0:29:55degree, but if things get too far out of hand and Apple's not there then that's
0:30:00when I really start to worry. I think especially about assistants. We cannot
0:30:05agree that that it's convenient to have one on a phone and it's convenient to
0:30:09have one with the display, but all these discussions they all come
0:30:15down for me at least to a simple question. Do you believe it's convenient
0:30:20also to have an assistant in your home that is separate from the phone? So to
0:30:27have an assistant that can hear you from a distance, that can talk more
0:30:32loudly and that doesn't need a display. Because to say "well yeah but Siri has
0:30:39the display" that's missing the point. We cannot agree that it's convenient to
0:30:42have an assistant on your main device but is it also useful to have a separate
0:30:47voice that can hear you inside your home no matter where you are and I'm gonna
0:30:56follow up to the question with is it also useful to have an assistant that
0:31:02can talk to a bunch of different services a bunch of different products
0:31:06and apps instead of limited domains because we shouldn't I think a lot of
0:31:13people they're trying to downplay the echo and Amazon I'm not saying that it's
0:31:19a huge threat to Apple right now because a lot of people reply with some kind of
0:31:23straw man to this problem it's not like Amazon is replacing Apple or that the
0:31:30echo is winning. In the grand scheme of things they probably haven't solved that many either.
0:31:35- Exactly, it's just a, you know, if you're a product person,
0:31:38I think people inside Apple are having these discussions.
0:31:41- Yeah.
0:31:42- So we can all agree that Siri on the iPhone is awesome,
0:31:46is convenient, works with a bunch of different languages,
0:31:49and it's got an interface,
0:31:50and arguably we can say it is getting better.
0:31:52But the flip side is, when you're inside your home
0:31:56and you're free to talk,
0:31:58you don't have people staring at you
0:32:00because you're talking to an assistant,
0:32:02Is it a good idea to have an assistant that can talk more loudly, that is a dedicated device, that it's only job, it's to be a voice only, not a voice first, voice only product?
0:32:15And I think the answer is yes, because as we're seeing, it's not like it's just, you know, a bunch of podcasters are falling in love with this new product.
0:32:26It's gaining mindshare.
0:32:29It's been on TV shows.
0:32:30It's been on the news.
0:32:31It's a good idea.
0:32:32And I think Apple is thinking about this and I think it's you know, it would be silly to say no
0:32:39No, Apple is never gonna do that because we have Siri because you have a display. Yes, we have a display
0:32:43Which is awesome
0:32:44But is it also useful to have a speaker to have an assistant that is only a voice that replies to you
0:32:51And I think we're gonna see Siri in this form eventually because it is a good idea
0:32:55funnily enough
0:32:56One of my favorite things about the echo is one of the things that we all laughed at when we first saw it
0:33:02That it is in a fixed place in my home because I have a location to direct my query to
0:33:09which if I'm using my iPhone for this
0:33:13it's not necessarily where I
0:33:17Think it is at all times
0:33:20Right like it moves and I understand that it's good that you might have it on your body
0:33:24But there's something about it
0:33:25You know my echo being in a place in the kitchen
0:33:28That like if I'm watching TV, I can turn around and talk to it
0:33:33like there is just something that makes sense to me and that it is in a fixed place in which I direct my
0:33:38Question towards and I actually quite like that and it's funny. You know, this is this is a thing that we're all
0:33:44We're all guilty of judging things before we try them and I think the echo was definitely one of those
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0:36:27Alright so Steven you got your hands on one of these little Apple Watch stands right?
0:36:31Yeah so the Elago W3 it is a silicone Apple Watch stand that looks like a tiny baby Macintosh
0:36:41And so, of course I bought it.
0:36:44It was like 15 bucks on Amazon or something.
0:36:47I showed up this weekend.
0:36:48I put a little review video together over the weekend.
0:36:51And I'm, I have used since, I guess since nightstand mode,
0:36:56which is what, watch OS 2,
0:36:58I have used a stand for my watch at night
0:37:02on my bedside table.
0:37:04So it puts it up and you know,
0:37:05it looks like a little alarm clock.
0:37:07If you bump the table or really just even touch it almost,
0:37:11the watch will wake up and give you the time in a very low light situations.
0:37:16There's not like blinding which is really nice.
0:37:19You can set it to do the alarm with the buttons.
0:37:20I don't ever do that.
0:37:21But I've and I've used one from Studio Neat the material dock.
0:37:25That's what I have on my nightstand table.
0:37:27Now it has a phone and a watch stand kind of in one
0:37:30and I'm going to continue to use that.
0:37:31I really like that dock,
0:37:33but this one was just too adorable to pass up spending some time with.
0:37:38So you drop the watch into it,
0:37:41it's cut out where the face of the watch
0:37:43is the face of the Macintosh, and it's just a lot of fun.
0:37:47So if you are looking for an Apple Watch saying
0:37:49I don't want to spend a bunch of money
0:37:50and want something adorable,
0:37:52I would point you to this thing.
0:37:55- Yeah, I use the Studio Neat Material Dock.
0:37:58I have one of the ones for the phone and the watch,
0:38:03and then I have one for just the phone
0:38:04that I have on my desk, and I love it.
0:38:08I know that obviously Studio Neat are friends of the show, but this is a product that I
0:38:13was really looking for and I'm a big fan of it.
0:38:15I think the best thing about it is that it's not like adhesive, but there's this rubber
0:38:22stuff that they put on the bottom and it keeps it completely stuck to the desk.
0:38:28Which is fantastic.
0:38:31You can pick up your iPhone and just take it straight out and you can just pick it up
0:38:35put it down and then the you know it's really nice to have the watch there and
0:38:39then the watches in nightstand mode it's I love that product.
0:38:41Yeah I use the Barkin Valet iPhone and watch. Of course you do you so fancy.
0:38:49Yeah I like modern style docks and you know these kind of accessories.
0:38:54That doesn't use nightstand mode does it? Because it holds the watch sort of vertically?
0:38:58No I don't use nightstand mode because I wear the watch at night. So it's because of
0:39:03this that I decided to put this dock not in my bedroom on my nightstand but on in
0:39:08the kitchen / living room where both Silvia and I if we need to we can place
0:39:13our iPhones and watches when we need a quick charge so yeah yeah it looks nice
0:39:19it's on an IKEA piece of furniture which is a you know nice contrast between the
0:39:23black IKEA cabinet and the silver Apple style dock it's very nice fashionable
0:39:29- I know, wow.
0:39:31- Yeah, I like that there are a lot of options
0:39:33for this thing, that you can really pick something
0:39:36that looks the way you want it to look.
0:39:39It was nice, I mean, nightstand mode is something that,
0:39:43it's, I mean, we have a clock in our room, right?
0:39:47Like, the watch is next to my side of the bed,
0:39:49my wife can't see it, so it's nice for me,
0:39:52but it's something that I think some people
0:39:55get more use out of than others,
0:39:56but it's one of those things that Apple announces,
0:39:58Like, this is super clever.
0:40:01Like, it's one of the things that the watch
0:40:03kind of should do.
0:40:04It should be useful as a time piece at night, so.
0:40:06Good job.
0:40:08The big news this week though, shockingly guys,
0:40:12was not Apple Watch stands.
0:40:13I know we could talk about it all day,
0:40:15but yesterday marked the 10 year anniversary
0:40:18of the keynote in which Steve Jobs announced the iPhone.
0:40:23I think the three of us agree
0:40:24that it was his finest performance,
0:40:27perhaps the best product introduction,
0:40:29at least of our lifetimes, that I can think of.
0:40:31- No, no, perhaps, no, perhaps.
0:40:33Like, it is the single greatest product introduction.
0:40:36- And so we have a bunch of links
0:40:40in the show notes this week.
0:40:41Federico and I both wrote some stuff about it,
0:40:44put some stuff together.
0:40:45We have a link to the video.
0:40:47If you have an hour, just go watch the keynote again.
0:40:50It's outstanding.
0:40:52If you have eight hours,
0:40:54you can listen to episode 30 of The Prompt,
0:40:56is the show that preceded this one.
0:40:58- Doesn't last seven hours, that episode, I'm sure.
0:41:02- I listened to it this week,
0:41:03it's like two and a half hours long.
0:41:06Well, the two of you and then a very sick version of me
0:41:10walk through the keynote and it totally holds up.
0:41:14I think the single proudest I've ever been
0:41:19of a single podcast episode is this episode.
0:41:23And then we also have the Wayback Machine link
0:41:27for the original iPhone website,
0:41:29which I had totally forgotten how it's all black
0:41:31and really crazy looking.
0:41:33But the original specs and Apple trying
0:41:35to make the phone look small.
0:41:37Some funny stuff there with age.
0:41:39Age makes everything funny.
0:41:41So go check all that out if you haven't read or seen
0:41:44or listened to much about the iPhone anniversary.
0:41:47There's lots of good content out there.
0:41:49But I wanted to see what y'all's first memories
0:41:53of the iPhone, what were your first reactions?
0:41:57What were your first thoughts?
0:41:59Federico, what about you?
0:42:01- This is gonna be bad for my reputation.
0:42:06I think I talked about this before, but there we go again.
0:42:09I didn't watch the original iPhone presentation at the time.
0:42:13I had no idea what was going on.
0:42:16I'm pretty sure I didn't even know what Apple was.
0:42:19I mean, I knew what Apple was,
0:42:20but from a heard from a friend kind of perspective.
0:42:25I knew that the Macintosh was a different type of computer,
0:42:29but I was not a tech nerd.
0:42:30I was in high school.
0:42:31I only cared about video games, basically, and music.
0:42:35So I didn't own the original iPhone,
0:42:39but that changed quickly after high school.
0:42:43I tried my, I had a very short
0:42:47and unsuccessful university experience.
0:42:50I dropped out, I started my first job at an eBay reseller shop, and my first boss, my
0:42:58first and only boss actually, he was into the idea of buying an iPhone from the United
0:43:05States.
0:43:06So at the time, the first iPhone never actually launched in Italy, and that didn't stop a
0:43:12bunch of enterprising Italians from buying an iPhone on eBay and using one of the first
0:43:18jailbreaks/unlock. I think the unlock system was made by a guy named Zibri, and the jailbreak was called the Z-Phone type of method,
0:43:31which basically allowed you to unlock the carrier of the iPhone and use it on different international carriers, besides AT&T in the United States.
0:43:42So I remember my boss, he found this guy on eBay, and he bought two iPhones for some reason.
0:43:49It was the kind of lavish person who liked to spend money.
0:43:52So he bought two iPhones, and I remember these two boxes coming into the store. I was working.
0:43:58These two boxes coming to the store, and we opened the iPhones. I think there were two 8 gigabyte models.
0:44:05Yeah, and
0:44:07inside the boxes were the AT&T SIMs
0:44:11that the iPhone came with. So I was very impressed by the, you know, dedication of this eBay seller.
0:44:17So my boss uses this iPhone for a while and of course
0:44:22I was in charge of looking up all of the jailbreak techniques because he was also a lazy person.
0:44:26He only liked to spend money. So I
0:44:29did the research about the jailbreak. So I, you know,
0:44:34did the unlock
0:44:37thing on his phone and that's when I
0:44:40first tried installer. So installer was this, I remember it was like the precursor of Cydia
0:44:47you know for the jailbreak. It was like an alternative app store before the App Store that allowed you to install
0:44:53custom software on the iPhone
0:44:56you know the first third-party apps on the first third-party tweaks, and it had I remember it had a blue icon
0:45:03so a couple of months passed it's now
0:45:07well into
0:45:102008 and
0:45:12The thing about my boss was a weird guy
0:45:15He was also very easily distracted
0:45:18So he used the iPhone for a few months and then he I think he fell in love with some kind of different smartphone
0:45:25So it's like yeah, I don't care about the iPhone anymore
0:45:27At that point I had bought an iPod touch because I was really into this idea of you know
0:45:35iPhone OS and what Apple was doing and so my boss was not using his original iPhone anymore
0:45:41I was like, hey, what if you what if you sell your iPhone to me?
0:45:45I was like sure give me like a couple of hundred euros and you can have it
0:45:49So I bought an iPhone from my boss and I just fell in love with it
0:45:55Until I bought the 3GS
0:45:58in
0:46:002009
0:46:02So I used my my my boss's original iPhone
0:46:06When the 3G actually came out and didn't buy the iPhone 3G. I used the original iPhone until 3GS in
0:46:13They came out in I think in Italy in July 2009 back when iPhones used to launch in the summer
0:46:19so I used my original iPhone for about a year I would say and
0:46:23You know, it was the beginning of
0:46:26You know my career eventually I was fired. I started my stories and I started writing about iPhone apps and
0:46:31I actually regret not being into Apple news, not following the original presentation of Steve Jobs back then.
0:46:41I watched it, of course, later.
0:46:45But yeah, it was a strange type of getting into the Apple scene, getting into this whole iPhone thing.
0:46:54If anything, I mean, I'm thankful to my boss for being that kind of person who buys an iPhone from
0:47:01an American on eBay, even if he cannot use it and tells me that I should do the research to how to
0:47:07do the unlock. I'm thankful for that because in his own weird way, he got me into this whole thing.
0:47:15And now I'm talking to you guys. So there we go. Yeah.
0:47:18I was already deep within at this point. Like, I had iPods. I watched the presentation on my iMac.
0:47:24and I don't really remember much of watching the presentation. I believe I have a memory
0:47:31of watching the presentation but it's one of those memories in which I can see myself
0:47:35which means it's probably not true. What I do remember though is like on that evening
0:47:42showing family members different parts of it like the the rubber band scrolling and
0:47:47stuff and being like "look at this!" like I couldn't help but show people because I
0:47:52I was so excited about it. And then the other thing that I have a memory of is actually
0:47:57buying my iPhone, which for us in the UK came much later. We didn't get ours in June. I
0:48:06think it was more towards the end of that year of 2007. And I remember like having my
0:48:14brother, he left after school and he stood in line for me because I was working at the
0:48:20time and I went and kind of met him. We were third in line and then the checkout system
0:48:25at the car phone warehouse is what the store is called, it's a chain of cell phone stores
0:48:30here called the car phone warehouse. They started when phones were in cars. Their checkout
0:48:36system completely failed when the iPhone went on sale because it was like complete overload
0:48:42so we had to pay in cash and because we paid in cash that was why I didn't buy the little
0:48:48Apple Bluetooth headset thing.
0:48:49I was just gonna get that,
0:48:50'cause I was just so excited about everything.
0:48:52I wanted all of it, and I couldn't get out enough cash
0:48:54to buy both things, so luckily I dodged that bullet.
0:48:58- Yeah, it wasn't a great product.
0:49:01- So, yeah, it's like the father of the AirPods, right?
0:49:04- It is, it's a great, great grandfather.
0:49:07So I did not watch the keynote the day of.
0:49:11Of course, I wasn't a livestream unit
0:49:12following along with blogs.
0:49:13I was actually traveling, visiting family.
0:49:16I did work as an Apple retail employee at the time.
0:49:19So I remember getting back to my cell phone service and a bunch of people texting me going
0:49:26crazy that Apple had done this insane thing.
0:49:30I went that evening to dial up my aunt's house looking at those original iPhone web pages
0:49:35like trying to squeeze every drop of information out of them.
0:49:39Trying to get my head around it.
0:49:41I'm not quite sure when I actually watched the keynote video.
0:49:44Apple was publishing them at that point, I think in iTunes,
0:49:47but it took a little while to get them.
0:49:48It wasn't like it is now.
0:49:50And I just remember being just really, really blown away.
0:49:54I ended up buying one about three, three or four weeks
0:49:58after they went on sale.
0:50:00So like if you've been full time at the Apple store
0:50:03for a set amount of time, you got a free one
0:50:04and I missed that cut off by like a week and a half
0:50:08or like two weeks.
0:50:10- Oh no.
0:50:11- And I begged my assistant manager,
0:50:13who was a friend of mine,
0:50:14and stole a friend of mine, I was like,
0:50:15"Please, you gotta let me in on this,"
0:50:17and he couldn't do it.
0:50:18And so what he did do is they were coming in very slowly
0:50:21and he placed that one aside for me,
0:50:23which he probably wasn't supposed to do.
0:50:26And then so I was able to purchase one.
0:50:29And so I was very early.
0:50:30I've owned every one of them since,
0:50:33except the 5C and the 5S.
0:50:35I did switch to Android for a little while in 2011,
0:50:37but I switched back.
0:50:39- Man, I forgot that.
0:50:40You were a Droid person.
0:50:41I carried a Palm Pre Plus for like three or four months,
0:50:45and then a Droid for like a year, and then came back.
0:50:49So it's always been, it's hard to believe
0:50:54it's been 10 years.
0:50:55It's really hard to overstate the impact that it's had.
0:51:00Not only on Apple, I mean obviously Apple,
0:51:02it's been huge, their stock is way up.
0:51:04In that prompt 30, I shared how much
0:51:08I sold my employee stock for,
0:51:10and if I'd held onto it, I would've made a lot more money.
0:51:13But I wouldn't own it now anyway,
0:51:15since I cover it for a living,
0:51:17but it was kind of funny to hear that.
0:51:19- Now you gotta own it, man.
0:51:20Boost that price up, right?
0:51:22- That's right, yeah, the whole thing is a scam.
0:51:24But the three of us really were like
0:51:28the perfect age for this.
0:51:30Like we can remember a life before it.
0:51:32- Oh yeah.
0:51:33- I was 20 at this announcement, 21 when it came out,
0:51:38And it is really similar to people
0:51:41whose parents bought them an Apple II
0:51:44when they were in middle school,
0:51:46or even elementary school, and they learned to program
0:51:47in basic on an Apple II, right?
0:51:49Or they got a Commodore, or they got a PC.
0:51:53Those very early computers, people who are now
0:51:57in their 40s or even early 50s who were kids
0:52:01during the personal PC revolution,
0:52:03we are that age for the smartphone.
0:52:06And I wrote a little bit about this yesterday,
0:52:09I think all three of us had, like,
0:52:11we owe so much, not only to the iPhone,
0:52:14but to what it created, right?
0:52:17To what it made possible.
0:52:20So things like podcasting, they existed
0:52:23before Apple had put it into iTunes and the iPod in 2005,
0:52:27but it wasn't until the iPhone and the App Store
0:52:30that podcasting, at least tech podcasting,
0:52:33really was accessible to a lot more people.
0:52:35And I'd forgotten this, actually found the article.
0:52:38Remember when Apple rejected the podcast client,
0:52:42the person who wrote it because it rotated iTunes?
0:52:44Yeah, that was super fun.
0:52:46Obviously very different today.
0:52:47Now the iPhone is a home to a rich ecosystem
0:52:50of podcast clients.
0:52:52And if you look at relay stats,
0:52:54I mean the iPhone just dominates
0:52:55the way people listen to our shows.
0:52:57And things like social media, right?
0:53:00Things like Twitter, like the three of us met
0:53:03more or less on Twitter.
0:53:05- That's 100% how it happened.
0:53:07- Yeah.
0:53:08- Yeah, like my pitch to Federico to join me and you
0:53:13was a direct message on Twitter.
0:53:14- Yes, yes it was.
0:53:17- And you know, the people that we work with
0:53:20and like the blogs that Federico and I write,
0:53:22like those are all possible because of the web
0:53:25being in our pocket all the time.
0:53:27Like I don't know about Mac stories, but on 512,
0:53:28the majority of my traffic is mobile now.
0:53:30Like that crossed a couple of years ago.
0:53:33And that's a real thing.
0:53:35And you have to think about mobile first design
0:53:37and mobile first content.
0:53:38All that stuff wouldn't be here
0:53:41if the iPhone hadn't been a success.
0:53:44And I was just thinking through what line of work,
0:53:47what part of the economy, what part of the world
0:53:50hasn't been touched by the smartphone.
0:53:52And it's really hard to come up with an example.
0:53:55It's just everywhere.
0:53:56- I don't know if it's the same for you guys,
0:53:58but I was thinking about this this week especially.
0:54:02I remember life before the smartphone, before the internet everywhere.
0:54:07But I also don't really remember it.
0:54:13Like, it almost doesn't make any sense.
0:54:15That there was a time where you couldn't look up maps on your phone or talk to anyone for free.
0:54:23Like, these things, they were started, kickstarted by the iPhone and by the App Store.
0:54:30But I don't know, maybe it's the fact that we're getting older, could be, and maybe it's the fact that it's been 10 years.
0:54:38But I struggle to remember how it used to be.
0:54:43I remember when my parents and I went on road trips, we had to actually take out fold-out maps with us.
0:54:51And now you just walk out and you fire up Google Maps or Apple Maps on your phone and you can get to anywhere.
0:54:58So it is difficult for me to remember how it used to be because it's been such a
0:55:02fundamental change to society, to the way that we do everything.
0:55:07I struggle to remember how it used to be. I know I used to have other phones.
0:55:11I know it used to be different. It just doesn't make sense when I think about it.
0:55:16Yeah, I agree. It's like I know that I lived that life.
0:55:19Yes. Right? Like I know I did because I was 18 years old.
0:55:23Right? So like I have memories of my life, many memories where I didn't have a
0:55:27smartphone, but I now think of it in like a, how, how was that true?
0:55:34Exactly.
0:55:35How was it possible?
0:55:36My first trip that I took abroad on my own, like it was my girlfriend at the time.
0:55:44The iPhone 3G came out the day before.
0:55:51It's like every trip I have ever taken where I am in control of where I'm going
0:55:57has been powered by GPS in my smartphone.
0:56:00Yeah.
0:56:02I never took a trip before that.
0:56:03And like, and I can't imagine doing that.
0:56:07Cause it's like, for me, it's like knowing where I am on a map is how I travel.
0:56:12And without that, it's like, I mean, I can read a map, but I'm way less confident
0:56:18about what I'm doing and where I'm going.
0:56:20Like with my iPhone, I'm able to walk somewhere,
0:56:24go somewhere without like putting constant focus to the map.
0:56:28And that is like such a powerful thing.
0:56:31And it's one of the myriad of things
0:56:36in ways in which the iPhone has touched and changed my life.
0:56:39- Yeah, it really is such a change,
0:56:44like so fundamentally different before and after.
0:56:47And you know, people had taste of it before, right?
0:56:49Like if you were cool like me in college
0:56:52and carried a Newton so you could do your email in class.
0:56:55Those of us who were really ahead of the curve
0:56:58had a little bit of it.
0:57:00But for like, what the iPhone really has done
0:57:04is that it has given, like what Apple calls
0:57:07in that original webpage, high technology
0:57:10to like to so many people.
0:57:12And yes, it should be more affordable
0:57:14and yes, there's still parts of the world
0:57:16where it's not made an impact
0:57:17the way it has in other places.
0:57:19But it has taken technology and put it in the hands
0:57:23of more people than ever.
0:57:24I mean, how many people just have a smartphone
0:57:27as their only computer?
0:57:28And that the only way to the internet they have
0:57:31is through an iPhone or through some other smartphone.
0:57:34That is a serious change,
0:57:38like economic, social change in the world.
0:57:43And in 2007, it was just this clever, you know,
0:57:47phone that you could prank call Starbucks on if you were Steve Jobs.
0:57:51But I think even then, if you read interviews with Apple at the time or some videos of Steve
0:57:57Jobs making the rounds, I think they knew it was a big deal, but I think it was impossible
0:58:02to really tell.
0:58:03I certainly didn't foresee it coming.
0:58:06I don't really think anyone really did understand just what it could do in a really short period
0:58:13of time.
0:58:14I think by the time we were like the iPhone 4 or 4s like it was it was turning the corner from
0:58:20something that like nerdy people had to
0:58:23like
0:58:25Regular everyday people like people who have no idea what relay FM is like it's hard to believe they're out there
0:58:31But they are are there those people do they even exist?
0:58:33It's it's hard to say but you know, you know what I'm saying? Like it made the turn and
0:58:37And now it is making a turn
0:58:40Into countries and into markets and into parts of the world
0:58:44that have never had technology before.
0:58:46You know, we went from, and this is why,
0:58:48there's all this angst, right?
0:58:49We went from the PC and the Mac to mobile devices
0:58:53and there are people on either side of that divide
0:58:55and there's lots of, you know, lots of angst there.
0:58:58But it's now moving into parts of the world
0:59:00where that divide doesn't exist
0:59:02because the personal PC never,
0:59:04couldn't make a dent there, right?
0:59:05Due to infrastructure, due to cost,
0:59:08but the smartphone can and that is really incredible.
0:59:11So this is the first of the two birthdays of the iPhone, right?
0:59:16We'll be talking about this again in like six months or something.
0:59:19Yeah, June 29th.
0:59:21Happy birthday iPhone.
0:59:24Oh man, I feel like I need a hug right now.
0:59:27Oh, it's okay.
0:59:29I don't know.
0:59:31Just having a moment.
0:59:34Yeah.
0:59:37This week's episode is also brought to you by our friends over at Blue Apron, the company
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1:02:00So last week there was a post on Medium about Medium, it's like the most Medium something
1:02:06could be.
1:02:09The title is called "Renewing Medium's Focus" and Ev Williams basically outlines that Medium's
1:02:16business model is not working, they are changing business model, they are moving away from
1:02:21ads and looking at potentially doing a more direct support model.
1:02:28But the thing about this post is they kind of say that they want a new business model
1:02:34without outlining what the business model is.
1:02:37And they've decided to fire all of their salespeople, scale down the company and then say we're
1:02:45not sure what we're going to do yet, but trust us, we got this.
1:02:52This isn't, I think, a very strong showing from Medium.
1:02:57me of the gif that Steven often shares of the garbage truck on fire just driving. I
1:03:04don't have a good feeling about this.
1:03:08Again, media is a company full of people. We feel sorry for the people that lost their
1:03:12jobs, of course.
1:03:13Yes, of course we do.
1:03:14My understanding is, you know, I like seeing this, like, when you see something like this
1:03:19happen, and then you see tweets from people at Tumblr who are like "Hey, come work for
1:03:22us!" Although I don't know what Tumblr's standing is right now with, what is it, Al
1:03:26Altaba we have on the horizon?
1:03:28Yes.
1:03:29Altaba everyone.
1:03:30Altaba.
1:03:31And we'll find everything we need in it.
1:03:36Anyway, so one of the things that's really interesting to me about this is Medium's prior
1:03:43business model was trying to get publishers to come to Medium and publish there.
1:03:49We spoke about Backchannel earlier in the show.
1:03:52That is Steven Levy's Medium blog,
1:03:55which only exists on Medium, right?
1:03:57Like that is where it is.
1:03:59And Medium have been trying to convince companies
1:04:01to cross post and create original content to put there.
1:04:06And there's even, I wish I could remember where this was,
1:04:10but I saw a link of somebody, a publisher,
1:04:13who started their new Medium thing.
1:04:17- Yeah, on the very day. - Of the day.
1:04:19(laughing)
1:04:20- So this is a case of left hand not knowing
1:04:23what right hand is doing, right?
1:04:24Because obviously the team who is trying to encourage content
1:04:28was still encouraging content,
1:04:30not knowing that they were about to lose their jobs.
1:04:32- Yes. - That's really,
1:04:34that's really rough. - Rough, really rough.
1:04:36So I wanted to talk about this because
1:04:38there are some threads here which I'm seeing
1:04:41running through a few different places.
1:04:43One of them was, like a couple of months ago,
1:04:47I saw a piece on Daring Fireball,
1:04:49that was about, it was linked to,
1:04:54John was linking to something that Andy Bio wrote,
1:04:57where he's talking about how indie blogging
1:05:00seems to be changing, like there isn't as much
1:05:03focus put on it anymore, and that maybe people
1:05:05are moving more towards social networks
1:05:07to kind of get their messages across.
1:05:09But Andy makes the case for independent blogging
1:05:11and writing, because like nobody can shut him down,
1:05:15nobody can control what he says, nobody can control
1:05:17the URLs that he uses, like it's his place
1:05:20to do whatever he wants in.
1:05:21And it seems that more people these days
1:05:25are moving to different channels,
1:05:28different networks to share their stuff.
1:05:30So I've been thinking about this
1:05:32and I have a question for you both.
1:05:34Is there less independent blogging now
1:05:39because frankly it's becoming harder and harder
1:05:43to make money in that world,
1:05:45you know, with a lot of the tough web ad stuff that exists,
1:05:50which maybe the two of you can speak to a little bit
1:05:52if you want, I don't know if you want to.
1:05:54And is it because it's getting harder
1:05:57to make a living doing this,
1:05:59that people are pushing their content towards platforms
1:06:02like Twitter and Medium and maybe YouTube and podcasts,
1:06:06because you're able to maybe get your name out there,
1:06:10you're able to be on social networks,
1:06:12which are maybe at least likely to get you more fame
1:06:15or notoriety where it might not be able to secure you
1:06:18as much money, especially in the case of the social networks?
1:06:21- It's a very complex question
1:06:23that requires a very complex answer.
1:06:25First of all, I believe there's been a shift
1:06:27from bloggers to vloggers.
1:06:30So a lot of people are now on YouTube.
1:06:32A lot of people that 10 years ago
1:06:34would have probably written something,
1:06:36now they're shooting a video about it.
1:06:38The second part of my answer is,
1:06:41I think social networks and social platforms like Twitter, Facebook and Medium to an extent,
1:06:47they have been great equalizers.
1:06:50They have provided millions of people with an easy way to write, to share content, whether
1:06:57it's a video, a picture or text.
1:07:01They have succeeded because of the easy way to share or just the easier way to build a
1:07:08social graph and to find your friends or an audience. But I think there's a... we
1:07:15gotta differentiate between blogging as a job and blogging as a technology. I
1:07:23think there's fewer people maybe trying to pursue indie blogging as a job but I
1:07:32think the technology is of course still around. It hasn't gone anywhere. In fact
1:07:37We have better tools today than ever.
1:07:39Whether it's setting up your own server is easy, today is easier today,
1:07:44WordPress is better than ever, and there's all kinds of other tools you can use for blogging.
1:07:50I do believe there's...
1:07:54Part of it is a perception issue, that fewer people are trying to make money by writing online.
1:08:00But maybe it's also a trend, maybe it's also objectively true,
1:08:04that fewer people are trying to monetize indie blogging. And I believe part of the problem there is the simple, you know,
1:08:12simple economics. There's just more supply than demand.
1:08:17So we see some people shifting to YouTube, other people shifting to other type of online careers.
1:08:25I still believe
1:08:29it is necessary if you want to make
1:08:33writing, so blogging, your job, it is an utmost necessity that you own your stuff,
1:08:42that you don't cede control of the technology to other people, which is also
1:08:49the reason why I have been in the news, if you will, lately, because of...
1:08:54I was wondering if you were going to bring this up.
1:08:56I have been on the New York Times because of my decision to stop using Google AMP.
1:09:05Mr. Vitici. I'm sorry we didn't call you Mr. at the beginning.
1:09:08Yeah, talk to my assistant to schedule our next recording.
1:09:12This is the reason why I decided to remove Google AMP support for Mac stories.
1:09:18I didn't like the way that Google was rewriting my links in Google search.
1:09:22So there's a whole discussion to be made about controlling technology and your stuff and your content, use open formats.
1:09:30But to answer your question, Myke, I think technologically indie blogging is still around and better than ever.
1:09:39Economically, there's been a lot of changes that contribute to the different landscape that we have today.
1:09:47have today. So do you think though that people are moving more towards networks
1:09:52though, like in general? Yes, because I think we live in a more diversified world
1:09:58now than 10 years ago. I think it's easier for a kid in China to try to find
1:10:05an audience on a network that is allowed through the firewall. I think it's easier
1:10:09for a teenager to post some thoughts on Twitter or Facebook. I think it's easier
1:10:12for someone to go viral using YouTube and Facebook.
1:10:17Or taking a screenshot of notes and posting it on Instagram.
1:10:19Exactly. I think these networks, they remove a lot of barriers
1:10:23because there is a barrier. There is an audience barrier,
1:10:28there is a technological barrier to setting up a blog, setting up your own domain,
1:10:32which is why I believe we got to differentiate between doing this just to share
1:10:37and doing this to make a living.
1:10:40The technology is the same, the goal and the time that you gotta sink into this thing is profoundly different.
1:10:48Yeah, you know, I've been blogging at 512 pixels for over 8 years now.
1:10:55It's a really long time.
1:10:58And so I've seen some of this take place over the arc of my own blogging career, if you want to call it that.
1:11:09where I tried really hard, like in like 2010 and 2011,
1:11:13I really put my head down and like tried to see
1:11:16if I could make five-fold pixels into a job.
1:11:18And the answer then was no, that I couldn't do it.
1:11:23And honestly, the answer today still is no,
1:11:26that five-fold pixels, it makes money.
1:11:29Some months it makes better money than others.
1:11:32But it's not a job.
1:11:35Relay FM is my job.
1:11:36Relay FM is what pays my mortgage
1:11:39and keeps food on my table and keeps my kids in jackets.
1:11:42- How many jackets, Tony?
1:11:44- They grow so fast.
1:11:46- Okay.
1:11:46- I feel like there's a bigger discussion
1:11:48to be had about jackets.
1:11:50But maybe let's save it for another time.
1:11:53I feel like you feel strongly about jackets.
1:11:57- We decided to buy new coats for everyone,
1:11:59so it's on my mind.
1:12:00(laughing)
1:12:03And so I think, so like for me,
1:12:06like the way 512Pixels makes money
1:12:08is really simple. I have a sidebar ad run from a third-party company who I've
1:12:12partnered with like five years now and it doesn't make much money. It makes
1:12:17enough to cover the hosting. Like the site with just the sidebar ad for me
1:12:21breaks even and any money that I make each month is either through RSS ads
1:12:28which have risen and fallen in popularity over the time I've been doing
1:12:33them they're doing okay right now but for I think overall that that business
1:12:38model is hurting and they get a lot of people who have blogs who sell our set
1:12:41sponsorships are struggling with that I make money the other ways like
1:12:46affiliate links on Amazon like if you click that link under my video to buy
1:12:50the adorable Macintosh Apple watch stand I'll get a cut of that like I'm not
1:12:54ashamed of that whatever strip my coat off that's and that's so ethically wrong
1:13:00Yeah, I'm trying to boost the sales of wow. You should you should be ashamed of yourself
1:13:05How can you buy jackets with that dirty money?
1:13:09Money on your children's shoulders, man
1:13:13yeah, so
1:13:16So for me five little pixels is a part of of my
1:13:21Business it's a part of my income, but it's not
1:13:24The time I put into it. Honestly if I were to be brutally honest is not worth the money I make from it
1:13:29I do it because I love it and I do it because it's a place for me to get thoughts into the world.
1:13:34But blogging for me is not the business that it is for other people.
1:13:38It's still like a, and again, and I don't mean this in a disparaging way in any sense,
1:13:42but it still has remained more of like a hobby type project for you.
1:13:46Yeah, right. Like I said, if you look at the hours I spend during the work week,
1:13:50the vast majority are relay and 512 is a fun distraction from that. Now, what I've done
1:13:57over the last year is move the 5 pixels brand and expand it into YouTube.
1:14:03And for all the reasons you guys just talked about, right, that there's an audience there
1:14:07that my content really works well on video, that I can write about stuff, but if I can
1:14:11show people and I can be funny on video and I can make things that are interesting to
1:14:15watch, then they do well.
1:14:17And the YouTube channel does do well.
1:14:19And it, you know, again, it's not paying a lot of bills, but the YouTube channel does
1:14:25make money.
1:14:26It's not a lot.
1:14:27to make money on YouTube unless you're enormous,
1:14:29but it's making some, and it's making enough for me
1:14:31to justify doing it to an extent.
1:14:34And I think all of that stuff,
1:14:37like if someone who's been doing it for eight years,
1:14:39like Myke and I own an extremely successful
1:14:42podcast business, which we're gonna talk about in a second,
1:14:44like someone who's been doing it this long
1:14:46who has an audience, 512's readership is bigger than ever.
1:14:49Like 2016 was the most pages I've done ever in a year.
1:14:53I've got more RSS subscribers than ever.
1:14:55it's harder than ever to make money at it.
1:14:58And I think that hurts independent blogging
1:15:01if you look at independent blogging as a way, as a job.
1:15:05And I think, I honestly think that's the wrong way
1:15:07to look at it.
1:15:08There are people who can do that, right?
1:15:09There's people like Hotkey and Gruber who,
1:15:12and Jason, Snell, who blog and do podcasts for a living.
1:15:17But it started as writing, it started as a blog.
1:15:20I think that window is, I think that time has passed.
1:15:23I think that it's really hard to make that work now.
1:15:26But I'd agree with you Federico,
1:15:29that independent blogging in the sense of
1:15:31I'm really interested in something
1:15:33and I just wanna share it with the world,
1:15:34that that is richer than ever.
1:15:36And if you have niche content, like the pen addict,
1:15:39Brad Dowdy has made a career for himself
1:15:43in the pen space and with his company, NotCo.
1:15:46- Million page views a month.
1:15:48I just have to throw that in.
1:15:49- That's humongous, it's crazy.
1:15:53I have a niche in, it's much smaller than pens and paper,
1:15:57but I've carved a niche out for myself
1:15:58in the Apple historian realm.
1:16:00And you know that limits the size of 512.
1:16:02512 is bigger than ever, but I think it could be bigger
1:16:05if I were broader.
1:16:06And I just don't want to be broader, I don't have to be.
1:16:08So I talk about esoteric things,
1:16:10and the people who are interested in that love it,
1:16:11and people who aren't interested in it
1:16:12quit reading me years ago, and that's fine.
1:16:14You can find your spot, you can find what you're good at,
1:16:17you can hone your skill.
1:16:18But I think if you expect it to make a business out of it,
1:16:21that's really hard.
1:16:22Like that has nothing to do with the platform, right?
1:16:24Like you can be on WordPress, you can own it,
1:16:27which is what I like owning my content,
1:16:29like that I can have a database of all my stuff.
1:16:32But you know if that stuff is scary or like difficult
1:16:35or like too expensive, like there's lots of good
1:16:38hosted options and you can go do it.
1:16:39Like just go start writing, go start something.
1:16:41And that, I agree with you Federico, is easier than ever
1:16:44and the tools are better than ever.
1:16:46And I think like as a thing, blogging is fine.
1:16:49- YouTube is an interesting example
1:16:52is no matter how big you are with YouTube, there is money there immediately. Monetisation
1:17:03is built into the analytics. The promise of money is there immediately. All you need to
1:17:12do is get the views and that isn't the case with other types of independent stuff. So
1:17:19I think that's one of the reasons that YouTube is starting to win out, right?
1:17:22Like Federico said, and I agree that there seems to be more people vlogging than blogging,
1:17:26right?
1:17:27That seems to be the thing that's happening now is because if what you're looking to do
1:17:30is try and make some money from your side project, then of course you're going to consider
1:17:34the platform that has monetization built in a standard for everyone.
1:17:38It's available to everyone.
1:17:40All they need to do is get the views on their videos.
1:17:42Yeah, just use Clickbait like Myke.
1:17:45Yeah, I love it.
1:17:46I'm all about it and I bait all of my videos.
1:17:50Clickbait is a thing I stand by that Casey Neistat said
1:17:55about clickbait, which is that it's enticing but not false.
1:18:00- Yeah, I'm down with that.
1:18:01And I think it's interesting too,
1:18:02I do wanna talk about Relay and talk about the network effect
1:18:06but the shift from writing to video,
1:18:09like video is hard, at least it is for me,
1:18:11and part of that is that I have really high standards
1:18:14for myself, like I'm not one,
1:18:17I can't just sit down in front of a camera and just talk.
1:18:19Anything that I produce is like hours of me
1:18:22saying the same thing over and over
1:18:23and picking the one time I said it that I like.
1:18:25- You're not one of these people
1:18:27that just walks around with their iPhone in the street,
1:18:28right, is that what you're saying?
1:18:29- No, I wanna be one of those.
1:18:30- No, just Kraton's.
1:18:32- Because I don't have that gift,
1:18:33I don't have that skill set.
1:18:35I'm awkward and not funny
1:18:36and I have to work to be unawkward and funny.
1:18:38(laughing)
1:18:40But so many people, so many people are really good at that
1:18:44And so there's monetization,
1:18:45and some people just find that really comfortable.
1:18:47Where a lot of people find writing really difficult.
1:18:49I mean, Myke, you and I are different in this way,
1:18:51where I enjoy writing, I like to think I'm good at it,
1:18:55I like to think that I've improved.
1:18:57But the way that I solve problems,
1:18:58the way that I think about things is I write them out.
1:19:00And I don't process verbally very well.
1:19:04That's why I repeat myself on podcasts endlessly.
1:19:07I need to write it out first to think about it.
1:19:10And so for me, blogging was a better fit.
1:19:13But what's great about all this stuff is there are,
1:19:16there's all these different channels, right?
1:19:17And if Medium can get their act together,
1:19:20and I hope they can, and they can figure out a way
1:19:23to let people make money,
1:19:25and be successful, then that's great.
1:19:29And blogging needs that.
1:19:30Right now, if you want some back blogging thing,
1:19:33you have to open Patreon.
1:19:34And your number's a publican, that's weird.
1:19:36But if they can create a YouTube-like system for writing,
1:19:42That's great, thumbs up, way to go medium, I hope someone can make that work because
1:19:46blogging needs that.
1:19:48But it's just a very different approach than how it's traditionally been done.
1:19:52So I just want to, before we wrap up, I want to touch on something, which is right, we're
1:19:56talking about people should be independent and stuff, and we own a company where people
1:20:02produce content for us, right?
1:20:05Which is strange, because the people that have their shows on our network, they are
1:20:10part of relay FM. But my kind of feeling on this is that we do our very best to give everybody
1:20:18the adequate amount of independence that they need, right, to get their stuff done. We work
1:20:23with people to make all of our stuff better. But, you know, really, I mean, this is just
1:20:28something we talk about with everyone. If they want to go, if a show wants to leave,
1:20:32then we'll do everything we can to help people leave. Like, the content that our hosts produce
1:20:38is their content. We just give them the tools and the place and the processes underlying
1:20:46it all to make it happen. Is that fair, Steven, to say?
1:20:51It is. I think what we've tried to do is create an environment and create a set of tools for
1:20:57people to do their own thing. Sometimes we get questions about a topic on a show or a
1:21:03sponsor wants to know what a show is going to be about. The truthful answer is we don't
1:21:07know because we don't exercise editorial control and we have some some
1:21:10guidelines right like you can't say we have a naughty word list I don't say
1:21:14those words are you gonna get bleeped or knocked out of the master feed but like
1:21:17even then like that's that's all we've got we we I think have created a space
1:21:25where people can come in and be creative and like try things and talk about
1:21:29things they're interested in and use our CMS and use our tools and have access to
1:21:35our designer and access to our Slack.
1:21:37And for most of the shows, we can monetize them.
1:21:43And we sell ads, you know, Myke, you and I do that
1:21:46for the hosts, they get a cut, we get a cut.
1:21:49And I think it's been really successful.
1:21:54We haven't had a show leave, we've had shows turn over
1:21:56and shows come to an end and stuff,
1:21:57but we've never had anyone leave.
1:21:59And I'm sure that will happen one day.
1:22:01And I agree with you, we will do everything we can
1:22:04to give that person access to their content,
1:22:07to help them land on their feet wherever they end up
1:22:09if they want our help.
1:22:10Because at the end of the day,
1:22:13that content, it's their work, right?
1:22:19I'm not on, you aren't on our 25 shows.
1:22:22It's people doing their own outlines,
1:22:25doing their own research, doing their own recording,
1:22:27using our editors or doing their own editing.
1:22:31we've just created a framework for people to create within.
1:22:35And I remember when we first started Relay,
1:22:38our very first conversations were like,
1:22:40that's what we wanted to build.
1:22:42We wanted to build a company, we wanted to build a network,
1:22:45and we wanted to have jobs,
1:22:46but we wanted to really create a space
1:22:49for people to work within.
1:22:50And that is something that I think is a little unusual
1:22:55in podcasting, where a lot of networks
1:22:59have complete editorial control over their shows.
1:23:03It's a very different business, right,
1:23:04if you're doing NPR-style stuff,
1:23:06like Gimlet or Slate or those people.
1:23:09Totally different business model, not any better,
1:23:11not any worse than ours, just different.
1:23:14But this is how we've chosen to do it,
1:23:15because at the heart of it, at the end of the day,
1:23:18you and I, Myke, and Federico and Jason and everyone else,
1:23:21we're all creators, we all want to make stuff.
1:23:24You and I have a podcast network,
1:23:26so you and I can make podcasts, right?
1:23:29We needed a place to put our stuff,
1:23:31and we've been able to scale it up to other people.
1:23:34And so we give them the tools that we want to have,
1:23:37and we give them the freedom that we want to have,
1:23:39and I think it's been, I think it's worked out really well.
1:23:44- And one last thing before we do wrap up,
1:23:46'cause I guess it is related to this topic, I think,
1:23:49is that Manton Reese is currently working
1:23:53on a Kickstarter campaign to generate,
1:23:57I find it's hard to explain,
1:23:58it's like Twitter hosted somewhere else or something? Can you help me with that?
1:24:05Because I've backed this project because I like what he's trying to do but I'm
1:24:10struggling to understand the product that he's making.
1:24:14Yeah so it's and I hope I'm fair in my representation because it is a little
1:24:20complicated. Microdot blog is going to be a set of tools so it does have a
1:24:25timeline like Twitter but it's based on RSS so if you don't want to open the app
1:24:31and you just want to see everything Federico writes on his microblog then
1:24:35you can just like subscribe to it in your RSS reader and just get it there
1:24:40and never worry about being a social network so you can use it as like a
1:24:43blogging platform or you can use it as a as a social network I think there's also
1:24:49like going to be like WordPress plugins so you can like move content from your
1:24:54your actual blog to the social network.
1:24:57It's a couple different things,
1:24:59but I think the heart of it is you own your content.
1:25:02I have a recurring task in Todoist every six months
1:25:06to download my Twitter archive,
1:25:07because one day we're gonna wake up
1:25:08and Twitter's gonna be gone, just gone.
1:25:11And I would like my 10 years of talking about silly things,
1:25:15and so I download that every once in a while.
1:25:18Well, with this, you would have access to your stuff
1:25:20and you would be able to export it
1:25:24use it freely and openly. I think that he has a little bit of work to do to really
1:25:29flesh that out in the way that he explains it. The Kickstarter is about the
1:25:32book about independent blogging. Like, building the thing is sort of
1:25:37secondary to the Kickstarter project and I fully expect in talking to him and I
1:25:44fully expect that we will see more details about the the platform very soon.
1:25:52Like I it's totally real like there are people who have seen it there people who've been using it as my understanding like
1:25:58And I think that I think he'll do a clearer job explaining it
1:26:04but um, but I think the heart of it is you own your your content and
1:26:09You instead of having a centralized social network you can
1:26:14Put content into the system from from numerous places
1:26:17you can use the first party app or you can use something else because it's all API based and
1:26:21You know so I could have you know, theoretically my own blog and just write little things and it gets posted here automatically. So
1:26:28I'm excited by it. I think that
1:26:31The world I think at least our world that's sort of nerdy world like
1:26:36we sort of exist with Twitter as the water cooler and that's really fragile and
1:26:42I don't think Twitter will last at least in its current form. I think there will be a time where
1:26:48Like all this stuff that the three of us have had possible in our career because of Twitter like that won't be available to people
1:26:53anymore because Twitter will be drastically different or be gone and
1:26:57I don't think Facebook's the answer. I don't think I don't think people necessarily want all their other stuff mixed in
1:27:03So maybe this is it. I hope it is. I
1:27:05hope that there's an opportunity for
1:27:08This sort of community that we have on Twitter to either move or like regenerate in new ways new interesting ways
1:27:16somewhere else and I think man is onto something with that. Yeah, I think people should go check it out
1:27:21There'll be a link in our show notes, which of course you can find today over at relay.fm/connecting/124
1:27:26Thank you so much for
1:27:29Listening to this week's show if you want to find out more about my lovely co-hosts
1:27:35You should go to their independent blogging websites like 512 pixels dotnet for Steven and Mac stories dotnet for Federico
1:27:42Federico's on Twitter
1:27:43is out for tichy, Stephen is out at ISMH and I am at imyke, I M Y K E. Whilst those
1:27:49guys were talking about their real strengths around blogging, of course you can go to michaelsright.com
1:27:54for all of the latest sticker news that you've been hankering for. I'm sure that there's
1:28:00a real good audience for me there. Thanks again to Pingda Ministry Supply in Blue Apron
1:28:06for supporting this week's show. Thank you for listening. And maybe listen too, who knows?
1:28:10We'll be back next time.
1:28:11Until then, say goodbye, guys.
1:28:13- Adios, darche.
1:28:14- Adios.