169: My Fingers Are Still Moving

0:00:00I don't think we let ourselves just be

0:00:01idiots often now don't that we don't I

0:00:04feel like that's our core competency so

0:00:10i was using my iphone today I was

0:00:12sitting at i would guess thirty percent

0:00:15battery life i am aware that you can

0:00:17turn on battery percentage i think that

0:00:20is the mark of a lunatic because all

0:00:23that doesn't stretch me out when it's on

0:00:25I'd rather not know anyway so I was

0:00:27sitting it i would guess about a third

0:00:29battery life and I go to record a video

0:00:32of Declan we were walking around outside

0:00:34and as i'm recording the video they like

0:00:37I it's not that I was framing and I'm

0:00:39actively recording the video all the

0:00:41sudden phone turns off

0:00:42mm okay that in and of itself is

0:00:44unfortunately common but that was weird

0:00:47but ok so i go to turn the phone back on

0:00:48wait that's common well common enough

0:00:51that we're it's I don't want to say

0:00:55functional high ground but it felt like

0:00:56a functional high ground sort of sort of

0:00:58occurrence right like oh that was weird

0:00:59but I'm sure once it reboots itself

0:01:02everything will be fine okay your

0:01:04windows recency is showing like that

0:01:06they're not the headset is not

0:01:07acceptable behavior like the head that

0:01:09is not normal yeah well do before the

0:01:12show we were just talking about how you

0:01:13rebooting your your imac fixed

0:01:15everything but that's neither here nor

0:01:16there

0:01:17yeah I didn't say that was right either

0:01:18so I go to start the phone back up and

0:01:22it tells me no i won't because your

0:01:25battery's dead

0:01:26what you know what I'm talking about

0:01:27like the i will not start until you plug

0:01:29it in

0:01:30yeah ID a little like better the red

0:01:32line and black screen yeah yeah so I'm

0:01:34like that's weird i was just a

0:01:3530-percent so I do the like hold both

0:01:38buttons until it forced restarts itself

0:01:40dance and starts back up and i'm back

0:01:43thirty percent ok that was really weird

0:01:45but I'll roll with it and then I go to

0:01:49record a video again same exact thing

0:01:51happened

0:01:51mm except this time it didn't want to

0:01:53turn itself back on your batteries toast

0:01:55I've heard of this a lot of people about

0:01:57his problem with many different models

0:01:58of phone iphone in the past that the

0:02:01exactly same symptoms you get your

0:02:02battery down to something that's below

0:02:04half but not really really low and then

0:02:07it's just like nope no battery for you

0:02:10and the same thing like sometimes it'll

0:02:11come

0:02:11like oh here i am again twenty percent

0:02:13you got to take that in that's that is a

0:02:15very common symptom and i don't know i

0:02:17don't know what it is it could just be a

0:02:18bad battery just can't maintain the

0:02:19voltage and once it gets below a certain

0:02:21level the phone just like that so much

0:02:23for that but then you bring it back and

0:02:24it's like I can maintain the voltage now

0:02:26I'm not really i can you just gotta

0:02:27bring it

0:02:28don't bother like like some people John

0:02:30Roderick who live with this for like a

0:02:32year or more and accept it as just like

0:02:34this darn phone is like that's like

0:02:37Marco set that is that's not the way

0:02:39it's supposed to work you have to bring

0:02:40that in tell them the symptoms I'm sure

0:02:42they've heard a million times before

0:02:43because this is a common symptom there's

0:02:45one exception though that is also almost

0:02:48exactly the same behavior you get during

0:02:49hot or cold thermal shutdown

0:02:51yeah obviously temperature stuff and I'm

0:02:53assuming it's spring it's like it's not

0:02:54too hot not too cold I i assume you

0:02:56hadn't left in the Sun on the dashboard

0:02:58of your car before using it now we're

0:03:00just going for a walk about a mile and a

0:03:02half walk it was in my jeans pocket

0:03:03there was no i mean it's it's humid out

0:03:08because it's been raining for the last

0:03:09year but uh but no there was nothing

0:03:12environmental that should have cost it

0:03:14what I've done is I've left it plugged

0:03:16in and have been planned to leave it

0:03:18plugged in all night just to see I

0:03:20wouldn't this is before we had this

0:03:22conversation but I thought I well maybe

0:03:24it's just like not calibrated or

0:03:25something like that so i'll just i'll

0:03:27leave it plugged in all night I mean I

0:03:29always leave it plugged in all night

0:03:30long but i'll just i'll be really

0:03:31diligent about leaving a plugged in and

0:03:33we'll see if that for change that but it

0:03:35sounds like I'm making a trip to the

0:03:36genius bar we typical typical windows

0:03:39blame yourself just defragment hurt no

0:03:41update your windows update virus

0:03:43definitions David your fault it's

0:03:46totally your fault but aren't you happy

0:03:48now like everyone if I had something

0:03:49does happen especially on a device that

0:03:50I've had for a while but like oh yes new

0:03:52battery know that your battery's getting

0:03:55old anyway how many cycles have been

0:03:56through I any fresh new battery assuming

0:03:59you're still under warranty

0:04:00well I mean it's a it's a success so

0:04:02yeah I'm still under warranty but it was

0:04:04that also means i gotta go to the genius

0:04:06bar I've got to do the backup dance I've

0:04:08got to convince them that you know this

0:04:10is an actual issue that isn't my fault

0:04:13etc so i guess i'm sure they make sure

0:04:15they are well versed in this exact

0:04:17problem and have a procedure and you're

0:04:18not the first person to tell them it'll

0:04:20be fine

0:04:21I will say though it really went when I

0:04:24first saw this doing thermal shutdown it

0:04:26was on tips phone this past winter when

0:04:29she was trying to take videos of our kid

0:04:31playing in the snow in like didn't like

0:04:34the high twenties early thirties

0:04:35Fahrenheit

0:04:36yeah like and the phone like after after

0:04:38a couple seconds shooting video just

0:04:40kept shutting down on her and like and

0:04:41we thought we'd broken and I was like oh

0:04:43we're bringing in and then like we want

0:04:45you came inside like it the problem

0:04:47could never be reproduced it at room

0:04:49temperature and we were like oh and I

0:04:51looked up and I figured out that's

0:04:52actually expected behavior that i guess

0:04:55all those videos you see an apple

0:04:57commercials like the shot an iphone

0:04:58where people are like on ski vacations I

0:05:00guess they're taking really short shots

0:05:02I let you have to keep the phone you can

0:05:04keep the phone in the pocket that's

0:05:05essentially outdoors like your pockets

0:05:07are you know if you were to if your

0:05:09pocket cold in other words you have to

0:05:11have it in a pocket that sort of the

0:05:12inside of the body heat part of it

0:05:14because that's all the really it's not

0:05:15as if your phone freezes solid within 20

0:05:17seconds is already frozen when it's in

0:05:18your pocket and you take it out and just

0:05:20goes that you know the little extra bit

0:05:22so you really have to either keep it

0:05:24inside inside your glove or something

0:05:26close to your body so that the phone

0:05:27stays at more or less body at room

0:05:29temperature then you get a long time

0:05:31before it freezes solid into a brick of

0:05:33energy lithium-ion battery are you going

0:05:38to look at those little hand warmer

0:05:39things a little shaky packets but the

0:05:41candles enough that they give off heat

0:05:43you could someone should so a case like

0:05:44that you already got the big lump of the

0:05:46battery case that by the heat case for

0:05:48the winter and that then it will get hot

0:05:49thermal shutdown

0:05:50well it doesn't get that those things

0:05:52are you so the the hand warmer things

0:05:54are the things that people who live in

0:05:56ridiculous climates use right so you

0:05:58guys use that all the time

0:05:59skiers use it all the best as I don't

0:06:01know someone in the tavern remember this

0:06:03before the age of the chemical packets

0:06:05that you put in your pocket that you

0:06:06know you started reaction they will get

0:06:08warm not hot being a warm like that

0:06:09they're not bring your hands because

0:06:11they have lawsuits they had these things

0:06:13that were kinda like metal clamshell

0:06:15things that had inside them essentially

0:06:18burning embers like not open flames but

0:06:21burning ember stick to give off heat

0:06:23sounds like that the most dangerous

0:06:24thing you could possibly imagine

0:06:26and that was the old tech and that was

0:06:29much more so that the new stuff is a

0:06:30considerably a safer and more civilized

0:06:34what was it like was it airtight seal

0:06:36down there or how do i my recollection

0:06:39was that was like a clamshell look more

0:06:40kind of like a compact or a snuffbox or

0:06:42something and that do the little burning

0:06:44ember things you get out by opening and

0:06:46closing it that way but you use it close

0:06:47and just had a metal outside that would

0:06:49radiate the heat weird as it sounds kind

0:06:51of crazy like contraption from your drug

0:06:53days John yeah my drug days right

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0:09:00percent thanks a lot

0:09:02this is the end of the end anonymous is

0:09:04written in and said can you please

0:09:06address the business model behind

0:09:07Tesla's offering to unlock and that's in

0:09:10scare quotes physical features already

0:09:12in the car like battery capacity

0:09:14otherwise lockdown it seems worrisome

0:09:15that in in-app purchase strategies

0:09:18spilling over into hardware not just

0:09:20software updates like autopilot what

0:09:22this is about is the Tesla Model ass the

0:09:2570 kilowatt-hour I couldn't remember

0:09:28what the 70 stood for

0:09:29yes anyway uh for the 70 you can pay

0:09:323250 dollars to unlock its another five

0:09:37kilowatt hours so you can pay 3250

0:09:41dollars for someone to flipping left an

0:09:44electronic switch and that I don't know

0:09:48about that man that just seems a little

0:09:49weird to me like on the one side they

0:09:51are indeed making the car better so

0:09:54shouldn't you pay for that but on the

0:09:56other side they make it better in so

0:09:57many other ways and you don't have to

0:09:58pay for that so why is this something

0:10:00that costs money

0:10:01the triggerman Twitter about this was

0:10:03like in that purchase where they should

0:10:05be the app that has the code for the

0:10:07features that are currently locked and

0:10:08by doing that purchase all they do is

0:10:10flip a bit that enable that feature

0:10:12another word you got you just like when

0:10:14you get the car the car comes with extra

0:10:15battery but it's not enable you get this

0:10:18app the app comes with this extra

0:10:19functionality but it's not enabled that

0:10:21was mostly me being snarky because of

0:10:23course the difference is that it doesn't

0:10:26cost money to manufacture the additional

0:10:28functionality like copying bits

0:10:29essentially free whereas someone paid to

0:10:33manufacture and assemble the parts of

0:10:36your car that they're giving to you in a

0:10:40disabled State so you actually are

0:10:42receiving like that's that's part of the

0:10:45the package is a physical good it costs

0:10:48every time they do that they were

0:10:49however it is they put that extra bit of

0:10:51battery and that that's a real physical

0:10:54item it's not just the simple copying of

0:10:56bits

0:10:57now i don't know if this makes us good

0:10:59from a business standpoint in terms that

0:11:01you feel better or worse about Teslas a

0:11:03company in light of this maybe you feel

0:11:05better we select your car magically got

0:11:06better but maybe feel worse than that

0:11:07you understand you paid to manufacture

0:11:11assemble this this stuff and then you

0:11:13give it to me but you intentionally turn

0:11:15it off it's like you're making my car

0:11:16works on purpose and then ransoming at

0:11:18last little bit unless i'm totally

0:11:21misunderstanding what they're actually

0:11:22doing with this big flipping but if it

0:11:25is actually a physical thing that they

0:11:27are paying to create and then giving to

0:11:30you in a shutoff state to try to ransom

0:11:32more money from you later it doesn't

0:11:33give me a particularly good feeling

0:11:35about the company of the car it's

0:11:38definitely a weird thing and yeah i

0:11:41agree that it's probably not a way to

0:11:43win customer satisfaction people will

0:11:46feel ripped off by that like people who

0:11:50own the 70d and then learn that actually

0:11:53you have 75 kilowatt capacity physically

0:11:56but we only ship to 70 and then you if

0:11:59you want you can pay three thousand

0:12:01dollars to unlock it

0:12:03I can totally see why the people who own

0:12:05those seventies are like that's that's

0:12:07kinda that's kind of BSE that's a little

0:12:09bit BSE but it you know Tesla it's it's

0:12:13a weird company a weird stage in its

0:12:15life doing weird things and most of

0:12:18those things are our I think overall for

0:12:20the better with the model s keep in mind

0:12:22the Model S is sold with a pretty

0:12:25healthy profit margin from what I

0:12:27understand and the main reason is to

0:12:29basically fund the company's further

0:12:31development do you think that the model

0:12:323 because like if you look at what's

0:12:34included in the model s and the starting

0:12:37price of whatever it is like 70,000

0:12:40whatever whatever starting president

0:12:41Model S's and then you look at the model

0:12:443 but the starting price of 35,000 and

0:12:47we already know some of the things that

0:12:48will be included it won't be included in

0:12:50that and it seems kind of crazy if you

0:12:53try to estimate roughly how big of a

0:12:55batteries there in the model 3 roughly a

0:12:56bigger battery is there you know and

0:12:58the model s you know how can they

0:13:00possibly cut the cost of the car in half

0:13:03and sell the model 3 with so much of

0:13:06what was also in the model s and the

0:13:09answer is that their costs aren't being

0:13:11cut in half just the Model S has a nice

0:13:14fat profit margin and the model 3 won't

0:13:17so what you're paying for the model s

0:13:18today is not just like cost of the

0:13:21components plus twenty percent you know

0:13:23you're paying a premium for it because

0:13:25it is a brand-new product you're paying

0:13:27kinda like the early adopter premium on

0:13:30it it has high profits now in the long

0:13:32run it will have lower profit margins in

0:13:35all likelihood this competition will

0:13:36come in and push prices down and you

0:13:38know as things mature than the cost will

0:13:40also go down but the role of the Model S

0:13:43is basically to generate lots of profit

0:13:45for Tesla to make the model 3 so from

0:13:47that perspective i can see why they do

0:13:49things like this because you know that

0:13:52that additional battery that you're

0:13:53hauling around additional five kilowatt

0:13:55hour battery did not cost Tesla $3,000

0:13:59to put in there or even if it did you

0:14:01already paid for it like they sold you a

0:14:03car with that battery in it for the

0:14:05price that you paid you know what I mean

0:14:06like that was like that one of the chat

0:14:08room is saying it's the type of thing

0:14:09where they stopped manufacturing the 70

0:14:11kilowatt but you bought a 70 yellow want

0:14:13to like well we don't have anymore 70

0:14:15lots will give you 75 but flip the

0:14:18switch so that when you get it it looks

0:14:19like the 70 that you order like that was

0:14:21that was the arrangement you are 270

0:14:23comes with 70 kilowatts we give you a

0:14:25car that comes with 17 what everyone

0:14:26should be happy but again from a from a

0:14:30feel good about the company perspective

0:14:31should they should do what Apple does in

0:14:32those cases where like if you have a

0:14:33really old Mac and something goes wrong

0:14:35with it and you're still within warranty

0:14:36or whatever our apple just feels bad

0:14:38they're like well we can't we can't fix

0:14:40this for you we can't replace the part

0:14:42because we don't make that part anymore

0:14:43and we can't give you a new like you

0:14:46know laptop of this kind would anyone

0:14:47make that laptop but here you go here's

0:14:49the current model that laptop what

0:14:51happens all the time

0:14:52an apple and every time it happens it's

0:14:55like a you know a miracle so the people

0:14:57get it like you're getting me not only

0:14:59give me a new laptop

0:15:00you're giving me a new better laptop

0:15:02because you don't make my old crap you

0:15:03want anymore and you're not charging any

0:15:05money for it because it's just like this

0:15:06this laptop is a total write-off it's

0:15:08have too many hardware fairies we can't

0:15:09get a part that makes people love apple

0:15:11so if Tesla that's on the terms that

0:15:13would make people feel bad who bought a

0:15:1417 just got a 70 if you wanna 70d after

0:15:17they stopped manufacturing them and they

0:15:18gave you a 75 and I can I know you order

0:15:2170 but here's seventy-five you would

0:15:23love Tesla you'd be like this is awesome

0:15:24and what 70 people be met because they

0:15:26have their car for a year or whatever

0:15:27like it's not only be mad but it

0:15:29wouldn't be for legendary what is but I

0:15:32know do other mac users get mad like hey

0:15:34that's no fair i had to pay for that

0:15:35computer new you bought an old crappy

0:15:37computer in a broken you got the new one

0:15:38for free and anyone who begrudge people

0:15:40there

0:15:41their good fortune involving you know

0:15:43that the time they chose to purchase at

0:15:45a time there think brokers just

0:15:46ridiculous

0:15:47so anyway I don't think this is as you

0:15:50know tomorrow like this this is a car

0:15:52that you know it costs a lot of money

0:15:54has a big margin the people who are

0:15:55buying it are probably not caring that

0:15:57much about three thousand dollars here

0:15:59and there because this is a very

0:16:00expensive car so in the grand scheme of

0:16:02things maybe doesn't hurt them but they

0:16:04sort of uh they've missed an opportunity

0:16:06to become even more beloved using you

0:16:10know the apple style thinks I'm just

0:16:11like you know surprising delight or

0:16:12whatever not just in your application

0:16:13but also in your policies is one of the

0:16:15reason people like the genius bar i know

0:16:17people have bad experiences with it as

0:16:19well but to go there have a person who

0:16:21you know will take care of your needs

0:16:23and if there's any sort of issue to have

0:16:26the people go that that's like kind of a

0:16:27a a luxury goods experience where if you

0:16:30pay if you really really massively

0:16:31overpay for something

0:16:32the one good thing is like if you have

0:16:34any problem with it like a return

0:16:35anytime or given you an hour will clean

0:16:37it up for you for free or whatever even

0:16:40though you don't massively overpay for

0:16:41apple stuff we just a little bit over

0:16:43pay when you go on with your broken

0:16:45computer and they can't replace it

0:16:47because it's too old and they give you a

0:16:48brand-new model that's just awesome

0:16:50that's like your your loyal for at least

0:16:52another three years before you mad at

0:16:53them again

0:16:54yeah and also keep in mind also like you

0:16:57know even though all the hype right now

0:16:59is about the model 3 for the next like

0:17:02two years possibly more the Model S is

0:17:05still the only test that you can buy or

0:17:07the X i guess but nobody wants that

0:17:09sorry x people so like the the entry

0:17:13price whatever they can make the

0:17:14cheapest model s that is the entry price

0:17:17for Tesla for the next ex years you know

0:17:2023 whatever whatever ends up being

0:17:21before anybody can just go order model 3

0:17:24and

0:17:25I delivered you know in six weeks

0:17:26whatever so the lower they can make that

0:17:29price the more people they can get into

0:17:31being Tesla customers at all

0:17:33they also though want to preserve those

0:17:35profit margins on the higher spec models

0:17:36because that's funding the rest of the

0:17:39company so it's important for them to

0:17:41get to somehow get the price down enough

0:17:45so they can get a few more people in

0:17:47basically without cannibalizing their

0:17:49higher end sales so they have to do

0:17:51tricks like this where it's like well if

0:17:54we sold it just as a 75 before and it

0:17:57was like 75 for that one or 85 for that

0:18:00for the big one up that was too small

0:18:03difference we would lose many sales

0:18:04maybe they figured so they would they

0:18:05made that 170 even though technically

0:18:07had 75 then there are something like

0:18:09that you know and and then when they

0:18:11raised the other one from 85 to 90 and

0:18:13they raised the other one from 7075

0:18:14because now you're just keeping the same

0:18:16difference is there's all sorts of

0:18:18reasons why they could have done this

0:18:19that make total sense and even though

0:18:22they might annoy some of the customers

0:18:24who don't think things should work that

0:18:26way you know it might be better than the

0:18:27alternative for the company as a whole

0:18:29you know this isn't unprecedented either

0:18:32like when i first heard about the story

0:18:34few days back my first thought was no

0:18:35it's a little gross but as I was

0:18:38thinking about it while you guys are

0:18:39talking no i paid almost a thousand

0:18:42dollars for a cobb accessport which is a

0:18:46thing I refer to it as a chip

0:18:48colloquially but really it's just a

0:18:50software programmer that you plug into

0:18:53the obd2 port and it will reflash the

0:18:59computer and and give you a little bit

0:19:01more power and makes car little bit

0:19:03faster and then I was taking myself well

0:19:05but that's a little bit different

0:19:06because that's third party and so yeah

0:19:09makes sense that a third party is going

0:19:10to want to sell you something to make

0:19:12your car better but I got thinking about

0:19:14a little more and it occurred to me

0:19:15BMW cells what they call the performance

0:19:17power kit which to my understanding does

0:19:20have a little bit of hardware involved

0:19:23but the majority of the changes are

0:19:27simply reflash just like my cop does so

0:19:30this is a first-party thing and again

0:19:32it's not entirely apples to apples

0:19:34because there is a little bit of

0:19:35hardware but it's a first-party thing

0:19:38that i'm looking on BMWs website right

0:19:39now and it's 2107 dollars so this is not

0:19:44that different in my eyes

0:19:48then what BMW is already doing and

0:19:50presumably other manufacturers as well

0:19:51but I wonder can you pirate a battery

0:19:54hey yeah FML good pirate the bed

0:19:58flipping but never live in the BMW case

0:19:59may be part of the money that you're

0:20:01paying is to offset increase warranty

0:20:03repairs for your engine that is

0:20:04operating slightly outside the intended

0:20:06you know boundaries of whatever you know

0:20:10depending on what it's changing about

0:20:12the engine that could be impacting a

0:20:14reliability or other issues like it so

0:20:17the price is basically everyone paid

0:20:19this price as a blanket insurance policy

0:20:21for the slightly increase odds that

0:20:23you're going to have your valvetrain

0:20:24blow up or whatever i could be but i

0:20:27mean i would hope and assume that these

0:20:31engines are built in such a way that

0:20:33they're tolerances give them enough

0:20:35leeway that a first-party solution would

0:20:39not bump up against any of that now by

0:20:41solution might but there's a reason they

0:20:43sell them where they said they sell that

0:20:45they tried but the car manufacturer

0:20:46trying to do or sell their engines tuned

0:20:48in a way that balances performance with

0:20:52reliability because and economy and

0:20:54emissions right so this is the whole

0:20:57bunch of things in the mix there and

0:21:00they're going for something that makes

0:21:03you know the worst thing you want to

0:21:04happen as you set these cars out there

0:21:06with particular balance of things and it

0:21:08turns out that all the men of coming

0:21:10back in like six years with something

0:21:11really expensive wrong with the end like

0:21:13you don't want that to happen but if

0:21:15people say well I know you can squeeze

0:21:17more horsepower this thing if only you

0:21:18increase the boost on the turbos or you

0:21:21know did change the the timing or you

0:21:24know whatever you want to do one thing

0:21:25and it might have a slight detrimental

0:21:28impact on reliability but if people are

0:21:30going to give us the money will do that

0:21:33then i guess like a big pool to pay for

0:21:34the one guy out of every hundred was

0:21:36engine dies a premature death due to

0:21:39this to anything but you everyone has

0:21:41the same engine as long as the best part

0:21:42of your engine that you're not being

0:21:43allowed to use it's more like I I think

0:21:46of it as a like buying applecare+ or

0:21:49whatever

0:21:51fair enough i was gonna say it's like 80

0:21:54minutes CDR services 74 minutes standard

0:21:56but as you kept going it ended up being

0:21:58nothing like that commits right Adam

0:22:02Bushman rights in to say getting to love

0:22:05something like add bumpers by just by

0:22:08being exposed to it frequently that's

0:22:09called the is that Mary or miri exposure

0:22:13effect i'm shirley mispronouncing that

0:22:15but Emmy re-exposure effect in okc you

0:22:18are the chief pronounced her on the show

0:22:20now great chief summarizer and chief

0:22:22announcer I thought I'd like merely by

0:22:24being exploited exposed it's like the

0:22:26worst name the effect ever the mere

0:22:28exposure effect immediately by the last

0:22:30anyway will link the link the wikipedia

0:22:33article which obviously not i was

0:22:34actually read but you can read it

0:22:37indeed you walk into our homework for us

0:22:39that's how the show works it's

0:22:40accidental I you know that's that one of

0:22:43the jobs of wikipedia is every

0:22:44phenomenon that you think has a name

0:22:46probably does that that's probably a

0:22:48phenomenon Davey idea turns out there's

0:22:52a name for it already

0:22:53what is the name of that phenomenon I

0:22:55bet nobody knows except Merlin I

0:22:57guarantee you he knows doesn't he just

0:22:59looks like we could be like everyone

0:23:00else

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0:24:59for expense tracking there are so many

0:25:01features here isn't all fit in one and I

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0:25:29ATP thanks a lot

0:25:30this is the end of the ad so the new

0:25:33york times on the on the seventh which

0:25:37was this past saturday as we record

0:25:39released an article podcast surge but

0:25:43producers fear Apple isn't listening and

0:25:46this article it had some problems the

0:25:52quick summary from your summarizer in

0:25:54chief is that Apple supposedly had

0:25:58a handful of big-name podcasters into

0:26:03their campus to talk to apple about what

0:26:06they want from Apple to make their jobs

0:26:09easier and the way this new york times

0:26:11article was written was basically we

0:26:14want all the data about all the things

0:26:15and apple may or may not be giving that

0:26:19to us and that's mildly alarming this is

0:26:22created quite obviously quite a hub in

0:26:26our little circle because most of the

0:26:29things that the New York Times articles

0:26:31talking about about big data about

0:26:32getting access to who listen to what

0:26:34when and when I say Who I mean you know

0:26:36how old is this personal gender are they

0:26:38where do they live how much do they make

0:26:40what they like what they not like

0:26:41etcetera and when they listen to they

0:26:43must know whole thing today only listen

0:26:44to part of it they listen to the

0:26:45beginning skip the middle did they skip

0:26:46the ads to do not skip the ad so they

0:26:48like the answer they not like the ads

0:26:49tell us everything

0:26:52well for those of us who care about our

0:26:54listeners we don't want that we don't we

0:26:56don't need that we don't want that and

0:26:58we hope we never get in the position

0:26:59that we do need that and so this article

0:27:03a lot of problems and Marco you wrote a

0:27:04really really nice post about it I I

0:27:08don't really know what to say that that

0:27:10had that hasn't already been said in

0:27:11either marcos post or or or Federico's

0:27:15but I'm sure there's something to be

0:27:17said so Marco take it away

0:27:18I mean the good thing is all the other

0:27:19stuff that had to be said jason and mike

0:27:22said upgrade this week so i suggest you

0:27:24listen to the bedstead but if you really

0:27:27if you want to stick around here as well

0:27:28listen to us as well there's a few parts

0:27:31here I mean so you mentioned the

0:27:33data-gathering part that the leading

0:27:34podcasters allegedly wanted by the way

0:27:36this whole article is stating a bunch of

0:27:39things as fact like this is definitely

0:27:43how Apple does things now this meeting

0:27:45definitely happened

0:27:46it definitely happened like this with

0:27:48these people in it and so far I have not

0:27:51heard any corroboration to support some

0:27:55of these facts like the specific about

0:27:57the meeting

0:27:58additionally I know firsthand that many

0:28:01of the things in the article stated as

0:28:02fact or imply this fact are wrong or

0:28:05misleading with how with how the system

0:28:07works or

0:28:09you know apples role in it or technical

0:28:11details of how it works so taken with

0:28:15the giant pile assault honestly i would

0:28:17i would say don't even bother reading it

0:28:19if you did read it it reads more like

0:28:21something that maybe somebody on forbes

0:28:24would have written to to be like an anti

0:28:27apple like clickbait piece because it

0:28:29contributes a lot of of of intent and

0:28:33like malice to apple for like what

0:28:35they've been holding back on all these

0:28:37years and stuff like that that is just

0:28:39it misleading investors and then in some

0:28:42cases just outright wrong say it needs

0:28:45to be taken with a lot of with a lot of

0:28:46salt so that being said I think there

0:28:49you can look at at the medium here the

0:28:51podcasting medium the way the way it has

0:28:54worked so far which basically works like

0:28:57RSS readers that happen to play audio

0:28:59files it's basically it like its precise

0:29:01photoshop RSS feeds with mp3's or you're

0:29:04a seasoned the vast majority of mp3s was

0:29:06gonna say that from now on and clients

0:29:09are basically RSS readers and they

0:29:11affect those RSS feeds for everything is

0:29:13described to and when a person is

0:29:15present they download the mp3 file

0:29:17that's better than the liquid which is

0:29:18better than the feed they print then

0:29:20they showed he was an episode where it's

0:29:22playing it's simply playing mp3 it is

0:29:24not like loading pages on the site of

0:29:28the of the podcast provider or anything

0:29:31like that it is not executing javascript

0:29:34on their behalf it is not sending them

0:29:35tracking information they do get the the

0:29:39hit on their server for when you fetch

0:29:42that mp3 so they did so podcasters

0:29:45already have a certain amount of data

0:29:47about their listeners and so the idea

0:29:50that like you know Appling to step in

0:29:52and provide data so that people can have

0:29:55any idea what what size their audiences

0:29:57it's a little exaggerated because we

0:29:59already know how big our audiences it's

0:30:01a little bit approximated but i think

0:30:04you know I think history shows with a

0:30:05lot of this you know data science in in

0:30:08massive quotes I'm just my fingers are

0:30:10just constantly moving during this whole

0:30:11this whole thing constant air quotes

0:30:13just up and down all the like web data

0:30:16stuff is also in precise so you know and

0:30:18is also very easily faked and defrauded

0:30:21all the time and everything so

0:30:22all the problems that apply to what we

0:30:24have now also apply to to you know

0:30:26proper my fingers are still moving big

0:30:29data kind of analytics and and and

0:30:32creepy tracking stuff anyway so we

0:30:35already know how big the audience is to

0:30:37a rough degree where they are to a rough

0:30:40degree and how many of them downloaded

0:30:43show we don't need that level of data

0:30:46integration where you go much beyond

0:30:48this yet and we might in the future in

0:30:51order to get like hi ad rates but right

0:30:54now we don't

0:30:55the reason the web had has had well

0:30:58quote had to my fingers still moving had

0:31:01to do all this creepy data stuff is

0:31:03because web address just plummeted that

0:31:07mean they were never great to begin with

0:31:08and over the years since the web has

0:31:10been a thing I think they just basically

0:31:13always gone down because general like

0:31:15web display ads like ads you see on the

0:31:18side of a new site or increasingly on

0:31:20top of the news that you're trying to

0:31:22read a floating in flying around the new

0:31:24site in the background of the news site

0:31:25and every sidebar button below the

0:31:27content posing as content posing as all

0:31:29these top news stories because we're do

0:31:31tricks the new scientists wanted to

0:31:32learn about britney spears like it

0:31:34the reason it keeps getting so bad on

0:31:35the web is that nobody looks at web ads

0:31:38nobody see it's not that people see them

0:31:41ignore them but people even see them

0:31:43even if you don't have an ad blocker

0:31:45installed you like visually don't see

0:31:48them like heat you like you don't

0:31:50perceive them you you skip over them to

0:31:52the whole banner blindness thing is real

0:31:54there's very little that that web

0:31:56publishers can really do to make a lot

0:31:59of money on those things and and so

0:32:01they've had to do all this crazy

0:32:03tracking stuff just to try to make it

0:32:05slightly more targeted to raise the

0:32:07rates slightly more and then of course

0:32:10there's the rise of all these

0:32:11programmatic ad exchanges which makes

0:32:13everything even worse and even more

0:32:14horrible and even more creepy track but

0:32:16this that's alongside that we need to

0:32:19get any more into summary version

0:32:21basically the web sucks for ads like it

0:32:25is it is a terrible place to advertise

0:32:27it is a terrible place to publish

0:32:29advertisements to try to make money from

0:32:31them

0:32:31additionally as i mentioned before all

0:32:33the massive fraud that goes on like it

0:32:36such a mess it is so it's just bad for

0:32:38everybody because the medium just

0:32:40doesn't work that well for display just

0:32:42it just doesn't work very well

0:32:44simple as that and as everything gets

0:32:46more and more cutthroat and advanced

0:32:48technically and algorithmically

0:32:50generated and everything it's just

0:32:52getting worse and worse hours and it's

0:32:54this kind of no one inside there with

0:32:55the web the web as a place to make money

0:32:57through advertising is really a pretty

0:33:00pretty bad place to be so podcasts on

0:33:04the other hand because these are just

0:33:06mp3 files

0:33:07it's just an audio stream there's

0:33:09basically nothing you can really do to

0:33:13advertise in an audio stream except just

0:33:16insert a an ad that somebody is speaking

0:33:18into the stream and because of lots of

0:33:22reasons there's not a lot of tracking

0:33:24you can do to say like you know did

0:33:26people here that ad with a few

0:33:28exceptions but for the most part nobody

0:33:30you can't really track the people here

0:33:32this day people listen this far on the

0:33:33show like you pretty much can't do it

0:33:35cause like what if somebody's playing it

0:33:37on their ipod didn't even have an

0:33:39internet connection you know like that

0:33:40you don't know that they're still

0:33:42playing the file you downloaded from you

0:33:43and there's no way for that report

0:33:44reported to you

0:33:45what if they're playing it in like some

0:33:47like web in bed or Twitter and Bedwyr

0:33:49like they're just babies can see the mp3

0:33:51file but they're not like loading a

0:33:54whole app there are they're not loading

0:33:56your whole webpage or something like

0:33:58they're still listening and buy by the

0:34:00wrong metric of download counts they

0:34:03will be counted but that's all you can

0:34:06really get one of the soothing sound of

0:34:08our voices put them to sleep and as they

0:34:10fall asleep and that's why exactly like

0:34:13she should we get paid for those like so

0:34:15it that there's no way to tell whether

0:34:16somebody has listened to a certain point

0:34:18basically unless you control the app and

0:34:21we'll get to that

0:34:22so anyway this to me is like this

0:34:25beautiful system because the web

0:34:28I i love the web and it makes me so sad

0:34:30to see what the web has become over the

0:34:33last five years or so as everything is

0:34:36just gotten so much more cutthroat and

0:34:38driven by automated adtech and

0:34:40algorithmic content generation and it's

0:34:42just and said it's it's just it's just a

0:34:44mess and as a fan of both the web as a

0:34:47medium and also the the

0:34:49openness of blogging and RSS feeds and

0:34:51everything which I still used by the way

0:34:53still use an RSS reader it's not that

0:34:55that world is is losing to Facebook and

0:35:00Twitter and an apple and these these

0:35:03kind of closed ecosystems that makes me

0:35:07very sad and podcasting is still run

0:35:10that way the question basically the the

0:35:14debate here is whether podcasting can

0:35:18still be run that way for a longer time

0:35:20or whether this you know the article

0:35:22kept saying like it's outgrown its roots

0:35:25has it like this podcasting really need

0:35:29to add all this crap to the people's

0:35:31business grow because podcasting is

0:35:35working just fine the way it is

0:35:37we get so so if you talk about like how

0:35:39much you make per listener / / user and

0:35:42people call this the CPM the cost per

0:35:44thousand impressions well however you

0:35:47measure that

0:35:48thanks france by the way for the am so

0:35:50the web

0:35:51I think you're lucky to get I mean

0:35:54what's a good web CPM today like a few

0:35:57dollars maybe at most I mean with

0:35:59podcasting the numbers are lower list of

0:36:01numbers are lower like you know a good

0:36:03website it can get millions of hits a

0:36:05month the top podcast things like this

0:36:08american life like really big podcast

0:36:11might get like a million downloads a

0:36:13month or something in that ballpark I

0:36:14don't have recent numbers on that but

0:36:16that's what I heard like a year or two

0:36:17ago someone that you know a million

0:36:19downloads a month for a podcast will put

0:36:21you in like the top handle a podcast

0:36:23that exists in the world whereas a

0:36:24million hits to a web pages is kinda

0:36:26like lower mid-level trafficker these

0:36:29days like you can get way more than that

0:36:30if you're big site but the podcast can

0:36:34command something like a 22 $60 CPM

0:36:39instead of what the web is getting like

0:36:41you know a dollar or two because pockets

0:36:44advertising is just so much more

0:36:46effective

0:36:46it's not even close it is way more

0:36:49effective and part that's because you

0:36:52have you know people like us at the

0:36:53hosts reading the ads and that makes you

0:36:55pay attention more a big part of it is

0:36:58you're actually hearing them as opposed

0:37:00to the web where you just do not even

0:37:01see the ads at all

0:37:02and not because bad blockers because you

0:37:04actually just ignore them podcast answer

0:37:06so much more effective just because of

0:37:08the medium because of how its heard

0:37:10where it's heard who is saying what

0:37:12they're saying the relationship people

0:37:14have the dedication they have where and

0:37:16how they're listening as opposed to look

0:37:18on the web your kind of like skimming

0:37:20constantly and you can get there as fast

0:37:22as you can

0:37:23a podcast you're probably listening to

0:37:25while doing something else whether it's

0:37:27working driving whatever the case you're

0:37:29less physically engaged in the activity

0:37:32so you're less likely i think just get

0:37:33the ad it's it's just such a different

0:37:35environment that it just happens to work

0:37:38way better for ads so for some reason

0:37:41this handful of big podcasters allegedly

0:37:45met with some people and apple allegedly

0:37:48trying to get them to say well we want

0:37:51we want to basically do like web levels

0:37:53of data tracking and we want Apple to

0:37:57put that in there at because that's what

0:37:59we can have we can really have it done

0:38:00is to put these things in apps it the

0:38:02implication there is because they want

0:38:04their business models to be more like

0:38:06the web and that just seems insane to me

0:38:09because the web is in such shambles and

0:38:13we have it great over here in podcast

0:38:15land they don't know how lucky they are

0:38:17that the web does these data things

0:38:20because it has 24 most sites to get

0:38:23anything at all

0:38:24not because that is the inevitable way

0:38:27forward to quote grow your business

0:38:30podcasting is not new it is not even i

0:38:34would even say it's booming I think it's

0:38:37growing steadily the same way it has for

0:38:4010 years and if you look at like podcast

0:38:43growth it's not a hockey stick curve

0:38:46it's basically a line and everyone's

0:38:49everyone who thinks it's new it's just

0:38:51like it's like to tip the iceberg thing

0:38:53like they were finally put out of the

0:38:54ocean where it's like they think oh my

0:38:55god this is here all of a sudden in

0:38:57reality like no it's been growing the

0:38:58entire time on the oceans didn't see it

0:39:00there that there's basically the debate

0:39:03over whether podcasting needs to change

0:39:08in order to enable quote growth or two

0:39:12mature or something and this what what

0:39:14angered me so much for this article

0:39:16in addition to all the things that got

0:39:18like factually wrong or misleading it

0:39:20basically stated as given as fact that

0:39:23podcasting was outgrowing its roots and

0:39:26needed to change the way it operates to

0:39:30be more like the web

0:39:32I very strongly disagree with that i'm

0:39:35not saying the podcasting should never

0:39:36change but I am saying i don't think it

0:39:39needs to change in this way right now

0:39:41and possibly ever because this is a

0:39:44different medium it works very

0:39:45differently and the idea that a few

0:39:48people most of whom come from the web

0:39:51and ad tech world's think the podcast

0:39:53should work more like the web

0:39:55first of all I find that baffling

0:39:56because I said the web sucks and and

0:39:59second of all I i think that is that is

0:40:01a bad argument it but it doesn't follow

0:40:03like that you can't make that argument

0:40:04without support that showing that

0:40:06somehow podcasting is really suffering

0:40:08without this and is declining and needs

0:40:10this to survive and I see no evidence of

0:40:13that at all in fact i'm doing the

0:40:14opposite i'm seeing podcasting is

0:40:15growing and is doing very well

0:40:17going to the to the apple site like what

0:40:19can Apple do apple is a directory

0:40:23they're the biggest directory and they

0:40:25had this big editorial section where

0:40:27they can promote shows which they do and

0:40:29as far as i know they're the only people

0:40:30who who invest a lot of human effort to

0:40:33actually make editorial podcast pics in

0:40:36lots of different categories every week

0:40:37and around the world i think so like

0:40:41that you know they're already doing a

0:40:42lot of editorial side

0:40:43I don't know what else they could do on

0:40:45the editorial side I think I think like

0:40:46they're doing they're already doing way

0:40:49more than anybody could be expected to

0:40:51do given that they're making a little

0:40:53money off of podcasting I think they're

0:40:54doing a very good job APPL I think

0:40:56editorially I think they're set we

0:40:59should be thankful to do as much as they

0:41:00as they do and then you have the Apple

0:41:04player and this is kind of where it so

0:41:07the a podcast players the most popular

0:41:08podcast playing app the one built and

0:41:10built into iOS I don't know how itunes

0:41:12does anymore the desktop i think it's

0:41:13pretty small probably but but the 1i OS

0:41:16that comes comes with iOS called

0:41:17podcasts from Apple the purple icon that

0:41:20is the most popular pockets on the road

0:41:21has something like sixty percent

0:41:22sixty-seven percent of podcast downloads

0:41:26according to most people and so they're

0:41:28basically pushing up

0:41:29to say the stats we get now are not

0:41:31enough we want you to do two things for

0:41:34us we want you to a give us as much data

0:41:36as you can about the people so tell us

0:41:38like how many downloads into your app

0:41:40actually listen to where they listen you

0:41:42know where they stopped playing episode

0:41:44like what exactly what time stamp down

0:41:46to the second so we can optimize your

0:41:47content and tweak our storytelling

0:41:50abilities and their advertisers can ask

0:41:52how many people actually heard our

0:41:53entire ads they can then I guess not pay

0:41:56us like I get a lot of these things

0:41:59don't make sense when you think them

0:42:01through that I don't know why why

0:42:03because we asking for these things

0:42:05anyway so that's that's part one is that

0:42:08they want Apple to to add all this

0:42:10creepy data tracking to their player app

0:42:12and then to report it to the podcast in

0:42:15some way and once again I think Jason's

0:42:17now on my curly on upgrade this past

0:42:19week I did a very very good job of

0:42:21covering exactly like what the kind of

0:42:23implications of this would be and how

0:42:25like just that the scale of the

0:42:27operation this would entail to even do

0:42:29this if they wanted to and how useful

0:42:31the data would actually be considering

0:42:33that it's not that it like it isn't all

0:42:36listeners its depending on the show

0:42:39somewhere between like probably 20 and

0:42:41seventy percent of listeners so you know

0:42:44that's and it might not be

0:42:45representative sample so it's you know

0:42:47it the quality of the David they would

0:42:49get woody wood itself being questioned

0:42:51even if they got it and in the process

0:42:53then getting it and the the systems

0:42:56involved the implementation of that

0:42:57would be a huge mess not to mention all

0:42:59the ethical and quality issues it would

0:43:02then create the incentives that would

0:43:04create with podcast creation with with

0:43:07these pro podcasters to like structure

0:43:09shows differently so they would boost

0:43:10these numbers and in these little tiny

0:43:12ways that would kind of sacrifice

0:43:14quality or overall flow but how it would

0:43:18give us five percent move this month you

0:43:19know because you can say now that would

0:43:21never happen but look at the web it

0:43:22happens it always happens

0:43:24so you know let's not kid ourselves that

0:43:26would definitely happen so you have this

0:43:29made this massive problematic request of

0:43:32the more data then you also have three

0:43:35the request of podcasters that Apple

0:43:37enable other business models and what

0:43:40they basically mean is enable away for

0:43:42people to pay for our show

0:43:43you know there's there's already ways to

0:43:45pay for podcasts lots of podcast do i

0:43:48know this because overcast doesn't

0:43:50support their feeds and I hear from all

0:43:52their fans everyday but there's already

0:43:56ways to do things like paid feeds

0:43:59members only feeds whether it's

0:44:00password-protected or its hidden URL to

0:44:03support those thanks Jason idea to

0:44:05support please subscribe 26 colors you

0:44:09know the password stuff I don't support

0:44:10and and some a lot of them like that tho

0:44:12members only area or or paid podcast

0:44:15that aren't even distributed as podcast

0:44:16files then feed you you like sign up

0:44:18with their website and you can download

0:44:20the audio files there are lots of ways

0:44:22to do this the biggest way to do this

0:44:24though Apple made in 2008 called the app

0:44:28store this is what most people do if

0:44:31they want to have a paid podcast they

0:44:33release their own app to play their

0:44:36podcast which gives them all the

0:44:39capabilities that the podcasters are

0:44:41asking Apple for allegedly that already

0:44:43exists its existed for eight years

0:44:46it's called the App Store you can make

0:44:48your app you can charge whatever you

0:44:50want for the app you can have in-app

0:44:52purchase in the app you can control the

0:44:54entire player experience and do all the

0:44:56creepy data tracking you want that's

0:44:58already there many podcasts have their

0:45:01own apps

0:45:02this is not a new thing and it works

0:45:04okay i don't know anybody who makes a

0:45:07ton of their of their listenership or

0:45:09money that way but they make some it's

0:45:11fine

0:45:12so you know what if that's the kind of

0:45:14system you want it already exists and

0:45:16take it from a developer i guarantee you

0:45:19that whatever Apple would do with the

0:45:21podcast app store with the podcast or

0:45:24that that everyone's apparently asking

0:45:25for would be worse

0:45:27that would be a worse system than just

0:45:30making your nap

0:45:31you don't want that trust me like either

0:45:34way apples taking 30-percent let's be

0:45:36honest here I mean we know that they're

0:45:38taking at least thirty percent either

0:45:39way you know at least in the app store

0:45:41it's only thirty percent if you if they

0:45:42make their own pocket store because the

0:45:44opportunity to set a new rate might be

0:45:46hired at Apple's services company so you

0:45:48believe me you don't want the head that

0:45:50you understand why they don't want to

0:45:51make their own app like it isn't it

0:45:53obvious like the fragmentation problem

0:45:56that if

0:45:56everyone has their own app like they'd

0:45:57be the advancement of the app store is

0:46:00the one place you go to get all the

0:46:01software instead of having to go to

0:46:02individual developers website that

0:46:04discoverability problems and making

0:46:05people aware and came to fatigue as kind

0:46:08of like we have an apple TV that like

0:46:09that the fatigue of like I don't want to

0:46:12listen to this podcast together this a

0:46:13priority that podcast that app like your

0:46:16kind of like when when books for

0:46:17individual apps back when Apple was

0:46:19allowing that you get one book is an

0:46:20individual app it's just it's a lot of

0:46:22fragmentation and everybody good that

0:46:24it's really hard to get attention from

0:46:27anybody and I can build the sort of

0:46:28level playing clear that you were

0:46:30talking about before is an advantage of

0:46:32saying like Apple you dissemble met this

0:46:33stuff is sort of the baseline within the

0:46:36only podcast player app that matters the

0:46:38built-in appleone as far as these people

0:46:39are concerned allegedly in this in this

0:46:41article here then we wouldn't have to

0:46:44fight for the attention to get our app

0:46:46downloaded and it really is a barrier to

0:46:48people like people don't want to have to

0:46:49download a new app forever it's like

0:46:52having to download a new app for

0:46:53removing your policy is a rather just go

0:46:54to a store and be able to render by the

0:46:56movie and you want to go to 17 different

0:46:57stores and that there are still multiple

0:46:59stores but it was one per pod cast

0:47:01that's bad

0:47:02so I kind of what i'm trying to do

0:47:04reading this article is put myself into

0:47:06perhaps not the headspace of the

0:47:08theoretical people who talk to apple but

0:47:11the headspace of the author of this

0:47:13article because a lot of things this

0:47:15article are not quotes are not and are

0:47:17not like sentiments attributed to people

0:47:20who supposedly met with Apple but rather

0:47:22just stated

0:47:23yeah in what looks like the authors

0:47:24voice presumably informed by the I don't

0:47:29know by accounts of the meeting and I'm

0:47:31trying to let try to figure out like why

0:47:34is it that the author or the people that

0:47:37the author spoke to believe these things

0:47:39about podcasting like what is I know

0:47:43what what what what are we missing visit

0:47:45you I think you've outlined pretty

0:47:46well-liked from our perspective doesn't

0:47:48make any sense but our perspectives and

0:47:49the only perspective and I think the

0:47:51best thing I've come up with is that if

0:47:55you want to if you want to reach a

0:47:58bigger audience like podcasts are the

0:48:01size of they are serial is way bigger

0:48:03than lots of podcasts this american life

0:48:05is way bigger but that kind of barely

0:48:06house because it is built it audience on

0:48:08the radio and not

0:48:09as a podcast right um if you want to go

0:48:12really big with that big audience i

0:48:15means I suppose high production values

0:48:19across more to make shows that good the

0:48:21battery know if that's true but like I'm

0:48:22trying again i'm trying to get in their

0:48:24head in there thinking like I think it's

0:48:25loosely correlated high production

0:48:26values can result in better shows they

0:48:28do sometimes do something better shows

0:48:30but they are they don't always and they

0:48:32aren't always required right but anyway

0:48:34they're going for if you were going for

0:48:35a much bigger audience part of that

0:48:37would also be going for bigger

0:48:39advertiser's advertisers who are used to

0:48:43who would not bother advertising on the

0:48:47numbers the most podcast put up and if

0:48:50you want big advertisers big advertisers

0:48:53have been conditioned by all the crap on

0:48:55the web that you just talked about want

0:48:57this information that is not available

0:48:59from podcast so it's kind of like we

0:49:01want to go really big we want to go mass

0:49:03market and by the way when you go

0:49:04mass-market your CPMs go down because

0:49:07mass-market like we're gonna make a show

0:49:09for everybody everybody is not as

0:49:11valuable as people who are SuperDuper

0:49:13into model trains because it if you have

0:49:15a podcast that you know for people who

0:49:17are SuperDuper into model trains model

0:49:19trains manufacturers will pay a lot for

0:49:21that right

0:49:22whereas if you're gonna have our podcast

0:49:24isn't dubai everyone everyone is not a

0:49:26great demo or like our podcast listen to

0:49:29it but you know like you really the the

0:49:31reason podcast get such icp-ms and the

0:49:33reason i think a lot of tech podcast get

0:49:35icp-ms is it's a it's a narrow

0:49:38self-selecting audience based on the

0:49:39topic and those audiences can be much

0:49:42more valuable than the mass audiences so

0:49:44anyway if you be want to make podcast

0:49:47way bigger and sell to a mass audience

0:49:48and your CPM goes down you really need

0:49:51the tools that will let you get cold to

0:49:53put an advertisement on your thing or

0:49:55you know talk to proctor and gamble or

0:49:56whatever like these really big things

0:50:00that you know by super bowl ads and are

0:50:03you have huge ad budgets and I think

0:50:06that's kind of the chicken egg thing

0:50:07they're trying to go it's like podcast

0:50:09is it looks like it also wasted medium

0:50:11from the perspective of these these that

0:50:12people who are going to want to go for a

0:50:14big audience like I bet many more people

0:50:16would go for any other thing about radio

0:50:18like you have

0:50:19you know every kind of mass advertiser

0:50:22be on the radio because like all this

0:50:23reaches everybody but the everybody

0:50:25model is so different than the current

0:50:26podcasting while I think what they want

0:50:28to happen is please make a world where

0:50:31coca-cola will advertise and here are

0:50:33the ingredients we see that will hook up

0:50:36all the pieces in this chain so that we

0:50:37will have a podcast that plays 250

0:50:39million people and that really big

0:50:41companies pay for ads or at a tremendous

0:50:43rate and a tremendously mostly p.m. but

0:50:46we'll make it up in volume and now we

0:50:48are big player and we will just squish

0:50:50all the other shows and we'll make

0:50:51cereal look like a little silly NPR

0:50:53fluke i don't have enough cereals NPR

0:50:55sorry pris see over the holidays and

0:50:59that and like and that's so outside our

0:51:02understanding of podcasts and our little

0:51:03text circle and our nerdy podcast and

0:51:05stuff like that I don't necessarily

0:51:08think that that can't and shouldn't

0:51:11exist but like as a goal I kind of see

0:51:16it as well as something to that like

0:51:18imagine if you have the podcast

0:51:20everybody let's do see really seems like

0:51:22it was most people you know like it's

0:51:24just been compared to other podcast it's

0:51:25not as if someone came out with the the

0:51:28equivalent of you know Star Wars 1977

0:51:31like the movie that everybody and

0:51:33generation saw there's no podcast

0:51:35equivalent to that yet and they could be

0:51:37going for it and I think that's an

0:51:38interesting goal and interesting to

0:51:41aspire to but the way the things they're

0:51:44asking for a are informed by the web and

0:51:45like you said like that's pretty stupid

0:51:47and be like the whole what they're

0:51:49asking Apple to do I don't understand

0:51:51why maybe they haven't been burned

0:51:53enough by this but asking Apple to a

0:51:54building's analytics into your app and

0:51:57make you know it and subscriptions and

0:51:59stuff like that and of course there are

0:52:00so many things that only Apple can do

0:52:01because their platform level things or

0:52:03have to do with the app store and

0:52:05there's only one way to get software on

0:52:06your things through the app store again

0:52:08focusing on iOS but i'm sure they make

0:52:10the same pitch to google it google get

0:52:12on google play thing going on over there

0:52:13but were they successful in lobbying

0:52:16apple for the things they supposedly

0:52:18once they will just let you know that in

0:52:20their wildest dreams what they will have

0:52:21successfully done is created youtube

0:52:23which is terrible for just over a

0:52:25situation where the only reasonable way

0:52:28to make money with video on the web is

0:52:31through YouTube and YouTube controls

0:52:32army

0:52:33music yeah youtube controls everything

0:52:35about it and there's no competition and

0:52:37they can change the terms of the same

0:52:39time what the hell you going to do

0:52:40because it's YouTube like why would you

0:52:42ask me that why would you get you are

0:52:44you know again

0:52:45tapos credit or whatever or capitals

0:52:48apathy or whatever like they're probably

0:52:49not going to do any of this stuff but if

0:52:51they did it would be terrible for

0:52:53everyone involved both the big guys

0:52:55because they would just be putting

0:52:56themselves under the thumb of apple and

0:52:58for the small people who were like no we

0:53:00don't want that we like to be free and

0:53:01open or whatever like so it's a terrible

0:53:03doomsday scenario if they got what they

0:53:06wanted because it would it would just

0:53:07make it dysfunction all the way you

0:53:09talked about for the web and the data

0:53:11and the in ever decreasing CPMs in the

0:53:13Indian the perverse incentives in the

0:53:14fraud and everything like that and you

0:53:16would be shoveling all the power in the

0:53:18market to this one gatekeeper just

0:53:20because you didn't write one right here

0:53:21on happen because you couldn't abide to

0:53:23have simple open system with RSS VHP

0:53:25suggest it wouldn't didn't give you the

0:53:27analytics you like it's it's such a

0:53:29terrible thing to want like and I I kind

0:53:32of see where they're coming from like we

0:53:33want the big breakout hit and we need

0:53:35this data and we need these tools but I

0:53:37feel like you should work that out so

0:53:39hard for me to talk with us even

0:53:40accepting the premise that these things

0:53:42happen in the article weather said it

0:53:43but because they didn't end it did but

0:53:46you should be talking to coca-cola about

0:53:48how they should be ok with you know

0:53:52funding this podcast for celebrities

0:53:54that you think millions and millions of

0:53:55people are going to listen to without

0:53:56the obsessive data that they think they

0:53:59should technically be able to get that

0:54:01coca-cola picture back to the olden days

0:54:03when people feel that little paper forms

0:54:05after they watch television shows and

0:54:06you and you bought you bought

0:54:08advertisement based on that and now

0:54:10we're going to tell you a precise number

0:54:11of downloads and you won't do it because

0:54:13it's just not enough data and you need

0:54:14to know the exact demos and again where

0:54:15they live what their income is and what

0:54:17things that last click on what the last

0:54:18boss on amazon what cookies been

0:54:20tracking them through their facebook

0:54:22clicks for the last it's just I it's

0:54:26it's a somewhat admirable goal to try to

0:54:29make like a podcast breakout hit but i

0:54:32think the supposedly demands of these

0:54:36people and in this article are totally

0:54:39the wrong way to go about it and one

0:54:42tiny passage that highlighted here is to

0:54:43finish up like makes me just question

0:54:46everything about this is again not a

0:54:47quote and not attributed to anything but

0:54:49it's a the articles as promotion within

0:54:52iTunes which is one of the only reliable

0:54:54ways to build an audience particularly

0:54:55for a new show is decidedly decided by

0:54:58small team blah blah promotion within

0:55:00itunes is not not only not one of the

0:55:05only reliable ways to build an audience

0:55:06but probably one of the worst ways to

0:55:10build an audience because it's like it

0:55:13if you could guarantee the you would

0:55:15have been promoted as the number one

0:55:16podcast on itunes for an entire year

0:55:19with that build an audience vs say if

0:55:23you made a podcast that promise to

0:55:26slowly lay out the plot her star wars

0:55:27episode 8 episode 8 entirely unpromoted

0:55:31in itunes podcast would crush your

0:55:33podcast like it's the only reliable way

0:55:36to build and you build an audience by

0:55:37making things that people like and

0:55:39leveraging existing audience is probably

0:55:42the best way to build nice but the only

0:55:44reliable way like i don't know i can't

0:55:46think of a single person who found their

0:55:48favorite podcast because it was promoted

0:55:50on itunes i'm sure they're out there and

0:55:51I'm sure that they'll send us things but

0:55:52like it's just a warped view of the

0:55:54world of podcast listening like that's

0:55:57not how people discovered cereal people

0:55:59did not discover cereal because it was

0:56:00promoted in itunes it was promoted in

0:56:02itunes because people discovered cereal

0:56:04like it's you know like there is a place

0:56:06for editorial or whatever but if you got

0:56:08in your head the itunes is already this

0:56:11this kingmaker gatekeeper i-i-i don't

0:56:14let your your abdicating all of your

0:56:17responsibility to build your own

0:56:18audience by having a good show and doing

0:56:20your own marketing and stuff like that

0:56:21like again

0:56:22editorials important and they do promote

0:56:24shows and it's important like you know

0:56:25for shows to come out of obscurity that

0:56:29that Apple can you put them in new and

0:56:30noteworthy and whatever whatever weird

0:56:32systems are having and it's a fun little

0:56:35thing but really to frame it as the only

0:56:38reliable way to build an audience

0:56:39particularly for a new show that that

0:56:42just does not match with my

0:56:44understanding of the podcast world at

0:56:46all hot especially when it comes to

0:56:48mass-market shows because the mass

0:56:50market is not trolling the itunes

0:56:51podcast directory

0:56:52they don't even know what podcasts are

0:56:54right they only know because they heard

0:56:55about cereal and that they

0:56:56figured out what podcasts are like

0:56:58that's the problem like by treating

0:57:00apples the whole world

0:57:02II know as you very very well said like

0:57:04you're not only like trying to make them

0:57:07the only platform that matters at all

0:57:08i'm trying to increase their share

0:57:10but you're also kind of investing in the

0:57:12sinking ship because that sixty percent

0:57:14market share that they most likely have

0:57:16among listening that goes down every

0:57:18year

0:57:19believe me I've been watching that's

0:57:21decreasing over time as more podcast

0:57:24players sprout up on iOS and as more

0:57:27people finally get around to living on

0:57:29android is where android so far has been

0:57:31very underrepresented in podcast that's

0:57:33according to most big hosted by an

0:57:36ellipse and used to used to enhance

0:57:37numbers every so often used to be

0:57:39something like eight to one in favor of

0:57:41iOS four like everything show that they

0:57:43host which is a lot of shows now enjoys

0:57:45getting higher

0:57:46you have people like google play and

0:57:48Spotify entering the podcast market in

0:57:51possibly big ways mostly have ended up

0:57:54going and I don't like them but they

0:57:56exist so we'll see how that ends up

0:57:57going but you know you have the podcast

0:58:01market being becoming more and more

0:58:03diverse apple's market shares going down

0:58:06and all the sudden these people want to

0:58:08give Apple a reason to lock things down

0:58:11and dominate that's a terrible idea and

0:58:14also like I said just like the idea of

0:58:16relying on them for your for like all of

0:58:18your audience growth is ridiculous like

0:58:21you know and we know from the app store

0:58:23we know like know everyone who relies

0:58:27only on the app store for their

0:58:28promotion we tell them they're doing it

0:58:30wrong we tell them like no you can't

0:58:31even the apps or people will tell you

0:58:34please don't rely on us like and if if

0:58:37you're trying to get featured by the app

0:58:39store and you have no other marketing

0:58:41that actually hurts your chances of

0:58:43being featured they want to feature

0:58:46things that have real marketing plans

0:58:48it's so the idea of trying to like

0:58:50basically make apple do all your work

0:58:52for you to put your podcast as you said

0:58:55John is terrible also getting back to

0:58:58the ad thing for a second which 10 ties

0:59:00into this all everything that the

0:59:03podcasters are asking Apple to do or

0:59:06asking for

0:59:07is basically comes down to we are not

0:59:10making enough / listener from our ads

0:59:13and we would like to add this tracking

0:59:15so that we can make more money it's it's

0:59:18basically like saying the only way for

0:59:20us to grow is to extract more out of the

0:59:22existing listener base remember what i

0:59:25said earlier about the relative size of

0:59:27the audience between podcasts and the

0:59:29web a great podcast might get a few

0:59:33hundred thousand downloads an episode

0:59:34that would put it in like the top

0:59:36probably five or one percent of podcasts

0:59:40on the web that's nothing

0:59:42if you want to grow your business as

0:59:44podcasters the way for growth is to get

0:59:48more people listening to podcasts and

0:59:50then to get more people listening to

0:59:52your podcast that's obvious like I don't

0:59:55understand how anybody can look at the

0:59:58situation now and say

0:59:58situation now and say

1:00:00well we need to grow that to really grow

1:00:03this we're out we're just growing this

1:00:05old model here we really need is add

1:00:07tech lot

1:00:09no you need more people listen to

1:00:11podcasts you know how you do that it's

1:00:13not by making podcasts suck

1:00:15it's not by getting all creepy on people

1:00:18and making I'm putting all this stuff in

1:00:20their face

1:00:20it's not by putting up a paywall sorry

1:00:22grow the audience that's how that that's

1:00:25the way for revenue growth possibly you

1:00:28start doing all this data mining crap

1:00:30when your ads don't work or when you

1:00:33have saturated the audience you need to

1:00:35find new ways to extract more of what

1:00:37you have

1:00:38we are neither of those things are true

1:00:39for podcasting it's the opposite

1:00:41podcasting has tons of room to grow it

1:00:44is growing not as a hockey stick level

1:00:47you know growth but it is steadily

1:00:48growing over time there's tons of

1:00:50potential to grow into especially as we

1:00:53as we have further penetration of

1:00:55bluetooth and cell phones and cars which

1:00:58is where a lot of listening happens and

1:01:00we have all these new like you know

1:01:01cheap home speaker bluetooth devices

1:01:03people to listen more home any of people

1:01:05getting more and more into the habit of

1:01:06listening to things on their smartphones

1:01:08like there is tons of room for growth

1:01:11here and there are so many people who

1:01:14don't listen to podcast now that's where

1:01:16you focus you focus your effort on

1:01:18growing the pool your we're already

1:01:20making great rates on the ads rates that

1:01:23you know I just like when you expand

1:01:26like coca-cola all these things were

1:01:28like oh we have to expand the brand

1:01:29everything ok so right now we have

1:01:31mostly direct-response advertiser's this

1:01:33is things like Squarespace they like

1:01:35things were like you you you sign up for

1:01:37a service or you buy a product and you

1:01:40give them some kind of coupon or

1:01:41discount code or visit a special URL and

1:01:44they track how many people bought their

1:01:47thing through each show which episode

1:01:49URL and that kind of gives them an idea

1:01:51of how many people might have heard the

1:01:53ad and how much they are willing to pay

1:01:55for future ads as a result of how much

1:01:56they're making from their past adds all

1:01:58these hot dogs articles about how much

1:02:00we have to like you know move into brand

1:02:03advertising they're all like well we

1:02:04could keep hearing the same ads from

1:02:06like Squarespace over and over again

1:02:07ever wonder why they're not dumb

1:02:10they're buying them because they work

1:02:12really well and

1:02:13whatever they're spending on the end of

1:02:14each other said is a really nice and

1:02:16helped by CPM whatever they're spending

1:02:19on the ads they're making that back they

1:02:21can see it in direct response

1:02:22conversions and results

1:02:24the reason why we have so many direct

1:02:27response advertisers and why every

1:02:29podcast for the most part does is

1:02:32because they can directly measure the

1:02:35value they see it and they say we want

1:02:38more cuz these ads are working

1:02:39ridiculously well

1:02:41brand advertising things like oh we're

1:02:44gonna focus working plastico can deliver

1:02:46these billboards for the next 10 years

1:02:47and hope that increases our margin

1:02:48slightly brand advertising by definition

1:02:50is almost impossible to measure it

1:02:54basically goes unmeasured whenever he

1:02:56was basically a shot in the dark here

1:02:57people are just hoping that over time by

1:03:01getting their logo and their name out

1:03:02there and associating happy things with

1:03:05their brand or whatever people start

1:03:06recognizing their brand sales will

1:03:08slowly increase as this recognition

1:03:09build the web has developed such

1:03:11incredibly sophisticated and creepy

1:03:13levels of tracking and analytics and

1:03:15behavioral monitoring and surveillance

1:03:17that they can see to a much greater

1:03:20degree what works and what doesn't

1:03:22granddad's don't pay that much on the

1:03:24web because they can see it's not

1:03:26working when you saying you want brand

1:03:28ads what you're really saying is we're

1:03:30gonna sell brand ads because our eyes

1:03:32don't work so we're gonna sell these to

1:03:34you cope because we know you won't

1:03:35really be able to measure well but coke

1:03:37also isn't interested in the small

1:03:39numbers and Squarespace maybe not

1:03:42Squarespace but some other advertisers

1:03:43that are basically are paying to acquire

1:03:46new customers for some kind of

1:03:47subscription plan may not be able to pay

1:03:49like Coco pay more because brand

1:03:52advertising is by definition a we want

1:03:55the big numbers huge shotgun approach

1:03:57that's the only type of advertising to

1:04:00which this sort of general-purpose broad

1:04:01demographic is actually desirable

1:04:04because that's what we're gone for we

1:04:05want everybody to know cause we don't

1:04:07care who you are what you do what you're

1:04:08interested in you need to know about

1:04:09coal and it's awesome

1:04:11they want the big numbers anything that

1:04:15is acquiring customers even something

1:04:17like a fracture whatever like it i don't

1:04:20think that they that they're not gonna

1:04:22they're not gonna keep the same CPM and

1:04:24pay for a show that

1:04:25give a hundred bringing people to

1:04:26bankrupt the company right and they're

1:04:29not interested they don't they're not

1:04:30interested in spraying there I'd like

1:04:32they'd be overpaying because only a

1:04:33small fraction those people actually

1:04:35interested in signing up would be much

1:04:36better to go on a podcast where much

1:04:38higher percentage of the people listen

1:04:40are into digital photography and making

1:04:42principal whatever you know so I I feel

1:04:44like they want to get those big

1:04:46advertisers because you know the the

1:04:47number on the check is going to be

1:04:49really big and the only people who are

1:04:50going to write that check our people are

1:04:51doing brand advertising and that's the

1:04:53way you get again you know if you want

1:04:55to get a new podcast that that has 200

1:04:57million downloads for every episode i

1:05:00think brand advertising is your only

1:05:02your only path to that and so they

1:05:04they're trying to connect the dots to

1:05:06make that meant by the way like I agree

1:05:08that the the way you would get a big

1:05:10podcast like that as you have to get

1:05:12more people to the podcast but the best

1:05:13way to do that is to keep podcast like

1:05:16the web the reason everybody can and did

1:05:20eventually come to use the web is

1:05:21because it wasn't controlled by

1:05:23Microsoft or Yahoo or whoever else like

1:05:26it was a thing that anyone can implement

1:05:27the web browser anyone can make a

1:05:29website and no one company owns and

1:05:31controls it

1:05:32that's what let it spread everywhere if

1:05:34you try to make apple the king of

1:05:36podcast or Android the king of podcasts

1:05:38or whatever you're narrowing the number

1:05:41of people who can listen to podcast

1:05:42especially if you pick somebody who has

1:05:44a platform because again it's a you took

1:05:46iOS or Android one of them became the

1:05:48only thing then podcasting that matter

1:05:50you're cutting off half of the market

1:05:52right there

1:05:52you want everybody to be able to listen

1:05:54to podcast really easily on no matter

1:05:56what device they have the whatever weird

1:05:58thing they buy in their house or have on

1:06:01their person or in their car or wherever

1:06:03you want everybody listen to podcasts

1:06:05like everybody can go to your website

1:06:06the reason websites have huge amount of

1:06:08traffic is because everybody can go to

1:06:11websites that you doesn't you don't have

1:06:13to have a special kind of computer or

1:06:14special operating system or special

1:06:16application or whatever essentially

1:06:18every platform has some way to browse

1:06:20the web and we're at that point with

1:06:23podcast was just RSS anybody can make a

1:06:25player for it for any applicant for any

1:06:27type of thing

1:06:28any move that big podcasts would do in

1:06:31the hopes of getting like big brand

1:06:32advertising or making a big podcast that

1:06:35tried to make podcasting more more

1:06:38narrow

1:06:39in that way to shoot themselves in the

1:06:40foot because the you know those people

1:06:42are out there you want to make you want

1:06:44to make them be able to listen to

1:06:45podcast no matter where they are what

1:06:47they're doing

1:06:47do not make podcasting tied to a

1:06:49particular store particular application

1:06:51or anything like that we so dumb

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1:09:07plays this is the end of the end so we

1:09:09talked about an episode or two ago how I

1:09:12felt like it's been trendy to dislike

1:09:14the apple watch well it's been trendy to

1:09:18really really really freaking love the

1:09:20Amazon echo i do not have one

1:09:23I don't I don't know that I've ever yet

1:09:25I mean sure probably I've never seen one

1:09:29in person to my recollection but

1:09:31everyone that I know swears by it loves

1:09:33it cetera and so it seems like

1:09:35everyone's getting really infatuated

1:09:36with voice-based control and the people

1:09:40who did

1:09:42serie which was the the you know that

1:09:44software was eventually brought up by

1:09:45Apple and and i believe the company was

1:09:47as well so a lot of the x-series people

1:09:51have gone on to create a live which is

1:09:55kind of the spiritual successor to Siri

1:09:57and they demoed it on monday now I

1:09:59didn't have the time to watch the video

1:10:00but my understanding was this was

1:10:03something pretty darn impressive

1:10:04impressive if you don't think about it

1:10:07too much I guess

1:10:08hey what do you say that oh I have hound

1:10:11I seem that the the things I don't maybe

1:10:14maybe it only bothers people like me but

1:10:17on the flip side but I think none of

1:10:21these things are up to the point where

1:10:22they pass the regular person thresholds

1:10:27of of magic because as we discussed many

1:10:30times in the past with Syria the problem

1:10:31with Syrian things like that is you'll

1:10:34see when you have any kid you serious

1:10:35five seconds people immediately jump to

1:10:37all this is a little person in my

1:10:38computer but obviously it's not and as

1:10:41soon as they discover the very real and

1:10:43very close limits of any of these things

1:10:45though it breaks the illusion it's like

1:10:47oh i thought this was like a little

1:10:49person on my computer I could talk to

1:10:50instead of just crappy program that's

1:10:53like basically boils down to like

1:10:55playing a text adventure game where you

1:10:57have to learn the syntax and what you

1:10:58can say what you can't say and it's

1:11:01disappointing disappointing people know

1:11:02they kind of put in a bin with I thought

1:11:05it was going to be

1:11:05this magical thing where I can talk to a

1:11:07person in my phone really it's just like

1:11:09the voice version of the command line

1:11:11where I have to learn the things that it

1:11:15can do first of all I have to learn the

1:11:16ways i can say the things that it can do

1:11:18and granted there are many ways that you

1:11:20can say it may be more than the average

1:11:22sex adventure but probably about the

1:11:23same as in any good text adventure and

1:11:25the new demo is like showing off context

1:11:28like what kinda remembers last thing I

1:11:30said to it so I can refer back to it

1:11:31using you know if I as long as I use the

1:11:33right words and their the it will

1:11:36understand what I'm talking about and

1:11:37build on my past conversations and it's

1:11:39like I'm having a conversation if you

1:11:40see a demo with the preset script it is

1:11:44it seems to be very impressive until you

1:11:45realize there is only a very small

1:11:48number of things that you can ask about

1:11:50and those things aren't always

1:11:52interesting

1:11:54do you like it's because you want to ask

1:11:56about facts that you can put a wall from

1:11:58Alfre or uh things having to do with the

1:12:01weather or date and time or unit

1:12:03conversions then you can have this

1:12:04amazing but extremely boring

1:12:06conversation about stuff that you don't

1:12:08really care about but if you really want

1:12:09to know something more complicated

1:12:12you better hope that's within the

1:12:14problem and i'm not saying that these

1:12:15are bad products i think they're amazing

1:12:16we need to keep advancing on some it's

1:12:18great but I get like i said as soon as

1:12:19you have a voice talking to you or they

1:12:20can understand what you're saying people

1:12:22immediately jump to this is how 9000 or

1:12:25like it it's a little person but it's

1:12:27totally and all the person it's so far

1:12:29from that that there's always the

1:12:31inevitable let down so as we continue to

1:12:35march their progress there I'm you know

1:12:38I think that's good but this this slight

1:12:40diversion with Eve and river however you

1:12:42want to say and all those other ones

1:12:44bothers me as the type of person who

1:12:47like reads the wire cutter or Marcus

1:12:50headphones reviews or markers lightbulb

1:12:52reviews or anything like that and that

1:12:53the the very boldly stated business

1:12:57model of these companies is will make

1:13:00deals with other companies so you can

1:13:01say you know have a piece of delivered

1:13:03to my house at 5pm and also send flowers

1:13:05to my mom for Mother's Day you like wow

1:13:07what an amazing demo it's like having a

1:13:09personal assistant but you don't get to

1:13:10pick what pizza it is or what company

1:13:13sends the flowers the company they that

1:13:16makes the product that you're talking to

1:13:17does deals with Domino

1:13:19and proflowers and that's what gets sent

1:13:21not because those are the best flowers

1:13:23or because your assistant knows the best

1:13:24flowers to get for your mom or the kind

1:13:26of pieces that you like but because

1:13:28these are the deals the company whose

1:13:30voice agent that you're talking to me

1:13:32you know made partnerships with and so

1:13:35their incentives are all screwed up

1:13:37their incentives of the supposed

1:13:38personal assistant is not to help you

1:13:40get the things that you want in your

1:13:42life it's to dutifully follow through on

1:13:45the business deals that the companies

1:13:46made and all these companies are looking

1:13:47for we make this thing so sticky that

1:13:49people love talking to it and just like

1:13:50rely on it as part of their life then we

1:13:53can charge people a lot of money to you

1:13:56know like the same way that Google in

1:13:57charge money for service we got

1:13:58everybody typing into our searchbox now

1:14:00all of a sudden you buy you buy

1:14:01advertising keywords or search keywords

1:14:04for us it's very bad with everybody

1:14:06there's all the pizza ordering then we

1:14:08can charge whatever pizza company a lot

1:14:09of mind as I did you one of the pizza

1:14:11Steve Pizza comedy films pizza request

1:14:13but you know obviously people like me

1:14:16and I think a lot of people kind of care

1:14:18where their pizza comes from maybe they

1:14:19don't care so much about where the

1:14:20flowers come from but that the model

1:14:23that that they should be presenting is

1:14:25here is artificially intelligent agent

1:14:28or whatever the agents move good

1:14:30nineties apple thing that knowledge

1:14:32navigator can help your life it's

1:14:34supposed to be helping me it's supposed

1:14:36to be like I wanted to do things that

1:14:37you know if it's going to save me work i

1:14:39would go and figure out what's the best

1:14:41dishwasher is and what the comparative

1:14:43features are and stuff like that or you

1:14:45know i would if i move into a new area I

1:14:47would you know troll reviews to try to

1:14:50find out where two people like you know

1:14:51that the best pizzeria you know like

1:14:53ratings are like I wanted to figure out

1:14:56what I want in my life

1:14:58what my needs are and follow through on

1:14:59that but I don't know if there's money

1:15:00to be made in that because we're not

1:15:02willing to pay for that service so

1:15:03someone's gotta pay and the people who

1:15:04are paying his dominoes and you're gonna

1:15:06get a stupid domino's pizza so you get

1:15:09what you deserve you right and it's just

1:15:11it's it's misaligned incentives but I

1:15:13don't know the way out of it because

1:15:14align incentives would be you pay me

1:15:16five dollars a month for the privilege

1:15:17of using a series of even know who wants

1:15:20to do that either because they're not

1:15:21good enough for five dollars a month

1:15:22it's like now I'll just do the web

1:15:24search myself well just go to the wire

1:15:25cutter myself right so I don't know how

1:15:27you get you find your way out of this it

1:15:30could be i don't i don't know

1:15:32it could be that most people are fine

1:15:33with that they're like I don't really

1:15:34want to know or care what deals you make

1:15:36behind the scenes as long as somebody

1:15:38comes to pick up pick up my package

1:15:40I don't care what they ship it by or

1:15:42anything like just they don't they're

1:15:44not as picky the not reading reviews

1:15:45about your lightbulbs right there just

1:15:47like whatever

1:15:48it's just convenient for me to be able

1:15:49to do this and I don't really care what

1:15:51company or product is involved and I

1:15:53don't care what deals are made behind

1:15:55the scenes and I don't care that my

1:15:57needs aren't the most primary thing is a

1:15:58service like a free it's built into my

1:16:00phone or yelled into the air and Amazon

1:16:02echo does it I don't care that all the

1:16:04products are filled through amazon or

1:16:05you know like it's like pushing the

1:16:07buttons of paper towels

1:16:08you know you get the pic was a mother

1:16:10has a wide right but I don't care they

1:16:11all come from amazon maybe those people

1:16:13are fine with that but for me personally

1:16:15I don't like it and i also think that

1:16:17the misaligned incentives will just

1:16:21become a larger and larger problem until

1:16:24unless these services we can actually

1:16:26become so good that people are willing

1:16:28to pay for them because once you pay

1:16:29five dollars a month to have a personal

1:16:30assistant you could just shout orders to

1:16:32and we do stuff and was not actually a

1:16:34person you didn't have to like care

1:16:35about their feelings and well-being or

1:16:37anything like that's the dream of an

1:16:38artificial intelligent personal

1:16:40assistant for every movie about the

1:16:41future regions yell things into the air

1:16:42and things get done and what you love an

1:16:44assistant learned more about you about

1:16:46what you like and what you dislike and

1:16:48did the research for you and

1:16:49collaborated with other agents and you

1:16:51know just sort of asked your reaction to

1:16:53the meal you're just eating and instead

1:16:54of you having to put a star right like

1:16:56that's the magical future we think about

1:16:58it I think everyone's going to pay for

1:16:59that because paying for an actual

1:17:01personal systems and do all that stuff

1:17:02is really expensive five dollars a month

1:17:04looks like a bargain but we're not there

1:17:06yet the process just aren't that good so

1:17:08in the meantime dominoes will be paying

1:17:10them to deliver you execrable piece of

1:17:12your house I love that like you that

1:17:14your dream scenario here is that you

1:17:18that you can basically have a virtual

1:17:20person who is totally basically your

1:17:22slave and you can be a jerk to it's not

1:17:25actually a person just a computer but

1:17:27you don't be a jerk to but you also

1:17:29don't have to like worry about like you

1:17:31know they don't don't sleep don't eat

1:17:33don't get annoyed when you're frustrated

1:17:35don't get in order to yell but like

1:17:36that's why we use computers because we

1:17:38don't have to have this constant like

1:17:39we're not but we're not trying to

1:17:41emotionally support our computers most

1:17:42of the time

1:17:43we just want them to do what we tell

1:17:44them to do when we do it is their

1:17:46machines and they're not people right

1:17:47and that's the dream of having the

1:17:50computers you know just think it's not

1:17:52as a personal assistant but rather think

1:17:53of it as like the using using a computer

1:17:57without having to sit in front of a

1:17:59computer and click on things are

1:18:00touchscreen or type things in just

1:18:01talking to the air and then somewhere

1:18:03else the computer is doing your thing

1:18:04and and the whole machine learning angle

1:18:06like the same way a personal assistant

1:18:09would learn your preferences and

1:18:11everything that's what computers are

1:18:12great lots of netflix is greater by

1:18:14seeing what we watch and we have to help

1:18:16with a silly way of hitting stars and

1:18:17stuff but eventually netflix it's good

1:18:18to think i think you will like this

1:18:20movie based on movies you've seen in the

1:18:22past and have like it's incredibly

1:18:26primitive compared to what we could do

1:18:27if we had a conversational long-term

1:18:29relationship with a you know a

1:18:32voice-controlled thing that was on our

1:18:34side and was entirely made to try to

1:18:36make our lives better but again that

1:18:39there's no there's no business model

1:18:40that the textile isn't quite there but i

1:18:42feel like i can get there eventually and

1:18:43once we do

1:18:44someone is going to get five dollars a

1:18:46month from hell of a lot of people when

1:18:47that becomes good enough

1:18:49well but it doesn't have to be that it's

1:18:51five dollars a month I mean it could be

1:18:53that this future Syria or what have you

1:18:57it takes a cut of whatever it

1:19:00facilitates a sale for so but that's a

1:19:02distance it hasn't sent revised to make

1:19:04deals with the put the highest bidder

1:19:06who makes crappy pizza irregular

1:19:08heartbeats a problem for perhaps the

1:19:10first of all domino's pizza is not

1:19:11crappy second of all my god it's so bad

1:19:14what are you talking about her job

1:19:15yeah I'm with John sorry Casey that's

1:19:17that's all you'll excuse us oh well

1:19:19you're way too snooty anyway the point

1:19:21is that II why couldn't we have a

1:19:24hypothetical conversation where I say

1:19:26see that like a pizza please

1:19:27sure where would you like it from papa

1:19:30johns or dominoes or what having

1:19:32presumably would have to be some

1:19:33national chain so I'm not it's not going

1:19:34to happen but then how do you get paid

1:19:36how does that service get paid you think

1:19:37it's just taking a cut of that because

1:19:38they were really kind of like Grandpop

1:19:40or whatever like they have to kind of

1:19:41opt-in the money's gotta come from

1:19:42somewhere because unless you want to pay

1:19:43extra for that pizza and like have this

1:19:45you know series surcharge of experts

1:19:48group of so freaking expensive like this

1:19:50lots of services that kind of do a small

1:19:51portion of what we would imagine beaver

1:19:53serie doing but all of them the

1:19:55incentive is this is great if you have

1:19:57money to burn and you can't be bothered

1:19:59to go someplace and you don't want your

1:20:00food being cold by the time it gets here

1:20:02you don't mind waiting a long time after

1:20:03time doesn't work like this there's so

1:20:05many caveat but the the money is a big

1:20:07deterrent five dollars a month for the

1:20:11blanket service of essentially just

1:20:12connecting the dots the things that you

1:20:13could do themselves that works

1:20:15financially if you have enough people do

1:20:16it as does dominoes being the exclusive

1:20:19will bring you a crappy pizza provider

1:20:21but I feel like the percentage of

1:20:22everything is just back to the group

1:20:23model and its yeah that's that has

1:20:27proven to be good for you know in my day

1:20:31we'd set ups but like be good for people

1:20:34who with high paying jobs and not a lot

1:20:36of time and and and more money my money

1:20:40is less important to them than their

1:20:41time and so they do that and even those

1:20:43things you kind of like yeah sometimes

1:20:45that just it's more worth of you to go

1:20:47there yourself another thing I don't

1:20:48know everyone needs try to would any of

1:20:50us would anyone order pizza in that way

1:20:52even if you would like to help if you

1:20:55could tell the store that but it charge

1:20:57you twenty percent on top of that would

1:20:58you order pizza that way I mean it was

1:21:01in a position where I didn't want to sit

1:21:03down at a computer or an ipad and iphone

1:21:05and I just wanted to within 30 seconds

1:21:08say hey see get me over i forgot i can't

1:21:11say that I'm sorry wants to it might be

1:21:13fit huh yeah what was that upgrade a

1:21:17hotel huh

1:21:18thank you i want to say aloha a hotel

1:21:20finally get me outta here get me a pizza

1:21:24a large pepperoni no pineapple pizza

1:21:28from dominos delivered to my house your

1:21:31bad taste continues like you're in favor

1:21:34of this bolt serie pepperoni and

1:21:36pineapple

1:21:37I all have not tried every and pineapple

1:21:40yet but i do like pineapple and ham

1:21:42I and I don't get that a lot of New

1:21:43Yorkers don't really do it here because

1:21:45it's not canonical John but but i do

1:21:47enjoy that combo when I can get it but

1:21:51yeah I normally I mean I like pepperoni

1:21:52and pineapple so you know there was a

1:21:55ham and pineapple discussion but i'm not

1:21:57sure if it's on a podcast that has yet

1:21:58to be released did you hear me talk

1:22:00about Hawaiian pizza on a podcast if not

1:22:02i haven't been released so I don't spoil

1:22:04it I did hear you talk about it i forget

1:22:06which shows it was on

1:22:08yeah same here it might even when you

1:22:09get an upgraded you do that recently

1:22:11right yeah maybe that was it but anyway

1:22:13uh yeah I don't wanna get into it is so

1:22:15the point is the point is the point is

1:22:17casey has terrible taste in pizza so his

1:22:19answer to this question is irrelevant or

1:22:21whatever if you see you Marco and john /

1:22:24you switch the hamburgers if you need to

1:22:26know because then I'm gonna tell you I

1:22:28think Wendy's is just fine then you

1:22:29gotta bust my balls about that too and

1:22:31whatever like this have a barbecue

1:22:33oh it would you get from dallas BBQ

1:22:35because it doesn't matter

1:22:36oh really well barbeques barbeque I mean

1:22:38just nostalgia barbecues fine but for

1:22:41all these things like this you know if

1:22:42the money is going to become taking your

1:22:43cut somebody's gotta come from somewhere

1:22:44so it's got to be a surcharge right

1:22:46because I unless you is you have to have

1:22:48deals if you're going to take a cut like

1:22:50the price remains the same but they

1:22:51caught us in you have to have that deals

1:22:53for that if you don't then you just have

1:22:54to add a surcharge because then you

1:22:56don't need deals on either end but the

1:22:57surcharges usually pretty significant

1:23:00and that's in addition to whatever the

1:23:02additional things that charging you to

1:23:03deliver it plus tip and all that other

1:23:04stuff that's the thing exactly though

1:23:06because the delivery surcharge is a

1:23:08surcharge you could if you wanted to get

1:23:12in your car or ride your bike or walk or

1:23:14what have you and go fetch your pizza

1:23:16but sometimes you just want the

1:23:19convenience of this move me old

1:23:21magically showing up at your doorstep

1:23:23I personally cannot imagine a time where

1:23:25i would want to say hey uh why telephone

1:23:29get me a Domino's large pizza but there

1:23:32are certainly people in the world that

1:23:34may be willing to pay a dollar or two or

1:23:37whatever the case may be to alway

1:23:39telephone themselves a pizza

1:23:41I mean they're dominoes let you order

1:23:43pizza with emoji by some mechanism never

1:23:45tried so I would imagine that there are

1:23:47people that are doing that 20 wonder why

1:23:49dominance has to make it so easy to

1:23:51order pizza

1:23:53you don't find anything you want to

1:23:55believe dominoes as gross that's fine

1:23:57all i know is what you know just listen

1:23:59to the forthcoming episode of analog

1:24:00where we probably won't cut the

1:24:02discussion about people that are too

1:24:04good for chain restaurants and how much

1:24:06I hate all of them which is basically

1:24:08everyone in the chat room and the two of

1:24:09you there are good chain restaurants

1:24:11there just are very few good chain pizza

1:24:13restaurants and i think most would be

1:24:15local chains that you wouldn't have

1:24:17heard of but it's fine that's fine

1:24:19also if you're going to have changed

1:24:21pizza I'm

1:24:21sure dominoes even the best one of those

1:24:23what would it be

1:24:25I was always a bigger fan of like the

1:24:27really crappy ones like little caesars

1:24:28or bus to hunt because like because like

1:24:31if you're gonna go with some really

1:24:33crappy big grand pizza

1:24:36you might as well go like super crappy

1:24:38and get like all the junk food value of

1:24:40it i feel like i would get something

1:24:43frozen from the supermarket before I

1:24:45would take delivery from any change yeah

1:24:47i did i did a lot of those to make a lot

1:24:48of like that and those are not good

1:24:50don't get me wrong they're terrible

1:24:51that's how bad i think the delivery is

1:24:53it would take a red baron pizza /

1:24:56dominoes not not red baron but maybe

1:24:58something else

1:24:59what is the thing it's not delivery its

1:25:01DiGiorno when that marketing werks night

1:25:03I don't know what kind of be like a

1:25:05matchup like even and anyway like we

1:25:09should've got into the pit stop and what

1:25:11always it's going good

1:25:12why it was so moving on your imagine no

1:25:15I can't get past this i can't imagine a

1:25:18world where somebody says man I'd really

1:25:21like some pizza and I'd like to get

1:25:24dominos and he in you have to be like mm

1:25:27dominoes is not good enough for me

1:25:29I'm sorry we're gonna have to go

1:25:30somewhere else well you know sometimes

1:25:32you have these things you don't like but

1:25:34i think its arm even if this is more of

1:25:36an issue of me even when Marco sings

1:25:37market like he has his fancy coffee

1:25:39right but when he's on the road will get

1:25:40starbucks yeah precisely when I'm on the

1:25:42road i will I would be the equivalent of

1:25:44me is I would choose not to have coffee

1:25:46sometimes i do like that's the level on

1:25:48that with it same thing with pizza bagel

1:25:50I just don't get a pizza if I can't get

1:25:53good pizza and it's fine i eat something

1:25:55else and if someone else gets bad we

1:25:56don't eat it you know you got to eat to

1:25:58stay alive right it'sit's not but I will

1:25:59never choose it like it whereas Marco

1:26:01because he's addicted will choose to get

1:26:03our weapons because it's like well it's

1:26:05better than no coffee but no it's not

1:26:07better than no pizza no pizza beats

1:26:09Domino's Pizza my God if I listeners if

1:26:12I ever get to the point that I'm this

1:26:14fussy about freaking anything it's not

1:26:16it's not funny it's just like it's just

1:26:18a preference like i don't i don't

1:26:19consider it the same category of food

1:26:21it's like i'll just pick a different

1:26:22plenty of kind of foods to choose from

1:26:24like I'm not that picky about burgers

1:26:25right I'll many more options for burgers

1:26:28including ones from chains and lots of

1:26:29things from change but when it comes to

1:26:30pizza i will just pick a different food

1:26:32product that i don't think it's being

1:26:34bob is just kind of like that i don't i

1:26:36don't like that doesn't taste good to me

1:26:38i don't want it and I don't need it for

1:26:40chemical reason so i will just pick

1:26:42something else like a I don't have a

1:26:44sandwich from subway then bad pizza

1:26:46I don't know what that sandwich from

1:26:48subway are are probably the bottom rung

1:26:51of things that you can call sandwich but

1:26:52we watched as people know the chat room

1:26:54we've lost the dominoes brand

1:26:56sponsorship for losing the subway / and

1:26:57sponsorship from the show that this is

1:26:59why we can't have brand advertisers and

1:27:01podcasts before he pissed off all the

1:27:03brain will take Waffle House sponsorship

1:27:04so because they embrace what they are

1:27:08it was more of a steak and shake person

1:27:09myself over waffle house I don't even

1:27:11understand why subway so bad you're

1:27:13watching the created in front of you you

1:27:16don't understand why subway as bad

1:27:18please can you stop please don't know

1:27:20I'm I'm trying I'm trying to trying to

1:27:22help you here do not know i just want

1:27:25your players not until you want to die

1:27:26on just now finally I'm not saying that

1:27:28it's the hill wanna die I don't want

1:27:30your help i want to be able to go to any

1:27:32friggin restaurant I want and be

1:27:34genuinely happy with the meal I've had I

1:27:36have gone to subway although not lately

1:27:38and been genuinely happy with me off hat

1:27:40are there better sandwiches in the world

1:27:42absofreakinlutely does that count as a

1:27:44restaurant the show please I haven't

1:27:48been this angry you too since the mac

1:27:49pro discussions we could just if i ever

1:27:55get this policy and high maintenance

1:27:56just kicked me in the shins what vodka

1:27:58would you drink AZ would you drink that

1:28:00they hit the big handle of like the

1:28:01cheap Russian whatever vodka that comes

1:28:03in the plastic bottle would you think

1:28:04that they just going to run through

1:28:05brita filters and it's fine

1:28:07they had that job for you didn't you

1:28:11you're privy to this because this stupid

1:28:12stupid secret of vodka is that did you

1:28:15know that whatever i saw that i don't

1:28:16know i don't think i don't think about

1:28:17the boards i saw that thing with the

1:28:19filters like all right everyone who

1:28:20filled with vodka is just I thought

1:28:22those BS III don't exactly you're free

1:28:24to but I thought that was BS maybe it is

1:28:25BS i might be wrong i'm entirely willing

1:28:29to believe it especially without

1:28:31all of the first few drinks anyway you

1:28:32can just like secretly switched the crap

1:28:34yourself at home Care's well that's

1:28:35convenient here's the thing like I would

1:28:37absolutely choose a fussy vodka like

1:28:39Tito's if I had the choice but if I

1:28:41don't have the choice or if I'm or like

1:28:44a rail broadcast on happy hour you know

1:28:45you do is put a couple lemons in there

1:28:47wait a second for to get a little bit

1:28:48watered down with a little bit of lemon

1:28:50in it and then you are fine i prefer the

1:28:53titos for sure but I am perfectly happy

1:28:55with a slightly watered down slightly

1:28:57lemony vodka and I am and I'd be happier

1:29:00about that having saved a bunch of money

1:29:02off getting a real one instead of a

1:29:04Tito's I i would be happy with that

1:29:07although you that is the best example of

1:29:09heard so far me being fussy wouldn't you

1:29:11ruin like a $13 profilter by converting

1:29:15your cheaper market into $13 more

1:29:17expensive vodka and a snowman you still

1:29:20come out ahead of you run it through

1:29:21enough times that so its equivalent like

1:29:23the five-hundred-dollar bottle is there

1:29:25five more vodka is like it's not good

1:29:27i'm sure there is i'm absolutely sure

1:29:29there is other absolutely and i should

1:29:31also note that my fussy vodka Tito's is

1:29:33like the cheapest of the fussy vodkas

1:29:36which is part of the reason why I like

1:29:37it so much

1:29:38remember when when you when you were

1:29:40coming over and we bought a bottle so

1:29:41that you would not you know judge our

1:29:43vaca collection so judge of things

1:29:45no I remember being very surprised how

1:29:47expensive was because the way you talked

1:29:49about it I thought it would be like a

1:29:50really premium priced one but no turns

1:29:53out vodka just terrible nobody president

1:29:55very high it's not terrible you gin

1:29:57drinker you are didn't gin drinker

1:29:59aren't you know how's your grass tastes

1:30:01like I i occasionally drink in i had not

1:30:04by itself and I i prefer gin-based

1:30:06drinks like martinis to drinking it

1:30:08straight but oh god a gin martini i

1:30:11forgot i I'm not that much of a little

1:30:12person I I much prefer either not

1:30:14drinking or drinking beer i'll see like

1:30:16to drink your bread i understand i'm

1:30:20gonna get so much angry email i'm gonna

1:30:22have to quit the show it's gonna be the

1:30:24worst i don't know i tried to help me

1:30:25with the subway think it's not too late

1:30:27as Marco to cut it out

1:30:28no this is meaning you can let it stay

1:30:31at right try to get this back in the

1:30:33real slightly i will say John you were

1:30:35you were seemingly puzzled by the idea

1:30:37of why would somebody pay like a like a

1:30:3920-percent premium for the convenience

1:30:41of ordering through this through like a

1:30:43cylinder robot

1:30:44boys not why but that your audience is

1:30:46limited because i know those services

1:30:48exist i know the people who use them but

1:30:49they're never gonna be mass market

1:30:50because twenty percent is just too much

1:30:52for most people

1:30:53I'll tell you what though I would

1:30:54probably pay roughly that premium to

1:30:57avoid talking to somebody on the phone i

1:31:00hear ya again yeah i know i understand

1:31:02like that's theirs if that was my only

1:31:04alternative like because like a lot of

1:31:06places around here that you know like

1:31:07you know in in the area that I think

1:31:09John both of us live in there's not a

1:31:11lot of changes present and a lot of

1:31:14place the order from just like

1:31:15independently-owned places and so

1:31:17anything that relies on like you know

1:31:19really convenient like or you can order

1:31:21with our app or things like that like

1:31:23most of the places around here don't

1:31:24support that because they dared not a

1:31:25big enough operation to be integrated

1:31:28that way to have their own app or

1:31:29whatever else which means a i can use

1:31:32Apple pay anywhere i can use my chip

1:31:34card anywhere even you know in most

1:31:36places heat her and be the you know they

1:31:39don't support like it any of these

1:31:40automated ways of ordering so if i want

1:31:42to order something i'm still doing it

1:31:44the way the San Francisco people think

1:31:45is like barbaric of like calling them on

1:31:48the phone and place an order for

1:31:50delivery or going to going to pick up my

1:31:51car and I hate talking on the phone so

1:31:55much especially too nerdy introverts

1:31:57with with disposable income again it's a

1:32:00narrow market like it where the

1:32:02potential for agents that can do things

1:32:05conversationally without you having to

1:32:07type things or really pay attention just

1:32:09yelling commands out into the air the

1:32:10potential for that is mass market but

1:32:12the number of people who are currently

1:32:14willing to pay to avoid phone calls and

1:32:18stuff like and and don't blink at twenty

1:32:20percent is just too small

1:32:23like I and I throw these things with the

1:32:25that's another thing against these

1:32:27things that are funded by having deals

1:32:31with providers of their services is that

1:32:34exactly the people who are the nerdy

1:32:36introverted people who don't make phone

1:32:38calls those are exactly the people read

1:32:40the wire cutter and obsess over which

1:32:42light bulbs are going to get and those

1:32:44people will not be happy not being able

1:32:46to choose who provides the flowers or

1:32:48even who gives them their weather

1:32:49reported like those are exactly the

1:32:50people who want the the thing that's

1:32:52going to use big data to figure out what

1:32:56the best whatever

1:32:57is and learn your preferences and do all

1:32:59that stuff they don't want to be hemmed

1:33:01into you know particular vendors and so

1:33:04I maybe was just hoping to be purchased

1:33:07by Apple or Google or alphabet or

1:33:10whatever and that's their biggest plan

1:33:13there but I i I'm not a fan of this

1:33:16model where the product isn't good

1:33:19enough for users to pay for it yet and

1:33:21the way they make their money is with

1:33:22back in deals and you have this agent

1:33:24who you can't do you have this personal

1:33:26assistant who can do a limited number of

1:33:27things hopefully if you get the syntax

1:33:29right and you have no control of our

1:33:32awareness over the companies that are

1:33:34filling the things he seemingly no way

1:33:37to get feedback about how well it went

1:33:39when the pizza right did you like it or

1:33:41did you not like you can just get me a

1:33:42pizza but not for that last place that

1:33:43was gross so going back to the original

1:33:46topic here these voice assistant things

1:33:48my I think there's a lot more to discuss

1:33:50here we're gonna have time for today

1:33:52honestly there's a lot more discuss here

1:33:53about just how these things are and and

1:33:55the kind of us runs first of all I think

1:33:57it would be a hilarious business model

1:33:59if the series founders just kept making

1:34:02things selling them to apple and then

1:34:05just quitting and making the next thing

1:34:06and then apple buys that one

1:34:08people do that all the time that's the

1:34:10serial entrepreneur thing you make a

1:34:12start-up you you know exactly what to

1:34:13make you know you that you have a

1:34:15multiple potential buyers you play them

1:34:17off each other you sell you do the next

1:34:18one and what you get to do i guess that

1:34:20is during all that time do the fun part

1:34:22of that you like starting the company

1:34:23doing the exciting thing or whatever and

1:34:25you just have to exit after exit that's

1:34:27that's the way some people live their

1:34:29lives totally viable business model

1:34:30especially in this day so I it i do

1:34:34think you know getting back as they

1:34:35wouldn't be episode of the show without

1:34:37a completed but Apple we almost made it

1:34:39I know I'm a little bit worried that

1:34:41this is an area where like you know

1:34:43Apple started this game really like

1:34:46Apple came out with Siri in 2011 right

1:34:502011 and you know it

1:34:53Apple started this whole thing really

1:34:55like you know they were there was voice

1:34:56command stuff before that but Syria was

1:34:58not took it to another level and

1:35:00integrated with the phone and you know

1:35:02it was it was a big deal and then since

1:35:04then

1:35:05Cirie has advanced but fairly slowly and

1:35:09in fairly small steps while the same

1:35:12time it seems like now there are

1:35:15multiple companies there's amazon

1:35:18there's how hounds are other amazon

1:35:20hound the vibe give

1:35:23there's all these companies now coming

1:35:25out with even better stuff it's like a

1:35:27giant seem like a generation ahead of

1:35:29Siri in in like the the intelligence the

1:35:31recognition and the accuracy and things

1:35:33like that it seems like Apple kind of

1:35:35started this and now everyone's kind of

1:35:37over running them and I don't think

1:35:39apple is like hustling I I've used I've

1:35:43used this this work before that it

1:35:45seemed like apple recently lacks hustle

1:35:47this is the only area this applies to

1:35:49wear like Apple can start something and

1:35:51everyone else kind of rushes and does

1:35:53their own version of it better

1:35:54apple just kind of can't keep up is this

1:35:57a problem well that i would call hustle

1:35:59in this case like you remember when when

1:36:01jobs.can the the atg Apple technology

1:36:05group for advanced technology group

1:36:06everybody G stands for someone someone

1:36:08who works at up all through it but

1:36:10anyway like Apple used to do way more

1:36:11basic research type stuff like that

1:36:13whole department whose job was to do

1:36:15like basic research type things and in

1:36:18theory maybe we'll come up with a couple

1:36:21ideas that other groups in the company

1:36:23that made actual products would do it

1:36:24Steve Jobs concentrated the whole

1:36:25company i'm like no don't do

1:36:26pie-in-the-sky wouldn't it be cool if

1:36:29let's investigate this kind of

1:36:30technology that family breakfast or used

1:36:32to work at Apple for crying out loud

1:36:33right and jobs like no we want to make

1:36:35great products that ship now and they've

1:36:37done that and that's a very successful

1:36:39advanced technology group that

1:36:41yeah the helpful k see listings in the

1:36:43chatroom what we want to make actual

1:36:47when my actual products because it's it

1:36:50doesn't do anybody good to have these

1:36:51research ideas and maybe one of them

1:36:53shows up many years later but things

1:36:56like Siri that's the only real way you

1:36:58advance that is with some amount of

1:37:00basic research I feel like Apple found a

1:37:02company that was doing this thing

1:37:03whatever the esri company overcome be

1:37:05Cirie came from that already had done

1:37:07the basic research acquired them

1:37:08productized it and then is working the

1:37:11improvements to Syria talking about a

1:37:13lot of them have to do with productize

1:37:15improvements make it more reliable make

1:37:17it faster building on a different

1:37:18platform but the basic research needed

1:37:20to take series to the next level

1:37:22I don't know if that is budgeted for

1:37:24accounted for dealt with within the

1:37:26realm of Syria that product like so

1:37:28there they feel like they're advancing

1:37:29the product and meanwhile the founders

1:37:31had left was like I don't want to just

1:37:32incremental advances product or make it

1:37:34more reliable fast like that's your

1:37:35problem not interested in that I'm

1:37:37interested in how do you make the next

1:37:39grade personal assistant or whatever and

1:37:43the fact that they felt like they had to

1:37:44leave Apple to do that

1:37:46I mean maybe it's you know maybe they're

1:37:48there misinform really there was a place

1:37:49in grappling do that basic research and

1:37:51it should have been part of the plan or

1:37:52whatever but the apple today is much

1:37:55less focused on basic research stuff and

1:37:58and they do like the things they do like

1:38:00all that research in touch screens and

1:38:01stuff like that that's not the same as

1:38:03basic research it's more like free

1:38:06production product things like ideas for

1:38:08future concrete products and again I

1:38:10think this is a great strategy and it

1:38:11gives you great products instead of just

1:38:12great concept videos don't really do

1:38:14anything it's been the cornerstone of

1:38:15Apple success so you can't really fault

1:38:17him for that but I think it's also the

1:38:19reason that Google who just tons of

1:38:21crazy ideas and basic research stuff

1:38:23in-house that just never goes anywhere

1:38:24which we criticize them for and startups

1:38:27who their whole point is like that you

1:38:28have a great idea let's see it and half

1:38:30of them died you know care but if i end

1:38:31up being successful as we said before

1:38:33about just buy them again that i think

1:38:36is actually have a viable strategy like

1:38:38if they can't or don't want to support

1:38:41that type of advancement in house allow

1:38:44it to flourish out in the market

1:38:46wait for all the crappy ones to die find

1:38:48the ones that are left and buy them at

1:38:49the right time because one thing Apple

1:38:51does have is a lot of money so maybe

1:38:53Apple vibes live and the next version of

1:38:55series powered by that and who could say

1:38:57that's a bad strategy it's just

1:38:58uncomfortable during this time now where

1:39:00we see like you know seemingly everybody

1:39:03else can do serie better than apple can

1:39:05and apples just barely working on can we

1:39:07make existing serie reliable and a

1:39:09little bit smarter and expand the

1:39:11capabilities and by the way still no api

1:39:13so no real ecosystem or whatever and

1:39:15that I think is uncomfortable but I

1:39:16don't think it's insurmountable because

1:39:18you just throw money at whatever the

1:39:20most people think the problem is if

1:39:22Google is the one who does that you know

1:39:24Syria better than Syria which arguably

1:39:26they already have this google is not

1:39:27going to sell you their stuff so that's

1:39:29a problem for Apple but the vivre is not

1:39:32a problem for Apple it's a it's a it's

1:39:34opportune

1:39:34I'm going with vibe now that's the the

1:39:38HTC be our thing

1:39:40yeah but I'm never going to get that is

1:39:41that leaves two I don't even now that's

1:39:43viv

1:39:44alright thanks 143 sponsors this week

1:39:46fracture freshbooks and back plays and

1:39:48we will see you next week

1:39:51now the show is over they didn't even

1:39:56mean to begin because it was accidental

1:40:00it was accidental John research Margo

1:40:06and Casey would let you

1:40:08because it was accidentally was

1:40:11accidental

1:40:13you can find the show know today

1:40:16DP die and if twitter follow them

1:40:23yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a

1:40:29co-pay rm20 Marco Arment and our AC

1:40:36syracuse it

1:40:49so Instagram change their icon everyone

1:40:54lost their I don't like the icon that

1:40:56much but I don't think it's the total

1:40:58dumpster fire that everyone else is

1:41:00pretty bad it's pretty bad its remember

1:41:02one web two point was the thing you guys

1:41:03remember web 2.0 yeah gradients and

1:41:05rounded corners

1:41:06yeah the web 2.0 parody sites that would

1:41:08like make fun of all the design tropes

1:41:11point out the Instagram icon looks like

1:41:14a modern version of making fun of the

1:41:16flat design tropes I could see that give

1:41:19you if you tried to do a parody iconic

1:41:21like imagine the Instagram icon adopted

1:41:24all of the current fashion trends in the

1:41:26most obvious and glaring ways you would

1:41:28get that stupid thing but I don't think

1:41:30it's that bad i mean it's not as bad as

1:41:31domino's pizza or vodka

1:41:33yeah I like it it's fine whatever like

1:41:36it has some things going for it

1:41:38especially look at their alternate

1:41:40designs and boring some of those where I

1:41:41like the design that was like a a black

1:41:43square with a white circle in the middle

1:41:45of it like just now let's workshop that

1:41:48a little bit more at least this one has

1:41:51something to it will stand out a little

1:41:54bit on people screens because it's not

1:41:56just a flat color like has so many

1:42:00people said on Twitter and as I've said

1:42:02about windows XP and bumper sounds in

1:42:04the end it doesn't matter that much

1:42:06because long-term eventually you will

1:42:08come to associate with whatever the hell

1:42:10image they make you will come to

1:42:11associate that with instagram and kids

1:42:12who are just getting the first iphones

1:42:14now don't know what the old icon looks

1:42:15like we'll be fine with it and order

1:42:16screws in but it is not the type of i

1:42:19think that that explains why it's not a

1:42:24disaster but I think you can also have

1:42:27an icon that the initial impression is

1:42:30that it's a nice well-designed pleasing

1:42:32icon and it also will come to be

1:42:35associated with the application that you

1:42:36know and love like you don't have to say

1:42:38that as if it's an either/or well you

1:42:39can have an icon that is immediately

1:42:40attracted but it will be crap long-term

1:42:42now will also be good long-term so I

1:42:45feel like this one is a missed

1:42:47opportunity to make a better icon and I

1:42:49don't particularly like it but it'll be

1:42:51fine it's not it's not disastrous like

1:42:53was the disastrous one like when we

1:42:54tried to do that tropicana orange juice

1:42:56and a backpedal not you always know

1:42:57disaster if they change their minds

1:42:59come back into shows from now and see if

1:43:01they change the icon back but i have a

1:43:02feeling the wall because it's not that

1:43:03bad

1:43:04the other changes they've made recently

1:43:06or more offensive that like the icon

1:43:09like they replaced one crap icon with

1:43:11another crap icon like the old icon was

1:43:14crap to it was just our family crap that

1:43:16was that had a really good branding like

1:43:18it was it was it looked great in ios6

1:43:21right and i stayed a long time but at a

1:43:23certain point when you're the last one

1:43:24standing I think you could become sort

1:43:26of an act of defiance or like a quark

1:43:30and you know the only one only one icon

1:43:33gets to do that you can have a home

1:43:35screen that has like six icons it still

1:43:36looks like I OSX but if only one does it

1:43:38like all right

1:43:40sure go with that but yeah it didn't to

1:43:42be updated and they had a difficult

1:43:43challenge but I inside the app i

1:43:45actually like I like the like the fact

1:43:47that it doesn't look like the essential

1:43:49item on the toolbar is constantly

1:43:50selected like this like that stupid blue

1:43:52is gone i'm pretty big fan

1:43:54yeah I completely agree i really really

1:43:57like the the new look of the app and I

1:44:01think you and I are mostly on the same

1:44:03page about the icon like I don't love it

1:44:04but I don't think it's bad I i also

1:44:07didn't think the last one was bad yes it

1:44:09looked outdated but I I completely

1:44:11concur that the branding was great i

1:44:13think i would have preferred just a

1:44:14flattened or perhaps simplified simplify

1:44:17that about a simplified version of the

1:44:20old icon but i would have been pretty

1:44:22timid though if they did that everyone

1:44:23like I go you did the obvious thing you

1:44:27just made a flat shaded version of the

1:44:28camera and I i think that would be more

1:44:30difficult i think that actually less

1:44:32successful than this because I yeah your

1:44:34brother may be immediately kind of

1:44:36inoffensive you won't have gone anywhere

1:44:38this is at least is you know that you

1:44:41can tell they made a change it's not

1:44:42like it's a subtle tweak nope big change

1:44:45well it on top of that this icon

1:44:47definitely stands out which presumably

1:44:49is the goal right it's not another damn

1:44:52blue icon you know it's it's something

1:44:54that is a color palette that looks

1:44:57different than anything else i have on

1:45:00my home screen and of course that may

1:45:02not be true for everyone but it's

1:45:03certainly the case on my phone I mean it

1:45:05jumps out at me on my home screen it is

1:45:07on my very very first home screen

1:45:09because that's how much i love this damn

1:45:11ass

1:45:11so I i think the icons ok i'm sure all

1:45:16come to think it's decent over time like

1:45:18you said John but I completely

1:45:20completely agree i love the muted look

1:45:23of the app itself so that damn near all

1:45:26the color is either your profile

1:45:29pictures or the actual photos on

1:45:31Instagram I really really like it i

1:45:33would pay money to get rid of the ads

1:45:35though the ads on my Instagram feed are

1:45:37just oppressive like I don't thought

1:45:39maybe I don't follow enough people but

1:45:40it seems like every fifth thing is a

1:45:42giant and I I'm seeing are rather

1:45:45scrolling pass without looking way too

1:45:47many freaking add the Instagram like

1:45:48please i will give you i guess i would

1:45:50give them a dollar a month maybe that's

1:45:52not worth it

1:45:52I'm so just continue to scroll past the

1:45:54edge but i know some people like oh I

1:45:56don't see any ads in my feeding I don't

1:45:57know what Albert my trip to make them

1:45:59spam me with that like crazy but too

1:46:02many too many ads yeah I mean for a

1:46:05while I had no ads and it was great

1:46:07then a few months ago I started getting

1:46:09a very heavy add like we are describing

1:46:11and it really almost rude instagram for

1:46:13me and I didn't go back for a while I

1:46:16guess my engagement dropped and then

1:46:18recently I just kind of stopped seeing

1:46:20ads like they did like flip back off for

1:46:23me but the other day about two days ago

1:46:26I somehow got switched to the

1:46:30algorithmic timeline and you know what I

1:46:33they could put any icon they wanted into

1:46:36the ugliest graphical theme they wanted

1:46:38just give me my stupid chronological

1:46:41timeline back because the algorithmic

1:46:43timeline

1:46:44I mean I I'm just not used to it so

1:46:47maybe i will get used to it and

1:46:48appreciate it and I've never used

1:46:51anything else with an argument timeline

1:46:54I I don't read facebook ok i technically

1:46:57have an account there but I literally

1:46:58have never used it to read its newsfeed

1:47:00I've never done that I don't use like

1:47:03YouTube subscriptions or things like

1:47:05that to like browse youtube I don't and

1:47:08whatever twitter is doing with their

1:47:10everything I don't I don't whatever

1:47:11maybe just drop into it but i don't see

1:47:13I've never seen it so I the only this is

1:47:16the first time I've ever actually seeing

1:47:17an auger timeline and something that

1:47:19previously didn't have fun and it's

1:47:23terrible

1:47:24like it doesn't make

1:47:25any sense like I'm seeing pictures out

1:47:27of order that they happened

1:47:29I have no idea when I've like seen

1:47:31everything I I'm seeing things that that

1:47:33that don't make sense that make me think

1:47:35that I've reached completion but i

1:47:37haven't I see right below it like well

1:47:39here's one that I saw 12 hours ago and

1:47:42right below is one from eight minutes

1:47:44ago and that you've gotta be kidding me

1:47:46for all these years I've been using

1:47:47Instagram that mentioned this before but

1:47:49what i do is i launched instagram app

1:47:51and it shows me whatever picture I was

1:47:53doing last time briefly he had to

1:47:55refresh is for right and then I i

1:47:58memorized in that brief moment memories

1:48:00with images and then scroll backwards

1:48:01like it to it kept saying I'm basically

1:48:03doing my own my own tweet marker don't

1:48:05get used to that because that's how I

1:48:06read it I admit I'm an Instagram

1:48:08completionist i read them

1:48:09chronologically and I don't want to miss

1:48:10any it's slightly confused by the fact

1:48:12that i see a lot of the cross posted to

1:48:14Twitter sometimes I think I've seen that

1:48:16one already must have gone too far but

1:48:17no that's why i gotta memorize the one

1:48:19that play however i got i know exactly

1:48:20what you're saying if they ever if they

1:48:22ever fix the absolute doesn't flash the

1:48:24last images on the screen right before

1:48:25regression the timeline would totally

1:48:26screwed my workforce by got the

1:48:28algorithmic one I don't know what I

1:48:30would do maybe just stop using Instagram

1:48:31but i'll have to try it

1:48:33honestly that's what I'm considering it

1:48:35because it's that bad like so I'm here

1:48:37read my mind now i have four hours ago

1:48:39three hours ago four hours four hours

1:48:42five hours 10 hours one day eight hours

1:48:47to days 10 hours one day like it it's

1:48:51completely shuffle 12 hours it's

1:48:53shuffled like I'll see things even like

1:48:56you know so you might be able to do it

1:48:58you know like I noticed that it puts my

1:49:00wife up top so I usually like her photos

1:49:03and I try to see them all

1:49:04it even shows her photos out of order it

1:49:07is so disruptive and their see I can't

1:49:10find any option anywhere to to flip back

1:49:12i think this is just something that

1:49:14there presumably doing to either boost

1:49:17some engagement thing that they measured

1:49:19once on facebook or they want to they

1:49:24want a new revenue stream of like

1:49:25charging the brands that you follow to

1:49:28appear higher up in your stream or both

1:49:31you know it's charging charging brands

1:49:33to make more people see the things you

1:49:34have 20 million followers but will show

1:49:36your thing to 10 of them unless you pay

1:49:38yeah it's like you earn those followers

1:49:40those people also i want to see

1:49:42everything this person post and we're

1:49:44gonna charge you for access to the

1:49:45audience that you earned yeah that's the

1:49:47facebook model and facebook instagram so

1:49:50that's probably with us for and man it

1:49:52sucks as a user I feel so bad now for

1:49:55literally the entire rest of the world

1:49:58who actually uses facebook who you know

1:49:59trying to make sense of that news feed i

1:50:01remember when they made that change the

1:50:03newsfeed a few years back remember

1:50:05everybody was all upset and I didn't

1:50:07really understand why but now I do

1:50:09because it it completely changes the

1:50:11nature of the service and it kind of

1:50:13breaks it for me like i really i really

1:50:15don't like this and i think this is

1:50:16going to reduce my usage of Instagram

1:50:19substantially I think instead maybe i'm

1:50:22wrong about this but Instagram seems not

1:50:25uniquely vulnerable but more vulnerable

1:50:27than usual to if they screw things up to

1:50:30someone saying alright well just make an

1:50:32Instagram to work like it used to like

1:50:33imagine one that actually kept track of

1:50:34where you were in the timeline and just

1:50:36a straight ahead i believe it's called

1:50:38sweet but I know but it is the social

1:50:40graph so embedded because i can't do

1:50:42that facebook says because too many

1:50:44features too many users it's too big

1:50:46instagram has a lot of users but not a

1:50:47lot of features and it's still kind of

1:50:49an island unto itself like they haven't

1:50:50really totally integrated with facebook

1:50:52at this point so if it if Instagram

1:50:56really does screw things up and then

1:50:58maybe there's a generation people like

1:50:59all they're stuck on Instagram but like

1:51:00look at snapchat comes out of nowhere

1:51:02you can grab new users with the new

1:51:03product that people find compelling and

1:51:04Instagram breaks everybody's workflows

1:51:06who they care about

1:51:08there is a market opportunity for

1:51:10someone to do a very straightforward iOS

1:51:13app that shows you the pictures your

1:51:14friends took in order and has a simple

1:51:16asymmetrical following process like

1:51:19Twitter and has likes and comments like

1:51:21it's not technologically unfeasible all

1:51:25this requires facebook to anger enough

1:51:27people to make a viable market for some

1:51:28other small competitor even if it's just

1:51:30like a company is never going to be his

1:51:31biggest facebook is never gonna are

1:51:33never too big as Instagram never going

1:51:35to usurp Instagram but merely become an

1:51:37alternative is you consider it a

1:51:39successful app.net for Instagram hell

1:51:42dammit you feel great away from me i was

1:51:44so excited to make that joke but

1:51:46nevermind joke i mean it's a thing that

1:51:48could possibly happen like it's not

1:51:50inconceivable that can be a thing

1:51:52depending on how badly in serum screws

1:51:54it up and how many people's work for

1:51:55actually doesn't drop for all we know I

1:51:56guess people chattering if you follow

1:51:58tons of people on algorithmic timeline

1:52:00is indistinguishable from a non out

1:52:01where that one because you never keep

1:52:02track of anything anyway you just launch

1:52:03the app and you scroll until you're

1:52:05satisfied or something i do people

1:52:06scroll backwards like launch the app

1:52:08that gives it to the top of the timeline

1:52:09and they scroll the other way i do

1:52:11anything until they get until they see

1:52:12until I see a picture that they

1:52:14recognize already then they stop

1:52:16yep that help people use it that's the

1:52:18only way you really could use it before

1:52:19alright here's the way I was using it

1:52:21anyway Casey was using it

1:52:23yeah memorize the picture Scroll scroll

1:52:25Scroll scroll a little game Scroll

1:52:26scroll found it now go through them all

1:52:28see I misunderstood i actually do what

1:52:30you just described by misunderstood your

1:52:32region I and when it loads i see the

1:52:34picture like it i see the picture of

1:52:35like I don't know like a Mike Maddux

1:52:38took pictures of cows in a field and at

1:52:39that blinks on screen for a second and

1:52:41then it loads 50 other pictures that i

1:52:42scroll down to find the cow picture and

1:52:44then I see the cal picture and then move

1:52:46down but then you're spoiling it

1:52:48yeah but now I know passing really fast

1:52:50all come on what you have to do is you

1:52:52have to pay an assistant five dollars a

1:52:53month to scroll for you haha SI deve

1:52:57take me to take hey we do the picture

1:52:59that I last saw which again when i first

1:53:02played with instagram like me don't

1:53:04understand how that works is it broken

1:53:05to people how to regular people use

1:53:08Instagram because every time i wanted i

1:53:09wanted to show me the last picture I saw

1:53:10the same overtime logical for twitter

1:53:12app on it showed me last week a red

1:53:14frustrating i think the way regular

1:53:16people do it if they care enough at all

1:53:18is is what you just described what I do

1:53:21and it sounds like Marco does which is

1:53:22ok memorize what I just saw and then

1:53:24start at the top in canada we did it

1:53:27right

1:53:28exactly i'm too old to keep that an inch

1:53:30short term memory for that long I have a

1:53:32couple of seconds before it leaves my

1:53:33head entirely Scroll scroll to go

1:53:34through a cow stop good

1:53:36well the problem is I with the cross

1:53:39post also screwed me up too because on

1:53:41it then I convince myself that the 1i

1:53:43just saw like that that I'd seen on

1:53:45Twitter previously was the one that

1:53:47flash when i open the app and sometimes

1:53:48that's not right that's why I got you

1:53:50gotta

1:53:51yeah try my technique it's a it's you

1:53:53only have to remember to a very short

1:53:54period of time and you can really forget

1:53:55it enjoy it while you can

1:53:57don't close the instagram app that

1:53:59because you're relaunch it if it get

1:54:01purged out of memory then you'll be back

1:54:02to the top again I never noticed that

1:54:05but now that you say that you're

1:54:06absolutely right i never thought about

1:54:08it that way that's why I'm all like

1:54:09three people on Instagram that I'm able

1:54:11to maintain this workflow just giving my

1:54:16regular timeline back for God's sake i'm

1:54:18gonna get so many emails we definitely

1:54:21yeah i think that you will find you

1:54:23there are some kin of the subway defend

1:54:26are somewhat someone's already wrote

1:54:27just me of course saying that I'm not

1:54:30crazy and that it's okay to like things

1:54:33that other people don't like they were

1:54:34too scared to see them at all those huh

1:54:36apparently let somebody as well

1:54:38somebody's file

1:54:39oh yeah subways the words oh yeah but

1:54:41you know sbarro pizza that's so much

1:54:42better

1:54:43some arbys is better than subway yes

1:54:45you're correct

1:54:46mmm is it I idea i don't think its

1:54:49equivalent it is absolutely one that is

1:54:52better it is better it is a better food

1:54:54product on a good food product but it's

1:54:56better i think there is something i

1:54:58could order at subway that I would

1:54:59rather have then anything is a bar would

1:55:02serve now because here's the thing was

1:55:04so far they have dough sauce cheese they

1:55:07assemble them and make them hot that was

1:55:09not good sauce is not good that she's

1:55:10not good how we set any different than

1:55:12subway subway has something that you

1:55:15think is bread but is actually some kind

1:55:17of mold that grows into a bread shaped

1:55:19like this little mutant like read the

1:55:21fetuses that there have been some

1:55:23conservatives and chemicals on them

1:55:25right and the cold cuts are I don't know

1:55:27what they are but like they're just that

1:55:30I have a frozen are they are they like

1:55:33they're just they're not they don't look

1:55:34like our tastes like what cold cuts are

1:55:35supposed to be like we know what coach

1:55:37was supposed to be you go to the store

1:55:38you slice them you get that like these

1:55:40these sort of I don't know what's wrong

1:55:42with them they just they just look and

1:55:44taste like preservatives and coming this

1:55:45little units that they just they just

1:55:47there's not religious not right but what

1:55:49do you what do you think is the

1:55:50ingredient quality at sbarro's right

1:55:53well but as a that's what I'm saying I

1:55:54feel like their cheese is more like real

1:55:56just like there's nothing to go wrong

1:55:57like this little quote there's no

1:55:59coolant like salami like salami the

1:56:01difficult product to get right and

1:56:02Sbarro's

1:56:03no tomorrow the subway salami is I don't

1:56:05know what the hell it is like same thing

1:56:07with the cheese simply just the little

1:56:09preassembled like here's the ingredients

1:56:11for this type of sandwich slapped on

1:56:13their it like it and get the bread and

1:56:16the cold was such a big part of it then

1:56:18you say okay well maybe the tomatoes and

1:56:19a lot of the fine maybe maybe the

1:56:21tomatoes and legs are fine equivalent of

1:56:22whatever the sbarros using but tomorrow

1:56:24has no equivalent even the pepperoni I

1:56:27feel like pepperonis the type of product

1:56:28where you're not you know there is no

1:56:31sort of gold standard for pepperonis

1:56:33lots of variability and it's all kind of

1:56:35crappy and one way or the other but just

1:56:37you know that sauce dough and cheese

1:56:39I feel like is a higher quality is like

1:56:40these are honest products not good

1:56:42tasting product is tomorrow but they're

1:56:43honestly there whereas at subway they're

1:56:46taking a sandwich and screwing up the

1:56:48bread and the cold cut parts of it and

1:56:49then I'm like I'm out that's it what it

1:56:51was left i'm not going to go there for

1:56:53the tomatoes and the lettuce it is just

1:56:55is incredibly vile this is cognitive

1:56:57dissonance what about the cheese

1:56:58triangles on the GL that she's the

1:57:00tessellation minutes yeah that that's

1:57:02just a silly problem assembly problem

1:57:04but elbow cheese shouldn't really be

1:57:05triangle-shaped really I mean it should

1:57:08be squares or circles right we know who

1:57:10has triangle cheese it's just like why

1:57:12they even bothering to cutting that I

1:57:13think it starts out of the square

1:57:15I know and they cut into triangles why

1:57:16so they can screw up the tessellation

1:57:17anger people and it's making sense

1:57:20I don't understand II you're just waving

1:57:23your hands in the air and said like you

1:57:24just don't care and saying oh sbarros

1:57:26great ingredients but subway they can't

1:57:29be great and not a great green that is

1:57:31there more straightforward and honest

1:57:32like no one's going to say that pizza

1:57:34dough isn't pizza dough worries i think

1:57:36they're ready since that whatever it is

1:57:38it's like eating how you don't get it

1:57:39fresh every yummy bacon fresh from what

1:57:42from what from terrible like mushroom

1:57:45mold spore bread filled with Sbarro

1:57:47doesn't get shipped the same bread

1:57:50probably from the same damn bigger ego

1:57:52is no it's not it's it pizza dough is

1:57:54more straightforward to like like here's

1:57:56the problem is it there are so many good

1:57:58places where you can get sample i can

1:57:59maybe have to be from New York

1:58:00understand anything you want a sandwich

1:58:01with cold cuts on it it's not a high bar

1:58:03there's a billion delis in new york

1:58:06state that can give you a sandwich with

1:58:08cold cuts on that is so much better than

1:58:10subway that you shouldn't just never

1:58:12pretend that store doesn't even exist

1:58:14anymore like you can go to whole foods

1:58:16and get

1:58:17better sandwich like you can go to any

1:58:19supermarket and have them assemble you a

1:58:21sandwich with cold cuts on it that's

1:58:22better than someone you can go to panera

1:58:23also way better than that like I can't

1:58:25think of anything worse than subway it

1:58:26how can you

1:58:27is there any place that will sell you a

1:58:28worse sandwich from subway this is my

1:58:30question

1:58:30I can't think of one like a bubble

1:58:32letter board here for it when they're

1:58:34wrapped in saran wrap those sandwiches

1:58:35are better than subway

1:58:37that's what i'm getting at like at least

1:58:38have real bread on even actually even

1:58:40like when arbys added sandwiches to

1:58:42their menu like a while back

1:58:44they're way better than subway

1:58:45sandwiches and that's from arbys yes I'm

1:58:47saying like it and then again those are

1:58:49probably little hamburger buns like they

1:58:51actually actually got like bread and

1:58:53like they started stocking all I'd like

1:58:54bread and cold cuts and stuff and they

1:58:56started making that way is the subway is

1:58:58I feel like the bottom rung of any chain

1:59:01food in in the world like it's probably

1:59:04in the world I can't think of anything

1:59:05worse who you talk to brian just pointed

1:59:07out what is worse at which I assume he

1:59:09said he said the plastic triangle

1:59:11sandwiches i assume he's talking about

1:59:12the ones you getting gas stations that's

1:59:13what i was saying I was saying at the

1:59:14air plastic triangle sandwiches at the

1:59:16airport are better than subway they'd

1:59:18probably give you know you know in our

1:59:20job because they have made with real

1:59:22bread there and you know your weight are

1:59:25you sure no ingredients are gonna be

1:59:26gross but most of the grossest because

1:59:28they've been there for a long time which

1:59:30is also why your food poisoning which is

1:59:31why you shouldn't eat them but based on

1:59:33like you know what what are they made up

1:59:36their made of bread there and the

1:59:38ingredients in them they're made of

1:59:39pathogens that sometimes the airport

1:59:41sandwiches are bad because they're made

1:59:43with ingredients don't have enough

1:59:44preservatives and everybody just sit

1:59:45there and they get all gross like

1:59:46it'sit's like any airplane food like

1:59:48they try to make it out of good

1:59:49ingredients but if you know you have

1:59:51this precooked chicken and tomatoes and

1:59:53you let them sit there and you're like

1:59:54this or even better with preservatives

1:59:55because this is just SAT there too long

1:59:57gone through too many pressure changes

1:59:58and now it's just a vile rubber

1:59:58and now it's just a vile rubber

2:00:00the tasteless mess you know what's

2:00:02infuriating about doing the show with

2:00:03you John is that you are just completely

2:00:07and utterly wrong completely wrong

2:00:09I could concede that subway is not great

2:00:12food i'm not arguing that your name or a

2:00:14sandwich name or Sam hold on hold on

2:00:15hold on this the airport sandwiches are

2:00:17unequivocally worse but the problem is

2:00:20because everyone on the internet things

2:00:22you can never say anything that's wrong

2:00:24ever

2:00:24now we're gonna get a thousand emails

2:00:26with people saying oh jon is completely

2:00:28round in terms of trying to help your

2:00:30subway really is the bottom

2:00:32ok ok let's again let's let's concede

2:00:34for the sake of discussion at subway is

2:00:36the worst let's just assume even though

2:00:38it's not let's assume it is i don't

2:00:40understand why you think sbarro is any

2:00:43better or different and pizza dough is

2:00:46the same kind of dough that shift from

2:00:48some factory when West bumble screw into

2:00:50their into the local sbarro that the

2:00:53subway dough is and I in every day at

2:00:56subway they cook the dough you think

2:00:58they make the friggin dough at the

2:01:00sbarro rip the crust officer borrow

2:01:02thing that that crust has more bread

2:01:05like qualities than anybody ever to come

2:01:06out of subway

2:01:07I don't know quite crispy reference

2:01:10because it cooked at high temperature it

2:01:12is more chewy and gluttony it is much

2:01:15more like bread not particularly good

2:01:17tasting bread but much more like bread

2:01:19then that stuff and so when I are going

2:01:21to opposite sbarros and subways like

2:01:25again I'm not trying to say it's subways

2:01:27is the definition of good food i'm not

2:01:28saying that but once i just i cannot

2:01:30keep reconcile my head that you think

2:01:34that Sbarro is leaps and bounds better

2:01:36than subway because they are to my eyes

2:01:38of effectively the same quality i like

2:01:41both better with your leaps and bounds

2:01:42that's better but it's better like and I

2:01:45wanted it because degree of difficulty

2:01:46it's got so few ingredients and none of

2:01:48them are weird mutant versions of legit

2:01:51great pizza has so many more ingredients

2:01:54you're saying it's easier to make good p

2:01:56to the good sandwich right easier to

2:01:58make pizza with actual honest

2:01:59ingredients like the open holes are a

2:02:02serious problem like any kind of cold

2:02:05cuts are like it it's very difficult to

2:02:07do there's a high degree of difficulty

2:02:09there it's not simple like oh sauce

2:02:11cheese and bread may

2:02:12really hard and oven cold cuts are a

2:02:15process product that is complicated to

2:02:17make that that is a lot of variety what

2:02:19the the things that are similar between

2:02:20roast beef and turkey and salami like

2:02:23there's a huge range of expertise that

2:02:24you need to make any of those that

2:02:26exactly but they're not making them in

2:02:28each location they're buying that night

2:02:30I know but there but they're buying them

2:02:31from is like the lowest bidder and

2:02:33they're so incredibly vile that they are

2:02:35should not even be called salami or even

2:02:37their hammer the turkey is everything is

2:02:39just terrible

2:02:40again something like Canaries with

2:02:42similar challenges their italian combo

2:02:44panera is not a good italian sandwich

2:02:46the coat are not good and yet still way

2:02:48better than the ones that it had subway

2:02:51everything you're saying about subway

2:02:52how does that not apply to sbarro thank

2:02:54you because I guess that cheese

2:02:56mozzarella cheese is very it's hard to

2:02:58screw up it's a very simple cheese

2:03:00doesn't need to be aged it's inexpensive

2:03:01and most of it tastes like morals like

2:03:04mozzarella cheese it's not a complicated

2:03:06product like salami or slicing ham or

2:03:08roast beef and like this module is very

2:03:10straightforward so is the dough is very

2:03:11straightforward it's not a complicated

2:03:13though it's not a sourdough is not some

2:03:15special thing you do it's like perhaps

2:03:16one of the most straightforward those

2:03:17and tomatoes also very easy tomatoes can

2:03:20very well

2:03:21whoa whoa whoa slow down not if how long

2:03:24do you spend making sauce when you make

2:03:27your own source it's pasta sauces not

2:03:29pizza sauce Casey please don't tell me

2:03:30you're putting pizza sauce on your on

2:03:32your costs or vice versa

2:03:33it's the same thing with a regular it

2:03:35right i mean it's really not that but

2:03:36it's like those are sturdy your

2:03:38ingredients that are harder to screw up

2:03:39that have a lower degree of difficulty

2:03:41to make something that qualifies as the

2:03:43food obviously it's not good but it's it

2:03:45is honest straightforward and it is the

2:03:48food whereas cold cuts and bread are I

2:03:50don't think Brad is that difficult some

2:03:52simple someway somehow manages to screw

2:03:53it up but coconuts definitely are

2:03:55difficult and I would just rather not

2:03:58have cold cuts and have coconuts that

2:03:59band and not have bread rather than

2:04:02bread that but i just-i can't--

2:04:03reconcile you saying that it's harder to

2:04:05screw up a cold-cut like a slice of ham

2:04:08harder to make yes yes how can you screw

2:04:12up a slice of an animal easier than you

2:04:15can screw up a complicated multi

2:04:17particles not it's not just a slice of

2:04:18an animal like that's the whole thing

2:04:20you have to it you know they put tons of

2:04:22preservatives and

2:04:23open everything on those things to try

2:04:24to make them be shelf-stable for longer

2:04:26periods of time they're generally pretty

2:04:28perishable and you kind of did you do it

2:04:29right have to chip the big giant hug

2:04:31that you slice on demand but there's no

2:04:32way in hell somebody's gonna do that I

2:04:34just I can't reconcile this like I'm

2:04:36I've left behind while you have you not

2:04:38had go cold cuts and maybe this is the

2:04:39problem do not know what they're

2:04:41supposed to taste like

2:04:42absolutely I i if i could if i could

2:04:45live off of Boar's Head white American

2:04:47cheese I would and this is where you

2:04:49start bitching at me about how american

2:04:51cheese and cheese but the handle

2:04:52everything white american jesus would

2:04:54you go for Jesus actually one of the

2:04:56easier ones because again cheese is

2:04:57inherently has a little more shelf

2:05:00stable than something I mean salami is

2:05:02pretty good but like something like

2:05:03sliced turkey or roast beef that's

2:05:06that's got a pretty low shelf life

2:05:08compared to cheese right

2:05:10Jesus is going to be much more sturdy to

2:05:12a fast food type of environment coconuts

2:05:14are hard

2:05:15not much around always trying to do mass

2:05:17market with with cold cuts and they are

2:05:19forced to to make this unholy alliance

2:05:22with chemicals preservatives and craft

2:05:24products that it isn't it also true of

2:05:26like every fast-food place that has like

2:05:28burgers and stuff that's all that it's

2:05:30all the same challenges yeah and burgers

2:05:31like the burgers has had the advantages

2:05:34that ground beef frozen ground beef

2:05:37you know reheated like there's a lot of

2:05:38fat that gets you buy and those things

2:05:40where it's just like yes it's terrible

2:05:41to Grady meet its frozen but there's a

2:05:44lot of fat involved and there's actually

2:05:46not that much meat in the grand scheme

2:05:47of things slightly a bunch of stuff on

2:05:49and basically to say it's like salty

2:05:50squishy fat up more difficult to hide

2:05:53bad salami because that's la made it so

2:05:56me has a very distinctive taste it's a

2:05:57strong taste and if it's bad it's it's

2:06:00bad but you know but it's the same as

2:06:01the same thing with burgers to some

2:06:03degree and that is why you can tell the

2:06:05difference between shake shack and

2:06:07burger that came to the store frozen

2:06:09right like it's not that big returns but

2:06:11you can tell you're so wrong John

2:06:13alright so we also jared is a really bad

2:06:16person so you should well there is that

2:06:17so you basically saying that mcdonalds

2:06:19is better than subway because it's

2:06:21burgers better how the Rangers

2:06:23mcalister's kind of its own thing i

2:06:24would eat mcdonalds before I eat subway

2:06:26i would suddenly performing dollars only

2:06:28for health reasons because I feel like

2:06:30McDonald's is it has fewer healthy

2:06:32choices whereas even subway will taste

2:06:34really bad it's gonna have

2:06:35less saturated fat and hopefully less

2:06:37calories depending on the mcdonalds is

2:06:39also so incredibly strictly like manage

2:06:43and regulated and down two down to so

2:06:44many sciences and also they probably do

2:06:47more throughput customer wise so I i

2:06:50think the risk more but then sometimes I

2:06:52think you're pretty good system

2:06:53I i find somebody to be about as

2:06:55consistent as as a mcdonald I don't go

2:06:57to mcdonalds at all well but like from

2:06:59from like a pure like you know fear of

2:07:01foodborne illnesses maybe perspective i

2:07:04think i think that was probably a safer

2:07:05bet and things are hotter they're

2:07:07especially good odds I I don't I i can

2:07:10tell you that i have eaten subway much

2:07:11more recently than I being McDonald's

2:07:13but it's mostly it's not for taste

2:07:15regions because someone else wants

2:07:16subway

2:07:17someone must remain nameless and I

2:07:20believe it when I want burgers we go to

2:07:23five guys r shake shack these days or in

2:07:25and out in an hour in California all

2:07:28donated five guys five guys eat you know

2:07:31I bet it's delicious a dynamic dollar

2:07:33fat it is beautiful i know but it tastes

2:07:36better than mcdonalds I have to agree

2:07:37with Casey I i haven't had mcdonalds and

2:07:40i think a few years and but i I've had

2:07:44five guys recently and I don't get the

2:07:46appeal

2:07:47honestly I really don't get the villa

2:07:48five guys like I it's it's not bad but

2:07:51it's just it's just like greasy fast

2:07:52food burger there's nothing special

2:07:54about I I don't think it's any better

2:07:55than like a wendy's or an arby's oh no

2:07:58it's way better than one is arbys maybe

2:07:59I think it was it's a higher class of

2:08:01food than those in those places that is

2:08:04it

2:08:05it that way I described five guys it's

2:08:09more like a burger that you would make

2:08:10yourself in your house with ingredients

2:08:11that you bought yourself an expert chef

2:08:14is not gonna be a great burger but it

2:08:16definitely does not taste like

2:08:17McDonald's Burger King or even in and

2:08:19out where you totally tell like that's a

2:08:20fast-food burger five guys taste more

2:08:22like a mediocre regular burger if I have

2:08:24a meeting I had five guys and probably

2:08:27as long as Marcos had mcdonalds but if I

2:08:2925 guys i think they call it a mini

2:08:32bacon cheeseburger whatever the smallest

2:08:34bacon cheeseburger don't don't don't get

2:08:35bacon at five guys that's my tip don't

2:08:37get bacon you may think you wanted but

2:08:39don't get it the taste better without

2:08:40the bacon has been hiding about that i

2:08:42have not gotten their bacon before and I

2:08:44still think it's bad it will hold on

2:08:46but the point I'm trying to get to

2:08:47though is if I had a mini bacon

2:08:49cheeseburger whether or not baking is a

2:08:51good call five guys invited many bacon

2:08:53cheeseburger and some of their fries

2:08:55an hour later I feel like a beach

2:08:57freaking whale I can eat a equivalently

2:09:01sized burger at McDonalds or wendys or

2:09:03what have you and still be a functional

2:09:06human being an hour later

2:09:07whereas five guys not so much that maybe

2:09:10a digestive issue you have I don't know

2:09:12i don't i don't typically have to just

2:09:14call me feel better in and out i think

2:09:16that it is very good i think that if I'm

2:09:19really honest it is overrated by east

2:09:23coasters because we don't get it ever so

2:09:25it's a very good burger but I don't

2:09:27think it's that much Bert better than

2:09:28any other equivalent chain i would lump

2:09:31in and out as in the same family as

2:09:33McDonald's Burger King but better than

2:09:34both of them but I would not put in

2:09:36something that's favorite a curry shake

2:09:38shack or even five guys because it's

2:09:40more of a fast-food style burger like

2:09:42everything about the bun the way the

2:09:43burgers repaired everything about it is

2:09:45a fast-food style burger and it is a

2:09:46higher-quality fast food style burger

2:09:48but it is not the non fast food style

2:09:52burgers includes five guys and Shake

2:09:53Shack because it's a different style i

2:09:54get it you know everything about the

2:09:56size the proportion of me to the bond

2:09:58what's the bond has made that of how the

2:10:00burgers repaired with the burgers ever

2:10:01been frozen before whole nine yards to

2:10:04me I I honestly object to lumping five

2:10:07guys and Shake Shack together i think

2:10:09five guys is way closer to the big fast

2:10:13food chains than it is to shake shack

2:10:14it's closer to wendys because Wendy's

2:10:17has a style burger that

2:10:18little bit different than putting

2:10:19thousands burger king in and out if you

2:10:20like so like as you going to continue

2:10:22with you go to wendys then go to five

2:10:24guys and I agree with kind of separating

2:10:26it from shake shack has five as

2:10:27obviously not as good as that or not as

2:10:29weird as different checks and like a

2:10:31potato bun and everything it's got all

2:10:32sorts of weird stuff going on that is

2:10:33not involved in in the five guys burger

2:10:36but five guys is definitely more

2:10:38straightforward i think a lot of this is

2:10:39colored by the fries which are all over

2:10:41the freakin map among all these ones and

2:10:42if you had to categorize them just by

2:10:44the fries I don't know what you do

2:10:45because the fried variability I found to

2:10:48be huge and in yea even individual

2:10:51locations aware and McDonald's every

2:10:54place like I mean it just locations like

2:10:56this shake shack has good fries with

2:10:58that shake his bad for us has that even

2:10:59make sense like no consistency

2:11:01I mean there's more consistency as you

2:11:02get to mcdonalds and burger king but I

2:11:03was going to say ok now and I was also

2:11:06not impressed with five guys fries to be

2:11:07honest I mean get some some people love

2:11:10them some people don't know I got to the

2:11:11same five guys different times sometimes

2:11:13the fries are good sometimes not the

2:11:14same exact location

2:11:16no consistency now really the if you're

2:11:18talking about french fries it's

2:11:19chick-fil-a waffle fries or get out

2:11:21I don't say anything you have the

2:11:23footwall thighs aside I don't think you

2:11:24can put them into the fryer we're

2:11:26talking about step that's basically

2:11:27hashbrowns that Paul comma but yeah well

2:11:30prize is a different thing they're good

2:11:32i'm not saying Walter is great but you

2:11:34can't break can't bring a waffle fry to

2:11:36a regular fry fight that's not what its

2:11:39gonna be toe you have the weirdest rules

2:11:43I mean like home fries are also kind of

2:11:45potatoes yeah exactly why not been clear

2:11:48from verizon hashbrowns like why not put

2:11:50the waffle house in their hashbrowns

2:11:51oh my god it's not a hash brownie venir

2:11:54a hashbrown yeah well so crazy right now

2:11:57I just want steak and shake tried making

2:11:59a steak and shake frisco melt last week

2:12:01it was it i actually didn't get that far

2:12:04off it the hardest part about it that I

2:12:06didn't achieve properly is this is at

2:12:08stake and shake frisco mounts have two

2:12:10very thin burgers and I don't know how

2:12:13you make a burger that thin

2:12:14hey I tried and it wasn't even close it

2:12:17falls apart now I've never been to steak

2:12:19and shake them either her target good

2:12:21things about it i would imagine you

2:12:23probably have to freeze the patties to

2:12:25them to make them hold together

2:12:27yeah now all thats that's the secret to

2:12:29those earth

2:12:30once they come they come frozen ice

2:12:32hockey box and you put them on the grill

2:12:33and they cook really fast because fast

2:12:34food to cook things really fast okay if

2:12:37it takes you don't really care

2:12:38that's like to call it minutes take

2:12:40their steak that with the holes pounded

2:12:42and several cook faster

2:12:44Wow speaking of i had white castle when

2:12:47i was at bachelor party in Vegas few

2:12:49weeks back

2:12:49so that's the bottom of the wrong room

2:12:51of hamburger speaking of it was uh it

2:12:54was different but I was fairly

2:12:55inebriated so it hit the spot at the

2:12:58time drunk vegas white castle know this

2:13:02sounds happen this sounds like a really

2:13:04bad idea

2:13:05the same way the same reason people find

2:13:07themselves a taco bell so were you drunk

2:13:09oh yeah yeah I don't talk about talk

2:13:11about great i'm not kidding either i

2:13:13love talking about again bottom bottom

2:13:14rock bottom of the ladder of for Mexico

2:13:18train talk about we all agree that's

2:13:20probably fair

2:13:20yeah i think generally speaking the

2:13:22later you're fast food places open the

2:13:25worst from the words of food and I think

2:13:27that's fair to but I love me some talk

2:13:28about actually they're up there morning

2:13:30crunchwrap the breakfast contract very

2:13:32good

2:13:32believe it or not Wow which has brown in

2:13:35it as it turns out of course that is why

2:13:37wouldn't it is undecided i live at where

2:13:40they're adding the making it ridiculous

2:13:42that menu item for Taco Bell put in tote

2:13:45bag that was also remember that ad

2:13:47nope nope you look at pic i like this up

2:13:51Pete Jackson on Twitter Casey has never

2:13:55had a good sub couldn't be more obvious

2:13:56that was 13 minutes ago four minutes ago

2:14:00ok listen to little further revised

2:14:01lusus hold on revised theses Casey has

2:14:04never had a good meal of any kind i

2:14:07don't want to say it but some people

2:14:10think that right who's that who's that

2:14:13who's the chain food hound it's not UK

2:14:16see that someone else is better is it

2:14:17Lex who's really into like going to you

2:14:20know like Applebee's and TGI fridays

2:14:22i'll see it curiously enough i don't

2:14:25particularly care for those like a leech

2:14:26nobody does the terrible but it is

2:14:28somebody in our circle like is an

2:14:29aficionado

2:14:30them like yeah or or it you don't talk

2:14:33about like that again the bottom rung of

2:14:35the chain chain restaurant like

2:14:37mid-priced chain restaurant for like

2:14:40four full table service

2:14:42yeah everything is really bad for you

2:14:44yeah and they have weird things weird

2:14:47meals that appeal it's kind of like

2:14:48before Guy Fieri came and showed

2:14:50everybody the true meaning of you know

2:14:52with his terrible restaurants that I

2:14:54mean obviously I there's a lot like a

2:14:56lot of those big chain restaurant I've

2:14:58ever been to

2:14:59because like like it in the times in my

2:15:01life that I lived in places that had

2:15:03them I couldn't afford to go there was

2:15:05that one that was like with a bee or

2:15:06something

2:15:07bennigans Bennigan's there you go I mean

2:15:10you should go to ponderosa sometimes for

2:15:11like special occasions like like growing

2:15:13up like I go like once a year to

2:15:15ponderosa i would put into several

2:15:17categories out back but i would put a

2:15:18separate karaoke from TGI Fridays

2:15:20applebees Bennigan's as many install

2:15:22around so cmf I went to college in

2:15:25pennsylvania that is true with the

2:15:26college however in the middle of nowhere

2:15:28Pennsylvania where most of

2:15:30Pennsylvania's the middle of nowhere

2:15:31yeah we're basically it didn't I went to

2:15:34college in meadville Pennsylvania where

2:15:37the only restaurant in town there was a

2:15:40ponderosa I think we never went there

2:15:43the only restaurant anybody ever go to

2:15:44was just a perkins and so I went to

2:15:47perkins a lot before that in ohio into

2:15:49denny's a lot which is basically the

2:15:50same restaurant all down

2:15:52awesome at it's something it's better

2:15:55than waffle house so days is what then

2:15:57is awesome place so good I i would

2:16:00disagree strongly on that I'm but best

2:16:04pancakes in the world i hop time I'm

2:16:08that was in case it's not clear that was

2:16:11an attempt to ridicule Casey's very

2:16:14low-level taste i love and shot ologist

2:16:18in the chat saying Danny's is a place

2:16:20you wind up what is perfect that is

2:16:23welcome

2:16:24well I get it open very late like ihop

2:16:26open also but then again that's why I

2:16:28went to perkins in colleges within 24

2:16:30hours that so that interesting story of

2:16:32TIFF and I our first date was we drove

2:16:3540 minutes to erie pennsylvania the

2:16:38nearest big town we drove 40 minutes to

2:16:41get there to go to the olive garden

2:16:43oh hell yeah huh it's amazing it's

2:16:46amazing this relationship lasted that

2:16:48was our nice restaurant for our first

2:16:50date again i would say but bottom of the

2:16:53bottom of the of the ladder for italian

2:16:56restaurants we all degrees name a worse

2:16:58Italian food restaurants in the garden

2:17:00it's impossible Sbarro's obviously no

2:17:02tomorrow's had a better time for me all

2:17:05garden hands down no no true that is not

2:17:08true not all through the olive garden

2:17:10breadsticks are the only other bread

2:17:12item that i can think of it as similar

2:17:13to the subject