The Accidental Tech Podcast

168: Coffee Stops Working

 

  talk about tebow next week sorry John [TS]

  we're never talking with Eva so we're in [TS]

  the midst of talking about what to do [TS]

  about shirts for this year we've been [TS]

  talking about it the three of us for a [TS]

  couple of weeks now thing and i really [TS]

  like it and i really like it and we [TS]

  haven't really come up with any [TS]

  brilliant ideas in terms of design we [TS]

  don't want to just kind of phone it in [TS]

  and do regurgitation of a prior design [TS]

  but you know we if their listeners that [TS]

  would like shirts we want to fulfill [TS]

  that need [TS]

  so where were in the midst of a debate [TS]

  over what to do when we were currently [TS]

  leaning towards I think not doing shirts [TS]

  this year in part because teespring [TS]

  isn't going to have them done and [TS]

  delivered before wdc which is typically [TS]

  when we try to get this thing done by so [TS]

  we're not sure what to do [TS]

  yeah so because basically letting you [TS]

  know WBC is is a nice target date [TS]

  because a lot of fans are there and [TS]

  people like buying shirts and showing [TS]

  off their t-shirts there but the reality [TS]

  is that the vast majority of purchasers [TS]

  of the shirt probably aren't going to pc [TS]

  Edward we're talking like you do people [TS]

  have t-shirt fatigue or people tired of [TS]

  teachers people have too many t-shirts [TS]

  is there anything else we could sell [TS]

  they be a hoodie maybe like mugs or [TS]

  other stuff that's not shirts polo [TS]

  shirts and so and and you know my [TS]

  position is very strong that like I [TS]

  think we should have an original design [TS]

  every time we do these things and and [TS]

  you know we because we don't want to [TS]

  like you know I learned forever ago from [TS]

  howard stern actually I learned a lot [TS]

  from he had a thing he was he was kind [TS]

  of criticizing somebody else if it's [TS]

  nothing I didn't rush limbaugh school [TS]

  some other like talk show host for like [TS]

  constantly nickel-and-diming the [TS]

  audience for just selling them all sorts [TS]

  of garbage with with his name on it or [TS]

  something like that and and howard said [TS]

  like his his position as always to [TS]

  basically asked the audience for money [TS]

  as infrequently as possible to not so [TS]

  that's why you can't get like howard [TS]

  stern's face on a bumper sticker like [TS]

  you can't there's there's pretty much no [TS]

  official merchandise for the shows it's [TS]

  very little if any i can I never even [TS]

  seen any and he said when he moved to [TS]

  serious that was like a big ask that was [TS]

  like are you moving from free [TS]

  Radio to a paid services like a madman [TS]

  ask the audience now for the pretty big [TS]

  ask [TS]

  come to me just to this paid service and [TS]

  he said he was already asked them for [TS]

  that then he really didn't want to ask [TS]

  them for more money like anything else [TS]

  he really wanted to kind of like [TS]

  conserve the times he asked the audience [TS]

  for money you know as respect for the [TS]

  audience and so that when he does ask it [TS]

  matters and so I i I've kind of [TS]

  internalize that and a lot of stuff I do [TS]

  and that's why I feel like with the show [TS]

  I feel like for us to ask the listeners [TS]

  hey go buy this thing I want to make [TS]

  sure it's it's good i want and i don't [TS]

  want to ask that question too often and [TS]

  so that's why I like for me it's not [TS]

  enough to just say let's just do you [TS]

  know that the original shirt with the [TS]

  logo wanted with Swift on the back for [TS]

  instance which one of the ideas we had [TS]

  but should we should be fine because the [TS]

  original version had just seeking the [TS]

  back wheel but Swift in the back and it [TS]

  would feel like folding it in and we [TS]

  don't want to do that to you to the [TS]

  audience because if we're going to ask [TS]

  you to buy something we want to make [TS]

  sure it's it's like good and and that we [TS]

  are putting a lot of effort into our [TS]

  site as well [TS]

  yeah so we're in summary were not sure [TS]

  what to do and and when we don't know [TS]

  don't know what to do with probably spun [TS]

  wait until somebody has a clever idea i [TS]

  do love that lava like in the chat [TS]

  suggested making ATP watchstrap i do [TS]

  think that is brilliant that is [TS]

  fantastic for the Apple watches the the [TS]

  two of us are wearing LOL it could [TS]

  become multiple multiple versions my [TS]

  could have a spring bar so you can put [TS]

  any watch and John's could just be like [TS]

  something that you hang on the wall or [TS]

  something i can come with the arm hair [TS]

  already torn out of your arm and attach [TS]

  it to the strap [TS]

  well John we could get like we can get [TS]

  like custom dining flexes printed I [TS]

  don't know what that is I have no idea [TS]

  what that is weird I about it's a there [TS]

  the RSI the little like gyroscopes [TS]

  pinball things that people use for our [TS]

  so that's actually really good idea for [TS]

  a while to get used to this [TS]

  alright alright speaking of useless [TS]

  information i have a very short story [TS]

  that i'd like to share [TS]

  I apparently have a know what's the term [TS]

  for this somebody that has my exact same [TS]

  name but isn't me [TS]

  doppelganger between or doppelganger by [TS]

  yeah but it doesn't he doesn't look like [TS]

  me when I was trying to get myself onto [TS]

  the right time table when I was in [TS]

  california on vacation as everyone [TS]

  always is when they're in California I [TS]

  probably [TS]

  is doing vandy search for god knows what [TS]

  and I somehow came up with the link i [TS]

  just put in the chat that says casey [TS]

  list a senior computer engineering major [TS]

  at the University of New Hampshire [TS]

  presented his research on quote IOT [TS]

  security basic implementation of the [TS]

  hash function Blake and I was completely [TS]

  stupefied by this because I've seen [TS]

  plenty of Casey's not even seen a [TS]

  handful of Lissa's but to see the [TS]

  combination of kc list was startling and [TS]

  then furthermore I found another page [TS]

  this is how bored in desperate i was [TS]

  during my bout of insomnia i found [TS]

  another page that had some mention of a [TS]

  of a guy Cory lists cor ey who [TS]

  supposedly looks like justin timberlake [TS]

  even though he really doesn't who has a [TS]

  twin Casey listen this is doubly [TS]

  interesting because my dad's name is [TS]

  cory it's spelled differently but yeah [TS]

  very weird and that's totally weirded me [TS]

  out and I wanted to share with the group [TS]

  and we can cut this from the show you [TS]

  know it would be amazing i'm not [TS]

  Christmas show because i think it would [TS]

  be amazing if it became like a thing [TS]

  that people did that whenever they [TS]

  wanted to give like a fake name to a [TS]

  newspaper reporter or something instead [TS]

  of going for something like name that [TS]

  sounds like you know like some general [TS]

  reference when it said aloud that you [TS]

  know people have done before you start [TS]

  giving named casey less ok and it [TS]

  wouldn't be amazing to just have like [TS]

  all the kc Lissa's like just showing up [TS]

  everywhere [TS]

  no that'll ruin my vanity searches man [TS]

  come on that's the best reason to do it [TS]

  yeah yeah so that really weirded me out [TS]

  when I was in California was probably [TS]

  three in the morning or something like [TS]

  this and i found that i have a quasi [TS]

  doppelganger I think there's a term for [TS]

  this I don't think its doppelganger [TS]

  because this is a double ganger somebody [TS]

  that looks like you but isn't you [TS]

  yes where's the Loom lot it's over the a [TS]

  I gotta get this right and unless we [TS]

  have all the appearance [TS]

  oh my god those for you yeah we're all [TS]

  just one serial killer away from having [TS]

  her vanity searches ruined anyway you're [TS]

  going through a letter or pop star you [TS]

  going through life and your name is [TS]

  Michael Bolton has an office space and [TS]

  you feel like you're fine [TS]

  it was a good game so that no-talent [TS]

  assclown room [TS]

  God did we or did we get a reference [TS]

  trifecta I yeah i was i'm coming down to [TS]

  your level [TS]

  it's one of the five movies I've seen [TS]

  goodness alright so we should probably [TS]

  do a little bit of follow-up wdc charge [TS]

  failures we had a lot of discussion in [TS]

  the past episode about what would happen [TS]

  if you win the lottery and you have won [TS]

  the right to give Apple sixteen hundred [TS]

  dollars of your money and then they [TS]

  attempt to charge your credit card and [TS]

  credit card company says screw you [TS]

  listen David back road in and said I got [TS]

  an email on Saturday that they failed to [TS]

  charge my card for WWDC I updated my [TS]

  info and they successfully charged it [TS]

  today I even got a phone call from an [TS]

  apple dev relations representative to [TS]

  make sure everything worked out [TS]

  additionally Andrew wrote in my credit [TS]

  card got declined not for billing info [TS]

  apple gave me three days to get it fixed [TS]

  yeah so that's great sounds like they [TS]

  have they have taken this really bad [TS]

  like just kind of like you know really [TS]

  like hurts to happen to you floss from [TS]

  previous lottery systems the last couple [TS]

  years and they have fixed it so that's [TS]

  great let's talk about Volvos level for [TS]

  self-driving car [TS]

  yes the beginning of the beginning [TS]

  beginning middle of the autonomous [TS]

  driving crash talking among car vendor [TS]

  so Tesla that's a lot of the press for [TS]

  the self-driving cars and marco was [TS]

  talking about the last show how people [TS]

  were asking always the one that drives [TS]

  itself and everything and so of course [TS]

  every car maker has some variant of this [TS]

  type of technology they're out now are [TS]

  coming out soon and Volvo is hyping its [TS]

  self-driving stuff mostly on a safety [TS]

  basis and they are trashing Tesla saying [TS]

  that they have you know level for we [TS]

  talked about that the past show the sae [TS]

  levels of autonomous cars going from [TS]

  zero to five five being full automation [TS]

  of all those things supposedly level [TS]

  forest is not only would drive itself [TS]

  down the road but it is capable of [TS]

  handling any situation that come across [TS]

  without human intervention something [TS]

  goes wrong in the car can even see if we [TS]

  stop itself at the side of the road and [TS]

  there are senior technical leader of [TS]

  crash avoidance at volvo says yeah if [TS]

  you don't take over meaning like if you [TS]

  don't take over driving if you're [TS]

  falling asleep you're watching a film [TS]

  then we will take responsible [TS]

  he won't just turn autonomous mode off [TS]

  so that's you know Tesla will do the [TS]

  market was it like beeps at you or [TS]

  something and then eventually turns [TS]

  autonomous mode offers to do if you are [TS]

  if you don't take the wheel it beeps [TS]

  like a quick error code the beep and [TS]

  then it's like the same code if it fails [TS]

  your kind of used to hearing it in bad [TS]

  situations and then it just said I you [TS]

  know I haven't actually let it go to see [TS]

  like what happens if I don't intervene [TS]

  and I probably won't ever try that but I [TS]

  would imagine it just coast I don't [TS]

  think it likes slows down or try to pull [TS]

  over or anything but I could be wrong [TS]

  yes I was always saying there they said [TS]

  they're claiming to have a level-4 [TS]

  system which is called hi automation and [TS]

  this little diagram from the SEC folks [TS]

  one below full automation and they claim [TS]

  that you know don't worry about it we [TS]

  will handle everything we all want just [TS]

  handle like oh well do that you driving [TS]

  when it's easy but we get confused as [TS]

  you're trying to take over the city when [TS]

  you fall asleep [TS]

  we'll handle it now does handling it [TS]

  mean oh if you fall asleep pull over to [TS]

  the side of the road because that could [TS]

  be extremely dangerous depending on [TS]

  which road you're on but anyway the [TS]

  research for true artificial [TS]

  intelligence to drive your car continues [TS]

  you know and also i mean there's there's [TS]

  so many other things about this about [TS]

  you know unintended automated driving [TS]

  they're just really hard like as I'm [TS]

  driving around it now town with this [TS]

  like partially rudimentary referred [TS]

  mental rudimentary what's the word their [TS]

  rudimentary but with but in adjective [TS]

  form I you got me rudimentary Lee anyway [TS]

  whatever that word is if it exists as [TS]

  I'm driving around with with a car with [TS]

  that level of automation I i see so many [TS]

  situations where like wow myself every [TS]

  car we have a really hard time with with [TS]

  this thing i just adore this road them [TS]

  on or this condition is past and even [TS]

  simple things like those systems that [TS]

  are automated for the highway great but [TS]

  what about highways of traffic lights on [TS]

  them you know then like if it's going to [TS]

  be that level of automation wear it it [TS]

  supposedly handles you stopping paying [TS]

  attention [TS]

  it has to also do things like stopped at [TS]

  traffic lights and or you know follow a [TS]

  traffic cop directions through [TS]

  construction zones or something like [TS]

  there's so many is so many things like [TS]

  that where [TS]

  it's just a really hard problem that you [TS]

  know things are even often hard for [TS]

  humans to figure out what to do where to [TS]

  put their car and so it just shows like [TS]

  once you start thinking about it and [TS]

  seeing the seeing in real life and [TS]

  seeing how limited the systems are today [TS]

  I think it just goes to show quite how [TS]

  complex of a problem this is not that [TS]

  it's unsolvable necessarily but that as [TS]

  as we said last time it just may not be [TS]

  as imminent as a lot of people are [TS]

  predicting a few people have written [TS]

  into say you know you guys you really [TS]

  are supposed to eject volumes on windows [TS]

  as well as on OS 10 i can tell you that [TS]

  I used windows for a long long time and [TS]

  all I ever did was pay attention to this [TS]

  is almost always with the USB key pay [TS]

  attention to when the USB key stopped [TS]

  flashing its little LED and then I [TS]

  ripped it out never thought twice and i [TS]

  think i might have data may have had [TS]

  data loss like once who knows how many [TS]

  files you corrupted you know then was [TS]

  that you notice once [TS]

  fair enough i didn't know that you were [TS]

  supposed to matter i thought that was [TS]

  the the actual windows way was way for [TS]

  the blinking light to stop it must have [TS]

  been at some point like in the das days [TS]

  i guess because there's no unmounting [TS]

  your floppy disk and das you just wait [TS]

  for the drive like to stop blinking and [TS]

  then you right turn the little thing and [TS]

  yank out your five and a quarter but [TS]

  anyway I it if you're supposed to do in [TS]

  a modern windows too i have also not [TS]

  seen people do that they just wait for [TS]

  the light that thinking like to stop and [TS]

  yank it out and that is crazy in a world [TS]

  of Ohio but fair enough [TS]

  alright well any other follow-up unless [TS]

  unless we want to talk more about the [TS]

  bumper sounds I mean we should talk [TS]

  about that at some point out of its [TS]

  follow-up anymore though we have more to [TS]

  talk about we're leaving XP sounds [TS]

  because they're perfect [TS]

  alright moving on responses tonight by [TS]

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  thanks to cast for sponsoring our show [TS]

  so you released a new version of [TS]

  overcast which has a much-improved sync [TS]

  system or maybe yeah how was your day a [TS]

  few days ago [TS]

  well I release two versions overcast in [TS]

  the last few days if that tells you [TS]

  exactly how good the first one was mine [TS]

  yeah I released a new version overcast [TS]

  that had a noticeable improvements to [TS]

  sinking and in particular the speed of [TS]

  syncing between multiple devices and [TS]

  iikind of code name this quick sync even [TS]

  though i know lots of other things i can [TS]

  tell things like there's so many things [TS]

  in the tech industry called Quick Sync [TS]

  that's why I'd not really heavily [TS]

  branding it and I didn't capitalize it [TS]

  i'm not really it doesn't appear [TS]

  anywhere in the apt [TS]

  kind of is what i call it in blog posts [TS]

  it basically what this is is a weird [TS]

  tricky sync system that combines push [TS]

  notifications and icloud key-value store [TS]

  to try to get fast thinking between [TS]

  multiple devices most of which are Apple [TS]

  devices and one of which is my website [TS]

  the technical details of it aren't that [TS]

  interesting i don't think every single [TS]

  object has a sink version number on it [TS]

  and when you make a change you increment [TS]

  the version number and the server [TS]

  command the server managers conflicts [TS]

  when they arise when you make a change [TS]

  you also append to an iCloud key value [TS]

  store list the object you just changing [TS]

  its ID and then the version number that [TS]

  you just set on it when the key-value [TS]

  store syncs across other devices that [TS]

  are running overcast they will within [TS]

  usually a few seconds or so they will [TS]

  get that notification from iCloud which [TS]

  has a persistent connection to the [TS]

  phones will get information from cloud [TS]

  saying hey this dictionary just changed [TS]

  and now you can look at you can say this [TS]

  has version numbers on these objects [TS]

  that I don't know about yet so then that [TS]

  triggers the device to go to my servers [TS]

  and fetch the new information even in [TS]

  the background [TS]

  well it won't it if the app is running [TS]

  at all it'll get the notifications but [TS]

  if it's so if it's playing audio it will [TS]

  get them because running but if it's [TS]

  suspended in the background when it's [TS]

  not playing audio it won't get them [TS]

  until it wakes up again [TS]

  gotcha so i made the system and I [TS]

  tightened up a few other timings of [TS]

  various things like when you activate [TS]

  the app how often is it sink is it to [TS]

  sink every time you activated or is it [TS]

  doesn't have like a certain minimum [TS]

  every X minutes and then certain things [TS]

  you do like should I sink every time you [TS]

  pause or seek and then if if you're just [TS]

  playing audio how often should I sink [TS]

  the playback position of that so if that [TS]

  thing's probably to the website and your [TS]

  other devices if you have any devices [TS]

  it's just this kind of complex fairly [TS]

  boring solution to a really tricky [TS]

  problem which is sinking things in both [TS]

  way that's quick and efficient of data [TS]

  and power usage and server resources [TS]

  it's kind of hard to get right and the [TS]

  first version i launched I didn't get it [TS]

  right and smoke there was a sink loop [TS]

  issue which fortunately I could fix [TS]

  server side but all day yesterday my [TS]

  servers are collapsing because this in [TS]

  theory creates more sink requests than [TS]

  before i was expecting this [TS]

  and so on the server I i actually the [TS]

  server tells the app how frequently to [TS]

  sink certain things and and how long [TS]

  certain time should be so things like to [TS]

  to coalesce or had his head [TS]

  federico that koalas time timer [TS]

  qualifying yes so so I i do some of that [TS]

  and so the server using just like you [TS]

  know tweaking some variables variables [TS]

  in the server i can slow down all the [TS]

  ads or speed them up and so I lost like [TS]

  kind of like a middle setting i thought [TS]

  would be good a little bit conservative [TS]

  and my servers were just collapsing and [TS]

  I'm wondering what the heck is going on [TS]

  so I start looking at the logs right at [TS]

  you know adding more debug information [TS]

  for an optimized certain things I [TS]

  immediately provision fifty percent more [TS]

  web servers just more instances get them [TS]

  out there p someone comes with the [TS]

  massive speed up and memory reduction so [TS]

  in the midst of all this i'm like you [TS]

  know I was running on one server before [TS]

  and let me just deployed to the rest i [TS]

  need any savings you can get right now [TS]

  so i have creepy doll them doing all [TS]

  this crazy stuff upgrading things [TS]

  optimizing things checking database [TS]

  query spreading out memcache like doing [TS]

  all like mike reading skills of it was [TS]

  like the server day from hell [TS]

  in my career I've had many server days [TS]

  from hell [TS]

  very few of them know after i left [TS]

  tumblr because i was once I left tumblr [TS]

  i was dealing with things that were just [TS]

  much smaller scale so it's paper you [TS]

  know I had some of those days but the [TS]

  scale wasn't as big and then with with [TS]

  overcast I've had almost none of those [TS]

  surveys from hell because a I've gotten [TS]

  better at do at doing server stuff be [TS]

  the server stuff has got more powerful [TS]

  and see overcast isn't that big as i get [TS]

  further from having server days from [TS]

  Hell frequently each one I have now is [TS]

  like I have no tolerance for any more so [TS]

  each server day from hell i have now at [TS]

  the end of it just like i'm just using [TS]

  iCloud from now on I like I don't want [TS]

  to ever be doing this again [TS]

  but but but i'm still doing it for the [TS]

  next few days at least speak what [TS]

  happens anyway so eventually to make a [TS]

  very long story short eventually I'll i [TS]

  figured out under certain conditions [TS]

  after basically there there's a race [TS]

  condition checker if between when used [TS]

  when you start a sink and when you end [TS]

  the sink if you change that object [TS]

  locally then you by definition have the [TS]

  most recent version as long as think [TS]

  that you didn't span hours or days or [TS]

  whatever you know if it's like an [TS]

  immediate mode sink if you modify it [TS]

  during sync operation and the server [TS]

  comes back saying what you have is [TS]

  out-of-date replace it with this stuff I [TS]

  got from some other ipad somewhere [TS]

  that's in your closet then you know like [TS]

  know what you have is correct so there's [TS]

  a condition where the app can tell the [TS]

  server no matter what you think you have [TS]

  replace it with what i have i'm forcing [TS]

  you to accept my eyes a force over right [TS]

  kind of conflict resolution [TS]

  there's condition where the app was [TS]

  saying no force this because there was a [TS]

  race condition the server under certain [TS]

  conditions was incrementing its version [TS]

  number on the response back which meant [TS]

  it put itself in a loop the app would [TS]

  say no force it to have this the server [TS]

  would say okay and it was sent back [TS]

  something saying but the new version is [TS]

  this and the app would say okay but I'm [TS]

  also changing out the new version is [TS]

  this plus one server would say back on [TS]

  ok thanks but now it's this plus 1 so it [TS]

  was it created this loop under that [TS]

  certain race conditioned response [TS]

  scenario that in which also nothing was [TS]

  actually changed it [TS]

  it's this wouldn't have happened for [TS]

  almost anybody and I had a beta test [TS]

  that have 500 people on it and it never [TS]

  happened in the beta should let it run [TS]

  to see if you could have overflow the [TS]

  end [TS]

  how big was the the number big enough [TS]

  that i would have gotten very big [TS]

  trouble if i would have let that happen [TS]

  because it's I i don't think i used a [TS]

  big and i think i use a regular in so [TS]

  it's it's at least 32 bits ahead and and [TS]

  I was seeing revision numbers that were [TS]

  in like the you know six hundreds range [TS]

  so it would have taken a while to get to [TS]

  4.2 billion that will be there it was [TS]

  if I unsigned it you know maybe two [TS]

  billion if I if I didn't if I signed it [TS]

  but anyway [TS]

  so this this is obviously a problem [TS]

  fortunately that i was able to fix [TS]

  server side but it took me most of the [TS]

  day to find that to figure out what was [TS]

  causing certain clients to just hit the [TS]

  sync service over and over again with [TS]

  seemingly identical looking requests so [TS]

  i resolved my day from hell for the most [TS]

  part there was also separately from that [TS]

  a race condition sink plug which causes [TS]

  episodes to basically come back from the [TS]

  dead [TS]

  sometimes like if you if you played it [TS]

  on an iPad and then went and finished on [TS]

  your phone [TS]

  next time you launch the ipad app the [TS]

  ipad but tell the server hey I have this [TS]

  version of those things I'm playing and [TS]

  it also can can cause some weird issues [TS]

  so i submitted an expedited request [TS]

  which I hardly ever do so basically it [TS]

  was it was a day and a half from hell [TS]

  and now my hands are all sore from RSI [TS]

  stuff from the server day from how and [TS]

  yeah I i'm looking forward to just [TS]

  talking for the next hour instead of [TS]

  well not the whole hour you're gonna [TS]

  talk for most of the rest of it the part [TS]

  where we tell Marco about unit test [TS]

  again I think Casey because i think [TS]

  you're right on our regular scheduled [TS]

  see what you do is for every weird case [TS]

  you can think of involving everywhere [TS]

  device you simulate those scenarios in a [TS]

  series of tests and every time you come [TS]

  for the new scenario that you're worried [TS]

  about as you drift off to sleep you're [TS]

  like I'm going to write tests for that [TS]

  and see if it works and then you run [TS]

  those tests to make sure you haven't [TS]

  broken anything it really thats it [TS]

  everytime you revise the sync system and [TS]

  then you feel better when you do release [TS]

  and you're still not going to find all [TS]

  the bugs but every time you find one of [TS]

  them part of fixing the bug is not just [TS]

  fixing it on your server and fiction and [TS]

  your client releasing two versions but [TS]

  writing a failing test case to isolate [TS]

  the bug and then fixing the bug and see [TS]

  that it fixes your tests and then every [TS]

  time you run this s you feel a little [TS]

  better about the changes you're making [TS]

  yep that cover everything [TS]

  yeah I think so alright so so John case [TS]

  you guys can come over and you can read [TS]

  a bunch of tests for me to show me how [TS]

  good they are [TS]

  I won't pay you doing for exposure and [TS]

  of course and then you can and if I like [TS]

  it maybe i'll hire you in the future [TS]

  mm I see how does everybody think so [TS]

  it's the new gig you know where were [TS]

  implementing the company's a pall over [TS]

  again you know where we implementing our [TS]

  app and the guy I'm working with whom [TS]

  archos actually a Jamie he has not [TS]

  really done unit testing before but it's [TS]

  been really really open to it and really [TS]

  interested in doing it on this project [TS]

  you know cuz we're trying to do [TS]

  everything is right as we possibly can [TS]

  and over the last just 48 hours he said [TS]

  to me at least three or four different [TS]

  times oh my god i'm so glad i wrote a [TS]

  unit test because I just exposed a bug i [TS]

  didn't even know was there just saying [TS]

  they're your friend kids they're your [TS]

  friend systems are our pain especially [TS]

  in client-server things are pain and you [TS]

  know this is like sort of designing for [TS]

  testability if you know you're going to [TS]

  have something like that as a pain like [TS]

  how much I'm gonna write as against as [TS]

  you need a server and the client their [TS]

  separate code bases the running several [TS]

  places like it encourages you to make [TS]

  both ends of your sync system work [TS]

  disembodied like happens to be divorced [TS]

  from both the client and the server so [TS]

  you can actually test them and then the [TS]

  only thing the client and the server [TS]

  providing is like little homes and [TS]

  transport mechanisms and you can test [TS]

  the transformers and mechanisms [TS]

  independently and then once you have [TS]

  those pieces and you're confident that [TS]

  those tests show that they work the way [TS]

  they work then you can write your series [TS]

  of scenarios with just a bunch of you [TS]

  know test data and fixtures and you know [TS]

  the beginning your chest you make a [TS]

  whole bunch of theoretical devices in [TS]

  different states and then you make them [TS]

  collide with each other in different [TS]

  ways you can do fuzz testing and [TS]

  randomize them and have them you know be [TS]

  turned on and turned off at random [TS]

  intervals to make sure everything [TS]

  resolved and you know anyway [TS]

  yeah they are they are super annoying to [TS]

  code and super annoying to test but if [TS]

  you if you code with that in mind from [TS]

  the beginning you can save yourself a [TS]

  lot of a lot of headaches i remember [TS]

  with the worst one I think I recall [TS]

  doing was involved a whole mess of [TS]

  stored procedure code in the database [TS]

  which is a particularly easy to like [TS]

  divorce from the database itself and you [TS]

  can't really mock it while you can [TS]

  market the other sense of the word but [TS]

  anyway so you kind of had so you had to [TS]

  like sort of make a new database [TS]

  instance for testing purposes filled [TS]

  with crap data and then run the store [TS]

  procedures I couldn't figure out how to [TS]

  get that logic out of there and had to [TS]

  be any way it always it that's that's [TS]

  what the worst and the best project that [TS]

  I can recall [TS]

  and that way the worst thing that was [TS]

  the hardest to make it testable and the [TS]

  best in that it was this Byzantine [TS]

  system came up [TS]

  movers come up with by some business [TS]

  person with a very complicated excel [TS]

  spreadsheet and there's no way in hell I [TS]

  would have any confidence that I was [TS]

  correctly implementing this crazy [TS]

  specification it wasn't for x in x and x [TS]

  of unit tests was the only I mean that's [TS]

  the only way I could have you know when [TS]

  i was done because it was just it was [TS]

  nonsensical but it's like well this [TS]

  thing does what you say in every obscure [TS]

  scenario into the corner case that isn't [TS]

  covered by your stupid specification [TS]

  i'll ask you about it and whatever you [TS]

  say on the mint and I'll say look this [TS]

  is everything enjoy and I hope tomorrow [TS]

  system is considerable as complicated [TS]

  than that BS thing that I still think [TS]

  about sometimes he still get the night [TS]

  sweats about it is a fairly simple [TS]

  system it really is it just it like most [TS]

  of the bugs and sink have been on the [TS]

  app side not on the server side this was [TS]

  really think this might be the first [TS]

  server-side stink bug that I've ever had [TS]

  that was like meaningful well it's a [TS]

  combination menu is like which side is [TS]

  the bug on who's behaving badly because [TS]

  their server was confused because it was [TS]

  sending back the wrong version number [TS]

  but it's like you know it doesn't really [TS]

  matter which side you're on the same [TS]

  team here you just trying to just try to [TS]

  get them to not have infinite loops like [TS]

  that's the one you know coalesced to [TS]

  some of the reversion that have does [TS]

  those the worst test to make like [TS]

  performance tests and like average [TS]

  number of sinks test to try to catch out [TS]

  of bounds errors when you just want an [TS]

  order of magnitude look I'm gonna run [TS]

  this whole set of unit tests and it [TS]

  should run somewhere in the thousands of [TS]

  requests across the virtual wire if it [TS]

  runs 10,000 or hundred thousand maybe [TS]

  throw of test failure and say hey I've [TS]

  seen order of magnitude change in the [TS]

  amount of traffic maybe something is [TS]

  wrong and that's those type of like [TS]

  heuristics especially when it's just [TS]

  your own test for years like you know [TS]

  because you what you saw was a crazy [TS]

  increase in traffic but it could have [TS]

  been legit like you don't know that you [TS]

  don't you don't know what's out there on [TS]

  the world how many minutes maybe [TS]

  everyone just updated all the same time [TS]

  or whatever but you're in your unit test [TS]

  if you had triggered that that loop you [TS]

  would have seen the number of requests [TS]

  going back and forth be much higher than [TS]

  it was before and then you [TS]

  on the alert and be like all right well [TS]

  none of my test got this bug but this is [TS]

  really doing way more sinking traffic [TS]

  than i think it shouldn't have to figure [TS]

  what that is and for what it's worth the [TS]

  protocol oriented design and Swift makes [TS]

  a lot of this much easier just saying [TS]

  great you can come right all about you [TS]

  can write on my swift code to that's [TS]

  fine [TS]

  so when you are doing all these fixes [TS]

  you said a lot of it with server-side [TS]

  would you just deploy that crap live [TS]

  everywhere and just pray that everything [TS]

  was good like how do you handle [TS]

  deployments in general and then also in [TS]

  these like red alert all hands on deck [TS]

  sort of situations but i had to go [TS]

  through code review first and then qai [TS]

  take away haha he had the inside officer [TS]

  management yeah has to go through legal [TS]

  you know [TS]

  yeah well first i run my my arsenal of [TS]

  unit tests and integration tests [TS]

  whatever that in mediums [TS]

  yep I don't honestly know what that [TS]

  means I then have a stand-up in the [TS]

  parking lot [TS]

  would you stop answer the damn question [TS]

  yes so uh i use get to manage my [TS]

  webserver source code and when I you [TS]

  know what I i have local development [TS]

  environment on my mac so I test things [TS]

  locally here relatively informally and [TS]

  then I'm careful i know that sounds [TS]

  terrible i apologize to everybody who's [TS]

  yelling at me right now through their [TS]

  car speakers or whatever and then I go [TS]

  to one of the servers that is kind of [TS]

  like they like maintains the master [TS]

  check out and I do get pull on there and [TS]

  then I have a deploy script from there [TS]

  that are single the files to all the [TS]

  other servers that matter and that [TS]

  script runs a few additional checks to [TS]

  make sure things like I didn't commit a [TS]

  PHP syntax error like a real refuse to [TS]

  push anything like that but it's fairly [TS]

  for the most part fairly rudimentary [TS]

  preflight checks there and then it sinks [TS]

  it and i watch logs and i watch stats [TS]

  afterwards to see like tenting reporting [TS]

  errors anything jumping up and load [TS]

  weirdly or having way you know [TS]

  no more anything that I measuring your [TS]

  way less than anything I measuring I'm [TS]

  measuring things like cache hit rates [TS]

  and all sorts of your database [TS]

  performance database lag stuff like that [TS]

  so you're pulling service out of the [TS]

  pool as you update them [TS]

  no that's not a pc works literally just [TS]

  replace the files like life I know but [TS]

  you're not you're not replacing all the [TS]

  files at once though [TS]

  no it doesn't matter what I kind of does [TS]

  Nick I think and it does [TS]

  no I I know what you're saying in [TS]

  practice it doesn't matter really like [TS]

  for the kind of things i'm doing for the [TS]

  four the speed at which these things are [TS]

  happening the way PHP manages it and the [TS]

  error rate like that happen from like [TS]

  somebody getting a partially updated [TS]

  check out it's enough to to usually [TS]

  cause like one crash a year [TS]

  well at the traffic regular your normal [TS]

  traffic rates yes but 10,000 requests a [TS]

  second the the number of requests to [TS]

  come in between the time the first file [TS]

  our sinks to a server in the last five [TS]

  hours think the server could be a big [TS]

  number [TS]

  oh yeah well that's why I mean yeah [TS]

  10,000 requests a second like you don't [TS]

  know that that's when you develop better [TS]

  systems but my normal traffic level is [TS]

  like but a hundred remember you were at [TS]

  10,000 requests and second even if [TS]

  you're at all those were actually [TS]

  getting the application service [TS]

  applications kept falling others just [TS]

  being a lesbian all right well anyway [TS]

  application server getting about 500 of [TS]

  them is that the good thing about about [TS]

  a truly disastrous scenario is like well [TS]

  it's so broken now I can't possibly make [TS]

  it worse [TS]

  and yeah basically it's like it's [TS]

  working at the least of my concerns is [TS]

  somebody hitting a web server actually [TS]

  getting a response and having that [TS]

  response be wrong because of these two [TS]

  files at radisson are you know if I've [TS]

  had 500 or something because you know [TS]

  it's a half updated source code or let [TS]

  that actually never happens like the [TS]

  files are seemingly updated atomically [TS]

  or maybe PHP is smart about when it [TS]

  likely pick them up fruit from it's [TS]

  compiled cash i don't know he write unit [TS]

  tests this with a bunch of sleep call [TS]

  somewhere and induce this failure mode [TS]

  and see what happens [TS]

  added to your list and then he'll will [TS]

  freeze over yeah i mean i kind of thing [TS]

  like I i am fully aware that the proper [TS]

  way to do these things are not the way [TS]

  I'm doing them for meant for much of [TS]

  this stuff you know the stuff that [TS]

  matters [TS]

  I think I'm pretty solid on things like [TS]

  security privacy like that stuff I i'm [TS]

  pretty sure i'm doing correctly you [TS]

  as much as I possibly can but things [TS]

  like like this it's more kind of like [TS]

  the the advanced software development [TS]

  proper methodology kind of stuff I do [TS]

  play fast and loose with I know that [TS]

  part of that is because i never learned [TS]

  any other way and I do regret never [TS]

  having worked in like a big software [TS]

  development organization that was [TS]

  well-run I i never had that experience I [TS]

  only work in small places where they [TS]

  were either just very few developers or [TS]

  I wasn't the only one [TS]

  and so it's I never learned the more [TS]

  fancy systems from anyone elses work [TS]

  environment and and I do regret that [TS]

  career-wise on some level that's a whole [TS]

  other set of pathology is associated [TS]

  with those don't believe those are [TS]

  actually I mean that's just a different [TS]

  set of problems that come with the rest [TS]

  is so you can [TS]

  yeah so that's the main reason I don't [TS]

  do some of the more formalized honestly [TS]

  burn some stuff is because I don't know [TS]

  how anyone ever done it and then the [TS]

  secondary reason is because I just don't [TS]

  see the need or the justification for [TS]

  the time as a as a one-person you know [TS]

  basically part-time project that it's [TS]

  you know it's hard for me to justify [TS]

  spending a whole bunch of time and [TS]

  overhead and extra money on some of the [TS]

  stuff because it's like I can't afford [TS]

  the time overhead for that and look I [TS]

  know there's gonna be a lot of people [TS]

  who say well if you can't afford to do [TS]

  it right you shouldn't do it all and [TS]

  well would you rather overcast not exist [TS]

  you know it's that's these are the kinds [TS]

  of decisions that I face and so you know [TS]

  it's it you do what you can and you know [TS]

  what when you're when you're working for [TS]

  yourself on your own with a project that [TS]

  has fairly slim margins you can't really [TS]

  hire anybody else like you know you [TS]

  gotta make cuts somewhere and either the [TS]

  product doesn't ship or doesn't progress [TS]

  or you know you maybe you don't write / [TS]

  unit tests or any but you know Horomia [TS]

  now I mean the good thing is like that [TS]

  the app i'm assuming since I was used [TS]

  during the time and didn't know say this [TS]

  the app is resilient to the server being [TS]

  wonky for the most part you're not going [TS]

  to see a bunch of you know just [TS]

  the set the failures behind-the-scenes [TS]

  to sink or whatever are not stopping you [TS]

  from listening to your podcast so in [TS]

  some respects you have a grace period [TS]

  and protection against users you know [TS]

  it's not as if you're at your service [TS]

  starts throwing errors on every single [TS]

  person using overcast can't listen to [TS]

  the podcast and you're just not having [TS]

  it manifests in fact so you won't even [TS]

  see an error message unless you manually [TS]

  initiate a sink like if you do the pull [TS]

  to refresh and that sink fails you'll [TS]

  see a box but if a routine think of the [TS]

  background fails you won't even know [TS]

  alright so I betting for most people [TS]

  they even though this was a busy [TS]

  stressful day for you they had no idea [TS]

  this was going on unless they follow the [TS]

  overcast twitter account because as far [TS]

  as they're concerned maybe if they were [TS]

  using multiple devices they would have [TS]

  noticed that it didn't sink or something [TS]

  and got a little bit of a frowny face [TS]

  about your system but as long as once [TS]

  you fix it it got in sync again and they [TS]

  didn't have to do anything about it [TS]

  you still got one leg up on like the the [TS]

  stubborn and ability to sync stuff that [TS]

  we all complain about an iCloud messages [TS]

  or whatever where there's nothing you [TS]

  can do and never fixes itself [TS]

  automatically writers I mean like you [TS]

  know I've built i built all my sink [TS]

  stuff to fully work in offline and [TS]

  failure scenarios and ended to do the [TS]

  right thing as far as i know we'll see [TS]

  if I ever tested but as far as i know it [TS]

  does the right thing like this all comes [TS]

  like when I made into paper that was [TS]

  designed for offline use the whole thing [TS]

  was designed to be to have a bunch of [TS]

  changes happen while offline and then [TS]

  sink later at some point and have it [TS]

  have it be correct and so I took that [TS]

  same ethos to overcast or like any state [TS]

  of connections coming up and down and [TS]

  doing stuff offline doing stuff online [TS]

  it should always do the right thing when [TS]

  it gets a chance to connect again and so [TS]

  you're right most people onto a like you [TS]

  are on Twitter and stuff like I got [TS]

  almost no support email about the server [TS]

  problems and i got only a very small [TS]

  handful of tweets most of the people [TS]

  saying why is it like it's being slow to [TS]

  load this directory category or this you [TS]

  know it was something slow to load [TS]

  something that dynamically fetched for [TS]

  the most part this mean that that's part [TS]

  of the reason why like why able to do [TS]

  overcast server stuff without massive [TS]

  stress weighing on me all the time [TS]

  because honestly i don't have [TS]

  the capacity for that anymore i'm able [TS]

  to overcast level of it because if the [TS]

  entire service goes down you know [TS]

  worst-case scenario everything goes down [TS]

  kingdom lights up all of my devices with [TS]

  alerts for some reason that stays down [TS]

  for like two hours [TS]

  most of my customers won't even know and [TS]

  that's kind of freeing in a way not not [TS]

  that I would let that happen but I don't [TS]

  have to be in constant fear of that [TS]

  happening [TS]

  that's interesting point by the way [TS]

  speaking of RSI that you were talking [TS]

  about 4y well I RSI tip from my longtime [TS]

  suffer many things contribute our side [TS]

  was talked about in the past one of the [TS]

  really big contributors surprisingly [TS]

  which people don't think about is stress [TS]

  as and i'm not sure how much type in you [TS]

  did Marco on that day but i would wager [TS]

  that it's probably not much more typing [TS]

  that you did on a really productive [TS]

  coding day but if you are doing that [TS]

  typing frantically while stressed it [TS]

  makes a big difference in terms of how [TS]

  much information and then problems you [TS]

  get so we you because you'll be typing [TS]

  harder because you'll be more prone to [TS]

  you know whatever stress hormones are [TS]

  going through some more prone to [TS]

  inflammation being working when under [TS]

  pressure when you are stressed huge [TS]

  contributor to [TS]

  in addition to the typical things we [TS]

  talked about like how many keystrokes [TS]

  did you type how long have you been [TS]

  using the computer how many breaks if [TS]

  you're taking us all those happen when [TS]

  you're stressed you tend to not take [TS]

  breaks everything like that but merely [TS]

  be active being stressed depending on [TS]

  your type of RS I can be a huge [TS]

  contributing factor and I've always been [TS]

  aware of that and the year since my [TS]

  worst flare-ups that like sometimes you [TS]

  just have to chill out like you can [TS]

  continue to work productively and take [TS]

  breaks but while you're working you find [TS]

  yourself like tensing up and all but you [TS]

  know just all the muscles in your body [TS]

  telling that is terrible for most kinds [TS]

  of RSI yeah i mean and that was totally [TS]

  the case yesterday and today and and i [TS]

  usually don't feel that and that's I [TS]

  think you're right i mean that's that's [TS]

  obviously very related to things like [TS]

  back pain very very related and so I've [TS]

  certainly seen that before [TS]

  also I'm pretty sure I'm getting sick [TS]

  and whenever i'm getting sick the day or [TS]

  two beforehand coffee stops working and [TS]

  I start getting our site ain't getting [TS]

  stops working [TS]

  does that mean it means like I no longer [TS]

  get like the the energy boost the lady [TS]

  awakeness boost from the caffeine [TS]

  yeah but you can quit anytime don't [TS]

  worry what if when you had mentioned [TS]

  earlier that you were thinking about [TS]

  when you said it kind of jokingly but [TS]

  you said you were thinking about [TS]

  switching entirely to iCloud I haven't [TS]

  kept up with some of them the more late [TS]

  breaking changes to iCloud in the last [TS]

  year or 2i I know that there's some [TS]

  amount of support for getting to user [TS]

  data from the web [TS]

  have you looked deeply or even slightly [TS]

  deeply into that to see like could you [TS]

  still do the overcast web app with just [TS]

  iCloud I know about as much as bad as [TS]

  what you just said but she's okay i know [TS]

  there's some like they call it a [TS]

  JavaScript interface but basically it's [TS]

  whatever your best you could do from [TS]

  server to i think yeah so they're there [TS]

  are ways that you can use cloudkit from [TS]

  the from something that's not an apple [TS]

  device [TS]

  I don't know anything more about it than [TS]

  that and obviously if I decided to do [TS]

  something like this [TS]

  the first thing I would do would be to [TS]

  look into that and you know what I'm [TS]

  dealing with here [TS]

  sure trade your personal stress for the [TS]

  impotent rage of apples bugs that you [TS]

  can't fix that you can't get them to [TS]

  take seriously right but you know like [TS]

  it every level whenever you whenever you [TS]

  like [TS]

  outsource some amount of your apps [TS]

  functionality to some kind of [TS]

  third-party service like that when [TS]

  things break it's not usually your fault [TS]

  it is your problem but there's often [TS]

  nothing you can do about it like [TS]

  oftentimes the solution is just well I [TS]

  guess we have to wait a few days for [TS]

  this to get better or we have to wait an [TS]

  hour for this thing to be up again or [TS]

  whatever if it becomes longer than that [TS]

  if it's like we have to wait a few years [TS]

  for this to get better [TS]

  that becomes a bigger problem for you [TS]

  you know then that's kind of on you that [TS]

  you should you move to something else [TS]

  but something like like you know I i [TS]

  mentioned hosted at linode I don't [TS]

  manage their switches and if they have a [TS]

  network outage for like five minutes [TS]

  nothing to do about it so it's kind of [TS]

  freeing in that way because it's like [TS]

  well i just have to sit back and wait [TS]

  for this to get fixed and you know maybe [TS]

  if it goes on for a while I might file a [TS]

  ticket just to make sure they're really [TS]

  know about it but in every instance they [TS]

  already did not [TS]

  got it and it gets fixed a few minutes [TS]

  later so it's you know nothing of a [TS]

  problem like this is like that you know [TS]

  it's like the web hosting continue on [TS]

  like you as you you can move up the the [TS]

  hierarchy of like web hosting [TS]

  abstractions and each one you go up you [TS]

  know you get more things that are taken [TS]

  out of your hands and then again they [TS]

  are still your problem but you know it's [TS]

  good that you're pretty if your [TS]

  customers have your appt stop working [TS]

  your service stopped working [TS]

  they don't care if your web host is [TS]

  having a temporary switch outage they [TS]

  will go to you and they will say you are [TS]

  down you are broken one star useless i [TS]

  want my money back plus damages etc you [TS]

  know them and the more you go up the [TS]

  stack you are saving yourself work but [TS]

  you're also adding more and more things [TS]

  to the giant list of things that are out [TS]

  of your control and again it's a balance [TS]

  for the most part that is freeing when [TS]

  you do that but it does become a problem [TS]

  if the service you're on just starts to [TS]

  suck it [TS]

  it's not just a temporary outage but if [TS]

  they just take a turn or quality slips [TS]

  or they could decide to get acquiring [TS]

  and shut down the service that you were [TS]

  using or something like that like that [TS]

  because your problem i try to minimize [TS]

  ways in which things like that can be a [TS]

  problem for me by doing things like you [TS]

  know i'm just using standard Linux toast [TS]

  my stuff and trying on VPS is but I'm [TS]

  not doing anything fancy with the VPS is [TS]

  and I could go to any other VPS or [TS]

  dedicated server host and run the exact [TS]

  same sort stack and with the exact same [TS]

  servers and no changes really just like [TS]

  moving servers over which is not that [TS]

  big of a deal i keep things in such a [TS]

  way that I i try to abstract away as [TS]

  much as i can so i don't have to worry [TS]

  about the basics of things like power [TS]

  connectivity failed discs stuff like [TS]

  that but i'm not going to go all the way [TS]

  to a service like App Engine or heroku [TS]

  or there or even amazon web services [TS]

  honestly where things are so abstracted [TS]

  a way that it's hard to replace for core [TS]

  functionality i do you like s3 for [TS]

  storing files and stuff but that's [TS]

  easier to swap out of it sucks that like [TS]

  oh my entire app is written based on the [TS]

  assumption of these samples services [TS]

  that i can't actually replicate anywhere [TS]

  else but this provider [TS]

  I feel like those companies you list all [TS]

  be at least more superficially [TS]

  responsive to your kids [TS]

  turns an apple because all those things [TS]

  like oh I've been i was using this web [TS]

  servers are using a roku and my thing is [TS]

  broken [TS]

  there's some person you can contact who [TS]

  will get back to you about whatever your [TS]

  problem is maybe they won't solve it [TS]

  immediately or whatever but historically [TS]

  speaking apple has not been up to the [TS]

  standards of the other sort of [TS]

  infrastructure service provider things [TS]

  in terms of all you know there's totally [TS]

  a support mechanism and a place where [TS]

  you can report problems and expect the [TS]

  speedy response and report bugs and [TS]

  issues and get them resolved with Apple [TS]

  I mean I'm just thinking like the [TS]

  football the poor gamecenter developers [TS]

  and like I mean surely they are trying [TS]

  every possible mechanism to complain to [TS]

  apple about their issues the game center [TS]

  that are causing their applications to [TS]

  hang or do weird things or have bugs and [TS]

  not only they're not getting like a [TS]

  ticket reply in five minutes and a [TS]

  response in 24 hours or whatever but [TS]

  like these are just problems that are [TS]

  festering for years on end and i have no [TS]

  idea there's any official channel [TS]

  contact going back and forth between [TS]

  them but anyway Apple together I I was [TS]

  measuring out not so much the did you [TS]

  wouldn't want to use one of these [TS]

  services but that Apple specifically [TS]

  they can highlight cloudkit and icloud [TS]

  remember how good they maybe it just [TS]

  doesn't seem like Apple set up to be the [TS]

  type of service provider like Amazon Web [TS]

  Services a heroic or whatever where [TS]

  those are entire businesses that are [TS]

  about your developer we provide a [TS]

  service you can use our services and if [TS]

  you have problems with them [TS]

  here's what you do and you can file bugs [TS]

  and track those bugs with system then [TS]

  again number perfectly have problems and [TS]

  you know all the trails you just talked [TS]

  about but apple just seems so far from [TS]

  from having even the basic sort of like [TS]

  table stakes to be a reliable [TS]

  third-party web services provider like [TS]

  Microsoft Azure or whatever even though [TS]

  they may have the tech stuff I feel like [TS]

  they don't have the discipline of [TS]

  whatever you call that the surrounding [TS]

  infrastructure behind the tech the [TS]

  people the service the tracking the [TS]

  transparency all the things that you [TS]

  would want in any service like that [TS]

  yeah i mean the reason that i would [TS]

  consider iCloud first of all like iCloud [TS]

  is an umbrella term that covers lots of [TS]

  different things and the things that are [TS]

  under it [TS]

  oftentimes are not related and have [TS]

  vastly different [TS]

  reliabilities and reputations and and [TS]

  kind of general suit abilities for [TS]

  certain tasks cloudkit which is which is [TS]

  what I would be moving to if I did that [TS]

  it you know III don't know a lot of big [TS]

  users of it but the the the bit i've [TS]

  heard so far is that it is somewhat [TS]

  limited but what it does it does very [TS]

  well and it tends to work and i don't i [TS]

  don't think a lot of people that i know [TS]

  having trouble having trouble without [TS]

  get the way they did with things like [TS]

  iCloud core data sync was always a [TS]

  disaster or even things like the [TS]

  key-value store sometimes get messed up [TS]

  a little bit or something like that but [TS]

  for the most part people think cloudkit [TS]

  is pretty good for what it does as far [TS]

  as i know yes one of the better [TS]

  technologies they released but that like [TS]

  the question is not nothing is perfect [TS]

  the question is if something goes wrong [TS]

  cloud cover your suspicious or you think [TS]

  like you don't have visibility into [TS]

  something something you can't tell [TS]

  whether it's your problem or their [TS]

  problem or its down for a while you're [TS]

  requesting slow [TS]

  do you have any hope of getting that [TS]

  result or is it just like well I just [TS]

  sit here and wait importantly and either [TS]

  improves or it doesn't [TS]

  right and there's all sorts of little [TS]

  things that would that would be [TS]

  problematic with cloudkit as well you [TS]

  know I mean you're totally right that [TS]

  like generally speaking the kind of [TS]

  relationship that Apple has with the [TS]

  public with developers is in many ways [TS]

  completely the opposite kind of approach [TS]

  and attitude and openness that you then [TS]

  within what you want from your web [TS]

  services provider you know that's it's [TS]

  really especially the developer it is [TS]

  really like you want companies that are [TS]

  transparent and that that are constantly [TS]

  iterating and make things better and [TS]

  that have stowed only a hundred percent [TS]

  solid reputation for web services and [TS]

  and in things like that and an apple [TS]

  just isn't isn't those things that's not [TS]

  the way they operate cloudkit also bring [TS]

  the the second problem of tying your [TS]

  overcast data to your devices currently [TS]

  logged in iCloud account which is not [TS]

  always a safe assumption to make [TS]

  so I mean even in my house like we have [TS]

  tips ipad pro has the best speakers of [TS]

  any type of any iOS device in the house [TS]

  because the ipad pro speakers are [TS]

  awesome so we have this ipad pro signed [TS]

  into my overcast account and in every [TS]

  other way it's tips ipad but it's kind [TS]

  of my overcast account because we use it [TS]

  frequently as a kitchen or tea [TS]

  mobile speaker to play podcast out loud [TS]

  together if I moved cloudkit then we'd [TS]

  have to either sign that entire ipad out [TS]

  of iCloud so that it would have so kind [TS]

  of my account instead of her account [TS]

  even has all of her apps and her email [TS]

  like everything else heard the ipad or [TS]

  by second ipad which provide the [TS]

  solution Apple wants us to do or switch [TS]

  to listening to her overcast account for [TS]

  anything we listen to that lab which is [TS]

  you know kind of clunky solution so you [TS]

  know there's there's problems with [TS]

  trying to ipod there's also the major [TS]

  advantage the whole reason i would [TS]

  consider using cloudkit is that right [TS]

  now I'm kind of using iCloud key value [TS]

  store as a kludge that the right [TS]

  pronunciation of clued believe is a [TS]

  closure could edit school anyway [TS]

  right now i'm using this Kluge of [TS]

  key-value store along with a server-side [TS]

  saying to check and occasional push [TS]

  notifications to try to trigger like a [TS]

  somewhat real-time connection kind of [TS]

  thing to to sink things quickly to each [TS]

  other another way to do that would be to [TS]

  have a persistent connection whenever [TS]

  the app is running you know kind of like [TS]

  kind of like a chat like where you have [TS]

  an open socket and you know you can make [TS]

  very fast that server can tell you as [TS]

  soon as it gets things the main reasons [TS]

  I don't do that our way I'm not set up [TS]

  for server-side and I could you know I [TS]

  could become setup for server-side but [TS]

  that's just it's another infrastructure [TS]

  of thing i have to set up and maintain [TS]

  and and and learn all the ways that [TS]

  fails and be the bigger reason is that [TS]

  i'm a little concerned about battery [TS]

  usage on the device apple maintains one [TS]

  of those connections for the entire [TS]

  device that's what I cloud use that's [TS]

  what push notifications use there's [TS]

  already a persistent connection to the [TS]

  device that Apple's maintaining for me [TS]

  so if i move to my cloud based solution [TS]

  i would be using the connection is [TS]

  already there so the the battery penalty [TS]

  would be either minimal or non-existent [TS]

  compared to any other solution [TS]

  did you know that for a fact that cloud [TS]

  kid uses the an open connection i [TS]

  thought it would have been doing on [TS]

  demand I'm insured you know s manage [TS]

  coalescing of requests only opening the [TS]

  connection to whatever but isn't it a [TS]

  constantly open and I thought that was [TS]

  maybe only for push notifications and [TS]

  not for cloud kids [TS]

  you know that's that's a detailed I just [TS]

  don't know the answer yet i'm an apple [TS]

  doesn't talk about it right and there [TS]

  are silent push notifications with the [TS]

  content available flag that you can that [TS]

  I do send the app whenever there's new [TS]

  episode when I never capture the [TS]

  notification that wasn't a a message [TS]

  only push that was a silent content [TS]

  available push that woke up the apt to [TS]

  tell it [TS]

  here's a new episode to download the app [TS]

  receives a notification from the server [TS]

  checks locally with preferences and [TS]

  whether to send that to you while it's [TS]

  also accusing it of download and things [TS]

  like that and then shows you a local [TS]

  notification so i could use those like [TS]

  every time the server to change send a [TS]

  constable notification to all the other [TS]

  devices on account I could do that but [TS]

  those notifications are throttled and [TS]

  are not guaranteed to be delivered and [TS]

  the answer to how many content available [TS]

  push notifications can one device [TS]

  receives reliably in USA an hour or a [TS]

  day that information I don't think is [TS]

  widely available and it's probably not [TS]

  worth relying upon anyway so there's all [TS]

  these little tricks and limitations that [TS]

  I was for power management and for you [TS]

  know keeping apps kind of from from [TS]

  making some clues and taking over the [TS]

  whole phone i have to work around all [TS]

  those words cloudkit and icloud stuff i [TS]

  believe has special privileges and is [TS]

  able to operate in i think more special [TS]

  ways i think i double-check that but [TS]

  that would be the main driving factor to [TS]

  use it over you know any other kind of [TS]

  system so if it could actually do that [TS]

  well and reliably that it might be worth [TS]

  tolerating apples potential weirdness [TS]

  and being your service provider or use [TS]

  Microsoft Azure not worried about this a [TS]

  lot of business you want to get the [TS]

  advantage of the pretty privileged [TS]

  background even doing your bidding for [TS]

  you but seems like it would basically be [TS]

  more similar to what you have now it's [TS]

  your own back-end you make it however [TS]

  you want to get your own account system [TS]

  do whatever you want with it and [TS]

  hopefully Microsoft would be more [TS]

  responsive because they're hungry but [TS]

  something like that's that's really not [TS]

  that much different from what i have now [TS]

  like I'm already right now running [TS]

  instances of cloud computing resources [TS]

  with code that i write doing almost [TS]

  everything and managing almost [TS]

  everything and like the stuff that that [TS]

  something like a sherwood would give me [TS]

  things like [TS]

  account management and like push [TS]

  notifications like that's all easy to me [TS]

  like that's that those are all solved [TS]

  problems with like a couple hundred [TS]

  lines of code that I wrote years ago and [TS]

  that still work like those are all [TS]

  totally solve problems that's not where [TS]

  the difficulty lies [TS]

  really the difficulty is in the stuff [TS]

  that with any of these providers you [TS]

  have to write even with cloudkit [TS]

  cloudkit like I called core data tried [TS]

  to do the crazy thing of like just give [TS]

  us access to your local database I'm [TS]

  just gonna make it sink and we're going [TS]

  to make that work that could never work [TS]

  like things are not things are more [TS]

  complicated than that it's not that [TS]

  Apple did a bad job of implementing that [TS]

  it's at the entire idea was deeply [TS]

  flawed from the start that was never [TS]

  going to work well [TS]

  cloudkit the reason why people like it [TS]

  so much better is because designed in [TS]

  such a way that it is kind of like a web [TS]

  service that you interact with that [TS]

  notifies you when changes then you [TS]

  locally in the app do things like [TS]

  resolving conflicts you can still make [TS]

  your own infinite loop yet exactly so [TS]

  like you're still riding the hard stuff [TS]

  you're just not running the servers but [TS]

  like you're still riding all the tricky [TS]

  complex sink logic in the app and thats [TS]

  true any of these services because sink [TS]

  is just hard and it's there really isn't [TS]

  a generalized sink library that just [TS]

  works for everybody [TS]

  like if there was thinking wouldn't be [TS]

  hard if you use iCloud if you use iCloud [TS]

  cloudkit chance i would imagine there's [TS]

  some chance that you would actually not [TS]

  have noticed as infinite loop bug for a [TS]

  long time [TS]

  it's very possible surely they have like [TS]

  this you know server capacity like the [TS]

  surge server capacity to sort of eat [TS]

  that and you know maybe someone would [TS]

  have contacted you or maybe your usage [TS]

  would have been throttled or you would [TS]

  have gone into those weird-ass tricks [TS]

  for their like you have a certain number [TS]

  of amount of data number of requests and [TS]

  if you exceed that like call us or [TS]

  whatever here will call you or you know [TS]

  when you're not when they're not your [TS]

  servers you notice this because you're [TS]

  like whoa my servers are dying but [TS]

  apples probably wouldn't die but things [TS]

  would probably gets lower the payment [TS]

  would be like this sort of general [TS]

  malaise over overcasting you like I [TS]

  wonder what's going on here and I mean [TS]

  you [TS]

  have access to probably like any query [TS]

  the table to see what the max version [TS]

  number is all 600 that seems big [TS]

  you know so maybe maybe you're on the [TS]

  right system uh after all maybe you your [TS]

  configure this is the best of all [TS]

  possible worlds for you respond to this [TS]

  week by audible go to audible.com for [TS]

  more than 250,000 audiobooks and spoken [TS]

  word audio products at a free 30-day [TS]

  trial today at audible.com / ATP if you [TS]

  want to listen to it audible has it you [TS]

  can listen to audiobooks from virtually [TS]

  every genre anytime anywhere on phones [TS]

  tablets computers ipod you still have an [TS]

  ipod even if you happen to have a kindle [TS]

  has a headphone jack a lot of the other [TS]

  models do those can also play audio [TS]

  books from audible audio books are great [TS]

  for flights long road trips even your [TS]

  daily commute and you might think even [TS]

  have time to read books i think that a [TS]

  lot but you'd be surprised how many [TS]

  audio books you can hear each year even [TS]

  if you only listen to and from work [TS]

  every day because that all adds up [TS]

  audiobooks bring books told life many of [TS]

  them are read by the author's themselves [TS]

  an extra dimension to the text you can [TS]

  take risks and try new authors and [TS]

  dramas without regret because audible [TS]

  offers their great listen guarantee if [TS]

  you start an audiobook and don't like it [TS]

  you can exchange it for another one for [TS]

  free there's no risk so you can see and [TS]

  listen for yourself when you begin your [TS]

  free 30-day trial your first audio book [TS]

  for free and there's no stress or [TS]

  obligation you can cancel your [TS]

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  250,000 audiobooks and spoken word audio [TS]

  products you will find what you're [TS]

  looking for with audible get a free [TS]

  30-day trial today by signing up at [TS]

  audible.com / ATP that's audible.com / [TS]

  ATP thanks to audible for sponsoring our [TS]

  show so we should talk quickly about [TS]

  quitter which is your new mac app and we [TS]

  have to say too much about it because I [TS]

  presume you're going to save a lot of [TS]

  this from to the radar but I feel like [TS]

  we should at least mention it and [TS]

  hopefully you had a least a couple [TS]

  things to say or at least recap what is [TS]

  so basically a few months back i I've [TS]

  read this blog post called automatic [TS]

  social discipline my idea was [TS]

  I've been struggling over the last few [TS]

  years to try to balance the time I spend [TS]

  on Twitter and other social like [TS]

  distractions from the time I spend [TS]

  working and because of the nature of [TS]

  what I do and the way I've chosen to go [TS]

  about my career and and how to promote [TS]

  my stuff I do kind of have to use [TS]

  Twitter and social tools on a [TS]

  semi-regular basis and even with [TS]

  something simple like when we start we [TS]

  start the live broadcast I tweet from [TS]

  art from the ATP account [TS]

  we're live now and we give a link and [TS]

  you know when I when I make new blog [TS]

  post i also tweet about them to promote [TS]

  them because that's where a lot of [TS]

  traffic coming from these days i have [TS]

  tried various times to just not have [TS]

  twitter apps installed it all on my on [TS]

  my desktop it ends up just not working i [TS]

  tried i can only use it on my phone or [TS]

  only using it like on a laptop that i [TS]

  keep you know off to the side that is my [TS]

  main computer i tried all sorts of [TS]

  stupid things like that and they never [TS]

  stick because there because the reality [TS]

  is i do have to use twitter on a [TS]

  semi-regular basis for my job as well as [TS]

  for enjoyment in life by far the most [TS]

  efficient way for me to use twitter is [TS]

  using Tweetbot on the mac by far [TS]

  like I i I'm so fast that i can go [TS]

  through so much it's the max so [TS]

  everything's kind of like this [TS]

  multitasking quick environment is very [TS]

  very efficient with that [TS]

  so if i'm going to be using Twitter for [TS]

  work it should be on the mac and it [TS]

  should be on my primary Mac that's just [TS]

  how it works for me it most efficiently [TS]

  the question is how do I manage that [TS]

  without spending so much time on Twitter [TS]

  all the time not ever getting any work [TS]

  done and the answer of course is [TS]

  self-control but i don't have enough of [TS]

  that when it comes to this so we have to [TS]

  start building access tools like four to [TS]

  solve many people self-control issues [TS]

  and other things like this is what we do [TS]

  right this is we try to have her and try [TS]

  to build self-control replacement tools [TS]

  for this assistance tools and and I [TS]

  started seeing this was a problem with [TS]

  twitter because i use the app called [TS]

  rescue time which is basically a like [TS]

  appt time tracking app it's in your [TS]

  menubar and it's either web service was [TS]

  a little bit creepy little little [TS]

  worried about that but it's your menu [TS]

  bar and watch [TS]

  choose what apps you're using and at [TS]

  times it and it categorizes things like [TS]

  you know work for this entertainment vs [TS]

  whatever and then every week it emails [TS]

  you a report saying this week you worked [TS]

  on your computer's 4x hours and you [TS]

  spent six hours in Xcode 5 hours and [TS]

  logic for hours and adobe audition and [TS]

  then like every week I was also seeing [TS]

  in four hours in tweet pot and who [TS]

  that's a lot of time spent sweet pot it [TS]

  started to add up over about a year I'm [TS]

  like you know this is really not [TS]

  comfortable like that I need to do [TS]

  something about this because i kept [TS]

  thinking I could feel like I want to [TS]

  thinking I could feel like I want to [TS]

  work better and use my time more [TS]

  effectively and get more done and [TS]

  everything begins email saying hey [TS]

  you're using Twitter you use twitter for [TS]

  six hours this week [TS]

  oh my god and then slap came around and [TS]

  made problem even worse because now [TS]

  slack slack is even worse for blending [TS]

  work and distraction because it's made [TS]

  for work communication it and it's so [TS]

  easy to just become like a constant [TS]

  drain of your attention and just [TS]

  constant like peppering all day of [TS]

  little tiny distractions [TS]

  anyway this is all I started seeing [TS]

  slack you know bubble up in the list as [TS]

  well and then all the sudden spending [TS]

  like six hours a day on slack and [TS]

  Twitter combined not a day six hours a [TS]

  week on like second Twitter and and it [TS]

  just it started becoming so many hours [TS]

  and just like my god this is like this [TS]

  is eating into all my productivity six [TS]

  hours eight hours [TS]

  this is this is terrible i have to think [TS]

  about this is as if you want to go with [TS]

  this this post called automatic [TS]

  specialist but i did was i I basically [TS]

  get wrote an apple script is scheduled [TS]

  it with launch d every 10 minutes it [TS]

  would run it would just check is [TS]

  Tweetbot the active app right this [TS]

  second [TS]

  if not quit the app and same thing with [TS]

  slack slack is the active app right now [TS]

  keep it otherwise kill it and that ended [TS]

  up being way too aggressive for slack [TS]

  because i do use slack oftentimes for [TS]

  work purposes in fact the majority of [TS]

  the time using seconds for work purposes [TS]

  actually so that like I I couldn't have [TS]

  slack be just quick constantly like [TS]

  because the way this work to it's like [TS]

  it was just checking every 10 minutes [TS]

  and saying are you active right now if [TS]

  not quit so oftentimes you'd be you know [TS]

  click on slack type something switched [TS]

  to another window and two seconds later [TS]

  slide disappears typically ok this is [TS]

  kind of unfortunate but same thing you [TS]

  know Twitter everything's ate it was [TS]

  just it was a little bit too dumb of a [TS]

  solution recently I'm i started making a [TS]

  mac app called Twitter and it's in the [TS]

  menu bar and because a native app has a [TS]

  way better way to do this rather than [TS]

  just like constantly pulling to see like [TS]

  what's the active app right now is that [TS]

  this quit you can actually observe the [TS]

  current workspace and you can eat [TS]

  there's no polling [TS]

  involved you get notified when the [TS]

  active window or the application changes [TS]

  and so that now I'm able to do things [TS]

  way more efficiently and way smarter or [TS]

  now i can i can have it [TS]

  watch for changes and for the list of [TS]

  apps that you want to quit after certain [TS]

  time intervals it can quit them [TS]

  not every 10 minutes checking to see if [TS]

  they're running and including [TS]

  immediately but it can start the timer [TS]

  when you click away from the app and [TS]

  then after a certain time where you [TS]

  don't click back to the app then it can [TS]

  fire the timer and quit them or also [TS]

  building out the option to hide them for [TS]

  slack because for me it's more efficient [TS]

  for the amount of slack so basically the [TS]

  mac app version of this is way better [TS]

  it also isn't an apple script that has [TS]

  to have a launch d command-line process [TS]

  to register and register it so it's also [TS]

  a lot more friendly for other people to [TS]

  use and for me to distribute as a thing [TS]

  people use the effect of running this [TS]

  app is it really does work it for me i [TS]

  have because I've been measuring the [TS]

  rescue time like i've been i've been [TS]

  using first that script and then a few [TS]

  weeks ago switching to this app using [TS]

  this for a while now and i have seen a [TS]

  reliable drop in my usage hours as [TS]

  reported rescuetime of of these social [TS]

  apps that I'm i keep forcibly quitting [TS]

  it also has the the interesting effect [TS]

  we had like it just makes Twitter's just [TS]

  seem unreliable like it's the effect is [TS]

  basically it seems like tweet budget [TS]

  scratches every few minutes so it kind [TS]

  of keeps it a little bit and check for [TS]

  me it's not this thing that's always [TS]

  there like there's never there's not [TS]

  always a new thing could be looking at [TS]

  also critically I said it so that these [TS]

  apps are not in my doc you're not [TS]

  running so that when they get force quit [TS]

  they're just gone there they're out of [TS]

  sight out of mind like you have to then [TS]

  explicitly think oh I want to go check [TS]

  twitter now and so what I'm able to do [TS]

  not only has has a total amount of time [TS]

  spent in these apps dropped noticeably [TS]

  probably by at least fifty percent if I [TS]

  can guess but i'm also finding that I'm [TS]

  now much more often having long [TS]

  productive spans because that was where [TS]

  where these apps really hurt is in the [TS]

  that like constant peppering of new [TS]

  stuff coming in every every [TS]

  minute every 30 seconds or something new [TS]

  to look at you constantly context [TS]

  switching back and forth both you know [TS]

  technically and mentally or context [TS]

  switching and that to me is just [TS]

  district destroys any kind of meaningful [TS]

  productivity i'm having on things like [TS]

  coding or editing the podcast or writing [TS]

  these things that just like I was having [TS]

  such a hard time staying focused on my [TS]

  work when these things just kept coming [TS]

  in on like a back our windows just [TS]

  always off to the side look for [TS]

  something new to read not reply dude [TS]

  it's like things were being funny [TS]

  whatever [TS]

  now these apps are so frequently just [TS]

  removed from view that I'm able to have [TS]

  these long productive spans where I can [TS]

  like code for three hours straight for [TS]

  our straight i can write an entire blog [TS]

  post and then open up Twitter after our [TS]

  publish it to go promote it it just it [TS]

  really has changed the way I work a lot [TS]

  and it also gave me an excuse to learn [TS]

  how to write stuff for the Mac because I [TS]

  really i've had a few little like you [TS]

  know apps for myself or toy apps or like [TS]

  you know kind of half-butted apps that [TS]

  were not all releasable but for the most [TS]

  part I really don't know how to make mac [TS]

  software because i don't have to make [TS]

  good mac software should say hey and so [TS]

  this was kind of a nice interim I've [TS]

  been wanting to learn it for a while and [TS]

  this is kind of a nice intro to to start [TS]

  that it's not in the app store because [TS]

  it can't be it can't be sandboxes [TS]

  sandbox apps can't quit other apps and [TS]

  it's fine just disturbing it's free it's [TS]

  just a zip file you look at my website [TS]

  it's kind of amazing to distribute [TS]

  software this way for somebody who's [TS]

  only ever really professionally work in [TS]

  the app store when we talked about this [TS]

  a few weeks back on the show I got the [TS]

  impression that pretty much nobody [TS]

  wanted this except me which is not [TS]

  unusual for things i make by the way I [TS]

  make all sorts of crazy stuff for myself [TS]

  that nobody else would ever want this I [TS]

  really thought was one of those things [TS]

  but it ends up i released it and it's [TS]

  gotten over 25,000 downloads and the end [TS]

  it's free i'm making off of it at least [TS]

  not yet who knows if I ever will but a [TS]

  lot of people at least want to try this [TS]

  and that's pretty cool i don't think it [TS]

  will ever become anything big and if I [TS]

  if I wanted to give it all my time maybe [TS]

  I could basically make it you know [TS]

  rescuetime replacement or something [TS]

  that but I don't think it's worth quite [TS]

  that much but it is really cool to just [TS]

  kind of see the other side's to to see [TS]

  what it's like having a mac app to see [TS]

  what Mac programming is like to a very [TS]

  small extent and to distribute apps [TS]

  directly that's kind of cool and i just [TS]

  am really happy that it works that I've [TS]

  actually solved this problem i had and [TS]

  you know i'm not perfect yet by any [TS]

  means but this is by far the most [TS]

  effective method that I've come up with [TS]

  yet for maintaining a healthy balance of [TS]

  distracting apps vs getting work done [TS]

  the app has two big things going for one [TS]

  free everyone loves fre right and second [TS]

  got the same thing going forward that [TS]

  like self-help books have like everyone [TS]

  is hungry feels the thing that you're [TS]

  talking about just like boy I wish I [TS]

  could be more productive and I was less [TS]

  distracted or whatever and like you said [TS]

  what want to just not be distracted well [TS]

  you know people need people want tools [TS]

  to help them with others like I've been [TS]

  trying to do it with just sort of [TS]

  willpower alone are trying to change my [TS]

  habits or turn our leader and has been [TS]

  working is there something I can do is [TS]

  there some system i can employ or better [TS]

  yet product i can buy or beg still [TS]

  product i can get for free that will [TS]

  help me along this and so yeah who [TS]

  doesn't like it [TS]

  who wouldn't download this app if people [TS]

  know you and I know you write software [TS]

  and everybody has that feeling that are [TS]

  particularly productive and you offer [TS]

  download for free click on it there you [TS]

  go you got it that offers a way to [TS]

  potentially help you are productive i [TS]

  bet a lot of people can track how many [TS]

  people find it useful and stick with it [TS]

  i don't know if you have any statistics [TS]

  on that but that is a like like a lot of [TS]

  self-help things some systems work for [TS]

  some people sometimes they don't work [TS]

  brother people who knows some since it's [TS]

  free i don't think you really care what [TS]

  the other but yeah like that I feel like [TS]

  the only way you can really turn this [TS]

  into a serious endeavor is to basically [TS]

  be better rescue time and I were you [TS]

  before you do that you probably talked [TS]

  to rescue some people to ask out their [TS]

  businesses going before you go and try [TS]

  to take it all because it could be that [TS]

  if you totally replace rescue time in [TS]

  the in the market you would still make [TS]

  no money because it's not a big market [TS]

  knows having the money thing is an [TS]

  interesting question i mean III don't [TS]

  know what it's like to sell mac software [TS]

  i'm still not doing that so I don't know [TS]

  what the market [TS]

  is I'm sure like any kind of software it [TS]

  probably depends a lot on what exactly [TS]

  you're selling I I have no idea [TS]

  rescue time I've haven't actually paid [TS]

  for their business model I is I think [TS]

  some kind of like premium service or [TS]

  something I don't know i've been using [TS]

  it for years and never give them a dime [TS]

  so whatever the business model is does [TS]

  not include me in it so maybe that's the [TS]

  problem i don't know i live not going to [TS]

  know what the money market is like on [TS]

  mac stuff unless I actually tried and I [TS]

  don't know if I'm ready to do that yet [TS]

  or what i would do that with necessarily [TS]

  but i do think it's interesting to [TS]

  consider and for whatever it's worth i [TS]

  don't i don't have like analytics [TS]

  running in the app but the app does [TS]

  include sparkle to check my server for [TS]

  updates which is the thing you have to [TS]

  worry about how does your app update [TS]

  itself when you're outside of the mac [TS]

  app store and so I have checked while [TS]

  you were talking there at this moment i [TS]

  was listening also don't work but I [TS]

  checked a secret talking and at this [TS]

  moment I have 27,000 download the zip [TS]

  file and 2500 IPS that have been [TS]

  checking the auto-update xml file so [TS]

  roughly a ten percent rate of people who [TS]

  are actually like running this app after [TS]

  downloading it which i think is actually [TS]

  pretty good [TS]

  I mean you know that that's that's what [TS]

  I would this roughly one would expect [TS]

  especially since you don't have one of [TS]

  those little disk images that opens that [TS]

  shows your app icon and arrow drawn the [TS]

  the window back showing it dragging into [TS]

  it is something to slash applications [TS]

  I mean you you laugh at that but like [TS]

  the mac one of the advantages of the mac [TS]

  app store is that you press a button in [TS]

  the mac app store and in theory and [TS]

  application appears in your application [TS]

  folder right there's no there's no other [TS]

  process whereas but that's also [TS]

  mitigated that's mitigated by the [TS]

  problem of like a all right click this [TS]

  app i bought it [TS]

  now where is it how do i launched a [TS]

  ground if people can find a lot of [TS]

  launch shorty lunch [TS]

  what is the thing called launchpad yeah [TS]

  it's in your dock by default to a [TS]

  regular people and if they just download [TS]

  it will be all sparkly and they should [TS]

  be able to find it but like what you're [TS]

  doing is best case scenario with the [TS]

  default settings they don't they click [TS]

  years and found safari it automatically [TS]

  unzips and what they end up is your [TS]

  application icon in their downloads [TS]

  folder if they even know how to get to [TS]

  your downloads folder is very good [TS]

  chance that if they came in five [TS]

  your application icon so just double [TS]

  click and run it from your downloads [TS]

  folder which will probably work fine [TS]

  with for your application unless you [TS]

  have specific code that says hey it [TS]

  looks like you've launched me from the [TS]

  Downloads folder would you like me to [TS]

  quit and put myself into the application [TS]

  folder we launched myself I do because [TS]

  you can't figure out how to install apps [TS]

  no this is actually an open-source thing [TS]

  that's like moved to application folder [TS]

  you know you probably seen a lot of apps [TS]

  that offer this [TS]

  yeah but this is all these are all these [TS]

  are all problems that are not part of [TS]

  the mac app store experience like that [TS]

  the auto updating which sparkled handled [TS]

  by the mac app store and the general [TS]

  problem of how do i quote unquote [TS]

  install a mac applications obviously [TS]

  anyone who knows anyone max this is not [TS]

  a problem at all but if you ever want to [TS]

  go to a broader market which yeah may [TS]

  not be like people who read your blog [TS]

  and your twitter feed and download your [TS]

  application because they know you always [TS]

  people probably know how to install [TS]

  applications but i can tell you in the [TS]

  general public anything that involves [TS]

  even an auto expanding zip file or disk [TS]

  image or where do you put the [TS]

  application and stuff like that it is [TS]

  but it is still one of one of the areas [TS]

  that I think it's underestimated the [TS]

  people don't talk about it much but [TS]

  these days but it's one of the huge [TS]

  advantages that iOS and iPhone apps and [TS]

  app stores have in generals like see app [TS]

  I want put finger on screen now happen [TS]

  now I have app tap that like that's it [TS]

  you know there is no mounting and [TS]

  unmounting speaking of the case and USB [TS]

  keys disk images there no zip files are [TS]

  no expanding there's no dragon thanks to [TS]

  folders is none of that stuff the mac [TS]

  app store is not as bad as zip files or [TS]

  dmg but it's still not as good as the [TS]

  iOS App Store and that that simple part [TS]

  that simple aspect of like how can we [TS]

  get more people to download and use more [TS]

  apps like you gotta get rid of the part [TS]

  where they have to quote unquote install [TS]

  it at all [TS]

  yeah i agree i mean that the whole [TS]

  system especially with DM geez I mean [TS]

  that's like the idea of like just the [TS]

  idea of a disk image is it such a geeky [TS]

  abstraction that is very confusing and [TS]

  tedious to manage for people like it's [TS]

  how that ever became the standard I have [TS]

  no idea this coverages are awesome [TS]

  technologically speaking there [TS]

  especially awesome in a classic mac OS [TS]

  days because you know i mean that like [TS]

  four texts every people disk images are [TS]

  an amazing convenience and a great thing [TS]

  but as a way as the way to distribute [TS]

  software is one of two major ways like [TS]

  in the u.s. tener it's like you've got [TS]

  your zip file that expands to a nap [TS]

  bundle is one way and then you've got [TS]

  your disk invention is the other way and [TS]

  then the mac app store is off to the [TS]

  side there and all both those systems [TS]

  have problems for novice users [TS]

  yeah it totally does this make you think [TS]

  any differently about some of those like [TS]

  tools that you've developed for yourself [TS]

  that are native mac apps does it make [TS]

  you think differently about perhaps [TS]

  releasing them for real [TS]

  it does yeah but you know I also i saw [TS]

  with quitter [TS]

  this is a very very simple app and even [TS]

  just getting it up to like a minimum [TS]

  level of quality that I would want to [TS]

  actually release it to the public was [TS]

  probably more work than it deserves like [TS]

  you know logically business wise guy if [TS]

  this was a distraction for me for the [TS]

  most part you know it might become a [TS]

  business someday but it isn't today and [TS]

  should just quit to quit xcode one was [TS]

  in the foremost app stop distracting you [TS]

  from important slacking Twitter work [TS]

  like oh there's totally a distraction [TS]

  I mean one of the things is like a few [TS]

  hours after I released quitter [TS]

  there were a few like kind of [TS]

  embarrassing little shortcomings and and [TS]

  bugs one of the biggest things was in [TS]

  the app I never explained the idea of [TS]

  quitting after after X minutes of what [TS]

  and a lot of people who downloaded it [TS]

  who didn't read the post very closely [TS]

  said well I site or after a half-hour [TS]

  didn't quit what happened and your app [TS]

  is broken once are useless right and so [TS]

  so you know there was like this this [TS]

  completely embarrassing oversight [TS]

  wherein the app it never said anything [TS]

  about quitting after what like so the [TS]

  answer is quitting after activity which [TS]

  is defined as not being the foreground [TS]

  application [TS]

  yeah yeah I wouldn't I wouldn't guess [TS]

  that's what an activity means i would [TS]

  get an activity means like the app isn't [TS]

  doing everything like hey quit my mail [TS]

  out but it was totally download email in [TS]

  the background [TS]

  nobody does not anymore but it would [TS]

  like some people have said like why like [TS]

  a quit itunes when it was playing music [TS]

  okay well that's yeah that's interesting [TS]

  but you know so the a better number of [TS]

  like and the other major shortcoming is [TS]

  the app itself it didn't [TS]

  what about screen or anything really to [TS]

  tell you like if you just if you just [TS]

  forgot about where you got this app and [TS]

  a few months later you saw this app you [TS]

  launch it [TS]

  you have no idea where it came from how [TS]

  to get you know more information about [TS]

  it like who made it look there's like [TS]

  not there is no information in the app [TS]

  about the app there [TS]

  the combination of a couple of those [TS]

  like minor problem you can also enter [TS]

  negative x that was fun [TS]

  so they can pick up like you just minor [TS]

  polish flaws basically like you know [TS]

  areas in which i did not make a [TS]

  releasable quality app but released [TS]

  anyway I wanted to issue a quick update [TS]

  so I fixed all the problems tested it [TS]

  with all sorts of unit tests and [TS]

  integration tests and parking lot test [TS]

  and then I just put the new zip file on [TS]

  my server and regenerated the sparkle [TS]

  manifest look I have a script to do in [TS]

  one command and it was released [TS]

  immediately to everyone [TS]

  neat huh nobody had to approve it it [TS]

  didn't have to sit around and wait four [TS]

  days i knew that in the really worst [TS]

  case scenario if I really botched things [TS]

  in this update i could just issue [TS]

  another one [TS]

  it was kind of amazing it's okay and of [TS]

  course like every mac programmer is like [TS]

  a stupid iOS fools like they don't they [TS]

  don't know what they're missing and yet [TS]

  now I now i know what i'm missing and so [TS]

  it's kind of intoxicating and I can see [TS]

  where I can see where it could be [TS]

  dangerous but the appeal to me of just [TS]

  distributing apps directly to people [TS]

  without this giant middle man that is [TS]

  really opinionated and picky and slow is [TS]

  very appealing a number of levels i [TS]

  think the experience of doing this first [TS]

  of all I you know I have seen like I've [TS]

  seen just enough of what it's like to [TS]

  develop mac app like with application [TS]

  everything just enough of it to know it [TS]

  would take me a long time to become an [TS]

  expert at it and that it's not easy and [TS]

  there's lots of things to think about [TS]

  and consider it also showed me that's [TS]

  possible and that there is some kind of [TS]

  market here i don't know i don't know [TS]

  how big the market is for all the stuff [TS]

  i want to make but there is a market [TS]

  there and the idea of direct access to [TS]

  your customers is so [TS]

  threshing and foreign to me i am [TS]

  definitely going to be more likely to [TS]

  try to make more and more maps in the [TS]

  future and I not who knows what if [TS]

  anything will actually come out of that [TS]

  feeling to the public [TS]

  you know eventually but i'm certainly [TS]

  interested i'm much more likely to try [TS]

  it now than I was before [TS]

  wait to learn you can charge ninety-nine [TS]

  dollars for him yeah but then you have [TS]

  to answer support email do you a good [TS]

  question i don't know what to think [TS]

  outside the box $99 no support if anyone [TS]

  can pull it off it's marco our final [TS]

  sponsor tonight is hover hover is the [TS]

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  and that person can help you there's no [TS]

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  departments know going through robot [TS]

  menus you just call them and a person [TS]

  picks up the way things used to be at [TS]

  every business hover is like that today [TS]

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  available options across all of the many [TS]

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  diamonds got plumbing there are so many [TS]

  domain names now hover can search all [TS]

  them for you now if you were ever able [TS]

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  other places this can be an unpleasant [TS]

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  having the wool over your eyes might [TS]

  have these weird upsells that you didn't [TS]

  think you needed but they charge you [TS]

  extra for hover does not believe in this [TS]

  stuff and hover is very well designed [TS]

  very easy-to-use they don't do heavy [TS]

  handed up selling of weird packages and [TS]

  privacy things now they give you what [TS]

  you need at the base price [TS]

  they even offer something called Valley [TS]

  transfer service which is really cool if [TS]

  you have name somewhere else that you [TS]

  want to migrate to hover you can do it [TS]

  yourself it's fine it's a little bit [TS]

  tedious and error-prone though so if you [TS]

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  email therefore they have all sorts of [TS]

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  that's a everything which I believe is a [TS]

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  thank you very much to hover for [TS]

  sponsoring our show so did you guys hear [TS]

  that Apple's doomed the doomed I tell [TS]

  you know they're fine they're going to [TS]

  be fighting to keep generating tons of [TS]

  money who cares really good Wall Street [TS]

  cares i totally get why Wall Street [TS]

  cares about Apple's financial [TS]

  performance because that's their job at [TS]

  being its wall street's job to care [TS]

  about quarterly earnings and stuff as an [TS]

  Apple user and even as an apple [TS]

  developer i honestly don't care it's [TS]

  worth hearing in broad strokes of the [TS]

  ipads down everything's kind of second [TS]

  for a quarter [TS]

  yeah everything sags for a year let me [TS]

  know that might be more interesting but [TS]

  like to have like this little quarterly [TS]

  updates of who will this year this [TS]

  quarter was a little bit worse than last [TS]

  year this quarter and that that that [TS]

  particular pattern hasn't happened in a [TS]

  long time even though they made billions [TS]

  of dollars like okay well it's the kind [TS]

  of thing that if you're an analyst or if [TS]

  you're the kind of person who reads [TS]

  analysts this matters to you but if you [TS]

  are a user or developer or fan i just [TS]

  don't see how to find stuff matters [TS]

  well I think Apple reaction to the [TS]

  finance stuff might better like not so [TS]

  much the results themselves of what [TS]

  apple says about them like you know [TS]

  that's why wasn't there any calls or [TS]

  read transcription or whatever is yeah [TS]

  you want to get the news in the news is [TS]

  you know trends are continuing in there [TS]

  no surprise musical example gives [TS]

  guidance on its on what it thinks its [TS]

  financial results are gonna be next [TS]

  quarter and the next quarter comes and [TS]

  thus far they pretty much been within [TS]

  their guides they give a range like well [TS]

  we expect low of this and I of that and [TS]

  they land somewhere in the middle of it [TS]

  and people still freaked out about Wall [TS]

  Street so for example but whatever like [TS]

  it's not it's not sharing but what apple [TS]

  says during those calls to make for the [TS]

  most part but apples trying to during [TS]

  these causes too if something seems bad [TS]

  apple says something to make it seem not [TS]

  so bad because that ball doesn't like it [TS]

  when their stock price goes down right [TS]

  and if things are good Apple trumpets [TS]

  that they're good and tell you why [TS]

  they're good and how amazing it is and [TS]

  you know how proud they are baba and [TS]

  that's the more interesting part of [TS]

  earnings is how the company reacts and [TS]

  this this recent one end in the lead-up [TS]

  to this recent set of results [TS]

  the thing I've been noticing about Apple [TS]

  is the emphasis on their services [TS]

  business of talking about it you know [TS]

  every chance they get and during the [TS]

  earrings called emphasize that as a [TS]

  growth you know it as the part of the [TS]

  business that's growing and doing well [TS]

  and that that bothers me a little bit be [TS]

  well it bothers me and it could be good [TS]

  thing first let's say the optimistic [TS]

  side could be good thing in that all [TS]

  right services business is growing and [TS]

  apple you know what is the good news [TS]

  Apple well iphone sales are down your [TS]

  year but they're still doing really well [TS]

  but if you want a story about something [TS]

  is growing hey we've got things that are [TS]

  going to but that's what everyone's [TS]

  always looking for you know where is the [TS]

  gross going to come from next doesn't [TS]

  seem like it's going to be the apple [TS]

  watch at least not for a little while or [TS]

  wearables or whatever but services are [TS]

  growing [TS]

  that's good annapolis emphasize that and [TS]

  maybe by emphasizing services and by [TS]

  making more money from it will make [TS]

  apple invest more in it because if they [TS]

  see that as their next big growth [TS]

  opportunity they will you know they were [TS]

  investing themselves and try to continue [TS]

  to make it grow and that will be better [TS]

  because historically speaking Apple [TS]

  services and nothing great [TS]

  on the flip side the pessimistic side I [TS]

  feel like Apple can be proud of the [TS]

  growth of its services segment but also [TS]

  not really getting any better its [TS]

  services like I don't know if you can [TS]

  turn apple into a services company they [TS]

  seem so far from we talked to her for [TS]

  them you know the cloud kid vs you know [TS]

  Microsoft Azure or AWS or any other [TS]

  things they just don't seem like they [TS]

  understand what it takes to be really [TS]

  great there and if that's going to be [TS]

  coming important part of the business [TS]

  they need to get way better at it and it [TS]

  seemed instead of what it seems to me as [TS]

  they they're finding ways to make more [TS]

  money from their existing customers [TS]

  and that's growing their quote unquote [TS]

  services revenue hey we have all these [TS]

  people who buy these devices that they [TS]

  love can we find more ways to monetize [TS]

  them which i guess is fine as far as [TS]

  business models go even though it's kind [TS]

  of been the inverse of what it's always [TS]

  been which is our hardware and the [TS]

  services just make a hardware more [TS]

  attractive now it's like all those [TS]

  people who have our hardware there are [TS]

  potential source of service revenue so [TS]

  we should make services for them but [TS]

  when i look at the services they offer i [TS]

  don't feel like for the most part [TS]

  they're best-in-class in any category [TS]

  you know and and if you're going to be [TS]

  if your next big growth opportunities of [TS]

  the services company kinda way way [TS]

  better at services and I don't see I [TS]

  mean maybe that's going on internally [TS]

  but externally Apple saying we love [TS]

  services we have a lot of customers we [TS]

  found we know we found ways to get money [TS]

  from them isn't that great and I think [TS]

  no that's does not really great like I [TS]

  don't monetizing your existing the [TS]

  existing customers of your hardware that [TS]

  we all love and even your operating [TS]

  systems that we all love you trying to [TS]

  make them pay for services that we [TS]

  tolerate or accept because of platform [TS]

  integration that doesn't make me feel [TS]

  particularly good about apple or its [TS]

  services so i really hope my first [TS]

  scenario is what happens that services [TS]

  end up being a growth business that [TS]

  Apple gets much much better at I mean [TS]

  there's also option number three this [TS]

  might have just been what they said to [TS]

  be spin on these calls that they knew [TS]

  were going to be down in like hardware [TS]

  sales this month has been something they [TS]

  told Wall Street to just kind of [TS]

  spinning and frame it in a better way to [TS]

  try to soften the blow a little bit and [TS]

  try to appear they have like major you [TS]

  know growth opportunities in the future [TS]

  in another area let's face it at your [TS]

  right [TS]

  apple is not really much of a services [TS]

  company they are primarily a hardware [TS]

  company [TS]

  hey I mean applicate local applications [TS]

  operating systems platforms hardware but [TS]

  then services i feel like is that they [TS]

  have not been strong and I account that [TS]

  is separate from hey how good is the mac [TS]

  operating system how good are the [TS]

  applications available for your platform [TS]

  right but so you know [TS]

  option one as you said it's an option [TS]

  one is like Apple actually makes itself [TS]

  a really big services business option [TS]

  two is they just kind of tighten the [TS]

  screws and try to extract more money out [TS]

  of us in ways that are not so great [TS]

  option three is [TS]

  they kind of just keep doing what [TS]

  they've been doing and that was just [TS]

  spin on the call to soften the blow of [TS]

  that results all three of them I think I [TS]

  probably equally likely [TS]

  well but the reason that I don't think [TS]

  it's just been for this particular [TS]

  announcement is because the services [TS]

  pushes not just this quarter like Apple [TS]

  music the at the apple TV 2 apple TV [TS]

  subscription business that they've been [TS]

  trying reportedly you know rumored to be [TS]

  trying to get off the ground forever and [TS]

  just couldn't do and they launched the [TS]

  hardware without it like those are two [TS]

  pretty potentially pretty big [TS]

  initiatives that predate the you know a [TS]

  dip an iphone sales year-over-year you [TS]

  know whatever who cares but like growth [TS]

  has been slowing in there other [TS]

  businesses and I think that watching [TS]

  everything doesn't have to find another [TS]

  big hardware product they can take that [TS]

  you know and then the ipad efforts like [TS]

  can we find the next big hardware [TS]

  product line it's going to take off but [TS]

  the services push I feel like it's been [TS]

  brewing even longer especially since [TS]

  eServices take a long time to get off [TS]

  the ground and the rumored revamp about [TS]

  music at WWDC just shows like they're [TS]

  serious about like you know recurring [TS]

  revenue for network services for people [TS]

  who own our devices [TS]

  I mean you can't even count iCloud and [TS]

  all the the storage you know charges [TS]

  very you know I cloud storage for your [TS]

  backups and bright cloud drive like this [TS]

  has been a long time building like that [TS]

  service didn't come out of nowhere [TS]

  they've been slowly growing and apple [TS]

  has been inventing new ways for you to [TS]

  regularly give money to apple for the [TS]

  privilege of using their services that [TS]

  integrate with the hard way that you [TS]

  already bought from them and I don't see [TS]

  the number of those services going down [TS]

  if anything like again the apple the [TS]

  Apple TV 2 i'm counting email doesn't [TS]

  actually exist just because there's been [TS]

  so much smoke around that I feel like if [TS]

  Apple could have got the content deals [TS]

  done in a way that they thought made an [TS]

  attractive product that would have [TS]

  launched a long time ago just seems like [TS]

  we can't get the deals done but Apple [TS]

  music is their most serious services [TS]

  offer you no effort to date and as a lot [TS]

  of articles to point out like for the [TS]

  net for the size of the installed base [TS]

  that Apple has four people who own apple [TS]

  devices listen to music the penetration [TS]

  about music is not been great like maybe [TS]

  they were late with that because Spotify [TS]

  has got too much of a a foothold in that [TS]

  market or whatever it could be the same [TS]

  thing with television maybe the two late [TS]

  in netflix cuts and Netflix HBO and hulu [TS]

  and everything [TS]

  also got too much of a football than [TS]

  that but it seems like they're there is [TS]

  a real serious multi-year effort in size [TS]

  Apple to maybe have the same way we're [TS]

  thinking services like a like Dropbox or [TS]

  whatever but 22 it sent sounds bad to [TS]

  say to monetize their customer base but [TS]

  they basically to offer network services [TS]

  to their customers because that is a [TS]

  very large and growing business you know [TS]

  I will provide you music or video or [TS]

  some other kind of entertainment you [TS]

  know what will give you content instead [TS]

  of you buying each one of these little [TS]

  items you just pay a subscription fee [TS]

  and we will deliver it to you on all [TS]

  your devices and there's lots of those [TS]

  businesses and apple I think wants to be [TS]

  one of those businesses but thus far has [TS]

  just kind of been a middle-of-the-pack [TS]

  also-ran and everyone that centered i [TS]

  think of Apple really wants to become a [TS]

  more serious services company i think [TS]

  they have shown through the results [TS]

  through their actions that their current [TS]

  setup is just bad at that it seems to me [TS]

  that they would have to somehow [TS]

  dramatically restructure the part of the [TS]

  organization that does services maybe [TS]

  that's something as dramatic as [TS]

  replacing Eddy Cue maybe it's something [TS]

  less dramatic like just giving you know [TS]

  having somebody else take some of those [TS]

  things out of the organization and make [TS]

  a new like services that kind of like [TS]

  what just happened with phil schiller [TS]

  the app store like something has to [TS]

  change their because whatever they have [TS]

  now just doesn't work that well to [TS]

  achieve those goals or they could [TS]

  yeah I was trying to think they could [TS]

  have a similar service but like this is [TS]

  something i had in the the potential [TS]

  topic notes for many months and just [TS]

  been slowly push down but it was an [TS]

  article Jason L wrote a while ago about [TS]

  the idea of Apple launching a netflix [TS]

  style video service in which they would [TS]

  fund original content [TS]

  you know it seems so it seems kind of [TS]

  weird way back when it's like Netflix [TS]

  will let you stream the movies and TV [TS]

  shows you like on your television or [TS]

  computer isn't that great and then it [TS]

  was like the necklace is going to make [TS]

  their own show starring kevin spacey and [TS]

  they're going to fund it themselves or [TS]

  how many million dollars netflix doesn't [TS]

  make shows netflix just gives me the [TS]

  shows that other people have already [TS]

  made [TS]

  why would netflix make a show and it [TS]

  seemed absurd but [TS]

  you know fast forward a few years and [TS]

  it's not so absurd and netflix and [TS]

  amazon pay for shows to be made and then [TS]

  they stream them exclusively on their [TS]

  surfaces and HP of course came to the [TS]

  other direction where they paid you know [TS]

  even even HBO used to be just home box [TS]

  office here to watch movies other people [TS]

  made an HBO HBO start paying for its own [TS]

  content that you don't get HBO and then [TS]

  HBO decided to have a service that [TS]

  eventually divorced in the cable [TS]

  companies all these other companies are [TS]

  getting into the defunding the creative [TS]

  services and Jason's articles like why [TS]

  you know why wouldn't that be something [TS]

  that apple would want to get into the [TS]

  obvious answer is it you know Apple is [TS]

  currently in the business of selling [TS]

  other people's content apple doesn't [TS]

  make music based on other people's music [TS]

  apple doesn't make movies and television [TS]

  shows they sell other people's tell the [TS]

  movies and television shows and give the [TS]

  money to the people who made them and [TS]

  they're just the middleman type of thing [TS]

  but all those other companies that [TS]

  described started out and a similar [TS]

  place and eventually came to make their [TS]

  own content and it could be that if you [TS]

  want to be a successful in this video [TS]

  service for example did again table [TS]

  stakes is by the way you also have to [TS]

  have some exclusive content and the only [TS]

  way you can the best way to get [TS]

  exclusive content is to find it yourself [TS]

  Apple's got tons of money and [TS]

  connections to people in the [TS]

  entertainment industry [TS]

  why can't they find their own you know [TS]

  orange is the new black house of cards [TS]

  or whatever and have it exclusively [TS]

  available on a theoretical subscription [TS]

  apple TV service is that the only way [TS]

  that they could ever be a serious player [TS]

  in the market video other than being [TS]

  simply a platform for the netflix app [TS]

  platform for the hulu a platform for the [TS]

  HBO Go app if that's what they want to [TS]

  be fine but i don't know if that is the [TS]

  real growth opportunity they think it is [TS]

  and I think of simple services even [TS]

  something like Netflix and I think about [TS]

  netflix does like if you like this you [TS]

  might like that and just the basic you [TS]

  know polish of the application of [TS]

  automatically playing the next episode [TS]

  and keeping track of where you left off [TS]

  and everything even that I feel like is [TS]

  above the degree of difficulty than [TS]

  apple can handle based on are you know [TS]

  past episodes to talk about simply [TS]

  trying to watch a season of television [TS]

  apple TV and the difficulty of [TS]

  navigating to what the next show is [TS]

  going to be in everything [TS]

  I just don't feel like apples up to it [TS]

  but one of the things apple has that [TS]

  other companies don't is a humongous [TS]

  pile of cash and one of the things that [TS]

  humongous pile of cash can buy you if [TS]

  you are smart and know the right people [TS]

  is original creative content whether [TS]

  they be television movies or I suppose [TS]

  even music but if button like I said at [TS]

  the beginning of all this the big issue [TS]

  is how r do those other companies that [TS]

  sell music or television shows movies [TS]

  through your services feel about you [TS]

  making movies or television or yeah they [TS]

  probably don't like that very much and [TS]

  so maybe Apple would never do anything [TS]

  to sort of become non-neutral in that [TS]

  war but and as far as that hasn't [TS]

  happened in music like I don't respond [TS]

  defies funding its own music music and [TS]

  you know starting his own record label [TS]

  and getting its own artist and all that [TS]

  stuff but in the video around it's [TS]

  happening and I don't know if it's [TS]

  helping or hurting ever like Netflix is [TS]

  catalog has been shrinking I have no [TS]

  idea if there's any correlation between [TS]

  the making original content but it [TS]

  definitely makes the relationship more [TS]

  complicated Spotify doesn't have [TS]

  original artists but it does Commission [TS]

  original performances I figure out there [TS]

  the Spotify sessions is i believe it's [TS]

  called I to does that too by the way [TS]

  yeah you're right and they'll have [TS]

  artists come in and do a performance [TS]

  that's exclusive to Spotify or you're [TS]

  right mark our itunes not exactly you're [TS]

  talking about John but not too far away [TS]

  either [TS]

  yeah i think what we've seen from the [TS]

  streaming services of both for video [TS]

  stuff and and music stuff that exclusive [TS]

  content is what drives people to go [TS]

  subscribe to these things for the most [TS]

  part like Netflix was kind of like for a [TS]

  while before had much original stuff [TS]

  network is kinda like the [TS]

  bargain-basement like and it was one of [TS]

  the first big video streamers but the [TS]

  reason why people get netflix now [TS]

  especially over something else that [TS]

  might do something you know kind of [TS]

  similar one of the biggest reasons they [TS]

  get netflix now is for the original [TS]

  content you know amazon prime video one [TS]

  of the reasons people want to watch that [TS]

  is because of stuff they have their that [TS]

  you can't watch in other places also [TS]

  because a lot of times you're getting it [TS]

  for free with your free fast shipping [TS]

  thing but you know I think an HBO of [TS]

  course the United part of the best [TS]

  example where like people paying for HBO [TS]

  which everyone is it go now [TS]

  I don't know one of the HBO things [TS]

  people paying for doing it not to get [TS]

  some kind of movie that HP [TS]

  so let's see for a few weeks it's know [TS]

  if they're doing it for the original [TS]

  content so I think if Apple is serious [TS]

  about getting into that kind of business [TS]

  I would say that in if anything the [TS]

  market is showing that Apple needs [TS]

  original content to really succeed there [TS]

  yeah I think of the the I didn't watch [TS]

  amazon video at all and i have we have [TS]

  amazon prime I could have been watching [TS]

  anything it was like free for prime [TS]

  video people the only reason I started [TS]

  watching it was a man in the high castle [TS]

  which was original content for amazon I [TS]

  I suppose there are many shows that i [TS]

  could have watched on amazon streaming [TS]

  that I also had available on netflix [TS]

  streaming you know just like the shows [TS]

  that everybody has their the movies that [TS]

  everybody has but you kind of get into a [TS]

  habit like my habit tends to be my first [TS]

  go-to for like where's his movie stream [TS]

  you're free i go to netflix and only [TS]

  think about Amazon tangentially but [TS]

  original content is what property to us [TS]

  they already pay for HBO for my [TS]

  television but if i didn't i would [TS]

  definitely pay for HBO now to see Game [TS]

  of Thrones just for that one show i have [TS]

  no idea what the hell else you know I or [TS]

  whatever shoulder-width Deadwood in the [TS]

  past the sopranos or whatever [TS]

  original content is a huge driver though [TS]

  it still remains a question whether [TS]

  Apple has to be in the content business [TS]

  to be viable because I got apple TV has [TS]

  apps for all the services we just listed [TS]

  i just i'm not sure how much money Apple [TS]

  seized from that it may give you know [TS]

  all these things like fine we'll make [TS]

  people sign up for HBO outside of apple [TS]

  TV so we don't have to pay you thirty [TS]

  percent or whatever but you know people [TS]

  will buy an Apple TV but that's the [TS]

  apple TV that is a cheap device with [TS]

  some fairly slim margins in the grand [TS]

  scheme of things and once you buy one [TS]

  you don't have a bigger to replace it [TS]

  meanwhile we're all paying you know 10 [TS]

  20 bucks a month to all these different [TS]

  services to get this video content I [TS]

  feel like Apple would be expected their [TS]

  services business they would be more [TS]

  happy getting a monthly a small amount [TS]

  of money from customers rather than you [TS]

  buying a hundred fifty dollar apple TV [TS]

  once every three years when the other [TS]

  problem is even if they do this and [TS]

  succeed relative to the growth that [TS]

  they're trying to make up for and [TS]

  hardware which isn't that much money [TS]

  yeah well that's that that's apples [TS]

  problem you know that the bottom line [TS]

  problem is is there anything that's ever [TS]

  going to be as big as the iphone because [TS]

  so many I mean and again [TS]

  tim cook pointed this out of the other [TS]

  thing he was spitting on the call which [TS]

  is look I phones not done like yeah you [TS]

  know almost every person in the world [TS]

  who can afford a smartphone as one but [TS]

  not really because people still using [TS]

  dumb phones and we only have like forty [TS]

  percent market share so we have a [TS]

  60-percent that we can grow into it just [TS]

  I think everyone feels like that the the [TS]

  the battle lines have been drawn in the [TS]

  front so kind of settled and it's like [TS]

  yeah yeah you're right you don't even [TS]

  have you no more a majority market share [TS]

  but we feel like you're never gonna have [TS]

  a majority market share so unless you [TS]

  can suddenly start selling iphones to [TS]

  you know you know billion people in [TS]

  India who previously you couldn't sell [TS]

  them to or the middle class in China you [TS]

  know increasingly all these things that [TS]

  right here's how we can sell more [TS]

  iphones but it seems like there's a lot [TS]

  of pessimism about the potential growth [TS]

  both of the overall smartphone market [TS]

  you know in the short term anyway and in [TS]

  apples ability to get more of that [TS]

  market so everyone is looking for the [TS]

  next thing what else can you sell that [TS]

  will make you iphone kind of money or [TS]

  half iphone kind of money or quarter [TS]

  iphone kind of money again I think [TS]

  wearables is a possible answer but the [TS]

  apple watch is currently not a concrete [TS]

  implementation of that possible answer [TS]

  because that whatever category they lump [TS]

  it into other but yeah but it's not you [TS]

  know it's not a second the world on fire [TS]

  and the mac and ipad don't look like [TS]

  they are on growth trajectories to be [TS]

  the next iPhones either maybe cars will [TS]

  be I don't know [TS]

  even then it's like if you'd like if you [TS]

  look at the market caps for like big car [TS]

  companies like it it's the like Apple is [TS]

  Apple has gotten so big and so [TS]

  successful and the and the smartphone [TS]

  has been such a revolution that was [TS]

  accelerated both in in speed and [TS]

  ubiquity and in profitability by a [TS]

  number of weird factors that like you [TS]

  know the way like people weren't really [TS]

  paying their direct prices and so many [TS]

  markets and the upgrade cycle and how [TS]

  many people need that much as so many [TS]

  people like the spread on the whole [TS]

  world how quickly it happened I mean the [TS]

  smartphone that was such a combination [TS]

  of fairly unique factors that it is [TS]

  unlikely during our lifetimes that we [TS]

  will see any other device that allows [TS]

  that level of insane fast [TS]

  growth and profitability that's it's [TS]

  probably not gonna happen again [TS]

  that's not to say there isn't any other [TS]

  area of growth but that I don't think [TS]

  there will be something that will [TS]

  provide quite this level and [TS]

  explosiveness of it they don't need one [TS]

  thing like a minute right there it seems [TS]

  like they're trying to do you know in [TS]

  bits and pieces diversification like [TS]

  they don't want to be the iphone company [TS]

  so if iPhone slows down you have a hedge [TS]

  against that right yeah and if your head [TS]

  is not one other product maybe it's for [TS]

  other products that together make up an [TS]

  iphone sized lump and that the iphone [TS]

  decreases if you could be ransoming [TS]

  those up at the same time you still say [TS]

  above water like it though you look at [TS]

  all the little graph you can see as you [TS]

  know as one thing rose to prominence and [TS]

  then faded something else came from out [TS]

  of nowhere to rise to prominence then [TS]

  fade and something else comes out of [TS]

  nowhere and as if the iphone is if not [TS]

  fading that at least leveling off you [TS]

  may need a bunch of other lines to come [TS]

  and together some up to something looks [TS]

  like a reasonable head because you don't [TS]

  want to be a company where like [TS]

  ninety-five percent of your revenues [TS]

  coming from one product line and apples [TS]

  not a figure with the iphone is this but [TS]

  I think it's like 60 ish somebody better [TS]

  center something like that would still [TS]

  pretty good in the grand scheme of [TS]

  things but you gotta get one of those [TS]

  other little pie wedges and the other [TS]

  forty percent to be on a reasonable [TS]

  growth trajectory because i think that [TS]

  iphone will keep growing like more [TS]

  people will be able to afford [TS]

  smartphones the price of the product [TS]

  will eventually go down until let people [TS]

  more people for that more people will be [TS]

  entering the middle class and if Apple [TS]

  is lucky we'll be able to call a little [TS]

  bit more market share percentage point [TS]

  here and there from its competitors so [TS]

  it's not like the iphone is done done [TS]

  but uh you know that the giant a rocket [TS]

  sled ride to the the top of the the [TS]

  charges probably in the past with the [TS]

  iphone one of the quick thing i do want [TS]

  to take on this topic before we wrap up [TS]

  you know we were kind of basing this on [TS]

  the idea that you know apple right now [TS]

  is really bad it web services or we're [TS]

  not seeing them finding these make sure [TS]

  the growth areas quite yet and maybe [TS]

  they'll do a car but whatever I i think [TS]

  it's worth pointing out that you know [TS]

  companies can change and companies can [TS]

  gain new expertise years ago before [TS]

  apple launched the iphone the idea that [TS]

  apple would have the the in-house [TS]

  expertise [TS]

  to make a phone to make a cell phone all [TS]

  the creases like the baseband has to go [TS]

  into that and then even like the idea [TS]

  they'd be making their own processors or [TS]

  these design their own processors like [TS]

  these are like the kinds of things that [TS]

  before Apple really set their mind to [TS]

  doing it they couldn't do and you would [TS]

  think at the time it would be hard to [TS]

  see up half they would get there but [TS]

  because they really put their mind to it [TS]

  they they really made it a priority they [TS]

  funded it they gave it time to get these [TS]

  things you know that the talent and the [TS]

  space to mature and the funds required [TS]

  to develop these things over time they [TS]

  were able to become to develop expertise [TS]

  in these other areas that they didn't [TS]

  have yet services could be one of those [TS]

  areas they just have to do that process [TS]

  they have to recognize that it's a [TS]

  problem they don't do well now and then [TS]

  invest in it make changes invest money [TS]

  invest time get the right talent give [TS]

  them space to grow give them the space [TS]

  to operate Givens you know give them [TS]

  what they need to develop that talent [TS]

  house and to become great house [TS]

  the main reason we haven't seen that yet [TS]

  from apple is that there doesn't seem to [TS]

  be much opinion in in the top-ranked [TS]

  apple that anything in the way to do [TS]

  they do services really needs to change [TS]

  at least we're not seeing it [TS]

  yeah I think they're already good at it [TS]

  I think they're already okay at like [TS]

  we've been doing that for years it's not [TS]

  like a phone where we know we've never [TS]

  made a phone before boy you better be [TS]

  really better bear down and like work on [TS]

  this over like now we've been doing [TS]

  service like this and for ages i mean [TS]

  remember he world wasn't a great like we [TS]

  we've done all these great things uh we [TS]

  just need to get a little bit better [TS]

  like it's just a matter of tweaking [TS]

  whereas like I think you're right the [TS]

  mindset going into a phone was kind of [TS]

  exactly what you know that the palm guy [TS]

  said like the computer guys are just [TS]

  gonna walk in Apple's like we don't know [TS]

  anything about making phones i mean we [TS]

  make computer devices and smartphones [TS]

  are kind of computers but like you said [TS]

  we've never been in the phone market [TS]

  also we really better you know I go head [TS]

  down on this and figure it out and work [TS]

  really hard on it it would almost be [TS]

  better if you could like white ball [TS]

  history of Apple services from the earth [TS]

  and just say starting from today pretend [TS]

  you've got these iphones and [TS]

  I was you know always iOS devices out [TS]

  there and Max and everything but you've [TS]

  never made a network service before and [TS]

  you have all these billions of dollars [TS]

  make one and you know i think a lot of [TS]

  the iCloud revolution and cloud can [TS]

  everything has been a step in the right [TS]

  direction i still feel like because [TS]

  they're coming from a position of of [TS]

  okay and no they're not they're not [TS]

  coming from a position of weakness as [TS]

  far as they're concerned that kind of [TS]

  reserve strength like we're okay right [TS]

  it's not great maybe mobileme was kind [TS]

  of crappy but all we do is just change a [TS]

  few things and it will be great and I [TS]

  just you know from my perspective on the [TS]

  outside and seeing other companies that [TS]

  do similar things I think they're [TS]

  they're far from average I feel like [TS]

  there's this huge weaknesses that are [TS]

  not really that don't seem to be [TS]

  resulting in the kind of radical change [TS]

  that I feel like is it is necessary to [TS]

  just get on the same playing field [TS]

  everybody else is doing the same saw [TS]

  same stuff [TS]

  alright thanks a lot 23 sponsor this [TS]

  week Casper audible.com and hover and we [TS]

  will see you next week [TS]

  now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

  mean to begin as it was accidental [TS]

  is accidental John research Marco in kc [TS]

  wouldn't let him because it was [TS]

  accidentally was accidental and you can [TS]

  find the show know today [TS]

  DP die and if your twitter you can [TS]

  follow them [TS]

  yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

  co-pay rm20 Marco Arment and our AC at [TS]

  Syracuse it [TS]

  don't even talk about table its look so [TS]

  apple bottom Tendo now we'll save it for [TS]

  next week it's fine i think we need to [TS]

  talk about bumper sounds anybody [TS]

  remember t-bone next week [TS]

  yeah i remember our or whatever i'm [TS]

  getting hacked [TS]

  yeah what's that about yeah what is that [TS]

  about it happens happens to people [TS]

  happens like my my mother is usually on [TS]

  the opposite side of the spectrum [TS]

  constantly messaging me or emailing me [TS]

  are set for any messages for saying i [TS]

  got this message or text or email or [TS]

  whatever and it says this should I trust [TS]

  it is this a real thing is a scam [TS]

  what should i do i do anything and [TS]

  usually the answer is you know just [TS]

  delete it [TS]

  it's a scam you're right just deleted or [TS]

  like no that's legitimate email from [TS]

  apple or that's a legitimate receipt for [TS]

  something you bought like but always a [TS]

  erring on the side of just asking like [TS]

  if you're not sure what this thing is [TS]

  you're looking at ask when your computer [TS]

  energy children [TS]

  what's the deal with this is real is it [TS]

  not real and all you know doesn't take [TS]

  much faster just ask and the answer is [TS]

  just delete the email then then you know [TS]

  fine [TS]

  this was the reverse case she had a [TS]

  problem with one of her devices a [TS]

  problem with your kindle and she does [TS]

  what I guess most people do when they [TS]

  have problems or kindle is like you type [TS]

  something into a web search box it says [TS]

  like kindle problem can't sink whatever [TS]

  blah blah and it turns out if you type a [TS]

  certain sequence of words involving [TS]

  kindle and problem or whatever into [TS]

  google one of the very top it's on the [TS]

  first page is a completely bogus kindle [TS]

  support website and phone number i go [TS]

  you got a problem with your kindle call [TS]

  this number and we'll help you with your [TS]

  kindle so she called the number just [TS]

  like a 1855 number whatever and nice [TS]

  person answered the phone and asked her [TS]

  about her problems with your kindle and [TS]

  gave her instructions to download a [TS]

  citrix client to her computer and then [TS]

  our control your computer and [TS]

  you said then terminal looking up a [TS]

  whole bunch of things started scrolling [TS]

  by yeah so eventually she figured out [TS]

  once your cursor started moving that [TS]

  because I dive connected you know I've [TS]

  done screen sharing with her before and [TS]

  control your computer to solve problems [TS]

  that she knew this was something that [TS]

  should not be happening with a stranger [TS]

  although she got a lot of back talk from [TS]

  the the stranger that the person the [TS]

  phone was like you know she was saying [TS]

  like I know you really from amazon [TS]

  person was like you called me and and [TS]

  like but that doesn't mean anything but [TS]

  it was it wasn't but you know it just [TS]

  shows like if you get off on the wrong [TS]

  foot of like it was googling you you [TS]

  think you know it's not actually kinda [TS]

  hard to find a phone number to climb is [TS]

  on my mom was assistant that you can't [TS]

  actually call is on the phone which is [TS]

  not true you can call them on the phone [TS]

  but anyway it's very easy to just think [TS]

  what the internet is a giant search box [TS]

  where you type words and you click on [TS]

  the results and then you know of course [TS]

  it's trustworthy because i typed [TS]

  something in the problem with my kindle [TS]

  and i found be kindle support the [TS]

  official kindle support help desk had a [TS]

  phone number and the person picked up [TS]

  was totally helping with me with my [TS]

  kindle and just know what's the trick is [TS]

  she has no you know I'm amazed that i'm [TS]

  kind of impressed that the person got [TS]

  that her to successfully download [TS]

  install and launch the citrix thing [TS]

  because that is no small feat must [TS]

  involve a frustrating series of steps [TS]

  trying to instruct people and how to [TS]

  download things and nuns at things or [TS]

  whatever anyway bottom line is i had her [TS]

  just white pearl computer erase the hard [TS]

  drive because like at that point you [TS]

  just have to assume every single thing [TS]

  on that computer is compromised and yeah [TS]

  this is kind of the I mean you know this [TS]

  this is not a burner computer but it [TS]

  wasn't like her main computer she had [TS]

  long since it was very old like a white [TS]

  macbook so she had long since removed [TS]

  everything from it she cared about so we [TS]

  could wipe everything on it she was [TS]

  using dropbox on theory there could be [TS]

  something evil shoved into her dropbox [TS]

  but hopefully that will be data and not [TS]

  executables i don't know i mean she [TS]

  could you know anyway and the other [TS]

  thing is because my mom eventually [TS]

  figured out that it was bad that the [TS]

  person did disconnected the disconnect [TS]

  after installing the ransomware botnet [TS]

  blah blah rootkit on their thing [TS]

  maybe maybe there was a one or two day [TS]

  delay on [TS]

  the rootkit thing or the keylogger where [TS]

  the whole house was going on there [TS]

  maybe it didn't get installed fast [TS]

  enough because I don't really know what [TS]

  the timeline is but you know what you [TS]

  can so if we go race the entire hard [TS]

  drive but we reinstall the operating [TS]

  system everything redownloaded to [TS]

  reinstall the operating system reinstall [TS]

  the dropbox client did recent call her [TS]

  files from dropbox with those people [TS]

  stuck in something evil into dropbox [TS]

  that somehow finds a way to execute [TS]

  itself from within Dropbox she could be [TS]

  reinfected but like whatever and tell [TS]

  her to delete everything they drop boxes [TS]

  that's basically like all her files so [TS]

  no this is just there is actually an FTC [TS]

  page about the specific thing like tech [TS]

  support scammers or whatever what you're [TS]

  supposed to do if you can scam so [TS]

  hopefully being old retired people who [TS]

  don't have anything better to do they [TS]

  are doing everything that it says in [TS]

  that page including reporting the phone [TS]

  number and you know whatever get to keep [TS]

  trying to get them you know the people [TS]

  who are doing this to stop them from [TS]

  doing it to other people but yeah be [TS]

  careful out there on the internet it's [TS]

  dangerous socks man i just asked this [TS]

  stuff makes me so sad that like not that [TS]

  like people fall for it because you know [TS]

  people don't know any better with this [TS]

  kind of stuff looks official you're [TS]

  searching for something computers suck [TS]

  at being clear so it's understandable [TS]

  what makes me sad is that there are [TS]

  people out there in the world who [TS]

  everyday do this for a living and that [TS]

  they seem to be okay with that and that [TS]

  and they don't get caught I don't [TS]

  understand I don't get caught like I [TS]

  entered the phone number into google you [TS]

  find a million people who are like yes [TS]

  totally happened to me like years old [TS]

  reports of like yep i call these people [TS]

  and they seemed a little bit shady and [TS]

  then weird things started happening on [TS]

  my computer and I think I got a virus [TS]

  and Bob like how do they how we go on [TS]

  doing this how do we not like especially [TS]

  if they're calling from within the [TS]

  united states like this should be [TS]

  arrested within like you know days or [TS]

  weeks of the first report but no they [TS]

  just go on for years and years and [TS]

  apparently this is just fine with [TS]

  everybody [TS]

  yeah i mean that's we have we have two [TS]

  failures here we have filled her number [TS]

  one of these people doing this like [TS]

  waking up every day and doing this and [TS]

  being okay with that knowing what [TS]

  they're doing and then fill your number [TS]

  two is as I mean assuming they're [TS]

  operating in the US which is not a safe [TS]

  assumption but you know if they're [TS]

  operating in a country that has laws how [TS]

  is this continuing but the reality is [TS]

  they're probably outside the US [TS]

  yeah i know i think the phone number was [TS]

  someplace in Atlanta or something and I [TS]

  like it seemed like with it but it [TS]

  wasn't well where the phone number is it [TS]

  doesn't necessarily mean where they I [TS]

  mean I get ya i get so much in recent [TS]

  months I've had a massive uptick in the [TS]

  amount of phone calls spam I get now [TS]

  from like the robocalls and so you not [TS]

  not just people like dun bradstreet who [TS]

  have humans spam the crap out of you but [TS]

  like robo calls for that come from us [TS]

  numbers oftentimes numbers like Merle [TS]

  entirely it will come like from from a [TS]

  very close exchange to where I live so [TS]

  that I'm thinking well but if this is [TS]

  like somebody calling from my kids [TS]

  school I better pick up you know or that [TS]

  I got calls from san jose and like well [TS]

  if you're an apple developer and you get [TS]

  a call from san jose you pick up that [TS]

  call and it's look like you know I've [TS]

  gotten so much phone spam recently only [TS]

  last few months because like I i think [TS]

  what's going on is like there's all [TS]

  these unique virtual phone services like [TS]

  where you can like you know use some API [TS]

  online to generate local phone calls [TS]

  like these things exist for awhile i'm [TS]

  guessing that spammers have finally [TS]

  figured out that these things exist and [TS]

  are like automating the creation of a [TS]

  whole bunch of calls that are local to [TS]

  each person their calling and spamming [TS]

  them that way and anyway like you know [TS]

  spammers and scammers that they find [TS]

  ways that they're very creative they [TS]

  find ways to to create new span the new [TS]

  scams and just so sad [TS]

  yeah I like this this long 1855 whatever [TS]

  number like the fact that their old [TS]

  google results for it shows that aren't [TS]

  even being so smart as to like change [TS]

  numbers all the time to keep hopping [TS]

  around or whatever like they're just [TS]

  using the same one over a long period of [TS]

  time still like you figure the very [TS]

  least they could do is like have the [TS]

  government whoever disconnect that [TS]

  number for fraud and force them to come [TS]

  up with another number i mean maybe the [TS]

  maybe that'll make it worse they would [TS]

  be hopping around more but the only [TS]

  thing I feel like I have going for me [TS]

  and this situation is that [TS]

  modest these type of scans tend to be [TS]

  broad and so they're not like [TS]

  specifically targeting my mother or [TS]

  anybody else and what they mostly want [TS]

  to do is probably scrape for credit card [TS]

  numbers turn your computer into a bottle [TS]

  install ransomware very generic stuff [TS]

  not like do they know where my specific [TS]

  secret files are do they want my photos [TS]

  or whatever know it's just it's like a [TS]

  one-size-fits-all scam they connect your [TS]

  computer they find out what operating [TS]

  system you have they put whatever [TS]

  malware they want on there and it's just [TS]

  and you know some percentage of it they [TS]

  just assume the malware is not going to [TS]

  work or their everything is going to be [TS]

  erased or whatever but enough percentage [TS]

  hit that it makes the money and for all [TS]

  I know the person on the phone doing the [TS]

  thing gets paid some percentage for the [TS]

  number of people they install the [TS]

  software on and then you know like it is [TS]

  in some ways better than being [TS]

  individually targeted for a hack like [TS]

  you know if you're a bank or something [TS]

  intact and hackers specifically target [TS]

  you this kind of sort of generic 1i [TS]

  don't know like mass-market scam is kind [TS]

  of reassuring in how how little he cares [TS]

  about you specifically so i have some [TS]

  dim hope that immediately erasing her [TS]

  entire computer has actually saved her [TS]

  from any sort of future problems but who [TS]

  knows who knows what they got [TS]

  I mean she was you know her key chain [TS]

  was unlocked when they took control of [TS]

  her computer she had an admin account [TS]

  though she swears she never did enter [TS]

  her admin password [TS]

  I'm hoping that's the case but at the [TS]

  very least your keychain was unlocked [TS]

  and depressing sucks i'm glad she didn't [TS]

  really in the grand scheme of things [TS]

  that didn't seem like she really lost [TS]

  any data or she's really that much worse [TS]

  for wear [TS]

  yeah well it's just a question of like [TS]

  what did they get you know because yeah [TS]

  she there's like you know if you knew [TS]

  where to look on her computer there are [TS]

  plenty of things that people would want [TS]

  to steal you know because all people [TS]

  write things down there not what's your [TS]

  what's your beef with the completely [TS]

  flawless windows XP sounds oh we were [TS]

  and we already covered all all my beefs [TS]

  I just want to add one thing to [TS]

  bring together the two discussions about [TS]

  them which is the fact that i don't like [TS]

  the sounds because they're terrible and [TS]

  the idea that no matter what sounds we [TS]

  use eventually always finish the show [TS]

  which includes me will come to expect [TS]

  them as part of the show that you will [TS]

  come to love the sounds and it's kind of [TS]

  the reverse situation of the the reason [TS]

  why you never set your favorite song to [TS]

  be like the alarm that wakes you up in [TS]

  the morning and work down because you [TS]

  will come to hate it like you would just [TS]

  make it like never do that never if you [TS]

  like a song or anything like just you [TS]

  can make yourself hate anything by make [TS]

  her wake you up in the morning or maybe [TS]

  a ringtone or whatever so you should [TS]

  never do that you'll ruin things that [TS]

  you love this is the reverse this is [TS]

  taking something that I hate which is [TS]

  these windows XP sounds and trying to [TS]

  make me love it through repetition so [TS]

  that that's what is the the real the [TS]

  real horror of this this choice of [TS]

  sounds and yes lots of people tweeted [TS]

  they also had the sounds too i continue [TS]

  to think that better sounds exist and i [TS]

  would like to find 1 i'm thinking about [TS]

  it and if i come up with ones i will [TS]

  send them to you in the meantime I would [TS]

  encourage you to use different sounds on [TS]

  every show just like you want to have [TS]

  different t-shirts every year and in [TS]

  that way none of us will be forced to [TS]

  come to expect in love windows XP [TS]

  sentence by that rationale you would [TS]

  always hate every sound I ever used [TS]

  because you wouldn't have time to get [TS]

  acclimated and start loving any of them [TS]

  good point [TS]

  no they could just be you know that they [TS]

  would just think it'd just be mediocre [TS]

  and who knows maybe you'll have one that [TS]

  we all think it's great you know I mean [TS]

  like for the purpose like the the thing [TS]

  about the song is the purpose of the [TS]

  song is not to wake you up in the [TS]

  morning purposes as long as I listened [TS]

  to it and I enjoyed and you ruin that by [TS]

  making it the thing that wakes you up [TS]

  what we're looking for that purpose [TS]

  built sound to be this is the beginning [TS]

  of the add this is the end of the end if [TS]

  we find something start something that [TS]

  works like it just like we found a theme [TS]

  song that we like none of us like hate [TS]

  the theme song because we played [TS]

  repeatedly because the theme song didn't [TS]

  exist outside the show and was brought [TS]

  into it especially in another [TS]

  contact so i feel like we could find a [TS]

  beginning of a tenday bad sound that we [TS]

  all like that we like in the beginning [TS]

  that we like even more as it continues [TS]

  down the road and the meantime you just [TS]

  pick different one every episode a [TS]

  different set on every ad even and it [TS]

  could be funny and who knows by just [TS]

  random chance we might hit on one that's [TS]

  awesome but I've been thinking about i [TS]

  don't have any great ideas yet i would [TS]

  have already uploaded the sound files [TS]

  for you [TS]

  all rights it's funny to me that i'm a [TS]

  lot of people came out of the woodwork [TS]

  to say oh those sounds make me think [TS]

  that did in the old days when I had to [TS]

  use these computers but the now I have [TS]

  PTSD blah and PTSD came up a lot yeah [TS]

  just relax people it's a [TS]

  just relax people it's a [TS]

  computer like you are if you are getting [TS]

  PTSD from Windows XP it's probably [TS]

  because we're in an office somewhere [TS]

  probably air-conditioned probably heated [TS]

  you probably don't have PTSD you [TS]

  probably are just getting yourself [TS]

  worked up for the sake of getting we're [TS]

  getting worked up and/or because jon [TS]

  said so and apparently John can never be [TS]

  wrong i think they're joking with PTSD [TS]

  and one thing an actual PTSD maybe [TS]

  there's a joke in poor taste but but [TS]

  there are could be that could be bad [TS]

  feelings associated with like but if you [TS]

  play a sound even if it's like so you [TS]

  workin like a drive-through in there was [TS]

  a little sound when a car drove up and [TS]

  you work there for like three summers [TS]

  and it was miserable if you heard that [TS]

  sound again it can make you kind of get [TS]

  it up you know a cold shiver like a you [TS]

  know brings you back to a bad time in [TS]

  your life and for many people windows XP [TS]

  was a bad time in their life i guess i [TS]

  don't understand what you're saying it [TS]

  just it seems excessive for people to [TS]

  get that worked up over like I didn't [TS]

  enjoy windows XP I didn't think it was [TS]

  that 1i did I guess briefly but by the [TS]

  end of the time my time with her which [TS]

  was many many years [TS]

  i freakin hate it I hate it with a [TS]

  passion and I hated those those little [TS]

  noises but in this context I think it [TS]

  works perfectly and I think everyone [TS]

  just needs to chill out a little bit [TS]

  yeah yeah it's not so much the origin of [TS]

  the sounds the problem although it [TS]

  doesn't help at all because I didn't [TS]

  really like the mac sounds that were [TS]

  chosen either and not them being from [TS]

  Max to magically make them awesome [TS]

  sounds for the purpose i just didn't [TS]

  feel like we haven't found the right fit [TS]

  yet is it i'm continuing to think about [TS]

  as should be all [TS]