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Connected

85: Pokédex of iMacs

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0:00:00[Music]

0:00:06From Relay FM, this is Connected, episode number 85.

0:00:10Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace and Braintree.

0:00:14My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Mr. Steven Hackett.

0:00:17Hello, Steven Hackett.

0:00:19Hello, Michael Hurley.

0:00:20And hello, Federico Vittucci. Hello, Federico Vittucci.

0:00:22Hello, guys. Hello, Myke Hurley.

0:00:24Hello. I'm back again. Tag team back again.

0:00:28You survived, so that's good news.

0:00:31Yep, yep. I always survive.

0:00:33Was it just a week ago you were gone?

0:00:36Yeah, it was just last week.

0:00:37Yeah, it was last week.

0:00:38So the other day, Myke, on the Italian news,

0:00:40they were talking about the Queen of England turning 90.

0:00:44Like, this week, I think?

0:00:46Yeah, something like that.

0:00:48You guys having a big celebration over there?

0:00:50There is a thing happening, I believe.

0:00:52But I'm not currently involved in it.

0:00:56Because I thought the birthday of the Queen was like the birthday of everyone in England,

0:01:04like everyone is celebrating, having cake, but I guess it's not what I imagined.

0:01:09There are like, I think there's this like campaign to clean up London for the Queen's

0:01:13birthday.

0:01:14Oh, that's nice!

0:01:15Like rubbish-wise, yeah, which is, you know, it's quite nice I guess.

0:01:21But you're not cleaning up London.

0:01:23I'm sounding right now like I don't appreciate the royal family, where I'm actually a supporter

0:01:29of the royal family.

0:01:30I think that it's nice that we have them.

0:01:33I'm just not personally prepared for the Queen's birthday.

0:01:39To clean up London.

0:01:40To clean up London.

0:01:41You're not prepared to clean up London.

0:01:42That's okay.

0:01:43That's okay, Myke.

0:01:44Yeah, it's not on my list.

0:01:46But we do have some follow-up.

0:01:47That is on my list.

0:01:48I did notice the follow-up sound last week.

0:01:50It made me smile.

0:01:51I'm glad you did.

0:01:52I didn't get many comments about that, so.

0:01:55My thought is some people didn't know what it was,

0:01:57and were just confused.

0:01:58- We've lost all of the prompt listeners.

0:01:59They've all gone away now.

0:02:00- They've all gone.

0:02:02Yeah, so last week, Federica and I discussed

0:02:05the couple issues with iOS 9.3,

0:02:07and as predicted, 9.3.1 came out a couple days later.

0:02:12It's been out.

0:02:13I feel like it's soft things.

0:02:14It seems like all that chatter's kinda settled down,

0:02:18which is good, I guess.

0:02:19- It's all gone.

0:02:21So if you haven't updated, go update.

0:02:23It's all better.

0:02:24- Or maybe it's just because those people

0:02:25can't access Twitter because their iOS devices are broke.

0:02:29- It's true.

0:02:30- That's one way to deal with it.

0:02:32- Yeah, it's an update but my phone

0:02:34is basically a potato now, so too bad.

0:02:37In the category of Year of Techie,

0:02:41listener Jimmy wrote in and said,

0:02:44"In the spirit of #YearOfTechie, I just bought an Echo."

0:02:48and he goes on to talk about Spotify and Apple Music.

0:02:53And a comment that we haven't really touched on

0:02:55in this conversation, that Apple Prime Music

0:02:57is basically like inscrutable.

0:03:00So with the Echo, Amazon has a music streaming service,

0:03:04and so you can just tell the Echo,

0:03:06"Hey, go play The Killers,"

0:03:08and it will play something.

0:03:12But the problem is it's a very small library,

0:03:14and so I've got a couple bands I really like that

0:03:16have like one or two random albums. It's

0:03:18not a very complete listing. And in fact

0:03:21it became such a problem in my household

0:03:24that we are now paying for Spotify

0:03:26because of the Echo. And so you say, "Hey,

0:03:29you know, Echo play this album by this

0:03:33band on Spotify." And it's great. It works

0:03:37really well and it's really the first

0:03:39time I've ever paid for a music streaming

0:03:40service and Echo has forced my hand there.

0:03:43But it's nice and it's nice to have

0:03:45have sort of all that available to you just with the sound of your voice but of

0:03:50course if you're paying for Apple music that's not there and I think the Sonos

0:03:56is probably a better choice if you're in the Apple music system only but I know

0:04:03you're using Spotify I think we're going to get to that but it's interesting

0:04:07that like this hardware device finally forced my hand to join the streaming

0:04:11revolution. Yeah, the Spotify integration on the Echo is just, it's very good, you

0:04:16know, because you can just, for example, I'm just walking around the kitchen and

0:04:20I think of a song and I can just ask the Echo and it's the kind of, you know,

0:04:24convenience and, you know, the kind of natural interface that I wasn't

0:04:30expecting it to make this much sense to me but I guess it just does and I know

0:04:35that people are gonna say, well, you can just do the same with Siri on the iPhone

0:04:38But the thing is, I'm not walking around my house constantly looking at my phone.

0:04:44And there's a certain freedom, I guess, in being able to just walk up to the Echo and

0:04:48just say "play this song" and it plays.

0:04:51It's nice.

0:04:52And I guess it's sort of another argument in favor of this kind of voice interface that

0:04:59constantly listens to you.

0:05:00I know that a lot of people don't like it, but we're using the Echo, we like it.

0:05:04I keep seeing a lot of people on Twitter buying the Echo these days.

0:05:08So we'll see what Apple does in the future.

0:05:11I would be surprised if they're not considering or making something like this, but we don't

0:05:16know.

0:05:17So we'll see.

0:05:18Yeah, it's, I mean, like we keep coming back to, this whole thing is just in so much flux

0:05:26right now.

0:05:27But it's fascinating to look at.

0:05:28And we're going to get into a little bit more of the home automation stuff today, I think.

0:05:32But the whole gamut of devices is really up in the air.

0:05:37We spoke, I think last week, about this iMac project that I have embarked on.

0:05:45Project is a nice way to call it.

0:05:47You guys are so mean to me.

0:05:50Like an obsession.

0:05:51I have a blog post up on 512 outlining the 13 flavors of iMac and the ones that I have.

0:05:59I have four of them in my trunk right now waiting to be unloaded once I get off the

0:06:04podcast.

0:06:05I'm going from storing them at my house where my wife was getting upset to storing them

0:06:08at my office where my brother will get upset.

0:06:11So what can you do?

0:06:12Not buy 13 IMAX?

0:06:15Well so this is the thing, this is the stroke of brilliance that I've had is I should crowd

0:06:19source it.

0:06:21And so I have posted this thing on 512, I'm going to keep this updated and as you can

0:06:27see the progress and I have gotten like it's up to like 40 emails now of people who have

0:06:32various IMAX offering them up for sacrifice to the project. It's not sacrifice, they'll

0:06:38be treated very well. For research, you want to call it research, not sacrifice. And so

0:06:43I've got, I mean there's readers with like IMAX all over the place who I'm talking with

0:06:48and getting them shipped to Memphis so that's super humbling like I put this up and I thought

0:06:53maybe one or two people will get in touch.

0:06:55And like Saturday, I worked outside all day in the yard

0:06:58and I kind of picked up my phone in the afternoon

0:07:00and it's like my email just blown up,

0:07:02people saying, "I've got this one, I have that one."

0:07:04You know, I think my aunt has my old,

0:07:05you know, iMac in her attic,

0:07:07I'll check next time I'm there.

0:07:08Like it's really exciting.

0:07:09So that link's in the show notes and it's getting close.

0:07:13Like I have actually one showing up today,

0:07:17Flower Power shows up today, which I'm--

0:07:19- Wow.

0:07:21See that, that, I can't, that's, that's sarcasm, Myke, it hurts me.

0:07:24That wasn't sarcasm.

0:07:26Hurts me on the inside.

0:07:27The flower power one I thought would be rarer, so I'm, you know, surprised that it's come through so easily for you.

0:07:33So what happens, Stephen, when you collect all, when you complete these Pokedex of IMAX?

0:07:39Don't catch more than that.

0:07:40What happens?

0:07:41So it's gonna be, it's gonna be a couple things.

0:07:44I'm gonna do a big video, like I've been, look at this email right now.

0:07:49I'm going to be doing a video like I've been doing on the YouTube channel. I have very

0:07:56grand plans for this video. In fact, I have purchased some equipment to help me with this

0:08:01video. I'm also going to need many hired hands to help just move them around because they're

0:08:05all very heavy. But I've got some other ideas too. I've got some other things that I want

0:08:09to do with this. Ultimately, I have an idea of how to display them, but it's just like

0:08:15a project that really started as just a wild hare, it's like all of a sudden taken its

0:08:20own life and is just really like run away with people getting involved. But yeah, FlyerPower

0:08:28was fun. It actually came from Reddit, someone on the Vintage Apple Reddit is mailing me

0:08:33that one. What has been interesting, well interesting to me, then we can move on because

0:08:39I know you guys are falling asleep, but.

0:08:41- No, no.

0:08:42- In the email responses, it's been really interesting

0:08:47to see which ones people have.

0:08:49Like a lot of people have the original one.

0:08:51Much, I mean this is a very limited sample size, right?

0:08:53But like people held on to the original iMac.

0:08:56'Cause a lot of people, it was like their first Mac,

0:08:59or it was their Mac their parents bought

0:09:01when they were in school.

0:09:02I have several people email me,

0:09:03I'm like this was the computer I grew up on

0:09:04and we've just always kept it.

0:09:06And one guy emailed me and he was like,

0:09:09I don't want it to go to a dump,

0:09:10like I'd rather it go to you, like be part of a project.

0:09:15So it's been fun.

0:09:18But graphite and snow seem by far to be the most popular.

0:09:22Like I don't know how many emails I've gotten

0:09:23about those two models in particular.

0:09:26And then a couple others like Ruby, no one seems to have.

0:09:29And so that one may be much harder to track down

0:09:31than I thought it was.

0:09:32- I was gonna ask you if there's one

0:09:33that is harder than others.

0:09:34I guess you are finding that out just via this project.

0:09:38- I mean, I think, so like all the fruit flavors,

0:09:41you know, they did five at a time,

0:09:42and they did two generations of those.

0:09:44And those are harder because they're just more of them,

0:09:47right, so if they sold a million five flavors,

0:09:49then that's divided up across five colors,

0:09:51where other generations just had one or two colors.

0:09:54But I think almost everything except Ruby,

0:09:57I currently have, at least have a lead on

0:09:59somewhere in my inbox, so.

0:10:00So yeah, that's just coming right along,

0:10:04and I cleared off some storage space here at the office

0:10:07and I'm gonna be moving them inside as soon as we get done.

0:10:10- If it gets really difficult, you could just paint one.

0:10:13- I think that's cheating.

0:10:15- Pretend, just pretend.

0:10:16- Mic solution is the best.

0:10:17- Well, 'cause what do you do if you have 12 of them

0:10:20and a year goes by and you haven't got the 13th?

0:10:23- You keep searching, mic.

0:10:25- That just feels like a horrible thing.

0:10:28- Ultimately, something has to pop up on eBay, right?

0:10:30So, we'll see.

0:10:32- Well, the time did, so.

0:10:34It's true. Damn did. Anyways, moving on from iMacHorn, still talking about the Mac.

0:10:41Myke, people have sent us a couple more emails about your comment about the Mac Mini server

0:10:46that you have sort of spoken about doing. Have you thought any more about that? People

0:10:50are like interested in this, they want to know what you're doing.

0:10:52Yeah, I want to set it up. I haven't set it up. I'm collecting links from people of like

0:10:56things that I should be checking out, like apps and stuff, but I've had a really crazy

0:11:02travel schedule as listeners of this show will know and I'm about to go away again for

0:11:07RelayCon Atlanta next week.

0:11:09So I haven't really had the time to properly sit and do this.

0:11:16Like I want to do it over a weekend but I haven't had a free weekend.

0:11:20So that is still coming and when I do go through setting up the Mac mini server I'll dedicate

0:11:25some time on this show to talking about my experiences and the things that I'm doing

0:11:30to try and make that work for me.

0:11:31Okay. Yeah that's that's the fun part about it right like you can do as little

0:11:37or as much with something like this as you want. Lots of good options. The iPhone

0:11:42SE is out as we spoke about. We've ordered one it showed up yesterday in my

0:11:46household. I moved my wife's stuff from her 6s to the SE last night and I handed

0:11:51it to her after I'd moved everything over and she was just instantly in love

0:11:54with it. So she you know down to the point where like using the same case and

0:12:00and very quickly slipped back into her use case she had before the bigger phone. In my

0:12:06sample size of one iPhone SE, it's 100% customer satisfaction rate.

0:12:11Wow, Tim will be so happy. It's off the charts at my house, Myke.

0:12:16Oh really? There are not even any charts anymore.

0:12:21As far as the phone itself, it is an iPhone 5 or 5S. It is that phone. If you didn't know

0:12:29the details you would be hard-pressed to notice the differences. It is incredibly

0:12:33fast. You know it's the same just the one on chip that are on the bigger phones

0:12:38but with less screen and of course anytime you set up a phone from scratch

0:12:41you know there's always that sort of new feeling to it but in my time with it

0:12:46last night it was pretty impressive and the camera is really great. I will say

0:12:53that the thing that still gets me with the size is not only the keyboard which

0:12:58which I basically destroyed my Apple ID password,

0:13:00trying to type it in over and over.

0:13:02But when you go take a picture,

0:13:04the viewfinder is just so much smaller, right?

0:13:06Because the screen is so much smaller.

0:13:08I really found it where that,

0:13:10like those two examples where the screen size

0:13:12really similar to me that I can't go back.

0:13:15We're trying to take a picture

0:13:16and it's just like you're looking through a postage stamp.

0:13:18But she loves it and it's a nice phone.

0:13:21I think if you're on the fence,

0:13:22it's definitely worth checking out.

0:13:26Yeah, we still haven't come to a decision yet, in regards to what Adina's gonna do.

0:13:32It was interesting, I was talking to Sylvia about this because she's been looking forward

0:13:37to the smaller iPhone, and she told me, basically she wants to use the smaller iPhone, but she

0:13:44doesn't want to move to the iPhone SE, if only because the iPhone 7 is coming in September,

0:13:50and she sort of caught the bug from me to always use the latest iPhone.

0:13:55You know, just because we now have the habit of buying a new phone, then we sell the phone

0:14:00and we buy the new one, just because we want to use the latest iPhone.

0:14:03So she asked me, "Do you believe there's going to be an iPhone 7 SE in September?"

0:14:09And I told her, "Well, the word on Twitter is that this is a special edition, it's not

0:14:15going to receive the same update cycle as the 6S and the 6S Plus."

0:14:20And she doesn't want to use the sif that's gonna be, you know, outdated by September.

0:14:25So that's interesting.

0:14:26I guess maybe Apple doesn't want to cater to, you know, people who want to buy the latest

0:14:32iPhone but also have it be a small iPhone.

0:14:36I imagine, you know, there being like a Venn diagram of people who want the latest iPhone,

0:14:40people who want the smaller iPhone, and Apple doesn't believe there's an intersection between

0:14:43those two kinds of people.

0:14:45So she's gonna get an iPhone 7 in the 4.7 inch size.

0:14:50She ultimately decided not to get the DSC just because it's not gonna receive, or most likely

0:14:55it's not gonna receive an update in September.

0:14:57Right.

0:14:58Yeah, I don't know if this product will become like a regular thing, but I think it's safe

0:15:06to say that there won't be one in September because they've just put this product out

0:15:11now in March.

0:15:12Right.

0:15:13there may be one, I think there might be one next year, maybe, but I would be very surprised

0:15:19if there was a four-inch phone, a new one debuted in six months time. That seems kind

0:15:26of crazy to me that they would do that. I don't expect it, really.

0:15:30Yeah, me neither. Yeah.

0:15:32So we'll see. UIKit on the Mac, Steven, you have a follow-up?

0:15:37Yeah, so I came across this blog post by Brent Simmons, who's of course a long-time Mac developer.

0:15:43And we'll have a link in the show notes.

0:15:45And I'm not going to try to summarize the technical aspects of this because it's

0:15:49just at the edge of what I can fully grasp, honestly.

0:15:52But he closes the article with a theory why there aren't more Mac apps.

0:15:59And it's definitely worth the read.

0:16:01And basically, part of his argument is that bringing UIKit to the Mac may be

0:16:07sort of a false argument that developers may look and say, well, I would come to

0:16:10the Mac if UIKit was there.

0:16:13But in reality, there's a lot more needed

0:16:16to make a good Mac app.

0:16:17That just moving to UIKit doesn't,

0:16:19as complicated as that is,

0:16:21and he brings up some good points about that,

0:16:23is that it doesn't really solve the problem

0:16:24of what makes a Mac app good.

0:16:27And that a lot of work that you don't have to do on iOS,

0:16:30you do have to do on the Mac

0:16:31because the Mac is more complicated, right?

0:16:34You have menus, you have live resizing,

0:16:36you have AppleScript, and all that places a burden

0:16:40on developers that UIKit won't solve.

0:16:42I just found it interesting you know the the idea that

0:16:46there's a confident that the Mac is stable and it is a platform where most of the changes behind it right that that

0:16:55Os 10 or Mac OS if it's renamed

0:16:57that that platform is very much a known quantity and

0:17:03That to a degree makes it a little bit boring and that iOS is still you know however long

0:17:11eight years since the iOS App Store now,

0:17:15that it's still the wild west,

0:17:16and there's still excitement there,

0:17:17and that the platform is still rapidly changing, right?

0:17:20Like, even if you just look at the last three years

0:17:22between iOS 7, 8, and 9, how many changes we've seen,

0:17:26and that those two things couple together,

0:17:29that the Mac is more complicated to develop for

0:17:32in some ways that iOS developers may not be familiar with,

0:17:35and that iOS feels like a more vibrant platform,

0:17:39that those two things are kind of working together

0:17:41against this idea that, oh, just put UIKit on the Mac

0:17:44and developers will come raining down on it.

0:17:47And so I thought it was an interesting continuation

0:17:50of the conversation we've been having on the show.

0:17:53And I don't know if UIKit or that UXKit project

0:17:57is ever going to see the light of day.

0:17:59But if it does, I think it'd be foolish to think

0:18:01that it's like a magic bullet to fixing the Mac app problem.

0:18:05I think that maybe the way to solve this

0:18:08is kind of the redefinition of what makes a good Mac app,

0:18:12as well as looking at other things.

0:18:16Like, how many people use AppleScript?

0:18:19- Yeah, and there is that underlying thing, right,

0:18:23that the sort of applications that Brent Simmons has worked

0:18:26on are sort of for power users,

0:18:28sort of like old school Mac users.

0:18:30And there's a lot of apps on my system that, you know,

0:18:32are from the Mac App Store age that don't support

0:18:35some of that stuff, and so, yeah, absolutely,

0:18:37I mean you can go without it, but you can't go without menus or you can't go without live resizing, right?

0:18:41Like you open a Mac app and the window doesn't resize people gonna freak out. So yeah. Yeah, there are things there

0:18:46But I think I think it's a bit of give and take on that one. Honestly, I think it's more work

0:18:51But also there has to be less maybe assumed

0:18:54as to what a Mac app should be because

0:18:57Seriously, I would love to know

0:19:00How many people you know the percentage wise use Apple script even an app like pages for example?

0:19:06Oh yeah, where everybody was screaming about it?

0:19:10I think you're right.

0:19:11There's um, that's got to be a low number, but um...

0:19:15It reminds me of that thing from the talk show episode with Federiki and Q. It's one

0:19:20of my favorite little quotes is that everyone was really upset about you couldn't use Bluetooth

0:19:24keyboards on the Apple TV, but their statistics showed that during WWDC nobody used them.

0:19:31Right.

0:19:32So it's like you can, you know, they say we do these things for this audience, but it's

0:19:37worth remembering that sometimes that kind of hardcore audience are the only people that

0:19:41use a feature.

0:19:42Sure.

0:19:43Yeah, the interesting argument there is that the people who make the news, in a sense,

0:19:51about Apple are also the geeky people who use their devices a lot.

0:19:56So of course, bloggers and tech reporters, they use Apple devices more, and maybe in

0:20:02a different way than the average customer.

0:20:05And because they have the power to spread the news, they can point out these aspects

0:20:10that people wouldn't know about, but after these people write about them, they do know

0:20:14about them, they do know about those problems.

0:20:17So it's sort of a chicken and egg problem.

0:20:20Do we want to build this feature for everyone, or do we want to build them for geeky Apple

0:20:25users, but if we don't, then those people are going to write about them and then everyone

0:20:30will know what we've done. So it's interesting, right, that you're sort of stuck in the middle.

0:20:39You know you're going to upset some people, but also I totally understand why Apple sees

0:20:44the data and says "ok, well, you know, during WWDC, developers are the only kind of users

0:20:50who use Bluetooth keyboards, so it's maybe not a priority. It's an interesting position.

0:20:57Yep, it really is. Alright, shall we take off our first break?

0:21:02Yeah. Yeah, let's do it.

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0:22:13I'm slowing it down. Very dramatic.

0:22:18Safari Technology Preview.

0:22:23See, now I don't know when you're done if you're just going to say another word or somebody's silence.

0:22:27Preview.

0:22:29Yeah, I'm done now.

0:22:30Okay, so if this was last week,

0:22:33Apple released sort of a separate build of Safari called Safari Technology Preview

0:22:39that sort of super sets the old WebKit nightlies,

0:22:43and I think they were still around,

0:22:44but this is a sort of an easy way to think about it,

0:22:48is a beta version of Safari.

0:22:50You can run it alongside normal Safari.

0:22:52It's signed, so you get all your iCloud stuff in it,

0:22:54which is nice, and it's sort of a glimpse

0:22:57at where Safari is going, and as Sarah used to point out

0:23:01on ATP, the best part of it is that the icon's purple

0:23:03instead of blue, and I've been running it,

0:23:06and I had a couple of thoughts.

0:23:08I switched to Chrome full-time about a year and a half ago.

0:23:15For-- you know, Safari was problematic

0:23:18under the last version of OS X for a lot of users,

0:23:21including me.

0:23:22And I really was in a situation where

0:23:23I needed multiple browser profiles, where in Chrome you

0:23:27can set up sort of different users within Chrome.

0:23:29You have different bookmarks, different history,

0:23:30different plugins, that sort of thing.

0:23:32So I had a personal one and a work one.

0:23:34I still have the need for that today,

0:23:35especially with the YouTube stuff.

0:23:37I learned from Gray just to have that be a completely different world.

0:23:41So I have a YouTube like manager Chrome profile and I only go in there and I'm uploading a

0:23:46video and that's it.

0:23:47It's only then I get out of it.

0:23:50But overall I've been sort of less happy with Chrome over time in the sense that it more

0:23:56and more feels like it is a sort of a mini operating system unto itself.

0:24:01It doesn't feel very native on the Mac.

0:24:03It doesn't have all the OS X sharing stuff

0:24:06that Safari has.

0:24:08And so I decided with this technology preview

0:24:11to give Safari another shot.

0:24:14And instantly it is great to have your history

0:24:16and your open tabs and your,

0:24:18especially your bookmark synced across your iOS devices.

0:24:21I really like that.

0:24:23But Safari's still problematic in some ways.

0:24:26And even though this technology preview,

0:24:29like it feels faster than Safari side by side,

0:24:31it feels much more stable.

0:24:33It still has a lot of the weirdness that Safari has, right?

0:24:39Where sometimes things don't work in Safari

0:24:42but will work in Chrome.

0:24:43I actually ran into that just last night

0:24:44looking at someone's website where

0:24:46there was a sign up form that just straight up

0:24:48didn't work in Safari and it had to go to Chrome.

0:24:50But--

0:24:51- Perfect.

0:24:53- Yeah, I emailed it, I was like,

0:24:54"Hey, you know your thing is broken in the browser

0:24:56"that most people, you know, that's the default browser.

0:24:59"FYI, maybe you wanna look at that."

0:25:01And it still has the most asinine design decision ever made by the company of centering things

0:25:09in the Safari toolbar.

0:25:11Like why do my bookmarks have to be centered?

0:25:13Why do I have to fight to keep my address bar, you know, the location bar centered when

0:25:19plugins get updated and everything moves around?

0:25:21Like it's the most frustrating thing I've ever used on the computer.

0:25:24But all that aside, what I want to talk about a little bit

0:25:29was like why Apple's doing this now,

0:25:34and why all of a sudden does it feel like

0:25:38that they are paying attention to Safari

0:25:40where in the past it's always been locked to OS releases.

0:25:44You wouldn't get a Safari update

0:25:45until the new version of OS X came out.

0:25:48Now Apple, to be fair in that comment,

0:25:50has been good most of the time

0:25:52where if you were on Lion and Mountain Lion comes out,

0:25:56Mountain Lion comes out with a new version of Safari,

0:25:58then Lion gets that version too, right?

0:26:00So they sort of lump in old users

0:26:02with the new version of Safari.

0:26:04But of course there's a limit

0:26:06to that backward compatibility.

0:26:08And it just feels like all of a sudden Apple's realizing

0:26:10that Safari is an important part of their platform

0:26:14and they're doing this and again it's out in the open,

0:26:16which is fun.

0:26:17But I know Myke, you use Chrome full-time, right?

0:26:21even on iOS?

0:26:22- Yeah, I still do, yeah.

0:26:24- Still do.

0:26:25So why have you stopped using or looking at Safari?

0:26:30- I switched away from Safari to Chrome

0:26:33because Google Docs wasn't working in Safari.

0:26:36- Yep.

0:26:37- That was why I moved away.

0:26:38And then since, so then I moved to Chrome on my iOS devices

0:26:43because I wanted to have tabs

0:26:45and history data syncing everywhere.

0:26:48And since then, it's just like this just makes sense for me

0:26:50so many ways. Using Chrome as my browser gives me additional benefits in the

0:26:55Google ecosystem. Like the Google Apps and Google Now stuff, if I ever use that

0:27:03and when I do use that, it knows my browsing history so it recommends

0:27:06stories and things like that to me. You know we've spoken about these things in

0:27:10the past, that's all really good but primarily now all of my history, my

0:27:14browsing history is in Chrome. I never have any problems with it so why would I

0:27:18move back? I can't think of anything that Safari could give me that Chrome

0:27:23doesn't give me considering I'm not freaking out about Google privacy stuff

0:27:30because we don't need to retread that ground. So why would I

0:27:35move back? For me I don't see the point of it. I like the fact that I can

0:27:39really easily call up my tabs from any of my devices and I mean I know you can

0:27:45do that stuff in Safari, but it's just like why would I switch back, right? Like I'm all

0:27:51in on Chrome, it works really good for me, I never have any problems, I can view anything

0:27:55I need to view. On my Mac I don't have to have Flash installed because I use Chrome.

0:28:00There are all these good things that I like about it, it works really well for me, I'm

0:28:05just gonna stick with it.

0:28:07I think it's a lot easier these days to use Chrome as your main browser on iOS, especially

0:28:13if you don't use Apple apps like Mail and Messages. So those apps cannot open a link

0:28:19in Google Chrome, they just go to Safari. I'll tell you one of the things that made

0:28:23this really so much better for me was Peek and Pop. I don't need to open the windows

0:28:28anymore to view something that somebody sends me in a link, so it's not an issue, I just

0:28:33view it and then just let it go, and I never open Safari.

0:28:36A lot of third party apps like Tweetbot and Slack, which we use all the time, they support

0:28:41Chrome directly and Chrome has offered the feature to go back to the previous app for

0:28:46like several years now. There's like a back button in the top left. So it's a lot easier,

0:28:52especially if you don't rely on mail messages and I guess web links from Siri, but come

0:28:59on, who uses those? It's a lot easier these days to use Chrome on iOS. And I personally

0:29:04went back and forth between Chrome and Safari a couple of years ago. I've been using Safari

0:29:09for the past two years on my iOS devices, I'm a really happy Safari user. But I understand

0:29:16why you prefer Chrome, especially for the Google Now stuff, Voice Search, which is a

0:29:22lot faster than using Siri or Safari. I think it makes sense to, if you're a Google customer,

0:29:31if you're deep into the Google ecosystem, it's now possible to sort of use it as your

0:29:35primary browser on iOS. The Safari Web Preview, Technology Preview on OS X is

0:29:41interesting to me for two reasons. One is Apple is slowly but surely opening up

0:29:47more and more to external testing. So we've seen this with OS X before, then

0:29:52iOS, watchOS, you know the public betas and now even the single app is having a

0:29:57technology preview. So it seems to me a symptom of Apple trying to gather as

0:30:03much input from users as possible, and that's a good thing, I feel.

0:30:10The second is sort of a veiled response to the criticism that they got about Safari for

0:30:15the past year, maybe, about Apple being sort of behind in terms of web technologies that

0:30:24are supporting Safari.

0:30:25And you can see this in the features that are available in the Safari Technology Preview.

0:30:30There were a couple of articles a couple of months back about the problems with Safari

0:30:36compared to other browsers like Chrome and Firefox.

0:30:40And it seems that Apple is addressing those issues and trying to make it easier for web

0:30:43developers to build and debug complex web apps using Safari.

0:30:48So I feel like it's two main reasons.

0:30:54testing, being more open to the developer community, and also trying to show how

0:31:00Apple is thinking about the state of web technologies on Safari. So that's a big

0:31:06thumbs up for me.

0:31:07Yeah, I think the reason that Apple has sort of had this newfound

0:31:14spotlight on Safari is exactly what Myke's talking about, that Chrome is

0:31:20really good and there is a battery life problem on the Mac that is pretty

0:31:26atrocious actually but as a browser and Myke you're on an iMac so I was plugged in so who cares

0:31:34exactly doesn't bother me I was just about to say that yeah you just see your power meter

0:31:38like spinning faster and faster when you're using it but I'm other than that

0:31:42and that that that's an issue and they should address it it is a really good

0:31:47browser and it's one that that I like

0:31:50and there are things in it that I miss and I have

0:31:51not ruled out going back to it but you

0:31:54know I think I think so much of Apple's

0:31:56strategy right now is multi-device right

0:31:59so you have things like Handoff and

0:32:01Airdrop that are designed to go from

0:32:04working on an iOS device to a Mac as

0:32:07seamless as possible. You have iCloud you

0:32:09know stitching all this stuff together

0:32:11and Safari is a big part of that and in

0:32:14a world where you can't change your

0:32:16default browser, it's important that the

0:32:20default one is good. And so I'm,

0:32:23you know, I'm cautiously optimistic that this

0:32:26means improvements are coming to Safari.

0:32:28You know, with Google doing their own

0:32:30thing in Chrome, you know, they are moving

0:32:33away from the same branch of WebKit that

0:32:35Apple uses, there's going to be some more

0:32:38change coming in the browser market. And

0:32:40I think it's imperative that Apple, that

0:32:43any platform owner, has a really good

0:32:45browser. You see Microsoft trying right now with Edge and I don't think they're

0:32:48succeeding quite yet but the platform browser is an important thing. So I think

0:32:53it's good that Apple is doing it. I think the timing is interesting being kind of

0:32:57before WWDC. It kind of feels like this maybe is leading to something but

0:33:02who knows. But all in all I'm glad it's around. Do you think that they might

0:33:09consider doing something that is on iOS maybe using TestFlight at some point?

0:33:14Yeah, I mean maybe, or maybe it becomes, you know, like there's like a Safari beta program,

0:33:21right?

0:33:22And maybe it's similar to the iOS public beta.

0:33:25Yeah, like you install some sort of profile and then it gives you a special version of

0:33:29Safari.

0:33:30Maybe.

0:33:31I mean there are definitely things in the Safari technology preview that don't exist

0:33:35elsewhere yet.

0:33:37That's why I thought of it, right?

0:33:39In theory it'd be good to test this stuff everywhere, especially with what it looks

0:33:42like they may be trying to do is to get a bit of a larger data set because you

0:33:46know you're gonna get people that download this and use it that don't

0:33:49actually need it like you probably don't really need any of these things.

0:33:53The thing about having the same beta on iOS is you would you have to to build

0:34:02some sort of default browser setting because on the Mac you can say Safari is

0:34:06my main browser but just I want to use technology preview side by side.

0:34:10Let's hope that this is the start of that process.

0:34:13On iOS you would have to go into some kind of setting screen and say, "Safari is my main

0:34:18browser so all the links from messages and mail and other apps, I'll open those in Safari

0:34:22but just let me test checkout GPU on iOS."

0:34:27One can dream.

0:34:28Yes, we can.

0:34:29We can dream, Myke.

0:34:32Talking about dreams.

0:34:33Yeah, hopes, dreams, aspirations.

0:34:36Steven, hold me.

0:34:37I have a special secret topic which I have withheld from my co-hosts today.

0:34:42Yes, I've written down what I believe it to be.

0:34:46So we don't even know what it is.

0:34:48No, you have no idea. Stephen's made a prediction and in like pure mind reader

0:34:52like magician fashion he's written it down on a piece of paper and folded it up.

0:34:56Okay.

0:34:57And then we'll put a picture of that in the show notes so you can guess his guess.

0:35:01So I went to the Apple Store today and bought the USB connector.

0:35:05Okay.

0:35:06And a 128GB 9.7" Gold iPad Pro with LTE and a Smart Keyboard.

0:35:11Wait, what?

0:35:12What?

0:35:13What?

0:35:14Which iPad Pro?

0:35:159.7" Gold.

0:35:16You bought it?

0:35:17Why?

0:35:18You already have an iPad Pro?

0:35:19I know I do, yeah.

0:35:20He's been CGP'd is what's happened.

0:35:21This is partly it.

0:35:22Alright, so on Cortex and Upgrade this week, I've been talking a lot about, you know,

0:35:26the

0:35:26He's been CGP'd, is what's happened.

0:35:30This is partly it. Alright, so on Cortex and Upgrade this week,

0:35:34I've been talking a lot about the iPad Pro, the small one.

0:35:38And it was in my conversation with Gray, and stuff that we've been

0:35:42talking about a lot over the last couple of months, that's been making me think about

0:35:46trying this out. So something that Gray talks about and I talk about with him a bunch

0:35:50is the idea of multiple screens, and this world where

0:35:54you wouldn't use one iPad for everything. You might have like multiple iPads, right,

0:36:00that you use for different tasks and you kind of use these screens like they are pieces of paper.

0:36:07And I think that that concept is very interesting. But one that the thing,

0:36:12you know the thing that's actually caught me the most, which I think is so funny,

0:36:15is exactly the thing that I was laughing about with you before the iPad Pro came out. Remember

0:36:22the big iPad and small iPad that I thought you were gonna have. That's what did this

0:36:28to me. So what I was thinking about is, for many years I've had two Macs. I've had a desktop

0:36:34Mac and a laptop. Like that's how I've worked for many years. So I have the big one for

0:36:42home and the small one for moving around. So I want to try that out a little bit more

0:36:48to have the big iPad, which I mainly use at home and for big work stuff, and then the

0:36:55smaller iPad that I can use on the go, but also for different things like reading, checking

0:37:02Twitter and stuff like that in the morning and in the evening, like the work that I do

0:37:05at the start and the end of each day, which is a lot lighter and is mainly about consuming

0:37:09stuff.

0:37:10I think I find reading on the big iPad fine, but it is really big and maybe bigger than

0:37:16I need. So I wanted to see what it was like to use the smaller one. It's why I've also

0:37:21got LTE in this iPad, which is the first time I've ever done that. Because I want to have

0:37:28this one on the go and on the move a little bit more. And I also bought a keyboard with

0:37:33it because I think that for me, that's part of the whole package. So yeah, this is what

0:37:38I did today. Now I am not set on keeping this. But I have it right now.

0:37:45Okay, Myke. So I have many thoughts here. I wasn't expecting this to be the surprise topic.

0:37:52I thought you bought the Amazon Echo, honestly.

0:37:54That's even...

0:37:55That's what I wrote down.

0:37:56Haha!

0:37:57No, on the Echo, I will get one, but I'm waiting until they launch internationally.

0:38:02Okay. So, Michael. Help me understand here.

0:38:06Yep.

0:38:07So you want to use this iPad Pro as a more portable iPad Pro.

0:38:12So I assume it's going to be dedicated to reading, catching up on articles on Twitter,

0:38:19whereas the bigger iPad Pro goes for multitasking, you know, documents, that type of stuff that

0:38:26requires a big screen.

0:38:28Yes, so let's say for example, invoicing.

0:38:32I send out invoices on a Friday.

0:38:34To do that I use a combination of the FreshBooks app, Google Sheets, Chrome and Safari.

0:38:40So I typically have Chrome and Safari side by side to check in our system and send out

0:38:43the invoices and all that sort of stuff.

0:38:46I wouldn't want to do that on the smaller iPad because I love the basically two portrait

0:38:51apps side by side and multitasking on the 9.7 is cramped.

0:38:58But it's usable but it's cramped but it would be really good for me to read something and

0:39:02take notes in in the Apple Notes app.

0:39:04So like the very simple work that I do, but I do also do more complex work that I like

0:39:10to have the big screen for.

0:39:12So I'm trying to work out if there is like a balance that can be struck between these

0:39:17devices in the same way that I used to do things on the big Mac or like on the Mac Pro

0:39:24or on the iMac or on my Mac Mini and then I would use my MacBook Pro in other scenarios

0:39:30to do other types of work.

0:39:34I also envision a time where, seriously, where I would use both of them at the same time

0:39:38to do some tasks.

0:39:40So like talking about the invoicing, something that I have to do is, you know, we were joking

0:39:44about this last week, people got upset about using three apps at the same time, right?

0:39:48Yes.

0:39:49I could now do that more easily.

0:39:50I could have the small iPad at the side and have that have Google Sheets open and then

0:39:56use the larger iPad for the like, looking at the invoices and sending the invoices out.

0:40:02I actually quite like that as an idea, as a thing that I could do, is to have both iPads

0:40:07going at the same time and using them that way. People might think this sounds crazy, but like

0:40:12think of the iPads as screens rather than devices and I think it becomes a little bit

0:40:18better to understand. So many people use multiple screens in their offices, right? It's that really.

0:40:25But it's like if you think about, if you're able to take yourself out of the idea of you can't do

0:40:30work on the iPad and think about maybe imagine a world where you could do work on the iPad

0:40:36like me and Federico do and then try and take the work that you currently do and the setup

0:40:40and arrangement that you have and move that to those devices and I hope that it can start

0:40:44to make a little bit more sense for people.

0:40:46Because this is the thing that I'm going through a lot more is some of the things that I feel

0:40:51like I'm missing from moving from the Mac to the iPad I can actually replicate by thinking

0:40:56of the iPads more as screens as opposed to these discrete devices.

0:41:02What I want to know, Myke, is the next time you're gonna travel, so let's say you go to

0:41:07WWDC, which iPad are you gonna bring with you?

0:41:10See, in theory, I would be bringing the smaller one with me.

0:41:15That's the theory.

0:41:16Why in theory?

0:41:17Well, so let's say this WWDC, I will still be bringing my MacBook too, because I will

0:41:22need to edit shows.

0:41:24So in that scenario I would just bring the smaller one with me because it's mobile and

0:41:28it's less weight and it's easier to carry.

0:41:31But in the far flung future, if I'm maybe going to work somewhere for the day, I would

0:41:37take the small iPad, but if I'm going away for two weeks I would take the big iPad and

0:41:41that would be the only device that I would have.

0:41:43I actually think that that will be within like a year or something that I'll finally

0:41:47be able to transition a lot more of the editing stuff over to the iPad, but we can talk about

0:41:51that over the next few months I think.

0:41:53Do you imagine you would have to make adjustments to your desk, to your setup for multiple iPads?

0:42:00From a physical standpoint, I'm trying to imagine how you're going to juggle two iPads.

0:42:04I will.

0:42:05Not right now, because I'm going to hopefully be changing this desk soon-ish, but I think

0:42:10that there is a world... and somebody sent me a link to a product, which I haven't checked

0:42:15out yet, but I'm planning on doing.

0:42:20It's like this kind of, it's called the easel.

0:42:24Now I'm not gonna--

0:42:25- Oh, I have an easel.

0:42:26- You have it?

0:42:27Okay.

0:42:28- Yeah, I just received it yesterday.

0:42:29- From Avila Design?

0:42:30- Yes.

0:42:31- They sent me a link and I haven't gotten back to them yet.

0:42:33But this is the type of product that I would assume that would make this easier.

0:42:36And that's why they emailed us, because they've heard the conversations of me and Gray thinking

0:42:42about using these devices.

0:42:44And you could put two iPads on one of these things.

0:42:48So this is the type of thing I assume would make this type of stuff easier for me in the

0:42:52future.

0:42:53I really do see this becoming something that would work for me, this idea of using these

0:43:00multiple devices, but I need to think about it.

0:43:04The story so far in the chat room asked me, I think they say it's serious, it does sound

0:43:09a bit funny, but do you think that you would start mounting iPads?

0:43:14me and Adina got our own place I'm gonna put my old Air 2, I'm gonna mount it in

0:43:19the kitchen because I think that that's a really good use for an old iPad.

0:43:24Fix it to something in the kitchen. So we are gonna do that that's why I'm

0:43:28keeping this around I haven't sold it yet because I want to keep it for that

0:43:31reason. iPad butler. Yeah I know that this is a on the face of it a very crazy

0:43:37idea but I encourage people to just try and take the iOS out of the equation and

0:43:45think of the screens. That's the way that I think this works.

0:43:49From that point of view it makes sense and I remember the the Cortex episode where when

0:43:54Gray said it's sort of like Star Trek you see all of these screens on a desk

0:43:58and it makes sense from that point of view. I'm trying to think would I ever

0:44:04do something like this myself. The first concern would be price of course because

0:44:10you know that's quite an expensive setup. Look, there's no way

0:44:15to tiptoe around this. Like I just spent a thousand pounds today.

0:44:18Yeah. Right? And that is ridiculous. Like I am fully aware of that fact and you

0:44:28know there's nothing I can do about it. That's what it cost me. But I don't know

0:44:32I haven't got anything to say about that. That's the truth. That's what happened today.

0:44:35The other concern that I have is that maybe it would be annoying to manage the same apps on two

0:44:44devices, like update all the apps. I know there's iCloud sync and other types of sync these days,

0:44:50but it's just the overhead of managing two setups at the same time. It's already quite annoying to

0:44:57keep all of my apps? I wonder, I'm thinking about this. So on this week's

0:45:02Cortex, which you probably haven't heard yet, Gray talks about this and he

0:45:08effectively, the way that he deals with it, which I don't know if I would but I'll

0:45:12see, is he treats the devices purely on the things that they do so they don't

0:45:17have the same apps on them because he has the iPad that he writes on, all it

0:45:21has is writing apps, right? So that's the way that he deals with that. I don't

0:45:27know if I will work that way. But yeah, that is something and I considered doing something

0:45:31I've never done before, which is to turn on automatic app downloading on my iPads. I've

0:45:38never used that feature before because it feels frustrating to me. But if I could just

0:45:43turn it on those two devices, I'm more likely to want them to be in sync app wise than I've

0:45:49ever wanted to have that feature before.

0:45:53These are strange times, Myke, because when you said it, I'm like, "Okay, Myke is crazy."

0:46:00But I do see the point, you know? Set aside the problem with the fact that it's expensive

0:46:10and managing apps, but it does sort of make sense to have multiple screens. But what about,

0:46:18Let me ask you, what if Apple comes out with a 15" iPad Pro?

0:46:24I know that it sounds crazy, what if they come out with this really large iPad Pro that

0:46:30lets you use 3-4 apps at the same time?

0:46:33Would you reconsider?

0:46:36In that regard, I would replace the 12" of that one.

0:46:40Because if I work this way, if I end up achieving what I'm attempting to set out to do here,

0:46:46iPad could be 25 inches because it's not gonna leave the home very often.

0:46:51Like that's the theory here that I'm trying to get to is that if I do this the way that

0:46:56I expect my 12 inch iPad Pro will not leave the house very often if at all and I will

0:47:03be able to use the smaller iPad Pro for all of my travel needs.

0:47:08That's the theory that I'm trying to test out here.

0:47:12So what's next?

0:47:14gonna try to see if this works out.

0:47:17Yeah, I don't really know how it's gonna go and I don't really know how I'm gonna use

0:47:21it.

0:47:22You know, I did a deal with Adina on this and I will see, I will try and heavily use

0:47:28this system over the next two weeks and decide if I will return the iPad Pro, the Baby Pro.

0:47:34A quick point on that.

0:47:36First time I heard the term Baby Pro was Serenity mentioned it on upgrade last week.

0:47:40I'm so on board with that notion because this thing does feel like a baby version of the

0:47:45iPad Pro. It's very peculiar because everything's smaller, right? And I know that sounds so

0:47:50stupid but everything is smaller. So the keyboard, right? Everything's just tiny, you know, it's

0:47:55like, ah, tiny little keys. I'll get back to the keyboard in a moment. But yeah, that's

0:48:02the theory of where I'm going to try and take this is to see if I can just make it feel

0:48:07like it's just the small iPad Pro and go from there.

0:48:11So let me talk about some of my feelings of having the device for only a couple of hours.

0:48:16Setting up a new device fixed in portrait orientation is insanity.

0:48:19So these iPads still can only be set up in portrait.

0:48:25So like I set it up, I put the keyboard on, turned it on and it was like, you can't do

0:48:29this you crazy person, turn it the other way around.

0:48:33The smaller software keyboard feels weird after using the big software keyboard.

0:48:38Not having all of the numbers being very easily accessible is annoying.

0:48:42But one of the funny things is, typing on those keys because they're larger and kind

0:48:46of closer together is actually quite nice to type on after using the big one.

0:48:50I think they had their merits, both of them, in all honesty.

0:48:53The large software keyboard on the 12-inch iPad has everything all there.

0:48:59but the smaller one, the key layout is actually a little bit more comfortable for me.

0:49:05And having the split keyboard again is a big deal for me.

0:49:10I've missed that thing.

0:49:12But the majority of my typing will be with the keyboard cover.

0:49:16And for someone who doesn't touch type, the size of the keys is not really a problem,

0:49:22because I tend to be looking anyway and I adjusted to it very quickly when just typing

0:49:26out even just things like passwords today.

0:49:28I really don't like the tab key on this keyboard. It's like it barely exists. It's so small.

0:49:35And if you use iOS with a keyboard now, the tab key is becoming increasingly important.

0:49:41And so it's a shame that it's so ridiculously tiny on this keyboard. But I do like that

0:49:46I have the keyboard on this thing and because I do really like the smart keyboard on my

0:49:50big iPad. So I think it works here too. True tone makes a massive difference. Even in daylight,

0:49:57like it really does make changes to the way the screen looks.

0:50:00And you can turn it on and off when you're setting it up.

0:50:03You can just hold the-- hold, like, turn off,

0:50:05and it just instantly turns it off

0:50:07to show you how the screen looks.

0:50:08And it is like an extension to Night Shift in that way.

0:50:13I'm feeling like I'm going to be enjoying this a lot

0:50:16and then really missing it when I use the other iPad.

0:50:18Because I was like holding my iPhone and the Baby Pro

0:50:22next to each other, and I could really

0:50:24see a difference in the way that the color was being produced in the whites.

0:50:30So they're my feelings so far.

0:50:33Yeah, this is all kind of strange right now.

0:50:37Crazy right?

0:50:38I told you it's a big surprise.

0:50:39I'm pleased that neither of you guessed it though.

0:50:42Yeah, honestly, you're going full CGP, I wasn't expecting that.

0:50:48It's basically just been like, I recorded with Grey on Saturday, I recorded with Jason

0:50:52on Monday and it's just been something I haven't been able to get out of my head.

0:50:58And then the money came through from the upgrade t-shirts.

0:51:00There it is.

0:51:01I was like, "Okay, off we go to the App Store.

0:51:03Thank you everyone that bought upgrade merchandise."

0:51:06I mean, I've had the thought about having a mini in bed reading because the 12.9 inch

0:51:14is just unusable if you're laying down.

0:51:17But I see what you're saying about having the right tool for the job, and that's really

0:51:21what this boils down to. Like no doubt there are people who are already writing

0:51:24emails to us saying that you know this is ridiculous just use a Mac and and I

0:51:29would tell you to stop writing that email but because what this is really

0:51:33about is having the tools that you need to get your job done and just because

0:51:36it's it's not what someone else would do or they quote can't understand it unquote.

0:51:41I will reply to everybody verbally who's writing those emails and tell

0:51:46them to switch to Windows because it's effectively you're asking me to do that.

0:51:51it's the same thing to me. I know that's probably gonna upset all those people even more, but

0:51:57what are you gonna do?

0:51:59I mean, what do you think is nice?

0:52:00It's interesting to me that you're now sort of in the position that I was about a year

0:52:05ago.

0:52:06Oh, I am you now, man. Like, in some ways I've now taken it in a completely new, creative

0:52:11direction.

0:52:12No, but you know, also the struggle to deal with people sending you comments.

0:52:17I sympathize now. Why? Now I sympathize because it's happening.

0:52:22Yes. Yeah, it's, you know, I don't know if I would ever do something like this, but it sounds crazy at first.

0:52:32It's not so crazy when you imagine it as, you know, multiple displays, multiple screens.

0:52:39It does make some sense to me right now.

0:52:43I just wonder, is there going to be a day, maybe like a year from now, where all of your

0:52:48recording and editing is done on two iPads?

0:52:51Just because you have these two devices, these two iPad Pros, and you can do the recording,

0:52:56you can do the editing, and you don't need a Mac anymore.

0:53:00Which would be crazy for you.

0:53:02Just because I sort of identify you and Steven as the type of users who need Macs and will

0:53:08always need a desktop computer.

0:53:11But it's just, you know, the possibility is intriguing, if you ask me.

0:53:15I feel like I'm going to be using a Mac for recording and editing for a long time, even

0:53:24after iOS gains the ability to do exactly what...

0:53:28Let's say iOS gains the exact abilities that I need, right, to do everything that I currently

0:53:34do on my Mac recording and editing wise, I still don't think that I would move immediately.

0:53:39What it would give me is the ability to do all of that stuff on the road a lot easier.

0:53:45I could be in different places and record in different places, but my workflows are

0:53:50really built in on that and I'm not interested in changing them completely.

0:53:55But I definitely see a time in the future where I am doing all of my work on iOS, but

0:54:00I don't think it would be immediately from when those features are available, if that

0:54:06makes sense.

0:54:07And I think you were the same on that as well Federico, like you transitioned things away

0:54:12from the Mac over time, even when the iOS devices could do the things that you needed

0:54:18them to do, right?

0:54:20Well, I do know that if it was possible to record on the iPad, and if you would allow

0:54:27me to do so, I would ditch my Mac.

0:54:32I wouldn't think twice about it.

0:54:34Yeah, I mean now I totally get that.

0:54:37But you know, you were doing things on like a Mac mini server and stuff for a longer period

0:54:41of time.

0:54:42And you know, I guess you were doing some other things on the Mac and then as features

0:54:47were coming over you were slowly moving away.

0:54:49But yeah, I see at this point, if with iOS 10 something happens and you can record on

0:54:56iOS, like I just feel like now it's just a given that you would do that.

0:55:00Yeah.

0:55:01I'm really interested to see how this goes, both in terms of your actual workflow and

0:55:07in terms of how people respond to this topic.

0:55:10Oh yeah, I can't wait.

0:55:12I want to see what happens.

0:55:14If you'll excuse me, I'm going to be changing the feedback email to something other than

0:55:19that.

0:55:20Yeah, good luck.

0:55:21All right, let's take our second break and then we can get into some more planned topics.

0:55:27Sounds good.

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0:57:05So I thought we could revisit the topic of home automation a little bit.

0:57:10And this was really brought on by a couple of news stories that I saw.

0:57:15The first one being a note from Belkin, which make the Wemo product line, they make smart

0:57:22switches, outlets, lights, all sorts of stuff.

0:57:26basically saying that HomeKit is not really going as well as they thought it

0:57:34would and that they are putting HomeKit compatibility on hold for now. It was

0:57:40interesting to me and maybe I just missed this or maybe because Apple has

0:57:44said basically nothing about HomeKit no one knew but HomeKit requires specific

0:57:50hardware like a hardware controller in the device and it is impossible if you

0:57:57smell if you sell some sort of if you smell if you sell some sort of smart

0:58:03home device you can't just have like a firmware update and make it compatible

0:58:06with home kit you have to actually have a physical thing and so you see that in

0:58:11the hue lights right they had regular hue lights and they updated the bridge

0:58:15and that bridge contains I guess the homekit whatever chipset that is that

0:58:21is needed and I think it's a pretty big deal you know we know is a big name in

0:58:24this field and they're basically saying that homekit is something they're

0:58:29putting on hold until it can work for both new and existing users so the

0:58:34subtext there is there they want Apple to change this and be able to have it

0:58:38just in software, just in firmware. And I think it goes to the bigger, you know, the

0:58:45bigger idea of all this home automation stuff is really a mess still, and that it's really

0:58:51unsolved. And real quickly, the chat room suggests, probably rightfully so, that this

0:58:56is perhaps a security issue, that Apple wants to have some sort of trusted device, some

0:59:01trusted identifier in all these devices. And I could totally see that being the case. But,

0:59:06So I want to check in with you guys. Is HomeKit something that you guys are using or have

0:59:15you, like me, replaced it with something else?

0:59:19I have no HomeKit devices. We speak about this stuff a lot on the show and it's something

0:59:25that I'm interested in setting up soon, hopefully not too far in the future. But this is concerning

0:59:32me because this is kind of a real, it's a real kind of example of why the standards

0:59:42and all of the stuff that exists in the home automation space are a bit wonky right now.

0:59:48And it's concerning because I see it as like another symptom or another issue which ends

0:59:53up with you having to replace all of the home devices that you have with something else

0:59:58because something doesn't work with something, or somebody drops support for something, and

1:00:02then you're back out buying hundreds of dollars worth of devices again.

1:00:07Yeah, what about you Federico?

1:00:12I own two different HomeKit devices.

1:00:17So the first one, which is actually two sensors from Elgato, the humidity sensor and an outside

1:00:24temperature sensor.

1:00:26And then I own the Philips Hue lights with the new bridge with HomeKit support.

1:00:32But I'll tell you, ever since I bought the Echo, I've never ever used Siri or, you know,

1:00:41other HomeKit apps again to control my lights, because it's just so easier and so faster

1:00:48and so much more reliable to ask Alexa to turn on the lights or to...

1:00:56All of these devices, they support their own standards for home automation as well.

1:01:01So you can connect the Echo to the Wemo, you can connect the Echo to the Hue lights, and

1:01:08it's just faster for me.

1:01:09And in my experience, either Siri doesn't know what to do or it doesn't understand my

1:01:14commands or it's just slow and for some reason it stops responding. Let's avoid

1:01:20talking about the Apple Watch because it's crazy slow and I don't even want to

1:01:23bring it up. I guess I did, I'm sorry. I just used the Echo. It's much

1:01:29faster and easier and again I'm sort of sad that this is the case. I had

1:01:41big hopes for HomeKit, but if you couple the inconsistencies and the technical problems

1:01:47with the strange availability of HomeKit devices in Italy, like I don't know where to look

1:01:54for HomeKit devices.

1:01:55I go to Amazon Italy and every once in a while there's a new device that supports HomeKit.

1:02:02It's all very fragmented and instead with the Echo I can just log into my accounts and

1:02:09it just works and maybe that's what I wanted Honkit to do.

1:02:13So, you know, I have these two sensors and I use them,

1:02:18but my lights and my Wemo switch,

1:02:22which is of course connected to my espresso maker,

1:02:27those are the two that I use the most.

1:02:29And it's just nice to be able to say,

1:02:30Alexa, turn on the coffee maker.

1:02:32You know, it's just awesome.

1:02:33And it's distant.

1:02:34It really works in less than a second,

1:02:36which is damn impressive.

1:02:38So I'm a big Echo fan right now.

1:02:41- If I were to come with you,

1:02:42the Echo has basically replaced Siri for my use.

1:02:47And all I, now to be fair,

1:02:48all I have are a set of Hue lights

1:02:50that I don't have anything else,

1:02:52really smart home stuff.

1:02:53I do have two Nest products,

1:02:55but as far as things that could work with HomeKit,

1:02:57all I have are the Hue lights.

1:03:00And for me, it's just the flexibility of it.

1:03:05So if I walk in,

1:03:06can just shout at the echo to turn the lights on where with the the watch or

1:03:11even the phone you know I gotta I gotta find it I gotta push a button and it

1:03:15seems to be more more reliable so you know the downside of all this mic like

1:03:23you said is that you can get in a situation where your stuff stops working

1:03:27or you know you have to replace something that you bought six months ago

1:03:31and that's sort of part of a one-two punch that's been leveled at Nest this

1:03:37week. So the the first bit of this is a product that they, the Nest purchase,

1:03:44called the Revolve, which is a kind of like a smart home hub. It controls lights and

1:03:53they bought this company and they are not only sunsetting the hub, they actually

1:03:59stopped selling it back in 2014, but on May 15th the service that runs it is

1:04:04going to be be turned off and so the hub straight up like won't work and so they

1:04:12are making a deliberate decision to break something that people were buying

1:04:15as recently as you know October 2014 and that's problematic for a bunch of

1:04:21reasons but I think for our conversation today the it goes to this this idea that

1:04:27that this is a very fluid market right now.

1:04:29Just because you bought something doesn't mean that it's going to work forever.

1:04:34But it's a problem in particular with Nest because there's a lot of conversation right

1:04:38now with some links in the show notes that Nest is sort of spiraling out of control.

1:04:43There's been stories about Tony Fidell's leadership style and that he's maybe not completely in

1:04:53control of things that are happening at

1:04:54Nest and that the company has

1:04:57not had new products, right? They

1:04:59bought Dropcam and have re-released it as

1:05:02the Nest Cam and I actually have one that

1:05:03I'm kind of playing with right now for a

1:05:05project and it's fine, it's

1:05:08nice enough but I have this thought in the

1:05:10back of my mind like what if this goes

1:05:12away? You know, the Nest Cam uploads all of its

1:05:14stuff to a service and you can go

1:05:15download video and get push notifications,

1:05:17all that stuff, but all that requires

1:05:19Nest to still be in business and even

1:05:22Even though they're part of Alphabet, that's no guarantee.

1:05:24At some point in Alphabet it's going to stop pouring money into Nest, right?

1:05:29What happens if my thermostat was working?

1:05:32I'm very, all of a sudden, very cautious about the Nest products that I have, to the degree

1:05:39that we're thinking about moving.

1:05:41If we do, I'm not positive I would put the Nest thermostat up in the new house.

1:05:46I really like my Nest thermostat that I have now, but I'm not sold that I would keep it

1:05:50long-term.

1:05:51until it's proven that they can do this long term.

1:05:54And the revolve thing is problematic,

1:05:57the leadership stuff's problematic,

1:05:58there's a Reddit thread that we'll have a link to

1:06:02that basically take it with a grain of salt,

1:06:05but someone says they're an engineer at Reddit

1:06:06and like lists all these terrible things that are happening,

1:06:08or an engineer at Nest, sorry.

1:06:10So I don't know, like it's, you know,

1:06:13there's this idea that Apple could come in

1:06:15and like unify all this stuff and provide a backend, right,

1:06:20so that all these various companies,

1:06:22so Philips and Nest and these different companies

1:06:26would not have to provide these services,

1:06:28that HomeKit could become the glue between all this stuff,

1:06:31but that just hasn't happened.

1:06:32And in the wake of that,

1:06:36all of these little independent systems

1:06:38that kind of don't work together now very well

1:06:42are continuing to break down.

1:06:43And what it leads me to think is like,

1:06:45is this is not the moment,

1:06:48this is not the time for smart home stuff,

1:06:50was do we have some of these products

1:06:52and it's just gonna fizzle away

1:06:54because there's no standard?

1:06:56Or is this just part of a natural evolution

1:06:59towards something that will be better?

1:07:01I don't know the answer.

1:07:02- This is why, this whole problem is exactly why

1:07:08it would be good for,

1:07:10this is exactly why it would be good

1:07:15for HomeKit to exist, right?

1:07:17Because if there was a centralized standard that lots of people could use, it would be

1:07:21less concerning that a company shutting down is going to stop your lightbulbs from working.

1:07:26Mm-hmm.

1:07:27Yeah.

1:07:28I mean, I mean, exactly.

1:07:32It's a mess.

1:07:35And I, for one, am holding off.

1:07:36Like, I'm not going to be going any further into this world until it settles down a little

1:07:40bit.

1:07:41Yeah, me neither.

1:07:42I was thinking about, should I get more home elevation devices?

1:07:44after seeing the struggles of HomeKit and the news about the nest, I'd also couple

1:07:50that with the fact that I still don't own a house, still paying rent. I cannot make

1:07:56major modifications, I cannot change the door locks for example. I think I'm on hold right

1:08:03now. I got the lights, I got the WEMO switch, I'm probably just gonna buy another WEMO switch

1:08:08just for convenience, but that's about it. I'm not going crazy with door locks or more

1:08:14lights or you know the thermostat or you know ceiling fans that kind of stuff I'm

1:08:20just gonna wait and see and probably by the time that I would buy a house you

1:08:25know myself I will I will reconsider we'll see. It's kind of it's kind of

1:08:33depressing right like I think we were kind of sold on this idea that if you go

1:08:37get a couple things your house can be like not only smarter but safer more

1:08:42efficient and it feels like that promise has been broken a little bit.

1:08:46I'm just kind of down on the whole thing right now.

1:08:48The products are all good and they work, but it's a shame that the underpinning services

1:08:56are probably the issue, right?

1:08:58That's the worry.

1:08:59Like, Belkin sets up a service, and Apple sets up a service, and Google sets up a service

1:09:04with Nest, and then Android there's one, and then it just goes round and round and round.

1:09:09It just concerns me, I would really like there to be just something that is either open or

1:09:15is held by a big enough company that it's all good.

1:09:19Let's say that Google decides that they want to create some open standard that everybody

1:09:23can adopt.

1:09:24I would be as happy with that as if Apple did it.

1:09:26I just like the idea of there being one company and everybody gets on board with it and we

1:09:31all hope that would be HomeKit but maybe Apple's taken the eye off the ball with HomeKit a

1:09:36little bit.

1:09:38And you know, let's hope that that's not the case going forward.

1:09:42So to close out this week, I wanted to talk a little bit about the iMac, which maybe feels

1:09:48a little weird after Myke's revelation earlier in the show.

1:09:51I'm still using my iMac right now.

1:09:53It's sitting right here in front of me.

1:09:55So I need to do it this week before time goes on, it becomes less relevant.

1:09:58Yeah.

1:09:59So we got this email from Bastian who talks about the conversation we've had about the

1:10:08fusion drive and the hard drive and the iMac, blah blah blah.

1:10:11Anyways, this is what he says.

1:10:14If the iMac could do all SSD and basically if Skylake and the new integrated graphics

1:10:20would come with that, would that allow Apple to reduce the bezels and get rid of the hump

1:10:25and the chin on the iMac?

1:10:27I would love to see a 24 inch screen size

1:10:29in the dimensions of the 21 inch iMac.

1:10:32So the idea that if you look at the front of an iMac,

1:10:35there's still, I mean you've got one in front of you Myke,

1:10:37like the bezel's at least as wide as your thumb

1:10:39around the screen, and there's a chin,

1:10:42and of course it's really thin at the edges,

1:10:44and that keynote is so hilarious to me

1:10:47that like, Phil's just like, look it's so thin,

1:10:49and then he turns and it's like, well it's the same thing,

1:10:51and it's in the back, it's just,

1:10:52it's sort of all kind of lumped together,

1:10:54it's kind of lumpy in the back.

1:10:56And at the time, listeners remembered that I was quite upset

1:11:01that who cares how thin the iMac is

1:11:04if you get rid of the RAM door.

1:11:07Like if that's your trade-off,

1:11:09then you've made the wrong trade-off, right?

1:11:10It's a desktop computer, like who cares?

1:11:13Thickness is not an issue on the desktop,

1:11:15weight's not an issue on the desktop.

1:11:17But I do think that this is an interesting point

1:11:20that the iMac form factor has been the same for a long time,

1:11:25Really, before Retina, they've had this thin,

1:11:28at the edges design.

1:11:29And could Skylake, could something else change that?

1:11:34And so, Myke, you're the only one of us

1:11:35that owns an iMac as much as I want one.

1:11:39Well, you're the one that has a modern iMac.

1:11:41I have lots of old ones.

1:11:42But you've run an iMac, you use it to do your work on.

1:11:46And does, like, do you think about this?

1:11:49Like, does it bother you?

1:11:51Are there things that bother you about

1:11:52the current iMac design that you would like changed?

1:11:55Talking about the form factor, it's quite funny.

1:11:57The iMac has looked like this, just made out of different materials since I bought my first

1:12:01iMac in 2005.

1:12:03Oh yeah, yeah yeah.

1:12:05Like a foot with a chin and a bezel.

1:12:08You know, like I had the white plastic first Intel one.

1:12:11It's been the same since before then even, like the iMac G5 in like 2003.

1:12:15Yeah exactly.

1:12:16So, you know, but it's a good looking machine, but you know, I agree right, with Bastion,

1:12:22of course I would love this thing to just be the screen because that would be awesome,

1:12:26right? Like if you're gonna do stuff like make it super thin and then you're gonna,

1:12:32as you say, which really upsets you, seal the RAM into it, you might as well just take

1:12:36it to its logical conclusion. Otherwise make the thing more expandable again. Like I would

1:12:43like to see that happen. I mean obviously they can't do that, which is why they haven't

1:12:46done that because it would be awesome if they did that, if it was just looked like the Thunderbolt

1:12:51displays that would be awesome and I think we're gonna get there one day I

1:12:55think that's probably the next design for the iMac they'll just keep doing

1:12:59this until they can get rid of all of the outside of it they'll just keep it

1:13:04looking as it is because it's a real kind of unassuming design it looks fine

1:13:09as it is in regards to my iMac in general the things that I would love to

1:13:15see change about it is I would love there to be more I/O and I would love

1:13:19for it to be easier to access. I know why it is what it is, but trying to plug a USB

1:13:26cable into the back of my iMac, it's just scratch, scratch, scratch, scratch. Oh, there

1:13:30it is. And the feeling of scratching a USB cable against anodized aluminum makes me want

1:13:37to jump out of my window.

1:13:39It's not good at all.

1:13:40I hate it so much. It's like, I just, yeah, I can't, I can't deal with it. Um, you know,

1:13:46And I, like most people, I'm sure that use a desktop Mac, I have a USB hub because there's

1:13:52just not enough USB cables, like connectors, there's just not enough.

1:13:58I know that putting them on the front is real ugly, but it was really, it was a lot easier,

1:14:05it would be I think a lot easier if these things were on the side or on the bottom,

1:14:08but that would mean it'd have to be thicker again, which is never gonna happen.

1:14:13It would maybe be nice if there was some way to put them in the foot.

1:14:16I don't know, who knows, but I would love to see something a little bit different about

1:14:19the way that the IO is put in there.

1:14:22Aside from that, the machine itself, performance wise, I have no complaints.

1:14:29I can't do anything to this Mac to make it feel like it's going slowly.

1:14:34It just deals with everything, except one thing, which is gaming.

1:14:39I would like the Mac to be better at gaming and I'm looking at Oculus, right?

1:14:44I bought this Mac, I think it cost like three grand and it's still not powerful enough to

1:14:50run an Oculus Rift.

1:14:51It's a great discussion about this on ATP.

1:14:55You know, I want to be able to plug a VR headset into this Mac.

1:15:00It is the only computer that I own, desktop wise.

1:15:03It's as powerful as I could make it, but it's still not enough.

1:15:08And that's I think my biggest complaint along with many other people right now about my

1:15:12iMac is that there's nothing I can do to make it powerful enough to run an Oculus Rift.

1:15:20And I can buy an Oculus Rift machine for half of the price that it costs me to buy this

1:15:26Mac.

1:15:27And I know that there's many other things that I'm buying and I'm happy that I bought

1:15:30them and given the choice I would still go with the iMac.

1:15:35But it would be really nice if it could have the graphics processes needed to run on Oculus.

1:15:42Yeah, and I think that's one of those trade-offs they make with that design, right?

1:15:50With the way they put the iMac together, there's just not room for a graphics card to drive

1:15:57that sort of thing.

1:15:58And it's just not a priority, right?

1:16:01That's the bigger thing, right?

1:16:02The design is what it is because it was not a priority.

1:16:04And for a long time the iMacs were basically notebooks with sort of rearranged notebook

1:16:10parts that's less true now than it used to be.

1:16:15But no doubt that there are things about that machine that are decisions made by Apple that

1:16:20it just is what it is, right?

1:16:23And I think part of it is honestly that the iMac has a very wide spread.

1:16:28So you can buy that 21 inch non-retina machine with a slow cruddy laptop hard drive in it,

1:16:36actually set one up for somebody, it's not good.

1:16:40Or you can go buy what you bought, right?

1:16:41A loaded 27 inch retina monster that you can do final cut and logic on and do all this

1:16:47stuff and it never breaks a sweat.

1:16:50The gamut for that Mac is just so big now that the Mac Mini and the Mac Pro have been

1:16:56really pushed to the edges and that wasn't true when they introduced the iMac

1:17:00you know that the four that I have in my trunk they were consumer machines and if

1:17:05you needed more power then you went and bought a power Mac and today the that

1:17:10that 2x2 grid of course is gone and the iMac is both a consumer machine and a

1:17:16professional machine and the Mac Pro has become marginalized to people who either

1:17:21need just crazy GPU power or they need the Xeon's and for everyone else the iMac

1:17:28is plenty of machine and you know Myke somebody if when we started we bought a

1:17:34Mac Pro for you and it ended up being a poor choice because well the machine was

1:17:40had hardware issues but also it like you didn't need it like it was overkill the

1:17:44iMac is a better fit for you and same for me doing audio and video stuff like

1:17:49I don't need an iMac.

1:17:5010 years ago I would have needed a Power Mac,

1:17:52but today the iMac just can do so much.

1:17:57But even today, like you said,

1:17:59they leave things on the table.

1:18:00They leave gaming on the table.

1:18:01They leave expansion on the table.

1:18:03They leave the ability to upgrade it later on the table.

1:18:08Until this new design, you could put RAM in all of them.

1:18:12Now you have to have the 27.

1:18:14So I don't know who the iMac is for anymore

1:18:18because it's for everybody and I think it's it's not as laser focused as it

1:18:25once was that this is a consumer machine and and that's fine but I think I think

1:18:30Apple needs to give people options and and the answer is if you want a gaming

1:18:35machine buy a Mac Pro but the Mac Pro is three years old and has not aged well

1:18:42and I would say it's almost to the point where it was before this one showed up

1:18:47of being sort of humorous that it's still for sale and that no one should seriously

1:18:52consider it because it's so outdated.

1:18:55And you know what, if Apple wants to have a machine that can run an Oculus, it should

1:18:59be the Mac Pro and it should be updated on a regular basis and it shouldn't, you know,

1:19:04burn to the ground because it has two GPUs in it.

1:19:07They've got to fix that.

1:19:08And so I thought it was a fascinating little mini topic of what the iMac could do, not

1:19:13Not only from a design perspective, but from a sort of performance and like where it fits in type thing.

1:19:18So I mean, I'll just buy a 12 iPad and just glue them together in here. I mean you could do that

1:19:25I mean, I don't know who would I might at some point you might or you could be Federico and just leave all this behind and

1:19:32Live in a brighter happier future. Yep, and just use a MacBook Air held together the tape when you need it. So

1:19:38No, just use a PlayStation, you know, yep

1:19:42Just before we wrap up today I wanted to provide a little bit of follow up on my iPad which

1:19:48I forgot to mention earlier. I wanted to just talk about gold for a moment.

1:19:55Gold?

1:19:56Because I bought a gold one.

1:19:57Uh huh. I have a gold iPhone.

1:20:00Yeah I know. So this is part of it. One, I'm thinking about buying a gold iPhone so I wanted

1:20:05to see what it was like to have a gold iOS device. I do actually really like the gold

1:20:10I was tempted by rose gold because I keep seeing the rose gold SE everywhere and like

1:20:16I think it's tricking my brain into thinking that's the color I want but I decided not

1:20:20to do that.

1:20:21I have a story about that real quick.

1:20:22Okay.

1:20:23Mary's 6S which she just traded for an SE is rose gold.

1:20:27As I was looking at it last night and for a second I thought maybe I put my sim in this

1:20:30for a couple weeks and like re-equate myself with this size and for me like the rose gold

1:20:36just isn't my first choice. But it is funny, I definitely have thought about it and still

1:20:42may do it. But it's nice to have options. Anyways, you bought a gold iPad!

1:20:47Yeah, so there's two reasons why aside from that, the idea that I just wanted to see what

1:20:53the gold was like. One, I wanted to, I know that these devices are vastly different in

1:20:58size, but I just wanted a visual cue to know which one is which. So I have a white and

1:21:05gold one and I have a black and gray one. Like I just wanted there to be a visual

1:21:10cue of easily distinct thing just by out of the corner of my eye which iPad is

1:21:16which. The other is the gold doesn't matter because I'm gonna cover it in

1:21:21stickers if I keep it so hey ho. If you think it's crazy that I have gold just assume that it

1:21:27won't be gold forever. The only way you can tell is the ring around the Touch ID

1:21:31sensor and I love that being a different color yeah that looks nice that looks

1:21:36nice that that looks nice in gold and rose gold honestly mm-hmm I might go

1:21:41rose gold at the iPhone because I'll put a case on it always so I might go rose

1:21:45gold I'm just upset that you can buy many colors of smart cover and I'm still

1:21:50you know the rest of us with the 12.9 are stuck with gray didn't buy a smart

1:21:54cover because they're ludicrously priced and I have the like 50 pounds or $50 or

1:22:00whatever and you can't use the old ones because they've changed the magnet polarity which

1:22:04is...

1:22:05I think you're gonna have a good reason for that Apple otherwise you're just being mean.

1:22:13Yep.

1:22:14Magnets work differently now.

1:22:15So there you go.

1:22:16Alright that wraps it up.

1:22:17If you want to find the shoutouts for this week head on over to relay.fm/connected/85

1:22:22if you would like to find Federico online he's over at maxstories.net.

1:22:26Steven is at 512pixels.net they are both on Twitter.

1:22:29Steven is @ismh, Federico is @vitiici, and I am @imike, thank you to Squarespace and

1:22:38Braintree for sponsoring this week's episode, but most of all, thank you for listening.

1:22:43We'll be back next time, until then, say goodbye gentlemen.

1:22:46Adios.

1:22:47Adios.