0:00:00*Intro Music*
0:00:06From Relay FM, this is Connected, episode number 34.
0:00:11Today's show is brought to you by our friends over at Igloo, an internet you'll actually like.
0:00:171Password from AgileWits, put passwords in their place.
0:00:21And Wealthfront, the automated investment service that makes it easy to invest your money the right way.
0:00:26My name is Myke Hurley, I'm back, and I'm joined as always by Mr. Steven Hackett.
0:00:31Hey buddy, welcome back to the show.
0:00:33Happy to be here, it's nice to be back with you guys.
0:00:36I'm Mr. Federico Vittucci, hello sir, how are you?
0:00:38- Ben tornato, Myke. - Ah, si si Federico.
0:00:42You don't even know what I said.
0:00:43Well I said yes yes anyway.
0:00:45Yeah, that sounds accurate.
0:00:49How are you Michael?
0:00:50I'm very well.
0:00:51I'm a little bit discombobulated right now,
0:00:53because I came home from my two week trip today,
0:00:56This is the third show I've recorded.
0:00:58I don't, the schedule's all over the place.
0:01:01I don't know where I am, but I'm happy to be here.
0:01:05- Are you at your own computer, Myke?
0:01:09- I am, I am.
0:01:09And it has a couple more stickers, so that's always good.
0:01:13- Can you even put more stickers?
0:01:16- Yeah.
0:01:17- He layers and overlaps.
0:01:18- Wow.
0:01:20- You have to eventually, you run out of space.
0:01:21I think I need a 17 inch, like,
0:01:24just so I can put the stickers on.
0:01:26technically they don't make those anymore.
0:01:28- Well, but everybody knows, Stephen,
0:01:30you can buy old computers, you know?
0:01:32- Really, just make Stephen sad.
0:01:33- I'm gonna write that down
0:01:36that you apparently can buy old computers,
0:01:38and I'm gonna look into this for next time.
0:01:39- Where can I find these computers of old?
0:01:42- My house.
0:01:43Come on over.
0:01:45- I got 'em all here, buddy.
0:01:46- Yeah, we spoke about that on analog this week,
0:01:49or I guess last week, depending on how time works.
0:01:52And so I sent Casey my text file of the collection,
0:01:55and uh...
0:01:57i think it
0:01:57i think it surprised him
0:01:59how many how many things were in there
0:02:01i enjoyed listening to connected this week that was a lot of fun
0:02:06steven have you ever
0:02:07thought about making a museum
0:02:09out of your house
0:02:11for people to come in and visit and view old max?
0:02:14the problem is that there's also people in my house and so what do i do with them
0:02:18when the museum's open? you can put them to work
0:02:22inside the house which is now a museum.
0:02:25- It's fine, I do have a exterior garage workshop
0:02:28that I could turn into a museum,
0:02:29or I could put the family out there
0:02:30and turn the house into a museum.
0:02:32Both are really good ideas.
0:02:33Good ideas.
0:02:36Myke, if someone wanted to find that episode of Analog
0:02:38or any of the links that we were about to discuss,
0:02:40how would they go about that?
0:02:41- Oh, you threw me for a curve ball there.
0:02:43I didn't know what URL I needed to read.
0:02:46The URLs that you will need for this episode of Connected
0:02:50or relay.fm/connected/34 or preferably in your podcast app of choice.
0:02:57You should mention Myke that these links cannot be opened on an Apple Watch because there's
0:03:03no web browser.
0:03:04Interesting.
0:03:05Well, I mean...
0:03:06I feel like it's an important thing to say.
0:03:07That is very important. You cannot open those links in the non-existent web browser in the
0:03:12Apple Watch.
0:03:14So we should do... we should do follow-up.
0:03:17Follow-up.
0:03:18Follow-up.
0:03:19Up first the... Myke stuck. Up first the limited edition connected t-shirt is
0:03:28about to become really limited edition because as I am saying this there are
0:03:33three days and five hours left to purchase the pretty awesome connector
0:03:40shirt so you should go check that out if you haven't ordered one there'll be an
0:03:43image in the show notes I got an email last week so I don't know if Federico or
0:03:47Myke you saw that in the show notes I had that the mock-up from Frank that had
0:03:51the guy with like muscular tattooed arms and several people asked if that were
0:03:57you Myke so I think people think that you have like manly tattooed arms which
0:04:01is cool. Yep one person actually just said to me did you trim your beard like
0:04:07that was all that they said and I found that quite interesting I like that I
0:04:12I like that people think that I am both one, muscular and two, tattooed.
0:04:16Yeah, which...
0:04:18I'm neither.
0:04:20I don't wanna...
0:04:22I'm tattooed, but not that in depth.
0:04:26But I mean, I don't think people were trolling.
0:04:28I think at least the one email that I'm thinking of was, I think, serious.
0:04:32I said no, you know, it's just a mock-up.
0:04:35But if you buy this shirt, you will be muscular and attractive like our model.
0:04:40Do we know who that is?
0:04:44Maybe it's Frank.
0:04:45Maybe it is Frank.
0:04:46Should we invite him on the show?
0:04:47The muscular tattoo guy?
0:04:48Yeah.
0:04:49Sure.
0:04:50It's Brett Kelly.
0:04:51Up first in follow up we have more on weird internet devices.
0:04:57So we've talked about this the last couple of weeks.
0:04:59This needs to be the last time or we end up with the show notes thing again.
0:05:02Yeah.
0:05:03This is awesome.
0:05:04This is the last time we talk about teletext.
0:05:05No, please don't make it the last time.
0:05:07Keep sending these devices.
0:05:09This one, listener Axel Roden, his dad was an IBM employee, or their dad, I don't know what gender is appropriate here.
0:05:20But basically this is a computer modem and a 10 inch black and white CRT screen.
0:05:25And so there's a picture of this in a Wikipedia article that's not in English, but it looks kind of like an old computer with a telephone on top,
0:05:36which is quite frankly adorable.
0:05:40Awesome, amazing.
0:05:43How many objectives do we need for the Teleguide?
0:05:48Thank you Axel for dropping knowledge on the show.
0:05:55I don't know what this Wikipedia page is saying.
0:05:59I see IBM a couple times.
0:06:01But it seems accurate based on the photos.
0:06:04It seems like a great device.
0:06:08Can you imagine working at this workstation, doing all the business here?
0:06:12And if you get a phone call, you just pick the phone right up, like no problem.
0:06:16I'm just on my own computer right now, buddy, how can I help?
0:06:20Oh yeah, it's like, "Can you look at this for me?"
0:06:22Yes I can.
0:06:23I definitely can, because you know what?
0:06:26You've called me on my teleguide.
0:06:28I mean, this is so much better than when you're using an iPhone, like you're doing something,
0:06:34checking Twitter and then you get a phone call. So you gotta stop looking at Twitter.
0:06:39On this thing you could look at, I'm guessing, some kind of command line and also talk on
0:06:44the phone. Can you imagine how much better our podcast would be if we could all just
0:06:48talk to each other? Real innovation stopped with the Teleguide. Which is sad.
0:06:56So while we're speaking about phones and computers, Myke, it turns out, is right this year.
0:07:05So there's a whole list of links in here, one from Marco, one from me, one from our
0:07:10friends at the Hello Internet podcast, and one from Jason at Six Colors, basically saying,
0:07:18for the most part, except for Jason, that Myke was right.
0:07:20The Six Plus has a lot to offer.
0:07:22So spoiler alert for my post.
0:07:24I ended up, I had a six plus if you guys remember
0:07:27that I sort of had as a loner, that went back
0:07:30and I missed it and so I bought one,
0:07:32like mid upgrade cycle which is silly and foolish
0:07:35but it was sort of a you only live once type moment.
0:07:39I think Federico I was texting you from like the parking lot
0:07:42of the Verizon store like I'm getting ready to do this.
0:07:45If you're going to stop me now's the time
0:07:46and you didn't stop me so.
0:07:48- He didn't text me because he knows I would have stopped him
0:07:51- I think I was sleeping.
0:07:52- Like I told Stephen not to do it.
0:07:54Even though I love the 6+ I just think it's so close.
0:07:57But I'm so happy that you did it because Plus Club is awesome and we're happy to have you
0:08:02in Plus Club.
0:08:06I still haven't published my article.
0:08:09I think it's coming real soon.
0:08:12I chose to take my time, you know.
0:08:14I like to do things slow.
0:08:17I think it's coming up better in the end.
0:08:21If I had published my piece like three weeks ago, I think I gained some sort of new perspective
0:08:29on the device, which I think is ultimately beneficial to the article.
0:08:34As usual, I'm kind of the last one to write about this stuff.
0:08:39But I hope it'll be okay in the end.
0:08:42So the posts and the links that we've got are pretty good in Jinyoung.
0:08:47So Stephen is, you know, categorically saying that I'm right.
0:08:51CGP Grey and Hello Internet said that I was right, which was fantastic.
0:08:54I very much enjoyed listening to that.
0:08:56Marco seems to be a little bit more on the fence, but I think leaning into Plus Club
0:09:01territory.
0:09:03And Jason just flat out, I'm very sad, he was just like, "No, I love my six."
0:09:08But what I like about Jason's article is that he used some of my crazy theories that I have.
0:09:14So I was happy with that.
0:09:16Because I don't know if you guys have noticed this, but I have found the camera on the 6+
0:09:21to be the buggiest part of the phone.
0:09:25Sometimes the camera crashes when I take photos, sometimes it just will not take pictures.
0:09:30No, no.
0:09:32You haven't had that?
0:09:33Not at all.
0:09:34Okay.
0:09:35I have to say this hasn't always been the way for me.
0:09:38This has gotten worse over time.
0:09:41My theory about this, because Jason's seen it, I think that Marco said that he'd had
0:09:46seen some issues of it as well.
0:09:48My theory is that there's something in the optical image stabilization, there's like
0:09:51a bug in there and it maybe isn't recognized so quickly or it hasn't been recognized because
0:09:58a lot of engineers in Apple aren't actually using the 6 Plus, so they're not recognizing
0:10:02the bug.
0:10:03Yeah, I mean, I've seen it a couple of times.
0:10:07My thought was that the 6 Plus is more RAM constrained
0:10:11than the 6 'cause of the bigger display
0:10:13and it's gotta do more and that maybe it's just taking,
0:10:16reaching for memory that's not available at the moment.
0:10:20But I've seen it from time to time,
0:10:21definitely nothing consistent though.
0:10:23But I guess we'll see if it gets worse over time.
0:10:26- Yeah, so there you go.
0:10:27I love that this is a thing that is happening,
0:10:31that people are talking about the Plus again, seriously.
0:10:34I think it's fantastic.
0:10:36Because I, as the two of you, really really believe that this is the superior device.
0:10:42Like I just categorically think that this is the better phone.
0:10:46And for me that's based on a bias because I've not actually used a 6,
0:10:51but you both have and you've both switched, so that like vindicates my feeling.
0:10:56How does it feel Myke to be a pioneer?
0:10:58It feels pretty good, you know.
0:11:00Because it's one of those things that I guess that in our little world I was the one,
0:11:04you know, everyone was laughing at me and I was like no no guys seriously trust me and it's taken a while but
0:11:10But you've ended up coming around to our way of thinking which is great. I am a pioneer
0:11:14I do feel like a pioneer Federico. It's a really great way of describing my current mental
0:11:18You're kind of like the the Harry Potter of big phones
0:11:22You're kind of ruining it for me now. You're the chosen one. Oh, I like that again. I liked I like pioneer
0:11:29I like chosen one. I didn't like Harry Potter of big phones
0:11:33that of the three that was my favourite.
0:11:35- What do you like Harry Potter?
0:11:37- I like Harry Potter, I just don't wanna be called
0:11:39the Harry Potter of big phones.
0:11:41It's not, it just doesn't sit very highly.
0:11:46- I would explain the weird scar on your head.
0:11:48- It would indeed, I dropped a phone on my face.
0:11:51And then that's it.
0:11:54Right, let's take a quick break,
0:11:55we have so much to talk about today.
0:11:57I'm really excited to talk about 1Password from Agile Bits.
0:12:00I love these guys, I love this app.
0:12:02And this is one of those things this week
0:12:03where I've been off and we've had 1Password.
0:12:05I've been listening to all the great spots
0:12:06that everyone's been reading and I was waiting to do one.
0:12:09I'm happy that I can read an ad for 1Password right now.
0:12:13For everyone listening to this show,
0:12:15if for some reason you haven't got 1Password,
0:12:18you need to just pause this.
0:12:20Just pause right now, pause wherever you are,
0:12:22go get 1Password.
0:12:24It is an essential piece of software.
0:12:26In the digital world that we live in now,
0:12:28it can be way too easy to just use the same password
0:12:30over and over again because everything,
0:12:32you need to have passwords, you have user accounts
0:12:34for every service that you use,
0:12:36every website you have to have them.
0:12:37It's way too easy to just use one,
0:12:40like just use one word or maybe just change
0:12:44the number every time.
0:12:45But this is such a bad idea because sites get compromised,
0:12:48they get hacked.
0:12:49Even if you are super secret about your password,
0:12:51there's nothing that can stop these sites
0:12:54from getting hacked and your information
0:12:57getting leaked all over the place.
0:12:58and then if you have just, you just use one word
0:13:01for all of the passwords of all of your sites,
0:13:03you know, that you go onto and that you sign up for,
0:13:05people can just get in and they can just go crazy
0:13:07and that's when bad stuff happens.
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0:13:38can get to them is with your secret master password.
0:13:41This is like a sentence or a couple of words that you put together and you put that in
0:13:47and that's your master password that unlocks your vault of where all your passwords are
0:13:52saved.
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0:15:03I love this app. I think you will too.
0:15:05Put passwords in their place with one password.
0:15:08Topic... it was gonna be topic zero, but then it sort of
0:15:12exploded.
0:15:14Topic one this week is the new MacBook. So reviews dropped today.
0:15:18Myke, you just got off the air with Jason doing a special episode of upgrade about the MacBook.
0:15:23He has a review on Macworld and then like a commentary on his site.
0:15:29There's a link to the Verge review which includes a pretty nice video
0:15:34You can actually see and actually we're gonna get to it
0:15:36But you can hear the MacBook where the keyboard sounds and then there's a wired
0:15:40Review as well, so
0:15:44You know, it's it's kind of funny like yesterday. We're obviously gonna get to the watch
0:15:48But yesterday was watch day and today's like oh, yeah, the MacBook is real - don't forget about me. But um
0:15:56What are y'all's impressions from starting to see people's reviews of this thing?
0:16:01I'll let Myke go first.
0:16:04I think it looks pretty and there are many things about the device that are interesting for me.
0:16:10I love that the size of the screen in a body that's smaller than the 11 inch, right?
0:16:16That is such an appealing idea and as like as a portable machine, it sounds fantastic.
0:16:20But the kind of overall feeling that I've got, especially from talking to Jason, is it's kind of like
0:16:26Like, nah.
0:16:29You know, there are good things about it, like there are some really nice things about
0:16:33it, but there are also some things about it that kind of suck, like Jason hates the keyboard,
0:16:39which I'm interested to try out.
0:16:41But it's, you know, the One USB thing still seems a bit like, ah, it just seems like such
0:16:47a pain.
0:16:48Like, in Jason's review he spoke about trying to use Migration Assistant and he had to get
0:16:53like two dongles and an ethernet cable to try and use migration assistant and
0:16:58it's like I just it just seems frustrating and I you know I don't
0:17:03really have a desire for this laptop for a different laptop my laptop's fine I
0:17:08love it I don't need a second laptop like it's just not something that I
0:17:12require I can see why it would be a good machine for a bunch of people but the
0:17:16thing is it's just not the machine for me but I can appreciate why some people
0:17:20might like it, it's just not something that I'm running out to buy.
0:17:23So for me, it is a little complicated because I am in the market for a new Mac.
0:17:32Because obvious reasons I own, um, 2011 Mac MacBook Air and I want to buy a new Mac.
0:17:42But more importantly, I need to buy a new Mac because it's been, I'm guessing more
0:17:49than a year at this point that my MacBook is missing the E key on my keyboard.
0:17:57And I didn't bother fixing it or taking it to the Apple store because I know I will have
0:18:03to pay and I'm just using my MacBook twice a week to record two shows with you guys.
0:18:10And so it's just there, you know, and I know that eventually it is going to die.
0:18:16it is gonna, you know, maybe I will miss more keys or maybe the trackpad will start having
0:18:20some kind of issue.
0:18:22So I know that I need to buy a new Mac because I mean, even if only twice a week, I still
0:18:27need a Mac because, you know, I cannot record shows on the iPad and I don't know, maybe
0:18:34there's those just couple of tasks that I need to do on a Mac, just occasionally.
0:18:40Doesn't happen very often lately but it still happens.
0:18:43Maybe I need to log into my dumb bank website that doesn't allow me to print a PDF on iOS,
0:18:50but it still happens occasionally.
0:18:52So I need a Mac, even if for short amounts of time.
0:18:59And this MacBook could be the kind of Mac that I like, because it's kind of like an
0:19:03iPad, in the sense that it's really light and it cuts down all the power user features.
0:19:09I don't need ports, I don't need external displays, I don't need, I don't know,
0:19:14fusion drives and that kind of complex stuff that you get on more serious Macs.
0:19:19The problem is that, actually two problems, one is not exactly cheap, but I could save a little and then get this MacBook.
0:19:32The problem is that I don't want to get the first generation of this MacBook, because if the MacBook Air is of an indication,
0:19:38I need to wait for the second or third revision.
0:19:42So because I'm not the kind of guy who needs a Mac on a daily basis, and I'm not the kind
0:19:46of guy who wants to buy a Mac every year, like I buy an iPhone or an iPad every year,
0:19:52I don't want to upgrade my Mac next year, if I buy this MacBook this year.
0:19:57So I want to make sure that the next MacBook I'm buying is in a way future proof.
0:20:01I want to make sure that in four years or five years from now it is still the MacBook
0:20:06I can use.
0:20:07So I'm really torn here because I want to use this MacBook, the new MacBook, because
0:20:13I love the idea of first touch, I love the extreme portability, I love the retina display,
0:20:19but I also kind of am concerned because I'm wondering if I wait until next year, if I
0:20:26really make my MacBook Air die eventually of a slow and progressive death, if I just
0:20:33wait until next year and if I wait until the second generation of the new MacBook will
0:20:39I be in a better position five years from now. That's my suggestion.
0:20:44If I was you I would wait until the heirs get a rev and get one of those.
0:20:49I agree.
0:20:50Because I think that the MacBook, that MacBook, the power that you'll get in there will not
0:20:57be good for you in a couple of years time.
0:20:58But will I get a Retina display on the new MacBook Airs?
0:21:03Because I really want that.
0:21:05Yeah, I don't want to have the eventually on.
0:21:11I would expect you would get a Retina display on a MacBook Air sooner than you would get
0:21:16the new MacBook in a power requirement that you would need.
0:21:23So a couple of things, and we'll make it back to the reviews in a second, but you were always
0:21:28going to play the eventual game buying, especially from Apple, it's just kind of the way that
0:21:36it works.
0:21:37"Oh, we gotta wait until they hit 1GHz, oh I'm gonna wait until they switch to Intel,
0:21:40oh I'm gonna wait until they go to SSD."
0:21:42You're always waiting.
0:21:44Will the MacBook Air ever get random displays?
0:21:46I don't know.
0:21:47My thought is the MacBook Air line will actually probably go away or somehow be something different
0:21:53than it is today, you know, long term.
0:21:56way I view it is if you need a machine today say that Macbook Air finally dies
0:22:00tonight when we're done. No it doesn't die tonight, come on. But just say that it
0:22:05does or say it dies tomorrow. No. What is... I refuse. It's a hypothetical. When your computer dies, what do you buy?
0:22:18And I agree with Myke that something like a base model 13-inch Macbook Air
0:22:23might be a better fit for you than the MacBook. Clearly the MacBook is driven
0:22:27somebody who is super portable and is space constrained you know in multiple
0:22:35ways and what they carry maybe where they use the computer that's really you
0:22:40know who comes to mind for me someone who's on the road you know for their
0:22:44job day in and day out you know on airplanes in cars etc for that sort of
0:22:49usage I think the MacBook makes a lot of sense it's got pretty good battery life
0:22:53it's you know physically very small very light and is you know like in the in the
0:22:58verge article like dude is just like walking down the street carrying under
0:23:02his arm like somebody might carry a folder or an iPad I think carrying a
0:23:07laptop under your arm in New York City is probably asking for trouble but they
0:23:11didn't ask me so I think the MacBook Air is probably still for the average user
0:23:16or you know the slightly above average user is still the you know the sub
0:23:22$1,500 notebook to buy. Will you know will the MacBook improve power wise? I
0:23:29think it will. I don't think we're ever going to see a second port on the thing.
0:23:32Like I just you know people go they're going to add a second port next year. I
0:23:35really don't think they will. I think that they've made a statement with this
0:23:38machine and yes the MacBook Air you know so the original MacBook Air we talked
0:23:44about this couple weeks ago came out one USB port micro DVI and headphone jack
0:23:48Jack that was it and then in 2010 or 2011 whenever it was they rev the
0:23:55MacBook Air, changed the form factor, added more USB ports, ended up
0:24:01with Thunderbolt down the road, SD card slot, you know the MacBook Air became
0:24:04more but in that transition the MacBook Air went from the high end of the line
0:24:08it was very expensive to the low end overnight so the MacBook Air kind of
0:24:12became the default machine for a lot of people and I don't see the MacBook doing
0:24:18The MacBook already is pretty close to the bottom of the line price-wise.
0:24:22It competes with the MacBook Air at a few points.
0:24:27I really think they're staging it as a third line, at least for the next couple years.
0:24:33I agree with you that buying a MacBook today for most people isn't a good answer, but I
0:24:37don't know that the answer is going to become more clear in two years.
0:24:40I just don't see where that ends up.
0:24:46I'm really sure about this. My next MacBook is gonna have a Retina display. There's no way I'm
0:24:53buying... Do you have to get a laptop? Well, for the shows I do. What if I'm on vacation and I
0:24:59need to record a show? Oh right, okay, yeah, that makes sense. Do I just take a Mac Mini with me? No,
0:25:04I forgot that you might, that sometimes you record from remote locations. Because I was wondering
0:25:10that because you don't need portability in most instances like many people do because
0:25:15you have that sewn up already you know but I get what you mean like sometimes you do
0:25:20record from other places.
0:25:21>> Like the bathroom.
0:25:22>> Yeah and there's no way I'm getting a lower resolution display again.
0:25:28>> Yeah.
0:25:29>> So.
0:25:30>> Hey.
0:25:31>> I don't know.
0:25:32>> I don't want to get a MacBook Pro.
0:25:33>> I was just about to say.
0:25:34>> It is wasted on me.
0:25:36I don't need a MacBook Pro and I don't want a MacBook Air if it doesn't have a high resolution
0:25:42display.
0:25:43So either I wait or I get a MacBook and I'm gonna regret it for the next five years or
0:25:51again I keep using the MacBook Air and I keep torturing the MacBook Air and watching it
0:25:58die slowly, sadistically.
0:26:02And see that I'm just gonna wait here and you know for the day when eventually the MacBook
0:26:10will say goodbye and I'll be like okay whatever I'm getting a MacBook because it's enough.
0:26:17It's kind of sad when you think about it.
0:26:20It is a little bit.
0:26:21I mean I've seen pictures of that thing it's in pretty sorry shape but you know but you
0:26:27know even going back second and we've talked about this at length but you know your use
0:26:31cases for the Mac of restoring iOS devices and recording podcasts and doing
0:26:36those things you know it's it's you are closer to being able to use a MacBook
0:26:41than someone like I am where I have a MacBook Pro and it's plugged into all
0:26:44sorts of crazy things all day every day it is a for the most part of desktop
0:26:48replacement and yes right now I'm using it in a dark room with a microphone
0:26:52hooked up to it and power but you know I drive external displays and have
0:26:57external drives and all this stuff you know the majority of the time so you're
0:27:01closer I think than the mic or I but you know even hearing you say well it's not
0:27:07quite enough computer you know I'm gonna run into these limitations that's really
0:27:13interesting I really think that paints the picture of who it is for it's you
0:27:16know people who don't even do as many things with the Mac as you do I think
0:27:20that like the MacBook would be perfect for Federico right now but I don't think
0:27:25it would last him for five years I think that's the only problem otherwise I
0:27:29I would say I think you should get it.
0:27:31But if part of it is you wanna have a machine
0:27:34for another four or five years,
0:27:36I don't know if this is the right one then.
0:27:40- Yep, that's the problem.
0:27:42- That's my only thing.
0:27:43It's like I don't, that machine is gonna be
0:27:46really, really hurting in a couple of years time.
0:27:49But it's like I said, it would depend on what happens
0:27:53with the next rev of all of those machines.
0:27:55So maybe you wait another year if you can.
0:27:59If poor little MacBook Air can do it. Yeah, if the MacBook can. I'm gonna wait.
0:28:03That's my strategy.
0:28:06The only thing I wanted to touch on in the reviews, just a couple comments that
0:28:10kind of everybody said is that
0:28:11you know it can get warm but no one seemed to really think that it gets like
0:28:15scorching hot. That's kind of the beauty of the
0:28:18of the Intel Core N that they're using. It's very low power, very low heat output.
0:28:23That it is truly silent because there's no fan, there's no hard drive, it's you know
0:28:27very iPad-like. There's even, Jason mentions it and it's in the Verge video where you plug
0:28:32it in and it shows the iOS battery charging icon, like you know the green filling up,
0:28:39very iPad-like. Yeah and it chimes, it gives the little bling noise when you plug the...
0:28:47Wow. Yeah. Wow, that's... Yeah, because there's no color anymore on the... There's no indication,
0:28:54right? There's no visual indication that you're charging, like that you'd see. So
0:28:58now when you plug it in it makes the iOS noise of plugging in a charge. There's no LED for the, on the
0:29:03MagSafe because there's no MagSafe anymore. The other thing that I really
0:29:07walked away with, this is from from Jason, saying that the he was not a fan of the
0:29:15keyboard that, you know, that is a compromise to make the computer thinner
0:29:20and he hopes Apple views it as that and this keyboard doesn't spread to the
0:29:24other products. Although guys like Jim at The Loop and other reviewers like
0:29:29the keyboard. So I think it's definitely going to be one of those
0:29:32personal things. I hope to go play with one in the coming weeks to type on one
0:29:37to see how it's like. But I do think that this keyboard is going to spread to
0:29:42other Macs. I believe that Apple really thinks this is a superior keyboard for
0:29:49most people you know yeah and I'm all for you know all I can think of I think
0:29:54I said last week is when I type on my MacBook Pro all I can think about is how the
0:29:57keys are like flying off in different directions because that slow-motion
0:30:00video Apple did like it really ruined me mentally in a way that is very deep and
0:30:05profound well but I I do want to try it out you know but even saying this like I
0:30:11remember when they went to the chiclet style on the original MacBook I was like
0:30:14oh I don't want this the power the MacBook Pro and the power book like
0:30:18those had superior keyboards and they change over time and you get used to it
0:30:21so it's you know one of those things that I think even if they do change
0:30:27people get used to I think that Jason were to continue to use this system he
0:30:31would get used to it but it's just something interesting that it seems to
0:30:34be a bigger difference than then maybe I thought it would be and on the verge
0:30:38video and it's obviously it's mic it's not a lot it's not loud like a
0:30:42mechanical keyboard but it sounds very different than my macbook pro which even
0:30:47sounds different than the aluminum Bluetooth keyboards that I use at my desk and a very
0:30:52different sound which I also was not, I didn't really think about beforehand so it's clearly
0:30:56a very different experience typing on this thing and one I hope that if they do spread
0:31:02to other devices that it's worth the adjustment.
0:31:06What's up with the obsession of some tech people with keyboards that make loud noises?
0:31:14Do they share their apartments or houses with other people?
0:31:20Because anytime I'm typing and I'm making loud noises, my girlfriend or whoever's in
0:31:28the house complains because it's not a pleasant noise to hear.
0:31:31Right.
0:31:32So I typed on an Apple extended 2G board for years, up until I had surgery on my elbow
0:31:40a couple years ago and I had to move away from it.
0:31:43And I typed on it because it was extremely comfortable for my hands and I could be very
0:31:49fast on it.
0:31:51The noise was like a nerdy bonus, but it wasn't...
0:31:55So you liked it?
0:31:56I didn't...
0:31:57Yeah, I liked the way it felt and I liked the speed I could do.
0:32:00Now the pressure required for the keys is too much for me because I'm old and brittle.
0:32:07But I think for a lot of people it's the feel and it's the speed they can do.
0:32:10The sound again is nice.
0:32:12It is, you know, the Apple X-Tinted 2 is quite loud and is definitely not the loudest thing
0:32:17on the market.
0:32:19And so if you're in an open office like I am at work or, you know, working at home on
0:32:23an iMac or something and you have family members around, they're gonna be driven insane slowly
0:32:29by your typing.
0:32:30Yeah.
0:32:31I mean I guess I just don't understand why would you purposefully go find a loud keyboard,
0:32:36you know?
0:32:37Yeah, I think it's a side effect.
0:32:38I guess usually you just try to find technology that is silent and quiet and
0:32:44doesn't make you know a big loud mess and instead of some people who are kind of
0:32:49obsessed with it. So maybe you could get the MacBook and then you USB-C to regular USB and
0:32:56USB to ADB and you can use your Apple Xsenda 2. What did you just say? You have to jump
0:33:01through two adapters. You just said the alphabet. I'll find a picture for the
0:33:06I hooked my extended 2 up to a up to my iPad once and it was awesome and
0:33:11Then I realized that I was a crazy person
0:33:13You are so anything else on the MacBook? None of us are buying it
0:33:18None of us seem super interested at this point, but we're gonna wait and see is that the consensus? Yeah
0:33:25Yeah, I'm gonna take a look at it
0:33:26I'm interested to see what the keyboard looks like and feels like I'm interested to see what the machine looks like in general, but
0:33:34I don't have a desire for a second laptop. Like it's not something that I need so it's just not my machine, you know.
0:33:40It's not something that you're looking at you have a Mac Pro, you have a MacBook Pro,
0:33:46you're not tempted to sell the MacBook Pro and move to this because of the tower even?
0:33:50If I use my Mac Pro like most people use their Mac Pros then I probably would think about it but
0:33:59My Mac Pro is very much it has its job that it does and that's all it does, you know
0:34:04Right everything else I do on the MacBook Pro. Gotcha. Okay
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0:35:58Let's talk about the watch. Yeah so reviews came out uh I wasn't expecting reviews until like
0:36:07to maybe like today it came out maybe slightly earlier than I've expected I don't know what the
0:36:14the trend is on these things. I guess they just had too much going on at once
0:36:17so they spread them out a bit right? So they went out two days where they, one day
0:36:21where the Embargoes left on a bunch of different projects. And I haven't
0:36:27having been away I haven't delved into a lot of them. I have watched the
0:36:32Verges review and I have read John Gruber's review. I think I read like 10
0:36:39of them yesterday. I'm kind of exhausted. What was your favorite?
0:36:44Huh that's a good question. I really liked John's during Fireball. I think it was a
0:36:54good mix of like the perspective of a watch person and also the perspective of
0:37:00a tech guy you know. I think it was a good balance between the two. There's
0:37:07There's others that I linked on MacStories that I really liked.
0:37:11There was one from... just trying to remember the name of the website...
0:37:18Liz Plosser, she writes for Self Magazine.
0:37:24She basically gave birth to a baby boy just 5 days before getting an Apple Watch review
0:37:30unit.
0:37:31So she's of course, she's kind of busy and she has a very active lifestyle.
0:37:36And I found her perspective really fascinating, because she's using a watch as a new mom,
0:37:42and she's busy, she's always running around for her family, and to read about the watch,
0:37:52monitoring activity in this context was kind of different from the usual tech review.
0:37:58Also I didn't exactly, it's not that I didn't like it, I didn't fully get the angle that
0:38:06the Verge was going for.
0:38:09I liked the video, I think it was very well made, but I still kinda don't fully get what
0:38:17Neil Aipatale was after.
0:38:19There was a part of the video that I really didn't like, which was when they were in the
0:38:23bar and he was talking with the editor in chief of Eater.
0:38:30And I didn't really understand what his point was like I'm getting too many notifications
0:38:36so it makes me realize that I miss people like I didn't really understand.
0:38:41It's like dude that is totally within your control to turn off what notifications you
0:38:47don't want.
0:38:48This is exactly the point that I want to discuss with you guys.
0:38:54And this is not just from The Verge, but I think The Verge hits this point stronger than
0:39:01other websites.
0:39:04What's the deal with complaining about notifications when you are in control of notifications?
0:39:10So Nilay complains about the fact that the watch is constantly pinging with emails, texts,
0:39:18slack updates, Twitter.
0:39:20Why he says his Instagram likes?
0:39:23Like you don't need push notifications for Instagram likes.
0:39:27Especially because he's a tech guy and he knows how to fiddle around with settings.
0:39:32And also I would argue that most people, not necessarily tech people, at least from what
0:39:39What I see from my friends and my family, they are not stupid.
0:39:43They are not the kind of people that you would imagine by reading tech blogs or twitter that
0:39:48they just say yes to everything.
0:39:50All the people I know, every dialogue they get, they think about it.
0:39:54They think about allowing notifications.
0:39:56They think about allowing location because they know that these dialogues can lead in
0:40:01the future to disturbing stuff like you get too many notifications or maybe an app is
0:40:05constantly checking your location for whatever reason.
0:40:08So there is a basic error in believing that most people, and by most people I mean this
0:40:15average consumer that is often referred to by the tech press as some kind of mythical
0:40:21beast, the average consumer is not stupid, is not dumb and doesn't say okay to everything.
0:40:28That said, you are in control of notifications.
0:40:31You can toggle them on and off and I think that's really the point.
0:40:34What if you buy an Apple Watch and you start wearing the watch and you get no notifications
0:40:40because the default behavior is to opt-in?
0:40:45So in that case, the experience for most people would be worse because you buy a watch and
0:40:53you start wearing the watch with some sort of expectation of the watch displaying notifications,
0:40:58but then because the default behavior is opt-in, you need to go into an app and enable notifications.
0:41:03Instead, because the default behavior is to opt out, you start getting notifications right
0:41:09away and you can always turn them off.
0:41:12So I kind of don't understand the perspective of The Verge.
0:41:14It seems to me like it's the... some kind of a syndrome from the average tech guy who
0:41:24enables all sorts of notifications, with the difference that on the iPhone, over the years,
0:41:30have learned how to deal with them, they have learned how to ignore notifications on the
0:41:36iPhone.
0:41:37On the watch, because it's new, it's like "Oh my god, I'm getting all these notifications!"
0:41:42You already get all these notifications on your iPhone.
0:41:45So I'm really puzzled by this angle.
0:41:48I really liked the overall of the video, I thought it was really good, I thought some
0:41:53of the criticism I had was really good.
0:41:56showing it like they were showing some just like weird like loading like
0:42:01everything seems like it's a slow and needed to load right so that was like
0:42:04okay that looked interesting but he was trying to I think he was trying to hit a
0:42:10philosophical point which didn't really land for me which was like now I see now
0:42:16I'm tapped on the wrist about his notifications it makes me realize how
0:42:20much I ignore people. It's like, no man, like, it vibrates in your pocket already, like it's
0:42:26totally fine. I can see what he was, I can see he was trying to get somewhere but it
0:42:35just didn't land for me and that was, that's my only criticism for what I thought was a
0:42:40good review but I think it was a pretty big point he was trying to make.
0:42:45And again, I find it personally, I don't want to criticize the way that the Verge assigns
0:42:51scores, because they are still using a score-based system for their reviews.
0:42:55I don't want to criticize the way that they choose votes.
0:42:59But it seems to me a little strange that the Apple Watch gets a 7 and the Motorola 360
0:43:06gets an 8.1.
0:43:09I don't know, because I don't have a watch.
0:43:12But again, it sounds like this aspect of the notifications, it had a big role in getting
0:43:18the score down, and I sort of don't understand, because it again, feels to me like he's a
0:43:25tech guy with too many notifications, too many apps, and the watch makes him realize
0:43:30that he has too many apps and notifications, but that's not really a problem of the watch,
0:43:34maybe he should curate a little bit more the list of apps that send him notifications.
0:43:40There was one thing that Neil I said that I thought was really, I really agree with.
0:43:46The fact that the watch doesn't come with a stand or anything.
0:43:49It's kind of just like, here's a cable, go at it.
0:43:53It feels like there should be more in the box.
0:43:57Like akin to what the, you know, your first iPod, right, had a bunch of stuff in the box.
0:44:02And I think that there should be something a little bit more like that this time.
0:44:07Something basic even.
0:44:08but it feels like just saying here's your cable,
0:44:09here's your watch, go at it, does feel a bit.
0:44:12- Yeah, I agree with that, yeah.
0:44:14- So a couple of things.
0:44:16I too do not want to get into the why scoring things
0:44:22and reviews is a bad idea.
0:44:24- Yep.
0:44:25- But I would say in their defense
0:44:26that those devices came out at separate times
0:44:29and answer separate questions to separate markets.
0:44:32I don't think they're a direct comparison.
0:44:34Anyways, I think you and I had a misunderstanding
0:44:37Twitter because I think you were like
0:44:38yeah we get a final connected and you
0:44:41know I agree with you that for most
0:44:43people the experience of if notifications
0:44:46were opt-in my watch isn't doing
0:44:48anything and that's bad and I agree with
0:44:51you that anyone who has Instagram likes
0:44:55on on their phone and pushed to their
0:44:57watch have no room to complain that they
0:44:59have too many notifications because
0:45:01that's a ridiculous notification to
0:45:02leave on especially if you're popular
0:45:04like I assume Eli Patel is on Instagram. What I think what he was driving at and
0:45:11I think they exaggerate it to make the point is that there is a social
0:45:18awkwardness around checking your watch. We spoke about this months ago on the
0:45:22show where you know if I'm in a meeting and I look down at my watch if anyone
0:45:27notices me doing that they're gonna think that I'm bored or that I'm trying
0:45:30to end the meeting or that you know I've double booked I need to get somewhere
0:45:34and is generally perceived as something as a rude gesture, especially in my world
0:45:42as meetings right now with work. So I think that's what he was driving toward
0:45:46and I think they exaggerated it. He said it right back then.
0:45:50I agree with that. I understand that point. It was the second half of that little skit that
0:45:55Right. Oh yeah, the whole thing was cheesy. But I think they exaggerated it to make
0:46:00the point that the way I view it and the way that you know we're gonna talk about
0:46:05the apps in a second the way I think about the watch more and more as
0:46:08pre-orders are just now a couple hours away is that I think my interaction with
0:46:14the watch and apps and notifications is going to be extremely limited I really
0:46:19depending on how you know depending on how fine grained the control is I'm not
0:46:23gonna have a lot of stuff hit my wrist I already have most notifications on my
0:46:27phone turned off. I have you know a lot of stuff to manually check and emails
0:46:33aren't coming in and lighting up my screen all day long and so I think that
0:46:38if you're that sort of user where you already care about the notifications
0:46:43that come to your phone I think the watch is gonna be even more so. Like I
0:46:47really want my watch to vibrate if I have a task due, an alarm or my wife
0:46:51sends me a text. Like very few things and very few people are gonna have the right
0:46:56to make that thing go off at least at first and we'll see how how disruptive
0:47:02it is and I think the idea of you looking at your watch in a meeting that
0:47:06being rude is going to fade away very quickly because people are gonna have
0:47:09smartwatches. I was about to make that I was gonna say that because I felt that
0:47:13from what John Gruber was saying as well it's like yeah but it's just this is a
0:47:18march of change like looking at your phone it was still can be a bit like hey
0:47:24you got somewhere to be or whatever, it's still just something that people do and we all do it,
0:47:29so we kind of let it go. So it's going to take a little bit of time, but looking at your wrist,
0:47:34it's going to mean something new. Because that's the social behavior from the traditional watch
0:47:43kind of people. You check the watch because you need to check the time. Now you will check the
0:47:47watch to do all sorts of stuff. So it'll be different over time, I think. Right. And I
0:47:53I think there will be that awkward phase where if you were an early iPhone owner like I was,
0:47:58it was really awkward to have an iPhone at first.
0:48:02And I was very hesitant to pull it out.
0:48:06Not only because people would ask if that was the iPhone and want to see it, right?
0:48:09Then you're drawing it into yourself in a social scene that I don't want at least, and
0:48:12I don't want to be followed out and mugged by the guy at the other end of the bar.
0:48:16But there's going to be that awkward phase, and I think it's going to be more pronounced
0:48:20than it was with a smartphone because again people are already doing things on their phones.
0:48:26Everyone sat in study hall and played snake on their Nokia, right?
0:48:29Like it's just a thing people did.
0:48:32I think we'll see how that goes.
0:48:33I do think there's going to be a very awkward period for early adopters, not only socially
0:48:38but you know the question of why is that any better.
0:48:42I had that conversation with a co-worker just yesterday of some of us talking about the
0:48:46several people at work are gonna be up at 2 a.m. to order it and she's like, "Well, why
0:48:51would you do that? You can just do stuff on your phone." And the explanation of,
0:48:55well, you know, you know, in theory it'll mean less time on your phone because, you
0:48:59know, it's quick things and you can quickly check things and get back to your day.
0:49:01That didn't really register as like a problem or a solution to the problem
0:49:06that she didn't see existing. So I think there's gonna be a lot of that, like, you
0:49:11having to justify to people that you bought one, which is insane, right? Like,
0:49:14you really shouldn't matter but I think it will.
0:49:17It's like going back to 2007 why do you need email on your phone?
0:49:21Exactly.
0:49:22It's all that idea right?
0:49:24Just about to say that, thank you Myke.
0:49:26Yeah.
0:49:27We just, we see...
0:49:29Or even better, why would you need a full web browser on your phone?
0:49:34Yeah, exactly.
0:49:36Like we either see the utility of it or we see, or we agree with what the marketing message is right?
0:49:43messages right and when we see the marketing message it's like yeah that
0:49:46resonates with me I think I would get use out of that and then kind of move on
0:49:51from there like and then eventually it ends up pulling pulling people along
0:49:57with everybody else you know yeah um so I thought I thought it'd be worthwhile
0:50:01to talk about the what was my biggest depression and I think I think y'all's
0:50:08as well from chatting over the last couple days. Of all these reviews you know they
0:50:14all say battery life is pretty good you know you really got to push it to be out by
0:50:17the end of the day that's good stuff but what almost everyone said is that
0:50:21watch kit apps are slow especially when they're moving large amounts of data or
0:50:26location information from the phone to the watch so to recap you know these
0:50:31apps you know on the 24th you unbox your watch and you put Evernote and
0:50:35overcast on it. Those aren't real apps, they're projections from the iPhone over
0:50:40Bluetooth and Wi-Fi to your device. So it's not native code if the phone is
0:50:46gone the watch is you know less useful. And that what we should have been
0:50:52realizing all along and something that you know I didn't really think about too
0:50:55deeply until these reviews came out is that that's a very slow way to do
0:50:58computing. It's happening remotely, it's transferring over wireless which
0:51:02it can have all sorts of issues and the Wi-Fi hiccups or you know your Bluetooth
0:51:06drops out like I get in my car and once a week my car is just forgotten that my
0:51:10iPhone exists and I have to go and repair it like that sort of stuff is
0:51:14going to hamper these watch kit apps because they're they're tied they're
0:51:18completely dependent on the phone. And also they're mostly images. Yeah yeah
0:51:23you're just pushing a slideshow and so you know the question is and one that I
0:51:30think will be answered over time is, is this going to hurt the watch's sort of
0:51:35initial launch? That are people going to download these apps with expectations
0:51:39that they will, you know, like, if someone's gonna buy an Apple Watch early on
0:51:43they're probably nerdier than the average Joe, but most of them aren't in
0:51:48the world that we live in of like getting talked to Underscore last week
0:51:52about like the ins and outs of WatchKit and they're just gonna think, oh, you
0:51:55know, this thing has apps and are those people going to be disappointed or
0:51:58frustrated that these apps don't run the way that they think they should based on
0:52:03having an iPhone for seven years. I don't know if that's gonna be a problem.
0:52:06I think I will be. I think I'm gonna be frustrated.
0:52:09I think that in the long run WatchKit apps will be remembered like we remember
0:52:14web apps on the iPhone. Yeah. But for us...
0:52:18It's the simple analog to make between the two. I agree with that.
0:52:21For the first year or for the first six months, I don't know, we will be
0:52:26annoyed by the limitations of the WatchKit apps.
0:52:30Will it be a problem?
0:52:32Like will it actually damage the reputation of the watch and the software of the watch?
0:52:38I don't know because I'm not a genius.
0:52:45I'm guessing that Apple will want developers to switch over to the native SDK as soon as
0:52:52possible.
0:52:53I wouldn't be surprised to... you know, the watch comes out in April and in not even six months
0:52:59you get the upgrade to the native SDK and you get like a faster watch, you know,
0:53:05magically almost, just with software updates. So maybe these first six months
0:53:11will be annoying but according to I think a couple of reviews, Apple is
0:53:14working on an update to make things a little faster at least, but it's not
0:53:21available to reviewers right now. Which would be, you know, definitely
0:53:25welcome and, you know, they still have two weeks to get that rolled out and,
0:53:30you know, maybe that you open the watch and it's got an update immediately, which
0:53:32is not a great user experience but they, you know, you can go buy a MacBook
0:53:36Pro that still comes with, you know, Mavericks on it. The MacBooks,
0:53:40they're shipping with 10.10.2. Yeah, I mean, 10.10.3 is out now, like it's...
0:53:47Yeah, well, I mean, you know, things happen, they put them in a box and then they ship
0:53:50them. So native apps I think will be a big part of it that you know you're not
0:53:55relying on the phone to beam images over a wireless internet connection which
0:54:02sounds like something out of the future but running locally on the S1 chipset
0:54:06will definitely be faster I mean there's no way that it couldn't be really but
0:54:12you know I do have that thought in the back of my mind that if we're going to
0:54:14be you know we're gonna be annoyed that we're gonna know why and we're gonna
0:54:18to know that there's a future coming that could be better.
0:54:22And I just wonder about those other early adopters who might not be following this stuff
0:54:27as closely if they're going to be unaware that that's going on.
0:54:33Just think about this.
0:54:35Most people, or maybe not most people, millions of people will want an Apple Watch for the
0:54:40holiday season.
0:54:42by Thanksgiving time or Christmas time the watch will likely have a native SDK.
0:54:49Yeah, I mean, yeah, similarly we'll see it this summer.
0:54:54And also, I wouldn't be surprised if Apple called that Apple Watch OS 2 or whatever,
0:55:01and so I think people know that Apple's products get better generation after generation, so
0:55:09So it's like people said, "Oh, the first one's rubbish, but the next one will probably be
0:55:13better because the first one's really slow, the apps are really slow."
0:55:16But they're releasing OS/2 and it sounds like they've sped all the apps up.
0:55:23I totally get your point, but I think now, by now, people are accustomed to the fact
0:55:30that Apple's products get better over time.
0:55:33So I think people might just think that's going to be the case anyway.
0:55:37This is not going to help that thought process.
0:55:41I hear it so many times, you hear it when the retina imac comes out of, "Oh, don't buy
0:55:44a Gen 1 Apple product."
0:55:46I hear that from normal, non-nerdy people who just casually follow the company.
0:55:51Like, "Oh, don't buy the first one."
0:55:53Also from me, just a few minutes ago.
0:55:55Also from Federico, just a couple of minutes ago on this show, a premier Apple podcast.
0:56:01We're giving you the same advice.
0:56:02I'm sorry, everyone.
0:56:03No, no.
0:56:04- No, no, but I'm not saying that's a right or wrong assumption.
0:56:07There are definitely cases where I think that's true.
0:56:10Like I even thought it, and I maybe even said it about the retina iMac of like, "Ah, you
0:56:14know, the first retina Macs have always been a little weird, like that first 15 inch, you
0:56:17know, had image retention and issues."
0:56:21But this is definitely not going to help that.
0:56:23Like if Apple is not doing anything to shake that philosophy that people have.
0:56:30But at the same time, like, this is the way technology works, that things evolve and things
0:56:36get out into the world and they get iterated on and improved on.
0:56:40Are we going to see watchOS 2.0 this summer with apps?
0:56:44I think we will.
0:56:45Are we going to see a faster Apple Watch in the fall or early next year with a faster
0:56:51chipset, better processor, maybe that screen will be laminated?
0:56:56I'm not so sure about but I do think that there is a you know there's a price to pay to be an early adopter that
0:57:02you know we're gonna talk about it, but
0:57:03At least one of us is going to be up that tonight or you know tomorrow morning
0:57:08Ordering one of these things and there's always a cost associated with that
0:57:11But I agree with you Myke
0:57:14I think it I think it would be frustrating for us who know that a brighter future is around the corner
0:57:19But I think too it might help balance
0:57:21You know the I don't want to do a lot of stuff on this thing
0:57:24You know and so maybe that the the awkwardness of watch kit will sort of like
0:57:28Temper what I want to do with it day to day, so it's not all negative
0:57:32I don't think it's just I think there's gonna be a perception issue with some users that Apple's gonna have to deal with
0:57:36But the real question is can we have a funeral for Myke's pebble?
0:57:42Yes, a little guy has a little relay FM watch face on him, you know, he's so cool
0:57:49I'm gonna miss him because you know what?
0:57:51I mean and this is one of those things like in reading Gruber's review and he
0:57:54talks about like looking down and seeing the time. I get that with the purple.
0:58:00Yeah that worries me on the Apple watch. Every time I look at the purple I see the
0:58:04current time. Like it illuminates if I raise my wrist but you don't always need
0:58:09it to illuminate. That is gonna be really frustrating. Like I can feel that I'm
0:58:14gonna be annoyed by that.
0:58:16serious question do you guys keep a traditional watch face or do you look at
0:58:23time as a digital clock? I like digital clocks. Okay, same. I have one of these.
0:58:29Steven, what about you? I have one of these. Steven uses an old pocket watch. So the watch I'm wearing today is a
0:58:36Casio calculator watch so if we need to do some math after the show I can help
0:58:40us out. We'll find a link in the show notes. The other watch I wear
0:58:47that's a little bit dressier is a mechanical watch. It's you know
0:58:51self-winding and it's you know black face with you know sweeping hands like
0:58:56not digital at all. Nothing is digital about that watch. There's not even a
0:58:59battery. So I like both as far as like what watch face I'm gonna end up on the
0:59:04Apple Watch. I don't really know like I like the idea that I could put my next
0:59:08calendar thing on there but is that going to be helpful long term or am I
0:59:11going to end up with something simple? I'm really curious I think I'm gonna play a
0:59:15lot with I think all of us will play a lot with watch faces on the Apple watch
0:59:19until we kind of see what feels good. Yeah I just I just just thought you use
0:59:25the sundial instead of the clock. So that's good to know. Thank you Stephen.
0:59:32So it's you know so we have talked about in the past what we would be ordering
0:59:38and it sounds like some of us have changed our minds a little bit.
0:59:41So Federico, you sent us a very interesting screenshot in Slack earlier.
0:59:44What are you doing?
0:59:46Okay.
0:59:48I feel like I need to prepare for...
0:59:50Should we go back to the start of this story,
0:59:52like to what happened between me and you yesterday?
0:59:55Was it yesterday or the day before yesterday?
0:59:57I think it was yesterday, actually.
1:00:00So my plan was to ask Michael to buy an Apple Watch for me and of course from the UK and ship it to me to Italy.
1:00:14And according to rumors and now according to Apple which has a press release out this morning,
1:00:21there's going to be... the Apple Watch is only going to be available from online stores
1:00:27and customers are limited to one watch per customer. At least that's what I heard. So,
1:00:34of course, we went through some kind of back and forth with Myke because he was like, "I'm gonna
1:00:38buy an Apple watch for you and I'm gonna ship it to you because it's my pleasure mate." You know,
1:00:43all the kinds of things Myke says. Yeah. And I'm like, "Oh, thank you, Myke. I mean, that would be
1:00:49really awesome." You know, our kind of conversation. And then of course we realized that this wouldn't
1:00:55be possible and so I made other plans and yes so I'm gonna go with the
1:01:04conclusion first I will wake up tomorrow morning at my local 9 a.m. actually you
1:01:11know a few minutes before that because I need to get to my computer sip a cup of
1:01:15coffee and just get ready I will wake up at about 8 45 in the morning and I will
1:01:22buy an Apple Watch from Germany. That's my plan. Okay, so I have a friend. I have a dear
1:01:32friend in Germany. And thanks to this friend, I will be able to buy a watch, get the watch
1:01:40to my friend, and my friend will get the watch to me. And hopefully we'll be able to, you
1:01:48to receive the watch on the 24th or maybe instead of Friday maybe on Monday and it'll ship it to me
1:01:55so I'm hoping that using the fastest shipping option available I will have the Apple Watch by the week after the launch.
1:02:07I'm gonna, you know, there will be a bit of a cost concern for shipments and stuff
1:02:16but that's a compromise I'm willing to accept.
1:02:21So don't ask me about the technicalities of my plan
1:02:25but it's going down tomorrow morning.
1:02:30Hopefully, I'm just concerned that the Apple website will crash.
1:02:35I got get the app man you gotta go for the...
1:02:38Yeah, see that's really nice.
1:02:41Can I change the country in the app?
1:02:45It's tied to your...
1:02:46So the first question I have is that the Apple ID I use for iTunes has different billing
1:02:52than the Apple ID I'm going to use to order the watch and so I've got to go in there and
1:02:56change my billing over because the...
1:02:58Business expense.
1:02:59the App Store uses the built-in system Apple ID. I will say that if you are going to buy,
1:03:10if you listened to this beforehand, the App Store holds up much better. The App Store
1:03:14app on iOS holds up much better than the website during these things. I'll probably have both.
1:03:19It's going to be 2 a.m. for me, which is really disappointing. But I've done it for several
1:03:23hours.
1:03:24I'm going to be rolling multiple browsers like it's going to be a party.
1:03:28Yeah, so Federico, what's your final verdict on the model you're going to purchase?
1:03:33I'm gonna get an Apple Watch Sport Space Gay with the black band.
1:03:42So that's a down from what you had said weeks ago, I believe.
1:03:48Why?
1:03:49Because I read the reviews and I feel like, again, I'm gonna be that guy, because it's
1:03:58a first generation product, I feel like I wanna wait at least until next year before
1:04:06I drop that kind of money on the Apple Watch.
1:04:10Because the one that I would want to wear on a daily basis would be the Apple Watch,
1:04:17So the steel one, the space black with the link bracelet.
1:04:22That's the one that I want, but it'll be 1500 euros.
1:04:27So that's quite a bit of money for me, and I feel like because the Apple Watch is gonna
1:04:33get better, I feel like for this first generation to get accustomed to the watch, it is better
1:04:41for me to save a little money, get the basic Apple Watch, which according to the reviews
1:04:46is still very much a fine watch, especially for physical activity, which is very important
1:04:51to me.
1:04:52So it's not like I'm getting some cheap watch that I really don't want to wear.
1:04:58So I'm getting a good watch, I'm saving a bit of money, and next year I'll see if maybe
1:05:03I want to spend a little more, get a fancier watch with an upgrade.
1:05:10But I want to wait.
1:05:11I want to wait until next year.
1:05:14At least.
1:05:15Yeah, I think there are a lot of people in that situation where after saying the reviews
1:05:20and after kind of thinking about it over might be downgrading, but before I tell you that
1:05:27I'm doing the opposite, Myke, what's your plan?
1:05:31So I had come to the decision this week that I was going to get the Apple Watch.
1:05:38I don't know what it was, I was just looking through them again, I was looking through
1:05:40them with my girlfriend and we were looking at the balance and stuff like that, I was
1:05:44like no I think I'm gonna go for the watch then I read the reviews like
1:05:48Federica and I was like yeah I'm gonna go back to sport so I'm gonna be going to my
1:05:53original plan I'm gonna be getting the sport I'm gonna be getting the blue
1:05:56Flora Mastema. Is that how it said? Something like that. I'm gonna be getting the blue one I want the
1:06:05black strap I think but what I'm gonna do I'm gonna but you can't get the black
1:06:09strap with the aluminium the silver aluminium one which is what I prefer
1:06:14because I still believe, I don't know why I believe this, but I still believe that the black one's gonna chip like the five
1:06:20like the iPhone 5 did. Yeah, so the one
1:06:24Federico is gonna buy might be all banged up in a year. Mm-hmm. Sorry Federico, but that's just my
1:06:29conspiracy theory. I'm sure it'll be fine. I'm sure they've got that sorted out by now, but I don't know
1:06:35I just and plus I I can see why people would like it. I just want the silver one. I like the silver one
1:06:40So I'm gonna get that one and then I'm gonna try and also tomorrow book an appointment
1:06:46At the store to try and hopefully go into a store and try one out before the show next week
1:06:51That's my other plan
1:06:54Is to make sure I can try and get down to the store and then when I'm at the store
1:06:57I'm gonna choose what other band I want to buy because I would like to have
1:07:01One of a band I'm leaning towards a level loop
1:07:05But I want to take a look at those a little bit more
1:07:08Gotcha, so
1:07:10Yeah, the 2 a.m. Thing is gonna be exciting
1:07:13I had I said on the show two weeks ago that I was gonna do the same thing Federico is doing the 42 millimeter
1:07:19space gray aluminum black screen and
1:07:25Have that favor favorited or whatever it is in my account, but I also have favorited the
1:07:31Apple watch the stainless steel with the black band
1:07:36Just because I get more nervous about the front of that not being the sapphire cover as someone who bangs their watch into things
1:07:44all day long
1:07:46I worry about the durability. It's a little bit more money. I
1:07:50understand that I will not get that money back out of it at the back end like I'm sure the
1:07:55Gazelle pricing on Apple watches, you know, I got time will tell how that how that market plays out
1:08:00but I do I do worry a little bit about the
1:08:06About that cover glass and so I and I've heard you know a lot of people have the reviewers and you know people who have had
1:08:11Time with them. I've said that the steel one is really nice and the weight is not a
1:08:16Whole lot more than than the sport one. So we'll see what happens in the middle of the night
1:08:21Hopefully I don't order both
1:08:24but
1:08:25I'm leaning towards the the stainless steel with the black sport band and and like you Myke will probably
1:08:30Pick up a couple other bands down the road like a white one or a blue one or something to spice it up
1:08:35Yeah, I'm thinking still that the bands that we buy now will still be good in a while like
1:08:42That's just my feeling
1:08:45It seems pretty obvious
1:08:47But it's just what I like to believe that the bands that we buy now we can use on the next maybe
1:08:51Generation or two with the Apple watch I would hope so, you know looking at them even if that thing gets dramatically thinner
1:08:56The way those grooves work, you know are pretty independent of how thick the device is
1:09:00So I would imagine that you know
1:09:03Maybe in a couple years, but you know honestly like as someone who's worn a watch pretty consistently
1:09:07If you wear a watch every day you got to replace the band eventually because it wears out or cracks or you know
1:09:12So I think that's reasonable and the sport bands are not
1:09:16I mean all the bands are cheaper than I thought there would be in the sport band is pretty affordable
1:09:20So if you know you crack it or you know something happens to it, and you need to replace it
1:09:24It's definitely not the end of the world especially if you you know buy the $500 watch
1:09:29So yeah, well, I guess we'll report back.
1:09:32- We'll be up. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:09:33- We'll be awake.
1:09:34- I think I'll be in the,
1:09:35maybe we'll open up the relay that will be in IRC,
1:09:39talking with people, so.
1:09:40- That's not a bad idea, actually.
1:09:42- At first I can't-- - You should livestream.
1:09:43- For a second, the other night,
1:09:44I was like, we should livestream,
1:09:45but I was like, A, it's gonna be 2 a.m. for me.
1:09:49Like, I don't wanna be talking to anyone at 2 a.m.,
1:09:54and let alone like in a house with sleeping children.
1:09:56Like, the idea quickly fell apart for me,
1:09:58me live streaming but I think we can hang out in the chat room. Yeah cool. Right we want to talk
1:10:05about the Steve Jobs book a bit but before we do that should we thank our third sponsor?
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1:11:33So becoming Steve Jobs, we've got a couple links in the show notes, one to Amazon.
1:11:39If you haven't read Becoming Steve Jobs, I don't think we're going to spoil it in the
1:11:45Well, we might. I would just proceed with caution if we start getting spoil- spoilery
1:11:50come back later. But, so it's a book out, you can get a hardcover, I read it on the
1:11:55Kindle. Myke, you did an audiobook. Lots of, lots of fun ways to enjoy it. It's best, I
1:12:06think my comments reflect things that I also heard in a podcast. Gruber
1:12:12interviewed the two writers of the book. There's a link to that in the show notes as
1:12:15well as part of the Applesore Talks thing, part of the sort of thing
1:12:20that you did in London about becoming a professional podcasters. Same type of
1:12:24thing right? So which I think is really cool I like that the stores are doing
1:12:27sort of that creative type work again which is a lot of fun. So instead of
1:12:34going through the book chronologically what I've done is I've broken my
1:12:39thoughts into topics and we'll see how far we get this might spill into next
1:12:44week because we're already over an hour in but I kind of wanted to start with
1:12:49the the meta discussion of the book itself and the kind of the environment
1:12:54in which the book exists. So you know Steve Jobs died the Walter Isaacson book
1:13:01comes out we all read it you know it's I don't know how many pages that thing is
1:13:05I've got the hardcover version of it and it's like I could use it to prop up a
1:13:10like a car I think is crazy thick. And a lot of us walked away from that book
1:13:15saying that you know it's a real shame this guy had the blessing of Steve Jobs
1:13:21and his family to write the official biography and he kind of blew it. And
1:13:26there's lots of reasons why you should definitely go check out Syracuse's
1:13:28hypercritical episodes about it. I re-listened to those in preparation for
1:13:31this. And that book actually comes up in this book. So this this Becoming Steve
1:13:38Jobs exists in a world post-Isaacson where you know what the last Steve Jobs
1:13:42book wasn't very good, had a lot of things wrong with it, really wasn't all
1:13:46that informative, it was basically just rewrites of all these other books and
1:13:49this book steps into existence knowing all of that. It's very aware of the world
1:13:53that it's in. In many ways this book is is very strange, right? It's written by
1:13:57two journalists, one of whom had deep access to Steve Jobs over the course of
1:14:03decades and it's two guys it's written in singular first-person which is
1:14:09strange but it's it's definitely like aware that it's a Steve Jobs book right
1:14:14like a in a way that most books I've read are not you know most biographies
1:14:20don't say I'm a biography like this book says I'm a book about Steve Jobs so I
1:14:26like the fact that it's that it's written from a journalist perspective
1:14:29that these guys had taped interviews they had written interviews with Steve
1:14:32jobs over the course of years. Lots of reference material and not only like the books that
1:14:37you think of like Infinite Loop or West of Eden which are both two great books on Apple,
1:14:43but you know original source material. These guys go out and interview people, they interview
1:14:47some Apple people, interview ex-Apple people. Stuff that Isaacson really never did much
1:14:51of. Isaacson basically just rewrote other books. But with that, you know, there's some
1:14:57downsides. There are technical errors throughout the book. Jason and John spoke about this
1:15:00on upgrade. The ones I just commented was like they said there was a black iBook. They
1:15:05said the iPhone 3G had a faster processor than the iPhone. They said that the iPad 2
1:15:09had a camera flash. Like I can forgive those things but like if so Myke so Myke if you
1:15:16write the next Steve Jobs book you should hire a nerd to fact check it for you. Like
1:15:20just the technical stuff like you could have paid somebody $14 to read this thing and not
1:15:24said there was a black iBook but. People would have done it for free. Yeah I even had the
1:15:29thoughts like I'm going through like highlighting these things to my Kindle
1:15:32I'm like I just send me the transcript like I know the stuff by heart we could
1:15:37have solved this problem for you and it's not that it it devalues the book in
1:15:41my eyes I think historically it doesn't it doesn't hurt the book as much as it
1:15:45hurts me as a pedantic you know every time Casey lists causes I've had
1:15:49something silly I die inside but I think the general public you know is never
1:15:53never gonna notice those things but it is it does you know show a little bit of
1:15:56a crack in the way the book is written.
1:16:00The other meta problem I have with the book, and I want to see what you guys think about
1:16:04this, because you guys are both most of the way through the book, I believe, is that the
1:16:11premise of the book, the thesis the book sets out to prove is sort of twofold.
1:16:16One is that Steve Jobs, when he comes back to Apple, is a changed man from when he left
1:16:21Apple.
1:16:22the jerk, the guy who fires people on a whim in the 80s because of topography, that Steve
1:16:29Jobs is not the guy who comes back to Apple.
1:16:32And they sort of build a case for that, it's weak in places.
1:16:37But the second part of the premise is, okay, Jobs came back, he was different, but really,
1:16:42even the first Steve Jobs was not a bad guy, just maybe misunderstood.
1:16:46And they tell some stories of he goes to this meeting and like goes off on this nonprofit
1:16:51about marketing and then is crying in his car afterwards.
1:16:54And that, like, yeah, that kind of shows that he wasn't two-dimensional in the fact that
1:16:59he was just angry all the time, but they don't really paint the picture of what they're trying
1:17:04to sell.
1:17:05They kind of just say that thing and then they move on.
1:17:07And that's a problem in any book, right?
1:17:11If you chase every rabbit hole in a book, your book is going to be 10,000 pages long.
1:17:15But if your core premise is to say Steve Jobs evolved over his lifetime and evolved over
1:17:19his career you should paint that really clearly and I think this book only does
1:17:23that about halfway what Myke you're further into it than Federico like do
1:17:30you get that sense that that's what they're trying to say like as the meta
1:17:34point of the book they're like the the whole point is trying to say that he had
1:17:38a heart of gold like that's kind of what they're trying I feel like they're just
1:17:43trying to get out it's like he is a nice guy and I'm not saying that he wasn't
1:17:48but they try and explain so many things that he does and say yeah but he learned
1:17:54later and it's like okay but he still did this then there is this kind of like
1:18:01prevailing feeling in the book where they're trying to make the case that he
1:18:05was a better person than then people think he was and in some instances I
1:18:10actually think it works like they made me think differently about Lisa he's
1:18:15his daughter right where they were like he was like in his early 20s the guy
1:18:20didn't know what he was doing he kind of got lost and made it he did something
1:18:25stupid by trying to like distance himself from it but he didn't know how
1:18:29to do with it he was just a kid and it was like you know what that is a good
1:18:33point I'm not excusing him because it was terrible but I've never heard it
1:18:38said that way before like what would we do if we were 22 in that situation right
1:18:43like, oh I was, but, uh, married with a baby, but, um, most people aren't, right? So like,
1:18:49that's a really good example, Myke, of, you know, sort of putting people in Steve Jobs' shoes and
1:18:54like, well, how would you react this way? How would you react if you had cancer? Would you tell people?
1:18:57I love the Bob Iger story. Yes. Oh yeah, we're gonna get there.
1:19:03The, the sort of the, the third meta point, we talk about technical issues, we talk about
1:19:10what the book is trying to say. The third one is Apple's influence on the book. So leading up to it,
1:19:16you know, iBooks is tweeting about it, Eddy Cue says, you know, this is a great book. Here's a
1:19:22quote from Tim Cook. I don't know if you've heard of Tim Cook, he runs Apple now. This is a direct
1:19:28quote from the book. "The picture of him isn't understood," says Cook. "I thought that the
1:19:32Isaacson book did him a tremendous disservice. It was just a rehash of a bunch of stuff that had
1:19:37already been said. It's focused on small parts of his personality. You get the feeling that Steve's
1:19:43a greedy, selfish egomaniac, but it didn't capture the person. The person I read about there, being
1:19:49the Isaacson book, is somebody I would never have wanted to work with over all this time. Life is
1:19:54too short." That is really like, A, it's a dagger through the heart of the Isaacson book. Like,
1:20:02Like if that book wasn't already condemned,
1:20:04it is definitely condemned now.
1:20:06But what becoming Steve Jobs is saying in this is that,
1:20:13this is what they go on to say.
1:20:16And saying this, "Cook echoed the feeling
1:20:18of many of Steve's close friends.
1:20:21In interview after interview,
1:20:23they complained that very little
1:20:24of what had been published offers any sense
1:20:26of why they would have worked so long
1:20:28and so hard for Steve."
1:20:30And so what Becoming Steve Jobs is saying is,
1:20:32look, these stories, these books you've heard
1:20:35of Jobs being a jerk to people,
1:20:38it's not the story, it's not the whole story at least.
1:20:40And what we're gonna do is we're gonna tell
1:20:43the soft, gooey bits in the middle
1:20:44and why somebody like Tim Cook
1:20:46would leave a profitable company
1:20:47and come to Apple that was dying
1:20:49and work for Jobs for 15 years.
1:20:52And that's fine, but if you have the Apple CEO saying that,
1:21:00a journalistic book, as a book written by reporters, you have biased it. You have
1:21:06introduced an outside force saying, "You know what? This book is blessed." And by, you
1:21:13know, osmosis, everything we are saying in the book is blessed. And I think that's a
1:21:17little bit of a problem if you're approaching this book as a historical
1:21:21journalistic effort to document this man's life. Why? I don't know if I
1:21:28understand this as fully as you do because obviously you are a journalism
1:21:32person. Yes that is what the degree says and I know that like this might just be
1:21:38my own hang ups but if Becoming Steve Jobs is not saying we are writing the
1:21:43definitive historical report of Steve Jobs life. What they are saying is we or
1:21:49what they have done is we are writing a story with this lens with this message
1:21:54of you know Steve had a heart of gold Michael you said it's much better than
1:21:57I thought of it and yes he was a jerk and yes this other stuff happened but
1:22:02underneath it all he was a good guy and what I really want and the book that has
1:22:07not been written yet is the historical accurate unbiased like biography of Steve
1:22:16Jobs and we don't have that because the Isaacson book was flawed and this book is
1:22:21flawed to a lesser extent but in a different way and maybe that's just my
1:22:25own hang up. I think some people share that thought. I think probably, like you
1:22:29guys do. But it's something to think about as you read this book, that this book is
1:22:33written from a certain point of view and a certain tone of voice that you should
1:22:36be aware of, you know, when you think about this book.
1:22:39Sure. My kind of last meta point, and this is just mostly me just preaching so you
1:22:46guys just interrupt me. I'll say something. I think it, I was critical of it at the start because it
1:22:52does feel like these guys are going in with their agenda but their agenda may
1:22:56be based in what they believe to be fact or fact but I do come away from this
1:23:01book I'm nearly finished I've got about an hour left in the audio book I do come
1:23:05away from this book feeling vindicated like I feel like the man that I look up
1:23:11to so much isn't as much of a tool yes he's been made out to be agreed so
1:23:17whether he was or he wasn't, like I like that this book exists because I feel
1:23:22better. I agree actually, I was talking to Mary about that. I was
1:23:30finishing the book and I was like you know it's sort of a weird thing to look
1:23:32up to look up to Steve Jobs because you know a lot of people have the view and
1:23:38it's well founded in places that Steve Jobs was kind of a word that if I said
1:23:42you would have to bleep it out on the podcast, right?
1:23:45And so I do appreciate that as a fan,
1:23:48as someone who looks at Steve Jobs as,
1:23:50they're parts of his career, parts of his personality
1:23:54that I think are worth emulating.
1:23:56Absolutely, it's nice to know
1:23:58that you're not following somebody
1:23:59or that you're aligning yourself with somebody
1:24:02who was a total jerk to people.
1:24:04I think it's a really, I think it's a really solid point,
1:24:09Myke, you know, it's interesting too,
1:24:11and you're not to this part of the book yet,
1:24:13but at the end of the book are all of the Apple executives
1:24:16are sort of grouped together at the end of the book.
1:24:18And it's, you know, it's Tim Cook,
1:24:21it is Eddie Q, a couple others.
1:24:26There's not Phil Schiller.
1:24:29And it came out in that Gruber interview
1:24:31that Apple allowed granted interviews
1:24:33for people who attended Steve's private burial.
1:24:36And Phil Schiller wasn't in that group
1:24:37and that was the dividing line somehow.
1:24:39and so that he wasn't allowed to be interviewed.
1:24:44I will say that this is more of Eddy Cue
1:24:47than we've ever seen.
1:24:48Like I know there's that funny picture of him
1:24:50at being interviewed by Walt Mossberg
1:24:52and his shirt's unbuttoned,
1:24:53but this is more of Eddy Cue than we've seen.
1:24:56And I was surprised--
1:24:58- Yeah, I know what you're gonna say.
1:25:00- How powerful Eddy Cue seems with an apple.
1:25:04And like-- - Dude is smart too.
1:25:06- Yeah, 'cause you look at him, right?
1:25:08So Eddy Cue drives a Ferrari
1:25:09and he shows up with his shirt on button,
1:25:11he's kinda sloppy, and it's easy to be like,
1:25:13"Eh, Eddy Cue, he's sort of a crazy uncle figure,"
1:25:16but like, he's-- - Yeah, it kinda feels like
1:25:18iTunes Music Store, Eddy Cue's creation.
1:25:21- Yeah, like-- - Not even so much
1:25:22like he was asked to do it, he's like,
1:25:23"He had an idea," and it became the iTunes Music Store.
1:25:28And it's like, oh, AT&T deal, Eddy Cue.
1:25:31Like, it's like, whoa. - Yeah, yeah, he's a beast,
1:25:34and that's, you know, that's the--
1:25:36- He's a real boss.
1:25:37- Yes, he is. - Yeah.
1:25:39And so that's sort of the fun part of this,
1:25:42like, post-Steve, like, Cook, open Apple,
1:25:45of working to see some of those stories now.
1:25:47And there's, you know, there's more in this book
1:25:50about the iPod and iPhone, or iPad and iPhone,
1:25:52than we've ever seen before.
1:25:54But, you know, you hear names of engineers
1:25:56and people you haven't heard of before,
1:25:58but that really impressed me.
1:25:59That AT&T thing, where he was like,
1:26:01"Hey, we're gonna build a phone.
1:26:03"We're not gonna show it to you.
1:26:05we're going to get a percentage of your data service charges.
1:26:10Which they have gotten rid of since and I think it's why the pricing structure changed.
1:26:14But yeah, like Federico said, he's a boss. And that was a lot of fun to read of like,
1:26:20that dude is a machine and a very like, I don't know, like I always think EdiQ is
1:26:25not that important, but in reality, apparently is very important to Apple's ongoing business.
1:26:30And what I wish was in here was like the story of them buying Beats, because I guarantee you EdiQ
1:26:35Q played hardball.
1:26:36Like, he was the guy who would've finished it.
1:26:37What it seems like is Q does the, did all the work and then Jobs would come in and seal
1:26:43the deal.
1:26:44Jobs came into the AT&T thing and was like, "We want part of the data stuff."
1:26:48But Q is the one who's going in, he's feeling everyone out, he starts these things over
1:26:55and then it's like, "Yep."
1:26:57And then Jobs used to come in and slam it down.
1:27:00Maybe that was when he wore the top hat.
1:27:02Do you remember that story?
1:27:03Yeah, it's something that happens, right?
1:27:10And you know that they kind of deal with AT&T and you know that all these things happen,
1:27:13but you're like, "Oh yeah, EdiQ was the guy who sort of massaged things into place."
1:27:18It's pretty interesting.
1:27:20Okay, so my next section you guys will see in the document is Steve Jobs, which seems
1:27:27like he's one of my four topics for the book, but Steve Jobs is an individual.
1:27:33And really what I walked away with and I'm gonna see what you guys think about this is
1:27:38that there's even a quote with Johnny Ive talking about about Steve giving feedback
1:27:45about sugarcoating the truth and that if you do that if you don't give brutal honest feedback
1:27:52not to be brutal not to be a jerk but you just strip it down to the raw honesty of the
1:27:58situation, that that is what's important. That you're doing a bigger respect to
1:28:02somebody of just telling the truth as opposed to like chucking and jiving and
1:28:06saying "oh it's pretty good but what about this?" If you just get to the heart
1:28:09of it you're showing them more respect and you're getting better work in the
1:28:13process. And not to be a jerk just to be mean even though I think there's cases
1:28:19of that in Steve Jobs life, but you come across as abrasive because you're
1:28:24stripping away that fluff that society wants you to put around truth that's
1:28:27hard to swallow. What is that something you guys think like I look at that and I
1:28:32admire that because it's you know a everybody kind of wants to be a jerk I
1:28:38think I think a lot of people have that in them including myself but I look at
1:28:42it I think yeah you know that that is kind of the way to handle things even
1:28:45though my backfire sometimes like raw truth is raw honesty is the way to go but
1:28:50How does that strike you guys? I think it's incredibly hard to be able to do it
1:28:59but I can see the benefit in everybody else. Once you know that the
1:29:05person that you work for works in this way, I can see how it enables you to
1:29:10get work done faster. It eliminates an incredible amount of politics
1:29:15because everyone is being honest or at least he is being honest and then that
1:29:21allows you to be honest of each other as well because it's like but there's no
1:29:24point sugarcoating this there's no point dancing around like and and like beating
1:29:29the book reading about the bush about this sort of stuff let's just get things
1:29:32done there's something about that which is great but gone Federico you gotta be
1:29:37I'm sorry Myke it's just you gotta be in the position to be able to you know to
1:29:41to go on with your life like that.
1:29:43Because there's people who work day jobs,
1:29:46and they just want to keep their jobs,
1:29:48and they're not in the position to be jerks
1:29:50and to not sugarcoat stuff.
1:29:52Because at the end of the day, they're just
1:29:54be nice to people, keep your job,
1:29:58get a salary at the end of the month,
1:30:00and go home and enjoy the rest of your life.
1:30:02Because for most people, their job is not their life.
1:30:06So if you're in a creative, controlling position,
1:30:10I guess like Steve Jobs was and if you can afford to live with the consequences of people thinking oh my god
1:30:16This guy's a jerk good for you. I mean we saw how much this kind of you know way of living
1:30:22Ultimately was beneficial to Steve Jobs and to Apple because of this crazy creative process and to you know
1:30:29To get things done and to move forward and that's great
1:30:32Just most people don't need or want to do that and I understand why I mean it's easier
1:30:39What do you guys say? To avoid all the politics and to go straight to the point and to be
1:30:45kind of direct to people to just say what you think without, you know, all the fluff and that's great
1:30:52But it's just most people want to avoid the problems that, you know, originate from this kind of behavior
1:30:58they just want to be nice because it's easier and it makes you more comfortable and
1:31:02Usually lets you keep your job
1:31:05Yeah, and you're right like Jobs owned Pixar, you know, he
1:31:10Was the CEO at Apple?
1:31:12So if I come into my job as sort of a middle manager tech guy and I do that like it's gonna end poorly for me
1:31:18I know because I've tried it and it is poorly for me
1:31:20And I think this is one of the elements that changes
1:31:30as jobs ages and again the book tells the story but doesn't really back it up in places of
1:31:36He did that when he came back to Apple right he did that with with IV did that with the design team
1:31:41But maybe he filed the edge off a little bit of them the meanness of it that you know
1:31:46You can do that and if it's about the work
1:31:48that's one thing but if you make it about the person doing the work like your jobs made things personal in his first tenure at
1:31:54Apple and
1:31:55That's really where you get into trouble right if you can say well your work is is
1:31:59It's poopy, but if you say you're a poopy person different things
1:32:02Trying to keep myself from yes, I'm editing tonight
1:32:07and
1:32:09And you know multiple times in the book
1:32:11It's you know, I did the very best work in my life for Steve, you know
1:32:15we as a team did the very best work of our lives for Steven and
1:32:18clearly if you can work in an environment with someone, you know, like what Tim Cook said of
1:32:24Who's not a jerk just to be a jerk and you balance that with like brutal?
1:32:29like raw honesty you know Jobs eventually found that balance because he
1:32:35got people you know the people who who made the iPod and who did all these
1:32:38things you know built the iMac they were the same engineers who were building
1:32:42Performas two years earlier that were really crappy and Jobs inspired them and
1:32:47those you know they had new leadership but the same people were doing that work
1:32:50and so clearly people can respond and reverberate to that sort of feedback
1:32:56when done correctly and I think that's really like looking at companies you
1:33:02see like CEOs try to be like oh I'm gonna be the Steve Jobs of X. Like well
1:33:07that's sort of silly but if you're gonna do that like you have to get that
1:33:12balance of you know yes I can I can be really brutal in my feedback and I'm
1:33:19gonna give you honesty without any of the fluff but at the same time I'm gonna
1:33:22build you up and encourage you I'm going to inspire you to do the best work I
1:33:25think a lot of leaders fall into one or two of those camps but not both I think
1:33:30that's where Steve Jobs lived as a manager later in his life was sort of
1:33:33doing both of those things and that's what makes him a unique leader and you
1:33:39know in that this book is not an original thought to this book but you
1:33:45know Steve's biggest legacy Steve's biggest creation his biggest product is
1:33:50Apple itself. You know this book talks a little bit about Apple University where
1:33:56Apple employees are taught like historical Apple stuff not for the
1:34:00reasons I care about it but like these are the decisions that were made and
1:34:04these are the factors that went to those decisions like you know we could change
1:34:10on a dime when we need to because of these things and Apple is trying very
1:34:13hard to keep the spirit of Steve Jobs alive in the company and I think that's
1:34:20really important I think you see that in this book where you know he's at Next
1:34:22and he's watching Apple from afar and yes he's he's taking jabs at them in the
1:34:27market but then privately he's like oh my gosh I can't believe that you know
1:34:31this is going on he comes back to Apple it's six months before he does anything
1:34:35right his next employees are all running divisions with an Apple but Steve is
1:34:38outside of Apple sitting on his hands trying to decide what to do it's not
1:34:43till nine months later that he comes on his ICO and then you know nukes
1:34:46Gil Amelio out of the water, you see that shift of that balance kind of coming
1:34:53into into play and and jobs caring about Apple not only as a family of products
1:34:58but a product itself and I think that's something that other leaders, businesses
1:35:03I've worked in, businesses that I see that I interact with, you know, you get
1:35:06very down in the weeds in your product or your service and not not pay attention
1:35:13attention to your culture or I think what Apple has is bigger than just
1:35:17culture it is a way of thinking a philosophy of of work that Jobs tried to
1:35:23tried to pass on. I did I did want to talk to you about the cancer thing I mean
1:35:31it's in this book there's not a lot of new stuff in this book that wasn't in
1:35:34the Isaacson book. The Isaacson book is really the first time you hear a lot of
1:35:38the story because on the outside is Jobs took a couple leaves of absences leaves
1:35:42of absence and he was kind of in and out and looked really unhealthy for a long
1:35:47time looked really sick and then came back and had a little spring in his step
1:35:51again and then you know went downhill and from the outside it was hard to tell
1:35:54what was going on. This book does raise the question of like should Steve have
1:36:00told people earlier should Steve have gotten treatment earlier? He tried doing
1:36:05this holistic thing and then ended up you know being a more serious deal than
1:36:09than he thought anyways. I don't feel comfortable, you know, passing judgment on
1:36:18Steve's decisions about his cancer, maybe because I've had it in my own family for
1:36:24a long time now and everyone approaches that differently. I don't know if you
1:36:31guys had any opinions on that. I don't feel like I could speak into his
1:36:34decision-making there and I think the book does a pretty good job of treating
1:36:39that part of his life with respect of, you know, this was... they're not saying,
1:36:43"Hey, it was a bad decision," or, "These were poor decisions," but, "These are decisions
1:36:47he made with his family," and for better or for worse that's what happened.
1:36:52Well, personally, like, I still have to reach this section of the book, but I'm familiar
1:36:59with the story. I can only say that I, during my, you know, my process of going
1:37:07through this stuff, I was offered to try, you know, this alternative solutions,
1:37:13we are, um, instead of traditional science and medicine.
1:37:19And my reaction was not exactly a good one.
1:37:24And the person who tried to, um, poke my brain with this idea, I haven't, uh,
1:37:34spoken to this person in four years.
1:37:36So I don't feel like I'm qualified to comment on...
1:37:41It was Steve Jobs' decision, of course, and it's just I personally don't believe in this stuff.
1:37:47My reaction is always a bit aggressive when this sort of theme is brought up to me.
1:37:53It was his decision, so I'm guessing, like you said, Steven, it was made with his family.
1:37:59family. Personally, I don't think it's a smart choice, but you know, people can do whatever
1:38:06they want with their lives.
1:38:08I think for me, any feeling that I have or emotion that I have about that, it's selfish
1:38:18because I didn't want him to die. Like, I want him to still be around because I benefit
1:38:25from him being around.
1:38:27But he'd made a decision in his life, which was like,
1:38:30I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this.
1:38:33And if it doesn't work, then then that's that because I don't want to do this.
1:38:37And they actually did a really good job in the book of explaining how
1:38:40a really invasive surgery for some people is something they just don't want.
1:38:45And Steve was took a lot of care of himself
1:38:49and didn't want people poking around inside his body.
1:38:53So he wanted to exhaust other avenues before allowing that sort of stuff to happen.
1:38:59And it's like, again, another one, it's like, okay, that is a different and interesting
1:39:05opinion, different to one that I've seen before.
1:39:08And again, going back to what we were talking about earlier, where the book can make some
1:39:12weird decisions in the way it tries to explain some of Steve's stuff, it actually also passes
1:39:18some interesting feelings that I hadn't thought of before and that is one of them.
1:39:23Yeah and you know he's got the story of where he was showing off his
1:39:28scar and saying you know this really was a big deal. I think that's really a good
1:39:33point and Myke you know one that I have thought about but not in context of
1:39:37of jobs. Really kind of what I want to leave this section with is Steve's speech
1:39:44at Stanford and there's gonna be a link you can read the transcript the entire
1:39:49transcript is in the book which I think is really great they'd read it all out
1:39:53in the audiobook yeah I rewatched the video last night in fact Federico thank
1:39:57you and I were texting and I always forget how powerful the speech is and
1:40:03obviously in hindsight it's tragic because we know that you know he's only
1:40:08got X number of years six years after the speech is given and he talks about
1:40:12death, and my favorite line is "sometimes life hits you in the head with a brick,
1:40:17don't lose faith." It's just like super heavy duty, but like that's--I think that
1:40:24speech is printed in its entirety in this book, and I think it resonates with
1:40:28us so well today, ten years later, because this is the jobs that this book is
1:40:32portraying, and it's the jobs that we want to look up to of someone who's a
1:40:37little rough around the edges. There's stuff in the speech that's really hard, and
1:40:40and like kind of rough to listen to, but it's with that heart in the center of it and with
1:40:47a passion for people and a passion for the very nature of life itself. He talks about,
1:40:54"If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I'm about to do today? And
1:41:00when the answer has been no for too many days in a row, I change something." Such a compact statement
1:41:07that has a whole world of philosophy behind it is pretty great, pretty powerful stuff.
1:41:14I was glad to see that made the book in its entirety because I haven't read that in years
1:41:18and it definitely like, I get choked up reading that speech, which may be silly but it's definitely
1:41:25something that happened to me reading it.
1:41:28So looking at where we are now, do you think we should maybe hold some of this?
1:41:31Yeah, let's tackle Pixar and Apple next week and we'll wrap this up.
1:41:38Yeah, because we're also going to talk, we're going to have Jason on next week, right?
1:41:42We're going to talk about photos.
1:41:43Yes.
1:41:44Which will be fun.
1:41:45Yeah.
1:41:46Because we need to kill Apple's service.
1:41:47We need to kill it.
1:41:49So we're going to talk about it and then it's going to go away.
1:41:52Just before we end the show, something that I just saw on Twitter that I'm about to retweet
1:41:58right now.
1:41:59Oh.
1:42:00Okay.
1:42:01retweeted. This is, we're doing it live. So there's people already in line to see the
1:42:07watch in Australia. To see, because you can't buy in person right? Did we say that? No.
1:42:14There's people in line just to see the watch, to try it on I think. And there's a, you can
1:42:19see TV crews, you can see cameras, you can see the Apple store. I just retweeted this
1:42:23and yeah. There's people. It's gotta be like still 8 hours away though right? I don't know,
1:42:30It's kind of, what time is it in Sydney?
1:42:33Let's see.
1:42:34Because they're doing it the same time everywhere, like the pre-orders.
1:42:37I don't know, maybe they're putting them in stores earlier.
1:42:39It's midnight Pacific.
1:42:40No, it's midnight Pacific, but it's 9am local time, I think.
1:42:45So it's 9am in Sydney right now, and I'm guessing that the Apple Store is about to open, so
1:42:50there's people, there's media.
1:42:52Oh, right, they're going to have them in the store, but they can't order them yet.
1:42:56Yeah.
1:42:57because I think it'll be like I think it's like five o'clock or something Sydney time something
1:43:01like that yeah but it makes sense right they're gonna have them in the store today that you just
1:43:05can't do nothing with them but that makes sense I would be there like yeah I have to uh I was gonna
1:43:10buy AppleCare+ for my six plus and I was gonna do it this weekend because I'm gonna be out where the
1:43:14Apple store is and I was like yeah that's probably a bad idea I'm gonna be busy um yeah so we'll pick
1:43:21up uh the second uh half of my rambling next week and that'll give you guys time to finish the book
1:43:26because the Pixar and Apple relationship is really interesting. So we'll dive back in next week.
1:43:32Yeah some of the Pixar stuff is fantastic but yeah I want to finish it. I want to finish it.
1:43:35Cool. Great so I think that's about it for this week's episode. If you want to find our
1:43:41massive list of links there's lots of stuff lots of cool things in there this week go to
1:43:44relay.fm/connected/34 or you'll find the links in your podcast app of choice. There's a couple
1:43:50of places you can find us online if you'd like to find Stephen Hackett he is @ismh on Twitter
1:43:55and writes at the five tall pixels dotnet Federico's at the teachy vit ICC I and he writes at max stories dotnet and I am I Myke
1:44:02I am y ke on Twitter and I host many shows over at the great relay dot FM
1:44:07Which this show is a part of that's our web address really don't offend if you'd like to go there
1:44:11You can find out more about the great stuff that we have on offer
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1:44:18We also had igloo and wealth front and we'll be back next time until then gentlemen
1:44:25peace and goodbye. Adios.