The Accidental Tech Podcast

158: You Can't Outlaw Math

 

  we're in for a long show tonight are we [TS]

  not I don't honestly I don't know how [TS]

  long it's gonna last help you put that [TS]

  on the pre-show marcos classic honestly [TS]

  I don't think there's much to say always [TS]

  says that I never say it's gonna be a [TS]

  short show that's always you provided [TS]

  that you say it a different way that's [TS]

  the ways and i can tell i have a cold [TS]

  my-my streak is over i was gonna go to [TS]

  whole winter without getting sick almost [TS]

  made it out of this one so close [TS]

  can we just drive you over a creek how's [TS]

  your picture called I recognize that [TS]

  wasn't the best use that metaphor but i [TS]

  just cannot get tired of that metaphor [TS]

  it's so good yeah it's kind of mean that [TS]

  like is this gets back to what i was [TS]

  saying on the pasture we're talking [TS]

  about the new open a plan coming on [TS]

  podcasts or whatever it's so easy to [TS]

  make fun of that but that type of story [TS]

  is an example of people opening up like [TS]

  it's the type of thing that in a more [TS]

  controlled PR environment would never [TS]

  come out and it's slightly unfortunate [TS]

  that the story that they put out there [TS]

  because even on the merits it's kind of [TS]

  like well you're trying to make an [TS]

  emotional appeal but realistically [TS]

  speaking that's not an effective way for [TS]

  an organization to address problems to [TS]

  have the head of the you know that the [TS]

  head honchos of these huge swathes of [TS]

  the biggest company in the world be [TS]

  addressing problems on an individual [TS]

  level with their own particular max like [TS]

  that's not you need better tools to [TS]

  manage this problem so it just seems [TS]

  like you're trying to sway me [TS]

  emotionally with anecdote but doesn't [TS]

  make sense but that's the type of thing [TS]

  that you do when you open up about [TS]

  yourself in your personal life and i'm [TS]

  sure it really is true and so I'm glad [TS]

  we know that that's what's going on and [TS]

  now we can I guess make our own [TS]

  judgments about the effectiveness is the [TS]

  strategy of driving things to create [TS]

  victories and I don't know it is also [TS]

  trying to say how passionate they are [TS]

  that even these big important people are [TS]

  are not above getting down to a problem [TS]

  that they encounter that they're not [TS]

  going to leave it to the lower people so [TS]

  they'll take care of that they really [TS]

  want to fix every little problem they [TS]

  found so it's multifaceted it's [TS]

  personal--it's human it's flawed [TS]

  it's everything that the new open Apple [TS]

  the new more open apple is about [TS]

  so I only have a few questions about it [TS]

  first of all in what part of a Ferrari [TS]

  doesn't imac fit they have a lot of cars [TS]

  you have is the rule of thumb if you [TS]

  have a Ferrari it does not your only car [TS]

  that's fair okay a second question can [TS]

  you imagine being federighi and [TS]

  basically being like the tech support [TS]

  team for the entire company i wonder if [TS]

  that's like a Power Move like the video [TS]

  it's like that if you have something [TS]

  wrong with Apple music do you like drive [TS]

  your computer over to the anyhow that's [TS]

  I feel like it's unfair because all of [TS]

  any stuff is all cloud services like you [TS]

  you can't really drive a broken itunes [TS]

  store requests over to Eddie's house but [TS]

  you just bring you just bring your [TS]

  computer and say why is all my automated [TS]

  message fix this and you and you come [TS]

  back on monday is it done to fix my [TS]

  album that data is even funnier to [TS]

  imagine like you know your correctly [TS]

  you're like sitting down to dinner with [TS]

  your family and you know you hero here [TS]

  this like laude Nov 12 pull up in the [TS]

  driveway like oh god again didn't I said [TS]

  you can hold on everyone does he have [TS]

  the 599 I don't know I don't know I [TS]

  don't know Ferraris want to even I was [TS]

  just guessing there's probably a v12 one [TS]

  there is only one uh was only one [TS]

  well there's the eff is a p12 Casey [TS]

  remember I thought so but I too am NOT [TS]

  inside the idea for this this to [TS]

  front-engine b12 sitting on one's really [TS]

  ugly and four-wheel-drive that's the FF [TS]

  yeah is that even Ferrari it really is [TS]

  if it's ugly and four-wheel-drive it's [TS]

  still is John would suffer through I [TS]

  wouldn't have i got that i would sell a [TS]

  million Byron a better [TS]

  man anyway we should probably do some [TS]

  follow-up shouldn't we tell me about [TS]

  figma which I don't even remember [TS]

  talking about it was that vector thing [TS]

  remember that app that was gonna yes let [TS]

  you draw vectors in a different way and [TS]

  I said on the website that basically had [TS]

  a big sign up button instead of a big [TS]

  download buttons like I was nothing to [TS]

  download it you know it like you can [TS]

  sign up and i guess i'll tell you more [TS]

  when it's ready like that as if nothing [TS]

  wasn't out yet and David Klein treated [TS]

  to say that he's a I believe figma is [TS]

  one hundred percent in the browser [TS]

  nothing to download so when it does [TS]

  arrive apparently is going to be a web [TS]

  app but i still think you can get drive [TS]

  but anyway if i can try for free online [TS]

  i definitely will because I'm interested [TS]

  in how it's going to work [TS]

  don't know that was quick and easy and [TS]

  wanted to tell us about everyone's [TS]

  favorite font comic sans yes it's friend [TS]

  friend of the show and flop house [TS]

  adjacent micro celebrity John McCoy and [TS]

  a friend of mine pointed out that in all [TS]

  our discussion of comic sans or our [TS]

  Microsoft Bob rather we didn't mention [TS]

  that comic sans the much-hated font was [TS]

  created for but not shipped with [TS]

  Microsoft Bob so you can read the [TS]

  wikipedia entry on comics and you'll see [TS]

  that it was created to try to fit in [TS]

  with the Microsoft Bob world which [TS]

  explains why it's so awful but it didn't [TS]

  it didn't make it in time so they didn't [TS]

  ship with it so i get another thing you [TS]

  can blame on Microsoft Bob have you ever [TS]

  used Microsoft Bob John i don't think so [TS]

  i think only I've read about in [TS]

  magazines when it came out but I don't I [TS]

  don't I didn't have a pc obviously and [TS]

  none of my friends who had a pc had it [TS]

  all right John stop listening for a [TS]

  second Casey we have 24 april fools day [TS]

  somehow find a way to put Microsoft Bob [TS]

  on a computer in john's office [TS]

  I don't remember using it i bet you i [TS]

  did at some point but i don't remember [TS]

  having done so i installed windows a [TS]

  Down of the am on my mac and I feel [TS]

  really weird [TS]

  well to be fair windows 8 felt really [TS]

  weird to Windows users all signed up you [TS]

  try like doing an edge swipe with the [TS]

  mouse cursor on a windows vm it's really [TS]

  hard [TS]

  Wow again in all fairness doing [TS]

  everything in Windows 8 is well just [TS]

  remember that was my life boys until [TS]

  just a couple weeks ago [TS]

  congratulations again for getting out of [TS]

  that thank you i'm so happy i really am [TS]

  at anyway we are gonna follow up [TS]

  we not thats it was it just too small [TS]

  items wow look at this girl let's [TS]

  celebrate by talking about something [TS]

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  because then other people can help [TS]

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  have to ask you they can ask where space [TS]

  so if you're making website for yourself [TS]

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  squarespace for sponsoring our show so [TS]

  there's been big breaking news that has [TS]

  happened since we recorded last and I [TS]

  think it's important we talk about it [TS]

  microsoft has bought xamarin sorry I [TS]

  just [TS]

  yeah at that is fine i I really [TS]

  appreciated your your your intro there [TS]

  didn't think much about salmon but if [TS]

  you had asked me hey I did some company [TS]

  owns a marine now I would have maybe [TS]

  guest microsoft I know like like netware [TS]

  on them at some point something like [TS]

  that yeah but I'd basically honest I'd [TS]

  lost track of who own them and they've [TS]

  been so closely associated with [TS]

  Microsoft that if you had told me oh [TS]

  yeah no microphone xamarin I was like oh [TS]

  yeah that sounds right so the fact that [TS]

  Michael bought them make sense to me [TS]

  I think yes let me let me catch everyone [TS]

  up so xamarin was originally called mono [TS]

  and it was an open-source reinforcement [TS]

  ation of dotnet that was designed to [TS]

  bring dotnet other platforms and [TS]

  initially this really meant linux but [TS]

  over time it became more about allowing [TS]

  you to write dotnet code usually c-sharp [TS]

  code that ran on Android and iOS and I [TS]

  looked at it way back when it was mano 1 [TS]

  i'm sorry it was it was a long time ago [TS]

  right when they first started supporting [TS]

  the iphone forget what version that was [TS]

  and as we talked about a handful of [TS]

  times on the show [TS]

  it felt like exactly how I would have [TS]

  written a bridging platform to go [TS]

  between the world of C sharp and and iOS [TS]

  it that's a compliment it felt really [TS]

  really good now it's still a total hack [TS]

  but it it felt it felt like it was [TS]

  really well-designed and really really [TS]

  well done and so Microsoft has since [TS]

  bought samer in which again used to be [TS]

  called mono so now it's being folded [TS]

  into microsoft and this is kind of an [TS]

  extension of what they did a years so [TS]

  maybe two years ago when they open [TS]

  sourced a lot of the.net framework so in [TS]

  some parts see that salmon and other [TS]

  people like them could use Microsoft [TS]

  code in order to get the bits of dotnet [TS]

  they needed and then xamarin could go [TS]

  back to doing the things they were [TS]

  that which was just building that like [TS]

  cross-platform layer so Microsoft is [TS]

  buying xamarin we'll see what that means [TS]

  I'm this reminds me of our conversations [TS]

  in the past about project island would [TS]

  which was / is I haven't really kept up [TS]

  with it a cross-platform setup that [TS]

  microsoft had to bring iOS apps onto [TS]

  Windows 10 [TS]

  I think that's mostly died is that true [TS]

  was it ever alive I mean like I know [TS]

  that they they have released that in [TS]

  some form and I know people look at the [TS]

  code and it was horrendous and full of [TS]

  tons of like temporary hacks and like to [TS]

  do implementations and everything and [TS]

  because wasn't like a real [TS]

  implementation of UI kit and on time was [TS]

  the idea and remember Kate didn't come [TS]

  out like right after Swift was announced [TS]

  and there and is not compatible Swift at [TS]

  all and so there was a tissue and then [TS]

  the other issue is yeah like they [TS]

  basically it tries to be a layer so that [TS]

  you can write use it basically can port [TS]

  your iOS app right over to windows phone [TS]

  or windows in general I don't know which [TS]

  version of windows but I right over to [TS]

  windows something or other and it was [TS]

  just really mentally all the all the [TS]

  basic I was frameworks and I honestly [TS]

  have not heard of anybody using it for [TS]

  any reason I mean the reason why iOS [TS]

  developers are not making their their [TS]

  apps for Windows is not because we can't [TS]

  cross compile them it's because we don't [TS]

  care because I'm going to the market [TS]

  literally I'm not trying to be mean it's [TS]

  like if you're if we wanted to make apps [TS]

  for those platforms we would just make [TS]

  them correctly you know it using their [TS]

  native tools in their native apps the [TS]

  fact that there's this weird half [TS]

  compatibility layer that is kind of [TS]

  half-baked and kind of half works and is [TS]

  probably only have supported by anybody [TS]

  that's not really gonna change anyone's [TS]

  mind meaningfully you know that that [TS]

  might help out a couple of consultants [TS]

  on really tight time constraints but [TS]

  even then like our clients have been [TS]

  asking for Windows apps like it isn't [TS]

  that just seems like there is so little [TS]

  demand and will for people to make [TS]

  Windows apps [TS]

  this is not going to meaningful change [TS]

  that now this was the nineties the old [TS]

  star was like don't bother trying to [TS]

  make a linux compatible implementation [TS]

  of [TS]

  the the common language runtime or.net [TS]

  because you're just playing at the [TS]

  microsoft trap and even though microsoft [TS]

  says all these things about oh you know [TS]

  cross-platform runtime virtual machine [TS]

  environment c-sharp blah blah [TS]

  really what they're just trying to do is [TS]

  trap you so that's why the linux [TS]

  computer you're always kind of looked at [TS]

  them you know with a little bit where [TS]

  Lee saying i don't really want to make [TS]

  any linux apps using the Microsoft no no [TS]

  it's not a microsoft technologies [TS]

  totally open it'll be just like I don't [TS]

  know about that and if we were still in [TS]

  the nineties and Microsoft was still [TS]

  like company that everyone was scared of [TS]

  and everyone suspected they were going [TS]

  to you know embrace extend extinguish [TS]

  all this other stuff whatever will be [TS]

  saying was see we were really smart not [TS]

  to try to build anything and linux based [TS]

  on the the common language runtime [TS]

  dotnet because if we did now Microsoft [TS]

  bought them and guess what all that [TS]

  cross-platform stuff that that they were [TS]

  doing before well that's all over now [TS]

  and everything that is examined is going [TS]

  to become windows-only another gonna be [TS]

  cross-platform anymore because you know [TS]

  it was just like it was a trap basically [TS]

  get people to distract Linux which is a [TS]

  big threat to microsoft and their mind [TS]

  back in the nineties and two to use [TS]

  microsoft technologies and then take [TS]

  those technologies away and make them [TS]

  provider that point but of course the [TS]

  modern microsoft by examine exactly the [TS]

  opposite reasons because their company [TS]

  that has shown that they're good at [TS]

  doing things cross platform and the new [TS]

  microsoft wants to sell whatever it is [TS]

  they have to sell to as many people as [TS]

  possible and then moving away from the [TS]

  only way to get this is to get it on [TS]

  windows you know as your web services [TS]

  are an example according iOS developers [TS]

  and stuff to you can use these web [TS]

  services with your iOS app will they'll [TS]

  they'll sell anything to anyone because [TS]

  they think they have valuable things and [TS]

  they're no longer in a position where [TS]

  they could say we have valuable [TS]

  technology and only way you can get it [TS]

  is to be microsoft and windows and [TS]

  proprietary top to bottom because nobody [TS]

  does that anymore it's not it's not like [TS]

  it's not even an option so I think this [TS]

  purchase of samurai would have blown the [TS]

  minds of like linux advocates in the [TS]

  nineties idea that they're buying them [TS]

  because they're so good across platform [TS]

  stuff that surely what they're going to [TS]

  do with those people and that technology [TS]

  is more clock cross-platform things not [TS]

  like oh now finally we can stop people [TS]

  from using our technology to do anything [TS]

  except for make apps for our platform [TS]

  so here's a question I don't you know I [TS]

  haven't looked too much into this so [TS]

  forgive me but you know back in the in [TS]

  the in the nineties when someone you [TS]

  know sun microsystems made this really [TS]

  really expensive custom proprietary [TS]

  hardware and software to run the custom [TS]

  son boxes and then son invented Java and [TS]

  Java who is seen by many as kind of a [TS]

  big strategic blunder by sun because the [TS]

  whole point of Java is to make [TS]

  proprietary platform and hardware [TS]

  completely irrelevant marginalize them [TS]

  and make the same software on everywhere [TS]

  and so many people think that was son [TS]

  kind of eroding their own companies [TS]

  strong points and their own revenue [TS]

  sources trying to apply that today I [TS]

  mean do you like what is microsoft get [TS]

  big picture wise long-term wise what did [TS]

  they get out of making linux servers a a [TS]

  first-class platform for.net development [TS]

  because right now Microsoft makes a big [TS]

  portion of the revenue with Windows [TS]

  servers and windows server side [TS]

  components and licensing from that and [TS]

  you know how does that obviously like [TS]

  with with with such a new Della's new [TS]

  leadership focus more on services and [TS]

  enterprise stuff it seems like this [TS]

  might be the opposite of what they [TS]

  wanted to do right like it seems like [TS]

  this is long-term removing them from [TS]

  from being required to use their tools [TS]

  so now you know like the server side [TS]

  stuff now like before [TS]

  so one of the biggest reasons why people [TS]

  would buy windows servers was not [TS]

  because they're particularly amazing but [TS]

  because they had to to run their dotnet [TS]

  server stuff because that stuff is what [TS]

  they were comfortable developing in or [TS]

  what they use already or what was best [TS]

  for them for whatever reason so windows [TS]

  had a lot of my client had a lot of a [TS]

  server-side software sales from people [TS]

  who are kind of forced to use windows [TS]

  server who might have chosen linux if [TS]

  they could have and with these and [TS]

  they're you know this the mono project [TS]

  and then the summer and things like this [TS]

  this is not new but it is it's always [TS]

  kind of been like a second class citizen [TS]

  it was always kinda like well if you [TS]

  were the IT manager you probably [TS]

  wouldn't choose that because you'd be [TS]

  you'd be scared of compatibility or [TS]

  whatever so what [TS]

  how does it help Microsoft now [TS]

  to have linux be or become soon a first [TS]

  class citizen to run their their server [TS]

  side stuff which means nobody wants [TS]

  nobody needs to buy windows server [TS]

  anymore [TS]

  why does it help Apple to open-source [TS]

  Swift it or let me rephrase why does it [TS]

  help Apple to make swift compatible with [TS]

  linux that's a better question [TS]

  well i think first of all that Apple [TS]

  needs Swift on linux because they need [TS]

  to run their own services on it I i [TS]

  think that that's a big thing right now [TS]

  with apple is that their services are [TS]

  are built on what was rumored to be a [TS]

  lot of web objects and old java stuff [TS]

  and just kinda just like old stuff that [TS]

  is that he either is not maintained [TS]

  anymore was maintained only by apple or [TS]

  is not the right tool for the job or [TS]

  just in disrepair and so I think Apple [TS]

  really wants Swift on linux for [TS]

  themselves for their own service [TS]

  division with Microsoft I don't know how [TS]

  much they need III don't know I I don't [TS]

  know that that's why I'm asking like [TS]

  this this is I don't know that is [TS]

  necessarily even a good question but [TS]

  just like it is a good idea for [TS]

  Microsoft long-term to to make Windows [TS]

  Server unnecessary but they make their [TS]

  money off windows server as much as they [TS]

  make it off exchange licenses and office [TS]

  licenses and stuff and like they're like [TS]

  the Oracle is a great example [TS]

  oracle is enterprise software company [TS]

  that makes tons and tons of money and [TS]

  they don't sell that they don't force [TS]

  you to buy an operating system i mean [TS]

  they do have oracle enterprise linux [TS]

  right but it's linux right that they [TS]

  don't sell hardware uh they're just [TS]

  selling you their software and it's [TS]

  qualified and certain piece of hardware [TS]

  and his relationships with people who [TS]

  will sell you the hardware and what OS [TS]

  you should have or whatever but that's [TS]

  when you sell what they're going to do [TS]

  what i want to use it and exchange [TS]

  license for certain number of people to [TS]

  remember and it's not as if doing this [TS]

  makes it more likely that there will be [TS]

  in a successful exchange competitor like [TS]

  Google's always tried to do with Google [TS]

  Apps and everything which is entirely [TS]

  different approach and much more server [TS]

  side but as far as Marcus officers [TS]

  concerned you mentioned like Apple I [TS]

  call apple has unlimited service of [TS]

  course they want to work on linux it's [TS]

  not unreasonable to imagine that [TS]

  Microsoft might decide kind of like I [TS]

  mean you talk about some before one of [TS]

  things did son-in-law [TS]

  was linux right the idea that you can [TS]

  only run exchange on a Windows Server [TS]

  it's crappy for kind of everyone [TS]

  including Microsoft Word Microsoft ever [TS]

  want to you know can you imagine a world [TS]

  where microsoft sold you exchange an [TS]

  office all which ran on the links of [TS]

  your choice but a couple that microsoft [TS]

  recommends including maybe Microsoft [TS]

  variant of linux sure because if that [TS]

  means that that Microsoft doesn't have [TS]

  to spend money maintaining a proprietary [TS]

  server is that was never quite as good [TS]

  as linux anyway that's a win that's [TS]

  sacrilege and like the Steve Ballmer [TS]

  think what are you talking about Windows [TS]

  is the crown jewel and blah blah but [TS]

  this is a brave new world here if you're [TS]

  really gonna do services [TS]

  you can't be tied to a particular server [TS]

  platform especially when it's one that's [TS]

  like more difficult to manage it has [TS]

  fewer companies behind in linux is [TS]

  basically raced across the entire server [TS]

  side ecosystem erasing every single [TS]

  proprietary competitor so much so that [TS]

  former primary competitors say okay well [TS]

  we'll just have own variant of linux and [TS]

  everyone's okay with that and just like [TS]

  that's like that part of the ecosystem [TS]

  has not been become the part where you [TS]

  make your money and enterprise has never [TS]

  been you make money of support contracts [TS]

  and licensing and and charging procedure [TS]

  / cpu or whatever that you do you don't [TS]

  make it off selling them are Hardware [TS]

  boxes or os licenses [TS]

  yeah I couldn't agree with that enough I [TS]

  remember being tangentially involved [TS]

  with pricing quotes for things like [TS]

  sharepoint and his talk and all of these [TS]

  big big big software packages that are [TS]

  not the server these are the things here [TS]

  installing windows server and I can't [TS]

  remember the details now but oftentimes [TS]

  was by processor then when wen [TS]

  multi-core processors became a thing I [TS]

  think at some point some software might [TS]

  have been moved to a bike or [TS]

  installation costs so if you have a 15 [TS]

  Corps computer that doesn't make any [TS]

  sense a 16-core computer with you know I [TS]

  don't know four processors then you're [TS]

  paying 16 times whatever the single [TS]

  amount is like they make absurd amounts [TS]

  of money off of the software just [TS]

  comically large amounts of money off the [TS]

  software and to come back to it one of [TS]

  your original questions Marco like why [TS]

  would why would what what is microsoft [TS]

  in what did they get out of this i think [TS]

  what Microsoft gets out of this [TS]

  is they it would be neat for them if [TS]

  writing C sharp was kind of the lingua [TS]

  franca of server-side programming and [TS]

  obviously there will never be one [TS]

  language that's that's the standard [TS]

  language of server-side programming but [TS]

  in the same way that java is huge today [TS]

  in part because it's open source so much [TS]

  of that is going open source now that [TS]

  why couldn't a dotnet be the new Java in [TS]

  the future and because it's the old Java [TS]

  well that's better than the old Java [TS]

  it's a lot as it has better support you [TS]

  know me like that especially now that [TS]

  son has been gobbled up and everything [TS]

  like who is I mean I guess java lurches [TS]

  forward but if anyone was going to [TS]

  compete against java as like Casey says [TS]

  the sort of default safe enterprise [TS]

  server side language it would be C sharp [TS]

  and part of the thing it's been hurting [TS]

  microsoft story is here but then we [TS]

  gotta buy windows servers and everyone [TS]

  knows that feeling like especially if [TS]

  you have an organization that has all [TS]

  their other servers that are living [TS]

  space then everyone's happy with them [TS]

  and they're all they have to have an [TS]

  entire organization built up around [TS]

  managing those servers and like the idea [TS]

  that they can buy different hardware [TS]

  from different vendors and and change [TS]

  you know different distributions and [TS]

  everything like that and then someone [TS]

  comes in and says hey you guys should [TS]

  use a sharp and write all your services [TS]

  seven sharp using this service side [TS]

  frame working at the end like hopin we [TS]

  have to introduce windows servers and [TS]

  nobody wants that like you can't really [TS]

  mix it up it's almost like they keep [TS]

  those people separate like you have one [TS]

  set of people who manage the the [TS]

  linux-based servers and one set of [TS]

  people who manage the window space [TS]

  service and I don't know if you bring [TS]

  people to the same room that they were [TS]

  just collide annihilate and i think the [TS]

  other thing we should say a couple quick [TS]

  notes first of all csharp is great [TS]

  language you really really is i know [TS]

  they're going to be people out there who [TS]

  are rolling their eyes but truly c-sharp [TS]

  is a wonderful wonderful language that [TS]

  can be many many many different things [TS]

  too many many many different people and [TS]

  i've been writing a lot of Swift over [TS]

  the last couple of weeks and i'm really [TS]

  loving Swift but csharp is also a truly [TS]

  wonderful language and fixes many of the [TS]

  ills that java brought to the table and [TS]

  let's assume for a second that you're [TS]

  firm or your staff is really into [TS]

  c-sharp l maybe they've never touched [TS]

  Microsoft servers but they're really [TS]

  into c sharp and they think to [TS]

  themselves man i really want to go to [TS]

  the cloud with the c-sharp instead of [TS]

  staying on premise with linux or [TS]

  on-premises with Microsoft it doesn't [TS]

  matter what cloud environment should we [TS]

  go to we could just go to Azure which [TS]

  probably will do very well with AC sharp [TS]

  base deployment and even faster is is [TS]

  Microsoft service behind-the-scenes who [TS]

  cares because you don't have to worry [TS]

  about it anyway so i think that there's [TS]

  plenty to gain from Microsoft by doing [TS]

  this but we'll see what really ends up [TS]

  happening about I don't know how much [TS]

  Sam and specifically will make a [TS]

  difference but the idea of Microsoft [TS]

  pushing to being everywhere are to [TS]

  having two sharp everywhere i think is a [TS]

  good thing [TS]

  John any other last thoughts you have a [TS]

  one minor point of speaking about the [TS]

  oracle and sun yes of course Oracle was [TS]

  the company the bots on which means that [TS]

  oracle does actually sell hardware [TS]

  narrow because some used to sell [TS]

  hardware and now Oracle software through [TS]

  sounds they sell ZFS storage devices and [TS]

  stuff like that thing does that count [TS]

  I'll count is that kind of the day [TS]

  ZFS storage devices there are file [TS]

  systems on them [TS]

  I don't think it counts but that's a [TS]

  tough one right over so i rescind i [TS]

  rescind my ding a second sponsor this [TS]

  week is fracture go to fracture me.com [TS]

  to see for yourself and use code ATP ten [TS]

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  me.com again use code ATP ten for ten [TS]

  percent off your first order they're I [TS]

  fracture all over all over our house now [TS]

  they used to start off in the office [TS]

  there now spreading to the rest of the [TS]

  house now [TS]

  and everyone always compliments them [TS]

  people love these things they look great [TS]

  these great photo prints right there on [TS]

  glass these nice thin lightweight pieces [TS]

  of glass that you it's not gonna like [TS]

  fall off the walls giant heavy pain it's [TS]

  a nice thin piece of glass and it sits [TS]

  there nice and flat against the wall and [TS]

  it just looks modern and clean you don't [TS]

  forget frame you don't try to flatten [TS]

  the paper and it within the frame [TS]

  against the glass none of that stuff [TS]

  easy simple they look great they're [TS]

  incredibly well priced check out today [TS]

  at fracture me.com use code ATP ten for [TS]

  ten percent off thanks a lot to fracture [TS]

  for sponsorship yes so there's been some [TS]

  interesting things going on with the [TS]

  United States government and apple and I [TS]

  don't even I do we really need to recap [TS]

  this I guess we probably should give the [TS]

  short version of an overview would be [TS]

  helpful for people who listen in the [TS]

  future [TS]

  yeah although anyone listening store in [TS]

  real time as we know that the star came [TS]

  out right after recorded last week so [TS]

  presumably everyone listening to the [TS]

  show when it's released knows all the [TS]

  details but we should summarize is does [TS]

  that mean I'm the one summarizing I can [TS]

  we can take a crack at it real quick you [TS]

  do seem to be the chief summarizer on [TS]

  the show maybe John you and John is [TS]

  arced are closed for that I don't know [TS]

  co-chief summarizer i'm certainly not so [TS]

  i know i'm saying i can sit back and [TS]

  drink my tea right how about I'll take a [TS]

  stab at it here and you guys can [TS]

  interrupt your ready so there was a [TS]

  terrible terrible terrible shooting in [TS]

  december i believe last year in San [TS]

  Bernardino California a couple of people [TS]

  took it upon themselves to commit this [TS]

  really heinous act and kill a lot of [TS]

  people and that's really really terrible [TS]

  and there's no there's no discussion [TS]

  about that it's it's terrible [TS]

  it was a terrorist act it it's something [TS]

  that's really unfortunate these two [TS]

  people suspects perpetrators whatever we [TS]

  like to call them they one of them it [TS]

  was a husband-wife pair of the husband [TS]

  had two phones two iphones as far as we [TS]

  know one of them was destroyed that was [TS]

  his personal phone his wife's personal [TS]

  phone also destroyed [TS]

  he also had an iphone 5c that was issued [TS]

  to him by his job which coincidentally [TS]

  is the San Bernardino government the [TS]

  iphone 5c has passcode on it [TS]

  and it is quite possible that if you it [TS]

  could be set up such that if you enter [TS]

  the passcode incorrectly ten times in a [TS]

  row it will nuke everything on the phone [TS]

  the iphone is in the custody of the [TS]

  federal bureau of investigation the FBI [TS]

  the FBI wants what's on that phone but [TS]

  they can't get to it because it has this [TS]

  passcode it could have the destruction [TS]

  setting turned on such that if they [TS]

  enter the wrong code ten times it will [TS]

  destroy itself or destroy all the data [TS]

  additionally they were advised by apple [TS]

  at some point or another hey we have [TS]

  iCloud backup so we don't have any from [TS]

  the last six or so weeks I forget [TS]

  exactly how many it doesn't really [TS]

  matter [TS]

  we don't have a recent like iCloud [TS]

  backup we have a semi recent one and you [TS]

  know what you should do is you should [TS]

  take the phone and bring it to this [TS]

  guy's work where presumably there is a [TS]

  known a Wi-Fi network and you should [TS]

  turn the phone on and just let it sit [TS]

  overnight plug-in let it sit overnight [TS]

  and presumably if everything has been [TS]

  set the way it usually is set that will [TS]

  back up the thermal back itself up to [TS]

  iCloud one more time and it [TS]

  the implication from what we've read is [TS]

  that not everything in iCloud as well [TS]

  encrypted as perhaps we'd like it to be [TS]

  thus Apple could get to that data and [TS]

  handed over to the FBI and everyone's [TS]

  happy [TS]

  I'm actually honestly I'm pretty sure [TS]

  from Apple's point of view [TS]

  nothing I cloud is encrypted is so every [TS]

  big you can you can do the encrypted [TS]

  backups through itunes on your desktop [TS]

  and is off by default so for a while as [TS]

  we all learned whenever we get a new [TS]

  phone or phone with diabetic a [TS]

  replacement on with the render all our [TS]

  passwords and the reason why is because [TS]

  anything is encrypted on the device in [TS]

  the keychain which is all your passwords [TS]

  and stuff restored the by any [TS]

  unencrypted backup does not include [TS]

  those things so by default the itunes [TS]

  back up to and including unless you [TS]

  check little boxing and keep my backup [TS]

  which we all do because we are [TS]

  professional iphone restores but not [TS]

  everyone knows that and then with iCloud [TS]

  backups there is no option to encrypt [TS]

  iCloud backups at least not today maybe [TS]

  in the future there will be as a result [TS]

  of this but they are encrypted but Apple [TS]

  has the key [TS]

  alright so they aren't yet they are [TS]

  encrypted to apple [TS]

  no and so as a result nothing that's [TS]

  that's encrypted on the phone in key [TS]

  chain gets backed up so but it almost [TS]

  everything like any kind of like content [TS]

  you know text messages I i assume would [TS]

  be there any kind of you know appdata [TS]

  that's that's marked as be as being for [TS]

  backup [TS]

  so documents you've made an appt and [TS]

  everything those would be included an [TS]

  apple had access to all those an apple [TS]

  gave access to all of those to the FBI [TS]

  before this even blew up and became a [TS]

  thing because apple had access to them [TS]

  through my club but they only had an [TS]

  older backup if several weeks old it [TS]

  doesn't matter how many so they advise [TS]

  the FBI in san bernardino please take [TS]

  the phone to the San Bernardino [TS]

  government whatever particular branch is [TS]

  this person was in leave it on overnight [TS]

  and it all back yourself up to iCloud at [TS]

  which point the police and FBI awkwardly [TS]

  grabbed their collars pulling them away [TS]

  from their necks and said about that we [TS]

  might have changed his iCloud password [TS]

  already so that phone is gonna try to [TS]

  back up to iCloud maybe and it's going [TS]

  to see that it doesn't really have the [TS]

  right password so that's not gonna work [TS]

  right so the FBI's decided to ask Apple [TS]

  for a few things [TS]

  it's that it would like apple to write a [TS]

  custom build of iOS that as far as the [TS]

  FBI is concerned they are happy to be [TS]

  signed in such a way that it would only [TS]

  work on this particular device it will [TS]

  allow them to it will bypass the setting [TS]

  that will self-destruct the encryption [TS]

  after ten failed password attempts so [TS]

  they can attempt as many as I'd like [TS]

  additionally they like any sort of time [TS]

  delay to go away if there is one and I [TS]

  forget exactly when those came in when [TS]

  they're when they're when they're not [TS]

  but suffice to say there is a time delay [TS]

  they'd like to go away and additionally [TS]

  they like to be able to enter the [TS]

  passcode not by media fingers on the [TS]

  screen but by bluetooth or Wi-Fi or a [TS]

  cable or anyway so that it can be [TS]

  automated with an external computer [TS]

  the FBI is said we'd like to do it at [TS]

  our place or apple if you'd prefer we [TS]

  can do it at your house [TS]

  that's fine too the the endgame for the [TS]

  FBI [TS]

  is that they want to be able to throw a [TS]

  gazillion passcodes at this thing in a [TS]

  very short window of time to brute force [TS]

  their way into it so that by some [TS]

  measures and we'll get into what we [TS]

  think here in a second but some people [TS]

  will are of the opinion that that's a [TS]

  perfectly reasonable point of view from [TS]

  the FBI that they only wanted for one [TS]

  phone [TS]

  they only want to do it this once and [TS]

  they they're even willing to have apple [TS]

  do it in in cupertino and Apple's own [TS]

  environment and the FBI will either come [TS]

  to them or if Apple gives them like [TS]

  remote access to a machine that can [TS]

  enter passcode the FBI will do it [TS]

  remotely they don't care they just [TS]

  wanted this one time for this one phone [TS]

  to see if possibly maybe something on [TS]

  that will indicate that this was part of [TS]

  a wider terrorist plot rather than a [TS]

  couple of crazy people doing something [TS]

  that is really really on just uncool [TS]

  that's the FBI's perspective apples [TS]

  perspective is hey if we do this once [TS]

  that's establishing a legal precedent [TS]

  that means you can ask us to do this [TS]

  many many more times [TS]

  not only that but we would have to write [TS]

  code to do this and that seems a bit [TS]

  unreasonable to tell us to write a bunch [TS]

  of code to allow you to tu brute force [TS]

  your way into a phone that we've spent a [TS]

  long time trying to make sure that isn't [TS]

  possible [TS]

  beyond that a lot of government entities [TS]

  have come out of the woodwork over the [TS]

  last 48 hours saying you know what if [TS]

  this works for the FBI we have a bunch [TS]

  of iphones we'd like to do that for two [TS]

  ok cool sounds great so Apple is of the [TS]

  opinion that this is a backdoor and [TS]

  again we'll get into what we think in a [TS]

  second but apple says this is a backdoor [TS]

  and in fact just earlier today Tim Cook [TS]

  was didn't it especially with ABC News [TS]

  where he used the analogy that creating [TS]

  this is like creating a software version [TS]

  of cancer which by the way i think a [TS]

  virus would be a better analogy there [TS]

  then test as well yeah I thought he [TS]

  hammered that analogy a little too hard [TS]

  because it isn't that great of one he [TS]

  had [TS]

  a handful of talking points and [TS]

  unfortunately the interviewer had more [TS]

  than a handful of questions so it was [TS]

  just like after the first round was like [TS]

  which one of my talking points am I [TS]

  going to use a reply for this question [TS]

  yeah it was the same thing just over and [TS]

  over and over again which is really too [TS]

  bad but in any case so apples of the [TS]

  opinion this is a backdoor once we've [TS]

  done this once we're going to be asked [TS]

  to do it a thousand times we don't think [TS]

  it's fair to do it even once we don't [TS]

  think it's fair to us we don't think [TS]

  it's fair to our customers were not into [TS]

  it so the Apple is saying we're not [TS]

  going to do it and more than that [TS]

  Tim Cook said in this interview we are [TS]

  willing to go all the way to the Supreme [TS]

  Court fighting this because we think [TS]

  that's what's right is that a pretty [TS]

  reasonable summary of where we are today [TS]

  pretty much I mean like there's a lot [TS]

  more detail here that we could just just [TS]

  by stating everything we have either [TS]

  learned or that's been talked about over [TS]

  the last week or so since is really [TS]

  broke we could fill the whole hour and a [TS]

  half with this and we shouldn't because [TS]

  they'll take too long i think let's [TS]

  assume that everyone who wants to know [TS]

  more about this will will go and read up [TS]

  on whatever is new and whatever has [TS]

  happened so far and i think it's [TS]

  probably safe for us to talk about it [TS]

  now rather than just keep going over the [TS]

  details of it right [TS]

  good deal that's what we think it makes [TS]

  me sad every part of this makes me sad [TS]

  there there's so much of this that is [TS]

  that is just like crappy politics [TS]

  playing each other out and that mostly [TS]

  on the government's honestly I mean [TS]

  listeners of the show should know that [TS]

  we do not we do not shy away from [TS]

  criticizing Apple when it is warranted [TS]

  we will call them out on things that we [TS]

  think are BS or things that we think are [TS]

  worse than they should be or not or are [TS]

  just not you know not good enough in [TS]

  this case though I think I i think apple [TS]

  is mostly in the right and not a hundred [TS]

  percent in the right because and and [TS]

  again we should point also you know none [TS]

  of us for lawyers so you know I [TS]

  apologize to anybody listening to those [TS]

  who knows more about the law that we do [TS]

  who's screaming at whatever we don't [TS]

  mention or get wrong but I that the one [TS]

  thing that I think makes us a weaker [TS]

  argument for them [TS]

  is that it is technically possible for [TS]

  them to do this and I wonder in the [TS]

  future you know I I assume it's already [TS]

  somebody's project Apple it wasn't [TS]

  already i assume it is now somebody's [TS]

  project project of Apple 22 head and [TS]

  effort to actually make this impossible [TS]

  to do in the future to remove their [TS]

  technical ability to do anything like [TS]

  this and there are a number of ways that [TS]

  they could do that their number of [TS]

  challenges to that but ultimately i [TS]

  think i've mostly agree with apple that [TS]

  they i stand with them that they that [TS]

  they ideally shouldn't do this but it [TS]

  does weaken their argument a little bit [TS]

  that they can do it when you say can do [TS]

  it what you mean is I don't let me put [TS]

  words in my mouth and just make sure [TS]

  we're on the same page [TS]

  what you mean is they could write a [TS]

  custom version of iOS that is [TS]

  specifically for this one and only one [TS]

  phone that would get the FBI what [TS]

  they're asking for [TS]

  I think now first of all it is [TS]

  definitely worth reading this article [TS]

  and please forgive me for the [TS]

  presentation to get it wrong by Jonathan [TS]

  Villar ski he died i don't i don't know [TS]

  him but he appears to be somebody who [TS]

  specializes in iOS forensics and like [TS]

  testifying in court using iOS forensic [TS]

  tools and creating forensic tools and [TS]

  his his post here kind of explains that [TS]

  the legal implications of everything [TS]

  apple kind of have to do if they make [TS]

  this instrument the FBI's demand that [TS]

  they make [TS]

  I don't think the FBI is really asking [TS]

  for justice one phone to be decrypted [TS]

  once and that's it i think they're [TS]

  asking for the the continuous ability to [TS]

  do this you know whenever it is [TS]

  warranted or whenever there is a quarter [TS]

  or want to do it so it and even if they [TS]

  aren't asking for that now that's really [TS]

  what they're asking for like you know [TS]

  you like even if they're not asking for [TS]

  that in in the legal text that is what [TS]

  will happen here because this will set [TS]

  precedent and then it'll be so much [TS]

  easier next time someone asks for this [TS]

  to be like oh well you did it for that [TS]

  he this was important you know and and I [TS]

  think to cover that pretty well honestly [TS]

  I ultimately i think his interview on [TS]

  ABC news i watched it right before the [TS]

  show tonight i think is if you actually [TS]

  was very good overall there there were [TS]

  some parts that were a little bit [TS]

  uncomfortable and cringe-worthy but [TS]

  overall [TS]

  I think it was very good and I think he [TS]

  might very well and I think I think at a [TS]

  time like this [TS]

  this really shows this the strength of [TS]

  tim cook and and how how we are lucky to [TS]

  have to cook as the CEO of Apple during [TS]

  times like this I could not agree more [TS]

  this is exactly like where he shines [TS]

  like he is he is clearly and he said he [TS]

  shows in the past but you know this just [TS]

  you know shows more now he's clearly [TS]

  very principled and he won't be pushed [TS]

  around you know if it goes against his [TS]

  principles and and I think this is this [TS]

  just shows I mean you're not going to [TS]

  see any other company or any other [TS]

  executive put up the fight that he's [TS]

  going to put up on this it's simple as [TS]

  that I mean like you're not going to see [TS]

  anyone better than him fight this on [TS]

  that side of it that you know it again i [TS]

  could nitpick little few little things [TS]

  he said but overall I thought it was [TS]

  very good [TS]

  so honestly I i really do think that [TS]

  Apple is totally in the right to fight [TS]

  this only again only with an asterisk [TS]

  that it sure would be better if their [TS]

  actual answer was we actually can't [TS]

  technically do this it is impossible [TS]

  because then it's then it's you can [TS]

  argue whether that whether it should be [TS]

  legal to make things like that but you [TS]

  can't argue about this case anymore then [TS]

  because everyone's playing on everyone's [TS]

  emotions on this ever like and Tim do [TS]

  this to with his responses and he kinda [TS]

  had to but like you know like at the [TS]

  interviewers like well think about the [TS]

  victims and the FBI all about this is [TS]

  this is that this isn't about our [TS]

  ability to decrypt phones forever it's [TS]

  about these 14 families victims and yes [TS]

  it is it is about them and this horrible [TS]

  event happened this people were killed [TS]

  is that there is no there's nothing [TS]

  about that that is anything but horrible [TS]

  and a huge tragedy but the FBI is also [TS]

  using this for their political gain [TS]

  they knew that they set this case up as [TS]

  a perfect fighting battleground to fight [TS]

  this issue on that they believe they are [TS]

  entitled in this is not just the FBI [TS]

  this is all law enforcement and federal [TS]

  intelligence in America they believe [TS]

  they are entitled to access any [TS]

  information and any possessions and any [TS]

  people that they want to that they [TS]

  believe they need to get their job in or [TS]

  they just think might be a problem or [TS]

  might be relevant to crimes that might [TS]

  happen or might have [TS]

  happened they believe they're entitled [TS]

  to it all and they get it most of the [TS]

  time you know like I'm a quick walk with [TS]

  us look at everything we've learned from [TS]

  Edward Snowden's revelations about the [TS]

  NSA of the last couple years and and [TS]

  everything that's spun out from that [TS]

  it's very clear and a beat between that [TS]

  and between things that happened at [TS]

  lower levels of law enforcement whether [TS]

  just you know murdering people getting [TS]

  away with it it's very clear that long [TS]

  look at the culture of law enforcement [TS]

  in the whole country from from national [TS]

  down to local is incredibly entitled and [TS]

  and just kind of mad at they operate [TS]

  like a lawless military dictatorship and [TS]

  where they they are entitled to [TS]

  everything they want in their minds and [TS]

  they usually get it and even when it's [TS]

  illegal [TS]

  they do it anyway and they get away with [TS]

  it most of the time if I'd all the time [TS]

  they get they can with it almost all the [TS]

  time so they they are above the law in [TS]

  their minds they they believe they are [TS]

  entitled to everything and they'll say [TS]

  it's about national security but you [TS]

  know that's what that's what kind of [TS]

  like Angry macho neocon craziness in [TS]

  reality like that this culture they have [TS]

  is that they are entitled to everything [TS]

  all the time and whatever they want [TS]

  they're entitled to do their job you [TS]

  know whatever they think they're [TS]

  entitled to everything right and our [TS]

  country so far in recent years if not [TS]

  ever in recent years supports that we we [TS]

  support bye-bye what judges say by what [TS]

  the people do and don't get mad about by [TS]

  how quickly we all forget things we the [TS]

  people and the courts and all the way up [TS]

  to the presidency everyone in this [TS]

  system is complacent and permits this to [TS]

  happen so the reality is it doesn't [TS]

  really matter what's legal here [TS]

  what matters is what we will tolerate [TS]

  and they know that and so that's why [TS]

  they're playing his emotional buttons [TS]

  you know they're talking about the [TS]

  victims and families and Tim's talking [TS]

  about kids being you know if we know the [TS]

  location your kids this is why this this [TS]

  whole thing just makes me so sad it [TS]

  really does because I how she's I mean [TS]

  then let's just say that there's a read [TS]

  that there are reasons I don't usually [TS]

  talk about politics you know if you [TS]

  think I'm like negative and bitter about [TS]

  apple stuff this this is how i feel [TS]

  about politics [TS]

  I try to avoid as a topic for my own [TS]

  happiness insanity [TS]

  I just want to make one quick thought [TS]

  and then I'd like to hear what John us [TS]

  to say about this but as I was watching [TS]

  this interview tonight which I think was [TS]

  a little bit unfortunate because as you [TS]

  had said or one of us said yeah it was [TS]

  the same talking points from both sides [TS]

  just repeated over and over i feel like [TS]

  the entire interview could have been [TS]

  like four and a half minutes long but [TS]

  anyway I I caught myself sitting there [TS]

  listening to this and I thought to [TS]

  myself this is why we have Tim Cook you [TS]

  know this is why Tim Cook is here is for [TS]

  this very moment right now because I [TS]

  don't doubt that maybe Steve Jobs [TS]

  would've fought at the same way to ms [TS]

  but I don't know if you would have done [TS]

  as good a job at it and I am so [TS]

  unbelievably proud of tim cook and all [TS]

  of apple for standing up for what I [TS]

  believe to be right and for doing the [TS]

  right thing because this is not easy for [TS]

  really either side or anyone involved [TS]

  but particularly for apple and all the [TS]

  credit in the world to Apple as you said [TS]

  we have a tendency to to call it like we [TS]

  see it and sometimes we see it to be not [TS]

  so not so sunny but I I could not be [TS]

  more proud of appleton cook than I am [TS]

  right now [TS]

  John what do you have to say about all [TS]

  this I was thinking about how their job [TS]

  to handle that interview like at the [TS]

  very least he would have I mean Steve [TS]

  Jobs has more sort of natural charisma [TS]

  that then Tim Cook I I I feel like a lot [TS]

  of things when you're watching it if you [TS]

  are if you're supportive of apples [TS]

  position in this the interviewer asks [TS]

  the leading questions to try to you know [TS]

  get that get him to say something and [TS]

  Tim would just go back to his talking [TS]

  points not falling for the trap jobs [TS]

  would have said the things that were [TS]

  thinking like the sort of you know come [TS]

  back at him and you know take take more [TS]

  digs at the government and law [TS]

  enforcement Orton was always like you [TS]

  know we respect lon far as we want to [TS]

  work with them you want to work together [TS]

  jobs would have been to let the fact [TS]

  that he's pissed been you know be clear [TS]

  that he's pissed analysis is going unit [TS]

  to cook a little bit closer now it's a [TS]

  question whether that would have been [TS]

  actually better in terms of PR just you [TS]

  know it would be more satisfying for [TS]

  people who agree with them already would [TS]

  have been any more convincing people who [TS]

  don't in the court of public opinion I [TS]

  don't know [TS]

  so anyway that's that's a sideshow one [TS]

  thing that Marco said that stuck out to [TS]

  me was the idea that this feels worse [TS]

  because Apple can technically do this [TS]

  and again I don't want a lawyer I don't [TS]

  know about the legal consequences but [TS]

  when I think about it I think that is [TS]

  not relevant at all because of legal the [TS]

  question was is there's this two parts [TS]

  this one is the but Marco alluded to [TS]

  when he said well we better if they made [TS]

  a system that Apple couldn't break into [TS]

  prison they were just Apple to say well [TS]

  you know we can't do anything oh well [TS]

  sorry we can't help you like technically [TS]

  we can help you there's nothing we could [TS]

  do all the money and all the time in the [TS]

  world wouldn't solve this for us that [TS]

  immediately leads to okay we're just [TS]

  going to outlaw cryptography which is [TS]

  that it would be in terrible stupid rule [TS]

  because you cannot math and you know so [TS]

  whatever so that's one end of that but [TS]

  that's that's what I think this case is [TS]

  about when I think about it is just [TS]

  because Apple can do it doesn't mean the [TS]

  government can order them to do it like [TS]

  the government can't make any one of its [TS]

  citizens or corporations or entities or [TS]

  whatever do it compel them to do [TS]

  something just because they feel like it [TS]

  right there has to be established law as [TS]

  in when we issue you a search warrant [TS]

  you have to let us search right that's [TS]

  you know you can't just say you know it [TS]

  would be nice family wrote you know a [TS]

  custom operating system let's crack it [TS]

  into this phone [TS]

  yeah that would be nice wouldn't it but [TS]

  do you the government have the power to [TS]

  compel the corporation to do work for [TS]

  you because you think it would be cool [TS]

  like that that's why this is a legal [TS]

  case like this will be decided in the [TS]

  courts in with legislation and so on and [TS]

  so forth but the idea like Marco said [TS]

  that law enforcement you know they can [TS]

  technically do this when we just ask [TS]

  them to can we make them do that aren't [TS]

  we like in charge here like and the [TS]

  answer is no you can't really make them [TS]

  and have apple doesn't want to they're [TS]

  gonna challenge you and you're going to [TS]

  go through the legal system and try to [TS]

  figure out whether this is something you [TS]

  can even ask them to do so i always [TS]

  think it was as the notes here [TS]

  cryptography vs conscription can you can [TS]

  script a corporation to write software [TS]

  on your behalf you are law enforcement [TS]

  because you feel like it not based on [TS]

  any existing law on the books or any [TS]

  legal precedent over just because it's a [TS]

  thing that's possible and one of the [TS]

  things i think about that [TS]

  this is the same thing at all but like [TS]

  the idea that individuals and [TS]

  corporations can have rights [TS]

  the idea that the government can't [TS]

  demand that you testify against yourself [TS]

  you have the right to remain silent [TS]

  they cannot compel you to speak against [TS]

  yourself they may ask you you know where [TS]

  you were you on the date such and such [TS]

  and if they're accusing or something you [TS]

  can just not answer them and they can't [TS]

  compel you to answer because it is you [TS]

  could answer all it's much worse because [TS]

  you know you have a voice you could [TS]

  answer them if you want to i want your [TS]

  answer the question [TS]

  they can't compel you to because its [TS]

  your right to keep them and again this [TS]

  may or may not be speech or whatever but [TS]

  the whole idea that someone is capable [TS]

  of doing something does not mean well if [TS]

  you're capable of doing it [TS]

  the government should be able to compel [TS]

  you to do it that's it doesn't make any [TS]

  sense so that has to be sorted out in [TS]

  the law and then conceptually since [TS]

  we're late to the story and everyone's [TS]

  gone through all the details and we went [TS]

  through a lot of them already anyway the [TS]

  thing that really boggles my mind about [TS]

  this conceptually is like the the short [TS]

  view so many people have like people [TS]

  think you know people who are on the [TS]

  wrong side of this issue as in people [TS]

  who don't agree with me right [TS]

  I the incredible short view that like [TS]

  just big picture like pull back from [TS]

  this issue pull back from this one phone [TS]

  pull back from details about like how [TS]

  it's been since tailor-made to set a [TS]

  legal precedent and now you know like [TS]

  all the details of the other things want [TS]

  to decode stuff on whether you can do it [TS]

  with this one phone and think of the [TS]

  children and the terrorists victims and [TS]

  also the stuff in the details whether [TS]

  there's anything on the phone and and [TS]

  you know also by the way the code is [TS]

  probably 11 or 11 or 12 34 they just try [TS]

  this too close and will be unlocked but [TS]

  even if they did they would quickly lock [TS]

  it again because that's not what this is [TS]

  about yeah i mean if also if you're [TS]

  talking about like what's most likely [TS]

  has nothing on the phone yeah it's me [TS]

  way more likely that like that the [TS]

  person's work phone that he they had [TS]

  personal phones that they destroyed or [TS]

  were described it [TS]

  yeah it's very it's way more like the [TS]

  work phone has nothing useful on it but [TS]

  the FBI knows that and they that that's [TS]

  why this isn't about that it's about you [TS]

  know they they chose this case to [TS]

  publicize they chose to publicize it not [TS]

  and not do the negotiations and secret [TS]

  where Apple Apple requested they chose [TS]

  this because they knew that emotionally [TS]

  is that like the the will of the people [TS]

  would probably be on their side because [TS]

  they can play the angles of terrorism [TS]

  and victims and everything like all that [TS]

  that's what i'm getting at the the will [TS]

  of the people all right so i would be [TS]

  speaking to the people at this point [TS]

  that people who don't agree this is the [TS]

  right thing to do just keep pulling back [TS]

  from this case from this thing from [TS]

  phones from encryption from all the [TS]

  details or whatever and just think over [TS]

  the last several decades or whatever the [TS]

  general trend in American government has [TS]

  been people being afraid and looking for [TS]

  anyone who promises to make them safer [TS]

  and giving up rights to get that imagine [TS]

  safety from 9-11 on but even before that [TS]

  the whole idea was it if you scare [TS]

  enough people and say we can you know [TS]

  someone is going to kill you and your [TS]

  family unless we can tap all your [TS]

  telephone calls and read all your mail [TS]

  and all-you-can-eat like whatever it is [TS]

  just just a general trend of you put on [TS]

  a graph knew you could argue about [TS]

  specifics or whatever but there's no [TS]

  arguing that the general trend has been [TS]

  away from civil liberties and towards [TS]

  government has access to more and more [TS]

  stuff and that has been motivated [TS]

  generally by people being afraid either [TS]

  people making them afraid or people who [TS]

  generally being afraid of people take [TS]

  advantage of that fear to say now we in [TS]

  law enforcement can do our job better [TS]

  because you're afraid you need to give [TS]

  us these rights and time and again but [TS]

  law enforcement government proven that [TS]

  once they get the right they don't give [TS]

  him back the using the ways that they [TS]

  didn't say that they said they weren't [TS]

  going to use them the abuse them [TS]

  there's no repercussions for that and [TS]

  it's a ratcheting mechanism but never [TS]

  slide the other direction only goes to [TS]

  more and more and technology is enabling [TS]

  to do this now every individual point [TS]

  you can argue with like oh do I agree [TS]

  about this and what about phone [TS]

  wiretapping what about Snowden or [TS]

  whatever you can argue every individual [TS]

  point when you put it on a big graph [TS]

  this is a massive trend a massive [TS]

  long-term trend away from civil [TS]

  liberties and towards a loss of [TS]

  individual rights right [TS]

  specifically when it comes to law [TS]

  enforcement surveillance and privacy and [TS]

  so even in this individual case you just [TS]

  have to like you have to color all of [TS]

  your thinking to say is should we just [TS]

  continue to play out this thing on these [TS]

  individual battles slowly ratcheting our [TS]

  way up [TS]

  how does this all end like such a long [TS]

  slide you have to at some point say [TS]

  there's a limit you just can't keep [TS]

  asking for more and more and more and [TS]

  generations of people living and dying [TS]

  and just getting used to what the [TS]

  government does until like you just [TS]

  can't keep going in that direction [TS]

  forever it has to be a pendulum it has [TS]

  to be a cycle there has to be a swing [TS]

  and at some point you have to start [TS]

  swinging in the other direction some [TS]

  point the people you know your fear of [TS]

  being killed by terrorists has to be [TS]

  trumped by the granted much more [TS]

  intellectual ideas that are you know the [TS]

  country supposedly founded on of you [TS]

  know some amount of individual liberty [TS]

  and writes I guess that swing back and [TS]

  all the other direction like we have [TS]

  freedom of speech but we also have you [TS]

  know slander laws and you know can't [TS]

  yell fire in a crowded theater like it [TS]

  just like the basics of civics [TS]

  one-on-one that there are extremes and [TS]

  we are headed we've been headed in the [TS]

  other direction for so long that I just [TS]

  think that every problem that touches on [TS]

  this you at all has to be viewed in the [TS]

  context of the humongous long clear [TS]

  unidirectional slide that we've been in [TS]

  for so long and so anybody who's for [TS]

  this I have to say don't you know don't [TS]

  think of this individual issue [TS]

  do you agree that this we've been going [TS]

  this direction for far too long at what [TS]

  point do we need to turn around at what [TS]

  point do we need to start swinging the [TS]

  other direction [TS]

  I think personally we're way past that [TS]

  point but even if you don't think we're [TS]

  past that point if you're not thinking [TS]

  about that point it's just every time [TS]

  something comes up that you're afraid of [TS]

  or that you need your you know support [TS]

  the troops law enforcement is always [TS]

  right the the government is our friend [TS]

  of all blah [TS]

  if every single time something comes up [TS]

  you never even occurred to you to look [TS]

  at where we're going and how we have to [TS]

  swing in the direction and i'm far from [TS]

  you know a libertarian individual rights [TS]

  not job that I personally i'm far from [TS]

  now but I'm just saying like no matter [TS]

  where you are if you never if you never [TS]

  consider it like this movement this [TS]

  graph the suspect then it will never [TS]

  occur to adjust it and there's no like [TS]

  oh it will be too late like there is no [TS]

  too late [TS]

  it'll just be the new normal the normal [TS]

  the new normal the only thing we'll have [TS]

  to compare self-worth is the rest of the [TS]

  world that is hopefully slightly more [TS]

  saying in these matters lo the UK shows [TS]

  maybe not because they've got surround [TS]

  everywhere to do things need to [TS]

  eventually swing back in the other [TS]

  direction and it just seems like a [TS]

  anybody who is at this point against [TS]

  this thing is showing that they're [TS]

  thinking entirely with their their heart [TS]

  and their fear and all those things you [TS]

  know that do them credit in [TS]

  enrolled but when it comes to [TS]

  establishing legal precedence and giving [TS]

  power to the government to you know [TS]

  rights of privacy and against all these [TS]

  details like you don't know these [TS]

  details about encryption and all like [TS]

  it's too esoteric it's too that's why [TS]

  it's the perfect case for the [TS]

  government's to Tim Cook can't make the [TS]

  real case because it's too detailed your [TS]

  eyes glaze over you just like but [TS]

  terrorists bad give the government what [TS]

  they want right that is exactly the same [TS]

  thing that's got us do all the crazy [TS]

  things you've been doing some line 11 [TS]

  and I just feel he can continue to go in [TS]

  that direction forever [TS]

  everybody should at the very least every [TS]

  time they make any argument that they [TS]

  should have to explain why not only is [TS]

  this the right thing to do in this case [TS]

  but i believe that is essential for us [TS]

  to ratchet this thing up one more notch [TS]

  you know for for the for invading our [TS]

  privacy and forgiving law enforcement [TS]

  government power and I that is essential [TS]

  in this because if anyone says is just [TS]

  this one time or just as one thing or [TS]

  whatever it's like they have they [TS]

  haven't looked at history recent history [TS]

  or ancient history or any kind of [TS]

  history is not the way it works when [TS]

  someone gets power if they don't give it [TS]

  up again unless you take it from them [TS]

  yeah but honestly I i totally agree [TS]

  first of all I did everything you said [TS]

  is gold but looking at history and and [TS]

  looking at the present in the direction [TS]

  and everything I don't think I see a lot [TS]

  of evidence that it ever really does [TS]

  swing back in the direction [TS]

  well you know America itself was [TS]

  swinging the other direction that is it [TS]

  say there wasn't more authoritarian [TS]

  government control into a king then [TS]

  there was under the market is huge swing [TS]

  in the other direction are these does go [TS]

  back and forth in cycles like you just [TS]

  study history there are times where the [TS]

  government has more power over its [TS]

  citizenry and then less power and then [TS]

  more than less and you know it's clear [TS]

  which direction we're going in now and [TS]

  it's clear why in America anyway there's [TS]

  no reason we can't reverse that trend [TS]

  line you would think like oh well you [TS]

  know people like being under the King [TS]

  because it provides a measure of safety [TS]

  and a fat King like the you know the [TS]

  Mongol hordes are coming kill them [TS]

  wherever there's always some reason to [TS]

  be like yeah it's terrible but it's [TS]

  better than the alternative right but [TS]

  some people like you know if the King [TS]

  were chopping his head off and we're [TS]

  going to have our own system of [TS]

  government or whatever like we're [TS]

  throwing his tea overboard like those [TS]

  are big messy calamities but there are [TS]

  small victories as well I mean [TS]

  look at the Constitution has been [TS]

  amended many times to give people more [TS]

  rights and and it take rights away from [TS]

  the government say you know previously [TS]

  you could own people [TS]

  now we think that's not such a great [TS]

  idea so maybe write that into the [TS]

  Constitution or the effort example you [TS]

  can't drink alcohol anymore no nevermind [TS]

  you can you know [TS]

  previously we had the right to stop you [TS]

  from bringing alcohol then later we said [TS]

  no we probably shouldn't have that right [TS]

  yeah but on the other side of it like [TS]

  you like maybe I mean first of all you [TS]

  know there's different there's different [TS]

  versions of like a government that has [TS]

  too much power that's too oppressive [TS]

  that people revolt against or overthrow [TS]

  you know like it a grant this is way out [TS]

  of our usual comfort zone so please [TS]

  forgive me for anything i'm picturing [TS]

  here but you know like if you think [TS]

  about like the way that we are being [TS]

  oppressed by the surveillance and police [TS]

  states here it's in a way that most [TS]

  people don't care about because they [TS]

  don't think it affects them and so it's [TS]

  hardly if the government is taxing the [TS]

  crap out of you it you know like or [TS]

  taking your land stuff like that like [TS]

  you know if that's it that's happened to [TS]

  a whole bunch of people that's enough to [TS]

  make people revolt in most cases [TS]

  historically but if they're just like [TS]

  you know keeping records of your text [TS]

  messages and in these weird secret [TS]

  things that no one really thinks about [TS]

  her knows about and even were told they [TS]

  exist everyone look at well it doesn't [TS]

  matter [TS]

  and then we offer getting go watch the [TS]

  bachelor like I feel like that the ways [TS]

  in which things are going so badly that [TS]

  we're talking about here are ways that [TS]

  people don't care about enough but they [TS]

  care about them when there are [TS]

  consequences though [TS]

  well but but for most people there are [TS]

  no consequences that they see it doesn't [TS]

  matter if they're not it does not [TS]

  consequences for most people for [TS]

  anything it just matters that there are [TS]

  consequences for somebody you just need [TS]

  you just need basically you need an [TS]

  attractive young person to encounter a [TS]

  problem you know like that like it the [TS]

  same perfect storm that makes these [TS]

  things a great case of the FBI this is [TS]

  the opposite to write and and here's the [TS]

  thing that makes me optimistic about it [TS]

  because in general [TS]

  despite insane jerem answering and all [TS]

  sorts of other things we still have a [TS]

  system [TS]

  our people vote and so if people get [TS]

  angry enough the people who are in power [TS]

  get voted out and do people get voted in [TS]

  so it's always up to someone else to [TS]

  find a way to exploit the public to get [TS]

  them elected and people are always [TS]

  motivated to do that and they're smart [TS]

  people trying to get them like that [TS]

  instead of somebody else and so there [TS]

  will always be at least some way for us [TS]

  to effect change but also liked but over [TS]

  time you know as as as technology has [TS]

  progressed as the world has gotten more [TS]

  you know just more kind of globalized [TS]

  and you know as as like everything [TS]

  including manipulation and [TS]

  centralization of power as progressed [TS]

  what if what if depression by my [TS]

  government and by the by police [TS]

  apparatus apparatus [TS]

  what if this has actually gotten so good [TS]

  that now there's they're so good and [TS]

  things are so big and there's so much [TS]

  power cut concentrated in so few hands [TS]

  these days and the science of [TS]

  manipulating people and manipulating the [TS]

  media and controlling the messaging of [TS]

  everything [TS]

  everything [TS]

  that has gotten so advanced we have [TS]

  gotten so good at it or you know like [TS]

  that like a concentrated power basically [TS]

  and keeping those people in power that [TS]

  that kind of overthrow or change just [TS]

  doesn't happen anymore you like in in [TS]

  ways like certain forms of warfare [TS]

  basically don't happen anymore because [TS]

  we as a society have found more [TS]

  effective things you know it in to cover [TS]

  those those needs or wants a certain [TS]

  types of media don't exist anymore [TS]

  certain types of of legal issues are [TS]

  just not debated anymore certain types [TS]

  of freedoms are just assumed that we [TS]

  will either always have one that we will [TS]

  never have it seems like we've moved [TS]

  forward move past many things and we've [TS]

  advanced so much so I feel like the the [TS]

  the police states are so in control now [TS]

  of almost every fertile country and the [TS]

  guts of a combination of of the the [TS]

  establishment of control here along with [TS]

  these issues usually not bothering most [TS]

  everyday people in ways that they can [TS]

  notice or get mad about [TS]

  plus the ability for for the people who [TS]

  want to keep things this way to very [TS]

  effectively control the media narrative [TS]

  and I have media so centralized that's [TS]

  even possible [TS]

  I feel like the conditions are such now [TS]

  that the fact that a significant [TS]

  revolution can't really happen anymore [TS]

  does that make sense is am I just crazy [TS]

  your phone into the Illuminati trap [TS]

  where you imagine that it's possible for [TS]

  conspiracy of people to actually keep [TS]

  their stuff together and actually be [TS]

  all-powerful and controlling bottom line [TS]

  people are people [TS]

  that's what undoes all these things like [TS]

  the way if any grand conspiracy theory [TS]

  requires people to be so much more [TS]

  confident than anyone else so much more [TS]

  intelligent and capable and organized [TS]

  and able to keep secrets and able to [TS]

  read like that any conspiracy theory [TS]

  realizing that is obviously false [TS]

  because that just not happen there are [TS]

  no better set of people better able to [TS]

  control things and if the ends are [TS]

  saying before their maybe individual [TS]

  people who are good at that but there is [TS]

  opposition to each other and also all of [TS]

  them are just plain old people but their [TS]

  own stupid four balls and desires and [TS]

  things that don't make any sense and [TS]

  that general the general chaos of people [TS]

  being people means that it in the end [TS]

  but not saying it all works itself out [TS]

  but like i said as long as [TS]

  you're as long as you're not in the [TS]

  military dictatorship in which you have [TS]

  to have a bloody revolution to change [TS]

  things as long as we still have some way [TS]

  to change things about taking up arms [TS]

  which at this point would be a non [TS]

  workable anyway to get seriously the [TS]

  entire United States population versus [TS]

  the entire US Army if you set up that [TS]

  battle assuming both sides were highly [TS]

  motivated against it which makes no [TS]

  sense because the Army is made up of the [TS]

  children of the citizenry or whatever [TS]

  anyway if you can imagine that scenario [TS]

  we lose every time [TS]

  anyway doesn't matter as long as voting [TS]

  still hat functions in some tiny way [TS]

  which is getting tinier all-time granted [TS]

  but as long as it still works in some [TS]

  way and as long as people are still [TS]

  stupid people with their own weird [TS]

  desires and motivations that sort of [TS]

  like a dystopian sci-fi narrative where [TS]

  the diffuser rule the Illuminati rule in [TS]

  the Morlocks are just like lulled into a [TS]

  sense of and like in many ways idiocracy [TS]

  is more that much more plausible [TS]

  scenario in which everybody is a bunch [TS]

  of dunces cap but the idea that well I [TS]

  feel like the reason the Aqua sea [TS]

  resonates so much and we and we use it [TS]

  as as such a such an offer metaphor in [TS]

  these circles it is because that it like [TS]

  the way that I'm picturing there being a [TS]

  big problem for any kind of meaningful [TS]

  progress on these fronts is not the [TS]

  Illuminati situation it's not a big [TS]

  conspiracy theory if anything what we've [TS]

  seen over the last you know 10 20 years [TS]

  or whatever probably longer what we've [TS]

  seen is that the government or the those [TS]

  in power can do audacious things [TS]

  possibly even things that are illegal [TS]

  and they can just do them right in the [TS]

  open and if they message it correctly [TS]

  which they found more and more effective [TS]

  ways to do overtime as long as this [TS]

  message directly publicly they can get [TS]

  away with it almost every time but there [TS]

  are people there are people who are [TS]

  motivated to get them out of office [TS]

  other people want those jobs and they [TS]

  have the same tools and knowledge their [TS]

  disposal to battle them if someone does [TS]

  something like that it guaranteed when [TS]

  they get on there and come up for [TS]

  election and someone wants to run [TS]

  against them they're gonna bring up the [TS]

  thing and they're gonna bring it up in [TS]

  the unfavorable angle using all the [TS]

  tricks of the trade and emotional [TS]

  appeals like it that it that I think [TS]

  elections again not the cure for this [TS]

  elections are the the hedge against this [TS]

  because all the tools they have to get [TS]

  away with stuff people who want them out [TS]

  of office have you know to run against [TS]

  them to do the exact same thing but [TS]

  that's also based on a number of big [TS]

  assumptions of a that the population [TS]

  cares what people say independent [TS]

  election debates and everything but you [TS]

  have to have to learn how to make them [TS]

  care that's how you get elected you have [TS]

  the other do all the tricks in the book [TS]

  to get people i mean look at Donald [TS]

  Trump he's using all the tricks and the [TS]

  girls to get to get you know how to win [TS]

  the Republican nomination he's an idiot [TS]

  right how you doing that good season [TS]

  knows how to manipulate and play the [TS]

  game right now that I'm saying he's the [TS]

  greatest person but like if Donald Trump [TS]

  can you know get this close to being [TS]

  president shows that anybody can like if [TS]

  you don't really like it's that the [TS]

  tools are there for everybody [TS]

  everyone has access to what everyone [TS]

  could be on a reality show where they [TS]

  say you're fired everybody can put their [TS]

  face on it like all the tools are there [TS]

  for everybody and people are constantly [TS]

  hungry to kick out the old guys and [TS]

  bring in the new guys and I know it's [TS]

  possible because elections happen and if [TS]

  they can commit you to do it for them [TS]

  then they get the job and then they can [TS]

  be corrupted have power and do stuff [TS]

  whatever you know so like a given that [TS]

  sci-fi stories it's always like well or [TS]

  in military dictatorship sore in places [TS]

  like North Korea where the people have [TS]

  no power and literally sometimes have no [TS]

  food right like it it's much harder but [TS]

  in a first world country with us even [TS]

  remotely functioning government where [TS]

  people get to vote you there is always [TS]

  hope [TS]

  and even if it's a hope of like get the [TS]

  current terrible people out and get a [TS]

  different even more terrible but [TS]

  terrible in a different way person in [TS]

  that still hope it's not as if like it's [TS]

  going to be you know a military [TS]

  dictatorship where where the the supreme [TS]

  ruler passes it on to his son and so on [TS]

  and so forth in the only way you get out [TS]

  of it is with a bloody revolution or [TS]

  something so I'm not as pessimistic as [TS]

  you are about it because i think most of [TS]

  the most of the the the scenarios where [TS]

  it's like intractable and we're never [TS]

  going to escape from it just just don't [TS]

  work out a reality because people [TS]

  because people just people i guess that [TS]

  i hope you're right i'm done where you [TS]

  mean you usually are so I i have some [TS]

  confidence here you're generally right i [TS]

  mean it is not to say that like you [TS]

  can't be disastrous because i think one [TS]

  of them one of the sci-fi stories in [TS]

  this scenario [TS]

  that is plausible is like the one where [TS]

  you get the crazy person like Trump or [TS]

  something in there for like that was it [TS]

  firestarter anyway they want to spoil [TS]

  the bunch of people someone like Trump [TS]

  comes in and then like a nuke somebody [TS]

  and we all die like that's always a [TS]

  possibility but I feel like I lived [TS]

  through that as a child of the 80s and [TS]

  now it's like it's all hat now the whole [TS]

  world could blow up at any second [TS]

  because of a cowboy in the White House [TS]

  that's the possibility still out there [TS]

  so don't say that that's not gonna [TS]

  happen because it could but that again [TS]

  that could have happened back in the old [TS]

  the olden days of the eighties just as [TS]

  much as it can happen with President [TS]

  Trump and terrorists new things or [TS]

  whatever terrors nucleons by the way is [TS]

  exactly why they want to be able to [TS]

  wonder every single thing you do don't [TS]

  you afraid of terrorists new can you [TS]

  please let me have access to everything [TS]

  in your entire life and you have no [TS]

  rights and we can hold you to that trial [TS]

  forever [TS]

  Wow alright let's talk about something [TS]

  that's happy and awesome and then I have [TS]

  a question for you guys are final [TS]

  sponsor this week is Harry's go to [TS]

  Harry's calm and use promo code ATP to [TS]

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  purchase Harry's offers high-quality [TS]

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  it so much they bought it and the prices [TS]

  on these you cannot beat an 8-pack of [TS]

  blades just fifteen bucks a 16 package [TS]

  just 25 bucks you compare that to any [TS]

  comparable you find the drugstore and [TS]

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  competitive in the market to me this is [TS]

  the best burger in the shaping business [TS]

  bar not now Harry's also has incredibly [TS]

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  cream great gel if you want that instead [TS]

  they have a whole line of their face [TS]

  wash they have aftershave they have all [TS]

  those great stuff but really to me it's [TS]

  all about the blades and that those [TS]

  really nice handles they have this is [TS]

  you know it is a great website you go [TS]

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  know crazy drug stores getting in the [TS]

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  off your first purchase so go to Harry's [TS]

  calm right now get that sort of set 15 [TS]

  bucks you procreate epsa five dollars [TS]

  off your first purchase thank you very [TS]

  much too Harry sponsor show real-time [TS]

  follow-up I'm gonna blame this on the [TS]

  cold which by the way i have have you [TS]

  heard have a cult difficult not fire [TS]

  starter [TS]

  obviously the dead zone sorry brain fart [TS]

  there and you know as Donald Trump would [TS]

  say he could shield himself from an [TS]

  assassin by holding a young child in [TS]

  front of them still win the nomination [TS]

  alright no politics no my good now said [TS]

  yes seriously is there any better you [TS]

  talk about tonight well i have a [TS]

  question thats thats related but maybe [TS]

  less sad hopefully I said let's assume [TS]

  that starts and actually let's assume [TS]

  that uh that Apple is told you have to [TS]

  do this and you know the the the world [TS]

  is upset we are upset actually haven't [TS]

  talked that much about how this relates [TS]

  the rest of the world but anyway [TS]

  everyone's upset apples told they have [TS]

  to do this and apple says to its [TS]

  engineers you have to do this now what [TS]

  happens if all the engineers at work an [TS]

  apple that have any sort of knowledge as [TS]

  to how to make this happen just say no [TS]

  I'll get fired because this [TS]

  insubordination to think I've been one [TS]

  would assume i agree civil disobedience [TS]

  civil disobedience because basically [TS]

  like if you refuse to do what the law [TS]

  says you have to do that you accept the [TS]

  consequences of it which is either get [TS]

  fired to go to jail like I mean it like [TS]

  basically of apples CEOs refused to [TS]

  comply with the thing there in contempt [TS]

  of court or whatever you know thing and [TS]

  they asked if the people in charge of [TS]

  the company [TS]

  I cooperate and tell her subordinates to [TS]

  do in this importance don't then the [TS]

  subordinates to get fired for [TS]

  insubordination [TS]

  it's not as if there's some scenario [TS]

  where that we can all sit on their hands [TS]

  and say well you told us to do it and I [TS]

  told these guys do but they won't oh [TS]

  well like court orders a court order and [TS]

  there's consequences for whoever it is [TS]

  that decides to divide it and if they [TS]

  could feel this would be answers is a [TS]

  way to protest unjust laws but part of [TS]

  civil disobedience is that you accept [TS]

  the punishment associated with [TS]

  disobeying the law and that's [TS]

  part of civil disobedience oh yes that [TS]

  could happen but i really doubt it would [TS]

  I mean yeah eventually like you know if [TS]

  if Tim Cook was thrown in jail over not [TS]

  obeying a final court order then [TS]

  somebody else would replace them because [TS]

  the company have to continue operating [TS]

  somehow and then that person would [TS]

  authorize it or they go to jail the next [TS]

  person would like that you know it's [TS]

  like eventually you'd find somebody who [TS]

  would do it so that that's not really a [TS]

  way out and really it really speaking [TS]

  they would just do it if they were [TS]

  ordered to but then simultaneously what [TS]

  they would be doing is like Marcus said [TS]

  before up there already obviously you [TS]

  know working on an operating system that [TS]

  they themselves can hack into and that [TS]

  just leads to the next legal fight which [TS]

  is should it be legal to make this [TS]

  incision another incredibly stupid legal [TS]

  fight that like at a certain point law [TS]

  enforcement becomes just so misguided [TS]

  and what they want like in some respects [TS]

  I'd say they're already past that point [TS]

  I know but like when the system is [TS]

  working the way you expected to like law [TS]

  enforcement is highly motivated to to [TS]

  get all the powers they possibly can to [TS]

  to enforce the law and solve crimes [TS]

  right it's checks and balances that [TS]

  there has to be some opposing force the [TS]

  other sizes yeah law enforcement you may [TS]

  want this but civil rights dictate XYZ [TS]

  like and when the checks and balances [TS]

  get out of balance then we know that's [TS]

  why you get this long-term trend and [TS]

  what didn't take much to unbalance it [TS]

  just giant terrorist attacks on american [TS]

  soil and then it gets all unbalanced [TS]

  right can also make the minor correction [TS]

  that law enforcement incentive is not to [TS]

  solve crimes it's too close cases not [TS]

  necessarily solving them just to close [TS]

  the case solving them suggests they're [TS]

  doing it correctly in the grand scheme [TS]

  of things again people being people the [TS]

  idea is just to obtain power but [TS]

  whenever is that not get into and into [TS]

  motivations and a particular [TS]

  disincentives but anyway when things are [TS]

  working what like what I'm getting at is [TS]

  that it's not necessarily a bad thing to [TS]

  have two parts of your system of [TS]

  government that are in opposition to [TS]

  each other and both highly motivated [TS]

  doing everything they can [TS]

  it's a problem with one side keeps [TS]

  winning four decades on end because then [TS]

  you get you know they're not balancing [TS]

  each other anymore like there is no more [TS]

  balanced right but in this case in the [TS]

  crypto thing like say apples order to do [TS]

  it they do it two years later they come [TS]

  with new version of iOS they can't even [TS]

  crack into eventually all the old iOS [TS]

  devices we go out of you so no criminals [TS]

  are using them anymore [TS]

  and of course all the criminals upgrade [TS]

  to the one that applicant break into a [TS]

  similar scenario that comes up [TS]

  law enforcement has this thing they want [TS]

  to get into it Apple can't do it [TS]

  they're pissed off about it it becomes a [TS]

  legal issue you know the the senators [TS]

  and Congress people who think they can [TS]

  get better best get elected by scaring [TS]

  their citizenry into thinking this needs [TS]

  to be done they say it's outrageous that [TS]

  an American company can make phones the [TS]

  American government can't break into [TS]

  that should not be allowed so they [TS]

  proposed legislation that makes [TS]

  cryptography illegal right at that point [TS]

  you hope someone more enforcement would [TS]

  realize that it's it's a semi right [TS]

  America can make whatever it wants [TS]

  illegal you can't get rid of math like [TS]

  the rest of the world has the math [TS]

  people can write programs themselves and [TS]

  make cryptography that in theory can't [TS]

  be cracked by you know the world's [TS]

  biggest computers for some you know like [TS]

  that's you can't unring that Bell like [TS]

  that exists and some of you make it [TS]

  illegal for all that's gonna do is make [TS]

  law-abiding US companies not do that but [TS]

  everyone else can do it right and it is [TS]

  it's a it's a it doesn't help law [TS]

  enforcement right and it practically [TS]

  speaking the criminals including [TS]

  terrorists are not as sophisticated as [TS]

  people think they are but if they wanted [TS]

  to be like you know even even this guy's [TS]

  phone if you had used an alphanumeric [TS]

  password again the government when the [TS]

  FBI wouldn't be able to ask Apple to [TS]

  crack into it anyway because it would [TS]

  take too long right maybe did in his [TS]

  personal phone [TS]

  yeah well he destroyed that so anyway it [TS]

  that the way the system should work is [TS]

  American company should be able to make [TS]

  technology they want with the best you [TS]

  know cryptography available to them and [TS]

  the government should be able to spend [TS]

  its hold Jillian's of dollars in tax [TS]

  money to fund you know what are they [TS]

  called like a not black box budget but [TS]

  like you know budget that you there's [TS]

  some work like secret budgets you're not [TS]

  allowed to know how much money they [TS]

  spend like homeland security in the NSA [TS]

  by all means give this iphone to the [TS]

  NSA's experts and have them break into [TS]

  it using huge supercomputers you but [TS]

  with taxpayer money like if you figure [TS]

  out how to break in [TS]

  good on you right then wait you know [TS]

  because that's just that is a proper [TS]

  balance where people get the Jew you [TS]

  know could make better better [TS]

  cryptography unconstrained by the law [TS]

  and the government [TS]

  maybe it's a little bit unbalanced the [TS]

  government with [TS]

  huge funding gets to hire the smartest [TS]

  people in the world and build the [TS]

  world's biggest computers to try to [TS]

  crack that cryptography and you can have [TS]

  that battle that's the way it's worked [TS]

  for you know the forever in this country [TS]

  is that the government does have smart [TS]

  people to try crack things and people [TS]

  try to make uncrackable things on the [TS]

  outside and they go back and forth right [TS]

  but this is the new strategy of like we [TS]

  don't want to do that seems hard [TS]

  applications unlock it for us and so if [TS]

  it because it isn't about this phone [TS]

  it's about having having easier and [TS]

  faster access to any fun they want right [TS]

  to be a basically to be able I'm the [TS]

  boss of you i can make you do things [TS]

  yeah so anyway if if this Appaloosas [TS]

  this case apple will unlock the phone [TS]

  then Apple will use its lobbying power [TS]

  and its millions and try to rally the [TS]

  tech companies to try to get legislation [TS]

  to make this you know like it'll be the [TS]

  whole political process but eventually [TS]

  Apple making phone that they themselves [TS]

  can crack into uh and then that will be [TS]

  a political football where has to be who [TS]

  can can we try to make this illegal [TS]

  maybe that fight will be you know like [TS]

  it it's the same in all these things you [TS]

  would help eventually the public will be [TS]

  persuaded that apple and privacy and [TS]

  cryptography kind of has a point even as [TS]

  esoteric as it is it [TS]

  I think eventually it will be [TS]

  understandable enough that a big biggest [TS]

  like the crypto one you just have to [TS]

  explain him like making this legal apple [TS]

  doesn't do anything terrorists can do [TS]

  this right now [TS]

  you know it just doesn't matter all does [TS]

  is mean that it's easier for other [TS]

  people to get into your phone [TS]

  don't make it any easier for her people [TS]

  against terrorists phones because a [TS]

  terrorist don't do important things on [TS]

  phones and be that they wanted to [TS]

  encrypt things so that no one can get it [TS]

  except for them they could do it now [TS]

  they could have done it a decade ago [TS]

  that they have the technology that's not [TS]

  what's stopping you have a lot more help [TS]

  than I do for our people and our [TS]

  politicians and our law enforcement [TS]

  because everything you said can apply [TS]

  also to drugs like yday drugs illegal [TS]

  then regular people will be penalized [TS]

  for not having drugs but then everyone [TS]

  else will have drugs [TS]

  yeah they did it anyway and it's look [TS]

  what it's doing like it [TS]

  yeah that I would make I don't make the [TS]

  same big picture argument with the war [TS]

  on drugs or it's like it we're going to [TS]

  what you may think about an individual [TS]

  issue what has happened over the past 10 [TS]

  20 30 40 50 years in terms of the war on [TS]

  drugs and whatever the results but one [TS]

  of the intended goals and one of the [TS]

  actual results pin and maybe pick a [TS]

  different strategy if what you're trying [TS]

  to do is exactly opposite of what you're [TS]

  crossing to happen and that gets install [TS]

  you know puritanical America that [TS]

  actually doesn't deeper in America the [TS]

  whole idea of like finding who to blame [TS]

  or punished for solving the actual [TS]

  problem and yeah yeah I was not a [TS]

  political podcast know going into too [TS]

  many issues but some things some things [TS]

  do seem really intractable because of [TS]

  the particular nature of America we [TS]

  haven't talked about guns by the way [TS]

  from sure we'll get feedback about this [TS]

  all those arguments you a game [TS]

  cryptography exactly the same arguments [TS]

  you can give for any way that I can talk [TS]

  about guns anyway people have things but [TS]

  this it's it's kind of a shame that this [TS]

  is weird esoteric and techy because it [TS]

  in that way it would probably like Apple [TS]

  Apple could lose this one [TS]

  Apple Apple is going to lose one of the [TS]

  court of public opinion Apple could win [TS]

  it in the bill the legal court but even [TS]

  if Apple i quote unquote wins in court [TS]

  they're gonna come out of this as a [TS]

  company that half of America thinks that [TS]

  helps terrorist there's just no avoiding [TS]

  that which is a shame for Apple it's a [TS]

  shame for people who don't understand [TS]

  the larger implications who don't [TS]

  understand the the trends in American [TS]

  life over the past several decades or [TS]

  who agree with it because they're [TS]

  constantly terrified of everything [TS]

  because they watch you know fox news all [TS]

  the time I don't know or any news for [TS]

  that matter is most qualified watch [TS]

  MSNBC all the time and all they know is [TS]

  the things they're gonna kill him [TS]

  yeah that's that's a shame then that [TS]

  that's a bummer for Apple I mean it's [TS]

  got a bump them cookout because I think [TS]

  he's savvy enough person to know that [TS]

  even if he wins he loses a little bit in [TS]

  this one and that's why it's so it's so [TS]

  interesting and an admirable here on the [TS]

  side of it that that they are standing [TS]

  up for this because the upside for them [TS]

  is not large here but there's there is [TS]

  almost no upside for them like like I [TS]

  don't understand like you sell the [TS]

  upside is that they can sell more people [TS]

  phones like Marco said people don't care [TS]

  enough about this know there are going [TS]

  to buy the Apple phone because it's less [TS]

  likely the government can no one thinks [TS]

  about that like I there's barely any [TS]

  upside [TS]

  for that it like it is a net loss for [TS]

  Apple no matter how this turns out I [TS]

  feel like absolutely it's a huge loss [TS]

  and immediate the the silver lining i [TS]

  can see in this the only one I can [TS]

  really see in this is that Apple is no [TS]

  stranger to bad press you know and and [TS]

  22 negativity about them and and you [TS]

  know rumors or or slight mistress or [TS]

  even truth about that just suck being [TS]

  spread in the media very quickly and [TS]

  basically sticking around forever you [TS]

  know any kind of like you know iphone [TS]

  flaw or the or like the the quitting [TS]

  your apps they even or like the idea [TS]

  that they're like that they changed the [TS]

  the dock port to the Lightning port make [TS]

  you revile your cables they started [TS]

  because there's like it [TS]

  negative negative about Apple spreads so [TS]

  much in in the general population now [TS]

  that you know at this is not new for [TS]

  Apple this won't be the only negative [TS]

  thing about them that a lot of people [TS]

  truly or falsely believe and the other [TS]

  thing is that that might help them here [TS]

  is part of what makes it so hard for [TS]

  things like the Snowden revelations to [TS]

  really stick around in the news cycle [TS]

  that people will move on you know like [TS]

  next week [TS]

  Kanye West will say something and that [TS]

  will be like they didn't then all this [TS]

  won't matter anymore it's like be the [TS]

  the attention span of the of like the [TS]

  hot topic in American news is so short [TS]

  especially for something like this where [TS]

  you know like the Snowden stuff where [TS]

  it's kind of complicated and there's [TS]

  there's no good solution or endgame here [TS]

  that's going to happen and and just [TS]

  understand the topic in general is [TS]

  complicated like I've had a number of [TS]

  like like non-geeks bring up this topic [TS]

  in the last week or so since it came out [TS]

  and every time their reaction is not [TS]

  what is Apple doing to help terrorists [TS]

  it's what exactly is going on here [TS]

  because the it's a hard topic to [TS]

  understand if you aren't very technical [TS]

  and also haven't haven't like read a [TS]

  really good summary of it you know [TS]

  it'sit's all the very sensationalize and [TS]

  very you know very like you [TS]

  boosted by the media here and there but [TS]

  nobody really like in general people [TS]

  don't really understand it or don't have [TS]

  a very accurate picture of it so it's [TS]

  honestly I don't think it's going to [TS]

  stick around for very long at in the new [TS]

  cycle i think i think i'd be surprised [TS]

  if anybody was talking about two weeks [TS]

  from now to get some support for your [TS]

  pessimism marco by the way like if you [TS]

  think for for issues like this that are [TS]

  technical that people don't really care [TS]

  that much about that you need to come to [TS]

  be into the intellectual or legal side [TS]

  of it to really have it hold your [TS]

  attention because it's too complicated [TS]

  to think but otherwise very often leads [TS]

  to terrible laws that take a long time [TS]

  if ever to go away doesn't mean they'll [TS]

  never go away [TS]

  it just means that we may all be dead [TS]

  some recent examples are like the dmca [TS]

  all the weird you know stuff involving a [TS]

  cable television and breaking encryption [TS]

  on on ink cartridges for printers and [TS]

  like all the laws that most of those are [TS]

  my corporate lobbying obviously but laws [TS]

  that are about technical issues like if [TS]

  the if I feel like really feel like if [TS]

  you took any individual American put [TS]

  them into room and playing explain the [TS]

  dmca actual consequences of it they [TS]

  would come down on the side that this is [TS]

  a stupid law you know they would [TS]

  understand the motivations but this is [TS]

  not the way to do it because it can be [TS]

  abused in all these ways and look at how [TS]

  it works and blah blah but the bottom [TS]

  line is that pass it's still lame it's [TS]

  not going away anytime soon eternal [TS]

  copyright another great example you can [TS]

  explain someone that until you're blue [TS]

  in the face you could probably convince [TS]

  pretty much everybody individually but [TS]

  overall people like their I don't know [TS]

  whatever they should know Mickey Mouse i [TS]

  guess like no one no one thinks about [TS]

  the long-term consequences of copyright [TS]

  without end or any like outlying [TS]

  encryption is an entire patent system [TS]

  yeah the entire patent system like [TS]

  outlawing encryption with that we can so [TS]

  could the outlaw encryption despite how [TS]

  stupid is like I'm hoping that law [TS]

  enforcement realize Alan carpet is [TS]

  pointless they wouldn't even pursuit but [TS]

  it in pursuit they get it because law [TS]

  enforcement is is not a culture of [TS]

  trying to understand things it's not a [TS]

  culture is like somethings are you know [TS]

  like you need people sort of subject [TS]

  matter experts thinking about the [TS]

  consequences and then also tear them [TS]

  with people who are good at convincing [TS]

  other people to do what they say and [TS]

  that's how you get good [TS]

  it's really easy to get bad laws we have [TS]

  lots of examples of bad laws on you're [TS]

  just hoping that like and what what I'm [TS]

  getting at is that your pessimism is not [TS]

  this not this is like it you know a [TS]

  one-way slide into doom [TS]

  it's just that some of these things like [TS]

  a really really long time turn around [TS]

  long enough that you know we won't live [TS]

  to see them like do you think you'll [TS]

  never live to see the dmca taken away [TS]

  no probably not you think we'll ever [TS]

  lived to see reasonable copyright or [TS]

  patent office certainly not right but [TS]

  doesn't mean those things are hopeless [TS]

  and they will never swing back in the [TS]

  other direction because all you need it [TS]

  because people are so fickle and have [TS]

  short attention spans and can't be into [TS]

  the intellectual details of every single [TS]

  freaking thing that the government does [TS]

  this system is always ripe for a small [TS]

  group of smart smart people to [TS]

  capitalize on a crisis in a way to make [TS]

  something good happen instead of [TS]

  something bad and that is always a [TS]

  possibility in any sort of democracy is [TS]

  that's why I think long-term [TS]

  we'll never get to the really cool [TS]

  dystopian sci-fi movies because well i [TS]

  always think about when i watch those [TS]

  movies like that's fine but long-term [TS]

  long-term like I mean even though you [TS]

  have the rise of Hitler right eventually [TS]

  people realize we should fight this guy [TS]

  right and it's like you go you'll never [TS]

  have something like that would be [TS]

  affected well what about Hitler he was [TS]

  pretty terrible he was your right but it [TS]

  didn't lead to and it's Hitler forever [TS]

  like you know people die people are [TS]

  killed people fight like again we can [TS]

  all new car selves and that makes it [TS]

  that doesn't satisfy believe everybody's [TS]

  nukes like I could happen and then you [TS]

  know the machines take over i guess i [TS]

  don't know but the ones where it's just [TS]

  like a bunch of people who sort of like [TS]

  boiled frog and they slowly they slowly [TS]

  slowly like find themselves increasingly [TS]

  dire situations they can't get [TS]

  themselves out of it and then you just [TS]

  fast-forward like thousands of years and [TS]

  it never gets any better [TS]

  that just doesn't seem possible to [TS]

  because in the end people people they [TS]

  don't want to be uncomfortable they [TS]

  don't wanna you know be sad or hurt they [TS]

  want to just hang out and the holodeck [TS]

  will kill everybody we all know that but [TS]

  aside from that our fine I'm too [TS]

  depressed even make infant timescale [TS]

  joke [TS]

  you don't even times the holiday key you [TS]

  need a holodeck and that's it end of [TS]

  humanity sorry everybody [TS]

  this on that happy note i think we're at [TS]

  a time tonight you want to give some of [TS]

  the topic anyway just done that even [TS]

  though we'll go over time I don't care [TS]

  now we can we do in the post-show thanks [TS]

  143 sponsor this week Squarespace [TS]

  fracture and Harry's and we'll see you [TS]

  next week [TS]

  now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

  mean to be in because it was accidental [TS]

  death was accidental [TS]

  Jonathan [TS]

  research Marco in kc wouldn't let him [TS]

  because it was accidentally was [TS]

  accidental and you can find the show [TS]

  know today d p dot and if twitter follow [TS]

  them [TS]

  yes byl ISS so that's king list and a [TS]

  co-pay rm20 Marco Arment and our AC [TS]

  Syracuse [TS]

  what [TS]

  alright so what do you want to talk [TS]

  about that uh what's happy these days [TS]

  anything else besides this and I want to [TS]

  save my blue right thing for a happier [TS]

  more tech-heavy week when we come out of [TS]

  this politics Jones and swear never to [TS]

  talk about it so it's you know it's [TS]

  apple's fault right [TS]

  it's not like we choose it's like the [TS]

  car thing it's like Apple building a car [TS]

  window you know we had a car podcast [TS]

  when now we have a tech podcast then [TS]

  Apple decides they're gonna make car [TS]

  maybe allegedly possibly that's not [TS]

  that's not on us but it's not like you [TS]

  said you just wanted to talk about cars [TS]

  again i'm not making their be rumors [TS]

  about Apple making car and similarly we [TS]

  don't want to talk about politics on the [TS]

  show we avoid as much as we can but then [TS]

  Apple is that you know the main tech [TS]

  company to talk about the show has to [TS]

  get into a big fight in the government [TS]

  on a political issue [TS]

  what can we do like it with that's I'm [TS]

  sorry you know it had to happen and it's [TS]

  very difficult to talk about political [TS]

  issues without getting political so if [TS]

  you're angry that we talked about the [TS]

  politics and the show and you're [TS]

  thinking of sending us an email or tweet [TS]

  that tells us we should stick the [TS]

  technology we were blame apple blame the [TS]

  government [TS]

  this is a technology related issue [TS]

  hundred percent so is that the happy [TS]

  topic now that's just like the the [TS]

  pre-emptive preemptive whining I this [TS]

  one I feel like we should pull the [TS]

  record be done [TS]

  yeah I don't really wanna talk with mac [TS]

  pro is there news i don't know i don't [TS]

  buy I'm not gonna buy American alright I [TS]

  want to know if there was news but it is [TS]

  known as that of course if they're [TS]

  always assume there's no news with the [TS]

  mac pro because almost all the time with [TS]

  the exception of fillers activation [TS]

  every other time there's no news about [TS]

  the macro all there was the repair thing [TS]

  where everyone's macros that were like [TS]

  failing there like a repair extension [TS]

  program to help them right god damn it [TS]

  that wasn't this week though I know as [TS]

  semi-reasonable I feel bad for my cuz he [TS]

  sold as it was flaky but he could if he [TS]

  kept a little bit longer could have got [TS]

  a you know all the guts that presumably [TS]

  don't suffer from whatever weird [TS]

  problems he was having yeah but the imac [TS]

  has been a computer for him anyway I [TS]

  thought you know just it's great for [TS]

  putting your iPad in front of a nice [TS]

  backdrop but screen set right look at it [TS]

  while uses ipad in front of it [TS]

  well I've had people you don't want them [TS]

  that that's not know that they have good [TS]

  news they have a pencil news this thing [TS]

  oh yeah we didn't mention that yeah with [TS]

  the 9.3 the time [TS]

  three beta at all the bases until now [TS]

  had had removed the ability to use the [TS]

  Apple pencil to do certain you I tasks [TS]

  like scrolling list and panning things [TS]

  and and our friends know that over the [TS]

  last few weeks and months as the [TS]

  Nightwatchman beta and then we heard [TS]

  from a few people i think including a [TS]

  tipster that this was actually not a bug [TS]

  this is actually a choice apple had made [TS]

  that the pencil shouldn't be used for [TS]

  these things and then over the last few [TS]

  days a whole bunch of people were [TS]

  articles about it last week or two weeks [TS]

  ago cortex complained about it very [TS]

  effectively and so there's a whole bunch [TS]

  of of complaining about over the last [TS]

  couple of weeks and then apple announced [TS]

  yesterday I believe that [TS]

  well they gave a wonderfully spun PR [TS]

  statement to the effect of we always [TS]

  plan to do it this way band next beta [TS]

  it'll be it'll be back here just [TS]

  temporarily removed you know of course [TS]

  that of course it wasn't and of course [TS]

  that was PR spin but it's fine let's see [TS]

  at i don't know like I don't know if you [TS]

  take that at face value because the [TS]

  thing it again this is the more open [TS]

  apple which is nice that they're telling [TS]

  us like in the old Apple wouldn't tell [TS]

  us at all like we would you know be [TS]

  under NDA and developers well they told [TS]

  us something [TS]

  baby steps right but the real thing is [TS]

  that i wasn't thinking of is like what [TS]

  would be the motivation for moving this [TS]

  functionality is I think Stephen on [TS]

  Twitter had a couple of speculation [TS]

  about what it might be but he was wrong [TS]

  i'm like why would they remove it like [TS]

  assume it's intentional right and assume [TS]

  they're not telling you this intentional [TS]

  because they don't want to i'm just [TS]

  trying to get a plausible reason for [TS]

  them to intentionally remove it I got it [TS]

  can't come up with anything [TS]

  the the best reasons i heard were one [TS]

  was was the idea that you should you [TS]

  could be like scrolling things with your [TS]

  finger but you should only be using the [TS]

  pencil tool like tap or make marks on [TS]

  things and enter to kind of clarify what [TS]

  the pencil is used for but like you know [TS]

  people aren't idiots they they know what [TS]

  the pencils for like it so I think [TS]

  that's not a great reason the the other [TS]

  reason I heard that was more i think [TS]

  more likely more credible was simply [TS]

  that Apple didn't want to didn't want [TS]

  people to get into the habit of not [TS]

  using touch as the primary interface to [TS]

  iOS in general so the overall you [TS]

  by overall usage of these devices they [TS]

  wanted the primary interface to remain [TS]

  touch and I don't want anybody like [TS]

  making apps that had a bunch of tiny [TS]

  touch targets and then they want people [TS]

  to be using pencil full-time but the [TS]

  reality is that is not that is not also [TS]

  a good enough reason like that [TS]

  first of all like if people make after [TS]

  the context targets [TS]

  who cares if there's truly if that's [TS]

  truly not all people are doing that's [TS]

  what succeed the market will solve that [TS]

  problem that's that's such a bad reason [TS]

  that i like to think that it wasn't [TS]

  there but but here it's a thing about [TS]

  that is a modern Apple research so the [TS]

  same say that was the reason [TS]

  what I would like to c is for Apple to [TS]

  say that like why can't that debate ever [TS]

  happened in public places like a half [TS]

  debate where they passive-aggressively [TS]

  do something don't tell you why people [TS]

  complain and the reverse it and never [TS]

  told you why they were going to do in [TS]

  the first place instead of like the [TS]

  first beta comes out with it [TS]

  news sites realize that it's the this is [TS]

  the thing they write stories about it [TS]

  and there's a public dialogue where [TS]

  Apple immediately says 10 guys you [TS]

  understand here's why we did this we did [TS]

  it because we don't want people making [TS]

  an absolute touchstart well at least you [TS]

  could have a real debate about like the [TS]

  merits of the issue as opposed to now [TS]

  where the debate happens entirely [TS]

  internally and it's just a one-sided [TS]

  thing where people complain outside and [TS]

  and maybe you're screaming into a void [TS]

  or maybe apples listening [TS]

  did you convince them or maybe they're [TS]

  going to say it was an accident like you [TS]

  get this whole black box thing we don't [TS]

  know another word we need to be privy to [TS]

  everything that's going on there but [TS]

  just think it would behoove everyone in [TS]

  this relationship dysfunctional [TS]

  relationship between customer in [TS]

  cooperation to speak openly with each [TS]

  other to believe enough in each other [TS]

  for Apple to tell us the real reason [TS]

  they want to make a functional change in [TS]

  the OS and then we can talk about the [TS]

  reasons why we think that's dumb or you [TS]

  know like instead of just saying we can [TS]

  tell this is a mistake or not but God if [TS]

  it is intentional please don't do it is [TS]

  maybe Apple convince us maybe they have [TS]

  a really good reason that we haven't [TS]

  thought of right or maybe you know the [TS]

  reason has to do with unreleased product [TS]

  that we don't know about and they can't [TS]

  tell us i understand this is always [TS]

  going to be a limited situation here I [TS]

  just feel like it would be a healthier [TS]

  it would be healthier feedback loop [TS]

  between customer and cooperation not [TS]

  that either one has entire rights to [TS]

  know what the other one thing all the [TS]

  time but that we need to get closer to a [TS]

  relationship where people like Marco [TS]

  don't assume that app everything apple [TS]

  says it all [TS]

  because they're not gonna reveal the [TS]

  real reason why didn't I I just think [TS]

  the PR statement was pretty clearly BS [TS]

  but it doesn't really matter why don't [TS]

  you just assuming it is but like because [TS]

  the reason sounds so dumb to you but [TS]

  then you don't know what to think do you [TS]

  think like are they being disingenuous [TS]

  why would they hide especially if [TS]

  they've changed their mind when you come [TS]

  out and say we were originally doing a [TS]

  reason x but now we're convinced that [TS]

  will be the truth that the truth would [TS]

  be we have this reason people complained [TS]

  we were convinced by their complaints [TS]

  that are reasons don't Trump their [TS]

  desires [TS]

  therefore we changed our mind like [TS]

  that's healthy that's a healthy dialogue [TS]

  instead of if you know again if what [TS]

  you're saying is true [TS]

  instead of pretending that that wasn't [TS]

  really the case you know we always meant [TS]

  to do this right assuming again assuming [TS]

  they're pretending it just seems like a [TS]

  dysfunctional relationship [TS]

  yeah I don't know at least this is fixed [TS]

  you know like ph.d it but whatever [TS]

  whenever people in our parts make big [TS]

  complaints about about a change apple is [TS]

  floating in a beta we always hear from [TS]

  people i always see people responding or [TS]

  is already trying to me if I'm on the [TS]

  critics like what do you like why do you [TS]

  bother doing is you're just you [TS]

  complaining what Apple but the reason [TS]

  why they're doing it because it works [TS]

  because at the end these things do tend [TS]

  to get fixed [TS]

  well it's random reward it works [TS]

  sometimes it works randomly like it [TS]

  worked every time it wouldn't be as [TS]

  motivating to do it work never we would [TS]

  never do it but it works enough for the [TS]

  time [TS]

  well i think you know if these kind of [TS]

  decisions these are probably debated [TS]

  inside apple right almost every almost [TS]

  every decision that that like we get mad [TS]

  about chances are people in apple were [TS]

  also mad about them and and they argued [TS]

  about them and so when when Outsiders [TS]

  pile onto the argument or draw attention [TS]

  to the argument that helps that side in [TS]

  the app inside Apple win the argument or [TS]

  it helps change people's minds so it it [TS]

  is very effective and and it again [TS]

  you're gonna win every time because like [TS]

  if you try to argue for something like [TS]

  well you know what I'm tired of a [TS]

  particular shouldn't be a preview like [TS]

  well you know you're not going to win [TS]

  that that's unlikely keep arguing that [TS]

  because someday like that will be on the [TS]

  title infinite time scale it will be on [TS]

  the table and yes I got it well is you [TS]

  know and other examples you can complain [TS]

  about the file system for I don't know a [TS]

  decade alright we feel better now and [TS]

  and then you know maybe eventually [TS]

  they'll come around but but yeah now [TS]

  that means the function of the the tech [TS]

  press like I mean this is happening [TS]

  whether you know whether Apple admits it [TS]

  out of course it's always been happening [TS]

  because i was made up of people and they [TS]

  read tech press about themselves because [TS]

  you know that's the way it works and as [TS]

  you pointed out there's always [TS]

  dissension within the company but in the [TS]

  end certain people are in charge and [TS]

  certain people aren't and apples not a [TS]

  democracy and neither is the press and [TS]

  neither is anything else but we're just [TS]

  trying to get as a healthier symbiosis [TS]

  where Apple's potential customers are [TS]

  telling it what they would want and [TS]

  apple it wants to give customers what [TS]

  they want but maybe not those customers [TS]

  maybe they see other customers are not [TS]

  currently talking to wear that are you [TS]

  know like again it's not it's not as a [TS]

  customer should be in charge of apples [TS]

  as Apple's should be in charge of the [TS]

  customers it's just the and its opening [TS]

  up like I feel like the dialogue is [TS]

  opening up more than used to be and this [TS]

  is healthy [TS]

  we just have a ways to go yet do you [TS]

  guys use the ipad pro Marco what you [TS]

  told me in jar me into you and tiff [TS]

  oh she uses that uses mine and she uses [TS]

  the pencil navigate bunch of stuff and [TS]

  if i use the ipad pro or any ipad on a [TS]

  regular basis i would certainly consider [TS]

  doing the same thing because i like the [TS]

  pencil a lot as an input device it is [TS]

  really nice and that's all I mean it is [TS]

  also targeting other people have made [TS]

  about it being either more efficient or [TS]

  better for advanced work or better for [TS]

  ergonomics for an operator for [TS]

  accessibility for certain people or just [TS]

  feels better that the mic argument is [TS]

  sometimes it just feels better [TS]

  exactly if I were an ipad user or if I [TS]

  was the kind of person who likes writing [TS]

  things with pens and pencils i would [TS]

  certainly be using it all the time but [TS]

  neither of those things apply to me [TS]

  unfortunately so it's not it's not [TS]

  really for me but I do respect a lot as [TS]

  a really nice input device i do wonder a [TS]

  little bit though like that in these [TS]

  type of feedback cycles and [TS]

  relationships that is part of the reason [TS]

  the old Apple would not do something [TS]

  like this because it was seen as like a [TS]

  sign of weakness like oh we weren't we [TS]

  weren't right we were wrong about [TS]

  something we need to change it but part [TS]

  of it is also that is legitimately like [TS]

  taking taking the the angry feedback [TS]

  from your most enthusiastic [TS]

  users as a way to design your products [TS]

  is a formula for death like apple [TS]

  doesn't do that for a good reason you [TS]

  never want to like just listen to your [TS]

  most enthusiastic users because you will [TS]

  evolve your product in a way that caters [TS]

  more and more to like the the the expert [TS]

  the super enthusiastic and you will [TS]

  never you never get something like the [TS]

  iPhone because the super Apple [TS]

  enthusiast for like drawing pictures of [TS]

  like OS 10 on a phone or something you [TS]

  know I mean like apple doesn't do that [TS]

  to its credit knows the trap of our [TS]

  microsoft office on so many ways to keep [TS]

  adding features because your excellent [TS]

  features and you go to your experts [TS]

  forever but for the ipad pro it's kind [TS]

  of a sign that Apple realizes that at [TS]

  this point the ipad pro history that [TS]

  fanatical group of users who really love [TS]

  the thing that's all they've got at this [TS]

  point like they if they're going to [TS]

  betray those people for some larger [TS]

  market that they they don't have faith [TS]

  that will materialize so they better [TS]

  listen to the most passionate ipad pro [TS]

  users because there aren't many ipad for [TS]

  users presumably and it is kind of a [TS]

  high-end enthusiasts product like [TS]

  there's a hole that line of ipads for [TS]

  the rest of the world and phones the [TS]

  rest of the world but for the ipad pro [TS]

  now if you're gonna listen to anybody [TS]

  about anything like that's where you [TS]

  would do it on the other hand at the [TS]

  ipad pro is burning up the sales chart [TS]

  and everybody was buying one and it was [TS]

  like taking over the mac and mac sales [TS]

  are going down fifty percent and ipad [TS]

  pro sales we're gonna be like half the [TS]

  iphone sales next year they would feel [TS]

  confident to ignore those people and say [TS]

  it's more important to go with our gut [TS]

  instinct of whatever their internal [TS]

  reasoning is so in some ways it gives me [TS]

  a you know a view of how Apple sees the [TS]

  current state of the ipad pro market [TS]

  they're not in a position right now to [TS]

  just do what they want it you know [TS]

  despite the the house of enthusiasts [TS]

  whereas on many other markets for [TS]

  example the iphone people howling to be [TS]

  able to sideload apps Apple confidently [TS]

  ignored them as the sales graph for [TS]

  iphones when do you know up like a ski [TS]

  jump and that's that they were in a [TS]

  position of strength there but on the [TS]

  ipad pro not right now [TS]

  yeah as much as it as much as it sucks [TS]

  for Apple to be like losing things as [TS]

  you know as much as it sucks for them [TS]

  I like what comes out of them when they [TS]

  have like a fire learn to them you know [TS]

  I like when there [TS]

  not in a dominant position when they're [TS]

  fighting really hard that tends to be [TS]

  when the best stuff comes out of them [TS]

  except for TV boxes [TS]

  sorry low blow so much competition in [TS]

  that market that's a different topic [TS]

  that's my honestly have you used it [TS]

  that's my blu-ray top i know i know i [TS]

  know i'm just saying I i also thought [TS]

  there was so much competition that was [TS]

  really good until i tried to use the [TS]

  competition [TS]

  well there is this lot of competition is [TS]

  not really good yeah that's that's fair [TS]

  is that a fire little members just like [TS]

  a tepid water dripping on their toes i [TS]

  don't know it's called fire but yeah it [TS]

  doesn't really work that way I'd like to [TS]

  set it on fire [TS]