The Accidental Tech Podcast

157: As Many People in the Sandbox as Possible


  the following is the complete list of [TS]

  saying states in these United States of [TS]

  America that require only a real rear [TS]

  license plate Alabama Arizona Arkansas [TS]

  Delaware Florida Georgia Indiana Kansas [TS]

  Kentucky Louisiana Michigan Mississippi [TS]

  New Mexico North Carolina Oklahoma [TS]

  Pennsylvania South Carolina Tennessee [TS]

  and West Virginia you'll notice that [TS]

  very nearby states North Carolina [TS]

  Pennsylvania West Virginia all no front [TS]

  license plate frame virginia now out of [TS]

  curiosity can you think of any other [TS]

  criterion for which those would be [TS]

  listed as the same States not off the [TS]

  top of my head so we should i do some [TS]

  follow-up and follow ya keep you I Scott [TS]

  I can't believe I just did that I swore [TS]

  I'd never do that on a podcast just just [TS]

  hated me into it [TS]

  I hate everything alright i quit anyway [TS]

  I'm so we had some feedback about my [TS]

  ipad tale of woe [TS]

  we had a lot of private feedback from my [TS]

  curly the once ipad hater now King ipad [TS]

  evangelizer I'm i would never said I [TS]

  would never classified as a hater he was [TS]

  more of an ipad in different here and [TS]

  that's a word that is made up i don't [TS]

  know maybe he was fairly anti pad for a [TS]

  while there but anyways he gave me some [TS]

  feedback they basically said i didn't [TS]

  know what i was doing and that's the [TS]

  problem which I believe I admitted a lot [TS]

  of people basically said the same thing [TS]

  and the point you know I was trying to [TS]

  make was hey you know all this stuff [TS]

  comes right out of the box [TS]

  I know s10 and it is not on the ipad i [TS]

  accept a lot of people wrote in to say [TS]

  that you can in fact do a signature on a [TS]

  PDF on an iOS device and apparently [TS]

  there's a toolbox which to me looks like [TS]

  a briefcase icon and within there is the [TS]

  annotations and markup and whatnot and [TS]

  within their you can do a signature i [TS]

  have not had the chance to try this [TS]

  myself but I had plenty of people tell [TS]

  me about this so I'm taking it as fact [TS]

  that is the case so that is just a [TS]

  little bit of follow-up you can indeed [TS]

  do the signature on an iOS device did [TS]

  you mistake the briefcase icon for the [TS]

  windows 95 my briefcase he used you say [TS]

  that jokingly but I was a heavy [TS]

  briefcases our way back and a [TS]

  because that was about the best way in [TS]

  the windows world to do kind of like a [TS]

  poor man's rsync between your laptop in [TS]

  your desktop which is what i was doing [TS]

  toward the end of college you know it [TS]

  was kind of like the it was like the the [TS]

  floppy disk stage of evolution towards [TS]

  the dropbox right that was also kind of [TS]

  the hangover of the the desktop metaphor [TS]

  they did the drunken orgy that was the [TS]

  desktop metaphor like Oh folders there [TS]

  just like folders that go on file [TS]

  cabinets and there's a little trash can [TS]

  and so on and so forth and people would [TS]

  latch onto that idea that's why the [TS]

  Macintosh is easier to use because it [TS]

  has all these analogies to the real [TS]

  world and so people what else is in [TS]

  office like carpeting and it's like it's [TS]

  like this windows we already got those [TS]

  my carpeting you're exactly you know and [TS]

  and that with the recycle recycle bin [TS]

  because it's not like trash because [TS]

  we're trendy than that and i guess like [TS]

  a blotter maybe I mean magic cap one on [TS]

  whole hog that like living rooms and [TS]

  ends and operations like briefcase [TS]

  briefcase i know briefcase and so you [TS]

  got a briefcase and windows and but what [TS]

  about bob bob is after you go nuts and [TS]

  huh [TS]

  and this is the vision divisions you see [TS]

  in your head bob was like the jumping [TS]

  over the shark and doing the fridge of [TS]

  that metaphor is Magic app you should [TS]

  look at Magic camp look like it was very [TS]

  similar in terms of like making rooms of [TS]

  the house it became like maniac mansion [TS]

  it was like you know Sierra adventure [TS]

  where you're going room to room and you [TS]

  have these little anyway briefcase was [TS]

  one of them and Apple itself to the same [TS]

  type of thing where they got distracted [TS]

  for a bit and thought that what made [TS]

  computers easy-to-use was specifically [TS]

  the connections with your world things [TS]

  and not all the other stuff that goes [TS]

  along with it now we have everything [TS]

  flat never would happen it's got fourth [TS]

  was still alive [TS]

  that's true we still don't have a good [TS]

  alternative Save icon so and actually [TS]

  can continue guys a big secret I've been [TS]

  holding this in all these years my [TS]

  computer at the time was not good enough [TS]

  to run it but there was one because I i [TS]

  basically in my pc growing up era I [TS]

  spent a lot more time everybody else did [TS]

  on Windows 3.1 I did not go to 95 i was [TS]

  using 3.1 until nineteen ninety-eight I [TS]

  went straight 98 the there was a brief [TS]

  time where I went to a friend's house [TS]

  and I saw microsoft bobbin on their [TS]

  pentium computer because it wouldn't run [TS]

  mine [TS]

  and I really thought it was the coolest [TS]

  thing I've ever seen that is a bold bold [TS]

  confession [TS]

  yeah I don't really remember it when i [TS]

  was around I was all over windows during [TS]

  this time but I don't really remember [TS]

  Bob very well at all i don't know if i [TS]

  ever saw or maybe I just blocked it from [TS]

  my memory but i don't remember it [TS]

  I mean it was just it was like a it was [TS]

  just like a shell that you would launch [TS]

  from window they didn't replace that the [TS]

  shell it was like a sub it was like a [TS]

  giant app and you would like do things [TS]

  inside of Bob and it was so incredibly [TS]

  slow and any of this was this was during [TS]

  like that the super dark era of of [TS]

  computing where the hard drives were all [TS]

  super slow and grinding constantly [TS]

  because there was not enough for him to [TS]

  do anything and so it was that this was [TS]

  like the dark likely mid to late [TS]

  nineties in computing we're just [TS]

  everything just the entire side of [TS]

  computing for that entire area was hard [TS]

  drive grinding noises you guys both [TS]

  minus the floppy disk grinding error of [TS]

  computers where you could tell what your [TS]

  computer is doing by the particular [TS]

  tones your floppy drive know you say [TS]

  that but I was definitely rocking both [TS]

  the actual floppy floppy what is that [TS]

  five and a quarter i always get this [TS]

  backwards yes i'm a quarter final [TS]

  quarter three-and-a-half so yes Ida Ida [TS]

  five and a quarter floppy drive in 88 [TS]

  that my dad had used years prior and was [TS]

  that I'd set up in my room and I [TS]

  remember I thought I was awesome because [TS]

  it had a 10 meg hard drive in and at the [TS]

  time that was effectively infinite space [TS]

  like you'd you couldn't feel it if you [TS]

  wanted to but yeah I've definitely heard [TS]

  that teaching is constantly on now all [TS]

  these kids these days that with their [TS]

  windows pcs they have the drive letters [TS]

  that start with C and they have no idea [TS]

  why they don't have an A&B drive but [TS]

  they should really be as a weeping over [TS]

  the fact that they still have drive [TS]

  letters [TS]

  there's that was hilarious but you got a [TS]

  grade on a curve with Windows that [TS]

  that's also true i believe this same [TS]

  technique hard drive 88 had a the a [TS]

  drive i believe is the five and a [TS]

  quarter almost got that wrong five and a [TS]

  quarter inch stride and i believe the be [TS]

  drive was a three-and-a-half inch [TS]

  low-density floppy so that was what like [TS]

  750 k or something like that and that [TS]

  was external i should add which was [TS]

  really cool probably scuzzy but anyway [TS]

  the only other thing I want to [TS]

  brings background I to say about the [TS]

  ipad is a lot of people wrote to say hey [TS]

  you idiot the ipad has a camera and yes [TS]

  that's weird why didn't you just use the [TS]

  camera to take a picture of the [TS]

  documents and use any one of these 350 [TS]

  different apps that that people [TS]

  recommended in order to scan and I'm [TS]

  doing mega air quotes here scam the PDF [TS]

  and that is a perfectly valid answer and [TS]

  i have one of those apps on my phone and [TS]

  on my iPad and it does work surprisingly [TS]

  well but why on earth would I do that [TS]

  when I had a full-on probably [TS]

  multi-thousand dollar scanning machine [TS]

  one of those multifunction printers in [TS]

  the office right there ready and waiting [TS]

  the fidelity of that scam was going to [TS]

  be far superior to any yo software [TS]

  flattened picture of a piece of paper [TS]

  plus there's quite a bit that I was [TS]

  scanning and want to spend all that time [TS]

  doing all that instead I spent all that [TS]

  time trying to get it all in the dropbox [TS]

  there that's better [TS]

  yeah that's totally better so nice i [TS]

  just wanted to follow up on that the [TS]

  other thing I wanted to note is we were [TS]

  talking last week about bluetooth [TS]

  headphones and Bluetooth latency and [TS]

  some other miscellaneous things and by [TS]

  accident today i noticed something [TS]

  completely striking and to back up just [TS]

  a half-step you've talked Marco and [TS]

  we've talked and I've talked in the past [TS]

  about how I don't really understand why [TS]

  everyone gets their they're all up in [TS]

  arms about bluetooth latency especially [TS]

  when watching video because i never see [TS]

  this and as well as we discussed last [TS]

  episode i use these like fairly well [TS]

  really cheap in fairly crappy bluetooth [TS]

  headphones that I love don't get me [TS]

  wrong but they're unremarkable in every [TS]

  measurable way and i never get this [TS]

  video agency that everyone else seems to [TS]

  get well today John and tweeted a link [TS]

  to a video with one of the dudes from [TS]

  the wire punk window appears so he [TS]

  tweeted a link geometry to link up that [TS]

  was 10 psi believe you're right Marco [TS]

  talking about it was actually very [TS]

  interesting talking about being stopped [TS]

  in real life by police officer and I was [TS]

  on my work computer and I had click the [TS]

  link in my work computer because we're [TS]

  all in on Google Apps chrome is my [TS]

  default browser and this is the first [TS]

  time that's ever been the case and so I [TS]

  started watching this video and chrome [TS]

  and I was like oh my [TS]

  goodness this latency is ridiculous it's [TS]

  terrible [TS]

  we decided yep that's never ever [TS]

  happened to me before ever [TS]

  so I copy the link dropped in safari [TS]

  perfect no problems whatsoever [TS]

  this is a youtube video i don't know [TS]

  what it is but miles em wrote in when I [TS]

  tweet tweet about this and said so far [TS]

  use the system API to play video but [TS]

  chrome reimplement everything itself [TS]

  down to the media decoders I have no [TS]

  idea if that's true or not but i can [TS]

  tell you that anecdotally based on one [TS]

  video I watched during the day today [TS]

  it certainly seemed like that very well [TS]

  may be the case and I was stunned by the [TS]

  fact that it happened be how bad it was [TS]

  and so I wonder if all these people that [TS]

  are whining and moaning about this [TS]

  bluetooth latency are just chrome users [TS]

  and because of that they they see this [TS]

  terrible agency so they're all thinking [TS]

  man i'm crazy how could I not see this [TS]

  as at the same time thinking man they [TS]

  are crazy [TS]

  why are they seeing this and it turns [TS]

  out it's just another reason why you [TS]

  shouldn't be using chrome turns out [TS]

  everyone is crazy [TS]

  no i mean so that their that you're [TS]

  exactly right that basically that did [TS]

  that there is Bluetooth latency on any [TS]

  Bluetooth device there is latency not [TS]

  about his airplane airplane is fixed at [TS]

  two seconds regardless and that seems [TS]

  like forever when trying something [TS]

  happen [TS]

  bluetooth is way shorter than that can [TS]

  be used in substantially less than a [TS]

  second but there is still noticeable [TS]

  agency and humans can take latency in [TS]

  video where the audio isn't synched up [TS]

  properly to like what like watching [TS]

  people's mouths move and they talk we [TS]

  can detect very very small isolated and [TS]

  just looks wrong to us so it has to be [TS]

  perfectly when you're watching people [TS]

  speak there can't be any any weird [TS]

  latency between the audio/video Apple [TS]

  knows this so they're in their system [TS]

  frameworks for iOS and OS 10 most [TS]

  bluetooth headphones they they have some [TS]

  way I don't know the details of how [TS]

  should they have some way of [TS]

  establishing with the headset what the [TS]

  latency is and then compensating for it [TS]

  the downside of this first of all you [TS]

  just found one which is that it only [TS]

  works in things that use the AV [TS]

  frameworks no downside is that not every [TS]

  headphone supports this and so like I've [TS]

  tested probably five or six sensible [TS]

  have fun now and only I think two of [TS]

  them actually properly didn't have any [TS]

  latency and the the rest all had on his [TS]

  rival agency even when you [TS]

  in the system video player even on ios4 [TS]

  you think that would be most commonly [TS]

  tested and the other problem is games [TS]

  you know video can account for this [TS]

  game's almost always can't and don't and [TS]

  so it works fine if you are using your [TS]

  headphones to watch a video in the [TS]

  built-in system API player in something [TS]

  that works fine that's probably all [TS]

  you've ever done right [TS]

  yeah I mean I think so I I can't imagine [TS]

  a time other than when i was in chrome [TS]

  that I wasn't using just the system [TS]

  frameworks right but if it's especially [TS]

  problem if you're trying to play games [TS]

  with bluetooth headphones you base it's [TS]

  basically impossible you basically can't [TS]

  unless you are just not listening to the [TS]

  game audio and listen to music or [TS]

  something that just always crazy how [TS]

  know John any thoughts on this [TS]

  I just think that I hope that in the [TS]

  future they will keep improving these [TS]

  wireless audio api is to eliminate these [TS]

  problems because it's kind of a shame [TS]

  that it requires the deep integration of [TS]

  the system API is with all this [TS]

  compensation getting everything get it [TS]

  crunk should be able to do it correctly [TS]

  in other words it shouldn't be such a [TS]

  problem so I by I don't know what the [TS]

  what the limitations are that are [TS]

  requiring this but I no bluetooth [TS]

  continues to evolve and I think it needs [TS]

  to continue to evolve because it's [TS]

  obviously not quite good enough yet [TS]

  well and you know there's there's to [TS]

  some degree there's always going to be [TS]

  some latency inherent in a digital [TS]

  signal being transmitted being accepted [TS]

  over wireless network being decoded from [TS]

  digital to analog in certain no chunks [TS]

  of blocks and as always you know with [TS]

  with audio latency you're always having [TS]

  this this trade-off if you make the [TS]

  latency really short [TS]

  that means you have really short buffers [TS]

  on all the sides which means it becomes [TS]

  extremely sensitive to cutting out with [TS]

  any kind of reception drop or or flaky [TS]

  signal or anything so if you have very [TS]

  very low latency it is very fragile or [TS]

  if you is if you increase the latency [TS]

  then you have more tolerance for [TS]

  weirdness in the signal you can like [TS]

  back off a little bit and burst the data [TS]

  that you missed before the latency has [TS]

  caught up just like the old auntie skip [TS]

  things and investment you have you ever [TS]

  had with the hoods non same thing [TS]

  there's all these trade-offs and it just [TS]

  might not be worth it if most people are [TS]

  fine most of the time or if the or you [TS]

  know if I [TS]

  which often happens often happens in the [TS]

  case with technological progress if the [TS]

  if the new way of doing things [TS]

  does have shortcomings and downsides [TS]

  that people are just ok with because the [TS]

  upside make it worth it [TS]

  like everyone might just decide you know [TS]

  what I'm fine with just not having [TS]

  synced up audio when playing games while [TS]

  wearing headphones like people might [TS]

  just decide that because it's worth it [TS]

  to have all the other benefits of [TS]

  wireless headphones so I would [TS]

  necessarily consider this problem [TS]

  something that will be solved and and [TS]

  we'll be starting soon you know don't [TS]

  worry because apples hard real-time [TS]

  operating systems are working on for the [TS]

  car will solve all these problems [TS]

  because then you won't have any [TS]

  underflow problems on your buffers [TS]

  because you've got time slice guarantees [TS]

  and on the that'll solve all these [TS]

  problems [TS]

  I mean people always talk about I i I'm [TS]

  saying this is a joke by the way but [TS]

  people do talk a lot about the [TS]

  theoretical you know the the real time [TS]

  requirements of any sort of software [TS]

  that Apple might be doing in the car and [TS]

  I redheads have a hard time believing [TS]

  that any software part of the car system [TS]

  like it in other words i imagine that [TS]

  Apple's going to do the part of the car [TS]

  that you would you know but the software [TS]

  that you see on the screen in the car [TS]

  that you interact with but I always [TS]

  imagined that the internal things that [TS]

  deal with like engine control computers [TS]

  will have absolutely no lineage or [TS]

  connection to any existing Apple [TS]

  software code base like that it'll just [TS]

  be an embedded system that it won't be [TS]

  related to iOS that none of that stuff [TS]

  will come to iOS and other stuff from [TS]

  iOS go to it there will be an iOS like [TS]

  thing for front-end doesn't mean they [TS]

  ever make are you know the thing that [TS]

  runs all the dashboard and a lot of [TS]

  stuff but the part that runs the engine [TS]

  computer and any other stuff I can't [TS]

  imagine that having any connection with [TS]

  the existing basically with Darwin with [TS]

  existing a code basement one and we've [TS]

  we've heard very early and very you know [TS]

  unreliable but still rumblings that [TS]

  indicated that's exactly what they're [TS]

  doing that that they are working on a [TS]

  new kernel and a new OS at that might [TS]

  possibly use swift for everything [TS]

  because it's you know that's kind of one [TS]

  of the reasons why Swift is so safe and [TS]

  everything like that but that could [TS]

  still be for the dashboard control like [TS]

  I'm saying for you know for the other [TS]

  preferred the things that have to be [TS]

  real time oh yeah it because they don't [TS]

  you know the the Darwin colonel is not a [TS]

  real [TS]

  Colonel where you can guarantee i mean [TS]

  they know they have the stuff for trying [TS]

  to guarantee time slices for audio and [TS]

  video or whatever but it's not like hard [TS]

  real-time like things you put on like [TS]

  spacecraft to go to Mars where this [TS]

  absolutely positively has to happen it's [TS]

  just it's very tightly constrained you [TS]

  know embedded operating system [TS]

  environment was that one really popular [TS]

  one when river systems or something I [TS]

  don't know the ones on all the [TS]

  spacecraft and satellites and other [TS]

  stuff like that that is a different [TS]

  problem domain and I see no reason that [TS]

  apple would need to make a single OS [TS]

  that spans because you never see the [TS]

  real-time operating system it just runs [TS]

  the machinery under the covers and [TS]

  apples free to make a swift from top to [TS]

  bottom cool UI thing for all the you [TS]

  know climate-controlled dashboard [TS]

  applications audio system all that other [TS]

  stuff which could still also be entirely [TS]

  new code base but I still feel like it [TS]

  that doesn't even need to be real time [TS]

  because it just controls the sort of an [TS]

  essential functions if its self-driving [TS]

  then I don't really know what the hell's [TS]

  going on our first sponsor this week is [TS]

  backblaze go to backblaze dot-com / ATP [TS]

  for the best online backup I've ever [TS]

  seen [TS]

  I've been back with a back plz customer [TS]

  for I don't know three four years now [TS]

  it's been awhile since this was before [TS]

  the sponsored our shows and because I [TS]

  just I did the research i tried a few [TS]

  online backup services out there and [TS]

  back plays with my favorite by far [TS]

  simple as that so they have over a [TS]

  hundred and fifty petabytes of data [TS]

  backed up this isn't all for me although [TS]

  a lot of it is but not all hundred [TS]

  petabytes of our mind they had you know [TS]

  anybody can do this they have over 10 [TS]

  billion files that have been restored to [TS]

  their customers so like they've backed [TS]

  up way more than 10 million files [TS]

  they've restored 10 million files for [TS]

  their customers all this data that they [TS]

  keep up in their cloud is not in your [TS]

  office not in your home so that any kind [TS]

  of environmental problem that affects [TS]

  all the computers in your office or all [TS]

  the computers in your home things like [TS]

  you know electrical problems fires [TS]

  floods theft if you are back plays [TS]

  customer you know that your data is [TS]

  still there is back place still has your [TS]

  data and you can get it back it's it's a [TS]

  level of peace of mind [TS]

  backblaze saves your butt in that case [TS]

  it really does it is great it is founded [TS]

  by X Apple engineers they respect the [TS]

  mac plus they work on windows to as far [TS]

  as i know i don't ride but I'm sure yet [TS]

  says different [TS]

  on your mac and pc so they have a [TS]

  windows up to it if you run that way you [TS]

  can put on your c drive but now you're a [TS]

  or b drives you don't have those anymore [TS]

  a bad place is really easy no add-ons no [TS]

  gimmicks no additional charges five [TS]

  bucks per month for unlimited space on [TS]

  throttled speeds everything you need [TS]

  no add-ons no gimmicks five bucks a [TS]

  month per computer at backblaze [TS]

  backblaze calm / ATP you need online [TS]

  backup and if you're going to get online [TS]

  backup this is the one I recommend [TS]

  thanks a lot of bad place for sponsoring [TS]

  our show so back places better the news [TS]

  lately and not just because they sponsor [TS]

  this awesome program but because they [TS]

  had a running with Adobe yes this is we [TS]

  all have we all had a run-in with Adobe [TS]

  sometimes that happens [TS]

  whoops so I do not have creative cloud [TS]

  so just one of you want to fill fill me [TS]

  and fill everyone in on what happened i [TS]

  just didn't happen to me either [TS]

  thankfully but i do have well here's the [TS]

  thing i have Photoshop cs6 which is the [TS]

  the last pre creative crowd cloud [TS]

  version but for reasons all I know why [TS]

  I'm saying why does this always systems [TS]

  anyway even though i have cs6 i still [TS]

  have the creative cloud icon in the menu [TS]

  bar because i think i downloaded like a [TS]

  trial illustrator I might have paid for [TS]

  illustrator for a month like illustrator [TS]

  CC like the first version anyway once [TS]

  again because on your system has this [TS]

  creative cloud menu thing which like [TS]

  tries to update your applications for [TS]

  you and do other crap like that it's the [TS]

  worst [TS]

  yeah and I'm it launches on login and [TS]

  you try to get rid of it and comes back [TS]

  he just wanna quit like Steam yeah but [TS]

  steam does it through the system through [TS]

  the system login items and you turn off [TS]

  it stays off Creative Cloud just keeps [TS]

  coming back like an undead zombie anyway [TS]

  adobe has a history of having let's say [TS]

  challenges related to software [TS]

  installation and management of [TS]

  installations on the mac there I i have [TS]

  at various times search for solutions to [TS]

  seemingly intractable adobe application [TS]

  installation problems infants and [TS]

  instructions on adobe's own website not [TS]

  in the forums like literal officially [TS]

  official adobe instructions that contain [TS]

  terrifying like sets of steps that you [TS]

  have to follow to get yourself out of a [TS]

  situation in which you're legitimately [TS]

  purchase adobe application won't update [TS]

  or something they have [TS]

  running commands from the shell prompt [TS]

  you know sudo RM blah blah it's like it [TS]

  seriously this is anyway they have [TS]

  serious challenges and this is another [TS]

  one of their challenges [TS]

  apparently they release some software [TS]

  and this is all kind of experimental [TS]

  determined by back place and you'll [TS]

  understand my bike place is involved at [TS]

  all this in a moment [TS]

  it's some piece of software that would [TS]

  effectively list the folders the [TS]

  directories at the top level of your [TS]

  volume and sort them i'm assuming a [TS]

  schematically as in like capital letters [TS]

  first or whatever but any rate periods [TS]

  and spaces and stuff first pick the [TS]

  first one and delete its contents and it [TS]

  was hoping that first one would be like [TS]

  a dot adobe something but depending on [TS]

  whether you had a previous installation [TS]

  it could be something other than dot [TS]

  adobe or space adobe over the hall was [TS]

  it could in fact be something called dot [TS]

  bz ball which is a back plays hidden [TS]

  directory where it stores a bunch of [TS]

  crap that has to do with the operation [TS]

  of back place so people were messing [TS]

  with this adobe creative cloud update [TS]

  which i'm sure they were all prompted to [TS]

  install by the little menu item that [TS]

  always runs the people systems and they [TS]

  would install it and that installer [TS]

  would delete the contents of back blazes [TS]

  little directory where it stores [TS]

  information about your backups and [TS]

  that's pretty antisocial behavior when [TS]

  an application not made by you goes and [TS]

  deletes all your crap out from under it [TS]

  now to black places credit they figured [TS]

  out this problem pretty quickly they [TS]

  posted a thing on the side that explains [TS]

  how to solve the situation they reported [TS]

  to adobe and then to adobe's credit will [TS]

  be fixed it and pull the updated all the [TS]

  stuff and we'll link to a blog post in [TS]

  the show notes from backways explaining [TS]

  the situation and again we don't have [TS]

  the these particular details back please [TS]

  just has like experimental experimental [TS]

  a determined this that and the other [TS]

  thing what people are doing in the [TS]

  meantime before these updates was they [TS]

  would make a bunch of a series of [TS]

  sacrificial folders at the top level of [TS]

  their directory like called AAA to make [TS]

  the dough hook the adobe thing nuke that [TS]

  one and not the bz vol.1 but as back [TS]

  place points out even if you have this [TS]

  thing happened to you at no time where [TS]

  your actual backplate about backups in [TS]

  jeopardy because the backups are all [TS]

  server-side back plays this was merely [TS]

  setting back the client-side [TS]

  installation [TS]

  view our backup thing by deleting all [TS]

  the information needs to keep track of [TS]

  stuff so that players will automatically [TS]

  created and I'm assuming you have to [TS]

  grind your desk for a while to figure [TS]

  out what the hell's would recreate that [TS]

  directory but it's good to know that [TS]

  despite another application coming and [TS]

  recursively delete the contents of one [TS]

  of its directories your actual backups [TS]

  mean like the data that is starting back [TS]

  place the server where are we safe [TS]

  during this time we give Apple hard time [TS]

  for for software quality issues that we [TS]

  think they have but we a couple of [TS]

  people right in to say why don't you [TS]

  complain about Adobe just as much and [TS]

  and the truth is adobe software is [TS]

  typically far worse than apple software [TS]

  especially the non-core thing so you [TS]

  think about like photoshop illustrator [TS]

  these like the core adobe act like their [TS]

  core apps as as much as they can be [TS]

  weird and flaky as much as people can [TS]

  love and hate them so much at the same [TS]

  time they don't usually have stability [TS]

  issues or data loss issues they have [TS]

  many other issues but those are not [TS]

  usually among them so it's not like you [TS]

  like that the main core apps tend to [TS]

  work decently well most of the time [TS]

  although I can anyone Apple but that the [TS]

  problem adobe has is all the other like [TS]

  supporting crap around them also [TS]

  anything related to acrobat but you know [TS]

  all that all supporting crap around them [TS]

  at the installers the the cloud services [TS]

  that they use like the behance plugins [TS]

  and all this all this crazy stuff those [TS]

  things tend to work very poorly and be [TS]

  very inconsistent and the reason why we [TS]

  don't usually criticized adobe on this [TS]

  show is simply because adobe has been [TS]

  making mediocre software for so long [TS]

  that we have no expectations of quality [TS]

  from Adobe as sad as that is and then I [TS]

  say this as a longtime adobe customer [TS]

  and user of multiple products by them [TS]

  but the fact is that adobe just has a [TS]

  really really bad reputation for this [TS]

  stuff and has four years so yeah we just [TS]

  don't expect much from them and and when [TS]

  things like this happen [TS]

  it's it's barely even worth mentioning [TS]

  because like it just it happened like [TS]

  crap with Adobe happens all the time [TS]

  usually not this bad but like it's just [TS]

  you know it's just one more day using [TS]

  adobe stuff for the software doing weird [TS]

  stuff and not quite installing right or [TS]

  creative cloud is doing weird things in [TS]

  the menu bar that's just typical [TS]

  behavior and as big as adobe is [TS]

  obviously like most people use adobe [TS]

  software like especially now [TS]

  you know os10 PDF rendering built-in [TS]

  everything people have no longer have a [TS]

  reason download acrobat just look at [TS]

  pdfs if you're not a designer or not [TS]

  using one of you know you don't use it [TS]

  adobe product so much where is everybody [TS]

  is using you know the operating system [TS]

  and a lot of the built-in apps that ship [TS]

  with Apple think it was just a much [TS]

  bigger surface area for people to [TS]

  encounter problems with the with apple [TS]

  stuff that the reason I want to talk [TS]

  about this aside from the backways angle [TS]

  and it's just coincidence we have that [TS]

  back place a sponsoring this episode is [TS]

  the sandboxing angle because a lot of [TS]

  discussion i saw about this issue was [TS]

  see this is why Apple wants mac [TS]

  applications to be sandbox and sent [TS]

  quicksand boxing refresher sandboxing is [TS]

  basically a way to limit the ability of [TS]

  applications to do things so typical [TS]

  general-purpose PC or Mac when you're [TS]

  running an application that application [TS]

  can do anything that you could do as as [TS]

  a user as and you could delete all the [TS]

  files in your home directory and so can [TS]

  any program that you run you could you [TS]

  know rename things remove things like [TS]

  just you know sit transmit data over the [TS]

  network pull data down from somewhere [TS]

  anything basically you could do as a [TS]

  user or a program that you wrote any [TS]

  program that you run can do and what [TS]

  sandboxing does is says that each [TS]

  individual application has to declare [TS]

  what kinds of things it wants to do so [TS]

  application might say I need to access [TS]

  the network or maybe I need to access [TS]

  now we can just go to certain sites i [TS]

  need accurate access the camera or the [TS]

  microphone i need access to the file [TS]

  system i need access to just these two [TS]

  folders in the file system and you know [TS]

  like that and you can have these sort of [TS]

  permissions all up to level of like hey [TS]

  I need access to the complete file [TS]

  system and historically apple has been [TS]

  trying to slowly close that door to say [TS]

  you know what [TS]

  no application should really have access [TS]

  to the entire file system and if you do [TS]

  there should be a good reason and that's [TS]

  the whole negotiation with the mac app [TS]

  store in San boxing mac applications to [TS]

  try to this negotiation backwards be an [TS]

  apple and the applications of what they [TS]

  call them titles what entitlements is [TS]

  your application actually need to do its [TS]

  job versus which ones you just want to [TS]

  have so why is your application they use [TS]

  for email acts [TS]

  using the camera I and maybe have a good [TS]

  reason at all if you don't have an [TS]

  avatar [TS]

  we will take a picture of you and then [TS]

  use that as your after okay well that's [TS]

  okay reason why is your email [TS]

  application to access the entire file [TS]

  system well we don't really know where [TS]

  we're going to add file so we just want [TS]

  access to the whole file system and now [TS]

  sorry we really want you to pick where [TS]

  you're gonna put the files you can put a [TS]

  dialog box up and the user can pick when [TS]

  you get permission for that directory of [TS]

  that directory tree but you don't have [TS]

  access everywhere and as we just [TS]

  discussed with adobe stuff as you might [TS]

  imagine [TS]

  adobe is not in the mac app store adobe [TS]

  sells its own software has its own [TS]

  subscription service to create a cloud [TS]

  thing where you can sort of rent your [TS]

  software and that will give you updates [TS]

  for a certain amount of time and they're [TS]

  not a nightcap story not just because [TS]

  they don't want to share three percent [TS]

  of the money battle but also because no [TS]

  other applications would function is [TS]

  sandboxed and so that that's why [TS]

  sandboxing is related to this because it [TS]

  if their application with sandbox surely [TS]

  there updater wouldn't have the [TS]

  entitlement that allows it gives it [TS]

  access to the entire file system that [TS]

  the updater would instead like maybe [TS]

  prompt you to find your application or [TS]

  something and then the user would give [TS]

  information update [TS]

  alrighty offers a Mac App Store updates [TS]

  work entirely different anyway because [TS]

  it would just be able to update the [TS]

  individual apps and their bundles but [TS]

  the real issue is alright so sandboxing [TS]

  would have saved this but it's not [TS]

  sandboxed so what is sandboxing actually [TS]

  buying us because if I if you can have [TS]

  non sandbox non Mac App Store [TS]

  applications does not defeat the purpose [TS]

  of sandboxing in other words you can't [TS]

  get everybody to be sandbox it doesn't [TS]

  matter how great sandboxing us but it [TS]

  just takes one sandbox application to [TS]

  ruin your day [TS]

  so what do you guys think about the [TS]

  sandboxing yay or nay angle on this [TS]

  whole disaster [TS]

  I think it's a reasonable angle but part [TS]

  of the reason that the mac is so great [TS]

  and part of the reason I've been talking [TS]

  the last couple of episodes about things [TS]

  that bother me about iOS is that you can [TS]

  take things into your own hands in a way [TS]

  that you can't with iOS and that's very [TS]

  freeing and so I wouldn't I would be [TS]

  very upset if all software had to go [TS]

  through the mac app store or somehow it [TS]

  in another way [TS]

  all software with sandbox [TS]

  I don't see that as feasible I do think [TS]

  though that software developers should [TS]

  be better systems of the ecosystem and [TS]

  in 20 allow their software to be [TS]

  sandboxed wherever possible now I'm not [TS]

  clear can use sand box without being in [TS]

  the app store so i could Creative Cloud [TS]

  still be a third-party third and a third [TS]

  party am an outside of the appstore [TS]

  thing and also be sandbox get definitely [TS]

  you can do that okay and some people do [TS]

  that was one of the discussions like wha [TS]

  why would anyone voluntarily subject [TS]

  their application to the sandbox if [TS]

  you're not on the mac app store said [TS]

  you're selling an application directly [TS]

  why would you go through the trouble of [TS]

  sandboxing and part of the reason i was [TS]

  to protect yourself from your own bug [TS]

  say you have some sort of silly bug or [TS]

  not so silly bugger Isis this is an [TS]

  itunes spot way back in the day this is [TS]

  a very common bug for for the mindset of [TS]

  the people that tend to write things [TS]

  like installers and uninstallers this [TS]

  mindset is the assumption that no Mac [TS]

  user know really old-school mac user [TS]

  ever make but that basically everyone [TS]

  else in the entire computing universe [TS]

  except old-school mac user makes an [TS]

  assumption is for example file names do [TS]

  not contain spaces because who would put [TS]

  a space in their file name that's [TS]

  madness you can have spaces in filenames [TS]

  that the itunes bug was if you had a [TS]

  space in your file name there was like a [TS]

  shell script that was just blindly [TS]

  taking a string building a path that [TS]

  string and then running a command on it [TS]

  without quoting the string because hey [TS]

  what if there's a quote in the string [TS]

  who would put a quote in their file [TS]

  names mac users would that's right [TS]

  okay well these are you single quotes [TS]

  who would put a single quote in their [TS]

  file names mac users that suit you know [TS]

  Mac users were trained for a [TS]

  decade-and-a-half that the file name is [TS]

  the users domain you can type whatever [TS]

  the hell you want their will accept what [TS]

  is it a colon or comics was the one you [TS]

  can use you can get a colon into you can [TS]

  get something that that it appears as a [TS]

  colon okay yeah yeah it's colon slash [TS]

  there there are limitations so basically [TS]

  if i can type it like it you are [TS]

  prevented from typing those things [TS]

  essentially or you prevented from really [TS]

  getting those into the file name but the [TS]

  bottom line is you would never think [TS]

  that because i put a space in my file [TS]

  name this would mean like the items when [TS]

  I think what if you had a volume called [TS]

  fubar and you had I know you had a [TS]

  volume called foo and then you had a pop [TS]

  Pat volume called fubar the thing would [TS]

  try to delete fubar [TS]

  but after the first space the you know [TS]

  the RM command would say oh you want me [TS]

  to delete volumes food ok I'll go that [TS]

  i'll do the loot that ok you also want [TS]

  me to leave borrow no no such file and [TS]

  you were sad because it just nuclear [TS]

  entire directory anyway I'm dealing with [TS]

  pads as strings and dealing with path [TS]

  strings in a sloppy way is an epidemic [TS]

  in the computing world so that it's very [TS]

  it's actually very difficult to get that [TS]

  part of the the system right and so [TS]

  you'd sandbox yourself to say what if I [TS]

  make one of those mistakes what if I'm [TS]

  deep in objective-c code and I'm you [TS]

  know building you know at any time [TS]

  you're shelling out or doing something [TS]

  that you think I've built a string and [TS]

  this is some NS string that has a file [TS]

  path and I'm and then instead of feeding [TS]

  it to an objective-c framework that [TS]

  would presumably do the right thing [TS]

  instead you say i'm just going to run [TS]

  this external command even if it's like [TS]

  I'm just gonna run as external command [TS]

  converts mark down into HTML and I'll [TS]

  just feed this path and everything will [TS]

  be fine i guess you're probably not [TS]

  going to nuclear world will probably [TS]

  just break when someone puts the space [TS]

  or you know an exclamation point or a [TS]

  single quotes or double quotes depending [TS]

  on how silly you're being about going to [TS]

  the shelter to these type of things but [TS]

  i can tell you someone who writes in the [TS]

  language is actually very close to shell [TS]

  script thing even in languages like that [TS]

  where you know this is not the whole [TS]

  purpose of languages that make it easy [TS]

  to run shell commands right to run [TS]

  things that you would type of the [TS]

  terminal don't those languages have [TS]

  facilities for doing all this even in [TS]

  those languages people just ignore the [TS]

  facilities that allow you to essentially [TS]

  pass a list so it'll be due pass [TS]

  directly to the exact CVP function or [TS]

  whatever where you bypass the shell [TS]

  entirely you know what the components of [TS]

  the command are you know this is the [TS]

  command you know this is the path you [TS]

  know this is the whatever never go [TS]

  through the shell and let it try to [TS]

  figure out where the boundaries are [TS]

  because you will just little you be sad [TS]

  and it will end in tears [TS]

  so if you can sandbox your application [TS]

  say i'm only gonna ever edit my [TS]

  application will only ever modify files [TS]

  in these two directories +1 that the [TS]

  user picks themselves with the open side [TS]

  of dialog box then when you have this [TS]

  bug your application what function [TS]

  directly but you will not accidentally [TS]

  recursively delete their home directory [TS]

  their volume their entire documents [TS]

  folder or whatever else so yeah Marco [TS]

  would sandboxes on application and i [TS]

  think i would too even though probably [TS]

  be a giant pain because I think there's [TS]

  a lot of [TS]

  don't that just don't exist anymore [TS]

  because they think nobody in the mac app [TS]

  store should have therefore people on [TS]

  the outside shouldn't either [TS]

  I mean that's the main problem with [TS]

  sandboxing is is really not the concept [TS]

  it there's two main problems is on the [TS]

  mac number one is it wasn't always there [TS]

  so we have this entire ecosystem of [TS]

  softens and built up over decades that [TS]

  it was originally built without the [TS]

  concept of sandboxing and then now it [TS]

  has to be bolted on and for a lot of [TS]

  apps that is either impossible or very [TS]

  difficult and then secondly that the [TS]

  other problem is that Apple just hasn't [TS]

  really been a very good steward of [TS]

  taking sandboxing and moving it forward [TS]

  and adding entitlements for things that [TS]

  really are necessary in the real world [TS]

  and as a result the the kind of policy [TS]

  by action at least have been doing so [TS]

  far is well if you don't want to fit [TS]

  into what we want for the mac app store [TS]

  we don't want you there at all like we [TS]

  don't even want you to use any of this [TS]

  technology and and I'm sure that's not [TS]

  what like Craig federighi wants to be [TS]

  the case but that's what's happening so [TS]

  far so hopefully they remember that the [TS]

  mac exists just long enough to update [TS]

  sandboxing and and give it to make it [TS]

  more useful because I as both the [TS]

  developer and a user i'm a developer at [TS]

  least not yet but but I as a user I [TS]

  would love for more of my apps to be [TS]

  sandboxed if Apple wants to advance this [TS]

  this the system and this practice of [TS]

  being of sandbox after I think they [TS]

  should they to make more apps able to be [TS]

  sandbox in a reasonable way and so I I [TS]

  hope there's enough people at Apple who [TS]

  agree with that that gets done at some [TS]

  point but you as a developer as you know [TS]

  not only for protecting you know all of [TS]

  your data from my accidental bugs and [TS]

  stuff to go into it i would if i if i [TS]

  was making it looks sort of making mac [TS]

  version overcast [TS]

  I'm not but suppose I was please don't [TS]

  get excited about insurance rkc i know i [TS]

  should I i have a guy i had like forever [TS]

  ago I'd like a branch that I could [TS]

  compile like the data layer to Mac but [TS]

  not the not a UI or anything that's [TS]

  that's the kind of app doesn't really [TS]

  need deep system access to really [TS]

  anything i mean i would need access to [TS]

  play audio and that's a and download [TS]

  stuff from the network like that's [TS]

  that's about it like so i would totally [TS]

  accept sandboxing I wouldn't want the [TS]

  responsibility of messing with your [TS]

  system or messing with other apps [TS]

  accidentally or having my at the [TS]

  well to be hacked and have some kind of [TS]

  remote injection if you a webpage you [TS]

  know weird stuff like that like I know [TS]

  we're beyond most of that was like web [TS]

  stuff these days but still you know it [TS]

  would be nice to just like eliminate [TS]

  sources of budget you to me it's like as [TS]

  a developer would i opted into memory [TS]

  protection of course i would like it's [TS]

  one of those things where if what you're [TS]

  doing can fit within those restrictions [TS]

  you should adopt them just because it [TS]

  will help it will help you not only make [TS]

  better software but ensure more secure [TS]

  software as as time goes on as people to [TS]

  try to hack it or as you make mistakes [TS]

  so of course I would opt into that and [TS]

  iOS i'm very glad it's there because [TS]

  there's no these whole classes of things [TS]

  where like if I gotta support thing that [TS]

  says oh whenever i launched overcast [TS]

  facebook crashes that's not my problem i [TS]

  can't do anything about that you know [TS]

  and in a way that's kind of frustrating [TS]

  community have to tell people sorry i [TS]

  can't really help but also i can say [TS]

  well I sorry it's out of my control and [TS]

  it's probably everything I'm doing you [TS]

  know so there are lots of advantages to [TS]

  sandboxing for developers and users as [TS]

  long as the system either indicates of [TS]

  iOS that's always been there or in the [TS]

  case of the mac hopefully it gets better [TS]

  enough that people more more apps can [TS]

  adopt it so that leaves me the question [TS]

  like the this whole sandboxing an Adobe [TS]

  bug thing of like apples responsibility [TS]

  as a platform or not responsibility [TS]

  apples apples goals as the platform [TS]

  owner is too i think it should be to try [TS]

  to get as many people into the sandbox [TS]

  on the mac as possible and they've been [TS]

  trying to do that like they did the [TS]

  important first step was they themselves [TS]

  sandbox a ton of the background demons [TS]

  that were on your mac so they like the [TS]

  thing that does like name lookups and [TS]

  stuff can't doesn't have complete access [TS]

  to the file system just to make them [TS]

  less of a vector for exploitation in [TS]

  terms of malware can do a buffer [TS]

  overflow and like the name lookup system [TS]

  it does it can't write an arbitrary file [TS]

  to anywhere in the file system because [TS]

  that thing is still a sandbox a sandbox [TS]

  a lot of their own things sandbox a lot [TS]

  of the OS they tried to send back some [TS]

  of their applications and of course they [TS]

  eventually restricted the mac app store [TS]

  to it which heard a lot of applications [TS]

  but at this point that the the other [TS]

  area of trying to get more things in [TS]

  sandboxes saying are you an important [TS]

  pop [TS]

  other application that a lot of people [TS]

  use and you're not using a sandbox and [TS]

  they're like that should be the focus of [TS]

  all their efforts out why are you not [TS]

  using the sandbox what can we do to help [TS]

  you get in the sandbox yes even for [TS]

  companies like Adobe that will probably [TS]

  never be in the mac app store for [TS]

  financial reasons in terms of profit [TS]

  sharing with Apple they should still be [TS]

  saying adobe we understand you're never [TS]

  gonna have a 30-percent we understand [TS]

  you have your own subscription service [TS]

  your own weird thing going on there [TS]

  that's fine but we would still like all [TS]

  of your applications including your [TS]

  installers and everything to be in the [TS]

  sandbox [TS]

  what do we have to do to get you into [TS]

  the sandbox today like car dealership [TS]

  that you know they need to be out there [TS]

  trying to get butts in the seats just [TS]

  mixing my analogies now on the sandbox [TS]

  and if that means making variants of the [TS]

  sandbox that are entirely different than [TS]

  whatever be a lot of the mac app store [TS]

  that would still be a benefit to both [TS]

  Apple and users right so that you know [TS]

  trying to be ideologically pure and say [TS]

  if you can't fit within the sandbox as [TS]

  we define it just fine it like ideally [TS]

  for these isolated applications like [TS]

  they are in iOS that tough luck you [TS]

  can't use it at all [TS]

  you know or if we say you know don't we [TS]

  could be maybe apples telling you know [TS]

  but you could be the sandbox now but [TS]

  you're not nobody's like yeah we see [TS]

  kind of what the upside might be for you [TS]

  apple and for users but it just seems [TS]

  like a lot of work and even there's no [TS]

  real technical limitations we could do [TS]

  it today we don't want to and that's [TS]

  kind of you know Apple what Apple's job [TS]

  is to try to convince adobe to [TS]

  essentially spend money time and effort [TS]

  to get into the sandbox and so if I was [TS]

  apple i would say i would have had these [TS]

  efforts ongoing and be when this bug it [TS]

  would be like trying to nicely say to [TS]

  Adobe you know depending on the current [TS]

  situation is I don't know it could be [TS]

  that it will be can't get in the sandbox [TS]

  right now at all but if they can be and [TS]

  they just refuse to because it takes too [TS]

  much effort I will be gently pressing [TS]

  them to say see if you would if you [TS]

  would sandbox your applications you [TS]

  could avoid this bug that was [TS]

  embarrassing for you and bad for our [TS]

  users [TS]

  what can we do to help can we send [TS]

  engineers out there can we help you like [TS]

  and not everyone gets this treatment but [TS]

  it will be even though a lot of people [TS]

  don't use it enough people use it and [TS]

  apple still thinks creative [TS]

  professionals an important market for [TS]

  them you know anyway that's my hope for [TS]

  the future for sandboxing that it [TS]

  actually becomes more broadly useful [TS]

  because it's unrealistic like Casey [TS]

  pointed out to you know and [TS]

  counterproductive to try to get every [TS]

  single application to the marrow sandbox [TS]

  has defined the mac app store but it is [TS]

  good for everybody involved in the [TS]

  sandbox can expand and get more [TS]

  participants in it it's just as I become [TS]

  an older and older developer in person [TS]

  I feel like I've learned more and more [TS]

  usually the hard way to protect against [TS]

  myself and this is the same thing you [TS]

  guys are saying earlier and so as you [TS]

  get older you you go even further than [TS]

  you think necessary to prevent yourself [TS]

  from being an idiot [TS]

  at least that's the way I am and i just [TS]

  it seems the responsible thing to do app [TS]

  store or not to sandbox your app if at [TS]

  all possible and yes sometimes it's a [TS]

  friggin nightmare i am quite sure but [TS]

  it's the responsible thing to do and in [TS]

  its really unfortunate that adobe didn't [TS]

  and hasn't done that yet our second spot [TS]

  to this week is a responsible company [TS]

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  live human being is ready to help they [TS]

  just pick up the phone there's no [TS]

  weights no holds and no transfers now in [TS]

  less than five minutes [TS]

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  running and hover all you gotta do is [TS]

  search for a few keywords and they will [TS]

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  me there are some crazy ones out there [TS]

  these days if you register domain name [TS]

  anywhere else you probably didn't enjoy [TS]

  the experience very much because domain [TS]

  name registration is notorious for being [TS]

  just very confusing on these very hard [TS]

  to use sites often times you feel kind [TS]

  of cheated her or railroaded into [TS]

  getting about to add ons that you didn't [TS]

  really necessarily need or you don't [TS]

  really fully understand [TS]

  however is not like that at all however [TS]

  respect you get respect the user they [TS]

  have a nice clean design everything is [TS]

  fast and responsive on their site and [TS]

  buying things could not be easier they [TS]

  don't try to upsell you with crazy stuff [TS]

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  even include a bunch of stuff for free [TS]

  like who is privacy [TS]

  however also has email solutions twenty [TS]

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  check it out today hovered calm and use [TS]

  promo code bridges to burn for ten [TS]

  percent off your first purchase [TS]

  thank you very much to her alright so [TS]

  there was a very interesting episode of [TS]

  the talk show this past week Tom DQ and [TS]

  Craig federighi were on the talk show [TS]

  and this is the third incarnation of an [TS]

  apple executive on the talk shows that [TS]

  correct yeah a factory second appearance [TS]

  either he's already had two groups [TS]

  already getting multiple appearances of [TS]

  apple executives shows you see the new [TS]

  malts and you never know when he can't [TS]

  get anybody else he calls a seafood and [TS]

  eq to come down [TS]

  yeah yeah totally [TS]

  so anyway so they got on the talk shows [TS]

  a great episode which is unsurprising [TS]

  why why do it [TS]

  yeah that's my first question is why are [TS]

  because the out as we made a joke that [TS]

  group called them up and bring them on [TS]

  sometimes that happens like I don't you [TS]

  know it i don't i'm not privy to any [TS]

  inside information about who calls who [TS]

  but the question is it regardless of who [TS]

  asked you to be on when why it do [TS]

  why does Applewhite apple executives [TS]

  agree to come on a podcast at this [TS]

  particular time when Craig federighi [TS]

  came on episode that I was actually on [TS]

  the sort of commentary portion [TS]

  afterwards [TS]

  clearly he was there to talk about Swift [TS]

  open source projects because that's [TS]

  that's what it came on the show to do [TS]

  that's what he talked about that it just [TS]

  happened right when swift one open [TS]

  source we talked about in the show they [TS]

  talked about on the talk show and so [TS]

  that was clear and in this case there's [TS]

  no as far as I'm aware there's not [TS]

  really any big apple announcement I mean [TS]

  I guess there's a 9.3 beta but that is a [TS]

  not particularly fresh news and so this [TS]

  is my assumption going in when I saw [TS]

  these were the guests was that they were [TS]

  going to talk about [TS]

  Walt Mossberg article because that's I [TS]

  guess big news but I mean that's the [TS]

  real question is not why is Apple having [TS]

  a executives like you know talk to [TS]

  websites as they did about Swift [TS]

  open-sourcing or go on podcast and stuff [TS]

  like that because that's all about the [TS]

  whole new open apple thing but it still [TS]

  seems like there has to be a reason and [TS]

  having listened to the show [TS]

  it's still not entirely clear to me like [TS]

  what what they were there to do like [TS]

  when you know when the celebrities on a [TS]

  talk show on television talk show the [TS]

  better about the movie that's that [TS]

  opening this weekend that they're in [TS]

  right or whatever you know and the same [TS]

  thing with a swift open-source like [TS]

  you're there to promote something your [TS]

  company's doing and then at the same [TS]

  time you know a good host of course as [TS]

  some other questions as well but i'm [TS]

  assuming even after listening to the [TS]

  episode that probably the reason they [TS]

  were there was to talk about the walt [TS]

  mossberg article but i'm not entirely [TS]

  sure what was your sense from listen to [TS]

  the episode that basically that same [TS]

  thing I mean it was you know III also [TS]

  assumed that there be more kind of like [TS]

  direct addressing of that but you know [TS]

  you have like I mean as we know the [TS]

  three people talking and you know it's [TS]

  only a 45-minute interview you know what [TS]

  you brought the formalities like there's [TS]

  not a whole lot of time for like actual [TS]

  in-depth discussion when you have three [TS]

  people who want to talk as we know is [TS]

  that's why our show is never 45 minutes [TS]

  long [TS]

  you're lucky to have us one segment be [TS]

  45 minutes on one topic that's show's [TS]

  logo is it never 45 minutes [TS]

  yes let's get started and so you know i [TS]

  think a lot of just time but but i also [TS]

  think you know this is Apple PR were [TS]

  talking about and even these are [TS]

  executives coming on a talk show with [TS]

  our friend John and you know in a kind a [TS]

  more casual environment this is still [TS]

  high power executives from the biggest [TS]

  technology company in the universe etc [TS]

  with very strong PR strategy and NPR [TS]

  control you know like these are people [TS]

  who are going to go off just off the [TS]

  deep end like have a couple doing [TS]

  something on the show and tell us all [TS]

  the secrets like that's not that is what [TS]

  this is you know this is in part it's [TS]

  probably to help humanize that there are [TS]

  people at this company not just robots [TS]

  in a brick wall like it's actually [TS]

  humans doing the best they can [TS]

  it's to humanize them and also i think [TS]

  it was really about this discussion of [TS]

  of software and service quality it was [TS]

  it was very [TS]

  obvious that they were prepared with [TS]

  stats and and you know various like [TS]

  author authorized figures they were able [TS]

  to give out about how well they're doing [TS]

  how well their quality is going the the [TS]

  crash rates that number of Apple music [TS]

  subscribers how well the websites and [TS]

  the web services hold up under all these [TS]

  loads know they were very clearly [TS]

  prepared with like PR proved stats they [TS]

  could share to demonstrate that we don't [TS]

  really have these big quality problems / [TS]

  we have good reasons to have quality [TS]

  problems like it was kind of like this [TS]

  slightly defensive but not like in like [TS]

  a really aggressive way and it was it [TS]

  was basically it see it read to me or it [TS]

  listen to me and it has to be it it [TS]

  listened a little defensive use red [TS]

  looking up its electric definition I [TS]

  know but yeah it it seemed slightly [TS]

  defensive but mostly just like almost [TS]

  almost in denial that there are any real [TS]

  like you know downward slopes going on [TS]

  here and and that might be true from a [TS]

  lot of things they talked about i mean [TS]

  their web services are at ridiculous [TS]

  scale and and they are mostly working [TS]

  most of the time and they do have tons [TS]

  of people using it but the the only [TS]

  nitpicks I i had with it really [TS]

  besides I wish it could be longer but I [TS]

  understand why i probably couldn't be [TS]

  seen I don't think you can get to high [TS]

  power apple executives to give you like [TS]

  three hours of rest as much as we would [TS]

  like them to but but you know i might my [TS]

  main it picks with it were basically [TS]

  that there really wasn't enough time to [TS]

  to kind of fight back a little bit order [TS]

  to ask a lot of the things a lot of [TS]

  their defenses were using excuses [TS]

  they're totally within apples control to [TS]

  change so for instance that the biggest [TS]

  one stuck out to me was when Craig [TS]

  federighi was a no [TS]

  overall I thought both Craig and Randy [TS]

  came off very well but but Craig it [TS]

  during during one party was saying how [TS]

  like people like snow leopard back in [TS]

  the day but nobody ever really installed [TS]

  snow leopard you know 10.6 points 0 and [TS]

  most of the time people are spending on [TS]

  like 10 points 6.4 template 6.5 [TS]

  etc and so he's basically saying like [TS]

  you know back then they had way fewer [TS]

  total users and also people wait longer [TS]

  before upgrade to the newest stuff [TS]

  well very heavily promoted very heavily [TS]

  pushed off an automatic software updates [TS]

  are with an apple control Apple has [TS]

  themselves very aggressively pushed OS [TS]

  updates every release since then and [TS]

  they use these to even be paid that was [TS]

  I think the first one that was thirty [TS]

  bucks something like that the name of [TS]

  that I've been free after that but like [TS]

  so back then they were paid and they [TS]

  were a bigger deal and also most [TS]

  critically didn't come out every year [TS]

  you know back then did the release cycle [TS]

  is more like every two years and I don't [TS]

  know the exact target exactly average [TS]

  you to write reviews of outlook but you [TS]

  know it you know back then we we had [TS]

  these longer cycles and of course you [TS]

  know the product for simpler because [TS]

  they were doing less and there is a [TS]

  valid point to be made that we now live [TS]

  in a way more complicated computing [TS]

  environment we have so many more devices [TS]

  that are doing so many more things [TS]

  interact with so many more services but [TS]

  then the argument that that Apple is [TS]

  somehow or rather the argument that you [TS]

  can excuse more flaws today because [TS]

  everyone upgrades really fast the latest [TS]

  OS today I don't think is a valid [TS]

  defense because Apple is the one pushing [TS]

  the updates that frequently and also [TS]

  apple is the one who nowadays the OS is [TS]

  never even get to like a point five [TS]

  point sexually anymore like the u.s. is [TS]

  now they're changed every year with [TS]

  major releases and major releases kind [TS]

  of allowed to be a little bit less [TS]

  stable and so you now it feels like we [TS]

  are not reaching the states that we used [TS]

  to reach for half the release cycle [TS]

  where things were pretty stable and you [TS]

  can update from like you know leopard to [TS]

  10.6 point for and be relatively sure [TS]

  that all they worked it all out by now [TS]

  now it seems like they don't have time [TS]

  to work it all out anymore and that is [TS]

  entirely an apple created construct [TS]

  apple has created these conditions [TS]

  apples the one pushing these conditions [TS]

  at it's totally within apples control to [TS]

  not heavily push the updates when it's [TS]

  still 2.02 not do updates every year if [TS]

  they don't want to for something like [TS]

  the mac which is not hiding high-profile [TS]

  this is totally with annapolis control [TS]

  to to fix or two [TS]

  you make better to improve and so that [TS]

  is not about defense before I want to [TS]

  pick up some of the things they said as [TS]

  well and and the format but i also want [TS]

  to hear but I'm going somewhere with [TS]

  this why were they on the show thing and [TS]

  I'm here Casey has the same impression [TS]

  that they were on to talk about software [TS]

  quality or if you thought they were on [TS]

  for some other reason or if they're on [TS]

  for no reason i think most simply it was [TS]

  about software quality but I agreed that [TS]

  it was a more meandering less focused [TS]

  appearance then I would have expected if [TS]

  they were if they were doing damage [TS]

  control and i'm not sure if that's [TS]

  deliberate if this meandering and this [TS]

  kind of casual conversation was was to [TS]

  lead us to believe that it wasn't damage [TS]

  control that it was just because and [TS]

  they just felt like talking to Gruber [TS]

  but i would say that worry not for [TS]

  Walt's article and clearly this podcast [TS]

  and I don't think that uh I don't see [TS]

  why they would have felt the need to go [TS]

  on John show and i don't mean that as a [TS]

  slight 22 gruber at all i just it's it's [TS]

  not a normal thing for one let alone two [TS]

  executives to just decide to go on a [TS]

  podcast so i think it was about damage [TS]

  control but I think whether or not it [TS]

  was deliberate [TS]

  it was loose enough to so that you [TS]

  couldn't say it was explicitly about [TS]

  damage control it and I'm leading up to [TS]

  Marco's points here so bear with me bite [TS]

  by related question this is what is the [TS]

  job of insert whatever Craig's title [TS]

  insurance or whatever his title is like [TS]

  senior vice-president software whatever [TS]

  like what is their job what if you were [TS]

  to look at the job description if they [TS]

  were hiring a new one if you know with [TS]

  Greg retires and they want to hire a [TS]

  replacement they don't want to promote [TS]

  from within whatever like what what is [TS]

  the job description of those executives [TS]

  and i can tell you in the Steve Jobs era [TS]

  the job description for all those super [TS]

  important guys you know head of all of [TS]

  OS 10 you know Bergeron survey or [TS]

  whatever or like get a spearhead of the [TS]

  iOS team or whatever that nowhere in [TS]

  that job description was be the [TS]

  mouthpiece for Apple I talked to the [TS]

  public in a way that moves public [TS]

  opinion in the direction that Apple [TS]

  wants to move it was just add [TS]

  absolutely not in any of their job [TS]

  descriptions because they never talk to [TS]

  the press they weren't allowed to talk [TS]

  to the press they barely talk to [TS]

  developers like that there was not in [TS]

  the end it's different than many other [TS]

  companies lots of other companies you [TS]

  could say oh well once you reach a [TS]

  certain level on the executive latter [TS]

  part of your job is to talk to the [TS]

  public in some way right now mediated by [TS]

  the PR department so on and so forth but [TS]

  that because you become a public figure [TS]

  that occasionally says things with the [TS]

  blessing of the cooperation in an effort [TS]

  to to change public opinion or to get [TS]

  your message out there or whatever [TS]

  there's not a lot of those people like [TS]

  everybody in the company is the voice of [TS]

  the company but now in the post jobs are [TS]

  in the more open apple which we all like [TS]

  clearly some of these people at a high [TS]

  enough level are now tasked with [TS]

  essentially or eat asking themselves [TS]

  with that we don't know how puts [TS]

  motivating whatever but they are being [TS]

  allowed that the company Apple is that [TS]

  as a company has decided we're going to [TS]

  send Craig federighi to 17 different [TS]

  websites and the talkshow to tell them [TS]

  about the Swift open source project [TS]

  we're not just gonna have a press [TS]

  release [TS]

  we're not just going to have someone say [TS]

  something in the keynote we're not just [TS]

  going to issue official statements to PR [TS]

  channels we're going to send this person [TS]

  whose job up to this point did not [TS]

  really involve a lot of public [TS]

  statements about things he's going to go [TS]

  out there and promote the Swift open [TS]

  source project and try to hit the points [TS]

  that we've all agreed that are the [TS]

  bullet points and like marcasite little [TS]

  sheet of whatever stats you want to say [TS]

  whatever facts you want to get out there [TS]

  like basically doing the job of PR but [TS]

  now there's a human doing and so now you [TS]

  have these two guys at Eddie and Craig [TS]

  coming on a very casual type of [TS]

  situation where they are talking [TS]

  unfiltered it's not real time it's not [TS]

  live but it's very you know just kind of [TS]

  like we're gonna talk and we're going to [TS]

  discuss things and the reason i asked [TS]

  about this is as in what the job is like [TS]

  that scale being able to being able to [TS]

  go somewhere in an atmosphere like that [TS]

  and hit the points that you want to hit [TS]

  and not sound defensive and move public [TS]

  opinion and not saying it not make any [TS]

  missteps that's not easy [TS]

  thing to do not that I'm saying you [TS]

  don't remember bad if they're much [TS]

  better than you know I would ever be [TS]

  like they're very skilled at their jobs [TS]

  but the job starting is not included [TS]

  this and when i listen to that episode [TS]

  I'm thinking some of these things as [TS]

  market one that were clearly written now [TS]

  like that you know that these are the [TS]

  points that we're going to hit about [TS]

  reliability and blah blah you you you [TS]

  might think that Apple is like Apple [TS]

  knows all and controls also every single [TS]

  thing that was said of that program was [TS]

  clearly playing at a time when Eddy Cue [TS]

  said that there's going to be a new [TS]

  version of the apple TV remote app for [TS]

  the iphone that includes all the [TS]

  functionality the remote then you'll be [TS]

  able to play games value that [TS]

  information was already out there and [TS]

  grouper just didn't have to know about [TS]

  it or was intentionally broken on the [TS]

  talk show that they said you're allowed [TS]

  to discuss this but I think there's also [TS]

  a possibility that Eddy Cue had just [TS]

  forgotten what that which things [TS]

  Republican which things from Todd and [TS]

  head accidentally officially confirmed [TS]

  the updated version of the apple remote [TS]

  application maybe every developer nah [TS]

  man I don't keep up guys it's not a it's [TS]

  not a story or whatever that was [TS]

  published by the way [TS]

  all right well anyway that type of thing [TS]

  where is our are all apple executives so [TS]

  well-trained PR despite having never [TS]

  done it as part of their job description [TS]

  that it is impossible for them to make a [TS]

  mistake and i think it is possible for [TS]

  them to make a mistake and I think every [TS]

  time the apple executives go into an [TS]

  atmosphere like this it is a risk from [TS]

  the old world perspective of apple of [TS]

  like but what if they accidentally say [TS]

  something I'm not supposed to say I mean [TS]

  again PR person is probably involved the [TS]

  show could be edited it's not live so [TS]

  and so far it's not that big of a risk [TS]

  but it is entirely different like if I [TS]

  was in these jobs will be like I've been [TS]

  working here for X number of years and [TS]

  never had to do this is part of my job [TS]

  and now it's like it's like a [TS]

  high-pressure situation where you're [TS]

  like you are supposed to speak for the [TS]

  company [TS]

  don't make any mistakes and by the way [TS]

  this is part of your job now and then [TS]

  time something goes wrong we send you [TS]

  out do it even if they you know [TS]

  technically don't say anything they're [TS]

  not supposed to say or whatever as Mark [TS]

  pointed out it doesn't mean that they [TS]

  are going to be able to present the [TS]

  information in a way that moves public [TS]

  opinion in the direction that they want [TS]

  so for example if they sound very [TS]

  defensive and don't give convincing [TS]

  reasons that make things worse instead [TS]

  of better reinforcing our worst notions [TS]

  or whatever about what was going on [TS]

  inside apple or if they [TS]

  uh or if they pointed they don't address [TS]

  particular point to say i had been an [TS]

  aggressive interview and they were being [TS]

  pressed they could have looked better [TS]

  you know what I like that there's so [TS]

  many dangers and just it's weird for me [TS]

  to think about its reform you think [TS]

  about this ever being part of the job of [TS]

  someone who started their career as a [TS]

  programmer and it was a very technical [TS]

  person and is now asked to do this thing [TS]

  yeah i mean and i think a part of the [TS]

  part of the risk evaluation here is that [TS]

  they they aren't sending pretty much [TS]

  anybody ever and if they do somebody [TS]

  it's like Tim Cook to general purpose [TS]

  interviewers out in like the the regular [TS]

  media you know they're sending these [TS]

  people to john cooper they know that [TS]

  he's like a respectable guy who gets [TS]

  Apple very well and was a good [TS]

  relationship with apple like that that's [TS]

  not an accident that they're giving him [TS]

  the dis access that nobody else really [TS]

  gets or the very few people get because [TS]

  they know that he's not gonna like be [TS]

  all like sensational on them and be [TS]

  super aggressive her or just spend the [TS]

  whole 45 minutes asking like about [TS]

  future iphone which they which they will [TS]

  never talk about like you know certainly [TS]

  it is still a risk to go [TS]

  unscrew these mostly unscripted I mean [TS]

  even like you know when he had filled [TS]

  the BBC like that was even more because [TS]

  that was like that was live in front of [TS]

  a few hundred people and broadcast the [TS]

  internet to a few more than 3,000 more [TS]

  least you know so he is I feel like Phil [TS]

  is actually good at that [TS]

  I got that it's always so he's been in [TS]

  marketing so like I think that has been [TS]

  part of his job description even he's [TS]

  not speaking for the company he [TS]

  essentially was telling people what to [TS]

  say on behalf of the company as part of [TS]

  his role as the chief of marketing so [TS]

  yeah you're right is much harder like in [TS]

  front of a live audience where you can't [TS]

  take back anything there's no editing or [TS]

  anything like that but Phil I I feel [TS]

  like it's an old hand at this and has no [TS]

  problem whereas particularly Craig [TS]

  always strikes me as a technical person [TS]

  who has had this role thrust upon him [TS]

  he's been thrust onto the stage keynotes [TS]

  and he's gotten really good at that and [TS]

  now he's just going off the cuff and you [TS]

  know kind of the same thing with Eddie [TS]

  where you didn't see a lot of him [TS]

  onstage until recent years right and [TS]

  maybe that's just part of his ascent in [TS]

  the organization but having that be part [TS]

  of your job and like and I'm saying that [TS]

  not as if I think like it's a bad thing [TS]

  that like oh this is like a danger and [TS]

  apple should cut it out [TS]

  merely that this new open apple that we [TS]

  all like [TS]

  this is part of what comes with it part [TS]

  of it comes to understanding on both [TS]

  sides of the fence that being more open [TS]

  means that human beings are going to [TS]

  come out and be open and if they say [TS]

  things wrong or whatever you can't hold [TS]

  them to the same standards as we help be [TS]

  carefully controlled manicured PR [TS]

  presence of the old Apple because you [TS]

  can't you can't have it [TS]

  can't you can't have it [TS]

  both ways were like we wanted to be more [TS]

  open but you want every single thing [TS]

  that every person has to be perfect all [TS]

  the time right [TS]

  you have to the more you're open the [TS]

  more we all in this sort of dialogue is [TS]

  you know customer and company have to [TS]

  become comfortable with the idea that in [TS]

  an open dialogue it's not as clean and [TS]

  shiny and perfect and so if they sound a [TS]

  little bit defensive it's because [TS]

  they're human beings and they're being [TS]

  asked questions that they might feel [TS]

  defensive about and you can't do you [TS]

  know excoriate them for being the humans [TS]

  that we always wish they were so I'm I'm [TS]

  i want to be clear on trying to do is I [TS]

  want to encourage more of this and i'm [TS]

  almost kind of sad that they didn't make [TS]

  any you know big but blunders because I [TS]

  think if they did I think it would be [TS]

  fine [TS]

  well but I think you're right that it [TS]

  would be fine however Apple wouldn't [TS]

  think it would be fine and so if they if [TS]

  they had made any big blunders it would [TS]

  greatly reduce the chances of us getting [TS]

  more access to them in the future like [TS]

  this [TS]

  what I'm trying to say to encourage [TS]

  Apple basically say at least I am and I [TS]

  think we all should be just more [TS]

  forgiving so that they can they can feel [TS]

  safe doing this because we want a more [TS]

  open dialogue and I think if anyone in [TS]

  sort of the apple tech press decides to [TS]

  jump on these times just gonna scare [TS]

  them back into their holes so let's [TS]

  let's let's be nice but yeah but you [TS]

  know we can be nice and we can be civil [TS]

  and we can still disagree with things [TS]

  they say or you can criticize you know [TS]

  things they say in normal civil ways you [TS]

  know and so I don't think I'm not saying [TS]

  like I don't think you're saying that we [TS]

  should take it easy on the necessarily [TS]

  just that we should you know be civil [TS]

  and reasonable and not not like you know [TS]

  kind of given the benefit of the doubt [TS]

  if they'd like misspeak slightly or [TS]

  something is I would really is roughly [TS]

  what you're saying yeah and as for like [TS]

  your specific points about lightning [TS]

  that you're right it was a short [TS]

  interview that was a lot of time to get [TS]

  into things and as I said when Craig was [TS]

  on they're not going to go into the [TS]

  level of detail that we go into about [TS]

  these things that's not the forum for [TS]

  it's not as if it like that that's part [TS]

  of what you know what is their job and [TS]

  also what is the purpose of a podcast [TS]

  like this when you have these executives [TS]

  there it that is not the time to [TS]

  harangue them about whatever your pet [TS]

  problem is you're not going to affect [TS]

  the [TS]

  you know the design apple's macintosh [TS]

  application design philosophy that [TS]

  leaves begin to a bar side you are not [TS]

  going to change that philosophy by [TS]

  arguing with Gregg federighi about it on [TS]

  a podcast right you're not going to get [TS]

  him to say yeah you're right it sucks [TS]

  like that like you like you are going to [TS]

  get a DQ to say yeah itunes is horrible [TS]

  and the itunes store infrastructure is [TS]

  just the worst but hold on i mean he did [TS]

  admit that like itunes challenges [TS]

  whatever the whole point is like you're [TS]

  not going to like that's it there's a [TS]

  time and place for that in this writ [TS]

  small that I think we're all at this [TS]

  point familiar with is that if you go to [TS]

  WWDC and you find the one guy who writes [TS]

  the obscure framework their application [TS]

  is using you could possibly convince him [TS]

  one-on-one to change this parameter in [TS]

  this API to do this thing in the next [TS]

  major version that can actually happen [TS]

  right that is the level of individuals [TS]

  ability to talk to other individuals as [TS]

  humans but it's not in public that [TS]

  person who commits will never admit that [TS]

  they talk to you and it's like a [TS]

  parameter an API call right you know [TS]

  it's very different than you know trying [TS]

  to convince the you know flying out to [TS]

  cupertino and sitting down a giant table [TS]

  with the entire executive team at apple [TS]

  and say in this 10-minute presentation [TS]

  go i'm going to convince you that you [TS]

  need to redesign photos in this [TS]

  particular way and then they will [TS]

  dismiss you and you know then they will [TS]

  realize they were working on new version [TS]

  of photos for like a year a new version [TS]

  of itunes for 12 years or a new file [TS]

  system for X number of years and you [TS]

  know you you don't have enough [TS]

  information put another way you don't [TS]

  have enough information to be compelling [TS]

  to them so i think all we can do as a [TS]

  sort of the public out here is merely [TS]

  explain things from our perspective [TS]

  because we just we just simply don't [TS]

  have enough information to make to [TS]

  convince Apple to do anything but you [TS]

  have no idea we still have no idea what [TS]

  they're actually doing all we can do is [TS]

  say here's how we feel as users and hope [TS]

  that gets through to them and if we feel [TS]

  like there's a communication barrier [TS]

  then thats that's what them coming on [TS]

  podcast is about saying we hear you we [TS]

  understand your concerns and you can go [TS]

  back and forth on them and try to [TS]

  clarify them or whatever and when it [TS]

  feels like there's a gap like in this [TS]

  case where Mark was saying that like [TS]

  well you don't understand here's all the [TS]

  things we have to deal with like where [TS]

  you start sounding defensive and you can [TS]

  come back with snappy answers like well [TS]

  google has [TS]

  with this kind of volume 2 and they do [TS]

  it better so what's the deal there are [TS]

  all itunes big load for years and [TS]

  everybody degrees in this so where's the [TS]

  new version and you say you agree but [TS]

  where is that like they're not going to [TS]

  tell you all the new version we've been [TS]

  working on it for a while now it's gonna [TS]

  come out and it's gonna be split into [TS]

  this number applications and blonde [TS]

  didn't make this really they're not [TS]

  going to tell you that [TS]

  so all they can do is get their [TS]

  perspective in a sanitized way so it's a [TS]

  little bit like boys and girls with the [TS]

  dance at the opposite sides of the gym [TS]

  and no one going into the middle to [TS]

  dance and and it has to be that way [TS]

  because at the very least apple is not [TS]

  going to you know to reveal itself in [TS]

  the public forum we have the advantage [TS]

  of being able to real all of our [TS]

  frustrations and put them out there and [TS]

  then have apple hear them in whatever [TS]

  way that one here but Apple is not going [TS]

  to be that forthcoming so it is it's [TS]

  still strange relationship but i like [TS]

  the fact that there is any kind of [TS]

  communication going in both directions [TS]

  of these days [TS]

  yeah I've been really impressed by [TS]

  Apple's willingness to communicate and [TS]

  and i agree with you i would really hate [TS]

  to see that stop [TS]

  I'm I've really enjoyed these episodes [TS]

  of the talk show and you know if they [TS]

  ever decided to branch out into other [TS]

  podcast I'm sure that it could be [TS]

  accommodated by home with that said I [TS]

  was reflecting on my memory of the [TS]

  episode III listen to it pretty much [TS]

  immediately once it was out this was [TS]

  almost week ago now but on there was a [TS]

  bit of a theme you can you keep saying [TS]

  John being defensive and I think that's [TS]

  a fair characterization but reflecting [TS]

  on the the pieces that struck me the [TS]

  most was a little bit of playing the [TS]

  victim [TS]

  itunes is really old and we have to [TS]

  support devices that go back to the [TS]

  beginning of time you know what do you [TS]

  expect us to do we have a lot of users [TS]

  guys you don't get it we have a lot of [TS]

  users let me tell you all the things we [TS]

  do well we're gonna leave the [TS]

  transactions we process right you know [TS]

  any q's ready with big numbers for [TS]

  presentations we do a lot of these [TS]

  things and like you have to acknowledge [TS]

  like yes they do those things but likely [TS]

  sure the communication barrier is like [TS]

  we understand what you're doing is that [TS]

  god it's like playing the victim is one [TS]

  way to say but the other way is like [TS]

  it's like being in operations or [TS]

  whatever you want to call it at any big [TS]

  company where you're the one responsible [TS]

  for service and stuff working [TS]

  nobody cares about your job when [TS]

  everything goes well right they only [TS]

  care about it when something breaks [TS]

  right you get no credit practically for [TS]

  hey did you guys realize that for the [TS]

  past you know X number of hours or days [TS]

  or whatever this service was perfectly [TS]

  fine know they like they just expected [TS]

  it's like the power company that markets [TS]

  are talking about [TS]

  nobody cares about the power company [TS]

  when the power is on you only care about [TS]

  the power company on the one day a year [TS]

  it's often then you're super pissed off [TS]

  at them [TS]

  I'm so in some ways it's a thankless job [TS]

  but but that is the job if you work at [TS]

  the power company you understand that [TS]

  the job when the power goes out because [TS]

  of something you don't say look you [TS]

  don't understand how many how many miles [TS]

  of lines we have and there's ice all [TS]

  over them and you know tree branches [TS]

  leaning on them and birds pecking at [TS]

  them and we don't have tax money to fund [TS]

  like the power company can make all [TS]

  those same exact complaints and they [TS]

  should do the parties they can change [TS]

  things but when your power goes out you [TS]

  don't wanna hear it [TS]

  yeah exactly and you know this this [TS]

  victim sort of card got played couple [TS]

  more times [TS]

  oh you know yes we have a lot of users [TS]

  and yes we are we are decent to serving [TS]

  a lot of users let's say with iMessage [TS]

  but you have to understand that we scale [TS]

  exponentially which all these things to [TS]

  be clear are fair [TS]

  yeah affair observations but but still [TS]

  it's only you guys don't get it you [TS]

  don't get it but the the one that we [TS]

  haven't talked about that i thought was [TS]

  most fascinating was a pretty clear [TS]

  no I'm gonna use the word admission but [TS]

  that's not really what I'm looking for [TS]

  but acknowledgement maybe a pretty clear [TS]

  acknowledgement from craig that radar is [TS]

  kind of fundamentally broken our serving [TS]

  for serving the public that's like [TS]

  acknowledging that it's dark at night I [TS]

  mean that's what fun things you just [TS]

  can't like yeah something that [TS]

  undeniable even any admitted itunes blow [TS]

  but radar yeah no one is going to be I [TS]

  don't think it's possible to send anyone [TS]

  from Apple to come out to defend radar [TS]

  web and I think you're right but [TS]

  nevertheless I thought it was an [TS]

  important step for it to be said in [TS]

  public that hey this is broken and [TS]

  there's a little bit of victim playing [TS]

  here too [TS]

  well you don't understand that's super [TS]

  important for us internally this is this [TS]

  serves a really really big purpose for [TS]

  us we can't just throw out the baby with [TS]

  the bathwater yeah we we really needed [TS]

  internally but you know we probably have [TS]

  some room to grow externally [TS]

  in and i thought that that Vic victim [TS]

  playing all of which to some degree was [TS]

  fair was interesting it was very subtle [TS]

  but most of all I just thought it was [TS]

  fascinating to see some admissions of [TS]

  infallibility coming from the two of [TS]

  them [TS]

  yeah i think someone with more PR [TS]

  training more formal PR training would [TS]

  know that those are not winning ankles [TS]

  as Marco pointed out in the the episode [TS]

  that we almost titled for effort like [TS]

  that if you work really hard on [TS]

  something you can't come to the public [TS]

  with that like that's what you tell [TS]

  yourself internally right you can have [TS]

  these discussions internally about [TS]

  here's why it's really hard to do [TS]

  whatever to deal with itunes because [TS]

  it's really popular to deal with updates [TS]

  like these are everything they're saying [TS]

  is true but when you go to the public [TS]

  part of PR training is to know what can [TS]

  we say to the public there that that is [TS]

  going to move their opinion in the way [TS]

  that we want to move you have to that's [TS]

  the problem with having engineers talk [TS]

  to anybody they will just tell you the [TS]

  truth and they will explain the real [TS]

  situations and if you explain you know [TS]

  and if if your job is PR it's not to [TS]

  simply tell the truth about the [TS]

  situation and not even to tell limited [TS]

  version that is to figure out what can i [TS]

  say that will make people change their [TS]

  minds slightly about issue XR wiring [TS]

  doesn't mean you have to lie or be [TS]

  manipulative or whatever but it is a [TS]

  skill that being you know there's a [TS]

  reason PRS profession and not like the [TS]

  injuries would have to do PR on the side [TS]

  like it is an actual real skill and it [TS]

  takes a while [TS]

  same thing with presenting on stage it [TS]

  takes awhile to get good at and there's [TS]

  training involved in everything like [TS]

  that i think both those guys on the show [TS]

  showed a slight lack of PR training in [TS]

  in terms of there are things that they [TS]

  said that either shouldn't upset or [TS]

  should have said in a different way to [TS]

  to move the needle on the direction that [TS]

  seemed to me that they wanted to move it [TS]

  and and you know i like the more for it [TS]

  like in terms of seems more human and I [TS]

  a do want to hear the inside scoop and I [TS]

  do one here with the thinking about [TS]

  these things but PR why's it may not [TS]

  have been effective as another angle but [TS]

  I'm same information i think if they had [TS]

  if they were more strictly PR trained or [TS]

  or word hearing more strictly to PR [TS]

  styles of of speaking and responding i [TS]

  think it would have been far less [TS]

  interesting so here's my perfect example [TS]

  of the opposite that Steve Jobs was as [TS]

  far as an hour not PR trained super [TS]

  interesting but he knew what to say to [TS]

  move things in the direction you want to [TS]

  move them [TS]

  oh sure yeah but i would say like like I [TS]

  don't like when tim cook these [TS]

  interviews to like you know 60 minutes [TS]

  whatever i stopped even watching them [TS]

  yeah those are boring he's so controlled [TS]

  and so trained and send just his [TS]

  personality is you know he keeps things [TS]

  so close to the vest like I get nothing [TS]

  out of them [TS]

  also he's like a genuinely nice guy it [TS]

  seems like it's not well everybody's [TS]

  nice for steve jobs at an edge really [TS]

  Steve Jobs like you know like Steve Jobs [TS]

  gonna give some digging like AT&T you [TS]

  knew he'd do it looking publicly like [TS]

  stuff like that like I i feel like you [TS]

  know tim cook speaks the way i would [TS]

  expect most CEOs to speak you know and [TS]

  he's better than the average certainly [TS]

  but but you know it's not like not in [TS]

  the way that's like a major event when [TS]

  he talks to a network news show for 20 [TS]

  minutes about what they're doing you [TS]

  know it's not ever taken tim cook for [TS]

  granted because like when I feel like [TS]

  when tim cook talks about the [TS]

  environment or labor practices just like [TS]

  that I genuine human rights that I [TS]

  genuinely believe that Tim Cook really [TS]

  believes those things like it's not some [TS]

  smarmy kind of i'm saying this to make [TS]

  our company like he seems genuine and he [TS]

  seems like a genuine friendly person who [TS]

  cares about the world and wants to make [TS]

  a better and so on and so forth and that [TS]

  can be boring when you're looking for [TS]

  like blood in the water [TS]

  something like that i'm steve jobs as [TS]

  the example of like I think he was just [TS]

  instinctive like instinctively he was a [TS]

  natural at it knowing how could talk [TS]

  eventually was a natural when he was [TS]

  young it wasn't great at it but they [TS]

  have the latter day Steve job knowing [TS]

  how to talk to the press to move the [TS]

  discussion or the issue or public [TS]

  opinion or whatever in the direction he [TS]

  wanted to use I wanted to go in [TS]

  while still sounding entirely genuine [TS]

  human and interesting because he was [TS]

  willing to say the thing that you know [TS]

  take a dig at some other vendor or say [TS]

  something is crap or something is great [TS]

  or whatever or have make blanket denials [TS]

  that he goes back on later whatever he [TS]

  was able to do that just instinctively [TS]

  and that dessert I think a rare skill [TS]

  that again even see [TS]

  jobs didn't happen as early days when he [TS]

  was young with say terrible things to [TS]

  the President and then regret them later [TS]

  and I don't think Craig annuity quite [TS]

  have that yet but i'm saying is i think [TS]

  you can be if not PR trained or good at [TS]

  you know that better moving the [TS]

  discussion while still being see both [TS]

  seaming and being entirely human [TS]

  i mean i think that the the Swift [TS]

  open-source thing was a better example [TS]

  that because there was the real like [TS]

  that it wasn't like a defensive or try [TS]

  to change public opinion was really [TS]

  promoting something that Craig really [TS]

  believed in that actually was a really [TS]

  good thing and so he could be very [TS]

  detailed and human and funny and [TS]

  interesting and also promote the idea [TS]

  that Swift is awesome that open source [TS]

  is awesome the Apple is awesome for [TS]

  doing Swift open source and all that [TS]

  stuff all of which he agreed with and [TS]

  was able to promote in a way that was [TS]

  interesting and engaging and in this [TS]

  situation it seems kind of like these [TS]

  two we're thrown to the wolves at bay [TS]

  and again I don't know this is based on [TS]

  information I don't know do they [TS]

  volunteer for this where they told they [TS]

  should do this [TS]

  did John asked them to be on who you [TS]

  know who knows what the situation was [TS]

  but it almost seemed like they found [TS]

  themselves in a situation where you know [TS]

  it's up to you to try to move the needle [TS]

  on this issue of public opinion about [TS]

  this while boss work thing so here you [TS]

  go [TS]

  good luck guys are famill sponsor [TS]

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  for some guy to come over and I'm not [TS]

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  right but it's for razors because let's [TS]

  face it buying reason the drugstore is [TS]

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  just 15 bucks a 16 pack is 25 bucks now [TS]

  I'm recovering [TS]

  shaving nerd and I I've compared a lot [TS]

  of blades out there this to me is the [TS]

  best deal and shaving today from what [TS]

  I've seen from what I've tried you can't [TS]

  beat Harry's 16 pack up late for 25 [TS]

  bucks i mean if you compare that to [TS]

  something like the gillette fusion which [TS]

  I would say is its closest competitor a [TS]

  16 pack fusion blades is fifty-six [TS]

  dollars that's what Harris Harris urges [TS]

  $25 for so really this is less than half [TS]

  the price of the bigger brands so check [TS]

  it out today go to Harry's com get that [TS]

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  very nice classy designs to the handles [TS]

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  they're nice and heavy too heavy to [TS]

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  purchase so go to Harry's dot-com right [TS]

  now [TS]

  use promo code ATP get that starter set [TS]

  15 bucks and save five dollars off your [TS]

  first purchase with cody thanks a lot of [TS]

  areas [TS]

  alright what else you talkin about [TS]

  tonight John this item has been in the [TS]

  notes for a little bit i think i've seen [TS]

  some links to it because it went around [TS]

  the web a couple weeks ago that was [TS]

  worth keeping because while you might [TS]

  have you seen this [TS]

  the thing about to like to hear that [TS]

  thing about vector networks from this [TS]

  company figma no I i saw it but I don't [TS]

  understand it but it sounds cool because [TS]

  like I as somebody who likes so that the [TS]

  idea of this is like a new way to draw a [TS]

  vector art basically can like a new [TS]

  basically a new like data structure for [TS]

  vector art and and I have always been [TS]

  baffled by the few attempts I've made [TS]

  doing vector art be like as you know in [TS]

  from my very very light and very [TS]

  occasional needs to do it that these [TS]

  programs always been very hard for me to [TS]

  understand and it's been very hard for [TS]

  me to achieve the result i want that [TS]

  seems very obvious ago I just want this [TS]

  line to go from here to here and be [TS]

  perfectly smooth and like it's so hard [TS]

  to do some of those things if you aren't [TS]

  familiar with with like the tools of [TS]

  Bezier curves basically and weird weird [TS]

  stuff like that so it do understand [TS]

  correctly this is kind of like an [TS]

  alternative whole system that makes more [TS]

  sense [TS]

  yeah so this since this as far as i can [TS]

  tell it's not a piece of software you [TS]

  can download to try at this point I'm [TS]

  just going by [TS]

  the various animations and then the [TS]

  description on their website and i don't [TS]

  know if it will be any good or old bed [TS]

  do what they say it will do but i'm most [TS]

  interested in it because very often I [TS]

  see in discussions about software for [TS]

  running platform iOS and mac or whatever [TS]

  now a lot of people myself included fall [TS]

  into the the fatalistic notion sometimes [TS]

  that there's no point in making an [TS]

  application that does X because that's a [TS]

  soft problem and you don't need another [TS]

  one and the markets all tied up and you [TS]

  know you don't want to go red ocean you [TS]

  wanna go blue ocean go where nobody else [TS]

  is and find the market that is unserved [TS]

  and serve that one [TS]

  aren't most oceans blue else's analogies [TS]

  the nintendo wii think you know about [TS]

  this right just really a poor color [TS]

  choice red oceans because there's blood [TS]

  in the water from the competitors eating [TS]

  each other but doesn't lose you mean [TS]

  there's no customers because it's just [TS]

  empty [TS]

  yes that's right you want to go where no [TS]

  one is serving the customers is it there [TS]

  are no competitors like what you the [TS]

  other competitors are the are the things [TS]

  you can change the color of the water no [TS]

  competitors are there eating each other [TS]

  you'll just be the only one there and no [TS]

  one is eating you so there's no blood in [TS]

  the ocean but you have nobody to either [TS]

  because there's no customers the water [TS]

  your customers it's not a perfect [TS]

  I don't make it happen ease i think [TS]

  anyone ever started for the we go [TS]

  reference old hypercritical episodes as [TS]

  always I'll be the answer key is there [TS]

  it's like the rosetta stone just go back [TS]

  we should totally review business books [TS]

  in the show [TS]

  oh god you thought you were escape Casey [TS]

  that's not so anyway with the vector [TS]

  drawing outside the same experience I [TS]

  got used illustrator 88 and learned how [TS]

  to use vector tools and the various [TS]

  applications into more variety back then [TS]

  like mac girl and almost all the other [TS]

  applications you guys have never heard [TS]

  of or used but these days it has settled [TS]

  down in most vector drawing applications [TS]

  and now that illustrator is like wipe [TS]

  them all from the face of the planet [TS]

  free hands even around the neighborhood [TS]

  ever follow a similar theme for in terms [TS]

  of the controls just a lot of is just [TS]

  because of historically speaking that [TS]

  once you establish the sort of keyboard [TS]

  modifiers that everyone is used to and [TS]

  everything that is like out what drawing [TS]

  vectors in this particular way and at [TS]

  this point if you're not someone who [TS]

  uses about growing up all the time you [TS]

  will find it weird and you like Marco [TS]

  will not be able to do what you want to [TS]

  do [TS]

  because it will seem like i just want to [TS]

  connect this line to that line to that [TS]

  line and why doesn't let me connect here [TS]

  and no this is actually connected that [TS]

  line is disconnected and there's little [TS]

  endcap sticking out and why can't this [TS]

  curve go the way I wanted and you know [TS]

  what is the winding number and why when [TS]

  i try to fill this region does it leak [TS]

  out because it looks like this entirely [TS]

  closed circle and also the crap and at [TS]

  the same time a software developer would [TS]

  so I'm not gonna do a vector drawing [TS]

  application that market is so not like [TS]

  there are so many strong competitors and [TS]

  there's great applications what [TS]

  Who am I even serving with like say I'm [TS]

  making a vector drawing application that [TS]

  that's really good i say it's just all [TS]

  you know just as good as one of the [TS]

  strong market leaders so what who's [TS]

  gonna buy mine is already an application [TS]

  that does that by Napoli by a vendor has [TS]

  been around longer than has more support [TS]

  that has you know they have such a head [TS]

  start on me is no point and i like the [TS]

  idea of this vector networks thing of I [TS]

  think in every application domain there [TS]

  is the possibility of saying yeah it if [TS]

  there's a market that is you know [TS]

  heavily saturated with lots of very [TS]

  strong competitors that's probably hard [TS]

  to break into but if you look at the [TS]

  market and say but you know what they [TS]

  all suck in this one particular way and [TS]

  their users either don't realize that [TS]

  sucks in that way or don't care because [TS]

  they learn the old system and there [TS]

  could be people out there who are not [TS]

  buying vector drawing applications to [TS]

  see the existing ones they can't figure [TS]

  out how to use them so i can make a [TS]

  better way to draw vectors I can a get [TS]

  customers that don't buy these other [TS]

  applications or aren't satisfied with [TS]

  them and be possibly become the new [TS]

  great vector application because maybe [TS]

  even designers want to do it this way [TS]

  and not deal with those frustrations or [TS]

  whatever or you just failed miserably [TS]

  and realize that there's no competing [TS]

  with illustrator and you know too bad [TS]

  but I I'm heartened by efforts like this [TS]

  because it reminds me that there is no [TS]

  problem that is so well solve that can't [TS]

  be solved better by someone else with a [TS]

  better idea [TS]

  and so I i'm looking forward to trying [TS]

  this application and if it doesn't work [TS]

  out or is actually worse than the old [TS]

  one [TS]

  oh well but i really liked seeing [TS]

  stories like this and i really want [TS]

  people to do more things like this [TS]

  because as you can imagine there's not a [TS]

  single application i use every day that [TS]

  I don't think could be better in some [TS]

  fundamental way is so perfect [TS]

  that's right a you would listen that [TS]

  show good job once or twice yeah yeah [TS]

  yeah it's just glancing at the [TS]

  graphics and I haven't read the article [TS]

  looks very cool my only foray into [TS]

  vector drawing was the world's best app [TS]

  icon with feet [TS]

  yes and and so i am not the one to talk [TS]

  about this but it looks neat for sure [TS]

  I'm s what I mess up because i don't i'm [TS]

  not going to using the current crop of [TS]

  vector tools but what I miss a lot is [TS]

  briefly i believe in college got it so [TS]

  long as i can remember it wasn't pretty [TS]

  sure with autocad everyone will you [TS]

  email and tell me what application was [TS]

  but it's the one where you you can draw [TS]

  things with the command line in addition [TS]

  to using the mouse and stuff it's [TS]

  probably autocad and for a brief moment [TS]

  I got pretty good doing that and I could [TS]

  do things with that command line and [TS]

  what I think was autocad that I still [TS]

  can't do with illustrator in terms of [TS]

  connect this line to their perpendicular [TS]

  to that intersect that with this like I [TS]

  always have such difficulty of like I [TS]

  just want this point to be on that line [TS]

  and I want the angle between the two to [TS]

  be this and I don't care if it's not on [TS]

  a grid line and I don't care like just I [TS]

  can describe to you what I want like in [TS]

  immuno in this command line parlance why [TS]

  stupid pen tool you refuse to do that [TS]

  why do I have to click option click [TS]

  shift click no don't start making a [TS]

  curve no don't connect to that line know [TS]

  now you know in AutoCAD I could always [TS]

  get what I wanted and inform z the only [TS]

  other thing that comes too close to that [TS]

  form Z is an old 3d program maybe it's [TS]

  still out there whatever I remember the [TS]

  same thing remember eventually being [TS]

  able to do pretty much everything that I [TS]

  wanted in that program despite it being [TS]

  incredibly complicated yet to this day [TS]

  vector drawing tools defeat me because [TS]

  they follow a set of rules that is I [TS]

  guess I just disagree with him the [TS]

  headphone and refuse to internalize [TS]

  enough [TS]

  alright thanks 143 sponsors this week [TS]

  backblaze hover and Harry's and we'll [TS]

  see you next week [TS]

  now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

  mean to begin as it was accidental [TS]

  it was accidental [TS]

  John any research Marco in kc would let [TS]

  go [TS]

  because it was accidental was accidental [TS]

  you can find the show know today TV die [TS]

  and if your twitter follow them [TS]

  yes eyl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

  co-pay rm20 Marco Arment and our AC at [TS]

  Syracuse [TS]

  what [TS]

  my Sam but the sandbox title here i'm [TS]

  thinking of jumping the possible over as [TS]

  many people as possible in the sandbox [TS]

  or as many people in the sandbox is [TS]

  possibly because even if it is it's [TS]

  already and square space stone but I [TS]

  don't know if the title is it accurate [TS]

  representation of what we said I'm just [TS]

  saying which one sounds which one sounds [TS]

  better [TS]

  i'm pretty sure that was the accurate [TS]

  prediction what you said and I i think [TS]

  it's got better as is [TS]

  yeah agreed yes I think it's but if i [TS]

  was writing it I would put the possible [TS]

  first but it was a podcast that people [TS]

  speak and i know im just looking at it [TS]

  and thinking about the long title it's [TS]

  got things to move around a lot [TS]

  nothing that is so perfect know mangle [TS]

  that their job [TS]

  yeah oh yeah another medical yeah [TS]

  nothing that is so what everyone yeah [TS]

  you get the idea [TS]

  yeah we have made this tire decided you [TS]

  know we discovered a neutral method [TS]

  slightly misquoting John back to himself [TS]

  doesn't know i doing to myself are you [TS]

  talking about one every time I listen to [TS]

  myself on a podcast that happens making [TS]

  you explain that when I wasn't myself I [TS]

  hear all the things i say wrong and I'm [TS]

  effectively trolling myself [TS]

  ok so but it's not like you're not like [TS]

  you're not like saying as you listen [TS]

  along saying in your head what you said [TS]

  differently you're just you're mad that [TS]

  you said something that was not what you [TS]

  think that is accurate [TS]

  I can always here when I'm the listener [TS]

  io here all my mistakes [TS]

  well you should try editing the show [TS]

  it's wrong but brutal at least you get [TS]

  to fix them I have no control [TS]

  well i guess i can fix some of them you [TS]

  know yeah but you fix yours way better [TS]

  than you fix mine [TS]

  yeah well because I i I'm more critical [TS]

  of myself would you say your [TS]

  hypercritical if you ended the show we [TS]

  would never publish a show his head so [TS]

  don't know that I've never I've never [TS]

  added anything have no idea what kind of [TS]

  editor i would be a critical one [TS]

  probably the same thing I would fix [TS]

  everything that I said leave everyone [TS]

  else is that sound dumped you for me [TS]

  your your part of the show is the [TS]

  easiest to edit because you talk for [TS]

  long spans mostly uninterruptedly and [TS]

  they very rarely require any alterations [TS]

  so mostly most of what you say just skip [TS]

  over like I just skin [TS]

  it for like whiter than usual gaps and [TS]

  shrink those but for the most part i [TS]

  don't i don't even listen to what you [TS]

  say on the editors I heard during the [TS]

  show I know it's fine i listened to it [TS]

  and I make mistakes anyway it's fine [TS]

  part of the process you getting you [TS]

  getting the real John in the edit the [TS]

  raw you brought uncut siracusa circus [TS]

  man you're finally managed to be fine [TS]

  and everything's you get inside your own [TS]

  head of the rated acusa I don't know [TS]

  yeah siracusa you're fine yeah fine i [TS]

  know you're talking about refer back to [TS]

  the hypercritical episode where I [TS]

  discussed the primary purpose of speech [TS]

  or writing is to communicate an idea and [TS]

  if I basically if I know you're talking [TS]

  about your successfully communicated [TS]

  that idea [TS]