The Accidental Tech Podcast

156: A Mac on Fire

 

  I have not looked at the show notes by [TS]

  the way so whatever we're talking about [TS]

  going to be suppressed me your job you [TS]

  try to use a ipad full-time so it's [TS]

  basically all you today so it looks like [TS]

  all right we're going boy we sure got a [TS]

  lot of feedback about last week's [TS]

  episode like a lot and this you know so [TS]

  last week's episode we were especially [TS]

  unusually critical of apple and in [TS]

  particular their UI design it recently [TS]

  especially things like the apple TV and [TS]

  the Photos app we have so many responses [TS]

  from that and they are split right down [TS]

  the middle [TS]

  it was a very polarizing episode of [TS]

  about half of the comments said I can't [TS]

  believe you are still you're so negative [TS]

  about Apple I'm getting so tired of this [TS]

  i can I just can't listen anymore this [TS]

  is I just can't take it anymore I can't [TS]

  take the negativity and the other half [TS]

  was I am so happy you guys are finally [TS]

  saying all this stuff for that you are [TS]

  drawing attention to this problem that i [TS]

  also agree with or have or thank thank [TS]

  goodness I'm so happy you you covered [TS]

  this including people in apple but said [TS]

  they were very happy that we covered it [TS]

  so I don't know what to think about that [TS]

  did you actually count them I've meant [TS]

  to count them as well because i felt [TS]

  like it was definitely was it was it was [TS]

  not lopsided one way or the other but [TS]

  I'm like you know you like your [TS]

  perception of the feedback is different [TS]

  like maybe I'm thinking am I weighing [TS]

  the ones that agree with me too much or [TS]

  am I weighing the ones that disagree [TS]

  because they feel bad too much like [TS]

  sighs you know I should just count them [TS]

  but I of course i never got around to it [TS]

  but I should go back and do that to say [TS]

  visit my impression just based on feel [TS]

  was that it was more slightly more [TS]

  supporters than detractors but I you [TS]

  know I could be wrong enough but anyway [TS]

  it was definitely not a landslide in one [TS]

  direction other and the end like it [TS]

  wasn't so much the volume of the [TS]

  feedback as each piece of feedback was [TS]

  very emphatic about whatever their point [TS]

  was you they really really loved it and [TS]

  are like thank God for our that was a [TS]

  great episode or the best episode ever [TS]

  or [TS]

  ever or the exact opposite that was the [TS]

  worst ever i hate you all goodbye and [TS]

  yeah it's funny I didn't count either [TS]

  but I'm but my conclusion was nearly [TS]

  identical my conclusion was it was split [TS]

  really close to 50 50 I would actually [TS]

  say it was slightly more you guys need [TS]

  to stop whining and slightly less oh [TS]

  thank goodness somebody's saying it but [TS]

  it was near as makes no difference to [TS]

  5050 and and I was I don't know is a [TS]

  little bit sad to see so many people [TS]

  upset about it but by and large I felt [TS]

  like the feedback was certainly [TS]

  polarizing like market said yeah I felt [TS]

  better about even even though the people [TS]

  who didn't like me you like it you like [TS]

  it like it like this you know everyone's [TS]

  entitled to their opinion right but but [TS]

  i really felt like a you know as we've [TS]

  been talking about these various issues [TS]

  related to apple that of all the [TS]

  episodes we've had that have touched on [TS]

  these topics i thought it was fairly [TS]

  constructive like that it wasn't just [TS]

  complaining for the same plan that we [TS]

  were trying to figure out like what is [TS]

  you know describe the problem in detail [TS]

  just like I did not like I don't like [TS]

  good Apple TV it's bad like we had [TS]

  reasons right and then and then trying [TS]

  to dig and why those reasons there what [TS]

  could they do differently like specific [TS]

  and constructive right and and without [TS]

  any sort of their four apples doom stuff [TS]

  and I can you know so i guess for some [TS]

  people did the making it specifically [TS]

  instructive doesn't matter as much as [TS]

  like you know just taking too long and [TS]

  her whatever anyway yeah you might try [TS]

  to change anyone's mind about what they [TS]

  do or don't want to hear in a podcast [TS]

  but for my part at least that's what I'm [TS]

  always aiming for is if you're going to [TS]

  be talking about problems that you're [TS]

  having try to do it in a constructive [TS]

  way [TS]

  try not to be mean-spirited not to get [TS]

  carried away but to really get to the [TS]

  heart of the matter and try to like [TS]

  figure it out imagine that it was your [TS]

  problem to solve how would you solve it [TS]

  what is what is the way to fix this [TS]

  that's what that's what I'm always [TS]

  thinking yeah great so I'm hopefully [TS]

  we'll have some happier show's over the [TS]

  next few but knowing us we'll see how [TS]

  hurts and hopes but but speaking of [TS]

  happy things [TS]

  do we have any follow-up a couple items [TS]

  here this last episode as part of our [TS]

  critiquing the photos you I am [TS]

  general trend on the mac of simplifying [TS]

  mac applications one of the quotes i [TS]

  threw out that i thought was I still [TS]

  don't remember the designers now I [TS]

  thought was the guy not the bang & [TS]

  olufsen guy maybe daram maybe him [TS]

  that's what I think you thought it was [TS]

  yeah I thought it was some designer many [TS]

  people point out to me after the show [TS]

  that the quote i was calling about [TS]

  simple as possible but not simpler was [TS]

  not a designer of apparently it's [TS]

  attributed to albert einstein and look [TS]

  this up on Wikipedia or not we could be [TS]

  there wikiquote sorry sorry and the [TS]

  actual quote as is often the case the [TS]

  actual supposed quote that led to the [TS]

  thing I was quoting his much more [TS]

  complicated and much more [TS]

  albert einstein and I guess here is it [TS]

  can scarcely be denied the supreme goal [TS]

  of all theories to make the irreducible [TS]

  basic elements as simple and as few as [TS]

  possible without having to surrender the [TS]

  adequate representation of a single [TS]

  datum of experience that does not roll [TS]

  off the tongue like it's more possible [TS]

  and no simply write this was brought [TS]

  this is from on the method of [TS]

  theoretical physics the herbert spencer [TS]

  lecture delivered oxford intense 1933 [TS]

  alright so that is a real thing that he [TS]

  said that was recorded that sounds a lot [TS]

  do you know if you if you simplify the [TS]

  sense it is much like what i said and [TS]

  then the quote investigator com story [TS]

  talks about how the quote attributed [TS]

  Einstein may have arisen from that and [TS]

  the variant is everything should be made [TS]

  as simple as possible no simpler and so [TS]

  on and so forth so we'll put all these [TS]

  links in like all these kind of quotes [TS]

  that you've heard attributed to a [TS]

  particular person it's hard to know [TS]

  where they actually came from but the [TS]

  sentiment rings true with enough people [TS]

  that this quote in this idea survives [TS]

  despite it's a cloudy origins [TS]

  alright so tell me about photos crop in [TS]

  aspect behavior series so a lot of my [TS]

  complaints were focusing on the photos [TS]

  application which i use a lot in which I [TS]

  still do like but their frustrations [TS]

  with the Apple product design in with [TS]

  using photos as an example and one of [TS]

  one of my major complaint was about [TS]

  dealing with the cropping photos and [TS]

  reconstructing their aspect ratio and [TS]

  stuff and couple people have some [TS]

  suggestions to make that easier inside [TS]

  the application one of them is the [TS]

  keyboard shortcut which if you hold down [TS]

  the shift key you can constrain the [TS]

  proportion to the original proportions [TS]

  circuit with that is you have to hold [TS]

  down the shift key before you begin the [TS]

  drag unlike a lot of other operations [TS]

  and like graphics applications or you [TS]

  know that you may be familiar with where [TS]

  you start save dragging a selection [TS]

  outline and photoshop and if you hit the [TS]

  various modifiers to constrain it you [TS]

  can switch those modifiers in the middle [TS]

  of the drag with this you have to be [TS]

  holding down shift before you begin the [TS]

  dragon you begin a drag than nothing to [TS]

  shift makes any difference so that's [TS]

  going to know and there was a theory [TS]

  that nobody offered in the feedback that [TS]

  were totally expected to get and [TS]

  literally nobody sent a lot of people [TS]

  selling various keyboard shortcuts but [TS]

  nobody sent this idea and it is a reason [TS]

  to try to explain why photos every time [TS]

  you go to edit an image and the crop [TS]

  thing you have to have the aspect menu [TS]

  and select original even though it's [TS]

  what I want every single time you know [TS]

  setting aside the keyboard shortcuts [TS]

  forever [TS]

  why does it not remember that every time [TS]

  I go to crop I want the aspect to be the [TS]

  original right why is it just not [TS]

  remember like the last thing I used or [TS]

  have a preference or something you know [TS]

  you don't even need a perfect setting [TS]

  just basically when i change that pop-up [TS]

  menu leave it that way until I change it [TS]

  again and my theory if I had to have [TS]

  someone explain that default aside from [TS]

  them possibly just saying oh we never [TS]

  got around to making that sticky would [TS]

  be that if you remember the last setting [TS]

  used in applications trying to be as [TS]

  simple as fotos is someone go in there [TS]

  and for you know how to make a square [TS]

  photo or something so they would you [TS]

  know figured find the little aspect [TS]

  things like Square and resize their [TS]

  photo and crop it and be done and then [TS]

  three days later come back and go to [TS]

  crop a photo and just try dragging the [TS]

  little outline and have it all the Sun [TS]

  snap to a square and they wouldn't [TS]

  understand why is it why does it keep [TS]

  snapping to ask where I don't want it to [TS]

  be a square or you know or whatever [TS]

  thing i wanted i want to do freeform [TS]

  cropping here was and they won't [TS]

  remember that like the settings don't [TS]

  think it's broken or someone different [TS]

  will come to the program and not realize [TS]

  that it is remembering last thing so [TS]

  resetting from zero every single time [TS]

  gives what they think is the sensible [TS]

  defaults for everybody which is [TS]

  unconstrained which I don't know that [TS]

  sensible default but in theory you could [TS]

  argue that by remembering the last thing [TS]

  you picked is making the application [TS]

  appear broken to future people who may [TS]

  not know about the aspect menu or even [TS]

  someone who picked it from the item last [TS]

  time do I don't think that's a good [TS]

  reason to do it an application like [TS]

  photos because i think that is not as [TS]

  common as like I think you'll be [TS]

  gearing the application to novices too [TS]

  much and that you should be realized [TS]

  that everyone starts off as a novice but [TS]

  if you use photos to your after year [TS]

  after year eventually you will learn a [TS]

  thing or two and become it's not an [TS]

  expert at least proficient user and I [TS]

  constant annoyance of having to pick [TS]

  that are having to hold down the shift [TS]

  here having to do whatever overwhelms [TS]

  it's of my opinion is still the same but [TS]

  if I had to make the counter argument [TS]

  against my opinion try to explain the [TS]

  behavior of photos as it exists that's [TS]

  one explanation and the other [TS]

  explanation a lot of people get which i [TS]

  think is not an explanation all i think [TS]

  is obvious but we should have pointed [TS]

  out in the past so is that part of the [TS]

  simplification of these various mac [TS]

  applications is to make them look and [TS]

  work more like their iOS counterparts I [TS]

  was counterparts obviously have to be [TS]

  more simple necessarily because they [TS]

  have to work on a phone screen in many [TS]

  cases obviously you can't have giant [TS]

  toolbar buttons you just have room for [TS]

  anything you have to simplify right but [TS]

  on the mac the whole point of that [TS]

  discussion wasn't on the macbook same [TS]

  constraints don't hold so for the sake [TS]

  of uniformity trying to say we just make [TS]

  it look and work the same in both things [TS]

  then you just not treating the mac the [TS]

  way it should be treated it should be [TS]

  the advantage of the mac platform should [TS]

  be realized in the applications that run [TS]

  them they should it shouldn't be [TS]

  constrained to the lowest common [TS]

  denominator is defined by phone or [TS]

  whatever but also like you know just in [TS]

  the same way that like it was the best [TS]

  thing for the phone and for the ipad to [TS]

  not just have mac OS like shoved onto [TS]

  them and and just pour it onto them [TS]

  straight in that same way having iOS [TS]

  things just shuts down to the mac is not [TS]

  appropriate for the mac and we can look [TS]

  at the last you know what five years of [TS]

  Western releases like basically since [TS]

  lion as they have attempted to to shove [TS]

  iOS things onto the mac and most of the [TS]

  time it really flops it or it's just bad [TS]

  I or at best mediocre there's a whole [TS]

  bunch of like the iOS application of [TS]

  magnitude been tempted and it just it [TS]

  just lands flat it just doesn't doesn't [TS]

  feel right on the Mac just in the same [TS]

  way that the mac you I wouldn't feel [TS]

  right on the phone that I think the [TS]

  worst one is where they they decided [TS]

  they have to have down like maybe not [TS]

  down to the pixel but basically the same [TS]

  glyphs the same icons the same sort of [TS]

  menus like when I see a mac application [TS]

  with like basically in ios7 style button [TS]

  that is really just plain text like that [TS]

  language doesn't [TS]

  doesn't fit in the back because the rest [TS]

  of the Mac isn't like that most Matt [TS]

  Capps and i like that on the mac buttons [TS]

  have little outlines and stuff they look [TS]

  like little capsules blah blah you know [TS]

  there is a design language for the [TS]

  controls and experience on the market is [TS]

  different from the phone and so on an [TS]

  application lands on the mac setting [TS]

  aside the functionality and how many [TS]

  things are hidden away or if it's [TS]

  designed her phone screen they'll just [TS]

  change the surface part of it to look [TS]

  when act weird and it doesn't fit in and [TS]

  so the photo suffers from all that it's [TS]

  massively simplified lots of stuff is [TS]

  hidden many things are constrained like [TS]

  a little pop-up thing with the sharing [TS]

  that we talked about this just way too [TS]

  small for no reason that the icons or [TS]

  sometimes identical to the ones on the [TS]

  phone and I think they're trying to make [TS]

  a family resemblance but they haven't [TS]

  the there has never been in ios7 style [TS]

  revolution in the mac you I Yosemite was [TS]

  as close as they came with flat and [TS]

  stuff out and took away a lot of the [TS]

  gloss and everything but it is by no [TS]

  means like iOS 7 was on the phone and [TS]

  the ipad where it radically changed the [TS]

  the look and feel and the way you design [TS]

  applications right before we get our [TS]

  photos one last item is a lot of people [TS]

  suggested keyboard shortcuts i know a [TS]

  lot of these I looked him up and help [TS]

  someone so forth [TS]

  one of the issues that I've complained [TS]

  about the past that I should have [TS]

  emphasized last time as well is that [TS]

  photos likes to ignore my keystrokes not [TS]

  all of them most of the time the [TS]

  keystrokes land but if I had a penny for [TS]

  every time I hit the spacebar nothing [TS]

  happened in photos i would have be able [TS]

  to buy a nice meal because it like and [TS]

  so the same thing for like rotating or [TS]

  you know hitting enter to edit or you [TS]

  know command keys usually have a higher [TS]

  percentage like man harder to rotate [TS]

  bird seed crop and stuff like that but I [TS]

  don't know where those keystrokes go [TS]

  I know if there's a responder chain [TS]

  thing falling down and it's not like [TS]

  it's just like super mightily delayed [TS]

  and I get impatient and hit again [TS]

  sometimes I will just say you know what [TS]

  I'm not going to do it again maybe did [TS]

  register just wait and Eleni after 10 [TS]

  seconds you like note that space bar [TS]

  just went into the ether so yeah [TS]

  keyboard shortcuts are not personally [TS]

  not a solution for most people using the [TS]

  application because most people never [TS]

  going to memorize those keyboard [TS]

  shortcuts but even for me know some of [TS]

  them the keyboard shortcuts become [TS]

  unreliable as well every time i get i do [TS]

  you know a drop aspect original with the [TS]

  mouse cursor it works every time [TS]

  it's just tedious that's why I end up [TS]

  doing repeatedly rather [TS]

  the temperature of the keystrokes if i [TS]

  do the keystrokes and wait for a [TS]

  three-count another happens then I end [TS]

  up going to the mouse anyway right [TS]

  somebody has sent to us and I've [TS]

  apologized because I don't know who sent [TS]

  this in [TS]

  but somebody sent us a bluetooth [TS]

  headphone dongle concept which was done [TS]

  by sean nelson this is on partly Sean [TS]

  dot-com and I'm glad that one of you put [TS]

  this in the show notes because I meant [TS]

  to and I completely forgot this is [TS]

  actually a really interesting idea so [TS]

  the the general premise here is hey if [TS]

  the iphone 7 really does give up the the [TS]

  headphone jack [TS]

  then what would Apple do to kind of [TS]

  bridge the gap between the the phone not [TS]

  having a headphone jack and all of us [TS]

  having these for these headphones that [TS]

  are probably not bluetooth and so this [TS]

  shawn nelson person did a prototype a [TS]

  concept of hey here's how Apple could [TS]

  fix us what it is is a circular park [TS]

  that has a headphone port like you would [TS]

  find on the iphone success on one side a [TS]

  lightning port on the other for charging [TS]

  and it will convert any headphones into [TS]

  bluetooth headphones it doesn't appear [TS]

  to have any buttons as far as i can tell [TS]

  it does have a little clip on it so you [TS]

  can clip it to your clothes [TS]

  this is a really really clever idea and [TS]

  I really think that this is a pretty [TS]

  good way to bridge that gap but what did [TS]

  you guys think about it so it's [TS]

  interesting that it takes the idea take [TS]

  the approach of you know putting it on [TS]

  the phone end of the cable and basically [TS]

  you plug your headphones into this and [TS]

  they still have their flow cables as we [TS]

  discussed as I brought up a couple weeks [TS]

  ago [TS]

  you can't really put on the headphone [TS]

  end of the cable because there really is [TS]

  no standard size or shape cable that [TS]

  would fit a large number of headphones [TS]

  that would go on that end because they [TS]

  all have just these different shape [TS]

  plastic surround and everything so [TS]

  anyway it is smart to put it on that [TS]

  into the cable I will also say that [TS]

  these devices already exists you can you [TS]

  can go on Amazon you can get things [TS]

  because not that would be small [TS]

  unattractive and would have apple logos [TS]

  on it or we charge by lightning [TS]

  those are those will be new here but you [TS]

  can get these things already like you [TS]

  can go and get him for probably 30 bucks [TS]

  you can you can get devices that [TS]

  left any end of any audio setup to and [TS]

  from bluetooth they're very common and [TS]

  some of them even work so it it's not it [TS]

  is a weekend we can try this today we [TS]

  can see we're already what this is like [TS]

  today as long as you don't need to [TS]

  charge by lightning [TS]

  it is a good idea for the most part [TS]

  however first of all having a cable that [TS]

  dangles into your clothing but that [TS]

  doesn't look into your phone like its it [TS]

  kind of seems like another really worth [TS]

  having that cable it seems kind of [TS]

  clunky but i don't know i mean i-i [TS]

  suppose it's better than having to buy [TS]

  all new headphones but I don't know it [TS]

  seems like a lot of complexity to solve [TS]

  this problem if you're going to have a [TS]

  wire that goes down into your clothing [TS]

  and comes out of your headphones [TS]

  why not just have a a wiring adapter [TS]

  that can plug directly into the alleged [TS]

  lightning port that is headphone [TS]

  compatible of the alleged new headphone [TS]

  jack atlas iphone 7 you covered all the [TS]

  ones i was gonna make which is that [TS]

  these things exist already and that it's [TS]

  weird to have a wire where you put the [TS]

  wire like especially if you have your [TS]

  phone in your pocket and then this wire [TS]

  with a dongle is also in your pocket [TS]

  there like right you have this wire to [TS]

  nothing right you have to put it [TS]

  somewhere and you know you're gonna have [TS]

  a dining hanging from your swinging back [TS]

  and forth as you walk so you'll probably [TS]

  stick it in the pocket but the reason I [TS]

  can think of why I Apple might find a [TS]

  solution attractive is that the wired [TS]

  after keeping a one-way one-way is that [TS]

  if the passive lightning to headphone [TS]

  adapter that we've been surmising might [TS]

  be possible is not possible then this is [TS]

  probably better than trying to make an [TS]

  adapter with a chip in it like try to [TS]

  make an appt reactive adapter it's more [TS]

  a polite than trying to make an active [TS]

  adapter probably but even if the passive [TS]

  thing does work the passive thing I [TS]

  don't know if you can sell the passive [TS]

  thing for thirty bucks maybe Apple can't [TS]

  but what is Apple can sell this for [TS]

  money that this little battery bluetooth [TS]

  container thing it's what Apple is good [TS]

  at making very small simple things that [TS]

  don't really have like an on/off switch [TS]

  or any complicated you know but inside [TS]

  are very very precise and it uses all [TS]

  their expertise in terms of making very [TS]

  small chips and batteries and all that [TS]

  good stuff and they can sell to you for [TS]

  money [TS]

  and it does seem like a little more [TS]

  elegant solution because then your your [TS]

  phone could be in one pocket this [TS]

  community out there and they're not [TS]

  connected to each other [TS]

  I can see them selling it as a more [TS]

  advanced version of a wiring adapter so [TS]

  and this design looks like every time [TS]

  you see like a prototype of looks like [TS]

  the little watch it after basically a [TS]

  little circular thing we can have a logo [TS]

  on it a little think they'll put a giant [TS]

  Apple look like that on it but who knows [TS]

  it looks like an apple product looks [TS]

  like an apple product they could sell as [TS]

  ridiculous as it may be especially like [TS]

  put a clip on the back of it like this [TS]

  guy's got a clip to his pants waist band [TS]

  or something that is not a good look [TS]

  well i don't know i think it means it [TS]

  any worse than clipping an ipod shuffle [TS]

  on anyway [TS]

  yes it looks plausible to me as an apple [TS]

  project i think they can sell it for [TS]

  more money so especially if they can't [TS]

  do a passive adapter i think this is a [TS]

  reasonable option the battle might want [TS]

  to consider and as you pointed out if [TS]

  apple doesn't do it is a million third [TS]

  party ones that are already making it [TS]

  they're going to be excited by an iphone [TS]

  with no headphone jacks right now we [TS]

  have a new audience to advertise to hey [TS]

  just get one of those new phones by our [TS]

  little square dongle we've been selling [TS]

  for five years yet another thing you [TS]

  gotta charge and spend 30 books and now [TS]

  charges through the charges through [TS]

  lighting [TS]

  yeah I don't know it's that it seems [TS]

  like this is too clunky of a solution [TS]

  like I I feel like Apple solutions are [TS]

  going to be either by new headphones or [TS]

  use this passive wire adapter and you're [TS]

  sure that the path of our adapter is [TS]

  going to be possible [TS]

  no I mean but if that rumor so it was [TS]

  true that they were going to have this [TS]

  thing it's already possible today if you [TS]

  put some smarts in the adapter you can [TS]

  do it on today's lightning port with [TS]

  some circuitry and some smarts there so [TS]

  we already know such thing as possible [TS]

  it would be better if it could be [TS]

  passive and if the phone could sense it [TS]

  through a new revision of the port and i [TS]

  agree but i'm just i'm not sure i'm not [TS]

  sure how Apple would prioritize that [TS]

  like it's really important to make sure [TS]

  we can have passive adapters or just [TS]

  going to say you know just deal with it [TS]

  and getting headphones everybody get new [TS]

  headphones in three years you don't care [TS]

  anymore [TS]

  yes so when we go in tailgate which [TS]

  we've spoken about on the show in the [TS]

  past I have a TK boom box which is [TS]

  actually the model for this [TS]

  speaker thing and it doesn't have any [TS]

  bluetooth support on it and so years ago [TS]

  i got this absolutely terrible like $13 [TS]

  blue to AGP tech bluetooth adapter i'll [TS]

  put a link in the show notes even though [TS]

  i don't think it's available anymore [TS]

  it is a total piece of crap but it works [TS]

  perfectly and so it's like the build [TS]

  quality is terrible it's very chancy [TS]

  looking so think of like a USB key that [TS]

  has a headphone jack on the outside of [TS]

  it and no plugs into a USB on the other [TS]

  side so what i do is i plug this into a [TS]

  USB port that is on the speaker on this [TS]

  TK boombox and this receives bluetooth [TS]

  and then i plug the this little [TS]

  headphone cable from this bluetooth to [TS]

  RCA converter basically into the [TS]

  headphone cable goes from there to the [TS]

  boombox and suddenly this boom box that [TS]

  has no bluetooth support has bluetooth [TS]

  supports this is the other direction [TS]

  then what we're talking about but to [TS]

  your point earlier Marco you can go [TS]

  either way with this and it was $13 and [TS]

  I mean it is a piece of crap that's been [TS]

  working perfectly for three years so I [TS]

  guess is it really that crappy ask hall [TS]

  but yeah it works well in and so you [TS]

  you'd be surprised what you can do for [TS]

  not a lot of money [TS]

  it's like I was invisible fences for [TS]

  your pets on this is invisible wire some [TS]

  of the Prancing like like we're saying [TS]

  that like what's the point of having a [TS]

  little wire with a dongle that you stick [TS]

  in your pocket clip on your pants like [TS]

  three inches away from your phone is [TS]

  like there are still some advantages for [TS]

  that absurd scenario mostly is that like [TS]

  when you want to take out your phone and [TS]

  do something there's not a wire attached [TS]

  to it i mean i guess probably people are [TS]

  you know we used to listening on wired [TS]

  headphones are good at taking out their [TS]

  phone to send a quick text or see [TS]

  something or whatever without wrangling [TS]

  the wire but it is i think i keep [TS]

  thinking of it as a as a luxurious [TS]

  features like that the fact that the two [TS]

  are connected anymore they are now [TS]

  connected with an invisible wire even [TS]

  though there's a stupid real wire still [TS]

  in play because again you're using your [TS]

  old headphones and they don't support [TS]

  this new phone it is still a slightly [TS]

  more luxurious experience to be able to [TS]

  take out your phone without a wire [TS]

  attached [TS]

  do it invisible wires are better than [TS]

  wires in general manager you can get [TS]

  other wires entirely which I'm apple [TS]

  will surely sell your blues headphones [TS]

  to do that but if you can't because you [TS]

  want to use your old headphones for [TS]

  whatever reason a dongle like this as [TS]

  ridiculous as it seems i think it does [TS]

  actually have offer some material [TS]

  advantages to the point where i'm [TS]

  thinking like maybe i would go is my big [TS]

  problem is like when I'm walking from [TS]

  the parking garage to work very often my [TS]

  headphone cord gets caught him like a [TS]

  door handle going through like the [TS]

  garage doors are up in the stairwells at [TS]

  work or whatever and ends up yanking the [TS]

  headphones either out of my ears are out [TS]

  of my phone or both [TS]

  I would like it if i could i mean [TS]

  obviously my solutions just use [TS]

  bluetooth headphones right yeah just use [TS]

  bluetooth headphones yeah I i use [TS]

  earbuds that I don't want to look like a [TS]

  girl with the big thing coming out of my [TS]

  ear with that anyway they have smaller [TS]

  things that you look get the sennheiser [TS]

  and I'm 400ex it is really basic it's [TS]

  like 750 bucks as their buds it's not [TS]

  everybody know it's it's it's the it's [TS]

  the ones [TS]

  it's the new version I i use for my for [TS]

  any kind of walking and often even [TS]

  travel purposes i bring my the president [TS]

  which is the sennheiser PX 2 10 BTW [TS]

  which is long since discontinued but the [TS]

  40mm 400ex is seemingly the exact same [TS]

  thing but with a microphone and so you [TS]

  can make phone calls on it and these [TS]

  sound like complete garbage for music [TS]

  purposes but for podcasts they're great [TS]

  because they have actual hardware [TS]

  buttons on the side so there is so [TS]

  they're small they fold up they can fit [TS]

  in any large jacket pocket and any bag [TS]

  very very easily not a pants pocket too [TS]

  big for that but there otherwise they're [TS]

  great battery life is great they charge [TS]

  for a microUSB you can get new batteries [TS]

  for them if you want to like separate [TS]

  batteries and it did they have these [TS]

  amazingly useful buttons actual buttons [TS]

  like not just like a capacitive touch [TS]

  pad which is infuriating not some little [TS]

  tiny switches you can operate them with [TS]

  gloves on in the winter because the [TS]

  buttons are nice and big and they make [TS]

  sense where they are [TS]

  it's i listen to sai listen to these [TS]

  exclusively when I'm when I'm walking [TS]

  with my uncle always listen to podcast [TS]

  of it [TS]

  some call it doesn't matter and they are [TS]

  so much better than anything else I've [TS]

  ever tried for for portable podcast [TS]

  listening [TS]

  I like my earbuds with my little clicker [TS]

  on the wire that's another where the [TS]

  clicker go if I didn't have a wire like [TS]

  I'm goes to the earcup I just know I [TS]

  like to clear clear [TS]

  going down where it is anyway the point [TS]

  is i think i would actually find this [TS]

  thing [TS]

  vaguely useful if it existed so much so [TS]

  that maybe i should just buy one of [TS]

  those ones is already an amazon and give [TS]

  it a try but maybe I'll just hold out to [TS]

  see if Apple because one for twenty [TS]

  bucks will have a bluetooth earbuds and [TS]

  maybe that will solve my problems if [TS]

  you'd like to not spend two hundred [TS]

  dollars on a set up bluetooth headphones [TS]

  my beloved Arctic PP 311 that I've had [TS]

  for like four years are still going [TS]

  strong i use them for music i use them [TS]

  for podcast they will not make Marco [TS]

  happy I'm sure from an audio files [TS]

  perspective they are terrible but if you [TS]

  don't have hyper-intense requirements if [TS]

  you're not mark warm and they're like 30 [TS]

  bucks and might have been going strong [TS]

  for years now that i think about it [TS]

  bluetooth earbuds wouldn't help because [TS]

  again wherever the clicker be I really [TS]

  got new so I think the ipod shuffle [TS]

  killed me that bottle water cup know [TS]

  that my Chapel didn't is not your [TS]

  company or bugs are ya use mine with the [TS]

  buttons are right there it's it's even [TS]

  it's easier and more reliable than using [TS]

  the clicker headphones us too much i [TS]

  can't i don't know i can't pull that off [TS]

  but it is too much to have big giant [TS]

  headphones on as big as you think [TS]

  try the p3 11 when they also have the [TS]

  buttons already 30 just saying anyway [TS]

  point is this is this is this concept i [TS]

  think it's not entirely really rude and [TS]

  of apple doesn't make one maybe I'll buy [TS]

  one and give it a try [TS]

  hey we should talk about bagels [TS]

  Squarespace responsible people [TS]

  Squarespace start building your website [TS]

  today at squarespace.com enter offer [TS]

  code ATP at checkout to get ten percent [TS]

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  everything x total sense you just edit [TS]

  right there in the page as you're [TS]

  looking at it and everything shows up [TS]

  previews everything live right there as [TS]

  you edit it you can change colors and [TS]

  fonts and blocks and layout and [TS]

  everything all with a simple easy-to-use [TS]

  interface [TS]

  although if you want to get down into [TS]

  the code and everything you can do that [TS]

  too [TS]

  they have both injectable CSS and [TS]

  JavaScript as well as a whole developer [TS]

  platform if you want to go really deep [TS]

  into it you get a free domain name if [TS]

  you sign up for a whole year up front [TS]

  this is really a very powerful platform [TS]

  they have over there Squarespace [TS]

  tons of people trusted millions of [TS]

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  website hosting because they host [TS]

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  they support everything for you they [TS]

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  manage some installation of a CMS on [TS]

  your own servers or anything like that [TS]

  they manage it all for you [TS]

  they have great support if you need it [TS]

  there's people answering email all the [TS]

  time from all these different locations [TS]

  around the world they have amazing [TS]

  support if you need it all this is [TS]

  available right now today at [TS]

  squarespace.com if you go there today [TS]

  make sure to use the offer code ATP to [TS]

  get ten percent off your first purchase [TS]

  Squarespace build a beautiful so I've [TS]

  had a big week so far [TS]

  yes so tell us about this what what [TS]

  exactly happened in your own words Casey [TS]

  described for the audience what happened [TS]

  i'm so yeah so this past monday i [TS]

  started a new job i took last week [TS]

  almost entirely off i had a week of [TS]

  self-directed funemployment i went into [TS]

  my old job on monday for a few hours [TS]

  spent the remainder of last week just [TS]

  kind of relaxing and taking a break and [TS]

  then on monday i started a new job as an [TS]

  iOS developer which is completely scary [TS]

  and completely awesome to recap in case [TS]

  you're unfamiliar with my professional [TS]

  exploits I had been working at a [TS]

  consulting firm doing got that stuff for [TS]

  between three and a half years and in [TS]

  four years and I did like it but my [TS]

  heart wasn't really in not anymore i [TS]

  really do love c-sharp hand on heart i [TS]

  love c-sharp I think csharp is great i [TS]

  really do love visual studio I think [TS]

  visual studio is great but everything [TS]

  around hat i just couldn't care less [TS]

  like it just didn't do anything for me [TS]

  and when i was hired at this look at [TS]

  this job i was told hey you know you're [TS]

  gonna be our iOS guy and I was the iOS [TS]

  guy which is good but the problem was we [TS]

  only ever landed one bit of iOS work and [TS]

  as when it's a consulting firm you don't [TS]

  typically have the luxury of working on [TS]

  what you want to work on you work on [TS]

  what you're told to work on [TS]

  and that means a client will tell the [TS]

  company we will give you money to work [TS]

  on this thing and the company tells the [TS]

  consultants you know to the company my [TS]

  company tells us [TS]

  ok it's time to work on this thing and [TS]

  it just so happened that the only time i [TS]

  ever did and iOS app was several years [TS]

  ago when I didn't ipad app and it was [TS]

  for all the wrong reasons and executive [TS]

  decided we should be in the app store [TS]

  even though this we don't really have [TS]

  anything useful to offer and so we built [TS]

  an app to put in the app store anyway so [TS]

  I had been I hadn't been unhappy [TS]

  necessarily but I had been terribly [TS]

  happy and I just was trying to figure [TS]

  out you know what I do and it's hard [TS]

  especially when you're consulting but [TS]

  it's hard in general I mean I kinda know [TS]

  how to write code for iOS UI I know [TS]

  objective-c reasonably well for someone [TS]

  who doesn't do it professionally I sort [TS]

  of kind of ish no Swift hey so it's a [TS]

  hard thing to sell any employer on [TS]

  teaching you how to do this stuff on the [TS]

  job unless the employers for some reason [TS]

  incentivized for you to learn this on [TS]

  the job so for example if if my [TS]

  consulting firm had gotten a contract to [TS]

  iOS work and suddenly my employer that [TS]

  the consultancy will be hugely [TS]

  incentivize for me to learn on the job [TS]

  but it's pretty hard for them to sell me [TS]

  as a supposed expert when I'm not really [TS]

  an expert and typically when you're [TS]

  going to a consulting firm you're [TS]

  looking for experts so it wasn't it was [TS]

  clear to me that was really a workout if [TS]

  I really really really wanted to pivot [TS]

  to iOS it was good work at the [TS]

  consulting firm and so a friend of mine [TS]

  a mutual friend between mark and I [TS]

  friend named Jamie he had just gone to a [TS]

  local company here in town that their [TS]

  bread and butter is not iOS but they [TS]

  have their own iOS app that is part of [TS]

  their product offering and he had been [TS]

  saying hey you should come join me to [TS]

  come join me to come join me and finally [TS]

  I was like you know what I should come [TS]

  join you and so I interviewed and I got [TS]

  the job I was very plain about what I do [TS]

  not know about iOS but what school was [TS]

  great about my new gig is they [TS]

  recognized [TS]

  stay you seem like you're pretty darn [TS]

  good engineer one of our engineers are [TS]

  saying you're a pretty good engineer [TS]

  sorry doctoring and so we have faith [TS]

  that whatever you don't know you can [TS]

  pick up so let's do this and I started [TS]

  this past Monday and I'm really gotten [TS]

  into too much code yet but so far so [TS]

  good and it is blowing my mind that the [TS]

  things that we talked about here and the [TS]

  things that I've been pumping into my [TS]

  ears by way of Marcos other show and by [TS]

  way of yellow corn tuition in by way of [TS]

  mobile couch and in so many of these [TS]

  other shows [TS]

  suddenly this stuff that I've just long [TS]

  to do [TS]

  I'm now doing and its really really [TS]

  exciting and I'm petrified because I'm [TS]

  used to it also pretty darn good on a [TS]

  developer not the best but pretty darn [TS]

  good and I wasn't often scared by the [TS]

  things i was asked to do in my [TS]

  day-to-day job and now i am not a pretty [TS]

  darn good iOS developer i'm i'm at worst [TS]

  a rocky and it best in intermediate [TS]

  level iOS developer and so I'm reaching [TS]

  on this and then that's really really [TS]

  scary but i found that that's the best [TS]

  way to force myself to learn is to go [TS]

  straight into the deep end and just [TS]

  learn how to swim so I'm excited I'm [TS]

  excited just selfishly because this is [TS]

  what I've been wanting to do for a long [TS]

  time i'm excited for the show because i [TS]

  think even though we don't get that deep [TS]

  into the developer topics that often [TS]

  it'll be nice to have someone else who [TS]

  does this sort of thing for a living [TS]

  other the marco and I'm just excited to [TS]

  learn something new because I've been [TS]

  doing the same stuff for a long time and [TS]

  last really new thing i learned if you [TS]

  don't count sum react that I was [TS]

  dabbling with maybe a year ago was when [TS]

  i taught myself node for for my blog and [TS]

  that was in 2014 so it's about time for [TS]

  me to to get scared and learn something [TS]

  new so i don't know if you guys have any [TS]

  questions about that if not we can put [TS]

  in the parking lot [TS]

  don't have my first question David [TS]

  parking lot [TS]

  I've not seen one yet I have not seen [TS]

  yet but I'm sure it's there [TS]

  anyway but if you have any questions I'm [TS]

  happy to feel them otherwise we can just [TS]

  move right along to talk about the tech [TS]

  differences of like c-sharp vs [TS]

  objective-c and you know the different [TS]

  ID and all that stuff whatever but [TS]

  setting that aside like getting back to [TS]

  the doing consulting work versus doing a [TS]

  product [TS]

  no I think you covered this in your blog [TS]

  post like the idea of the consulting [TS]

  work is sometimes you get a crappy job [TS]

  but the job ends and sometimes you get a [TS]

  good job that job ends too but with [TS]

  product work I imagine you know without [TS]

  going into details of what kind of [TS]

  product you're making your kind of [TS]

  company you're working for [TS]

  it's conceivable that you could get to [TS]

  be in iOS developer dedicated to working [TS]

  on a product that does nothing for you [TS]

  the product is like dominoes developer [TS]

  and i'm working on a product but I don't [TS]

  care about this product at all i don't [TS]

  have any passion for this product [TS]

  I don't you know and the customers who [TS]

  use this product not really into the [TS]

  product and then how could I do my job [TS]

  never gonna really appreciate it because [TS]

  it's like you know an industrial machine [TS]

  control thing or something where it's [TS]

  just not you know I mean and that case [TS]

  you would be using new technology you'll [TS]

  be learning things you could technically [TS]

  be an iOS developer but i'm thinking [TS]

  it's like imagine if like your worst [TS]

  consulting gig just never end never [TS]

  ended so is as part of your decision to [TS]

  go to the specific company the idea that [TS]

  would like would you care what the [TS]

  practice really like is it isn't just [TS]

  better that it is a product that you can [TS]

  like work on incremental make better [TS]

  year over year over year even if it's [TS]

  boring product or do you also kinda [TS]

  needed to be a product that interests [TS]

  you more than like you're at least [TS]

  interesting consulting gig you know it's [TS]

  a very fair question i think i have to [TS]

  reach back just a half step and explain [TS]

  that I've been doing some flavor of [TS]

  consulting since roughly 2006 it's been [TS]

  about a decade now the first couple [TS]

  years from 06 28 i was doing government [TS]

  contracting which is not exactly [TS]

  consulting i was working for a company [TS]

  that had a product but the only [TS]

  literally the only people that bought [TS]

  that product was the US government so [TS]

  really what ended up happening was the [TS]

  government said hey we want this new [TS]

  feature and we said okay we'll do that [TS]

  and so is basically consulting after [TS]

  that it was just a regular no no aster [TS]

  risks honest business consultants and [TS]

  from my weight on and i found that there [TS]

  have definitely been some projects where [TS]

  the client was awesome and the project [TS]

  was a lot of fun and eventually what [TS]

  ends up happening is as you described [TS]

  John the client either can stand on [TS]

  their own two feet so to speak or they [TS]

  feel like that that product is complete [TS]

  enough for now and then they say alright [TS]

  thanks for your time we'll see you later [TS]

  and that's a total bummer because here's [TS]

  something that you really invested in [TS]

  the kind of consulting i was doing i [TS]

  should also note is typically [TS]

  project-based so it was myself in a [TS]

  bunch of my co-workers at the consulting [TS]

  firm would swoop in do a project and [TS]

  swooped out it and of course we would be [TS]

  working alongside the client but the [TS]

  overwhelming majority of the work was [TS]

  done by the people at my consulting firm [TS]

  it's not like your individual [TS]

  consultants who is just an individual [TS]

  contributor it's and this is where the [TS]

  staff of thing came in a couple months [TS]

  back and so typically the project is [TS]

  consulting you know you build this [TS]

  project with you people with your [TS]

  friends at work and then it's like okay [TS]

  thanks and then you leave and that's a [TS]

  total bummer [TS]

  and even though it's nice to know that [TS]

  you have it that that each project is in [TS]

  subject to some degree a ticking time [TS]

  bomb because eventually it will go away [TS]

  both the good and the bad [TS]

  it's nice to think about I i really [TS]

  wanted to try walking on the grass on [TS]

  the other side of the fence and I wanted [TS]

  to see is is a product company really [TS]

  what I wanted and really what I want and [TS]

  let me give you a really weird the [TS]

  concrete example of why I wanted this so [TS]

  i believe it's my first day it was my [TS]

  first day that the new job and we [TS]

  actually had this like all hands meeting [TS]

  off site which was just pure completely [TS]

  coincidental and so we were in a [TS]

  different portion of richmond at this [TS]

  all hands and then we needed to come [TS]

  back to the office afterwards and we [TS]

  were traveling from the All Hands i was [TS]

  at a hotel to the office and I got stop [TS]

  this Lite that typically will take two [TS]

  or three cycles for me to get through [TS]

  with this [TS]

  particular time of day was around [TS]

  lunchtime and this is right by a bunch [TS]

  of other business right by a bunch of [TS]

  businesses and a bunch of eateries so [TS]

  everyone's going to or coming back from [TS]

  lunch and as I'm sitting at this light [TS]

  I'm thinking to myself oh my god this is [TS]

  taking so long i got this taking so long [TS]

  i have to make up this time because oh [TS]

  god I'm sitting here for like 10 minutes [TS]

  and it's one thing if you set it alight [TS]

  for like a minute you can just kind of [TS]

  flubbed that and you know whatever a [TS]

  client is going to care if you build [TS]

  them for one minute where you weren't [TS]

  actually doing work [TS]

  this is like 10 minutes and i'm really I [TS]

  can't build a client for this 10 minutes [TS]

  and so I'm now I have to stay at work 10 [TS]

  minutes later than I plant a wait wait [TS]

  don't have a timesheet anymore but not [TS]

  working for a client anymore [TS]

  oh my god i don't have to give a shit [TS]

  this takes an hour because i don't have [TS]

  to answer to anyone anymore what not [TS]

  literally of course we don't mean this [TS]

  is magnificent and it's just stupid [TS]

  stuff like that [TS]

  I'm just kind of I was ready to take a [TS]

  break from consulting and who knows [TS]

  maybe in a year or two maybe I'll 1099 [TS]

  and i'll just go in if you're not an [TS]

  American basically i'll be an [TS]

  independent consultant and maybe i'll go [TS]

  back to a consulting firm who knows but [TS]

  for right now all my god it was magical [TS]

  not to have to stress about sitting in a [TS]

  stupid light for 10 minutes and to come [TS]

  back around to Jon's question a little [TS]

  more concretely i'm really really amped [TS]

  to work on a product period but i agree [TS]

  with you John that if the product was [TS]

  something like industrial control system [TS]

  it was not likely to keep my attention [TS]

  very long [TS]

  now with that said I I don't intend to [TS]

  share what my employer who my employer [TS]

  is more what I'm working on [TS]

  I don't know it's just I'd prefer to [TS]

  keep that that world separate but i will [TS]

  say that the particular thing that I'm [TS]

  working on [TS]

  although it is not for me it is for a [TS]

  general audience and depending on what [TS]

  lens you use to look at it I genuinely [TS]

  think it's it's helping people and I [TS]

  think that's pretty cool being able to [TS]

  help people and make a difference in [TS]

  people's lives a small difference but a [TS]

  difference in the last and so because of [TS]

  that I in granted i'm still in the [TS]

  honeymoon period but i'm very hopeful [TS]

  that I'm really really going to enjoy [TS]

  working on this and additionally the [TS]

  particular company i'm working for the [TS]

  particular [TS]

  iOS app that i'll be working on it isn't [TS]

  great [TS]

  it's okay but isn't great but the [TS]

  important thing is the company knows [TS]

  that it isn't great and they're looking [TS]

  to fix it and so I'm getting in on the [TS]

  ground floor and being able to influence [TS]

  some of those changes in so far as I can [TS]

  help make architectural decisions you [TS]

  know not as much like oh we should use [TS]

  cocoapods vs I'm god what's the other [TS]

  one I'm drawing a blank doesn't matter [TS]

  who cares it does he have to go copepods [TS]

  first Carthage i believe it is going to [TS]

  be in charge of all the most boring [TS]

  decisions on the software projects right [TS]

  yeah well very exactly is gonna be our [TS]

  file naming convention [TS]

  whoa but you know what i mean like your [TS]

  architectural decisions I can work with [TS]

  my friend Jamie who is is pretty much [TS]

  lead architect I could work with him and [TS]

  we have a good rapport because we worked [TS]

  together in the past and say hey I [TS]

  really like this like that we should go [TS]

  that direction or you know this just [TS]

  doesn't feel right and and in some ways [TS]

  being a little bit ignorant as to how [TS]

  iOS development works is kind of an [TS]

  advantage for these sorts of discussions [TS]

  because i don't have that the background [TS]

  knowledge to influence or perhaps taint [TS]

  what I think about these decisions and [TS]

  so I'm really really amped to work on [TS]

  something and work on something for a [TS]

  long time which is something which is [TS]

  not what I've been doing for the last [TS]

  nearly decade does that answer your [TS]

  question or did I completely flubbed [TS]

  that [TS]

  yeah take care what I hadn't even [TS]

  thought about the whole time she think [TS]

  it shows how much consulting have done [TS]

  none but yeah that's gotta be a big [TS]

  upgrade and in lifestyle um I got I'm [TS]

  feel I've done product work and some [TS]

  fashion or another of my entire career [TS]

  and it for the most part is better even [TS]

  I could even working on a product that [TS]

  you're not actually interested in the [TS]

  idea of the aforementioned and often [TS]

  maligned industrial control software [TS]

  that can be interesting to like [TS]

  everything can be interesting i think [TS]

  that the dark side of product work is [TS]

  like like that both the best and the [TS]

  worst thing that could ever happen to a [TS]

  project you're working on his agency [TS]

  become very popular and very important [TS]

  to the company and a huge moneymaker you [TS]

  think it's not all upside no because [TS]

  that means the product will live for a [TS]

  long time and we'll have a lot of [TS]

  customers and any change to it is [TS]

  consequential and if you worked there [TS]

  for five years you will it work you know [TS]

  if you come five years after that [TS]

  happened you will be inheriting a giant [TS]

  possibly disgusting-looking codebase [TS]

  that nevertheless be treated as the [TS]

  golden you know [TS]

  yep child and can't be messed with and [TS]

  if you were there from the beginning you [TS]

  will have created five years worth of [TS]

  paint yourself into a corner and making [TS]

  dumb decisions that you come to regret [TS]

  and now have this giant you know Jenga [TS]

  style tower that's a it's teetering but [TS]

  nevertheless the entire company is built [TS]

  on and you're both responsible for [TS]

  having made it this way back when you [TS]

  were younger less-experienced you know [TS]

  past he was always the worst enemy of [TS]

  every programmer and you don't have the [TS]

  option to say well you know unless you [TS]

  change a different company wanted a [TS]

  different project now let's go to [TS]

  different products like no this product [TS]

  of the company but uh that is what the [TS]

  the joys and sorrows of product work but [TS]

  you are far from that now especially if [TS]

  you are if they have an app now they [TS]

  know it's bad so you're kind of getting [TS]

  to go in there and clean up just a try [TS]

  to keep five years from now Casey in [TS]

  mind when you're doing you're gonna get [TS]

  the idea and where were like I said we [TS]

  re architecting everything and were [TS]

  trying to make intelligent decisions as [TS]

  to how to do this so that it's [TS]

  sustainable so that it's testable which [TS]

  i know is marcos favorite thing you know [TS]

  unit testing my love you testing [TS]

  I test all over my everything yeah [TS]

  totally cover exalt my builders can just [TS]

  stop [TS]

  he's I think he's going to get testing [TS]

  religion it's gonna be awesome [TS]

  he's gonna be like you know what testing [TS]

  is actually useful way to something like [TS]

  I don't know what's gonna happen but it [TS]

  could happen conceivably oh I i was love [TS]

  if I already had testing know as a [TS]

  weight as a way to development like it [TS]

  you know rather than you like you're [TS]

  right lines of code you want to see [TS]

  those lines go do the thing you wanted [TS]

  to do like not entirely test-driven [TS]

  development just getting enough of it [TS]

  into video doesn't matter if no one else [TS]

  like it doesn't it doesn't even matter [TS]

  it's just the way I write code from now [TS]

  on it is i think everyone can benefit [TS]

  from testing and I feel like you will [TS]

  make that you'll turn that corner [TS]

  eventually we're just waiting for it to [TS]

  happen give an infinite time everyone [TS]

  could benefit from testing oh here we go [TS]

  now you'll be dead that's what happens [TS]

  with that but it's conceivable I could [TS]

  say that could happen [TS]

  oh yeah I don't think testing is a great [TS]

  idea that I don't do [TS]

  yeah I think that's probably fair [TS]

  summary anything else on the a new job [TS]

  any other questions are yes the other [TS]

  thing that you should point out because [TS]

  there was confusion about it and I [TS]

  to bring up as another point is that a [TS]

  lot of people think like hey I left my [TS]

  my job or I had that work in his big [TS]

  corporation like a dilbert or wherever [TS]

  and now i'm going indie but you're not [TS]

  you know don't quite know what indie [TS]

  means of it in the market knows but in [TS]

  these meetings because he's basically [TS]

  been that for a very long time now but [TS]

  India's means like you're gonna stop [TS]

  working [TS]

  well it depends it's kinda like indie [TS]

  rock it's kinda get is sending them for [TS]

  retired indie rocker independent movies [TS]

  like the look of that term especially [TS]

  independent movies like started to warp [TS]

  as like small independent movies would [TS]

  nevertheless be bankrolled by big [TS]

  studios on a development but anyway the [TS]

  definition of indy for software is [TS]

  basically that you write software for a [TS]

  company that you own [TS]

  it's been money to a little bit by the [TS]

  fact that if all your paychecks come [TS]

  with a signature that says Apple [TS]

  incorporated at the bottom of it are you [TS]

  really in d you still kinda handy [TS]

  definition was like yeah even if every [TS]

  one of your paychecks designed by Apple [TS]

  you're still indeed because you get [TS]

  decide everything about the product you [TS]

  own the product you just are sort of [TS]

  outsourcing your distribution and your [TS]

  entire relationship with your customers [TS]

  many other things to apple but you're [TS]

  still in DC but the bottom line is that [TS]

  and also what comes with it is like you [TS]

  you run the show you make the decisions [TS]

  and you're not running a hundred person [TS]

  company like is you know are the heads [TS]

  of all the omni group indie no not [TS]

  really i've got a company we've got a [TS]

  mac software company in iOS software [TS]

  company that a lot of people work for [TS]

  can you be ended with two people [TS]

  probably two or three maybe you're [TS]

  pushing it but the idea is that [TS]

  essentially you are your own boss or [TS]

  something very close to it and so in [TS]

  that case if you worked on a project for [TS]

  a long time and you kind of got sick of [TS]

  it even if it was selling well because [TS]

  you're indeed you could say you know i'm [TS]

  going to something else now as long as [TS]

  the next thing you do also sells well as [TS]

  long as you have some sort of transition [TS]

  plan for supporting the other one or [TS]

  maybe you sell it to somebody like [TS]

  market loves to do [TS]

  that's fine you can do that whereas if [TS]

  you're in a company especially if you're [TS]

  like a public company with shareholders [TS]

  and everything is scaled up and people [TS]

  care about you like well i tried [TS]

  different product now this one is [TS]

  perfectly fine its profitable but i'm [TS]

  kinda bored of it that doesn't happen [TS]

  that [TS]

  so this is something that the group [TS]

  called an arc along time ago the life [TS]

  capital T capital L i think it was in [TS]

  reference to bring Simmons from stopping [TS]

  the newswire development [TS]

  he probably sort of in the the post [TS]

  Internet age sort of made the time when [TS]

  Apple is on an upswing there was a [TS]

  resurgent in the old ideas the ideas [TS]

  exist for a long time but it was a [TS]

  resurgent and the popularization of the [TS]

  idea thanks to the internet and blogs [TS]

  that if you're a computer programmer who [TS]

  like the apple stuff you could make a [TS]

  pretty good living for yourself by [TS]

  writing programs that other people who [TS]

  use apple stuff would buy from you and [TS]

  they would give you money and you would [TS]

  give them software and if you can get [TS]

  enough of them to do that through the [TS]

  magic of software like it's not any [TS]

  harder work for you to sell an [TS]

  application 200 people versus a thousand [TS]

  verses potentially a million because [TS]

  it's our bits and you copy them and you [TS]

  don't have to manufacture them and [TS]

  there's no incremental cost him you know [TS]

  all the wonderful things about software [TS]

  that you can do a certain amount of work [TS]

  and the amount of work that you have to [TS]

  do does not scale with a number of [TS]

  customers you do the work and then if [TS]

  ten people buy you the same amount of [TS]

  work is it as if 20 or 30-year hundred [TS]

  and so people can make really good [TS]

  livings selling software they were their [TS]

  own boss [TS]

  they got to do something good they [TS]

  wanted to do they got immense [TS]

  satisfaction of that and out of it and [TS]

  it was you know that's the life he was [TS]

  referring to iOS gave a different view [TS]

  of that but at this point I think [TS]

  everyone who's involved in this [TS]

  ecosystem would agree that is slightly [TS]

  harder to live the life it is slightly [TS]

  harder to being independent software [TS]

  developer who makes the they're living [TS]

  doing that if only because the market is [TS]

  so much more crowd we talked about this [TS]

  on [TS]

  maybe this podcast maybe the ones nobody [TS]

  distant past of like if you're doing [TS]

  something that is really fun and a lot [TS]

  of other people want to do it because [TS]

  it's fun [TS]

  that's going to drive down the value of [TS]

  the thing you're doing a bunch of [TS]

  students want to make an iOS application [TS]

  for fun and give it away for free or [TS]

  close to free and you say well but I've [TS]

  got to feed my family I can't afford to [TS]

  give away you know like like the value [TS]

  of what you're doing is being driven [TS]

  down because there are more people in [TS]

  the market so it makes it harder for a [TS]

  regular person who wants a family [TS]

  in healthcare and everything to be able [TS]

  to make a living as an independent [TS]

  software developers not getting to the [TS]

  point where it's like being a [TS]

  professional athlete were so small now [TS]

  can do it but it's getting more to the [TS]

  point where it's like a regular job [TS]

  where it's not like if you're a decent [TS]

  programmer and you find a market needs [TS]

  not being met and you sell an [TS]

  application you're good to go for 20 [TS]

  years you can just keep selling and [TS]

  revising an application for 20 years and [TS]

  you'll have a healthy lifestyle like [TS]

  those days are past because the market [TS]

  is just you know too crowded but my [TS]

  question for Casey about his new job is [TS]

  maybe you didn't think about that now [TS]

  because you're like I don't know enough [TS]

  about iOS development but my question is [TS]

  does that still appeal to you as sort of [TS]

  the real polar opposite grass is greener [TS]

  on the other side of the fence from [TS]

  going from the consulting world-building [TS]

  world where you have to go where they [TS]

  tell you you have to track your hours [TS]

  here you know different clients are your [TS]

  masters at various times and the far [TS]

  past its side is marcos life where you [TS]

  call the shots you decide what you're [TS]

  going to make and you build it your way [TS]

  on your schedule in your time and find a [TS]

  way to make that a viable living that [TS]

  ever that this does that still ppl i try [TS]

  to find a way to make it a viable living [TS]

  it doesn't always work [TS]

  I make things my way I call the shots [TS]

  but then the market decides whether to [TS]

  pay me or not yeah but like you have you [TS]

  know if for the most part you've been [TS]

  successful doing that like I said it's [TS]

  not an easy thing to do like it's not [TS]

  like you're going to know how many how [TS]

  many people do you know who are still [TS]

  living in the indie life of my question [TS]

  four cases does that and I'm not [TS]

  honestly I'm not even sure I am anymore [TS]

  that's fine you don't ok I I know what [TS]

  you mean but I think ab store economics [TS]

  are such that it is very very hard to do [TS]

  that anymore and and i think the number [TS]

  of people doing that is probably [TS]

  shrinking for sure but I'm not like you [TS]

  know overcast is not making as much as [TS]

  instapaper did and and the trend lines [TS]

  for these things are generally downward [TS]

  and overcast is making you know that the [TS]

  number [TS]

  overcast numbers are going up very [TS]

  slowly now with batrix but it's making [TS]

  still making less than what did before [TS]

  the pic model which that was less than [TS]

  12 paper made so you know overall this [TS]

  whole market is getting harder [TS]

  yeah i think john your I understand what [TS]

  you [TS]

  ivy and there's there's a couple of [TS]

  things to unpack here first of all I it [TS]

  was easy for me to tell who didn't did [TS]

  not read my entire blog post because [TS]

  those who did read the blog post it was [TS]

  abundantly obvious that i am still [TS]

  working for the man it's just a [TS]

  different man [TS]

  figuratively speaking of course but [TS]

  those who didn't read the blog post or [TS]

  perhaps only right above the fold were [TS]

  like oh UND congratulations [TS]

  what's that was kind of funny but to [TS]

  directly answer your question I [TS]

  certainly have thought quite a bit about [TS]

  going completely independent and to me [TS]

  that means one of two things it either [TS]

  means what you described John and what [TS]

  Marco is trying to endure succeeding at [TS]

  doing i'll let you be the judge of that [TS]

  I'm or it means i am consulting but not [TS]

  as part of a consulting firm but instead [TS]

  as an independent consultant and this is [TS]

  if you're in the united states often for [TS]

  just any nining there's many other ways [TS]

  you can refer to it but that means as a [TS]

  single person i am going and helping [TS]

  with something and I am my own boss [TS]

  I am my own sales person i am my own [TS]

  employee i am everything soup to nuts [TS]

  and so what may happen if I wonder if i [TS]

  were to make a guess I think one of a [TS]

  couple things will happen either [TS]

  I'll stay at my current job for quite a [TS]

  long time or I will be here for a while [TS]

  and so I really get to know iOS and then [TS]

  maybe all try to split my time between a [TS]

  handful of of clients and those clients [TS]

  might be say Marco an underscore or [TS]

  maybe somebody else entirely [TS]

  or maybe all come up with that brilliant [TS]

  idea to make that impossibly great [TS]

  update too fast texter you know whatever [TS]

  whatever comes after fast text but I [TS]

  don't think today I'm in a position that [TS]

  I would be comfortable being completely [TS]

  independent as much as I think it would [TS]

  be fun and as much as I'd love to try it [TS]

  I don't think I'm comfortable doing it [TS]

  today I'm the only breadwinner for the [TS]

  family and granted I'm diversified a bit [TS]

  insofar as i have podcast income as well [TS]

  as regular income [TS]

  I really want to continue to have health [TS]

  insurance that my employer helps me pay [TS]

  for and the thing that I really want to [TS]

  do like I said earlier I kind of know [TS]

  how to do but i don't really know how to [TS]

  do and the best way to learn how to [TS]

  really do it is to just freakin do it [TS]

  and it's much easier as i discussed [TS]

  earlier to be a part of a product [TS]

  company who knows what they're getting [TS]

  into when they hired you and knows what [TS]

  you are not capable of [TS]

  it's easier to to learn on that job then [TS]

  it is to to try to position yourself as [TS]

  a expert consultants but not really be [TS]

  an expert in it so for now I'm really [TS]

  happy with the move again i'm in the [TS]

  honeymoon period you know there's [TS]

  certainly bad parts to this company like [TS]

  there are any company but so far all the [TS]

  bad parts seem super manageable and all [TS]

  the good parts seem awesome so I'm [TS]

  really enthusiastic they are you talking [TS]

  about considering you know the whole [TS]

  1099 independent consulting only because [TS]

  it is a thing that you know assume you [TS]

  talked about c-sharp type consulting or [TS]

  mine no no no i meant I meant what I [TS]

  mean it could be sharp but I what I'm [TS]

  saying like if you were to do it now you [TS]

  like it would be very difficult for you [TS]

  to be an iOS consultant person you don't [TS]

  have a lot of relevant experience but [TS]

  you could consult on the same exact [TS]

  stuff that you were doing at the [TS]

  previous company and to to me that's [TS]

  like the worst of both worlds are you [TS]

  doing you have to be consultant you have [TS]

  to work at a tech that maybe you don't [TS]

  like Arizona is interesting to you as as [TS]

  iOS and you have to do everything [TS]

  yourself and it's like like all the all [TS]

  the downsides of being independent but [TS]

  none of the upsides of getting to decide [TS]

  what you want to make you know man yep i [TS]

  completely agree with you and plus i [TS]

  don't think i'm a very very good [TS]

  salesperson soho I don't think I would [TS]

  be good at like you know pounding the [TS]

  pavement or whatever turns phrase you [TS]

  want to use and trying to drum up work [TS]

  for myself I mean I feel like you know I [TS]

  could shill for myself on the podcast be [TS]

  like hey guys if you want to see HR [TS]

  person just let me know but I'd rather [TS]

  not do that and it's just it's not that [TS]

  those sorts of things that you just [TS]

  described are not things that I'm [TS]

  interested in and not things that I [TS]

  think I'm good [TS]

  that and just like you said I don't the [TS]

  things that I'm good at like C sharp and [TS]

  that sort of thing I don't necessarily [TS]

  want to keep doing so you're exactly [TS]

  right to go completely independent today [TS]

  I would probably be backed into the [TS]

  corner of doing all the things i don't [TS]

  really want to do and so I'd much rather [TS]

  have the steady and reliable paycheck [TS]

  and the help on health insurance that [TS]

  comes from working for a quote unquote [TS]

  the man and and then we'll reevaluate in [TS]

  a couple years and see where things [TS]

  stand then but like you I think I can [TS]

  speak for you John i am extremely [TS]

  risk-adverse is that one other servers i [TS]

  always get the i was getting wrong sorry [TS]

  I'm extremely risk averse and I'd rather [TS]

  have some of that risk consumed my by my [TS]

  employer then have to shoulder myself [TS]

  now yes this is where all of the [TS]

  internet and perhaps marcos saying well [TS]

  your employer could fire you at any [TS]

  second they could fold tomorrow you [TS]

  never really really know and yes that's [TS]

  true but the way I perceive it [TS]

  you know better were certain different [TS]

  is that this is less risky than going [TS]

  completely independent today you're at [TS]

  least outsourcing many of the jobs you [TS]

  know you're outsourcing many of the [TS]

  risks and and much of the work by [TS]

  working for somebody else and I wouldn't [TS]

  say you know that you're totally right [TS]

  and pretty what I would say that you [TS]

  know any job you could lose at any [TS]

  moment it you just kind of lose control [TS]

  when you're working for somebody else [TS]

  but the fact is if you go to work for an [TS]

  already established company that it [TS]

  already has multiple employees and like [TS]

  your salary is not where understand [TS]

  their budget is going you know then like [TS]

  you know certainly it it makes it less [TS]

  likely that they would fail on the [TS]

  market in a way to it that would affect [TS]

  you or things like that like compared to [TS]

  just you going on your own and trying to [TS]

  make one app and and see it trying to [TS]

  see that one succeed you know because [TS]

  the company that you're going to work [TS]

  for has already released that one app [TS]

  and they it's already doing well enough [TS]

  to hire people and keep paying the bills [TS]

  oh hopefully you know so so you know [TS]

  certainly you do reduce and outsource [TS]

  some of those risks i working for [TS]

  somebody else when additionally and [TS]

  additionally you know I didn't leave my [TS]

  old job with my middle fingers in the [TS]

  air you know I left my old job in such a [TS]

  way that [TS]

  if things fell through with this 1i [TS]

  pretty sure i could go back without [TS]

  having to put my tail too far between my [TS]

  legs and I pretty sure every job of left [TS]

  I could say the same for and plus is as [TS]

  time goes on you know some of the people [TS]

  I worked with two or three jobs ago are [TS]

  now at other jobs where I've never [TS]

  worked and so I could go work with old [TS]

  friends again at the new places they're [TS]

  not working out which actually if you [TS]

  think about it is exactly what happened [TS]

  here [TS]

  yeah Jamie where Jamie and I work [TS]

  together a couple of jobs ago [TS]

  yay we still kept in touch for a long [TS]

  time and and it ended up that this all [TS]

  came circling back around I kinda hate [TS]

  myself became we circle back to each [TS]

  other and now we're working together [TS]

  yep emulator all over the parking lot [TS]

  yeah exactly so you know it for those [TS]

  who are not independent which i think is [TS]

  the overwhelming majority of us if you [TS]

  leave a job not like a jerk [TS]

  you also have that option so even if [TS]

  this all fizzled tomorrow I would still [TS]

  have the option of going back to the old [TS]

  job or working with some of my old [TS]

  coworkers from years ago and there's [TS]

  always new bridges to burn [TS]

  hey I'm still disappointed that you [TS]

  didn't take take us up on the offer to [TS]

  have me John an underscore go into your [TS]

  old job and quit for you [TS]

  that would've been hysterical but now i [TS]

  don't think that would have been a wise [TS]

  choice [TS]

  probably not but it would've been really [TS]

  fun for us at least I think you made the [TS]

  right choice for yourself the hook [TS]

  yes but it would have been enjoyable in [TS]

  man that would've been a really great a [TS]

  youtube video for there's nothing else [TS]

  we are happy to burn anyone's bridges [TS]

  that they need burned for that we're [TS]

  happy to do that [TS]

  yeah that's something I mean oh I could [TS]

  I certainly had a list of grievances [TS]

  that I could have shared with my [TS]

  employer on the way out the door and I [TS]

  do I think they knew some of the things [TS]

  that that made me unhappy like the fact [TS]

  that I wasn't doing iOS and so what I [TS]

  told him I was leaving they were a [TS]

  little surprised and a little bummed but [TS]

  one that I said I was leaving to iOS [TS]

  work they're like oh okay that makes [TS]

  sense so so I I i feel like you know [TS]

  there's no good come in my perspective [TS]

  anyway no good comes of you know [TS]

  hey [TS]

  I quit and by the way let me tell you [TS]

  all the reasons why you guys are a bunch [TS]

  of jerks [TS]

  yeah there's no good comes to that [TS]

  because in so everyone is a jerk in [TS]

  their own way and I'm a jerk in my own [TS]

  way and so you know we can all be charts [TS]

  together and that's okay well plus like [TS]

  suppose you do go back to your old [TS]

  company say in two years you are now a [TS]

  two-year experienced iOS developer that [TS]

  they didn't have to pay you for training [TS]

  in the meantime and now they can charge [TS]

  you more for your time [TS]

  yeah that's actually extremely true yeah [TS]

  so I'm we'll see how it goes i'm really [TS]

  excited I'm really scared and I'm really [TS]

  excited and [TS]

  excited and [TS]

  I'm really anxious to see what it's like [TS]

  it's gonna be interesting being [TS]

  client-side and it's going to be [TS]

  interesting here is because most of the [TS]

  c-sharp stuff i was writing it was all [TS]

  server side i have written some [TS]

  client-side c-sharp way way back when i [TS]

  first started writing and in c-sharp but [TS]

  I'm done that in a long time [TS]

  the closest thing I've come to [TS]

  client-side programming in JavaScript [TS]

  and I'm not going to get into that holy [TS]

  war but suffice to say i haven't done [TS]

  real honest-to-goodness client-side [TS]

  development in a long time and [TS]

  additionally i'm really looking forward [TS]

  to some of the engineering challenges of [TS]

  working on a mobile device that I [TS]

  haven't had to worry about a long time [TS]

  you know like the the processors are [TS]

  getting faster and faster and stronger [TS]

  and stronger but you know can cycles are [TS]

  not free and more importantly network [TS]

  traffic is not free and you know even [TS]

  over even after having been there only a [TS]

  couple days there's a couple of choices [TS]

  that have been made in the app for [TS]

  understandable reasons that I'm that I'm [TS]

  thinking to myself oh em that probably [TS]

  shouldn't be the way we do things and [TS]

  then I'm not the first one to this [TS]

  conclusion there you know it's a known [TS]

  issue but it's some of those engineering [TS]

  challenges that you don't have to think [TS]

  about that often anymore even though you [TS]

  probably should but you don't have to [TS]

  that I'm really anxious to start [TS]

  worrying about again even though it's [TS]

  gonna be a complete pain in the took us [TS]

  so we'll see [TS]

  just let me know when you get far enough [TS]

  into your Swift stuff that we can talk [TS]

  about a member wise initializer [TS]

  proposals on the podcasting and board [TS]

  marker with it [TS]

  alright sounds great it's not the thing [TS]

  that Erica Satan's evans at forgive me I [TS]

  don't pronounce your last name but she [TS]

  just been a blog post about that like a [TS]

  week ago maybe a few days ago maybe [TS]

  she's on the list shape the blog post [TS]

  about its with evolution learn about the [TS]

  future of the language just learning [TS]

  exactly can tell what you're learning [TS]

  now will be obsolete in t-minus three [TS]

  months its proposal closer [TS]

  this is great though as long as long as [TS]

  case he keeps learning Swift I don't [TS]

  have to really we can just use you right [TS]

  i don't think that's how that works [TS]

  yeah pretty sure that's not how it works [TS]

  somebody i think it was Curtis had said [TS]

  it sat outside the you guys gotta switch [TS]

  programmer on the show but anyway so [TS]

  yeah well we'll see how it goes but I'm [TS]

  really anxious see a lot of the existing [TS]

  code is of course in objective-c but I'm [TS]

  but all the new stuff is Swift and I'll [TS]

  i was looking at the Swift book over the [TS]

  funemployment week and I was trying to [TS]

  teach myself some of it and a lot of [TS]

  Swift really does intend it to be [TS]

  completely fair this is all academic [TS]

  because i was working in a playground [TS]

  just reading the book but a lot of it [TS]

  looks really really good and it may be [TS]

  that once I start really developing with [TS]

  it i will hate everything but so far I'm [TS]

  really enjoying it it's looking really [TS]

  good to me so I still am I still in [TS]

  second place for amount of Swift written [TS]

  if you count the lines of code in my [TS]

  host Henry years [TS]

  yes alright let me know market when you [TS]

  do more than 10 lines or whatever my [TS]

  counter my life count is further than [TS]

  the section where I put code samples of [TS]

  swift and well i will start learning [TS]

  Swift when desktop linux takes over it's [TS]

  always like a year and a half out [TS]

  mhm anyway so I appreciate you let me go [TS]

  on about that for a while but yeah and [TS]

  also I i would be remiss of me not to [TS]

  mention or that I've gotten so many [TS]

  people tweeting at me in response to the [TS]

  blog post and the announcement and [TS]

  marcos blog post as well or link post [TS]

  and I really appreciate all of it [TS]

  I didn't think that many people gave a [TS]

  crap about where i spent my time during [TS]

  the day and i don't mean that a nasty [TS]

  way it's very flattering that on that [TS]

  people have said that have been so so [TS]

  enthusiastic and so I really really [TS]

  appreciate it [TS]

  we just couldn't wait to pull you out of [TS]

  the parking lot that was really like all [TS]

  like you know each you know we did we [TS]

  never talked that much about your work [TS]

  just because you know it wasn't you know [TS]

  what you want to talk about on the show [TS]

  and you know we don't see each other [TS]

  privately that often but it certainly [TS]

  did seem to me that some of the some of [TS]

  the overhead of of being in like a big [TS]

  corporate not being a big order but you [TS]

  know being like a like a big company and [TS]

  doing the consultant working having a [TS]

  tracker time everything I can't even [TS]

  imagine you know that the kind of stress [TS]

  that you have to internalize to have [TS]

  things like your traffic light incident [TS]

  of like thinking about how am I going to [TS]

  build a client for the time I [TS]

  accidentally spent a little bit too much [TS]

  at the traffic light like it seems like [TS]

  that is something that [TS]

  you know it's certainly working for any [TS]

  company has it stresses and working for [TS]

  no company has it stresses even though [TS]

  nobody else sees them except me [TS]

  but you were it but I feel like you're [TS]

  making a move here that at least by the [TS]

  way it sounds and and by what you are [TS]

  describing so far it sounds like you're [TS]

  moving towards less stress and towards [TS]

  something that is what that is [TS]

  significantly more aligned with what you [TS]

  want to be doing and and with where you [TS]

  want to take your skills and you with [TS]

  things like iOS and to move towards [TS]

  client-side stuff moving towards Swift [TS]

  so it sounds like for what you want [TS]

  today this is a way better fit for you [TS]

  and so I'm really happy for you [TS]

  i I am so happy to hear this and I think [TS]

  anyone who's been following your work [TS]

  for you know the last couple years or [TS]

  whatever anyone who's been following [TS]

  your work recently has probably noticed [TS]

  the same things that like what you were [TS]

  doing was not very well I'm with what [TS]

  you want to be doing anymore and now [TS]

  this new job sounds like it is [TS]

  yeah I couldn't agree more and I [TS]

  appreciate it i'm really looking forward [TS]

  to it and the funny thing about all this [TS]

  is is that I've been able in lucky [TS]

  enough to get a WV DC in twenty eleven [TS]

  twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen and [TS]

  every single time i've been i've felt [TS]

  almost like guilty that I've taken a [TS]

  ticket from like a quote-unquote rely OS [TS]

  developer because you know there was [TS]

  certainly a potential every single year [TS]

  that I could be doing an iOS project in [TS]

  the following year but nevertheless I [TS]

  hadn't done very many of them and let's [TS]

  be honest like we've talked about it [TS]

  more than a couple times on the show [TS]

  last text was never that popular [TS]

  well here it is now that I'm an [TS]

  honest-to-goodness iOS developer [TS]

  guaranteed i want to take this year so [TS]

  I've ruined everything but that's okay [TS]

  I'll just tell us about something that's [TS]

  awesome [TS]

  speaking of making corporate things [TS]

  better we are sponsored this week by a [TS]

  glue glue is the corporate intranet that [TS]

  you will actually like now if you ever [TS]

  worked in a corporate environment with [TS]

  parking lots you know how painful [TS]

  internets usually are the content is so [TS]

  often stale the interface is really ugly [TS]

  you can access on your phone or get any [TS]

  meaningful work done outside the office [TS]

  igloo is a modern internet designed by [TS]

  human beings [TS]

  for other human beings that you will [TS]

  actually like it's an easy-to-use [TS]

  collaboration tool that can help you do [TS]

  your best work you can share files and [TS]

  updates with your team coordinate [TS]

  calendars managed apartment projects and [TS]

  more when whether you're a large [TS]

  enterprise stuck using sharepoint I'm so [TS]

  glad I've never seen sharepoint I don't [TS]

  even know what it is i just know it's [TS]

  microsoft and everyone hates a trigger [TS]

  warning trigger warning track warning oh [TS]

  my god please [TS]

  does the new job sharepoint know thank [TS]

  God or if they do I haven't seen it and [TS]

  that and I want to keep it that way [TS]

  good because nobody likes sharepoint if [TS]

  you're stuck with that or if you're fast [TS]

  growing business overrun by file-sharing [TS]

  Calendar apps you can create a corporate [TS]

  internet that matches your brand's [TS]

  look-and-feel simplifies how you work [TS]

  and is accessible on any device mobile [TS]

  laptop desktop anything all today at a [TS]

  blue software com so go to a blue [TS]

  software com / ATP what is not to like [TS]

  here check it out today a loose [TS]

  offer.com / ATP the internet that you [TS]

  will actually like start a free trial [TS]

  today to check it out and if you're [TS]

  under 10 people you can even use it for [TS]

  free forever so that's pretty cool check [TS]

  out a blue software today a blue [TS]

  software com / ATP thanks a lot [TS]

  alright so just to keep this the all [TS]

  cases all the time show I wanted to tell [TS]

  you about my last day at my last job and [TS]

  the sounds like it's gonna be boring but [TS]

  bear with me here I decided because I [TS]

  wanted to be a model employee and I [TS]

  don't need to hear emails about why this [TS]

  maybe it was a bad idea i'm sticking [TS]

  with it being a good idea i decided to [TS]

  be a model employee and try to remove [TS]

  all of my stuff off my work computer for [TS]

  the last job all my stuff off of it just [TS]

  reload OS 10 leave it in a position [TS]

  where you know it's it starts up and you [TS]

  know you're the first thing it's going [TS]

  to do is finish the installation so i [TS]

  did that over the weekend right before [TS]

  this past Monday so when I went in [TS]

  Monday I effectively had no computer [TS]

  I mean I physically had one but it was [TS]

  ready to get setup i knew i had taken [TS]

  mr. clean magic eraser and clean the [TS]

  exterior of it [TS]

  everything was good i put it back in the [TS]

  box because for whatever reason when [TS]

  they gave me the computer they gave me [TS]

  the box [TS]

  everything was great i really wanted to [TS]

  however [TS]

  and a few tax related documents at our [TS]

  scanner in the office and the way the [TS]

  scanner works is it was a scanner / [TS]

  printer / copying machine you can save [TS]

  something to USB key you can save [TS]

  something to endure you can send [TS]

  something to email [TS]

  well I didn't know how long my email [TS]

  address is gonna last because you know [TS]

  it's it maybe I could have keyed in my [TS]

  personal email address but it was [TS]

  certainly intended to be used only for [TS]

  your work email addresses and I'm [TS]

  literally there for like 2-3 hours to do [TS]

  an exit interview or two and then get on [TS]

  my way so I didn't even know if i would [TS]

  have an email address played on this [TS]

  past Monday it turns out I did but I [TS]

  brought my ipad mini with me and what I [TS]

  wanted to do was I wanted to scan these [TS]

  documents and confirm that they scanned [TS]

  properly and save them to dropbox if at [TS]

  all possible [TS]

  so how do you do that well I brought a [TS]

  USB key but the problem with that is i [TS]

  have no way to confirm whether or not it [TS]

  works we don't have any like public [TS]

  terminals sitting around in the office [TS]

  i'm sure i could have asked somebody [TS]

  awkwardly hey do you mind if I use your [TS]

  computer to see if my scam w2 looks [TS]

  right light PS don't look over my [TS]

  shoulder please because it shows you [TS]

  exactly how much I made last year and [TS]

  that's a little awkward so I needed to [TS]

  do everything via my iPad and what I [TS]

  ended up doing was I had sent the scans [TS]

  to my work email which was still working [TS]

  sat down on my iPad looked these scans [TS]

  and then put them in dropbox that sounds [TS]

  like it was a pretty easy thing to do [TS]

  but man did it take for ever compared to [TS]

  using a mac i had to go to mail i had to [TS]

  wait for the message to download get [TS]

  angry when occasionally male showed me [TS]

  that there was a new message but refused [TS]

  to download it for squid male go back [TS]

  into male finally the messages there now [TS]

  i need to open the PDF then I need to [TS]

  open a Dolittle share sheet thing go to [TS]

  open in and then go to dropbox and then [TS]

  now I'm opening it in dropbox now i need [TS]

  to tap tap tap tap tap to figure out [TS]

  what folder to go in and I need to [TS]

  rename the file by the way and then i [TS]

  can finally save it [TS]

  sometimes there was a share button [TS]

  sometimes there wasn't i needed to tap [TS]

  and hold on a freaking nightmare [TS]

  it took forever to do something that on [TS]

  a Mac would have taken like four and a [TS]

  half seconds so it was both a wonderful [TS]

  experience in that i was able to [TS]

  accomplish this at all on the ipad which [TS]

  i think even a little even not long ago [TS]

  I wouldn't have been able to or would [TS]

  have been even more taps 22 to make this [TS]

  work but all i wanted in the world has [TS]

  to have a mac in front of me so I could [TS]

  make this go so much faster [TS]

  additionally i need to fill out another [TS]

  tax form which included a signature on [TS]

  OS 10 you can sign using your finger on [TS]

  the trackpad in preview or you can sign [TS]

  a piece of paper hold it up to the [TS]

  camera that's on your mac and it will [TS]

  score quotes can really take a picture [TS]

  of your signature and and filter out all [TS]

  the background noise if you will and and [TS]

  let you put your signature on pdfs [TS]

  easy-peasy simple to do with the stuff [TS]

  that comes on iOS I couldn't do that i [TS]

  am sure they're like 300 different apps [TS]

  like for example PDF man that would have [TS]

  let me do that but I didn't have [TS]

  anything out of the box to do it and [TS]

  that's frustrating and I don't want to [TS]

  have to search the App Store which as we [TS]

  discussed earlier is a dumpster fire [TS]

  full of options to figure out the one [TS]

  that I wanted [TS]

  additionally similarly some of the PDFs [TS]

  that I scanned I really wanted to rotate [TS]

  on preview that's command are easy peasy [TS]

  how do you do that on an iPad without a [TS]

  third-party app what I'm coming around [TS]

  to and bringing all this up is I really [TS]

  enjoyed the fact that i could sit on one [TS]

  of the couches at work where we had the [TS]

  old job where we had some couches and [TS]

  actually there's some of the new job as [TS]

  well i really enjoyed being able to sit [TS]

  on the couches at work and use use a [TS]

  computing device that wasn't a laptop [TS]

  but all i wanted in the world was to [TS]

  have a damn laptop and I understand why [TS]

  Mike and Federico and cgpgrey and [TS]

  Jason's now and others [TS]

  might enjoy that because it was kind of [TS]

  cool being able to put puzzle pieces [TS]

  together to get most of this stuff done [TS]

  but maybe i'm just old [TS]

  I don't know why but it just felt awful [TS]

  to have to jump through so many damn [TS]

  hoops to get what are comparatively [TS]

  super simple operations done on the ipad [TS]

  and I don't know if you guys have any [TS]

  thoughts about this if you if it in many [TS]

  yeah well and I don't know if this is if [TS]

  we're beating this horse to death but i [TS]

  don't get--why this would be fun for [TS]

  people i just don't see why it would be [TS]

  fun i think i understand why it felt bad [TS]

  like one reason I mean you kind of [TS]

  touched on ry might feel bad to have [TS]

  this experience and why was it so [TS]

  difficult part of it has to be just [TS]

  simply a gap in knowledge that for [TS]

  example vtg could tell you exactly how [TS]

  you should be doing the thing that [TS]

  you're doing because he has experience [TS]

  you know how to do it on the mac because [TS]

  you've done it before on the Mac you [TS]

  know which programs how to get things [TS]

  between them and the comparison i was [TS]

  thinking like so many things that seem [TS]

  effortless to me in my mac are not [TS]

  effortless to other people with less [TS]

  experience with Max that we don't even [TS]

  think about these tools we have at our [TS]

  disposal and you always know you know [TS]

  drag from this application of that one [TS]

  but that one you can't drag directly [TS]

  into their you can drag it onto the app [TS]

  icon for this application but this other [TS]

  one you got to go to desktop [TS]

  intermediary and who knows you could [TS]

  drag anything out of there and how do [TS]

  you know sometimes you gotta hold down [TS]

  before the Dragons active and you can't [TS]

  just start dragging soon as you click [TS]

  the mouse button like the things we [TS]

  internalize details that are just [TS]

  byzantine and don't really make any [TS]

  sense in aren't consistent and we don't [TS]

  have to go to the app store and look at [TS]

  the application because you already have [TS]

  them installed and we already know you [TS]

  know all that like that we know what to [TS]

  do in the mac and so you go to some [TS]

  place where you don't know what to do [TS]

  when you feel less confident it feels [TS]

  like i know i could do this in two [TS]

  seconds in rel max where I am an expert [TS]

  and now i'm in around why and it's [TS]

  frustrating to you know to get into to [TS]

  feel like a novice and that I think [TS]

  explains a large part of the [TS]

  dissatisfaction and the fact that you [TS]

  could do it at all probably means that [TS]

  there is like 900 better ways to do it [TS]

  you just don't know yet because you [TS]

  don't have the apps installed but on the [TS]

  other side of this is what we talked [TS]

  about a lot [TS]

  is that in the end some things still [TS]

  just are easier to do on the Mac no [TS]

  matter what a range of things because [TS]

  sometimes some of the things that video [TS]

  you might explain about his crazy world [TS]

  of living and you know on the ipad only [TS]

  you think about it you're like all right [TS]

  well that's impressive that you could do [TS]

  it all really it's a Rube Goldberg [TS]

  machine and that's really [TS]

  this can't be the the true path forward [TS]

  like really this is just like you're [TS]

  doing this to suffice for now but i have [TS]

  to believe it [TS]

  maybe some of the things that you're [TS]

  doing actually would be just as easy if [TS]

  not easier on the ipad if you just know [TS]

  how to do them [TS]

  yeah you do very well could be right i [TS]

  guess the thing that frustrated me was [TS]

  that out-of-the-box on OS 10 all the [TS]

  puzzle pieces i need are there and are [TS]

  arranged pretty closely together so you [TS]

  just kind of have to shove them a little [TS]

  bit nearer to each other and they all [TS]

  fit and I think you made a great point [TS]

  that a lot of that comes from experience [TS]

  whereas out-of-the-box on iOS those [TS]

  puzzle pieces may exist and help [TS]

  they may even fit together more nicely [TS]

  then they do an OS 10 although i'm [TS]

  skeptical but the problem is you have to [TS]

  seek them out and i personally don't [TS]

  have that patients that Mike and [TS]

  Federico and so many others do now Marco [TS]

  what were you going to say about all [TS]

  this [TS]

  I was actually gonna say something very [TS]

  similar to what John said which is like [TS]

  in the ipads defense you were not [TS]

  familiar with it you know you are an [TS]

  expert on the Mac you are not an expert [TS]

  in doing this kind of thing on the ipad [TS]

  and so yes there are ways to do these [TS]

  kinds of things that you just didn't [TS]

  know it be similar like if you if you [TS]

  try to use linux and when it might have [TS]

  tons of tools to do these things and you [TS]

  don't know about them you know things [TS]

  like that so something to think about [TS]

  with with iOS stuff and and with people [TS]

  who are going to do like most of the [TS]

  work on iOS or all their work on iOS I [TS]

  think there's a bit of a parallel to [TS]

  draw here between this kind of dilemma [TS]

  and the reason why people but why some [TS]

  people still buy laptops with DVD drives [TS]

  in them and all of us geeks can look at [TS]

  this and say why would anybody want a [TS]

  lap of the DVD drive that what year is [TS]

  this it is very common people still buy [TS]

  the DVD drive because they say well what [TS]

  if I need it I need this every so often [TS]

  it's very similar to what happened [TS]

  how people justify buying SUVs a lot of [TS]

  times for pickups [TS]

  yeah a lot of times people who buy SUVs [TS]

  are doing they choose them over a [TS]

  different kind of vehicle that they [TS]

  might be happier and more comfortable [TS]

  driving more of the time or that might [TS]

  work better for them in other ways might [TS]

  be easier to park or more efficient or [TS]

  whatever they choose SUVs over those [TS]

  vehicles sometimes because they think [TS]

  they might occasionally need to use some [TS]

  of you know the features on the SUV and [TS]

  even though [TS]

  ninety-nine percent of the time they [TS]

  never use them and during the entire [TS]

  time they only at that SUV the need for [TS]

  it for its benefits over a regular [TS]

  vehicle might only come up like three or [TS]

  four times you know and and if they [TS]

  didn't have the SUV was three or four [TS]

  times they probably could have found [TS]

  some way around you know we could rent a [TS]

  truck for this afternoon or whatever you [TS]

  know but people still choose those [TS]

  because of these occasional needs and [TS]

  that's their it's a very powerful force [TS]

  in decision-making when people are [TS]

  choosing these kinds of these kinds of [TS]

  things there that they're buying are [TS]

  using are owning because they may think [TS]

  you know as much as I could get away [TS]

  with what I need ninety percent of the [TS]

  time with this simpler smaller option [TS]

  whether that's the iOS or a motorcycle [TS]

  you know they they can see as much [TS]

  talking about that most of the time that [TS]

  lasts like one or five or ten percent of [TS]

  the time that what I'm doing can't be [TS]

  done on this thing at all can't easily [TS]

  be done this thing i'm going to be [TS]

  really upset if I don't just get the the [TS]

  bigger more capable thing to begin with [TS]

  and sometimes that actually isn't a [TS]

  rational decision sometimes like you [TS]

  know that as what they could have been [TS]

  fine with the smaller thing and the [TS]

  bigger thing they're actually less happy [TS]

  with it overall but it's very hard to [TS]

  persuade people that up front and a lot [TS]

  of times like the the times where the [TS]

  smaller tool isn't sufficient they stick [TS]

  out in the person's mind and and that [TS]

  that affects the decision-making forever [TS]

  like there have been so many times in in [TS]

  my past travels with during which i have [TS]

  owned a macbook air or 13-inch macbook [TS]

  of some kind and I have regretted not [TS]

  having the 15-inch now I have a 15-inch [TS]

  and i'm looking at like you know I [TS]

  hardly ever need [TS]

  this to be this big ok I really hardly [TS]

  ever like but it does occasionally [TS]

  happen and so I i'm tempted to go [TS]

  smaller for my next one but it's that [TS]

  it's in the back of my mind like he had [TS]

  but I do really like it sometimes [TS]

  so I think looking at the ipad we have a [TS]

  kind of similar problem here where if [TS]

  you're super devoted to doing as much as [TS]

  you can on it you can get quite a lot [TS]

  done but went but people look at that [TS]

  concept and they think yeah but what if [TS]

  you know it but what if i want to do [TS]

  this one fairly you know trivial thing [TS]

  that just by the design of the ipad or [TS]

  by its you know hardware restrictions [TS]

  something just it just can't do or [TS]

  bioessays restrictions very clumsy to do [TS]

  you know if there and you only need one [TS]

  of those things for the idea of an of an [TS]

  ipad being your primary work machine to [TS]

  be dismissed in your mind or two seem [TS]

  impossible and so many people will have [TS]

  like one of those things at least and [TS]

  you i have tons of those things that's [TS]

  one of the reasons I don't do it but you [TS]

  know I think in this case like it's a [TS]

  very hard problem to solve because [TS]

  that's the kind of it just takes like [TS]

  years and years of software maturity and [TS]

  a blossoming third-party ecosystem and [TS]

  advancement in the OS and the interface [TS]

  and everything and the end right now if [TS]

  you are accustomed to the mac it's [TS]

  really easy to just get a bunch of stuff [TS]

  down and honestly the mac has taken a [TS]

  beating in in enthusiast community as [TS]

  recently as everyone it seems like [TS]

  everybody wants to flee from the mac and [TS]

  their that it seems like whenever the [TS]

  ipad or iphone to get better we hear [TS]

  from people who are just like seemingly [TS]

  like can't wait to drop their mac like [TS]

  it's like on fire like oh my god I i I'm [TS]

  rushing these other things because I [TS]

  just hated my max so but thank god i can [TS]

  write and run to the ipad and i don't i [TS]

  don't feel that at all I i love the mac [TS]

  i think the heck is great and my only [TS]

  concern is when Apple messes with the [TS]

  mac in ways that I don't agree with or [TS]

  that I think make it worse but even [TS]

  those are few and far between relatively [TS]

  speaking and the mac is awesome and I to [TS]

  me the mac is my is my work machine and [TS]

  my main machine [TS]

  and i am not looking to constantly flee [TS]

  the things i'm using if they're working [TS]

  fine but you know that's I totally get [TS]

  the driving force that makes people [TS]

  think that way but I do think you know [TS]

  for when somebody like you goes to try [TS]

  the ipad as a as I could work device [TS]

  even for this you know for this one task [TS]

  you tried to do on it when it when you [TS]

  run into one of those walls things that [TS]

  can do it just seems like oh my god this [TS]

  thing is worthless why would anybody [TS]

  ever do this and you know that there's [TS]

  basically went to summarize very long [TS]

  rant there's reasons on both sides and [TS]

  it depends [TS]

  just like everything else that can [TS]

  always be summarized this whole issue of [TS]

  cases ipad use in trying to trying it [TS]

  out on for size [TS]

  remind me of a whole discussion after [TS]

  your pockets I one of the ones with my [TS]

  kids and my own podcast it's mike with a [TS]

  while it does not narrow it down at all [TS]

  we're discussing his use of the ipad and [TS]

  Howie he remembered how it was just like [TS]

  it a accessory thing but now there are [TS]

  so many things that he prefers to do his [TS]

  talking about that sitting in front of [TS]

  his mac with his ipad using his ipad [TS]

  like he's literally sitting in front of [TS]

  his mac but instead of using the magnets [TS]

  in front of him he says that God has [TS]

  ipad propped up in front of him he's [TS]

  using it to do things like sorting [TS]

  through email or whatever a certain [TS]

  classes of tests that he by his own [TS]

  admission or less efficient on the ipad [TS]

  but that that the thing that made him [TS]

  want to use it was that he found the [TS]

  more enjoyable to do on the ipad and [TS]

  this is is not necessarily the factor [TS]

  that is making people try to drop their [TS]

  max like they're hot but different [TS]

  expression but it is like the idea that [TS]

  certain things and I've experienced this [TS]

  too I think we all have with the ipad [TS]

  maybe even Marco once in awhile certain [TS]

  things feel more comfortable to do on [TS]

  the ipad not even ergonomically speaking [TS]

  but just like mentally like somehow that [TS]

  our brain goes into a different state or [TS]

  maybe we're sitting in a different chair [TS]

  move with with mike example he was [TS]

  actually literally sitting in the same [TS]

  chair that is in front but he also [TS]

  talked about doing it in bed or whatever [TS]

  or just I don't know it like just that [TS]

  it feels different to sort of like it [TS]

  your body relaxes and you just kind of [TS]

  like swiping things around on the screen [TS]

  to you know [TS]

  click this message over there scroll [TS]

  down over there look at that I find that [TS]

  a lot of browsing stuff like if i want [TS]

  to read through Twitter like I'm [TS]

  behind i want to catch up on Twitter or [TS]

  something i find it much more [TS]

  comfortable to catch up on Twitter on [TS]

  iOS device than imac even though i know [TS]

  that is more efficient to do on my Mac [TS]

  because i can open the link in a web [TS]

  browser faster because i'm adding so [TS]

  much more powerful and bigger than my [TS]

  click on the link browser window opens [TS]

  there it is it's very fast and hard to [TS]

  switch apt you know like I I know [TS]

  intellectually that if you were to put a [TS]

  stopwatch on door make any kind of [TS]

  objective measure of efficiency you [TS]

  would find that doing that task on the [TS]

  mac is better but it feels better to do [TS]

  it on iOS device and some of the terms [TS]

  of the Leanback experience maybe that's [TS]

  part of it like the written it that it's [TS]

  more relaxing maybe it's just the [TS]

  context switch that we all spend so much [TS]

  time released i do sitting in front of a [TS]

  computer all day that you know sitting [TS]

  down on a couch also in front of a [TS]

  computer but the computer is really flat [TS]

  and you touch it somehow that like it's [TS]

  a mode switch and it feels more relaxing [TS]

  but i think that is that's part of this [TS]

  negative factors into casey's discussion [TS]

  of feeling like this is just you know he [TS]

  was filled with the other side the [TS]

  inefficiency that like I know how to do [TS]

  this in another realm and I have to do [TS]

  it on here and it's like a puzzle for me [TS]

  to solve and it's annoying and it's the [TS]

  worst kind of inefficiency because you [TS]

  know you'd already be done by now if you [TS]

  just did it on the mac right yeah but [TS]

  but the flip side of that is when you [TS]

  acknowledge the inefficiency and then it [TS]

  just it just feels better and I'm not in [TS]

  tight like that i'm not entirely sure [TS]

  what all the different sources of that [TS]

  feeling i know a few of them but i think [TS]

  it's interesting phenomenon and i think [TS]

  i think everyone who is used in iOS [TS]

  devices spell that to some degree even [TS]

  if you're just feeling on your phone [TS]

  like I think it's a better example for [TS]

  Marco doesn't really use iPads that much [TS]

  some things just feel better to do on [TS]

  your phone and groupers talk about how [TS]

  he has preferred device for into it is [TS]

  his phone because it just just feel like [TS]

  the natural place to do a particular [TS]

  activity and it's got to be less [TS]

  efficient like you have you can put your [TS]

  things on the screen if you want to tap [TS]

  a link it's much more of a pain and you [TS]

  go back and all this stuff but it just [TS]

  feels better [TS]

  yeah you know to provide a counterpoint [TS]

  to my earlier lamentations when I was on [TS]

  my way back from the armaments actually [TS]

  at the at the beginning of the year when [TS]

  we all congregated at marcos house [TS]

  I was sitting in the back of errands car [TS]

  with Declan trying to keep him occupied [TS]

  and happy and whatnot then when he [TS]

  wasn't in actively in need of you know [TS]

  entertainment or whatever I was sitting [TS]

  back there with the same ipad mini and I [TS]

  was watching us [TS]

  i was using ipad multitasking and I had [TS]

  typically ways and like a third of the [TS]

  screen on the right hand side in the [TS]

  little multitasking area and in the main [TS]

  window I was either slack or Twitter or [TS]

  occasionally I've we were in a stretch [TS]

  like say the Jersey Turnpike where we [TS]

  didn't really need to worry about you [TS]

  know directions or anything i would have [TS]

  twitter as two-thirds of the screen and [TS]

  slack is a third of the screen or maybe [TS]

  even half-and-half and i have never [TS]

  taken a car trip that felt easier [TS]

  because i was entertained the entire way [TS]

  congrats again on talking to Aaron and [TS]

  stuff and I'm helping aaron and whatnot [TS]

  everything helping Declan and whatnot [TS]

  but when I was just sitting there kind [TS]

  of doing my thing i could not have [TS]

  enjoyed using the ipad more than that in [TS]

  that moment because all the things that [TS]

  used to suck about using iPads [TS]

  constantly double pressing the home [TS]

  button or using the multitasking [TS]

  gestures to go back-and-forth [TS]

  back-and-forth back-and-forth [TS]

  back-and-forth all of that went away [TS]

  when I could even use just two apps [TS]

  simultaneously so in that case it was [TS]

  magnificent being able to to use the [TS]

  ipad and I think using a laptop would [TS]

  have been considerably worse in the [TS]

  backseat of a car is your hurdling down [TS]

  the road because it firm among many [TS]

  other reasons a laptop doesn't have a [TS]

  cellular connection [TS]

  yes I could have tethered to my phone [TS]

  but still it was just it would have been [TS]

  a lot more uncomfortable and so there [TS]

  are definitely times and places and I'm [TS]

  not trying to say that there's [TS]

  consumption versus creation I'm not [TS]

  trying to get into that argument it just [TS]

  so happened that it worked really well [TS]

  in this case for the sorts of things you [TS]

  would want to do in the back are our [TS]

  final sponsor this week is male around [TS]

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  that now listeners to the show by going [TS]

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  check it out go to mail wrapped up net / [TS]

  ATP thanks a lot i reconfigured my email [TS]

  recently and accidentally had got mail [TS]

  route misconfigured from my vertical [TS]

  domain and i could not get a turn back [TS]

  on fast and this is what it's like [TS]

  because you don't even you don't even [TS]

  see all the crap that comes to because I [TS]

  don't really use that email address but [TS]

  but it is publicly visible and so like [TS]

  the web scrapers have long since found [TS]

  it boy [TS]

  but not what a nightmare so I've talked [TS]

  way too much this episode people love [TS]

  you man this is great [TS]

  yeah people are all mad at me and John [TS]

  for being negative Apple last week so we [TS]

  need you to rescue us this man got your [TS]

  listeners back that's it John you played [TS]

  games lately it's one game i wanted to [TS]

  talk about not review this maybe we'll [TS]

  talk about it unlike some other products [TS]

  we spoil the game everything but i just [TS]

  wanted to encourage people to take a [TS]

  look at the game because i have plated [TS]

  and I enjoyed it and I don't want to [TS]

  spoil it for you but i do want to [TS]

  explain to you why you might want to [TS]

  play this game the game is fire watched [TS]

  by campo santo I don't know how to [TS]

  pronounce the name of that I've never [TS]

  actually said it out loud until now it [TS]

  seems like a reasonable guess yeah out [TS]

  in cooperation with our friends at panic [TS]

  makers of transmitting koda and many [TS]

  other fine products and other fun things [TS]

  and they started development in this [TS]

  game is the weird thing for panic to [TS]

  even be involved at all because they are [TS]

  mac and iOS software company not a game [TS]

  maker but they are a lot of gamers on [TS]

  the staff there and this is something i [TS]

  want to try and so that helps to get [TS]

  this project underway and it's a bunch [TS]

  of game veterans actually making the [TS]

  game so this is not a bunch of newbies [TS]

  making this thing it's my type of game [TS]

  if you heard me talk about games on [TS]

  other podcasts I like artsy fartsy games [TS]

  which is a way of saying like not games [TS]

  that are filled and not the equivalent [TS]

  of block west hollywood blockbuster [TS]

  movies that are just like filled with [TS]

  space marines and huge budgets and [TS]

  millions and millions of people buy them [TS]

  this is more like independent arthouse [TS]

  movies that have a limited appeal but [TS]

  the people like to really love them I [TS]

  love games like that this is one of [TS]

  those games and the reason i like want [TS]

  to encourage people do this is back to [TS]

  something I talk about hypocritical and [TS]

  I always do well on the skill barrier to [TS]

  enjoyment of video games i really [TS]

  enjoyed video games I like other people [TS]

  to enjoy them but I know there's some [TS]

  inherent amount of experience with video [TS]

  games that you need to have before you [TS]

  can enjoy one much more so than other [TS]

  media like movies where maybe you need [TS]

  to have some knowledge of like the [TS]

  history of film but in general a really [TS]

  good movie can be enjoyed by anybody you [TS]

  sort of lives in the same societies you [TS]

  at the very least like video games [TS]

  really there really are a lot of skills [TS]

  they need to be required before you [TS]

  don't have to think about those skills [TS]

  and can instead enjoy the game for what [TS]

  it is so Firewatch is one of those games [TS]

  that requires very little of you in [TS]

  terms of knowledge of how video games [TS]

  work skill with the controller whatever [TS]

  there's not a lot of complicated [TS]

  mechanics it's not a lot of rules or [TS]

  systems it doesn't demand lightning-fast [TS]

  reflexes or anything like that it does [TS]

  require you to know how to orient around [TS]

  yourself in 3d space and sort of a [TS]

  first-person type thing but it is very [TS]

  slow and you won't be for the most part [TS]

  rush there is some limited amount of [TS]

  being able to use either a controller or [TS]

  a mouse and a keyboard required of you [TS]

  like it's not you know it's a game you [TS]

  do have to play it but it is very gentle [TS]

  and I think it's an interesting game [TS]

  that it gives me an opportunity to [TS]

  recommend it to people who i wouldn't [TS]

  recommend so you know destiny or one of [TS]

  some other game that I like that I just [TS]

  know is not going to be appealing to [TS]

  people who are into video games just so [TS]

  complicated and so in depth so in my [TS]

  ongoing effort to get more people to [TS]

  like video games i would encourage [TS]

  everybody who either has a playstation 4 [TS]

  or a mac or pc to check out this game it [TS]

  does require a somewhat substantial of [TS]

  mac or pc i figured with the actual [TS]

  requirements are but some people have [TS]

  said on Twitter that it helps if you [TS]

  have a discrete GPU on the mac i [TS]

  don't--that's a hard-and-fast [TS]

  requirement i played on the PlayStation [TS]

  it's nice to have a playstation 4 busy [TS]

  like a run to the PlayStation 4 i have [TS]

  one of those I'm fine i think it runs [TS]

  better on a beefy gaming pc or mac with [TS]

  a big video card but you know from all [TS]

  the people responding on Twitter like [TS]

  you learn [TS]

  nobody has a mac with a good video card [TS]

  anymore they all have the you know [TS]

  integrated graphics people in another [TS]

  discrete graphics in there you know and [TS]

  the laptops who gets three graphics but [TS]

  anyway check that your requirements [TS]

  before you buy it's available on Steam [TS]

  they do have a better refund policy than [TS]

  the apps in the app store so your you [TS]

  might be in luck there [TS]

  it's fairly inexpensive is like 20 bucks [TS]

  or something it's not a long game which [TS]

  you might think oh that's I'm not [TS]

  getting value for money but i think that [TS]

  is a good aspect of the game like this [TS]

  the reason i recommend [TS]

  it is you don't have to sink like a [TS]

  hundred hours into this thing it you can [TS]

  be finished with the game in between [TS]

  three and four hours might be my first [TS]

  run through the game was like three and [TS]

  a half hours you could take much longer [TS]

  if you go slower or whatever but the [TS]

  point is you're not investing your whole [TS]

  life in this game it's more like [TS]

  watching a really long movie or maybe [TS]

  two really long movies so think of the [TS]

  length as a as a benefit to people i [TS]

  think of it like that but as a benefit [TS]

  to people who don't play games so much [TS]

  because you don't want to send them in [TS]

  the game [TS]

  did you know really after the first 25 [TS]

  hours it really starts to get [TS]

  interesting [TS]

  that's not that's a non-starter for [TS]

  people haven't said anything about what [TS]

  the game is about it's called Firewatch [TS]

  it's the ideas like a big house in the [TS]

  middle of the woods that you look around [TS]

  into spot fires in the woods and report [TS]

  them if you're like a forest ranger uh [TS]

  that doesn't tell you anything about the [TS]

  game so what do i do i just go to this [TS]

  place and look out the window it is a [TS]

  narrative type game where there is [TS]

  mostly you're in for the characters and [TS]

  the stories again is not based on [TS]

  mechanics you're not going to be you [TS]

  know you know traversing a tech tree a [TS]

  whore finding resources or leveling up [TS]

  your character doing the other things [TS]

  you typically do in more traditional [TS]

  game this is much more of a narrative [TS]

  driven game all these things that I've [TS]

  said about the game may make people who [TS]

  are into games the so-called hardcore [TS]

  gamers who love games like starcraft and [TS]

  destiny and you know [TS]

  battlefront and all these other things [TS]

  like people love those type of games you [TS]

  know gamey games you know that the [TS]

  quote-unquote self-described gamers may [TS]

  think this is not the game for them and [TS]

  maybe it isn't because i like 10 games [TS]

  like artsy fartsy games but if you [TS]

  demand the challenge of a blood-borne or [TS]

  something you're not going to find it [TS]

  here so I but I feel like gamers already [TS]

  know about this game they know all the [TS]

  review sites they read reviews of it in [TS]

  over this is that the game they're going [TS]

  to like I mostly talking to the people [TS]

  who would think video games that's not [TS]

  for me that you're complicated consider [TS]

  giving the truck it could be like I said [TS]

  I've people on Twitter basket i always [TS]

  ask them have you played the first [TS]

  person game before you have any sort of [TS]

  like medium level of competence of like [TS]

  oh I know which direction I'm pointed in [TS]

  a 3d World and I can walk around and [TS]

  look at things that's really all that's [TS]

  required of you and some minor button [TS]

  pressing if you pass that hurdle give it [TS]

  a try [TS]

  and Mark own cases should definitely [TS]

  play it because it's short and they [TS]

  never play any games and they can both [TS]

  be just fine [TS]

  whether they'll enjoy it or not who [TS]

  knows because I don't get one of them [TS]

  likes artsy-fartsy movies as far as that [TS]

  goes but for everyone else [TS]

  check it out it's really cool and [TS]

  minimum the game looks beautiful even if [TS]

  you just launched a look at the title [TS]

  screen and go [TS]

  damn those guys are good at what they do [TS]

  now serious question can can we pull [TS]

  Merlin on this and do it in half and [TS]

  half or do you really need to dedicate [TS]

  like three or four hours to I don't [TS]

  think you need to do the one sitting I [TS]

  didn't want something accidentally like [TS]

  i was i was saving this for the weekend [TS]

  because i liked to have had the game for [TS]

  a little while to after awhile I was [TS]

  like I don't want to like I want to rush [TS]

  it on a work night or you know be up [TS]

  later whatever to stay for the weekend [TS]

  but last night my wife wanted to do [TS]

  something else instead of watch TV show [TS]

  that makes you want to watch the one [TS]

  that shows that she was just like all [TS]

  find something to myself I said you know [TS]

  I've got fire watching people's people [TS]

  talking about on the internet maybe even [TS]

  just don't know just started maybe I'll [TS]

  just launched its see what it's like or [TS]

  whatever and then I started playing in [TS]

  of course they couldn't stop and you [TS]

  know i just ran through the whole game [TS]

  one setting you do not need to play this [TS]

  entire game one sitting but i would [TS]

  encourage you to play the game and a [TS]

  small number of sittings don't play for [TS]

  five minutes and then leave the next day [TS]

  in five minutes with me for the next day [TS]

  like because it is a narrative because [TS]

  it is all that moving character you need [TS]

  to have some amount of through-line like [TS]

  you wouldn't watch you know it say [TS]

  you're watching like a four-hour movie [TS]

  you would watching five-minute [TS]

  increments what you want to do in two [TS]

  sittings that's probably okay actually [TS]

  it's really not okay because i have [TS]

  different rules for movies but this game [TS]

  i'm gonna say if you want to do in [TS]

  multiple settings that fine if you do it [TS]

  on one is great and I think it's even [TS]

  more powerful that way but asking [TS]

  someone to sit in front of their TV for [TS]

  three to four hours is asking probably a [TS]

  bit too much of someone who's not into [TS]

  games [TS]

  fair enough that i'd like to try i [TS]

  wanted to try to even before you were [TS]

  talking about it but we'll see when I [TS]

  have the time knowing me it'll be it [TS]

  I don't know year and a half men don't [TS]

  like that so yeah it's always going to [TS]

  read any spoilers for it just you'll be [TS]

  fine [TS]

  that's that's also part of the reason [TS]

  was afraid I was gonna get spoiled like [TS]

  better going to get going on this sooner [TS]

  rather than later [TS]

  yeah yeah hopefully we'll hopefully I'll [TS]

  find the time try it soon [TS]

  alright alright thanks a lot two or [TS]

  three sponsors this week [TS]

  Squarespace a glue and mail route and we [TS]

  will see you next week [TS]

  now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

  mean to begin as it was accidental [TS]

  it was accidental [TS]

  John research Marco in kc wouldn't let [TS]

  him because it was accidentally was [TS]

  accidental and you can find show know [TS]

  the day EP die and if your twitter [TS]

  follow them [TS]

  yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

  co-pay rm20 Marco Arment and our AC at [TS]

  Syracuse [TS]

  so here's a question so I i am [TS]

  interested in playing Firewatch i have a [TS]

  that I have this imac i also have a ps4 [TS]

  I generally prefer using a computer for [TS]

  first-person games but I don't want to [TS]

  install steam [TS]

  why not stainless Feinstein's least of [TS]

  your concerns team is nice actually i [TS]

  think that this is a lot of mac users [TS]

  first experience with steam and it looks [TS]

  atrocious and it's filled with like I [TS]

  wonder companies don't get sued for this [TS]

  like you remember the old gumball window [TS]

  widgets the red yellow and green you [TS]

  know when they used to look like they [TS]

  look like glowing spheres well so steam [TS]

  is entirely seems not a native mac [TS]

  application i don't know what it's made [TS]

  out of but they basically took steam and [TS]

  dressed it up in the skin a mac [TS]

  application and you know with their own [TS]

  graphic so they basically copied and [TS]

  pasted the old glowing balls from like [TS]

  10.6 or whatever and put them in the [TS]

  corner of their windows and then just [TS]

  left them there and as the OSS vol.10 [TS]

  710 810 910 it little glowing balls are [TS]

  still out there and you realize that [TS]

  really isn't like nothing on the screen [TS]

  as a negative control it and like nope [TS]

  they're just did is a you know a wolf in [TS]

  sheep's clothing so it doesn't it looks [TS]

  weird doesn't look anything like a mac [TS]

  app or whatever but here's what i like [TS]

  about steam it also doesn't work and [TS]

  install the startup items everywhere [TS]

  it's like not what I did not start out [TS]

  by a while yeah it does want around [TS]

  launch but you can you can turn that off [TS]

  yeah it constantly runs it it puts [TS]

  itself everywhere and it's a terrible [TS]

  app and it's like the well here's what's [TS]

  good about steam it lets you download [TS]

  games and play them which sounds like [TS]

  that's what so what [TS]

  but in the days before steam when you [TS]

  have to download some kind of installer [TS]

  to your windows pc and get the installer [TS]

  to run with on the same on the same pc [TS]

  that other games are also installed on [TS]

  and they would fight each other and you [TS]

  have to fight over graphics card [TS]

  settings there's a reason steam is so [TS]

  popular because it took the terrible [TS]

  world of gaming on the pc not [TS]

  necessarily the mac because it was very [TS]

  little game they're all getting on the [TS]

  pc and made it way less terrible it's [TS]

  still not as good as it should be [TS]

  maybe but I love steam and I even love [TS]

  steam on the mac even though it has a [TS]

  weird updater even though it wants to [TS]

  launch on login items like it does silly [TS]

  things you can stop it from doing them [TS]

  it doesn't come with malware it has [TS]

  better for the most part has better [TS]

  you know and refund policy and sales and [TS]

  trials and all the other things that you [TS]

  can do in early access and stuff better [TS]

  than the app store now that's a high bar [TS]

  but better than the app store for buying [TS]

  games probably have stuff for selling [TS]

  games as well the cable was tweeting [TS]

  today how exciting it was that on the [TS]

  day they launched fire watching steam [TS]

  they had already issued two bug fix [TS]

  updates because I'm statements and steam [TS]

  once your game is accepted to the to the [TS]

  steam store you do updates without any [TS]

  interference at all you just post them [TS]

  they go up immediately [TS]

  yeah I wouldn't mind Apple taking some [TS]

  of their inspiration for the app store [TS]

  from steam if they if they want to know [TS]

  where things could be improved [TS]

  don't look at the apple the app store [TS]

  apps are garbage but don't look at the [TS]

  steam app because the steam app kind of [TS]

  to me the steam at feels like how do I [TS]

  put this gently it feels like not only a [TS]

  Windows app that is running on your Mac [TS]

  not only that because bad enough but it [TS]

  also feels like it is a Windows web app [TS]

  designed to run in internet explorer 3.0 [TS]

  which they have embedded in the app and [TS]

  is running in virtual pc and malaysian [TS]

  through Rosetta emulation on your Mac [TS]

  that's how it feel I think it's better [TS]

  than the mac app store apps you don't [TS]

  you think it's better than the Mac App [TS]

  Store app just in terms of the sheer [TS]

  number of features the ways you can view [TS]

  your data it is not as good as the iOS [TS]

  App Store app which again is not saying [TS]

  much but it is way better than the mac [TS]

  app store at because the Mac App Store [TS]

  app actually works worse than steam and [TS]

  that is saying a lot because the steam [TS]

  app just does not work doing so many [TS]

  stupid little things but wow the Mac App [TS]

  Store app is even worse anyway I would [TS]

  heartily endorse team as a way for mac [TS]

  for Mac users to get and play games even [TS]

  though the place the you buy stuff [TS]

  through his little bit weird and look [TS]

  strange [TS]

  just because you will be successful you [TS]

  will be able to purchase a game it will [TS]

  download it for you when you want to [TS]

  launch you go to steam steam and you can [TS]

  double click it and you'll be able to [TS]

  play the game and you will never be able [TS]

  to get rid of steam again you cannot [TS]

  install a fine and that that's the best [TS]

  thing about steam is like it's that you [TS]

  know all the all the great things about [TS]

  the app store before the appstore say [TS]

  you're done playing game and you want to [TS]

  free up some hard drive space on [TS]

  installing weight is the game gone did I [TS]

  lose everything [TS]

  well behaved modern steam game [TS]

  save all your save stuff and stayed in [TS]

  the cloud and everything so you can [TS]

  install the game to free up disk space [TS]

  know that you can reinstall the game [TS]

  later and get all your stuff back again [TS]

  well-behaved students [TS]

  you have to have some interesting games [TS]

  don't do that and it really annoys me [TS]

  but the good ones do everything right [TS]