The Accidental Tech Podcast

151: The Opposite of Final


00:00:00   hello everybody we are live from las [TS]

00:00:03   vegas with our CES extravaganza [TS]

00:00:06   extravaganza is it extravaganza [TS]

00:00:10   not really no I'm just kidding and say [TS]

00:00:11   we're going to talk about stars for [TS]

00:00:12   three hours as a little exchange between [TS]

00:00:16   one of our listeners and the ever [TS]

00:00:20   watching ever listening up there folks [TS]

00:00:22   there in the cloud that's why I see [TS]

00:00:23   everything [TS]

00:00:24   peter brock power was tweeting at us [TS]

00:00:28   about this and he said an FYI up there [TS]

00:00:30   is hosted on AWS Little Snitch told me [TS]

00:00:33   so AWS Amazon Web Services and little [TS]

00:00:35   stitches a firewall program to tell you [TS]

00:00:37   where computers connected to ya and up [TS]

00:00:39   there on Twitter responded not true we [TS]

00:00:42   built our own stack from the ground up [TS]

00:00:43   and host our service on this stack so [TS]

00:00:46   I'm not quite sure what little snitch [TS]

00:00:47   was on about maybe it's connected AWS [TS]

00:00:49   for some ancillary things but straight [TS]

00:00:51   from the up their horses mouse mouth [TS]

00:00:54   they are not using AWS they have built [TS]

00:00:55   their own stack which is what I was [TS]

00:00:56   talking about the last show whatever [TS]

00:00:57   mysterious technology they're using [TS]

00:00:59   presumably the whole point the company [TS]

00:01:01   is not to write in iOS and mac app that [TS]

00:01:04   connects to s3 like that's not you don't [TS]

00:01:08   I don't think for transfer layer would [TS]

00:01:10   do a start-up and focus on that because [TS]

00:01:12   there's a million of those things [TS]

00:01:13   already [TS]

00:01:13   well I mean they could have also been [TS]

00:01:15   working a layer above that like they [TS]

00:01:17   could have been using easy to servers [TS]

00:01:19   like some other part of AWS as part of [TS]

00:01:21   their overly know just like how I cloud [TS]

00:01:23   uses some AWS stuff and some as your [TS]

00:01:26   stuff as far as we knew forever ago [TS]

00:01:28   yeah but that like what would the user [TS]

00:01:31   may even even a c2 like I don't know it [TS]

00:01:34   just seems it seems counter but that's [TS]

00:01:36   all there is that's all the rest up [TS]

00:01:37   there there's no it's a icon is built on [TS]

00:01:39   top of this whole bunch of other stuff [TS]

00:01:40   like that's just this you can use the [TS]

00:01:42   street the storage back end or view [TS]

00:01:44   movie if you don't have your own data [TS]

00:01:45   centers or whatever you may be good bc [TS]

00:01:47   24 compute stuff but i don't know i just [TS]

00:01:49   always imagine whatever they're doing [TS]

00:01:51   being more interesting than that [TS]

00:01:53   fair enough any other follow-up through [TS]

00:01:56   this and follow up just because it's I [TS]

00:01:58   don't know if there's any information [TS]

00:01:59   here but if you throw in some follow [TS]

00:02:01   just because you couldn't stand not [TS]

00:02:02   having me [TS]

00:02:03   no i mean like i was i had this is a [TS]

00:02:05   topic section before when I said you [TS]

00:02:06   know we talked about this on a pet show [TS]

00:02:08   so it's kind of follow-up but i'm not [TS]

00:02:09   sure how filled information it is a [TS]

00:02:12   friend of mine was messaging me today [TS]

00:02:14   he's like so how do you feel about the [TS]

00:02:15   headphone port going away from the [TS]

00:02:17   iphone 7 and I said a you obviously [TS]

00:02:20   don't know Claud cast and be at what do [TS]

00:02:24   you know what are you talking about that [TS]

00:02:26   i missed some news or something is like [TS]

00:02:28   oh yeah they were talking about it [TS]

00:02:29   before but it wasn't confirmed until [TS]

00:02:30   today I like woody what are you talking [TS]

00:02:32   about like I really thought like that [TS]

00:02:33   Apple had announced that there was gonna [TS]

00:02:35   be no headphone cord on the iphone 7 but [TS]

00:02:37   I forget the regular people don't know [TS]

00:02:39   what confirmed means so this is a former [TS]

00:02:41   is a Forbes article it says the [TS]

00:02:44   headlines iphone 7 leaks confirm in [TS]

00:02:47   single quotes Apple abandoning headphone [TS]

00:02:49   jack so they put they did the work for [TS]

00:02:51   you they put in scare quotes in the [TS]

00:02:53   headline at least have the decency to [TS]

00:02:54   say confirm doing air quotes now confirm [TS]

00:02:57   any way more so we talked about this on [TS]

00:03:00   a path show more rumors more supposed [TS]

00:03:04   park leaks this one has a neat little [TS]

00:03:06   concept image because you can never [TS]

00:03:08   remember story you gotta have someone do [TS]

00:03:09   a mock-up image of the iphone 7 and i'm [TS]

00:03:12   looking at this mock-up image and what [TS]

00:03:15   do you guys think it looks a little thin [TS]

00:03:17   to me but anyway this is more smoke for [TS]

00:03:20   this potential fire of the headphone [TS]

00:03:22   port going why i don't know i think it's [TS]

00:03:23   too early to make any kind of call but [TS]

00:03:26   if I keep it is not that forms a great [TS]

00:03:29   track record but it's making me think [TS]

00:03:31   about it against making you think how [TS]

00:03:33   Apple could explain this inevitability [TS]

00:03:36   if not this year then next to the year [TS]

00:03:38   after the year after and I think a lot [TS]

00:03:40   of the stuff in this article is a good [TS]

00:03:43   way that they might explain it the idea [TS]

00:03:44   being that the phone would be smart [TS]

00:03:47   about where it sends audio output [TS]

00:03:49   depending on context i wish all of apple [TS]

00:03:51   slices were smarter this way all the [TS]

00:03:53   Apple services and devices so if I'm [TS]

00:03:56   listening on my wireless headphones you [TS]

00:03:58   know my car explain to bluetooth I get [TS]

00:04:00   out of the car [TS]

00:04:00   it's just my wireless earbuds or [TS]

00:04:02   whatever I sit down at my desk and it [TS]

00:04:05   switches to outputting through the [TS]

00:04:06   headphone jack of my computer or [TS]

00:04:09   something I mean like situational [TS]

00:04:11   awareness where you don't have to be [TS]

00:04:12   plugging and unplugging things will just [TS]

00:04:14   know based on your location of the [TS]

00:04:16   devices there or your preferred sound [TS]

00:04:17   output devices that and then you say see [TS]

00:04:21   isn't that better than headphone jack [TS]

00:04:22   and say yeah that actually worked that [TS]

00:04:24   would kind of be better than headphone [TS]

00:04:25   jack and lets you could make your phone [TS]

00:04:27   thinner so everybody's happy [TS]

00:04:29   I don't know if that world is in arrive [TS]

00:04:31   in time for the iphone 7 but one way to [TS]

00:04:34   sell the future I guess [TS]

00:04:35   yeah I mean we we talked this to death a [TS]

00:04:38   few episodes back so it is i don't think [TS]

00:04:39   we spend too much time on it but I i do [TS]

00:04:41   think the world of not having the [TS]

00:04:44   headphone jack is probably on its way I [TS]

00:04:46   think as we discussed last time it's [TS]

00:04:48   probably still a few years off mean it i [TS]

00:04:51   think the one of the biggest supports [TS]

00:04:53   for this is to look at the macbook one [TS]

00:04:55   and the macbook one has two ports the [TS]

00:04:58   multi-purpose USB / charging port and a [TS]

00:05:02   headphone jack and they couldn't justify [TS]

00:05:04   any other ports on that but they can [TS]

00:05:06   justify a headphone jack and i think [TS]

00:05:07   that goes to show just how often they're [TS]

00:05:09   used and bluetooth headphones do exist [TS]

00:05:13   because it for quite some time [TS]

00:05:14   there are some decent ones there are [TS]

00:05:17   very few good or even great ones and [TS]

00:05:21   there's a lot of trade-offs to bluetooth [TS]

00:05:22   headphones that make them not only less [TS]

00:05:25   good in some ways would actually [TS]

00:05:26   unusable for certain applications so [TS]

00:05:29   it's it is not a clean transition i'm [TS]

00:05:33   guessing that that one like kind of [TS]

00:05:36   crazy translated million times from [TS]

00:05:38   different languages story that we got [TS]

00:05:40   back then back in a month ago or two [TS]

00:05:42   that one story about how they're just be [TS]

00:05:44   a passive special lightning adapter for [TS]

00:05:46   this new revision of the Lightning port [TS]

00:05:48   that would basically have a DAC on the [TS]

00:05:52   phone and have it be able to send analog [TS]

00:05:55   audio through a cheap passive attempt [TS]

00:05:57   earth through the port into a headphone [TS]

00:05:59   jack port through like a little breakout [TS]

00:06:01   cable i think that's pretty plausible [TS]

00:06:02   and so if they that I think is the most [TS]

00:06:05   plausible explanation I've heard for why [TS]

00:06:08   this might not be a big deal if they can [TS]

00:06:10   make a cheap-ass adapter like that and [TS]

00:06:13   and you know just said that to you or [TS]

00:06:15   even included in the box if it's really [TS]

00:06:16   that cheap and passive they probably [TS]

00:06:18   won't it'll be more likely they would [TS]

00:06:20   sell it for thirty bucks but you know [TS]

00:06:21   the weekend we can dream but i think you [TS]

00:06:25   know where there's smoke there's usually [TS]

00:06:26   some fire and I think there's enough [TS]

00:06:28   smoke around this that I would move it [TS]

00:06:30   from unlikely to somewhat likely [TS]

00:06:35   and I think if we if we consider that [TS]

00:06:37   that like special lightning adapter [TS]

00:06:39   passive adapter thing that makes it all [TS]

00:06:42   that makes it more I don't know [TS]

00:06:46   digestible it's like it makes it suck [TS]

00:06:49   less [TS]

00:06:49   basically with all these type of stories [TS]

00:06:52   like there's a build to the [TS]

00:06:53   inevitability until we eventually get [TS]

00:06:55   the real parts leaks especially with the [TS]

00:06:57   phones you know as the date of the new [TS]

00:06:58   phone approaches were pretty far away [TS]

00:07:00   now so I was thinking that this next [TS]

00:07:03   round of stories about this rumor [TS]

00:07:06   mmm nudge it slightly more towards the [TS]

00:07:09   realm of possibility but it's still so [TS]

00:07:11   far out that it's within the realm of [TS]

00:07:14   things that could end up being totally [TS]

00:07:15   wrong but we'll keep watching keep [TS]

00:07:16   watching it knowledge ever closer and [TS]

00:07:18   we'll go basically know for sure when [TS]

00:07:20   the real parts likes come out because I [TS]

00:07:21   don't think we've had a significant [TS]

00:07:23   iphone revision and a long time where we [TS]

00:07:26   haven't got to look at pretty much every [TS]

00:07:27   piece of this thing all disassembled [TS]

00:07:29   before it arrives it will probably know [TS]

00:07:31   it by april or may I mean up and [TS]

00:07:35   especially like this like you may not [TS]

00:07:36   know everything like this be [TS]

00:07:38   can you not you can't figure out all the [TS]

00:07:40   software features obviously and then [TS]

00:07:42   hardware features sometimes hard to tell [TS]

00:07:44   from parts but things like a doesn't [TS]

00:07:46   have a hole for the headphone port to go [TS]

00:07:48   and we'll be able to tell just by [TS]

00:07:49   looking at cases [TS]

00:07:49   yeah and like the back case is often one [TS]

00:07:51   of the very first part to leak it kid [TS]

00:07:53   probably that's something like we'll [TS]

00:07:55   probably know this one by the spring you [TS]

00:07:56   know really [TS]

00:07:58   alright what's awesome these days Marco [TS]

00:07:59   our first sponsor this week is [TS]

00:08:01   audible.com audible.com has more than a [TS]

00:08:04   hundred and eighty thousand audiobooks [TS]

00:08:06   and spoken word audio products get a [TS]

00:08:08   free 30-day trial at audible.com / ATP [TS]

00:08:11   if you want to listen to it audible has [TS]

00:08:13   it [TS]

00:08:14   listen to audiobooks from virtually [TS]

00:08:15   every genre anytime anywhere you can [TS]

00:08:18   play audibles audiobooks on phones [TS]

00:08:19   tablets computers most Kindles even [TS]

00:08:22   ipods if you're Steven Hackett now audio [TS]

00:08:24   books are great flight long road trips [TS]

00:08:27   even your daily commute you may think [TS]

00:08:28   you don't have time to read books you'd [TS]

00:08:30   be surprised how many audio books you [TS]

00:08:31   can hear each year even if you only [TS]

00:08:33   listen to and from work every day with [TS]

00:08:35   more than a hundred and eighty thousand [TS]

00:08:36   audiobooks and spoken word audio [TS]

00:08:38   products you will find what you're [TS]

00:08:40   looking for [TS]

00:08:41   we have a book recommendation don't we [TS]

00:08:42   indeed believe John has one and i have [TS]

00:08:46   won if you'd like one as well [TS]

00:08:47   well John the time in your next time as [TS]

00:08:48   that [TS]

00:08:48   sounds good or you want to go first no [TS]

00:08:50   no it's cool kids especially since jon [TS]

00:08:53   is going to make fun of my book [TS]

00:08:53   selection so we can definitely save that [TS]

00:08:55   lets do yours then [TS]

00:08:56   yeah shouldn't set it so i really [TS]

00:08:59   enjoyed the book ready player one by [TS]

00:09:02   Ernest Cline which is I made the mistake [TS]

00:09:04   of listening to the uncomfortable about [TS]

00:09:05   it and they basically spent an hour and [TS]

00:09:08   a half talking about how terrible it is [TS]

00:09:09   anyway his second book came out happily [TS]

00:09:13   was in 2015 i could be wrong about that [TS]

00:09:15   and it's called armada and it is not as [TS]

00:09:18   good as ready player one which at this [TS]

00:09:20   point John is seriously rolling his eyes [TS]

00:09:22   but it is good i did like it if you [TS]

00:09:25   happen to be a fan of Ender's Game you [TS]

00:09:26   like this and and or ready player one [TS]

00:09:28   and it is also narrated by wilwheaton [TS]

00:09:31   who is kind of an Internet darling and I [TS]

00:09:34   mean that may not sarcastic way and they [TS]

00:09:36   not derisive way so i definitely [TS]

00:09:38   recommend it's apparently just a shade [TS]

00:09:41   under 12 hours so that's what like two [TS]

00:09:43   ATP episodes and it's available [TS]

00:09:45   inaudible so check it out today with [TS]

00:09:47   more than 180,000 audiobooks and spoken [TS]

00:09:49   word audio products you will find what [TS]

00:09:51   you're looking for [TS]

00:09:52   get a free 30-day trial today by signing [TS]

00:09:54   up at audible.com / ATP that's [TS]

00:09:57   audible.com / ATP thanks to audible for [TS]

00:10:00   sponsoring our show [TS]

00:10:02   ready player one is mostly harmless [TS]

00:10:04   silly garbage like that like we really [TS]

00:10:09   showed yeah we had fun we have fun [TS]

00:10:11   making fun of it on the incomparable but [TS]

00:10:13   it's also it's all in good fun like I [TS]

00:10:15   think it I think it just because we have [TS]

00:10:17   a lot of things words it's easy to [TS]

00:10:18   ridicule the book and then poke added [TS]

00:10:22   and and find flaws and it's still fun [TS]

00:10:25   read [TS]

00:10:25   like I don't regret reading like guess [TS]

00:10:28   that makes me feel a little baby it's [TS]

00:10:30   not i don't like to use guilty pleasure [TS]

00:10:31   because i don't like that concept but [TS]

00:10:33   it's kinda like it's like junk foods [TS]

00:10:34   like a bag of potato chips [TS]

00:10:35   whatever just chomped down on goodness [TS]

00:10:40   all right well anyway I'm yeah you [TS]

00:10:42   should check out that you should check [TS]

00:10:43   out horrible [TS]

00:10:44   alright so what else are we talking [TS]

00:10:45   tonight are talking about tonight we see [TS]

00:10:48   that somebody is fixed apples grievous [TS]

00:10:51   mistake with the macbook one those two [TS]

00:10:54   kinds of mistakes are just two things i [TS]

00:10:56   just happened to see recently and I'm [TS]

00:10:57   sure there's more the macbook one's got [TS]

00:11:00   the one little lonely USB [TS]

00:11:02   sea port on the side of it but USB [TS]

00:11:04   type-c can do all sorts of stuff that's [TS]

00:11:08   why it's one port you can put the power [TS]

00:11:10   through it and you can do all sorts of [TS]

00:11:12   things and so the first link in this to [TS]

00:11:16   link said here is for a Griffin device [TS]

00:11:19   that you plug into USBC port on your [TS]

00:11:21   macbook one and it gives you back the [TS]

00:11:24   MagSafe connector sort of basically a [TS]

00:11:27   magnetic thing that someone tripped over [TS]

00:11:29   the cord it would become disconnected [TS]

00:11:30   now i find it interesting for a couple [TS]

00:11:32   reasons when we first talked about the [TS]

00:11:34   macbook one you know we would of course [TS]

00:11:37   discuss the fact that this one connector [TS]

00:11:39   also replaces magsafe what happened to [TS]

00:11:41   my exams in makes it great doesn't [TS]

00:11:43   everybody loved magsafe does everybody [TS]

00:11:44   love being a literal record not have a [TS]

00:11:46   yank your computer off the you know the [TS]

00:11:48   thing or break your adapter whatever is [TS]

00:11:50   it makes a great feature why would they [TS]

00:11:51   get rid of it and my question but I [TS]

00:11:53   still want to answer do because i don't [TS]

00:11:54   have one of these and you do any of us [TS]

00:11:56   was maybe you don't need magsafe because [TS]

00:11:59   maybe the USBC connector so small that [TS]

00:12:01   if you trip over it it just pops out [TS]

00:12:02   anyway harmlessly like it's the [TS]

00:12:04   connector is so small that magsafe is no [TS]

00:12:06   longer needed [TS]

00:12:08   I still know if that's the case [TS]

00:12:09   obviously Griffin thinks that people [TS]

00:12:11   think it's not the case [TS]

00:12:13   or maybe they know themselves is not the [TS]

00:12:15   case because they're saying hey by this [TS]

00:12:16   adapter whose sole purpose is to provide [TS]

00:12:19   a magnetic breakaway connection for the [TS]

00:12:21   power for your laptop and i don't know [TS]

00:12:26   like I i feel like i would buy this [TS]

00:12:27   thing by the laptop by itself and i [TS]

00:12:29   would see it is tripping over the i mean [TS]

00:12:31   i'm not i would find out more at find [TS]

00:12:33   out by yanking on to the floor watching [TS]

00:12:34   the screen crack or something maybe just [TS]

00:12:36   do some experiments to see but boy it [TS]

00:12:38   seems a long way to go to fill the one [TS]

00:12:41   only port on your thing with this giant [TS]

00:12:42   adapter for dollar giant adapter not yet [TS]

00:12:45   available that gives you a big magnetic [TS]

00:12:49   thing we're weird product where product [TS]

00:12:53   yeah this is I don't know whenever you [TS]

00:12:56   know whenever there's a computer or [TS]

00:12:57   technology thing that comes out and and [TS]

00:13:00   lacks something that came before it [TS]

00:13:03   there's always a market for third [TS]

00:13:05   parties to come in and offer the [TS]

00:13:07   comforts of the previous thing in some [TS]

00:13:09   kind of bolt-on thing the cost between [TS]

00:13:11   fourteen hundred dollars like this is [TS]

00:13:13   like this is true of all technology [TS]

00:13:15   whenever any progress [TS]

00:13:16   made and sometimes it's worth using [TS]

00:13:18   usually it's not in this case and you [TS]

00:13:21   know Griffin stuff I've had honestly [TS]

00:13:23   I've had mixed success with Griffin [TS]

00:13:25   stuff so I i'm not even sure I would [TS]

00:13:27   trust this to to work and be of high [TS]

00:13:29   quality so i don't know i don't really [TS]

00:13:33   see why people would want to to go [TS]

00:13:38   through the hassle of this and i just [TS]

00:13:39   have to kind too kind of like bulk up [TS]

00:13:40   that poor ruin that port I don't know it [TS]

00:13:42   doesn't seem it seems like this is a [TS]

00:13:44   problem that that is not worth solving [TS]

00:13:47   because the solution to it is too clunky [TS]

00:13:49   itself [TS]

00:13:50   I don't even know if it's a problem like [TS]

00:13:52   we don't know the other thing is there's [TS]

00:13:53   no USB pastor this take your one and [TS]

00:13:55   only port this fills it with power and [TS]

00:13:57   that's it so that you know they did I [TS]

00:14:00   can't believe it even provided a pastor [TS]

00:14:02   so you could be sure but that that makes [TS]

00:14:04   it suck really yeah so for forty dollars [TS]

00:14:07   to fill the one poor anyway it shows [TS]

00:14:09   like that that's kind of how private [TS]

00:14:11   companies work i'll use that your you [TS]

00:14:12   hit the nail right on the head saying [TS]

00:14:13   someone always makes one of these things [TS]

00:14:15   that is mostly to make people like you [TS]

00:14:17   said feel more comfortable i used to [TS]

00:14:19   have magsafe and regardless of whether i [TS]

00:14:21   need magsafe now I want to still have it [TS]

00:14:24   because it makes me feel comfortable [TS]

00:14:25   maybe it's needed i don't know i haven't [TS]

00:14:26   done the experiment as far as I know [TS]

00:14:28   nobody has but another solution to this [TS]

00:14:31   would be an apple just put enough [TS]

00:14:33   battery life and that laptop they would [TS]

00:14:34   need to plug it in all day [TS]

00:14:36   you gotta plug it in sometime even if [TS]

00:14:39   you're just putting it somewhere to [TS]

00:14:40   charge someone walks by your desk in an [TS]

00:14:42   accent thing [TS]

00:14:42   yeah but the macbook one has as pretty [TS]

00:14:45   mediocre battery life on the rest of the [TS]

00:14:46   lineup it's pretty small [TS]

00:14:48   yeah this guy like revision will [TS]

00:14:50   presumably get noticeably better but [TS]

00:14:53   it's still gonna probably require being [TS]

00:14:54   plugged in if you're using it all day so [TS]

00:14:56   the next one is another thing that takes [TS]

00:14:58   advantage of the versatility of the USB [TS]

00:15:01   type-c port is even bigger it's a big [TS]

00:15:04   like rectangular thing that pokes out [TS]

00:15:06   the side of your macbook one but it [TS]

00:15:09   gives you a whole mess of ports because [TS]

00:15:10   you too big normal size USB gives us d [TS]

00:15:13   car looks like a CF card and also has a [TS]

00:15:16   pastor for us bc and this one is from [TS]

00:15:18   hyper this looks nice to me i'm just [TS]

00:15:22   talking at work today with someone so i [TS]

00:15:24   think i mentioned in the past that when [TS]

00:15:25   i'm working these days they're cinema [TS]

00:15:27   displays everywhere are well really [TS]

00:15:29   Thunderbolts [TS]

00:15:30   place i should say and I've always been [TS]

00:15:31   so jealous because I've always kind of [TS]

00:15:33   wanted one of those so that i could just [TS]

00:15:34   sit my laptop down plug in just a couple [TS]

00:15:36   of cables and then I be connected to [TS]

00:15:38   ethernet my microphone and and whatnot [TS]

00:15:40   and and this is a fifty-dollar on sale [TS]

00:15:43   you know like kind of many docking [TS]

00:15:45   station and although it doesn't have [TS]

00:15:47   ethernet which a little bit of a bummer [TS]

00:15:49   this is the sort of thing that if I had [TS]

00:15:51   a macbook one I would absolutely stick [TS]

00:15:53   one of these on my desk in and make it a [TS]

00:15:55   little easier to use even like what's [TS]

00:15:57   promising about this too is like you [TS]

00:15:59   know they're there have always been [TS]

00:15:59   similar products although never very [TS]

00:16:02   many of them for thunderbolt and they [TS]

00:16:04   were always basically from like two [TS]

00:16:06   hundred dollars and up [TS]

00:16:08   mm so this it's probably the USB stuff [TS]

00:16:10   is so cheap to make [TS]

00:16:12   even though it is obviously a little [TS]

00:16:13   more limited like technically then the [TS]

00:16:15   Thunderbolt but this is nice [TS]

00:16:17   what's it a few more things first of all [TS]

00:16:19   this is very very small and it like [TS]

00:16:21   seems to fit the profile pretty well of [TS]

00:16:23   the laptop so that's nice to hear you it [TS]

00:16:25   it's small but like it's compared it's a [TS]

00:16:30   small laptop compared to the size light [TS]

00:16:32   add significantly to the laptop [TS]

00:16:33   percentage-wise i feel like i could [TS]

00:16:35   changes you from your little tiny [TS]

00:16:36   portable thing to something that's [TS]

00:16:38   really big here is the thing that [TS]

00:16:39   worries me a lot when i look at it is [TS]

00:16:41   the USBC port the only mechanical [TS]

00:16:44   connection between this again like small [TS]

00:16:47   and absolute size but larger relative [TS]

00:16:49   size is that the only connection to the [TS]

00:16:51   thing like what have you tried to pick [TS]

00:16:52   this thing up from the side of the [TS]

00:16:53   adapter and accidentally grabbed a [TS]

00:16:55   little bit below the spc but would you [TS]

00:16:57   twist and crack this thing off and it [TS]

00:16:58   doesn't seem to have any other means of [TS]

00:17:01   connecting itself the thing other than [TS]

00:17:03   the USBC but i'm sure it's it's [TS]

00:17:04   lightweight and everything just what it [TS]

00:17:06   looks like is extending your laptop [TS]

00:17:08   sideways by an inch but it's not it's [TS]

00:17:11   like I don't know it just seems like it [TS]

00:17:13   is a lever made to break that connector [TS]

00:17:16   yeah good point this well and again you [TS]

00:17:18   can look at this stuff like I i think if [TS]

00:17:21   you're going to be connecting things to [TS]

00:17:24   your macbook on a regular basis the [TS]

00:17:27   macbook one is probably not the right [TS]

00:17:28   model for you you know because we like [TS]

00:17:30   we know a lot of people who have these [TS]

00:17:31   things most of whom love them and the [TS]

00:17:35   the number one thing we hear from these [TS]

00:17:37   people who love them whenever the port [TS]

00:17:38   conversation comes up is they don't [TS]

00:17:40   really are playing in [TS]

00:17:41   so it's fine and I think if you're going [TS]

00:17:44   to be plugging things in just get either [TS]

00:17:46   an air or the presumed soon to be coming [TS]

00:17:50   sky like 13 inch pro which should [TS]

00:17:53   probably be pretty competitive than [TS]

00:17:55   missing lightness wise to the 13 chair [TS]

00:17:58   but we'll see [TS]

00:17:58   yeah i think this though but especially [TS]

00:18:01   the the price like you said Mark I mean [TS]

00:18:02   that is stunningly cheap yeah 50 bucks I [TS]

00:18:05   mean you can't get a thunderbolt cable [TS]

00:18:07   four 55s seriously probably can now [TS]

00:18:10   please don't even know me but you [TS]

00:18:11   couldn't do first [TS]

00:18:13   it reminds me of like a pc peripherals [TS]

00:18:15   because it's like a CF card reader [TS]

00:18:17   really no it's not it's not no it's SD [TS]

00:18:20   and microSD yeah I I maybe I'm [TS]

00:18:22   misjudging the size 10 because [TS]

00:18:23   everything is relative to the size of [TS]

00:18:25   the mackerel keep forgetting how darn [TS]

00:18:26   small thing actually is so yeah but [TS]

00:18:28   anyway the SD of the micro-st it if you [TS]

00:18:32   took out those two slots then you [TS]

00:18:34   wouldn't have such a long lever with [TS]

00:18:36   which to crack off the USBC connector [TS]

00:18:37   but you know there will be a it's almost [TS]

00:18:40   as if I think like go full-length [TS]

00:18:42   internet like seven more slots or go [TS]

00:18:44   even shorter and just add the full-size [TS]

00:18:47   USB you know and the pastor I don't know [TS]

00:18:50   I don't know anyway people apparently [TS]

00:18:51   buying them so excited you can't really [TS]

00:18:54   go that far wrong for fifty bucks and [TS]

00:18:57   and i would definitely recommend for [TS]

00:18:59   people who have their laptop on their [TS]

00:19:01   desk like not for people who are [TS]

00:19:03   constantly picking it up and carrying it [TS]

00:19:04   place to place or if you want to travel [TS]

00:19:06   with it and like if you wanna be like on [TS]

00:19:07   the plane but you have like plain old [TS]

00:19:09   USB peripherals that you need to use or [TS]

00:19:12   you want to be swapping SD card to do [TS]

00:19:14   but you know pulling pictures of cameras [TS]

00:19:16   while you're sitting in your plane seat [TS]

00:19:17   I wouldn't want this thing hanging out [TS]

00:19:19   the side while I'm trying to handle my [TS]

00:19:20   thing on the tray anyway [TS]

00:19:22   well see to me I i think this would [TS]

00:19:24   actually the opposite way i would say [TS]

00:19:25   for a desk you want something with like [TS]

00:19:28   one cable that plugs in and have some [TS]

00:19:30   kind of breakout box with the other [TS]

00:19:31   stuff in it that way you can kind of get [TS]

00:19:33   it away from the side of the computer [TS]

00:19:34   and not have the stress on there every [TS]

00:19:36   single day and kind of make a cleaner [TS]

00:19:38   desk if you can if you can hide that [TS]

00:19:39   stuff somewhere behind a desk or under [TS]

00:19:41   ever whereas the this one I think we [TS]

00:19:44   better for travel because you get [TS]

00:19:45   adaptability to these three different [TS]

00:19:48   port types in one small thing that [TS]

00:19:50   doesn't have itself it's own cable so 44 [TS]

00:19:53   like sighs and [TS]

00:19:55   tidiness in a travel bag full of other [TS]

00:19:57   cable adapters and computer junk this [TS]

00:19:59   would actually be a big win i think i [TS]

00:20:00   was saying on the desk [TS]

00:20:02   mostly because then there's less chance [TS]

00:20:04   of meeting someone lifting up and crack [TS]

00:20:06   nothing off you know because explain [TS]

00:20:08   flat on the desk [TS]

00:20:09   yeah and you can manipulate it and stick [TS]

00:20:11   the things into it you're right like it [TS]

00:20:12   is even better will be a cable that [TS]

00:20:14   snakes away from the thing and it does [TS]

00:20:16   work well for travel in terms of clutter [TS]

00:20:18   but I don't know it just makes me [TS]

00:20:20   nervous just looking at like I keep [TS]

00:20:22   looking at that because of pictures like [TS]

00:20:23   it really is just a little tiny [TS]

00:20:24   connector it just doesn't seem the same [TS]

00:20:28   right [TS]

00:20:28   yeah that that would make me nervous as [TS]

00:20:30   well to be honest but I mean it's not [TS]

00:20:32   the thing is I think you're not going to [TS]

00:20:33   break the computer with that you're [TS]

00:20:35   going to break the adapter because the [TS]

00:20:36   computer has the aluminum case like [TS]

00:20:38   laser-cut opening around that that's not [TS]

00:20:40   you're not going to break the computer [TS]

00:20:41   by twisting the thing I'd feel like [TS]

00:20:42   you're going to break the or maybe it [TS]

00:20:43   would be just a battle between two [TS]

00:20:45   pieces of aluminum see which one I don't [TS]

00:20:48   know the world's least interesting [TS]

00:20:49   battle [TS]

00:20:50   yeah well it's exactly all these people [TS]

00:20:52   are doing like the yeah was it a mkbhd [TS]

00:20:56   whatever was doing his stabbing the the [TS]

00:20:59   iphone 6 suppose that iphone 6 screens [TS]

00:21:01   with a knife and everything we need the [TS]

00:21:03   even more boring equivalent of that of [TS]

00:21:05   let's that stress test the connector on [TS]

00:21:07   this USB hub type thing because that's [TS]

00:21:08   that's our domain if we have a youtube [TS]

00:21:10   channel will be all USB hubs ok you hear [TS]

00:21:13   you heard it here first type of shop [TS]

00:21:15   send us one of these to review along [TS]

00:21:17   with a macbook one that you don't want [TS]

00:21:18   and we will do this to mr. on the air [TS]

00:21:21   pretty remarkable film it on his fancy [TS]

00:21:23   still image camera that's also kind of a [TS]

00:21:25   video camera [TS]

00:21:26   yeah all right anything else on this [TS]

00:21:31   thing I can't believe this is the news [TS]

00:21:32   this week it's like it's this is like [TS]

00:21:34   this is why I hate CES because the only [TS]

00:21:37   news that happens is either like [TS]

00:21:39   pie-in-the-sky stuff that will never [TS]

00:21:41   come out or like USB port news [TS]

00:21:45   it's like it's not with some CS news [TS]

00:21:47   like people keep sending me the stories [TS]

00:21:49   about the like OLED TVs that are going [TS]

00:21:51   to be shown or announced that CS and [TS]

00:21:54   maybe they have been by today but i [TS]

00:21:55   haven't caught up on the story said I [TS]

00:21:57   basically just wait for CS to be over [TS]

00:21:59   and then find the summary stories to [TS]

00:22:01   pick out the three things that were [TS]

00:22:02   actually good or interesting and say yes [TS]

00:22:03   and then just read that that's really [TS]

00:22:05   all but I CS is good for people who are [TS]

00:22:07   interested in TV is you [TS]

00:22:09   they find out that like it's a it's not [TS]

00:22:11   an interesting year where nothing good [TS]

00:22:12   has happened or you find out like [TS]

00:22:14   however still obsessed with 3d or [TS]

00:22:16   everyone is still obsessed with curved [TS]

00:22:17   screens or some other chemical you don't [TS]

00:22:18   like this year the gimmick seems to be [TS]

00:22:20   identical range which I am interested in [TS]

00:22:23   and I hope is an emerging standards and [TS]

00:22:25   will be like this is a picture it's a [TS]

00:22:27   legitimate picture quality improvement [TS]

00:22:29   not something that's chemically like 3d [TS]

00:22:32   and not something that's ridiculous like [TS]

00:22:34   the curve so I I'm glad for that to be [TS]

00:22:39   the new thing this year but if it's the [TS]

00:22:41   new thing this mirror that means all the [TS]

00:22:43   televisions that have any kind of [TS]

00:22:44   support for this year going to be like [TS]

00:22:46   the very first generation that tries to [TS]

00:22:48   support and maybe they're competing [TS]

00:22:49   standards and that's all I got to work [TS]

00:22:50   itself out so it's still not time to buy [TS]

00:22:53   a TV but i'd like to read about that but [TS]

00:22:55   I haven't yet so I don't think so yes is [TS]

00:22:58   a total loss is just like a ninety-eight [TS]

00:23:00   percent loss [TS]

00:23:01   wow what a low bar that we expect it [TS]

00:23:05   God soso John your summary of the TV [TS]

00:23:09   news coming out of CES is I'm ready yet [TS]

00:23:12   that's my i will give next week i will [TS]

00:23:14   know more but my summary is it seems [TS]

00:23:16   like I dynamic ranges the thing is here [TS]

00:23:19   and I don't know whether everyone is [TS]

00:23:22   over the curved screen thing it freaking [TS]

00:23:24   we should we should actually said i [TS]

00:23:27   would love to send you to las vegas for [TS]

00:23:29   this week just just to just to capture [TS]

00:23:31   the misery of that trip that like I [TS]

00:23:34   would be I would go for that if it was [TS]

00:23:36   just to film you being there nobody [TS]

00:23:38   wants to go to see nobody does that's [TS]

00:23:40   the thing that I think people understand [TS]

00:23:42   like for those who know a lot of people [TS]

00:23:45   who cover CS as part of their job [TS]

00:23:48   nobody likes it like people like going [TS]

00:23:50   to back a day people like going to [TS]

00:23:52   Macworld to cover it if you're [TS]

00:23:53   interested in apple stuff people like [TS]

00:23:55   going to w3c people like going to google [TS]

00:23:57   i/o if you're interested in Google's up [TS]

00:23:58   nobody likes going to see us [TS]

00:24:00   nobody i'm i think a lot about who is [TS]

00:24:02   this for I guess it's is it for like [TS]

00:24:04   retailers or advertisers John it's the [TS]

00:24:09   consumer electronics Sean [TS]

00:24:11   no I mean it seems like there's a lot of [TS]

00:24:14   legitimate reasons for some people to be [TS]

00:24:16   there seems like there's a lot of like [TS]

00:24:17   meeting with the reps that happens in [TS]

00:24:19   private meetings that can be very useful [TS]

00:24:21   to people but to actually be on the show [TS]

00:24:23   floor I don't really know who that's for [TS]

00:24:25   necessarily besides like people who are [TS]

00:24:28   tasked with covering it and who as you [TS]

00:24:30   said usually hate this job because it is [TS]

00:24:32   grueling and and pretty pretty intense [TS]

00:24:35   but even people who are meeting with the [TS]

00:24:36   reps behind closed doors I think they [TS]

00:24:38   like the meetings but they wish they [TS]

00:24:39   could meet basically anywhere in the [TS]

00:24:41   world of the CGS like all come to your [TS]

00:24:45   city where is your company located i [TS]

00:24:47   will fly the your city and do i mean i [TS]

00:24:48   guess maybe it seems I just I just never [TS]

00:24:50   heard anyone say I can't wait to go to [TS]

00:24:53   see yes [TS]

00:24:54   nobody not vendors not people who are [TS]

00:24:56   going to meet with vendors like maybe [TS]

00:24:59   the most circles on traveling like [TS]

00:25:00   people who were like some a buyer for a [TS]

00:25:03   big store chain like the best buy person [TS]

00:25:05   or something you want to go to see what [TS]

00:25:06   they're gonna buy for that maybe they [TS]

00:25:08   look forward to it just seems it's like [TS]

00:25:10   the worst of it I think of everything [TS]

00:25:12   that's bad about conferences and [TS]

00:25:14   concentrated and then i can multiply by [TS]

00:25:15   5 kinda like III used to be but at least [TS]

00:25:18   III was exciting for people who weren't [TS]

00:25:20   there like even III was at its worst [TS]

00:25:22   I've ever been to three but i know a lot [TS]

00:25:24   of people have even III was at its worst [TS]

00:25:25   was just completely overblown and nobody [TS]

00:25:29   really you know it's exhausting and [TS]

00:25:30   nobody wanted to cover it [TS]

00:25:31   it was exciting for people who weren't [TS]

00:25:33   there because he would say I can't wait [TS]

00:25:34   to see what announced at e3 so you know [TS]

00:25:37   if you want you want to read the [TS]

00:25:38   coverage you get excited but my [TS]

00:25:40   impression of cs is that people who are [TS]

00:25:42   there don't want to be there and people [TS]

00:25:43   aren't there don't want to read about [TS]

00:25:44   mysterious our second punch this week is [TS]

00:25:48   a glue go to a glue software.com / ATP [TS]

00:25:52   for internet you will actually like [TS]

00:25:54   anyone has worked in a corporate [TS]

00:25:56   environment knows how painful Internet [TS]

00:25:58   can be the contents tail the interface [TS]

00:26:00   is ugly and you can't access on your [TS]

00:26:02   phone or any kind of modern device made [TS]

00:26:04   after the year 2010 now igloo is an [TS]

00:26:06   internet you will actually like because [TS]

00:26:08   it is designed with modern technology [TS]

00:26:10   and modern sensibilities for real [TS]

00:26:12   usability Italy give you the flexibility [TS]

00:26:15   to get your work done how you want where [TS]

00:26:17   you want and whatever device you want [TS]

00:26:19   their truly building a product meant for [TS]

00:26:21   2016 and beyond [TS]

00:26:23   not the nineties [TS]

00:26:24   with a glue internets you can share news [TS]

00:26:27   organize your files coordinate calendars [TS]

00:26:29   and manage projects all in one place [TS]

00:26:32   everything can be optionally social with [TS]

00:26:34   comments like buttons revisions messages [TS]

00:26:37   and anyone can add content based on [TS]

00:26:39   their permissions with drag-and-drop [TS]

00:26:41   widgets and what you see is what you get [TS]

00:26:43   editor in a blue makes use of responsive [TS]

00:26:46   web design so it looks fantastic on all [TS]

00:26:49   your devices whether they exist today or [TS]

00:26:51   where they're going to come out tomorrow [TS]

00:26:52   it will already look good because it is [TS]

00:26:54   fully responsive modern web design with [TS]

00:26:56   modern social and and collaborative [TS]

00:26:58   features that so that you won't have [TS]

00:27:00   your employees going out to use things [TS]

00:27:02   like you know dropbox and Twitter and [TS]

00:27:04   like all the stuff that is public that [TS]

00:27:06   you that you want to keep the stuff [TS]

00:27:07   inside your company inside your internet [TS]

00:27:09   igloo is very corporate friendly they [TS]

00:27:12   that they're very secure the vehicle is [TS]

00:27:13   granting permissions all the stuff that [TS]

00:27:15   you need to sell to your company [TS]

00:27:17   it's even free to use forever for up to [TS]

00:27:19   10 people so check it out today a glue [TS]

00:27:21   software com / ATP free to use up to 10 [TS]

00:27:24   people and very reasonably priced after [TS]

00:27:26   that and at any size you get a free [TS]

00:27:28   trial so check it out today it was [TS]

00:27:30   software com / ATP for that free trial [TS]

00:27:33   get started now thanks a lot to glue the [TS]

00:27:35   internet you'll actually like so a few [TS]

00:27:39   weeks ago we started talking about Swift [TS]

00:27:41   being open sourced and then we got [TS]

00:27:44   sidetracked by i'm not even sure what [TS]

00:27:46   but here we are again scraping at the [TS]

00:27:48   bottom of the barrel so why don't we [TS]

00:27:50   talk a little more about switched open [TS]

00:27:51   source and actually talk about something [TS]

00:27:53   that's cool which is the swift code of [TS]

00:27:54   conduct or if you let me talk with the [TS]

00:27:56   mac pro some more so that without the [TS]

00:27:58   swift code of conduct [TS]

00:27:59   yeah we got to order the equivalent of [TS]

00:28:01   the ball gets a burrowing topic after [TS]

00:28:02   this but the code of conduct is a thing [TS]

00:28:04   that has been happening over the past [TS]

00:28:07   I'd say year so has become more popular [TS]

00:28:09   every sort of open source project or [TS]

00:28:11   volunteer based community thing or [TS]

00:28:14   conferences around sort of any sort of [TS]

00:28:16   ad hoc collection of people especially [TS]

00:28:19   in the tech world has been starting to [TS]

00:28:21   have an actual written down code of [TS]

00:28:24   conduct that is exactly what it sounds [TS]

00:28:25   like it's sort of yeah [TS]

00:28:27   set set of rules or expectations of [TS]

00:28:31   behavior like just to give examples you [TS]

00:28:33   could have a code of conduct for [TS]

00:28:35   I don't know a website where people join [TS]

00:28:38   want to talk about knitting and the code [TS]

00:28:39   of conduct could say if you want to [TS]

00:28:41   participate and admitting forms and talk [TS]

00:28:43   about knitting [TS]

00:28:44   we don't want you to use curse words or [TS]

00:28:47   whatever and then you can decide hey I [TS]

00:28:49   don't want to be part of a community [TS]

00:28:50   where I can't curse so you won't join [TS]

00:28:52   that knitting community right but it [TS]

00:28:54   sets clear expectations like here is how [TS]

00:28:56   we expect people to behave and it gives [TS]

00:28:57   you something like if someone misbehave [TS]

00:28:59   you can point the code of conduct hey we [TS]

00:29:01   have a code of conduct here this is how [TS]

00:29:02   it's going to be these are the rules if [TS]

00:29:04   you don't like it you should go [TS]

00:29:05   someplace that's a different set of [TS]

00:29:06   rules and it's like that for open source [TS]

00:29:10   projects for conferences where like I'm [TS]

00:29:12   going to show this conference is going [TS]

00:29:13   to be a conference my favorite [TS]

00:29:14   programming language and there's going [TS]

00:29:17   to be talks and everything what are the [TS]

00:29:18   expectations what what kind of behavior [TS]

00:29:20   isn't allowed what who [TS]

00:29:22   how how are the people in this community [TS]

00:29:24   expected to be a there's been minimal [TS]

00:29:27   push back to the idea of a code of [TS]

00:29:29   conduct is a lot of nerds are very [TS]

00:29:30   literal-minded and don't really see the [TS]

00:29:33   nuances and things is a well code of [TS]

00:29:35   conduct doesn't actually make people [TS]

00:29:36   behave in a certain way you're right it [TS]

00:29:37   doesn't but by writing it down you're [TS]

00:29:39   setting expectations i can do for kids [TS]

00:29:41   or whatever there any sort of that it [TS]

00:29:44   just it's it's more comfortable to know [TS]

00:29:46   what is expected because that was [TS]

00:29:48   everybody decide if they want to be a [TS]

00:29:50   part of a community with this set of [TS]

00:29:53   sort of rules and guidelines if you know [TS]

00:29:55   we're going to get interesting thing if [TS]

00:29:57   you think not being allowed to curse is [TS]

00:29:58   stupid you know right away this is not [TS]

00:30:01   in any community for me I should go [TS]

00:30:03   someplace else where people are knitting [TS]

00:30:04   and also like the curse right and on a [TS]

00:30:09   minute stuff in terms of like making [TS]

00:30:10   jokes other peoples expense or like any [TS]

00:30:14   sort of aggressive behavior and even [TS]

00:30:18   just right now stuff like no violence no [TS]

00:30:20   hitting other people so I guess mostly [TS]

00:30:21   like that you do for little kids you set [TS]

00:30:23   the expectations of you know here's how [TS]

00:30:25   you expected to behave in preschool [TS]

00:30:26   no biting your friends expect you to [TS]

00:30:28   share the teacher is talking expect you [TS]

00:30:30   to listen you know everybody eats at [TS]

00:30:33   this time and maps at this time or [TS]

00:30:34   whatever you doesn't mean that's all [TS]

00:30:36   going to happen but you just want to [TS]

00:30:37   write it down and I said the pushback is [TS]

00:30:41   mostly of people thinking that you are [TS]

00:30:46   you saying if we don't have a code of [TS]

00:30:47   conduct we allow those things are the [TS]

00:30:49   stuff [TS]

00:30:49   to go without saying or writing it down [TS]

00:30:50   makes it seem like we're we're telling [TS]

00:30:54   people that are coming here that are [TS]

00:30:55   going to behave badly why do we need to [TS]

00:30:56   write down stuff like don't murder [TS]

00:30:57   people like they should know that [TS]

00:30:59   already or are you trying to make it [TS]

00:31:00   sound like we're a bunch of murderers [TS]

00:31:01   here or really what's under the covers a [TS]

00:31:04   lot of it is [TS]

00:31:05   say you're just coming up with the code [TS]

00:31:08   of conduct can be like especially like [TS]

00:31:10   programming projects or whatever like if [TS]

00:31:14   there are debates about technical issues [TS]

00:31:15   which we'll get to in a second debate [TS]

00:31:18   the issue don't debate the person don't [TS]

00:31:20   know ad hominem attacks when you're [TS]

00:31:22   discussing some features and programming [TS]

00:31:23   language or open-source project don't [TS]

00:31:26   call the other people other person's [TS]

00:31:27   jerk or an idiot [TS]

00:31:29   do not attack the person or that person [TS]

00:31:30   is personal history keep your debate to [TS]

00:31:33   the topic at hand and again this may [TS]

00:31:35   sound like yeah these all sound like [TS]

00:31:37   reasonable rules whatever it's like [TS]

00:31:38   little things you do for kids but at a [TS]

00:31:40   certain point people push back against [TS]

00:31:42   that an example is the linux kernel [TS]

00:31:43   mailing list where linus torvalds or [TS]

00:31:47   penis or ever you want to set the [TS]

00:31:49   creator of linux very often is that uses [TS]

00:31:53   very salty language so again like [TS]

00:31:54   bending form of linux kernel mountain [TS]

00:31:57   was totally allowed to use curse words [TS]

00:31:58   that's in there you know if they had a [TS]

00:31:59   contract which i'm not sure if you do [TS]

00:32:01   but if they did it would be in there [TS]

00:32:02   because that's that's sort of what to [TS]

00:32:04   expect and has been known to say pretty [TS]

00:32:06   mean things about people not just about [TS]

00:32:09   their thing you know like it's it's a [TS]

00:32:11   it's a there is a fine line am i calling [TS]

00:32:14   when I say this is the stupidest idea [TS]

00:32:16   I've ever heard [TS]

00:32:17   I'm kind of criticizing the idea but I'm [TS]

00:32:19   also kind of being mean about it or [TS]

00:32:21   whatever anyway that community has [TS]

00:32:23   pushed back against the idea of trying [TS]

00:32:24   to be more civil to each other or more [TS]

00:32:26   civil to each others ideas or anything [TS]

00:32:28   like that so that's you know that's the [TS]

00:32:29   kind of community one if you were to [TS]

00:32:31   come in there and they were to try to [TS]

00:32:32   come up with a code of conduct and they [TS]

00:32:34   make a set of rules that past behavior [TS]

00:32:35   doesn't fit into the people with the [TS]

00:32:37   past behavior feel like they're now [TS]

00:32:38   being excluded from the community that [TS]

00:32:39   they're important part anyway all this [TS]

00:32:42   is a big grand way to say that Swift is [TS]

00:32:44   doing what I think is the right thing [TS]

00:32:45   which is from the very beginning having [TS]

00:32:48   a go to conduct and I look at the code [TS]

00:32:49   of conduct and it seems pretty saying [TS]

00:32:52   and and pretty tame and i think it is a [TS]

00:32:55   good thing for anybody whether it's in a [TS]

00:32:58   preschool or knitting club or an open [TS]

00:33:01   source project or website [TS]

00:33:02   to our web form or anything to write [TS]

00:33:05   down their code of conduct as early as [TS]

00:33:07   possible and revisited as needed and [TS]

00:33:10   amended and clarify and so on so forth [TS]

00:33:13   just to have a starting point and a [TS]

00:33:15   guideline instead of just assuming [TS]

00:33:16   everybody will behave and all agree [TS]

00:33:18   about what proper behavior is it's [TS]

00:33:20   pretty sad that it's come to this point [TS]

00:33:22   but i think that the one universal [TS]

00:33:26   internet truth is that even if you don't [TS]

00:33:29   act like a petulant child upfront anyone [TS]

00:33:32   on the internet is but the smallest push [TS]

00:33:34   away from being a petulant child and and [TS]

00:33:37   i agree with you this is a good thing to [TS]

00:33:39   have this reminds me of the post by was [TS]

00:33:42   randi harper's that right that because [TS]

00:33:44   that shows what happens if you don't [TS]

00:33:45   have a code of conduct and if you don't [TS]

00:33:47   think about these issues right so she [TS]

00:33:50   had posted this is freebsd or well the [TS]

00:33:52   the woman who used to be known as [TS]

00:33:54   previously girl she posted recently [TS]

00:33:57   really really good and not terribly long [TS]

00:33:59   post about how she was treated in the [TS]

00:34:00   bsd community and its really pretty [TS]

00:34:02   deplorable and in its in you could argue [TS]

00:34:06   just like Marco said that is in no small [TS]

00:34:08   part because they didn't really have an [TS]

00:34:09   established code of conduct and then [TS]

00:34:11   even when they did if you believe what [TS]

00:34:13   she says which I do you know they didn't [TS]

00:34:14   act they didn't act fairly once once [TS]

00:34:18   there were issues escalated which is [TS]

00:34:21   really too bad but that will put a link [TS]

00:34:23   to that in the show notes in and if you [TS]

00:34:25   work in any sort of community I i highly [TS]

00:34:29   recommend reading her post because it it [TS]

00:34:32   was fascinating and a code of conduct by [TS]

00:34:35   as many people that does not guarantee [TS]

00:34:37   good behavior because there's issues of [TS]

00:34:38   enforcement and those debates about how [TS]

00:34:40   should things be enforced is it [TS]

00:34:42   enforceable at all like another reason [TS]

00:34:44   people shy away from code of conduct as [TS]

00:34:45   I think it opens up this big can of [TS]

00:34:47   orange nail off the debates but these [TS]

00:34:48   are these are important things to talk [TS]

00:34:50   about and it's better to talk about them [TS]

00:34:51   before anything has happened like sorted [TS]

00:34:54   out amongst yourselves not in not in [TS]

00:34:57   light of some actual event because it's [TS]

00:34:59   so much harder to figure it out in life [TS]

00:35:00   no it's very difficult to come up with a [TS]

00:35:03   good set of rules and figure out how [TS]

00:35:05   you're going to enforce them and to [TS]

00:35:06   follow through on it but it's so much [TS]

00:35:08   better to engage in that process than to [TS]

00:35:12   bury your head in the sand because [TS]

00:35:13   engagement process will first of all [TS]

00:35:14   people making the policies that will [TS]

00:35:16   force you to think about things like [TS]

00:35:17   hopefully you'll go and say let me look [TS]

00:35:19   at the people's code of conduct let me [TS]

00:35:20   look what they wrote down and I think [TS]

00:35:22   collectively all the codes of conduct of [TS]

00:35:24   various the communities and open-source [TS]

00:35:26   products are getting better by looking [TS]

00:35:27   at each other in the open source kind of [TS]

00:35:29   way and say what are they run down how [TS]

00:35:30   they phrase this what kind of all I [TS]

00:35:32   didn't even think of that we should put [TS]

00:35:33   that into because I believe that but it [TS]

00:35:34   wouldn't have even occurred to me to [TS]

00:35:35   write it because i'm not in that group [TS]

00:35:37   of marginalized people and didn't [TS]

00:35:38   realize that was the thing we had to [TS]

00:35:40   write down but i totally agree with that [TS]

00:35:41   now that i see it and you know get it [TS]

00:35:43   all down ahead of time and then you're [TS]

00:35:46   gonna have you no incidents and then you [TS]

00:35:49   have to figure out how to deal with them [TS]

00:35:50   and then you look at half of the palpa [TS]

00:35:52   dealt with events and read you know it [TS]

00:35:53   read Randy's thing and say here's how [TS]

00:35:55   this community tried to deal with this [TS]

00:35:57   event and here here's how it went badly [TS]

00:35:59   how can we avoid that [TS]

00:36:01   what kind of policies can we have in [TS]

00:36:02   place to help with it no one's gonna be [TS]

00:36:03   perfect it's not a guarantee of anything [TS]

00:36:05   it just shows that you are engaged in [TS]

00:36:08   the process that you are committed to [TS]

00:36:09   the idea that you can manage your [TS]

00:36:12   community to be what you wanted to be to [TS]

00:36:15   be a more welcoming community to be a [TS]

00:36:17   successful community for the kind of [TS]

00:36:19   people that you want you can make a code [TS]

00:36:21   of conduct that sets totally different [TS]

00:36:23   kinds of rules but it's so much better [TS]

00:36:24   to just think about like Who I want what [TS]

00:36:27   I want here [TS]

00:36:28   do I want people who are really [TS]

00:36:30   technically skilled but also really [TS]

00:36:32   really angry and mean all the time if [TS]

00:36:34   you want that like right into your code [TS]

00:36:36   of conduct like that there's an [TS]

00:36:38   expectation you'll be berated and curse [TS]

00:36:40   that and we only accept people who have [TS]

00:36:44   the highest of skills i'd like to build [TS]

00:36:46   the community you want for yourself [TS]

00:36:47   whatever it is that you want but it's [TS]

00:36:50   much better to to take on that task as [TS]

00:36:53   an actual thing rather than falling [TS]

00:36:55   ass-backwards into it's sort of like you [TS]

00:36:58   just end up with this community and [TS]

00:36:59   you're not quite sure how you got there [TS]

00:37:01   so that that's what I think the [TS]

00:37:03   important buttons and switches very [TS]

00:37:05   sensible and they're coming it [TS]

00:37:06   relatively late in the game to Swift was [TS]

00:37:08   an open source project until recently [TS]

00:37:09   and I think they're benefiting from [TS]

00:37:12   all the other code of conduct that have [TS]

00:37:15   come before them and at this point it's [TS]

00:37:19   kind of the type of thing where if you [TS]

00:37:20   are a community or an open source [TS]

00:37:22   project without a code of conduct people [TS]

00:37:26   are going to ask why why don't you have [TS]

00:37:29   one [TS]

00:37:30   maybe you should think about not the [TS]

00:37:31   same your bed or anything but they're [TS]

00:37:32   saying you may not have thought too much [TS]

00:37:34   about this but history has shown that is [TS]

00:37:37   a good thing to have and the active [TS]

00:37:39   thinking about it will lead you to be a [TS]

00:37:41   better community [TS]

00:37:43   agreed alright what else is going on [TS]

00:37:46   with Swift this is a program every topic [TS]

00:37:48   enough market talks about all these [TS]

00:37:49   under the radar but I save one for here [TS]

00:37:51   I think you got to this one's kind of [TS]

00:37:52   esoteric but I continue to follow the [TS]

00:37:55   Swift evolution mailing list or try to [TS]

00:37:57   follow anyway it's still still pretty [TS]

00:37:58   high volume where the people talk about [TS]

00:38:00   the future Swift and make proposals and [TS]

00:38:03   debate them and go through all sorts of [TS]

00:38:06   things this big process of evolving [TS]

00:38:08   Swift is becoming more formalized with [TS]

00:38:11   different phases of whatever anyway this [TS]

00:38:14   one particular proposal that I thought [TS]

00:38:16   started to get at the heart of what [TS]

00:38:18   seems to be one of the big internal [TS]

00:38:19   struggles between Swift and the [TS]

00:38:22   community formerly known as the [TS]

00:38:24   objective-c development community [TS]

00:38:26   I guess they're still not as that but [TS]

00:38:27   anyway all the people are writing all [TS]

00:38:29   the code objective-c an apple saying you [TS]

00:38:32   guys should think about moving Swift [TS]

00:38:34   some point because we are and this is a [TS]

00:38:37   debate around things that are allowed [TS]

00:38:40   and disallowed static and dynamic you [TS]

00:38:43   know free or clamp down and this [TS]

00:38:46   particular one is about whether classes [TS]

00:38:49   should be final by default in Swift as [TS]

00:38:51   in if you don't say anything one way or [TS]

00:38:56   the other in your defining class and [TS]

00:38:57   Swift should that class b sub classical [TS]

00:39:00   and commendable and be able to do you [TS]

00:39:02   know extended and have things [TS]

00:39:04   overwritten or by default should be all [TS]

00:39:06   closed up and you can't screw with it [TS]

00:39:07   and it's not really a question about [TS]

00:39:10   capability because no one is saying all [TS]

00:39:13   classes should be all closed up and [TS]

00:39:15   final for all classes should be open [TS]

00:39:17   it's just a question of what the [TS]

00:39:18   defaults are in the defaults have two [TS]

00:39:21   effects one is obviously affects [TS]

00:39:24   the actual code because a lot of people [TS]

00:39:26   just take the default right you know and [TS]

00:39:29   then so if if no one does anything and [TS]

00:39:30   they just do class and I don't know [TS]

00:39:32   about this particular keyword don't [TS]

00:39:33   think about it what do they get by [TS]

00:39:35   default and the second thing is by [TS]

00:39:37   choosing the default if people think [TS]

00:39:38   about it for a little bit they'll see [TS]

00:39:41   it's like a signal from the design [TS]

00:39:43   language we think most of your classes [TS]

00:39:45   should be like this it's the default but [TS]

00:39:48   if you have special needs make your [TS]

00:39:51   class like this and like having a java [TS]

00:39:56   you know the default is not final [TS]

00:39:58   I don't know my job i think that's the [TS]

00:39:59   case and so what they're saying is by [TS]

00:40:01   default in Java of you declare a class [TS]

00:40:03   you can sub class but that that's that's [TS]

00:40:06   we think that's the common case but if [TS]

00:40:07   you have special needs like say for [TS]

00:40:09   performance reasons or you really don't [TS]

00:40:11   want people extending your class you can [TS]

00:40:13   declare it to be final by adding this [TS]

00:40:14   other keyword and so that means that [TS]

00:40:17   most people just like a Java class blah [TS]

00:40:19   blah blah blah [TS]

00:40:20   they're all getting glasses it could be [TS]

00:40:21   some class and extended all that stuff [TS]

00:40:23   because that's the default and also [TS]

00:40:25   philosophically speaking it's so clear [TS]

00:40:27   the java really expect people to [TS]

00:40:28   subclass your stuff and that the [TS]

00:40:30   exception to the rule is all you wanna [TS]

00:40:32   make you think finally all closed off or [TS]

00:40:34   whatever sorry if I'm getting this job [TS]

00:40:35   mrs. this job a default thing backwards [TS]

00:40:38   i haven't touched job in a really long [TS]

00:40:40   time somebody named job and not 13 in [TS]

00:40:43   the chat says it is not final by default [TS]

00:40:45   and I think they would probably know [TS]

00:40:47   because their name is java nuts well [TS]

00:40:49   yeah there's no way they could have [TS]

00:40:50   changed their name to java not know but [TS]

00:40:52   anyway yeah i think my recollection [TS]

00:40:55   anyway so the proposal for swift is to [TS]

00:40:58   default final and this would make swift [TS]

00:41:00   one of those languages is saying most of [TS]

00:41:03   the time when you make glasses we expect [TS]

00:41:05   them to be like done but sometimes you [TS]

00:41:08   might want someone to be able to extend [TS]

00:41:09   your class and in that case we want you [TS]

00:41:12   to have to put a special keyword or [TS]

00:41:14   whatever in there to say all other [TS]

00:41:16   people like I'm writing a base class and [TS]

00:41:18   other people are supposed to subclass me [TS]

00:41:20   and override these three methods do this [TS]

00:41:22   other thing and this is really again [TS]

00:41:25   it's not really like a technical debate [TS]

00:41:26   because both things would still be [TS]

00:41:27   possible this is really a sort of battle [TS]

00:41:29   for the heart and soul of what Swift is [TS]

00:41:32   and what objective c has been [TS]

00:41:34   I i pulled a little quote here from [TS]

00:41:36   Jordan row so i think is a someone that [TS]

00:41:38   Apple although it's very difficult to [TS]

00:41:40   tell miss evolution list when people are [TS]

00:41:42   speaking for themselves as users of [TS]

00:41:44   swiftor as contributors to the open [TS]

00:41:46   source product and when they're speaking [TS]

00:41:48   as Apple employees kind of implicitly no [TS]

00:41:51   one has ever speaking for Apple because [TS]

00:41:52   no one speaks for Apple except the team [TS]

00:41:54   coco i guess but when there's an apple [TS]

00:41:56   com in their email address like just I [TS]

00:41:58   don't notice that is their opinion carry [TS]

00:42:01   more weight i still haven't quite sorted [TS]

00:42:02   out the sort of uneasy dance between at [TS]

00:42:07   apple.com people like Apple employees [TS]

00:42:09   working on swift and VA the unwashed [TS]

00:42:11   masses of the Swift community and how [TS]

00:42:13   that power balance works and most of the [TS]

00:42:17   most part the back-and-forth has been [TS]

00:42:20   very polite and mostly so i think that [TS]

00:42:22   most people realize look apples doing [TS]

00:42:24   most of the work here and I made the [TS]

00:42:26   language Apple is going to do most of [TS]

00:42:27   the work here so we can have some input [TS]

00:42:29   the bottom line isn't heart you will [TS]

00:42:30   never develop Swift on your own or you [TS]

00:42:32   seven people are going to take swift and [TS]

00:42:34   run with that [TS]

00:42:35   no probably not so all you can really do [TS]

00:42:37   is give your opinion anyway a lot of [TS]

00:42:40   what this default final thing comes down [TS]

00:42:42   to is the expectation by Objective C [TS]

00:42:45   programmers that any sort of framework [TS]

00:42:47   anything in the framework that's like [TS]

00:42:49   not behaving correctly or that you're [TS]

00:42:51   making a subclass of that you can just [TS]

00:42:53   override methods that you want to behave [TS]

00:42:56   in a slightly different way like you can [TS]

00:42:58   even do a lot of interesting things with [TS]

00:43:01   UI kit and a half get by overriding [TS]

00:43:04   things in subclasses even things that [TS]

00:43:07   you know overriding them in ways maybe [TS]

00:43:09   that you know to turn something into a [TS]

00:43:11   no operand make something happen a side [TS]

00:43:13   effect when it didn't have before even [TS]

00:43:15   to do things like me objective-c runtime [TS]

00:43:16   reach in and do what I think they called [TS]

00:43:19   methodists whistling where you just [TS]

00:43:20   reach in there and you screw with the [TS]

00:43:22   implementation of a base class not even [TS]

00:43:24   a subclass but you say you know you've [TS]

00:43:25   got a blonde method i would like you [TS]

00:43:27   I'll save a reference to what the [TS]

00:43:29   original blonde method was but instead [TS]

00:43:31   point your entry for the blog method to [TS]

00:43:32   my code that will do some other crap and [TS]

00:43:34   then call your code and that will modify [TS]

00:43:35   everybody uses this grass not my sub [TS]

00:43:37   class but the base glass everywhere and [TS]

00:43:39   those are the types of things you can do [TS]

00:43:42   when classes are not entirely closed off [TS]

00:43:44   when you have access to their guts [TS]

00:43:45   can screw with them and then you know [TS]

00:43:47   subclassing above and beyond that so i [TS]

00:43:49   get back to what Jordan Rhodes said here [TS]

00:43:50   he says supporting arbitrary code [TS]

00:43:53   injection into someone else's framework [TS]

00:43:54   is a non goal for swift perhaps even an [TS]

00:43:56   anti goal if you replace a method and [TS]

00:43:59   someone else's class you don't actually [TS]

00:44:00   know what semantics that relying on of [TS]

00:44:02   course Apple code will have bugs in it [TS]

00:44:03   trying to patch over those bugs in your [TS]

00:44:04   own code is one obviously not an answer [TS]

00:44:06   apple support but also too fraught with [TS]

00:44:09   peril and three likely to break in the [TS]

00:44:10   next OS release this is referring [TS]

00:44:12   specifically to third-party developers [TS]

00:44:14   saying when things are open and able to [TS]

00:44:18   be screwed with sometimes that's the [TS]

00:44:19   only way we can ship hard a map because [TS]

00:44:21   you've got a bug somewhere deep in your [TS]

00:44:22   framework and sometimes we can you sub [TS]

00:44:25   classes and enough for us to fix and I'm [TS]

00:44:27   to the region to the guts and and mess [TS]

00:44:28   with a method just to make our appt not [TS]

00:44:30   crash we can't wait for you to fix the [TS]

00:44:32   bug apple and a point 1 release because [TS]

00:44:34   that could be two months around we need [TS]

00:44:35   to ship now and our application doesn't [TS]

00:44:37   run on the new OS that you're about to [TS]

00:44:39   release so we love to be able to go into [TS]

00:44:42   some framework thing and new [TS]

00:44:44   quantitative methods are messing with in [TS]

00:44:46   a certain way to work around some [TS]

00:44:48   strange bug or even it's just a simple [TS]

00:44:50   like an animation bug or something that [TS]

00:44:51   crashes you're out but nobody else is [TS]

00:44:53   that third-party developers are used to [TS]

00:44:56   be having the freedom of the objective-c [TS]

00:44:58   runtime to mess with these things but [TS]

00:44:59   Swift really doesn't want that type of [TS]

00:45:02   thing to happen Swift would like it if [TS]

00:45:04   in the future that the you know that [TS]

00:45:08   that is not you know get it's not [TS]

00:45:09   something I want to support they don't [TS]

00:45:10   want you to be able to reach into [TS]

00:45:11   anyone's framework apples or anybody [TS]

00:45:13   else's and say oh you have a bug in [TS]

00:45:15   there I'm gonna fix your mug for you or [TS]

00:45:17   I want your thing almost does what i [TS]

00:45:19   want but this is one behavior doesn't [TS]

00:45:21   have I would like it that if you did [TS]

00:45:22   this one thing I actually didn't trigger [TS]

00:45:23   this other action so I'm just going to [TS]

00:45:25   reach into your guts and screw with it [TS]

00:45:26   and programmers to get used to that [TS]

00:45:29   freedom it's kinda like a that's the [TS]

00:45:32   last resort but it's nice that it's [TS]

00:45:33   there but if you are a developer of [TS]

00:45:35   frameworks you don't know everything to [TS]

00:45:37   the guts your craft messing with it is [TS]

00:45:39   like you don't know what you don't know [TS]

00:45:40   what the semantics of my framework are [TS]

00:45:42   you don't know what invariance the ear [TS]

00:45:45   violet your-your-your violated by [TS]

00:45:47   messing with that value I don't want you [TS]

00:45:48   touching my this this member variable [TS]

00:45:50   you're not even supposed to exist that [TS]

00:45:51   might disappear and then s next OS [TS]

00:45:53   version I don't want you messing with [TS]

00:45:55   ending and things that Michael because [TS]

00:45:56   you don't you don't have [TS]

00:45:57   source code instead even if you did is [TS]

00:45:58   my framework is supposed to be like a [TS]

00:46:00   black box to you just use the public API [TS]

00:46:01   don't mess with my implementation and i [TS]

00:46:05   thought this this battle which is linked [TS]

00:46:07   to the MJ sighs blog post a link to a [TS]

00:46:11   bunch of discussion and to the man with [TS]

00:46:14   itself without losing my list i know [TS]

00:46:16   this is country was fascinating because [TS]

00:46:17   it really does get at the heart of the [TS]

00:46:20   old guard vs the new guard and Swift and [TS]

00:46:23   I really want to hear both of your [TS]

00:46:25   opinions as I because i don't know what [TS]

00:46:28   the c-sharp world is like but I do know [TS]

00:46:29   what the objective c worlds like so and [TS]

00:46:31   Marco if he's ever had to reach into [TS]

00:46:33   some objective c framework and screw [TS]

00:46:35   with it to get his application ship and [TS]

00:46:37   Casey what he thinks of this entire [TS]

00:46:39   battle between the the world of [TS]

00:46:41   framework authors vs the world of [TS]

00:46:43   application developers [TS]

00:46:45   I mean I've never had to swizzle to do [TS]

00:46:48   anything that to me is a is over the [TS]

00:46:52   line of like you really really shouldn't [TS]

00:46:55   do that like that is more dangerous [TS]

00:46:56   subclassing things that that are [TS]

00:47:00   intended to be subclassed in especially [TS]

00:47:03   in uikit I do that a lot and or not a [TS]

00:47:06   lot but I you know I've done that you [TS]

00:47:08   know numerous times over the years i'm [TS]

00:47:10   pretty sure overcast does it does a [TS]

00:47:11   little bit of that reinventing my own [TS]

00:47:15   methods to override parent methods in [TS]

00:47:18   those sub classes that are intended to [TS]

00:47:19   be overwritten I've done that almost I [TS]

00:47:22   totally get it from the developer [TS]

00:47:24   perspective of almost always there is [TS]

00:47:26   something you want to do an app that is [TS]

00:47:29   that there's no other way to do it [TS]

00:47:31   besides sub classing up some UI kit [TS]

00:47:34   thing and you know including my own [TS]

00:47:36   child version of a method and and just [TS]

00:47:38   hoping I call super at the right time if [TS]

00:47:40   I have to at all and just hope nothing [TS]

00:47:42   bad happens [TS]

00:47:43   testing it on the one released that I [TS]

00:47:45   had access to and then shipping and [TS]

00:47:46   hoping it doesn't break in the future [TS]

00:47:47   that to me and and this is all like you [TS]

00:47:51   know your your subclassing but I want to [TS]

00:47:53   do some subclassing public method so [TS]

00:47:55   there is some documentation on them some [TS]

00:47:58   public expectation of how they should [TS]

00:47:59   behave they're fairly stable so that has [TS]

00:48:03   never actually caused problems that i [TS]

00:48:04   know of to do that that way [TS]

00:48:07   and they're there really have been a lot [TS]

00:48:09   of these occasions where the there's a [TS]

00:48:11   limitation in the in the public API [TS]

00:48:14   there's just no better way to do this or [TS]

00:48:17   there is no lived with no other way to [TS]

00:48:19   do this at all and so you have to do [TS]

00:48:22   stuff like that [TS]

00:48:22   this is one of those things where in [TS]

00:48:24   theory it would be nice if you never had [TS]

00:48:26   to do this and if they were if you can [TS]

00:48:28   have all the technical advantages of not [TS]

00:48:31   doing this in a similar way that in [TS]

00:48:33   theory it would be nice if every mac app [TS]

00:48:35   with sandboxed you know and then in [TS]

00:48:37   practice these these strict technical [TS]

00:48:40   limitations get in the way of reality in [TS]

00:48:44   real-world use and they they kind of [TS]

00:48:46   require a level of of competence and [TS]

00:48:50   perfection and expansiveness from apple [TS]

00:48:53   and it's frameworks that in reality [TS]

00:48:55   probably won't come and so it's one of [TS]

00:48:58   the key in theory it's great in three [TS]

00:49:01   the having everything be final by [TS]

00:49:03   default and having no overrides possible [TS]

00:49:05   that sounds great for for academic [TS]

00:49:08   theoretical safety but in practice I [TS]

00:49:12   don't think modern developers with [TS]

00:49:15   apples frameworks are really able to go [TS]

00:49:18   that way the reality that is just not it [TS]

00:49:21   doesn't support that it does not [TS]

00:49:23   apple is not that great and developers [TS]

00:49:25   aren't that flexible to to be required [TS]

00:49:29   to avoid this entire class of [TS]

00:49:31   functionality and possible bug [TS]

00:49:33   avoidances and bug fixes that that [TS]

00:49:35   simple things like subclass overrides [TS]

00:49:38   can provide yeah you know it's really [TS]

00:49:40   hard [TS]

00:49:41   let me start by just quickly [TS]

00:49:43   establishing the c-sharp unsurprisingly [TS]

00:49:45   takes the same approach to this is javas [TS]

00:49:47   except where you say final i would say [TS]

00:49:49   sealed so III know it's seriously [TS]

00:49:52   totally different languages where yeah [TS]

00:49:54   right exactly that's why it is a java [TS]

00:49:55   club no not at all [TS]

00:49:56   so yeah so it's sealed classes to me not [TS]

00:50:00   final but that everything else is [TS]

00:50:02   exactly the same and they are not sealed [TS]

00:50:04   by default and in fact it is striking [TS]

00:50:06   even within Microsoft frameworks to see [TS]

00:50:08   something that sealed [TS]

00:50:09   that's very peculiar that being said I [TS]

00:50:13   think I think the problem is that man [TS]

00:50:17   and John you alluded to this earlier so [TS]

00:50:20   much [TS]

00:50:20   objective-c seems to be about [TS]

00:50:22   subclassing and up over time even from [TS]

00:50:28   my perspective of someone who doesn't [TS]

00:50:29   live in it seems like that starting to [TS]

00:50:31   go away between blocks between should [TS]

00:50:34   something else until my tongue anyway [TS]

00:50:35   it's going away but a lot of legacy [TS]

00:50:39   objective-c seems to be about [TS]

00:50:40   subclassing and subclassing when the [TS]

00:50:45   author of that class hasn't deliberately [TS]

00:50:48   decided for that to be subclass is [TS]

00:50:51   inherently dangerous and so much of [TS]

00:50:54   Swift seems to be about at least in [TS]

00:50:57   comparison to objective-c about [TS]

00:50:59   preventing danger about having stronger [TS]

00:51:01   typing about doing more compile time to [TS]

00:51:04   check and make sure you're not doing [TS]

00:51:05   something stupid so much about Swift [TS]

00:51:08   seems to be about preventing danger and [TS]

00:51:11   about being safer and having [TS]

00:51:14   carte-blanche access with a few [TS]

00:51:16   exceptions to subclass anything is [TS]

00:51:18   inherently dangerous and so it seems to [TS]

00:51:24   me that the academic answer is [TS]

00:51:28   unequivocally that classes should be [TS]

00:51:30   final by default that being said one of [TS]

00:51:34   the things I've struggled with lately [TS]

00:51:36   and co-worker of mine that we we've [TS]

00:51:38   worked together on a couple projects [TS]

00:51:40   lately it's been a really interesting [TS]

00:51:42   experience because he is extremely [TS]

00:51:45   academic or at least that's the way I [TS]

00:51:47   think of him he really likes to do [TS]

00:51:48   things by the book and he really likes [TS]

00:51:50   to do things the rightist way possible [TS]

00:51:52   by comparison of course i like to do [TS]

00:51:55   that too but by comparison I feel like [TS]

00:51:57   I'm considerably more pragmatic or [TS]

00:51:59   perhaps loosey-goosey is maybe how he [TS]

00:52:02   would describe it i would say pragmatic [TS]

00:52:03   and I come down I think in the same way [TS]

00:52:08   that Marco does that [TS]

00:52:10   yes academically everything should be [TS]

00:52:12   final by default but realistically I [TS]

00:52:15   don't see how that's really possible and [TS]

00:52:17   what I think looking at it from my point [TS]

00:52:20   of view what's what's difficult about [TS]

00:52:21   this is Apple has a tendency to kind of [TS]

00:52:24   assume they know better than everyone [TS]

00:52:25   and so even if we had classes final by [TS]

00:52:32   default [TS]

00:52:34   I think it's pretty clear that Apple [TS]

00:52:35   wouldn't allow classes to be extended in [TS]

00:52:39   subclassed very often because they tend [TS]

00:52:41   to assume we know better than you you [TS]

00:52:43   shouldn't touch this and well in [TS]

00:52:46   principle that should be true that Apple [TS]

00:52:48   should know better than us in reality [TS]

00:52:50   there's so many just minor bugs and [TS]

00:52:53   issues and in things that that [TS]

00:52:54   developers need to do in order to get [TS]

00:52:57   around small problems that I don't think [TS]

00:52:59   that's reality and so in the end the [TS]

00:53:04   academic in me says yes it should be [TS]

00:53:06   final by default but I i come down with [TS]

00:53:09   Marco that this seems to be a little too [TS]

00:53:12   broad and a little too aggressive a [TS]

00:53:14   change to be to be right [TS]

00:53:16   is there an objective-c like at keyword [TS]

00:53:18   or something for doing the equivalent of [TS]

00:53:20   final are sealed [TS]

00:53:21   I don't think it's possible so my take [TS]

00:53:24   on this so far from looking at this [TS]

00:53:25   thread and thinking about it a lot is [TS]

00:53:27   that Swift seems to be like Casey point [TS]

00:53:30   out like that the whole thing with Swift [TS]

00:53:32   is it's trying to be trying to be less [TS]

00:53:37   open let's open to interpretation less [TS]

00:53:40   open to possibilities than objective c [TS]

00:53:43   in terms of world is variable [TS]

00:53:44   initialized when will be initialized can [TS]

00:53:46   I do what can I guarantee about these [TS]

00:53:48   things do I at one point do I have a [TS]

00:53:50   half initialize object floating around [TS]

00:53:52   somewhere in my thing like all you know [TS]

00:53:54   can I be sure that this method i'm [TS]

00:53:56   calling is going to exist in this thing [TS]

00:53:57   how sure can i be sure I want to be some [TS]

00:54:01   of that is for performance some of us [TS]

00:54:03   for safety suffice for both but that is [TS]

00:54:04   definitely the the direction Swift is [TS]

00:54:06   going it's trying to have its cake and [TS]

00:54:08   eat it too is like how we do things that [TS]

00:54:09   are safer and we do things that are [TS]

00:54:12   faster and we can do it with you know [TS]

00:54:15   with with less typing and less code must [TS]

00:54:17   cover be fewer bugs and so you know more [TS]

00:54:20   power more safety more speed [TS]

00:54:21   everything's good right but less [TS]

00:54:23   flexibility is kind of floating around [TS]

00:54:24   in there rattling around alright more [TS]

00:54:26   power more safety more speed is it as [TS]

00:54:28   flexible as it used to be well how do [TS]

00:54:30   you define flexibility and app kit and [TS]

00:54:33   the objective-c AP is have really really [TS]

00:54:35   have been built around the ideas of [TS]

00:54:37   subclassing so much so that it seems [TS]

00:54:40   like this is the expectation if not of [TS]

00:54:42   the framework offers then at least of [TS]

00:54:44   the application developers that [TS]

00:54:47   if you have some kind of problem uh [TS]

00:54:49   maybe you can solve with the subclass [TS]

00:54:51   right maybe maybe that class has [TS]

00:54:53   everything you need but you need to add [TS]

00:54:55   a little extra functionality so subclass [TS]

00:54:57   it and categories are like some class [TS]

00:54:59   too much trouble because it million [TS]

00:55:01   other places inside the framework that [TS]

00:55:02   use any string and throw category and a [TS]

00:55:04   string now all your strength of about [TS]

00:55:06   thirty method yay like a very sort of [TS]

00:55:10   open to like this is this is a giant [TS]

00:55:14   world's toys and you can screw with that [TS]

00:55:16   world wise and and swift rise to do [TS]

00:55:18   something else which has extensions [TS]

00:55:19   which are like categories like how you [TS]

00:55:21   want to throw a method on on every [TS]

00:55:22   string or number in your thing go ahead [TS]

00:55:24   you want to make a new operator that [TS]

00:55:26   works on all integers you can do that [TS]

00:55:28   like ya go nuts but it tries to do it in [TS]

00:55:30   a safer way so given that safety is such [TS]

00:55:33   a concern of the language huh [TS]

00:55:37   I think it's natural it fits the Swift [TS]

00:55:39   language to say final by default and [TS]

00:55:43   furthermore i think that the technique [TS]

00:55:45   of building user interface libraries [TS]

00:55:48   where everything is assumed to be [TS]

00:55:50   subclassed able by everybody leads to a [TS]

00:55:53   substantial amount of the sadness that [TS]

00:55:55   we good resuscitates the weird [TS]

00:55:57   subclassing and eventually in rare cases [TS]

00:55:58   this whistling to happen because not [TS]

00:56:01   because like the the application [TS]

00:56:03   developers are bad but because the [TS]

00:56:04   people making the framework aren't [TS]

00:56:07   giving like when they're writing you [TS]

00:56:09   know all these classes that make up the [TS]

00:56:10   frameworks that people use their not [TS]

00:56:13   thinking about designing for subclass [TS]

00:56:16   ability versus not there there and [TS]

00:56:18   whatever mindset there and it's like [TS]

00:56:20   someone could subclass me so i should [TS]

00:56:22   make this class of classical but they're [TS]

00:56:24   also probably thinking what was going to [TS]

00:56:27   subclass this one or they're thinking [TS]

00:56:29   when I need to update this class [TS]

00:56:30   boy I'm about the updated classic new [TS]

00:56:33   major version of this OS what about [TS]

00:56:36   people who subclass the old one by [TS]

00:56:38   breaking their crap by changing and it's [TS]

00:56:40   like well I can't no I can't really know [TS]

00:56:41   what they did in their sunglasses like I [TS]

00:56:43   had no real way of expressing the things [TS]

00:56:45   that I didn't expect to vary versus the [TS]

00:56:47   things that I did and if they over this [TS]

00:56:49   method and and did some weird thing or [TS]

00:56:51   there is something you know timing [TS]

00:56:52   ordering thing or having to do with this [TS]

00:56:55   that I don't know what the subclasses [TS]

00:56:56   doing and that the thing I think that [TS]

00:56:59   final default [TS]

00:57:00   will force people do is especially [TS]

00:57:03   framework brothers think more about [TS]

00:57:05   which parts of this framework should be [TS]

00:57:08   some classical like what what are the [TS]

00:57:11   extension points what are the things can [TS]

00:57:12   that can vary versus the things that can [TS]

00:57:14   vary maybe they come to the same [TS]

00:57:17   decision [TS]

00:57:17   this is the thing about the final [TS]

00:57:18   default maybe it turns out that the [TS]

00:57:20   people who are writing uikit or whatever [TS]

00:57:22   like the next swifty version you know is [TS]

00:57:25   they're very core foundation Swift as [TS]

00:57:27   they work their way up the stack maybe [TS]

00:57:28   those people who are writing those [TS]

00:57:29   families will come to the same [TS]

00:57:30   conclusion that all the same classes [TS]

00:57:31   that you can override in UI kit but [TS]

00:57:33   you'd also be able to you override and [TS]

00:57:34   some swifty equivalent of the same type [TS]

00:57:37   of UI framework like they would they [TS]

00:57:40   were did you wouldn't lose any [TS]

00:57:41   flexibility at all but at least they [TS]

00:57:43   will then forced to think about it i [TS]

00:57:45   would imagine what they come up with is [TS]

00:57:47   to to reduce the surface area of things [TS]

00:57:51   that you can mess with to make it [TS]

00:57:54   clearer what what classes you're [TS]

00:57:56   expected to subclass and maybe the [TS]

00:57:59   documented better like how you how [TS]

00:58:01   you're expected to subclass like how [TS]

00:58:03   does a well-behaved subclass of this [TS]

00:58:04   thing you know is it possible to [TS]

00:58:06   sunglasses in a way that makes the [TS]

00:58:08   little break with the next step date of [TS]

00:58:10   this thing or just making some classes [TS]

00:58:11   not some classical all because you're [TS]

00:58:13   not supposed to mess with that if you [TS]

00:58:14   really need to mess with it you should [TS]

00:58:15   instead extend it or use composition to [TS]

00:58:19   make your object have one of these [TS]

00:58:21   instead of be one of these and it just [TS]

00:58:25   seems like a more natural fit to Swift [TS]

00:58:26   roommate was I think long-term forcing [TS]

00:58:29   everybody involved in by changing the [TS]

00:58:31   default forcing everybody involved to [TS]

00:58:33   think more about subclassing instead of [TS]

00:58:35   it just being the default like well of [TS]

00:58:37   course I get some glasses everything [TS]

00:58:38   it's like it's my wrist it's like you [TS]

00:58:40   know it's my right it's like the First [TS]

00:58:42   Amendment freedom of speech and freedom [TS]

00:58:43   to subclass thinking more about it will [TS]

00:58:46   will cause everybody involved both the [TS]

00:58:48   framework colors and the programmers to [TS]

00:58:50   try to to try to reduce the sort of the [TS]

00:58:55   ante pattern that we see in the existing [TS]

00:58:57   frameworks where everything is up for [TS]

00:58:59   grabs and anytime something updates [TS]

00:59:01   nobody is really sure about what they're [TS]

00:59:03   breaking because they have no idea what [TS]

00:59:04   people subclass inhale so I understand [TS]

00:59:08   all of that but the problem I come down [TS]

00:59:11   on is I don't think Apple would be a [TS]

00:59:14   good citizen of this mindset and this is [TS]

00:59:17   whatever and this is what i was saying [TS]

00:59:19   earlier that apple would assume no all [TS]

00:59:23   of our stuff is flawless [TS]

00:59:25   we don't want you to subclass this [TS]

00:59:27   there's no reasonable reason for you to [TS]

00:59:29   ever have to subclass this so we're not [TS]

00:59:32   going to allow you to and I don't think [TS]

00:59:34   that they would be pragmatic enough to [TS]

00:59:37   realize well we don't see any particular [TS]

00:59:42   reason that anyone would need to [TS]

00:59:44   subclass this class but you never know [TS]

00:59:48   and you shouldn't hurt anything if you [TS]

00:59:50   do so will just allow you to what what [TS]

00:59:53   is the opposite of final key word in [TS]

00:59:55   Swift you know I whatever it may be you [TS]

00:59:57   know so well market is not final and [TS]

00:59:57   know so well market is not final and [TS]

01:00:00   it and I just don't think they'll be a [TS]

01:00:02   good citizen of this environment I think [TS]

01:00:03   other framework authors might because [TS]

01:00:06   they seem to be less aggressive for lack [TS]

01:00:09   of a better word but i don't i just [TS]

01:00:12   don't think apple will be good citizens [TS]

01:00:13   of that environment [TS]

01:00:15   no I mean modern apple is pretty is [TS]

01:00:18   restricted by default and in many ways [TS]

01:00:20   towards developers and in most ways that [TS]

01:00:23   has worked out well for them and so that [TS]

01:00:26   that pattern of being restricted by [TS]

01:00:28   default is it something that is so [TS]

01:00:31   ingrained in them that I don't think [TS]

01:00:34   they're going to revert course in that I [TS]

01:00:37   mean objective-c is only as flexible [TS]

01:00:40   loosey-goosey as it is because its [TS]

01:00:43   ancient and it came from a time and a [TS]

01:00:46   cult and a culture and a company that [TS]

01:00:48   was very different from today's apple [TS]

01:00:49   and where their dynamism was was the [TS]

01:00:52   goal and and was considered very [TS]

01:00:54   advanced for the time now modern Apple [TS]

01:00:58   does things like this we're like you [TS]

01:01:00   know Swift will be all locked down and [TS]

01:01:03   and rigid and and strict and final by [TS]

01:01:07   default that like I see them doing this [TS]

01:01:09   mostly because it just fits in with with [TS]

01:01:13   the way they see the things they see now [TS]

01:01:15   is being correct and in many ways these [TS]

01:01:18   things go in weight and programming you [TS]

01:01:19   know like what we've programming is is [TS]

01:01:22   not a young practice anymore it's been [TS]

01:01:24   going on for decades things go in and [TS]

01:01:27   out of fashion and you know and there [TS]

01:01:29   are trends and there are fashions and [TS]

01:01:31   there are you know fads and everything [TS]

01:01:33   and open versus closed loose loose [TS]

01:01:37   typing vs strict typing dynamic vs [TS]

01:01:40   statically all these things go in a [TS]

01:01:41   fashion at different times often just [TS]

01:01:44   reacting to what was popular [TS]

01:01:46   previously I think they just go in [TS]

01:01:48   cycles and we're in a cycle now we're [TS]

01:01:51   what is in fashion today is strictness [TS]

01:01:55   and formalism and compile time check [TS]

01:01:58   compile-time safety apple is right up [TS]

01:02:01   there with everyone else with with Swift [TS]

01:02:04   it in that regard and also in just the [TS]

01:02:07   environment that apps running with being [TS]

01:02:09   sit with you know iOS being locked down [TS]

01:02:11   sandboxed everything [TS]

01:02:13   Mac App Store being sandbox only if [TS]

01:02:15   anybody's the mac app store whole [TS]

01:02:17   separate discussion having technical [TS]

01:02:19   blocks in front of calling private api [TS]

01:02:22   is an app store apps things like that [TS]

01:02:24   like this is the direction Apple is [TS]

01:02:26   going and has been for quite some time [TS]

01:02:28   so I i agree that this is not i wouldn't [TS]

01:02:32   expect today's Apple too if given a [TS]

01:02:35   choice to redesign something from [TS]

01:02:37   scratch as they have with Swift to take [TS]

01:02:39   the option to say you know what we're [TS]

01:02:41   going to let people so class our stuff [TS]

01:02:43   no they're looking for ways to lock it [TS]

01:02:45   down and I think ultimately I i think [TS]

01:02:49   what we've learned as a profession as [TS]

01:02:51   programmers over the last few decades of [TS]

01:02:54   having popularized oo programming i [TS]

01:02:58   think what we've learned is that [TS]

01:02:59   subclassing really is messy and has tons [TS]

01:03:03   of anti-patterns and tons of potential [TS]

01:03:06   for weird unforeseen bugs and problems [TS]

01:03:09   and a lot of dysfunction that becomes [TS]

01:03:11   possible without programming and of [TS]

01:03:12   course the strip everything but I think [TS]

01:03:15   as a working programmer III don't look [TS]

01:03:18   around look around my friends and I see [TS]

01:03:20   you know people who are all programmers [TS]

01:03:22   who are kind of evaluating like people [TS]

01:03:24   who are smartly print Simmons I can you [TS]

01:03:25   know kind of evaluating like what how we [TS]

01:03:27   should be doing is moving forward and [TS]

01:03:29   subclassing in general is going out of [TS]

01:03:32   fashion very quickly among programs not [TS]

01:03:34   just not just among apple and Swift but [TS]

01:03:36   among all programs i know subclassing is [TS]

01:03:38   really out like it is it is going out it [TS]

01:03:41   is possibly out now so you can look at [TS]

01:03:45   Apple you can say as I have that I [TS]

01:03:47   really don't see them choosing any [TS]

01:03:49   differently on this if given the choice [TS]

01:03:50   i think i see them going final by [TS]

01:03:52   default [TS]

01:03:53   just because it's apple and that's how [TS]

01:03:55   they are these days but also I think [TS]

01:03:57   there's enough support from programmers [TS]

01:04:00   now for that you can't really say Apple [TS]

01:04:03   is exclusively at fault ignoring what [TS]

01:04:05   everyone's saying I think you can say [TS]

01:04:06   you can make a good case for there being [TS]

01:04:08   enough support the apples kind of making [TS]

01:04:10   the right call for the whole community [TS]

01:04:11   yeah that's the thing so to look at it [TS]

01:04:14   from the flip side you know we don't [TS]

01:04:17   know the sorts of things that Apple has [TS]

01:04:20   to deal with you know we don't know the [TS]

01:04:22   sorts of crazy ridiculous hack [TS]

01:04:25   that third-party developers do that [TS]

01:04:27   aren't as skilled as the Brent Simmons [TS]

01:04:29   of the world you know the what makes a [TS]

01:04:31   brand Simmons really good at what he [TS]

01:04:33   does is that he knows when a hack is is [TS]

01:04:36   the right answer and when it's not [TS]

01:04:38   typically since it's being called a hack [TS]

01:04:41   the answer is not often but we don't see [TS]

01:04:44   the sorts of BS they have to put up with [TS]

01:04:46   by the really shoddy developers that [TS]

01:04:47   that aren't really thinking things [TS]

01:04:49   through properly and so I think if i [TS]

01:04:53   were an apple shoes it's easy to get [TS]

01:04:56   lulled into trying to lock things down [TS]

01:04:59   because you genuinely do feel like you [TS]

01:05:02   know better and when you're looking at [TS]

01:05:03   all these really disgusting hacks you do [TS]

01:05:06   know better [TS]

01:05:07   it's not just a feeling of knowing [TS]

01:05:08   better you do know better but the [TS]

01:05:11   problem is it's just it's the bazooka [TS]

01:05:13   approach to something that that really [TS]

01:05:16   you need a scalpel for and I mean I [TS]

01:05:19   think what makes this discussion so [TS]

01:05:20   fascinating what makes me enjoy [TS]

01:05:24   engineering sorry dr. drank so much is [TS]

01:05:27   that it's these sorts of difficult [TS]

01:05:30   decisions that make our job so much fun [TS]

01:05:33   you know 22 way these options and figure [TS]

01:05:36   out what is the right answer but also I [TS]

01:05:38   think you can you can look at like [TS]

01:05:39   modern-day Apple as you know in be in [TS]

01:05:42   the position of authority if you look at [TS]

01:05:44   things like the appstore restrictions [TS]

01:05:46   like private api restrictions like [TS]

01:05:47   sandboxing on both platforms but [TS]

01:05:49   especially in the mac i think if Apple [TS]

01:05:52   presented with the option of do you let [TS]

01:05:55   developers ship something that needs to [TS]

01:05:57   ship and and this is like as you [TS]

01:05:59   mentioned like this is you know you [TS]

01:06:01   might be able to say well if you're if [TS]

01:06:03   you're smart enough [TS]

01:06:04   you're allowed to break the rules but [TS]

01:06:05   that isn't first of all that isn't [TS]

01:06:07   usually true and you still generally [TS]

01:06:09   shouldn't because a it's still a bad [TS]

01:06:12   idea and be you probably aren't smart [TS]

01:06:14   enough but even even for people who are [TS]

01:06:18   smart enough they still probably [TS]

01:06:19   shouldn't be doing that because everyone [TS]

01:06:22   is done at some point while programming [TS]

01:06:23   and you know that the idiot who wrote [TS]

01:06:27   that was probably just your past self [TS]

01:06:29   but anyway if you look at like that the [TS]

01:06:33   problems of shipping shipping things the [TS]

01:06:35   problems of like you know in the real [TS]

01:06:36   world especially like so much of the [TS]

01:06:38   business these days as consultant and as [TS]

01:06:40   you know like from being insulting [TS]

01:06:42   shipping is often of utmost priority [TS]

01:06:46   above things like doing things in [TS]

01:06:49   exactly the best architectural way or [TS]

01:06:51   best practices you know you just gotta [TS]

01:06:53   ship stuff and and that's it but that [TS]

01:06:56   isn't all that is an apples problem an [TS]

01:06:57   apple doesn't necessarily play by those [TS]

01:06:59   rules with the way it treats other [TS]

01:07:01   developers if Apple's given the choice [TS]

01:07:04   of letting developers ship more [TS]

01:07:07   functional stuff more quickly at the [TS]

01:07:09   expense of of security or restrictions [TS]

01:07:13   or calling private api's apple doesn't [TS]

01:07:15   choose to let them ship things apple [TS]

01:07:17   says you know what that's not our [TS]

01:07:19   problem we would rather have you not [TS]

01:07:21   ship a product at all or ship a lesser [TS]

01:07:24   product or ship a later product then [TS]

01:07:27   break any of these rules and there's no [TS]

01:07:29   better example of that than everything [TS]

01:07:31   that's ever happened the mac app store [TS]

01:07:32   like Apple would rather lose apps to [TS]

01:07:35   that to the app stores and to their [TS]

01:07:36   platforms they would rather lose apps [TS]

01:07:38   completely or have apps be reduced [TS]

01:07:42   functionality and lose features over [TS]

01:07:44   time warden or never have certain [TS]

01:07:46   features they would rather not allow [TS]

01:07:48   those things or have a laugh fewer apps [TS]

01:07:50   or have later or worse apps then have [TS]

01:07:52   apps that are better in a more [TS]

01:07:54   permissive environment sure everything I [TS]

01:07:57   do in the mac app store is that much [TS]

01:07:58   forethought that because a lot of [TS]

01:08:00   unforeseen consequences unforeseen by [TS]

01:08:02   Apple as well is that they have a goal [TS]

01:08:04   in mind and realize there's be difficult [TS]

01:08:06   to get from there from here so i think [TS]

01:08:07   that's often side of a guy getting back [TS]

01:08:10   to have something both you said earlier [TS]

01:08:11   about what will apple do like that you [TS]

01:08:14   know we can trust Apple this because [TS]

01:08:15   they're going to lock everything down [TS]

01:08:16   because that's the kind of company that [TS]

01:08:19   they are i think it's appropriate for [TS]

01:08:23   Apple to be more conservative because [TS]

01:08:25   they're not just a company that writes a [TS]

01:08:27   bunch of frameworks people use they are [TS]

01:08:29   the platform they are the foundation [TS]

01:08:31   there the thing upon which everybody [TS]

01:08:33   else built they should be more [TS]

01:08:35   conservative than you are with your own [TS]

01:08:38   classes and stuff that's that's their [TS]

01:08:40   role like so not that Swift is just made [TS]

01:08:43   for them but in any language if there [TS]

01:08:47   are tools to be conservative and to try [TS]

01:08:50   to reduce the surface area tried [TS]

01:08:52   reduce the public API try to reduce the [TS]

01:08:54   number of things that other developers [TS]

01:08:56   calling to like they do with like no [TS]

01:08:57   stopping private api in their app stores [TS]

01:08:59   and that's all part of the same process [TS]

01:09:01   they should do that [TS]

01:09:02   that's because they are there underneath [TS]

01:09:04   everything else so they have a [TS]

01:09:06   responsibility to be more solid and more [TS]

01:09:11   resilient to people doing crazy things [TS]

01:09:12   on top of them then the people who are [TS]

01:09:15   building on top and your application [TS]

01:09:16   code be all loosey-goosey all you want [TS]

01:09:18   you can get away with that because the [TS]

01:09:20   people building layers below you don't [TS]

01:09:22   get to be a loosey goosey and travel [TS]

01:09:25   sample does that and they follow through [TS]

01:09:27   on what you think is their instinct to [TS]

01:09:28   close stuff up which i'm not entirely [TS]

01:09:29   sure that they would because again will [TS]

01:09:30   be the same people who are advocating [TS]

01:09:31   uikit during the thing and you like it [TS]

01:09:34   isn't any more clothes than after they [TS]

01:09:35   just change the change the vectors [TS]

01:09:38   change the they knew which things would [TS]

01:09:39   more be more likely to vary which is why [TS]

01:09:41   you like it seems like so much nicer to [TS]

01:09:42   deal with a nap because they learned out [TS]

01:09:44   when people use this kind of thing [TS]

01:09:45   mostly they want a very x y&z and so [TS]

01:09:48   we'll build our glasses to make those [TS]

01:09:49   things very well anyway if i was to [TS]

01:09:51   close things off in the the new swift [TS]

01:09:54   frameworks or whatever that would [TS]

01:09:58   basically force people like developers [TS]

01:09:59   like well I can't work around this [TS]

01:10:00   anymore because I can't even subclasses [TS]

01:10:02   thing over i do you think is your stupid [TS]

01:10:03   framework is all closed off and I don't [TS]

01:10:05   have your source code it's a binary [TS]

01:10:06   framework so the only thing left for me [TS]

01:10:08   is to file bugs and what that will mean [TS]

01:10:10   is that many more developers are forced [TS]

01:10:13   essentially to like they did they have [TS]

01:10:15   no workaround they have to tell Apple [TS]

01:10:17   hey I can't make my button now you know [TS]

01:10:20   tent color and this button blue in this [TS]

01:10:22   scenario because there's you know it [TS]

01:10:24   because of the way the framework works i [TS]

01:10:26   have no access to that little knob to [TS]

01:10:28   turn and I can't subclass it and do that [TS]

01:10:31   so please like you know but I'll file [TS]

01:10:34   the bug and and I can't shut my app [TS]

01:10:36   you're preventing your ship map is there [TS]

01:10:37   is no workaround and apple in response [TS]

01:10:40   to this has added pressure to consider [TS]

01:10:43   these requests because they can't say oh [TS]

01:10:44   yeah no that's a bug but for now just [TS]

01:10:46   you can just work around about running [TS]

01:10:48   this method like there is no workaround [TS]

01:10:49   both parties no Jesus no workaround we [TS]

01:10:52   didn't think about this this way that [TS]

01:10:54   people use the frameworks that they [TS]

01:10:56   can't get that they can change this [TS]

01:10:57   thing that seems i'm only reasonable to [TS]

01:10:59   change that's going to force Apple to [TS]

01:11:01   reconsider maybe if we don't have [TS]

01:11:05   this can we have can we provide a [TS]

01:11:07   supportive way to do this and this much [TS]

01:11:09   more motivation to provide a supportive [TS]

01:11:11   way to do this if it's really common [TS]

01:11:13   thing that tons of developers and there [TS]

01:11:14   is literally no workaround is no [TS]

01:11:16   workaround because of what Apple did the [TS]

01:11:17   workaround is a no just open that class [TS]

01:11:19   up the work you know this is the fixes [TS]

01:11:21   but we don't want to just open the class [TS]

01:11:22   up because we know what kind of problems [TS]

01:11:24   that leads to it x everyone's hands in [TS]

01:11:26   the future and makes it so than SOS the [TS]

01:11:28   upgrade could break your app and stuff [TS]

01:11:29   but if you really want to change this [TS]

01:11:32   thing we should provide a supportive way [TS]

01:11:34   to change it because there is no [TS]

01:11:36   workaround so you would hope like what [TS]

01:11:38   you're hoping like this is like all the [TS]

01:11:40   best loss that you're hoping that [TS]

01:11:41   motivates everyone involved to behave [TS]

01:11:43   better like this is this is something [TS]

01:11:45   pressing in on a system and you're [TS]

01:11:46   hoping what it causes to happen is for [TS]

01:11:48   the system to shape itself around this [TS]

01:11:50   pressure in this this force to become a [TS]

01:11:52   better thing than making everybody [TS]

01:11:54   become better it's difficult to more [TS]

01:11:56   people would be easier to just do [TS]

01:11:57   whatever the hell they want but then you [TS]

01:11:58   just have to both chaos right and in [TS]

01:12:01   general that the larger issue of this [TS]

01:12:02   whole thing about Swift and frameworks [TS]

01:12:04   and apple the foundation and everything [TS]

01:12:06   is no less code and increased safety is [TS]

01:12:10   what you need when you want to create [TS]

01:12:11   large complicated systems or systems [TS]

01:12:13   keep getting better and keep getting [TS]

01:12:14   more complicated and one of the biggest [TS]

01:12:16   tools we have to fight against that is [TS]

01:12:17   reduce the number of things that can go [TS]

01:12:20   wrong reduce the number of things that [TS]

01:12:21   you can do make more things deliberate [TS]

01:12:24   unless things accidental thing [TS]

01:12:27   yeah and and i think that's that's in [TS]

01:12:30   the spirit of swift and it's just a [TS]

01:12:32   spirit of the advancement of technology [TS]

01:12:33   market talk about this going in cycles [TS]

01:12:34   and dynamic vs static whatever I think [TS]

01:12:36   all like that some of that stuff does go [TS]

01:12:39   in cycles but increased safety is an [TS]

01:12:41   arrow in one direction very very rarely [TS]

01:12:44   do we see the world of writing programs [TS]

01:12:47   for that territory verse and say we have [TS]

01:12:50   this kind of safety where was impossible [TS]

01:12:52   to scribble over memory but we'd like to [TS]

01:12:53   add that in the next language that [TS]

01:12:55   because it always goes towards more [TS]

01:12:56   abstraction more safety and the safety [TS]

01:12:58   can take different forms will be [TS]

01:12:59   misguided about what you need to provide [TS]

01:13:01   that safety or how do you know because [TS]

01:13:03   small talk is pretty darn safe but it [TS]

01:13:05   certainly looks nothing like Swift right [TS]

01:13:06   so the move towards higher-level [TS]

01:13:09   languages and increase safety [TS]

01:13:11   however that may manifest that is an [TS]

01:13:13   arrow that is essentially always going [TS]

01:13:14   at one [TS]

01:13:15   action and I think just the generations [TS]

01:13:16   and getting there and the different [TS]

01:13:17   paths towards that goal are separate and [TS]

01:13:20   so is the dynamic vs taxes you can have [TS]

01:13:22   an M again like small dog and eminently [TS]

01:13:24   dynamic language that is very very safe [TS]

01:13:27   you can also have an eminently static [TS]

01:13:28   language that is also very very safe so [TS]

01:13:32   the static and dynamic I i think does go [TS]

01:13:37   in cycles not just based on fashion [TS]

01:13:40   based on theory and everything like that [TS]

01:13:41   but increase safety everybody always [TS]

01:13:43   wants that and that's the direction I [TS]

01:13:44   think so what is going so I I don't know [TS]

01:13:46   this i forget who proposed decided it [TS]

01:13:48   might have been a third-party proposal [TS]

01:13:49   or whatever but bottom line for me is I [TS]

01:13:52   think that since this doesn't change [TS]

01:13:54   capabilities [TS]

01:13:56   all it does is make everyone involved [TS]

01:13:57   think about things differently and [TS]

01:13:59   because the default will be different [TS]

01:14:00   than objective-c i hope we'll call it [TS]

01:14:02   cause everyone involved to to think [TS]

01:14:04   differently than they used to think [TS]

01:14:06   about it and that apple will know more [TS]

01:14:09   things down and it will cause more [TS]

01:14:10   ingenious for developers and apples will [TS]

01:14:12   send feedback and an apple developers [TS]

01:14:14   will some feedback the apple an apple [TS]

01:14:15   will be forced to think about the [TS]

01:14:17   feedback and provide a way to do it [TS]

01:14:18   because they're reasonable request in [TS]

01:14:20   there is literally no workaround and the [TS]

01:14:21   end result should be for users programs [TS]

01:14:23   that have fewer bugs third-party [TS]

01:14:25   applications to break less frequently [TS]

01:14:26   with OS upgrades and just generally more [TS]

01:14:29   solid stable code for everyone going [TS]

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01:16:40   sponsoring our show so John what does [TS]

01:16:43   the open-source Swift mean for the [TS]

01:16:45   future of go and rust know just thought [TS]

01:16:48   it was interesting questions so there's [TS]

01:16:50   a lot of languages out there that are [TS]

01:16:51   very similar in spirit and you know [TS]

01:16:54   visually even are already on the ideas [TS]

01:16:56   behind them make a language that is [TS]

01:16:58   kinda like see but without the nasty [TS]

01:17:02   pointer stuff that is fast like those [TS]

01:17:04   compiled languages but that has lots of [TS]

01:17:07   more safety guarantees where the [TS]

01:17:09   compiler can figure out all sorts of [TS]

01:17:10   stuff for you so you don't have to do [TS]

01:17:11   manual memory management but you get the [TS]

01:17:13   speed of a language like C or C++ so go [TS]

01:17:17   rusty Swift all kind of fall into that [TS]

01:17:20   family they're all relatively new [TS]

01:17:21   open-source Swift as we saw from that [TS]

01:17:25   the project the open and the crazy [TS]

01:17:27   activity and Swift evolution mailing [TS]

01:17:29   list and just the sheer number of iOS [TS]

01:17:30   developers who this is this language is [TS]

01:17:32   potentially for and that the just yet [TS]

01:17:35   even just a journal assignment at WC [TS]

01:17:37   when Swift was announced in the first [TS]

01:17:39   place that so it's pretty popular just [TS]

01:17:41   big [TS]

01:17:41   because because it belongs to apple like [TS]

01:17:42   if you had just been a project you know [TS]

01:17:44   off to the side by some random person we [TS]

01:17:46   wouldn't be having the shows about it [TS]

01:17:48   but it's because it's coming from apple [TS]

01:17:50   that it's very popular goes from google [TS]

01:17:52   another big company they use internally [TS]

01:17:54   that is a tractor to pull on go being [TS]

01:17:57   very popular also made by some of the [TS]

01:17:59   folks that made see so that has some you [TS]

01:18:01   know celebrity cachet behind it rust i [TS]

01:18:04   think is from Muslim focus primarily I [TS]

01:18:06   don't know the full backstory and rust [TS]

01:18:08   but it's so if you have to compare the [TS]

01:18:10   sizes of these communities you would [TS]

01:18:12   think that like Apple and Swift is the [TS]

01:18:15   most powerful not because they're bigger [TS]

01:18:17   or more important company Google but [TS]

01:18:19   merely because google uses all sorts of [TS]

01:18:20   languages google uses a lot of java [TS]

01:18:22   google uses python google uses go so [TS]

01:18:25   it's not as if there's like this one [TS]

01:18:27   google language and if there was to go [TS]

01:18:29   probably wouldn't be it but with apple [TS]

01:18:31   apple with has been for a long time now [TS]

01:18:33   objective-c is there one language and [TS]

01:18:35   their you moving over to Swift this kind [TS]

01:18:38   of speak with one voice all the the [TS]

01:18:39   Applewood is behind that one arrow right [TS]

01:18:41   google have to come in second with go [TS]

01:18:43   and like a google does have lots of [TS]

01:18:45   different languages and has always been [TS]

01:18:46   kind of like encouraging of using lots [TS]

01:18:48   of different and they have dark their [TS]

01:18:49   own language and also something lots of [TS]

01:18:52   languages are mixing around there but [TS]

01:18:54   google is a big company and they write a [TS]

01:18:55   lot of stuff and go is fairly important [TS]

01:18:58   language and then finally google has [TS]

01:19:00   more languages than I have mac pros like [TS]

01:19:01   that's the they just make a new language [TS]

01:19:04   like every six months you never know [TS]

01:19:06   where it goes [TS]

01:19:07   so it doesn't this doesn't look around [TS]

01:19:08   and then rest i think is even smaller [TS]

01:19:10   because like well-muscled they make a [TS]

01:19:12   web browser and a bunch of other stuff [TS]

01:19:13   and they're important but Andres is [TS]

01:19:16   really interesting and it's not like you [TS]

01:19:18   have to use all these languages the [TS]

01:19:19   general-purpose language that you could [TS]

01:19:21   use for anything but they all have [TS]

01:19:22   communities around them they're all [TS]

01:19:24   fairly open and you could in theory [TS]

01:19:25   right anything you want to go Marco even [TS]

01:19:27   wrote a thing for our guests and go and [TS]

01:19:28   rescue could use to read any time and [TS]

01:19:30   same thing with Swift right but splits [TS]

01:19:32   coming on the scene and being someone to [TS]

01:19:34   the two languages and having the full [TS]

01:19:36   weight of Apple behind it could [TS]

01:19:38   potentially do one of two things either [TS]

01:19:40   it could suck people away from those [TS]

01:19:42   things they can say well i was [TS]

01:19:43   interested in go and rest but Swift [TS]

01:19:45   seems very similar and just seems to be [TS]

01:19:47   like more popular [TS]

01:19:48   as a better ide and I keep hearing about [TS]

01:19:50   it and whatever or I like it better [TS]

01:19:52   something like that just because apples [TS]

01:19:54   behind it or gonna have the opposite [TS]

01:19:55   effect where it's like I wasn't going to [TS]

01:19:58   consider one of these alternate [TS]

01:19:59   languages but now the Swift is that it [TS]

01:20:01   seems like all bets are off on what used [TS]

01:20:02   to seem safe [TS]

01:20:03   C C++ or C sharp or Java that's all then [TS]

01:20:06   boston now it's time for me to try it [TS]

01:20:07   also it's a new languages so maybe go [TS]

01:20:09   and rest receive a huge influx of [TS]

01:20:11   activity and pull requests and people [TS]

01:20:14   contributing to their communities as [TS]

01:20:15   well as well check back in the year and [TS]

01:20:17   see you know I don't know you'd measures [TS]

01:20:18   may be like go to github or whatever and [TS]

01:20:20   see like what happened to the go and [TS]

01:20:22   rest communities in you know is there [TS]

01:20:24   anyway we can measure that was the [TS]

01:20:27   effect of Swift to cause those [TS]

01:20:28   communities to swell and importance in [TS]

01:20:30   those languages to mature and become [TS]

01:20:31   more popular or was the effect to sort [TS]

01:20:34   of pull people away from those two [TS]

01:20:35   communities and have them sort of with [TS]

01:20:37   her more now that the the giant Sun that [TS]

01:20:39   is Swift is shining down from WWDC every [TS]

01:20:42   year [TS]

01:20:43   alright alright thanks a lot 43 sponsors [TS]

01:20:46   this week [TS]

01:20:47   audible.com igloo and warby parker and [TS]

01:20:51   we will see you next week [TS]

01:20:52   now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

01:20:58   mean to be in because it was accidental [TS]

01:21:01   death was accidental [TS]

01:21:05   John research Marco and Casey would let [TS]

01:21:09   him because it was accidental was [TS]

01:21:13   accidental [TS]

01:21:14   you can find show know today [TS]

01:21:18   DP die and if twitter follow them [TS]

01:21:26   yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

01:21:31   co-pay rm20 Marco Arment our CC Syracuse [TS]

01:21:52   name itself this about Casey put in [TS]

01:21:56   there rip webobjects i think i might [TS]

01:21:58   have rip you mean r.i.p yes as in what [TS]

01:22:02   does this mean for what objects [TS]

01:22:03   yeah I don't know products is a mystery [TS]

01:22:06   to me a mystery to everyone [TS]

01:22:08   I mean I don't know anything about [TS]

01:22:10   webobjects but I do know that it is it [TS]

01:22:13   is blamed for a lot of the the [TS]

01:22:16   shortcomings of apples web services and [TS]

01:22:18   I i would guess it's probably not all [TS]

01:22:21   about what my doctor i'm guessing that [TS]

01:22:23   it's much more about like the entire [TS]

01:22:25   rest of the stack and that's that is [TS]

01:22:28   probably a small part of the problem if [TS]

01:22:30   it's even still part of the problem at [TS]

01:22:31   all [TS]

01:22:32   it is probably connected to it but just [TS]

01:22:34   like the consequences what does it mean [TS]

01:22:36   what what are the consequences that spin [TS]

01:22:38   out from the fact that using objects [TS]

01:22:39   well then we have to return this plug [TS]

01:22:41   well we have to run this OS and well the [TS]

01:22:43   way with allergy applications are gonna [TS]

01:22:45   have to factor in this way you can [TS]

01:22:46   really split this up from that and you [TS]

01:22:48   can't this isn't horizontally scalable [TS]

01:22:49   and these are these are tightly coupled [TS]

01:22:51   instead of loosely coupled we can [TS]

01:22:52   replace this with the better version of [TS]

01:22:53   this component you know those [TS]

01:22:55   consequences that ripple outwards from [TS]

01:22:58   robotics what object itself i would [TS]

01:23:00   think it's not a big deal but I don't [TS]

01:23:02   know I i just wonder with the technology [TS]

01:23:03   like that just seems to be like the only [TS]

01:23:05   person left in the world using it as [TS]

01:23:06   Apple which is fine but at a certain [TS]

01:23:08   point like every company even if your [TS]

01:23:11   google has to be like it's going to be a [TS]

01:23:13   thing we do it is we should probably [TS]

01:23:14   make it open and try to get other people [TS]

01:23:16   to use it was just us using it will kind [TS]

01:23:18   of do a crappy job like it's better to [TS]

01:23:20   get everybody else on board like they're [TS]

01:23:22   doing [TS]

01:23:22   swiftor go or resting and then to try to [TS]

01:23:25   say we just use internally we we can [TS]

01:23:28   support our own weird web framework and [TS]

01:23:30   definitely can't we [TS]

01:23:31   maybe not what else going on [TS]

01:23:34   you wanna talk about the Chevy bolt [TS]

01:23:37   that's antiques get in the chat the what [TS]

01:23:40   is that though the smaller vault [TS]

01:23:42   yeah its battery only it claimed up to [TS]

01:23:44   do up to 200 mile range could be [TS]

01:23:47   substantial thirty thousand dollars it's [TS]

01:23:50   not attractive looks like the i3 yeah I [TS]

01:23:53   i saw a 93 in person again in the day [TS]

01:23:55   and it's one of those things like [TS]

01:23:56   whenever a new model of a new like crazy [TS]

01:24:00   design comes out at first it seems like [TS]

01:24:02   wacky and crazy and ugly and then over [TS]

01:24:04   time you can get you soon as you see the [TS]

01:24:05   morning [TS]

01:24:06   more and it gets you know less new the [TS]

01:24:08   i3 has not followed that progression for [TS]

01:24:10   me to be high three every time I see it [TS]

01:24:12   is worse than the last time I said but [TS]

01:24:15   it's so bad why didn't i didn't read [TS]

01:24:19   anything about this [TS]

01:24:20   I've thought about it in the past like [TS]

01:24:22   I'm not in the market for a car but wait [TS]

01:24:24   aren't you know kind of for Aaron well [TS]

01:24:27   for Aaron yeah but not for me but I've [TS]

01:24:30   been thinking and this would not be [TS]

01:24:31   forever and it would be for me i rarely [TS]

01:24:34   drive more than a hundred miles in a [TS]

01:24:37   week maybe like my commute up until i [TS]

01:24:40   went and did staff fog which is markers [TS]

01:24:42   favorite thing my commute was like five [TS]

01:24:43   minutes and so I would drive maybe 10 [TS]

01:24:47   miles in a day maybe you take a [TS]

01:24:49   hoverboard to work [TS]

01:24:50   yeah pretty much which by the way i just [TS]

01:24:52   realized tonight that the hoverboards [TS]

01:24:54   everyone we're talking about is like a [TS]

01:24:55   segway without the handlebars I'd I had [TS]

01:24:57   no idea what everyone was talking about [TS]

01:24:59   and basically yeah it's a lot simpler [TS]

01:25:01   and less sophisticated but that's [TS]

01:25:03   basically it [TS]

01:25:04   yeah I didn't realize that was a thing [TS]

01:25:06   but anyway um I there's no reason for me [TS]

01:25:10   not to have an electric car because I [TS]

01:25:11   Drive very little it would absolutely [TS]

01:25:14   charge itself overnight [TS]

01:25:15   there's no reason for me not to have one [TS]

01:25:17   except that every single electric car [TS]

01:25:20   I've ever seen other than the Tesla is [TS]

01:25:24   either hideous slow or both and I'm just [TS]

01:25:27   not into that [TS]

01:25:28   so good at Tesla I need to find I need [TS]

01:25:33   to work like three jobs so respond to [TS]

01:25:35   this week by former you exactly need [TS]

01:25:38   three more jobs or you guys need to not [TS]

01:25:42   take sponsorship money for the next like [TS]

01:25:44   six months and then maybe we can think [TS]

01:25:46   about it I don't know but uh this is [TS]

01:25:48   interesting i guess the boat looks like [TS]

01:25:50   a American press is what it looks like [TS]

01:25:53   yeah kinda like it's small it's a small [TS]

01:25:56   populace car is not like the model s [TS]

01:25:59   where it's trying to be like a [TS]

01:26:01   full-sized regular shape car that also [TS]

01:26:04   happens to be electric the sum was [TS]

01:26:06   another 1i forgot the name of the [TS]

01:26:08   company was some kind of basically [TS]

01:26:09   taking Tesla's and putting a different [TS]

01:26:11   body on oh yeah I'm for the Faraday or [TS]

01:26:14   something [TS]

01:26:14   is that what that was about yeah that is [TS]

01:26:17   it's like the Tesla like the little [TS]

01:26:19   the thing you see in the test the store [TS]

01:26:20   in the mall just like the battery and [TS]

01:26:22   the drivetrain and the wheels and they [TS]

01:26:24   build a different car on top of it so [TS]

01:26:26   presumably more money and it seems silly [TS]

01:26:28   again it was a it was like the FF 0 or [TS]

01:26:31   something like that which which made me [TS]

01:26:33   happy because it's a play on the FC 0 [TS]

01:26:35   super nintendo game which I love if it [TS]

01:26:38   was they would be sued [TS]

01:26:39   speaking of which how about that that [TS]

01:26:42   Apple watch clone from the Swiss [TS]

01:26:45   mechanical watchmaker I did you see the [TS]

01:26:48   black no no neighs loop i see i saw in [TS]

01:26:51   the monomer site that looks interesting [TS]

01:26:52   but I mean it [TS]

01:26:55   there's no reason why Apple couldn't do [TS]

01:26:57   that like off the top of my head unless [TS]

01:26:58   there's some kind of manufacturing [TS]

01:26:59   challenge but tell you what the [TS]

01:27:01   so right now you stole my mechanical [TS]

01:27:03   watch thing but the the the black the [TS]

01:27:06   space black link bracelet that I got I [TS]

01:27:10   don't know six months ago now for my [TS]

01:27:11   Apple watch that that black dlc coding [TS]

01:27:14   is the real deal like it is still [TS]

01:27:17   flawless and any kind of stainless steel [TS]

01:27:19   band or the same steel watch itself get [TS]

01:27:22   scratched to hell in like a second the [TS]

01:27:24   black the space black with the dlc on it [TS]

01:27:27   is just literally like it mine has no [TS]

01:27:31   scratches on it at all like it is it [TS]

01:27:33   like it is crazy how good that coding is [TS]

01:27:36   so I I welcome Apple adding more options [TS]

01:27:41   that have dlc because that is it's just [TS]

01:27:43   awesome [TS]

01:27:43   it is so good this mechanical Apple [TS]

01:27:46   watches is not good i don't understand [TS]

01:27:49   what their yeah i just looked at the [TS]

01:27:51   moment you started talking it that's why [TS]

01:27:53   why why Apple had to make it like that [TS]

01:27:56   you don't it went to me like this it's [TS]

01:27:59   like it the world of mechanical watches [TS]

01:28:01   if you if you look at mechanical watches [TS]

01:28:03   and the appeal they have and and you [TS]

01:28:06   look at the complaints that that [TS]

01:28:07   mechanical watch people have about the [TS]

01:28:09   Apple watch one of the big complaint is [TS]

01:28:11   that the Apple watchers isn't that [TS]

01:28:13   attractive watch so why would you make [TS]

01:28:16   one that looks just like it like it [TS]

01:28:19   seems [TS]

01:28:20   first of all apples gonna sue the crap [TS]

01:28:21   out of you and make this stop [TS]

01:28:23   immediately [TS]

01:28:24   second of all what like why third of all [TS]

01:28:27   they only selling it in gold [TS]

01:28:30   so it's like 25 grand [TS]

01:28:32   I didn't make enough money to pay for a [TS]

01:28:35   lawyer who's gonna buy that like who's [TS]

01:28:38   gonna who's gonna spend 25 grand on that [TS]

01:28:41   yeah I don't know it just seems silly [TS]

01:28:44   but I mean you like it's like these [TS]

01:28:47   watchmakers like what what's what's [TS]

01:28:49   going on what's exciting in the watch [TS]

01:28:50   world this entire year we heard about [TS]

01:28:52   this tuple Apple watch how can we get in [TS]

01:28:54   on that excitement something how about [TS]

01:28:57   we make you like it we can make a [TS]

01:28:59   SmartWatch like we don't know how to do [TS]

01:29:00   that how to make a regular water's make [TS]

01:29:02   it look like the Apple watch right yeah [TS]

01:29:05   similar like the tag heuer I don't know [TS]

01:29:09   how to pronounce i'm suing its tag or [TS]

01:29:11   toddler they're smart watch that they [TS]

01:29:15   released a few months ago [TS]

01:29:16   it's like the it looks just like a [TS]

01:29:20   regular like you know round mechanical [TS]

01:29:22   watch face but it is just a black screen [TS]

01:29:26   like the Apple watch most of the time it [TS]

01:29:28   seems like and then like you know it [TS]

01:29:29   turns on and it has a face that looks [TS]

01:29:31   like a tag heuer watch you know but like [TS]

01:29:34   to me again like that kind of ruins the [TS]

01:29:36   point if you're gonna have a watch with [TS]

01:29:37   a screen black all the time and then [TS]

01:29:38   eventually look at it and glanced at it [TS]

01:29:40   and there's like a computer you have to [TS]

01:29:41   manage then I think the apple watch is [TS]

01:29:43   the one to get because if you want a [TS]

01:29:46   computer watch that seems like it's [TS]

01:29:47   probably the best computer watch [TS]

01:29:49   right like I I don't get it like now [TS]

01:29:51   that I've seen this world just a little [TS]

01:29:53   bit [TS]

01:29:53   I totally see the value of a good [TS]

01:29:56   mechanical watch and I totally see the [TS]

01:29:58   value of a computer watch and I don't [TS]

01:30:00   think those things should be crossed i [TS]

01:30:02   think crossing them destroys the value [TS]

01:30:04   of both really this is gonna get now you [TS]

01:30:07   must also watch people [TS]

01:30:08   well we've already gotten by even I've [TS]

01:30:11   gotten a lot of stuff from the watch [TS]

01:30:14   people you know I've been thinking in [TS]

01:30:17   the watch world and speaking like [TS]

01:30:18   smartwatches a mechanic watching [TS]

01:30:19   everything I've been impressed so far [TS]

01:30:21   anyway [TS]

01:30:22   still other wait another year but [TS]

01:30:23   impressed with how Fitbit has reacted to [TS]

01:30:26   the challenge of the Apple watch [TS]

01:30:28   reacting by basically making newer and [TS]

01:30:33   more capable series of things that are [TS]

01:30:35   mostly featureless bands with very [TS]

01:30:37   simple screens incorporated into them in [TS]

01:30:40   subtle ways i saw a picture of the press [TS]

01:30:42   been wearing a lot of people have the [TS]

01:30:43   newer fits like they found kind of in [TS]

01:30:46   the same way that the pebble didn't her [TS]

01:30:48   maybe you know people had some good [TS]

01:30:50   ideas to be like trying to find like how [TS]

01:30:52   am i different than the apple watch but [TS]

01:30:54   still a valuable product like what is [TS]

01:30:55   the road that is still available to me [TS]

01:30:57   to go forward and fit seems to it be [TS]

01:31:00   I mean who knows there could be like to [TS]

01:31:01   flip remember the flip camera back in [TS]

01:31:03   those years before before the iphone [TS]

01:31:05   shot video [TS]

01:31:06   oh yeah the flip camera had a Grilli [TS]

01:31:07   great business for like three years [TS]

01:31:09   yeah right and so it is still remains to [TS]

01:31:11   be seen if it will find a way like out [TS]

01:31:13   of the woods but so far like their [TS]

01:31:15   reaction to the post Apple watch time [TS]

01:31:17   has been pretty good [TS]

01:31:18   no they found it its it's the Fitbit [TS]

01:31:20   blaze is a real thing yeah look at it [TS]

01:31:23   that's that's how they're getting away [TS]

01:31:24   from the Apple watch that's the thing [TS]

01:31:28   was like an Apple watch with the [TS]

01:31:29   quarters punched out and that's not the [TS]

01:31:31   way i would say you would go towards [TS]

01:31:33   about talking about the the other food [TS]

01:31:35   products the white things activity steal [TS]

01:31:38   this i think it is a more [TS]

01:31:41   this is like a better competitor at [TS]

01:31:42   least I haven't seen one in real life [TS]

01:31:44   but on their website looks really nice [TS]

01:31:45   like this is the kind of thing like i [TS]

01:31:48   can see buying that valuing that rather [TS]

01:31:52   than Apple watch before i could see like [TS]

01:31:54   you know that the the big Fitbit corner [TS]

01:31:57   cut off a watch [TS]

01:31:59   it's a smart approaches it's like it's [TS]

01:32:02   mostly a mechanical watch basically are [TS]

01:32:04   many units of course probably know it's [TS]

01:32:05   like it's mostly a regular watch with [TS]

01:32:07   some very slight like activity tracking [TS]

01:32:10   and sleep alarm kind of things so like [TS]

01:32:12   it still has all the battery advantages [TS]

01:32:14   of our regular watch its low-cost it's [TS]

01:32:17   only with under two hundred bucks and [TS]

01:32:19   you know long batter is it can be more [TS]

01:32:21   attractive [TS]

01:32:22   yeah it means to I think it from these [TS]

01:32:23   pictures it looks pretty attractive who [TS]

01:32:25   knows again who knows like in real life [TS]

01:32:26   but but it looks pretty decent you know [TS]

01:32:29   under 200 bucks activity tracking [TS]

01:32:31   built-ins like that seems like that's a [TS]

01:32:34   better kind of approach to to addressed [TS]

01:32:36   to try to compete with the Apple watch [TS]

01:32:37   rather than to be a full-featured [TS]

01:32:39   computer platform because you're not [TS]

01:32:41   going to do that if you're why things or [TS]

01:32:43   Fitbit you're just you're not going to [TS]

01:32:45   compete on that front and the blade [TS]

01:32:47   looks more like a fitness like it's only [TS]

01:32:49   focused on fitness gps type thing but i [TS]

01:32:52   was thinking of the charge and the [TS]

01:32:53   charge HR and even the Flex like the [TS]

01:32:55   evolution of the Flex into increasingly [TS]

01:32:58   large rubbery bands with a tiny little [TS]

01:33:00   screen that that appeals to people for [TS]

01:33:03   athletics like it's for activity and [TS]

01:33:04   athletics just so focused on fitness [TS]

01:33:06   fits right in the name like use clips i [TS]

01:33:08   guess they do have a clear but like [TS]

01:33:09   Fitbit like we're not going to be a [TS]

01:33:11   general-purpose platform for smart [TS]

01:33:13   watching everything we do is gonna be [TS]

01:33:15   about fitness and so you can make this [TS]

01:33:17   whole line of products with a similar [TS]

01:33:19   value proposition of we track the stuff [TS]

01:33:21   that you're doing your heart rate and [TS]

01:33:22   your activity and we connect your [TS]

01:33:24   smartphone with a nap and all that stuff [TS]

01:33:25   but there's no real brains in our thing [TS]

01:33:27   is just an accelerometer and a tiny [TS]

01:33:28   simple screen and some magic invisible [TS]

01:33:31   bluetooth that just you know make organ [TS]

01:33:32   even the blaze thing looks like you know [TS]

01:33:35   I like those garmin gps things like a [TS]

01:33:38   really fancy version of a thing you wear [TS]

01:33:40   when your exercise I do not buy the ones [TS]

01:33:41   you like the woman in like with jewelry [TS]

01:33:44   with her fancy purse i just do not buy [TS]

01:33:46   that scenario at all for this thing [TS]

01:33:49   because it is huge and I absolutely [TS]

01:33:52   don't buy it as anything of boy looks [TS]

01:33:54   bad [TS]

01:33:55   no one really cares like that they're [TS]

01:33:56   like it's a boner man going on a date [TS]

01:33:57   and bring a suit and it's like he's [TS]

01:33:59   wearing a suit with this watch like yeah [TS]

01:34:02   I didn't know this existed might have to [TS]

01:34:03   take back some of my my credit but the [TS]

01:34:06   other things i see them around a lot i [TS]

01:34:08   see them around a lot of regular people [TS]

01:34:09   and they so clearly have is so cheap [TS]

01:34:13   compared to the apple watch and they're [TS]

01:34:15   so like not disposable but like they're [TS]

01:34:18   made of plastic and their rugged and [TS]

01:34:20   they're there they have such a clear [TS]

01:34:22   purpose and they're simple and you want [TS]

01:34:26   don't have to worry about like rebooting [TS]

01:34:28   them are updating the OS or getting apps [TS]

01:34:31   for them all you know they just know [TS]

01:34:33   again remember the flip camera will come [TS]

01:34:36   back to this in a year and see how see [TS]

01:34:37   how this all shaken out [TS]

01:34:38   yeah i mean i really i really do think [TS]

01:34:40   there's going to be a healthy market for [TS]

01:34:42   inexpensive more focused smart watches [TS]

01:34:47   that are not full-fledged at platforms [TS]

01:34:49   and because you could argue looking at [TS]

01:34:51   the apple watch how like the Apple watch [TS]

01:34:53   really isn't a great a platform either [TS]

01:34:55   it tries to be and maybe it will be in [TS]

01:34:58   the future but at the moment it isn't [TS]

01:35:00   and that the and what people tend to [TS]

01:35:03   like most about the Apple watch is the [TS]

01:35:05   stuff that [TS]

01:35:06   a two-hundred-dollar less capable watch [TS]

01:35:09   with a longer battery life probably [TS]

01:35:11   could do most of you know ya like it [TS]

01:35:15   like this with things are wild things [TS]

01:35:16   thing like it was the old as the price [TS]

01:35:18   of compute drops to zero eventually [TS]

01:35:20   smart cuts go into everything just [TS]

01:35:21   because it's so friggin Shakespearean [TS]

01:35:23   like that it's why would you have is a [TS]

01:35:25   regular quartz watch without some very [TS]

01:35:28   basic accelerometer step tracking [TS]

01:35:30   computer smarts and wireless [TS]

01:35:31   connectivity because eventually that the [TS]

01:35:33   thing that does all that in one tiny [TS]

01:35:35   system in the chip five years from now [TS]

01:35:36   it's like that costs less than the the [TS]

01:35:39   little metal bar that we used to connect [TS]

01:35:41   the straps like just put it in its free [TS]

01:35:43   and so everything has some amount of [TS]

01:35:44   smarts in an apple is making the [TS]

01:35:46   high-end one where they're always [TS]

01:35:47   pushing the envelope like what kinda [TS]

01:35:48   crazy computing stuff can we put in here [TS]

01:35:50   but it's like you know like the Internet [TS]

01:35:52   of Things eventually it's just like [TS]

01:35:54   we're going to a smart chip and [TS]

01:35:55   everything and we think that will make [TS]

01:35:57   it better and probably one in the [TS]

01:35:58   beginning but it just become so cheap [TS]

01:36:00   that you just do it because you can you [TS]

01:36:03   just try to like find a use for it and [TS]

01:36:05   eventually hopefully we'll find in the [TS]

01:36:06   same way that electricity camera and [TS]

01:36:08   everything you're like everything didn't [TS]

01:36:09   have electricity all I need electricity [TS]

01:36:11   for a lightbulb who what about [TS]

01:36:13   electricity in a thing and heat see your [TS]

01:36:15   house and electricity for that you [TS]

01:36:17   shovel colon what about electricity and [TS]

01:36:19   the thing that cooks your food well you [TS]

01:36:21   just put wood in the stove what about [TS]

01:36:23   you know toasting your bread i just put [TS]

01:36:25   it up and white is unless you need to be [TS]

01:36:26   in everything is just gonna make [TS]

01:36:27   everything worse and in the beginning it [TS]

01:36:29   did but eventually everything's got free [TS]

01:36:30   electricity so that's gonna be the same [TS]

01:36:33   with with cpus not everything cpus now [TS]

01:36:36   but it is inevitable [TS]

01:36:38   they will the same way they all get [TS]

01:36:39   electricity because and we'll have to [TS]

01:36:41   endure the stupid years [TS]

01:36:43   we're adding it makes everything worse [TS]

01:36:45   you know i i'm i'm absolutely sure that [TS]

01:36:48   the first electric stoves were hated by [TS]

01:36:50   everybody who is used to the [TS]

01:36:52   quote-unquote real stoves that didn't [TS]

01:36:54   have electricity but eventually worked [TS]

01:36:55   out even even today some people still [TS]

01:36:57   have giant gas stoves but no computers [TS]

01:37:01   coming watch out [TS]

01:37:02   yeah I don't know by as I said last time [TS]

01:37:06   and then a time I've been spent some [TS]

01:37:08   time where mechanical watch it is really [TS]

01:37:11   nice to have something that does not [TS]

01:37:13   need to be charged or have software [TS]

01:37:15   updates click it's so nice because [TS]

01:37:18   everything else in my [TS]

01:37:20   life now has to be charged and require [TS]

01:37:22   software updates and and by the way [TS]

01:37:24   works you know [TS]

01:37:26   ninety-seven percent of the time but not [TS]

01:37:29   that last three percent and even the [TS]

01:37:31   crappy mechanical ones I don't talk [TS]

01:37:33   about the computer comes everywhere it [TS]

01:37:34   will be so small that you won't need to [TS]

01:37:35   charge it all the time i get probably [TS]

01:37:37   charge of stuff from the motion of your [TS]

01:37:38   wrist or something and you won't need to [TS]

01:37:39   update the software because it will do [TS]

01:37:41   so few things and it will be a stick set [TS]

01:37:43   of functionality but there will still be [TS]

01:37:44   a cpu like in the same way that have [TS]

01:37:47   these vacuums are testing probably have [TS]

01:37:48   some microprocessor somewhere inside you [TS]

01:37:49   never need to update your never gonna [TS]

01:37:51   update it just does what it's going to [TS]

01:37:52   do you don't even know it's there you [TS]

01:37:53   have to think about charging as you plug [TS]

01:37:54   it in but it's in there in the same way [TS]

01:37:58   all of our cars have a design computers [TS]

01:37:59   and now for the most part we're not [TS]

01:38:01   running soft well Marco is now but most [TS]

01:38:03   of us and our heads home for updates on [TS]

01:38:05   our computer on our cars but they're [TS]

01:38:07   just they're filled with cpus so that's [TS]

01:38:09   the progression need if you're still [TS]

01:38:11   thinking about it and having to charge [TS]

01:38:13   and software update that's clearly like [TS]

01:38:14   on the on the leading edge of adding [TS]

01:38:18   computers to things when we stopped even [TS]

01:38:20   knowing this computer in it that's the [TS]

01:38:22   trailing edge of adding computers things [TS]

01:38:23   like cutting off cars on the trailing [TS]

01:38:25   edge his cars have this all of the [TS]

01:38:27   revolution of having their interiors [TS]

01:38:29   become a computerized but the engines [TS]

01:38:31   have long since been computerized that [TS]

01:38:33   ship has kind of sailed on our computer [TS]

01:38:34   I smell rest of the card I think of [TS]

01:38:35   another example something in our house [TS]

01:38:37   maybe washing maybe dishwasher or [TS]

01:38:39   washing machines they used to just be [TS]

01:38:41   like circuit boards with a bunch of six [TS]

01:38:43   circuits and stuff but eventually they [TS]

01:38:44   just all got cpus and we don't think [TS]

01:38:47   about it you don't update them and you [TS]

01:38:48   know how to charge them then it's not a [TS]

01:38:49   hassle and they don't crash because what [TS]

01:38:51   they do is so stupid and so simple and [TS]

01:38:54   you know for the most part and maybe [TS]

01:38:56   I'll come with a better example [TS]

01:38:58   yes that's fine like like the stuff [TS]

01:39:00   that's basically like you know a sealed [TS]

01:39:01   box where like you can't get a firmware [TS]

01:39:04   update for your dishwasher like I'm sure [TS]

01:39:06   it's possible for server people do it [TS]

01:39:08   but like that isn't something to [TS]

01:39:09   consumers are expected to ever do or [TS]

01:39:11   even able to do because what they do is [TS]

01:39:14   so simple and basic like you hoped there [TS]

01:39:16   would be no need for such a thing but [TS]

01:39:18   where were the danger of being annoying [TS]

01:39:21   and reliable comes in as you have [TS]

01:39:23   something as complicated as an app [TS]

01:39:25   platform you know like a device that has [TS]

01:39:27   an apple from like a SmartWatch like [TS]

01:39:29   that that is complicated [TS]

01:39:31   so now you're expected to have like this [TS]

01:39:33   smartwatch a phone maybe a tablet [TS]

01:39:36   certainly a computer or one of those [TS]

01:39:37   things you know so like you have all [TS]

01:39:39   these devices that thing and then your [TS]

01:39:41   cars are getting smarter they have [TS]

01:39:42   software that whether it whether it gets [TS]

01:39:45   updated or not it probably needs to like [TS]

01:39:48   like my car now does not have [TS]

01:39:51   over-the-air updates the way Tesla does [TS]

01:39:52   but it has plenty of software bugs that [TS]

01:39:55   should be fixed [TS]

01:39:56   yeah its biggest don't get fixed at the [TS]

01:39:58   quality that they have the platform [TS]

01:40:00   thing is interesting because I think [TS]

01:40:01   we're in the process of trying to figure [TS]

01:40:03   out what things should be platforms and [TS]

01:40:05   what things should I think like for the [TS]

01:40:07   most part thus far we've decided that [TS]

01:40:08   washing machine should not be [TS]

01:40:10   application platforms [TS]

01:40:11   I think we're all pretty much in [TS]

01:40:12   agreement there so far but people are [TS]

01:40:14   going to try things that she watches the [TS]

01:40:16   application platforms should phones [TS]

01:40:18   should like should televisions we're [TS]

01:40:21   finding out the answers to those things [TS]

01:40:22   now I think we pretty much found out [TS]

01:40:23   phones yes they should probably be [TS]

01:40:25   application platforms to televisions [TS]

01:40:27   carry kinda maybe still out watches jury [TS]

01:40:31   still out cars i think your figure [TS]

01:40:34   you're gonna figure that out for us mark [TS]

01:40:35   alright mean that maybe like this is not [TS]

01:40:37   really you know it [TS]

01:40:39   everything is potentially one but they [TS]

01:40:41   can't all be there is no future where [TS]

01:40:43   everything is an app platform in the way [TS]

01:40:45   that we think of that platforms today [TS]

01:40:46   but everything will have cpu is [TS]

01:40:48   everything for all you know everything [TS]

01:40:49   could be getting magic wireless software [TS]

01:40:51   updates you know again as the as the [TS]

01:40:52   price of computing drops to zero as the [TS]

01:40:55   power consumption of computing drops to [TS]

01:40:56   zero as it becomes just so damn cheap [TS]

01:40:58   and so power you know and and like [TS]

01:41:02   ubiquitous net wireless networking [TS]

01:41:03   everywhere with low-power you just put [TS]

01:41:05   in everything and if you can come up [TS]

01:41:08   with these sort of the wireless internet [TS]

01:41:11   enabled equivalent of the dumb embedded [TS]

01:41:13   cpu that's in your rice cooker that does [TS]

01:41:15   the fuzzy logic fair when to stop [TS]

01:41:16   cooking your rice if that has some [TS]

01:41:18   little minor bug or even just want to [TS]

01:41:21   patch something to the International [TS]

01:41:22   Date authority decides we're going to [TS]

01:41:24   skip january fifteenth in the year 2027 [TS]

01:41:26   for some reason or whatever that all the [TS]

01:41:29   devices in your house will wirelessly [TS]

01:41:31   get updates to handle that date thing [TS]

01:41:33   and you won't think about it they'll be [TS]

01:41:35   great like that's a that's a potential [TS]

01:41:37   cool future and it's eminently possible [TS]

01:41:39   but it still doesn't make it right here [TS]

01:41:41   in a platform because that just doesn't [TS]

01:41:42   make any sense you know practically [TS]

01:41:44   speaking [TS]

01:41:45   because what we use it for you just [TS]

01:41:47   wanted to be reliable and like 70 MW it [TS]

01:41:49   may have bugs and you would like it was [TS]

01:41:51   Bugsy six but you don't want to deal [TS]

01:41:52   with that crap nobody wants to deal with [TS]

01:41:54   it you just wanted to happen auto [TS]

01:41:55   magically with no possibility of error [TS]

01:41:57   like the rules for embedded systems are [TS]

01:42:00   so different than the rules for things [TS]

01:42:02   that are at platforms and then we're out [TS]

01:42:03   there on the bleeding edge like the [TS]

01:42:04   Apple watch and and smartphones and our [TS]

01:42:06   pcs perpetually on the bleeding edge [TS]

01:42:08   that's where things get all unreliable [TS]

01:42:10   and crapping this is a whole different [TS]

01:42:11   set of rules there and it came back to [TS]

01:42:14   the Swift discussion if they can try to [TS]

01:42:16   to drag those leading edge platforms [TS]

01:42:18   towards more safety at the price of our [TS]

01:42:20   restrictions as long as they do it in [TS]

01:42:22   the same way and understand what the [TS]

01:42:23   consequences can be unlikely sort of [TS]

01:42:25   unintended consequences of trying to [TS]

01:42:27   drag general-purpose Mac platform to be [TS]

01:42:29   like a smartphone the sandboxing then I [TS]

01:42:31   think things can work out eventually [TS]

01:42:33   probably will mostly be dead but i find [TS]

01:42:36   a little long time so we'll say [TS]