0:00:00[Music]
0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 460. Today's show is brought to you by ZocDoc and Ladder.
0:00:16My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by the man from Six Colors, Mr. Jason Snow. Hi, Jason.
0:00:21Hi, Mike. You made me sound like a secret agent or something. Yes, the man from Six Colors is here.
0:00:27He knows, here's the real secret. License to color. Jason knows the seventh color as well,
0:00:33but he just won't tell you what it is. It's ultraviolet. I have a Snail Talk question for
0:00:40you. It comes from Zach who wants to know, "Jason, when you are eating leftover pizza,
0:00:45do you eat it cold or do you reheat the pizza?" With the pizza, we're in a little run here, Mike,
0:00:51these pizza questions. I have some pizza follow-up actually before you get to the Snail Talk.
0:00:56Okay. Federico was happy with the Anduja. He said he'll forgive me for hot honey because he's a fan
0:01:02of Anduja. Oh, good. So, you know, if you're wondering how the Italians are feeling about
0:01:07our pizza conversations, there's another piece of update for you. Okay, sounds good. I didn't even
0:01:15know that. I thought you made a mistake and we're describing Andouille sausage. I know. Yeah,
0:01:21I'll have to have it sometime when I see it on the menu. I think you'd like it. The answer to
0:01:26Zach's question is yes. I do sometimes eat it cold. I do sometimes reheat it. The question
0:01:35becomes sort of like, do I want to go to the trouble of reheating it or not? I am, and this
0:01:41is going to open us up for so much other follow-up, but I am deeply against toaster ovens. Okay.
0:01:51Shots fired. I like slot toasters. Me too. I like ovens. That's what I like. I have a microwave.
0:01:58Microwaves are not great for reheating pizza. I have a pizza stone because I cook, especially in
0:02:04the winter when I don't have my outdoor pizza oven that I cook on. I have a pizza stone, and it's
0:02:11really easy to just put cold pizza on the pizza stone and put it on, or on a sheet of tinfoil,
0:02:18and put it on 350. And that's my tip, by the way, is you put, for Fahrenheit people, 350 degrees,
0:02:24you put the pizza in, you wait until your oven says, "I've reached 350 degrees," and then you
0:02:30just take the pizza out. You eat it. But it does take a little while because unlike, I'm going to
0:02:34admit here, unlike the toaster oven, it takes a little while to heat up the whole oven. So
0:02:41toaster ovens have got us there. In fact, that's the thing that I will acknowledge,
0:02:45the toaster ovens are superior for. I do not reheat pizza enough to buy a toaster oven and have a big
0:02:51extra appliance sitting on my counters. I have limited counter space. Toaster oven,
0:02:57waste of space for me. Sorry. No, thanks. Prefer the slot toaster. But sometimes I'm impatient or
0:03:05lazy and I don't want to. And you know what? Pizza is great cold too. It's just different.
0:03:10So sometimes I reheat it and sometimes I don't. That's just how it is, Zach. Sometimes you feel
0:03:14like it. Sometimes you don't. I agree with you because so much work when I have pizza from
0:03:21yesterday and I might just want to just take a munch. I don't want to reheat it. It's good cold.
0:03:25It's fine. You just do the whole thing. You just do it. It's easy peasy. A little real-time follow-up
0:03:31from our friend James Thompson in the Really AFM Members Discord saying microwave old pizza is just
0:03:38fine. I think fine is emphasized there. So it's fine. And he's right. I've done it. I don't prefer
0:03:46it. But is there an interim state between eating it cold and waiting all the time it takes to heat
0:03:52it up? In which you might microwave it just out of desperation? Yes, there is. But I don't recommend
0:03:59it because it's all floppy and not that great. But again, pizza is good in all its forms. For all I
0:04:05know, you could crunch on some frozen pizza and it'd be good. Why wouldn't it be? We have entered
0:04:11into a completely new realm of follow-up in that I've been getting just so much follow-up about
0:04:19pizza to the upgrade feedback, which is fine. We're not going to go over it all, but I appreciate
0:04:25the people letting me know. Multiple people, Jason, tell me that they've gone to the Utah place
0:04:30that you spoke about and had the pizza and liked it. I appreciate it. If this is where people want
0:04:35to send their pizza information to, they can. You know what you get with us? You don't get any
0:04:39judgment. There's no judgment here. I was going to joke and say we ought to start getting pizza
0:04:44related sponsors, but that already happened. We've already got one. We've got the best one already.
0:04:49Don't need to do that. Not today though. If you would like to send in a Snail Talk question of
0:04:54your own, just go to upgradefeedback.com, tick the box that says Snail Talk and send one in. You may
0:05:00help us start a future episode of the show. Next week is the draft. I'll talk about that in a
0:05:05little bit. If you have any draft related Snail Talk questions, you might want to send one in.
0:05:09Maybe we'll do one. Maybe we won't. Maybe we'll keep you guessing. A little bit of a follow-up
0:05:14for you, Mike. It's not a box you tick. It's a pop-up and you have to select the pop-up.
0:05:20Yeah, you know why? On my side on the back, it is a box that I tick to see those. So yes,
0:05:25you are correct. It is a, what do they call those? Like a something. A pop-up. Drop down, pop up.
0:05:31Drop down. It's a little menu. You got to select Snail Talk from the menu.
0:05:35There you go. Do that. The picker, the chooser, the whatever. Just pick it,
0:05:40but don't look for a box to tick because the only box to tick is the one that says keep me anonymous.
0:05:46Don't do that unless you need to be anonymous because otherwise I have to call you a nun.
0:05:50Do you want to be called a nun or do you want your real name? You let me know. You'd be a part
0:05:54of Mike's secret pizza. Tick line. Tip informers. Yeah. We had some follow-up sent in to the form.
0:06:02Non-pizza related. Send in information. Yes. About past key sharing. So there was a couple
0:06:09of things here. Adam said, because we were talking about past key sharing in Upgrade Plus.
0:06:13Last time I was expressing some concern about how would you share past keys between individuals. Like
0:06:20if you have like a shared login. Adam wrote in and said an account only has a single password,
0:06:25but can have multiple past keys associated to it. So you don't need to share past keys.
0:06:30Instead you register multiple past keys on a single account. The problem is signing the
0:06:34other person in remotely so they can add their past key. Signing in someone remotely is kind
0:06:39of like phishing, which is what past keys are set up to prevent. So currently you would have to be
0:06:43physically together to set it up. So that's fine. Makes sense. I guess I'm intrigued about what one
0:06:49password are going to do when it comes to that. I think that maybe their implementation might be
0:06:52different. Peter writes in and says one passwords past key support will soon be released and then
0:06:57past keys could be shared in a multi-person vault or similar in much the same way that existing
0:07:03passwords can be shared. And I took a look at one passwords website. They have like a bunch of
0:07:08information about past keys, which you would understand because like they're trying to be very,
0:07:13very past key focused. So they still have a business, I suppose. Uh, but I actually think
0:07:20that there is a lot of benefits still to having something like one password for me, I think when
0:07:26even it comes to past keys, because one of the things that concerns me about changing from
0:07:32passwords to past keys is like, will I still have this like central place where I can manage them
0:07:38all? You know what I mean? Right? Like what I like about one password is I have all of my passwords
0:07:43in one password and what I wasn't sure about when it came to past keys is like, do they just exist
0:07:49in the iOS passwords app? Because I don't want that to be the case for me. Um, but one password
0:07:56I've put together all this stuff and it looks very easy to save your past keys into there. And then
0:08:01it also seems like you can share them from there as well. So that's coming on June 6th. Like there
0:08:06is, is one passwords, um, support for past keys. But I think right now there just isn't a lot of
0:08:14past keys that you can create, but this would make me feel more comfortable personally to move some
0:08:19of my passwords over if I could also still just have them in one password, which is where I like
0:08:23my passwords. Great. You use one password, right? Do you feel any particular way about having your
0:08:31past keys in there? Like would that make you more likely to swap over to a past key login if you
0:08:36could put it in there? Right now I'm happy to use Apple system because they're all just for me, but
0:08:42I, um, I would definitely like to have the ability to share those with Lauren and potentially other
0:08:50members of my family. Um, if, if you picture a world where everything's a past key, then I need
0:08:58a way to share those past keys and you know, this would be a, uh, our existing workflow to use that.
0:09:03So that would be, that would be nice. And we all, you know, we use one password to share all sorts
0:09:06of other stuff too, you know, frequent flyer, mile numbers and all sorts of stuff like that.
0:09:11Drivers license numbers. Yeah. Jason, you have experienced the quad box, the quad box,
0:09:18quad box, everyone. The quad box has arrived. Can you, uh, so this was the multi view
0:09:25multi view for the TV sports stuff on Apple TV 4k. Can you tell me what the quad box experience
0:09:33was like? Um, I think it's really good. It's different from my experience with the Fubo TV
0:09:40quad box that I use for my, um, over the top. Uh, I've got, yes, it's compared to quad box.
0:09:45It's like absolute gibberish. It's a Fubo TV quad box. Mike, welcome to comparative quad box.
0:09:53I'm, I'm your professor, Jason, Jason, Jason, Jason. Oh, that's good. That's good. It's very
0:10:01refined. So the way you work, the way it works is there's an additional square. That's the latest
0:10:05version of TV OS. So in addition to when you, when you bring up the kind of, uh, the player UI,
0:10:10there's like the picture in picture button and there's a, uh, uh, audio streams button and a
0:10:15subtitles button. And then there's now a, uh, a quad box button. That's a little four square
0:10:21kind of thing. And if you hit that, what happens is the, the video stream you're watching pulls back
0:10:27and up from the bottom of the screen comes a lit a list of, and this is all in the TV app only right
0:10:32now. Um, it's a list of other available live content, um, that's playable in the TV app.
0:10:40So if you click on another, so, uh, if you're watching MLS, another MLS game or a baseball game
0:10:48on Friday night, or both, if both are going on, um, and what will happen is that item,
0:10:54those little items are down at the bottom of the screen with little pluses, and then you click one
0:10:58and it adds it to the playing area at the top of the screen. And it plus turns into, I think,
0:11:03a check and your, the one you're already watching is also down there and it's already checked,
0:11:07right? So the idea is down below there is sort of like, what is in the quad box for, you know,
0:11:13again, two, two by two, uh, you know, it could be two or it could be three, it could be four.
0:11:18Um, you swipe up and the stuff on the bottom goes away to bring it back. You swipe back down to
0:11:24bring up the multi-view kind of control. Um, you can choose, there's some different layouts.
0:11:29There's kind of like a big and small, um, there's a, uh, four, you know, in, in the square, the
0:11:35classic quad boxes, I would call it, but there's also one where there's one on the left and then
0:11:39three in a stack on the right that are small. Depends on your preference really to, to how you
0:11:45want to watch this. And then in terms of how you use it, you can very much like Fubo, um, if you
0:11:50swipe around, it'll change where the audio input is coming from. So you can listen to audio from
0:11:54any of them. Um, unlike Fubo, um, so Fubo, when you're in that multi-up view, uh, where there's
0:12:03like a big one, a little one, I believe you can click on one and it makes it the big one,
0:12:07click on a small one and makes it the big one. Apple doesn't work like that. And it actually,
0:12:11I think is maybe a smarter move. So with Apple, you do exactly what you might expect, which is
0:12:15that if there's a little one that you want to make the big one, you tap and hold essentially like,
0:12:21so that it wiggles. I don't think it actually wiggles, but it's that same gesture. And then
0:12:25you swipe it over and it just becomes the big one instead of the small one. You can rearrange
0:12:29the windows that way. And if any of them are ones that you want to see at full screen, you,
0:12:34you click and it zooms in full screen. So you can very quickly, once you learn the gestures,
0:12:39have like your four up of four different soccer games and swipe around the audio and then tap
0:12:44and zoom into one where it's very exciting and then hit back and it goes back. The one thing I
0:12:49also noticed that's different, and I don't know what Fubo is doing in the background, but Apple
0:12:54is not maintaining the streams when you're not viewing them. So when you zoom into one,
0:13:01Apple seems to drop the other streams. It's only streaming the game you're watching,
0:13:05which makes sense, right? But what it means is that when you zoom back out, the other three
0:13:10streams are stills and then they pick up and they start to play. It's a little less elegant, but
0:13:16if Fubo, if I'm watching two things at once and I'm zoomed into one of them, is it streaming the
0:13:21other one in the background? And it probably shouldn't be, but I think maybe it is. So anyway,
0:13:26yeah, you can watch multiple things on it. And I think if you've got Apple TV channels,
0:13:32and so you're subscribing to other services that have sports within the TV app, I think you can
0:13:39use multi-view for that too. But what's missing, and who knows, maybe we'll see it at WWDC. We
0:13:46should put it on the draft list, is it would be really nice if this feature worked across apps
0:13:51so that you could have multiple views of live sporting events at once across different apps,
0:13:58because a lot of sporting events are in different apps. Maybe we'll get there, but it's a very nice
0:14:03implementation for the very limited kind of content, live sports content that's in Apple's
0:14:09TV app right now. That's good. - The way you described it to me,
0:14:13it sounded like you were kind of doing incantations with the TV remote. Do you think this is
0:14:19complicated? I know you said you got your, like, once you get to know it, it's fine, but is it
0:14:25complicated to learn this stuff? - I think it's pretty intuitive, honestly, because there are not
0:14:30that many things you can do with the Apple TV remote. The one thing that is not entirely
0:14:34intuitive is if you want to pick up and move something. I'd say that's the least necessary
0:14:40of all the gestures. And if you use an Apple TV remote, I mean, I didn't know it did that.
0:14:47I just said, "Well, let's try it." And that's what it did. I was like, "Okay." I intuited that that's
0:14:53probably how it worked, and it's totally how it works. So I'm going to give that a thumbs up too.
0:14:57But I think in its most basic form, you're watching one thing and you say, "Put me in
0:15:01the Quad box," and you go add, add, add, and now you've got four, and you're swiping around to
0:15:06change the audio and clicking into whichever one is selected, and it zooms in, and you press the
0:15:11back button, it zooms back out. I think it's pretty straightforward. It's a, I guess, sort
0:15:16of a power user feature, but if Apple's going to get into sports, I mean, this is a sports viewing
0:15:20feature, and it's a great sports viewing feature. So I'm glad they built it. I feel bad if they built
0:15:28it for NFL Sunday Ticket and then they didn't get that contract, but I think it's great for
0:15:34their sporting ambitions going forward. I also heard, I got some feedback that like in certain
0:15:39other countries like yours, there are not a lot of simultaneous sporting events. Like for example,
0:15:43they only show, you know, they don't really show multiple Premier League matches up against each
0:15:48other. I had to break it to that person and that in the U.S. they do. We get to see all of them,
0:15:53which doesn't happen in the UK apparently, which is sad. We have better English soccer than you,
0:15:59apparently. But it's a great feature for sports fans, and if you don't get it,
0:16:03you know, and you're not a sports fan, like, okay, I get it. But trust me, I have on weekends in the
0:16:12fall, especially when like college football is going on, or even on a Sunday with pro football,
0:16:17I have the quad box going on my TV and I love it. So I'm glad Apple has built a better quad box.
0:16:26Also, all the corners are little rounded corners, which is very Apple. It's totally unnecessary,
0:16:33and yet they did it. So that's kind of cute too. It's very Apple.
0:16:36Mime stream 1.0 has shipped.
0:16:40Mime stream.
0:16:40And you wrote about it.
0:16:42Not the best, you know, not the best name, but you know, it's the name.
0:16:46I still don't understand. I, I suggest this a long time ago. Mime mail would have been so much
0:16:54better in my opinion. I don't know why stream is in the title. I like the Apple lot and use it on
0:17:00my Mac. Um, but I find the naming to be curious, but they went with what they went with.
0:17:06It's been two years. So I've been using this. It's been in beta. They've been building it.
0:17:09Mime stream is a Gmail client for macOS. So I used to use Mailplane, which was basically
0:17:16a Mac wrapper of the Gmail web interface, which put it in its own app and gave it the right
0:17:22shortcuts. And let me do sorts of drag and drop and other stuff that integration with the,
0:17:26with macOS made better than just doing it in a web browser window. But that got discontinued due to
0:17:33changes, security changes with Google and Gmail. But into the breach steps, Mime stream, which is
0:17:39written by, it's a team, but the lead guy, uh, used to work at Apple on Notes and Mail. And it feels
0:17:46very, very familiar, I think as a Mac interface, but also like mail a little bit, but it's really
0:17:51good. And it is Gmail native because it's Gmail focused. So Gmail is not, does not behave like
0:17:57IMAP, which is the protocol that people use to check their email. Mostly these days. Um,
0:18:03it's different. It's a little bit weird. And Mime stream is built to use the metaphor that
0:18:08Google is using for Gmail rather than sort of mapping it to IMAP. And it's got a bunch of stuff
0:18:15like you can, you can create filters right in the app. The search is really fast because it's using
0:18:20the Google Gmail search. It's not doing what mail does, which is, you know, at least a lot of cases,
0:18:26downloading all the files locally and then indexing them. And it can be really slow or
0:18:32it can be unreliable. Even when it uses the server, I found that it can be pretty unreliable and slow.
0:18:36A lot of great things to say about it. It's a really good app. It's a subscription app. So
0:18:43there's a discount for year one, at least right now. But you know, you do have to pay annually
0:18:47for it. That is the way of the world today. But for me, it was an instant buy because
0:18:51this is my email client of choice on the Mac. Their number one priority, according to Neil,
0:18:57Neil Mime stream is, is iOS. So, you know, they, they're not making any commitments to win,
0:19:04but their next priority is to ship it. People are asking like, can you support other mail formats
0:19:09and can you bring it to iOS? And what, what he told me is that iOS is their number one priority
0:19:15so that you can use the same app on your Mac and on your iOS devices. And then they will,
0:19:20they obviously are also interested in supporting IMAP. It's a bigger challenge because of what I
0:19:26said, because IMAP is not Gmail. And so they're going to have to do the reverse of what all those
0:19:32clients that use IMAP on Gmail and have to figure out how to, how to, you know, deal with the fact
0:19:38that it's not really IMAP, it's kind of Gmail. Mime stream is going to have to do the reverse,
0:19:41but they built a really nice, reliable, fast client that I vastly prefer to Apple mail.
0:19:48And you do too, I think. And so, uh, and you have a Macintosh, this is the app you should be using.
0:19:55Like I had a great question from a reader who said, why would I use this instead of, um,
0:20:00instead of, uh, Gmail and web browser? And I said, cause it's an app. I mean, it's,
0:20:03that's the answer is cause this is a full on written in Swift Mac app that gives you Gmail.
0:20:09It is essentially what if Google cared so much about the Mac that it wrote its own fully native
0:20:18custom Gmail client for the Mac as an app, which of course that's not how Google works. They only
0:20:25have apps on mobile devices because it was more expedient than, than telling people to go to their
0:20:30website. They certainly don't care about that on the Mac, but Mime stream does and, uh, it's good.
0:20:36And so now you can, you can buy it and use it. And, uh, and I do recommend it, you know,
0:20:42you know who you are, if you're somebody who wants a really good email client, uh, for the Mac
0:20:46and eventually for iOS. If you ask the question of like, well, when they use the website, then like,
0:20:50this app probably isn't for you. And that's totally fine. Right? Like, I feel like, you know,
0:20:53already, especially if it's a subscription app, you know, you're going to be like, well,
0:20:58really this should be something, you know, you already want because you're frustrated with
0:21:02your email experience because either Apple mail doesn't have all the features you want,
0:21:05or you don't want to just have all of your email done in a web browser tab. Right. And I think
0:21:11that's a very good market of people. I would be as much as I want them to do it. I'd be really
0:21:16surprised if they ever break out of Gmail with this app because they have built this app around
0:21:22the way Gmail works. Right. So for the experience to be consistent, they would have to
0:21:28reverse that for IMAP. Right? So like the idea of the categorization that it does automatically,
0:21:34like they're going to have to work out how to do that. It's possible. Spark does this,
0:21:38all of that stuff. You have to build it yourself. And that is big and complicated. I hope they do do
0:21:45it because that would, to me suggest that the app has been successful enough that they're willing to
0:21:49put the time in, but we'll see. Right. Although I would, I would actually say that maybe the
0:21:55indication that they have to start working on IMAP is an indication that they need more users.
0:21:59Right. That's the other way to look at it is if they're incredibly successful with Gmail, I would
0:22:05feel like it lessens the pressure a little bit, but you're right. It'll always be there. There
0:22:08are always people who are like, I have three Gmail accounts and an IMAP account, please help me. And
0:22:14they don't, they can't serve them until they do that. I will also say one of the other really
0:22:18nice things about MimeStream versus like the web interface is how it handles multiple Gmail
0:22:23accounts because it's easy to do. You can merge them together into one inbox. You can keep them
0:22:28separate and they have this new concept of roles basically. So you can have like, if you've got
0:22:33like three Gmail accounts for business and one for personal, you don't have to switch necessarily
0:22:38among four. You can create a business set and a personal set, and you can switch between those
0:22:44two and the business set will accumulate all your business emails and they can still be tagged and
0:22:48colored of like which one they're from, but it's separate from your personal. You can do that if
0:22:53you want. It supports focus filters. So you can even do it where when you're in focus mode,
0:22:58you will pop, you know, and you're like, you're in personal mode. MimeStream will only show your
0:23:03personal mail. I mean, you set it up however you want, but all of that stuff is in there.
0:23:07And these are all reasons why, I mean, you're going to count on the fact that MimeStream is
0:23:12going to support a lot of core macOS features because the whole purpose of the app is to provide
0:23:17a macOS app experience on Gmail. So they gotta, I mean, that's the secret sauce there. That's the
0:23:23magic is what can we do that a webpage can't do? That's their entire mission with MimeStream,
0:23:29but I think it's very good. I respect their focus because like there are two very core questions
0:23:35that they have decided not to address for version 1.0, right? Like you mentioned is anything other
0:23:40than Gmail, but especially iOS. We're like, nope, it's what we're doing. I applaud that focus and
0:23:44like, I really hope it works out for them because this is a great application. Yep. I agree. And
0:23:50Apple has started to share some details about the WWDC schedule for developers. And there were a
0:23:57couple of intriguing, um, placeholders. So, well, the things that they have, like, you know, that
0:24:04developers know about is they can attend a set of tours inside Apple Park. They have some exhibits
0:24:09and stuff like that, which is really cool. Developers can register for them, but there is a
0:24:13special evening activity on Monday, which feels probably like a bash, right? Like, I don't know,
0:24:21unless it's like, uh, Apple design awards. That's already on there too. The design awards is already
0:24:27on the schedule. So that Monday is like keynote state of the union design awards, and then a
0:24:34special evening activity. Uh, and then on Tuesday, there are three, two and a half hour sessions that
0:24:42the developer center, a morning, afternoon, evening. And you have to register for one of these.
0:24:48This is probably gonna be for trying out the headset, I reckon? They're at the developer center.
0:24:59It's not a bad guess, right? Right. Not necessarily that, but the idea that you have groups,
0:25:05especially keeping in mind that the developers are not a very large contingent, right? No. It's not
0:25:105,000 developers. It's a small number of developers. So what if they let you sign up for slots on
0:25:16Tuesday where you are in a relatively small group and they bring them in and there's a, you know,
0:25:21there's a demonstration and then people are there to try on the headsets one at a time or in groups,
0:25:28right? Where it's like four at a time and the rest of them do something else and you kind of move
0:25:32them through. If I were at Apple, that's what I would do, right? You got to have time for your
0:25:36guest developers to see the headset. And how do you do that? Because it's a one-to-one experience
0:25:41and you've got to come up with a program that lets you kind of like filter them through.
0:25:46And it's almost like a Disneyland ride where you need like the waiting time and then the
0:25:51experience time. So everybody gets 15 minutes experience time. And for the rest of it,
0:25:56what are they doing? Is they're doing something else and you got to kind of funnel them through.
0:25:59It'd be interesting to see how they do it. And for the press, it's the same thing. It's like,
0:26:03how are they going to do that with the press? It's a tough one. I reckon the developer thing
0:26:07will probably follow something akin to the Mac Pro demonstration thing from what's that 2019.
0:26:13When they have like a bunch of Mac, like a bunch of people using the Mac Pro showing you how,
0:26:19like what it could do, right? Like they have that whole kind of like experience thing. But obviously
0:26:24with, I'm assuming probably a hands-on part or maybe not. Like maybe it would just be like,
0:26:30here are four Apple employees. They're all doing something and you can watch them do it. And you
0:26:34can see it on a screen or whatever. We'll find out. But I think that's probably what that's going
0:26:39to be on Tuesday is the entire day to allow a set of multiple hundreds of people try out or see
0:26:47something more up close with the headset. Cause like, we spoke about this before, right? Like,
0:26:53could this be something akin to your original Apple watch experience where like they would
0:26:58show you it, but you couldn't do it because it was on a loop and that might be the case.
0:27:03You can look around and stuff, maybe reach out and touch something and all that, but then it just
0:27:08keeps going, right? A completely guided experience. Certainly if there's anything, it's going to be
0:27:12something like that. Do you think that that Monday night event is a concert? Yeah. The reason that
0:27:17I'm inclined to believe that it is, is not just for the developers, right? Think of this from an
0:27:22Apple perspective. If they're launching WWDC, making all their announcements there, including
0:27:30the headset, you could argue that that's like a really good opportunity to throw a party. And so
0:27:37you throw a party for developers and media and VIPs and Apple employees. And they all come to the
0:27:46inside of the ring. Yep. Maybe. Yep. That's where it's going to be. The rainbow stage. Yep. Special
0:27:52evening activity. So from Matt Groomer's, Apple says that the special activity is one attendees
0:27:58quote, "Won't want to miss with food and beverages provided." It's a party. Oh, I mean, come on. Yeah.
0:28:04Maybe there's a band. Definitely there's a party. Yeah. So yeah. Great. Awesome. Probably not Spinal
0:28:13Tap. Who knows? I always was picking Spinal Tap. Could be. Maybe this is going. I like Federico's,
0:28:18I like Federico wondering about Boy Genius because they're in California. That would be,
0:28:23that would be really awesome. I'd be there if I could. And maybe I will. I'm not saying like,
0:28:29I can't. I'm saying I will be. I will be there if I'm invited. How about that? I will be there
0:28:33if I'm invited. Yep. Can't wait. So this episode is our final regular episode before WWDC.
0:28:42So next week will be the draft, which we are in preparation on trying to narrow down our picks.
0:28:50And so we'll be making our draft picks. I will be putting my championship on the line for the year.
0:28:56You're right side up pennant and my downward facing sad pennant. Yes. On the line. I'll be on
0:29:04the line. So what obviously something of note is as we're recording this, which is the 22nd of May,
0:29:11final cut and logic are due out for the iPad tomorrow, which is May 23rd.
0:29:17We will not be talking about these until at least after WWDC at this point. So just as a note,
0:29:26like we just want, we're not going to talk about it on the draft. I doubt we're going to have time
0:29:30to talk about it on the WWDC episode. So it's going to be later on, but I'm sure we'll talk
0:29:37about that in my backyard. Maybe. Summer of fun. Summer of fun. It's coming. But yeah, so we're
0:29:44also planning on, on revise, uh, reprising the outside podcast that we did last year. You can
0:29:51listen to my birds. So we want to do again, cause we had such a good time, but that last time
0:29:57it was the best part of WWDC for me last year. I hope that that won't be the case this year,
0:30:04but who could tell? Uh, so we've got that going on. And so, uh, yeah, we won't be talking about
0:30:09anything kind of final cut related until then, but hopefully we'll pick it up as part of the summer
0:30:14of fun. This episode is brought to you by our friends at ZocDoc. It sucks when you have to go
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0:30:31maybe rushed you along and maybe you've waited for hours in the waiting room. And then maybe instead
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0:31:04sun. The waiting room experience when it comes to doctors is like my least favorite thing. I
0:31:10hate going to the doctor's office, sitting in the waiting room for 20 minutes. And we're already
0:31:16like, I hate all of that stuff. I love being able to do these things over a video call, over a phone
0:31:21call, because then you can just take a very short break out of your day. And ZocDoc allows you to do
0:31:27this really takes the frustration away. And honestly, for me, makes it more likely that
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0:32:08ZocDoc.com/upgradefm, ZocDoc.com/upgradefm. Our thanks to ZocDoc for their support of this show and
0:32:18all of Relay FM. Saddle up, partner. It's time for a rumor roundup. Mike, I feel like the sun is low
0:32:27in the sky and we might be done with some rumor roundups for a little while. Yes. But let's ride
0:32:34one last time. The Wall Street Journal is repor- Come on. I like it. The Apple executives have banned
0:32:41the use of chatgpt and other AI utilities from being used for work at the company. This includes
0:32:47GitHub co-pilot for helping developers with their code issues. There is a concern at Apple that these
0:32:54tools could be a threat to Apple's secrecy guidelines if people are querying them to aid in
0:32:58their work. Yeah. Hey, chatgpt, here's my top secret Apple code. Can you help me with it?
0:33:05You're sending your top secret Apple code to chatgpt. Don't do it. All right. I was thinking,
0:33:10like, I have got a marketing press release. Can you just check it over for grammar? Right? Like,
0:33:13these are things that people are doing more and more, right? It actually shows you that there is
0:33:18going to be a serious market in the future for AI assistant technologies that you can run on a local
0:33:28private instance, right? Where, you know, keep your secret stuff secret by paying us to install
0:33:36your thing or whether you can do it yourself. But I think there will be companies that will come to
0:33:41your place with this. Well, funnily enough, open AI is one of them. Like, open AI is working on this
0:33:48for Morgan Stanley, like a locked down version of chatgpt. But yes, I think this is what Microsoft
0:33:58is probably focusing on too a little bit more, right? Like, a lot of the stuff around Office is,
0:34:03like, we are using your information. Because the problem with something like chatgpt is,
0:34:10like, you could take, I do not know if GitHub works like this, but the idea is,
0:34:13you can, there are certain things that you can do, certainly Apple does this, where it is end to end
0:34:19encrypted. Where, like, you see it because you have got a key, you are logged in. But, like,
0:34:24it is stored encrypted and that the service cannot see it. The problem with chatgpt is, it has got to
0:34:30see it, right? It has got to see it. It has to decrypt it. It cannot have it. And if it is running
0:34:35on somebody else's servers, it could be a leak. People could see what you are typing, what you are
0:34:41pasting into those documents. So, for that reason, very privacy and secrecy oriented companies,
0:34:48government agencies, are going to need, if it is truly the case that this AI stuff is going to have
0:34:57value, productivity value, it has either got to run on device, which, you know, a lot of the stuff
0:35:04will be able to run on device. Our devices are powerful enough. Or, at the very least, it needs
0:35:08to be put in a system where it can be self-hosted so that you have some trust that it is not leaving
0:35:14your company. >> Yep. Very important. On that same kind of topic area, TechCrunch have recognized
0:35:21that Apple has been on the hunt for more AI talent. There are dozens of job postings available
0:35:27currently on their careers page looking for generative AI experts. These began posting
0:35:33at the end of April and they are being consistently added to their over 28
0:35:36AI job roles in that time period. >> We found the place where Apple is not slowing down hiring.
0:35:43>> Yep. I was thinking that exact thing, right? They are not freezing in this area because they
0:35:48need the talent. >> No. They do. They do. Yeah. I mean, it is a sign that they feel
0:35:56behind or stressed out or they have lost people. Whatever it is, there is something going on there
0:36:02where Apple definitely needs more. I think Apple, look, Apple clearly is spending a lot of effort on
0:36:10machine learning and AI. Maybe not in the way that others are. But it is also possible that the AI
0:36:16stuff has gone in directions that Apple either hasn't anticipated or that Apple doesn't have
0:36:21the capability to do right now and they need to staff up even further. It is not like they are
0:36:25doing nothing. I was laughing at a conversation about Apple being perceived as being, you know,
0:36:30doing nothing and being behind when they have literally built machine learning AI special cores
0:36:36into their processors for the last few years. They know. But they have also got some blind spots and
0:36:43have missed some things. Not surprising. Are we surprised that Apple wants to hire more AI?
0:36:49>> Because they have been doing a lot of stuff in machine learning. But they have been using machine
0:36:54learning like a scalpel. Very specific things. >> Tim Cook even said it was woven. Like a loom
0:37:04or something. They are weaving it in. That is nice. But it is very conservative.
0:37:10>> What they don't have is this mass consumer facing product. That is what they need to work on.
0:37:19And then we take a shot left turn to go to Mark's power on newsletter where he notes that Apple will
0:37:25soon be selling the Nike made Ted lasso through the Apple online store. >> There will be QR codes.
0:37:32It must be they are tired of hearing this in the retail stores. There will be QR codes or something
0:37:37in the retail store that will say if you would like your Ted lasso scan this code and go to the
0:37:42online store. That is where you buy your Ted lasso merch. >> This will be the first time clothing has
0:37:46been sold in the Apple store. >> You have to go to the Apple stores on Apple campuses in order to get
0:37:52the Apple. I have a six colors Apple rainbow T-shirt. They don't sell those in the regular
0:37:56retail stores. Only in the special locations. This is going to be a change for them. I think
0:38:02it is great. I think they should do it. I honestly think they should put it in the retail stores too.
0:38:05But they probably have done the profit calculations and realized even an overpriced
0:38:10branded shirt is not as profitable as literally anything else in the Apple store. Fair enough.
0:38:15Putting it in the online store makes sense. There is no problem with storage. They have the room for
0:38:20it to show it off. I expect them to do more. This is one of those areas. Julie Alexander and I
0:38:25talked about this on downstream the other week. Three or four weeks ago. Disney, I don't know if
0:38:33you noticed it. I don't know if we mentioned it here. Disney added a store tab in the Mandalorian
0:38:40where you could buy merch. They put it in the Disney+ app. Think about it. Of course Disney did.
0:38:48This is the company that has you exit through the gift shop. Everything about Disney is about the
0:38:53big picture experience. It is not like they come in, they watch the Mandalorian and they leave.
0:38:57It is like no no no. They come in, they watch the Mandalorian and then they buy a baby Yoda.
0:39:01That is how it works. Then they go to Disneyland and they see a Mandalorian walking around. This is
0:39:06Disney. Apple is not quite Disney but Apple will leave no stone unturned when it comes to
0:39:14revenue or at least that seems to be their approach. Why would you not merchandise your
0:39:19entertainment product now that you have it? I would be surprised if it stops with Ted Lasso.
0:39:25This is just the easy one. This is the easiest one. It is a good one to test. It is also two years
0:39:33too late but it is good that it is here. It is literally going to be appearing as the show ends.
0:39:38Good. Let's get this started. As we assume the show will end.
0:39:44I think I have a view but I don't know if I have shared it on the show. My theory is that
0:39:49season four will become a show called Roy Kent. I think it is going to be a Roy Kent spinoff and
0:39:57Roy takes over the team and Ted goes back and maybe does some cameos every now and then.
0:40:02But I think that is not a continuum. I have heard the theory that there are going to be
0:40:06multiple shows and that Ted goes back to America could actually be another show or a continuation
0:40:14of Ted Lasso. I think one of the undercurrents of Ted Lasso's production is that Jason Sudeikis
0:40:21got a divorce and has kids that he doesn't see very often because they are in America and he is
0:40:26in London for long periods of time shooting Ted Lasso and he doesn't want to keep doing that.
0:40:32He is in charge. It is possible that he is essentially going to exit. It is also possible
0:40:40that he is going to come back to the states but still get some of that sweet sweet Ted Lasso
0:40:46money while also allowing his cast and crew who are UK based to stay and continue the franchise
0:40:55there. We will have to see. We are proceeding under the assumption that Ted Lasso season 3 is
0:41:00the end of the story. I feel very strongly that since they have not said anything about it since
0:41:06then, I know there is a writer's strike now, but it feels to me like the end of season 3 of Ted
0:41:12Lasso is necessary for the announcements. I feel like they are sitting on something.
0:41:19Matt DeWitt I will say, Savva in the Discord has said,
0:41:25Ted Lasso coaches an MLS team which is that Disney-like vertical integration.
0:41:30Right? Because Apple control Major League Soccer now. You know what, forget it. Have Jason Sudeikis
0:41:40become the actual coach of an MLS team. Let's go 4D chess on this one.
0:41:44Matt DeWitt I like it. I think it will be interesting to see what
0:41:49Brett Goldstein does. Roy Kent is a phenomenon. He has also got another Apple TV show with Bill
0:41:55Lawrence. They are doing Shrinking. I wonder, especially if Jason Sudeikis either stepped away
0:42:00or went off to do something with Ted Lasso in America, if that would mean that Brett Goldstein
0:42:04and Bill Lawrence would pick up the reigns of a Roy Kent. We say Ted Lasso and Roy Kent, but these
0:42:13are ensembles. There are like, what, 15 characters in Ted Lasso? I mean, it's enormous. That's part
0:42:19of the problem of them trying to land this plane. The episodes are getting to be an hour long each
0:42:25because they've got five different storylines and they need to service all of these characters.
0:42:28Anyway, it cracked the Nielsen Streaming Top 10, which is a big deal. That's almost entirely
0:42:40Netflix stuff. The only Disney stuff on there is Star Wars and Marvel. For Ted Lasso to be there,
0:42:46Star Trek Picard was the first Paramount thing to ever crack it. It cracked it the last couple
0:42:51of months. Ted Lasso was there. It is, by all measurements, awards and viewing figures,
0:42:58Apple's biggest thing. I'm sure, as we've said before, Apple will back up the truck of money,
0:43:03or perhaps already has backed up multiple trucks of money to various houses in order to continue
0:43:09with something that's Ted Lasso related. But to pay for that, they're also going to sell Ted
0:43:13Lasso shirts in the Apple store. So we're going to park the horses for a bit. We're going to come
0:43:22back to- You don't park horses. Is that what you do? We're going to hitch them. We're going to tie
0:43:28them up at the hitching post. I wouldn't be surprised if the word parking has some kind of
0:43:35etymology in horses, but we can leave that for another time. Okay. Well, you're just opening us
0:43:40up to a world of horse-related follow-up, and as somebody who was injured in a buggy accident as a
0:43:45child- You don't want it. Who better than me to field those questions about horses? I grope
0:43:51with horses. I don't know if that's a good idea. We're going to talk about accessibility features.
0:43:56So in honor of Global Accessibility Awareness Day, Apple has once again, as they have for multiple
0:44:02years now, previewed some accessibility focused features that will be coming in iOS 17. So they
0:44:09break these out, give them their own time in the sun, which is a really great idea. There are a
0:44:14whole selection of features, but Apple focuses on three main ones. The biggest one is something
0:44:20called Assistive Access, which in a nutshell simplifies and can give you the options to
0:44:27simplify the entire UI of iOS to aid those with cognitive disabilities. It is a fully customizable
0:44:35experience. You can have your entire UI just be these huge buttons or big text labels or tables
0:44:42that you can access from- like, you know, you got all your apps in just a table, there's no home
0:44:46screen, huge high contrast iconography, and there's a whole set of tools available for a more tailored
0:44:54experience. Like, so you can put things in grids and rows and stuff. This is like, this feels pretty
0:45:00massive as like a thing to do. It's like, oh, how about we give you the opportunity to rewrite the
0:45:07entire operating system? This seems super cool. Yeah. There's live speech, which will allow a
0:45:13user to type what they want to say to somebody and have it spoken out loud from the phone, either in
0:45:21person, so do it from the phone speaker, or if you're on a FaceTime call, you can type out what
0:45:25you want to say and the person will hear it. You can also create a machine learning version of your
0:45:32own voice using a system called Personal Voice. So you record yourself saying, or you speak to the
0:45:38phone saying a bunch of things. And then I think it's like over many hours, the phone will go away
0:45:44and create basically an AI version of your own voice, which you can then use for the live speech
0:45:51function. This is mainly focused on those who are at risk of losing their voice. So this would give
0:45:57them the ability to still be their own person when using these features. And also point and speak in
0:46:05the magnifier app. So you can hold up your camera and using the camera and LIDAR, you can point your
0:46:11camera at some buttons. The system will read and process the buttons and labels so you can point
0:46:16with them with your finger and it will be like, that's the start button, that's the stop button.
0:46:20Wild stuff again. They're just continuing to do some huge things of accessibility here,
0:46:27which is just so cool to see. - Shelley Brisbane wrote about this at Six Colors,
0:46:31and that was the one that blew me away as she said, you know, you're standing in front of a
0:46:35vending machine and you point at the buttons and it says like, which one is Coke and which one is
0:46:38Pepsi and which one is... And like, you don't think about it, but if you have vision issues,
0:46:43this feature makes every bit of, like every interface in the world becomes accessible.
0:46:54- It's like voiceover but for the world, right? - Exactly. And the idea that, you know,
0:47:01if you can't read the buttons and you're standing in front of a vending machine,
0:47:06what the hell do you do, right? And the answer is, it's not a problem. Also, I had that thought,
0:47:10which is, this is also the future of Apple augmented reality, is stuff like this. And I
0:47:22heard from some people who were like, oh, well, this is interesting because you could put it in
0:47:26the Apple headset and it's got cameras and it could do that. It's like, you could. And like,
0:47:30in the long run, I think these features do go together with augmented reality and the fact that
0:47:34you could wear this around. But there's probably, and I'm just spitballing here, something for down
0:47:40the road for an Apple product, but like, as long as you can get a camera, which is a challenge
0:47:47because right now, like AirPods don't have cameras, but as long as you can have a camera,
0:47:52you should be able to do this now, right? Like if your AirPods had cameras or if you could put on
0:48:01some glasses or just put a little teeny tiny camera on your glasses, this feature, I know
0:48:08AirPods don't have the processing power right now to do something like this, but I'm just saying,
0:48:12if you extrapolate this, you don't need a full on AR headset to make the entire world accessible.
0:48:19- No, you could put your phone in a lanyard. - You could. I mean, this is what that Humain,
0:48:25Humain has that demo, that startup where it's got like, we're not gonna tell, it's some weird stuff
0:48:31going on there, but one idea is that you put your phone in, or this Humain thing, in a pocket,
0:48:35a shirt pocket, and the camera's facing out, and it does it. But there are ways you could do it,
0:48:41but the idea is, as long as you've got that processing power and it's in your ears,
0:48:45that alone is an incredible amount of augmentation of reality for people who need it via
0:48:52accessibility, but arguably for everybody. But certainly imagine the boon that would be to
0:48:58somebody with low vision if they could walk around basically as normal, not even holding up a phone
0:49:04eventually, and being able to, through gestures, decode the entire world around them so that they
0:49:10could get those inaccessible things to be accessible. It's awesome. This technology is amazing.
0:49:15- Yeah, so much of it. As you mentioned, Shelley, who wrote about this on Six Colors,
0:49:21Shelley also has a podcast here on Relay FM called Parallel, where she dives into this in more
0:49:26detail. So if you want more detail from somebody who actually needs and uses these tools, you can
0:49:30go and check that out on Relay.fm/parallel. It's episode 82. But I love that they do this stuff,
0:49:38obviously. I like that they give it this focus now, because if this was part of WWC, the demo
0:49:45would still be really fascinating, but it would be part of the news for that day, right? That day,
0:49:53everyone would have that as one of the many articles written. But by doing it this way,
0:49:58a couple of days before, it gets everyone to actually spend time thinking about it,
0:50:05focusing on it, like, how would this be useful? Why would you need this? And also, for us,
0:50:11I see things like that, and I'm like, oh, who in my life could benefit from this in a way that I
0:50:18might not otherwise think about it, because I'm focusing on 2,000 different things on WWC keynote
0:50:23day. So super cool. Yeah, it's a good thing that they do it now. We talked about it all this time.
0:50:29Would we have talked about it all this time if it was amid 800 other announcements? Well,
0:50:34of course not. Even if we care about the subject, because there are so many other announcements. So
0:50:38I like how they do it. It does require them to get a little shifty about, you know, first off,
0:50:43they have to, they can't pull out anything that gives anything away, right? So it's big,
0:50:48because these are new iOS features that they're announcing in advance of WWDC. They don't say
0:50:54where they're coming. They don't put it in that frame, but that's what they are. And I know,
0:50:59I was listening to your podcast with, well, you weren't on it last week, but connected talked
0:51:05about this. It was my subversive element, John Voorhees, my fellow Jay, who was there with
0:51:12Federico and Steven. And they were talking about this and they both suggested there's that part
0:51:17where it's sort of like, oh, and it'll put this information about where you are in the Notes app.
0:51:22And they all immediately said, that's the journaling app, right? That's not actually
0:51:27the Notes app. That's the journaling app they haven't mentioned yet. And that's why. And there's
0:51:32like a shortcut that they're like, there's this shortcut that does this. So it says, shortcuts
0:51:36adds, remember this, which helps users with cognitive disabilities create a visual diary
0:51:42in Notes for easy reference and reflection. It's like, you could do that now. Why is that?
0:51:46And then you start to unravel and you're like, eh, they're probably hiding something there,
0:51:50right? It's probably more complex. It probably involves that journaling app that we talked about,
0:51:54but they aren't announcing that right now. Okay. They're just doing accessibility. So
0:51:58this is, I appreciate that they do it because this is not a zero effort kind of thing for them
0:52:04to give this stuff the spotlight while they're also having to do the work to hide the secrets
0:52:09for next month. This episode is brought to you by Ladder. Look, let's be real. If you're like me,
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0:53:56Ladder for their support of this show and Relay FM. So mentioned this is the last episode that
0:54:04we'll do before like proper episode that we'll do before WWDCs and I'll give you a room around
0:54:09up next week. And there have been lots of pieces of information about the headset so I thought we
0:54:15would because this is the big thing right we're gonna try and tie as much of a bow around it as
0:54:21possible with some of this stuff as we get ready to head into prime WWDC season and we will start
0:54:29with an interesting set of reports from Mark Gurman detailing the thoughts and feelings of
0:54:37executives at Apple on the headset project. Just in general a fascinating set of things. I actually
0:54:45preferred the version as I tend to in the power on newsletter which just gave more of a breakdown of
0:54:51basically every executive involved in the project and where their expected stance is which was
0:54:58intriguing. Again this seems like a lot of information to have gotten and I really wonder
0:55:05where Mark got this information but it's super fascinating to me. So there is some skepticism
0:55:13about the headset project. Interestingly Tim Cook is described as having displaying
0:55:20relative non-involvement in the project which has apparently frustrated staff members.
0:55:26Yeah let me decode that though. My guess is that frustrated staff members means there are people
0:55:33who don't like things that happened and wish Tim would have intervened and he didn't. That's my
0:55:40read on that. I could be wrong but do we expect Tim Cook to be really involved in product development?
0:55:47I thought that one of the great things about Tim Cook is that he knows that he's not the product
0:55:53guy and that he's looking at big picture strategy things and looking at the price and looking at the
0:55:58timing and all of those things but otherwise not being involved. So I could be wrong. Again I'm
0:56:04just guessing here but my immediate reaction when I saw that was I don't know that feels like sour
0:56:08grapes from people who didn't get their way and were hoping Tim would override the people who made
0:56:13the decisions and he didn't because he doesn't want to do that. Because we've heard about like
0:56:18there were differing approaches that they were going to take right and maybe this is part of the
0:56:25frustration that people didn't get the approach that they wanted. I'll tell you how I read this
0:56:30one which is not too dissimilar from you it's just we know that Tim isn't a product person right like
0:56:36but maybe there are people in Apple who were around for the other big product launches you
0:56:41know like maybe the iPhone the iPad that kind of stuff right and their hope would be that they
0:56:45would have a CEO who is involved in a brand new endeavor and maybe that frustrates them and he
0:56:53just isn't because for as much as we know he kind of never is. Craig Federighi has kept his distance
0:57:01from the project seeming wary of the effort. John Gruber on Daring Fireball pointed out
0:57:06this would be quite a task considering he's head of all software for him to do so I don't know what
0:57:11that means I mean look maybe he and I believe maybe he is skeptical but he can't really keep a
0:57:17diss like he can't be like oh no forget it right I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do that.
0:57:23I'm not gonna help you build your fork of iOS that that uses a bunch of stuff that we well
0:57:29the way this is phrased too it is probably more like Craig Federighi never seemed excited
0:57:40and did what he needed to do but never went the extra mile and was reluctant to part with him
0:57:47which I also understand like if this isn't Craig's project and he's really sort of supplying
0:57:52software to someone else's project and he's concerned about the the stuff he's already
0:57:57doing that's very hard with iOS and iPadOS and you know and MacOS and all the other operating systems
0:58:03out there and here's another platform and he's not down into the day the day-to-day of it either
0:58:07he's trying to view this at a higher level then I could see why he might be like reluctant to dive
0:58:15too far into this and right so again I have this thought which is like I mean maybe he thinks it's
0:58:22a stupid idea but like also is this not sort of his job but I do think there's something there
0:58:27which is sort of like Craig didn't go yeah let's let's I'll give you everything I got and you know
0:58:34maybe people maybe people resented it on the headset side or maybe people on Craig's side
0:58:40were like oh I'm so grateful that Craig protected me from the headset people but I don't know I mean
0:58:46it seems like a very simplistic rendering of what was probably a very complicated balance between
0:58:52what you offer as a part of the development of this and also like remember the days of the iPhone
0:58:58the stories about that period of time like you've got the people who are in down deep with the
0:59:02hardware and they've got software that they're using but they are also doing stuff that they
0:59:06like at some point the people working on the project really have to just be down in the project
0:59:11and I view you know unless Craig who knows but like I view that as being Craig Federighi saying
0:59:17I'm gonna be doing this stuff over here while you guys are doing that over there and is that
0:59:21is that spite or is that just how it worked out I don't know maybe I think you're right though
0:59:26right that he's obviously involved but he could just be like doing what needs to be done but he's
0:59:34not an internal champion of the project which is perfectly fair I think uh Johnny Tarruegi is
0:59:41concerned that the focus on silicon for these devices could take away some focus from the iPhone
0:59:48and has also likened the whole idea to something akin to a science project
0:59:52this one feels a bit more harsh yeah although we also don't know here's the other thing how
1:00:00long has this project been going on since 2015 the report says right so okay how did Johnny
1:00:07Tarruegi feel in 2015 how did he feel in 2019 how does he feel today this doesn't say right like
1:00:15and and we know like in this Mark tries to make some links where he's like and honestly the gains
1:00:22in the apple chips in the last couple of years have been a little bit less is that a sign that
1:00:27this is going on it's like I don't know I mean it's really hard to tell like maybe maybe not we
1:00:32don't know you wouldn't know unless you were in there I know that if I'm Johnny Tarruegi and I'm
1:00:38looking at a skunkworks project to make a headset and they're telling me I need to do work on this
1:00:44I would be kind of grumpy because it's like look I've got the crown jewels here with the iPhone
1:00:49and we're doing this whole apple silicon thing with the mac now and you want me to do this thing
1:00:53is it even going to ship like there are certainly eras where it's like you want me to spend money
1:00:57on this science project that you've got going on over here when we're shipping iPhones like that's
1:01:02actually completely reasonable to me without a time frame we can't really tell
1:01:05what that really means and so again we're just left with this little kind of like shreds of
1:01:11gossip that we've got here but I understand that and there is a detail I think in that report which
1:01:17is that there is a wireless processor that they made because there was a version of this headset
1:01:26or at some point along the way that was going to be a box it was going to be a little bit more like
1:01:32a psvr it was going to be a computing box somewhere plugged in and it was where the power was
1:01:40like the computing power and then it would be transmitting the content wirelessly back and forth
1:01:47with the headset and at some point they said let's not do that we're going to put all of it on board
1:01:55and we know that in the vr world that happened right there were a lot of tethered things
1:01:58and then there was the next generation was like no we're going to take the tether away we're going
1:02:02to use smartphone processors we're going to put them on the headsets and that way you don't have
1:02:05cables draping all over you well apparently apple chip designers built the silicon for that box
1:02:12and then it got killed yeah and would I be grumpy about that if I were johnny srirji absolutely like
1:02:18you know we you we took our time to build this thing because you said it was important and now
1:02:23you're not going to do it and we wasted our time so again I get it that was a johnny Ive decision
1:02:30apparently in 2019 the information reported on this that they wanted to do a processing base
1:02:36station but johnny went said that they shouldn't do this that it wasn't the right way to go
1:02:41which I mean we haven't used the headset but I think for what apple is trying to do
1:02:46it isn't the right way to go like it's not going to push them towards vr glasses if they're leaning
1:02:52on processing power being off-boarded right because at some point you've got to move that
1:02:57processing power on board unless everybody's going to have an iphone or something that always has to
1:03:03be with them and is going to be hot and you know plugged into losing its battery and like this
1:03:09this would need to happen at some point the headset has been a product that jeff williams
1:03:14has been a driving force on with the actual product team being led by mike rockwell cook
1:03:21has leaned on williams to make the product a success which this is akin to the kind of stuff
1:03:27that we've been hearing for a while right like obviously jeff has been running the apple watch
1:03:32and now kind of oversees the hardware design team as well dan ricchio is in the mix he is mike
1:03:41rockwell's boss and has worked exclusively on the headset for the last two years ricchio was
1:03:47previously the hardware engineering chief and it is believed inside of apple that ricchio is probably
1:03:52going to retire after this product comes to market interesting very interesting yeah this is the this
1:03:58is the group it makes sense right jeff williams is sort of like please take this across the finish
1:04:02line for me rockwell is the is the kind of product lead and now dan ricchio is in there uh also
1:04:10working on this thing to get it across the finish line because there are obviously different phases
1:04:14in these devices right and and it's such a huge job to bring any new platform out across the finish
1:04:20line to use that keep using that metaphor like you have to change and uh what you do is different
1:04:25because now it's sort of like now we need to produce it in in and mass produce it right like
1:04:30what is involved with that and what are the costs of that and how are we going to set that up and
1:04:33all of that is incredibly complicated so i'm not surprised that jeff williams has gotten the the
1:04:39the tap here to come in and and uh bring it across to completion like uh happening with the apple
1:04:45watch there's a fun detail in marks reporting that dan ricchio uh his last two products never saw the
1:04:53light of day there was like a apple tv tv and the car and so like it's for dan ricchio i'd be
1:05:00surprised if he retires it's like finally but i've been working on products for 10 years and none of
1:05:06them would come out um but yeah i feel like these days we see john tournes right like in places where
1:05:12dan ricchio would have been ricchio was in so many of the white room videos for a really really long
1:05:17time yeah uh greg jaswiak is apparently one of the headset's biggest proponents on the executive team
1:05:24which is helpful because he's got to sell the thing and apparently frank casanova is is leading
1:05:30marketing uh presumably working for jaws and i had that that took me back because frank casanova in a
1:05:36in a previous life was like the quick time guy at apple in like the late 90s still there or back i
1:05:45think back there i think he left and came back but he's apparently uh for those who remember the 90s
1:05:51uh mr quick time is now mr headset uh and yeah jaws wiak is is into it that's good it's good
1:05:58because jaws is going to be out there being like it's amazing so uh mark irman says he's a believer
1:06:05you'd hope so uh and phil schiller will be in charge of the launch event at wwc and apparently
1:06:13really pushed for gaming to be a focus uh schiller is noted to have a expensive vr headset racing rig
1:06:22at home so maybe he wants to replace all of that with his apple headset and this fits with what
1:06:29we've i think heard before which is what happened after phil ascended to the rooftop seems to be
1:06:35that phil is in charge of events and that sort of phil's involved in the apple but yeah yeah right
1:06:42right but like phil phil sort of like not quite retired but reduced and it's sort of like very
1:06:48some specific things that they have coaxed him to to remain doing to keep him uh attached at apple i
1:06:55i think that this is one of those cases where phil doesn't have to be there but he he likes it and
1:07:00they like having him around and so they've they've found this new spot for him but yeah my understanding
1:07:05is that events are phil's thing yeah and it's like events are his thing and then it also makes sense
1:07:10from a place of like you need phil like if you need him he's still there he's there yeah because
1:07:18up on the roof someone with his there isn't anyone right with his level of experience at apple like
1:07:26from the level that he's at for the time period that he has done it right right yeah so he's he's
1:07:35like the the longest serving executive yeah he's the institutional memory yeah of apple at this
1:07:41point yeah uh the whole project as i mentioned earlier began in 2015 the original plan was first
1:07:48to be on mark on the market in 2020 which obviously didn't happen mark german reports that the original
1:07:53intended vision of the project was of course a pair of eyeglasses that could be worn all day
1:07:57all day we were obviously still very far away from that and apple is currently expecting
1:08:02that we are four years from now away from all like just put the glasses on and go out into the world
1:08:10it's a pretty long time but to me we spoke about on this show a million times feels like the
1:08:16earliest time i could imagine like there's so much between this and that i can't see it being four
1:08:24years even that's i agree it seems like a stretch i think 10 probably but like i don't know what they
1:08:30think they can do in four years but i'll give you i'll give you end of the decade like 2030 maybe
1:08:37but four years seems uh a bit much for something like this maybe nine to five mac is reporting on
1:08:44the cost of the headset i want to read a quote here a report from watson xr details the bill
1:08:50of materials for apple's upcoming mixed reality headset if the report is correct the components
1:08:55could cost around 1400 per unit when shipping costs are added it comes to about 1600 the headset
1:09:01is expected to be equipped with an m2 chip 12 gigabytes of ram 512 gigabytes of storage wi-fi
1:09:07six and bluetooth 5.3 the most expensive components are the oled displays which are expected to be
1:09:14280 to 320 each and there will be at least two maybe three who could tell uh on this device so
1:09:23yeah it's it's going to be expensive right and keep in mind this is this is 1600 per unit in
1:09:31parts yep in parts and as we know from all the times the bill of materials people
1:09:39do these stories that get hyped that are like oh that thousand dollar iphone it only cost 128
1:09:46in parts what a rip-off and you're like well no like they have to assemble it and they had to make
1:09:50a bunch of those parts and there's the software and there's like there's so much that goes into
1:09:55development which are obviously going to take a bath on if they've been working on this since
1:09:592015 exactly right like that's not going to be paid back by these headsets yeah so when you put
1:10:06it all together what you get is uh okay 14 or 1600 i think that gives you an idea of the floor
1:10:16of a product like this like even and i don't think it's 1600 right like i don't think that's it i
1:10:22think i think that you're looking at uh a 2000 2500 product like out the door really and that's
1:10:30if they don't which which we've said like i i don't know where their bar is in terms of like
1:10:37the red zone of like you don't go down here in terms of margin but um even if they go into the
1:10:44red zone of margin it's going to be an extremely expensive product but on the other side this is
1:10:49what we've been hearing all along this is an expensive product because it's an expensive
1:10:54product to make and that's because apple has really approached this as the spare no expense
1:11:01state of the art best in class this is what vr and ar can be product yeah and then the challenge is
1:11:08from here they're going to need to iterate and they're going to need to improve things while
1:11:13also trying to get the price down and all the rumors are that there's a second model stream
1:11:19that is going to use the same platform but be a lot cheaper and they they have chosen to go
1:11:26out with the expensive one if you want this to work you've got to blow people away and i think
1:11:30that's the strategy if i if we're if we are flies on the wall inside apple and by the way apple do
1:11:36something about these flies why are there flies all over the place um it but if we are flies on
1:11:40the wall the apple that's got to be the argument right that's got to be the argument is this is a
1:11:44huge thing for the future we're invested in it we think in the long term this is going to be on
1:11:48everybody's faces uh in the short term the tech isn't all there yet but if we're going to go out
1:11:53with something with the tech not all there yet we want it to be the best and define this category
1:11:58and show what is possible and blow people away so that this category continues to exist and that we
1:12:03have set the bar in the category and we and probably we have set the bar in a way that will
1:12:08make it very difficult for anyone else to meet what we've done right like that that's got to be
1:12:12part of it anyways not only are we saying this is going to be the best experience ever but it's like
1:12:16who's gonna match it it's meta right no maybe not because look everyone that has wanted to try vr
1:12:27you know by and large will have gotten an opportunity millions of people around the
1:12:31world have had their first vr experience where it's like wow you know this is amazing i love
1:12:39how good this feels this is i'm so immersed right now all that kind of stuff but now apple has to
1:12:44come in and leapfrog right they have to come in and be like no this is what you can do we'll blow
1:12:50you away some other way and then they can move forward from there we've made this and i've made
1:12:54this comparison before the original iphone was inconceivably expensive for what smartphones cost
1:13:01at the time right like you got smartphones for free your phone was free with your contract or it
1:13:06was like a couple hundred dollars or whatever it's like no it's an 800 smartphone it's why there's
1:13:11that clip of steve balmer laughing so much because it was so expensive compared to the competition
1:13:16and that's where they've got to go again they did it them for a reason because it blew you away and
1:13:21you wanted one and they need to be able to get people like me like you like mkbhd to say i've
1:13:28tried this thing and it you cannot believe how good it is right like that's what they need and
1:13:34that's why you've got to go expensive but now they've got to make sure the software meets it
1:13:38like that's the thing uh john grubber was questioning on during fireball how on earth is
1:13:44apple going to fit everything that they need to into wwdc if you've got ios ipad os mac os watch
1:13:50os and new max is like just the basics and that's letting things go at that point how are you going
1:13:56to fit it in friend of the show zach knox who puts together the draft scorecards for us went through
1:14:02and looked at the run times of the previous six uh wwcs pre-covid three years in a row over two
1:14:10hours since 2020 with the virtual like the video events all under two hours this is going to be two
1:14:16and a half hours right like there's just no way to do it i don't know i think two hours is always
1:14:22the goal for them and i think that cutting things out is a lot easier and compressing things i think
1:14:28it's going to be super high uh compression level yep and let's not forget the keynote is not the
1:14:35end right the keynote is the we want to show this to the masses and they have this great footnote
1:14:41section which is the state of the union and then they've got the the rest of the notes which are
1:14:46the rest of the week right so really you've got some variability in terms of what you can put in
1:14:53the keynote you can really cut it down and say we've got some amazing things and you blast through
1:14:58them and you leave a bunch of stuff on the website because it doesn't matter and the developers are
1:15:02paying attention to state of the union they're paying attention to all the sessions you're trying
1:15:06to get because if you think of it as a an event for everyone an event for a wider audience there
1:15:14is a limit to how much information you can dump on them right so you do two and a half hours
1:15:21i i could make the argument that two and a half hours is just too long and it doesn't matter how
1:15:25much stuff if you've got that much stuff you have two choices pull things out like don't announce
1:15:30them which would be like other products or uh move it to the auxiliary keynote which is state
1:15:39of the union or compress but like nobody wants my argument would be nobody wants to sit through two
1:15:46and a half hours and that that that among the mainstream and that if you want them to form an
1:15:51opinion other than this is really boring you don't want it to go more than two hours and on top of
1:15:56that you undoubtedly have saved the headset for last and the last thing you want is to try
1:16:04everyone's patience with a traditional keynote video and then at the end when it's almost two
1:16:10hours give them another half hour of your most important thing right so if i had to guess and
1:16:17we'll have to do a draft choice about this right i will set the over under and all that but i'm just
1:16:22saying for the purposes of of of not outside of competition i think they want to hit two hours
1:16:28it doesn't mean that they will they may end up brutally at 210 or 220 but i think they're going
1:16:34to try very hard to go to two hours and that would be my argument why is that even if they're it's
1:16:40full of stuff after two hours people are tired they don't care anymore so so it doesn't matter
1:16:45it doesn't matter if you've got three hours worth of stuff people are only going to pay attention
1:16:49to two hours worth of stuff so get it under two hours i think personally they will cut they will
1:16:57edit they will make sure they've got all the things that only have to be there and it will
1:17:02still be over two hours i just i just don't see like a way to to add another like os and hardware
1:17:11like it's that's an hour on its own right like just the headset i feel like but we'll see yeah
1:17:17but i i think the os releases for the other platforms though can be really short i think
1:17:21that's what's gonna happen right i think they're gonna be like hey we've got new we've got new
1:17:25platforms here and in fact the question is will they even do iphone ipad mac os apple tv or will
1:17:31they say let's talk about our platforms and talk about features across all the platforms because
1:17:37right that was the thing that we've been talking about the last few years is at what point do they
1:17:40change the game and talk about ios and mac os and ipad os sort of like interchangeably instead of
1:17:46doing what they've done the last few years which is like artificially withhold features from one
1:17:50so they can announce it in the other and say oh yes and also this works on the previous ones that
1:17:54i that i've already mentioned and the ones i haven't mentioned yet right like they could
1:17:58structure it differently they could keep it simple it's supposed to be a fairly light year in terms
1:18:03of all of this so i wonder if they could they could get that down uh more than usual i feel
1:18:09like the reporting changed from that that was the original one and then you know the last few months
1:18:14we've had all this other stuff right like here's the journaling app and like the like i think there
1:18:20is more than was initially expected keep in mind though what's the purpose i would come back to
1:18:27what's the purpose of this event and the purpose of this event is to have a big stage to do big
1:18:32ideas right and yes to launch normally it's to launch the new os cycles but like if the purpose
1:18:37of this event is to launch the headset the new os cycles can can wait right they can wait for state
1:18:42of the union they can wait for press release and they can wait for the fall when they ship right
1:18:46like it's not it's not necessary to detail every new feature of your operating system in june in one
1:18:54time slot it's really not it's nice and they do it but like if you've got the headset there like you
1:19:01don't you just don't have to you've got all summer and then you're going to have to reintroduce it in
1:19:05the fall right where they do the iphone event and they explain that all the features of the
1:19:09new operating system at the iphone event we're all like we know we heard that in june but the rest of
1:19:14the world doesn't care they forgot or they didn't pay attention because it doesn't matter and
1:19:18everybody's going to be paying attention to the headset so i can make an argument that the the
1:19:22other os stuff will be perfunctory because they can get away with it and then all of us nerds will
1:19:26be like oh god what but what what's on the pages and then we'll be looking at the state of the union
1:19:31and we'll be watching all the videos and we'll be pouring through all those pages and that's fine
1:19:35because that's us nerds the rest of the world is going to be headset headset headset headset and
1:19:40that's kind of the most important part macrumus is reporting that apple has filed trademarks via a
1:19:46shell company for the expected xros but also xr pro os prus
1:19:53so look at the url that's in our show notes like if you click the link in the show notes you can
1:20:00look at the url in the title bar it looks so funny written out like xr p r o os
1:20:11they're just covering their bases right like xr os is bad enough xr pro os that's just it looks bad
1:20:20written and is horrible to say so at that point why would you do it right
1:20:24yeah i think i think this is one of those like legal covering everything but i love that there's
1:20:32a shell company registering these trademarks this that's apple's thing they go to various
1:20:36countries and register trademarks and because of international trademark law
1:20:40you can just deep dive llc has applied for all of these various things in jamaica
1:20:46and in argentina and in new zealand and like they're just all over the place and that's their
1:20:53strategy now right is just flood the zone with various names it works if you enjoy this show
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1:22:04episode with some ask upgrade questions now that apple is getting ready to release their pro apps
1:22:12final cut pro and logic for the ipad do you think they will release xcode this year at wwdc
1:22:19i don't i mean it would be great but i don't and the reason i don't is it feels like there's so
1:22:26much complexity in xcode that is tied to so much that's running on mac os that to bring it all
1:22:34to ipad i i'm not sure ipad os just has the stuff to do it and we see with playgrounds that what
1:22:41they've instead been trying to do is create a development environment that's capable of
1:22:47submitting to the app store but doesn't have all those encumbrances on ipad os at some point
1:22:53playgrounds can't be called playgrounds at some point playgrounds has to be xcode or something
1:22:57like it and be a more you know an even richer development environment but if they released
1:23:06xcode for the ipad i think it would look more like playgrounds i think it would not be full xcode i
1:23:12think that that's where they're headed with that um i prepare i'm prepared to be surprised but i
1:23:17just feel like there's so much about xcode that is designed with the knowledge of what the mac is
1:23:23capable of and mac os it gives them access to as app developers because apple you know apple it
1:23:29does matter apple can make os changes for its apps that's what they're apparently doing with final cut
1:23:34and logic but uh there are limits i'd say there are limits to that i feel like maybe it's something
1:23:43that would need like a we've rethought xcode right and then if they've done that maybe they could do
1:23:51an ipad version you're right it does feel like there's just maybe too much underlying structure
1:23:58that you wouldn't be able to get a convincing version of it on ipad os right like you could do it
1:24:08but it's gonna be missing so much stuff that at that point is it even worth it
1:24:13is it even worth calling it xcode i think that's the question i mean we'll see what people think
1:24:18about final cut right like final cut obviously does not have everything um it's clear from the
1:24:23announcement does not have everything that it does on the mac but they call it the final cut
1:24:27so this is the question like are you just bringing pain on yourself by saying well this is what we
1:24:31call xcode on the ipad and it's not xcode and everybody's like snooty about it like this is
1:24:35next more i'd say more likely that apple is working on a next generation development environment that
1:24:42will run on the ipad that might run on the mac too uh that is uh you know for the next generation of
1:24:48of software whether that's based on playgrounds or it's based on something completely different
1:24:52i think that's more likely than that they would bring what we consider xcode to the ipad i feel
1:24:57like it's fair to assume that at some point in apple's future the development tools will be
1:25:02swift and swift ui like that will be all that is i feel like you need to get there yeah i think
1:25:08that's right certainly certainly if well we've got this legacy version you know the the xcode that
1:25:14still runs on mac os and you can use that but if you're not using that old stuff we have this new
1:25:19development environment that you can use something like that right john asks do you think tapbots
1:25:25will release an ivory-esque client for blue sky um maybe i feel like if it wins or right like it
1:25:38if may like it feels like yeah why not but there there's already i don't know did you see that
1:25:46there's a blue sky uh bridge for for mastodon uh yeah there there is a project i'm gonna have to
1:25:53find it but um there's a bridge that lets you log in in ivory it's sort of designed for ivory
1:26:02to blue sky as a as a separate account and it works i i did it this weekend it totally works
1:26:10so i guess the question is what's the opportunity for third-party clients i think i think it makes
1:26:16sense as long as it doesn't break the metaphors that that ivory has already had the advantage of
1:26:22of uh them doing it natively instead of using a bridge is that they could map things maybe better
1:26:26um when i see the people at the icon factory talking about what they're going to do
1:26:30following uh twitterific uh i this is the kind of thing i think too which is multiple formats
1:26:36multiple services in one sort of like social media app that that that can connect to open formats
1:26:42um but yes skybridge is the name of it skybridge.fly.dev and i have used that over the weekend
1:26:51and i i don't know if it'll keep working i don't know i don't know but uh it totally works
1:26:59at least this weekend it worked for me uh and i that means i have blue sky in ivory just as
1:27:06a separate account and it it's very interesting so i think i think you'll see stuff like that
1:27:10i mean that will probably just become a thing you could do anyway right like that just feels like
1:27:15part of the blue sky thing yeah in fact i would be i would actually think it would be more that
1:27:22ivory would get blue sky support than that there would be a separate client for blue sky because
1:27:27they seem close enough that maybe you should just sort of like have an app that does them instead
1:27:35of having to because the amount of overhead to build a separate app for that other social network
1:27:40uh but who knows but it certainly seems very possible because there's also like joe's mentioned
1:27:46in the live discord too that there's an instagram project right it's called project barcelona is what
1:27:52they're calling it which is also their attempt to join the text-based decentralized universe
1:27:58i feel like it's going to be i think i saw somebody tweet about this recently i had a
1:28:04post about this recently the idea of like in 20 years and why do they call it ivory
1:28:11right like why is this app called ivory yep well son there was a there was this thing called mass
1:28:20it all started with this thing called mastodon which yeah exactly uh so yeah i don't know um
1:28:26and maybe they do change the name over time to make it something else or maybe they just leave
1:28:30it because it's gotten enough cache and enough foil users that it doesn't matter but that's
1:28:36yeah i think the beauty of this whether you're the icon factory which has not released something but
1:28:40has been talking about it or whether your tap bots which has released something and is obviously
1:28:44thinking about this stuff too is if you've got a bunch of open protocols for text-based twitter-like
1:28:52things and uh they're similar enough that you could support them all in one app maybe that's
1:28:59the direction that they'll go maybe not maybe they'll be different enough that they're best
1:29:03served but i know that i i prefer having not like three different apps that i have to juggle
1:29:09and also make a wild prediction which is at some point the remnants of twitter will be owned by
1:29:16somebody who does this i i would not be surprised if at some point twitter ends up just being
1:29:22another end point for this text-based chat because i have a hard time believing no well like i said i
1:29:29think i think it's the remnants of twitter yeah when they've when they've been sold off or gone
1:29:33bankrupt or whatever um what a result that would somebody will find value of the whole thing right
1:29:39it's just like that's just i mean seems realistic but like that it's just like a wild thing to
1:29:45consider that it just ends up it ends up becoming one end point for its replacement huh i would say
1:29:56as well you mentioned icon factory at this point they seem for oppression and their idea of like
1:30:00we're just not going to jump to mastodon like we're just going to wait out a little bit and
1:30:03see what happens because we have a you know ideas that are maybe bigger than this and that's what
1:30:07kind of what's happening already right of like well it was mastodon but now blue sky's here and
1:30:12now this is here now this is here maybe what we will need eventually is some kind of app closer
1:30:18to an rss reader in a way which is just like it just pulls in a bunch of sources and can display
1:30:23those to you and colin asks would you like apple to do a one-time numbering alignment across all
1:30:30of its product lines and software so that ios 18 is an iphone 18 and paired with watchos 18
1:30:36or would you go a difference with a different scheme altogether don't forget the a18 processor
1:30:42which is another teenage number that is out there with uh with apple stuff in it it's very
1:30:49confusing i like what samsung did when they just went to the calendar year for their for their
1:30:54products and i think apple should do this i agree i agree it would be much easier if in 2023 what we
1:31:01got was ios 23 iphone 23 and the a23 processor yeah super simple that would be a lot easier it
1:31:10could even be dare i say it the m23 processor i know it's big numbers and all of that but if
1:31:17they're tied to the year or the model year if you whatever but i hate that they're all different
1:31:24that's what kills me is that they're all on basically annual cycles maybe not the m but the
1:31:28a series the ios and ipad os numbers and the iphone numbers they're all on annual cycles
1:31:35and so they're incrementing together but they're at slightly different places in terms of their
1:31:41numbers i i really would like them to line it all up and and one way to do that would just be to tie
1:31:47it to the year because you could also talk contextually too then right you wouldn't necessarily
1:31:54you could just say this year's iphone and then you're just like we know what that means which we
1:31:57already say anyway and yeah i would love that i think that would be wonderful i don't think
1:32:03it'll do it but no but it would be nice to dream if you would like to send in your ask upgrade
1:32:11questions or your feedback or your follow-up go to upgrade feedback.com and you can send them in
1:32:16there if before next week's episode you would like to read Jason's work go to sixcolors.com you can
1:32:22also hear his podcast at the incomparable.com and here on relay fm you can listen to my shows here
1:32:28on relay fm as well and check out my work cortexbrand.com you can find us on mastodon
1:32:34jason is at j snell on zeppelin.flights you can find me as at i mike on mike.social and you can
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1:32:57and support the show thank you to ladder and zockdoc for their support of this week's episode
1:33:04and most of all thank you for listening we'll be back next week with the wwdc draft until then
1:33:12say goodbye jason snow goodbye my curly