0:00:00It's the end of the month and the only episode of this show I've done other than my live show
0:00:04It was with Christian Selig and we obviously spent most of that episode talking about red it and that whole saga
0:00:11so I haven't really done a post
0:00:13WWDC show other than my live show which now at this point feels like ancient history
0:00:20I'm curious a couple weeks out Matthew. What's your rearview mirror view of WWDC this year?
0:00:28Good, you know super exciting obviously anytime a new category comes along. It's sort of just
0:00:32Drowns out any other news right if you dig deeper into the catalog of what happened there
0:00:39There's definitely a a good stack of really nice updates
0:00:44And I think people came away feeling that and I feel that way I feel like there's some good layers of interesting things there
0:00:50But vision pro right is the only thing anybody really talks about or asks about
0:00:55I think people are obviously very used to getting iOS updates and hey
0:01:00There's gonna be some new stuff on your iPhone come September
0:01:02Maybe a new iPhone come September with this new stuff on it
0:01:05But they are absolutely not of course used to Apple introducing new categories, right?
0:01:10So that's all anybody's talking about and that's still what I'm thinking about to be honest. I I
0:01:14It is and I think I want to talk
0:01:17I think we'll at least I don't know if we'll go entirely through the keynote backwards
0:01:22But we should definitely start with vision so that we can spend as much time on it as we want and obviously
0:01:26That's the biggest takeaway, but my second biggest takeaway, and I have this note
0:01:30I wrote it while I was watching the keynote with you
0:01:33It live I was like this is I wrote down
0:01:37This is a company firing on all cylinders
0:01:39And it was it and what I mean by that is that I almost feel like it's a coincidence
0:01:44That it's a year where every one of the other platforms feels like it's having a very solid
0:01:51update with
0:01:53Just a very good mix of new stuff. That's actually useful not just like hey, we it's a new year
0:02:00We need new stuff. Let's tack something else on which I think is a way by other platforms
0:02:05Are you talking about like Google like no no no I mean
0:02:07I'm talking like industry-wide if no I'm talking Apple Apple feels like they're firing on all cylinders
0:02:15Oh, could you're good you're from Mac OS I?
0:02:19Pad and even the watch like even this nice sort of visual refresh to the watch and a sort of hey
0:02:26We're at watch OS 10, but we're still sort of and and it's this gadget with only two or three buttons now
0:02:31There's the the action button for the the ultra it has the most minimal input of any device
0:02:37We've ever made and we're still to be thinking what those buttons to do
0:02:40But I think in a very good way, and I know yeah, just big picture and and
0:02:47UDC every year
0:02:49It really is
0:02:51It exemplifies their philosophy or at least on the software side the whole Federighi
0:02:57organization of
0:02:59Every year every platform gets a dado major upgrade
0:03:04for better or for worse, you know every year people there's a
0:03:08Sure listening to this podcast right everybody wants that snow leopard year where they just say no new features
0:03:15all we're gonna do is fix bugs and
0:03:18That's never gonna happen
0:03:20And in fact didn't really happen with snow leopard like snow leopard actually added a bunch of really important new stuff
0:03:26Like the big one was Grand Central dispatch which laid the future
0:03:30for
0:03:32What do you call it?
0:03:34multi-processing
0:03:34Mm-hmm multi-threading for all of their platforms going forward. It was a huge low
0:03:40I mean, it's the sort of thing where the typical user of a Mac it was like I have no idea what Grand Central dispatches
0:03:45But from the sort of thing they could add to an operating system was not no new features
0:03:50Yeah, I mean a lot of that narrative is driven by consumer touch points, right?
0:03:53It's like hey does still up and have like a bunch of new consumer touch points like panels that I click on right?
0:04:00Does it have that and it maybe it doesn't but then?
0:04:03architecturally speaking
0:04:05When you move to like a different file architecture for OS 10 or introduce Grand Central dispatch these architectural changes
0:04:12Look, this is a cascading effect that ripples through every engineering org at Apple when you do those kinds of fundamental changes
0:04:19And so while on the surface me like oh like this is a bug fix here
0:04:23Meanwhile, the the OS teams at Apple are like I was eyeballs deep the entire year
0:04:28Like I haven't seen daylight that it could be a different reality for sure
0:04:32I yeah, and I just looking back at the keynote and all the other stuff before one more thing
0:04:38It just feels like every single one of these platforms is in a pretty good pretty good shape and and it's a good year
0:04:45it doesn't feel to me like any of the
0:04:48tentpole features and again because of the
0:04:51the time squish
0:04:53Because they wanted to spend so much time on vision and vision OS in this two-hour keynote
0:05:00Everything else whatever did make it into the keynote for Mac iPhone iPad watch is what they really really care about and none of those
0:05:07features seem
0:05:09Superfluous to me to me with that. That's a canary in the coal mine
0:05:12I look for every year is when are they starting to add features?
0:05:16Well, we got to add something and I feel like that's a disaster waiting that that's when platforms start to accumulate
0:05:23Both technical debt but user interface debt, right?
0:05:28And I don't and I so I think it's also very good for the company overall to have a brand new platform like vision OS
0:05:36Where their urge to create all new?
0:05:41Metaphors all new paradigms all new
0:05:46inventive user interaction things
0:05:49There's a platform that really needs it and the platforms that are all mature
0:05:54Which is let's face it every even iPad and watch at this point should be considered mature platforms
0:06:00They can just be treated as the mature platforms that they are
0:06:04Yeah, so less I message apps and more like new paradigms for interfacing with apps in space
0:06:12Right in space, right? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. All right. Let me start here and thank our first sponsor and it is our very good friend
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0:08:54so let's start with vision and
0:08:56vision OS
0:08:58I'm still thinking I
0:09:01Know like the refresher course on our demo because you you like me got the 30-minute press demo and the experience of using it
0:09:09the sort of refresher was the debut of the SDK last week and a bunch of
0:09:15developers downloaded it and started like converting their existing projects like iOS and iPad apps and
0:09:21Looking at the screenshots that they're posting from their apps in the SDK. Yeah, that's what it looked like
0:09:30Yeah, I mean I think that's that's like gosh radical unsurprised like that's that's a good thing when you're introducing new
0:09:37Platforms is like an early which face it like this SDK is early an early SDK
0:09:44examples rolling out looking like the thing you saw in person is one of the most radically unsurprising and yet radically calming things you can
0:09:53Feel about a new platform as obviously developers some people that got the early look at this were developers
0:10:00And so they saw that and then now they're experimenting with the SDK. It wasn't all press people, right?
0:10:05They definitely do right seed some demos with developers to give them ideas about what to do or just you just basically
0:10:12Broadcast. Hey, this thing is real into the developer community without the intermediary layer of like you or I saying hey, this thing's great
0:10:20You should know more. It was really interesting and now that everybody has the SDK the examples that we're seeing come out of it
0:10:26Feel very much like what we saw which to me means that even though this is an extremely early SDK
0:10:33It's actually quite mature. Nothing like the Apple watch SDK, which was just incredibly janky at launch
0:10:40It just really does function it works
0:10:43They're taking it extremely seriously and like everybody was involved in making this SDK
0:10:48It wasn't just an SDK in a box that now has to start talking to other teams across Apple to make it fully functional
0:10:56Yeah, and I think that comparing and contrasting with the watch is really interesting. I I
0:11:03Talk about this all the time. Did they launch Apple watch a year too soon?
0:11:07Was the pressure of we need to prove to the world we can launch a new thing after Steve Jobs has gone
0:11:14So high that it kind of forced their hand to do it a year early
0:11:19I think it's questionable and every time I mention it I kind of lean towards yes that they should have waited one more year
0:11:25Just both the hardware and software wise and every time I mentioned it. There's a couple of people out there. I swear to God
0:11:31If you're listening to this episode people who still have their original Apple watch say they still using it
0:11:39And they still like it and I'm like, that's crazy. Yeah. Congrats to you. You're getting your money's worth out of that watch
0:11:45Hold and at this point definitely hold on till series 9 or whatever's coming out. So don't yeah build upgrade now
0:11:51Yeah, but there's people or other people who said no
0:11:54I bought my original and used and and maybe not still using it now, but used it for years and really liked it
0:12:00So it's a close call wasn't it wasn't disastrous
0:12:02But the biggest problem as we're talking about software was that the watch kit they made available to third-party developers
0:12:09was entirely different from the SD from the API's that Apple itself was using to make the first-party apps on the watch and
0:12:17It was sort of like in layperson's terms
0:12:21Watch kit let like software running on the iPhone sort of paint a watch screen
0:12:28And then sort of tell the watch here show this
0:12:31Yeah, yeah, and it was carplay for your wrist, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's sort of dreamed the interface. Yeah, but with at least carplay
0:12:38Actually shows what it's supposed to show like it was it was it was a bad idea
0:12:44Even if it had worked or a very limited idea, even if it had worked perfectly and every watch developer
0:12:50I know I'll watch OS developer pulled out their hair because that it it would just indeterminately
0:12:57Communicate between the phone and watch or not. And if the whole watch had worked like that, there's nobody would have bought it
0:13:03It would have been a disaster and then rewall then why didn't Apple give developers access to the same API's they use because it was so
0:13:11battery
0:13:13Life
0:13:15limited as it was that they didn't they really needed to to
0:13:20They only trusted themselves to write the software that was actually running on
0:13:26the Apple watch and just it's
0:13:30If anything they should have done differently is maybe launched the first one when they did this
0:13:362014 announcement 2015 ship but do what they did with the iPhone and wait a year to have any
0:13:41SDK at all. I think that with the vision it's very different
0:13:46It is very I even checked and asked obviously there are private API's that only Apple can use on all platforms even the Mac
0:13:54But the apps that they're encouraging developers to make today for vision OS are using the same
0:14:00SDK as the apps that Apple is shipping with the platform
0:14:04Which is how things work with the iPad and the iPhone - and it really shows
0:14:09We are there going to be killer third-party apps right on day one. Maybe I it doesn't need it. I don't know
0:14:16I mean, I still feel like we're not sure what people are going to want to do with this
0:14:20But I do think that where they're showing the SDK to be at is is impressive
0:14:26Yeah, I mean, I think that the overall like the price will which one I'm sure we'll talk about. Hmm
0:14:31Well, I think the price definitely telegraphs that you're going to see applications that are aimed at the enterprise
0:14:38and I think that a lot of the applications that you and I are seeing
0:14:41demonstrations of or
0:14:44early screenshots of in the SDK that people are building are probably from the community of developers that generally write
0:14:50Consumer level apps right like we're seeing a lot of consumer touch points like hey James Thompson's writing PC
0:14:56Cal right for for vision. What does that look like? What does it calculator feel like in 3d?
0:15:00What does dice rolling feel like in 3d, you know and like that that's great
0:15:03and that's lovely to see them all experiment with this stuff, but I think that the price and the
0:15:08analyst expected ship rates of this thing are all pointing to the fact that Apple is aiming this at the enterprise and at education at a
0:15:18cadre of people that we are really not seeing those demonstrations from publicly like I've talked I've started talked to some people privately where
0:15:26I'm like, hey
0:15:27Do you see a need for this in?
0:15:29Electrical engineering design or in 3d design started talking to like Disney a little bit about it
0:15:34Like, you know, I'm asking some imagineers
0:15:36Are you excited for a visualization because they use this a ton in sight line planning
0:15:41They use 3d VR and in sight line planning and in sight planning because it allows them to exist on a site as a guest
0:15:47Before grounds even broken and there's definitely going to be some use cases there that we're gonna see
0:15:52That will sort of be defining use cases, but they won't be broadly defining use cases
0:15:58I think in the first tranche of these things, it'll be
0:16:00Specifically defining use cases. Hey this works for us
0:16:04It's actually really vital and interesting and we can integrate into our workflow and then we'll have to kind of wait a couple of iterations
0:16:11Before we start to see a broadly applicable consumer application. Yeah
0:16:16Well, we might as well parlay right into price and it is funny
0:16:19I think it was made my tweet or whatever
0:16:21We call the things on Mastodon if right after the keynote if you'd asked I wish I'd done a poll
0:16:26Before the keynote is the price gonna come in over it over or under the three thousand rumor
0:16:32I would have bet the under if I would have and it was the over but in
0:16:37Everything we've learned since to me make sense and I think I think it all comes down to the fact
0:16:43I think it starts with the fact that
0:16:45the displays
0:16:49two displays per vision Pro one in each eye a
0:16:53They're there from what you and I saw they're clearly
0:16:56Incredibly advanced they're they're stunning and by all accounts. I've seen they're so severely
0:17:04Constrained supply wise that everything else falls out of that. Mmm
0:17:11I'm not shocked at that at all. Yeah, right. Nobody's stating
0:17:14Stating this authoritative lease. I think they're made by Sony and Sony's involved in some way
0:17:20Nobody like so be a Sony is saying we can only make 1 million of these a year. Sorry
0:17:25It's all private and secret
0:17:27but through the supply that that seems to be that's one of the numbers bandied about that that they can only
0:17:33Make the best estimate right now is that in the year 2024?
0:17:37They're only going to be able to make a million of these displays which would mean at best half a million units
0:17:44Because you need to per unit. So let's double that. Let's say it's two million displays and then
0:17:50one million units, but that's the doesn't matter whether it costs a thousand dollars or
0:17:56$3,500 or
0:17:58$13,000 if they if they can only make a
0:18:03Million of them then there's only going to be half a million headsets. That's it
0:18:08And if they can only make two million displays
0:18:10There's only a million of them and I think what we're seeing is what we saw literally when we when we tried it
0:18:17Is that this is Apple saying for our concept for quote-unquote spatial computing?
0:18:23This is the minimum
0:18:25viable
0:18:28Experience level in terms of resolution
0:18:31Color like HDR the certainly the latency right which is absolutely
0:18:37incredible the amount of camera coverage this factor that factor the other factor this is the minimum viable experience going forward and
0:18:47therefore
0:18:49To make it in the year 2024
0:18:51requires these very expensive displays
0:18:54That we can only get so many of and so here's the price right?
0:18:59And I think that's that's compounded when you think about yield rates right that the rationale for this
0:19:06limitation and how many screens they can
0:19:09produce is
0:19:11Limited of course by production and how many people on earth can actually make a display this high resolution
0:19:15Which is insanely high resolution at 90 90 Hertz refresh rate etc
0:19:20It's yield is a huge problem for VR headset screens because dead pixels are an enormous
0:19:27bother they are enormously
0:19:30enormously bothersome in VR headsets when you're when they're just
0:19:34Millimeters from your eye right or centimeters in some cases and I think that is a it's a huge problem
0:19:41A dead pixel on a VR screen is almost an instant return on a headset
0:19:44I'm sure meta has a ton of quests going back for dead pixels for anybody that recognizes it or sees a floaty and
0:19:53Asked hey, what is this and then finally gets to the bottom of it if they're not technical
0:19:57They may not know what that is or what the problem is and I'm sure those headsets go back and it's a huge problem
0:20:02So yield is gonna be a big big big problem given how many pixels sir how many picture elements there are in each of these panels?
0:20:09I'm assuming that they are making enormous panels of this stuff and then cutting out just the bits that work
0:20:16Right, and and that's probably not 100% or anywhere near it. So that's probably a huge issue. I
0:20:23Wonder so my guess is that for most of next year this device is going to be backordered, right?
0:20:29So the knee-jerk reaction Apple announces this at the keynote three weeks ago and the price here's the price
0:20:343500 it was sort of a gut punch in the crowd, right?
0:20:38It was sort of like who it wasn't like nobody booed
0:20:41but if they had said fifteen hundred dollars, which we now know is unrealistic, but if they had people would have
0:20:48Cheered right the iPad famously rumors said it was gonna start at a thousand
0:20:53Steve Jobs says and starts at 499 and I remember I was in the room at the Yerba Buena theater
0:21:00It was perhaps the biggest applause line of the whole thing. It was the crowd just went nuts and again
0:21:07It's the media people didn't because they were all typing but the Apple people who were in the audience went nuts because they didn't know the
0:21:13Price, right? That's how you keep secrets. People don't know
0:21:15I the knee-jerk reappl announces it 3500 and the knee-jerk reaction in the commentariat is apples out of their mind
0:21:23This is way too expensive blah blah blah and in the meantime, I'm pretty sure at at this price
0:21:28It's gonna be sold out six to eight weeks delivery time all year long
0:21:33They're gonna be selling them as fast as they can make them. I think they probably could
0:21:38Sell it for five thousand dollars and still be sold out, right?
0:21:42And yeah, I think one of the things that people don't
0:21:46One of the things people don't realize about Apple with pricing and if you it's not complicated
0:21:51All you have to do is look at their history is
0:21:53They see the price of a product as part of the brand as much of the brand as the name
0:21:59This is most famously exemplified by the Mac Pro
0:22:04right where
0:22:06Especially the the trash can Mac Pro which stayed for years after it was technically relevant and they stopped updating it
0:22:14They called me and you and freed and whoever else into the patch Kowski and Lance
0:22:20We were the five people in the roundtable
0:22:23But they never lowered the price right even even after they made the announcement
0:22:29They're like, you know, if you want to buy one, it's still there. I
0:22:31Really? I really did think that after that they were like, oh well in
0:22:36In between they said they more or less told us they were gonna do an iMac Pro without a quite saying they're like
0:22:43We have it a vision for an iMac for pros and we were like is it gonna be called the iMac Pro and they're like
0:22:48Well, let's just say we have a vision for an iMac for pros
0:22:52It's far more deny that the pro version of the iMac will be called iMac Pro
0:22:56I really thought that maybe then they would lower the price on the Mac Pro
0:23:00But they didn't because that price is the part of the brand of Mac Pro and they wanted that price to still be there
0:23:08When the new Mac Pro came out. Mm-hmm. I mean famously the Apple discount saying right?
0:23:16Almost everybody famously knows this right but like literally there's a list of retailers in the
0:23:22Whatever universe like retailer universe was calling. Let's call it premium label, right? I don't want to use
0:23:29Luxury because I don't think Apple positions themselves as a luxury brand even though their pricing very much sometimes says otherwise
0:23:34But you have a you have Apple
0:23:38Chanel
0:23:40Hermes
0:23:41Louboutin
0:23:42Peloton, I guess
0:23:44Peloton has maybe fallen out of favor Canada goose like you have you have like certain brands that are like this is the price
0:23:50We don't do sales. We don't do discounts. Like if you find an Hermes less than retail you're like is this fufu?
0:23:58This is yeah, like this is real because it almost immediately right and like if you see an Apple discount over like
0:24:04$100 for school back to school. Here's your hundred dollars if you find it a discount deeper than that
0:24:10You're like what's wrong with this?
0:24:11Yeah, right and like I think that's that's something that people have to acknowledge when it comes to the pricing
0:24:16They view the price as the price and if they were to have discounted the trash can Pro after they said hey
0:24:23We're making new stuff. They would be
0:24:25Inherently saying this thing isn't worth the price
0:24:28We were we originally charged for it when they still believed it was worth that price
0:24:32And they and they want that price to still be sitting there for when the new thing comes out
0:24:37Right, and so this first generation one
0:24:40I really do think they could sell it for double the price I and I says if I'm right about how constrained that the screens
0:24:46Are they could easily double the price to seven thousand dollars and still sell every one they they can make?
0:24:51but they I don't think they want to do that because they want to be able to say that when the
0:24:56vision pro 2 comes out a
0:24:59year later or however later
0:25:02That it'll start at thirty five hundred dollars or maybe maybe then it'll come to overtime. It will come down to three thousand or
0:25:09Something something that's more amenable to consumer pricing
0:25:14But they're they're not going to sell the first one for seven thousand and then say the second one
0:25:18Okay, now it can be thirty five hundred dollars because we can make more of them because then it looks like they've discounted it
0:25:24So they're actually I'm convinced they are leaving
0:25:27Money on the table with the first generation one in terms of if they were only pricing
0:25:33based on supply demand if you just called an economist in and said what should you charge for this an
0:25:39economist might come out given
0:25:42full access to
0:25:45Apple's estimates for how many of these screens they're gonna be able to obtain an economist might say this should be fifteen thousand dollars
0:25:52Mm-hmm, and I know that people think that's crazy
0:25:56But that's that's how supply and demand works when you can't get it. It will become at some point
0:26:01Is it two years from now three years? I don't know at some point
0:26:05screens of this quality will be they'll be able to make them about
0:26:10As fast as they want to as an iPhone panel or whatever right exactly so they can make as many iPhones as they're seemingly is
0:26:18Demand for that'll happen with this product line
0:26:23But it's it's obviously going to take years
0:26:25The other thing I could just say on the price is I thought this was so obvious
0:26:30I didn't need to say it
0:26:31But I've heard it from enough readers that I guess we do need to talk about it
0:26:35The fact that they're calling it the vision Pro and not just Apple vision
0:26:39mm-hmm clearly is
0:26:41Telling us in the future there will be other products in the vision lineup that are not Pro and
0:26:48Therefore less expensive. I let's just say the vision air. I don't sure yeah. Yeah, I think this yeah
0:26:55It's funny that we have to say it out loud
0:26:56But I think some people are just that maybe but like just because they're calling it the Pro doesn't mean that
0:27:01Like they're calling everything in this lineup Pro now right now
0:27:05No that means that they're creating a pricing umbrella, and then they can fill in under the umbrella with devices
0:27:12That I feel are probably the here's here's what I think they've established with the Apple vision Pro the baseline
0:27:19several baselines for what they considered to be
0:27:23minimum
0:27:25MBE
0:27:27minimum viable experience yeah, that's a great term like you have to have
0:27:32Certain things for this to be this kind of class of device
0:27:36If you want to call it spatial computing fine, that's apples buzzword, but we'll all adopt it eventually
0:27:43So they might as well start, but like if you want to say what's the baseline for an MBE for spatial computing?
0:27:49This is what it is now the baseline for other parts of the experience like hey should the battery be external
0:27:57No, should it only last two hours no right like there are certain things that can be and should be and will be improved and most
0:28:04Likely will be improved first in the pro lineup
0:28:07But as far as what's an MBE you need to have displays that are this resolution in order to render text properly
0:28:15You need to have this
0:28:1710 millisecond or sub 10 millisecond round-trip
0:28:2090 or 96 Hertz refresh rate depending on resolution
0:28:25You need to have the lack of isolation that the pass-through camera provides at
0:28:30the exact FOV of your eyes like at Apple has established these things as the MBE and
0:28:36now they will fill in the pricing umbrella underneath with devices that offer a an
0:28:42Experience that at least meets this MBE
0:28:45They are not gonna dip below this line in terms of those key things. They've put a pin in the map
0:28:53Where they need to go with this kind of thing and then everything else will be lateral from there or up. Yep
0:28:59Yeah, so like let's say in
0:29:022025 they come out with the vision pro 2 and alongside it a vision pro air
0:29:10that a lower let's say $2,000 or whatever the
0:29:14Price differential would be that's probably about right, but that min that that vision pro air
0:29:19I would expect would match this first generation vision pro in
0:29:24Every one of those specs that pertains to the minimum viewable experience
0:29:30It's gonna have it's not gonna drop to 60 frames per second
0:29:33It's not gonna have visible pixels because the screens aren't as high resolution. It's certainly not gonna lower the latency
0:29:40Right, right. I'd say hey, it's this 2000. It's only $2,000 but you get sick. Yeah, like they're not gonna do that, right?
0:29:48It's like oh, it's only $2,000, but you can't read text. You can only look at pictures. It's like no, that's it
0:29:53That's not what they've established now. I don't know what else it would take to get there
0:29:57But those are the it's like you said it's like that's the stake in the ground. This is the minimum viable
0:30:03Experience. I love that term, but that's exactly what they've and they tried to I think they tried their best
0:30:08And if you listen to what they said in the keynote and what they've what they're putting out on the website
0:30:14It seems to be they're trying to cram it through everybody's heads. That's that's what they're saying and pricing thing is interesting because I think
0:30:21Everything you've said is exactly unlike Pete. Some people don't really didn't really parse the pro thing
0:30:27They don't understand like look Apple Apple's pro lineup has always been
0:30:32Audience limited to some degree like Apple has never introduced a pro device and said this is for everyone
0:30:38They said anybody can enjoy it like anybody could buy one
0:30:41We've jokingly you and I have heard Phil Schiller say everybody should buy whatever. Yeah, that's that's very on brand
0:30:48It's always a joke. It's always
0:30:51Everybody should know one of everything however
0:30:55in the grand scheme of things they know like these are inherently devices that are for a
0:31:01Smaller segment of people that really really need them
0:31:05like if you introduce a Mac Pro MacBook Pro with an intense amount of
0:31:11video
0:31:12processing pipeline capability that's not for like I just need a MacBook for my
0:31:18Schoolwork right like that's not for that person
0:31:21It's inherently limited the same thing for this
0:31:23The pro thing is very straightforward
0:31:24and the fact of the matter is as much jokey jokes as they were about the price really on what I like to do is
0:31:30Like a couple of weeks after any Apple announcement
0:31:34I'll like troll the hashtags on tick tock or Instagram or social or Twitter
0:31:40Whatever about their new announcement like if it's in a new version of iOS or new iPhone and like this is non-scientific
0:31:47But it's just something I like to do
0:31:49I'll look through it and a look through the reddit dank memes
0:31:52Subreddit for Apple stuff and I just like to see what the memes are like. What is the what is the like the social consensus?
0:31:59Around these types of things and I know that there are like firms that will do all this
0:32:03I'm sure Apple does an enormous amount of this or pays somebody to do it, but I don't get access to that data
0:32:09So I just do my little looky-loo and like the fact of the matter is all the memes that I see about vision pro are
0:32:14Now like the pricing is involved because like how can you not like say it's a $3500 weird headset thing. That's normal
0:32:23That's natural. It's completely expected
0:32:25I'm sure Apple expected it but the memes are like I paid $3500 so that I could experience like
0:32:31Prints live at the Super Bowl and it's like a picture
0:32:34It's like a video cut out of a wrap around video experience that they showed in the keynote
0:32:39with like Prince playing live at the Super Bowl 3 coming down and like that it's it's that layer of like
0:32:46Acceptance of the price and internalization and then it's sort of a weird social rationalization of what it would take
0:32:54Even if it's a joke it
0:32:56Those kinds of things are actually real like they do sink into your skin and they get into you
0:33:02Like there's a reason influencers are called influencers, right? Like we are as a human
0:33:06looking for social proofs of our
0:33:09Feelings about things and it's a rare person that can operate free of any sort of
0:33:15Externality in in their choices who can say like I like steak
0:33:19I don't ever I've never heard anybody say anything about steak that that tells me whether to like my steak rare or not
0:33:24Somebody somewhere was influenced by somebody to say like hey
0:33:28You should probably not overcook your steak and it'll taste a lot better like there's there's just the normal social signals that we all get
0:33:35And so I like to look at those and parse those in terms of their announcements and to me
0:33:38The way that the vision Pro is being like sort of embedded in the consciousness is this thing is expensive
0:33:45But it could be worth it for the right
0:33:47Experiences for the right the right thing that touches me and that moves me or whatever now
0:33:53That's the consumer view right not the enterprise view which me and by and large the initial wave of this is gonna be largely
0:34:00Enterprise driven but I think it's an interesting thing
0:34:03And I think it means that people have internalized the price and that it was actually not that high at all
0:34:08Besides the initial well, whatever over on the price guesses
0:34:12But I actually think it was probably priced correctly for the market and most people are probably not that worried about it
0:34:19In other words, it wasn't a big debacle of a price even though it was higher than we expected
0:34:24Yeah, I kind of feel like if I had to guess what the two big use cases in
0:34:30the first year or two or at least for this first generation product I
0:34:36kind of feel it's going to be high-end personal entertainment and
0:34:41Enterprise uses like
0:34:45That that one example they shouldn't a keynote where they had I don't know if it was actually f1
0:34:49But whatever the racecar was, but it was a life-size model of a real racecar
0:34:55That it just looked real
0:34:59I mean somebody told me I forget if you were with me at the time
0:35:02But somebody told me that when Eddie Q who obviously knows his shit about f1 took that part of the demo
0:35:07He would just couldn't believe it wasn't real
0:35:10He was like taking the headset off and lift using his natural vision
0:35:13Like couldn't believe there wasn't a race car in front of him
0:35:15It was and the things I saw it's that it and like you said about like Disney Imagineers testing sight lines or anything
0:35:23right, but like to be able to
0:35:25Put it life-size
0:35:28Life-colored, I mean we've seen
0:35:30If you're designing devices or hardware a lot of designers, I'm sure Disney designers do it
0:35:37I know Apple designers do it is they just have like clay right car design famously
0:35:42Who hasn't anybody who's even vaguely interested in cars has seen like just a clay model of a life-size car that they score
0:35:49Right, so they could just sort of see everything and you need to see it and and you need to see it at scale
0:35:55But something making a model out of clay is obviously time-consuming
0:36:00It's hard to make tweaks. You don't get the color so I can think of so many
0:36:07Design type things architecture. I mean because that's the other thing it's not just the putting an object in front of you
0:36:14Like a life-size model of a car
0:36:16you can model the lobby of a hotel around you and
0:36:21It's not a picture. It is you're there and it's not just 3d it is to scale
0:36:29It yeah
0:36:31I mean designers designers have used I think that
0:36:34Like the brain fills in gap the brain abhors a vacuum, right?
0:36:38And so it will fill in the details like you talk about a car designer working in clay, obviously
0:36:42They don't have paint details. They don't have right interior architecture of the car
0:36:46like they're they're working on faith right and and
0:36:49Experience and skill and like filling in those gaps and all of that stuff. There's like a concept called edge induction. That is about like
0:36:56it was very it was used in like a lot of ancient pottery where they basically
0:37:02It allows us to like a distinguish objects in like really dim light like our brain fills in a lot of detail
0:37:09Based on just shading right and like that that idea that we were we are able to sort of infer
0:37:16details and infer further
0:37:19Developments down the line from a design
0:37:22That's just a sketch or just an outline or just a rough mock or or an early poly model of something
0:37:29That's that's the way the human brain works and it's great
0:37:31but the fact is is like accelerating that and enhancing that by providing somebody with like
0:37:36lifelike fidelity
0:37:39Should enable them to layer on
0:37:41even more progress even quicker right and get there faster and all of that and that accelerant is
0:37:48Exactly why people are so like a hypey typey about AI right? It's like it's not the AI is essentially plagiarism currently
0:37:55It's synthesis of pre-existing ideas
0:37:58But it is an accelerant right in any end of the day a broadly applicable accelerant. It's like the discovery of gasoline
0:38:06It's like we could use this to blow shit up. We can use it to make stuff go faster
0:38:09We can we can use it at all. We can use it as a solvent right like petroleum
0:38:13Like you can do a lot of things with it, right?
0:38:16It's an accelerant for a lot of different
0:38:18arenas and I think that's why
0:38:20enterprise people are sort of kind of jazzed on this thing because it's an accelerant to the design process or or
0:38:27MVP process or manufacturing process or whatever
0:38:30I think architectural firms are gonna buy these as fast as they can get them
0:38:34I think industrial designers buy them as fast as they can get them
0:38:38And but I also I don't want to overlook that personal entertainment angle
0:38:42And I really I think for like business travel. It's it really is gonna be super compelling
0:38:48I it's it it really is I think going to take
0:38:53watching a movie on a plane from
0:38:57Well, I I've done this I think most I'm sorry
0:39:00I bet most people listening to the show do where you don't watch the movies
0:39:04That you most are interested in on a plane you save up like garbage movies or TV shows like that
0:39:10Because it's not gonna be great
0:39:12It might turn watching a movie onto a plane into one of the best movie experiences
0:39:16You can get you put some air pods
0:39:19Air pod pros in to cancel out the noise and you get good audio and you're gonna get
0:39:25This simulated 60-foot screen in front of you with full brightness
0:39:29right, it could be incredible and
0:39:32to combine that with the work angle to justify like having your work buy it for you for business travel so that you can
0:39:40sit down at your desk and
0:39:42get a
0:39:44simulated 30-inch Mac display in front of you to do work or to do your work in vision OS which I think is
0:39:51From what I've seen so far. I think
0:39:54especially for people who who can do their work like
0:39:58Their email and the messaging and the reading they need to do if you're doing that on an iPad
0:40:04Then you definitely gonna be able to do it in vision OS except better because everything's gonna be bigger and every I mean
0:40:11It's it's real. It's not just personal preference. There are it's so I've never seen a human factors
0:40:17Exercise that doesn't show that having more bigger visual real estate in front of you doesn't make people more productive
0:40:25Mm-hmm. Yeah and being able to take it take that desk with you and take that work with you
0:40:29It seems like almost frivolity until you
0:40:33until you
0:40:34Have worked at corporation scale or large scale businesses or enterprise at the enterprise level
0:40:40So I think a lot of consumers who are looking at this if your income level makes it
0:40:46So this is an extreme luxury purchase for you. There's zero shame in that be honest with yourself
0:40:50Don't buy it right but you you also can be it could affect your perception of the price and a perception of the investment
0:40:58That people are gonna make in it, but if like the difference between you working
0:41:02larger with multiple screens open or whatever is a difference in hundreds of thousands of dollars in productivity or work or
0:41:10getting a deal written up or sign while you're on a
0:41:13commuter plane without
0:41:18Formizing privacy or security like as an example because people looking over your shoulder looking at your like P&L or whatever
0:41:25I've been there
0:41:26I've been like shit who's looking at me and I can't I gotta angle it this way and like like this portion of it
0:41:31I can't let anybody see out of respect for the privacy of the company etc. But like if you're able to do that viably
0:41:38It's it's essentially a de minimis investment, right?
0:41:41Yeah, and I think that's that individual use case of just plain work that Apple spent so much time on in the keynote
0:41:49Should not be overlooked as a compelling case
0:41:52I think watching movies is gonna be freaking cool
0:41:54But I think that getting your company to pay for it for you because you're able to say hey I can work with
0:42:00sensitive data in a public or semi-public environment
0:42:05Continuously and I fly back and forth to China a lot for manufacturing or I fly coast to coast a lot in the US
0:42:12and I can handle like private customer data or or
0:42:16Company data and work with that and be productive. I mean, that's a write-off, you know, am I imagining this?
0:42:23I think I've heard about this
0:42:24I've never had a need for it
0:42:25But I think that they you can buy like polarizing screens for laptops to like make them more private
0:42:31You absolutely can't yeah, they require my wife has one on her phone. I don't know why I was laughing about it
0:42:36But you know, frankly it probably does protect her against shoulder surfing and stuff a little bit more
0:42:41But you if you're off access axis, excuse right a bit to the screen it pretty much goes black
0:42:47And so these things do exist and but the fact it doesn't stop any from buddy behind you
0:42:52They just don't look right at it because they're at the same axis as you but yeah
0:42:55They do and that I would estimate that like the vast majority of business people
0:43:00I see working with laptops have something like that
0:43:02Maybe even company mandated in like if they're in business class or if they're in first class or even if they're in premium economy
0:43:08Working on the laptop, right exactly. Yeah, whatever that is
0:43:12I think you end up seeing that a lot these days and let's the fact is that data is power and
0:43:16Data is actually a really important thing to companies and data privacy is huge. So I would underestimate that angle
0:43:24It's an interesting one. I didn't think about it, but that's true. Yeah, right
0:43:27I mean there's I was gonna I was thinking like HIPAA stuff for everybody in the medical community
0:43:32That's probably what your life is is dealing with. But yeah, I mean just just financial data, right?
0:43:38I mean and think about Apple employees right like how he can't like look at pictures of the products you're working on
0:43:44Why are out in public? Yeah, if you see an Apple employee with a headset on or on play
0:43:47And he's probably looking at the next iPhone. You should you should ask him about it
0:43:50Yeah, so it is super duper private
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0:46:21Let me let me toss this out as a very high level
0:46:24Hmm. How is the public?
0:46:27adapting to this announcement right Apple June of
0:46:322023 shows the world vision OS and vision Pro at
0:46:37WWDC they say it'll ship in early 2024
0:46:41I asked my live show how early is early in Mike Rockwell said early so I don't think we're looking
0:46:48I don't think we're looking at like the end of May right before WWDC next year. Technically early is what June 15. So yeah
0:46:55Maybe Q2 I wouldn't be surprised if it's if we're wearing winter coats on the East Coast when it comes out, but
0:47:06In 2007 Steve Jobs announced the original iPhone at Macworld Expo in early January
0:47:13And it didn't ship until the very end of June. So about six months and so there's a similar period of time
0:47:20for us to speculate based on what they've shown and
0:47:23Before anybody can buy it or review it or anything like that
0:47:27And to me the one thing that really it's very obvious, but I think it's very interesting looking at people's reaction is
0:47:36With the iPhone
0:47:38the hardware itself
0:47:40Screamed this is different
0:47:43there's iconic pictures of Steve Jobs holding the iPhone that he I guess he had in his pocket the whole time while he was talking to
0:47:49us and
0:47:50The screen I don't even think the screen was on he just holding up the device and the device itself
0:47:55Was incredibly unlike every other phone anybody had seen right and then when he announced when they announced the iPhone
0:48:03Most people thought of their cell phone as something they paid
0:48:07$30 for when they renewed their cell contract with singular or Verizon or whoever they were with and it may not have been a
0:48:15$30 device, but it was subsidized. Maybe it was $100 from Nokia, but it was just something
0:48:20that it was either a flip form factor or a candy bar from form factor with a
0:48:25traditional numeric keypad and it was something you used primarily to make phone calls or
0:48:31The existing smartphone market at the time was like a blackberry style device
0:48:36This just looking at the iPhone hardware looked like neither of those things it was right and it didn't look like an iPod
0:48:44It didn't look like anything else just without even turning the screen on looked very different
0:48:49whereas vision Pro
0:48:51Just looking at it putting aside the eyesight feature just because I don't think that's I don't think the eyesight feature is
0:49:01Major I don't it's certainly not the reason to get a vision Pro as opposed to a quest 3 or anybody else's product
0:49:08It fundamentally looks like a VR headset. It's and if anything is bigger
0:49:15It's it's a look because it's more it's not the smallest by far
0:49:19Mm-hmm, and I kind of feel like so therefore I think a lot of the initial
0:49:25Commentary about it is just sort of like what just treating it like all the other headsets on the market because at a fundamental level
0:49:32It just looks like the other headsets, right? Right. It's not like it has gills or something, right?
0:49:37And they're like, oh my god gills. It's like oh, we've seen this thing before right? We've seen this this category before
0:49:44I mean
0:49:44I think that there's some probably some parallels to be drawn with the watch
0:49:47Where there were other smart watches which look very similar. They kind of had a screen of some sort and
0:49:53They've strapped on your wrist. I mean, what's one more is there to a right, right? Yeah, it's a rounder rounder rectangle maker
0:49:59Mm-hmm exactly. And I think there is some parallels there
0:50:03I I do feel that like yeah, the eyeballs coming through are probably the the most like
0:50:09impossible to translate to
0:50:13Anything that anybody would care about?
0:50:15Because you have to see them in person and it very plainly
0:50:21Honestly you and I didn't see them in person because they work functioning and I don't think they are functioning correctly
0:50:27No, I mean, I think they work like they work in a lab, but they weren't comfortable showing people live
0:50:32So that's not done yet, right, right
0:50:35However, I did talk to some folks about this and I think you okay
0:50:39We were you talked about on your show at all
0:50:41Maybe a little bit in your interview, but it is quite a bit more complex than a screen. Oh, yeah, that was just a screen
0:50:48Oh, yeah, that was it. What's it called? Recticular renticular? Yeah, lenticular lenticular lenticular lenticular display
0:50:55Yeah, and lenticular for people that don't know is like basically just to be simple to simplify it
0:51:00it's just grooves in a you know, like a an
0:51:03intermediary medium like glass or plastic
0:51:06that allows you to sort of look at things from a different angles like those little cards that you get for
0:51:11Promotion or as a toy like a pog or something that has a little image on it and you tilt it and you see one
0:51:16Image from one angle another image from another angle, right? And if you strip off the intermediary layer
0:51:23It's printed in slivers
0:51:25so you get it in inter locking or
0:51:27interspersed slivers of each image
0:51:30so that they're interlaced and then when you put the lens on top you can see one image this way and another image the other
0:51:35way and that provides you with like a
0:51:38view of different things well the screen has a
0:51:43very complex
0:51:45Recticular array that allows you to look at them from different angles
0:51:50Look at the headset from different angles and the eyes
0:51:52Appear as if they are looking at you right there even when they look at you if looking at you
0:51:57Well or not not that they're always looking at you
0:52:01It's that they look like they're at the right depth behind the glass and if you are looking at you
0:52:05They will look like they're looking at right
0:52:08So if right if there's if you're wearing the vision Pro headset and there's three people in front of you one dead center
0:52:15One to your left and one to your right
0:52:17If you look at the person on your left the person on the right will be able to see that you're looking at the person
0:52:23On your left it won't look like you're looking at them
0:52:26But your eyes will look like they are where they're supposed to be on your skull not
0:52:31Painted on the surface of loading out in front. Yeah, and like googly eyes on the end of the glass, right? And
0:52:38That that was the context of my question to Rockwell on my show was that I can I could understand how that
0:52:44How they did it so that if you're standing right in front of me how it could look natural
0:52:49But it didn't make sense to me how it would look right from the side and that's where this lenticular
0:52:54design plays in that's the one thing from the outside that
0:52:58Clearly distinguishes the vision Pro but it's such an it and it must add some degree of expense to the product
0:53:06Obviously, it's an entire. Yeah, and it makes no difference
0:53:09Like if you're not looking at it in person not difference
0:53:11But it's impossible to translate if you're not looking at it in person, right? And it is really interesting that it's really
0:53:18Not for you the user. Mm-hmm, right? So like you
0:53:23Matthew right right by just open up your wallet and you spend
0:53:28$3,500 to buy this and you're using it you're sitting there on an airplane
0:53:32Doing private tech crunch financial work right as we've been doing a spreadsheet
0:53:38That you don't see the eyes on your goggle. That's the person walking back to the restroom that says
0:53:44Oh, there's a guy with the vision Pro and see that you and you look up and you're like, yeah
0:53:48What are you looking at you? I can see you fool. Yeah
0:53:52Yeah, that is really affordance is interesting because like the importance for you is the pass-through right like yeah, so I get them people roach
0:54:00Yeah, I guess so. I guess it is for you in a sense, right?
0:54:03I guess that's that's and I was very skeptical that they were gonna do these I things and one of the
0:54:08reasons for my skepticism
0:54:09Was they obviously most of the over thousands of people who've been working on this at Apple
0:54:15Had no idea about this feature before it was announced in the keynote
0:54:19I mean people who were working on the software side of things had no idea that this feature existed the the
0:54:24The prototypes that they were using didn't have this feature
0:54:29So the hats off whoever whoever spilled the beans on that to Gurman and the guy at the information had it to Wayne mom
0:54:37Whoever their sources were for that was in a very limited circle
0:54:40There were very few people who knew about this feature before that was announced at the keynote. It doesn't work
0:54:45Or it doesn't work in the headsets that people are now walking around
0:54:50Apple Park wearing this like if you work at Apple Park
0:54:54You can see there are apparently since the keynote people who were walking around wearing it
0:54:59The the eyesight feature still doesn't work or it isn't turned on on those units
0:55:05I guess it is it did one of the reasons I was skeptical it obviously adds to the cost because you've got now
0:55:10You've got a screen on the front where?
0:55:12Because if you delete that screen, that's just less money. You have to spend making the thing it adds to the battery
0:55:19Depletion right and it's already as we know as rumors suggested
0:55:24It's it's two hours of battery life max or at least that's as per currently promised
0:55:30and some amount of that power is now going to
0:55:34the screen on the front that you don't see and it's also going to the well I get I
0:55:40Guess the cameras for the eye tracking would be working anyway, but it's yeah
0:55:45It's taking some amount of power away, but it isn't just for the outside world
0:55:49It is it I guess it would as I imagine myself sitting in the aisle seat on an airplane
0:55:56Having somebody like look at me like hey is does this guy have that fancy new Apple headset it?
0:56:02I would like to be able to make eye contact and be like yeah, leave me alone
0:56:06Yeah, I mean, I think like I think that it's a fits in with the philosophy of the whole thing
0:56:11Which is the lack of isolation right and if you want to eliminate or reduce isolation in VR
0:56:18You sort of have to have a two-way pathway in part the other half of that pathway is people to you
0:56:23Right you two people is great being able to see your surroundings and not be surprised by somebody walking up on you
0:56:29Or being able to like turn and acknowledge somebody or whatever. That's all fine and dandy but like humans require two-way communication
0:56:35So if you're to turn and look at them
0:56:38You're not getting the full connection with them
0:56:41If your screen is just the silvery glass black thing this bug-eyed thing
0:56:45You're you're not getting that that spark that happens with D2 humans looking each other in the eye
0:56:50And so it is I think a service to both. I don't think it's one way at all
0:56:55I think it is about two-way communication. It is about reducing isolation and eliminating the awkwardness of having this thing
0:57:01And I'll have to see whether that plays out in reality, but I think that's definitely the the aim of it
0:57:06Yeah, I don't want to over index on the use case of using it in an airplane
0:57:12But it's not it just is so obvious, right?
0:57:16but you know that it's a place where you if you own one you would I certainly would use it and
0:57:22The the way they've done the is it called breakthrough?
0:57:27Where it's like even if you're fully immersed if a if a human approaches you they sort of fade into your view
0:57:35We did get to demo this
0:57:37experience in our in our demo where
0:57:40It's like the the real-life person in the room around you coming at you that the devices cameras
0:57:49Looking out at the real world around you even if you're not using them to show your world like so you're on an airplane
0:57:55And you've decided I'd like my virtual
0:57:58Area to be the peak of Mount Hood because I don't want to look like I'm in a aluminum Boeing 737
0:58:05I want to look like I'm somewhere nice. Oh
0:58:07but a real flight attendant is approaching you to see if you would like a beverage or whatever as
0:58:14They get close to you. The camera will see their face see that they're looking at you
0:58:19And then start putting that person into you
0:58:22You'll you'll see that person sort of fade in and closer they get and I think the longer they look at you the more
0:58:29prominent they'll be they'll just sort of
0:58:31Sort of appear like a Jedi ghost and life at life-size at the right exact field of view
0:58:37Where if you lifted the headset up, they would be their face would be exactly where they faded in in your virtual view
0:58:45That's super useful because and I'm not it you've used VR way more than me. My son has a couple of the headsets
0:58:51He's used for gaming. I've tried them. I tried him again after trying apples
0:58:56We have what do we have the HTC Vive I think is the the best one we have
0:59:01but
0:59:03knowing from when I've gone into his bedroom when he's playing these games the the ID the immersion and the
0:59:09Like trying to get him to come down for dinner
0:59:11It's it's always it's horrible because I know it's gonna shock him and I come up and he won't hear me cuz he's got headphones
0:59:18On and I'll touch his shoulder and he jumps out of his chair
0:59:20Yeah, he's neck deep in zombies right and the hair like touching the mother solar, right? And even after the
0:59:28crueler
0:59:29Fathers might take advantage of this and try to do it
0:59:37But no matter how kind you're trying to be there's no easy way to break them through it is it's a it's a legitimate problem
0:59:44And it's a very and it's it reduces like the big thing
0:59:48It does is it reduces the amount of time that you can actually use the thing
0:59:51I think that's the key of it like yeah on a human level
0:59:54Knowing what's around you is nice and it's a it's good affordance to have etc
1:00:00But there is a deep animal thing about humans that makes them unwilling to block a major
1:00:07sensory input for long periods of time and I
1:00:11believe people who are differently able to have vision issues or
1:00:16Have impairments to hearing etc will tell you this like they adapt whatever
1:00:22But if it's something where that they had and then lost
1:00:25There is no massive
1:00:27psychological adjustment that didn't go under and if you do cover your eyes and are unable to see the world around you and you're used to
1:00:35Being sighted then you are going to have some
1:00:39unease
1:00:40Right that builds and builds and builds over time until you're like, I gotta get this thing off
1:00:45I gotta look around me
1:00:46I gotta like smell and see and dazed and like you do all the things so that I know where I am and what's around me
1:00:51Etc. So there's that animal brain thing where it's like if you can't see you're gonna die
1:00:55That's what your deep core is telling you if you can't see you can't see threats
1:01:01Right and like that is what is the wave that builds and builds until it crests you're like
1:01:06I gotta take this off and take a break whatever now
1:01:09I'm setting aside the whole like how long should you be in these things?
1:01:13medically
1:01:15Whatever like I'm setting that aside, but in terms of likes periods of sustained work or productivity
1:01:21They needed to solve that problem very thoroughly if they expect people to go in there and work
1:01:27Right for an hour or two or three or four plugged in whatever you've got to solve that problem. You cannot
1:01:34Expect people to go into those worlds and like put up Mount Hood and never see anybody approach or I'll be unable to turn off
1:01:42Mount Hood when they feel uncomfortable and immediately get relief without having to take the thing off
1:01:46And you don't have to take it off. You just dial it back you reach up
1:01:51You turn your dial on the headset and that dial dials back to the opacity so to speak or the the immersiveness
1:01:57It actually doesn't just do opacity. It shrinks right your worldview down and allows you to see what's really around you
1:02:05and I think that's that's a really good affordance and it really is a
1:02:08Big a solve for a big problem that people who haven't used
1:02:13VR for long periods of time don't realize exists yet
1:02:17Now people who have anybody who's been using this stuff for a long time will tell you. Oh, yeah, it's a real thing
1:02:23But people that have it don't know that this problem exists
1:02:26But Apple does obviously and they've put a lot of work into sort of solving that yeah, and I think it sort of gets to
1:02:33The heart of what I was trying to get at with the the headset itself
1:02:39I side-to-side doesn't look that different than other headsets, but Apple's ambition here is so much broader than that. It's almost
1:02:47Like maybe I don't know
1:02:51If if the first iPhone had had a physical BlackBerry style keyboard
1:02:57It it's still the concept of iPhone and how
1:03:04How much more it was it really was a computer?
1:03:08Turned into a gadget as opposed to an electronic gadget
1:03:13That was ever more. So trying to be computery
1:03:17Which is what blackberries and the phones of that era really were like nobody has any fondness or thinks
1:03:24Oh, there was lots of legroom left and Nokia's
1:03:28operating system Symbian, right it wasn't like Symbian had a bright future ahead as a
1:03:33consumer operating system it
1:03:36What they're what they're
1:03:39Envisioning here is a way. It's not just a front end to like a launcher for different experiences
1:03:46They've they've come up with a concept for the equivalent of like our desktop in the Mac
1:03:51like here's here's the base level of
1:03:54Spatial computing and it's like set your environment
1:03:58show me a list of apps a home screen of apps and
1:04:02show me how to contact other people and those are the three main things and
1:04:09Here's the definition of the playing field in front of you
1:04:13You'll be able to open windows and put them here and it doesn't matter whether it's a web browser or a notes app
1:04:19Or your email or watching a movie you can put it in a window
1:04:24And then here's the metaphor for how you'll be able to move them around and rearrange this work
1:04:29workplace in front of you
1:04:32really to me and
1:04:35Everybody you and I and on this on this very podcast many times have talked about our
1:04:41frustrations with multitasking with iPad OS right with the
1:04:46Because the iPad and and it it's a very hard problem to solve that they still haven't solved
1:04:51But basically at one level you just want one app and have it take up the whole screen like it does on the iPhone
1:04:57And then another level it's like yeah
1:04:59But I kind of want to do two or three things at once and I splurged on the 12.9 inch iPad Pro
1:05:04I've got room for it. How do I do it?
1:05:06But you're still looking maximum looking at this 12.9 inch iPad screen
1:05:10The the number of people who are connecting their iPad to an external display
1:05:16It's a great feature and I know some people love it, but very few iPad users work that way
1:05:22This to me what vision OS it you really have to go to Mac to see
1:05:29Palette in front of you as big as this can be and this can be so much bigger than even the biggest most
1:05:36Desktop displays you can put in front of you if you get three Pro display XDRs. It's pretty
1:05:42Putting aside how many 6k displays your Mac can actually push the pixels to you're just running out of physical desk space
1:05:52right whereas and and
1:05:55You have to like physically move right a lot right take the whole take all that in
1:06:00Yeah, right
1:06:01Whereas this is letting you have that type of screen real estate in front of you
1:06:06But it organized in a systemic way like this is how you do it, right?
1:06:11So that if your idea as a developer is an app
1:06:15You know that it
1:06:18That isn't one of the built-in apps from Apple
1:06:21It's something totally original you you they've already laid this
1:06:25Idiomatic user interface. This is how your app will fit into the broader world of vision OS and computing
1:06:33I don't none of the other headsets have anything like that. They're they just don't have the ambition to have
1:06:41Apps like that like where you'd be multitasking side by side
1:06:46Yeah, I don't think so. I mean like there's certainly like big screen or another one of the other desktop or
1:06:51Theater type apps like they they built those paradigms in on an app level right like so you can launch an app
1:06:58That's for work right and like have virtual desktops right there. There are a few of those out there that'll that work
1:07:03Okay, I guess like functionally they operate
1:07:06But they obviously don't work in any real terms because of the resolution of the screens right so that they're hamstrung by the function of it
1:07:14But at a at a system level they're all built around games
1:07:18Like all the existing ones are built around the app paradigm, but really games right like let's all be honest
1:07:24it's like it's the
1:07:26Apple leaning into the work paradigm as like the the base experience that is expected to be viable and
1:07:34To create there. There's a term in I don't know if it's I don't know if it's just related to gaming but
1:07:40Exposed myself in destiny, which is a video game. I play a lot when they have this
1:07:45this system of elemental powers that you have that you use for your characters and that's like
1:07:50The normal magic type stuff right like fire and ice etc
1:07:54But they have these things called verbs and verbs are like hey when you do something when you do X it creates X effect
1:08:00and so if you have like multiple verbs going at once you've got like
1:08:04Long term effects and short term effects and these things are working and I think in it's a good try
1:08:08I don't know. Maybe I'm just like ignorant and maybe this is already there's already a term for this in in OS design or in UI
1:08:15design, but basically I think Apple is
1:08:18sketching out a framework of verbs for everyone like if you want X to happen if you want this verb to happen like you want this
1:08:25Thing to scroll or fling or or land or whatever
1:08:28them leaning into the work paradigm and like setting everything up in that arena, I think is
1:08:34Really nice because it does
1:08:38Establish that they are building an OS
1:08:40They're building a landscape for you to verb on top of like verb to your heart's content
1:08:46But like here are the ways you convert and like that idea of the build-out
1:08:51Starting there and not with like hey, this is a box for apps
1:08:58Right, like there's a genuine framework here for experiences that encompass the entire thing and you can work within that
1:09:06Like a big Apple I think the SDK SDK the way it lays it out is like there's three or four different kinds of
1:09:12experiences that you can or should be building like
1:09:16Volumes, I can't remember exactly what they are like windows volumes
1:09:21Spaces and immersive apps I think right and like those verbs
1:09:25Allow you like multiple pathways to explore like an immersive app might be a game, right?
1:09:30So that's a verb but a windowed app is like hey, maybe your app has multiple windows that present things in a different way spatially
1:09:37Maybe they interrelate and work together. They don't but they don't have to be like an app in a box
1:09:43so I think that's it's a good way to approach it I was just there's a
1:09:47Relatively new I think opened in last year. It's one of my favorite pizza places here in Philadelphia
1:09:52Now poly G's slice shop and it's just good. You'd love it
1:09:57It's just good New York style pizza here in Philly and it's a nice little restaurant - it's good for takeout
1:10:03They've got a bar. You can just sit there and have beer - but then over in the corner
1:10:07They have a TV hooked up with an Atari 2600. So you just sit there and play and it just occurred to me. It's like funny
1:10:14that
1:10:16There was no obviously operating system, right? It's like right. So how do you switch games?
1:10:21well
1:10:21You actually take cartridge and physically put the cartridge in and turn it back on and then you turn it off and just get static
1:10:29On your TV, right?
1:10:30take the cartridge out put it back in and
1:10:32Obviously game consoles have evolved and you don't you don't you don't put cartridges or discs in anymore
1:10:38you mean you can but there is an operating system on the PlayStation and an Xbox and the switch and
1:10:44The switch is the one I have they all
1:10:47Carry that the Sony one feels very Sony the switch one definitely feels Nintendo II, right?
1:10:53There's a very very Nintendo vibe just to the operating system of the switch and they all have web browsers now
1:11:00Which is technically you could do work, right? So you can like open a web browser on Xbox or open it on switch
1:11:07But nobody there's the the system you can't really imagine
1:11:13What would it be like if I could do my email and my messaging and my email on this?
1:11:17It just isn't and it it wouldn't be appropriate for it, right?
1:11:22That's that's not what people buy these things for it's it's not I'm not complaining about it
1:11:27It's not a limitation, but it's primarily there basically so you can launch a game and the game takes over the screen
1:11:33Mm-hmm, and that's to me is what the other VR headsets are like they're they're like game consoles in a headset
1:11:40Where is this there? There's a very ambitious
1:11:43Vision for any sort of computing that you could do in front of you
1:11:48It like you said there's verbs for it in in this vision OS
1:11:54universe in front of you
1:11:56yeah, you mentioned game consoles and like my mind goes like the most
1:12:00Interesting. I'm gonna use that term very specifically the most interesting interface work in game consoles
1:12:07I think has come from the Xbox. I don't know that they've all been successful or usable
1:12:12Cooper, you know, whatever like they they have missed on execution in a variety of ways on Xbox over the years
1:12:19But it's certainly the most interesting like they have done
1:12:22I think the most work and effort to try to think about like
1:12:26what does it mean to be an operating system that supports a
1:12:31multi
1:12:34faceted gamer experience like from social to store to
1:12:38Multiple games and now as the consoles have gotten more powerful
1:12:42Multiple applications running at once just suspended like instant switch between games and things like that
1:12:48but the PlayStation 1 is extremely rudimentary still and I think
1:12:51Unfortunately, very like archaic and I it's the platform I use the most but I think Xbox has done the best in this
1:12:59So like if you're looking at like best in class game
1:13:03documentation not necessarily
1:13:05Particularly the best period but certainly the most interesting
1:13:10I think they act the way the Xbox - has evolved over the years has been really interesting to me
1:13:15And I think they have the best sort of paradigm for like look you're a gamer and you want to play games
1:13:20But like there's a bunch of other stuff that happens when you play games now
1:13:24Like you may stream you may get social you make clip you may share the clip
1:13:28You may get notifications from your friends and have like popovers that like engage you engage with them
1:13:34It's a totally different experience than popping in the cartridge
1:13:37And now you're playing the game and pop out the cartridge and I play a different game and like that that idea of this
1:13:42multi-layered experience I think is the DNA is very strong throughout like the the
1:13:48the world of
1:13:51Consoles or world of Xbox but then it's leeching into other arenas and some of this is the windowed paradise
1:13:58But I think a lot of it is not it's not Windows. It's layers, right?
1:14:01Right. It's a lot of it's a lot of non modal interfaces that allow you to do multiple things or see multiple things at once
1:14:08Part of that is just the growing sophistication of computer users
1:14:12Like just we're used to computers right and like that paradigm and so you're able to layer on
1:14:17New ones on top of it and I think spatial computing is very interesting to me as a concept because it layers in
1:14:23multiple
1:14:25User interfaces or maybe a window and a volumetric display and the thing you're right
1:14:30They showed an example of taking a 3d model and sending it on a desktop, right?
1:14:34And then you also have a floating window behind it like that's two different things
1:14:38Existing in a third thing which is a spatial volume
1:14:42With and then there's a fourth thing layer behind that which is the world like real life
1:14:48Right layered behind that and I think it's a very interesting thing that we're seeing develop here
1:14:53And I think it's like a product of its time
1:14:55massively because I think if you introduce this kind of thing a few years ago and you're just sort of like
1:15:01overwhelming people with choice and with with
1:15:04Option, but I think people are kind of ready for it
1:15:07And the fact is is that most VR headsets have essentially one modal popover that will will give you like oh you're in a game
1:15:13You're in an experience. Oh, press a button and now you're looking at the thing, right?
1:15:18Now you can choose another game or type or do whatever but very actually none of them
1:15:24Offer this kind of like you're in you're out fluid OS type situation. It's unique
1:15:30Very much. All right. Let me take a break here and thank our next sponsors are good friends at
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1:17:18My thanks to Squarespace for their continuing support of this podcast. I
1:17:23The last the last thing I want to hit on
1:17:27for sure, we're talking about vision and vision OS and like I I think that this was
1:17:34Not even in the rumors. I don't and I'm not quite sure that we've really come to grips with it
1:17:40Yeah, because I think Apple because it's not part of what developers need to know
1:17:45But the whole r1 chip
1:17:48Apple doesn't in this whole era of Apple silicon when they come out with these
1:17:53Chips, they pick a letter and then each generation gets a new integer behind it. They don't do it lightly
1:18:01Maybe the is it the u chips that are just for location?
1:18:06I know that it's like the w1 w2 is the wireless chips for air pods there the u chips
1:18:12I think are the ones for like proximity or something or maybe the one it still gets a digit
1:18:17I think like a u1. Yeah, I forget but I think that the r1 is a
1:18:23huge part of this and I
1:18:27Think and again, they're they're they're not spilling the beans on it because it's sort of it's not even secret per se
1:18:33But it's just they don't Apple talks about it as a product not
1:18:36Explaining how it works. But the way I understand it is it's sort of two computers in one
1:18:44there's
1:18:46The m2 chip in it is where like the apps that you see run
1:18:51So you're using Apple notes and Apple mail their apps running on the m2 and it's the m2 that's running
1:18:58Vision OS which is like a derivative of iOS
1:19:03just like iPad OS is a version of iOS and tv OS is a derivative of iOS and it shows apps and
1:19:09But the r1 chip are for I guess reality or real time
1:19:16They never they never explained they don't even say that the M is what the M is for. I mean and it's good
1:19:22I mean, I just assume the M is basically for Mac, but they use the M's now
1:19:26Now in the vision headset, they've been using them in iPad pros. So it's kind of good that they do M is for magnificent job
1:19:33That's a that's a fill answer
1:19:40Yeah, I could I could see filler jaws saying that for sure. Yeah, that's maybe it's for just but yeah
1:19:46I think and then the r1 is for all sensors, right? It's for everything else. It's well and where it
1:19:52right and it's where this pipeline of
1:19:55from
1:19:58light rays hitting the camera or
1:20:00Cameras on the outside because it's there's so many of the 12 of them
1:20:04yeah light ray hits the cameras on the outside of the headset and
1:20:0912 milliseconds later
1:20:12that image is on the displays in front of your eyes and
1:20:16That doesn't happen if it's going through the right. It's
1:20:21Without having custom silicon and a real-time operating system running that part of it
1:20:27It's it doesn't get to a latency that low and therefore if you just if you have no r1
1:20:32And you just ran it through the m2 which is doing the other stuff as well. You don't get there
1:20:37You don't get you don't get latency you you have more more more latency higher latency, whatever the the adjective is a
1:20:44worse experience
1:20:47less compelling experience more likelihood of motion sickness for sure and
1:20:52I think you'd be able to even people who can tolerate it without any kind of motion sickness
1:20:58less time before they start getting
1:21:03If not, even a headache just sort of it's like holding your breath sort of like eventually you just sort of need a break
1:21:09I always say I like and enough watching a 3d feature film to me is like that like it
1:21:15It I just run out of time
1:21:17It takes a level of concentration and it's not even that latency just adds to that
1:21:23There's just a maximum cap on how much time you can spend even in this. Yeah
1:21:28I'm sure even in vision no matter how good it actually is next year when it ships. I'm sure I would find it more pleasant to
1:21:35Spend 12 hours in front of a Mac than 12 hours in an vision Pro
1:21:40Mm-hmm, but there's it to me. This is
1:21:44It's one of those only Apple
1:21:47scenarios that that they like to talk about sometimes and sometimes not but I
1:21:53Don't see how
1:21:57Facebook to name one
1:21:59Gets there with their headsets without without having silicon like this like the fact that the quest 3 is running a snapdragon
1:22:06Whatever. Let's just say it's the best snapdragon. They could possibly get for running that hey, I don't think that chip is any well
1:22:14I've and again, I know we're talking $3,500 versus something that's gonna be like $500 but right whatever even putting that aside
1:22:22it's
1:22:24That's their version of the m2 in the headset
1:22:27So even if you gave Qualcomm all the credit in a world and said that this snapdragon is peer-for-peer
1:22:33Just as good as an m2 which it's not but let's just say that it is that still doesn't get that headset
1:22:41To this sort of experience because it doesn't have anything like the r1 and the real-time operating system
1:22:47That is putting the camera in front of you with the least latency possible
1:22:53Yeah, I don't I don't
1:22:55Know if that's possible to say definitively right like I let's say okay. Let me pause the scenario for you
1:23:02So let's say took tomorrow which I'm sure happened about a month ago now
1:23:06Mark Zuckerberg calls a meeting with all of his top hardware people that run the oculus and says
1:23:12Apple just absolutely crapped all over the capabilities of our top-end device quest pro or the the
1:23:20Maximum we could have done or ever did with the rift etc. Like what is what would it take for us to ship something like this?
1:23:27No cost too high right, right? I think that if you posit that scenario
1:23:33I think there's a possibility that they can get to
1:23:38The latency not talking about everything here because as we've already acknowledged
1:23:44This is like a company the top of its game engaging every single one of its neurons on this thing, right?
1:23:50But let's just talk about like the latency and display resolution. I think they could get there plugged in
1:23:58With
1:24:01Not off the shelf but quasi custom in other words they go to arm or somebody or whoever you can say. Hey, could you
1:24:08Give us a process that does X and they say we can unlock some cores or create some custom instructions and get you that
1:24:15Get you there with this. I think they could probably get there plugged in
1:24:20Within maybe a year
1:24:22two years
1:24:24Like maybe like this is just completely theoretical based on my rough understanding of like capability
1:24:30But like here's the thing the state plugged in right?
1:24:34This is on battery
1:24:35Which is it really all about efficiency and I think that it's that power per watt thing that makes this possible in a portable device
1:24:42So I think there is a theoretical possibility that they could say hey, let's take 12
1:24:47Cameras and five sensors and a bunch of microphones and add another processor right like a whole nother one, which wouldn't be
1:24:55Customized to the degree the r1 is because the r1 is custom, right?
1:24:59We don't know exactly how custom because we haven't had a teardown yet, right?
1:25:03Nobody's got a hold of it and done a x-ray and we'll know eventually right when people do that
1:25:08But it's custom obviously and it has most likely and enormously
1:25:17Robust power per watt rating right like it probably does all of this shit extremely cheaply from a power perspective
1:25:24If you X all of that out of the equation, maybe they could get there but it would be tethered to a computer
1:25:31It would take a couple of years to get there
1:25:33It's not really possible for them to like ship anything competitive within
1:25:38The time frame that Apple is gonna be announcing the next thing or even the next thing after that, right?
1:25:43So it really is like a byproduct of the cascading
1:25:47Advancements they built in power efficiency that makes the r1 special
1:25:52It's not like somebody can't slap another processor into a device like this and get it to do similar tricks. I think is
1:25:59Once again, I don't know how custom this is. So maybe that's not true. Maybe Apple's done something
1:26:05We're like, oh crap, like this is all patented. Nobody else could ever do this, etc
1:26:08But theoretically speaking of the you could put another processor in there in a tethered device
1:26:13That's not battery-powered and maybe get to a similar capability within a couple of years
1:26:18but it is the
1:26:19Advancements that they've made in the power per watt and the efficiency and all of that that enables them do that in a battery-powered
1:26:25Device at this point in time shipping early next year
1:26:29That makes this so remarkable right is not the fact that it's like
1:26:35Mickey creating a wormhole in space or whatever. It's like compounding advantages
1:26:40That started with the original Apple silicon efforts, you know, and I think years ago
1:26:47Five six years ago. I mean Rockwell
1:26:50Dropped some sort of hint on my show that he's been working on something seven eight years
1:26:55Maybe pretty much even Apple hired him you could like look at his LinkedIn page
1:26:58I mean and it wasn't like they hired Mike Rockwell and said what do you what are we gonna have this guy do?
1:27:04Right, exactly. Yeah, and like they knew they needed it before that so they were working on it even before that
1:27:10Yeah, but I know people who are hired to this project six seven years ago eight years ago right about there
1:27:14So but not just him either, you know, it's very very clear that they've for many years five six years
1:27:22seen
1:27:24highest possible fidelity pass through as
1:27:27being
1:27:29table stakes and it doesn't seem
1:27:33That seems like something that they've been working towards and have invested now years in both the
1:27:39two operating systems right the the iOS vision OS and the real-time operating system that's running on the r1 and
1:27:47The silicon and the displays and the cameras right? There's like 12 external cameras
1:27:53so all of this hardware all of this software just for the pass-through experience and
1:27:59Pass-through seems like an afterthought on everybody else right like quest to literally just has like black
1:28:05I think it's like black and white or something. It's it's I know this is pretty rough
1:28:08It's just for like boundary setting right and boundaries and like just emergency like hey quick
1:28:14Can I see what's going on in a room around me without taking the headset off?
1:28:17Whereas in vision OS putting aside the first run calibration thing when you put it on all you see it first
1:28:25Is just the room around you. Yes. It's literally like the
1:28:29You know what the empty desktop is on your Mac or your home screen of
1:28:37Your first home screen of apps on your iPhone
1:28:40That in vision OS is just wherever you are. It's the world around you
1:28:46It's just the empty world around you in root full color
1:28:50With with the thing I can't stop being amazed by the exact field of view of your
1:28:57headset less eyes
1:28:59Yeah, there's two there's two allegories that I think it makes sense here one in computing very simply
1:29:06It's like all of the effort that Apple went through to make scrolling actually scroll
1:29:10Where is like when you pick up the iPhone for the first time?
1:29:13I think that's the one thing that everybody's like I gotta have this right once you touch it
1:29:16You're like Oh crud like holy cow, right, right and of course, that's the enormous amount of effort in a touchscreen that actually functioned correctly
1:29:23Right in processors that were able to do it in a mobile device on regular battery power blah blah blah blah blah, right?
1:29:30Like enormous amounts of effort to make the thing work exactly the way you'd expect it
1:29:35Right, like it's like you don't realize that you were not getting what you actually expected until they did it and they put an enormous amount
1:29:43Of effort just to make like zero zero, right?
1:29:47We were so used to zero actually being negative 32 that we didn't realize that we were at negative
1:29:52So we were like frozen and we're like, oh my god, it's zero like this is what zero feels like, right?
1:29:57And it's just it's like a it's like a chef who like
1:30:00takes a food like a really talented chef will take like a zucchini or a blueberry or whatever it is and
1:30:06Their job is to not
1:30:09Fuck up the taste of a blueberry
1:30:13Right, like the most talented chefs realize this like it's not about making a blueberry not taste like a blueberry
1:30:18It's about making it taste like a platonic ideal of a blueberry, right?
1:30:22Right, like that's what you want to insulate the best the most talented
1:30:25People and I work so hard to make this thing feel like what it should feel like like a paint a master painter
1:30:33Rendering something so perfectly you're like this feels like life
1:30:37And I think that's where they've gone with this is that they put an enormous amount of effort in
1:30:43oodles of money and people and and
1:30:46Mental anxiety and effort etc. It's a bit to just feel like the world like you put it on you like what?
1:30:53You're like, what's the deal? Right?
1:30:55Exactly, right so you can just go on Amazon and for seven dollars get a pair of like chemistry lab safety goggles
1:31:03Right and put it on it
1:31:07Because you know, you've got some goggles on right there's some yes
1:31:11I've got goggles on and I see I'm looking through something but what am I seeing?
1:31:15I'm just seeing the world around me as I was expect to see it
1:31:18And yes, they've spent like just billions of dollars thousands of engineers
1:31:24Just to show you what you can see through a $5 pair of safety glasses
1:31:28Right, right while you're which is like a very Apple thing
1:31:34You'd write like that's wouldn't see what people say. Oh, that's a very Apple way to do it or that's an Apple thing
1:31:39this is the
1:31:41This is it like this is the example of like what an Apple thing is
1:31:45It's like hey an enormous amount of effort by a lot of really telling the people to make a thing feel like it should feel
1:31:51That's it. Right and and so it gets to like and I still haven't zinged them about it. I'm going to this week
1:31:58I bet I'm already like weeks late, but Zuckerberg just comments after the keynote leaked and you know
1:32:03What's he gonna say? I and some to some degree. I'm sympathetic cuz what? Mm-hmm. Did you watch the blackberry movie?
1:32:10I haven't seen it yet. It's good. I like you though. I think I think everybody you'll like it
1:32:15It's not great, but it's as good as it should be right. Okay. I can't see how they could like a blackberry, right?
1:32:20Yeah, exactly. The one thing I did mild spoiler, but obviously it ends with after the the iPhones come out. They don't
1:32:28Show what's rumored there were reports that like the day or two after the iPhone announcement that the top people
1:32:35engineers at at rim
1:32:37Thought that Apple might have faked some of it
1:32:40They're like this because you can't they can't do that
1:32:42So they must they were like, but it doesn't seem like Apple to fake something and they say they're selling it in six months
1:32:48But otherwise this doesn't make it doesn't compute that right that they're saying that their phone can do this. I
1:32:53I kind of feel I
1:32:57Don't I don't think Zuckerberg had that reaction
1:33:00I don't feel like there's that just shows that to me if that's true that the rim people again
1:33:05That's not in a movie. But if it's true that Mike Lazaridis or I
1:33:08Repenances her name really just couldn't even believe it was true shows how far behind they were
1:33:13But it's believable in hindsight because they really were that far behind. I don't think Zuckerberg
1:33:18Misses what Apple showed I think he gets it but his comments
1:33:24About like the social aspects for it his comments to to rally the troops were basically
1:33:29Everything Apple showed were people all by themselves doing things by themselves
1:33:33that's not my vision for the future of this my vision is social and
1:33:38We know that they use they renamed the company meta
1:33:41you know and their vision of the metaverse is that you put the headset on and then you go to have a meeting and
1:33:47You're in a virtual place as an avatar and you see these other people
1:33:53All in a virtual place like you're playing playing a game a video game where the game is a meeting
1:34:00Alright, man, right, but but that's and whereas the Apple but Apple's vision for how you'll socialize
1:34:07With the headset is the actual socializing with the actual people around you and it's the actual room around you
1:34:15And it is so in some sense. I I think I think Apple's probably right and Zuckerberg is very wrong
1:34:23But he he did put his finger on the key difference in where they see it going is is your socialization
1:34:29While you're doing this primarily still like interacting with the actual people
1:34:33Who you could actually reach out and physically actually touch and the actual room you're actually in or is it about an entirely virtual?
1:34:41environment and entirely virtual
1:34:44Renderings of people who might be all around the world. I mean and
1:34:51We were very limited in the demo we got with FaceTime with the personas
1:34:56We got to speak to one person from Apple and and I think as it stands right now
1:35:02I think they're only saying it's one at a time like you couldn't get me and you and
1:35:08Joanna Stern in a three-way conversation as the software exists today
1:35:14But they appear in a window, you know, and they are 3d. It's not just a picture of them
1:35:21It's kind of 3d
1:35:23but it's most definitely in a window and
1:35:26Definitely not pretending like that person is virtually in front of you
1:35:30Which is the sort of metaverse idea of how you would interact with somebody?
1:35:34It's very very different at a at a very just first level like a fork in the road like oh
1:35:41meta
1:35:43Facebook has spent years down this path of being completely virtual whereas apples very top-level takeaway is
1:35:51That they're not going to fake
1:35:53Put you in front of a person at all
1:35:56Yeah, I mean the the FaceTime thing would be the exception if you're face timing somebody else with the thing on obviously they're producing like this
1:36:04Virtual avatar right? Yeah, but not but not pretending that it's the person in front of no, right?
1:36:09Yeah, and only their face like, you know, like it's a very much like oh, this is a call, right? Right
1:36:14I think that you're right that the paradigm that they're presenting is different
1:36:17I don't know which one which one will prove out to be completely right or wrong or whatever
1:36:21but I think you're dead on that like they have two very divergent visions for this like I
1:36:26Think the quest vision is presenting the people being present in the room
1:36:33Virtually that are somewhere else is the important thing and apples vision of it is the work that is being done is presented for dress
1:36:42And like that that it's like the differentiating factor there to me
1:36:45It's like metas put a lot of emphasis on like oh if you put the people in the room and then you layer the work
1:36:51On top like things will get done whereas apples likes saying hey if the people are in the room with you
1:36:56You're all still able to work together and that's great. But if they are virtual it's the work that's being done
1:37:01That's important and you can see each other working in various representations
1:37:06Like we saw one example with their collaborative app, which I always forget the name of freestyle freestyle
1:37:12Yeah, free hand was the illustrator rival. Yeah, you're right. You're right
1:37:16But the the freestyle application show very for a free form free form thinking I do it for dinner
1:37:22But yeah, the you can edit it in making up some like I remember but the the you see the various floating icons, right?
1:37:29Right, that's like a figma style collaborative thing that we've seen many times and apples like look. This is fine
1:37:36Well
1:37:36You see that people are working on various
1:37:38Elements of this virtually and you're comfortable that they are working on it together and you're talking perhaps or whatever
1:37:44But you don't need like their bodies
1:37:47Virtually in the space with you. It's the work that's being done collaboratively. That's the center stage. Yeah
1:37:54It's very very different and it's gonna be interesting to see how they play out
1:37:58I mean and I I do think apples right but I mean I
1:38:03Because this is all uncharted territory and things seldom play out as designed once reality hits, you know
1:38:10I think I should for you this I don't know how I feel about this
1:38:13How much of all of this effort do you think stems from the fact that?
1:38:19Apple
1:38:21emphasizes
1:38:22physical
1:38:23co-working
1:38:24Like is this a byproduct of their psychology in the way that they work as a company like that they emphasize physical in office
1:38:32habitation
1:38:34maybe and and I know that this whole issue of
1:38:37remote work and work from home and Apple in particular is is become political it to some degree and people have very strong opinions, but
1:38:45and I know people sometimes when I
1:38:49Speak very favorably of in-person work people
1:38:55people who feel is that otherwise
1:38:59Well, well they they point out that I've carved out an entire career
1:39:04That's fair right where I I you know my you know famous I've talked about it my work life
1:39:13Hardly changed during kovat. I mean, yeah
1:39:16It's I've I mean mine too where we're so remote that the all the remote debate was basically
1:39:21Mute for us as a cut but it's certainly a topic obviously for a lot of but I but on the other hand
1:39:27I don't have collaborators, right? I mean that's part of the thing
1:39:30I mean and I've done some things over the years that are collaborative Vesper
1:39:34I did with Brent Simmons and and Dave Whiskus and Dave and I designed the whole thing together over iMessage
1:39:41So, I mean I've done you know, I like everything I don't have a black or a white view on
1:39:45Remote work. It's very very gray and it depends but I where I get and I could envision some alternate world where I do work
1:39:55Somewhere like at Apple or somewhere else where it's a team of people and I have in the past worked with people
1:40:00I have still have very fond memories
1:40:02from
1:40:0425 years ago at the student newspaper 30 years ago
1:40:07I guess there's a point at the student newspaper at Drexel where I can't even imagine
1:40:11Not being in a newsroom full of people on production night when the papers coming out the next day
1:40:16It not just for efficiency not just because of the certainly the tools the online tools for working remotely didn't exist in the 90s
1:40:25but there's there is a humanity to it and
1:40:28it is
1:40:31and I think that
1:40:33Apple both as an institution is
1:40:35built up around that to some to a large degree where they've attracted people and it's because it's the culture that
1:40:45real human interactions with your colleagues across disciplines and within your discipline are a
1:40:53bigger deal at Apple than at some of their competitors and at other companies who do similar things and
1:40:59Then I think it does sort of spill out into their vision of the world
1:41:04I think that's a very keen question from you and Facebook's going through the same thing where I know that they've sort of dialed back to
1:41:11the concerns of or complaints of some of their employees on some of their remote work policy
1:41:17but clearly their vision for the metaverse is
1:41:22Very very much it doesn't matter where you are
1:41:25Right. So I think that's a keen question. I think at a fundamental level Apple the people at Apple
1:41:31believe that it matters that you're
1:41:34physically with people at times not that you can't do things without it, but that
1:41:39It's different and irreplaceable and therefore not let's not even pretend that we can replace it by putting on a goggle
1:41:45Yeah, yeah, I know. I don't know either. You know, I don't know what the answer to that's why I asked
1:41:50I don't think I mean that it's very interesting that it's something that they it's not even like they have a rudimentary
1:41:56Version of it that they showed they have nothing in the whole vision OS
1:42:01Thing the concept they've shown that simulates you as an avatar with an avatar of another person in front of you
1:42:09Yeah, like a holistic telepresence type. No, they have no they just totally as advanced
1:42:15I wonder if you could by the way, John, I wonder if you could do this easily not easily
1:42:19I wonder if you could do this. I don't want to undermine the effort but as a developer you could probably
1:42:24Utilize the camera because oh, I think you cause we've it
1:42:28yeah, as we've already seen you could say hey set the camera on a desk and
1:42:33Stand ten feet away from it
1:42:36Will ding you will ping you on your iPhone from our app when you're the right distance away
1:42:40We'll scan you and then in our app, which is a virtual meeting environment
1:42:46You'll be represented as your full body plus a detailed facial skin
1:42:50Provided by the OS. Yeah, I actually don't know in the SDK
1:42:54I think we'll provide that to apps
1:42:56But I'm sure the app could do it itself if you well and at the very least you could have a virtual avatar like your emoji
1:43:03You know to me. Yeah. Yeah, like a faux a faux one, right? Right. Yeah, that's the expected emoji
1:43:07Yeah, that's why when we got the full facial skin, I was like, oh wow
1:43:11I expected the my avatar that I built in I miss it, right? But yeah, yeah interesting
1:43:16All right. Let me take a break here and thank our fourth and final sponsor of the show our good friends at collide
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1:44:57calm slash the talk
1:45:02Show I was thinking about it while I was doing the collide read there. I
1:45:06Did I here see here's what I think and Ben Thompson and I have talked about this on dithering quite a bit as to whether
1:45:14Facebook's entire we want to do our own hardware is ill-advised or not, right?
1:45:21And I think I believe more you don't have to read between the lines. I mean basically
1:45:24Zuckerberg has been very clear. He's very frustrated
1:45:28Ever since they missed out on mobile. He's seen the ways that Google and Apple in their own ways benefit from
1:45:35Controlling their own mobile platforms and Facebook missed out on they certainly tried they had the Facebook phone
1:45:41Gave up on it wisely when they realized it was too little too late and the whole reason that they've gotten into this in bot
1:45:48Oculus was hey, this might be the next thing we should own it
1:45:52It would be much better for us to own the platform or one of the platforms of the genre
1:45:58Then not and so here they are
1:46:01but at the same time
1:46:04Apple's fundamental business is making and selling products like this
1:46:09So for example Apple doesn't have many apps for Android they do famously have Apple music and otherwise though
1:46:15it's stuff like the the tracker detection app for for the
1:46:21Airtags and I'm and a migration tool for moving from Android to iPhone
1:46:27They don't make a lot of software for other companies products, and I don't think they should it's not really up their alley
1:46:33That gets the closest they get to that is with the TV stuff where they've started years ago started working to get Apple TV built
1:46:42Into the smart TV sets and stuff like that
1:46:44Facebook to me is more like Microsoft where they're still primarily a software company
1:46:50And it obviously a different domain than Microsoft
1:46:53But I think it would be in Facebook's interest to be the company to make that app for vision OS
1:46:58Right so that you could have the vision if you're if you're if your headset isn't metas
1:47:03It's apples
1:47:05You can still participate in the meetings in their metaverse if your colleagues are using the quest 3 or the quest Pro
1:47:12I think they should be the company to make that app where you've got the metaverse
1:47:18Virtual avatars in front of you app. Yeah
1:47:20It seems obvious maybe as long as there are no technical
1:47:25Barriers that I don't know about right it seems obvious. I think it would absolutely make sense for them
1:47:31It is in their area of expertise. I mean they've spent billions of dollars trying to make it work
1:47:35So seems like they would be capable of doing it. It would absolutely fly in the face of like
1:47:42Mmm, the any of the quest devices as a colocation work device, but maybe they don't need to be like that
1:47:49They certainly haven't needed to be like that so far
1:47:51Because none of that works
1:47:52no that sells quest devices right all of those all their experimentation with colocation and and
1:47:58virtual work and all this stuff none of that sells quests what sells quests is beat saber and and
1:48:04Vacation simulator and whatever else right like so right. Maybe it doesn't need to be that maybe it needs to be
1:48:12A game console until they catch up to the place where they can render texts
1:48:17And be a work device in a couple of years and until then I think it makes a lot of sense for them to say
1:48:23Meta has spent an enormous amount of time
1:48:26Developing this and working on human interaction over in a virtual space and we're gonna be there on vision problem day one
1:48:32Whatever that might require some sort of patching up there a bit of that relationship or at least a swallowing of some sort of pride
1:48:39But I think it would actually be quite good for them
1:48:42Your comment about rendering text reminded me. I'm so glad you said that and I know Apple emphasized it multiple times
1:48:50I know as far as I could tell every single person who took the got the demo and wrote about it or youtubed about it
1:48:56mentioned
1:48:58That yeah text was very readable in the vision OS you could definitely read you can definitely imagine
1:49:04Reading articles and stuff or doing your email and all the things you'd want to do that would involve reading or writing text
1:49:12that they definitely the screen resolutions there I
1:49:15Wish that we had gotten to try the Mac right debt virtual. I don't think that was ready. We didn't I don't think that was done
1:49:23Well, and I'm well, I don't know if it's done, but I just don't I don't think it was demo ready, right?
1:49:29Yeah, I think that's clearly why they didn't do it. I know from talking to Rockwell offstage
1:49:34It's definitely there and they're used people are you there?
1:49:37People are using it and they people are using it and loving it on the on the team as they say
1:49:43But I'm curious to when the reason I wish I'd experienced it now is I'm curious
1:49:50How big it looks in front of you because the one thing I noticed from my time that precious precious 30s
1:49:5830-minute demo is
1:50:01It seems to me from my memory of the experience and looking also at these screenshots now from developers
1:50:08playing with the vision OS SDK
1:50:11that the virtual screens in front of you are
1:50:15Further away than arms like
1:50:20My default you can move them closer
1:50:23But for me personally, it's just and I've played around with it as my eyes have changed in recent years
1:50:29And I've gone through other problems, but for the most part
1:50:32Especially like when I'm in front of my cinema or my studio display
1:50:36I sit almost exactly arms length in front of the display
1:50:41My comfortable distance is a like about about one inch shorter than if I just put my arms straight out in front of me
1:50:48Whereas the windows I was looking at in vision OS like looking at the photos app and looking at whatever Safari and whatever else
1:50:55they let us play with they seem to be more like TV distance or maybe like
1:51:01yeah, or like two arms lengths in front of me and
1:51:06I wouldn't be able to use my studio display or a pro display XDR at
1:51:13Six feet in front of me because everything would look too small
1:51:18But like the windows they well then how does it work in vision?
1:51:22They just make everything so arms everything like but it's everything is like 20 inches
1:51:26Exactly, so that's what I'm curious about with the Mac thing. It's like okay. They're saying it's a 4k display
1:51:33It might be more than 4k pixels
1:51:36But it's probably like I think I as I expect it'll be it'll be it won't be like having a 32 inch
1:51:45Pro display XDR in front of you. It's gonna be like having a 60 inch Pro display XDR
1:51:51Further
1:51:52In front of you than you would normally sit and everything. Yeah, that's interesting
1:51:56I mean, um, it's either that or they they make it so that it appears to arms lengths away
1:52:01We're arms like than a half away from you. Yeah, right. It just seems like that's the natural
1:52:07that that's the
1:52:10No pun intended the vision for vision OS that you you'll have
1:52:14virtual
1:52:16Much bigger displays than you would ever put
1:52:19Two feet in front of you, but because they're simulating it five or six feet in front of you
1:52:25you can have four of them and they're all like 50 inches in size and
1:52:29it doesn't even matter if you're in a tiny little dorm room or on a
1:52:35totally cramped coach seat in an airplane or on a train it you could just
1:52:41present them in a virtual world in front of you and you just
1:52:45Spread out and you just look at these big big screens
1:52:50Further away from you in a way that wouldn't even make sense in the real world
1:52:54You wouldn't want to have 60 inch displays in front of you ironically because a 72 inch TV actually renders text relatively poorly in
1:53:02Comparison. Yeah, like even your TV
1:53:05Right. Congratulations. If you have like an 8k TV or something, but like most of us that's not gonna be as good
1:53:11And there's two physics things that I think come into play here one is the parallax
1:53:17the degree of parallax between having four 60 inch displays out there in space a
1:53:24virtual
1:53:25Ten feet from you or 12 feet from you versus having three pro XDR displays at arm's length from you
1:53:33If if you people were talking a video but people are gonna be able to see this
1:53:37But like if you're at a desk and you're changing from one display to another that's a significant motility of your head and shoulders
1:53:44To like move back and forth or swiveling your chair or whatever and all of that is like
1:53:49Cognitive load to like find your place on the screen move your cursor to it
1:53:55Find where you're working click on it and start working right like that's actually a physics thing
1:54:00So when they're further out from you
1:54:01You're moving only a few degrees to your eyes perhaps only or maybe your head only a few degrees to go from one
1:54:0960 inch to 70 inch display to another which is
1:54:13Really nice because it lowers fatigue overall and it can make moving from one thing to another quicker
1:54:18Obviously that's coupled with the eye tracking and their ability to sense your focus your area of focus
1:54:24And then the second bit of physics is the hand gesture stuff, right?
1:54:28Because you don't have to move your hands out in space to interact with these things
1:54:34You can leave it laying in your lap because of the downward facing cameras
1:54:37They have that that keep track of your hands other very high-resolution ones
1:54:41They keep track of your hands because if you've used any gesture
1:54:44Tracking or gesture gesture forward interfaces wherever you want to call it like on on the quests or on other VR headsets
1:54:52Because of the way the cameras are situated you have to be up and out with your arms and that's exhausting
1:54:57Well, you only want to do it for a few minutes then you're like it is boring. Yeah, this sucks
1:55:00I don't want to do this. Give me my controller right and so like those two things I think are gonna make you
1:55:06They're gonna lower your fatigue and increase your ability to like work across these large multiple screens
1:55:12For longer periods of time and with relative ease whereas I think there would be a lot of concern if you're like
1:55:18Hey you these things are an arm's length from you
1:55:21So you're having to rotate in space like you're you're physically turning your body like a top to look at these things
1:55:27Or you're having to go up and out touch them physically out in space with your hands
1:55:32Both of those things would be big downsides which have been mitigated by the way that they're executing this
1:55:37Yeah, and I spoke to a friend at Apple just like most people at Apple had no idea
1:55:43Until after the keynote that he'd been working on this project to some degree for a while and
1:55:51It he said that the breakthrough for him was that when he was using it
1:55:56His inclination was to group multiple windows closer to the center smaller windows closer to the center and without really thinking about it
1:56:04Just sort of organizing
1:56:06his his vision OS windows sort of like they were on a
1:56:10Big Mac screen right in front of it and one of his colleagues said no
1:56:15no, you're just spread out more make everything bigger push it out a little bit more and fan it out in front of you and
1:56:21That's what they demoed for us in the end
1:56:25He was like God and once it it's not like working on a screen or two screens in front of you at all
1:56:31you just
1:56:33you had just have to think bigger physically and
1:56:35It by making the windows bigger and pushing them out a little
1:56:41You don't actually have to turn that much right which is what you're saying like, right?
1:56:45If they're if they're actually like arms length in front of you, like you're in a cockpit
1:56:49You're doing you're swiveling left swiveling, right?
1:56:52Whereas this you can have an array of four windows and you don't even have to move that much because they're so big and so far
1:56:58Oh fanned out that's one of you. Yeah, it's just it just doesn't map
1:57:03It just doesn't map to the way that we've spent our lives working with everything on actual screens in front of us
1:57:10And I guess we could do a speed run through the rest of WWDC but that's
1:57:15in hindsight
1:57:18The only other thing I just say without I do have a review, you know
1:57:22I didn't write a review of it because there's hardly anything to say I have the 15-inch MacBook Air
1:57:26Which is the most obvious product that Apple didn't hear to Ford didn't make which is a?
1:57:33Consumer price laptop with a bigger screen and it does the reason it popped into my head here is because it does fit with this
1:57:39idea of hey putting your
1:57:41Apps in bigger stuff in front of you is good
1:57:44And people like it
1:57:47Just reminds me of that but going from 13 inches to 15 inches for a laptop
1:57:52It's like I pity the poor 15-inch MacBook Air because people have wanted
1:57:56something like this for 20 years from Apple a consumer price big-screen laptop and it's gone from
1:58:0213 to 15 inches which otherwise sounds great except it was announced alongside this thing that lets you put
1:58:10For 50-inch windows. Yeah
1:58:12Markets are probably slightly different for them for now. But yeah, it's yeah, it's nice computer
1:58:18I mean, it's so it's so funny because it's like oh, yeah m2 processor
1:58:22Probably more powerful than any person will ever need in there in this lifetime
1:58:27In the next 10 years and it's got 15 inches on it and it's like it's a that's actually a really solid
1:58:33ID as well like this particular
1:58:37Revision of the air's design is good. Like it's a nice compromise between something that's like
1:58:42this like
1:58:45Pizzazz II and something that's actually usable
1:58:48Like the hard the sharp edge air was never my favorite as far as my wrist wins and all that stuff
1:58:53Like they've just done a really nice. Yeah with it. It's just a really really really good computer
1:58:57It's like somebody's like, oh I need a MacBook. I don't I don't know what to buy as well
1:59:01I know what you buy this is what you buy. I think it's gonna be a default for a lot of people
1:59:05And it's it really is just wild to me that
1:59:09Until as of a month ago if you wanted something with a bigger screen
1:59:14Than 14 inches it you're looking at
1:59:182499 for the base model 16 inch MacBook Pro and now they've got one for 1299
1:59:24which almost everybody I know would prefer because
1:59:30It's thinner and lighter and there's absolutely nothing that the 16 inch MacBook Pro does that most people would even notice
1:59:38Yes, it has better speakers if you're using your MacBook speakers. Yes. That's a big difference
1:59:43Yes, the screen is brighter
1:59:44but in terms of the things most people would do and appreciate there's there's very little and it's
1:59:49almost half the price
1:59:52Yeah
1:59:54Dude, I mean it it's just none of the fans I guess like it's a problem, but it's a good problem. No, but I don't
2:00:01I mean
2:00:02They can't really delay this stuff. They're gonna just launch it into the in the atmosphere. I think it when the dust settles though. I
2:00:09It's obviously Apple doesn't announce
2:00:11This deep of a segmentation on what they sold and max wise but a lot of analysts will do run the numbers and kind of give
2:00:18Us estimates and I'm very interested to see what those estimates are and I I would guess it'd be high on how many of those
2:00:24They're gonna sell because it's only a couple hundred bucks more than the smaller screen one
2:00:27It's like if you're using an external monitor and this is really just a every once a while
2:00:31I'm gonna take it portable, but most of the time it's gonna sit on my desk thing
2:00:34Sure by the smaller one
2:00:35But if you're in any way superform using this as your only computer that you're taking everywhere
2:00:40Couple hundred bucks gets you 15 inches do it. That's easy
2:00:44And it's spec spec for spec with the same GPU and the same RAM
2:00:50It's that's only $100 difference from the 13-inch MacBook Air because the lowest price not counting the 999
2:00:57M1 MacBook Air but the lowest price to m2 MacBook Air comes with the part bin GPU
2:01:04I forget how many quits like eight cores instead of ten or something like that again
2:01:08Which again most people aren't going to notice but really spec for spec only $100 difference
2:01:13I I do wonder whether it's quint. I'm wondering curious if you if it's coincidence that
2:01:18It
2:01:20Starting last fall is when they also added the
2:01:24big screen
2:01:26iPhone 14 that's not a pro right and
2:01:29It's like I've been writing all year like and some people have said oh it seems like the for the
2:01:3614 max or whatever or no plus they call it right the iPhone 14 plus isn't selling that great to me
2:01:44that that product is about years from now like next year when the iPhone 15 comes out and the 14 plus is still there and
2:01:52keeps going down in price so that
2:01:54Two years from now when somebody is shopping for an iPhone, but they only want to spend 600 bucks
2:02:00they could get a plus-sized iPhone and
2:02:02Heretofore Apple didn't have big-screen phones except at the highest end prices
2:02:09Didn't have big-screen laptops except at the pro prices and now they're like, okay fine
2:02:14We'll send will sell big-screen laptops and iPhones at consumer prices
2:02:19But by the way, all of these screens are tiny
2:02:22compared to
2:02:24The expanse that you can get in a vision Pro. I don't know that it's completely coincidental like if vision
2:02:30Were still two years away would they have already started expanding these other devices maybe but you see you're you're saying that kind of
2:02:39entering into like a
2:02:41Size agnostic kind of universe where it's like, oh, what's an inch? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah
2:02:47Yeah, that's a good way to put it right that if we're why even quibble about 13 verse 15 versus 16 inch displays anymore
2:02:55Forget about it
2:02:56We can get we've got this other product that can show you a movie on a 60 inch display or a 60 foot display
2:03:02Right a 60 foot display like you're in a real
2:03:06Between between friends when that's the scale. Yeah
2:03:09Right. Hmm
2:03:12Well, anyway, I just call it a wrap that it's always good to talk to you is good to see you
2:03:17Yeah, the video is different and I like it's it's nice. I have to keep remembering to respond with my voice though
2:03:23Yeah, but I'm Italian so my instinct I know it's gonna be like the gestures. I
2:03:28Know I know I might have I did you know, it's inexorably everything moves to YouTube
2:03:36Yeah, this is YouTube and I can yeah, I can use hand gestures, but I do find myself doing that
2:03:41Let me thank our sponsors can't forget them our good friends at back blaze where you can get online backup for just seven bucks per Mac
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2:04:06Matthew panzerino editor-in-chief of tech crunch and personality extraordinaire on Twitter. Well, thank you very much
2:04:12I appreciate it always fun to talk. I mean, this is exciting stuff. I'm really really glad they did this
2:04:17It's it's been a long time coming and I'm anxious to see where it goes from here. But yeah, I'm always fun to chat
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