0:00:00[Music]
0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 486 for November 13th, 2023.
0:00:16This episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN, Zocdoc, Factor, and Oracle.
0:00:22My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hello, Jason.
0:00:26You know, Mike, Upgrade 486 is good, but wait until we get to Upgrade Pentium.
0:00:32Oh man, it's going to be fast.
0:00:34Is that a PowerPC joke?
0:00:35No, it's an Intel joke.
0:00:38The PC list, all of our Windows users know what I'm talking about, huh?
0:00:43Woo! Windows!
0:00:45Yeah, okay.
0:00:47All of those four people got the joke.
0:00:50It was a chip. That was the chip from Intel before the Pentium was a 486.
0:00:56I have a Snell Talk question for you.
0:00:59It comes from Tom, who wants to know,
0:01:01when you put your iPhone into a MagSafe stand for using standby,
0:01:05so you have it on the whole horizontal,
0:01:08which orientation is it?
0:01:10Volume buttons up or volume buttons down?
0:01:14I think it's...
0:01:16So what I do is I take it out of my hand and I rotate it counterclockwise.
0:01:21So I guess the answer there is that side button up, volume buttons down
0:01:26camera bump up, but it's mostly just a...
0:01:31I mean, it's really, I think ergonomically, I'm walking over to the stand,
0:01:36which is in my kitchen, and my hand, I'm holding it.
0:01:41I think even though I'm usually a left-hander,
0:01:43I think I put it in the stand with my right hand and I rotate it counterclockwise.
0:01:47So yeah, I guess I never really think about it, honestly.
0:01:50I'm using it more though. Here's the funny thing, Mike.
0:01:53I have the Studio Neat little wooden, very nice wooden thing that holds a MagSafe puck.
0:01:59It's beautiful. I forget the name of it.
0:02:01Material dock?
0:02:02Yeah, but it's just a little tiny one.
0:02:04It's just a little...
0:02:05They're all Material dock and then they have different ones.
0:02:07I see.
0:02:08Here's the problem. The camera pump on the iPhone 15 is so big
0:02:12that in order to get it on the charger, you basically need to put it on the charger
0:02:15and then just slide it until it hits the camera bump.
0:02:17And that's pretty much where the MagSafe charge is.
0:02:20Yeah.
0:02:21Yeah, it's huge.
0:02:22Because this is the thing with the Apple one, right?
0:02:25The little fold-out travel guy?
0:02:28That like, it doesn't sit completely flat anymore because the camera bump is so big.
0:02:33Yeah, so that I have occasionally not set it properly and my phone has not had battery.
0:02:38So I'm using that and also for standby, I'm using the stand a little bit more
0:02:45because standby is cool.
0:02:46And in fact, my standby started doing a thing I hadn't ever noticed it doing before this weekend.
0:02:52Came out on Saturday morning to make the tea.
0:02:56And there was on the phone, instead of what it usually is, which is the time and the weather,
0:03:05it was a live activity that had started from the TV app telling me that Arsenal was playing
0:03:12and that it was currently nil-nil with like 30 minutes or 20 minutes in.
0:03:18I haven't seen a live activity on...
0:03:20I've realized that now because I remember that was the thing that they announced.
0:03:23I have not seen one.
0:03:24I think it's enabled in the beta.
0:03:27I think this must be enabled in the beta because I'm on the beta on my phone.
0:03:31And I don't think I've ever seen a completely unbitten live activity start for a sports team.
0:03:37And I saw it all weekend.
0:03:39I also saw it at times that I didn't want to see it and you kind of have to manage that.
0:03:42But where they're like, "Hey, the Warriors are starting."
0:03:45I'm like, "You know, I like the Warriors, but I also like to see the time."
0:03:48But for Arsenal, it was great because I, as an American middling fan of soccer,
0:03:56I never remember when they're playing.
0:03:58And when they're playing at six in the morning, I don't really try very hard to get up.
0:04:01But because of our time change and all that, I've been getting up earlier lately.
0:04:04And I was like, "Oh, I'll turn it on."
0:04:06While I drink my tea in bed in the morning at 6.30 in the morning, I'll turn on Arsenal.
0:04:11So I did.
0:04:12Anyway, so live activity fired off.
0:04:13That was kind of fun too.
0:04:14So I enjoy being able to explore this feature.
0:04:19And so I've been trying to use Standby more.
0:04:21So it's been fun.
0:04:22I love Standby.
0:04:24I'm following you in buttons on the top.
0:04:26I have no reason why.
0:04:27That's just how I put it in every time.
0:04:29I have no opinion or reason and everything wants to be like, "Fight me.
0:04:32This is what the right way is to do it."
0:04:34And I just, I don't have any reason and don't care.
0:04:37But that is, I'm just reporting the facts here.
0:04:39That seems to be how I'm doing it for now.
0:04:43If you would like to send in a question to help us open an episode of Upgrade,
0:04:46just go to upgradefeedback.com and you can send in a Snow Talk question of your own.
0:04:52I have a reminder for you, Upgradians.
0:04:54Oh.
0:04:55The Upgradies, the 10th annual Upgradies are coming soon.
0:05:00Within just a couple of weeks time, the nominations will close on December 5th.
0:05:05Please go to upgradeies.vote and make your nominations for the 10th annual Upgradies Awards.
0:05:11This is your duty as an Upgradient to make these nominations to help Jason and I award our favorites
0:05:18in many categories in early December.
0:05:21Please go to upgradeies.vote and enter your nominations.
0:05:26There's a whole compilation process that happens, but I did a little automation I showed you last week
0:05:31that I think is going to help speed things up a little bit, which is great.
0:05:34Because it usually takes a really long time.
0:05:36So I'm excited about it.
0:05:37It does.
0:05:37It still does, but it'll be a little bit faster.
0:05:40But yeah, get those in now.
0:05:41We want to hear from you.
0:05:42While we're in this portion of the show, I will also remind you if you would like longer ad-free
0:05:49version of the show each and every week along with tons of other benefits for being a Relay FM member,
0:05:55like access to the Relay FM members Discord, which is a cool place to hang out,
0:05:58and where all the live discussion happens when we record live every week,
0:06:02go to getupgradeplus.com.
0:06:04It's just $5 a month or $50 a year.
0:06:06A bargain, I would say, to get no ads
0:06:09and longer episodes each and every week.
0:06:11On this week's Upgrade Plus segment, we're going to be talking about a selection of homekit updates
0:06:16that Jason has for me, which I'm very excited to hear all about.
0:06:19It's true.
0:06:19It's true.
0:06:20And we have some follow-up.
0:06:22So I wanted to know from you, Jason, right?
0:06:25So when we recorded last time, you just published the reviews of the MacBook Pro.
0:06:29And I feel like--
0:06:31And the iMac.
0:06:31And the iMac, of course.
0:06:33And I feel like over the last couple of years, every time Apple releases a new laptop
0:06:38or a new-- actually, any of the Apple Silicon products,
0:06:41there is the review process.
0:06:43They go out in the world.
0:06:45And we talk about it.
0:06:47People make-- the reviewers make their assumptions.
0:06:49Then it feels like the conversation shifts.
0:06:54Yes.
0:06:55In a way that always makes me feel uncomfortable,
0:06:57because it's like we talk about these things,
0:07:01we have our opinions, or, you know, I'll talk to you,
0:07:04you have your opinion, it helps form my opinion,
0:07:05and that's the conversation that we have.
0:07:07But then there tends to be this like, "But what about the thermals?"
0:07:11Or like there was a question that we had on last week's episode,
0:07:14which is like, we had no experience or information about the Pro chip, for example.
0:07:18That was just like a nebulous thing out there.
0:07:20Or like I think back to the Ultra,
0:07:23when it was like, "Oh, the Ultra is really powerful, super cool."
0:07:26And then it's like, "But the Mac Pro has no graphics cards!"
0:07:28Right?
0:07:29And so like then this like conversation kind of like moves.
0:07:32And so I just wanted to ask you,
0:07:35have you had any further opinions
0:07:39based on how the conversation has gone over the last week?
0:07:41It's an interesting effect, and I think it's a combination of things.
0:07:44First off, it's like, you know, we have our opinions,
0:07:47and I have, you know, done my due diligence as a reviewer,
0:07:51and I have opinions.
0:07:52And then it gets done to a wider world,
0:07:54and naturally different people are going to get different systems,
0:07:56they're going to have different needs,
0:07:57they're going to have different perspectives.
0:07:58I think that's all great.
0:07:59I do also think there's a tendency though for the internet
0:08:02to have a discourse that happens
0:08:04that includes people grinding all the axes that they want to grind.
0:08:07And it's, you know, it's not, I don't love it,
0:08:10but like it's, that's what it is.
0:08:12That's the internet.
0:08:13It's going to do that, and people are going to do that,
0:08:15and websites are going to write clickbaity articles
0:08:17to try and create new gates and new anger
0:08:20because it is, you know, better than a shrug, right?
0:08:24And honestly, I feel like my reviews were kind of shrugs,
0:08:26and a lot of the reviews were kind of shrugs.
0:08:28And in that kind of environment where it's just like it's a speed boost,
0:08:31and here's the deal,
0:08:32and otherwise these things are unchanged,
0:08:34and you know, it basically is a vacuum into which hot takes
0:08:39and gripes and things can fill that void,
0:08:42and there are a lot of people who want to fill them.
0:08:44And again, I don't love them personally,
0:08:47but it is a natural part of the process, I think.
0:08:51The part of the discourse that I don't particularly love in the last week
0:08:59has been about that base model M3 MacBook Pro.
0:09:02And the reason I don't, I understand it even though I don't love it.
0:09:07What I don't love about it is it's very idealistic,
0:09:11and like, you know, idealism, good on you,
0:09:15but I've heard a lot of "but it's called MacBook Pro."
0:09:18And if it's called MacBook Pro, with the word Pro in it,
0:09:22it should insert what you think is the pro-defining,
0:09:26category-defining feature.
0:09:28It should have 16 gigs of RAM.
0:09:30It should have a bigger SSD.
0:09:32It should have more ports.
0:09:33It should support two external displays.
0:09:36There's a whole lot of "it shoulds."
0:09:38And the challenge with that is that it doesn't mean anything.
0:09:42Pro doesn't mean anything.
0:09:44There's an iPad Pro, right?
0:09:47There's a Pro chip now for the iPhone, you know,
0:09:52because there's a Pro iPhone.
0:09:55What does it all mean?
0:09:56And the answer is it means what you want it to mean,
0:09:58it means what Apple wants it to mean.
0:09:59Apple generally has meant it's nicer.
0:10:01You know, there is no definition of what a Pro laptop is.
0:10:05So it's all in the eye of the beholder.
0:10:06And so if you have a particularly idealistic view,
0:10:10I mean, first off, you're a pretty hardcore computer nerd
0:10:13at that point, to have an idealistic view
0:10:14of what a computer spec should be.
0:10:16Doesn't, I'm just saying, you know,
0:10:19it is coming from a very particular perspective.
0:10:22Not saying it's right or wrong,
0:10:23just saying it's a particular perspective.
0:10:25What I would say though, is that what frustrates me
0:10:27about that discourse, because it's very much strongly implied
0:10:30that like Apple is making a huge mistake
0:10:32because they call this system Pro,
0:10:34but they don't dare to make it a properly Pro system
0:10:37because it doesn't meet my standards.
0:10:39And then there's the reality, right?
0:10:41And the reality, again, and I'm trying to not take this
0:10:45as like I'm taking Apple's side, 'cause that's not it,
0:10:48but I am on the side of reality.
0:10:50I do think it's worth pondering reality
0:10:52and not just living in idealism.
0:10:54And in reality, that base 14-inch MacBook Pro
0:10:59with the M3 chip instead of the M3 Pro
0:11:01and with eight gigs of RAM, exists for the exact same reason
0:11:06that the dumb 13-inch Touch Bar MacBook Pro
0:11:08that we all complained about,
0:11:11because it was so inferior to the actual MacBook Pro models.
0:11:15It's the same reason that that thing existed.
0:11:17And it's an ugly reason, but it's the truth.
0:11:20It's filthy commerce, right?
0:11:23Apple isn't gonna compromise on its margins.
0:11:27Apple knows that there is a market
0:11:30for a sub-$2,000 MacBook Pro that they need to hit
0:11:34because there are people who insist on buying something
0:11:37with the label Pro, but won't spend two grand on it.
0:11:42And this isn't somebody who's a legitimate Pro
0:11:45who spends 1800.
0:11:47This is a corporate buyer or somebody
0:11:49who wants something nice and is willing to buy something
0:11:53with terrible specs or with a Touch Bar.
0:11:56But they're not gonna spend $2,000 on that laptop.
0:12:00It's gonna be 1300 or now maybe 1600.
0:12:03That's it.
0:12:04So these products are completely not,
0:12:10I mean, I don't know how to put it.
0:12:13These products are not what we would ideally call
0:12:17a Pro-level system.
0:12:19The Touch Bar MacBook Pro certainly wasn't that,
0:12:21and yet it existed for two chip generations.
0:12:24Why is it?
0:12:25Because Apple knows that people wanna buy something
0:12:27called MacBook Pro, and Apple is not willing
0:12:30to compromise on its margins.
0:12:31Remember also that the new design for the M1 MacBook Pro,
0:12:35every time you iterate as Apple an existing product,
0:12:39the margins go up.
0:12:41So after two iterations with M3,
0:12:43they were able to get something with that screen
0:12:47and that beautiful 14-inch screen
0:12:49down to still only 1599,
0:12:53not down to 13, 1299 or whatever, 1599.
0:12:57So it's still a price increase.
0:12:59But clearly they are fighting margin,
0:13:02and they're not willing to give up their margin.
0:13:04And we could argue like,
0:13:05oh, in order to service the word Pro,
0:13:09Apple should give up its margins and sell computers at cost
0:13:12because you can't use the word Pro.
0:13:13And like, okay, again, I'm not gonna say they're wrong.
0:13:16I'm gonna say that that's not a realistic view
0:13:18of how the world works.
0:13:19And if you wanna believe that yes,
0:13:20Apple should not call it Pro, okay.
0:13:23Or Apple should not, should include more RAM in it
0:13:26at the same price which is gonna hurt their margins.
0:13:28Or, I mean, my problem is that I don't know
0:13:32what the answer is that those people are seeking.
0:13:35Is it Apple gives up their margins?
0:13:36Is it Apple, because that's not realistic, again.
0:13:39Is it Apple should not call any laptop under $2,000 Pro?
0:13:44Anything without 16 gigs of RAM or more and a Pro processor?
0:13:48Is that the answer?
0:13:49That feels very let them eat cake to me.
0:13:52It does it as a Pro user, does it make you feel better
0:13:57that there isn't some substandard computer
0:13:59that somebody buys that they can call Pro
0:14:01like your computer is Pro
0:14:02and they've sort of let the rabble in the door?
0:14:04I mean, it frustrates me
0:14:06when I hear some of these arguments.
0:14:07Or should Apple eat its margins
0:14:10because there is some group of users
0:14:12who thinks that 16 gigs of RAM should be the minimum
0:14:16and that nobody should ever be forced, I guess,
0:14:19to buy a computer with less than that?
0:14:21Or should these computers just be priced out
0:14:25of what some group of people can afford?
0:14:26Also keep in mind, Apple will probably lose sales.
0:14:29I think Apple will lose some sales
0:14:31by making the base model $1599 instead of $1299.
0:14:34They will get some new sales
0:14:37and they'll convert some to MacBook Air sales,
0:14:39but they'll also lose some sales from whoever,
0:14:42whatever corporations are like,
0:14:44"No, we're not gonna go down that loan.
0:14:46"We're not gonna buy a MacBook Air."
0:14:48Anyway, I hear the idealism, I get it.
0:14:52We all agree more RAM is better, more storage is better,
0:14:56more external monitors are better,
0:14:59but we also live in the real world
0:15:01and I think understanding why Apple does what it does
0:15:03and I think the attack here is not on that model
0:15:08for being, that base model for being underpowered.
0:15:14I think it exists because of the people who are buying it
0:15:19and Apple knows that.
0:15:20Apple knows exactly who's buying it.
0:15:22The truth is Apple always, I would say,
0:15:28prices their products with a base model that is poor
0:15:32(laughs)
0:15:33because they wanna hit a price point, right?
0:15:36They wanna hit $999 or $1099 or $1599
0:15:40and they know that somebody's gonna upgrade the RAM
0:15:43and we all know that that RAM upgrade for $200
0:15:47is way overpriced for what it should be in our opinions
0:15:51given the rest of the RAM market.
0:15:54I get the raging, I guess, but it frustrates me
0:15:59because it strikes me as that a lot of it
0:16:01is sort of naively idealistic and it's like,
0:16:04"Well, sure, I want an M3 Max for $1,000."
0:16:09But that's not gonna happen.
0:16:11So I understand the frustration here,
0:16:13but it's also, just to wrap it up, it's not new.
0:16:16I'll just say that again.
0:16:17This is the exact same thing
0:16:19as the dumb 13-inch Touch Bar MacBook Pro.
0:16:21It's the exact same reason.
0:16:22It is a substandard computer for what's on the label
0:16:26because some people buy the label.
0:16:28That's what it is.
0:16:29It's not great.
0:16:30My review, I really don't think that most people
0:16:35who care enough to be concerned about the eight gigs of RAM
0:16:38should buy it regardless.
0:16:40I think they should buy the base model of the M3 Pro
0:16:43because it's not that much more money.
0:16:45And if you've got a few hundred dollars more,
0:16:47you're gonna get more RAM
0:16:49and you're gonna get the better chip.
0:16:51But I know why this product exists.
0:16:53This product, I mean, honestly,
0:16:54this product isn't for nerds who care about specs.
0:16:56It's not.
0:16:57It's for corporate buyers and other people
0:16:59who refuse to buy a MacBook Air
0:17:00because it's a baby computer, even though it's not.
0:17:03And because this is a pro computer,
0:17:05because it's called pro.
0:17:06Even though, yes, I think we can all agree
0:17:10that in an ideal world,
0:17:11a computer spec like this shouldn't be called MacBook Pro.
0:17:14I get it.
0:17:15But it frustrates me
0:17:17because I don't think those arguments
0:17:21are living in the real world.
0:17:23- Very well put.
0:17:24I think the only thing that I would add
0:17:26is kind of like building on what you were saying
0:17:28about like being realistic and the product naming.
0:17:31I feel like pro for Apple lives on this kind of scale now
0:17:35of mentality to branding.
0:17:37And so I've kind of listed down all of the products
0:17:40that I can think of that Apple's called pro in recent memory
0:17:44from like at the very beginning of this list,
0:17:47this is pro by mentality to the end of this list.
0:17:51This is pro by branding.
0:17:52So you've got Mac Pro, iMac Pro, MacBook Pro,
0:17:56iPad Pro, iPhone Pro, AirPods Pro.
0:18:00When you get down to that very end, the AirPods Pro,
0:18:02that is not a professional product.
0:18:04Like a professional would not use AirPods in their work.
0:18:08Because there are Bluetooth headphones,
0:18:11they have latency and/or they don't sound as good
0:18:13as other products on the market.
0:18:15- And you can't plug them into a lossless source
0:18:17and all those things.
0:18:18- Mac Pros are literally only bought by professionals
0:18:21'cause you would be out of your mind to do it otherwise.
0:18:25Especially now.
0:18:26And then in the middle--
0:18:27- I would question that iMac Pro.
0:18:28Remember when the iMac Pro came out and people said,
0:18:30"How can this be considered pro?
0:18:31"It doesn't have slots."
0:18:33But it was though.
0:18:34Over its life we learned--
0:18:35- Let's see how our processors repeat for you.
0:18:37- It was for professionals.
0:18:38And then when you get into the middle,
0:18:40the MacBook Pro and the iPad Pro,
0:18:42they are products that professionals in the class
0:18:46that would buy this product would buy.
0:18:49So you get the expensive MacBook Pros,
0:18:51the expensive iPad Pros used by people
0:18:53doing professional work.
0:18:54Whether it's artists for the iPad Pro
0:18:57or it's coders for the MacBook Pro.
0:18:59But both the MacBook Pro and the iPad Pro
0:19:02is where things start to shift.
0:19:03Where these products are bought by people
0:19:05who are doing consumer level work on them.
0:19:08- That's why they're game demos about the MacBook Pro.
0:19:12And you think to yourself,
0:19:13"Well, you're buying a $7,000 MacBook Pro to play games."
0:19:15And the answer is, "No, you're not."
0:19:17You're buying a 1599 MacBook Pro to play games.
0:19:20Or maybe a $2,000 MacBook Pro to play games.
0:19:22And people do.
0:19:23And they're allowed to.
0:19:25They don't have to show their Pro card and say,
0:19:26"Yes, I realize that eight gigs of RAM is not enough."
0:19:29They don't have to do that.
0:19:31They can just buy it because they want it.
0:19:33'Cause it's nice.
0:19:34Because that is definitely...
0:19:35One of our listeners did their whole thesis on this
0:19:37and sent it to me.
0:19:38I actually have a copy of his thesis.
0:19:39I forget his name now.
0:19:40But it was absolutely...
0:19:45It means that it's nice.
0:19:46It was Taylor.
0:19:46Listener Taylor.
0:19:47- Is that the one we would quote it in?
0:19:49- Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, that was cool.
0:19:50- Yeah.
0:19:51But it's a signifier.
0:19:52It doesn't always mean what you...
0:19:54Even, and this is the thing about branding, right?
0:19:57All of us get to decide what the brand means to us.
0:20:00All of us do, right?
0:20:02The mistake is when you believe that that is what it means
0:20:05or should mean to everyone.
0:20:07Because a good chance it doesn't, right?
0:20:09MacBook Pro and iPad Pro are great examples, Mike,
0:20:12of...
0:20:13I know it says Pro on it.
0:20:15And you may be a pro who uses it for professional reasons.
0:20:18But that's not always what it means.
0:20:22- And also, the other part of this,
0:20:24like this scale of branding versus mentality
0:20:27that I'm thinking about.
0:20:29People know where they sit in this.
0:20:32And then you make the decisions, right?
0:20:33So if you want MacBook Pro for the branding,
0:20:37then you'll get the entry level.
0:20:39But if you're a professional,
0:20:40you know what you're buying, right?
0:20:43If you are a...
0:20:44You need professional scale computer,
0:20:48you do not buy the entry level MacBook Pro.
0:20:50You're not buying it, right?
0:20:52'Cause you should know what you need to do your work.
0:20:55You're not gonna be like, "Oh, it says Pro on it.
0:20:57It's definitely gonna be okay for me."
0:20:59Like, you're a professional, right?
0:21:01That you understand what you need from your tools.
0:21:05You're a professional.
0:21:07- Right.
0:21:08One of the problems that I've had in the last week
0:21:10is hearing and reading professionals
0:21:15who are expert computer users,
0:21:18who are probably going to buy,
0:21:19if they buy in this generation,
0:21:21the M3 Macs MacBook Pro,
0:21:26saying essentially,
0:21:29I know they didn't say it this way,
0:21:30but this is how I read it.
0:21:31Essentially, Apple shouldn't sell
0:21:35eight gigs of RAM as the base model,
0:21:38because some people are too dumb
0:21:40to know that that's not enough.
0:21:43That's how I read it.
0:21:44And it's like, you know what?
0:21:45They're not too dumb.
0:21:46They have a budget or they don't care.
0:21:49And will it mean that their computer runs a little slower
0:21:52when they've got lots of Chrome tabs?
0:21:53Yes, it will.
0:21:55It's not ideal,
0:21:57but we don't live in that ideal world.
0:22:00We just don't.
0:22:02And the alternative, I don't like the alternative,
0:22:05which is no, no, no, no, no.
0:22:06If you don't have $2,000 to buy a MacBook Pro,
0:22:08you shouldn't buy a MacBook Pro.
0:22:10Shouldn't be labeled that way.
0:22:11It's like, yeah, well, no.
0:22:13Apple's decided no, the market has decided no.
0:22:16It's not gonna happen.
0:22:17And like I said,
0:22:18Apple's not gonna sell 16 gigs of RAM for 1599.
0:22:22They're not.
0:22:23Maybe 1699 or 1799.
0:22:25Like if they made it the base, it would probably be 1699.
0:22:29I'm sure they looked at that.
0:22:30And they decided like, no,
0:22:32that kills too much of our market
0:22:33because there's a market down there
0:22:34that doesn't wanna spend a lot of money,
0:22:36but once pro is the label.
0:22:38And they're gonna get it one way or another.
0:22:41At least the touch bar is gone.
0:22:43- This is way too big of a conversation for today.
0:22:48I feel like, and I'm just gonna say this and move on.
0:22:50I feel like too much discourse today online
0:22:53is focused around fake people
0:22:56that people create in their minds.
0:22:58- Oh yeah, sure. - And then make arguments
0:23:00for that person that doesn't exist.
0:23:03- Right.
0:23:04- Brock wrote in to say,
0:23:05to further add to the confirmation
0:23:07that the plans for the bigger iMac is likely dead,
0:23:10the text for the iMac shown in the banner
0:23:12of Apple's Mac page on their website
0:23:15was updated to say, from iMac 24 to simply iMac.
0:23:20- Yeah, the URL changed too.
0:23:22It's apple.com/mac/imac.
0:23:26And it used to be iMac-24.
0:23:28It's not anymore.
0:23:30- Not anymore.
0:23:31It's just the iMac.
0:23:32That's the whole problem.
0:23:33- How many ways can we tell you that we are never,
0:23:37ever getting back together?
0:23:41Yeah.
0:23:42- This episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN.
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0:25:25It's time for the details.
0:25:29So we're gonna spend more time in a future episode
0:25:34actually looking at 17.2 'cause there's a lot in there.
0:25:37I've said for weeks now that we were gonna do this
0:25:41and things keep happening that's putting it off.
0:25:42- Things keep happening.
0:25:43Yeah, those live activities I think.
0:25:45- Indeed. - Those live activities
0:25:46in standby, I think that's gotta be a 17.2 thing.
0:25:49I wasn't getting those before.
0:25:50So there's stuff happening, things are happening.
0:25:52- And we can keep pushing it because 17.2 isn't out yet.
0:25:56So it's like this is a thing we can get to
0:25:58when there isn't other more important things to talk about.
0:26:01But this week Apple not only dropped in the beta
0:26:06the ability this past week to record spatial videos
0:26:09on the iPhone, so now on the iPhone
0:26:10you can scroll to one of the many, many, many things
0:26:13you can scroll through now in the camera app.
0:26:15- Well, it's not a scroll, it's a button you turn on.
0:26:18So there's a setting in photos that allows you to do
0:26:21in the photo settings of the settings app.
0:26:25- The camera? - That lets you
0:26:27do advanced, it's like where you set
0:26:31all that kind of advanced features of like,
0:26:33you wanna capture raw and all those things.
0:26:36And one of the switches down there is capture 3D video,
0:26:39capture spatial video.
0:26:40- Then how do you actually make the capture?
0:26:42- You're in the video tab and there's a little button
0:26:46that is a picture of a Vision Pro.
0:26:48And if you tap it and it lights up yellow
0:26:50and then you are recording only horizontally,
0:26:53only in 1080p 30.
0:26:56And that's how you do it.
0:26:58So it's just a mode of video capture.
0:27:00It's not a special spatial video thing you swipe to.
0:27:03- That's cool actually.
0:27:04'Cause my hope is that in the future
0:27:07this will work like a live photo works in that,
0:27:11like once they've gotten better at this,
0:27:13that like you can just record video,
0:27:15but it will also capture the data
0:27:16or like will also capture a second video or something.
0:27:19That's my hope for the future.
0:27:20- Well, you could always leave this on.
0:27:22You're just gonna only get 1080p 30.
0:27:25- Yeah, which is not. - And the reason for that is--
0:27:26- And you can only record horizontally too.
0:27:29- And you can only record horizontally.
0:27:30And the reason for that is you've gotta have two cameras
0:27:33next to each other so that you can do the parallax effect.
0:27:36And that means it has to be horizontal.
0:27:38And then they moved it so that it's the ultra wide
0:27:42and the wide that are together
0:27:44and that the telephoto is elsewhere.
0:27:47And the reason to do that is that they can crop
0:27:50the ultra wide to have it match the wide
0:27:53and you end up with a usable set pair of images
0:27:56that are offset to generate a 3D video.
0:27:59But once you crop the ultra wide
0:28:01to the same field of view as the wide, guess what?
0:28:04You can't do the resolution, the beautiful resolution
0:28:07that you would normally get in the wide.
0:28:09And you're down to, essentially they were not happy
0:28:13with anything other than 1080p 30.
0:28:16So that's where we are for now.
0:28:18I would put money on the fact that Apple is working
0:28:22on their camera stack to make it more capable
0:28:26of shooting 3D video.
0:28:28And I would also not be surprised if the long run,
0:28:31not only are they focused on having the higher quality
0:28:34on the cameras so that their 3D video
0:28:36is of a higher resolution, but that they make it
0:28:38so that their camera stack works 90 degrees from each other
0:28:43so that they can do vertical as well as horizontal.
0:28:46- I didn't know this until I read some of these stories
0:28:50that with the new iPhone, they rearranged
0:28:53where the cameras were placed so that this would work.
0:28:57- Yeah, yeah, that was part of the agenda.
0:28:59Yeah, it feels like this was a, nothing's a quick swap,
0:29:02but it feels like this was, this is not a complete
0:29:06rethinking of the iPhone's camera system
0:29:08so far as I can tell, as it is, we're gonna need
0:29:10to do 3D capture on the iPhone and they made it work.
0:29:14But what I'm saying is I would probably put money
0:29:17on a future camera stack design that is more specifically
0:29:22designed to be capable of shooting spatial video.
0:29:27- So they introduced spatial video recording on the iPhone
0:29:31and then in conjunction with that, Apple brought in
0:29:33a selection of journalists who experience some of these
0:29:36spatial videos recorded on iPhones on a Vision Pro.
0:29:40So more people got in to go in, try on Vision Pros again,
0:29:44it seemed like quite a select group.
0:29:45The response to this overall was once again very positive
0:29:49from everyone about kind of the experience
0:29:50of using the Vision Pro.
0:29:52And I particularly liked this quote from Joanna Stern
0:29:54because Joanna kind of sums up my initial feelings
0:29:58of the demo that we had of seeing these spatial videos.
0:30:02So Stern says, "Apple showed me some other spatial videos
0:30:05and one, a dad was telling his young kids a story
0:30:07in the back of an RV.
0:30:08It was so lifelike and cozy that it almost creeped me out.
0:30:11Why am I spying on this random family?"
0:30:13That's obviously the big appeal here, spatial videos
0:30:15create intimacy in ways 2D videos and photos don't.
0:30:19So like the technology is really cool, but if it's not
0:30:21your videos, it makes you feel kind of weird
0:30:23'cause it's so good.
0:30:24So I thought that this is interesting as a way
0:30:28of getting like a new renewed focus on the product again
0:30:31and then having these like smaller experiences
0:30:34for people to talk about ahead of kind of, I guess,
0:30:36a re-reveal of the product next year.
0:30:38I thought this was very clever from Apple to kind of like
0:30:41keep throwing the breadcrumbs out there for now.
0:30:44- And they didn't get to, you know,
0:30:45they're gonna release that capture feature.
0:30:46They did release that capture feature in beta.
0:30:49And so people are gonna talk about it.
0:30:51People are gonna reverse engineer the file format.
0:30:55All those things are gonna happen.
0:30:56I actually am, I haven't looked, but I'm assuming
0:30:59that at some point I'm gonna be able to look the stuff
0:31:01that I've captured already.
0:31:02Look at that in, on my quest, right?
0:31:07'Cause somebody will reverse engineer it
0:31:09or find a way to play it or something
0:31:11and have it be like a 3D, you know, thing
0:31:16in other video players.
0:31:17I imagine that will happen.
0:31:19It's just a heath package, right?
0:31:23With two videos in it.
0:31:24And when you play it back, you only see one of them.
0:31:26Anyway, I did capture some this weekend,
0:31:29just thinking this is gonna, you know,
0:31:33build up a library now for when the Vision Pro comes out.
0:31:36- The 17.2 betas are also showing indication
0:31:39that 3D movies are finding their way to the Apple TV app
0:31:43with a new icon that shows an outline of a Vision Pro
0:31:46with the word, well, the character's 3D overlaid on top.
0:31:50MacRumors are reporting that quote,
0:31:52"3D titles seen in the Apple TV app include
0:31:55"Jurassic World Domination, Pacific Rim, Uprising,
0:31:57"Shrek, Trolls, Warcraft, Minions, The Rise of Gru,
0:32:02"Mortal Engines, Everest, Kung Fu Panda 3, and more."
0:32:05What a ragtag selection of movies there.
0:32:10They're just loading them in, they're loading them in.
0:32:11- People are, they're loading them in, that's it.
0:32:13I expect that at launch, I think somebody said
0:32:16that they saw Hugo in there, and that's a really good 3D movie.
0:32:21But yeah, I would imagine since Hollywood generally
0:32:24has 3D versions of most of their movies,
0:32:25that they will put them in there,
0:32:27because this is an opportunity for them to be seen.
0:32:30And the 3D TV market didn't really take off.
0:32:32So having 3D titles available in Vision Pro
0:32:36seems like a pretty, like, absolutely makes sense to me.
0:32:41- This is making it all feel like the Vision Pro
0:32:44is in fact very close, right?
0:32:46That like, there are now these other bits of the system
0:32:49that need to be put in place.
0:32:51- Yeah, so I said something on Mastodon this weekend.
0:32:54I said that I went to, at the Cal game this weekend,
0:32:57I captured, like I captured, which for me is like,
0:33:00even from when I was a kid, is like the moment,
0:33:02which is when you come through the tunnel
0:33:04and out into the stands, and this field opens up to you,
0:33:07and you're in the canyon, and the hills are in the background
0:33:09and all of those things.
0:33:11And so I captured that in Spatial.
0:33:14And then I did some, like the band and stuff like that.
0:33:17I just did a few, and my whole thought process
0:33:19was capture it now while this is happening.
0:33:22And in the winter, you know,
0:33:24when there are no football games to capture,
0:33:26I will be able to relive this moment
0:33:28and see how it makes me feel and all those things, right?
0:33:30I was like, I like thinking ahead.
0:33:32And somebody on Mastodon replied and said,
0:33:34"You wish winter."
0:33:36And I said, okay, first off, I don't wish anything.
0:33:38I don't care.
0:33:39It's not my job to ship the product.
0:33:41And they backed off and said something like,
0:33:43"Oh, I meant everybody."
0:33:44I'm like, well, that's not what you said.
0:33:45You said you wish.
0:33:46But I am, despite that person,
0:33:51I am actually pretty confident that this is a winter thing.
0:33:55I just, I think it's gonna come sooner than people think.
0:33:59I don't have anything to back that up
0:34:00other than that Apple seems to be continuing to say
0:34:03early next year.
0:34:04And my understanding is the hardware
0:34:05has been done a long time
0:34:07and that they're working real hard on the software.
0:34:09And I would be surprised if it lingers
0:34:12into spring, into the second quarter.
0:34:15I think it'll be earlier than that.
0:34:17Maybe a lot earlier than that.
0:34:18- The thing that surprises me is,
0:34:20I have not seen any indication
0:34:23that developer kits have ever been shipped.
0:34:27- Yeah, that's true.
0:34:28That's true.
0:34:29I mean, if there have been,
0:34:30there haven't been leaks and nobody's talking about it.
0:34:32- And I just don't believe that there is any way
0:34:35that they could be shipping them
0:34:36to individual developers or small companies.
0:34:40And at least the existence of that fact
0:34:42would not have gotten out there.
0:34:44And I have not seen that or heard that from anyone.
0:34:48And so like, that's the surprising thing to me,
0:34:51just because they made people submit those forms
0:34:54so long ago now, right?
0:34:56Like within a couple of weeks after it was announced.
0:34:59- We know they're bringing retail employees into Cupertino.
0:35:03I think that's early next year.
0:35:04- And they're doing more like the developer labs
0:35:06are expanding them across different territories,
0:35:09which is good, like they're doing that, right?
0:35:11But yeah, that has been the surprising thing to me.
0:35:14I still believe it's on track for early,
0:35:15but I'm kind of wondering why they bothered
0:35:18with the developer kit thing.
0:35:20- I mean, maybe they shifted directions
0:35:22and they've focused on expanding
0:35:23those developer kitchen sessions instead.
0:35:25- And maybe the developer kits just come out
0:35:27when the product comes out,
0:35:28because they're being realistic.
0:35:29- Well, that's what I was thinking,
0:35:30is it may just get to the point where they're like,
0:35:32you know what, let's just ship this.
0:35:35Why are we going through this other process?
0:35:36I don't know.
0:35:37And it's possible that it is delayed.
0:35:38I just, I don't get those vibes.
0:35:40I just don't feel like it's gonna be,
0:35:42Tim Cook is still real,
0:35:45sounds real confident about it.
0:35:47- No, I still think it's coming like in January, February.
0:35:50Like I feel very confident.
0:35:51- Early next year.
0:35:53I don't think May is early next year, right?
0:35:57I don't think April is early next year.
0:35:59I think it will be- - I think it's before
0:36:00the spring, like I'm on your board here.
0:36:01- I agree.
0:36:03Yeah, thank you.
0:36:03- Anytime.
0:36:05- Welcome to the board.
0:36:08You're on the Jason board now.
0:36:09That's great.
0:36:10I'm the chairman, but you can be on it.
0:36:11- I'm happy for that.
0:36:12That's no problem with me.
0:36:13- Okay, thank you.
0:36:15It's a diving board though.
0:36:16Bad news.
0:36:17- Sure, okay.
0:36:19It is rumor roundup time.
0:36:21- Woo, yee-haw.
0:36:22- We have so much rumor roundup
0:36:26that we are going to be breaking rumor roundup today
0:36:29into a selection of different products.
0:36:34- Okay.
0:36:35- Is what we're gonna be doing.
0:36:36I'm going to start- - Many rumors roundup.
0:36:38- Many rumors to be rounded.
0:36:39I'm going to start today with iPad and Mac.
0:36:43That's where we're gonna begin.
0:36:45So the Elec has some details about the OLED displays
0:36:50that will power future iPads and Macs.
0:36:54- Okay.
0:36:55- Apple are going to be working with LG display
0:36:57to put together an OLED package,
0:36:59which is custom for them, for Apple,
0:37:01to sit in both the 11 and 13 inch iPad Pros
0:37:05on schedule for next year
0:37:07with a MacBook for 2027.
0:37:10- Just another report of what we've heard before.
0:37:12- Yep. - Really?
0:37:13- Yep.
0:37:14This is like more confirmation stuff, right?
0:37:16This is the interesting part to me.
0:37:18This is new.
0:37:20Is it, I don't know, it's not wall breaking,
0:37:21but the panels that Apple would be using
0:37:24will feature what's called a two stack tandem structure,
0:37:26which features two light emitting layers on the display
0:37:30so that brightness levels are maintained
0:37:32from the like LCD and micro LED.
0:37:35Is it micro LED that's in the iPad Pro now?
0:37:39Or is it mini LED? - Mini.
0:37:40- Mini LED? - Mini LED, yeah.
0:37:42- So they will retain the brightness levels from OLED
0:37:45'cause typically OLED is not as bright.
0:37:48I found out from this
0:37:49that the iPhone uses a single stack OLED.
0:37:52So this must be a harder problem with larger displays
0:37:55to keep the brightness level up.
0:37:56- I think that's right.
0:37:57And the stack, I mean, the LCD panels,
0:38:00what you've got is you've got a screen
0:38:02and then behind it, you've got these individual arrays,
0:38:05these arrays of individual LCDs that are coming on
0:38:09or LEDs that are coming on, not LCDs,
0:38:13LEDs that are behind the LCD panel.
0:38:16And that's how you get the brightness
0:38:18is that they light up more or less.
0:38:20And the more of them, if you had a one-to-one,
0:38:21you'd basically have OLED, right?
0:38:23And that's what micro LED is sort of supposed to be
0:38:26as a technology.
0:38:28So I don't know what they're doing here,
0:38:29but it sounds like maybe they're doing something like this
0:38:31where there's an OLED layer
0:38:33and then below it, there is another light layer,
0:38:36whether it's OLED or whether it's some other LED layer
0:38:41to give it that boost.
0:38:42This is a big deal because maybe, I mean, the iPad,
0:38:46it's important that the iPad be bright,
0:38:49taken outside and taken in all sorts of bright environments
0:38:52is really important.
0:38:53How many times have I said that big, bright,
0:38:56beautiful screen about the MacBook Pro since it came out?
0:38:59If they replaced that with OLED in 25, 26, 27,
0:39:03whenever it is, they can't regress, right?
0:39:06Like you can't go back to being like,
0:39:08"Oh, well, it's OLED,
0:39:09"but it's much dimmer than it was before."
0:39:11I don't think they can do that.
0:39:12And so- - I don't think people
0:39:13would appreciate the benefit of OLED in that case.
0:39:16- Yeah, and OLEDs are dark generally.
0:39:19OLEDs don't get super bright.
0:39:20One of the reasons I don't have an OLED TV
0:39:22in my living room is that my living room has a giant set
0:39:25of windows and French doors on one side
0:39:28and modern OLEDs would probably not be bright enough
0:39:33for me to watch like a football game during the day.
0:39:36So that's a challenge for Apple to solve here.
0:39:38- One of the things I found interesting from this report
0:39:43is like, if this is based on facts, right?
0:39:47Not just, there's not speculation in this part
0:39:49that it is referencing an 11 and 13,
0:39:51because we had wondered like,
0:39:53"Is this time to get rid of the 11 on the iPad Pro
0:39:56"and maybe go bigger?"
0:39:57Especially with something else
0:39:58I'm gonna talk about in a minute.
0:39:59So this is the case, the 11 inch iPad Pro sticking around.
0:40:02I do think that an 11 inch OLED iPad Pro
0:40:05would be a very nice product, right?
0:40:07Like that.
0:40:07It's why I was so disappointed
0:40:09that they never put the new screen technology,
0:40:13the mini LED in the 11, right?
0:40:15'Cause that just felt like it would be so good
0:40:17and would give it differentiation to the air.
0:40:20But while talking about that,
0:40:22let me talk about our next thing.
0:40:23We could talk about differentiation.
0:40:24Okay.
0:40:25- So I did a quick Google and it sounds like
0:40:28the dual stack, two stack OLEDs are really two layers of OLED
0:40:33and that dramatically increases,
0:40:38well, it doubles the brightness of an OLED panel
0:40:40by having two different layers of OLEDs,
0:40:43which is again, light emitting diodes.
0:40:45They are light emitting dots, basically.
0:40:49Two layers of them, you get more light,
0:40:52which means that it gets to be brighter.
0:40:54- It seems hard work to make work.
0:40:56- Yeah, and expensive.
0:40:57- Mark Gurman, yes, Mark Gurman and Ming-Chi Kuo
0:41:00are reporting that it is Apple's plan
0:41:02to overhaul the entire iPad line next year.
0:41:05- Makes sense, makes sense.
0:41:07- Ming-Chi Kuo gave some scheduled details for the products.
0:41:10So Kuo was expecting the iPad Air in Q1.
0:41:13So, and that would update the existing 10.9 model
0:41:18and introduce a 12.9 inch iPad Air.
0:41:20- Right.
0:41:21- The iPad Pro would come in Q2
0:41:24and would feature the OLED displays in an 11 and 13
0:41:27and an M3 chip.
0:41:29The iPad and the iPad mini in the second half of the year,
0:41:33but no details.
0:41:34And with that, the ninth gen iPad
0:41:37that features the lightning port would be removed from sale
0:41:40so that every iPad is USB-C.
0:41:42- Right, so they may be,
0:41:44depending on what's in the 11th generation iPad,
0:41:47that might be cheaper
0:41:50and they get rid of the ninth and the 10th.
0:41:52- More likely the 10th will then kick down the price list
0:41:55and the 11th will be a little bit better
0:41:57and we'll continue to have an old iPad in the mix.
0:42:00- But just the thing that I find interesting
0:42:02is like 11 and 13 inch iPad Air, 11 and 13 inch iPad Pro.
0:42:07Okay, you remember those rumors before
0:42:11that the iPad Pro was gonna get incredibly expensive?
0:42:14- Yeah.
0:42:15- I wonder if this is how they mitigate that.
0:42:17It's like, well, we have a big iPad now.
0:42:20- Yes.
0:42:21- You have to spend the most expensive iPad
0:42:24in order to get a big iPad screen if that's what you want.
0:42:27- Yeah. - Yeah.
0:42:29And it uses, this is something that,
0:42:31when we were talking about iPad a few weeks ago,
0:42:33I talked about the idea that iPads
0:42:35are made by their accessories, right?
0:42:37Like iPads are devices that have that core
0:42:40and then it's all the accessories that go around it.
0:42:42And the reason that you make iPads the same size
0:42:45is not just like, it's so confusing, there's two 12.9s.
0:42:48Well, one of the reasons you do it
0:42:49is that you don't have to make two separate everything
0:42:53for that, right?
0:42:54Oh, this is a new 12.5 inch Air.
0:42:58And like, you can't, like Apple can't, I mean, they can,
0:43:01but they don't wanna make that many different accessories.
0:43:03So if you do a 12.9 Air,
0:43:04guess what it's gonna use for a Magic Keyboard?
0:43:07The existing iPad Pro 12.9 Magic Keyboard.
0:43:11So keeping those things in sync is important for accessories.
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0:45:17So we're gonna continue our rumor roundup,
0:45:21and now we're gonna talk about the Apple Watch.
0:45:24- Okay.
0:45:25- So Mark Gurman had a really big story
0:45:28that was also like history.
0:45:30- That's a great story.
0:45:31- It's like really detailed, really interesting.
0:45:34It's good reporting, but as well as looking backwards,
0:45:36it looks forwards.
0:45:38- With Drake Bennett, we should say,
0:45:40that was a co-buy line.
0:45:41- Thank you very much, I missed that.
0:45:42So I appreciate that.
0:45:44So this is talking about health in Apple's products,
0:45:49but mostly focused on the Apple Watch
0:45:51because it's the product that they focus on most.
0:45:52So I'm gonna get a quote from the article.
0:45:54Apple has an enticing roadmap for 2024,
0:45:57including hypertension and sleep apnea detection
0:46:00for the watch and hearing aid capabilities for AirPods.
0:46:03There are plans to turn its forthcoming Vision Pro
0:46:06into a health and fitness device,
0:46:08and work continues on a paid health coach service
0:46:12that uses AI.
0:46:14So I wanna dig into a couple of these things
0:46:16a little bit more.
0:46:17So hypertension detection is enabled
0:46:21via a blood pressure monitoring system
0:46:23that would be found in the 2024 Apple Watch.
0:46:26I'll go back to another quote from the report.
0:46:28The system is designed to just tell a user
0:46:30if their blood pressure is trending upward
0:46:32and to offer a journal for the user to jot down
0:46:34what was happening when hypertension occurred,
0:46:36to avoid potentially giving a misdiagnosis,
0:46:39the feature will then direct the user to talk to their doctor
0:46:42or check their blood pressure with a traditional cuff,
0:46:44which can provide exact systolic and diastolic measurements.
0:46:49- I love this idea that, you know, there's the proverbial,
0:46:51not to make light of this, but the proverbial like,
0:46:55that really raised my blood pressure moment.
0:46:57And your watch goes, yes, it did.
0:47:00And you're like, yeah, okay, really raised my blood pressure.
0:47:03And I say that as somebody with high blood pressure,
0:47:05I will say that.
0:47:05I am a person who takes medication for high blood pressure.
0:47:09So I get it, I get it.
0:47:11But it's still funny to, I mean,
0:47:13it's a little like the noise thing, right?
0:47:15Where I'm at a football game and it's fourth down
0:47:18and they're going for it.
0:47:19And we're all yelling 'cause our team's on defense.
0:47:22And I get a little thing on my watch that says,
0:47:24it's a little bit loud right now.
0:47:26I'm like, yeah, it is.
0:47:28It's okay, watch, it's okay.
0:47:30So now it's like, somebody said something
0:47:32that really (beep) you up, didn't they?
0:47:35Your blood pressure, maybe check it, yeah.
0:47:38- So I had the other day, my first high heart rate thing.
0:47:43You know where it's like, your heart rate's a little high.
0:47:47I've never had one before.
0:47:49I was watching the Marvels in the cinema
0:47:53and there was a big tense moment, I guess,
0:47:55'cause my heart rate shot up.
0:47:56I'd been to the gym before, so maybe I was like,
0:48:00you know, a little high anyway.
0:48:02But yeah, I've never had one of those before.
0:48:03- That's amazing.
0:48:04- Hey, your heart rate's too high.
0:48:05And I was like, oh my God, Captain Marvel, no, you know?
0:48:09I was obviously very upset.
0:48:11Fun movie, by the way.
0:48:13- I wanna see it tonight.
0:48:14- I had a great time.
0:48:15- See, talk about discourse.
0:48:16There's a lot of discourse out there about,
0:48:17oh, Marvel people are getting tired of Marvel
0:48:18and I guess it didn't open well
0:48:20and there's some negative reviews of it.
0:48:22Every human being I know who I've talked to,
0:48:25who has seen it, has liked it.
0:48:27So I don't know. - It honestly, to me,
0:48:29felt like a return to form, like from a movie perspective.
0:48:32I was like, I had a really good time watching that movie
0:48:35and I cared about what happened, you know?
0:48:37I will also say on a side note,
0:48:39low key season two, fantastic.
0:48:42- Same story there.
0:48:43- Yeah, between these two. - I've heard a lot
0:48:44of discourse about it.
0:48:45And then I talked to my friends about it
0:48:46and they're all like, I really enjoyed it.
0:48:47I haven't watched it yet.
0:48:48- Between these two,
0:48:49I feel like they're getting their groove back, but.
0:48:52- This is a little sub-segment we call the Marvel moment.
0:48:54- Marvel moment inside of "Rouba Round Up."
0:48:56- Inside of "Rouba Round Up," there's a Marvel moment.
0:48:59- This very Marvel too, to actually just,
0:49:01everything's alliterated, you know?
0:49:04- Of course.
0:49:04- In the future with the hypertension,
0:49:10they would want to expand it to provide
0:49:13actual exact numbers.
0:49:14'Cause what this would do is it says,
0:49:15it says that you are trending up,
0:49:16but you're not gonna be able to take a blood pressure reading
0:49:20with this initial technology.
0:49:22- We talked about this with the temping
0:49:24and then it turned out that they use the temperature
0:49:26for cycle tracking.
0:49:27But it's this idea that you can build sensors
0:49:30that do this stuff on the watch
0:49:32and it's very impressive when they do.
0:49:35But the problem is that they can't be as exact.
0:49:39They can't be as precise as a purpose-built device
0:49:44because they just, the shape, the place on your wrist,
0:49:48all of those things feed into it.
0:49:50So instead what you, I think you're gonna see
0:49:52for a lot of the stuff they add to the Apple Watch over time
0:49:54is it's gonna be like trends without details
0:49:58and saying you should look at this
0:49:59with a purpose-built device.
0:50:00If you have high blood pressure,
0:50:02you should have a high blood pressure cuff
0:50:03and you should check that out.
0:50:05And what we can tell you is you're trending up,
0:50:07which can be really valuable.
0:50:09If I'm on my medication
0:50:11and I need to go on a different medication
0:50:13'cause it's not doing its job anymore,
0:50:14if I was told actually your blood pressure is trending up,
0:50:17you should look into that.
0:50:19That is useful, but it's not a replacement
0:50:22for the little thing that is gonna go on your arm
0:50:25and squeeze it or not if you're Johnny Ive.
0:50:28- Or early signs for someone who doesn't.
0:50:32- Yeah, yeah.
0:50:33- Who has not had an issue before.
0:50:35- Yeah, and then your blood pressure is up.
0:50:36That was a reference by the way, apparently in this story
0:50:38that Johnny Ive developed like a squeeze proof
0:50:41hypertension like cuff, weird.
0:50:45Okay, but that never came to fruition.
0:50:50- Not yet.
0:50:50- Yeah, that's right. - You know?
0:50:52- It's just on the shelf,
0:50:53it's on the Johnny shelf in the white room.
0:50:55- They're gonna be like, oh, you can get the Apple blood.
0:50:58- Apple Cuff.
0:50:59- Apple Cuff in case you want it.
0:51:00- No, you know what they'll do is they'll be like,
0:51:01yeah, you know, Belkin makes a blood pressure cuff.
0:51:05- Oh, of course.
0:51:05- It's totally designed by Apple.
0:51:06Oh no, no, you can get it from them.
0:51:08- Look at this, look at this.
0:51:09It came out at the same time, you know?
0:51:11Incredible.
0:51:13- Amazing.
0:51:14- These things like that idea of being able
0:51:16to give those early warnings
0:51:18and we're gonna talk about some other stuff like that
0:51:19in a minute too.
0:51:20It is kind of incredible how they are building
0:51:27this product to make it that you would feel
0:51:32like you need to wear it every day, right?
0:51:35Because if it's going to be there in the background,
0:51:40monitoring your body for signs of an issue
0:51:44that you would otherwise not know about
0:51:45until it's too late or until it's like too far down the path,
0:51:50I mean, who doesn't wanna wear that product, right?
0:51:52Like if I'm like, oh, my blood pressure is fine,
0:51:56I expect at some point in my life, it won't be.
0:52:00If I know that sooner based on something
0:52:03that's continually monitoring my body
0:52:06and could then take the path,
0:52:09like the steps to making a better life choices,
0:52:13like why would you not wanna put that on your arm every day
0:52:16when it's also a watch?
0:52:18Like it's not just like this extra thing I have to wear.
0:52:20Like I don't need to get a cuff
0:52:22and take my blood pressure every day, you know?
0:52:25- I have seen some, this is related, I guess,
0:52:29to that last thing that I said,
0:52:31some discourse about this story that said,
0:52:34because the story points out quite rightly
0:52:36that Apple, when they talk about health, they face a choice.
0:52:40And one of the choices that they faced is,
0:52:44are you focused on well people who may need diagnoses
0:52:49of either they're maintaining their health
0:52:52or they're warned that there's a problem,
0:52:55or do you focus on taking care of the sick?
0:52:58And so the discourse is like, well,
0:53:00of course Apple doesn't wanna take care of sick people.
0:53:04That's all a lie.
0:53:06They just wanna have healthy people
0:53:08feel better about themselves.
0:53:10However, again, I'm gonna say idealism versus reality here.
0:53:14Just pay attention to the history of the Apple Watch,
0:53:17not just from these reports, but like from observing it.
0:53:21It's incredibly difficult.
0:53:22One of the huge reasons that the Apple Watch
0:53:24can't do lots of things is because
0:53:26once you become a medical device,
0:53:28the rules are incredibly specific.
0:53:31And the Apple Watch is meant to be a general use device.
0:53:36When you're sick, you have specific needs
0:53:41and you probably need a specific medical device for it.
0:53:45And they make a lot of medical devices
0:53:46that like connect to the Apple Watch and stuff.
0:53:48But I don't think it's unreasonable
0:53:50for any company like Apple making a product
0:53:52like the Apple Watch to say, look,
0:53:54our goal here is to monitor you
0:53:56and warn you when there's a problem
0:53:57so that you can enter the medical system and get treatment,
0:54:02which might include other devices,
0:54:04including maybe devices that work with the Apple Watch.
0:54:06That's fine.
0:54:07I've got a blood pressure cup that does health kit.
0:54:10Great.
0:54:11But it is, I just, I don't think it's like some conspiracy.
0:54:18I think it's like realism that Apple is not,
0:54:21although they put their toe in the water
0:54:23and the story talks about them thinking about doing
0:54:26like healthcare clinics and trying that
0:54:27and realizing how expensive it is
0:54:29and they can't really do it that way.
0:54:30And they're doing something very similar
0:54:31to what Amazon is trying with their healthcare clinics.
0:54:34I think the truth is Apple is a maker
0:54:36of mass market products.
0:54:38And the Apple Watch is a great example
0:54:39of a product that is on the periphery of medical,
0:54:44but like is never gonna go too far down medical
0:54:48for a few reasons.
0:54:49One of which is because I don't think there's enough space
0:54:52in there to make it a detailed medical device
0:54:55for all sorts of different conditions in one place.
0:54:58And two, the amount of regulation that would be required
0:55:00would be enormous.
0:55:01And three, you can see here,
0:55:02a lot of what they're able to get in that watch shape
0:55:05is not as precise as you'd want for something
0:55:09that is actually actively detailing a medical condition.
0:55:12So I think that explains why the Apple Watch
0:55:17is always gonna be, I think like this,
0:55:19which is they're gonna try their best
0:55:22to do things that will be able to read your wrist
0:55:26and give you a sign,
0:55:28but it's probably never going to be as precise
0:55:31as anybody would want it to be.
0:55:32There will always be a better medical device
0:55:36than the Apple Watch.
0:55:37The Apple Watch is like a leading indicator,
0:55:39a warning light.
0:55:41It's able to track you 'cause you wear it all the time
0:55:43or can wear it all the time.
0:55:45That's really valuable,
0:55:46but it's not a replacement for a sleep study
0:55:50or a heart monitor that you tape to your chest
0:55:53and wear for a week or like any other medical device.
0:55:57Or a proper multi-lead EKG, right?
0:56:02It's never gonna be those things.
0:56:03It is always gonna be like trying to do what it can
0:56:08to give you warnings and information
0:56:10in a limited way on your wrist.
0:56:13- So the sleep apnea detection that you mentioned
0:56:16is enabled via, I guess this is just smarts, right?
0:56:20So it's using sleep tracking and breathing patterns.
0:56:23'Cause there will be things that they will add over time
0:56:25that don't need sensors, right?
0:56:26It's just like we're able to use data.
0:56:30And that's how I imagine that even something
0:56:32like the blood pressure system could get better over time.
0:56:35If you have enough of them out there
0:56:37and you can build a model.
0:56:38- You built a better machine learning model, right?
0:56:40That's exactly what it is.
0:56:41And the sleep apnea detection,
0:56:42I mean, sleep detection is already using
0:56:45a machine learning model.
0:56:46'Cause what does it have?
0:56:47It doesn't have like a sleep sensor.
0:56:49It's got motion sensors and maybe sound.
0:56:53I don't know if it's using sound or not
0:56:54to hear snoring or breathing or whatever, but like motion.
0:56:57And you do machine learning training
0:57:00on these very minute motions
0:57:03and you are able to pull patterns out of that data
0:57:08and see your breathing patterns
0:57:10and see your sleep patterns at it.
0:57:11But it's limited 'cause all it has
0:57:16is those sensors in the Apple Watch.
0:57:18That's it.
0:57:19- What continues on the blood glucose monitoring system?
0:57:23When I was reading about this in this report,
0:57:25like we spoken about it before,
0:57:26this feels like the white whale for them.
0:57:30They're like, if they can get this working,
0:57:33'cause it also sounds like it will be
0:57:35like this hypertension system initially
0:57:36where it's about trends, not readings.
0:57:38But even then, if they can get that
0:57:40and if they can get up and down working, right?
0:57:43You're trending up or trending down,
0:57:45my word, it's gonna be huge
0:57:50if they can get this to work.
0:57:52- Well, again, they're trying to do things like,
0:57:54yeah, monitor your blood sugar.
0:57:55And it may, again, it may not be something
0:57:58that's useful for full on diabetics,
0:58:01but it may be useful for people who are pre-diabetic
0:58:04or might not know that they're pre-diabetic
0:58:06to make changes and understand how their blood sugar
0:58:08is affecting them.
0:58:09- Also just for people to understand their diet more.
0:58:12- Yeah, absolutely, right?
0:58:14Oh, why is my blood sugar up?
0:58:15I just had a bunch of carbs.
0:58:17- Yeah, and everybody reacts differently
0:58:19to different types of foods, right?
0:58:20So it may help you better plan what you're eating
0:58:24and when you're eating it based on you being able to see
0:58:26when your blood pressure's going up and down,
0:58:28sorry, when your blood glucose is going up and down.
0:58:30- Yeah, and again, this is one of those cases
0:58:33where I think that there was some initial idealism
0:58:37inside Apple when the Apple Watch was being developed
0:58:39that they were gonna be like a medical device
0:58:41that just could tell everything.
0:58:43And they've had in the last 10 years,
0:58:45a lot of reality about what is capable,
0:58:47even with the amazing things that they're able to pack
0:58:49in that watch, what they're really capable of doing
0:58:52when all they have is a little tiny window
0:58:54onto a person's wrist.
0:58:56There are incredible limitations to that.
0:58:59And that's just how it's gonna be.
0:59:03So in this case, they're like,
0:59:04are we gonna be able to be a full-on blood glucose monitor?
0:59:09And it's like, well, maybe not, but we're gonna,
0:59:12there's value in what we can do,
0:59:14I think is what they're trying to do.
0:59:15There's a lot of that with the Apple Watch now.
0:59:16- I can't imagine any computer-based system
0:59:19that could be sticking the little thread
0:59:22inside of your arm, right?
0:59:23Like that's, it's in there.
0:59:26- Maybe, that would be quite a breakthrough,
0:59:27but it's always gonna be like,
0:59:29you're looking through skin and a blood vessel exterior
0:59:33to make some judgments about what's going on in the blood.
0:59:36And then there's looking at the blood.
0:59:37And those are, one of them is harder, but again,
0:59:42I'm not, I think that there will be sensor
0:59:44and machine learning breakthroughs that will be amazing.
0:59:48But they're probably not saying,
0:59:50but like there's also a good chance that there are things
0:59:52that you literally can't measure
0:59:54no matter how intelligent you are
0:59:56from sitting on the back of someone's wrist.
0:59:59- But I mean, even with like the models
1:00:00and that kind of stuff,
1:00:01you're still just gonna go and have somebody
1:00:04check your real, check the blood, right?
1:00:05Like you'll get to a point and be like,
1:00:07this doesn't seem right or something's going wrong here.
1:00:10You would go to the doctor
1:00:11and you'd have a blood test done or something, right?
1:00:13Like there's, I think there's something there.
1:00:18And also to round out this,
1:00:21'cause basically I read the quote
1:00:22with touching all the things.
1:00:24The AirPods thing, so AirPods would essentially
1:00:27get the functionality to work as a replacement
1:00:30for an over the counter hearing aid.
1:00:31So they'll build in the functionality to make it like,
1:00:34it could work like a hearing aid,
1:00:35as well as being able to use AirPods
1:00:38to perform hearing tests.
1:00:40- So we talked about this a while ago,
1:00:42the idea that they've changed the way
1:00:43that hearing aids are licensed in the US
1:00:45and it should, at the time it was sort of like,
1:00:47this should open the door for companies like Apple
1:00:50to be able to make things like AirPods work as hearing aids,
1:00:54instead of having to sort of like not do certain things
1:00:58or not make claims or have to sell them as a medical device.
1:01:02Like they can do this.
1:01:03And this was an interesting report
1:01:05because it suggests that that is happening.
1:01:07I hadn't heard before that it was definitely happening
1:01:10within Apple, just that it opened the door
1:01:12for Apple to go in there.
1:01:13And any of us who've used like AirPods and AirPods Pro
1:01:16and all the different processing, like,
1:01:18it's hard not to think about how it could probably
1:01:23have different modes that would be more
1:01:26like a traditional hearing aid.
1:01:28So here we are.
1:01:30And also I'll point out, there are a lot of people
1:01:33who resist hearing aids and there are people
1:01:35who can't afford them, that's an issue,
1:01:38but there are also people who resist them
1:01:40and don't think they need them.
1:01:42And even though they totally need them,
1:01:46they don't think they need them.
1:01:48I've had some relatives like that.
1:01:50This is really interesting, I think, for those edge cases,
1:01:53where it's somebody who doesn't think they need
1:01:55a hearing boost, like, oh, I don't need a hearing aid.
1:01:58But then they say, oh, but Apple's got this thing
1:01:59that makes conversations clearer.
1:02:00And you're like, oh, that sounds like a good idea.
1:02:02Don't tell them it's a hearing aid,
1:02:04it's just making conversations clearer, right?
1:02:07Like, that's great, that's awesome.
1:02:10- And on a separate note, Ming-Chi Kuo is reporting
1:02:13that there are currently no signs
1:02:15that an Apple Watch Ultra 3 is in development.
1:02:18Kuo believes that the likelihood of a new version
1:02:21in 2024 is decreasing and feels
1:02:25that it's maybe because of production issues
1:02:27with the micro LED display that Apple wants to bring
1:02:30to the product within the next couple of years.
1:02:33This is whatever, right, this report, I feel like.
1:02:36The reason I wanted to bring it in
1:02:37is 'cause the question I wanted to ask you is,
1:02:40I wonder if it's all focused on this Apple Watch X instead.
1:02:45And so they're like, here's one watch next year
1:02:48and it's like the brand new watch, I don't know.
1:02:51Or this is nothing.
1:02:53- Or they're taking a year off
1:02:55and there'll be a minor increment to the Apple Watch in '24
1:02:58and then the big watch updates
1:02:59will happen simultaneously in '25.
1:03:01I think they're, look, it's great
1:03:04that the Apple Watch Ultra 2 came into being.
1:03:06You've got one, right?
1:03:07- And I love it, that if you want my long-term review,
1:03:11I adore it.
1:03:12- Yeah, I don't feel like the Apple Watch Ultra
1:03:14needs to be updated every year.
1:03:16It's nice if it is, but I don't feel like it needs to be.
1:03:19And if they skip a year with it,
1:03:20like, Ultra 2 is gonna be fine.
1:03:23It's gonna be fine.
1:03:24And I don't think it says anything
1:03:27about the future of the Apple Watch Ultra.
1:03:29I'm actually pretty convinced
1:03:30that the Apple Watch Ultra is a winner
1:03:32and it's gonna stick around.
1:03:33But yeah, it's possible that this is also like,
1:03:35they're saving up and, you know,
1:03:412025 might be the big Apple Watch year, who knows?
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1:06:31of this show and Relay FM.
1:06:33The final rumor roundup for today is about iOS,
1:06:39some stuff going on on iOS.
1:06:42So first up, we go back to the sheriff, Mark Gurman,
1:06:46who has been, had a couple of reports
1:06:48over the last couple of weeks
1:06:50about the development of iOS 18 and Mac OS as well,
1:06:54of course, but obviously most of this stuff
1:06:56is focused around iOS these days,
1:06:59and kind of what Apple's doing
1:07:01and a little bit of what they're focusing on.
1:07:03So last week in his Power On newsletter,
1:07:06Mark detailed that Craig Federighi ordered a freeze
1:07:08on all new development to focus on bugs and issues
1:07:12in the current internal builds of iOS 18.
1:07:15So they were unhappy at Apple with the quality, I think,
1:07:20of what was being produced, and it was really buggy,
1:07:25which is funny that they're like,
1:07:26how buggy could it be this early?
1:07:29You know what I mean?
1:07:29Like if it's bad, right?
1:07:30Like you'd expect it to be buggy.
1:07:32It must've been pretty bad for them, right, to do this.
1:07:36- And there was that in his newsletter,
1:07:38he mentioned that these, there are usually four milestones.
1:07:41I didn't know any of this, right?
1:07:42We don't get to see much inside the black box at Apple.
1:07:45Nice to know that also in this report, it's very clear,
1:07:48like these are described as being changes
1:07:50that Craig Federighi has made to try to address issues.
1:07:53And I like hearing about-
1:07:54- Since 2019.
1:07:56- That he's been working,
1:07:58'cause he's in charge of software, right?
1:07:59He's been working to try to address some issues
1:08:01that we've all seen on the outside internally,
1:08:04and that's great.
1:08:05So Mark said in his newsletter,
1:08:06like there's these four milestones,
1:08:08and that they tend to be sort of like development
1:08:11and then sort of like fixing the regressions
1:08:12and integration, and then, and they kind of alternate.
1:08:15And it sounds like this was one of those where it was like,
1:08:17wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
1:08:18We can't move on to the next milestone.
1:08:21It's not good enough.
1:08:22So let's spend another week on this milestone
1:08:26addressing all the issues.
1:08:27And so it's not like a big, like press the stop button
1:08:32and cease and all of that.
1:08:34It's more, the way it came across to me is it's more like
1:08:37he wasn't satisfied with it going to the next stage.
1:08:41It didn't feel like they were ready to go there.
1:08:44And like, I am never gonna say, no, no, move on.
1:08:49Don't fix the bugs, right?
1:08:51Like so many, Apple's platforms are so mature right now,
1:08:55and they need, and we all rely on them,
1:08:57and they need to be stable, and they need to work well,
1:09:01and they need to not be full of bugs.
1:09:03- There was a part in this report that I really liked.
1:09:06It says in 2019, Federighi adopted a policy
1:09:09that its division calls the pact.
1:09:12And the pact is we will never knowingly allow regressions
1:09:16in the build.
1:09:16And when we find them, we will fix them quickly.
1:09:20- Yeah.
1:09:21- I like that.
1:09:22- I like it.
1:09:23- Just to think of something.
1:09:24So Mark Herman saying that iOS 18, this is interesting.
1:09:29This seemed weird to me.
1:09:30iOS 18 is gonna be used to sell the iPhone 16
1:09:33because the iPhone 16 is not gonna have a lot of changes.
1:09:36And so they want iOS 18 to be really good.
1:09:38And I kind of, I don't know what I think about that.
1:09:42Like, what is it?
1:09:43Is it gonna be like a bunch of iOS 18 features
1:09:45that are only in the iPhone 16?
1:09:48- Yeah, I mean, maybe.
1:09:49I also don't know how much of this linkage is real
1:09:52and how much of it is Mark Herman's analysis
1:09:55based on his knowledge of the iPhone 16
1:09:57not being particularly anything.
1:09:59I'm not sure if somebody said,
1:10:01"Oh, they want this to be good
1:10:04"because there's nothing in the iPhone 16."
1:10:07Or if he sees they want this to be good
1:10:09and he looks at the iPhone 16
1:10:10and doesn't think that there's anything in it
1:10:12and makes a connection.
1:10:13I don't know that, but that does seem weird.
1:10:15And it does, I mean, lends credence
1:10:17to some of our vibes sometimes where it's like,
1:10:19why is this feature only on this model
1:10:22when it could have been on a previous model?
1:10:24And, you know, although, I mean,
1:10:26it doesn't have to be that, right?
1:10:28Like it could be, and I'm sure it is every cycle
1:10:31that there are new hardware in the 16 that they know about
1:10:34that they're building features for.
1:10:36And that, you know, but it is an interesting note of like,
1:10:39we really gotta sell this because I guess,
1:10:43does Apple feel like one of the biggest selling points
1:10:45of iPhone hardware is the new OS
1:10:47that you can get on your old hardware?
1:10:49I don't know, I don't know.
1:10:50- Well, apparently iOS 18 is being positioned
1:10:54with a focus on AI and machine learning, quote,
1:10:57internally Apple senior management
1:11:00has described its upcoming systems as ambitious
1:11:02and compelling with major new features and designs
1:11:05in addition to security and performance updates.
1:11:08So iOS 18 feels like a big one,
1:11:10there's no real detail in it.
1:11:11But like, if it's meant to be a focus on AI,
1:11:13is it like the chip is needed, right?
1:11:18Like they need more machine learning like cores?
1:11:22- I can't imagine that they're gonna make an ambitious
1:11:25and compelling update that only has features
1:11:27for the iPhone 16, I don't see that.
1:11:31- So this is why I think that I'm not convinced
1:11:34that these two are linked as such.
1:11:37But I like the idea that this is the machine learning
1:11:41and AI release because it does give us all hope
1:11:43that that means they're going to do some things
1:11:46of an intelligent assistant variety,
1:11:50which I think would be great, right?
1:11:53Like Siri needs to be replaced throughout, right?
1:11:58Yeah.
1:11:59- And there was just one other quote that I wanted to read
1:12:02'cause I just, it made me feel bad for Apple engineers
1:12:06for like how confusing their life must be.
1:12:08So last month, the company completed
1:12:10the first internal versions of the updates,
1:12:12including the biggest new features.
1:12:14When Apple gets to that stage known as M1,
1:12:17it usually embarks on work for the next milestone, M2.
1:12:21In this case, the debugging break delayed the start
1:12:23of M2 development by a week.
1:12:25So inside of Apple, they have things called M1 and M2
1:12:29and I guess M3 and M4, and that just must make their lives
1:12:33so complicated sometimes now.
1:12:35- These are the M1 Macs.
1:12:37- They're in M2 stage.
1:12:39- M2, M1, Macs, Macs.
1:12:42Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
1:12:47Going back to the ML thing, like last week,
1:12:49there was that AI pin event thing.
1:12:53- Oh, the humane?
1:12:54- Yeah, humane, yeah, which was not a good marketing video.
1:12:58I would say everybody should watch that video
1:13:00as a good example of how good Apple is at marketing videos
1:13:02because I think it made it a bad job.
1:13:05I think the presentation wasn't very good.
1:13:07It has mistakes in it, but it's more than that.
1:13:09They also, I think they mis-prioritized
1:13:12the way they described the product.
1:13:13And one of the first things they talk about
1:13:16is the color ways of the product.
1:13:18And nobody cares, dude.
1:13:20That's at the end.
1:13:21Why are you saying that first
1:13:23and using those terms in that way
1:13:24and having your cutie names for colors
1:13:27that are just white and black and silver, whatever.
1:13:30But what I, so that's my nutshell of the humane thing
1:13:34is like, I don't think it was,
1:13:36I think the product was let down by the presentation.
1:13:38I think the product is a weird
1:13:40and probably should be part of a larger ecosystem
1:13:42of products, but they got funding to ship a product.
1:13:45So it's a standalone product with its own phone number.
1:13:49Like, all right, whatever.
1:13:50- I will say on this pin, like I watched a video
1:13:53and the whole time I was like, if Apple made this,
1:13:55I would buy this.
1:13:57- Yeah, well, this is the thing is
1:13:58as part of a constellation of devices,
1:14:00having a device that is, I mean, a lot of it,
1:14:04you don't need if you've got an iPhone or AirPods
1:14:07and all that, but like they do also have the thing
1:14:08where it's like an Apple watch,
1:14:11but they also have a camera looking out, which has value
1:14:14and Apple's ecosystem sort of doesn't have something
1:14:16like that that can see around you.
1:14:18But really what I took away from it
1:14:20and the thing that I really wish Apple had
1:14:22and that other platforms had as well
1:14:25is they are basically saying, look, our entire interface
1:14:29is basically a GPT AI.
1:14:31Like that is the whole interface.
1:14:33And we don't even do apps.
1:14:34You just tell it what you want and we get what it is back.
1:14:37I think there's a fundamental mistake that they're making
1:14:39that I understand because they, again,
1:14:41they had to make a product and this is the product,
1:14:43but like their attitude is that people don't like
1:14:46their smartphones, which is bananas
1:14:48because people love their smartphones.
1:14:49Like, ah, smartphones, who has time for them?
1:14:52Like, well, everybody in the human race seems to have time
1:14:54for smartphones friends, but oh my goodness,
1:14:58the attitude they have toward machine learning,
1:15:01AI, chat, talk, information source,
1:15:06that's what I took away and said, I want it, right?
1:15:10Like that's what it's supposed to be like.
1:15:12Alexa isn't like that.
1:15:14Google assistant isn't like that.
1:15:16Siri is certainly not like that.
1:15:18Like that's the dream.
1:15:20And yeah, it hallucinated.
1:15:21It got a bunch of stuff wrong.
1:15:22It got the Eclipse location wrong
1:15:24and they kept it in the video,
1:15:25which is like, what are you doing?
1:15:27But the potential of being able to say,
1:15:32what do I know about this?
1:15:34And it's looked at your,
1:15:35think about it from an Apple perspective,
1:15:37it's got your notes, it's got your contacts,
1:15:40it's got your email, it knows everything about you.
1:15:44It is a personal assistant that you can use to find things
1:15:48that you have in your personal data cloud,
1:15:50but that you don't have in your brain.
1:15:52It doesn't make the connection in your brain.
1:15:53And it can make that connection.
1:15:56That is huge.
1:15:58The potential there is enormous to make our devices better.
1:16:02I don't think it makes the smartphone obsolete,
1:16:05which is sort of what humane is trying to say here.
1:16:07But when we're talking about Apple trying to focus more
1:16:10on machine learning and AI stuff,
1:16:12and I know everybody is trying to do this right now.
1:16:14Like that's what I want.
1:16:16I want these assistants to be so much better.
1:16:19One of the benefits of Apple having this enormous ecosystem
1:16:22that they've built is that their machine learning
1:16:25technologies could consume the content in the ecosystem,
1:16:28in your personal ecosystem and know it.
1:16:32And that would be incredibly valuable
1:16:34if you could act on that.
1:16:35So I don't know how realistic those humane demos even are,
1:16:38and there were a lot of mistakes in them,
1:16:39but like it showed the potential of something like a Siri 2
1:16:44to do this if it works right.
1:16:48And that's the big question is,
1:16:49is this something that happens this year or in five years?
1:16:52Before it's good enough.
1:16:54And Apple's limitations and its conservatism about like,
1:16:56well, if Apple's got a thing that tells you the eclipse
1:17:00is in Australia when it's in America, guess what?
1:17:02Not only they're not gonna put that in their demo,
1:17:04they're not gonna ship it
1:17:05because they don't wanna be embarrassed.
1:17:07So there's lots of challenges going on here.
1:17:10- I just can't believe they didn't check the video.
1:17:13Is this happened in every AI focused product video?
1:17:16- Yeah.
1:17:17- It feels like the obvious thing to do,
1:17:21like check it. - Fact checker.
1:17:23Fact checker.
1:17:24- And also why would you ask questions in a product video
1:17:27that you don't know it can give correct answers to?
1:17:31- I know, never ask a question you don't know the answer to
1:17:34in a marketing video.
1:17:35That is for sure. - Very strange.
1:17:37- Very strange.
1:17:38Anyway, but the potential is enormous.
1:17:39Like again, I don't know if a pin is the right way to go.
1:17:44It does make me feel like that,
1:17:46eventually having something you wear, maybe glasses,
1:17:49even if all there is on them are some sensors
1:17:52as a part of the kind of broader picture.
1:17:54- Realistically, any product like this
1:17:56that's going to succeed needs to have a camera on it.
1:17:59And that camera needs to be able to see what you can see.
1:18:02So it's either physical, like a pin or it's glasses,
1:18:05right, like the Ray-Bans.
1:18:07Because it seems like if you're able to look at something,
1:18:10but what is that?
1:18:12Who does, that's just like, that's cool.
1:18:14- Your phone's in your pocket,
1:18:17so your phone's not looking around
1:18:19and having, and somebody on Mastodon was like,
1:18:22oh yeah, that's gonna be really good video, right?
1:18:24Like it's all, and it's like, well, that's not the point.
1:18:26First off, you are totally underestimating
1:18:28how good stabilization is these days,
1:18:30based on machine learning.
1:18:32You take a wide field and even though it's jumpy,
1:18:35you can stabilize that thing.
1:18:37And it's so valuable for it to see what's around you.
1:18:41It can already hear what's around you with your Apple Watch
1:18:44or your headphones or whatever, but it's an extra layer
1:18:48and it's a piece of sensory information
1:18:50that the iPhone doesn't have if it's in your pocket.
1:18:53So that part is cool.
1:18:55The rest of it I could take or leave
1:18:56because I have an Apple Watch and it's got a speaker on it.
1:19:00And some of their demos where it's like,
1:19:02oh, you can play music to yourself
1:19:03on a thing that's hanging on your pocket.
1:19:05- A sonic speaker.
1:19:07I did like the fact that it required physical interaction
1:19:12to invoke things.
1:19:14- Sure.
1:19:15- 'Cause that is like, there needs to be visuals
1:19:19to the world, right?
1:19:20That like you're doing something.
1:19:22Like I think that's gonna be really important, but.
1:19:24- I do that all the time by pressing the digital crown
1:19:26on my watch.
1:19:28I don't do a lot of hey activations.
1:19:31I do a lot of press the crown and say something
1:19:33'cause I don't like those mistaken activations.
1:19:36I like being able to make a physical thing.
1:19:38But I feel like if you're looking at everything
1:19:40that the humane AI pen is purportedly doing,
1:19:44most of them are covered by a product
1:19:45in Apple's product constellation, but some are not.
1:19:50And that I find that interesting.
1:19:52And then there's the whole machine learning thing,
1:19:54which is like, again, if you buy into the premise
1:19:56and I think this is the beauty of these ML models
1:20:00is like where their secret sauce is.
1:20:03First off being able to search the internet
1:20:04and get good answers to you that are correct
1:20:06is a good one, right?
1:20:07But like so much of it,
1:20:09I was talking to Dan Morin about this last week
1:20:11on the, I think on the Six Colors podcast.
1:20:13Like he's written, what is it?
1:20:15Five novels in the same universe now?
1:20:18And when he's writing those books,
1:20:19he doesn't remember every word that he's written.
1:20:21He's got like a Wiki that he built
1:20:23that I think he's got in Obsidian now.
1:20:26But he was saying, the dream here,
1:20:29and I think he could do that with GPT now.
1:20:31The dream is to upload the contents of his novels
1:20:34and then say things like,
1:20:37what's the color of this character's eyes?
1:20:41And for it to know they're blue
1:20:43or I don't know it, you've never said that.
1:20:45Or he example he gave is,
1:20:47when's the last time this character fired a gun?
1:20:52And Dan doesn't know the answer.
1:20:56And how do you find that even in a Wiki?
1:20:59How do you search for it in manuscripts?
1:21:01You can't find it,
1:21:02but the model may be able to know the answer to that.
1:21:07That's the potential of all of this
1:21:08is looking through all of your Apple Notes notes
1:21:11and all your reminders and all your calendar items
1:21:13and all your contacts and all your email
1:21:15and all your documents that are in files
1:21:18and or are in an API that is connected.
1:21:21And it knows everything.
1:21:23And it's your life, but you may not know the answer,
1:21:27but it knows the answer.
1:21:28That's the promise here.
1:21:30That is amazing if you could get there.
1:21:33- It's like on the GPTs thing,
1:21:34like I saw on Mastodon last night,
1:21:36Matt Burchler built one of those GPTs
1:21:39for writing alt text images.
1:21:41It's like, "That's really smart."
1:21:42- Oh, wow.
1:21:43- So you just in the app, you just upload an image
1:21:47and it just describes it in a way
1:21:49in which the language is good for alt text.
1:21:52And I just thought it was super cool.
1:21:53- Dr. Wave did a thing where he uploaded all the books
1:21:58about the programming language LISP
1:22:01and made a GPT that he can consult
1:22:05about how to program, about programming problems in LISP.
1:22:09- That's cool.
1:22:10Imagine that, right?
1:22:11You're just like, I just put all the books in there.
1:22:13And then all I do is ask, "Hey, how do I do this?"
1:22:17And it knows 'cause it's read all the books.
1:22:20And yes, I mean, there are limitations.
1:22:22It's not gonna be creative.
1:22:23It's gonna be derivative.
1:22:24But the idea is you bought all the books,
1:22:26you own all the books.
1:22:27Maybe you've even read or looked through all the books,
1:22:29but like your puny human brain doesn't know.
1:22:32And you could look at the indexes
1:22:35and you've got eight books and are they well-indexed?
1:22:38And how do you find the problem?
1:22:39Or if you've got them, you could do a search,
1:22:41but then you're searching for terms in PDFs.
1:22:44Like there's just a lot of these very specific things.
1:22:47Like again, for Dan, it's literally just,
1:22:51you've read my novels and made all the connections.
1:22:55You tell me the answer.
1:22:56That's so powerful.
1:22:57That's amazing.
1:22:58I would do that for "Six Colors," honestly.
1:23:00That might be a thing I do is give it an entire,
1:23:02give a GPT, the "Six Colors" archive.
1:23:04'Cause then I'll know like, when did I write about this?
1:23:06Or "Six Colors," stuff that I've written
1:23:09and upgrade podcast transcripts and stuff.
1:23:12And so then I can say like, when did I talk about this?
1:23:16And get an answer that's a lot clearer.
1:23:19That would be awesome. - Apparently the Discord
1:23:21is letting you know, maybe you need a GPT of your own.
1:23:23Leo Laporte did that.
1:23:24- Oh, that was not Dr. Wave.
1:23:25It was Leo Laporte, you're right.
1:23:27LISP.
1:23:28I think old- - If you had a GPT, Jason,
1:23:29you could have said who made that.
1:23:30- Yes, it would know that it was Leo and not Dr. Wave.
1:23:33You're right.
1:23:34It was late, it was masted on.
1:23:35I don't know what I was doing.
1:23:36- It is super interesting to me, right?
1:23:38Like this idea of, what I like about some of these models
1:23:41is taking your information and giving it to something.
1:23:46And then you can search your information.
1:23:48And so like the idea of me saying,
1:23:52here is the RSS feed for upgrade.
1:23:55Go and get all of it, like an event, eventually.
1:23:58Here's every episode, put it through whisper,
1:24:00put the text into the system.
1:24:03And then I can say, I could just ask it questions
1:24:06about things that we spoken about on the show.
1:24:08Like that is, that's awesome, right?
1:24:12That is very powerful.
1:24:13- Oh, that would let us also do like,
1:24:16has the smell talk question been used before?
1:24:18- Yes, yes.
1:24:20- No, this is the thing.
1:24:21And that's the, okay,
1:24:23I know we're blabbering it a little bit,
1:24:25but like that's the magic here is like,
1:24:26it's not, the value is if you,
1:24:31all the information is out there, right?
1:24:33But our tools to search for it now are so limited.
1:24:37And because you can't keep it all in your brain, you can't.
1:24:41So you have the AI do it and it's what they're good at.
1:24:46I mean, all this talk about AI
1:24:48is taking over the world and things like that.
1:24:49I mean, there are interesting questions
1:24:51about what happens to a lot of human labor and all that.
1:24:53But the brilliant thing about them is,
1:24:55they can do things that our brains can't do.
1:24:59And is that not fundamentally what computers are all about,
1:25:02is doing things that are hard for us to do,
1:25:05but easy for them to do?
1:25:06That's why we use them.
1:25:07That's why we use computers.
1:25:09- Going back to the rumor roundup.
1:25:12- All right, thank you, sorry.
1:25:13- I was really happy we spoke about that.
1:25:15- That was like the AI atrium.
1:25:18- Sure, we can watch that one.
1:25:22- AI alcove.
1:25:23We have to, well, it's gotta be,
1:25:25again, all of our little sidebars
1:25:26have to be alliterative now.
1:25:28So the AI alcove.
1:25:30- No, I know, but we'll work that out.
1:25:33Mark Gurman is also reporting that in the first half of 2024,
1:25:37Apple will have a way to comply with EU laws
1:25:40on sideloading of apps.
1:25:42It will be a quote, highly controlled system.
1:25:45And there will also be changes made to both messages
1:25:48and payments apps as a way to comply
1:25:52with further regulation from the European Union.
1:25:55- There's been some code spelunking going on.
1:25:57It looks like what they're doing
1:25:58is that they are putting,
1:25:59and this is the things that Gurman reported earlier this year
1:26:01about how Apple was building things into iOS
1:26:03that would allow them to comply with those EU laws.
1:26:07It sounds like it's very specific,
1:26:08like in a specific region like the EU,
1:26:12and there will be certain APIs
1:26:14that will feed into the system
1:26:15where certain apps will be granted privileges
1:26:19to do things like install apps.
1:26:21And so we don't know all the details,
1:26:24but it looks like they are building a system
1:26:26that they can turn on in places where they have to turn it on
1:26:29that will allow,
1:26:31it's unclear to me whether it's pure sideloading
1:26:33or if they will allow very specific apps
1:26:36to be put in the app store
1:26:38that can be their own app stores.
1:26:42I'm unclear on that part of it, right?
1:26:43Like it sounds like it might be that their approach is
1:26:46in the EU you can apply to Apple to be an app store,
1:26:51and then you need to follow these things,
1:26:53whatever the rules are,
1:26:55and then you can be an app store in the EU only,
1:26:59and then your app has the privilege
1:27:01of installing other apps in the system,
1:27:03versus it just being kind of open the doors to sideloading.
1:27:05Unclear exactly what all is going on here,
1:27:08but with this report,
1:27:11I am more confident that they're gonna open apps
1:27:16to come in by a means that is not the app store,
1:27:20and it's gonna be locked to the EU
1:27:23until other places make this demand,
1:27:25in which case they'll have to put it
1:27:27in all those other places.
1:27:28- I just don't understand why you would go through the work
1:27:32to make things more complicated
1:27:34when you could just open it up everywhere.
1:27:37- Well, because Apple doesn't wanna do it.
1:27:40- I understand, 'cause they want their money
1:27:42at the end of the day.
1:27:43- And I'm a real Pandora's box believer too,
1:27:46that once this is in the system,
1:27:49people are gonna subvert it,
1:27:51people are gonna figure out a ways around it.
1:27:54And also, it's what we were talking about
1:27:57when we were talking about different encryption regulations
1:27:59too, once this works in the EU, it will be a model,
1:28:03and other locations will pass the same ruling,
1:28:06because Apple will no longer be able to say,
1:28:08"Oh no, we can't do it," because they did it.
1:28:11And then on top of that, the real test,
1:28:13and this, I don't know what's gonna happen,
1:28:15although I think it's gonna be fine, is my guess.
1:28:18Apple has also said, "Sideloading is dangerous,
1:28:22and it will destroy everybody's lives,
1:28:24and it's bad, and you can't do it."
1:28:26Well, we'll see, right?
1:28:27I mean, we'll see.
1:28:28In the EU, it'll be a grand experiment.
1:28:30And if they're, and I'm sure Apple, let me tell you,
1:28:33I'm sure Apple will make hay with any bad examples
1:28:36that happen in the EU of sideloading
1:28:38leading to bad outcomes,
1:28:40but it may be that there aren't that many,
1:28:43and it's pretty lean, and they can't really,
1:28:46at which point their stance on sideloading will be exposed.
1:28:49So it'll be interesting to watch,
1:28:51but it won't be the end of the story.
1:28:53It's just gonna, I think, continue from here.
1:28:55- Well, it's gonna be a mess, but you know what, though?
1:28:59It'll be a great episode when it happens,
1:29:01and we can talk about it. - Oh, that's gonna be
1:29:02real interesting. - That's gonna be great.
1:29:03- Should we do an episode from in the EU? (laughs)
1:29:08- Guess we might have to. - Go over there?
1:29:10The Amsterdam episode or something?
1:29:12I don't know.
1:29:13Or maybe, is there an EU?
1:29:14I could go to a Caribbean island
1:29:16that is part of the Netherlands,
1:29:17and that would probably count.
1:29:19I'd probably be in the EU then.
1:29:20- I don't know if that counts.
1:29:23- I think so, or I could go to French,
1:29:24like French Guiana is France,
1:29:26so I could totally go to French Guiana.
1:29:28- Okay.
1:29:29- If I could get there.
1:29:30- The thing that I'm interested in understanding
1:29:32is if they're gonna try and do that thing again
1:29:33where they're like, we're gonna make you
1:29:35submit your account into us so we can get our 30%.
1:29:38- Yeah, right?
1:29:39As long as it's not outlawed, yeah, it's entirely possible.
1:29:42And again, I brought up the App Store thing
1:29:44because that's an interesting angle, right?
1:29:46Which is like, well, look, they said
1:29:47we need to do this in the law,
1:29:48but it doesn't mean that we can't regulate app stores, huh?
1:29:51And then here are all the rules
1:29:53if you wanna run an app store in the EU
1:29:55in order to submit your app, right?
1:29:58They will not do anything that isn't required by the law.
1:30:04They will make it as unpleasant,
1:30:05and just like with those Dutch dating apps,
1:30:08they will make it as unpleasant as possible.
1:30:10- Jambo Hov in the live chat says,
1:30:11"Mike and Jason go to Oktoberfest."
1:30:14- We just missed it, but we could do it next time.
1:30:16Maybe we'll see Eddie and Tim there.
1:30:18- There you go, two of us.
1:30:19We can do our own tour of the year.
1:30:21- I love it.
1:30:22Oh, wouldn't that be something?
1:30:23- Different app in every different country.
1:30:24We'll do a Kickstarter, easy.
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1:31:42of this show and Relay FM.
1:31:44Let's finish out with some Ask Upgrade questions.
1:31:49First one comes from Sasha who says,
1:31:55"I like the style of the charts that Jason makes
1:31:59"on six colors for the earnings reports.
1:32:01"How do you make them?"
1:32:03- Numbers.
1:32:06- Is that like a numbers template though?
1:32:09- No, numbers makes pretty charts.
1:32:12That's why I use numbers.
1:32:13They make the prettiest charts.
1:32:15And so I have a giant numbers spreadsheet
1:32:18with multiple tabs and I've got a charts tab in it.
1:32:21And I built those to use the colors in the six colors logo
1:32:25and each of them represents a particular category
1:32:28except for the money.
1:32:29I just made that dark green 'cause money.
1:32:32Money, money, money, charts, charts, charts.
1:32:34So that's it.
1:32:35And I have now built up some automations around there.
1:32:38So I've got a, I now have a script
1:32:42that has worked for the last few quarters
1:32:43which is great.
1:32:44I have a script that actually looks at the PDF
1:32:47that Apple puts up of their results
1:32:50and pulls the right numbers out of it
1:32:52and puts it on the clipboard
1:32:53and I just paste it into the number spreadsheet.
1:32:55That's awesome.
1:32:56And I have to retype those and risk getting them wrong.
1:32:59That's happened.
1:33:00I typed it in wrong and had to go back
1:33:01and change all my charts later.
1:33:03Like it just does it.
1:33:04That part's great.
1:33:05And then I have another script that outputs them.
1:33:08And the way that works is it generates a PDF
1:33:13and I have this for a shortcut for iOS as well
1:33:17but mostly I do it at the Mac.
1:33:19It generates a PDF out of numbers
1:33:21and it goes to the page that the charts are on.
1:33:23And the beauty thing about the PDF
1:33:25is that it's resolution independent.
1:33:26And so it looks at that page of the PDF
1:33:29and carves it up into,
1:33:31or I think it converts it into an image
1:33:32and then carves it up into little individual images
1:33:34for each of the charts.
1:33:36And so they're all the exact right size
1:33:40and they're saved as pings
1:33:41and they're uploaded to the script,
1:33:43uploads them to six colors
1:33:45and takes the HTML of all of them
1:33:47and puts it on my clipboard
1:33:48so that I can put it in my story.
1:33:50It is, so I've saved myself a lot of time there
1:33:54which is really nice.
1:33:55The one thing that bugs me about it
1:33:57is that images on the web of charts are not accessible.
1:34:02And I don't like that.
1:34:04But the problem is the putting that kind of stuff
1:34:09on the web in an embed
1:34:12or something that is a little more dynamic,
1:34:15those are bad and they just don't work really well.
1:34:19And so I don't love that the charts aren't accessible,
1:34:22but I have not seen any web technology
1:34:25that would make me wanna change how I do the charts
1:34:28into something that would be maybe
1:34:30more dynamically generated and accessible.
1:34:32So I'm always keeping my eye out for that.
1:34:35But for now, anyway,
1:34:37I'm just sort of like willing to go with the fact
1:34:40that I've got a bunch of images
1:34:41and they are what they are.
1:34:44- Do you find it to be a lot of work?
1:34:47Like, are you at least happy
1:34:49with the process you've got down?
1:34:52- It's a lot less work than it used to be.
1:34:53I mean, it used to be,
1:34:54and I did this back at Macworld too.
1:34:56In fact, when I started at six colors,
1:34:58I had to make a new template with new charts
1:35:01'cause those were the Macworld style charts.
1:35:03And I built new charts for the new site.
1:35:06And that took a lot of time
1:35:07and it's taken a lot of tweaking
1:35:09and changed the fonts and changed the colors
1:35:11and changed it.
1:35:11Like I did a lot of things
1:35:13over the course of the last nine years
1:35:15in terms of tweaking them to be more of what I like
1:35:18and got feedback from people
1:35:21about the right ways to do it.
1:35:23I go to Dr. Drang a lot,
1:35:25and Karen Healy.
1:35:28I've talked to both of them
1:35:29about the right ways to present data on the internet.
1:35:32'Cause you know people who are good at this,
1:35:36you talk to them about this stuff.
1:35:38It's pretty well, a well-oiled machine now.
1:35:43I actually added a chart after the earnings this time
1:35:47for next time.
1:35:48There was a chart that I wasn't doing that I wanted to add.
1:35:50So I'm gonna have to make some tweaks to my export.
1:35:53But I'm pretty happy with how it is now
1:35:58because it's so automated.
1:35:59'Cause I don't have to type those numbers in anymore
1:36:01because I don't have to.
1:36:02I used to have to take screenshots.
1:36:03I had to get the exact right zoom for the window
1:36:07and then go through and take screenshots
1:36:08of every single chart.
1:36:10Huh, that was terrible.
1:36:12I don't have to do any of that stuff anymore.
1:36:13So it's a lot easier now.
1:36:14- Mark asks, given the status quo
1:36:18of prerecorded Apple events,
1:36:20do you think they have dedicated filming studios
1:36:22at Apple Park?
1:36:23- I don't know.
1:36:27I don't think so. - It doesn't seem like it.
1:36:28At least some of the places are just like the outside.
1:36:32- Right, there are a lot of things that are just the outside
1:36:34or Steve Jobs Theater.
1:36:36I think that it's probably stuff that they've got.
1:36:40The other reason that I think
1:36:41they probably don't have dedicated studios for shooting is,
1:36:46I mean, podcasts are not as important as marketing videos.
1:36:49But what we've discovered with our podcast studio,
1:36:52and we say we're recording live sometimes
1:36:55from the podcast studio at Apple,
1:36:59I will reveal, if you didn't already know, dear listener,
1:37:02every time, I think every time we've done that,
1:37:04it's been a different place.
1:37:05Maybe one of them repeated.
1:37:07- They just build a new place.
1:37:09- All of them were existing things converted
1:37:12into being a podcast studio for the event.
1:37:15So they reuse, I think, some of the equipment
1:37:17and furniture and stuff,
1:37:19but then they just go back into storage.
1:37:21They're not keeping that stuff standing.
1:37:23It gets turned back into whatever it was.
1:37:26So I think no, I think no to that.
1:37:30I think it's a lot less dedicated than you would think.
1:37:33And we think of Apple as monolithic,
1:37:36but I also think that they use a lot of freelance.
1:37:38I don't think they use a lot of,
1:37:40I don't think they keep a marketing video production team
1:37:44on standby 24/7, right?
1:37:45Like, I don't think that happens.
1:37:47I think they work with production companies.
1:37:49I think they've got some level of in-house,
1:37:51but when it comes time for the big event,
1:37:53they're hiring somebody to do a lot of that work.
1:37:56I think.
1:37:56- I was thinking about this
1:37:58when I saw this question come in,
1:38:00and I just assumed how incredibly disruptive it must be
1:38:04when they're filming.
1:38:05'Cause you never see people in the background.
1:38:09So like, what, do they just say like,
1:38:11no one can come to the office today
1:38:13or no one can be in this section of the building today
1:38:15or something like that?
1:38:17And also the days preceding it
1:38:19where they need to like, prettify the environment?
1:38:22- I do think it's probably weekends.
1:38:24David Schaub in the chat suggested that.
1:38:26I think that there may be some CGI involved.
1:38:29- Working at Apple seven days a week?
1:38:31- Well, yeah, but there's fewer of them.
1:38:32And then I think it's easier to say, stay away.
1:38:36And then I think there's VFX.
1:38:37I think there's probably VFX to keep people out,
1:38:40to make it seem pristine.
1:38:42And they do often use places that are like,
1:38:45the Steve Jobs Theater, right?
1:38:46That's not being used.
1:38:47So that's an area where they can use it.
1:38:50That home set, that might be a set somewhere,
1:38:52but I don't think it's a set at Apple Park.
1:38:53I think it's a set somewhere that they built.
1:38:56And maybe they keep standing or maybe they folded it
1:38:58and they can bring it back from time to time.
1:38:59- They literally own sound stages, so.
1:39:02- Yeah, so there are other possibilities there,
1:39:06but yeah, it's probably very disruptive,
1:39:08especially if they're in,
1:39:09I don't know where that space is that they call the chip lab,
1:39:12but it feels to me like it's an actual working space.
1:39:14It might not be the chip lab.
1:39:17It might not be the center of the chip lab, right?
1:39:20But I think it's probably a real workspace.
1:39:23- I've heard that it's real,
1:39:24but I don't know if I believe that.
1:39:26Like I do, but I'm not convinced.
1:39:29- Well, and like I said,
1:39:30it may be in the area that the chip team uses,
1:39:33but it's an area that they know is photogenic
1:39:36and it gets used in these things.
1:39:38And so it's not like where the real work
1:39:41necessarily gets done or the core work gets done.
1:39:43But I do think that they, yeah,
1:39:46then they set up in there for a week
1:39:47and you just have to not be around or be on the sides
1:39:52and not in the main space.
1:39:53Like I think that they do that.
1:39:54I think it's probably disruptive.
1:39:55If you are somebody who works at Apple Park
1:39:59and has been disrupted or seen the disruptions
1:40:01of shooting these things, let us know, upgradefeedback.com.
1:40:05- You can submit anonymously.
1:40:06That was going into that direction that I enjoyed.
1:40:10It sounded like you were about to give
1:40:11some kind of like legal thing.
1:40:13You know, like if you have been disrupted at Apple Park,
1:40:15we can make a claim on your behalf.
1:40:17Call Snellen Hurley, you know, and we'll take care of it.
1:40:20- That's right, not attorneys and not law.
1:40:23- Last week, Adam Merton says,
1:40:25"Last week you discussed the trend away from all-in-ones
1:40:28towards standalone monitors and computers,
1:40:30but it got me thinking.
1:40:31Do you think that the inclusion of the A-series chips
1:40:34in the studio display and the fact that it is running
1:40:36an operating system will prematurely limit the lifespan
1:40:40of this display versus a typical 5K monitor?
1:40:43Seems like a situation where the screen panel
1:40:45will be perfectly fine over time,
1:40:47but the supporting software or processor
1:40:49might render the display obsolete."
1:40:51I will also just state,
1:40:52we got multiple questions about this
1:40:55where Adam was the only person who did not use the phrase,
1:41:00like, what is it, like when,
1:41:03when you, when Apple were like apparently
1:41:06a killing products, like--
1:41:07- Planned obsolescence?
1:41:08- Planned obsolescence or artificial obsolescence
1:41:10people were saying that they were doing
1:41:12to the studio displays by doing this.
1:41:14So I just wanted to get your opinion on that.
1:41:15What do you think?
1:41:16- No.
1:41:18- Okay.
1:41:19- Let me expand.
1:41:21The, look, it's not doing anything.
1:41:25Like the A-series chip in the studio display
1:41:27is managing stuff that it can manage in 20 years
1:41:30because the software, not having a software update
1:41:33for the A-series chip is not gonna affect that.
1:41:36It's putting something on a screen.
1:41:38There's no UI.
1:41:40It's doing center stage.
1:41:43You know, it's doing camera processing.
1:41:46That's basically all it's doing.
1:41:49And that doesn't require it to be up to date
1:41:52with the latest and greatest.
1:41:53So no, I just, it's not an iOS device
1:41:58and the work that it's doing,
1:42:01'cause this is the truth of any device.
1:42:02Like if you don't update the software
1:42:03and you keep using it, a computer from the nineties
1:42:07that's still running OS 8 and Microsoft Word 5
1:42:12is just as fast today as it was then
1:42:16because it's just doing what it was doing then.
1:42:18Physics haven't changed.
1:42:20It's the same.
1:42:21That's the deal with the studio display.
1:42:24It's just gonna be the same.
1:42:26It will stop getting iOS updates eventually.
1:42:29And all that means is that if there were any tweaks
1:42:31they were gonna do to like the camera or whatever,
1:42:33they'll stop.
1:42:34But I don't like, no, that's a high confidence,
1:42:38no, it's not an issue.
1:42:39- Okay.
1:42:41Yeah, that's a good point that you make
1:42:42that like it's been doing it,
1:42:46like the device has been doing
1:42:48what it's supposed to be doing.
1:42:50It's not like receiving a video signal
1:42:54is going to change in a meaningful way frequently.
1:42:59Like if we go to like 8K 120, right?
1:43:02Like maybe it's gonna need something else,
1:43:05but to just continue doing what you've, yeah.
1:43:07But to continue doing- - It's a new panel,
1:43:08but this, the conversation here,
1:43:11I mean, 'cause in the chat they're saying like,
1:43:12oh, but they would still need to make A13s.
1:43:14Yeah, but that's not the conversation.
1:43:15The conversation is I buy one of these,
1:43:17is it gonna be obsolete faster
1:43:19'cause it's got an A13 in it or whatever?
1:43:21And the answer is no, 'cause it's got it.
1:43:23And it's doing what it's gonna do.
1:43:24The panel's not gonna change,
1:43:25panel's not gonna get upgraded.
1:43:27Maybe they'll tweak some of the center stage stuff.
1:43:30Maybe they won't, but like it's irrelevant.
1:43:32And I'll also point out something that came up in the chat,
1:43:34which is all of these things have embedded systems.
1:43:38This one's just a different kind of embedded system.
1:43:40And this goes back, I think a little bit
1:43:42to all of us who are tech nerds
1:43:45who know about the inner dealings of Apple and its chips
1:43:48and what it's embedding in its monitors and all of that.
1:43:51But like all these displays have stuff in them.
1:43:54This is just a little bit weirder and more forward,
1:43:56but like in the end, they're gonna last forever
1:43:59because the panel, and if the electronics fail, sure.
1:44:02But the, I had a TV where the electronics fail,
1:44:05like that does happen,
1:44:07but it's not gonna change the lifespan at all.
1:44:11It's a display, that's it.
1:44:13It's all it ever will be is what it is now.
1:44:16They could stop updating the software now
1:44:19and that would be fine.
1:44:20- All right, next question.
1:44:23And I'll ask a great segment today.
1:44:25Comes from Elliot, last name withheld.
1:44:29- Kalen, probably.
1:44:31- Well, I don't know because I doubt it
1:44:33because of the way that this is about to go.
1:44:34So Elliot, last name withheld says,
1:44:37I've been working my way
1:44:39through the flophouse back catalog.
1:44:41And tonight I was on episode number 264,
1:44:44the emoji movie live from five years ago.
1:44:47- Live from San Francisco.
1:44:49- Maybe, I don't know, we'll find out.
1:44:50At the end of the show,
1:44:52the hosts were taking questions from the audience
1:44:54when a person identifies himself as Jason,
1:44:57last name withheld,
1:44:58and starts asking a question about movie sequels.
1:45:00I do a double take.
1:45:01The voice sounds familiar.
1:45:03I rewind to hear the name again.
1:45:04Could it be?
1:45:05Is that my podcast buddy, Jason Snell?
1:45:08- Elliot, you got me.
1:45:10- I'm Jason, last name withheld
1:45:12from the emoji movie live episode of the flophouse,
1:45:14my favorite podcast of all time.
1:45:16Recorded live in San Francisco.
1:45:17And we went and I asked a question
1:45:20that I don't remember the answer to.
1:45:22I should go back and listen.
1:45:23It was basically about sequels.
1:45:25And I wanted to know what was a great movie
1:45:27that you loved that never got a sequel,
1:45:28but you felt like it could have had one.
1:45:30I thought that was a clever question.
1:45:32I don't know if they had answers or not.
1:45:34They didn't seem to understand my question.
1:45:35I was very excited to talk to them.
1:45:38I got to meet them afterward and it was great.
1:45:42But yeah, that's me.
1:45:43That's me.
1:45:44Love the flophouse and I got to go see them live.
1:45:46And I hope when they come back to San Francisco
1:45:49again real soon guys, right?
1:45:51Right?
1:45:52That I will get to go again.
1:45:54- Are they doing tours again?
1:45:56'Cause I know they were doing like.
1:45:58- Yeah, they just did two shows in LA.
1:46:00So they're back on the road.
1:46:01- Live podcasts, quite the thing.
1:46:05- It's happening.
1:46:06- If you would like to send in a question of your own
1:46:09for Ask Upgrade on a future episode,
1:46:11just go to upgradefeedback.com
1:46:13and you can send us in your questions there,
1:46:15but we'll see your feedback and your follow up.
1:46:17If you want to find Jason's work, go to sixcolors.com.
1:46:20You can hear his shows here on Relay FM
1:46:21and at the incomparable.com.
1:46:23You can hear me on Relay FM too
1:46:25and check out my work at cortexbrand.com.
1:46:27We're on Mastodon.
1:46:28Jason is @jsnell on zeppelin.flights.
1:46:31I am iMike on mike.social.
1:46:33You can also find the show as upgrade@relayfm.social.
1:46:37You can watch video clips of the show on TikTok,
1:46:39Instagram, YouTube, and also full length video episodes
1:46:44published to YouTube as well.
1:46:45We are @upgraderelay and all of those.
1:46:48We're on Threads.
1:46:49I am @iMike, I-M-Y-K-E.
1:46:52Jason is @jsnell, J-S-N-E-L-L.
1:46:55Thank you to our members who support us of Upgrade Plus.
1:46:58Thank you to our sponsors,
1:46:59the fine people over at Oracle, Factor,
1:47:02ZocDoc, and ExpressVPN
1:47:04for their support of this week's episode.
1:47:05But most of all, thank you for listening.
1:47:08Until next week, say goodbye, Jason Snow.
1:47:12Come on, petty 'em.
1:47:13(upbeat music)
1:47:16(upbeat music)