00:00:50 ◼ ► released their press release about the Vision Pro coming out, thereby requiring us to make the,
00:00:56 ◼ ► I think, unprecedented decision to remove things from the episode and record new information to
00:01:04 ◼ ► insert to explain what happened, which is ouch. That's, uh, I did offer on my way out the door
00:01:09 ◼ ► to the airplane to, like, hop on with you and do, like, a quick back and forth, and you're like,
00:01:12 ◼ ► "I got it, I got it taken care of, it's fine." We caught about, um, 25 minutes from the episode,
00:01:19 ◼ ► and I know that people might out there might be like, "Oh, but why?" because it was us trying to
00:01:25 ◼ ► guess when the pre-orders might go up, and we spoke about it for a long time, and so it really didn't
00:01:31 ◼ ► make any sense, but luckily, I will say luckily it did actually happen before we published. That's the
00:01:36 ◼ ► one good part. Yeah. Uh, you know, because the way I feel about it, if something happened Monday
00:01:40 ◼ ► night or Tuesday morning, well, there's nothing we can do about it. We're always recording Monday
00:01:44 ◼ ► release on Mondays, that's it, but it's so rare that we record in advance like that, um, but we
00:01:49 ◼ ► did, and it came back to bite us, as these things sometimes do, but we're going to talk all about
00:01:53 ◼ ► the Vision Pro today. Got a lot of stuff to cover. Uh, if anything, I'm actually happy that we've had
00:02:04 ◼ ► last week. But we will start out with a Snell Talk question, as we do. First one, the only one,
00:02:11 ◼ ► this week comes from Brian, who says, "Do you make an effort to complete your Apple Watch stand goal?"
00:02:17 ◼ ► I mean, this is definitely in the category of things I think we've talked about before,
00:02:22 ◼ ► but the answer is no, mostly no. Every now and then, I think I turned all these alerts off,
00:02:28 ◼ ► but there was a, there was a time when I would get an alert or I would be paying attention,
00:02:32 ◼ ► I would realize I was one hour away from the stand goal, and I would get up and walk around and move
00:02:37 ◼ ► my arms and stuff, trying to go over the edge. But you know, I don't, I turned all those off.
00:02:42 ◼ ► I don't even get alerts about making goals or that you're about close to your goal anymore.
00:02:48 ◼ ► I just don't do it. I have stopped, I've gotten, I don't know when I did that, I don't even remember,
00:02:53 ◼ ► but like, I got off the Apple Watch nagging. I'm, this may not be a surprise because what we learned,
00:03:00 ◼ ► what we've learned over the last year especially, and like, talking to Stephen Hackett when he was
00:03:06 ◼ ► here, I am apparently somebody who is trying to keep things minimal in a lot of ways, in my,
00:03:15 ◼ ► in my Mac interface, you know, and stuff like that. I think this is in line with that, the idea
00:03:20 ◼ ► that I don't want to get bugged by stuff. And the Apple Watch, as much as part of what it's trying
00:03:27 ◼ ► to do is bug you, prod you to do better and all of that, I think my life is improved by getting less
00:03:36 ◼ ► of the bugs. I just kind of don't want the noise in my life. In fact, I'm going to write this up.
00:03:42 ◼ ► I mentioned it here, I think, or on some podcast and I haven't, I don't think written about it in
00:03:47 ◼ ► six colors, but one of the things that I've done that I really am happy with, I know we talked
00:03:52 ◼ ► about some of this, when I'm curling, when I'm at the curling club, I'm in a focus mode that's
00:03:58 ◼ ► based on location. That means that when I'm out on the ice, I don't have random texts coming in
00:04:02 ◼ ► from people who think, you know, Jason will see this and respond whenever. And I would see them
00:04:07 ◼ ► and I would respond with like a pre-baked Apple Watch reply. And then they would be like, oh,
00:04:13 ◼ ► Jason's engaging. I'm going to continue this conversation. It's like, I don't want to talk
00:04:16 ◼ ► to you right now. So I just have the focus mode and I don't see it until I'm off the ice.
00:04:20 ◼ ► And similarly, I used to get notifications that would light up my phone that I can see through
00:04:26 ◼ ► the glass while I was in the shower. And now I have a thing, I have a, when it connects to my
00:04:31 ◼ ► Bluetooth speaker in the shower, it puts me in do not disturb. I want to turn off the speaker when
00:04:36 ◼ ► I leave the shower, it exits do not disturb. And my life is better for it because I don't need to be,
00:04:43 ◼ ► I just don't need to be bugged in these contexts. So I'm really kind of leaning into that idea that
00:04:48 ◼ ► there are times when it's okay for almost everybody. I mean, I've got my family that can
00:04:54 ◼ ► break through and stuff, but there are times when I just want to be unreachable. Like I don't, and
00:05:01 ◼ ► you know what? I think a lot of it is from people who expect, like when I text people or send people
00:05:05 ◼ ► messages and mention them in Slack or Discords, I'm expecting it to be asynchronous. I'm expecting
00:05:10 ◼ ► it to be like, when they see this, they can respond. And I don't think it's rude for people
00:05:16 ◼ ► to send me texts. I really don't. Or push notifications, which is the other thing in the
00:05:20 ◼ ► shower where it's like, oh, here's a headline from a news organization. It's so distracting to get
00:05:26 ◼ ► that the screen lights up. Sometimes there's an actual audio disconnect if I've set the
00:05:30 ◼ ► notification wrong. I don't need it. I don't want it. So I've really tried to do more of that.
00:05:36 ◼ ► I'll catch up with you when I'm done with what I'm doing. Similarly, when I'm running, I have it set
00:05:41 ◼ ► now that my fitness focus turns on when I'm in a workout and I've set the fitness focus to
00:05:50 ◼ ► similarly prevent almost everybody from breaking through other than my family. Because although
00:05:55 ◼ ► it's nice to hear from people, when I'm running, all it's going to do is distract me. And if I do
00:06:02 ◼ ► try to reply, I'm going to do a canned reply or I'm suddenly tapping out a reply on my Apple Watch.
00:06:06 ◼ ► You know what? They can wait. They don't need to know that I'm running. They can wait until
00:06:11 ◼ ► 20 minutes later and it'll be fine. So it's a long way to go to talk about Brian's question.
00:06:17 ◼ ► But I mean, because the simple answer is no. But the more complicated answer is I'm trying to drop
00:06:22 ◼ ► the noise out of my life from these. Because I like their times. I mean, most of the time,
00:06:26 ◼ ► the Apple Watch pushes notifications to me. I do want that feature, but I don't want it all the
00:06:32 ◼ ► time. There are times when I don't want it. And so I'm happy that Apple has made these abilities,
00:06:37 ◼ ► these focus modes. That's how I use focus modes basically is there are moments when I do not want
00:06:42 ◼ ► to be bothered. What about recording when you're recording podcasts and stuff? Do you have any kind
00:06:48 ◼ ► of focus mode for that? Yeah, all my automations now fire off a recording focus mode that similarly
00:06:57 ◼ ► strips back my limits who can contact me. Same reason. Like, again, if their close family needs
00:07:05 ◼ ► to do it, but if it's some other person, they're not going to get my attention. Yeah. Right. So
00:07:13 ◼ ► like if I'm messaging you about upgrade, but you're recording the incomparable, you shouldn't
00:07:17 ◼ ► be notified about that. You're busy with something else and it can wait, right? Like that's, yeah,
00:07:21 ◼ ► I think that's great. I really hope that. There's very little that anybody is going to send me that
00:07:25 ◼ ► needs my reaction while I'm recording a podcast. And if it is, it's going to be when it's an
00:07:30 ◼ ► emergency. And I know the people who are going to send me something that it's actually an emergency
00:07:36 ◼ ► that I need to deal with immediately and stop what I'm doing. And it's basically my wife and kids and
00:07:41 ◼ ► mom, and that's it. Nobody else gets through. So if you really want to get through during a podcast,
00:07:47 ◼ ► I guess, um, see if Jamie can send me something. Yeah. Well now I know if I ever really need you,
00:07:53 ◼ ► I've got to get to Jamie. Get to Jamie or Lauren or Julian. I just picked Jamie cause I thought it
00:07:59 ◼ ► was funny. Anyway. Uh, yeah. So that's it. I'm just trying to reduce the noise. Like, like at the,
00:08:07 ◼ ► how do our devices know that there are times when I'm happy to get a push notification about
00:08:12 ◼ ► a, you know, an alert or something and how, and when not to, and especially for things like texts
00:08:21 ◼ ► or mentions in Slack where it's like the right thing to do is send me the text, right? The right
00:08:27 ◼ ► thing to do is send me the text. But as a human being, I react to the text with, oh, I've got to
00:08:32 ◼ ► field this. Now I've got a thing weighing me down. I've got a to do item. I was like, oh no, somebody
00:08:36 ◼ ► sent me a text. I need to respond. I need to look at it. And I'm very happy to have the computer say,
00:08:41 ◼ ► you know, be, be like my receptionist basically. And be like, Nope, sorry, Jason can't be bothered
00:08:51 ◼ ► If you would like to send in a snow talk question to help us open a future episode of the show,
00:08:57 ◼ ► just go to upgrade feedback.com and tick snow talk and send it in. We'll appreciate it. And thank you
00:09:02 ◼ ► to everybody that does. I have a couple of follow-up items for you, Jason. This first one
00:09:09 ◼ ► comes from Matt who said, I heard you mentioning Massimo. This is the company who Apple are currently
00:09:14 ◼ ► fighting with over the blood oxygen sensor. Uh, I heard you mentioned them being based out of Irvine,
00:09:19 ◼ ► California on the last episode. I worked just down the road from their headquarters and thought it
00:09:24 ◼ ► was interesting that their headquarters was used as stock industries in the first Iron Man movie.
00:09:29 ◼ ► And I looked at a picture of it. They have this kind of like round glass area. And I think that
00:09:33 ◼ ► was where they had the press conference where he's like, I am Iron Man. I think it was nice. So
00:09:38 ◼ ► that's fun. Little tidbit. Shout out to Irvine. I, I, I have spent so much time in Irvine because
00:09:43 ◼ ► my in-laws live there and have lived there as long as I've known my wife that, um, I, I wish I could,
00:09:50 ◼ ► here's, here's the Irvine tidbit I'll leave, which is, uh, our friend David Sparks. I've,
00:10:07 ◼ ► shout out to Orange County. Speaking of Massimo, Apple's work around for the blood oxygen sensor,
00:10:14 ◼ ► uh, with the patents that are being, um, what is it accused to be infringing on? Disputed. Disputed.
00:10:21 ◼ ► Disputed. Well, whatever. Yes. That Apple, Apple is supposedly infringing on Massimo's patents. So
00:10:26 ◼ ► they, they need to find a way. There was all this big story about like, Apple's got a software
00:10:30 ◼ ► workaround here. Oh, can't wait to see how cleverly Apple has decided to work around Massimo's patents.
00:10:35 ◼ ► Drum roll. So the workaround in software is just disabling. They just, they just, they disabled it.
00:10:44 ◼ ► So any new watch in the US will have this device turned off. This has been accepted by the US
00:10:56 ◼ ► customs agency. And I'm going to read now from chance Miller at nine to five Mac, who's been like
00:11:01 ◼ ► friend of the show, the guy reporting on this, saying we're also, this is a quote from chance.
00:11:06 ◼ ► We're also still waiting on the decision from the US appeals court on Apple's request to pause
00:11:11 ◼ ► the Apple watch ban throughout the entire duration of the appeals process. That decision could come
00:11:16 ◼ ► as soon as today. The ITC has already voiced its opposition to Apple's request. So there you go.
00:11:24 ◼ ► Uh, the moment it looks like if you, there may, I don't know if it's how it's actually going to
00:11:29 ◼ ► roll out or not, but like, this is the work around the mystical work around that had been discussed
00:11:35 ◼ ► was get rid of the feature, which is not great. Can you tell me, I saw you talking about this on
00:11:43 ◼ ► Mastodon. Uh, there's going to be some, there's some improvements coming to Mac OS that will make
00:11:54 ◼ ► Yeah. So Apple has a lot of security policies. We've established this and Apple Silicon has
00:12:00 ◼ ► brought some more security approaches to Mac OS and it has had some very weird fallout, including,
00:12:06 ◼ ► I think most notably that audio hijack tool we use all the time, uh, just to step you really quickly
00:12:13 ◼ ► for those who don't know how you install audio hijack the way the way you do it is you install
00:12:21 ◼ ► audio hijack and then it says, Hey, I need you to restart and hold down the power button
00:12:32 ◼ ► and then go into recovery mode and then go to a menu in recovery mode that is set secure.
00:12:44 ◼ ► It's like the security utility. And then in there you have to say allow, and it's scary,
00:12:49 ◼ ► allow security, uh, lower security levels, scary, like lower secure. Why would I want to be less
00:12:57 ◼ ► secure? All to allow audio hijacks extension to run. So then you reboot and you come back,
00:13:04 ◼ ► you know, finally our long nightmare is over and audio hijack says, great, now we're going to add
00:13:10 ◼ ► the extension and, and, and you need to approve the extension. And then after you approve the
00:13:17 ◼ ► extension, the system says, got a reboot. So you reboot again, a normal reboot this time.
00:13:28 ◼ ► And so we've rebooted into, into the security system then rebooted again to get back to the
00:13:35 ◼ ► level where it says to reboot a third time. So three reboots all in all to get you to functional
00:13:41 ◼ ► audio hijack. It's not great. Good news in Rogue Amoeba's end of the year wrap-up blog,
00:13:58 ◼ ► it's clear they've been working with Apple about this because how could they not? Apple put in this
00:14:02 ◼ ► thing in 2020 that costs, costs, uh, three reboots and a scary security dialogue that has to be
00:14:10 ◼ ► lowered in order to get their product to work and multiple ones of their products. I think sound
00:14:16 ◼ ► sources like this too, like a bunch of their products are like this and not just, it's all
00:14:19 ◼ ► these Rogue Amoeba products. Um, the good news is if you install more than one, the work is done
00:14:24 ◼ ► and you can just install the rest and you don't have to reboot more times. Um, so clearly they've
00:14:29 ◼ ► been talking to Apple about this. And the other reason that I think that Apple is involved here
00:14:33 ◼ ► is because if Rogue Amoeba could fix this themselves, they would have fixed this in 2020
00:14:50 ◼ ► a new permission appeared in security and privacy. And I know what you're saying out there. Oh boy,
00:14:56 ◼ ► more permissions to grant on Mac OS. And yes, I, yeah, I know, I know, but it's the, uh,
00:15:04 ◼ ► the screen recording is now called screen recording and system audio. And there are two separate
00:15:09 ◼ ► things. And one of them is screen recording and system audio. Bartender uses that keyboard. Maestro
00:15:14 ◼ ► uses that. It's the thing that you use if you're trying to capture screens and shot users is going
00:15:20 ◼ ► to use this too. Like they're another developer that I saw that saying that they can get rid of
00:15:23 ◼ ► that permission now. Yeah, exactly. Cause it's like, you get to look at the screen, right?
00:15:28 ◼ ► Like keyboard, my starting to look at the screen. Cause I literally have macros where it looks at
00:15:31 ◼ ► something on the screen and then clicks on it. Right. Like, but there's new now in 14.2,
00:15:42 ◼ ► None of my apps are using that, but spider sense tells me that that's what's going on here is that
00:15:51 ◼ ► apple has, and maybe, maybe it's buggy or something, you know, maybe they need to wait for an update
00:15:56 ◼ ► or something like that. And that's why this is not out, but it sure looks like apple has built
00:16:02 ◼ ► in a brand new permission that is, Hey, capture system audio, which does that sound familiar?
00:16:08 ◼ ► That sounds a lot like rogue Amoeba. So it sounds like there's a long way of saying it sounds like
00:16:14 ◼ ► something between apple doing stuff and rogue Amoeba being able to adapt it. And presumably
00:16:18 ◼ ► some other apps as well, that according to rogue Amoeba's blog post, you'll be able to install
00:16:24 ◼ ► audio hijack without even doing an administrator password. Apparently all you have to do is say,
00:16:30 ◼ ► allow amazing. And that a couple of their apps that do extra hinky stuff. So like sound source,
00:16:38 ◼ ► which is routing sounds around and loopback, which is creating like virtual inputs. Those apparently
00:16:50 ◼ ► app that's replacing their old helper app. They had ACE and now, and this is arc, but it's no reboot
00:16:56 ◼ ► required. It's literally just, you have to install the helper and you move on. So, uh, the good news
00:17:04 ◼ ► is one of the worst user experiences for a set of apps on that go S will go away. And the bad news is
00:17:11 ◼ ► it took three or four years for this to happen, but at least it sounds like it's about to happen
00:17:17 ◼ ► from my perspective. I don't care how long it took. I'm just happy they did it. Like this was
00:17:21 ◼ ► not, I actually thought that we were more likely going to get to a point where this was, would not
00:17:25 ◼ ► be possible anymore because it seemed like it had gotten so complicated. Like I was nervous
00:17:30 ◼ ► that Apple would just like restrict him, restrict him, restricting right. Until it was like,
00:17:35 ◼ ► you know, the walls are closing in until they just closed completely. So I'm really happy that,
00:17:41 ◼ ► you know, we have a lot of criticism, especially for the, whoever is deciding on the way to
00:17:45 ◼ ► permissions work on Mac iOS these days. Um, but this is a triple thumbs up from me, right? Like,
00:17:53 ◼ ► great. Make this easier. It makes it easier for users. It makes it easier for the developers
00:17:58 ◼ ► because they don't feel like they're having to like try and find a way to prove to their users
00:18:03 ◼ ► that they're not actually a virus. Uh, and so like, you know, the steps in which they explain
00:18:09 ◼ ► to you like developers have to explain to you to do this, like especially with Rogamiba, they do
00:18:13 ◼ ► the best they can, but if you don't know the app, it sounds sketchy as hell, right? Right. It sounds
00:18:20 ◼ ► like something that a hacker would do to take over your computer. Now I need you to reboot and lower
00:18:24 ◼ ► your security systems. Wait a second. Yeah. I just want to recall something from YouTube. Why have I
00:18:30 ◼ ► got it? Yeah. Is this some sort of scam? Yeah. And the answer is no. So what the line that Paul
00:18:36 ◼ ► Kofasas, the CEO of Rogamiba put in his story is there's no doubt that this has deterred people
00:18:43 ◼ ► from using our products. And I think that's absolutely right. I, there's no doubt at all,
00:18:54 ◼ ► the app store communication thing in, uh, in the EU, which may be coming very soon, right? This
00:19:01 ◼ ► idea that they're going to allow sideloading and, and the line that I think I gave last year was
00:19:06 ◼ ► this app may kill you, right? Like the idea is you can turn it on, but you're going to have to get
00:19:11 ◼ ► through scare text that says, don't turn this on, right? Turning this on, you may die. So don't.
00:19:19 ◼ ► And then you go turn it on and it's like, are you sure you want to die? Yes. Okay. It's on right.
00:19:25 ◼ ► Well, this is that, this is that for the last four years for Rogamiba is, uh, we, we, we swear we're
00:19:33 ◼ ► honest here when we tell you that it lowers your security and it, it won't actually lower your
00:19:37 ◼ ► security. And we're not actually a, well, the other thing that it implies for technical people,
00:19:44 ◼ ► doing a kernel extension and it's like, it's not, it's using the mechanism to install a kernel
00:19:49 ◼ ► extension, but the, but it's not, it's just the only mechanism that Apple allows that lets them
00:19:54 ◼ ► install their thing, even though it's not doing what the mechanism is designed for. Like, it's
00:20:00 ◼ ► just ridiculous. So anyway, this is, it's something that is, I think materially hurt their business
00:20:04 ◼ ► for three years. Uh, and it's bad for users. And this is a tool that I, a bunch of tools I
00:20:08 ◼ ► recommend to people, and then this gets inflicted on them. So I'm going to be very happy when, uh,
00:20:28 ◼ ► There is no shortage of helpful AI tools out there in the world, but using them means switching back
00:20:34 ◼ ► and forth between yet another and another and another tool. So instead of simplifying your
00:20:40 ◼ ► workflow, it ends up just becoming more complicated. Unless of course you're using Notion.
00:20:45 ◼ ► Notion combines your notes, your documents, and your projects into one space that is simple and
00:20:51 ◼ ► beautifully designed. You can save time and write faster by letting Notion AI handle the first draft,
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00:21:02 ◼ ► tedious tasks like summarizing meeting notes or finding next steps. Notion AI does all of this
00:21:08 ◼ ► and more while freeing you up to do the deep work. Over the last six months or so, I have been getting
00:21:13 ◼ ► more and more and more of my work done in Notion. So we have the Cortex brand stuff all going on in
00:21:18 ◼ ► there and the work I'm doing with my new assistant is all in Notion as well. One of the things that
00:21:22 ◼ ► I'm working on is an email newsletter for Cortex brand and one of the things I love about Notion
00:21:27 ◼ ► is I've been writing out like what I want to say and then just all within the same document that
00:21:32 ◼ ► I'm looking at, I bring up Notion AI and like can you help me improve my grammar here and it takes
00:21:36 ◼ ► care of it for me and what I really love is it will then put all of that text below what I've
00:21:40 ◼ ► written and then I can refer to the two and make my own decisions about what I want to keep and
00:21:45 ◼ ► what I want to change based on what the grammar thing or what maybe something I want to say like
00:21:50 ◼ ► I really love that it's all within the same document so I can just very easily pick and
00:21:55 ◼ ► choose what I want while still making having all of the benefits of AI. I don't have to go out to
00:21:59 ◼ ► a web page go out to a different app it's awesome. The fully integrated Notion AI helps you work
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00:22:10 ◼ ► is used by over half of fortune 500 companies out there and teams that use Notion they send less
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00:22:26 ◼ ► for free when you go to notion.com/upgrade that is n-o-t-i-o-n.com/upgrade to try the powerful
00:22:33 ◼ ► easy to use Notion AI today in that URL or lowercase letters but you know that and when you use our
00:22:39 ◼ ► link you're hoping to support our show that is notion.com/upgrade our thanks to Notion for their
00:22:44 ◼ ► support of this show and all of Relay FM. All right so we got to talk about the Vision Pro.
00:22:51 ◼ ► I want to do this in two chunks I want to talk about the nuts and bolts of the announcement
00:22:58 ◼ ► then I want to talk about the reaction that I've seen online that I'm sure you've seen too just
00:23:06 ◼ ► the wide reactions that have been going on in the past week so very quick it's February 2nd is when
00:23:13 ◼ ► the product will be available in Apple stores and online with pre-orders this Friday January 19th
00:23:19 ◼ ► so it was just a press release there was no event of any kind this is something we and you were
00:23:23 ◼ ► questioning a lot on the last episode no video or anything as of yet just a press release do you
00:23:29 ◼ ► have any further reflections on that approach? Well I know that it was in the spectrum of things
00:23:38 ◼ ► I thought were possible I know it was at the other end of the spectrum from what you expected
00:23:43 ◼ ► which is interesting because when we talked about this last week you were like it's going to be an
00:23:47 ◼ ► event and they're going to invite people and I was like I don't know because it's a you know
00:23:52 ◼ ► the reason you invite people is to try it out and trying it out is not something that you can do when
00:23:59 ◼ ► you invite a huge number of people to one place at one time because they we learned in June they have
00:24:04 ◼ ► to spread that out so I thought it would be a different kind of approach I didn't expect it to
00:24:09 ◼ ► be this minimal but it does go it is in line with what we talked about about the fact that the the
00:24:14 ◼ ► supply is so limited that Apple wants people to know that it's doing this I think to a certain
00:24:22 ◼ ► degree but it doesn't want to drive demand too much because they don't have supply so they don't
00:24:29 ◼ ► they don't want nobody they don't want to scare people off and say don't buy it but honestly if
00:24:33 ◼ ► they did nothing I think that they would people would buy this right because there's the whole
00:24:37 ◼ ► group of people who are really into this who know about it and want it so they so they didn't add
00:24:45 ◼ ► for example they didn't add during the national championship game the college football national
00:24:49 ◼ ► championship game Monday night they didn't add that was a reference to their that that hello
00:24:56 ◼ ► ad with the iPhone where it's clips from movies where people answering the phone that was at the
00:25:00 ◼ ► Oscars this was people putting goggles on basically or glasses and and that was an awareness ad right
00:25:08 ◼ ► that was really just like get ready in fact I think that was what it said get ready there's
00:25:13 ◼ ► a new thing coming from Apple and the fact is we all think oh but we've known about this since June
00:25:18 ◼ ► but one of the lessons I learned really early on in my journalism career my Apple journalism career
00:25:23 ◼ ► especially was nobody remembers anything especially people who don't care or don't care that much so
00:25:28 ◼ ► like people who subscribe to Macworld magazine didn't really care or know or or let it stick in
00:25:36 ◼ ► their mind what the features of Mac OS were going to be when they when they got announced in June
00:25:42 ◼ ► because you would tell them in September or October and they'd be like whoa new features
00:25:48 ◼ ► because until it's real until they can put it on their device it's it's just you know yeah whatever
00:25:54 ◼ ► and and they they either don't pay attention or even if they do that it just passes through their
00:25:58 ◼ ► mind so vision pro is the same way so Apple says ah get ready they're starting to re-engage it's
00:26:03 ◼ ► going to be interesting to see where it goes but in terms of the effort put into the press material
00:26:10 ◼ ► which going out to the press right the press is paying attention and the press does have a memory
00:26:15 ◼ ► it was not zero effort right like it's a new press release but it's a lot of stuff we knew
00:26:21 ◼ ► it's almost everything is from June there are some new tidbits in there they talk about games
00:26:28 ◼ ► they're more third-party details it's very funny because a lot of Apple's PR they just like to list
00:26:34 ◼ ► developers with software like you'll get it's like oh it's a new MacBook Pro and it will call out by
00:26:39 ◼ ► name certain games that they're pushing or certain apps it's a very it was Resident Evil now it's
00:26:46 ◼ ► Death Stranding and uh Liza P and like Fantastical is in the press release right like they they will
00:26:53 ◼ ► cherry pick some things that give the impression of third-party support and utility in ways that
00:26:59 ◼ ► they find valuable and so like there are some games mentioned in vision pro that where they
00:27:04 ◼ ► really didn't touch vision pro gaming other than to show like an iPad game before there are some
00:27:09 ◼ ► games that are mentioned but mostly it's the same stuff and media and what really got me is assets
00:27:15 ◼ ► like the pictures and stuff are I mean I didn't check I didn't do a like full-on conspiracy board
00:27:24 ◼ ► they may not be all exactly the same images from June but if not they're from the same sessions
00:27:29 ◼ ► they're literally of the same models in the same locations and that surprised me but maybe that's
00:27:36 ◼ ► just Apple's attitude is like we're just going to replay our introduction because we're still
00:27:40 ◼ ► introducing and there's no reason for us to do a second shoot obviously they like those materials
00:27:45 ◼ ► right they didn't look back six months ago and say you know I really didn't like that photo shoot
00:27:50 ◼ ► let's do another photo shoot that didn't happen they did that photo shoot and that's what we've
00:27:54 ◼ ► got it's the same imagery and all of that so that I find that really interesting you know obviously
00:28:01 ◼ ► there's going to be because we've seen it now with the that commercial there's going to be some
00:28:06 ◼ ► launch stuff presumably they are seating reviewers you know early embargo reviewers with this in fact
00:28:13 ◼ ► there was a report that they're like reviewers will get a demo and then a week later they'll
00:28:17 ◼ ► get another demo and only then will they be sent a review unit which is kind of wild but okay sign
00:28:23 ◼ ► me up by the way apple sign me up I'm ready so am I yeah yeah mike is too but me first but mike is
00:28:31 ◼ ► good too uh anyway well I I that's so there's gonna be hype and there's gonna be buzz but like it's
00:28:38 ◼ ► interesting to see apple like how the apple manages it and our first glimpse of it is this announcement
00:28:43 ◼ ► which was as low-key as it gets I've seen a lot of people say things along the lines of this
00:28:51 ◼ ► announcement means that apple is not confident in this product I'm not sure if I agree with that
00:29:00 ◼ ► sentiment I see how someone could get there but I I don't I don't draw the cause and effect there
00:29:08 ◼ ► because of something like the fact that this is supposedly so little which we'll talk about later
00:29:12 ◼ ► on in the episode some reports and that but it's the line they have to walk because they don't want
00:29:15 ◼ ► to not talk about it and they do want to show some level of confidence in it that's why they put it
00:29:20 ◼ ► in an ad that is a direct reference to the iphone ad and they put it in one of the most watched tv
00:29:26 ◼ ► events of the year the college national championship game as the debut they took a big like they did
00:29:32 ◼ ► with the oscars right they took a big stage and and debuted that ad at the same time this product
00:29:39 ◼ ► is not priced in a way that regular people are ever gonna buy it so if they create demand most of
00:29:44 ◼ ► most of the demand they create through marketing is immediately going to hit on the price and that's
00:29:48 ◼ ► going to be the end of the equation right that they hit on the price and they're like oh forget
00:29:51 ◼ ► it that's ridiculous I thought it would be 500 right and it's like well we all know that it's
00:29:55 ◼ ► not but remember all of our we went over it like years of trying to grapple with the reports on the
00:30:01 ◼ ► price and it was still higher than that like imagine experiencing that entire journey in one
00:30:06 ◼ ► second right that's what people who don't know about vision pro but are curious are going to
00:30:11 ◼ ► discover it's like it costs what and they're going to walk away so you kind of you know you're walking
00:30:16 ◼ ► this line where you want people to be aware of it but you kind of want to set the expectation that
00:30:20 ◼ ► it's for the future apple's working on the future and this is the first one and I think if your
00:30:25 ◼ ► apple ideally you want to create an attitude that is sort of like oh apple's doing this interesting
00:30:29 ◼ ► thing maybe this is the future maybe I'll buy one in a few years when it's cheaper and better
00:30:35 ◼ ► because you know technology that's always what it is I think that's what they're going for
00:30:39 ◼ ► I'll also say that those reactions are exactly what we said would be the reactions last year
00:30:46 ◼ ► which is the fact that this product is not available in volume is going to mean that it has a
00:30:53 ◼ ► rollout that is unusual for apple products and it is going to allow people to say uh-oh because
00:30:59 ◼ ► you could also say uh-oh apple didn't sell even a million of them in its first year and somebody
00:31:04 ◼ ► will write that story it's a flop and it's like apple couldn't make a million of them in its first
00:31:09 ◼ ► year right that that's the truth of this is is it's not it's an overpriced product for the market
00:31:14 ◼ ► because most people just don't want a 3500 thing but they're making so few of them that demand will
00:31:20 ◼ ► probably still outstrip supply so it's a weird it's just a weird place so I'm not surprised people are
00:31:26 ◼ ► having takes like that but I think that I think that those are people who want to have those takes
00:31:30 ◼ ► and the weird circumstances allow them to have them but it's entirely predictable. So the storage
00:31:37 ◼ ► starts at 256 gigabytes I've considered this a bit of a heartbreak that there are going to be more
00:31:43 ◼ ► expensive models I wish they would have just had one model we don't know any more about that yet
00:31:48 ◼ ► we don't we don't know any more about it I I'm surprised by this I'm surprised that they're
00:31:55 ◼ ► doing SKUs for storage because like how much more complexity does this product need if you don't
00:32:01 ◼ ► have many of them why are you splitting them up you know like the apple tv how do you communicate
00:32:07 ◼ ► why people need storage on this 256 gigabytes I mean is it you can load it full of movies is it
00:32:14 ◼ ► you can load it full of apps is there I mean I've always sort of assumed that this is a very cloud
00:32:19 ◼ ► focused product yeah you could use it on an airplane and and but you know apple's got a
00:32:23 ◼ ► whole system of caching cloud files and stuff like that I don't know I don't know like is it a
00:32:29 ◼ ► computer right like am I going to use it like a computer so therefore I need good storage on it
00:32:34 ◼ ► like I don't know now they've given me options I feel like I feel like I can't go with 256
00:32:40 ◼ ► about I need to see what the prices are and I don't know what they are uh there are questions
00:32:45 ◼ ► around prescriptions so like you know how the lenses are going to work if you have prescription
00:32:49 ◼ ► lenses you need to provide a prescription so after you if you place a pre-order you then upload a
00:32:55 ◼ ► prescription to apple yes I like that they're doing it that way around not making like the rush
00:33:00 ◼ ► for ordering that there will inevitably be like right you're right so you just place your order
00:33:06 ◼ ► and then deal with the stuff nor are they going to Zeiss and saying hey go over to Zeiss's website
00:33:12 ◼ ► because that's what happened with my my meta quest right is that I had to go to zenny optical
00:33:17 ◼ ► and then and they had a link to the product but then I'm on zenny optical and I have to order
00:33:21 ◼ ► through them and here apple sounds like they're going to be like we will take your prescription
00:33:26 ◼ ► and and then and then the Zeiss lenses and there must be some sort of hand out there because I
00:33:30 ◼ ► think Zeiss is licensed to do prescription eyewear right so they they use their partner but they've
00:33:34 ◼ ► they seem to have tried to streamline it as much as possible so that you don't have to make two
00:33:39 ◼ ► separate orders and all of that even though they may come as two separate orders you don't have to
00:33:43 ◼ ► make all of that maybe you do I mean we don't know but my imagining here is apple will do everything
00:33:50 ◼ ► within the law to make it that it's as smooth as possible to order the lenses that go in it
00:33:58 ◼ ► for prescription lenses and that may also be a reason by the way why international rollout is
00:34:04 ◼ ► more complicated is because in every market they need to deal with potentially limitations of
00:34:12 ◼ ► prescription eyewear and if they need a partner in that market and some markets they might not
00:34:16 ◼ ► but some markets they will and in the us you know you have to in prescription it's a prescription
00:34:23 ◼ ► you know prescription eyewear there is there is regulation around this so but that's why they're
00:34:28 ◼ ► using Zeiss as a partner when you're making your order you need a device around with face id
00:34:34 ◼ ► that you will use to assess which light shield that you're using I'm expecting that there's
00:34:39 ◼ ► some kind of thing where you could order on a mac and it will prompt you on your iphone to use the
00:34:44 ◼ ► updated apple store app intriguing so they're gonna have to have that around you maybe well
00:34:50 ◼ ► if you're on a mac you don't have a face id update so yeah they would they would just say order this
00:34:54 ◼ ► from your iphone this goes back to a thing that I was told in June at the tent when we were waiting
00:35:00 ◼ ► for or actually when I was getting my face scanned and I think afterward a pr person said to me
00:35:05 ◼ ► the apple store app will get updated to do the face scan yeah and that as apparently already
00:35:12 ◼ ► happened that there was just an app update yeah that enabled this so there you go I think that
00:35:18 ◼ ► you can order it on a mac though but like then it says it says have your iphone or ipad nearby so
00:35:24 ◼ ► like you can order on your phone of course but if you order on a different machine that you would
00:35:29 ◼ ► provide the scan on a separate device it's the way that I read it but hmm yes we'll find out uh I saw
00:35:36 ◼ ► Joanna Stern did a good post of just like detailing what's in the box so the solo knit band which is
00:35:41 ◼ ► the one that we know right the one that was on all the images with the frills and the little dial
00:35:46 ◼ ► then this one's called the dual loop band which is one that has a top strap now interestingly when
00:35:53 ◼ ► we tried it out we had a combo of the two so it was the solo knit band and then a dual loop that
00:35:59 ◼ ► went over the top and I'm hoping yeah that you we will be able to combine the two but we'll see
00:36:06 ◼ ► I don't know my understanding is that the solo knit band is more for shorter sessions 30 minutes
00:36:14 ◼ ► or whatever and that the dual loop band and is and is easily adjustable and the dual loop band is
00:36:20 ◼ ► more complicated to adjust you sort of have to slide things around and all that may like take
00:36:24 ◼ ► it off the solo knit band has the dial you can kind of like leave it on your head and just move
00:36:29 ◼ ► it around and do the dial to adjust it dual loop band more complicated but apparently better for
00:36:36 ◼ ► a long duration use if you're going to use this for two hours or four hours or whatever that the
00:36:40 ◼ ► dual loop band is a better choice for that because it will be provide more support and and I will
00:36:47 ◼ ► we'll see but that's what I've been hearing you also get your light seal light shield you get two
00:36:54 ◼ ► cushions for it I don't really know what that means I'm assuming maybe it's like the soft part
00:36:59 ◼ ► that you can take out and clean I guess the actual part that touches your face but I genuinely don't
00:37:04 ◼ ► know my understanding is the cushions too are a it's a like fit thing where it's like see how this
00:37:10 ◼ ► fits okay put on another cushion and now see how this fits that you're you're basically the
00:37:14 ◼ ► light seal is whatever large or or small and then there's like the the cushions are there to give
00:37:21 ◼ ► you other ways to fit it because they're they're concerned about fit and they know that some people
00:37:25 ◼ ► will need more cushion and some people will need less you get a cover for the front front of the
00:37:32 ◼ ► device a polishing cloth amazing oh boy I have some important breaking news about the polishing
00:37:38 ◼ ► cloth because I know the the sickos out there care about the polishing cloth I love it we
00:37:48 ◼ ► and the vision pro is a different polishing cloth than the one that people know and love
00:37:53 ◼ ► that you use for a display watch out for these things on ebay my sources this is why people
00:38:00 ◼ ► have recognized me as a universal inside source about apple which is not a thing they recognize
00:38:04 ◼ ► me for is I come with the knowledge I come with the deep knowledge that there are different
00:38:10 ◼ ► polishing cloths people so this is specific for this device this cloth I well I don't know that
00:38:18 ◼ ► it's possible that there have been different polishing cloths all along in history it's
00:38:25 ◼ ► possible that I don't know but um yes word has reached me from important sources very important
00:38:31 ◼ ► sources that the polishing cloth and the vision pro isn't the same polishing cloth as in some other
00:38:36 ◼ ► products yep can't reveal my sources mike but boy we're breaking the news here watch out for the
00:38:42 ◼ ► rumor blogs you know we're going to be all over them today they're going to reblog me and they're
00:38:46 ◼ ► going to be like jason snow has yeah that'll be a heck of a headline polishing cloth might be
00:38:50 ◼ ► different and then also the battery and all the cables that you need of course will be in the box
00:38:55 ◼ ► uh you mentioned media so apple of claim have said over 150 3d movies will be available along with
00:39:03 ◼ ► you mentioned games they they reference something I've not seen before spatial games so there will
00:39:08 ◼ ► be games on apple arcade that you play just like a window floating out there right but then there
00:39:13 ◼ ► are also games which are spatial games uh and they named game room what the golf and super fruit
00:39:19 ◼ ► ninja which is such a great name and that one I can imagine will be a lot of fun fruit ninja and
00:39:24 ◼ ► I'm intrigued about what the golf because the team who behind what the golf have a vr game called
00:39:30 ◼ ► what the bat which is on quest which is really fun or yeah meta quest which is really fun and
00:39:37 ◼ ► I thought that they would bring what the bat here but they didn't they've made a golf game it seems
00:39:40 ◼ ► called what the golf which is a special game see what that's all about yeah I mean what the golfs
00:39:45 ◼ ► the game that they've done but they're apparently doing a spatial version of what the golf which
00:39:48 ◼ ► yeah I mean they've done very good what the car what the car and then they did what the bat on
00:39:53 ◼ ► on meta quest so they've got some experience doing doing uh ar and vr games and I don't know whether
00:39:58 ◼ ► these spatial games are going to be like immersive games or are they like you have it scans your room
00:40:05 ◼ ► and it puts a golf hole somewhere and you have to do something I don't know I mean you got to assume
00:40:10 ◼ ► you can I think we can easily assume what super fruit ninja is right like you're swiping your
00:40:14 ◼ ► hands and you're cutting the fruit right like yes like chopping them yeah who knows I mean I'm
00:40:20 ◼ ► intrigued about these though because you know like these these are games that they can't really take
00:40:25 ◼ ► but they can't take advantage of a controller like I'm really intrigued to see what the specific
00:40:30 ◼ ► gaming story looks like on this device that that is an intrigue to me yeah and we saw a clip from
00:40:39 ◼ ► avatar the way of water we did on our in our demo so you know 3d movies is a thing that has been
00:40:44 ◼ ► obviously going to happen and uh so this is more kind of confirmation of that that apple is going
00:40:51 ◼ ► to be loading up you know 3d content in the store I imagine there'll be more over time because
00:40:55 ◼ ► there are so many 3d theatrical releases that could be put on the device as well and it's a
00:41:02 ◼ ► pretty nice experience um I think uh yeah like um the super mario's super mario brothers movie
00:41:10 ◼ ► which was a big hit I think is going to be the demo movie in stores so we'll see that'd be fun
00:41:22 ◼ ► the avatar movie until I can watch it on this device because I hadn't seen it and I saw that
00:41:29 ◼ ► clip and I was like yeah I'm not gonna watch that until yeah I can I can watch it in this way it's
00:41:35 ◼ ► gonna be amazing same so Minchi Quo's reported that there is by his estimate an availability
00:41:44 ◼ ► of 60 to 80 000 units for launch day so if you want to get a launch day unit you will be one of
00:41:52 ◼ ► somewhere between 60 to 80 000 and I see that number I don't know if that's enough I don't
00:41:58 ◼ ► know if it's too many it's impossible to know at this stage I think like is that a lot is that not
00:42:04 ◼ ► a lot we just we have no idea right that's almost 300 per retail store if they got evenly distributed
00:42:11 ◼ ► we know they're going to be a lot of online orders yeah like is that yeah I don't know this is going
00:42:16 ◼ ► to be the mystery it's like what's the volume like I feel pretty confident that they're going
00:42:20 ◼ ► to sell every one of these that they make if they're they will at least this year right but
00:42:24 ◼ ► but right I would imagine that there's an enormous amount of demand from people who want to be on the
00:42:29 ◼ ► cutting edge and developers alone that there will be enormous demand up front is enormous more than
00:42:36 ◼ ► 80 000 I don't know that's the thing right like I agree with you my guess is yes my guess is yes
00:42:42 ◼ ► okay my guess is yes I believe that they will sell all of them on the first day I'm just not sure if
00:42:49 ◼ ► that's within two minutes or six hours yes I think that's a good question I would imagine that if you
00:42:56 ◼ ► hear about this the next day you won't be able to order one but and they may hold some back for
00:43:04 ◼ ► retail right like that might happen but we'll see I don't know but that might not include very say
00:43:12 ◼ ► this 80 000 the way that quote was said it's like that's that first day because then they've got two
00:43:17 ◼ ► weeks to send more in right they can keep making them they can and have them in for launch day
00:43:22 ◼ ► probably will yeah keep making them I think that's one of the benefits of the time period that
00:43:27 ◼ ► they've given themselves because from like when you can order them to win their um all right but
00:43:34 ◼ ► then also maybe not all of this 80 000 have even made it to the us yet right so that might be the
00:43:39 ◼ ► other thing that's true mark german has some details about the try on experience that people
00:43:44 ◼ ► will be able to book in for from launch day onwards so mark describes it as a 25 minute
00:43:49 ◼ ► long experience that begins with scanning your face for the seal with the phone as well as using
00:43:54 ◼ ► a device to check a prescription of glasses this is what we did this is how it worked for us yeah
00:43:59 ◼ ► we saw the drop you drop drop the glasses in and it checks and my understanding and you're like
00:44:05 ◼ ► well wait a second but I have to order my glasses from Zeiss no there will be a selection of uh
00:44:14 ◼ ► of glasses of optical inserts behind the scenes in the store and they will try to do the closest
00:44:23 ◼ ► match and there's apparently a limit where they'll be like we don't have a good match for you but
00:44:28 ◼ ► they will try and I think the way this is going to be interesting for people who are buying in
00:44:31 ◼ ► the store because if you want the experience you want to go out the door ready to go you're going
00:44:36 ◼ ► to need to take the the adjusters that are in the store and they may not be as close as what you get
00:44:42 ◼ ► from Zeiss because Zeiss is going to make it to your specific prescription so you might have to
00:44:47 ◼ ► decide do I want to walk out with a vision pro but not really use it for a week or whatever it is
00:44:54 ◼ ► until the Zeiss lenses come or do I want to take a prescription that's not quite right that's going
00:45:00 ◼ ► to be an interesting question but yeah that's how it works is they are going to stock I don't want
00:45:04 ◼ ► to know how hard this is going to be on Apple store employees to have a large number of uh
00:45:11 ◼ ► of different prescriptions behind the scenes but they're apparently going to do that so that's how
00:45:16 ◼ ► it's going to work in store they drop your glasses in they read the prescription and then they go and
00:45:21 ◼ ► find the closest match there's a slight detail from this uh Mark Gorman does say that like if
00:45:26 ◼ ► you buy online for in-store pickup and if you buy online too there is an element of like with the
00:45:32 ◼ ► Apple watches where they're like putting your pack together right so like they get your order and it's
00:45:37 ◼ ► like right you need this light seal you need these glasses so like even from like store assembly you
00:45:43 ◼ ► don't like what will be picked up in a store if you order it to a store it's not like your box is
00:45:47 ◼ ► sent right it's like there's a bunch of boxes that they're putting together and putting them in a bag
00:45:52 ◼ ► lots of vision pros lots of light seals lots of cushions and lots of lenses in the back so going
00:45:59 ◼ ► back to the demo experience it seems again like pretty close to the experience that we had in June
00:46:05 ◼ ► so there'll be like an onboarding and interface explanation and the person that you're doing it
00:46:09 ◼ ► with will have an ipad where they can see what you can see which we saw they kind of walk through the
00:46:14 ◼ ► eye tracking with people you'll look at images both regular ones panoramic ones and spatial images
00:46:20 ◼ ► then there's a demo of safari and the productivity apps then immersive video so this feels very much
00:46:25 ◼ ► like what we did yeah my understanding is it's it's a it's a version of what we did sort of
00:46:30 ◼ ► slimmed down to be 20-ish minutes in the headset yeah in a presumably 30-minute appointment and
00:46:38 ◼ ► mark says quote the goal of the demos is to give users an experience that's compelling but not
00:46:43 ◼ ► exhausting ideally leaving them itching for more yeah and we know we we went through that experience
00:46:53 ◼ ► but a very a very similar thing where they're getting you know they're getting some some
00:47:02 ◼ ► and then they have you know a movie and a panorama and a 3d you know a spatial photo right like all
00:47:11 ◼ ► the stuff that we saw i would say if you listen to this show book yourself in for one of these
00:47:17 ◼ ► you should do do yourself a favor it's great experience no no no money required right you
00:47:22 ◼ ► should book in for this 30 minutes it's gonna these are gonna be hard to come by because i don't know
00:47:26 ◼ ► how many of these slots they're gonna have available because keep in mind it's one customer
00:47:30 ◼ ► for 30 minutes it's literally one-to-one because it's a customer and an apple store employee with
00:47:36 ◼ ► an ipad to see you know like it was with us to see what you're looking at so that they can help you
00:47:42 ◼ ► and they guide you through the process it's pretty i mean we had two people right we had a
00:47:45 ◼ ► guider and also like a pr keeper and both of those people were were in the room with us but this will
00:47:50 ◼ ► be a one-to-one of a store person and you for half an hour so it's pretty this is pretty labor
00:47:56 ◼ ► intensive for apple for for those people arguing that apple uh isn't really behind this product
00:48:01 ◼ ► this is pretty serious stuff mark german also says the belkin are making a battery clip which i just
00:48:06 ◼ ► love we're gonna clip those things to our belts baby gonna be walking around but this is sensible
00:48:11 ◼ ► because like that thing needs to go somewhere and it can go in your pocket or if you don't want to
00:48:16 ◼ ► put it in your pocket you could maybe clip it to your belt or clip it to something clip it to a
00:48:20 ◼ ► belt even if you weren't planning on wearing one sure somebody else's belt if you want you could
00:48:25 ◼ ► but they just have to follow you around if you're going to move yeah yeah it'll be awkward this
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00:50:31 ◼ ► this show and relay fm so now i want to talk about the reactions and i've tried to pick out some
00:50:41 ◼ ► things that i've been seeing online pick out some things from places i ask people in our discord to
00:50:46 ◼ ► share me their hot takes and i took the kind of idea there because i've said this to a few people
00:50:50 ◼ ► privately i'm going to say on this show this press release i'm pretty sure people are losing their
00:50:56 ◼ ► minds over it and it is really interesting to me to see the variety of takes that i've been coming
00:51:04 ◼ ► across online i don't know if i have ever seen the amount of angst and doubt and anger so wide
00:51:12 ◼ ► in our community is i have from reactions to this product and it which is surprising to me because
00:51:18 ◼ ► it's not like we didn't know this was happening and so like it's weird to me now to see what i've
00:51:23 ◼ ► been seeing so much i've seen people say it's a 3500 dev kit like i've been seeing that so much
00:51:31 ◼ ► and we'll get into some of the reasons why people are saying that but i think for me personally like
00:51:36 ◼ ► a top line thing about this is like i'm seeing a lot of people saying oh i can't justify the cost
00:51:42 ◼ ► of this that's fine like just don't buy it like it's okay well to not buy this right yeah i mean
00:51:48 ◼ ► we've we've talked about this before there are people who get really mad when apple makes a
00:51:54 ◼ ► product that they don't want yeah like deeply offended like apple should only make products
00:52:00 ◼ ► and we've seen this in all sorts of ways right where where there's a a new mac laptop and people
00:52:05 ◼ ► get really mad because it's not the one that they want it's a different one it's like ah that macbook
00:52:09 ◼ ► here and it's like it's it's a very weird bit of psychology right of people who are upset that
00:52:15 ◼ ► apple also makes products that they don't want or even weirder that apple makes products they
00:52:20 ◼ ► actually do want but not in you know not in the way that they want or not for the price that they
00:52:26 ◼ ► want and i understand it like you should like what you like i don't always understand the the
00:52:31 ◼ ► the mindset behind being just mad like mad that i can't buy it like okay i mean i get it it's very
00:52:39 ◼ ► expensive but also if you don't want it like that's fine that's that's fine i get it this is a long
00:52:46 ◼ ► a lot of people wanted the first iphone it was too expensive a lot of people on the first mac and it
00:52:51 ◼ ► was too expensive like it it happens it still happens in this it will come down over time
00:52:57 ◼ ► but for now it is that as for the 3500 dev kit i mean i know i know the specific post that you're
00:53:04 ◼ ► referring to when you say that honestly jason i've i've seen lots more than once i've seen it
00:53:10 ◼ ► everywhere okay well i'm thinking of a specific post but here's what i would say it is true from
00:53:17 ◼ ► a certain point of view because a lot of the people who are going to buy this are going to be
00:53:22 ◼ ► developers who want in on this platform that's absolutely true however it's also not true
00:53:29 ◼ ► probably probably in the sense that there is going to be software for it and there are going to be
00:53:34 ◼ ► these other kind of experiences like movies for it and so i don't think that the early adopters
00:53:40 ◼ ► of this are going to feel like it's a completely barren wasteland that said will it appear barren
00:53:47 ◼ ► compared to where this platform will probably be in a couple of years sure i think that's true but
00:53:53 ◼ ► i think we don't really know what the third-party content and third-party app story is going to be
00:53:58 ◼ ► i think it's right to be apprehensive and say given that a lot of developers have never touched
00:54:02 ◼ ► the hardware at all most other developers have only touched it for a very short amount of time
00:54:07 ◼ ► in like a lab somewhere that a lot of developers are reluctant to put their software out for this
00:54:13 ◼ ► thing unseen and so when you if you get it week one you may find that a lot of software just isn't
00:54:20 ◼ ► there yet and does that make it kind of a developer kit where it's a product only of interest to
00:54:25 ◼ ► developers sort of but again i think there will be software out there i think that there's the
00:54:30 ◼ ► max screen sharing connectivity stuff and i think there's all the 3d content like especially movies
00:54:42 ◼ ► but it will have some element of that of like i think a huge i said it earlier this is early
00:54:48 ◼ ► adopters and developers who are going to be the people who buy the first 500 000 of these things
00:54:52 ◼ ► i think and and that's like early adopters by i mean by definition they're early adopters but
00:54:57 ◼ ► you know what i mean it's the people who are like i can spend the money i want to live on the cutting
00:55:01 ◼ ► edge and bless those people i mean it's it's me like i'm one of those people like i've been saving
00:55:09 ◼ ► money aside putting money aside for six months to buy one of these things and i would have been that
00:55:12 ◼ ► person even if i wasn't doing what i do it's one of the reasons i do what i do is because i've been
00:55:16 ◼ ► that person right like it's something i care about i care about new technology i want to experience
00:55:21 ◼ ► new technology i think there might have even been an argument because we talked last year about
00:55:25 ◼ ► developer kit early like a year ago more than a year ago maybe about is this just going to be a
00:55:30 ◼ ► developer kit because i kept saying you know they could just ship this thing as a developer kit and
00:55:36 ◼ ► say we're going to spend the first year building it and then i think what the conversation ended
00:55:40 ◼ ► up being is well what if they ship it and they don't call it a developer kit but you know we
00:55:47 ◼ ► were like will people get the wrong idea i was like well you know what 3500 gives people the
00:55:51 ◼ ► right idea about it which is it's probably not for them and it lets the people who want to be out on
00:55:57 ◼ ► the cutting edge be out there and that's why it keeps reminding me of the early days of computers
00:56:02 ◼ ► because the early days of personal computers so i was like i grew up i'm born in 1970 so i grew up
00:56:07 ◼ ► as a kid when the first personal computers came to schools and stuff and i can and eventually to our
00:56:15 ◼ ► homes and i can tell you as a as a kid who lived through that era where it was like we got to get
00:56:23 ◼ ► these kids in front of computers because computers are the future and you know what they were right
00:56:27 ◼ ► they were totally right um it was like this in the sense that they were incredibly expensive
00:56:35 ◼ ► there wasn't a lot of software for them and everybody was asking what do i even do with
00:56:39 ◼ ► this it was like this is the future we got to get this in front of the kids and then there was like
00:56:43 ◼ ► the record scratch because there were records back then too and it's like wait a second what do we do
00:56:47 ◼ ► with this what what what do we actually do with it and they're like yeah you could balance your
00:56:52 ◼ ► checkbook it's like yeah i could do that in my checkbook there were checks back then too
00:56:56 ◼ ► boy that was a long time ago and then and they'd be like oh well how about recipes the history of
00:57:02 ◼ ► the computer industry is attempts to get people to put recipes into software like is this is not
00:57:08 ◼ ► like i use mela i was i was making stuff with mela um great app yesterday but like i had a mac app
00:57:15 ◼ ► before that i had apple 2 app before that probably had like a commodore pet app before that like
00:57:19 ◼ ► people have been trying to find ways um in fact the word that we all now use which is app
00:57:26 ◼ ► software application people were desperate in the early days to find any way you could apply
00:57:33 ◼ ► software to make a computer useful and for regular people in a home and it was hard i mean you see
00:57:42 ◼ ► the echoes of it now with imac sitting on kitchen islands but like it was a hard thing to do and
00:57:48 ◼ ► this time reminds me of that which is you can pay a lot of money to get a thing that nobody
00:57:54 ◼ ► really knows what it's going to be but it might be the future and nobody really knows what the
00:57:59 ◼ ► software is going to be there's no killer app yet like it's very similar and i'm oh that's why i'm
00:58:05 ◼ ► okay in principle with apple putting this thing out as a product because the way it's going to go
00:58:10 ◼ ► we know it's expensive we know there aren't that many of them at least and and it gives the
00:58:15 ◼ ► developers who are out there some people some customers to use their products by not making
00:58:22 ◼ ► a developer kit so instead of it being like door closed to non-developers it's more like an old
00:58:27 ◼ ► school tech product which is it's early days if you want to spend a lot of money to be one of the
00:58:33 ◼ ► first one on your block to have one of these things and we it's really cool what do you do
00:58:37 ◼ ► with it i don't know boy that's just that's just like the early personal computers and i'm not
00:58:43 ◼ ► saying this thing will have the trajectory of the early personal computer it's a very different time
00:58:46 ◼ ► and it's a very different kind of technology but i am saying like i'm okay with that being the
00:58:51 ◼ ► audience for this product in the beginning because i think it's better than it just being for
00:58:55 ◼ ► developers and there being nobody but developers developing for other developers like it's better
00:59:00 ◼ ► than that but it's still like you know we're not going to call it a beta but let's call it what it
00:59:05 ◼ ► is it's a 1.0 of a new product category and that's okay so like similarly i've been people who've
00:59:12 ◼ ► seen people say like oh they don't know what this device is for they're letting consumers be the
00:59:15 ◼ ► beta testers yeah but that is actually kind of the point i think like and it's why it's $3500
00:59:22 ◼ ► it's one of the many reasons why and this is brand new and they're going to see what people want to
00:59:28 ◼ ► do with it they've put in the basics right like to make it work i'm sure that you can make it work
00:59:36 ◼ ► with everything that's already on there even if you had no third-party software like you could use
00:59:40 ◼ ► it as a computer right you have a web browser you have notes you have messages right like you have
00:59:45 ◼ ► an email like calendar it's all in there like you can use what is in there and it can be a full
00:59:50 ◼ ► fledged computer and then you can work out exactly what it is that you want to do with it and it's
00:59:57 ◼ ► expensive like and the reason i say that is like if you would have made it just a dev kit they may
01:00:01 ◼ ► have not put all those things on it right like and be like oh you know it's got a web browser and you
01:00:07 ◼ ► can run your app but we're not going to build you the notes app because we don't think you need it
01:00:12 ◼ ► so like i prefer that isn't that developer you gotta ship it eventually right i mean a dev kit is
01:00:18 ◼ ► not you shipped it right it's not it's a hedge against it and they're like no we're gonna ship
01:00:24 ◼ ► it we're gonna treat it like a real product and we're gonna see where it goes and yeah a lot of
01:00:27 ◼ ► developers are gonna buy them at the beginning i mean i don't think that that 500 000 developers
01:00:32 ◼ ► are gonna buy it but i think between developers and early adopters and then something takes hold
01:00:36 ◼ ► where word gets around like i i fully expect that there's going to be a story at some point about
01:00:41 ◼ ► how some hollywood type or some you know financial type is like oh everybody's buying these for 3500
01:00:50 ◼ ► dollars and just using them to watch movies or watch movies on planes or whatever like i i and
01:00:55 ◼ ► is that a common use case of course not but it will be a use case and that'll sell a thousand
01:01:00 ◼ ► and then this other use case will sell a few thousand and and you know that that's how it's
01:01:04 ◼ ► gonna go at first i saw people referencing the fact that the apple was talking about apps like
01:01:10 ◼ ► fantastic how slack and microsoft office in the press release there's like a like a downside as
01:01:16 ◼ ► in like oh is this all you've got to talk about is these productivity apps and i feel like for me i
01:01:21 ◼ ► think it actually makes sense you'd focus on productivity because you're trying to enforce
01:01:25 ◼ ► that it's a computer like first like it's yes it's a computer for computer things it's their
01:01:30 ◼ ► whole their whole goal this is a place where they've been incredibly disciplined right when
01:01:34 ◼ ► we sat there in june it's like spatial computing it's a computer you're going to use it as a
01:01:39 ◼ ► computer and i think part of that is they're just trying to counterbalance the perception
01:01:42 ◼ ► that this is only for games because as a game machine it's a bad you know 3500 for a sort of
01:01:48 ◼ ► limited games machine it's not a great you know right like you got to go with with what your
01:01:53 ◼ ► device is capable of and try to make the case for it and they know that people are going to play
01:01:56 ◼ ► games on it and it's like so it's not the point the point is you can do all these other things
01:02:01 ◼ ► with it will i mean surely people inside apple have been doing this and so they must have at
01:02:06 ◼ ► least some confidence that this is a thing that people are going to do but it is it's part of
01:02:17 ◼ ► slack and office in the press release i think is fine it's what they're trying to do is say this
01:02:21 ◼ ► is a computer you put on your face it's like an ipad and and it can work with your mac and like
01:02:25 ◼ ► it's a new way of computing and that may be 10 of use or 1 of use or 50 of use we don't know i think
01:02:32 ◼ ► it's okay to be skeptical of it but not to say that it's a bad sign that it's in the press release
01:02:37 ◼ ► i whether whether people use this for productivity it remains to be seen but it's consistent messaging
01:02:43 ◼ ► from apple that this is a computer so people talking about especially in relation to those
01:02:53 ◼ ► let me just say right like if somebody takes our existing app and compiles it for vision pro that's
01:03:00 ◼ ► actually great like having used it one of the great things about this device is you can take
01:03:08 ◼ ► an app and you can make it as small or as big as you want and you can have loads of them everywhere
01:03:14 ◼ ► like we're not this isn't stage manager right where we've got like four apps and they can only
01:03:21 ◼ ► be in a certain way and they're all going to overlap each other it's like if you took ipad
01:03:27 ◼ ► kind of app style design and gave it closer to mac window management but in an almost infinite canvas
01:03:35 ◼ ► size like not everything has to be like like i don't want to do my calendar in vr right like
01:03:42 ◼ ► i don't need to be in an immersive environment to grab and move my calendar appointments around
01:03:47 ◼ ► right like i just need the fantastic help ipad app but i can scale it as big or as small as i want
01:03:54 ◼ ► and i can take it and i can put it behind me and that's just where it lives and i always know it's
01:04:00 ◼ ► over there hence the spatial part of the spatial computer thing like them looking and acting like
01:04:04 ◼ ► ipad apps in some instances will be what you want but it is a i don't think is going to be a vastly
01:04:11 ◼ ► better experience than using that app on an ipad some of it i think is going to be i mean i do think
01:04:17 ◼ ► that there's probably a case for i mean federico our friend federico who has spent so much time
01:04:24 ◼ ► with ipads and so much time with stage manager what is vision pro but a 3d stage manager i mean
01:04:32 ◼ ► seriously so the idea that if you really want to get productivity done on an ipad if you can run
01:04:38 ◼ ► all those apps on a vision pro instead of having like an ipad screen or an external display with
01:04:44 ◼ ► some apps on it that you have to manage using various management techniques imagine all those
01:04:49 ◼ ► apps being floating windows that you actually can just use your hands to move around in place
01:04:53 ◼ ► in space in different places and look around and move them and resize them like i i think there
01:05:00 ◼ ► maybe is an argument that the vision pro is going to be the best productivity ipad ever which is
01:05:06 ◼ ► wild but it may be it may not be right we don't know i think you got to use it for a few hours
01:05:11 ◼ ► and find out if it's like even remotely reasonable to use this thing for that time but maybe and then
01:05:16 ◼ ► the other thing is to use things as utilities as ancillary utilities so let's say and and i don't
01:05:22 ◼ ► i'm not thrilled with their facetime implementation right i'm surprised that they're not doing
01:05:26 ◼ ► something like what meta has done where you you put multiple people in the same virtual space
01:05:34 ◼ ► with them even if they're just meemojis i think that that you know i'm sure they tried it and
01:05:41 ◼ ► didn't like it or couldn't build it or whatever but like having people in a facetime window i'm
01:05:52 ◼ ► that you're collaborating with remote people using this device and they're on screen in some way
01:05:57 ◼ ► you're going to need to refer to documents and maybe slack messages and your calendar and so
01:06:04 ◼ ► the idea of using it potentially as a collaboration and communication tool but you still need to look
01:06:11 ◼ ► at the document maybe you're editing the document together right maybe you are talking about your
01:06:17 ◼ ► next meeting and you can pull up fantastical and say oh yeah i'm free at this time like there are
01:06:21 ◼ ► lots of secondary reasons where it's like i'm not i'm not gonna probably put on this thing and say
01:06:28 ◼ ► let's get busy with fantastical i'm gonna do a lot of calendar stuff now right it's that's not
01:06:33 ◼ ► what it's for it's for the the thing being on the side while you're doing the main thing you're doing
01:06:37 ◼ ► which is probably collaboration i would think i don't know people want this to be a productivity
01:06:44 ◼ ► device but it will have all the limitations of ios and ipad os productivity so disappointment looms
01:06:50 ◼ ► um i don't know i don't know what to say about that one i think we i think we sort of covered it
01:06:56 ◼ ► the idea is it will have it will probably okay will the apps have limitations that are bound by
01:07:03 ◼ ► ios and ipad os yes probably but i just said it about stage manager it's a different paradigm
01:07:11 ◼ ► right because you've got these floating items and part of the disappointment that i have with ipad
01:07:16 ◼ ► os is in the lack of like uh getting your multitasking and getting your different apps in
01:07:24 ◼ ► different places and all set up right like stage manager is okay for that but like i think that
01:07:28 ◼ ► this is going to be different because you're going to have the different apps in different places
01:07:31 ◼ ► it doesn't necessarily mean if you're like oh but the ipad app isn't good and the mac app is
01:07:35 ◼ ► yeah that's going to be a limitation i i i i use a lot of ipad apps yeah and they're all they're
01:07:44 ◼ ► pretty good but sure um there is a whole mac story here too right the idea that you could travel with
01:07:50 ◼ ► a small mac a macbook air and flip it open in a hotel room and have a giant display because you're
01:07:57 ◼ ► now controlling using that ultra fast screen sharing technology that they put in sonoma for
01:08:02 ◼ ► a reason for this reason you are now using your mac it's not mac running on device but you are
01:08:07 ◼ ► using a mac whatever that mac is like there are other stories here well the mac the mac becomes
01:08:12 ◼ ► a window right it's like the thing that we've wanted on ipad for a while for a long time which
01:08:17 ◼ ► is like just give me the macintosh like escape hatch right like yeah i'm doing things with my
01:08:24 ◼ ► apps but i need to do this one thing and this device can't do it it's like the idea of having
01:08:29 ◼ ► like my mac is there and it's doing what it's doing and then around it are all the other
01:08:33 ◼ ► windows that i'm using and they're it's all kind of working together like i think it has that hatch
01:08:41 ◼ ► to jump to jump out of but i also i feel like apple's got to know right that like if this is
01:08:50 ◼ ► going to be a new platform they have to to take the learnings of ipad os right that would be my
01:08:58 ◼ ► hope and that like it does what it does do you want this to do more my hope is they do and they
01:09:07 ◼ ► will as we move into vision os 2 and 3 they might open it up more and more i don't know what that's
01:09:15 ◼ ► going to look like but at this point i'm choosing to have faith in it rather than assuming that it's
01:09:21 ◼ ► going to be disappointing now your quote here i'm going to take it wrong but for good reason which
01:09:34 ◼ ► right i think they mean the software limitations yep but i'm going to tell you the number one
01:09:41 ◼ ► limitation of ios and ipad os is screen size yeah and that won't be on the vision pro no because
01:09:50 ◼ ► you'll be able to open multiple apps in multiple windows at huge sizes that they've never been in
01:09:56 ◼ ► before or at small sizes and so i would that would be part of my counter is that there is one
01:10:03 ◼ ► huge limitation of ios and ipad os that the vision pro won't have which is screen space and screen
01:10:08 ◼ ► space is very important like very important it's the main reason that i don't use uh my ipad to get
01:10:15 ◼ ► my general work done now it's not the apps it's how many of them i can look at at any one point
01:10:21 ◼ ► like and stage manager doesn't do it for me personally like it really doesn't like i don't
01:10:26 ◼ ► feel like i get anything out of stage manager that a mac doesn't give me better right where like what
01:10:32 ◼ ► i plug an ipad into a display i might as well just plug a mac into a display because stage manager on
01:10:37 ◼ ► the mac i prefer or at least just don't even use it i can have as many windows open as i want and i
01:10:41 ◼ ► can freeform size them there like and i get that with this on a scale which i have never seen before
01:11:06 ◼ ► accessories put it that way but like i'm wondering if we're going to be here in three months saying
01:11:14 ◼ ► okay first thing you should do with vision pro is get a keyboard and pair it to it that is actually
01:11:20 ◼ ► one of my uh one of my criticisms here that i picked up the virtual keyboard looks terrible
01:11:29 ◼ ► well i mean the screen's going to be way bigger than your laptop because it's going to be the
01:11:32 ◼ ► whole room or the whole virtual environment that's the reason but the keyboard yeah that that that
01:11:37 ◼ ► poke at the keys keyboard it it totally looks bad but here's something i said about last week that
01:11:42 ◼ ► i got a sort of through the grapevine general nod to which is we didn't get to use voice commands
01:11:49 ◼ ► but they're there and they're very useful so the idea that you can just say um lady open fantastic
01:11:57 ◼ ► cow and it opens and you can and this is important and then you can be in a text window and if it's
01:12:03 ◼ ► just a short amount of text you can just use dictation right like all those features that
01:12:07 ◼ ► are already there but as opposed to using like if your hands are on your ipad or on your iphone and
01:12:14 ◼ ► the screen slide uh keyboard slides up and you go to to do on a vision pro you might be like uh i
01:12:19 ◼ ► don't really want to use that dumb keyboard you might be more inclined to actually use the
01:12:23 ◼ ► dictation which is pretty good right apple's dictation has come a long way it's real-time
01:12:27 ◼ ► dictation now and you can edit as you go um and so i think there's going to be more voice
01:12:38 ◼ ► text input at a larger scale you probably will want a keyboard you might want a keyboard and
01:12:42 ◼ ► a trackpad depending on you know if you're controlling a mac i imagine the mac use case
01:12:47 ◼ ► is going to be a laptop where you're actually using the keyboard and the trackpad on the laptop
01:12:51 ◼ ► but it's controlling the screen that you're seeing but i don't know we don't know any of this some
01:12:55 ◼ ► people at apple probably know but we don't know the last thing i have is about apps again but
01:13:01 ◼ ► giving the developers the ability to opt out of having their apps show on the vision pro will mean
01:13:06 ◼ ► that the app store will be a bit of a wasteland and that was a mistake i've heard that lots of
01:13:13 ◼ ► opt-outs are happening and i think that there's a balance here which is on the one hand apple
01:13:23 ◼ ► wants as many of those apps in the store as possible and they're going to really try to push
01:13:27 ◼ ► the idea that they're in there on the other hand i totally understand that if i'm a developer
01:13:34 ◼ ► and i've never seen my app run on that platform that i would be really reluctant to allow it to
01:13:41 ◼ ► run because the support burden falls on me and i don't even have one yeah so i think apple would
01:13:49 ◼ ► be making a lot of developers angry if they didn't give them the opportunity to opt out yep and so
01:13:54 ◼ ► they have to do it but i do i have heard through the grapevine that there have been lots of opt-outs
01:13:59 ◼ ► like there were running apps on apple silicon max right which is a huge to this day a huge frustration
01:14:05 ◼ ► because there are lots of very useful apps that i would like to use on my mac then again i talk
01:14:10 ◼ ► to the developers and and they say things like well yeah but i use like i talked to a developer
01:14:15 ◼ ► who uses a utility connected to the music app and and i said where's the mac version and his response
01:14:20 ◼ ► was well we connect to the music app on ios using this system but on the mac we have to connect
01:14:26 ◼ ► using a different system because we have to connect to the mac music app which is a different
01:14:31 ◼ ► app and it works differently and it doesn't work right i'm like okay all right like i get it i see
01:14:38 ◼ ► it but i hate it i want to finish out today jason with some ask upgrade questions also about the
01:14:44 ◼ ► vision problem oh yay so for as much as we can answer these questions for people we will try our
01:14:49 ◼ ► best so oh thank you i didn't give you the typical lead in there so no i wasn't sure were you we
01:14:56 ◼ ► talking in general terms about ask upgrade or are we rolling right into we can roll right in the
01:15:01 ◼ ► what lasers are signed now so they're gone off so we're in ian says i have three prescriptions
01:15:07 ◼ ► for my eyes one for reading another for medium distance and one for long distance which one
01:15:13 ◼ ► should i upload during the vision pro purchase now i will preface this by saying we cannot give you
01:15:20 ◼ ► the answer to this question for sure right and i hope apple will give you the answer to that
01:15:24 ◼ ► question yes but video editor chip hi chip our video editor here pointed uh me to an faq from
01:15:32 ◼ ► a company that makes lenses for the quest and i'll put a link to those can be called vr wave like
01:15:37 ◼ ► they make this is what they do they make this stuff and this is what chip used for his quest
01:15:41 ◼ ► this company recommended distance lenses for vr so maybe that's what you'll need but ultimately
01:15:50 ◼ ► you're gonna have to try and get that answer from apple but distance makes sense to me but yeah i
01:15:58 ◼ ► don't know yeah my understanding is that most vr stuff and i assume vision pro works like this more
01:16:03 ◼ ► or less um you're thinking oh they'll they're right up in front of my eyes so it's i need to
01:16:08 ◼ ► do near adjustment but that's not actually how it works because they they bend the light they change
01:16:12 ◼ ► the light and your your eyes feel like it's coming from and i believe it's a fixed focal distance it
01:16:18 ◼ ► may be more dynamic than that but uh usually with vr it's like a fixed focal distance of what um
01:16:24 ◼ ► three meters nine feet away and so you do want distance i hope apple will say this because i
01:16:31 ◼ ► also have i have computer glasses which are are near glasses they're for like three feet
01:16:37 ◼ ► away from me two three feet away from me and they are what they are is a much reduced version of my
01:16:43 ◼ ► prescription and then i've got my regular glasses which are progressive so it's distance viewing at
01:16:48 ◼ ► the top and reading at the bottom um and and so like what do i do well i my understanding is that
01:16:57 ◼ ► what i will use is my main prescription that's what i used on the meta quest and it works fine
01:17:02 ◼ ► yeah and not the computer glasses because what they want what they're trying to do is get a fixed
01:17:06 ◼ ► distance and this is one of the things that they haven't figured out i think in vr yet which is how
01:17:11 ◼ ► do you make it so that the thing right in front of your face feels like it's right in front of your
01:17:15 ◼ ► face and the thing that's way far away feels way far away in terms of your vision that's not really
01:17:20 ◼ ► how it works it's all everything is sort of at a similar focus plane so it should probably be your
01:17:25 ◼ ► main prescription but i'm sure apple will communicate this because they have to they haven't i wish they
01:17:32 ◼ ► would they haven't but they have to not on sale yet right they haven't actually asked any member
01:17:36 ◼ ► of the public for their prescription yet i can tell you that they read my standard glasses when
01:17:41 ◼ ► i went in right and and it looked fine so that's my guess is that they're going to want your regular
01:17:47 ◼ ► glasses and not your computer glasses nick asks do you think apple could be waiting to ship new
01:17:54 ◼ ► peripherals keyboards mice that kind of thing until after the vision pro ships maybe they
01:17:58 ◼ ► include some updates that are more tailored to it it seems like a keyboard and trackpad would
01:18:02 ◼ ► be crucial for vision pro productivity i don't know i mean i i do wonder about like if you're
01:18:10 ◼ ► being productive in places without a tabletop if if apple will finally make like a magic keyboard
01:18:16 ◼ ► trackpad combo but like that like that utility that they're that little accessory that's out there
01:18:22 ◼ ► well i would honestly hope they could have maybe that they do some switching between devices right
01:18:29 ◼ ► because you mentioned that would be nice how does it work with the mac is the keyboard and trackpad
01:18:34 ◼ ► attached to the mac or can it be attached to the headset and it uses the mac right like
01:18:39 ◼ ► which how does that work and if they are separate i would really like to have one keyboard and i can
01:18:45 ◼ ► use it on either device depending on what i'm doing so maybe there could be some fun stuff in
01:18:51 ◼ ► there but they could have done that at any point like maybe this is some i do detect some like
01:18:56 ◼ ► sometimes ask upgrade questions or wishes i think this is a wish from nick that there's a good
01:19:03 ◼ ► reason they haven't done this yet we all would like updated peripherals uh this is probably i
01:19:09 ◼ ► mean i think this is probably on apple's list of reasons to update their peripherals but
01:19:14 ◼ ► i i think that's it doesn't strike me as being enough to ship a new product right but i mean
01:19:21 ◼ ► we're we're way past time that i expected new keyboards and trackpads to ship so i feel like
01:19:27 ◼ ► any moment they could ship i'm not sure that vision pro shipping is the reason you ship them
01:19:33 ◼ ► and matthew asks do you think that the vision pro could bring back skeuomorphic design and
01:19:38 ◼ ► that we could see a resurgence over the next few years to make devices feel more lifelike
01:19:50 ◼ ► right it's like fashion everything will come back and i think maybe that the the ios designs that
01:19:56 ◼ ► beat skeuomorphic design out of the equation it was probably extreme and there's going to be a
01:20:03 ◼ ► bounce back if there isn't already yeah it would vision pro is interesting though because i think
01:20:07 ◼ ► vision pro in a lot of cases skeuomorphism is what you should do right like there are a lot of
01:20:13 ◼ ► things that you're going to be placing in scenes especially the the like the volumes part of the
01:20:19 ◼ ► the way you can make a little 3d thing that you can put around that should look like the thing
01:20:23 ◼ ► that you're making it look like yeah if you're creating a 3d software object it has got to be
01:20:29 ◼ ► skeuomorphism right like that's what it is is skeuomorphism if it's a piece of software that's
01:20:33 ◼ ► now being turned into a 3d object i keep thinking of things like if it's something that emits audio
01:20:39 ◼ ► so like overcast or broadcasts something some app like that i'd like to be able to have like
01:20:46 ◼ ► a little radio or speaker or something and set it somewhere and then have the audio you know come
01:20:52 ◼ ► from that point in space right like that would be really cool that's as skeuomorphic as it gets and
01:20:58 ◼ ► i wonder if that takes off and there's a lot of skeuomorphic stuff happening in the system if there
01:21:03 ◼ ► is some follow-on behavior to that that runs on other platforms but maybe maybe maybe not but i
01:21:11 ◼ ► feel like vision pro is a place where skeuomorphism actually does make sense in a lot of cases i'm
01:21:16 ◼ ► going to include a link in the show notes to a youtube video it's made by a relay fm member
01:21:22 ◼ ► damion who posted this in discord the other day and damion makes an app called voice in a can
01:21:28 ◼ ► which is a third-party app for the amazon echo assistant and damion has made a version for the
01:21:36 ◼ ► vision pro and it effectively puts a something that looks like an echo dot in your room and you
01:21:45 ◼ ► look at it and you talk to it and that's how it works which i just think is like super cool and
01:21:51 ◼ ► what does it respond with either by voice or it can show you pieces of ui like if you ask it for
01:21:57 ◼ ► a timer it puts up like a little timer window oh so you're you're essentially talking to the app
01:22:02 ◼ ► and giving the app input by talking to it correct the app is responding yeah i like it it's an idea
01:22:08 ◼ ► of this little uh and it's using the amazon echo system like it talks to the amazon echo api that
01:22:15 ◼ ► exists like oh i see so it is actually using the the alexa system yeah interesting interesting and
01:22:23 ◼ ► i just think it's a really cute little idea of like combining the stuff so you just look at it
01:22:28 ◼ ► so you look at it you do like the finger gesture and then you speak and then you let go and it
01:22:33 ◼ ► takes the order and presents you with something maybe it's a shopping list maybe it's a timer or
01:22:38 ◼ ► an answer to a question i like it that's a nice idea i think that there's i mean we know that our
01:22:44 ◼ ► friend david smith is working on some you know widget smithy kind of things for this and there's
01:22:49 ◼ ► a lot of potential we talked about there's no widgets on vision os but like the idea that you
01:22:53 ◼ ► could going back to how we started the show when i talked about being a minimalist one of the things
01:22:58 ◼ ► that i love is ambient information right it's around and i can look at it and i feel like this
01:23:04 ◼ ► fits with my minimalism i don't want it in my face i want to be able to like look at it and say oh
01:23:08 ◼ ► yeah and then look away and that's i think about software and vision pro like that too the idea
01:23:13 ◼ ► that you could take again because you've got unlimited sort of screen space take an item that
01:23:19 ◼ ► you might want to see every now and then like hanging a picture or a clock in your office and
01:23:25 ◼ ► put it somewhere put on the wall put it on a table or whatever and just put this widget-like thing
01:23:30 ◼ ► there so that it's there and it's doing its thing and i can look over at it and get something out of
01:23:37 ◼ ► it the weather the time whatever it is and then look back to what i'm doing i think that that's
01:23:43 ◼ ► got a lot of potential i think that's really interesting so i'm gonna put a link in the
01:23:46 ◼ ► show notes to a poster masterland that david uh put up the other day when he was like playing
01:23:51 ◼ ► around with clocks and he says after three years of spending much of my working life designing
01:23:55 ◼ ► rounded rectangle widgets it's a delight to be able to now make free free free to make widgets
01:24:00 ◼ ► in whatever shape makes sense for the content because so he's there aren't actually widgets
01:24:05 ◼ ► right but he can make windows and the windows act like he's widgets and so he and also what i like
01:24:13 ◼ ► is like he don't he no longer needs to worry about like building a a preview because you just build
01:24:18 ◼ ► the widget like you're just building it and you're seeing it and it runs from your app yeah so great
01:24:24 ◼ ► this is the kind of stuff that makes me excited right like these things we're talking about here
01:24:29 ◼ ► of like these are people they are poking at the edges of what it's been like to make apps right
01:24:36 ◼ ► where like now like these are two developers who make ios apps and they have made versions of these
01:24:44 ◼ ► that exist in space differently like i don't understand how you can't if you listen to the
01:24:50 ◼ ► show you look at that you can't be excited about that right like i'm not saying that you need to be
01:24:54 ◼ ► so excited about it you should drop four thousand dollars but with apple but you should be so
01:24:59 ◼ ► excited about it that you're like i can't wait for when i want to buy this you know that that's
01:25:05 ◼ ► how i right or i can't or even like i can't wait to i would say i made a pitch like this on on uh
01:25:11 ◼ ► twit last week or on mac break weekly which is you don't have to want it you could even think it's
01:25:17 ◼ ► dumb but like i think this is going to be a great year because of this apple one of our most powerful
01:25:25 ◼ ► technology companies has built a product that is packed with cutting edge technology it is it is
01:25:30 ◼ ► so far beyond if you hold one of these you're like oh my god it's unbelievable what this thing has
01:25:35 ◼ ► and yeah it's a high price tag but like just go with me here it is one of our most powerful
01:25:41 ◼ ► companies and a company that we all sort of recognize i think is being really making some
01:25:46 ◼ ► of the best products in the technology industry put doing a multi-year maybe even like decade long
01:25:52 ◼ ► billions of dollars spent effort to build a brand new apple platform that has a completely different
01:25:59 ◼ ► interaction model that is largely untested there have been again you know it's not like there
01:26:05 ◼ ► aren't vr headsets out there but it's like it's a pretty green space pretty empty space
01:26:15 ◼ ► mac developers who are running into this space this year it's hard not to be interested in what's
01:26:22 ◼ ► going to happen and what's what we're all going to learn and it might be that we learn that nobody
01:26:29 ◼ ► wants this but it might be that we learn that people do want this for certain things and what
01:26:33 ◼ ► are those things we don't know we have to learn and and things like clever software developers as
01:26:38 ◼ ► you said kind of pushing the envelope and exploring the edges that's my favorite stuff in the
01:26:44 ◼ ► technology industry because we are watching and that moment where you're like oh i see and i'll
01:26:50 ◼ ► tell you i'm sure that a lot of this stuff has been anticipated by people at apple but i will say
01:26:56 ◼ ► there's going to be a lot of stuff that has not been anticipated by people at apple and then when
01:26:59 ◼ ► you mentioned the amazon echo app i thought well gee it really ought to be you really ought to have
01:27:06 ◼ ► the option when you're in that mode of having siri actually be you know they have the little color
01:27:11 ◼ ► orb that comes up when you trigger siri to have siri be an actual orb that you can set somewhere
01:27:16 ◼ ► and that when you talk to it it lights up and you hear the audio coming from it instead of like from
01:27:22 ◼ ► the voice of god so that i can put my siri blob where i want it in this room and have it be a
01:27:30 ◼ ► physical object or the idea that when they do widgets or something like it for vision os
01:27:35 ◼ ► that that what david has learned will inform what they do because they're like oh that's how that
01:27:42 ◼ ► works right and that is a thing we learned about a particular kind of computing environment that
01:27:46 ◼ ► we didn't know before now is might this all be academic and and do you still not want to buy
01:27:51 ◼ ► one or see you ever yourself ever buying one that's okay if that's the case but like i i just
01:27:57 ◼ ► think for anybody who's interested in technology seeing how this plays out and seeing what people
01:28:01 ◼ ► learn and don't learn and and do and don't do i just think that's going to be a fascinating thing
01:28:06 ◼ ► bottom line if you would like to send in any feedback follow-up or questions of your own for
01:28:18 ◼ ► until next week's episode you can check out jason's work online at sixcolors.com you can
01:28:24 ◼ ► hear his podcast here on relay fm and at the incomparable.com you can listen to me here on
01:28:29 ◼ ► relay fm and check out my work at cortexbrand.com we're also on social media if you want to find us
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