The Accidental Tech Podcast

133: You Have to Walk the Dog


00:00:00   even let us give you a vid YouTube starting point and you quickly found [TS]

00:00:04   found that when you click the day unit access facebook but he started off at [TS]

00:00:14   the bottom [TS]

00:00:14   do we have all of this week I put in the link here and how to pronounce this [TS]

00:00:19   person's name and I realize I haven't followed the link to stall for you for a [TS]

00:00:27   moment John you didn't do your homework I did it's in a tabloid there I wasn't [TS]

00:00:34   doing that didn't help [TS]

00:00:35   also it was lost it was lost amongst your tabs wasn't laws that was right [TS]

00:00:39   next to the ATP PEP he knew exactly where it was the whole time I totally I [TS]

00:00:44   just didn't actually click on it to keep open the tab you have to go to the thing [TS]

00:00:48   and put it anyway this feedback as former colleague according to Google [TS]

00:00:52   Translate which I'm sure it is accurate in this case regarding the eyesight [TS]

00:00:58   replacement for iPhone six-plus like the problems that having to get it replaced [TS]

00:01:02   under warranty or whatever question is there reason Apple can't just send a [TS]

00:01:07   notification to the affected devices why do we have to go to a web form an [TS]

00:01:10   interview serial number to find out if your device is the one type of problem [TS]

00:01:14   and I thought that was an interesting question because there is to ask myself [TS]

00:01:20   what one is the technical could Apple even do that and second is the premier [TS]

00:01:25   that would actually want to do that technically speaking I think Apple could [TS]

00:01:32   do that surely there are there is software running iPhone that has access [TS]

00:01:38   to the serial number information like Apple software even if you know third [TS]

00:01:41   party apps on Apple's iOS get that information but they would have to build [TS]

00:01:48   that into the OS really periodically added phones home and says either any [TS]

00:01:52   relevant recalls are updates for this thing so no privacy aspects on this does [TS]

00:01:59   Apple know that phone serial number [TS]

00:02:02   XYZ belongs to an individual person I suppose they do because you've got the [TS]

00:02:08   but I can't find my phone type thing but [TS]

00:02:11   not sure where does that information so my answer at this feedback is they [TS]

00:02:16   probably could and I would imagine the reason they don't is that they don't [TS]

00:02:23   have the code that built-in is probably a low priority since these things happen [TS]

00:02:26   that often and building a tennis like that title mechanism seems like it has [TS]

00:02:33   the potential to be difficult to implement in a way that doesn't expose [TS]

00:02:37   more information about a person to to Apple generally doesn't want to know [TS]

00:02:43   about you as possible and potentially to other things are going to exploit [TS]

00:02:49   whatever hold a spokesman the thing that periodically poled some location and [TS]

00:02:54   upload information about your phone to its thoughts on that [TS]

00:02:59   well you know i i think they they almost certainly could do this kind of thing if [TS]

00:03:04   they wanted to and there there is one thing to consider also that the the [TS]

00:03:10   quote recall or whatever it is the service extension whatever whatever it [TS]

00:03:14   is they say very the same multiple times on that page that it only applies to [TS]

00:03:21   iPhones explosives with this year number range that are in working order and so [TS]

00:03:26   that probably gives them the ability to say well this phone that you're handing [TS]

00:03:30   us all beat up and we you know we're not going to repair this this horribly beat [TS]

00:03:34   up some with broken screen the dental over it for this camera thing because [TS]

00:03:38   you know you've obviously if you this phone it is in good working order so [TS]

00:03:40   that gives them like it gives them an out and there's no way for them to know [TS]

00:03:44   on the server side like you know what kind of condition your phone as in [TS]

00:03:47   physically really and so they probably don't want to send this to two people [TS]

00:03:53   who devices are ineligible [TS]

00:03:54   secondly if they're doing it to save money [TS]

00:03:58   well at least at least a save you know a lot of requests from people who won't be [TS]

00:04:04   satisfied but also they might be doing it to save money they might actually say [TS]

00:04:08   you know this is really only affecting some of these phones and it says it [TS]

00:04:14   makes it kind of clear in the in the language of the page that in one place [TS]

00:04:19   where it states the condition of the first times dates the conditions it says [TS]

00:04:22   phones that are in good working order [TS]

00:04:24   and are examining this problem and in the second time it doesn't mention [TS]

00:04:28   whether the phone has to be exhibit in the problem to have the repair done but [TS]

00:04:33   it looks like they're trying not to replace or not the service phones that [TS]

00:04:39   don't necessarily need quote need it and that could be there could be something [TS]

00:04:44   like well I'm willing to service the ones who scammers are actually showing [TS]

00:04:47   this problem according to a genius who looks at it or also it could mean you [TS]

00:04:51   know we don't really good or service this problem for people who notice the [TS]

00:04:56   problem and who care about the problem so it it probably is to some degree [TS]

00:05:00   trying to minimize the number of people who even know about this problem and you [TS]

00:05:04   go in to get things fixed and who go in and no load the Apple stores and the [TS]

00:05:08   repairs repair centers with even more people and money that I was just meant [TS]

00:05:14   to say that it seems like it would be a tough thing to figure out how let's [TS]

00:05:19   assume they do they want to notify everyone how do you do that exactly by [TS]

00:05:23   that I mean do you just send one massive notification to everyone that has [TS]

00:05:27   affected device that's probably unwise because the Apple stores gonna have a [TS]

00:05:31   pretty crummy day the next few days do you do it in batches will then the [TS]

00:05:35   internet eventually finds out that they're doing this in batches and then [TS]

00:05:38   they go at the Internet is enraged because this iPhone issue you didn't [TS]

00:05:42   even know you had isn't getting fixed the schedule you would like it to be [TS]

00:05:45   fixed in so how does that even work it just seems like a nightmare there's [TS]

00:05:51   there's no good reason for Apple to do this do agree with orca but i just i [TS]

00:05:58   don't think that there's anything in it for Apple in all it does is make things [TS]

00:06:02   kind of more challenging for them it doesn't seem like an urgent issue as the [TS]

00:06:06   chat room pointed out they don't need of the phones polling or if they just do a [TS]

00:06:09   push notification and you know the serial number like when you do find my [TS]

00:06:12   phone and lost all your devices they know your devices to have this [TS]

00:06:16   information available to them and the US would need the poll they would just need [TS]

00:06:19   to get push notification [TS]

00:06:21   so things but it's not like batteries may explode you need to know right now [TS]

00:06:26   now now it's more like the kind of thing that they will probably email you and as [TS]

00:06:30   long as you used in Apple I D they have at least one email you know with your [TS]

00:06:35   phone set up an apple a day they have one email address in this type of thing [TS]

00:06:38   they could send out the emails and I don't think it matters to be sent all [TS]

00:06:41   the emails I want certain batches because people aren't immediately going [TS]

00:06:44   to run out again it's not urgent people whom you are gonna run out to the store [TS]

00:06:47   you read their email whenever they redid and look at the Lego people forget the [TS]

00:06:53   day read other people may have been a reminder in their calendar I think the [TS]

00:06:58   there won't be a big Russian Apple stores no matter how you notify about it [TS]

00:07:01   and it just doesn't seem that urgent like for this particular thing and the [TS]

00:07:06   money-saving aspect that has something to but yet a lot of those a lot of these [TS]

00:07:10   type of things things don't happen very often that are an essential expected [TS]

00:07:14   part of the project experience tend to be done and not just an apple but every [TS]

00:07:19   company tend to be done in sort of ways that seem inefficient or not high-tech [TS]

00:07:23   because it's not you know that's the stuff that happens all the time you know [TS]

00:07:27   software updates for example like expected parts of the life cycle of a [TS]

00:07:31   product are integrated on an improved in made more streamlined and made efficient [TS]

00:07:35   and so on and so forth in these things that happen rarely are supposed to [TS]

00:07:39   happen rarely it's like about what to slap something together even something [TS]

00:07:42   like that I'm excusing this but you can think about the whole pushing the u2 [TS]

00:07:45   album on everyone's things that's not a thing that happens all the time like [TS]

00:07:49   them as far as I know the only time they ever did that it's not as if there is an [TS]

00:07:52   established system for doing this in a way that has been proven to be efficient [TS]

00:07:58   in 99 they just like to them and just said well you know they couldn't [TS]

00:08:04   probably couldn't give everyone promo codes because their promo code system [TS]

00:08:07   probably couldn't handle of this is just too many people and they don't want to [TS]

00:08:10   let you know that I went to be what's the best way we can give everyone US for [TS]

00:08:13   free we can make it free for a day on the store [TS]

00:08:16   well then people might not redeem it and like part of it was a really wanted this [TS]

00:08:20   music back to be on people's things without them having to do anything like [TS]

00:08:22   that [TS]

00:08:23   over the top down instead of often but the way they did it was just so clumsy [TS]

00:08:28   and ham-fisted and least part of that has to be part of this wrong-headed [TS]

00:08:32   thinking the other part is that something you do everyday so you just [TS]

00:08:35   gotta say with the mechanisms and tools and services we have at our disposal [TS]

00:08:39   what can we do to make this happen considering they do have push [TS]

00:08:44   notification stating that was one of things I could have done but then [TS]

00:08:47   someone in the meeting raised their hands say yeah but is this really so [TS]

00:08:51   important and then like the bean counter guy like marcus says that make more [TS]

00:08:55   people come in to get the service but they need to do not so going to web [TS]

00:09:00   forum in entering your serial number starts looks pretty good in that regard [TS]

00:09:04   to make a web form can we do that I think so that the guy who knows where [TS]

00:09:08   that web address in here but also you know this isn't a problem that is so [TS]

00:09:12   urgent that it will cause like data loss or a physical hazardous batteries and [TS]

00:09:17   exploding you know you're like somebody seeing how the iMac 3 terabyte drive [TS]

00:09:23   recall cuz he was seeking her made those three terabyte drives like they said [TS]

00:09:28   they all failed everywhere it was just an accident that that whole drive [TS]

00:09:31   generation was terrible but said that the email people for that that makes [TS]

00:09:36   sense that this is your data that you could be losing if the strike dies in [TS]

00:09:40   this case like your photos might be blurry on your six-plus if it was made [TS]

00:09:44   in this range by the way mine was I had my test expressly qualifies but I you [TS]

00:09:49   know that's not going to qualify if they actually check to have it passed I think [TS]

00:09:53   about it later but nothing is some some people might say well how do you say to [TS]

00:09:58   push notification and and you know will they worry about annoying people and the [TS]

00:10:03   answer there is they don't worry about that at all because they already spam us [TS]

00:10:08   with push notifications for stupid things i three words for that one flash [TS]

00:10:11   flood warning in an office I don't know that we are here in the office as a [TS]

00:10:17   flash flood warning it sounds like the world is coming to an end [TS]

00:10:20   everyone's I terrible klaxon sound so I feel like I mean it's not them and you [TS]

00:10:27   can opt out of that you could turn that stuff off you know when few people [TS]

00:10:30   chatter saying that the legal requirement they had to do that anyway [TS]

00:10:32   that's separate know what I'm talking about is the BS push medications from [TS]

00:10:37   the tips a band from the App Store and from the news app in iOS nine you know [TS]

00:10:42   I've complained for a long time now that there has always been a rule ever since [TS]

00:10:47   push notifications were launched there was always a rule in the App Store [TS]

00:10:50   review rules that said you could I use push notifications for marketing or [TS]

00:10:54   promotion of any kind and not only has that rule never been enforced ever like [TS]

00:11:01   there's been span put in a vacation to push notification that are for marketing [TS]

00:11:05   or promotion only those have existed since the beginning of time and very [TS]

00:11:11   popular apps have always use them like it isn't like it's only a few bad actors [TS]

00:11:15   who do it it's common practice everybody does it now and Apple has never seemed [TS]

00:11:21   to care even though they have this rule they've never seem to even bother trying [TS]

00:11:26   to enforce it and now Apple has started breaking that rule themselves and that [TS]

00:11:31   like they all seem to care or you know obviously you know Apple is not one [TS]

00:11:35   person so certain teams obviously don't seem to care but like to me that's [TS]

00:11:40   extremely inappropriate lake and and maybe it's just saying that this is one [TS]

00:11:44   of those things that I care alot more about than everybody else in the world [TS]

00:11:47   and so maybe I'm just nuts but to me a spam notification is never okay and it's [TS]

00:11:55   especially not OK from the platform vendor for identification that I was [TS]

00:12:00   adopted into by default that is not cool at all I couldn't agree more and the [TS]

00:12:06   tips I think I'd had it on my phone because it got pushed onto my phone [TS]

00:12:10   during a software update or wherever I think I saw one of the tips come through [TS]

00:12:17   on notification center and the very next thing I did was grab my phone and turn [TS]

00:12:21   off all notifications from tips and bury it in the most deep folder in the middle [TS]

00:12:25   of nowhere I'm [TS]

00:12:26   home screens because I don't want anything to do with it I don't want it I [TS]

00:12:30   don't I don't want to be opted into it I wish I was I wish it was opt in buying [TS]

00:12:36   me a rather than opting by them just no go away don't do it and it again it [TS]

00:12:41   doesn't encourage an app developer to be a good citizen of the platform if the [TS]

00:12:49   platform vendors do the same BS crap that that that I would want to do as a [TS]

00:12:53   developer hypothetically it's just gross [TS]

00:12:56   this is kind of a larger theme that I'm that I keep keep seeing cracks in the [TS]

00:13:00   foundation here and I'm really fearing for this you know john mentioned the u2 [TS]

00:13:05   album song is awesome sounds of innocence but ever since and there's [TS]

00:13:11   things like that [TS]

00:13:13   now these know certain apps showing us notifications for Apple and it it kind [TS]

00:13:18   of seems like Apple AAPL is a big company they are the man like talking [TS]

00:13:26   about a rebellion against IBM rebellions big company rolling into the man Apple [TS]

00:13:30   is the man now and Apple is big corporate America now and most of the [TS]

00:13:36   time we're able to ignore that most of the time that is not a problem in the [TS]

00:13:40   way that big you know self-interested only and and sometimes tasteless [TS]

00:13:46   companies in the way they usually act the way they usually annoy people like [TS]

00:13:51   us usually Apple does not display those qualities but there have been a few [TS]

00:13:56   instances recently where it seems like they're slipping it seems like and I [TS]

00:14:02   don't know this is like a Steve vs Tim thing probably not but it seems like [TS]

00:14:08   Apple is starting to behave more like the giant corporation that they have [TS]

00:14:13   been for quite some time and starting to to negatively affect some of the things [TS]

00:14:17   they do it in ways that annoy people like us who who in the past have you [TS]

00:14:22   know Apple's never been perfect but it sure seems like they're they're making [TS]

00:14:26   little bad judgment calls more frequently now than they used to [TS]

00:14:31   in ways like spanning US and in promoting their own stuff and be a [TS]

00:14:35   promoting Apple music so heavily and iTunes and music app that they've just [TS]

00:14:39   ruin the entire news [TS]

00:14:40   and they ruined iTunes to a great degree stuff like that like they're at their [TS]

00:14:44   making bad calls and and they're they're doing things that are only [TS]

00:14:49   self-interested rather than being something of it also benefit us in [TS]

00:14:54   nineteen years though this morning of iTunes much different than all the other [TS]

00:15:00   times they were not have you talked about iTunes Pashos I think of all those [TS]

00:15:03   things that when I can kind of defenders the tips that because it is going to be [TS]

00:15:07   a tip that kinda has to be opted out no one is going to make the whole point is [TS]

00:15:12   you need to people who need these tips the most have no idea how dropped into [TS]

00:15:15   it so which which OS and the thing where you can turn off notifications from the [TS]

00:15:19   notification is that I was nine you can do that [TS]

00:15:23   yeah there was one of the things that I like from the notification you get sad I [TS]

00:15:29   want to see the beginnings of a market that's part of the house was like you [TS]

00:15:33   get the notification maybe I'm business remembering chat room in a second if I'm [TS]

00:15:36   wrong but if not able to do this you get the notification and even when you know [TS]

00:15:40   how to do it I gotta go back to Settings notifications and then scroll until I [TS]

00:15:46   find that thing is no search maybe there is a certain that page is another idea [TS]

00:15:50   that they had to search the settings on iOS yes yes they did it almost works [TS]

00:15:53   alright people in general same thing of Android but anyway yeah that's a feature [TS]

00:16:00   that's that's that would be handy but for tips that has to be opted out [TS]

00:16:04   because the whole plan that helps the people who need the most need and it can [TS]

00:16:07   be annoying even those tips can be annoying as one of the tips one of the [TS]

00:16:11   first tipped his second tip should be don't wanna see any more of these tips [TS]

00:16:16   here's how you turn them off saying that I'm correct you can turn them off the [TS]

00:16:20   notification anyway I haven't installed iOS 902 case you haven't noticed they [TS]

00:16:26   all the other stuff I don't know it's hard for me to discern trends here the [TS]

00:16:30   only friend I can maybe pick out is that when Jobs was still around [TS]

00:16:37   you could see much more limited nothing they're going to try to get into a lot [TS]

00:16:43   of stuff that's true they were there are a limited and [TS]

00:16:46   you could you could kind of I don't know this is actually cheaper you kind of get [TS]

00:16:50   a feel for like things that you would imagine Steve Jobs and find distasteful [TS]

00:16:55   didn't get out the door is that because he was micro-managing you're on the air [TS]

00:16:58   that because everyone around him thought to themselves I saw this is Steve I'll [TS]

00:17:01   tell me it's crappy and we shouldn't put out or whatever whereas the Tim Cook's [TS]

00:17:04   Apple is trying much more things and overall I think that's a benefit because [TS]

00:17:09   we just get so many things that we wanted for so long that you know just [TS]

00:17:13   what I was a tough but on the other side you have like that we never talked about [TS]

00:17:17   that promotional site about what's so amazing about the iPhone and how a [TS]

00:17:20   perder is have great ideas stuff like that that would never come out of you [TS]

00:17:26   know if they had passed under under the jobs that would you know that's not the [TS]

00:17:31   kind of BS that he has different brand of BS like that and that is not the [TS]

00:17:36   correct so I'm mostly I don't think I think it's still a net positive I'm [TS]

00:17:42   going to deal with the bumps in the road ever do you know a lot of these things [TS]

00:17:46   is revealing itself or the ability to turn off the notification from the [TS]

00:17:50   notification must be today should have and you can say the problem is they keep [TS]

00:17:55   sending too many notifications or the tips out noise me or even stuff like i [TS]

00:18:00   cant delete these apps on the phone I should be able to hide them or whatever [TS]

00:18:02   those are exactly the type of things that Tim Cook's Apple seems more [TS]

00:18:06   receptive to hearing the cries about him get to them eventually obviously the [TS]

00:18:10   ability to actually hired the stocks app or whatever it's probably really low on [TS]

00:18:14   the list of thing of longstanding complaints about iOS in terms of impact [TS]

00:18:18   us like what's put them in a folder etc else does but I think they will [TS]

00:18:21   eventually get to it [TS]

00:18:22   unlike the three Tim Cook Apple you like you know they're never gonna let me hold [TS]

00:18:27   stocks that put in a folder no big deal I don't know it it seems like you know [TS]

00:18:33   what you said is correct that it does seem like you know we've we have now a [TS]

00:18:37   different brand of BS you know and Steve's vs whether it was better align [TS]

00:18:42   with us whether we're just used to it the biggest liked steve is a character [TS]

00:18:46   and kind of role then who knows what is a person of a good like where we're [TS]

00:18:50   pretending it steve is BS all was Apple's BS when steve was the CEO [TS]

00:18:55   everything was like a mapped onto him it's like well I don't know what [TS]

00:18:58   actually went on inside the company's all pretend this is Steve Jobs idea like [TS]

00:19:00   that was just the simple the the external application of the black box [TS]

00:19:04   that was apple and same thing we're doing that Tim Cook sapelo whatever we [TS]

00:19:07   have no real way of knowing what's going on internally over doing is trying to [TS]

00:19:11   you know he just does not want a person but we are remodeling it pretend it's a [TS]

00:19:16   person what is the personality that person what kind of person is this Apple [TS]

00:19:19   you know well and you know it is so many big corporations behave like the out of [TS]

00:19:27   touch men in their fifties who run them and it shows and Apple has been run by [TS]

00:19:34   men in their fifties for a while now but it it really didn't behave that way [TS]

00:19:39   didn't seem that way they didn't seem as out of touch as that kind of group [TS]

00:19:45   usually does to people like us but for some reason now I'm not feeling that [TS]

00:19:51   confident that a morir it's just it does seem like that has changed without Steve [TS]

00:19:55   or at least in the same time that that Steve unfortunately passed away in the [TS]

00:20:00   leadership change and everything it now seems more like what it is which is a [TS]

00:20:07   group of old guys traded trying to figure out what school and trying to [TS]

00:20:11   like yell at us now to tell us what's cool just hang America soon you'll be [TS]

00:20:15   able to Guyana cities and then everything will match up again I mean [TS]

00:20:19   I'm already not cool and I'm only 34 3333 I never got to get every time I'm [TS]

00:20:26   already not cool I know that but i would i would not be running something [TS]

00:20:30   borrowed have to decide important things that other people should think are cool [TS]

00:20:34   cool is this just about taste that's all it always comes down to is like what [TS]

00:20:38   what seems a tasteful appropriate thing to do was too flashy what's too [TS]

00:20:43   flamboyant what's to obviously BS like make your BS of these be clever what is [TS]

00:20:47   actually inspiring versus what is cloying like it's it's difficult to do [TS]

00:20:51   is it'll do as an individual that alone trying to hurt a giant multi-billion [TS]

00:20:55   dollar organization to present a face to the world that most people who look on [TS]

00:21:00   it [TS]

00:21:00   decide that it is tasteful the things they do it at all so it is but like [TS]

00:21:05   like the things that we've seen from Apple in in recent time that have seemed [TS]

00:21:10   distasteful to us things like you know the span of innocence things like that [TS]

00:21:14   weird presentations they keep giving and the weird Eddy Cue segment and dental [TS]

00:21:19   music segment like all the stuff you know it's this is this seems like [TS]

00:21:23   they're they're letting a lot of things out that you know Steve's brand of BS [TS]

00:21:30   and the thing and the flaws Steve will it out and be things like the iPod hi-fi [TS]

00:21:34   that's totally gonna be an awesome deal and people are going to buy it you know [TS]

00:21:38   that was the kind of BS late in the game was figuring out to see me like he does [TS]

00:21:45   because he didn't like it won't even be introducing it he didn't like the [TS]

00:21:49   Motorola ROKR me could tell right kind of seemed like you really like the iPod [TS]

00:21:52   iPod and I guess it was ok the rest of the world did not like every day since [TS]

00:21:59   know that but everyone else like sometimes people like sometimes Steve [TS]

00:22:04   thought something would only seem to think something would be a great success [TS]

00:22:09   and that people would have no problem with its price or limitations and then [TS]

00:22:14   the market said very clearly otherwise that was Steve's I think that that was [TS]

00:22:18   Steve's biggest or most common law in judgment whereas now [TS]

00:22:23   current Apple we have other flaws in judgment that are very different to me a [TS]

00:22:27   little more worrisome and maybe it's no big deal you know maybe maybe I'm [TS]

00:22:31   overthinking it that's very possible but it is offset by the other the other [TS]

00:22:35   changes in judgment of like is it a good idea traps to have extension cord to [TS]

00:22:40   have third party brands setting aside to really bug implementation of the new [TS]

00:22:45   Apple says yes the old apple says no I like the new Apple decision better I [TS]

00:22:48   think that outweighs all the stuff I think you're right and and that's why I [TS]

00:22:52   like overall I think Apple is in a better position now than they were say [TS]

00:22:57   five years ago you know overall things are better not you know not everything [TS]

00:23:01   is better but overall I think you're right the things are better it's still [TS]

00:23:05   it seems like you know we we all thought that after Steve Apple you know we were [TS]

00:23:11   all telling ourselves back then you know Apple will be ok [TS]

00:23:15   maybe it maybe it won't change very much but I think we're seeing is is how it [TS]

00:23:21   how it has changed and it isn't offered a better and there are a lot of things [TS]

00:23:24   that are better but obviously like you can't have such an incredibly strong [TS]

00:23:28   personality who had tons of power [TS]

00:23:32   you can't have that kind of person at the top of the company who then leaves [TS]

00:23:37   and nothing changes you know it was never going to be nothing will change [TS]

00:23:43   and it was never good at the end it was never realistic to think that the things [TS]

00:23:48   that we loved about Apple would all survive this transition some of them [TS]

00:23:52   happened and I think that's a little set yeah we really need to talk about [TS]

00:23:57   something that's awesome but very very quickly I just wanted to apologize for [TS]

00:24:00   the people who've been riding me saying oh my god now I see a crescent on my [TS]

00:24:03   iPhone what have you done sorry guys but welcome to the club [TS]

00:24:07   want to tell them that's cool Marco our first bunch of this week is Harry's go [TS]

00:24:12   to Harry's dot com use promo code ATP to save $5 off your first purchase carries [TS]

00:24:18   offers high-quality razors and blades for a fraction of the price of the big [TS]

00:24:23   reason brands they make their own blades from her own factory which they bought [TS]

00:24:27   an old blade factory in Germany liked it so much they bought these are high [TS]

00:24:30   quality high performing German blades crafted by shaving experts giving you a [TS]

00:24:34   better shape their respect your face and your wallet they are factory direct [TS]

00:24:38   pricing at a fraction of the big brands price carries blades are about half the [TS]

00:24:43   price plus you'll have to wait around for some guy come unlock the case in the [TS]

00:24:46   in the drugstore whatever they ship them directly to your door [TS]

00:24:50   the starter set is an amazing deal for 15 bucks a razor moisturizing shave [TS]

00:24:54   cream or gel your choice and three razor blade cartridges when you need more [TS]

00:24:58   blades for just $2 each or less an eight pack is just 15 bucks a 16 pack is 25 [TS]

00:25:05   bucks you try to buy 16 Jo Gillette Fusion blades I think the most [TS]

00:25:09   comfortable blades its $56 carries $25 incredible how much cheaper these things [TS]

00:25:15   are again less than half the price in almost every case i've been a huge [TS]

00:25:20   shaving her before I've tried everything from de safety blades from the Federal [TS]

00:25:24   all the other fancy brands all the way up to the Fusion ProGlide and [TS]

00:25:28   and everything else and from the Gillette line and I can tell you harry's [TS]

00:25:32   is by far the best value in the business no question and I would say the quality [TS]

00:25:36   is very very similar in almost every possible way to Gillette Fusion blades [TS]

00:25:40   and Harry's handles look better [TS]

00:25:44   everything about Harry's so much classier it's a better experience buying [TS]

00:25:48   it they have great supporter Peter needed for anyone any order help or [TS]

00:25:51   anything it is it is impossible to to overstate the difference in quality and [TS]

00:25:57   experience and design between harry's and the other big brands so check it out [TS]

00:26:03   go to Harry's dot com use promo code ATP to save $5 off your first purchase get a [TS]

00:26:08   starter set today with a handle three blades and shaving cream for just $15 [TS]

00:26:13   including free shipping right to your door [TS]

00:26:16   carries dot com ATP thanks a lot [TS]

00:26:20   rate I wanted to quickly talk about something I've been thinking about on [TS]

00:26:27   and off all day today and we've been talking a lot about forced touch and [TS]

00:26:31   kind of 10 tangentially the haptic engine and how it would be used on the [TS]

00:26:36   iPhone and had occurred to me and I don't recall us talking about this what [TS]

00:26:42   if you opt-in kind of like iPad multitasking gestures you know that the [TS]

00:26:46   five finger pinch in the four finger swipes what if it was opt-in and so it [TS]

00:26:53   all the confusion that we were worried about from normal users that had never [TS]

00:26:58   experienced for such before don't really know what it's all about what if it was [TS]

00:27:01   optional like would that be a reasonable solution to problems [TS]

00:27:05   sure what it would do necessarily but maybe it's an optional long press but [TS]

00:27:11   like you like you were saying before Marco on a prior episode but but the key [TS]

00:27:15   is that its opt-in and by default it doesn't do anything [TS]

00:27:17   marketed that way though they're gonna be touching the screen you can be pretty [TS]

00:27:21   darn sure that they're gonna it's gonna be one of the very high up both point [TS]

00:27:26   features of the iPhone success wherever they end up calling it and if its opt-in [TS]

00:27:31   people are going to get it and say I seventy yet with a distin- how do I do [TS]

00:27:35   that thing where you got to go to settings [TS]

00:27:37   can't possibly be out there just for marketing reasons that is assuming the [TS]

00:27:41   even tell you that it's there if they don't mention it decided this is not [TS]

00:27:45   going to be a marketing feature that would seem weird to me like why build [TS]

00:27:49   the sensors in and not like you live there aren't that many marketing [TS]

00:27:53   features for the S revision phones gonna look the same as the other one they may [TS]

00:27:57   be changed the materials in this week this week that but it's not like this [TS]

00:28:01   one has to know touch I D that's the type of feature that you get when the [TS]

00:28:07   whole phone changes shape in the two you're kidding right now so any kind of [TS]

00:28:13   feature you can say you know that you added an extra vision here though they [TS]

00:28:17   really want to tout its like a cannot imagine it being [TS]

00:28:21   unless they really really really couldn't figure out what the hell to do [TS]

00:28:24   with force touch on the phone and then like we get there what to do with that [TS]

00:28:28   we should just leave it in kind of experimental mode for now I guess that [TS]

00:28:32   makes sense but the other thing I was thinking about is what if what if they [TS]

00:28:39   don't do force touch but still have the haptic engines so what if it's not about [TS]

00:28:47   pushing quote-unquote through the display it's not about having different [TS]

00:28:51   interaction paradigms from user to phone but it's about having a different [TS]

00:28:57   interaction paradigm phone to user so maybe it's like the rumble pack was to [TS]

00:29:04   us back when we were playing nintendo games when you win the Rumble Pak was [TS]

00:29:08   new [TS]

00:29:09   it's sort of like that where it's a different it's a different response [TS]

00:29:12   mechanism but maybe there isn't a force touch on the phone but there to have a [TS]

00:29:18   good vibration motors already in there as a couple people tweeting about this [TS]

00:29:21   like they make it so you can feel in your robe over certain things I don't [TS]

00:29:24   think they're going to put a different physical thing that Shakespeare phone [TS]

00:29:28   inside the thought I think it's gonna be one thing that Shakespeare phone maybe [TS]

00:29:31   that will be changed slightly to give different kinds of feedback Minnesota's [TS]

00:29:34   can be one thing it makes your phone vibrate when you put it on silent the [TS]

00:29:37   thing that you know that's going to do any kind of haptic feedback that doesn't [TS]

00:29:42   require any you know anything more than just a plain old touch entered the force [TS]

00:29:46   sensor the whole point of that is to give a more accurate [TS]

00:29:50   reading of how hard you're pressing on the screen more I hear that see how much [TS]

00:29:53   your fingers switches which i think is not the best way to do that so if [TS]

00:29:57   they're going to build that then they're gonna put a little sensors in there has [TS]

00:30:02   to be a combination of hard depressing and now we can press you back by the [TS]

00:30:08   little whatever little thing they have in the phone and yeah I have to see what [TS]

00:30:15   they decide to do with its type of thing we have to be careful it's because you [TS]

00:30:20   usually don't get a chance to totally take a mulligan on a major input device [TS]

00:30:27   or whatever like double clicking whether that was a smart move or not really [TS]

00:30:33   difficult you can't go like three years into the Mac and say you know I double [TS]

00:30:36   click doesn't mean open anymore we changed our mind that there's no more [TS]

00:30:39   double click or double-click mean something entirely different in the [TS]

00:30:42   world of touch maybe get a little bit chance that you mentioned that the [TS]

00:30:45   gestures to drop then an iPad but those are her like someone thought that was a [TS]

00:30:48   good idea that's another one that kind of leaked out someone thought that was a [TS]

00:30:51   good idea but then other people's immediately realized if you try to play [TS]

00:30:53   fruit ninja with a do end up going back to the home screen all the time so their [TS]

00:30:56   solution was not let's not ship until we figure out how to make it work this [TS]

00:31:00   election was alright by the fault give it turned on if they want and it's a [TS]

00:31:04   shame because that gesture is so addictive on the iPad but you really [TS]

00:31:08   can't play for dinner so I don't know what to do that yeah I don't know I mean [TS]

00:31:13   I'm thinking you know the story here is probably very boring it is probably not [TS]

00:31:19   anything super clever it is probably for stocks is for stock shit advertised as [TS]

00:31:26   for stocks it is some kind of you know tertiary secondary click that will bring [TS]

00:31:32   up some kind of secondary tertiary function and there will be some kind of [TS]

00:31:37   API Texas this gesture I think that we're thinking I really think this is [TS]

00:31:43   just it's gonna be a feature added because they can't you know somebody at [TS]

00:31:48   Apple clearly really loves for stocks like somebody who who matters a lot [TS]

00:31:52   clearly loves and maybe it's multiple matter like what you see on the water [TS]

00:31:58   had to do they needed more more input methods like it on the watch it makes [TS]

00:32:02   sense I don't you know I i've obviously a lot I don't think it makes a lot of [TS]

00:32:07   sense in the trackpad and ask if it makes sense in just the MacBook one [TS]

00:32:12   track pad for fitness reasons okay although is it really like I've never [TS]

00:32:18   been to a bit like I was thinking my dog today that's where do all my thinking is [TS]

00:32:22   it really [TS]

00:32:23   dinner to have the whole linear actuator everything down there that I don't know [TS]

00:32:28   anyway doesn't matter you know putting it in all of the laptops [TS]

00:32:33   i think is there was maybe premature or or unwarranted but so far most of the [TS]

00:32:39   feedback from the youngsters as bill is like Marco is an old man and we all of [TS]

00:32:44   this better [TS]

00:32:45   yeah I guess this is my old man phase now being in my life that I think it is [TS]

00:32:49   not really because I think several years from now you'll be ok with it and you go [TS]

00:32:53   back and he's one of the ones that abundant moved in with your bro continue [TS]

00:32:56   like all about the whole thing tells down it's very possible I I said before [TS]

00:33:01   like I don't hate the four stocks trackpad I just think it's worse than [TS]

00:33:04   the current than the old one and I'm not going to not buy a new laptop ever again [TS]

00:33:09   to avoided but I'm certainly no I don't think I'm gonna love it when I have to [TS]

00:33:13   make changes just circle back to bang on the keyboard because I think that is a [TS]

00:33:16   more safe [TS]

00:33:18   readout for you to build your argument right well doesn't matter anyway so you [TS]

00:33:25   know the the addition to four for stocks obviously they're putting across all [TS]

00:33:28   product line I think this is maybe yet another thing that that kinda ties and [TS]

00:33:32   earlier which is like I think that this is really gonna be lost on so many [TS]

00:33:39   people I mean it's already you know I i've already think they've blown the [TS]

00:33:43   execution on the back side where you know making it a tertiary click is weird [TS]

00:33:49   making designing it in such a way that the Cliq feedback that you get feels [TS]

00:33:53   noticeably worse than the old button I think was a poor choice if they had a [TS]

00:33:58   choice they might not have who knows and on the phone if everything we're hearing [TS]

00:34:03   from various you know tips sources is correct that it is just like a [TS]

00:34:09   right-click and its [TS]

00:34:10   you know another another level of interaction of you gotta go around like [TS]

00:34:14   shoving everything on the screen to see what I can do it that's the kind of [TS]

00:34:18   sucks like I it'll it'll be useful for games and for it like there's a [TS]

00:34:23   discussion on this on this week will into that both but because he was a [TS]

00:34:28   parade last week and it was very good and they're putting into this can be [TS]

00:34:32   useful for games of having like a different way for the first person to [TS]

00:34:36   have the test your strength game to try to get people to punch through their [TS]

00:34:39   phone screens you know press harder all you know you haven't done yet keep going [TS]

00:34:43   yeah it's probably really easy to max out the sensor so I guess you can't do [TS]

00:34:46   that but that'd be fun [TS]

00:34:47   well also if Apple enforces thereafter rules anymore to the big if there is a [TS]

00:34:55   rule against apps that encourage people to damage their devices I think it'll be [TS]

00:35:00   pretty easy to max out the four sensors so I don't think you may like that [TS]

00:35:03   anyway I'll people try but yes so you know I think it's going to be a really [TS]

00:35:09   kind of boring a new feature that's not gonna set the world on fire in the same [TS]

00:35:15   way that the Mac for stocks trackpads have been I still think I give it the [TS]

00:35:19   easy to do even if they can't figure out a use for it yet I think there is a [TS]

00:35:24   potential use for it and as long as they don't go hog wild about the making like [TS]

00:35:28   every screen that's part of the OS has every control has something you've been [TS]

00:35:32   forced touching can't be like mystery meat navigation can be like playing [TS]

00:35:36   mystery after be like this do I double tap this to a long press it do it for us [TS]

00:35:40   touch it it's really really need to figure out what they're going to do with [TS]

00:35:45   it in their apps anyway and then the third parties can dig their own graves [TS]

00:35:48   they want to have mark wants to have my go you don't know you have to go into [TS]

00:35:52   settings and don't tap the switch but forced touches like no one's gonna do [TS]

00:35:57   that and they do that their own stupid fault so they make the ABI open enough [TS]

00:36:01   that you can do that now it's like oh you got a long process control you can [TS]

00:36:03   just tap it would mean long president long dresses but you know they can do [TS]

00:36:07   the Apple needs to set the example by just using it and I think I did OK on [TS]

00:36:12   the bike like fast forward and rewind to the video thing or QuickTime player that [TS]

00:36:17   is a very specific very focused use of force touch [TS]

00:36:20   that is not like we're defining a new language you and every app going to a [TS]

00:36:24   Finder window and press down it will do man on the window your console slide to [TS]

00:36:28   the left to the right they didn't do that they're so I think it's just you [TS]

00:36:32   know finding that one or two places where you can use it actually is kinda [TS]

00:36:35   cool and not looking at other options saying we're going to use force touch [TS]

00:36:39   like if you find yourself doing that you're probably doing it wrong [TS]

00:36:42   this week is Warby Parker worry Parker believes that prescription glasses [TS]

00:36:48   simply should not cost $300 or more they bypass the traditional channels and sell [TS]

00:36:54   high quality better-looking prescription eyeglasses online at a fraction of the [TS]

00:36:58   usual retail prices starting at just $95 [TS]

00:37:02   Warby Parker dot com slash ATP see more there is under vintage-inspired with a [TS]

00:37:07   contemporary twist every Paris custom fit with anti-reflective anti-glare [TS]

00:37:12   polycarbonate prescription lenses and every parent comes with a very nice hard [TS]

00:37:16   case and cleaning cloth [TS]

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00:37:21   progressive lenses starting at just 295 including the frame's lenses have a [TS]

00:37:26   distance to the top and a transition to a reading land near the bottom and these [TS]

00:37:30   are digital free form progressive is the most advanced technology with higher [TS]

00:37:34   precision a larger television than traditional progressive lenses now [TS]

00:37:38   buying glasses online something it would be very risky how would you know when [TS]

00:37:42   they'll fit how they look on you worry Parker has you covered [TS]

00:37:46   first of other website has a very helpful tool to use your computer's [TS]

00:37:49   webcam to give you a preview of how the glasses will look on your face even help [TS]

00:37:53   you measure your eyes and face to get the fit exactly right but the best part [TS]

00:37:56   is their home tryin program you can borrow up to five pairs of glasses [TS]

00:38:00   risk-free that they will ship to you also for free you can try them on the [TS]

00:38:05   comfort of your own home for five days then you could send them back with a [TS]

00:38:09   prepaid return label again free and there's no obligation to buy still free [TS]

00:38:14   so check out the home trying to program it is awesome they also offer [TS]

00:38:18   prescription and non-prescription polarized sunglasses and this is a great [TS]

00:38:22   price even for the non-prescription one believes me now worry Parker also [TS]

00:38:26   believes in giving back to the world for every pair of glasses they sell to give [TS]

00:38:30   another pair to somebody in need through various vision charities [TS]

00:38:33   around the world go to Warby Parker dot com slash ATP and check out their great [TS]

00:38:38   selection of premium quality affordable I wear layers of a home trunk it risk [TS]

00:38:43   free and we I think all three of us have in ourselves or family members who [TS]

00:38:48   abused [TS]

00:38:49   glasses and are very happy with them it is great everyone loved or Parker who [TS]

00:38:54   uses them check it out [TS]

00:38:56   worry Parker dot com slash ATP thanks a lot to worry Parker sponsoring our show [TS]

00:39:00   ok so by the time most people have heard this news is going to be a week or two [TS]

00:39:06   old but a little while ago there was a really kind of ugly article posted by [TS]

00:39:15   the New York Times about Amazon and there for what it's like to work their [TS]

00:39:20   their company culture and their hiring practices and it made a pretty big [TS]

00:39:24   splash and the shorter version the article was it's terrible to work there [TS]

00:39:28   but I don't know why I only had a chance to read about the first half of it and [TS]

00:39:33   even after having read that much I thought my goodness I would never ever [TS]

00:39:36   want to work at this place because among many other things I like to see my [TS]

00:39:40   family once every sixteen years I don't know John how would you summarize this [TS]

00:39:45   and what did I leave out cuz I know that there was a lot this article it was long [TS]

00:39:50   so the badness about Amazon is basically that they expect you to dedicate your [TS]

00:39:55   mind body and soul to the company to work very long hours to put your job [TS]

00:40:00   before your family and your health and the rest of your life to just really you [TS]

00:40:05   know sort of in full throttle mode all the time for the company and if you [TS]

00:40:11   can't do that if you're not super Spartan not able to do a million things [TS]

00:40:15   at once and have lots of work keep nine-year then you're not you know that [TS]

00:40:18   the ideas like that Amazon is demanding place to work they want don't want the [TS]

00:40:22   smartest people who get the most done and that the best hardest workers and [TS]

00:40:27   they're very you know try to make it could they were probably like a culture [TS]

00:40:31   of excellence where they do the thing where they rank everybody and push out [TS]

00:40:35   the low performers to make room for supposedly the new people [TS]

00:40:39   and the New York Times story was just our story after story of how that you [TS]

00:40:45   know what people think I was work-life balance is just so far out of kilter at [TS]

00:40:49   Amazon all sorts of stories about people being asked to do things that are just [TS]

00:40:53   you know beyond the pale for the purposes of the work being told [TS]

00:40:56   explicitly that work has to be more important than their family working very [TS]

00:41:00   long hours and just all sorts of stuff like that and you know the flip side of [TS]

00:41:05   it i think thats New York Times story was the according to someone some of [TS]

00:41:09   your time to be there was the story that got them the highest number of comments [TS]

00:41:13   ever in a New York Times dogs everyone who either currently works on Amazon the [TS]

00:41:17   Amazon want to say I you know here's my story working on either I have my own [TS]

00:41:21   our stories or I worked there and it wasn't like that at all or I worked [TS]

00:41:26   there in my group was good but I know other groups that we're like this [TS]

00:41:29   lots of people and that is the new york times but everywhere on the web are [TS]

00:41:33   throwing in their own stories about amazon has a big company a lot of people [TS]

00:41:38   that work there tonight think the most interesting part of this well I guess if [TS]

00:41:44   you didn't know this is what it was like an Amazon and by the way this is what [TS]

00:41:48   it's like in a lot of companies also particularly startups although it's a [TS]

00:41:52   little bit more appropriate for it to be that way and starts because the startup [TS]

00:41:55   it's like lots of hard work but also potentially lots of water as Amazon so [TS]

00:41:59   big that at this point you could work yourself to death and it's not like [TS]

00:42:02   you're going to be multi millionaire of your stock options in a few years [TS]

00:42:06   whereas in a startup you have a vanishingly small chance of doing that [TS]

00:42:10   but at least it's a chance that's often overstated I know but it like it's made [TS]

00:42:16   90 hoping Amazon just operating as if it's like oh you're gonna get all these [TS]

00:42:19   options this doctrine Bubba blah but that's like if you're gonna work [TS]

00:42:23   yourself to death for companies make it be your startup like the start but you [TS]

00:42:27   founded that you have equity in that you're going to get rich off of this [TS]

00:42:31   exceeds your gonna be around if it fails that i think is the only sort of [TS]

00:42:35   reasonable way and even that is probably not a good idea because almost all [TS]

00:42:39   startups fail and so you know but if you want to give it to run that is the thing [TS]

00:42:43   to do your company your thing I'm not gonna be your company you're probably [TS]

00:42:47   not gonna get richer [TS]

00:42:48   stock probably don't work is there any way some people are working hard some [TS]

00:42:51   people like that some people thrive in that some people don't have to buy me [TS]

00:42:54   some people do want to dedicate themselves to their job i'm suppose two [TS]

00:42:57   sides to this story here depending on how you look at it but the most [TS]

00:43:01   interesting part was the reaction you know that's going to damage control [TS]

00:43:05   because they're going to have a difficulty recruiting is now everyone [TS]

00:43:07   thinks Amazon is a terrible sweatshop which by the way it is probably an [TS]

00:43:11   especially much more so for a blue-collar workers rather the white [TS]

00:43:14   collar people are writing their color their website or whatever and no one [TS]

00:43:17   seems to care about that but anyway putting that aside how do you pronounce [TS]

00:43:22   his last name pesos pesos I can never get a right anyway Jeff Bezos CEO Amazon [TS]

00:43:28   put out the statement and the little things I pulled from it is these two [TS]

00:43:33   little passengers I don't recognize this Amazon the Amazon as described the new [TS]

00:43:37   york times this article doesn't describe the Amazon I know and I love that aspect [TS]

00:43:42   of this thing that he's writing because all he's doing is restating the problem [TS]

00:43:46   I am totally sure that he doesn't recognize that Amazon begins his [TS]

00:43:50   experience at Amazon for the CEO is not like this at all he works himself to [TS]

00:43:55   death but he's the CEO he stands to gain the most from it and he's working like [TS]

00:43:59   crazy because he's a workaholic and that's what he likes to do his work life [TS]

00:44:02   balance is exactly the way he wants it like this is what he made himself of [TS]

00:44:06   course he doesn't recognize Amazon you don't recognize them because you're not [TS]

00:44:09   a lowly Amazon employee being told the work yourself to death for no pay off [TS]

00:44:14   your multi-millionaire who is a workaholic like a on muscular Steve Jobs [TS]

00:44:18   made other people because that's what's in them and they're driven to do that [TS]

00:44:21   and I'm sure there are employees who are like that as well then I can get there [TS]

00:44:25   again some people just thrive in that type of atmosphere but the reason this [TS]

00:44:29   works as a New York Times story is most people do not thrive in that atmosphere [TS]

00:44:32   into most people it reads like a horror story and so you read and go oh my gosh [TS]

00:44:36   I can't believe what it's like now I now if I ever had an idea that was gonna [TS]

00:44:40   cram as I'm definitely not going to work there now because I read this article in [TS]

00:44:43   things that are happening that's like my nightmare of the worst possible job I [TS]

00:44:47   could ever have [TS]

00:44:47   most people are gonna have that attitude and that's why I would try to fight the [TS]

00:44:51   basis I want to sit down and said look I don't know a lot about a lot of people [TS]

00:44:55   but I think I know a little bit but this point about [TS]

00:44:58   professional programmers and if ever there was an employ a less inclined to [TS]

00:45:04   be into the sort of gun ho just work work work stay in the office at late [TS]

00:45:12   hours grinding grinding grinding it is the programmer for a giant fortune 500 [TS]

00:45:18   company because programming i think is one of those type of things where bomber [TS]

00:45:23   bomber herbicide will put a link in that it has one of those things where you [TS]

00:45:29   can't like the harder you work the more you grind the worst you program like you [TS]

00:45:34   have to have time that rest to think about things you have to walk the dog [TS]

00:45:37   like Marco said you have to take a shower like that's where you actually [TS]

00:45:40   solve all your program powers in the shower while you're walking the dog [TS]

00:45:43   while you're sleeping soon as you wake up in the morning it's in your head if [TS]

00:45:47   you stay late one night and try to work on this thing work work work work work [TS]

00:45:50   like five extra hours there's no there's no point specifically for programming [TS]

00:45:56   and if they're not that everyone the higher as a programmer but if you're [TS]

00:45:59   going to say we only want you to work here if you thrive in this type of [TS]

00:46:02   atmosphere you're gonna be missing out on a lot of really really great programs [TS]

00:46:07   because in my experience great programmers tend to be less receptive to [TS]

00:46:13   that type of work environment so it's not it's not conducive to good [TS]

00:46:16   programming for example sales people who wanted the world's best sales person I [TS]

00:46:20   bet they do thrive in this type of my own because it sells all dogs go go go [TS]

00:46:24   right and that you know they're go-getters they can get the job done [TS]

00:46:27   they're gonna put in long hours to do the business travel all the stuff that's [TS]

00:46:31   not how programming work so I don't know that all the positions that they're [TS]

00:46:33   filling and marketing and then other things that are outside engineering and [TS]

00:46:37   again setting aside the blue collar workers that are being exploited in the [TS]

00:46:40   factories packing back in just 100 degree heat in a building with air [TS]

00:46:43   conditioning work for Amazon thoughtfully provides ambulances outside [TS]

00:46:46   so when the workers dropped the head are drop dead but collapse on the line there [TS]

00:46:51   with outside to the ambulance that that is a whole separate issue and that is [TS]

00:46:55   terrible so really just put this in perspective we're talking about is like [TS]

00:46:58   highly-paid programmers being asked not to see their kids not people being asked [TS]

00:47:02   to working under degree heat and a factory and collapsing from the heat and [TS]

00:47:06   being taken to company-sponsored am going [TS]

00:47:08   but anyway I think it's just a bad business this is not the way you should [TS]

00:47:13   run a company of Amazon size is not the way you should manage organization that [TS]

00:47:18   is focused on engineering and they would say back to me [TS]

00:47:22   our company's incredibly successful look at the amazing things that he done where [TS]

00:47:26   a giant retailer we do all these things like aspirin easy to do you think your [TS]

00:47:30   greatest services in the reason we're like that is because we have decided to [TS]

00:47:33   and I would say no you do that because despite that attitude than ever to [TS]

00:47:37   making recreated creativity and can learn that the sides problems then we go [TS]

00:47:40   back and forth in the end because he owned the company and cast but we played [TS]

00:47:46   out that little thing you have many podcasts that's right have multiple [TS]

00:47:50   broadcast thank you Jeff [TS]

00:47:52   undersell yourself right now were those my thoughts coming out of this and so I [TS]

00:47:58   think it's good for stories like this to be in the media to sort of raise [TS]

00:48:01   awareness of this Marcos ever been in a job like this but I don't think I've [TS]

00:48:05   ever been a job like that but I've been I've been Jason two jobs like this I've [TS]

00:48:09   known people in jobs like as I've seen parts of organizations that I've been in [TS]

00:48:13   that are like this and it really is my worst nightmare like I would never want [TS]

00:48:16   a job like this and I know a lot of people who who wouldn't they could [TS]

00:48:22   possibly happen in this thing about hiring engineers and programmers they [TS]

00:48:25   can get work elsewhere so if you don't have a stock that is going to have the [TS]

00:48:31   potential to skyrocket in the near future [TS]

00:48:33   can be difficult to track those people if your gonna work to make this my first [TS]

00:48:37   job at a school was working for a company that actually meet slot machines [TS]

00:48:44   for Native American casinos in Oklahoma and the company at the time was gonna [TS]

00:48:51   maybe 10 or 15 developers and they were all they were all acts EA folks like [TS]

00:48:58   well there they were part of a company that was bought by EA EA ruined it is he [TS]

00:49:02   is off to do and so these word I generally there were no women their time [TS]

00:49:09   that we're developers so they're all guys they were typically in their late [TS]

00:49:12   thirties early forties generally speaking completely single [TS]

00:49:15   and generally speaking didn't really have a whole lot else to do other than [TS]

00:49:21   work in not that they weren't great great great guys and I don't mean that [TS]

00:49:24   disparagingly is the fact the matter was they didn't have spouses or children in [TS]

00:49:30   many of them didn't seem to have a whole lot of hobbies other than work and so [TS]

00:49:34   they worked constantly just constantly and here was I came in for Ashley's [TS]

00:49:40   right out of school and I didn't want to work constantly I didn't want to work [TS]

00:49:46   non-stop in my left the company mostly because I had been asked to do this [TS]

00:49:53   really kind of impossible project for trade show and I worked I i dont member [TS]

00:49:59   now but i wanna say was 11 or 12 hours a day for a month or two [TS]

00:50:02   including most weekend days trying to get this thing to work and eventually [TS]

00:50:06   did get it to work and then the trade show came and they were preparing [TS]

00:50:12   everything they were going to show and then just cited you know what we're not [TS]

00:50:15   gonna show that after all and I was furious I was beyond furious because [TS]

00:50:21   here was I busted my butt for all that time and it was like well we don't need [TS]

00:50:25   it after I think so and I don't know maybe that makes me a millennia old in [TS]

00:50:30   the disparaging way maybe that makes me not a team player but I just thought it [TS]

00:50:34   was ridiculous that here was I couldn't do any of the things I wanted to do for [TS]

00:50:38   a month and then they just up and decided oh yeah we don't need that after [TS]

00:50:42   all and I left the company you should not get a job in the games industry [TS]

00:50:45   totally absolutely right you're absolutely right but I know any better [TS]

00:50:50   the time yeah that's part part of that I think again speaking to programming [TS]

00:50:55   which is the profession that I think we're almost million with even Marco [TS]

00:50:59   large companies is that that experience of having like a miniature version of [TS]

00:51:05   the game developers call crunch time where something needs a ship and people [TS]

00:51:11   everyone puts in long hours and it's all hands on deck I think every program goes [TS]

00:51:15   through that even if only on their own projects for like a fake artificial [TS]

00:51:19   deadlines they made for themselves but certainly in other companies where you [TS]

00:51:22   have a software product release or trade show or something and everyone is [TS]

00:51:25   killing themselves to to make a deadline that experience I think its formative [TS]

00:51:32   for programmers because it teaches you like it makes you it's difficult you [TS]

00:51:37   know it's probably the most grueling physical thing that programmers have to [TS]

00:51:41   do because programming is not a grueling physical job you know you're not [TS]

00:51:44   cracking rocks with a hammer all day you're pressing keys on the keyboard and [TS]

00:51:47   sitting in a chair right but it does take a toll on you in terms of lack of [TS]

00:51:50   sleep or even just sitting in a chair all day or not eating well and you know [TS]

00:51:54   nevermind senior family whatever they don't have that you're just you know a [TS]

00:51:58   single person right out of college what I think you learn from that is you [TS]

00:52:03   reflect on it after the experience which Oakley and whatever trade show whatever [TS]

00:52:06   you say what is it about the piece of software that we were creating together [TS]

00:52:13   that made it so difficult to do do the things we want to do like how you know [TS]

00:52:20   it's disturbing cliche that you see all the posters work smarter not harder but [TS]

00:52:24   in programming like they've actually something behind that which is if you [TS]

00:52:31   had done you're all your work differently how would it have made your [TS]

00:52:34   later work easier if you you know and that's that's basically programming it's [TS]

00:52:38   like you write the program then you realize how you should have written in [TS]

00:52:40   the next time if you're lucky enough to write a similar program you right in the [TS]

00:52:43   better way and then you realize how you shouldn't have any differently in the [TS]

00:52:46   next time you realize you have made it easy to change along these axes but did [TS]

00:52:51   not realize that this other axis was the one that is going to change the long as [TS]

00:52:54   it is really hard to change in that way like that's all programming is doing [TS]

00:52:57   something and realizing how you could have done it differently to make the [TS]

00:53:00   future changes that you have to make for whatever reason easier to make it and so [TS]

00:53:04   crunch time and that you know that hellish experience of just having to sit [TS]

00:53:09   there and just grind yourself into dust to try to get work done [TS]

00:53:12   teaches you how to do your job better a little bit but I think it also teaches [TS]

00:53:16   you [TS]

00:53:17   how incredibly inefficient it is to bang your head against that wall that how if [TS]

00:53:20   you add nearly got home at a reasonable hour had a full night's sleep becoming [TS]

00:53:23   the next morning you to solve these problems faster and better I think [TS]

00:53:26   that's another thing you learned during crunch and that gets back to the this [TS]

00:53:29   article that I think I don't even know is related to the Amazon thing I [TS]

00:53:32   remember a song about these links in here but some dust in moscow muscovites [TS]

00:53:36   talking about how the 40 hour work week is not a you know he says it's not a [TS]

00:53:43   combat great compromise between capitalism in hedonism it's actually a [TS]

00:53:48   carefully considered outcome according from a thing of profit maximizing [TS]

00:53:52   research by Henry Ford and early 20th century basically if you if you during [TS]

00:53:56   this experiment to say hey if we with work ppl eighties our 80 hours a week [TS]

00:54:00   versus 10 hours of agrees 20 like there is a maximum where you get the most [TS]

00:54:04   productivity out of people who worked on my crazy they get tired they get sloppy [TS]

00:54:07   they get angry they do worse work they're less productive and of course if [TS]

00:54:10   you have them work one hour week your output is trying to find out that forty [TS]

00:54:15   hours as some magic numbers or whatever but you're trying to find that that the [TS]

00:54:18   maximum where you get the most productivity out of people on a [TS]

00:54:22   sustained basis if you drive people like dogs maybe you'll get extra productivity [TS]

00:54:27   out of them but you pay for it later and if you want to have a sustained business [TS]

00:54:31   like maybe that's what you doin starts like there will be no sustained business [TS]

00:54:33   if these two weeks leading up to this trade show so you got yourself a deal to [TS]

00:54:37   trade show again I would say make sure you kill yourself for potential payoff [TS]

00:54:40   that's going to benefit you not somebody else because it's not worth killing [TS]

00:54:44   yourself or somebody else but you want to find a way to get the most out of [TS]

00:54:51   people on a sustained basis and usually that ends up being a work week in a work [TS]

00:54:59   environment especially for programming it does not look scary from the outside [TS]

00:55:03   but you work reasonable hours that you get a good nights that you get exercise [TS]

00:55:06   the right that is the only way in any human endeavor to have sustained [TS]

00:55:09   productivity out of people and programmers are not like people breaking [TS]

00:55:13   rocks with hammers in that if you grind one of them into dust and they leave the [TS]

00:55:19   company with RSI have a nervous breakdown [TS]

00:55:21   down or do something else terrible it's not so easy to just find another one is [TS]

00:55:26   not just like a warm body in a cherry just need balance for your giant barge [TS]

00:55:29   right it's supposedly a highly skilled job and so if you're grinding up those [TS]

00:55:34   workers and spitting them out [TS]

00:55:36   that's even worse than if you're doing the same thing it's worse economically [TS]

00:55:40   if not morally speaking and doing the same thing for a position where people [TS]

00:55:44   get disgruntled need you can easily find new applicants for it [TS]

00:55:46   well so that's something that I i think you I i think that actually is part of [TS]

00:55:54   the case that the industry does have so many like you know the right thing to do [TS]

00:56:00   for our perspective because the three of us are all pretty experienced [TS]

00:56:05   programmers who are approaching middle age who would like to think are wise and [TS]

00:56:11   care about spending time with their families right and so we are the ones [TS]

00:56:15   saying you know to do things with higher quality you should really have wiser [TS]

00:56:21   older programmers who are more experienced who will therefore work way [TS]

00:56:25   more efficiently than young crappy programmers who were being worked 80 [TS]

00:56:30   hours a week but there are so many of those young programmers willing to go [TS]

00:56:35   with companies like Amazon which by the way I mean this story to me was nothing [TS]

00:56:39   new because I've heard horror stories about how horrible working for Amazon is [TS]

00:56:43   four years I don't I don't think this is a surprise to anybody who's ever paid [TS]

00:56:47   attention to Amazon and and people who work there but I think there's enough [TS]

00:56:52   people willing to go into this business to go work for a big company or start [TS]

00:56:57   there there's enough input of new new computer science graduates or new people [TS]

00:57:03   who are who are teaching as a programmer who want a job all over the world [TS]

00:57:06   there's enough of these people coming in it's kinda like the entertainment [TS]

00:57:09   business where the the employers are able to abuse and and burn people out [TS]

00:57:16   and they will do this because there is there still a huge supply you know the [TS]

00:57:20   way they always complain and and make much noise about how there's a shortage [TS]

00:57:24   of good programmers in this country is I think mostly BS I think it's totally [TS]

00:57:28   true there is a shortage of good program [TS]

00:57:31   like your analogy the entertainment history is exactly right but that's why [TS]

00:57:37   the game that's why games development is so bad because everybody wants to be a [TS]

00:57:41   game developer hey doesn't that sound fun and companies take advantage of that [TS]

00:57:44   enthusiasm you know there's a million applicants for this thing because you [TS]

00:57:48   get to be a game developer you get to make games isn't that awesome now the [TS]

00:57:51   ground you into Dustin when you burn out there is another enthusiastic person [TS]

00:57:54   games developer games are awesome of grandeur but Amazon is not an [TS]

00:57:59   entertainment company Amazon I don't think has that kind of drugs and then [TS]

00:58:03   you just left with the generic drug I want to be in the tech industry which is [TS]

00:58:07   better than you know you know working in the mailroom at a foreign country [TS]

00:58:12   company and certainly pays better but it's nothing too big to the games [TS]

00:58:16   industry like you said the entertainment history I want to be in TV I want to be [TS]

00:58:19   in movies like that is a perfect opportunity to grind up enthusiastic [TS]

00:58:23   naive people that I just think the supply of programmers is it's more [TS]

00:58:27   difficult to find it a good program is now maybe emily has the right strategy [TS]

00:58:31   we would rather grind into dust tons of programmers and not even use them the [TS]

00:58:37   most efficiently and the ones that survive will learn really hard lessons [TS]

00:58:41   and become amazing you know efficient people in the ones that don't oh well [TS]

00:58:45   I'll even get a job someplace else but was just scooped up a new set of new [TS]

00:58:48   graduates may be that an aggregate gives them better throughput than trying to [TS]

00:58:53   find programmers and give them a nice environment worker I don't know because [TS]

00:58:58   Google seems to me [TS]

00:58:59   takes the other attitude where they try to give you know they try not to work [TS]

00:59:03   people to death they try to give people you know room to figure out what it is [TS]

00:59:08   they're going to do and it's like a nice work environment and Apple kinda seems [TS]

00:59:11   in the middle where they don't tell you what they're doing but from my [TS]

00:59:13   understanding of the people I work super duper hard I worry that Apple's grinding [TS]

00:59:17   them up gently tell because I think the screens are modeled by whatever bro a [TS]

00:59:23   bit and an apple that the reasonable thing to do it is because they're more [TS]

00:59:26   like entertainment i dont is working to take ensure I work for Apple iMac [TS]

00:59:30   iPhones [TS]

00:59:30   well i i think that used to be the case for a long time but I think now they're [TS]

00:59:36   having a really big problem attracting and retaining good talent and has lots [TS]

00:59:41   of reasons for this and one of them i think is this problem [TS]

00:59:44   of they do work people really hard for me from what we've heard it sounds like [TS]

00:59:48   they really do work people harder than what I would consider healthy and they [TS]

00:59:54   consider that ok from from level all the way to the top and so this is the kind [TS]

01:00:00   of thing like once workaholic sets into a company's culture it never leaves that [TS]

01:00:06   is something that is so incredibly difficult or impossible to ever rollback [TS]

01:00:10   it only ever gets its like being tough on crime you know that politicians can [TS]

01:00:15   ever be less tough-on-crime [TS]

01:00:16   it's the same thing like there's there's so many factors that just encourage it [TS]

01:00:21   to build upon itself and to increase the workaholic I'm rather than ever [TS]

01:00:26   Tony back and it's so that in Apple's case you know it's pretty clear from [TS]

01:00:32   anecdotes from the executives all the way down to the employees that this is [TS]

01:00:37   your company works and I don't think that's ever going to go away and that is [TS]

01:00:42   that is one of the problems that is going to make it hard for Apple to [TS]

01:00:45   attract and retain good talent over time and you know and you mentioned a few [TS]

01:00:50   times so far John you mentioned that startups are kind of exempt from this [TS]

01:00:54   and i dont I don't necessarily think that's true now not exempt but it's a [TS]

01:00:59   better fit like that like to get a start about the ground is it's one of those [TS]

01:01:04   activities that you gonna have to work it out to death but it's not you know [TS]

01:01:07   it's not sustain doesn't type of thing where it's like this is not sustainable [TS]

01:01:10   we can run a company this way if we really want to have sustained [TS]

01:01:13   productivity needs to do expedient to start of its like sustained productivity [TS]

01:01:16   of what we're gonna be out of business in two weeks if we don't do this thing [TS]

01:01:21   you get this feature ready for the treasure which again is why most arms [TS]

01:01:23   fell because you try really hard to do this thing it's you know it's a young [TS]

01:01:26   man's game it's very short period of time there's a clear thing we're gonna [TS]

01:01:30   try to do this thing and the time happen that you have exit strategies like it is [TS]

01:01:35   not like I'm going to work in his company for thirty years and this is for [TS]

01:01:39   thirty years I'm gonna act as a time in the first six months of a start like [TS]

01:01:43   that's why I think you have to match the sort of culture and work ethic and [TS]

01:01:47   amount of effort to the potential reward and to the expected time horizon so I'm [TS]

01:01:52   not saying it's like good and starts kissing you know starts grind grind [TS]

01:01:55   people up and spit them out as well but that's what started so far it is totally [TS]

01:01:59   inappropriate for a company the size of Amazon Inc [TS]

01:02:02   well but you have to nip that in the bud early because it builds over time [TS]

01:02:06   because like startups typically take on the the the work culture of their [TS]

01:02:13   founders like that that is just happen starts off as the founders as they grow [TS]

01:02:17   the company still works the way the founders set it in motion to work either [TS]

01:02:21   intentionally or not and so I've been fortunate that that my jobs have you [TS]

01:02:27   know I've had crunch time here and there but it's never been the kind of thing [TS]

01:02:32   that I hear about from from other people like it from someone is really horrible [TS]

01:02:36   again companies or companies again it's never been that bad and and part of that [TS]

01:02:40   is because I've always stood up for myself and I like end and I've always [TS]

01:02:45   had I've always been at companies early enough to to have the ability to push [TS]

01:02:51   back a little bit and identify myself a little bit and you know it doesn't [TS]

01:02:54   always work but most of the time I was it will do it and this is the kind of [TS]

01:02:58   thing that you can't just say well you know this one time we gotta push really [TS]

01:03:03   hard but then then we're going to we're gonna be healthy and then we'll hire [TS]

01:03:07   more help or whatever early because in reality the the later time over gonna [TS]

01:03:12   we're gonna do this temporarily but then we're going to fix it that's how I'm [TS]

01:03:15   never comes because after you finish with this horrible death race there's [TS]

01:03:20   another one that comes up right afterwards but it does come I get things [TS]

01:03:24   in the natural life cycle company is the founders they get the start about the [TS]

01:03:27   ground have to be workaholics otherwise you don't succeed because that's the [TS]

01:03:30   nature of the beast there but then I think most companies settle into sort of [TS]

01:03:34   that happy middle aged where the company cars out places for people who just want [TS]

01:03:39   to show up and you know punch the clock and do a boring job and not be too [TS]

01:03:44   stressed about it or whatever that's what happens when companies have bigger [TS]

01:03:48   turnout than most companies get this phenomenon of gigantic companies that [TS]

01:03:52   are still run quote-unquote like startups where there [TS]

01:03:55   r you know hungry and working their place it at this I think a fairly modern [TS]

01:04:00   phenomenon I guess you know sweatshops is the oldest slavery in sweatshops the [TS]

01:04:05   oldest form of like we're just gonna grab people up but in the sort of in our [TS]

01:04:09   lifetimes the trajectory was if your startup at all you gotta do it quickly [TS]

01:04:14   became a serious business where everything was much more relaxed and [TS]

01:04:19   that's why small companies came major lunch in the late nineties to thousands [TS]

01:04:23   of disruption and all that stuff and now I think the new normal but you're [TS]

01:04:28   reacting to is like always happens a stage disruptive startup started by [TS]

01:04:33   somewhere hot become successful because those guys work things out of death and [TS]

01:04:37   that workaholic retains control the company and other phenomenon that is [TS]

01:04:40   much more common in other news to you [TS]

01:04:41   retains control of the company and pushes that culture down and all the [TS]

01:04:45   employees and never let go because they're paranoid that they're gonna get [TS]

01:04:49   their lunch eaten by the next little disruptive startup how close we had been [TS]

01:04:53   that it started as a small everything he got fat and happy and then went from [TS]

01:04:58   baton happy with a giant you know Apple advanced research thing called Apple [TS]

01:05:03   about technology ATG art technology Group they were the point where they had [TS]

01:05:08   people doing like you know architecture astronaut stuff making up these grand [TS]

01:05:14   plans like open docx and Technology Group ATG tips to make any pie in the [TS]

01:05:20   sky things that people who had jobs that is going to be like an Apple iPhone just [TS]

01:05:23   hang around and think grand ideas and maybe noodle on a product or something [TS]

01:05:28   that might become a products and then Steve Jobs came back and said we can't [TS]

01:05:32   afford that we're going out of business [TS]

01:05:33   cut down to the bone and turned it back into a workaholic culture so that is a [TS]

01:05:37   weird you know Apple has a weird history anyway that is weird phenomena but I [TS]

01:05:40   think it's what you react to Marco is the the Amazon even like Iran must [TS]

01:05:47   PayPal test that kind of model where you never you never let the company get out [TS]

01:05:53   of start-up phase because that's how you get his rep didn't just no matter how [TS]

01:05:56   big you get even if you're as big as a man [TS]

01:05:58   Apple the way you survive is by continuing to act as if you're in a [TS]

01:06:03   startup but the but it's not in your not anymore and appropriate environment 22 [TS]

01:06:08   grand people up like that because you can have a company with 30,000 employees [TS]

01:06:12   all comes down to become multi-millionaires by the next quarter [TS]

01:06:15   if you just have these numbers that's not going to happen right that time in [TS]

01:06:18   the company's life is past its weird that when Apple had the second phase [TS]

01:06:21   they made a whole bunch of millionaires out of stock options or whatever but [TS]

01:06:24   again [TS]

01:06:24   ok started company 270 before now a successful almost go out of business but [TS]

01:06:30   not quite you know that's a tough lineup also you could almost go out of business [TS]

01:06:34   and become the biggest company in the world you make a whole bunch of new [TS]

01:06:36   millionaires and Apple did those people probably don't regret working in their [TS]

01:06:41   fingers to the bone during that phase but that i think is an aberration as a [TS]

01:06:44   good people working to the bone Amazon are not going to get the same pay offer [TS]

01:06:49   their effort of investment ran i mean and this is actually I mean most [TS]

01:06:54   startups that that come out of you know our industry you have to be like one of [TS]

01:07:00   the first I don't know five people who work there to really see like a massive [TS]

01:07:05   payoff in all likelihood you know I've had so many friends and so many [TS]

01:07:08   companies so many startups I know very few of them actually had a meaningful [TS]

01:07:13   payout from the stock options like it it just doesn't like the numbers are so far [TS]

01:07:18   against it not even close [TS]

01:07:21   like that shit like chances are you probably won't make anything for your [TS]

01:07:25   stock options and if you do make something from them [TS]

01:07:28   you you might make you know maybe an extra in the tens of thousands of [TS]

01:07:33   dollars which is nice but not necessarily worth working ourselves to [TS]

01:07:37   build for four years it's it's it doesn't usually work out the way they [TS]

01:07:42   promise and but it is like entertainment business like they know the people who [TS]

01:07:46   start service to people who funds are people who devised our lives they all [TS]

01:07:50   know that the previous promises there in the end they they sell people on this [TS]

01:07:55   promise and people come in thinking man to get stock options I'm gonna make a [TS]

01:07:59   ton of money and the fact is it doesn't usually work out that way unless you [TS]

01:08:04   unless you are one of the founders you know if you're one of the founders [TS]

01:08:08   alone enough stock to make it work pretty well [TS]

01:08:10   but if you come in as employee number forty or whatever you know the chances [TS]

01:08:15   are you're not gonna make a ton of money on that but you're still gonna be this [TS]

01:08:19   environment where it is insane workaholic awesome and everyone is [TS]

01:08:24   pressuring you to dedicate your life to the company in every waking hour and by [TS]

01:08:29   the way I don't think I've ever seen a startup fail because it didn't execute [TS]

01:08:33   quickly enough [TS]

01:08:35   have you ever seen that there are a lot of them sell for that reason but you [TS]

01:08:40   know I don't know what that means like he should have gone faster [TS]

01:08:43   well could you have done that this gets back to us talking about with like is it [TS]

01:08:47   actually more productive past a certain point is that you can do crunch and you [TS]

01:08:52   can for a certain period of time but you know you can go longer younger or [TS]

01:08:57   whatever let's not make any more now just here but at a certain point you get [TS]

01:09:03   massively diminishing returns and then negative returns here hoping to start up [TS]

01:09:09   a short enough that you don't reach that point but for big companies on a [TS]

01:09:13   sustained basis like you know what you're getting is like this started [TS]

01:09:18   failed to start was going to fail anyway as I can tell you the 17 reason to start [TS]

01:09:21   was gonna fail even if they had executed so he's easy to find out the reasons why [TS]

01:09:27   a startup could fail but started as the one type of business where sometimes it [TS]

01:09:31   really does matter if you'd actually been in that trade show is that the [TS]

01:09:34   company had indeed could have really changed you know the history of your [TS]

01:09:37   company or if this demo two important investor had gone better you would have [TS]

01:09:42   got their round of funding instead you didn't like that's the life of the start [TS]

01:09:45   of it always is balancing on a razor's edge of something I think that is a real [TS]

01:09:50   thing happening then [TS]

01:09:51   it's just that no one really knows you know a lot of a serendipity lot of it as [TS]

01:09:56   a lot of it is right place right time lot of things you can't control but as [TS]

01:10:01   far as I've been able to determine the successful strategy starts it's really [TS]

01:10:04   really difficult to to succeed as a start up with this super laid back [TS]

01:10:09   attitude unless you start off with basically unlimited funds are really [TS]

01:10:14   long runway and a lot of money and forever but for the most part starting [TS]

01:10:18   from zero you really do have to work hard for a short period of time and i [TS]

01:10:22   think that the all-star phenomenon you brought the is lots of small companies [TS]

01:10:27   trying bunch of ideas and finding out assess possible with a working I guess [TS]

01:10:31   the whole thing and so try to disembark ok that's right now the startup try to [TS]

01:10:35   stand america traded the pivot where you're trying to pretend you're the same [TS]

01:10:38   company really started to same time as you don't want to find out three years [TS]

01:10:44   later that your idea doesn't work you want to find out ASAP because you can't [TS]

01:10:47   cruncher three years yeah you know the thing to me is in my personal opinion [TS]

01:10:52   the best approach is whatever your job maybe just work really really hard [TS]

01:10:59   coming out of school work in in early on your career work really hard to [TS]

01:11:04   establish yourself and get yourself to the position that you have me you are [TS]

01:11:08   making enough money that you are comfortable that could mean $30,000 it [TS]

01:11:13   could be $100,000 it could be $300,000 agree three million dollars what however [TS]

01:11:18   you define comfortable get too comfortable and once you're there then [TS]

01:11:24   you really shouldn't have to do a death march ever again and if you very rarely [TS]

01:11:30   I worked very hard for a very long to me a very long time given how old I am and [TS]

01:11:36   I'm now at a company that I rarely have to do a death march I could probably [TS]

01:11:42   work harder I could probably make more money I could probably even find a [TS]

01:11:46   different job where I could work harder still and make more money still but in [TS]

01:11:50   the end of the day we are comfortable in I am able to pretty reliably put in [TS]

01:11:54   about 45 hours a week and then come home to my family and to me anyway that's [TS]

01:11:59   more important I work so that I i can live I do not live to work and also [TS]

01:12:08   you're working so that you can crunch at home now because I i think i also truly [TS]

01:12:12   best analogy for the best but the sort of second front like it you just had a [TS]

01:12:16   school and you're really you wanna get your career establishing working hard [TS]

01:12:19   you job whatever it is make sure you're not working too hard make sure you note [TS]

01:12:22   be exploited then you have a kid and you realize how you can crunch time at home [TS]

01:12:25   to its called the infant twins are even more like that's the type of thing where [TS]

01:12:32   you feel again that you know your child is basically your startup times the [TS]

01:12:38   million right you are willing to crunch that the whole point like if you decide [TS]

01:12:41   to have children and this is what you gonna do you like it's super hard it's [TS]

01:12:44   going to be a lot of work in this crunch timing kids and it's not when the kid is [TS]

01:12:47   fifteen years although depending on the kid or whatever but yet so hard and you [TS]

01:12:51   will put in long hours and you will be you know at the end of the rope Europe [TS]

01:12:56   and going out of your mind but that's what you're signing up for when you have [TS]

01:13:00   a startup or have a kid or whatever but I think for most people that is a choice [TS]

01:13:04   they're making me feel like it is well worth it to do for their kids not so [TS]

01:13:08   much more that to do it for Amazon the doesn't care about them and will never [TS]

01:13:12   visit them on their old so in summary the best startup is a child Baltimore [TS]

01:13:17   start-up dependent and also I just like to point out to that end John III still [TS]

01:13:24   disagree on a lot of this I don't I don't agree with the assumption in our [TS]

01:13:29   industry that crunch time is required for a startup success because I have [TS]

01:13:35   seen many kind of examples to startups that have succeeded that do very well [TS]

01:13:39   that don't do crazy crunch time burnout a workaholic well let's put it this way [TS]

01:13:46   it is it is a common characteristic of stars that succeed whether it's [TS]

01:13:49   necessary and I guess it's not really necessary just so happened that it's [TS]

01:13:53   just a correlation [TS]

01:13:54   causation fact those ones are succeeding despite the crunch I'm going to believe [TS]

01:13:57   that but you have to say it's highly correlated like successful startups they [TS]

01:14:02   all have stories about trucks right she would you say it's sufficient but not [TS]

01:14:06   necessary I don't get it seems pretty darn strong like i I totally think it's [TS]

01:14:12   possible to see without it because again I think even more important than how [TS]

01:14:15   much you crunch is right idea right place right time right talents like [TS]

01:14:19   things some things you can control some things you can't control those are much [TS]

01:14:23   more important than how hard you work because the comment the common theme [TS]

01:14:27   that I think an all-star upstairs including the ones that fail is a bunch [TS]

01:14:30   of people working really hard it was not correlated with success is just like if [TS]

01:14:34   you're in a startup this is the way they're done I think what you're saying [TS]

01:14:36   is like if all the startups got like a big started conventional said let's all [TS]

01:14:40   agree it all starts in the entire world we're not gonna drive ourselves into the [TS]

01:14:44   ground with the habits of the same ratio I think they probably exactly the same [TS]

01:14:48   ratio successes and who the successes are makeshift around a little bit but [TS]

01:14:53   not in any significant way and it just it's just like it's like a race I give [TS]

01:14:58   everyone has been the race decided they were going to walk instead of run the [TS]

01:15:01   race would be slower but everyone else also they'll run you mean by can say I [TS]

01:15:06   don't think it's necessary to run to have a race if if we all just walked and [TS]

01:15:10   work on and we just said you can't have both feet off the ground at the same [TS]

01:15:13   time the results of the race would be the same but it's human nature you you [TS]

01:15:17   just wanna run even if you know you're tired faster I don't know this is [TS]

01:15:21   terrible and I just ate doesn't match what I seen like I've seen like to me [TS]

01:15:27   that the big crunch time is kind of like people who always talk about how busy [TS]

01:15:32   and stressed out they are it's like that it's like a voluntary take on of stress [TS]

01:15:38   and it is you it is almost always self-imposed and optional but you see [TS]

01:15:46   everyone else running don't you see everyone else running and you feel like [TS]

01:15:49   you have to run to and again if you feel like well if they were on a I wouldn't [TS]

01:15:52   be running but they are running so I feel like I have to run the question is [TS]

01:15:56   would you actually be like if you could run the experiment if you get a diverse [TS]

01:16:01   of people or something and like you said you guys aren't allowed to question you [TS]

01:16:04   guys are just like the productivity thing [TS]

01:16:06   wouldn't they be more productive if they had a good night's sleep but I think [TS]

01:16:09   they went for young company there are events and deadlines it was a [TS]

01:16:15   self-imposed not that that are significant enough they can make or [TS]

01:16:18   break the company is not true for a larger company and so by crunching you [TS]

01:16:23   can temporarily increase your productivity so you are it's like you [TS]

01:16:27   know juicing are taking steroids or whatever you are temporarily increasing [TS]

01:16:30   your productivity knowing full well maybe not knowing what you're gonna find [TS]

01:16:33   out that your productivity is going to fall off a cliff after a short period [TS]

01:16:36   time because the most important thing right now is who is ready in time for [TS]

01:16:40   the street Joe you know what [TS]

01:16:42   honestly I've never seen that I i've never seen a company that had to rush to [TS]

01:16:48   make a trade show or investor meeting or anything where that was actually really [TS]

01:16:53   gonna be a decision like usually either you have traction are you don't either [TS]

01:16:57   your product is you know is rooted in a good idea is to end his get its fine [TS]

01:17:01   audience or it isn't and usually it doesn't come down to one day 1 deadline [TS]

01:17:07   one meeting one presentation [TS]

01:17:08   not just one goal in life that you use your career temblor as an example like [TS]

01:17:12   you it may not have been to the crisis of conscience but there was a time early [TS]

01:17:16   on when you were worried about servers going down and you would get paged in [TS]

01:17:21   the middle of the night or whatever that's basically that's a work-life [TS]

01:17:23   balance that you would never accept now but had you not been there to fix some [TS]

01:17:28   icicle problem in the middle of the night or whatever and Tumblr got the [TS]

01:17:31   reputation for the side that was always down that could really affected you know [TS]

01:17:35   tumblr might not have taken office has lots of other sites that were similar to [TS]

01:17:38   Tumblr and what you know that type of thing of like oh it's you know it has [TS]

01:17:43   bugs are it's always down or doesn't work right at the sign up like now but [TS]

01:17:46   you're killing yourself to do it but certainly you are working really hard [TS]

01:17:49   during that time because there was only a few people and it's not like you have [TS]

01:17:52   this giant staff of people to watch all the services it was you write that is [TS]

01:17:56   what i'm talking about I'm not talking about like that you didn't sleep for [TS]

01:17:59   seven days straight to make some changes every month is different but during that [TS]

01:18:02   time when a small group of people trying to keep this site is growing incredibly [TS]

01:18:07   fast up and running so that we think you could take advantage of the traction [TS]

01:18:10   than you had that was an important thing to do and if you had not done that in [TS]

01:18:14   said you know what I'm going to ignore that [TS]

01:18:17   page and I'm only gonna work from nine to five and I'll bring the series back [TS]

01:18:20   up in the morning that would have materially affected the prospects of [TS]

01:18:23   success and probably would have got you boot up the company that's like this [TS]

01:18:29   like look at a couple of us here you can't just say officer in the morning [TS]

01:18:33   because your work-life balance is important you have to do it and you felt [TS]

01:18:37   responsible for doing and you want to do it and you were interested in doing and [TS]

01:18:39   you did it and Tumblr successful but don't you think there's a connection [TS]

01:18:42   between that there is a connection but I think it's a relatively loose one lake [TS]

01:18:48   was taking off whether you know whether ahead the side up or not and if I took [TS]

01:18:53   an hour to fix the site or five minutes to fix the site didn't really matter but [TS]

01:18:59   you couldn't come at you can come in the next morning and do it you can say you [TS]

01:19:02   know what I look at that tomorrow [TS]

01:19:03   sometimes we sometimes probably wouldn't even know that sometimes are monitoring [TS]

01:19:06   system failed us and we weren't alerted the problems and things were down for [TS]

01:19:10   hours and it was fine like I mean like I was put this example back then like [TS]

01:19:15   Flickr was down for like a whole four day weekend one time you know 2008 ish a [TS]

01:19:21   week later everyone forgot yeah I mean 2020 is a good example to where they [TS]

01:19:26   were down but I think that after they crossed the hump like you know me you [TS]

01:19:29   don't know what's on the other side of the Haunted certain inevitability that [TS]

01:19:33   takes on it's just like when you're on the the near side of the hopping out the [TS]

01:19:37   far side of them you're never gonna get over you never going to become the thing [TS]

01:19:40   that that people talk about being down for four days and I see you in the [TS]

01:19:44   beginning [TS]

01:19:45   have some minimum level of dealing with growth in a way that lets you just start [TS]

01:19:49   you know taking off like I mean again just think about how you work it was it [TS]

01:19:54   all just a mistake that you were putting in those long hours and worrying about [TS]

01:19:57   things and if you would just known if you had no more than you are just like [TS]

01:20:01   just chill don't worry about it don't work such long hours in the company [TS]

01:20:04   would have been equally successful where you just running to see so everyone else [TS]

01:20:07   running you're saying that you should have just been working from nine to five [TS]

01:20:10   and in the end you're sort of hard work and dedication to making sure things [TS]

01:20:15   were up all the time was foolish foolish expenditure of energy issues just like [TS]

01:20:18   if you had known then you know now you would just working nine-to-five [TS]

01:20:21   competent and the fact that the success of the company would have been equal [TS]

01:20:25   you could be right but the bombing as you ran because our warehouse running [TS]

01:20:29   and I think that will continue to happen most of the time I did just work you [TS]

01:20:33   know 92508 whatever it might be like 10 27 every 10 to six but like most of the [TS]

01:20:38   time that's all I did I was not programming at home for tumblr ever like [TS]

01:20:42   that hardly it happen maybe twice like ever adequately like it like that hardly [TS]

01:20:48   ever happened that was not at all normal most of the for the most part I [TS]

01:20:52   maintained a very healthy work-life balance with their islands you were [TS]

01:20:56   sleeping next to your phone or yes but that was a lot of that on his [TS]

01:21:00   self-imposed harassed and and that was mostly because we took too long to hire [TS]

01:21:06   a system in which was partly my fault cuz I kept saying you know what I still [TS]

01:21:10   got this you know i mean it was certainly probably my fault but if you [TS]

01:21:13   didn't have that drive that self-imposed stress don't you think that someone beat [TS]

01:21:19   David or someone else would eventually get to the point of you know what you [TS]

01:21:23   you either need to start sleeping with your phone ringing to hire someone to [TS]

01:21:26   sleep with their phone like if you didn't have that if you weren't as as [TS]

01:21:32   proud of your work is you are then I think it would have caused problems it's [TS]

01:21:38   possible I mean it's hard to know what would have been different but we we a [TS]

01:21:44   tumblr in those early days when news me just mean David we did not have a [TS]

01:21:48   culture of work holla some really David pushed himself a lot harder than I push [TS]

01:21:52   myself but I wasn't really penalized for that for the most part you know he he [TS]

01:21:57   will be thinking about a conflict that says David you know he he would be [TS]

01:22:01   thinking about anything constantly like it whatever is whatever his work is that [TS]

01:22:04   the rest of his life will be thinking I constantly just the kind of person but [TS]

01:22:07   but I am you know I try to have a more separated balance between home and work [TS]

01:22:14   in my side projects around let your family versus my job or whatever so I [TS]

01:22:19   think your skill may be calibrated strangely because the amount of the [TS]

01:22:22   amount of time and effort you put into your work and now is probably still [TS]

01:22:26   higher than most people who were in those fat and happy jobs not even close [TS]

01:22:31   maybe you haven't spent enough time in the Napa coming to see exactly how it [TS]

01:22:37   works [TS]

01:22:38   your site maybe you're not as big or as David but you have a higher than average [TS]

01:22:45   drive to do things I mean I think Casey would agree on that [TS]

01:22:49   like the amount of stuff that you have to do is ask that you actually do you [TS]

01:22:54   you need to be doing stuff you need to have lots of things you're doing and you [TS]

01:22:58   work hard at them harder than you actually need to work so I think your [TS]

01:23:00   scale may be off a little bit I'm willing to believe that you don't work [TS]

01:23:03   as hard as David because you know tumblers his thing and you're brought on [TS]

01:23:07   right and so successful companies that are down about workaholics or whatever [TS]

01:23:14   but in the grand scheme of things like that about your questions like does that [TS]

01:23:19   mean you had to maybe maybe not like you can't run the experiment go back in time [TS]

01:23:25   and say I'm going to do it again but I'm gonna do it differently that's awesome [TS]

01:23:29   in earlier I'm going to just have a laid-back attitude and everything will [TS]

01:23:33   be fine because really that's not what matters in the end what matters is we [TS]

01:23:37   had the right idea we have the right design we have the right you know so [TS]

01:23:40   many other things . our timing is right you know the choice to be made about [TS]

01:23:44   what the product was made the right choices about product designs that there [TS]

01:23:48   are so many things you know we made the right choices about when to take funding [TS]

01:23:51   when not to take funding should be you know you guys like Mark Zuckerberg hold [TS]

01:23:56   the tortured history of Facebook and how so many companies tried to acquire and [TS]

01:24:00   how he said no doubt I could have been a terrible mistake and how hard to keep [TS]

01:24:03   working hard working people under him and all that other stuff it's difficult [TS]

01:24:07   to say but you know whether it's necessary or not it seems to be a [TS]

01:24:11   characteristic of the startup that kind of in the same way that is [TS]

01:24:16   characteristic of the games industry and the same way you could say that it's not [TS]

01:24:19   necessary and it shouldn't be done but it is what we have now and to change it [TS]

01:24:24   I think you have to change your startup's four games industry you have [TS]

01:24:28   to change the incentives or maybe you have to have workers are unionized you [TS]

01:24:32   have to have a backlash that happened a little while ago with DA you know [TS]

01:24:37   to be a spouse's and all the employees getting complaining of getting ground up [TS]

01:24:41   by the machine I think this New York Times story about Amazon is part of that [TS]

01:24:45   phenomenon raising awareness about this issue among the pampered white-collar [TS]

01:24:49   workers to the paper white-collar workers can have angry blog posts in a [TS]

01:24:54   medium post about it citing Henry for the system working much this week is [TS]

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01:25:59   best search I've seen for all these demands [TS]

01:26:02   pressure to meet him anywhere else you know that it's usually a pretty [TS]

01:26:06   unpleasant experience anywhere else you do it you know it's at best it's ugly [TS]

01:26:10   and confusing at worst if you like you being ripped off for Tascam however I [TS]

01:26:16   i've never had these problems I have you so many domain name registrars over the [TS]

01:26:20   years however I've never had these problems with their site is respectful [TS]

01:26:24   of you the user it doesn't try to scam you it doesn't hurt Rick you later they [TS]

01:26:28   do not believe in heavy handed up selling or weird little you know [TS]

01:26:33   confusing promotions trying to buy something you don't need they don't work [TS]

01:26:36   like that and their site is incredibly well designed and it's easy to use so [TS]

01:26:42   you go in there you know you have to buy something and go to control panel [TS]

01:26:45   whatever you wanna do it makes sense it's nicely designed it looks good [TS]

01:26:50   it's easy to use you can figure it out I even even sites that seemed well [TS]

01:26:55   intentioned to me I've used many records even the ones seen well-intentioned [TS]

01:27:00   their stuff is still ugly and confusing to actually use however is both [TS]

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01:27:35   sponsoring our show once again one more bit on a work call them before I move on [TS]

01:27:39   I want people to think that is all bad I'm thinking of you know the times that [TS]

01:27:44   I have various places I worked where I have one particularly since I came home [TS]

01:27:49   on a weekend programming problem [TS]

01:27:52   database design programming combo problem that I have been working all [TS]

01:27:56   week and had come up with a solution that kind of work but it wasn't [TS]

01:27:59   satisfied with it and I think I woke up like Saturday morning and had a good [TS]

01:28:03   idea for how to do it I think I've finally figured out and I just rewrote [TS]

01:28:07   it all in a weekend why does that happen like part of work a whole is among the [TS]

01:28:12   founders and among everybody else is that if you have a job that you love [TS]

01:28:15   doing if you love programming you will find yourself thinking about your idle [TS]

01:28:19   time again walking the dog taking a shower and sometimes you know this is [TS]

01:28:23   all pretty kids if you you know if you don't have kids again if you don't have [TS]

01:28:27   kids you realize how much free time you have so enjoyed you know youth is wasted [TS]

01:28:32   on the young and free time is wasted on people with no kids that you actually [TS]

01:28:37   have a lot of time even he married I was married at the time but there is enough [TS]

01:28:41   time for you to acted to spend one weekend you know reasonable hour [TS]

01:28:46   stopping for meals not staying up late or anything but just like you know this [TS]

01:28:49   weekend I'm gonna do this thing I want to do it I guess I was invested in the [TS]

01:28:52   company was a small issue company that have been [TS]

01:28:54   by larger company but it was a bunch of people who are all friends who are [TS]

01:28:57   working on a project in the thing that we really believed in a place that [TS]

01:29:02   e-books and everything and you know it's something that we all bleed into was [TS]

01:29:05   important to get this done and you know it wasn't any sort of external deadline [TS]

01:29:10   there wasn't any reason this had to be done I had already done it work I just [TS]

01:29:13   had a better idea for it and I enjoy programming so what about you know [TS]

01:29:15   getting back to the market lifestyle when I did that weekend fun with a [TS]

01:29:20   program programming is funded your programmer you like programming with a [TS]

01:29:23   sucker for doing work on the weekend no but it really has to be on your own [TS]

01:29:29   terms like so I think that's the difference where if you feel like you [TS]

01:29:34   have to do this to keep your job or your being pressured to do it or like the [TS]

01:29:39   culture at work is making you put in hours they don't want to work for you [TS]

01:29:42   there's an expectation that you can do on the weekend no one had an expectation [TS]

01:29:45   I was gonna rewrite this perfectly good working thing that I had rain during the [TS]

01:29:48   week during a raid on a weekend because I had a better idea I wanted to do it [TS]

01:29:52   and it was fun and so that's like the light side of this where if you're lucky [TS]

01:29:56   enough to have a job that you enjoy and your quote unquote leisure time activity [TS]

01:30:00   in the weekend is to do more programming even for your job that no one asked you [TS]

01:30:05   to do because it will make you feel better and you come in the next week and [TS]

01:30:08   be like line that can delete that crap that are at last week and replace it [TS]

01:30:10   with this thing I rewrote entirely weekend so much cleaner and so much [TS]

01:30:14   nicer so much more confidence in its bug free and it's easier to expand in these [TS]

01:30:19   ways like that's a fun thing to do if your program again we should all be [TS]

01:30:22   lucky enough to have the type of job that we actually enjoyed doing it so I [TS]

01:30:26   guess probably rare cos how often do you work in a company that you feel that [TS]

01:30:30   personally invested in how often do you want to do that the files I get from it [TS]

01:30:34   these days is probably I mean I will find myself thinking about work problems [TS]

01:30:38   during the weekend in the shower or drifting off to sleep I just usually [TS]

01:30:42   save those ideas and I go back to the office on Monday to working on this like [TS]

01:30:45   you know what they get enough my time [TS]

01:30:47   when you have kids you can't like if you know it's it's a phase in life what [TS]

01:30:54   would you rather be doing this because I can't imagine I guess the closest I was [TS]

01:30:57   doing my reviews where I would carve out time to do reviews but even that if I [TS]

01:31:01   like boy if I wasn't getting paid these areas I would stop doing them a long [TS]

01:31:05   time ago right so there has to be a balance so anyway I just like make it [TS]

01:31:09   seem like if you are working really hard to your job and bringing work home with [TS]

01:31:13   you it's not always a bad sometimes you're choosing to do it and then it and [TS]

01:31:17   then feels it feels better even though the same thing oh you are you basically [TS]

01:31:22   doing unpaid work for the man on Iran time you're a sucker sometimes it's on a [TS]

01:31:30   great there's definitely been times that I have not been able to get a work [TS]

01:31:32   problem in my head and the best way to get out of my head is to get it out of [TS]

01:31:36   my head and put it on paper so to speak and just do it by one minute that market [TS]

01:31:41   sheets on the region of this is that when his boss lets and off the weekend [TS]

01:31:45   sometimes he writes things and go just because it's fun [TS]

01:31:48   his bosses also him but it's a different him it's like the working during the [TS]

01:31:51   weekend and then it's like you know what I can write the song go so you can tell [TS]

01:31:56   your boss later I wrote on go over the weekend it's awesome it's like it's nice [TS]

01:32:00   that things like two or three sponsors this week [TS]

01:32:06   harry's will be Parker and hover and we will see you next week [TS]

01:32:13   now the show they didn't even need to be accidental [TS]

01:32:20   accidental [TS]

01:32:24   case [TS]

01:32:28   it was a joke and a team article [TS]

01:33:11   time has no meaning anyway until school then we can't do weekdays will certainly [TS]

01:33:22   have me oh yeah I know I can't wait for that to begin to that we had a nice 14 [TS]

01:33:26   going by the way I i think that you you are probably overestimating how much I [TS]

01:33:31   actually work [TS]

01:33:32   timewise well nowadays I know but I'm just saying like you put it this way you [TS]

01:33:37   put in more effort than I think I would put in your position on OKC can do you [TS]

01:33:43   think he if you are Marcus position in life would you put in as much effort as [TS]

01:33:46   he does on various projects that he does it would you slack off nicely don't know [TS]

01:33:51   half of me wants to say I would slack off ten times more than the other half [TS]

01:33:55   me says I think you might be overestimating how much time Marquez [TS]

01:33:58   been sitting in front of the computer you guys you are both smart curious [TS]

01:34:03   programmers you would get bored senseless if you weren't using your [TS]

01:34:07   brain yeah I'm not saying you doing it like to be a magnanimous it's the same [TS]

01:34:12   with all of us like here bring itself to do right and it's like that's what I [TS]

01:34:16   workaholics deal to you must use exactly the same he's like look at why not do I [TS]

01:34:20   don't do it under spaceships and electric cars my brain I have to do this [TS]

01:34:24   it's not like it's barely even a choice like that is the type of person they are [TS]

01:34:28   I just feel like the [TS]

01:34:30   you have more I I have a higher capacity for doing nothing when you do it think [TS]

01:34:34   many many years like the idea of you know you gonna go on a vacation and sit [TS]

01:34:41   on the beach and do nothing I'm pretty darn good at this point I see I can't I [TS]

01:34:45   can do I'm going to the beach next week I'm planning on bringing my laptop like [TS]

01:34:50   the idea of going to the beach and doing nothing that sounds awful like I i would [TS]

01:34:55   i would enjoy about maybe two days of that I let me I gotta tell me bring back [TS]

01:34:59   on now [TS]

01:35:00   yeah I have a much higher tolerance when I can go much longer I agree that you [TS]

01:35:04   know I couldn't do it like you around greenwood et itself to I would be [TS]

01:35:08   building a machine that of sand you know doing something right [TS]

01:35:12   overall like that to some degree it's just a question of how tolerant you have [TS]

01:35:16   for it and I feel like part of his being old R you like I did all the working [TS]

01:35:22   hard stuff and I still do it and [TS]

01:35:24   just like just a plain old boring 4000 programmer workweek believes me more [TS]

01:35:30   like a mentally tired and like the beautiful thing about vacations is you [TS]

01:35:35   can get away from all your responsibilities except keeping your [TS]

01:35:38   children alive and being yourself ride and just have 20 minutes to sit on a [TS]

01:35:43   beach and just like just look at the clouds go by right and that it that that [TS]

01:35:48   recharges me so that I can go back to my regular life I don't think I could do it [TS]

01:35:54   year round but as I get older [TS]

01:35:56   my tolerance for doing nothing gets greater yeah I we've talked about the [TS]

01:36:03   sunshine used to heat going to the beach which I only ever did a handful of times [TS]

01:36:07   in my life and I as i have gotten slightly older and Martin are the same [TS]

01:36:12   age I found that if you put some sort of tent-like object on the beach I'm not [TS]

01:36:18   sitting in direct sunlight and put a good book in my hands I could do that [TS]

01:36:21   easily week that being said when I was at the beach last month I definitely [TS]

01:36:28   spent a few hours programming toward the end towards the end of the trip because [TS]

01:36:31   I had an itch I decided I wanted scratch and couldn't get out of my head of a [TS]

01:36:36   program that patient but I think part of that has to do with like it the [TS]

01:36:39   environment is not good for you don't have your big monitor you could spread [TS]

01:36:43   out last week in a phone booth now is a bunch of the people there there's a [TS]

01:36:48   bunch of the people there and they want to go places and do things and kids [TS]

01:36:51   running around [TS]

01:36:52   yeah that's it no I mean like for me like a zombie doing something with my [TS]

01:36:55   brain on vacation usually that's what I will write or do other things I want [TS]

01:37:02   program necessarily or a program very little while to some some kind of [TS]

01:37:06   satellite project like the website but usually that's when I will write blog [TS]

01:37:10   posts best is when I'm when I'm away as it did then I want to use my brain but i [TS]

01:37:15   dont wanna do any programming because I would prefer to do it on my big nice [TS]

01:37:19   home computer [TS]

01:37:20   see this is why I refused to learn how to trade coffee and why I'm kind of glad [TS]

01:37:25   I don't have a 19 inch monitor at home [TS]

01:37:27   well that's the trick him it I don't want to get to the point where I can't [TS]

01:37:34   function until had a cup of coffee or or I [TS]

01:37:37   get a headache or I get cranky or I just don't think that things be alright I [TS]

01:37:42   don't want that so I'm glad that I don't like coffee in in additionally I'm glad [TS]

01:37:47   that I'm used to a 15 inch laptop I mean I don't just broken that analogy to [TS]

01:37:55   substances I can see something but you did there I believe there is no physical [TS]

01:38:00   addiction component to our screens I'm pretty sure that is just merely a [TS]

01:38:05   preference and again a convenience it's like you know like if I get too used to [TS]

01:38:11   not being half immersed in water all day all want to be dry every time I go to [TS]

01:38:15   see you doing it my point is I don't feel I feel only ever so slightly [TS]

01:38:25   handcuffed by not having a second monitor when I'm developing where is you [TS]

01:38:30   feel completely neutered if you don't have a 25 + inch display as you're [TS]

01:38:35   developing it it's really convenient it's like you know it's convenient to [TS]

01:38:39   have a room that that fits your bed with more than six inches around all sides in [TS]

01:38:43   the walls cause then you can walk around the bed to get onto it [TS]

01:38:46   yeah you know like I don't want to use that one I want to make sure my bedroom [TS]

01:38:50   to just has one foot rallies around the bed and I'll show me through a bit of a [TS]

01:38:54   good used to a bigger room and when I go someplace else they won't be used to [TS]

01:38:57   like your knowledge is breaking down there any way that you should be leaning [TS]

01:39:01   on the fact that I don't want to get I don't want to be tethered to a desk I [TS]

01:39:05   want to do my computing like you said sitting on the couch or whatever those [TS]

01:39:09   are the advantages he should be playing at laptops not saying that really want [TS]

01:39:12   to force yourself to use it in its monetary loss can be barking up the [TS]

01:39:17   wrong tree with explaining why I think there are reasons for these are not them [TS]

01:39:21   are not speaking of Casey do you have have you thought anymore about your [TS]

01:39:26   computer decision that we talked about last week have you thought anymore about [TS]

01:39:30   that since then [TS]

01:39:31   well to be fair that was all the three days ago as we preserve the illusion [TS]

01:39:35   lose last week [TS]

01:39:37   all right right right right it was easily week ago thought long and hard [TS]

01:39:42   really I don't know the problem of come to is I think all three did potential [TS]

01:39:47   machines a Mac Mini 5 K and a MacBook Pro all three and I don't know all three [TS]

01:39:55   of them not four of them all three of them have definite advantages they [TS]

01:40:00   really honestly do and I can't figure out which which criterion i think is the [TS]

01:40:07   most important is it having something that can move is it having something [TS]

01:40:12   beautiful to look at [TS]

01:40:13   isn't having something that I can barely see that stuffed in the corner that I [TS]

01:40:17   only really use remotely or very rarely go physically in my can't figure out [TS]

01:40:24   what I want and I think people said this on Twitter via feedback but I think the [TS]

01:40:29   really wanna do is which is what I had planned last week is I'm just sit around [TS]

01:40:34   see what comes in in the fall with regard to MacBook Pro updates and [TS]

01:40:39   potentially any other kind of update and just see if that sways me one what one [TS]

01:40:45   way like let's say for the sake of discussion that I decided I really [TS]

01:40:49   wanted a 12 inch Retina Mac and the MacBook one wasn't out yet [TS]

01:40:55   well you know then fast bowler the mechanism all my problems are solved [TS]

01:40:59   maybe they'll be some others things some feature that I really really love in the [TS]

01:41:03   new MacBook Pro or maybe even a new Mac Mini or the new 5 k I'm a canal say you [TS]

01:41:08   know what darn it that's it that's for me but now I just really don't know [TS]

01:41:14   well first of all as look suppose a new Mac Mini comes it'll still suck like [TS]

01:41:20   it'll still be a bad deal it's still going to be a thousand though it'll [TS]

01:41:24   still be at least $1,000 for a good spec it'll still not have very good options [TS]

01:41:28   you know it it like you know if you look at the ones that we have today it's you [TS]

01:41:34   know you got you max out at two cores you can barely get an i7 you max out at [TS]

01:41:41   one terabyte built-in on only then if you do the fusion like it's it's the [TS]

01:41:45   options you can even speak out higher if you wanted to let you know get into the [TS]

01:41:49   iFixit territory about putting your own crap in there [TS]

01:41:52   and even that's becoming harder and harder it's the Mac Mini is is so and I [TS]

01:41:57   say this having one here being very happy with it but for your purposes I [TS]

01:42:01   think again only if it's going to be used as a server only does that make [TS]

01:42:05   sense I think thinking about it more as the editor of thinking about it more I [TS]

01:42:12   think what you should probably do is get a 15 X program that's the most likely [TS]

01:42:20   outcome because like the big thing is the way you are in a league if you work [TS]

01:42:25   the way I work we always work in the same place in the house where you know [TS]

01:42:28   you were you don't take a laptop on the couch and do real work like if you're [TS]

01:42:31   always working in your office upstairs then get a five k done but because it [TS]

01:42:38   isn't how you live and you make a good point about wanting to be with Aaron at [TS]

01:42:41   night while you're working that makes a lot of sense and that's something that [TS]

01:42:44   your home office can't offer you so if that's the way you work at home or your [TS]

01:42:49   computer at home then i thinkI 14 inches is probably the best option for that [TS]

01:42:54   because you know for anyone else like for four other people for people who [TS]

01:42:59   don't program for a living or for people who have lower needs that was probably [TS]

01:43:04   too big you know then in that case I would say get the 13 inch MacBook Pro [TS]

01:43:09   because for most people that is like the nice middle of the road cover everything [TS]

01:43:13   kind of computer for you I'd say you know your needs are higher go for the 15 [TS]

01:43:17   and I i think the 15 inch MacBook Pro or 13 in general like the MacBook Pro / [TS]

01:43:25   MacBook Air range is the default option for if you don't know what your needs [TS]

01:43:31   will be just get one of those and in your case you don't know if you knew [TS]

01:43:38   what you need would be in your needs to match my needs again get the five Cape [TS]

01:43:41   done but because that's a big unknown for you still and and even if it was for [TS]

01:43:47   me nail down and it probably wouldn't lineup much with my needs and I use mine [TS]

01:43:52   or the way john is you know because you don't work the way we do and you don't [TS]

01:43:58   know how you're gonna be working over the next four years I would say just [TS]

01:44:02   wait for this guy like updates and then get the updated [TS]

01:44:05   yeah it's most likely outcome the five k when we started the conversation last [TS]

01:44:10   week I did not even entertain the five Ks an option but the more we talked [TS]

01:44:16   about it the more I thought you know what if I if I dedicate myself to only [TS]

01:44:23   being at my desk it really does make sense and if if I'm honest with you guys [TS]

01:44:28   right now you know my current personal machine which admittedly has a platter [TS]

01:44:33   hard drive which obviously changes whether or not it's usable as compared [TS]

01:44:37   to my work laptop has a nasty but my personal machine today the wifi has been [TS]

01:44:44   off for months and it's been connected via ethernet because I in since a 15 [TS]

01:44:48   inch MacBook Pro because I never move it because I always will just grab my work [TS]

01:44:53   computer because whether I want to work or play it has everything I want on it [TS]

01:44:56   and so if we can get over the separation of church and state if you will [TS]

01:45:02   I'm going to have this laptop my work laptop pretty much regardless and even [TS]

01:45:08   if I left this job and got a different job or even if I left this job and work [TS]

01:45:12   for myself I would probably end up getting a laptop regardless of whether [TS]

01:45:17   of whatever other computers I have at home so there is a compelling argument [TS]

01:45:22   for the five k iMac as much as I've really don't want to entertain it [TS]

01:45:26   because I think it's ridiculous and stupid piece of furniture ya gotta do [TS]

01:45:29   what I did with my HDTV and cut out a piece of cardboard the size of my Mac [TS]

01:45:34   and stick it where you gonna put it in your house and then he liked his block [TS]

01:45:38   morning sunlight that I like when I'm eating my breakfast doesn't look likely [TS]

01:45:43   to get visible from the street and looks weird like pieces of furniture that baby [TS]

01:45:49   have to figure out if there's a place for them that won't mess with the era [TS]

01:45:52   tanks wherever you pronounce it kool John one-year departing tomorrow morning [TS]

01:46:01   you can see me all sorts of pictures that probably won't be super jealous [TS]

01:46:04   that he will see it can you can you have your family take pictures of you and [TS]

01:46:09   then send those to us all the best only person takes pictures of anything it so [TS]

01:46:14   bad then we go on like vacations with the rest of my family and my parents and [TS]

01:46:18   sister and brothers they just let me take pictures for everybody now there's [TS]

01:46:23   a lot of pictures of my kids and my wife and pictures of me and a medium of [TS]

01:46:29   pictures of everybody else [TS]