The Accidental Tech Podcast

133: You Have to Walk the Dog

 

  even let us give you a vid YouTube starting point and you quickly found [TS]

  found that when you click the day unit access facebook but he started off at [TS]

  the bottom [TS]

  do we have all of this week I put in the link here and how to pronounce this [TS]

  person's name and I realize I haven't followed the link to stall for you for a [TS]

  moment John you didn't do your homework I did it's in a tabloid there I wasn't [TS]

  doing that didn't help [TS]

  also it was lost it was lost amongst your tabs wasn't laws that was right [TS]

  next to the ATP PEP he knew exactly where it was the whole time I totally I [TS]

  just didn't actually click on it to keep open the tab you have to go to the thing [TS]

  and put it anyway this feedback as former colleague according to Google [TS]

  Translate which I'm sure it is accurate in this case regarding the eyesight [TS]

  replacement for iPhone six-plus like the problems that having to get it replaced [TS]

  under warranty or whatever question is there reason Apple can't just send a [TS]

  notification to the affected devices why do we have to go to a web form an [TS]

  interview serial number to find out if your device is the one type of problem [TS]

  and I thought that was an interesting question because there is to ask myself [TS]

  what one is the technical could Apple even do that and second is the premier [TS]

  that would actually want to do that technically speaking I think Apple could [TS]

  do that surely there are there is software running iPhone that has access [TS]

  to the serial number information like Apple software even if you know third [TS]

  party apps on Apple's iOS get that information but they would have to build [TS]

  that into the OS really periodically added phones home and says either any [TS]

  relevant recalls are updates for this thing so no privacy aspects on this does [TS]

  Apple know that phone serial number [TS]

  XYZ belongs to an individual person I suppose they do because you've got the [TS]

  but I can't find my phone type thing but [TS]

  not sure where does that information so my answer at this feedback is they [TS]

  probably could and I would imagine the reason they don't is that they don't [TS]

  have the code that built-in is probably a low priority since these things happen [TS]

  that often and building a tennis like that title mechanism seems like it has [TS]

  the potential to be difficult to implement in a way that doesn't expose [TS]

  more information about a person to to Apple generally doesn't want to know [TS]

  about you as possible and potentially to other things are going to exploit [TS]

  whatever hold a spokesman the thing that periodically poled some location and [TS]

  upload information about your phone to its thoughts on that [TS]

  well you know i i think they they almost certainly could do this kind of thing if [TS]

  they wanted to and there there is one thing to consider also that the the [TS]

  quote recall or whatever it is the service extension whatever whatever it [TS]

  is they say very the same multiple times on that page that it only applies to [TS]

  iPhones explosives with this year number range that are in working order and so [TS]

  that probably gives them the ability to say well this phone that you're handing [TS]

  us all beat up and we you know we're not going to repair this this horribly beat [TS]

  up some with broken screen the dental over it for this camera thing because [TS]

  you know you've obviously if you this phone it is in good working order so [TS]

  that gives them like it gives them an out and there's no way for them to know [TS]

  on the server side like you know what kind of condition your phone as in [TS]

  physically really and so they probably don't want to send this to two people [TS]

  who devices are ineligible [TS]

  secondly if they're doing it to save money [TS]

  well at least at least a save you know a lot of requests from people who won't be [TS]

  satisfied but also they might be doing it to save money they might actually say [TS]

  you know this is really only affecting some of these phones and it says it [TS]

  makes it kind of clear in the in the language of the page that in one place [TS]

  where it states the condition of the first times dates the conditions it says [TS]

  phones that are in good working order [TS]

  and are examining this problem and in the second time it doesn't mention [TS]

  whether the phone has to be exhibit in the problem to have the repair done but [TS]

  it looks like they're trying not to replace or not the service phones that [TS]

  don't necessarily need quote need it and that could be there could be something [TS]

  like well I'm willing to service the ones who scammers are actually showing [TS]

  this problem according to a genius who looks at it or also it could mean you [TS]

  know we don't really good or service this problem for people who notice the [TS]

  problem and who care about the problem so it it probably is to some degree [TS]

  trying to minimize the number of people who even know about this problem and you [TS]

  go in to get things fixed and who go in and no load the Apple stores and the [TS]

  repairs repair centers with even more people and money that I was just meant [TS]

  to say that it seems like it would be a tough thing to figure out how let's [TS]

  assume they do they want to notify everyone how do you do that exactly by [TS]

  that I mean do you just send one massive notification to everyone that has [TS]

  affected device that's probably unwise because the Apple stores gonna have a [TS]

  pretty crummy day the next few days do you do it in batches will then the [TS]

  internet eventually finds out that they're doing this in batches and then [TS]

  they go at the Internet is enraged because this iPhone issue you didn't [TS]

  even know you had isn't getting fixed the schedule you would like it to be [TS]

  fixed in so how does that even work it just seems like a nightmare there's [TS]

  there's no good reason for Apple to do this do agree with orca but i just i [TS]

  don't think that there's anything in it for Apple in all it does is make things [TS]

  kind of more challenging for them it doesn't seem like an urgent issue as the [TS]

  chat room pointed out they don't need of the phones polling or if they just do a [TS]

  push notification and you know the serial number like when you do find my [TS]

  phone and lost all your devices they know your devices to have this [TS]

  information available to them and the US would need the poll they would just need [TS]

  to get push notification [TS]

  so things but it's not like batteries may explode you need to know right now [TS]

  now now it's more like the kind of thing that they will probably email you and as [TS]

  long as you used in Apple I D they have at least one email you know with your [TS]

  phone set up an apple a day they have one email address in this type of thing [TS]

  they could send out the emails and I don't think it matters to be sent all [TS]

  the emails I want certain batches because people aren't immediately going [TS]

  to run out again it's not urgent people whom you are gonna run out to the store [TS]

  you read their email whenever they redid and look at the Lego people forget the [TS]

  day read other people may have been a reminder in their calendar I think the [TS]

  there won't be a big Russian Apple stores no matter how you notify about it [TS]

  and it just doesn't seem that urgent like for this particular thing and the [TS]

  money-saving aspect that has something to but yet a lot of those a lot of these [TS]

  type of things things don't happen very often that are an essential expected [TS]

  part of the project experience tend to be done and not just an apple but every [TS]

  company tend to be done in sort of ways that seem inefficient or not high-tech [TS]

  because it's not you know that's the stuff that happens all the time you know [TS]

  software updates for example like expected parts of the life cycle of a [TS]

  product are integrated on an improved in made more streamlined and made efficient [TS]

  and so on and so forth in these things that happen rarely are supposed to [TS]

  happen rarely it's like about what to slap something together even something [TS]

  like that I'm excusing this but you can think about the whole pushing the u2 [TS]

  album on everyone's things that's not a thing that happens all the time like [TS]

  them as far as I know the only time they ever did that it's not as if there is an [TS]

  established system for doing this in a way that has been proven to be efficient [TS]

  in 99 they just like to them and just said well you know they couldn't [TS]

  probably couldn't give everyone promo codes because their promo code system [TS]

  probably couldn't handle of this is just too many people and they don't want to [TS]

  let you know that I went to be what's the best way we can give everyone US for [TS]

  free we can make it free for a day on the store [TS]

  well then people might not redeem it and like part of it was a really wanted this [TS]

  music back to be on people's things without them having to do anything like [TS]

  that [TS]

  over the top down instead of often but the way they did it was just so clumsy [TS]

  and ham-fisted and least part of that has to be part of this wrong-headed [TS]

  thinking the other part is that something you do everyday so you just [TS]

  gotta say with the mechanisms and tools and services we have at our disposal [TS]

  what can we do to make this happen considering they do have push [TS]

  notification stating that was one of things I could have done but then [TS]

  someone in the meeting raised their hands say yeah but is this really so [TS]

  important and then like the bean counter guy like marcus says that make more [TS]

  people come in to get the service but they need to do not so going to web [TS]

  forum in entering your serial number starts looks pretty good in that regard [TS]

  to make a web form can we do that I think so that the guy who knows where [TS]

  that web address in here but also you know this isn't a problem that is so [TS]

  urgent that it will cause like data loss or a physical hazardous batteries and [TS]

  exploding you know you're like somebody seeing how the iMac 3 terabyte drive [TS]

  recall cuz he was seeking her made those three terabyte drives like they said [TS]

  they all failed everywhere it was just an accident that that whole drive [TS]

  generation was terrible but said that the email people for that that makes [TS]

  sense that this is your data that you could be losing if the strike dies in [TS]

  this case like your photos might be blurry on your six-plus if it was made [TS]

  in this range by the way mine was I had my test expressly qualifies but I you [TS]

  know that's not going to qualify if they actually check to have it passed I think [TS]

  about it later but nothing is some some people might say well how do you say to [TS]

  push notification and and you know will they worry about annoying people and the [TS]

  answer there is they don't worry about that at all because they already spam us [TS]

  with push notifications for stupid things i three words for that one flash [TS]

  flood warning in an office I don't know that we are here in the office as a [TS]

  flash flood warning it sounds like the world is coming to an end [TS]

  everyone's I terrible klaxon sound so I feel like I mean it's not them and you [TS]

  can opt out of that you could turn that stuff off you know when few people [TS]

  chatter saying that the legal requirement they had to do that anyway [TS]

  that's separate know what I'm talking about is the BS push medications from [TS]

  the tips a band from the App Store and from the news app in iOS nine you know [TS]

  I've complained for a long time now that there has always been a rule ever since [TS]

  push notifications were launched there was always a rule in the App Store [TS]

  review rules that said you could I use push notifications for marketing or [TS]

  promotion of any kind and not only has that rule never been enforced ever like [TS]

  there's been span put in a vacation to push notification that are for marketing [TS]

  or promotion only those have existed since the beginning of time and very [TS]

  popular apps have always use them like it isn't like it's only a few bad actors [TS]

  who do it it's common practice everybody does it now and Apple has never seemed [TS]

  to care even though they have this rule they've never seem to even bother trying [TS]

  to enforce it and now Apple has started breaking that rule themselves and that [TS]

  like they all seem to care or you know obviously you know Apple is not one [TS]

  person so certain teams obviously don't seem to care but like to me that's [TS]

  extremely inappropriate lake and and maybe it's just saying that this is one [TS]

  of those things that I care alot more about than everybody else in the world [TS]

  and so maybe I'm just nuts but to me a spam notification is never okay and it's [TS]

  especially not OK from the platform vendor for identification that I was [TS]

  adopted into by default that is not cool at all I couldn't agree more and the [TS]

  tips I think I'd had it on my phone because it got pushed onto my phone [TS]

  during a software update or wherever I think I saw one of the tips come through [TS]

  on notification center and the very next thing I did was grab my phone and turn [TS]

  off all notifications from tips and bury it in the most deep folder in the middle [TS]

  of nowhere I'm [TS]

  home screens because I don't want anything to do with it I don't want it I [TS]

  don't I don't want to be opted into it I wish I was I wish it was opt in buying [TS]

  me a rather than opting by them just no go away don't do it and it again it [TS]

  doesn't encourage an app developer to be a good citizen of the platform if the [TS]

  platform vendors do the same BS crap that that that I would want to do as a [TS]

  developer hypothetically it's just gross [TS]

  this is kind of a larger theme that I'm that I keep keep seeing cracks in the [TS]

  foundation here and I'm really fearing for this you know john mentioned the u2 [TS]

  album song is awesome sounds of innocence but ever since and there's [TS]

  things like that [TS]

  now these know certain apps showing us notifications for Apple and it it kind [TS]

  of seems like Apple AAPL is a big company they are the man like talking [TS]

  about a rebellion against IBM rebellions big company rolling into the man Apple [TS]

  is the man now and Apple is big corporate America now and most of the [TS]

  time we're able to ignore that most of the time that is not a problem in the [TS]

  way that big you know self-interested only and and sometimes tasteless [TS]

  companies in the way they usually act the way they usually annoy people like [TS]

  us usually Apple does not display those qualities but there have been a few [TS]

  instances recently where it seems like they're slipping it seems like and I [TS]

  don't know this is like a Steve vs Tim thing probably not but it seems like [TS]

  Apple is starting to behave more like the giant corporation that they have [TS]

  been for quite some time and starting to to negatively affect some of the things [TS]

  they do it in ways that annoy people like us who who in the past have you [TS]

  know Apple's never been perfect but it sure seems like they're they're making [TS]

  little bad judgment calls more frequently now than they used to [TS]

  in ways like spanning US and in promoting their own stuff and be a [TS]

  promoting Apple music so heavily and iTunes and music app that they've just [TS]

  ruin the entire news [TS]

  and they ruined iTunes to a great degree stuff like that like they're at their [TS]

  making bad calls and and they're they're doing things that are only [TS]

  self-interested rather than being something of it also benefit us in [TS]

  nineteen years though this morning of iTunes much different than all the other [TS]

  times they were not have you talked about iTunes Pashos I think of all those [TS]

  things that when I can kind of defenders the tips that because it is going to be [TS]

  a tip that kinda has to be opted out no one is going to make the whole point is [TS]

  you need to people who need these tips the most have no idea how dropped into [TS]

  it so which which OS and the thing where you can turn off notifications from the [TS]

  notification is that I was nine you can do that [TS]

  yeah there was one of the things that I like from the notification you get sad I [TS]

  want to see the beginnings of a market that's part of the house was like you [TS]

  get the notification maybe I'm business remembering chat room in a second if I'm [TS]

  wrong but if not able to do this you get the notification and even when you know [TS]

  how to do it I gotta go back to Settings notifications and then scroll until I [TS]

  find that thing is no search maybe there is a certain that page is another idea [TS]

  that they had to search the settings on iOS yes yes they did it almost works [TS]

  alright people in general same thing of Android but anyway yeah that's a feature [TS]

  that's that's that would be handy but for tips that has to be opted out [TS]

  because the whole plan that helps the people who need the most need and it can [TS]

  be annoying even those tips can be annoying as one of the tips one of the [TS]

  first tipped his second tip should be don't wanna see any more of these tips [TS]

  here's how you turn them off saying that I'm correct you can turn them off the [TS]

  notification anyway I haven't installed iOS 902 case you haven't noticed they [TS]

  all the other stuff I don't know it's hard for me to discern trends here the [TS]

  only friend I can maybe pick out is that when Jobs was still around [TS]

  you could see much more limited nothing they're going to try to get into a lot [TS]

  of stuff that's true they were there are a limited and [TS]

  you could you could kind of I don't know this is actually cheaper you kind of get [TS]

  a feel for like things that you would imagine Steve Jobs and find distasteful [TS]

  didn't get out the door is that because he was micro-managing you're on the air [TS]

  that because everyone around him thought to themselves I saw this is Steve I'll [TS]

  tell me it's crappy and we shouldn't put out or whatever whereas the Tim Cook's [TS]

  Apple is trying much more things and overall I think that's a benefit because [TS]

  we just get so many things that we wanted for so long that you know just [TS]

  what I was a tough but on the other side you have like that we never talked about [TS]

  that promotional site about what's so amazing about the iPhone and how a [TS]

  perder is have great ideas stuff like that that would never come out of you [TS]

  know if they had passed under under the jobs that would you know that's not the [TS]

  kind of BS that he has different brand of BS like that and that is not the [TS]

  correct so I'm mostly I don't think I think it's still a net positive I'm [TS]

  going to deal with the bumps in the road ever do you know a lot of these things [TS]

  is revealing itself or the ability to turn off the notification from the [TS]

  notification must be today should have and you can say the problem is they keep [TS]

  sending too many notifications or the tips out noise me or even stuff like i [TS]

  cant delete these apps on the phone I should be able to hide them or whatever [TS]

  those are exactly the type of things that Tim Cook's Apple seems more [TS]

  receptive to hearing the cries about him get to them eventually obviously the [TS]

  ability to actually hired the stocks app or whatever it's probably really low on [TS]

  the list of thing of longstanding complaints about iOS in terms of impact [TS]

  us like what's put them in a folder etc else does but I think they will [TS]

  eventually get to it [TS]

  unlike the three Tim Cook Apple you like you know they're never gonna let me hold [TS]

  stocks that put in a folder no big deal I don't know it it seems like you know [TS]

  what you said is correct that it does seem like you know we've we have now a [TS]

  different brand of BS you know and Steve's vs whether it was better align [TS]

  with us whether we're just used to it the biggest liked steve is a character [TS]

  and kind of role then who knows what is a person of a good like where we're [TS]

  pretending it steve is BS all was Apple's BS when steve was the CEO [TS]

  everything was like a mapped onto him it's like well I don't know what [TS]

  actually went on inside the company's all pretend this is Steve Jobs idea like [TS]

  that was just the simple the the external application of the black box [TS]

  that was apple and same thing we're doing that Tim Cook sapelo whatever we [TS]

  have no real way of knowing what's going on internally over doing is trying to [TS]

  you know he just does not want a person but we are remodeling it pretend it's a [TS]

  person what is the personality that person what kind of person is this Apple [TS]

  you know well and you know it is so many big corporations behave like the out of [TS]

  touch men in their fifties who run them and it shows and Apple has been run by [TS]

  men in their fifties for a while now but it it really didn't behave that way [TS]

  didn't seem that way they didn't seem as out of touch as that kind of group [TS]

  usually does to people like us but for some reason now I'm not feeling that [TS]

  confident that a morir it's just it does seem like that has changed without Steve [TS]

  or at least in the same time that that Steve unfortunately passed away in the [TS]

  leadership change and everything it now seems more like what it is which is a [TS]

  group of old guys traded trying to figure out what school and trying to [TS]

  like yell at us now to tell us what's cool just hang America soon you'll be [TS]

  able to Guyana cities and then everything will match up again I mean [TS]

  I'm already not cool and I'm only 34 3333 I never got to get every time I'm [TS]

  already not cool I know that but i would i would not be running something [TS]

  borrowed have to decide important things that other people should think are cool [TS]

  cool is this just about taste that's all it always comes down to is like what [TS]

  what seems a tasteful appropriate thing to do was too flashy what's too [TS]

  flamboyant what's to obviously BS like make your BS of these be clever what is [TS]

  actually inspiring versus what is cloying like it's it's difficult to do [TS]

  is it'll do as an individual that alone trying to hurt a giant multi-billion [TS]

  dollar organization to present a face to the world that most people who look on [TS]

  it [TS]

  decide that it is tasteful the things they do it at all so it is but like [TS]

  like the things that we've seen from Apple in in recent time that have seemed [TS]

  distasteful to us things like you know the span of innocence things like that [TS]

  weird presentations they keep giving and the weird Eddy Cue segment and dental [TS]

  music segment like all the stuff you know it's this is this seems like [TS]

  they're they're letting a lot of things out that you know Steve's brand of BS [TS]

  and the thing and the flaws Steve will it out and be things like the iPod hi-fi [TS]

  that's totally gonna be an awesome deal and people are going to buy it you know [TS]

  that was the kind of BS late in the game was figuring out to see me like he does [TS]

  because he didn't like it won't even be introducing it he didn't like the [TS]

  Motorola ROKR me could tell right kind of seemed like you really like the iPod [TS]

  iPod and I guess it was ok the rest of the world did not like every day since [TS]

  know that but everyone else like sometimes people like sometimes Steve [TS]

  thought something would only seem to think something would be a great success [TS]

  and that people would have no problem with its price or limitations and then [TS]

  the market said very clearly otherwise that was Steve's I think that that was [TS]

  Steve's biggest or most common law in judgment whereas now [TS]

  current Apple we have other flaws in judgment that are very different to me a [TS]

  little more worrisome and maybe it's no big deal you know maybe maybe I'm [TS]

  overthinking it that's very possible but it is offset by the other the other [TS]

  changes in judgment of like is it a good idea traps to have extension cord to [TS]

  have third party brands setting aside to really bug implementation of the new [TS]

  Apple says yes the old apple says no I like the new Apple decision better I [TS]

  think that outweighs all the stuff I think you're right and and that's why I [TS]

  like overall I think Apple is in a better position now than they were say [TS]

  five years ago you know overall things are better not you know not everything [TS]

  is better but overall I think you're right the things are better it's still [TS]

  it seems like you know we we all thought that after Steve Apple you know we were [TS]

  all telling ourselves back then you know Apple will be ok [TS]

  maybe it maybe it won't change very much but I think we're seeing is is how it [TS]

  how it has changed and it isn't offered a better and there are a lot of things [TS]

  that are better but obviously like you can't have such an incredibly strong [TS]

  personality who had tons of power [TS]

  you can't have that kind of person at the top of the company who then leaves [TS]

  and nothing changes you know it was never going to be nothing will change [TS]

  and it was never good at the end it was never realistic to think that the things [TS]

  that we loved about Apple would all survive this transition some of them [TS]

  happened and I think that's a little set yeah we really need to talk about [TS]

  something that's awesome but very very quickly I just wanted to apologize for [TS]

  the people who've been riding me saying oh my god now I see a crescent on my [TS]

  iPhone what have you done sorry guys but welcome to the club [TS]

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  carries dot com ATP thanks a lot [TS]

  rate I wanted to quickly talk about something I've been thinking about on [TS]

  and off all day today and we've been talking a lot about forced touch and [TS]

  kind of 10 tangentially the haptic engine and how it would be used on the [TS]

  iPhone and had occurred to me and I don't recall us talking about this what [TS]

  if you opt-in kind of like iPad multitasking gestures you know that the [TS]

  five finger pinch in the four finger swipes what if it was opt-in and so it [TS]

  all the confusion that we were worried about from normal users that had never [TS]

  experienced for such before don't really know what it's all about what if it was [TS]

  optional like would that be a reasonable solution to problems [TS]

  sure what it would do necessarily but maybe it's an optional long press but [TS]

  like you like you were saying before Marco on a prior episode but but the key [TS]

  is that its opt-in and by default it doesn't do anything [TS]

  marketed that way though they're gonna be touching the screen you can be pretty [TS]

  darn sure that they're gonna it's gonna be one of the very high up both point [TS]

  features of the iPhone success wherever they end up calling it and if its opt-in [TS]

  people are going to get it and say I seventy yet with a distin- how do I do [TS]

  that thing where you got to go to settings [TS]

  can't possibly be out there just for marketing reasons that is assuming the [TS]

  even tell you that it's there if they don't mention it decided this is not [TS]

  going to be a marketing feature that would seem weird to me like why build [TS]

  the sensors in and not like you live there aren't that many marketing [TS]

  features for the S revision phones gonna look the same as the other one they may [TS]

  be changed the materials in this week this week that but it's not like this [TS]

  one has to know touch I D that's the type of feature that you get when the [TS]

  whole phone changes shape in the two you're kidding right now so any kind of [TS]

  feature you can say you know that you added an extra vision here though they [TS]

  really want to tout its like a cannot imagine it being [TS]

  unless they really really really couldn't figure out what the hell to do [TS]

  with force touch on the phone and then like we get there what to do with that [TS]

  we should just leave it in kind of experimental mode for now I guess that [TS]

  makes sense but the other thing I was thinking about is what if what if they [TS]

  don't do force touch but still have the haptic engines so what if it's not about [TS]

  pushing quote-unquote through the display it's not about having different [TS]

  interaction paradigms from user to phone but it's about having a different [TS]

  interaction paradigm phone to user so maybe it's like the rumble pack was to [TS]

  us back when we were playing nintendo games when you win the Rumble Pak was [TS]

  new [TS]

  it's sort of like that where it's a different it's a different response [TS]

  mechanism but maybe there isn't a force touch on the phone but there to have a [TS]

  good vibration motors already in there as a couple people tweeting about this [TS]

  like they make it so you can feel in your robe over certain things I don't [TS]

  think they're going to put a different physical thing that Shakespeare phone [TS]

  inside the thought I think it's gonna be one thing that Shakespeare phone maybe [TS]

  that will be changed slightly to give different kinds of feedback Minnesota's [TS]

  can be one thing it makes your phone vibrate when you put it on silent the [TS]

  thing that you know that's going to do any kind of haptic feedback that doesn't [TS]

  require any you know anything more than just a plain old touch entered the force [TS]

  sensor the whole point of that is to give a more accurate [TS]

  reading of how hard you're pressing on the screen more I hear that see how much [TS]

  your fingers switches which i think is not the best way to do that so if [TS]

  they're going to build that then they're gonna put a little sensors in there has [TS]

  to be a combination of hard depressing and now we can press you back by the [TS]

  little whatever little thing they have in the phone and yeah I have to see what [TS]

  they decide to do with its type of thing we have to be careful it's because you [TS]

  usually don't get a chance to totally take a mulligan on a major input device [TS]

  or whatever like double clicking whether that was a smart move or not really [TS]

  difficult you can't go like three years into the Mac and say you know I double [TS]

  click doesn't mean open anymore we changed our mind that there's no more [TS]

  double click or double-click mean something entirely different in the [TS]

  world of touch maybe get a little bit chance that you mentioned that the [TS]

  gestures to drop then an iPad but those are her like someone thought that was a [TS]

  good idea that's another one that kind of leaked out someone thought that was a [TS]

  good idea but then other people's immediately realized if you try to play [TS]

  fruit ninja with a do end up going back to the home screen all the time so their [TS]

  solution was not let's not ship until we figure out how to make it work this [TS]

  election was alright by the fault give it turned on if they want and it's a [TS]

  shame because that gesture is so addictive on the iPad but you really [TS]

  can't play for dinner so I don't know what to do that yeah I don't know I mean [TS]

  I'm thinking you know the story here is probably very boring it is probably not [TS]

  anything super clever it is probably for stocks is for stock shit advertised as [TS]

  for stocks it is some kind of you know tertiary secondary click that will bring [TS]

  up some kind of secondary tertiary function and there will be some kind of [TS]

  API Texas this gesture I think that we're thinking I really think this is [TS]

  just it's gonna be a feature added because they can't you know somebody at [TS]

  Apple clearly really loves for stocks like somebody who who matters a lot [TS]

  clearly loves and maybe it's multiple matter like what you see on the water [TS]

  had to do they needed more more input methods like it on the watch it makes [TS]

  sense I don't you know I i've obviously a lot I don't think it makes a lot of [TS]

  sense in the trackpad and ask if it makes sense in just the MacBook one [TS]

  track pad for fitness reasons okay although is it really like I've never [TS]

  been to a bit like I was thinking my dog today that's where do all my thinking is [TS]

  it really [TS]

  dinner to have the whole linear actuator everything down there that I don't know [TS]

  anyway doesn't matter you know putting it in all of the laptops [TS]

  i think is there was maybe premature or or unwarranted but so far most of the [TS]

  feedback from the youngsters as bill is like Marco is an old man and we all of [TS]

  this better [TS]

  yeah I guess this is my old man phase now being in my life that I think it is [TS]

  not really because I think several years from now you'll be ok with it and you go [TS]

  back and he's one of the ones that abundant moved in with your bro continue [TS]

  like all about the whole thing tells down it's very possible I I said before [TS]

  like I don't hate the four stocks trackpad I just think it's worse than [TS]

  the current than the old one and I'm not going to not buy a new laptop ever again [TS]

  to avoided but I'm certainly no I don't think I'm gonna love it when I have to [TS]

  make changes just circle back to bang on the keyboard because I think that is a [TS]

  more safe [TS]

  readout for you to build your argument right well doesn't matter anyway so you [TS]

  know the the addition to four for stocks obviously they're putting across all [TS]

  product line I think this is maybe yet another thing that that kinda ties and [TS]

  earlier which is like I think that this is really gonna be lost on so many [TS]

  people I mean it's already you know I i've already think they've blown the [TS]

  execution on the back side where you know making it a tertiary click is weird [TS]

  making designing it in such a way that the Cliq feedback that you get feels [TS]

  noticeably worse than the old button I think was a poor choice if they had a [TS]

  choice they might not have who knows and on the phone if everything we're hearing [TS]

  from various you know tips sources is correct that it is just like a [TS]

  right-click and its [TS]

  you know another another level of interaction of you gotta go around like [TS]

  shoving everything on the screen to see what I can do it that's the kind of [TS]

  sucks like I it'll it'll be useful for games and for it like there's a [TS]

  discussion on this on this week will into that both but because he was a [TS]

  parade last week and it was very good and they're putting into this can be [TS]

  useful for games of having like a different way for the first person to [TS]

  have the test your strength game to try to get people to punch through their [TS]

  phone screens you know press harder all you know you haven't done yet keep going [TS]

  yeah it's probably really easy to max out the sensor so I guess you can't do [TS]

  that but that'd be fun [TS]

  well also if Apple enforces thereafter rules anymore to the big if there is a [TS]

  rule against apps that encourage people to damage their devices I think it'll be [TS]

  pretty easy to max out the four sensors so I don't think you may like that [TS]

  anyway I'll people try but yes so you know I think it's going to be a really [TS]

  kind of boring a new feature that's not gonna set the world on fire in the same [TS]

  way that the Mac for stocks trackpads have been I still think I give it the [TS]

  easy to do even if they can't figure out a use for it yet I think there is a [TS]

  potential use for it and as long as they don't go hog wild about the making like [TS]

  every screen that's part of the OS has every control has something you've been [TS]

  forced touching can't be like mystery meat navigation can be like playing [TS]

  mystery after be like this do I double tap this to a long press it do it for us [TS]

  touch it it's really really need to figure out what they're going to do with [TS]

  it in their apps anyway and then the third parties can dig their own graves [TS]

  they want to have mark wants to have my go you don't know you have to go into [TS]

  settings and don't tap the switch but forced touches like no one's gonna do [TS]

  that and they do that their own stupid fault so they make the ABI open enough [TS]

  that you can do that now it's like oh you got a long process control you can [TS]

  just tap it would mean long president long dresses but you know they can do [TS]

  the Apple needs to set the example by just using it and I think I did OK on [TS]

  the bike like fast forward and rewind to the video thing or QuickTime player that [TS]

  is a very specific very focused use of force touch [TS]

  that is not like we're defining a new language you and every app going to a [TS]

  Finder window and press down it will do man on the window your console slide to [TS]

  the left to the right they didn't do that they're so I think it's just you [TS]

  know finding that one or two places where you can use it actually is kinda [TS]

  cool and not looking at other options saying we're going to use force touch [TS]

  like if you find yourself doing that you're probably doing it wrong [TS]

  this week is Warby Parker worry Parker believes that prescription glasses [TS]

  simply should not cost $300 or more they bypass the traditional channels and sell [TS]

  high quality better-looking prescription eyeglasses online at a fraction of the [TS]

  usual retail prices starting at just $95 [TS]

  Warby Parker dot com slash ATP see more there is under vintage-inspired with a [TS]

  contemporary twist every Paris custom fit with anti-reflective anti-glare [TS]

  polycarbonate prescription lenses and every parent comes with a very nice hard [TS]

  case and cleaning cloth [TS]

  need to buy an overpriced accessories where we parked right now offers [TS]

  progressive lenses starting at just 295 including the frame's lenses have a [TS]

  distance to the top and a transition to a reading land near the bottom and these [TS]

  are digital free form progressive is the most advanced technology with higher [TS]

  precision a larger television than traditional progressive lenses now [TS]

  buying glasses online something it would be very risky how would you know when [TS]

  they'll fit how they look on you worry Parker has you covered [TS]

  first of other website has a very helpful tool to use your computer's [TS]

  webcam to give you a preview of how the glasses will look on your face even help [TS]

  you measure your eyes and face to get the fit exactly right but the best part [TS]

  is their home tryin program you can borrow up to five pairs of glasses [TS]

  risk-free that they will ship to you also for free you can try them on the [TS]

  comfort of your own home for five days then you could send them back with a [TS]

  prepaid return label again free and there's no obligation to buy still free [TS]

  so check out the home trying to program it is awesome they also offer [TS]

  prescription and non-prescription polarized sunglasses and this is a great [TS]

  price even for the non-prescription one believes me now worry Parker also [TS]

  believes in giving back to the world for every pair of glasses they sell to give [TS]

  another pair to somebody in need through various vision charities [TS]

  around the world go to Warby Parker dot com slash ATP and check out their great [TS]

  selection of premium quality affordable I wear layers of a home trunk it risk [TS]

  free and we I think all three of us have in ourselves or family members who [TS]

  abused [TS]

  glasses and are very happy with them it is great everyone loved or Parker who [TS]

  uses them check it out [TS]

  worry Parker dot com slash ATP thanks a lot to worry Parker sponsoring our show [TS]

  ok so by the time most people have heard this news is going to be a week or two [TS]

  old but a little while ago there was a really kind of ugly article posted by [TS]

  the New York Times about Amazon and there for what it's like to work their [TS]

  their company culture and their hiring practices and it made a pretty big [TS]

  splash and the shorter version the article was it's terrible to work there [TS]

  but I don't know why I only had a chance to read about the first half of it and [TS]

  even after having read that much I thought my goodness I would never ever [TS]

  want to work at this place because among many other things I like to see my [TS]

  family once every sixteen years I don't know John how would you summarize this [TS]

  and what did I leave out cuz I know that there was a lot this article it was long [TS]

  so the badness about Amazon is basically that they expect you to dedicate your [TS]

  mind body and soul to the company to work very long hours to put your job [TS]

  before your family and your health and the rest of your life to just really you [TS]

  know sort of in full throttle mode all the time for the company and if you [TS]

  can't do that if you're not super Spartan not able to do a million things [TS]

  at once and have lots of work keep nine-year then you're not you know that [TS]

  the ideas like that Amazon is demanding place to work they want don't want the [TS]

  smartest people who get the most done and that the best hardest workers and [TS]

  they're very you know try to make it could they were probably like a culture [TS]

  of excellence where they do the thing where they rank everybody and push out [TS]

  the low performers to make room for supposedly the new people [TS]

  and the New York Times story was just our story after story of how that you [TS]

  know what people think I was work-life balance is just so far out of kilter at [TS]

  Amazon all sorts of stories about people being asked to do things that are just [TS]

  you know beyond the pale for the purposes of the work being told [TS]

  explicitly that work has to be more important than their family working very [TS]

  long hours and just all sorts of stuff like that and you know the flip side of [TS]

  it i think thats New York Times story was the according to someone some of [TS]

  your time to be there was the story that got them the highest number of comments [TS]

  ever in a New York Times dogs everyone who either currently works on Amazon the [TS]

  Amazon want to say I you know here's my story working on either I have my own [TS]

  our stories or I worked there and it wasn't like that at all or I worked [TS]

  there in my group was good but I know other groups that we're like this [TS]

  lots of people and that is the new york times but everywhere on the web are [TS]

  throwing in their own stories about amazon has a big company a lot of people [TS]

  that work there tonight think the most interesting part of this well I guess if [TS]

  you didn't know this is what it was like an Amazon and by the way this is what [TS]

  it's like in a lot of companies also particularly startups although it's a [TS]

  little bit more appropriate for it to be that way and starts because the startup [TS]

  it's like lots of hard work but also potentially lots of water as Amazon so [TS]

  big that at this point you could work yourself to death and it's not like [TS]

  you're going to be multi millionaire of your stock options in a few years [TS]

  whereas in a startup you have a vanishingly small chance of doing that [TS]

  but at least it's a chance that's often overstated I know but it like it's made [TS]

  90 hoping Amazon just operating as if it's like oh you're gonna get all these [TS]

  options this doctrine Bubba blah but that's like if you're gonna work [TS]

  yourself to death for companies make it be your startup like the start but you [TS]

  founded that you have equity in that you're going to get rich off of this [TS]

  exceeds your gonna be around if it fails that i think is the only sort of [TS]

  reasonable way and even that is probably not a good idea because almost all [TS]

  startups fail and so you know but if you want to give it to run that is the thing [TS]

  to do your company your thing I'm not gonna be your company you're probably [TS]

  not gonna get richer [TS]

  stock probably don't work is there any way some people are working hard some [TS]

  people like that some people thrive in that some people don't have to buy me [TS]

  some people do want to dedicate themselves to their job i'm suppose two [TS]

  sides to this story here depending on how you look at it but the most [TS]

  interesting part was the reaction you know that's going to damage control [TS]

  because they're going to have a difficulty recruiting is now everyone [TS]

  thinks Amazon is a terrible sweatshop which by the way it is probably an [TS]

  especially much more so for a blue-collar workers rather the white [TS]

  collar people are writing their color their website or whatever and no one [TS]

  seems to care about that but anyway putting that aside how do you pronounce [TS]

  his last name pesos pesos I can never get a right anyway Jeff Bezos CEO Amazon [TS]

  put out the statement and the little things I pulled from it is these two [TS]

  little passengers I don't recognize this Amazon the Amazon as described the new [TS]

  york times this article doesn't describe the Amazon I know and I love that aspect [TS]

  of this thing that he's writing because all he's doing is restating the problem [TS]

  I am totally sure that he doesn't recognize that Amazon begins his [TS]

  experience at Amazon for the CEO is not like this at all he works himself to [TS]

  death but he's the CEO he stands to gain the most from it and he's working like [TS]

  crazy because he's a workaholic and that's what he likes to do his work life [TS]

  balance is exactly the way he wants it like this is what he made himself of [TS]

  course he doesn't recognize Amazon you don't recognize them because you're not [TS]

  a lowly Amazon employee being told the work yourself to death for no pay off [TS]

  your multi-millionaire who is a workaholic like a on muscular Steve Jobs [TS]

  made other people because that's what's in them and they're driven to do that [TS]

  and I'm sure there are employees who are like that as well then I can get there [TS]

  again some people just thrive in that type of atmosphere but the reason this [TS]

  works as a New York Times story is most people do not thrive in that atmosphere [TS]

  into most people it reads like a horror story and so you read and go oh my gosh [TS]

  I can't believe what it's like now I now if I ever had an idea that was gonna [TS]

  cram as I'm definitely not going to work there now because I read this article in [TS]

  things that are happening that's like my nightmare of the worst possible job I [TS]

  could ever have [TS]

  most people are gonna have that attitude and that's why I would try to fight the [TS]

  basis I want to sit down and said look I don't know a lot about a lot of people [TS]

  but I think I know a little bit but this point about [TS]

  professional programmers and if ever there was an employ a less inclined to [TS]

  be into the sort of gun ho just work work work stay in the office at late [TS]

  hours grinding grinding grinding it is the programmer for a giant fortune 500 [TS]

  company because programming i think is one of those type of things where bomber [TS]

  bomber herbicide will put a link in that it has one of those things where you [TS]

  can't like the harder you work the more you grind the worst you program like you [TS]

  have to have time that rest to think about things you have to walk the dog [TS]

  like Marco said you have to take a shower like that's where you actually [TS]

  solve all your program powers in the shower while you're walking the dog [TS]

  while you're sleeping soon as you wake up in the morning it's in your head if [TS]

  you stay late one night and try to work on this thing work work work work work [TS]

  like five extra hours there's no there's no point specifically for programming [TS]

  and if they're not that everyone the higher as a programmer but if you're [TS]

  going to say we only want you to work here if you thrive in this type of [TS]

  atmosphere you're gonna be missing out on a lot of really really great programs [TS]

  because in my experience great programmers tend to be less receptive to [TS]

  that type of work environment so it's not it's not conducive to good [TS]

  programming for example sales people who wanted the world's best sales person I [TS]

  bet they do thrive in this type of my own because it sells all dogs go go go [TS]

  right and that you know they're go-getters they can get the job done [TS]

  they're gonna put in long hours to do the business travel all the stuff that's [TS]

  not how programming work so I don't know that all the positions that they're [TS]

  filling and marketing and then other things that are outside engineering and [TS]

  again setting aside the blue collar workers that are being exploited in the [TS]

  factories packing back in just 100 degree heat in a building with air [TS]

  conditioning work for Amazon thoughtfully provides ambulances outside [TS]

  so when the workers dropped the head are drop dead but collapse on the line there [TS]

  with outside to the ambulance that that is a whole separate issue and that is [TS]

  terrible so really just put this in perspective we're talking about is like [TS]

  highly-paid programmers being asked not to see their kids not people being asked [TS]

  to working under degree heat and a factory and collapsing from the heat and [TS]

  being taken to company-sponsored am going [TS]

  but anyway I think it's just a bad business this is not the way you should [TS]

  run a company of Amazon size is not the way you should manage organization that [TS]

  is focused on engineering and they would say back to me [TS]

  our company's incredibly successful look at the amazing things that he done where [TS]

  a giant retailer we do all these things like aspirin easy to do you think your [TS]

  greatest services in the reason we're like that is because we have decided to [TS]

  and I would say no you do that because despite that attitude than ever to [TS]

  making recreated creativity and can learn that the sides problems then we go [TS]

  back and forth in the end because he owned the company and cast but we played [TS]

  out that little thing you have many podcasts that's right have multiple [TS]

  broadcast thank you Jeff [TS]

  undersell yourself right now were those my thoughts coming out of this and so I [TS]

  think it's good for stories like this to be in the media to sort of raise [TS]

  awareness of this Marcos ever been in a job like this but I don't think I've [TS]

  ever been a job like that but I've been I've been Jason two jobs like this I've [TS]

  known people in jobs like as I've seen parts of organizations that I've been in [TS]

  that are like this and it really is my worst nightmare like I would never want [TS]

  a job like this and I know a lot of people who who wouldn't they could [TS]

  possibly happen in this thing about hiring engineers and programmers they [TS]

  can get work elsewhere so if you don't have a stock that is going to have the [TS]

  potential to skyrocket in the near future [TS]

  can be difficult to track those people if your gonna work to make this my first [TS]

  job at a school was working for a company that actually meet slot machines [TS]

  for Native American casinos in Oklahoma and the company at the time was gonna [TS]

  maybe 10 or 15 developers and they were all they were all acts EA folks like [TS]

  well there they were part of a company that was bought by EA EA ruined it is he [TS]

  is off to do and so these word I generally there were no women their time [TS]

  that we're developers so they're all guys they were typically in their late [TS]

  thirties early forties generally speaking completely single [TS]

  and generally speaking didn't really have a whole lot else to do other than [TS]

  work in not that they weren't great great great guys and I don't mean that [TS]

  disparagingly is the fact the matter was they didn't have spouses or children in [TS]

  many of them didn't seem to have a whole lot of hobbies other than work and so [TS]

  they worked constantly just constantly and here was I came in for Ashley's [TS]

  right out of school and I didn't want to work constantly I didn't want to work [TS]

  non-stop in my left the company mostly because I had been asked to do this [TS]

  really kind of impossible project for trade show and I worked I i dont member [TS]

  now but i wanna say was 11 or 12 hours a day for a month or two [TS]

  including most weekend days trying to get this thing to work and eventually [TS]

  did get it to work and then the trade show came and they were preparing [TS]

  everything they were going to show and then just cited you know what we're not [TS]

  gonna show that after all and I was furious I was beyond furious because [TS]

  here was I busted my butt for all that time and it was like well we don't need [TS]

  it after I think so and I don't know maybe that makes me a millennia old in [TS]

  the disparaging way maybe that makes me not a team player but I just thought it [TS]

  was ridiculous that here was I couldn't do any of the things I wanted to do for [TS]

  a month and then they just up and decided oh yeah we don't need that after [TS]

  all and I left the company you should not get a job in the games industry [TS]

  totally absolutely right you're absolutely right but I know any better [TS]

  the time yeah that's part part of that I think again speaking to programming [TS]

  which is the profession that I think we're almost million with even Marco [TS]

  large companies is that that experience of having like a miniature version of [TS]

  the game developers call crunch time where something needs a ship and people [TS]

  everyone puts in long hours and it's all hands on deck I think every program goes [TS]

  through that even if only on their own projects for like a fake artificial [TS]

  deadlines they made for themselves but certainly in other companies where you [TS]

  have a software product release or trade show or something and everyone is [TS]

  killing themselves to to make a deadline that experience I think its formative [TS]

  for programmers because it teaches you like it makes you it's difficult you [TS]

  know it's probably the most grueling physical thing that programmers have to [TS]

  do because programming is not a grueling physical job you know you're not [TS]

  cracking rocks with a hammer all day you're pressing keys on the keyboard and [TS]

  sitting in a chair right but it does take a toll on you in terms of lack of [TS]

  sleep or even just sitting in a chair all day or not eating well and you know [TS]

  nevermind senior family whatever they don't have that you're just you know a [TS]

  single person right out of college what I think you learn from that is you [TS]

  reflect on it after the experience which Oakley and whatever trade show whatever [TS]

  you say what is it about the piece of software that we were creating together [TS]

  that made it so difficult to do do the things we want to do like how you know [TS]

  it's disturbing cliche that you see all the posters work smarter not harder but [TS]

  in programming like they've actually something behind that which is if you [TS]

  had done you're all your work differently how would it have made your [TS]

  later work easier if you you know and that's that's basically programming it's [TS]

  like you write the program then you realize how you should have written in [TS]

  the next time if you're lucky enough to write a similar program you right in the [TS]

  better way and then you realize how you shouldn't have any differently in the [TS]

  next time you realize you have made it easy to change along these axes but did [TS]

  not realize that this other axis was the one that is going to change the long as [TS]

  it is really hard to change in that way like that's all programming is doing [TS]

  something and realizing how you could have done it differently to make the [TS]

  future changes that you have to make for whatever reason easier to make it and so [TS]

  crunch time and that you know that hellish experience of just having to sit [TS]

  there and just grind yourself into dust to try to get work done [TS]

  teaches you how to do your job better a little bit but I think it also teaches [TS]

  you [TS]

  how incredibly inefficient it is to bang your head against that wall that how if [TS]

  you add nearly got home at a reasonable hour had a full night's sleep becoming [TS]

  the next morning you to solve these problems faster and better I think [TS]

  that's another thing you learned during crunch and that gets back to the this [TS]

  article that I think I don't even know is related to the Amazon thing I [TS]

  remember a song about these links in here but some dust in moscow muscovites [TS]

  talking about how the 40 hour work week is not a you know he says it's not a [TS]

  combat great compromise between capitalism in hedonism it's actually a [TS]

  carefully considered outcome according from a thing of profit maximizing [TS]

  research by Henry Ford and early 20th century basically if you if you during [TS]

  this experiment to say hey if we with work ppl eighties our 80 hours a week [TS]

  versus 10 hours of agrees 20 like there is a maximum where you get the most [TS]

  productivity out of people who worked on my crazy they get tired they get sloppy [TS]

  they get angry they do worse work they're less productive and of course if [TS]

  you have them work one hour week your output is trying to find out that forty [TS]

  hours as some magic numbers or whatever but you're trying to find that that the [TS]

  maximum where you get the most productivity out of people on a [TS]

  sustained basis if you drive people like dogs maybe you'll get extra productivity [TS]

  out of them but you pay for it later and if you want to have a sustained business [TS]

  like maybe that's what you doin starts like there will be no sustained business [TS]

  if these two weeks leading up to this trade show so you got yourself a deal to [TS]

  trade show again I would say make sure you kill yourself for potential payoff [TS]

  that's going to benefit you not somebody else because it's not worth killing [TS]

  yourself or somebody else but you want to find a way to get the most out of [TS]

  people on a sustained basis and usually that ends up being a work week in a work [TS]

  environment especially for programming it does not look scary from the outside [TS]

  but you work reasonable hours that you get a good nights that you get exercise [TS]

  the right that is the only way in any human endeavor to have sustained [TS]

  productivity out of people and programmers are not like people breaking [TS]

  rocks with hammers in that if you grind one of them into dust and they leave the [TS]

  company with RSI have a nervous breakdown [TS]

  down or do something else terrible it's not so easy to just find another one is [TS]

  not just like a warm body in a cherry just need balance for your giant barge [TS]

  right it's supposedly a highly skilled job and so if you're grinding up those [TS]

  workers and spitting them out [TS]

  that's even worse than if you're doing the same thing it's worse economically [TS]

  if not morally speaking and doing the same thing for a position where people [TS]

  get disgruntled need you can easily find new applicants for it [TS]

  well so that's something that I i think you I i think that actually is part of [TS]

  the case that the industry does have so many like you know the right thing to do [TS]

  for our perspective because the three of us are all pretty experienced [TS]

  programmers who are approaching middle age who would like to think are wise and [TS]

  care about spending time with their families right and so we are the ones [TS]

  saying you know to do things with higher quality you should really have wiser [TS]

  older programmers who are more experienced who will therefore work way [TS]

  more efficiently than young crappy programmers who were being worked 80 [TS]

  hours a week but there are so many of those young programmers willing to go [TS]

  with companies like Amazon which by the way I mean this story to me was nothing [TS]

  new because I've heard horror stories about how horrible working for Amazon is [TS]

  four years I don't I don't think this is a surprise to anybody who's ever paid [TS]

  attention to Amazon and and people who work there but I think there's enough [TS]

  people willing to go into this business to go work for a big company or start [TS]

  there there's enough input of new new computer science graduates or new people [TS]

  who are who are teaching as a programmer who want a job all over the world [TS]

  there's enough of these people coming in it's kinda like the entertainment [TS]

  business where the the employers are able to abuse and and burn people out [TS]

  and they will do this because there is there still a huge supply you know the [TS]

  way they always complain and and make much noise about how there's a shortage [TS]

  of good programmers in this country is I think mostly BS I think it's totally [TS]

  true there is a shortage of good program [TS]

  like your analogy the entertainment history is exactly right but that's why [TS]

  the game that's why games development is so bad because everybody wants to be a [TS]

  game developer hey doesn't that sound fun and companies take advantage of that [TS]

  enthusiasm you know there's a million applicants for this thing because you [TS]

  get to be a game developer you get to make games isn't that awesome now the [TS]

  ground you into Dustin when you burn out there is another enthusiastic person [TS]

  games developer games are awesome of grandeur but Amazon is not an [TS]

  entertainment company Amazon I don't think has that kind of drugs and then [TS]

  you just left with the generic drug I want to be in the tech industry which is [TS]

  better than you know you know working in the mailroom at a foreign country [TS]

  company and certainly pays better but it's nothing too big to the games [TS]

  industry like you said the entertainment history I want to be in TV I want to be [TS]

  in movies like that is a perfect opportunity to grind up enthusiastic [TS]

  naive people that I just think the supply of programmers is it's more [TS]

  difficult to find it a good program is now maybe emily has the right strategy [TS]

  we would rather grind into dust tons of programmers and not even use them the [TS]

  most efficiently and the ones that survive will learn really hard lessons [TS]

  and become amazing you know efficient people in the ones that don't oh well [TS]

  I'll even get a job someplace else but was just scooped up a new set of new [TS]

  graduates may be that an aggregate gives them better throughput than trying to [TS]

  find programmers and give them a nice environment worker I don't know because [TS]

  Google seems to me [TS]

  takes the other attitude where they try to give you know they try not to work [TS]

  people to death they try to give people you know room to figure out what it is [TS]

  they're going to do and it's like a nice work environment and Apple kinda seems [TS]

  in the middle where they don't tell you what they're doing but from my [TS]

  understanding of the people I work super duper hard I worry that Apple's grinding [TS]

  them up gently tell because I think the screens are modeled by whatever bro a [TS]

  bit and an apple that the reasonable thing to do it is because they're more [TS]

  like entertainment i dont is working to take ensure I work for Apple iMac [TS]

  iPhones [TS]

  well i i think that used to be the case for a long time but I think now they're [TS]

  having a really big problem attracting and retaining good talent and has lots [TS]

  of reasons for this and one of them i think is this problem [TS]

  of they do work people really hard for me from what we've heard it sounds like [TS]

  they really do work people harder than what I would consider healthy and they [TS]

  consider that ok from from level all the way to the top and so this is the kind [TS]

  of thing like once workaholic sets into a company's culture it never leaves that [TS]

  is something that is so incredibly difficult or impossible to ever rollback [TS]

  it only ever gets its like being tough on crime you know that politicians can [TS]

  ever be less tough-on-crime [TS]

  it's the same thing like there's there's so many factors that just encourage it [TS]

  to build upon itself and to increase the workaholic I'm rather than ever [TS]

  Tony back and it's so that in Apple's case you know it's pretty clear from [TS]

  anecdotes from the executives all the way down to the employees that this is [TS]

  your company works and I don't think that's ever going to go away and that is [TS]

  that is one of the problems that is going to make it hard for Apple to [TS]

  attract and retain good talent over time and you know and you mentioned a few [TS]

  times so far John you mentioned that startups are kind of exempt from this [TS]

  and i dont I don't necessarily think that's true now not exempt but it's a [TS]

  better fit like that like to get a start about the ground is it's one of those [TS]

  activities that you gonna have to work it out to death but it's not you know [TS]

  it's not sustain doesn't type of thing where it's like this is not sustainable [TS]

  we can run a company this way if we really want to have sustained [TS]

  productivity needs to do expedient to start of its like sustained productivity [TS]

  of what we're gonna be out of business in two weeks if we don't do this thing [TS]

  you get this feature ready for the treasure which again is why most arms [TS]

  fell because you try really hard to do this thing it's you know it's a young [TS]

  man's game it's very short period of time there's a clear thing we're gonna [TS]

  try to do this thing and the time happen that you have exit strategies like it is [TS]

  not like I'm going to work in his company for thirty years and this is for [TS]

  thirty years I'm gonna act as a time in the first six months of a start like [TS]

  that's why I think you have to match the sort of culture and work ethic and [TS]

  amount of effort to the potential reward and to the expected time horizon so I'm [TS]

  not saying it's like good and starts kissing you know starts grind grind [TS]

  people up and spit them out as well but that's what started so far it is totally [TS]

  inappropriate for a company the size of Amazon Inc [TS]

  well but you have to nip that in the bud early because it builds over time [TS]

  because like startups typically take on the the the work culture of their [TS]

  founders like that that is just happen starts off as the founders as they grow [TS]

  the company still works the way the founders set it in motion to work either [TS]

  intentionally or not and so I've been fortunate that that my jobs have you [TS]

  know I've had crunch time here and there but it's never been the kind of thing [TS]

  that I hear about from from other people like it from someone is really horrible [TS]

  again companies or companies again it's never been that bad and and part of that [TS]

  is because I've always stood up for myself and I like end and I've always [TS]

  had I've always been at companies early enough to to have the ability to push [TS]

  back a little bit and identify myself a little bit and you know it doesn't [TS]

  always work but most of the time I was it will do it and this is the kind of [TS]

  thing that you can't just say well you know this one time we gotta push really [TS]

  hard but then then we're going to we're gonna be healthy and then we'll hire [TS]

  more help or whatever early because in reality the the later time over gonna [TS]

  we're gonna do this temporarily but then we're going to fix it that's how I'm [TS]

  never comes because after you finish with this horrible death race there's [TS]

  another one that comes up right afterwards but it does come I get things [TS]

  in the natural life cycle company is the founders they get the start about the [TS]

  ground have to be workaholics otherwise you don't succeed because that's the [TS]

  nature of the beast there but then I think most companies settle into sort of [TS]

  that happy middle aged where the company cars out places for people who just want [TS]

  to show up and you know punch the clock and do a boring job and not be too [TS]

  stressed about it or whatever that's what happens when companies have bigger [TS]

  turnout than most companies get this phenomenon of gigantic companies that [TS]

  are still run quote-unquote like startups where there [TS]

  r you know hungry and working their place it at this I think a fairly modern [TS]

  phenomenon I guess you know sweatshops is the oldest slavery in sweatshops the [TS]

  oldest form of like we're just gonna grab people up but in the sort of in our [TS]

  lifetimes the trajectory was if your startup at all you gotta do it quickly [TS]

  became a serious business where everything was much more relaxed and [TS]

  that's why small companies came major lunch in the late nineties to thousands [TS]

  of disruption and all that stuff and now I think the new normal but you're [TS]

  reacting to is like always happens a stage disruptive startup started by [TS]

  somewhere hot become successful because those guys work things out of death and [TS]

  that workaholic retains control the company and other phenomenon that is [TS]

  much more common in other news to you [TS]

  retains control of the company and pushes that culture down and all the [TS]

  employees and never let go because they're paranoid that they're gonna get [TS]

  their lunch eaten by the next little disruptive startup how close we had been [TS]

  that it started as a small everything he got fat and happy and then went from [TS]

  baton happy with a giant you know Apple advanced research thing called Apple [TS]

  about technology ATG art technology Group they were the point where they had [TS]

  people doing like you know architecture astronaut stuff making up these grand [TS]

  plans like open docx and Technology Group ATG tips to make any pie in the [TS]

  sky things that people who had jobs that is going to be like an Apple iPhone just [TS]

  hang around and think grand ideas and maybe noodle on a product or something [TS]

  that might become a products and then Steve Jobs came back and said we can't [TS]

  afford that we're going out of business [TS]

  cut down to the bone and turned it back into a workaholic culture so that is a [TS]

  weird you know Apple has a weird history anyway that is weird phenomena but I [TS]

  think it's what you react to Marco is the the Amazon even like Iran must [TS]

  PayPal test that kind of model where you never you never let the company get out [TS]

  of start-up phase because that's how you get his rep didn't just no matter how [TS]

  big you get even if you're as big as a man [TS]

  Apple the way you survive is by continuing to act as if you're in a [TS]

  startup but the but it's not in your not anymore and appropriate environment 22 [TS]

  grand people up like that because you can have a company with 30,000 employees [TS]

  all comes down to become multi-millionaires by the next quarter [TS]

  if you just have these numbers that's not going to happen right that time in [TS]

  the company's life is past its weird that when Apple had the second phase [TS]

  they made a whole bunch of millionaires out of stock options or whatever but [TS]

  again [TS]

  ok started company 270 before now a successful almost go out of business but [TS]

  not quite you know that's a tough lineup also you could almost go out of business [TS]

  and become the biggest company in the world you make a whole bunch of new [TS]

  millionaires and Apple did those people probably don't regret working in their [TS]

  fingers to the bone during that phase but that i think is an aberration as a [TS]

  good people working to the bone Amazon are not going to get the same pay offer [TS]

  their effort of investment ran i mean and this is actually I mean most [TS]

  startups that that come out of you know our industry you have to be like one of [TS]

  the first I don't know five people who work there to really see like a massive [TS]

  payoff in all likelihood you know I've had so many friends and so many [TS]

  companies so many startups I know very few of them actually had a meaningful [TS]

  payout from the stock options like it it just doesn't like the numbers are so far [TS]

  against it not even close [TS]

  like that shit like chances are you probably won't make anything for your [TS]

  stock options and if you do make something from them [TS]

  you you might make you know maybe an extra in the tens of thousands of [TS]

  dollars which is nice but not necessarily worth working ourselves to [TS]

  build for four years it's it's it doesn't usually work out the way they [TS]

  promise and but it is like entertainment business like they know the people who [TS]

  start service to people who funds are people who devised our lives they all [TS]

  know that the previous promises there in the end they they sell people on this [TS]

  promise and people come in thinking man to get stock options I'm gonna make a [TS]

  ton of money and the fact is it doesn't usually work out that way unless you [TS]

  unless you are one of the founders you know if you're one of the founders [TS]

  alone enough stock to make it work pretty well [TS]

  but if you come in as employee number forty or whatever you know the chances [TS]

  are you're not gonna make a ton of money on that but you're still gonna be this [TS]

  environment where it is insane workaholic awesome and everyone is [TS]

  pressuring you to dedicate your life to the company in every waking hour and by [TS]

  the way I don't think I've ever seen a startup fail because it didn't execute [TS]

  quickly enough [TS]

  have you ever seen that there are a lot of them sell for that reason but you [TS]

  know I don't know what that means like he should have gone faster [TS]

  well could you have done that this gets back to us talking about with like is it [TS]

  actually more productive past a certain point is that you can do crunch and you [TS]

  can for a certain period of time but you know you can go longer younger or [TS]

  whatever let's not make any more now just here but at a certain point you get [TS]

  massively diminishing returns and then negative returns here hoping to start up [TS]

  a short enough that you don't reach that point but for big companies on a [TS]

  sustained basis like you know what you're getting is like this started [TS]

  failed to start was going to fail anyway as I can tell you the 17 reason to start [TS]

  was gonna fail even if they had executed so he's easy to find out the reasons why [TS]

  a startup could fail but started as the one type of business where sometimes it [TS]

  really does matter if you'd actually been in that trade show is that the [TS]

  company had indeed could have really changed you know the history of your [TS]

  company or if this demo two important investor had gone better you would have [TS]

  got their round of funding instead you didn't like that's the life of the start [TS]

  of it always is balancing on a razor's edge of something I think that is a real [TS]

  thing happening then [TS]

  it's just that no one really knows you know a lot of a serendipity lot of it as [TS]

  a lot of it is right place right time lot of things you can't control but as [TS]

  far as I've been able to determine the successful strategy starts it's really [TS]

  really difficult to to succeed as a start up with this super laid back [TS]

  attitude unless you start off with basically unlimited funds are really [TS]

  long runway and a lot of money and forever but for the most part starting [TS]

  from zero you really do have to work hard for a short period of time and i [TS]

  think that the all-star phenomenon you brought the is lots of small companies [TS]

  trying bunch of ideas and finding out assess possible with a working I guess [TS]

  the whole thing and so try to disembark ok that's right now the startup try to [TS]

  stand america traded the pivot where you're trying to pretend you're the same [TS]

  company really started to same time as you don't want to find out three years [TS]

  later that your idea doesn't work you want to find out ASAP because you can't [TS]

  cruncher three years yeah you know the thing to me is in my personal opinion [TS]

  the best approach is whatever your job maybe just work really really hard [TS]

  coming out of school work in in early on your career work really hard to [TS]

  establish yourself and get yourself to the position that you have me you are [TS]

  making enough money that you are comfortable that could mean $30,000 it [TS]

  could be $100,000 it could be $300,000 agree three million dollars what however [TS]

  you define comfortable get too comfortable and once you're there then [TS]

  you really shouldn't have to do a death march ever again and if you very rarely [TS]

  I worked very hard for a very long to me a very long time given how old I am and [TS]

  I'm now at a company that I rarely have to do a death march I could probably [TS]

  work harder I could probably make more money I could probably even find a [TS]

  different job where I could work harder still and make more money still but in [TS]

  the end of the day we are comfortable in I am able to pretty reliably put in [TS]

  about 45 hours a week and then come home to my family and to me anyway that's [TS]

  more important I work so that I i can live I do not live to work and also [TS]

  you're working so that you can crunch at home now because I i think i also truly [TS]

  best analogy for the best but the sort of second front like it you just had a [TS]

  school and you're really you wanna get your career establishing working hard [TS]

  you job whatever it is make sure you're not working too hard make sure you note [TS]

  be exploited then you have a kid and you realize how you can crunch time at home [TS]

  to its called the infant twins are even more like that's the type of thing where [TS]

  you feel again that you know your child is basically your startup times the [TS]

  million right you are willing to crunch that the whole point like if you decide [TS]

  to have children and this is what you gonna do you like it's super hard it's [TS]

  going to be a lot of work in this crunch timing kids and it's not when the kid is [TS]

  fifteen years although depending on the kid or whatever but yet so hard and you [TS]

  will put in long hours and you will be you know at the end of the rope Europe [TS]

  and going out of your mind but that's what you're signing up for when you have [TS]

  a startup or have a kid or whatever but I think for most people that is a choice [TS]

  they're making me feel like it is well worth it to do for their kids not so [TS]

  much more that to do it for Amazon the doesn't care about them and will never [TS]

  visit them on their old so in summary the best startup is a child Baltimore [TS]

  start-up dependent and also I just like to point out to that end John III still [TS]

  disagree on a lot of this I don't I don't agree with the assumption in our [TS]

  industry that crunch time is required for a startup success because I have [TS]

  seen many kind of examples to startups that have succeeded that do very well [TS]

  that don't do crazy crunch time burnout a workaholic well let's put it this way [TS]

  it is it is a common characteristic of stars that succeed whether it's [TS]

  necessary and I guess it's not really necessary just so happened that it's [TS]

  just a correlation [TS]

  causation fact those ones are succeeding despite the crunch I'm going to believe [TS]

  that but you have to say it's highly correlated like successful startups they [TS]

  all have stories about trucks right she would you say it's sufficient but not [TS]

  necessary I don't get it seems pretty darn strong like i I totally think it's [TS]

  possible to see without it because again I think even more important than how [TS]

  much you crunch is right idea right place right time right talents like [TS]

  things some things you can control some things you can't control those are much [TS]

  more important than how hard you work because the comment the common theme [TS]

  that I think an all-star upstairs including the ones that fail is a bunch [TS]

  of people working really hard it was not correlated with success is just like if [TS]

  you're in a startup this is the way they're done I think what you're saying [TS]

  is like if all the startups got like a big started conventional said let's all [TS]

  agree it all starts in the entire world we're not gonna drive ourselves into the [TS]

  ground with the habits of the same ratio I think they probably exactly the same [TS]

  ratio successes and who the successes are makeshift around a little bit but [TS]

  not in any significant way and it just it's just like it's like a race I give [TS]

  everyone has been the race decided they were going to walk instead of run the [TS]

  race would be slower but everyone else also they'll run you mean by can say I [TS]

  don't think it's necessary to run to have a race if if we all just walked and [TS]

  work on and we just said you can't have both feet off the ground at the same [TS]

  time the results of the race would be the same but it's human nature you you [TS]

  just wanna run even if you know you're tired faster I don't know this is [TS]

  terrible and I just ate doesn't match what I seen like I've seen like to me [TS]

  that the big crunch time is kind of like people who always talk about how busy [TS]

  and stressed out they are it's like that it's like a voluntary take on of stress [TS]

  and it is you it is almost always self-imposed and optional but you see [TS]

  everyone else running don't you see everyone else running and you feel like [TS]

  you have to run to and again if you feel like well if they were on a I wouldn't [TS]

  be running but they are running so I feel like I have to run the question is [TS]

  would you actually be like if you could run the experiment if you get a diverse [TS]

  of people or something and like you said you guys aren't allowed to question you [TS]

  guys are just like the productivity thing [TS]

  wouldn't they be more productive if they had a good night's sleep but I think [TS]

  they went for young company there are events and deadlines it was a [TS]

  self-imposed not that that are significant enough they can make or [TS]

  break the company is not true for a larger company and so by crunching you [TS]

  can temporarily increase your productivity so you are it's like you [TS]

  know juicing are taking steroids or whatever you are temporarily increasing [TS]

  your productivity knowing full well maybe not knowing what you're gonna find [TS]

  out that your productivity is going to fall off a cliff after a short period [TS]

  time because the most important thing right now is who is ready in time for [TS]

  the street Joe you know what [TS]

  honestly I've never seen that I i've never seen a company that had to rush to [TS]

  make a trade show or investor meeting or anything where that was actually really [TS]

  gonna be a decision like usually either you have traction are you don't either [TS]

  your product is you know is rooted in a good idea is to end his get its fine [TS]

  audience or it isn't and usually it doesn't come down to one day 1 deadline [TS]

  one meeting one presentation [TS]

  not just one goal in life that you use your career temblor as an example like [TS]

  you it may not have been to the crisis of conscience but there was a time early [TS]

  on when you were worried about servers going down and you would get paged in [TS]

  the middle of the night or whatever that's basically that's a work-life [TS]

  balance that you would never accept now but had you not been there to fix some [TS]

  icicle problem in the middle of the night or whatever and Tumblr got the [TS]

  reputation for the side that was always down that could really affected you know [TS]

  tumblr might not have taken office has lots of other sites that were similar to [TS]

  Tumblr and what you know that type of thing of like oh it's you know it has [TS]

  bugs are it's always down or doesn't work right at the sign up like now but [TS]

  you're killing yourself to do it but certainly you are working really hard [TS]

  during that time because there was only a few people and it's not like you have [TS]

  this giant staff of people to watch all the services it was you write that is [TS]

  what i'm talking about I'm not talking about like that you didn't sleep for [TS]

  seven days straight to make some changes every month is different but during that [TS]

  time when a small group of people trying to keep this site is growing incredibly [TS]

  fast up and running so that we think you could take advantage of the traction [TS]

  than you had that was an important thing to do and if you had not done that in [TS]

  said you know what I'm going to ignore that [TS]

  page and I'm only gonna work from nine to five and I'll bring the series back [TS]

  up in the morning that would have materially affected the prospects of [TS]

  success and probably would have got you boot up the company that's like this [TS]

  like look at a couple of us here you can't just say officer in the morning [TS]

  because your work-life balance is important you have to do it and you felt [TS]

  responsible for doing and you want to do it and you were interested in doing and [TS]

  you did it and Tumblr successful but don't you think there's a connection [TS]

  between that there is a connection but I think it's a relatively loose one lake [TS]

  was taking off whether you know whether ahead the side up or not and if I took [TS]

  an hour to fix the site or five minutes to fix the site didn't really matter but [TS]

  you couldn't come at you can come in the next morning and do it you can say you [TS]

  know what I look at that tomorrow [TS]

  sometimes we sometimes probably wouldn't even know that sometimes are monitoring [TS]

  system failed us and we weren't alerted the problems and things were down for [TS]

  hours and it was fine like I mean like I was put this example back then like [TS]

  Flickr was down for like a whole four day weekend one time you know 2008 ish a [TS]

  week later everyone forgot yeah I mean 2020 is a good example to where they [TS]

  were down but I think that after they crossed the hump like you know me you [TS]

  don't know what's on the other side of the Haunted certain inevitability that [TS]

  takes on it's just like when you're on the the near side of the hopping out the [TS]

  far side of them you're never gonna get over you never going to become the thing [TS]

  that that people talk about being down for four days and I see you in the [TS]

  beginning [TS]

  have some minimum level of dealing with growth in a way that lets you just start [TS]

  you know taking off like I mean again just think about how you work it was it [TS]

  all just a mistake that you were putting in those long hours and worrying about [TS]

  things and if you would just known if you had no more than you are just like [TS]

  just chill don't worry about it don't work such long hours in the company [TS]

  would have been equally successful where you just running to see so everyone else [TS]

  running you're saying that you should have just been working from nine to five [TS]

  and in the end you're sort of hard work and dedication to making sure things [TS]

  were up all the time was foolish foolish expenditure of energy issues just like [TS]

  if you had known then you know now you would just working nine-to-five [TS]

  competent and the fact that the success of the company would have been equal [TS]

  you could be right but the bombing as you ran because our warehouse running [TS]

  and I think that will continue to happen most of the time I did just work you [TS]

  know 92508 whatever it might be like 10 27 every 10 to six but like most of the [TS]

  time that's all I did I was not programming at home for tumblr ever like [TS]

  that hardly it happen maybe twice like ever adequately like it like that hardly [TS]

  ever happened that was not at all normal most of the for the most part I [TS]

  maintained a very healthy work-life balance with their islands you were [TS]

  sleeping next to your phone or yes but that was a lot of that on his [TS]

  self-imposed harassed and and that was mostly because we took too long to hire [TS]

  a system in which was partly my fault cuz I kept saying you know what I still [TS]

  got this you know i mean it was certainly probably my fault but if you [TS]

  didn't have that drive that self-imposed stress don't you think that someone beat [TS]

  David or someone else would eventually get to the point of you know what you [TS]

  you either need to start sleeping with your phone ringing to hire someone to [TS]

  sleep with their phone like if you didn't have that if you weren't as as [TS]

  proud of your work is you are then I think it would have caused problems it's [TS]

  possible I mean it's hard to know what would have been different but we we a [TS]

  tumblr in those early days when news me just mean David we did not have a [TS]

  culture of work holla some really David pushed himself a lot harder than I push [TS]

  myself but I wasn't really penalized for that for the most part you know he he [TS]

  will be thinking about a conflict that says David you know he he would be [TS]

  thinking about anything constantly like it whatever is whatever his work is that [TS]

  the rest of his life will be thinking I constantly just the kind of person but [TS]

  but I am you know I try to have a more separated balance between home and work [TS]

  in my side projects around let your family versus my job or whatever so I [TS]

  think your skill may be calibrated strangely because the amount of the [TS]

  amount of time and effort you put into your work and now is probably still [TS]

  higher than most people who were in those fat and happy jobs not even close [TS]

  maybe you haven't spent enough time in the Napa coming to see exactly how it [TS]

  works [TS]

  your site maybe you're not as big or as David but you have a higher than average [TS]

  drive to do things I mean I think Casey would agree on that [TS]

  like the amount of stuff that you have to do is ask that you actually do you [TS]

  you need to be doing stuff you need to have lots of things you're doing and you [TS]

  work hard at them harder than you actually need to work so I think your [TS]

  scale may be off a little bit I'm willing to believe that you don't work [TS]

  as hard as David because you know tumblers his thing and you're brought on [TS]

  right and so successful companies that are down about workaholics or whatever [TS]

  but in the grand scheme of things like that about your questions like does that [TS]

  mean you had to maybe maybe not like you can't run the experiment go back in time [TS]

  and say I'm going to do it again but I'm gonna do it differently that's awesome [TS]

  in earlier I'm going to just have a laid-back attitude and everything will [TS]

  be fine because really that's not what matters in the end what matters is we [TS]

  had the right idea we have the right design we have the right you know so [TS]

  many other things . our timing is right you know the choice to be made about [TS]

  what the product was made the right choices about product designs that there [TS]

  are so many things you know we made the right choices about when to take funding [TS]

  when not to take funding should be you know you guys like Mark Zuckerberg hold [TS]

  the tortured history of Facebook and how so many companies tried to acquire and [TS]

  how he said no doubt I could have been a terrible mistake and how hard to keep [TS]

  working hard working people under him and all that other stuff it's difficult [TS]

  to say but you know whether it's necessary or not it seems to be a [TS]

  characteristic of the startup that kind of in the same way that is [TS]

  characteristic of the games industry and the same way you could say that it's not [TS]

  necessary and it shouldn't be done but it is what we have now and to change it [TS]

  I think you have to change your startup's four games industry you have [TS]

  to change the incentives or maybe you have to have workers are unionized you [TS]

  have to have a backlash that happened a little while ago with DA you know [TS]

  to be a spouse's and all the employees getting complaining of getting ground up [TS]

  by the machine I think this New York Times story about Amazon is part of that [TS]

  phenomenon raising awareness about this issue among the pampered white-collar [TS]

  workers to the paper white-collar workers can have angry blog posts in a [TS]

  medium post about it citing Henry for the system working much this week is [TS]

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  out there from the nice old ones I dot com dot net all the way to the stupid [TS]

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  best search I've seen for all these demands [TS]

  pressure to meet him anywhere else you know that it's usually a pretty [TS]

  unpleasant experience anywhere else you do it you know it's at best it's ugly [TS]

  and confusing at worst if you like you being ripped off for Tascam however I [TS]

  i've never had these problems I have you so many domain name registrars over the [TS]

  years however I've never had these problems with their site is respectful [TS]

  of you the user it doesn't try to scam you it doesn't hurt Rick you later they [TS]

  do not believe in heavy handed up selling or weird little you know [TS]

  confusing promotions trying to buy something you don't need they don't work [TS]

  like that and their site is incredibly well designed and it's easy to use so [TS]

  you go in there you know you have to buy something and go to control panel [TS]

  whatever you wanna do it makes sense it's nicely designed it looks good [TS]

  it's easy to use you can figure it out I even even sites that seemed well [TS]

  intentioned to me I've used many records even the ones seen well-intentioned [TS]

  their stuff is still ugly and confusing to actually use however is both [TS]

  well-intentioned and well designed and easy to use it is so rare to find as [TS]

  I've never found her in this business it is great so check out however they even [TS]

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  check it out lots of great options at however for registering domains post to [TS]

  your email whatever you need to do go to hover dot com and use promo code [TS]

  uneventful week for 10% off your first purchase thanks a lot to cover for [TS]

  sponsoring our show once again one more bit on a work call them before I move on [TS]

  I want people to think that is all bad I'm thinking of you know the times that [TS]

  I have various places I worked where I have one particularly since I came home [TS]

  on a weekend programming problem [TS]

  database design programming combo problem that I have been working all [TS]

  week and had come up with a solution that kind of work but it wasn't [TS]

  satisfied with it and I think I woke up like Saturday morning and had a good [TS]

  idea for how to do it I think I've finally figured out and I just rewrote [TS]

  it all in a weekend why does that happen like part of work a whole is among the [TS]

  founders and among everybody else is that if you have a job that you love [TS]

  doing if you love programming you will find yourself thinking about your idle [TS]

  time again walking the dog taking a shower and sometimes you know this is [TS]

  all pretty kids if you you know if you don't have kids again if you don't have [TS]

  kids you realize how much free time you have so enjoyed you know youth is wasted [TS]

  on the young and free time is wasted on people with no kids that you actually [TS]

  have a lot of time even he married I was married at the time but there is enough [TS]

  time for you to acted to spend one weekend you know reasonable hour [TS]

  stopping for meals not staying up late or anything but just like you know this [TS]

  weekend I'm gonna do this thing I want to do it I guess I was invested in the [TS]

  company was a small issue company that have been [TS]

  by larger company but it was a bunch of people who are all friends who are [TS]

  working on a project in the thing that we really believed in a place that [TS]

  e-books and everything and you know it's something that we all bleed into was [TS]

  important to get this done and you know it wasn't any sort of external deadline [TS]

  there wasn't any reason this had to be done I had already done it work I just [TS]

  had a better idea for it and I enjoy programming so what about you know [TS]

  getting back to the market lifestyle when I did that weekend fun with a [TS]

  program programming is funded your programmer you like programming with a [TS]

  sucker for doing work on the weekend no but it really has to be on your own [TS]

  terms like so I think that's the difference where if you feel like you [TS]

  have to do this to keep your job or your being pressured to do it or like the [TS]

  culture at work is making you put in hours they don't want to work for you [TS]

  there's an expectation that you can do on the weekend no one had an expectation [TS]

  I was gonna rewrite this perfectly good working thing that I had rain during the [TS]

  week during a raid on a weekend because I had a better idea I wanted to do it [TS]

  and it was fun and so that's like the light side of this where if you're lucky [TS]

  enough to have a job that you enjoy and your quote unquote leisure time activity [TS]

  in the weekend is to do more programming even for your job that no one asked you [TS]

  to do because it will make you feel better and you come in the next week and [TS]

  be like line that can delete that crap that are at last week and replace it [TS]

  with this thing I rewrote entirely weekend so much cleaner and so much [TS]

  nicer so much more confidence in its bug free and it's easier to expand in these [TS]

  ways like that's a fun thing to do if your program again we should all be [TS]

  lucky enough to have the type of job that we actually enjoyed doing it so I [TS]

  guess probably rare cos how often do you work in a company that you feel that [TS]

  personally invested in how often do you want to do that the files I get from it [TS]

  these days is probably I mean I will find myself thinking about work problems [TS]

  during the weekend in the shower or drifting off to sleep I just usually [TS]

  save those ideas and I go back to the office on Monday to working on this like [TS]

  you know what they get enough my time [TS]

  when you have kids you can't like if you know it's it's a phase in life what [TS]

  would you rather be doing this because I can't imagine I guess the closest I was [TS]

  doing my reviews where I would carve out time to do reviews but even that if I [TS]

  like boy if I wasn't getting paid these areas I would stop doing them a long [TS]

  time ago right so there has to be a balance so anyway I just like make it [TS]

  seem like if you are working really hard to your job and bringing work home with [TS]

  you it's not always a bad sometimes you're choosing to do it and then it and [TS]

  then feels it feels better even though the same thing oh you are you basically [TS]

  doing unpaid work for the man on Iran time you're a sucker sometimes it's on a [TS]

  great there's definitely been times that I have not been able to get a work [TS]

  problem in my head and the best way to get out of my head is to get it out of [TS]

  my head and put it on paper so to speak and just do it by one minute that market [TS]

  sheets on the region of this is that when his boss lets and off the weekend [TS]

  sometimes he writes things and go just because it's fun [TS]

  his bosses also him but it's a different him it's like the working during the [TS]

  weekend and then it's like you know what I can write the song go so you can tell [TS]

  your boss later I wrote on go over the weekend it's awesome it's like it's nice [TS]

  that things like two or three sponsors this week [TS]

  harry's will be Parker and hover and we will see you next week [TS]

  now the show they didn't even need to be accidental [TS]

  accidental [TS]

  case [TS]

  it was a joke and a team article [TS]

  time has no meaning anyway until school then we can't do weekdays will certainly [TS]

  have me oh yeah I know I can't wait for that to begin to that we had a nice 14 [TS]

  going by the way I i think that you you are probably overestimating how much I [TS]

  actually work [TS]

  timewise well nowadays I know but I'm just saying like you put it this way you [TS]

  put in more effort than I think I would put in your position on OKC can do you [TS]

  think he if you are Marcus position in life would you put in as much effort as [TS]

  he does on various projects that he does it would you slack off nicely don't know [TS]

  half of me wants to say I would slack off ten times more than the other half [TS]

  me says I think you might be overestimating how much time Marquez [TS]

  been sitting in front of the computer you guys you are both smart curious [TS]

  programmers you would get bored senseless if you weren't using your [TS]

  brain yeah I'm not saying you doing it like to be a magnanimous it's the same [TS]

  with all of us like here bring itself to do right and it's like that's what I [TS]

  workaholics deal to you must use exactly the same he's like look at why not do I [TS]

  don't do it under spaceships and electric cars my brain I have to do this [TS]

  it's not like it's barely even a choice like that is the type of person they are [TS]

  I just feel like the [TS]

  you have more I I have a higher capacity for doing nothing when you do it think [TS]

  many many years like the idea of you know you gonna go on a vacation and sit [TS]

  on the beach and do nothing I'm pretty darn good at this point I see I can't I [TS]

  can do I'm going to the beach next week I'm planning on bringing my laptop like [TS]

  the idea of going to the beach and doing nothing that sounds awful like I i would [TS]

  i would enjoy about maybe two days of that I let me I gotta tell me bring back [TS]

  on now [TS]

  yeah I have a much higher tolerance when I can go much longer I agree that you [TS]

  know I couldn't do it like you around greenwood et itself to I would be [TS]

  building a machine that of sand you know doing something right [TS]

  overall like that to some degree it's just a question of how tolerant you have [TS]

  for it and I feel like part of his being old R you like I did all the working [TS]

  hard stuff and I still do it and [TS]

  just like just a plain old boring 4000 programmer workweek believes me more [TS]

  like a mentally tired and like the beautiful thing about vacations is you [TS]

  can get away from all your responsibilities except keeping your [TS]

  children alive and being yourself ride and just have 20 minutes to sit on a [TS]

  beach and just like just look at the clouds go by right and that it that that [TS]

  recharges me so that I can go back to my regular life I don't think I could do it [TS]

  year round but as I get older [TS]

  my tolerance for doing nothing gets greater yeah I we've talked about the [TS]

  sunshine used to heat going to the beach which I only ever did a handful of times [TS]

  in my life and I as i have gotten slightly older and Martin are the same [TS]

  age I found that if you put some sort of tent-like object on the beach I'm not [TS]

  sitting in direct sunlight and put a good book in my hands I could do that [TS]

  easily week that being said when I was at the beach last month I definitely [TS]

  spent a few hours programming toward the end towards the end of the trip because [TS]

  I had an itch I decided I wanted scratch and couldn't get out of my head of a [TS]

  program that patient but I think part of that has to do with like it the [TS]

  environment is not good for you don't have your big monitor you could spread [TS]

  out last week in a phone booth now is a bunch of the people there there's a [TS]

  bunch of the people there and they want to go places and do things and kids [TS]

  running around [TS]

  yeah that's it no I mean like for me like a zombie doing something with my [TS]

  brain on vacation usually that's what I will write or do other things I want [TS]

  program necessarily or a program very little while to some some kind of [TS]

  satellite project like the website but usually that's when I will write blog [TS]

  posts best is when I'm when I'm away as it did then I want to use my brain but i [TS]

  dont wanna do any programming because I would prefer to do it on my big nice [TS]

  home computer [TS]

  see this is why I refused to learn how to trade coffee and why I'm kind of glad [TS]

  I don't have a 19 inch monitor at home [TS]

  well that's the trick him it I don't want to get to the point where I can't [TS]

  function until had a cup of coffee or or I [TS]

  get a headache or I get cranky or I just don't think that things be alright I [TS]

  don't want that so I'm glad that I don't like coffee in in additionally I'm glad [TS]

  that I'm used to a 15 inch laptop I mean I don't just broken that analogy to [TS]

  substances I can see something but you did there I believe there is no physical [TS]

  addiction component to our screens I'm pretty sure that is just merely a [TS]

  preference and again a convenience it's like you know like if I get too used to [TS]

  not being half immersed in water all day all want to be dry every time I go to [TS]

  see you doing it my point is I don't feel I feel only ever so slightly [TS]

  handcuffed by not having a second monitor when I'm developing where is you [TS]

  feel completely neutered if you don't have a 25 + inch display as you're [TS]

  developing it it's really convenient it's like you know it's convenient to [TS]

  have a room that that fits your bed with more than six inches around all sides in [TS]

  the walls cause then you can walk around the bed to get onto it [TS]

  yeah you know like I don't want to use that one I want to make sure my bedroom [TS]

  to just has one foot rallies around the bed and I'll show me through a bit of a [TS]

  good used to a bigger room and when I go someplace else they won't be used to [TS]

  like your knowledge is breaking down there any way that you should be leaning [TS]

  on the fact that I don't want to get I don't want to be tethered to a desk I [TS]

  want to do my computing like you said sitting on the couch or whatever those [TS]

  are the advantages he should be playing at laptops not saying that really want [TS]

  to force yourself to use it in its monetary loss can be barking up the [TS]

  wrong tree with explaining why I think there are reasons for these are not them [TS]

  are not speaking of Casey do you have have you thought anymore about your [TS]

  computer decision that we talked about last week have you thought anymore about [TS]

  that since then [TS]

  well to be fair that was all the three days ago as we preserve the illusion [TS]

  lose last week [TS]

  all right right right right it was easily week ago thought long and hard [TS]

  really I don't know the problem of come to is I think all three did potential [TS]

  machines a Mac Mini 5 K and a MacBook Pro all three and I don't know all three [TS]

  of them not four of them all three of them have definite advantages they [TS]

  really honestly do and I can't figure out which which criterion i think is the [TS]

  most important is it having something that can move is it having something [TS]

  beautiful to look at [TS]

  isn't having something that I can barely see that stuffed in the corner that I [TS]

  only really use remotely or very rarely go physically in my can't figure out [TS]

  what I want and I think people said this on Twitter via feedback but I think the [TS]

  really wanna do is which is what I had planned last week is I'm just sit around [TS]

  see what comes in in the fall with regard to MacBook Pro updates and [TS]

  potentially any other kind of update and just see if that sways me one what one [TS]

  way like let's say for the sake of discussion that I decided I really [TS]

  wanted a 12 inch Retina Mac and the MacBook one wasn't out yet [TS]

  well you know then fast bowler the mechanism all my problems are solved [TS]

  maybe they'll be some others things some feature that I really really love in the [TS]

  new MacBook Pro or maybe even a new Mac Mini or the new 5 k I'm a canal say you [TS]

  know what darn it that's it that's for me but now I just really don't know [TS]

  well first of all as look suppose a new Mac Mini comes it'll still suck like [TS]

  it'll still be a bad deal it's still going to be a thousand though it'll [TS]

  still be at least $1,000 for a good spec it'll still not have very good options [TS]

  you know it it like you know if you look at the ones that we have today it's you [TS]

  know you got you max out at two cores you can barely get an i7 you max out at [TS]

  one terabyte built-in on only then if you do the fusion like it's it's the [TS]

  options you can even speak out higher if you wanted to let you know get into the [TS]

  iFixit territory about putting your own crap in there [TS]

  and even that's becoming harder and harder it's the Mac Mini is is so and I [TS]

  say this having one here being very happy with it but for your purposes I [TS]

  think again only if it's going to be used as a server only does that make [TS]

  sense I think thinking about it more as the editor of thinking about it more I [TS]

  think what you should probably do is get a 15 X program that's the most likely [TS]

  outcome because like the big thing is the way you are in a league if you work [TS]

  the way I work we always work in the same place in the house where you know [TS]

  you were you don't take a laptop on the couch and do real work like if you're [TS]

  always working in your office upstairs then get a five k done but because it [TS]

  isn't how you live and you make a good point about wanting to be with Aaron at [TS]

  night while you're working that makes a lot of sense and that's something that [TS]

  your home office can't offer you so if that's the way you work at home or your [TS]

  computer at home then i thinkI 14 inches is probably the best option for that [TS]

  because you know for anyone else like for four other people for people who [TS]

  don't program for a living or for people who have lower needs that was probably [TS]

  too big you know then in that case I would say get the 13 inch MacBook Pro [TS]

  because for most people that is like the nice middle of the road cover everything [TS]

  kind of computer for you I'd say you know your needs are higher go for the 15 [TS]

  and I i think the 15 inch MacBook Pro or 13 in general like the MacBook Pro / [TS]

  MacBook Air range is the default option for if you don't know what your needs [TS]

  will be just get one of those and in your case you don't know if you knew [TS]

  what you need would be in your needs to match my needs again get the five Cape [TS]

  done but because that's a big unknown for you still and and even if it was for [TS]

  me nail down and it probably wouldn't lineup much with my needs and I use mine [TS]

  or the way john is you know because you don't work the way we do and you don't [TS]

  know how you're gonna be working over the next four years I would say just [TS]

  wait for this guy like updates and then get the updated [TS]

  yeah it's most likely outcome the five k when we started the conversation last [TS]

  week I did not even entertain the five Ks an option but the more we talked [TS]

  about it the more I thought you know what if I if I dedicate myself to only [TS]

  being at my desk it really does make sense and if if I'm honest with you guys [TS]

  right now you know my current personal machine which admittedly has a platter [TS]

  hard drive which obviously changes whether or not it's usable as compared [TS]

  to my work laptop has a nasty but my personal machine today the wifi has been [TS]

  off for months and it's been connected via ethernet because I in since a 15 [TS]

  inch MacBook Pro because I never move it because I always will just grab my work [TS]

  computer because whether I want to work or play it has everything I want on it [TS]

  and so if we can get over the separation of church and state if you will [TS]

  I'm going to have this laptop my work laptop pretty much regardless and even [TS]

  if I left this job and got a different job or even if I left this job and work [TS]

  for myself I would probably end up getting a laptop regardless of whether [TS]

  of whatever other computers I have at home so there is a compelling argument [TS]

  for the five k iMac as much as I've really don't want to entertain it [TS]

  because I think it's ridiculous and stupid piece of furniture ya gotta do [TS]

  what I did with my HDTV and cut out a piece of cardboard the size of my Mac [TS]

  and stick it where you gonna put it in your house and then he liked his block [TS]

  morning sunlight that I like when I'm eating my breakfast doesn't look likely [TS]

  to get visible from the street and looks weird like pieces of furniture that baby [TS]

  have to figure out if there's a place for them that won't mess with the era [TS]

  tanks wherever you pronounce it kool John one-year departing tomorrow morning [TS]

  you can see me all sorts of pictures that probably won't be super jealous [TS]

  that he will see it can you can you have your family take pictures of you and [TS]

  then send those to us all the best only person takes pictures of anything it so [TS]

  bad then we go on like vacations with the rest of my family and my parents and [TS]

  sister and brothers they just let me take pictures for everybody now there's [TS]

  a lot of pictures of my kids and my wife and pictures of me and a medium of [TS]

  pictures of everybody else [TS]