0:00:00even let us give you a vid YouTube starting point and you quickly found
0:00:04found that when you click the day unit access facebook but he started off at
0:00:14the bottom
0:00:14do we have all of this week I put in the link here and how to pronounce this
0:00:19person's name and I realize I haven't followed the link to stall for you for a
0:00:27moment John you didn't do your homework I did it's in a tabloid there I wasn't
0:00:34doing that didn't help
0:00:35also it was lost it was lost amongst your tabs wasn't laws that was right
0:00:39next to the ATP PEP he knew exactly where it was the whole time I totally I
0:00:44just didn't actually click on it to keep open the tab you have to go to the thing
0:00:48and put it anyway this feedback as former colleague according to Google
0:00:52Translate which I'm sure it is accurate in this case regarding the eyesight
0:00:58replacement for iPhone six-plus like the problems that having to get it replaced
0:01:02under warranty or whatever question is there reason Apple can't just send a
0:01:07notification to the affected devices why do we have to go to a web form an
0:01:10interview serial number to find out if your device is the one type of problem
0:01:14and I thought that was an interesting question because there is to ask myself
0:01:20what one is the technical could Apple even do that and second is the premier
0:01:25that would actually want to do that technically speaking I think Apple could
0:01:32do that surely there are there is software running iPhone that has access
0:01:38to the serial number information like Apple software even if you know third
0:01:41party apps on Apple's iOS get that information but they would have to build
0:01:48that into the OS really periodically added phones home and says either any
0:01:52relevant recalls are updates for this thing so no privacy aspects on this does
0:01:59Apple know that phone serial number
0:02:02XYZ belongs to an individual person I suppose they do because you've got the
0:02:08but I can't find my phone type thing but
0:02:11not sure where does that information so my answer at this feedback is they
0:02:16probably could and I would imagine the reason they don't is that they don't
0:02:23have the code that built-in is probably a low priority since these things happen
0:02:26that often and building a tennis like that title mechanism seems like it has
0:02:33the potential to be difficult to implement in a way that doesn't expose
0:02:37more information about a person to to Apple generally doesn't want to know
0:02:43about you as possible and potentially to other things are going to exploit
0:02:49whatever hold a spokesman the thing that periodically poled some location and
0:02:54upload information about your phone to its thoughts on that
0:02:59well you know i i think they they almost certainly could do this kind of thing if
0:03:04they wanted to and there there is one thing to consider also that the the
0:03:10quote recall or whatever it is the service extension whatever whatever it
0:03:14is they say very the same multiple times on that page that it only applies to
0:03:21iPhones explosives with this year number range that are in working order and so
0:03:26that probably gives them the ability to say well this phone that you're handing
0:03:30us all beat up and we you know we're not going to repair this this horribly beat
0:03:34up some with broken screen the dental over it for this camera thing because
0:03:38you know you've obviously if you this phone it is in good working order so
0:03:40that gives them like it gives them an out and there's no way for them to know
0:03:44on the server side like you know what kind of condition your phone as in
0:03:47physically really and so they probably don't want to send this to two people
0:03:53who devices are ineligible
0:03:54secondly if they're doing it to save money
0:03:58well at least at least a save you know a lot of requests from people who won't be
0:04:04satisfied but also they might be doing it to save money they might actually say
0:04:08you know this is really only affecting some of these phones and it says it
0:04:14makes it kind of clear in the in the language of the page that in one place
0:04:19where it states the condition of the first times dates the conditions it says
0:04:22phones that are in good working order
0:04:24and are examining this problem and in the second time it doesn't mention
0:04:28whether the phone has to be exhibit in the problem to have the repair done but
0:04:33it looks like they're trying not to replace or not the service phones that
0:04:39don't necessarily need quote need it and that could be there could be something
0:04:44like well I'm willing to service the ones who scammers are actually showing
0:04:47this problem according to a genius who looks at it or also it could mean you
0:04:51know we don't really good or service this problem for people who notice the
0:04:56problem and who care about the problem so it it probably is to some degree
0:05:00trying to minimize the number of people who even know about this problem and you
0:05:04go in to get things fixed and who go in and no load the Apple stores and the
0:05:08repairs repair centers with even more people and money that I was just meant
0:05:14to say that it seems like it would be a tough thing to figure out how let's
0:05:19assume they do they want to notify everyone how do you do that exactly by
0:05:23that I mean do you just send one massive notification to everyone that has
0:05:27affected device that's probably unwise because the Apple stores gonna have a
0:05:31pretty crummy day the next few days do you do it in batches will then the
0:05:35internet eventually finds out that they're doing this in batches and then
0:05:38they go at the Internet is enraged because this iPhone issue you didn't
0:05:42even know you had isn't getting fixed the schedule you would like it to be
0:05:45fixed in so how does that even work it just seems like a nightmare there's
0:05:51there's no good reason for Apple to do this do agree with orca but i just i
0:05:58don't think that there's anything in it for Apple in all it does is make things
0:06:02kind of more challenging for them it doesn't seem like an urgent issue as the
0:06:06chat room pointed out they don't need of the phones polling or if they just do a
0:06:09push notification and you know the serial number like when you do find my
0:06:12phone and lost all your devices they know your devices to have this
0:06:16information available to them and the US would need the poll they would just need
0:06:19to get push notification
0:06:21so things but it's not like batteries may explode you need to know right now
0:06:26now now it's more like the kind of thing that they will probably email you and as
0:06:30long as you used in Apple I D they have at least one email you know with your
0:06:35phone set up an apple a day they have one email address in this type of thing
0:06:38they could send out the emails and I don't think it matters to be sent all
0:06:41the emails I want certain batches because people aren't immediately going
0:06:44to run out again it's not urgent people whom you are gonna run out to the store
0:06:47you read their email whenever they redid and look at the Lego people forget the
0:06:53day read other people may have been a reminder in their calendar I think the
0:06:58there won't be a big Russian Apple stores no matter how you notify about it
0:07:01and it just doesn't seem that urgent like for this particular thing and the
0:07:06money-saving aspect that has something to but yet a lot of those a lot of these
0:07:10type of things things don't happen very often that are an essential expected
0:07:14part of the project experience tend to be done and not just an apple but every
0:07:19company tend to be done in sort of ways that seem inefficient or not high-tech
0:07:23because it's not you know that's the stuff that happens all the time you know
0:07:27software updates for example like expected parts of the life cycle of a
0:07:31product are integrated on an improved in made more streamlined and made efficient
0:07:35and so on and so forth in these things that happen rarely are supposed to
0:07:39happen rarely it's like about what to slap something together even something
0:07:42like that I'm excusing this but you can think about the whole pushing the u2
0:07:45album on everyone's things that's not a thing that happens all the time like
0:07:49them as far as I know the only time they ever did that it's not as if there is an
0:07:52established system for doing this in a way that has been proven to be efficient
0:07:58in 99 they just like to them and just said well you know they couldn't
0:08:04probably couldn't give everyone promo codes because their promo code system
0:08:07probably couldn't handle of this is just too many people and they don't want to
0:08:10let you know that I went to be what's the best way we can give everyone US for
0:08:13free we can make it free for a day on the store
0:08:16well then people might not redeem it and like part of it was a really wanted this
0:08:20music back to be on people's things without them having to do anything like
0:08:22that
0:08:23over the top down instead of often but the way they did it was just so clumsy
0:08:28and ham-fisted and least part of that has to be part of this wrong-headed
0:08:32thinking the other part is that something you do everyday so you just
0:08:35gotta say with the mechanisms and tools and services we have at our disposal
0:08:39what can we do to make this happen considering they do have push
0:08:44notification stating that was one of things I could have done but then
0:08:47someone in the meeting raised their hands say yeah but is this really so
0:08:51important and then like the bean counter guy like marcus says that make more
0:08:55people come in to get the service but they need to do not so going to web
0:09:00forum in entering your serial number starts looks pretty good in that regard
0:09:04to make a web form can we do that I think so that the guy who knows where
0:09:08that web address in here but also you know this isn't a problem that is so
0:09:12urgent that it will cause like data loss or a physical hazardous batteries and
0:09:17exploding you know you're like somebody seeing how the iMac 3 terabyte drive
0:09:23recall cuz he was seeking her made those three terabyte drives like they said
0:09:28they all failed everywhere it was just an accident that that whole drive
0:09:31generation was terrible but said that the email people for that that makes
0:09:36sense that this is your data that you could be losing if the strike dies in
0:09:40this case like your photos might be blurry on your six-plus if it was made
0:09:44in this range by the way mine was I had my test expressly qualifies but I you
0:09:49know that's not going to qualify if they actually check to have it passed I think
0:09:53about it later but nothing is some some people might say well how do you say to
0:09:58push notification and and you know will they worry about annoying people and the
0:10:03answer there is they don't worry about that at all because they already spam us
0:10:08with push notifications for stupid things i three words for that one flash
0:10:11flood warning in an office I don't know that we are here in the office as a
0:10:17flash flood warning it sounds like the world is coming to an end
0:10:20everyone's I terrible klaxon sound so I feel like I mean it's not them and you
0:10:27can opt out of that you could turn that stuff off you know when few people
0:10:30chatter saying that the legal requirement they had to do that anyway
0:10:32that's separate know what I'm talking about is the BS push medications from
0:10:37the tips a band from the App Store and from the news app in iOS nine you know
0:10:42I've complained for a long time now that there has always been a rule ever since
0:10:47push notifications were launched there was always a rule in the App Store
0:10:50review rules that said you could I use push notifications for marketing or
0:10:54promotion of any kind and not only has that rule never been enforced ever like
0:11:01there's been span put in a vacation to push notification that are for marketing
0:11:05or promotion only those have existed since the beginning of time and very
0:11:11popular apps have always use them like it isn't like it's only a few bad actors
0:11:15who do it it's common practice everybody does it now and Apple has never seemed
0:11:21to care even though they have this rule they've never seem to even bother trying
0:11:26to enforce it and now Apple has started breaking that rule themselves and that
0:11:31like they all seem to care or you know obviously you know Apple is not one
0:11:35person so certain teams obviously don't seem to care but like to me that's
0:11:40extremely inappropriate lake and and maybe it's just saying that this is one
0:11:44of those things that I care alot more about than everybody else in the world
0:11:47and so maybe I'm just nuts but to me a spam notification is never okay and it's
0:11:55especially not OK from the platform vendor for identification that I was
0:12:00adopted into by default that is not cool at all I couldn't agree more and the
0:12:06tips I think I'd had it on my phone because it got pushed onto my phone
0:12:10during a software update or wherever I think I saw one of the tips come through
0:12:17on notification center and the very next thing I did was grab my phone and turn
0:12:21off all notifications from tips and bury it in the most deep folder in the middle
0:12:25of nowhere I'm
0:12:26home screens because I don't want anything to do with it I don't want it I
0:12:30don't I don't want to be opted into it I wish I was I wish it was opt in buying
0:12:36me a rather than opting by them just no go away don't do it and it again it
0:12:41doesn't encourage an app developer to be a good citizen of the platform if the
0:12:49platform vendors do the same BS crap that that that I would want to do as a
0:12:53developer hypothetically it's just gross
0:12:56this is kind of a larger theme that I'm that I keep keep seeing cracks in the
0:13:00foundation here and I'm really fearing for this you know john mentioned the u2
0:13:05album song is awesome sounds of innocence but ever since and there's
0:13:11things like that
0:13:13now these know certain apps showing us notifications for Apple and it it kind
0:13:18of seems like Apple AAPL is a big company they are the man like talking
0:13:26about a rebellion against IBM rebellions big company rolling into the man Apple
0:13:30is the man now and Apple is big corporate America now and most of the
0:13:36time we're able to ignore that most of the time that is not a problem in the
0:13:40way that big you know self-interested only and and sometimes tasteless
0:13:46companies in the way they usually act the way they usually annoy people like
0:13:51us usually Apple does not display those qualities but there have been a few
0:13:56instances recently where it seems like they're slipping it seems like and I
0:14:02don't know this is like a Steve vs Tim thing probably not but it seems like
0:14:08Apple is starting to behave more like the giant corporation that they have
0:14:13been for quite some time and starting to to negatively affect some of the things
0:14:17they do it in ways that annoy people like us who who in the past have you
0:14:22know Apple's never been perfect but it sure seems like they're they're making
0:14:26little bad judgment calls more frequently now than they used to
0:14:31in ways like spanning US and in promoting their own stuff and be a
0:14:35promoting Apple music so heavily and iTunes and music app that they've just
0:14:39ruin the entire news
0:14:40and they ruined iTunes to a great degree stuff like that like they're at their
0:14:44making bad calls and and they're they're doing things that are only
0:14:49self-interested rather than being something of it also benefit us in
0:14:54nineteen years though this morning of iTunes much different than all the other
0:15:00times they were not have you talked about iTunes Pashos I think of all those
0:15:03things that when I can kind of defenders the tips that because it is going to be
0:15:07a tip that kinda has to be opted out no one is going to make the whole point is
0:15:12you need to people who need these tips the most have no idea how dropped into
0:15:15it so which which OS and the thing where you can turn off notifications from the
0:15:19notification is that I was nine you can do that
0:15:23yeah there was one of the things that I like from the notification you get sad I
0:15:29want to see the beginnings of a market that's part of the house was like you
0:15:33get the notification maybe I'm business remembering chat room in a second if I'm
0:15:36wrong but if not able to do this you get the notification and even when you know
0:15:40how to do it I gotta go back to Settings notifications and then scroll until I
0:15:46find that thing is no search maybe there is a certain that page is another idea
0:15:50that they had to search the settings on iOS yes yes they did it almost works
0:15:53alright people in general same thing of Android but anyway yeah that's a feature
0:16:00that's that's that would be handy but for tips that has to be opted out
0:16:04because the whole plan that helps the people who need the most need and it can
0:16:07be annoying even those tips can be annoying as one of the tips one of the
0:16:11first tipped his second tip should be don't wanna see any more of these tips
0:16:16here's how you turn them off saying that I'm correct you can turn them off the
0:16:20notification anyway I haven't installed iOS 902 case you haven't noticed they
0:16:26all the other stuff I don't know it's hard for me to discern trends here the
0:16:30only friend I can maybe pick out is that when Jobs was still around
0:16:37you could see much more limited nothing they're going to try to get into a lot
0:16:43of stuff that's true they were there are a limited and
0:16:46you could you could kind of I don't know this is actually cheaper you kind of get
0:16:50a feel for like things that you would imagine Steve Jobs and find distasteful
0:16:55didn't get out the door is that because he was micro-managing you're on the air
0:16:58that because everyone around him thought to themselves I saw this is Steve I'll
0:17:01tell me it's crappy and we shouldn't put out or whatever whereas the Tim Cook's
0:17:04Apple is trying much more things and overall I think that's a benefit because
0:17:09we just get so many things that we wanted for so long that you know just
0:17:13what I was a tough but on the other side you have like that we never talked about
0:17:17that promotional site about what's so amazing about the iPhone and how a
0:17:20perder is have great ideas stuff like that that would never come out of you
0:17:26know if they had passed under under the jobs that would you know that's not the
0:17:31kind of BS that he has different brand of BS like that and that is not the
0:17:36correct so I'm mostly I don't think I think it's still a net positive I'm
0:17:42going to deal with the bumps in the road ever do you know a lot of these things
0:17:46is revealing itself or the ability to turn off the notification from the
0:17:50notification must be today should have and you can say the problem is they keep
0:17:55sending too many notifications or the tips out noise me or even stuff like i
0:18:00cant delete these apps on the phone I should be able to hide them or whatever
0:18:02those are exactly the type of things that Tim Cook's Apple seems more
0:18:06receptive to hearing the cries about him get to them eventually obviously the
0:18:10ability to actually hired the stocks app or whatever it's probably really low on
0:18:14the list of thing of longstanding complaints about iOS in terms of impact
0:18:18us like what's put them in a folder etc else does but I think they will
0:18:21eventually get to it
0:18:22unlike the three Tim Cook Apple you like you know they're never gonna let me hold
0:18:27stocks that put in a folder no big deal I don't know it it seems like you know
0:18:33what you said is correct that it does seem like you know we've we have now a
0:18:37different brand of BS you know and Steve's vs whether it was better align
0:18:42with us whether we're just used to it the biggest liked steve is a character
0:18:46and kind of role then who knows what is a person of a good like where we're
0:18:50pretending it steve is BS all was Apple's BS when steve was the CEO
0:18:55everything was like a mapped onto him it's like well I don't know what
0:18:58actually went on inside the company's all pretend this is Steve Jobs idea like
0:19:00that was just the simple the the external application of the black box
0:19:04that was apple and same thing we're doing that Tim Cook sapelo whatever we
0:19:07have no real way of knowing what's going on internally over doing is trying to
0:19:11you know he just does not want a person but we are remodeling it pretend it's a
0:19:16person what is the personality that person what kind of person is this Apple
0:19:19you know well and you know it is so many big corporations behave like the out of
0:19:27touch men in their fifties who run them and it shows and Apple has been run by
0:19:34men in their fifties for a while now but it it really didn't behave that way
0:19:39didn't seem that way they didn't seem as out of touch as that kind of group
0:19:45usually does to people like us but for some reason now I'm not feeling that
0:19:51confident that a morir it's just it does seem like that has changed without Steve
0:19:55or at least in the same time that that Steve unfortunately passed away in the
0:20:00leadership change and everything it now seems more like what it is which is a
0:20:07group of old guys traded trying to figure out what school and trying to
0:20:11like yell at us now to tell us what's cool just hang America soon you'll be
0:20:15able to Guyana cities and then everything will match up again I mean
0:20:19I'm already not cool and I'm only 34 3333 I never got to get every time I'm
0:20:26already not cool I know that but i would i would not be running something
0:20:30borrowed have to decide important things that other people should think are cool
0:20:34cool is this just about taste that's all it always comes down to is like what
0:20:38what seems a tasteful appropriate thing to do was too flashy what's too
0:20:43flamboyant what's to obviously BS like make your BS of these be clever what is
0:20:47actually inspiring versus what is cloying like it's it's difficult to do
0:20:51is it'll do as an individual that alone trying to hurt a giant multi-billion
0:20:55dollar organization to present a face to the world that most people who look on
0:21:00it
0:21:00decide that it is tasteful the things they do it at all so it is but like
0:21:05like the things that we've seen from Apple in in recent time that have seemed
0:21:10distasteful to us things like you know the span of innocence things like that
0:21:14weird presentations they keep giving and the weird Eddy Cue segment and dental
0:21:19music segment like all the stuff you know it's this is this seems like
0:21:23they're they're letting a lot of things out that you know Steve's brand of BS
0:21:30and the thing and the flaws Steve will it out and be things like the iPod hi-fi
0:21:34that's totally gonna be an awesome deal and people are going to buy it you know
0:21:38that was the kind of BS late in the game was figuring out to see me like he does
0:21:45because he didn't like it won't even be introducing it he didn't like the
0:21:49Motorola ROKR me could tell right kind of seemed like you really like the iPod
0:21:52iPod and I guess it was ok the rest of the world did not like every day since
0:21:59know that but everyone else like sometimes people like sometimes Steve
0:22:04thought something would only seem to think something would be a great success
0:22:09and that people would have no problem with its price or limitations and then
0:22:14the market said very clearly otherwise that was Steve's I think that that was
0:22:18Steve's biggest or most common law in judgment whereas now
0:22:23current Apple we have other flaws in judgment that are very different to me a
0:22:27little more worrisome and maybe it's no big deal you know maybe maybe I'm
0:22:31overthinking it that's very possible but it is offset by the other the other
0:22:35changes in judgment of like is it a good idea traps to have extension cord to
0:22:40have third party brands setting aside to really bug implementation of the new
0:22:45Apple says yes the old apple says no I like the new Apple decision better I
0:22:48think that outweighs all the stuff I think you're right and and that's why I
0:22:52like overall I think Apple is in a better position now than they were say
0:22:57five years ago you know overall things are better not you know not everything
0:23:01is better but overall I think you're right the things are better it's still
0:23:05it seems like you know we we all thought that after Steve Apple you know we were
0:23:11all telling ourselves back then you know Apple will be ok
0:23:15maybe it maybe it won't change very much but I think we're seeing is is how it
0:23:21how it has changed and it isn't offered a better and there are a lot of things
0:23:24that are better but obviously like you can't have such an incredibly strong
0:23:28personality who had tons of power
0:23:32you can't have that kind of person at the top of the company who then leaves
0:23:37and nothing changes you know it was never going to be nothing will change
0:23:43and it was never good at the end it was never realistic to think that the things
0:23:48that we loved about Apple would all survive this transition some of them
0:23:52happened and I think that's a little set yeah we really need to talk about
0:23:57something that's awesome but very very quickly I just wanted to apologize for
0:24:00the people who've been riding me saying oh my god now I see a crescent on my
0:24:03iPhone what have you done sorry guys but welcome to the club
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0:26:20rate I wanted to quickly talk about something I've been thinking about on
0:26:27and off all day today and we've been talking a lot about forced touch and
0:26:31kind of 10 tangentially the haptic engine and how it would be used on the
0:26:36iPhone and had occurred to me and I don't recall us talking about this what
0:26:42if you opt-in kind of like iPad multitasking gestures you know that the
0:26:46five finger pinch in the four finger swipes what if it was opt-in and so it
0:26:53all the confusion that we were worried about from normal users that had never
0:26:58experienced for such before don't really know what it's all about what if it was
0:27:01optional like would that be a reasonable solution to problems
0:27:05sure what it would do necessarily but maybe it's an optional long press but
0:27:11like you like you were saying before Marco on a prior episode but but the key
0:27:15is that its opt-in and by default it doesn't do anything
0:27:17marketed that way though they're gonna be touching the screen you can be pretty
0:27:21darn sure that they're gonna it's gonna be one of the very high up both point
0:27:26features of the iPhone success wherever they end up calling it and if its opt-in
0:27:31people are going to get it and say I seventy yet with a distin- how do I do
0:27:35that thing where you got to go to settings
0:27:37can't possibly be out there just for marketing reasons that is assuming the
0:27:41even tell you that it's there if they don't mention it decided this is not
0:27:45going to be a marketing feature that would seem weird to me like why build
0:27:49the sensors in and not like you live there aren't that many marketing
0:27:53features for the S revision phones gonna look the same as the other one they may
0:27:57be changed the materials in this week this week that but it's not like this
0:28:01one has to know touch I D that's the type of feature that you get when the
0:28:07whole phone changes shape in the two you're kidding right now so any kind of
0:28:13feature you can say you know that you added an extra vision here though they
0:28:17really want to tout its like a cannot imagine it being
0:28:21unless they really really really couldn't figure out what the hell to do
0:28:24with force touch on the phone and then like we get there what to do with that
0:28:28we should just leave it in kind of experimental mode for now I guess that
0:28:32makes sense but the other thing I was thinking about is what if what if they
0:28:39don't do force touch but still have the haptic engines so what if it's not about
0:28:47pushing quote-unquote through the display it's not about having different
0:28:51interaction paradigms from user to phone but it's about having a different
0:28:57interaction paradigm phone to user so maybe it's like the rumble pack was to
0:29:04us back when we were playing nintendo games when you win the Rumble Pak was
0:29:08new
0:29:09it's sort of like that where it's a different it's a different response
0:29:12mechanism but maybe there isn't a force touch on the phone but there to have a
0:29:18good vibration motors already in there as a couple people tweeting about this
0:29:21like they make it so you can feel in your robe over certain things I don't
0:29:24think they're going to put a different physical thing that Shakespeare phone
0:29:28inside the thought I think it's gonna be one thing that Shakespeare phone maybe
0:29:31that will be changed slightly to give different kinds of feedback Minnesota's
0:29:34can be one thing it makes your phone vibrate when you put it on silent the
0:29:37thing that you know that's going to do any kind of haptic feedback that doesn't
0:29:42require any you know anything more than just a plain old touch entered the force
0:29:46sensor the whole point of that is to give a more accurate
0:29:50reading of how hard you're pressing on the screen more I hear that see how much
0:29:53your fingers switches which i think is not the best way to do that so if
0:29:57they're going to build that then they're gonna put a little sensors in there has
0:30:02to be a combination of hard depressing and now we can press you back by the
0:30:08little whatever little thing they have in the phone and yeah I have to see what
0:30:15they decide to do with its type of thing we have to be careful it's because you
0:30:20usually don't get a chance to totally take a mulligan on a major input device
0:30:27or whatever like double clicking whether that was a smart move or not really
0:30:33difficult you can't go like three years into the Mac and say you know I double
0:30:36click doesn't mean open anymore we changed our mind that there's no more
0:30:39double click or double-click mean something entirely different in the
0:30:42world of touch maybe get a little bit chance that you mentioned that the
0:30:45gestures to drop then an iPad but those are her like someone thought that was a
0:30:48good idea that's another one that kind of leaked out someone thought that was a
0:30:51good idea but then other people's immediately realized if you try to play
0:30:53fruit ninja with a do end up going back to the home screen all the time so their
0:30:56solution was not let's not ship until we figure out how to make it work this
0:31:00election was alright by the fault give it turned on if they want and it's a
0:31:04shame because that gesture is so addictive on the iPad but you really
0:31:08can't play for dinner so I don't know what to do that yeah I don't know I mean
0:31:13I'm thinking you know the story here is probably very boring it is probably not
0:31:19anything super clever it is probably for stocks is for stock shit advertised as
0:31:26for stocks it is some kind of you know tertiary secondary click that will bring
0:31:32up some kind of secondary tertiary function and there will be some kind of
0:31:37API Texas this gesture I think that we're thinking I really think this is
0:31:43just it's gonna be a feature added because they can't you know somebody at
0:31:48Apple clearly really loves for stocks like somebody who who matters a lot
0:31:52clearly loves and maybe it's multiple matter like what you see on the water
0:31:58had to do they needed more more input methods like it on the watch it makes
0:32:02sense I don't you know I i've obviously a lot I don't think it makes a lot of
0:32:07sense in the trackpad and ask if it makes sense in just the MacBook one
0:32:12track pad for fitness reasons okay although is it really like I've never
0:32:18been to a bit like I was thinking my dog today that's where do all my thinking is
0:32:22it really
0:32:23dinner to have the whole linear actuator everything down there that I don't know
0:32:28anyway doesn't matter you know putting it in all of the laptops
0:32:33i think is there was maybe premature or or unwarranted but so far most of the
0:32:39feedback from the youngsters as bill is like Marco is an old man and we all of
0:32:44this better
0:32:45yeah I guess this is my old man phase now being in my life that I think it is
0:32:49not really because I think several years from now you'll be ok with it and you go
0:32:53back and he's one of the ones that abundant moved in with your bro continue
0:32:56like all about the whole thing tells down it's very possible I I said before
0:33:01like I don't hate the four stocks trackpad I just think it's worse than
0:33:04the current than the old one and I'm not going to not buy a new laptop ever again
0:33:09to avoided but I'm certainly no I don't think I'm gonna love it when I have to
0:33:13make changes just circle back to bang on the keyboard because I think that is a
0:33:16more safe
0:33:18readout for you to build your argument right well doesn't matter anyway so you
0:33:25know the the addition to four for stocks obviously they're putting across all
0:33:28product line I think this is maybe yet another thing that that kinda ties and
0:33:32earlier which is like I think that this is really gonna be lost on so many
0:33:39people I mean it's already you know I i've already think they've blown the
0:33:43execution on the back side where you know making it a tertiary click is weird
0:33:49making designing it in such a way that the Cliq feedback that you get feels
0:33:53noticeably worse than the old button I think was a poor choice if they had a
0:33:58choice they might not have who knows and on the phone if everything we're hearing
0:34:03from various you know tips sources is correct that it is just like a
0:34:09right-click and its
0:34:10you know another another level of interaction of you gotta go around like
0:34:14shoving everything on the screen to see what I can do it that's the kind of
0:34:18sucks like I it'll it'll be useful for games and for it like there's a
0:34:23discussion on this on this week will into that both but because he was a
0:34:28parade last week and it was very good and they're putting into this can be
0:34:32useful for games of having like a different way for the first person to
0:34:36have the test your strength game to try to get people to punch through their
0:34:39phone screens you know press harder all you know you haven't done yet keep going
0:34:43yeah it's probably really easy to max out the sensor so I guess you can't do
0:34:46that but that'd be fun
0:34:47well also if Apple enforces thereafter rules anymore to the big if there is a
0:34:55rule against apps that encourage people to damage their devices I think it'll be
0:35:00pretty easy to max out the four sensors so I don't think you may like that
0:35:03anyway I'll people try but yes so you know I think it's going to be a really
0:35:09kind of boring a new feature that's not gonna set the world on fire in the same
0:35:15way that the Mac for stocks trackpads have been I still think I give it the
0:35:19easy to do even if they can't figure out a use for it yet I think there is a
0:35:24potential use for it and as long as they don't go hog wild about the making like
0:35:28every screen that's part of the OS has every control has something you've been
0:35:32forced touching can't be like mystery meat navigation can be like playing
0:35:36mystery after be like this do I double tap this to a long press it do it for us
0:35:40touch it it's really really need to figure out what they're going to do with
0:35:45it in their apps anyway and then the third parties can dig their own graves
0:35:48they want to have mark wants to have my go you don't know you have to go into
0:35:52settings and don't tap the switch but forced touches like no one's gonna do
0:35:57that and they do that their own stupid fault so they make the ABI open enough
0:36:01that you can do that now it's like oh you got a long process control you can
0:36:03just tap it would mean long president long dresses but you know they can do
0:36:07the Apple needs to set the example by just using it and I think I did OK on
0:36:12the bike like fast forward and rewind to the video thing or QuickTime player that
0:36:17is a very specific very focused use of force touch
0:36:20that is not like we're defining a new language you and every app going to a
0:36:24Finder window and press down it will do man on the window your console slide to
0:36:28the left to the right they didn't do that they're so I think it's just you
0:36:32know finding that one or two places where you can use it actually is kinda
0:36:35cool and not looking at other options saying we're going to use force touch
0:36:39like if you find yourself doing that you're probably doing it wrong
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0:39:00ok so by the time most people have heard this news is going to be a week or two
0:39:06old but a little while ago there was a really kind of ugly article posted by
0:39:15the New York Times about Amazon and there for what it's like to work their
0:39:20their company culture and their hiring practices and it made a pretty big
0:39:24splash and the shorter version the article was it's terrible to work there
0:39:28but I don't know why I only had a chance to read about the first half of it and
0:39:33even after having read that much I thought my goodness I would never ever
0:39:36want to work at this place because among many other things I like to see my
0:39:40family once every sixteen years I don't know John how would you summarize this
0:39:45and what did I leave out cuz I know that there was a lot this article it was long
0:39:50so the badness about Amazon is basically that they expect you to dedicate your
0:39:55mind body and soul to the company to work very long hours to put your job
0:40:00before your family and your health and the rest of your life to just really you
0:40:05know sort of in full throttle mode all the time for the company and if you
0:40:11can't do that if you're not super Spartan not able to do a million things
0:40:15at once and have lots of work keep nine-year then you're not you know that
0:40:18the ideas like that Amazon is demanding place to work they want don't want the
0:40:22smartest people who get the most done and that the best hardest workers and
0:40:27they're very you know try to make it could they were probably like a culture
0:40:31of excellence where they do the thing where they rank everybody and push out
0:40:35the low performers to make room for supposedly the new people
0:40:39and the New York Times story was just our story after story of how that you
0:40:45know what people think I was work-life balance is just so far out of kilter at
0:40:49Amazon all sorts of stories about people being asked to do things that are just
0:40:53you know beyond the pale for the purposes of the work being told
0:40:56explicitly that work has to be more important than their family working very
0:41:00long hours and just all sorts of stuff like that and you know the flip side of
0:41:05it i think thats New York Times story was the according to someone some of
0:41:09your time to be there was the story that got them the highest number of comments
0:41:13ever in a New York Times dogs everyone who either currently works on Amazon the
0:41:17Amazon want to say I you know here's my story working on either I have my own
0:41:21our stories or I worked there and it wasn't like that at all or I worked
0:41:26there in my group was good but I know other groups that we're like this
0:41:29lots of people and that is the new york times but everywhere on the web are
0:41:33throwing in their own stories about amazon has a big company a lot of people
0:41:38that work there tonight think the most interesting part of this well I guess if
0:41:44you didn't know this is what it was like an Amazon and by the way this is what
0:41:48it's like in a lot of companies also particularly startups although it's a
0:41:52little bit more appropriate for it to be that way and starts because the startup
0:41:55it's like lots of hard work but also potentially lots of water as Amazon so
0:41:59big that at this point you could work yourself to death and it's not like
0:42:02you're going to be multi millionaire of your stock options in a few years
0:42:06whereas in a startup you have a vanishingly small chance of doing that
0:42:10but at least it's a chance that's often overstated I know but it like it's made
0:42:1690 hoping Amazon just operating as if it's like oh you're gonna get all these
0:42:19options this doctrine Bubba blah but that's like if you're gonna work
0:42:23yourself to death for companies make it be your startup like the start but you
0:42:27founded that you have equity in that you're going to get rich off of this
0:42:31exceeds your gonna be around if it fails that i think is the only sort of
0:42:35reasonable way and even that is probably not a good idea because almost all
0:42:39startups fail and so you know but if you want to give it to run that is the thing
0:42:43to do your company your thing I'm not gonna be your company you're probably
0:42:47not gonna get richer
0:42:48stock probably don't work is there any way some people are working hard some
0:42:51people like that some people thrive in that some people don't have to buy me
0:42:54some people do want to dedicate themselves to their job i'm suppose two
0:42:57sides to this story here depending on how you look at it but the most
0:43:01interesting part was the reaction you know that's going to damage control
0:43:05because they're going to have a difficulty recruiting is now everyone
0:43:07thinks Amazon is a terrible sweatshop which by the way it is probably an
0:43:11especially much more so for a blue-collar workers rather the white
0:43:14collar people are writing their color their website or whatever and no one
0:43:17seems to care about that but anyway putting that aside how do you pronounce
0:43:22his last name pesos pesos I can never get a right anyway Jeff Bezos CEO Amazon
0:43:28put out the statement and the little things I pulled from it is these two
0:43:33little passengers I don't recognize this Amazon the Amazon as described the new
0:43:37york times this article doesn't describe the Amazon I know and I love that aspect
0:43:42of this thing that he's writing because all he's doing is restating the problem
0:43:46I am totally sure that he doesn't recognize that Amazon begins his
0:43:50experience at Amazon for the CEO is not like this at all he works himself to
0:43:55death but he's the CEO he stands to gain the most from it and he's working like
0:43:59crazy because he's a workaholic and that's what he likes to do his work life
0:44:02balance is exactly the way he wants it like this is what he made himself of
0:44:06course he doesn't recognize Amazon you don't recognize them because you're not
0:44:09a lowly Amazon employee being told the work yourself to death for no pay off
0:44:14your multi-millionaire who is a workaholic like a on muscular Steve Jobs
0:44:18made other people because that's what's in them and they're driven to do that
0:44:21and I'm sure there are employees who are like that as well then I can get there
0:44:25again some people just thrive in that type of atmosphere but the reason this
0:44:29works as a New York Times story is most people do not thrive in that atmosphere
0:44:32into most people it reads like a horror story and so you read and go oh my gosh
0:44:36I can't believe what it's like now I now if I ever had an idea that was gonna
0:44:40cram as I'm definitely not going to work there now because I read this article in
0:44:43things that are happening that's like my nightmare of the worst possible job I
0:44:47could ever have
0:44:47most people are gonna have that attitude and that's why I would try to fight the
0:44:51basis I want to sit down and said look I don't know a lot about a lot of people
0:44:55but I think I know a little bit but this point about
0:44:58professional programmers and if ever there was an employ a less inclined to
0:45:04be into the sort of gun ho just work work work stay in the office at late
0:45:12hours grinding grinding grinding it is the programmer for a giant fortune 500
0:45:18company because programming i think is one of those type of things where bomber
0:45:23bomber herbicide will put a link in that it has one of those things where you
0:45:29can't like the harder you work the more you grind the worst you program like you
0:45:34have to have time that rest to think about things you have to walk the dog
0:45:37like Marco said you have to take a shower like that's where you actually
0:45:40solve all your program powers in the shower while you're walking the dog
0:45:43while you're sleeping soon as you wake up in the morning it's in your head if
0:45:47you stay late one night and try to work on this thing work work work work work
0:45:50like five extra hours there's no there's no point specifically for programming
0:45:56and if they're not that everyone the higher as a programmer but if you're
0:45:59going to say we only want you to work here if you thrive in this type of
0:46:02atmosphere you're gonna be missing out on a lot of really really great programs
0:46:07because in my experience great programmers tend to be less receptive to
0:46:13that type of work environment so it's not it's not conducive to good
0:46:16programming for example sales people who wanted the world's best sales person I
0:46:20bet they do thrive in this type of my own because it sells all dogs go go go
0:46:24right and that you know they're go-getters they can get the job done
0:46:27they're gonna put in long hours to do the business travel all the stuff that's
0:46:31not how programming work so I don't know that all the positions that they're
0:46:33filling and marketing and then other things that are outside engineering and
0:46:37again setting aside the blue collar workers that are being exploited in the
0:46:40factories packing back in just 100 degree heat in a building with air
0:46:43conditioning work for Amazon thoughtfully provides ambulances outside
0:46:46so when the workers dropped the head are drop dead but collapse on the line there
0:46:51with outside to the ambulance that that is a whole separate issue and that is
0:46:55terrible so really just put this in perspective we're talking about is like
0:46:58highly-paid programmers being asked not to see their kids not people being asked
0:47:02to working under degree heat and a factory and collapsing from the heat and
0:47:06being taken to company-sponsored am going
0:47:08but anyway I think it's just a bad business this is not the way you should
0:47:13run a company of Amazon size is not the way you should manage organization that
0:47:18is focused on engineering and they would say back to me
0:47:22our company's incredibly successful look at the amazing things that he done where
0:47:26a giant retailer we do all these things like aspirin easy to do you think your
0:47:30greatest services in the reason we're like that is because we have decided to
0:47:33and I would say no you do that because despite that attitude than ever to
0:47:37making recreated creativity and can learn that the sides problems then we go
0:47:40back and forth in the end because he owned the company and cast but we played
0:47:46out that little thing you have many podcasts that's right have multiple
0:47:50broadcast thank you Jeff
0:47:52undersell yourself right now were those my thoughts coming out of this and so I
0:47:58think it's good for stories like this to be in the media to sort of raise
0:48:01awareness of this Marcos ever been in a job like this but I don't think I've
0:48:05ever been a job like that but I've been I've been Jason two jobs like this I've
0:48:09known people in jobs like as I've seen parts of organizations that I've been in
0:48:13that are like this and it really is my worst nightmare like I would never want
0:48:16a job like this and I know a lot of people who who wouldn't they could
0:48:22possibly happen in this thing about hiring engineers and programmers they
0:48:25can get work elsewhere so if you don't have a stock that is going to have the
0:48:31potential to skyrocket in the near future
0:48:33can be difficult to track those people if your gonna work to make this my first
0:48:37job at a school was working for a company that actually meet slot machines
0:48:44for Native American casinos in Oklahoma and the company at the time was gonna
0:48:51maybe 10 or 15 developers and they were all they were all acts EA folks like
0:48:58well there they were part of a company that was bought by EA EA ruined it is he
0:49:02is off to do and so these word I generally there were no women their time
0:49:09that we're developers so they're all guys they were typically in their late
0:49:12thirties early forties generally speaking completely single
0:49:15and generally speaking didn't really have a whole lot else to do other than
0:49:21work in not that they weren't great great great guys and I don't mean that
0:49:24disparagingly is the fact the matter was they didn't have spouses or children in
0:49:30many of them didn't seem to have a whole lot of hobbies other than work and so
0:49:34they worked constantly just constantly and here was I came in for Ashley's
0:49:40right out of school and I didn't want to work constantly I didn't want to work
0:49:46non-stop in my left the company mostly because I had been asked to do this
0:49:53really kind of impossible project for trade show and I worked I i dont member
0:49:59now but i wanna say was 11 or 12 hours a day for a month or two
0:50:02including most weekend days trying to get this thing to work and eventually
0:50:06did get it to work and then the trade show came and they were preparing
0:50:12everything they were going to show and then just cited you know what we're not
0:50:15gonna show that after all and I was furious I was beyond furious because
0:50:21here was I busted my butt for all that time and it was like well we don't need
0:50:25it after I think so and I don't know maybe that makes me a millennia old in
0:50:30the disparaging way maybe that makes me not a team player but I just thought it
0:50:34was ridiculous that here was I couldn't do any of the things I wanted to do for
0:50:38a month and then they just up and decided oh yeah we don't need that after
0:50:42all and I left the company you should not get a job in the games industry
0:50:45totally absolutely right you're absolutely right but I know any better
0:50:50the time yeah that's part part of that I think again speaking to programming
0:50:55which is the profession that I think we're almost million with even Marco
0:50:59large companies is that that experience of having like a miniature version of
0:51:05the game developers call crunch time where something needs a ship and people
0:51:11everyone puts in long hours and it's all hands on deck I think every program goes
0:51:15through that even if only on their own projects for like a fake artificial
0:51:19deadlines they made for themselves but certainly in other companies where you
0:51:22have a software product release or trade show or something and everyone is
0:51:25killing themselves to to make a deadline that experience I think its formative
0:51:32for programmers because it teaches you like it makes you it's difficult you
0:51:37know it's probably the most grueling physical thing that programmers have to
0:51:41do because programming is not a grueling physical job you know you're not
0:51:44cracking rocks with a hammer all day you're pressing keys on the keyboard and
0:51:47sitting in a chair right but it does take a toll on you in terms of lack of
0:51:50sleep or even just sitting in a chair all day or not eating well and you know
0:51:54nevermind senior family whatever they don't have that you're just you know a
0:51:58single person right out of college what I think you learn from that is you
0:52:03reflect on it after the experience which Oakley and whatever trade show whatever
0:52:06you say what is it about the piece of software that we were creating together
0:52:13that made it so difficult to do do the things we want to do like how you know
0:52:20it's disturbing cliche that you see all the posters work smarter not harder but
0:52:24in programming like they've actually something behind that which is if you
0:52:31had done you're all your work differently how would it have made your
0:52:34later work easier if you you know and that's that's basically programming it's
0:52:38like you write the program then you realize how you should have written in
0:52:40the next time if you're lucky enough to write a similar program you right in the
0:52:43better way and then you realize how you shouldn't have any differently in the
0:52:46next time you realize you have made it easy to change along these axes but did
0:52:51not realize that this other axis was the one that is going to change the long as
0:52:54it is really hard to change in that way like that's all programming is doing
0:52:57something and realizing how you could have done it differently to make the
0:53:00future changes that you have to make for whatever reason easier to make it and so
0:53:04crunch time and that you know that hellish experience of just having to sit
0:53:09there and just grind yourself into dust to try to get work done
0:53:12teaches you how to do your job better a little bit but I think it also teaches
0:53:16you
0:53:17how incredibly inefficient it is to bang your head against that wall that how if
0:53:20you add nearly got home at a reasonable hour had a full night's sleep becoming
0:53:23the next morning you to solve these problems faster and better I think
0:53:26that's another thing you learned during crunch and that gets back to the this
0:53:29article that I think I don't even know is related to the Amazon thing I
0:53:32remember a song about these links in here but some dust in moscow muscovites
0:53:36talking about how the 40 hour work week is not a you know he says it's not a
0:53:43combat great compromise between capitalism in hedonism it's actually a
0:53:48carefully considered outcome according from a thing of profit maximizing
0:53:52research by Henry Ford and early 20th century basically if you if you during
0:53:56this experiment to say hey if we with work ppl eighties our 80 hours a week
0:54:00versus 10 hours of agrees 20 like there is a maximum where you get the most
0:54:04productivity out of people who worked on my crazy they get tired they get sloppy
0:54:07they get angry they do worse work they're less productive and of course if
0:54:10you have them work one hour week your output is trying to find out that forty
0:54:15hours as some magic numbers or whatever but you're trying to find that that the
0:54:18maximum where you get the most productivity out of people on a
0:54:22sustained basis if you drive people like dogs maybe you'll get extra productivity
0:54:27out of them but you pay for it later and if you want to have a sustained business
0:54:31like maybe that's what you doin starts like there will be no sustained business
0:54:33if these two weeks leading up to this trade show so you got yourself a deal to
0:54:37trade show again I would say make sure you kill yourself for potential payoff
0:54:40that's going to benefit you not somebody else because it's not worth killing
0:54:44yourself or somebody else but you want to find a way to get the most out of
0:54:51people on a sustained basis and usually that ends up being a work week in a work
0:54:59environment especially for programming it does not look scary from the outside
0:55:03but you work reasonable hours that you get a good nights that you get exercise
0:55:06the right that is the only way in any human endeavor to have sustained
0:55:09productivity out of people and programmers are not like people breaking
0:55:13rocks with hammers in that if you grind one of them into dust and they leave the
0:55:19company with RSI have a nervous breakdown
0:55:21down or do something else terrible it's not so easy to just find another one is
0:55:26not just like a warm body in a cherry just need balance for your giant barge
0:55:29right it's supposedly a highly skilled job and so if you're grinding up those
0:55:34workers and spitting them out
0:55:36that's even worse than if you're doing the same thing it's worse economically
0:55:40if not morally speaking and doing the same thing for a position where people
0:55:44get disgruntled need you can easily find new applicants for it
0:55:46well so that's something that I i think you I i think that actually is part of
0:55:54the case that the industry does have so many like you know the right thing to do
0:56:00for our perspective because the three of us are all pretty experienced
0:56:05programmers who are approaching middle age who would like to think are wise and
0:56:11care about spending time with their families right and so we are the ones
0:56:15saying you know to do things with higher quality you should really have wiser
0:56:21older programmers who are more experienced who will therefore work way
0:56:25more efficiently than young crappy programmers who were being worked 80
0:56:30hours a week but there are so many of those young programmers willing to go
0:56:35with companies like Amazon which by the way I mean this story to me was nothing
0:56:39new because I've heard horror stories about how horrible working for Amazon is
0:56:43four years I don't I don't think this is a surprise to anybody who's ever paid
0:56:47attention to Amazon and and people who work there but I think there's enough
0:56:52people willing to go into this business to go work for a big company or start
0:56:57there there's enough input of new new computer science graduates or new people
0:57:03who are who are teaching as a programmer who want a job all over the world
0:57:06there's enough of these people coming in it's kinda like the entertainment
0:57:09business where the the employers are able to abuse and and burn people out
0:57:16and they will do this because there is there still a huge supply you know the
0:57:20way they always complain and and make much noise about how there's a shortage
0:57:24of good programmers in this country is I think mostly BS I think it's totally
0:57:28true there is a shortage of good program
0:57:31like your analogy the entertainment history is exactly right but that's why
0:57:37the game that's why games development is so bad because everybody wants to be a
0:57:41game developer hey doesn't that sound fun and companies take advantage of that
0:57:44enthusiasm you know there's a million applicants for this thing because you
0:57:48get to be a game developer you get to make games isn't that awesome now the
0:57:51ground you into Dustin when you burn out there is another enthusiastic person
0:57:54games developer games are awesome of grandeur but Amazon is not an
0:57:59entertainment company Amazon I don't think has that kind of drugs and then
0:58:03you just left with the generic drug I want to be in the tech industry which is
0:58:07better than you know you know working in the mailroom at a foreign country
0:58:12company and certainly pays better but it's nothing too big to the games
0:58:16industry like you said the entertainment history I want to be in TV I want to be
0:58:19in movies like that is a perfect opportunity to grind up enthusiastic
0:58:23naive people that I just think the supply of programmers is it's more
0:58:27difficult to find it a good program is now maybe emily has the right strategy
0:58:31we would rather grind into dust tons of programmers and not even use them the
0:58:37most efficiently and the ones that survive will learn really hard lessons
0:58:41and become amazing you know efficient people in the ones that don't oh well
0:58:45I'll even get a job someplace else but was just scooped up a new set of new
0:58:48graduates may be that an aggregate gives them better throughput than trying to
0:58:53find programmers and give them a nice environment worker I don't know because
0:58:58Google seems to me
0:58:59takes the other attitude where they try to give you know they try not to work
0:59:03people to death they try to give people you know room to figure out what it is
0:59:08they're going to do and it's like a nice work environment and Apple kinda seems
0:59:11in the middle where they don't tell you what they're doing but from my
0:59:13understanding of the people I work super duper hard I worry that Apple's grinding
0:59:17them up gently tell because I think the screens are modeled by whatever bro a
0:59:23bit and an apple that the reasonable thing to do it is because they're more
0:59:26like entertainment i dont is working to take ensure I work for Apple iMac
0:59:30iPhones
0:59:30well i i think that used to be the case for a long time but I think now they're
0:59:36having a really big problem attracting and retaining good talent and has lots
0:59:41of reasons for this and one of them i think is this problem
0:59:44of they do work people really hard for me from what we've heard it sounds like
0:59:48they really do work people harder than what I would consider healthy and they
0:59:54consider that ok from from level all the way to the top and so this is the kind
1:00:00of thing like once workaholic sets into a company's culture it never leaves that
1:00:06is something that is so incredibly difficult or impossible to ever rollback
1:00:10it only ever gets its like being tough on crime you know that politicians can
1:00:15ever be less tough-on-crime
1:00:16it's the same thing like there's there's so many factors that just encourage it
1:00:21to build upon itself and to increase the workaholic I'm rather than ever
1:00:26Tony back and it's so that in Apple's case you know it's pretty clear from
1:00:32anecdotes from the executives all the way down to the employees that this is
1:00:37your company works and I don't think that's ever going to go away and that is
1:00:42that is one of the problems that is going to make it hard for Apple to
1:00:45attract and retain good talent over time and you know and you mentioned a few
1:00:50times so far John you mentioned that startups are kind of exempt from this
1:00:54and i dont I don't necessarily think that's true now not exempt but it's a
1:00:59better fit like that like to get a start about the ground is it's one of those
1:01:04activities that you gonna have to work it out to death but it's not you know
1:01:07it's not sustain doesn't type of thing where it's like this is not sustainable
1:01:10we can run a company this way if we really want to have sustained
1:01:13productivity needs to do expedient to start of its like sustained productivity
1:01:16of what we're gonna be out of business in two weeks if we don't do this thing
1:01:21you get this feature ready for the treasure which again is why most arms
1:01:23fell because you try really hard to do this thing it's you know it's a young
1:01:26man's game it's very short period of time there's a clear thing we're gonna
1:01:30try to do this thing and the time happen that you have exit strategies like it is
1:01:35not like I'm going to work in his company for thirty years and this is for
1:01:39thirty years I'm gonna act as a time in the first six months of a start like
1:01:43that's why I think you have to match the sort of culture and work ethic and
1:01:47amount of effort to the potential reward and to the expected time horizon so I'm
1:01:52not saying it's like good and starts kissing you know starts grind grind
1:01:55people up and spit them out as well but that's what started so far it is totally
1:01:59inappropriate for a company the size of Amazon Inc
1:02:02well but you have to nip that in the bud early because it builds over time
1:02:06because like startups typically take on the the the work culture of their
1:02:13founders like that that is just happen starts off as the founders as they grow
1:02:17the company still works the way the founders set it in motion to work either
1:02:21intentionally or not and so I've been fortunate that that my jobs have you
1:02:27know I've had crunch time here and there but it's never been the kind of thing
1:02:32that I hear about from from other people like it from someone is really horrible
1:02:36again companies or companies again it's never been that bad and and part of that
1:02:40is because I've always stood up for myself and I like end and I've always
1:02:45had I've always been at companies early enough to to have the ability to push
1:02:51back a little bit and identify myself a little bit and you know it doesn't
1:02:54always work but most of the time I was it will do it and this is the kind of
1:02:58thing that you can't just say well you know this one time we gotta push really
1:03:03hard but then then we're going to we're gonna be healthy and then we'll hire
1:03:07more help or whatever early because in reality the the later time over gonna
1:03:12we're gonna do this temporarily but then we're going to fix it that's how I'm
1:03:15never comes because after you finish with this horrible death race there's
1:03:20another one that comes up right afterwards but it does come I get things
1:03:24in the natural life cycle company is the founders they get the start about the
1:03:27ground have to be workaholics otherwise you don't succeed because that's the
1:03:30nature of the beast there but then I think most companies settle into sort of
1:03:34that happy middle aged where the company cars out places for people who just want
1:03:39to show up and you know punch the clock and do a boring job and not be too
1:03:44stressed about it or whatever that's what happens when companies have bigger
1:03:48turnout than most companies get this phenomenon of gigantic companies that
1:03:52are still run quote-unquote like startups where there
1:03:55r you know hungry and working their place it at this I think a fairly modern
1:04:00phenomenon I guess you know sweatshops is the oldest slavery in sweatshops the
1:04:05oldest form of like we're just gonna grab people up but in the sort of in our
1:04:09lifetimes the trajectory was if your startup at all you gotta do it quickly
1:04:14became a serious business where everything was much more relaxed and
1:04:19that's why small companies came major lunch in the late nineties to thousands
1:04:23of disruption and all that stuff and now I think the new normal but you're
1:04:28reacting to is like always happens a stage disruptive startup started by
1:04:33somewhere hot become successful because those guys work things out of death and
1:04:37that workaholic retains control the company and other phenomenon that is
1:04:40much more common in other news to you
1:04:41retains control of the company and pushes that culture down and all the
1:04:45employees and never let go because they're paranoid that they're gonna get
1:04:49their lunch eaten by the next little disruptive startup how close we had been
1:04:53that it started as a small everything he got fat and happy and then went from
1:04:58baton happy with a giant you know Apple advanced research thing called Apple
1:05:03about technology ATG art technology Group they were the point where they had
1:05:08people doing like you know architecture astronaut stuff making up these grand
1:05:14plans like open docx and Technology Group ATG tips to make any pie in the
1:05:20sky things that people who had jobs that is going to be like an Apple iPhone just
1:05:23hang around and think grand ideas and maybe noodle on a product or something
1:05:28that might become a products and then Steve Jobs came back and said we can't
1:05:32afford that we're going out of business
1:05:33cut down to the bone and turned it back into a workaholic culture so that is a
1:05:37weird you know Apple has a weird history anyway that is weird phenomena but I
1:05:40think it's what you react to Marco is the the Amazon even like Iran must
1:05:47PayPal test that kind of model where you never you never let the company get out
1:05:53of start-up phase because that's how you get his rep didn't just no matter how
1:05:56big you get even if you're as big as a man
1:05:58Apple the way you survive is by continuing to act as if you're in a
1:06:03startup but the but it's not in your not anymore and appropriate environment 22
1:06:08grand people up like that because you can have a company with 30,000 employees
1:06:12all comes down to become multi-millionaires by the next quarter
1:06:15if you just have these numbers that's not going to happen right that time in
1:06:18the company's life is past its weird that when Apple had the second phase
1:06:21they made a whole bunch of millionaires out of stock options or whatever but
1:06:24again
1:06:24ok started company 270 before now a successful almost go out of business but
1:06:30not quite you know that's a tough lineup also you could almost go out of business
1:06:34and become the biggest company in the world you make a whole bunch of new
1:06:36millionaires and Apple did those people probably don't regret working in their
1:06:41fingers to the bone during that phase but that i think is an aberration as a
1:06:44good people working to the bone Amazon are not going to get the same pay offer
1:06:49their effort of investment ran i mean and this is actually I mean most
1:06:54startups that that come out of you know our industry you have to be like one of
1:07:00the first I don't know five people who work there to really see like a massive
1:07:05payoff in all likelihood you know I've had so many friends and so many
1:07:08companies so many startups I know very few of them actually had a meaningful
1:07:13payout from the stock options like it it just doesn't like the numbers are so far
1:07:18against it not even close
1:07:21like that shit like chances are you probably won't make anything for your
1:07:25stock options and if you do make something from them
1:07:28you you might make you know maybe an extra in the tens of thousands of
1:07:33dollars which is nice but not necessarily worth working ourselves to
1:07:37build for four years it's it's it doesn't usually work out the way they
1:07:42promise and but it is like entertainment business like they know the people who
1:07:46start service to people who funds are people who devised our lives they all
1:07:50know that the previous promises there in the end they they sell people on this
1:07:55promise and people come in thinking man to get stock options I'm gonna make a
1:07:59ton of money and the fact is it doesn't usually work out that way unless you
1:08:04unless you are one of the founders you know if you're one of the founders
1:08:08alone enough stock to make it work pretty well
1:08:10but if you come in as employee number forty or whatever you know the chances
1:08:15are you're not gonna make a ton of money on that but you're still gonna be this
1:08:19environment where it is insane workaholic awesome and everyone is
1:08:24pressuring you to dedicate your life to the company in every waking hour and by
1:08:29the way I don't think I've ever seen a startup fail because it didn't execute
1:08:33quickly enough
1:08:35have you ever seen that there are a lot of them sell for that reason but you
1:08:40know I don't know what that means like he should have gone faster
1:08:43well could you have done that this gets back to us talking about with like is it
1:08:47actually more productive past a certain point is that you can do crunch and you
1:08:52can for a certain period of time but you know you can go longer younger or
1:08:57whatever let's not make any more now just here but at a certain point you get
1:09:03massively diminishing returns and then negative returns here hoping to start up
1:09:09a short enough that you don't reach that point but for big companies on a
1:09:13sustained basis like you know what you're getting is like this started
1:09:18failed to start was going to fail anyway as I can tell you the 17 reason to start
1:09:21was gonna fail even if they had executed so he's easy to find out the reasons why
1:09:27a startup could fail but started as the one type of business where sometimes it
1:09:31really does matter if you'd actually been in that trade show is that the
1:09:34company had indeed could have really changed you know the history of your
1:09:37company or if this demo two important investor had gone better you would have
1:09:42got their round of funding instead you didn't like that's the life of the start
1:09:45of it always is balancing on a razor's edge of something I think that is a real
1:09:50thing happening then
1:09:51it's just that no one really knows you know a lot of a serendipity lot of it as
1:09:56a lot of it is right place right time lot of things you can't control but as
1:10:01far as I've been able to determine the successful strategy starts it's really
1:10:04really difficult to to succeed as a start up with this super laid back
1:10:09attitude unless you start off with basically unlimited funds are really
1:10:14long runway and a lot of money and forever but for the most part starting
1:10:18from zero you really do have to work hard for a short period of time and i
1:10:22think that the all-star phenomenon you brought the is lots of small companies
1:10:27trying bunch of ideas and finding out assess possible with a working I guess
1:10:31the whole thing and so try to disembark ok that's right now the startup try to
1:10:35stand america traded the pivot where you're trying to pretend you're the same
1:10:38company really started to same time as you don't want to find out three years
1:10:44later that your idea doesn't work you want to find out ASAP because you can't
1:10:47cruncher three years yeah you know the thing to me is in my personal opinion
1:10:52the best approach is whatever your job maybe just work really really hard
1:10:59coming out of school work in in early on your career work really hard to
1:11:04establish yourself and get yourself to the position that you have me you are
1:11:08making enough money that you are comfortable that could mean $30,000 it
1:11:13could be $100,000 it could be $300,000 agree three million dollars what however
1:11:18you define comfortable get too comfortable and once you're there then
1:11:24you really shouldn't have to do a death march ever again and if you very rarely
1:11:30I worked very hard for a very long to me a very long time given how old I am and
1:11:36I'm now at a company that I rarely have to do a death march I could probably
1:11:42work harder I could probably make more money I could probably even find a
1:11:46different job where I could work harder still and make more money still but in
1:11:50the end of the day we are comfortable in I am able to pretty reliably put in
1:11:54about 45 hours a week and then come home to my family and to me anyway that's
1:11:59more important I work so that I i can live I do not live to work and also
1:12:08you're working so that you can crunch at home now because I i think i also truly
1:12:12best analogy for the best but the sort of second front like it you just had a
1:12:16school and you're really you wanna get your career establishing working hard
1:12:19you job whatever it is make sure you're not working too hard make sure you note
1:12:22be exploited then you have a kid and you realize how you can crunch time at home
1:12:25to its called the infant twins are even more like that's the type of thing where
1:12:32you feel again that you know your child is basically your startup times the
1:12:38million right you are willing to crunch that the whole point like if you decide
1:12:41to have children and this is what you gonna do you like it's super hard it's
1:12:44going to be a lot of work in this crunch timing kids and it's not when the kid is
1:12:47fifteen years although depending on the kid or whatever but yet so hard and you
1:12:51will put in long hours and you will be you know at the end of the rope Europe
1:12:56and going out of your mind but that's what you're signing up for when you have
1:13:00a startup or have a kid or whatever but I think for most people that is a choice
1:13:04they're making me feel like it is well worth it to do for their kids not so
1:13:08much more that to do it for Amazon the doesn't care about them and will never
1:13:12visit them on their old so in summary the best startup is a child Baltimore
1:13:17start-up dependent and also I just like to point out to that end John III still
1:13:24disagree on a lot of this I don't I don't agree with the assumption in our
1:13:29industry that crunch time is required for a startup success because I have
1:13:35seen many kind of examples to startups that have succeeded that do very well
1:13:39that don't do crazy crunch time burnout a workaholic well let's put it this way
1:13:46it is it is a common characteristic of stars that succeed whether it's
1:13:49necessary and I guess it's not really necessary just so happened that it's
1:13:53just a correlation
1:13:54causation fact those ones are succeeding despite the crunch I'm going to believe
1:13:57that but you have to say it's highly correlated like successful startups they
1:14:02all have stories about trucks right she would you say it's sufficient but not
1:14:06necessary I don't get it seems pretty darn strong like i I totally think it's
1:14:12possible to see without it because again I think even more important than how
1:14:15much you crunch is right idea right place right time right talents like
1:14:19things some things you can control some things you can't control those are much
1:14:23more important than how hard you work because the comment the common theme
1:14:27that I think an all-star upstairs including the ones that fail is a bunch
1:14:30of people working really hard it was not correlated with success is just like if
1:14:34you're in a startup this is the way they're done I think what you're saying
1:14:36is like if all the startups got like a big started conventional said let's all
1:14:40agree it all starts in the entire world we're not gonna drive ourselves into the
1:14:44ground with the habits of the same ratio I think they probably exactly the same
1:14:48ratio successes and who the successes are makeshift around a little bit but
1:14:53not in any significant way and it just it's just like it's like a race I give
1:14:58everyone has been the race decided they were going to walk instead of run the
1:15:01race would be slower but everyone else also they'll run you mean by can say I
1:15:06don't think it's necessary to run to have a race if if we all just walked and
1:15:10work on and we just said you can't have both feet off the ground at the same
1:15:13time the results of the race would be the same but it's human nature you you
1:15:17just wanna run even if you know you're tired faster I don't know this is
1:15:21terrible and I just ate doesn't match what I seen like I've seen like to me
1:15:27that the big crunch time is kind of like people who always talk about how busy
1:15:32and stressed out they are it's like that it's like a voluntary take on of stress
1:15:38and it is you it is almost always self-imposed and optional but you see
1:15:46everyone else running don't you see everyone else running and you feel like
1:15:49you have to run to and again if you feel like well if they were on a I wouldn't
1:15:52be running but they are running so I feel like I have to run the question is
1:15:56would you actually be like if you could run the experiment if you get a diverse
1:16:01of people or something and like you said you guys aren't allowed to question you
1:16:04guys are just like the productivity thing
1:16:06wouldn't they be more productive if they had a good night's sleep but I think
1:16:09they went for young company there are events and deadlines it was a
1:16:15self-imposed not that that are significant enough they can make or
1:16:18break the company is not true for a larger company and so by crunching you
1:16:23can temporarily increase your productivity so you are it's like you
1:16:27know juicing are taking steroids or whatever you are temporarily increasing
1:16:30your productivity knowing full well maybe not knowing what you're gonna find
1:16:33out that your productivity is going to fall off a cliff after a short period
1:16:36time because the most important thing right now is who is ready in time for
1:16:40the street Joe you know what
1:16:42honestly I've never seen that I i've never seen a company that had to rush to
1:16:48make a trade show or investor meeting or anything where that was actually really
1:16:53gonna be a decision like usually either you have traction are you don't either
1:16:57your product is you know is rooted in a good idea is to end his get its fine
1:17:01audience or it isn't and usually it doesn't come down to one day 1 deadline
1:17:07one meeting one presentation
1:17:08not just one goal in life that you use your career temblor as an example like
1:17:12you it may not have been to the crisis of conscience but there was a time early
1:17:16on when you were worried about servers going down and you would get paged in
1:17:21the middle of the night or whatever that's basically that's a work-life
1:17:23balance that you would never accept now but had you not been there to fix some
1:17:28icicle problem in the middle of the night or whatever and Tumblr got the
1:17:31reputation for the side that was always down that could really affected you know
1:17:35tumblr might not have taken office has lots of other sites that were similar to
1:17:38Tumblr and what you know that type of thing of like oh it's you know it has
1:17:43bugs are it's always down or doesn't work right at the sign up like now but
1:17:46you're killing yourself to do it but certainly you are working really hard
1:17:49during that time because there was only a few people and it's not like you have
1:17:52this giant staff of people to watch all the services it was you write that is
1:17:56what i'm talking about I'm not talking about like that you didn't sleep for
1:17:59seven days straight to make some changes every month is different but during that
1:18:02time when a small group of people trying to keep this site is growing incredibly
1:18:07fast up and running so that we think you could take advantage of the traction
1:18:10than you had that was an important thing to do and if you had not done that in
1:18:14said you know what I'm going to ignore that
1:18:17page and I'm only gonna work from nine to five and I'll bring the series back
1:18:20up in the morning that would have materially affected the prospects of
1:18:23success and probably would have got you boot up the company that's like this
1:18:29like look at a couple of us here you can't just say officer in the morning
1:18:33because your work-life balance is important you have to do it and you felt
1:18:37responsible for doing and you want to do it and you were interested in doing and
1:18:39you did it and Tumblr successful but don't you think there's a connection
1:18:42between that there is a connection but I think it's a relatively loose one lake
1:18:48was taking off whether you know whether ahead the side up or not and if I took
1:18:53an hour to fix the site or five minutes to fix the site didn't really matter but
1:18:59you couldn't come at you can come in the next morning and do it you can say you
1:19:02know what I look at that tomorrow
1:19:03sometimes we sometimes probably wouldn't even know that sometimes are monitoring
1:19:06system failed us and we weren't alerted the problems and things were down for
1:19:10hours and it was fine like I mean like I was put this example back then like
1:19:15Flickr was down for like a whole four day weekend one time you know 2008 ish a
1:19:21week later everyone forgot yeah I mean 2020 is a good example to where they
1:19:26were down but I think that after they crossed the hump like you know me you
1:19:29don't know what's on the other side of the Haunted certain inevitability that
1:19:33takes on it's just like when you're on the the near side of the hopping out the
1:19:37far side of them you're never gonna get over you never going to become the thing
1:19:40that that people talk about being down for four days and I see you in the
1:19:44beginning
1:19:45have some minimum level of dealing with growth in a way that lets you just start
1:19:49you know taking off like I mean again just think about how you work it was it
1:19:54all just a mistake that you were putting in those long hours and worrying about
1:19:57things and if you would just known if you had no more than you are just like
1:20:01just chill don't worry about it don't work such long hours in the company
1:20:04would have been equally successful where you just running to see so everyone else
1:20:07running you're saying that you should have just been working from nine to five
1:20:10and in the end you're sort of hard work and dedication to making sure things
1:20:15were up all the time was foolish foolish expenditure of energy issues just like
1:20:18if you had known then you know now you would just working nine-to-five
1:20:21competent and the fact that the success of the company would have been equal
1:20:25you could be right but the bombing as you ran because our warehouse running
1:20:29and I think that will continue to happen most of the time I did just work you
1:20:33know 92508 whatever it might be like 10 27 every 10 to six but like most of the
1:20:38time that's all I did I was not programming at home for tumblr ever like
1:20:42that hardly it happen maybe twice like ever adequately like it like that hardly
1:20:48ever happened that was not at all normal most of the for the most part I
1:20:52maintained a very healthy work-life balance with their islands you were
1:20:56sleeping next to your phone or yes but that was a lot of that on his
1:21:00self-imposed harassed and and that was mostly because we took too long to hire
1:21:06a system in which was partly my fault cuz I kept saying you know what I still
1:21:10got this you know i mean it was certainly probably my fault but if you
1:21:13didn't have that drive that self-imposed stress don't you think that someone beat
1:21:19David or someone else would eventually get to the point of you know what you
1:21:23you either need to start sleeping with your phone ringing to hire someone to
1:21:26sleep with their phone like if you didn't have that if you weren't as as
1:21:32proud of your work is you are then I think it would have caused problems it's
1:21:38possible I mean it's hard to know what would have been different but we we a
1:21:44tumblr in those early days when news me just mean David we did not have a
1:21:48culture of work holla some really David pushed himself a lot harder than I push
1:21:52myself but I wasn't really penalized for that for the most part you know he he
1:21:57will be thinking about a conflict that says David you know he he would be
1:22:01thinking about anything constantly like it whatever is whatever his work is that
1:22:04the rest of his life will be thinking I constantly just the kind of person but
1:22:07but I am you know I try to have a more separated balance between home and work
1:22:14in my side projects around let your family versus my job or whatever so I
1:22:19think your skill may be calibrated strangely because the amount of the
1:22:22amount of time and effort you put into your work and now is probably still
1:22:26higher than most people who were in those fat and happy jobs not even close
1:22:31maybe you haven't spent enough time in the Napa coming to see exactly how it
1:22:37works
1:22:38your site maybe you're not as big or as David but you have a higher than average
1:22:45drive to do things I mean I think Casey would agree on that
1:22:49like the amount of stuff that you have to do is ask that you actually do you
1:22:54you need to be doing stuff you need to have lots of things you're doing and you
1:22:58work hard at them harder than you actually need to work so I think your
1:23:00scale may be off a little bit I'm willing to believe that you don't work
1:23:03as hard as David because you know tumblers his thing and you're brought on
1:23:07right and so successful companies that are down about workaholics or whatever
1:23:14but in the grand scheme of things like that about your questions like does that
1:23:19mean you had to maybe maybe not like you can't run the experiment go back in time
1:23:25and say I'm going to do it again but I'm gonna do it differently that's awesome
1:23:29in earlier I'm going to just have a laid-back attitude and everything will
1:23:33be fine because really that's not what matters in the end what matters is we
1:23:37had the right idea we have the right design we have the right you know so
1:23:40many other things . our timing is right you know the choice to be made about
1:23:44what the product was made the right choices about product designs that there
1:23:48are so many things you know we made the right choices about when to take funding
1:23:51when not to take funding should be you know you guys like Mark Zuckerberg hold
1:23:56the tortured history of Facebook and how so many companies tried to acquire and
1:24:00how he said no doubt I could have been a terrible mistake and how hard to keep
1:24:03working hard working people under him and all that other stuff it's difficult
1:24:07to say but you know whether it's necessary or not it seems to be a
1:24:11characteristic of the startup that kind of in the same way that is
1:24:16characteristic of the games industry and the same way you could say that it's not
1:24:19necessary and it shouldn't be done but it is what we have now and to change it
1:24:24I think you have to change your startup's four games industry you have
1:24:28to change the incentives or maybe you have to have workers are unionized you
1:24:32have to have a backlash that happened a little while ago with DA you know
1:24:37to be a spouse's and all the employees getting complaining of getting ground up
1:24:41by the machine I think this New York Times story about Amazon is part of that
1:24:45phenomenon raising awareness about this issue among the pampered white-collar
1:24:49workers to the paper white-collar workers can have angry blog posts in a
1:24:54medium post about it citing Henry for the system working much this week is
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1:26:42you go in there you know you have to buy something and go to control panel
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1:26:55intentioned to me I've used many records even the ones seen well-intentioned
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1:27:35sponsoring our show once again one more bit on a work call them before I move on
1:27:39I want people to think that is all bad I'm thinking of you know the times that
1:27:44I have various places I worked where I have one particularly since I came home
1:27:49on a weekend programming problem
1:27:52database design programming combo problem that I have been working all
1:27:56week and had come up with a solution that kind of work but it wasn't
1:27:59satisfied with it and I think I woke up like Saturday morning and had a good
1:28:03idea for how to do it I think I've finally figured out and I just rewrote
1:28:07it all in a weekend why does that happen like part of work a whole is among the
1:28:12founders and among everybody else is that if you have a job that you love
1:28:15doing if you love programming you will find yourself thinking about your idle
1:28:19time again walking the dog taking a shower and sometimes you know this is
1:28:23all pretty kids if you you know if you don't have kids again if you don't have
1:28:27kids you realize how much free time you have so enjoyed you know youth is wasted
1:28:32on the young and free time is wasted on people with no kids that you actually
1:28:37have a lot of time even he married I was married at the time but there is enough
1:28:41time for you to acted to spend one weekend you know reasonable hour
1:28:46stopping for meals not staying up late or anything but just like you know this
1:28:49weekend I'm gonna do this thing I want to do it I guess I was invested in the
1:28:52company was a small issue company that have been
1:28:54by larger company but it was a bunch of people who are all friends who are
1:28:57working on a project in the thing that we really believed in a place that
1:29:02e-books and everything and you know it's something that we all bleed into was
1:29:05important to get this done and you know it wasn't any sort of external deadline
1:29:10there wasn't any reason this had to be done I had already done it work I just
1:29:13had a better idea for it and I enjoy programming so what about you know
1:29:15getting back to the market lifestyle when I did that weekend fun with a
1:29:20program programming is funded your programmer you like programming with a
1:29:23sucker for doing work on the weekend no but it really has to be on your own
1:29:29terms like so I think that's the difference where if you feel like you
1:29:34have to do this to keep your job or your being pressured to do it or like the
1:29:39culture at work is making you put in hours they don't want to work for you
1:29:42there's an expectation that you can do on the weekend no one had an expectation
1:29:45I was gonna rewrite this perfectly good working thing that I had rain during the
1:29:48week during a raid on a weekend because I had a better idea I wanted to do it
1:29:52and it was fun and so that's like the light side of this where if you're lucky
1:29:56enough to have a job that you enjoy and your quote unquote leisure time activity
1:30:00in the weekend is to do more programming even for your job that no one asked you
1:30:05to do because it will make you feel better and you come in the next week and
1:30:08be like line that can delete that crap that are at last week and replace it
1:30:10with this thing I rewrote entirely weekend so much cleaner and so much
1:30:14nicer so much more confidence in its bug free and it's easier to expand in these
1:30:19ways like that's a fun thing to do if your program again we should all be
1:30:22lucky enough to have the type of job that we actually enjoyed doing it so I
1:30:26guess probably rare cos how often do you work in a company that you feel that
1:30:30personally invested in how often do you want to do that the files I get from it
1:30:34these days is probably I mean I will find myself thinking about work problems
1:30:38during the weekend in the shower or drifting off to sleep I just usually
1:30:42save those ideas and I go back to the office on Monday to working on this like
1:30:45you know what they get enough my time
1:30:47when you have kids you can't like if you know it's it's a phase in life what
1:30:54would you rather be doing this because I can't imagine I guess the closest I was
1:30:57doing my reviews where I would carve out time to do reviews but even that if I
1:31:01like boy if I wasn't getting paid these areas I would stop doing them a long
1:31:05time ago right so there has to be a balance so anyway I just like make it
1:31:09seem like if you are working really hard to your job and bringing work home with
1:31:13you it's not always a bad sometimes you're choosing to do it and then it and
1:31:17then feels it feels better even though the same thing oh you are you basically
1:31:22doing unpaid work for the man on Iran time you're a sucker sometimes it's on a
1:31:30great there's definitely been times that I have not been able to get a work
1:31:32problem in my head and the best way to get out of my head is to get it out of
1:31:36my head and put it on paper so to speak and just do it by one minute that market
1:31:41sheets on the region of this is that when his boss lets and off the weekend
1:31:45sometimes he writes things and go just because it's fun
1:31:48his bosses also him but it's a different him it's like the working during the
1:31:51weekend and then it's like you know what I can write the song go so you can tell
1:31:56your boss later I wrote on go over the weekend it's awesome it's like it's nice
1:32:00that things like two or three sponsors this week
1:32:06harry's will be Parker and hover and we will see you next week
1:32:13now the show they didn't even need to be accidental
1:32:20accidental
1:32:24case
1:32:28it was a joke and a team article
1:33:11time has no meaning anyway until school then we can't do weekdays will certainly
1:33:22have me oh yeah I know I can't wait for that to begin to that we had a nice 14
1:33:26going by the way I i think that you you are probably overestimating how much I
1:33:31actually work
1:33:32timewise well nowadays I know but I'm just saying like you put it this way you
1:33:37put in more effort than I think I would put in your position on OKC can do you
1:33:43think he if you are Marcus position in life would you put in as much effort as
1:33:46he does on various projects that he does it would you slack off nicely don't know
1:33:51half of me wants to say I would slack off ten times more than the other half
1:33:55me says I think you might be overestimating how much time Marquez
1:33:58been sitting in front of the computer you guys you are both smart curious
1:34:03programmers you would get bored senseless if you weren't using your
1:34:07brain yeah I'm not saying you doing it like to be a magnanimous it's the same
1:34:12with all of us like here bring itself to do right and it's like that's what I
1:34:16workaholics deal to you must use exactly the same he's like look at why not do I
1:34:20don't do it under spaceships and electric cars my brain I have to do this
1:34:24it's not like it's barely even a choice like that is the type of person they are
1:34:28I just feel like the
1:34:30you have more I I have a higher capacity for doing nothing when you do it think
1:34:34many many years like the idea of you know you gonna go on a vacation and sit
1:34:41on the beach and do nothing I'm pretty darn good at this point I see I can't I
1:34:45can do I'm going to the beach next week I'm planning on bringing my laptop like
1:34:50the idea of going to the beach and doing nothing that sounds awful like I i would
1:34:55i would enjoy about maybe two days of that I let me I gotta tell me bring back
1:34:59on now
1:35:00yeah I have a much higher tolerance when I can go much longer I agree that you
1:35:04know I couldn't do it like you around greenwood et itself to I would be
1:35:08building a machine that of sand you know doing something right
1:35:12overall like that to some degree it's just a question of how tolerant you have
1:35:16for it and I feel like part of his being old R you like I did all the working
1:35:22hard stuff and I still do it and
1:35:24just like just a plain old boring 4000 programmer workweek believes me more
1:35:30like a mentally tired and like the beautiful thing about vacations is you
1:35:35can get away from all your responsibilities except keeping your
1:35:38children alive and being yourself ride and just have 20 minutes to sit on a
1:35:43beach and just like just look at the clouds go by right and that it that that
1:35:48recharges me so that I can go back to my regular life I don't think I could do it
1:35:54year round but as I get older
1:35:56my tolerance for doing nothing gets greater yeah I we've talked about the
1:36:03sunshine used to heat going to the beach which I only ever did a handful of times
1:36:07in my life and I as i have gotten slightly older and Martin are the same
1:36:12age I found that if you put some sort of tent-like object on the beach I'm not
1:36:18sitting in direct sunlight and put a good book in my hands I could do that
1:36:21easily week that being said when I was at the beach last month I definitely
1:36:28spent a few hours programming toward the end towards the end of the trip because
1:36:31I had an itch I decided I wanted scratch and couldn't get out of my head of a
1:36:36program that patient but I think part of that has to do with like it the
1:36:39environment is not good for you don't have your big monitor you could spread
1:36:43out last week in a phone booth now is a bunch of the people there there's a
1:36:48bunch of the people there and they want to go places and do things and kids
1:36:51running around
1:36:52yeah that's it no I mean like for me like a zombie doing something with my
1:36:55brain on vacation usually that's what I will write or do other things I want
1:37:02program necessarily or a program very little while to some some kind of
1:37:06satellite project like the website but usually that's when I will write blog
1:37:10posts best is when I'm when I'm away as it did then I want to use my brain but i
1:37:15dont wanna do any programming because I would prefer to do it on my big nice
1:37:19home computer
1:37:20see this is why I refused to learn how to trade coffee and why I'm kind of glad
1:37:25I don't have a 19 inch monitor at home
1:37:27well that's the trick him it I don't want to get to the point where I can't
1:37:34function until had a cup of coffee or or I
1:37:37get a headache or I get cranky or I just don't think that things be alright I
1:37:42don't want that so I'm glad that I don't like coffee in in additionally I'm glad
1:37:47that I'm used to a 15 inch laptop I mean I don't just broken that analogy to
1:37:55substances I can see something but you did there I believe there is no physical
1:38:00addiction component to our screens I'm pretty sure that is just merely a
1:38:05preference and again a convenience it's like you know like if I get too used to
1:38:11not being half immersed in water all day all want to be dry every time I go to
1:38:15see you doing it my point is I don't feel I feel only ever so slightly
1:38:25handcuffed by not having a second monitor when I'm developing where is you
1:38:30feel completely neutered if you don't have a 25 + inch display as you're
1:38:35developing it it's really convenient it's like you know it's convenient to
1:38:39have a room that that fits your bed with more than six inches around all sides in
1:38:43the walls cause then you can walk around the bed to get onto it
1:38:46yeah you know like I don't want to use that one I want to make sure my bedroom
1:38:50to just has one foot rallies around the bed and I'll show me through a bit of a
1:38:54good used to a bigger room and when I go someplace else they won't be used to
1:38:57like your knowledge is breaking down there any way that you should be leaning
1:39:01on the fact that I don't want to get I don't want to be tethered to a desk I
1:39:05want to do my computing like you said sitting on the couch or whatever those
1:39:09are the advantages he should be playing at laptops not saying that really want
1:39:12to force yourself to use it in its monetary loss can be barking up the
1:39:17wrong tree with explaining why I think there are reasons for these are not them
1:39:21are not speaking of Casey do you have have you thought anymore about your
1:39:26computer decision that we talked about last week have you thought anymore about
1:39:30that since then
1:39:31well to be fair that was all the three days ago as we preserve the illusion
1:39:35lose last week
1:39:37all right right right right it was easily week ago thought long and hard
1:39:42really I don't know the problem of come to is I think all three did potential
1:39:47machines a Mac Mini 5 K and a MacBook Pro all three and I don't know all three
1:39:55of them not four of them all three of them have definite advantages they
1:40:00really honestly do and I can't figure out which which criterion i think is the
1:40:07most important is it having something that can move is it having something
1:40:12beautiful to look at
1:40:13isn't having something that I can barely see that stuffed in the corner that I
1:40:17only really use remotely or very rarely go physically in my can't figure out
1:40:24what I want and I think people said this on Twitter via feedback but I think the
1:40:29really wanna do is which is what I had planned last week is I'm just sit around
1:40:34see what comes in in the fall with regard to MacBook Pro updates and
1:40:39potentially any other kind of update and just see if that sways me one what one
1:40:45way like let's say for the sake of discussion that I decided I really
1:40:49wanted a 12 inch Retina Mac and the MacBook one wasn't out yet
1:40:55well you know then fast bowler the mechanism all my problems are solved
1:40:59maybe they'll be some others things some feature that I really really love in the
1:41:03new MacBook Pro or maybe even a new Mac Mini or the new 5 k I'm a canal say you
1:41:08know what darn it that's it that's for me but now I just really don't know
1:41:14well first of all as look suppose a new Mac Mini comes it'll still suck like
1:41:20it'll still be a bad deal it's still going to be a thousand though it'll
1:41:24still be at least $1,000 for a good spec it'll still not have very good options
1:41:28you know it it like you know if you look at the ones that we have today it's you
1:41:34know you got you max out at two cores you can barely get an i7 you max out at
1:41:41one terabyte built-in on only then if you do the fusion like it's it's the
1:41:45options you can even speak out higher if you wanted to let you know get into the
1:41:49iFixit territory about putting your own crap in there
1:41:52and even that's becoming harder and harder it's the Mac Mini is is so and I
1:41:57say this having one here being very happy with it but for your purposes I
1:42:01think again only if it's going to be used as a server only does that make
1:42:05sense I think thinking about it more as the editor of thinking about it more I
1:42:12think what you should probably do is get a 15 X program that's the most likely
1:42:20outcome because like the big thing is the way you are in a league if you work
1:42:25the way I work we always work in the same place in the house where you know
1:42:28you were you don't take a laptop on the couch and do real work like if you're
1:42:31always working in your office upstairs then get a five k done but because it
1:42:38isn't how you live and you make a good point about wanting to be with Aaron at
1:42:41night while you're working that makes a lot of sense and that's something that
1:42:44your home office can't offer you so if that's the way you work at home or your
1:42:49computer at home then i thinkI 14 inches is probably the best option for that
1:42:54because you know for anyone else like for four other people for people who
1:42:59don't program for a living or for people who have lower needs that was probably
1:43:04too big you know then in that case I would say get the 13 inch MacBook Pro
1:43:09because for most people that is like the nice middle of the road cover everything
1:43:13kind of computer for you I'd say you know your needs are higher go for the 15
1:43:17and I i think the 15 inch MacBook Pro or 13 in general like the MacBook Pro /
1:43:25MacBook Air range is the default option for if you don't know what your needs
1:43:31will be just get one of those and in your case you don't know if you knew
1:43:38what you need would be in your needs to match my needs again get the five Cape
1:43:41done but because that's a big unknown for you still and and even if it was for
1:43:47me nail down and it probably wouldn't lineup much with my needs and I use mine
1:43:52or the way john is you know because you don't work the way we do and you don't
1:43:58know how you're gonna be working over the next four years I would say just
1:44:02wait for this guy like updates and then get the updated
1:44:05yeah it's most likely outcome the five k when we started the conversation last
1:44:10week I did not even entertain the five Ks an option but the more we talked
1:44:16about it the more I thought you know what if I if I dedicate myself to only
1:44:23being at my desk it really does make sense and if if I'm honest with you guys
1:44:28right now you know my current personal machine which admittedly has a platter
1:44:33hard drive which obviously changes whether or not it's usable as compared
1:44:37to my work laptop has a nasty but my personal machine today the wifi has been
1:44:44off for months and it's been connected via ethernet because I in since a 15
1:44:48inch MacBook Pro because I never move it because I always will just grab my work
1:44:53computer because whether I want to work or play it has everything I want on it
1:44:56and so if we can get over the separation of church and state if you will
1:45:02I'm going to have this laptop my work laptop pretty much regardless and even
1:45:08if I left this job and got a different job or even if I left this job and work
1:45:12for myself I would probably end up getting a laptop regardless of whether
1:45:17of whatever other computers I have at home so there is a compelling argument
1:45:22for the five k iMac as much as I've really don't want to entertain it
1:45:26because I think it's ridiculous and stupid piece of furniture ya gotta do
1:45:29what I did with my HDTV and cut out a piece of cardboard the size of my Mac
1:45:34and stick it where you gonna put it in your house and then he liked his block
1:45:38morning sunlight that I like when I'm eating my breakfast doesn't look likely
1:45:43to get visible from the street and looks weird like pieces of furniture that baby
1:45:49have to figure out if there's a place for them that won't mess with the era
1:45:52tanks wherever you pronounce it kool John one-year departing tomorrow morning
1:46:01you can see me all sorts of pictures that probably won't be super jealous
1:46:04that he will see it can you can you have your family take pictures of you and
1:46:09then send those to us all the best only person takes pictures of anything it so
1:46:14bad then we go on like vacations with the rest of my family and my parents and
1:46:18sister and brothers they just let me take pictures for everybody now there's
1:46:23a lot of pictures of my kids and my wife and pictures of me and a medium of
1:46:29pictures of everybody else