499: We Have All the Cushions

0:00:00(upbeat music)

0:00:02From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 499,

0:00:13for February 12th, 2024.

0:00:16This show is brought to you by Factor, Delete Me and Nom Nom.

0:00:20My name is Mike Hurley and I am joined by Jason Snow.

0:00:23Hi, Jason.

0:00:24- Hi, Mike Hurley.

0:00:25We're right on the precipice of 500 now.

0:00:26It's amazing. - Yep.

0:00:27- Amazing. - Yep.

0:00:28- Amazing.

0:00:29- It's gonna be incredible.

0:00:30- It'll be a big episode next week.

0:00:31Forget about this episode.

0:00:32No, no, this episode will be great too.

0:00:33- No, no, keep listening to this one.

0:00:34Also a big episode today,

0:00:35but it'll be another big episode.

0:00:37In fact, we're just like big episode after big episode

0:00:40this season, it feels like. - I know, we've gone.

0:00:42There was a, it was real quiet there for a while

0:00:44and then all of a sudden, bang, zoom.

0:00:46Everything's happening. - Hit off the hit.

0:00:47- Yep.

0:00:48- I have a snow talk question for you.

0:00:50It comes from me and I wanna know, Jason,

0:00:52did you enjoy the Super Bowl?

0:00:54- You know, the Super Bowl was extremely entertaining,

0:00:56except, you know, neither team played very well, honestly.

0:01:00Although I think part of that is that the other,

0:01:02I think part of that is that the other team was very good.

0:01:06I mean, this is, we have this tendency to focus on,

0:01:08like, the offenses didn't do a lot

0:01:10and therefore the teams were disappointing,

0:01:11but I think the truth is that the defense

0:01:13has played really well and they're both very good teams

0:01:16and so they struggled, but they also made mistakes.

0:01:19What I liked about the Super Bowl also was that in the end,

0:01:25either team could have won by making one more play.

0:01:28Literally, both teams, if they had lost,

0:01:30would have had a litany of things

0:01:32that if they had just done that one thing differently,

0:01:35they would have won the game.

0:01:36Unfortunately, it was a replay of the Super Bowl

0:01:39four years ago and my beloved 49ers lost, but it's fine.

0:01:44Patrick, I mean, again, Patrick Mahomes, they called him,

0:01:48I think Tony Roble called him the Michael Jordan of football.

0:01:50I mean, he is kind of that.

0:01:52He's young, he's talented,

0:01:53he's already won three Super Bowls.

0:01:55Anyway, a little bit of a bummer

0:01:56'cause my childhood team lost the Super Bowl,

0:01:58but as I was telling our pal Lex Friedman today,

0:02:02NFL football is probably my third, fourth favorite sport

0:02:07and so that eases the pain a little bit.

0:02:09- I assumed you supported the 49ers,

0:02:13but you never talk about them,

0:02:15so I wasn't sure if you did, actually.

0:02:17- No, and I'm somewhat ambivalent about the NFL.

0:02:20I used to be more of a 49ers fan.

0:02:23There were, yeah, yeah, but I mean,

0:02:26baseball obviously is number one

0:02:28and then between soccer and college football,

0:02:33the NFL is in there,

0:02:35but it's probably third or fourth in my heart.

0:02:38So that makes it a lot easier.

0:02:39When I was younger, actually when I was younger,

0:02:41it was great 'cause the 49ers won the Super Bowl five times.

0:02:44That was awesome and they haven't won since.

0:02:47But I'm older and I appreciated all those wins.

0:02:50So it's a lot easier to get over that.

0:02:52Once your team has won, especially in a formative age,

0:02:55it's a lot easier to accept loss after that

0:02:57because you've been there and you've seen it

0:02:59and you've had that life experience.

0:03:00And that's how I felt when the Giants won the World Series.

0:03:03In 2010, they had been my lifelong team

0:03:06and my favorite team and had never won.

0:03:09And that was a magical moment.

0:03:11And I would love them to do well going forward,

0:03:14just I would love the 49ers to do the same,

0:03:16but it's not the same once you've been on the mountain top.

0:03:19Like I feel, I was thinking how unique yesterday was

0:03:23in the sense that like there have been eight days in my life

0:03:26where my favorite football team is playing in the Super Bowl

0:03:28and that was one of them.

0:03:29And then I thought, wait a second,

0:03:31a very old Detroit Lions fan

0:03:34and a very old Cleveland Browns fan

0:03:36have never had that experience

0:03:38'cause they've never been in the Super Bowl at all.

0:03:39So I should, you know what, I got it pretty good.

0:03:42And it was a tight, taut, stressful game.

0:03:48And I made some, I heated up some bagel dogs,

0:03:53like little hot dogs inside bagel wrappers

0:03:55and we ate those.

0:03:56So, you know, we had a good day.

0:03:59- I watched the halftime show.

0:04:03I think Usher was very fun, did a good job.

0:04:05- Okay. - I enjoyed that.

0:04:06- I'm gonna, upgrade listeners already know

0:04:08that I am an old, but I'm just gonna put it out there.

0:04:10I don't know who Usher is.

0:04:12I don't know anything about Usher.

0:04:13- I mean, Usher has been around for like 30 years, but.

0:04:16- Yeah, no, I got the sense very clearly that I think

0:04:21one of the things about having kids, especially,

0:04:23is that you lose whole periods of time where you're so,

0:04:26like, I can't tell you anything about Usher,

0:04:29but I can tell you a lot about the Wiggles, okay?

0:04:31So, but I'm gonna say this,

0:04:33from a position of being a complete Usher,

0:04:36like no knowledge guy, he's real good.

0:04:39Like that was a great show. - He puts on a show, yeah.

0:04:41- Incredibly talented, really great performance,

0:04:44loved the many channelings of Michael Jackson

0:04:48as a child of the 80s.

0:04:49I was like, he had a guy, he had a glove on at one point.

0:04:52There were guys dressed as Michael Jackson

0:04:54in his dance group at various points.

0:04:57The guest stars were really great.

0:04:58Alicia Keys, our, all Vision Pro users know,

0:05:02our close personal friend, Alicia Keys,

0:05:04she came out and killed it.

0:05:06So anyway, yeah, there's a great documentary

0:05:10about the Wiggles on Prime Video, so check that out.

0:05:13Michael Jackson was very much an influence for Usher.

0:05:16Usher's first album was in, I think, '94

0:05:18or something like that, so he's been around for a long time.

0:05:21I was a big fan of 8701, which is one of my,

0:05:26like was one of my favorite, I really liked it.

0:05:29I thought it did a great job.

0:05:30I really enjoyed the show. - Yeah.

0:05:32- And also-- - The Appomusic halftime show,

0:05:34of course. - Yeah, Appomusic halftime show

0:05:35and I will also say, as just, you know,

0:05:37as a person who loves love and fairy tales,

0:05:40I'm happy that the Chiefs won,

0:05:41'cause I just think it's great.

0:05:42I just love the whole thing and I know people hate it

0:05:44and I get it, but I love it.

0:05:45I just love that Taylor was there

0:05:48and like, it's just fun for me.

0:05:49I just think it's-- - No complaints.

0:05:51- Incredible, what a time to be alive.

0:05:53- I have no hate in my heart for Patrick Mahomes

0:05:56and for the Kelseys and Taylor Swift, obviously.

0:05:59No, none at all.

0:06:00I'm bummed out because the 49ers had many opportunities,

0:06:04like the Chiefs did, to make a decisive move,

0:06:07one thing different and would have won the game.

0:06:09And in the end, actually, I mean, really,

0:06:13in the end, neither of them did, sort of,

0:06:15until the very, very end.

0:06:16So it was one of those games.

0:06:18So I just have to shrug and say, it is a great story.

0:06:22I realized that everybody else in the world

0:06:24was hoping to see Taylor Swift be happy

0:06:28watching the Chiefs win and that's what happened.

0:06:30- Yeah, I mean, I can imagine too,

0:06:33as far as a Super Bowl goes, very exciting.

0:06:36Feel like it to unfold in the very closing moments

0:06:39of the game, like that is an exciting thing,

0:06:41unless it's your team.

0:06:43- Over time too, there's only been two overtimes

0:06:45in Super Bowl history.

0:06:46I mean, it came down, there was a moment

0:06:48in the fourth quarter where they're like,

0:06:50oh, this is a great one, it's coming down to the end.

0:06:52And Lauren sitting next to me on the couch is like,

0:06:54come on, it's not a great one,

0:06:57but it is coming down to the end.

0:06:58So it is dramatic in that way.

0:07:00- It was an exciting one, maybe, for that.

0:07:02- Exciting, messy game.

0:07:03- It wasn't a...

0:07:06- There were like fumbles and interceptions

0:07:09and dropped punts and there was lots of mistakes.

0:07:11- It's better than a domination though, right?

0:07:13Like if you're watching the sporting event.

0:07:15- For sure, for sure, for sure.

0:07:17What you want if you're CBS and you're selling

0:07:19lots of commercials especially,

0:07:20is a close game to the end and bonus overtime time

0:07:25for more commercials, like great.

0:07:28Like you absolutely want that and it is drama.

0:07:32It was very dramatic.

0:07:33Anyway, did I enjoy it?

0:07:34Sure, am I sad?

0:07:35A little, but that's okay.

0:07:37- A couple of items of follow-up.

0:07:40Well, one is a follow-up section inside a follow-up,

0:07:42which we'll get to in a second.

0:07:44- Great.

0:07:45- But last week we did, in Upgrade Plus,

0:07:49we did an extra segment where we put on our Vision Pros

0:07:53and we had a persona call and our video editor, Chip,

0:07:57put it into the video version on YouTube.

0:08:00So I'll put a link in the show notes

0:08:02to our full video version of last week's episode.

0:08:05If you're intrigued in seeing what it looks like

0:08:07when me and Jason were talking to each other

0:08:09with our personas in a picture in picture,

0:08:11there's a way to do that.

0:08:12- We actually have a video of just that segment too,

0:08:15if people wanna see that.

0:08:16There's a video of just that segment.

0:08:18- I would quite like people to click the link

0:08:20for the actual full YouTube public video though, you see?

0:08:23- All right.

0:08:24- So it increases the view count and feeds the algorithm,

0:08:28you see, rather than on the unlisted video,

0:08:31which won't help us out.

0:08:33- Well, it's listed now (laughs)

0:08:34with a better title,

0:08:35because I think it'll be better for the algorithm,

0:08:37but this is YouTube talk.

0:08:38We don't need to talk about it.

0:08:39- Well, whatever, you know, whichever way you do it,

0:08:41I'm gonna, did you just click the link

0:08:43and go watch the thing, you know, and that will be fine.

0:08:45- Yeah, watch it.

0:08:45Well, I mean, we did, Chip did an amazing job

0:08:47'cause it is us in the Vision Pro headsets

0:08:50and our personas talking for about eight minutes

0:08:52so you can get the full experience

0:08:54of Mike's mouth not opening and the whole thing.

0:08:57- Cool, then that's gonna be in the show notes.

0:08:59Go get it.

0:08:59I don't know if you've done it yet, Jason,

0:09:01but it's still unlisted, but the title's good.

0:09:04I relisted it.

0:09:05I don't know what it's, I'll re-undelist it

0:09:08or whatever they do on the YouTubes.

0:09:10- This is YouTube.

0:09:10Everything takes 10 more clicks

0:09:13than the two clicks it's supposed to take.

0:09:15- I don't wanna give away too much

0:09:17about conversations I have with our friend CGP Grey,

0:09:19but I did have a YouTube conversation with CGP Grey

0:09:24where I said, are there,

0:09:28I'm gonna boil it down to its specifics.

0:09:29I said, are there things we should be thinking about

0:09:33strategically about our videos?

0:09:37And he was like, yes, but don't listen to anybody's advice

0:09:41'cause it's all wrong.

0:09:42I was like, perfect.

0:09:44- Yeah, that sounds about right.

0:09:46I think so.

0:09:49- Yeah.

0:09:50- All right, DMA today time.

0:09:53♪ DMA today ♪

0:09:55♪ He talking about the DMA ♪

0:09:59- Is this a song that I should know

0:10:02or is that like an original composition?

0:10:03- Only if you're an American who remembers the ads

0:10:06for USA Today in the 80s on TV.

0:10:08But yeah, anyway, DMA today, here we are.

0:10:10- Jason created artwork.

0:10:11So if you use a podcast app that shows chapter artwork,

0:10:15you will now see DMA today artwork.

0:10:17- Enjoy, DMA.

0:10:18We made this up last week.

0:10:20Now it's a segment.

0:10:21- Yes, and so there's basically what,

0:10:23there's a couple of items of follow-up

0:10:25that I wanted to address that were related to this

0:10:28and then also a couple more debate.

0:10:32- I feel like we're having a slow debate with our audience.

0:10:37- Yeah, sort of.

0:10:38- This comes from Matt who says,

0:10:41"In your disagreement with Scott's feedback

0:10:44"on last week's episode about the burden

0:10:46"of a 50 cent core technology fee places on developers,

0:10:50"you said that free apps can just remain in the App Store

0:10:53"under the current rules.

0:10:54"That is true, but only if the apps are a type of app

0:10:57"that is allowed in the App Store.

0:10:59"Consider emulators explicitly legal by US law,

0:11:02"but banned from the App Store."

0:11:04And Rowe also wrote,

0:11:06and I'll say lots of people wrote in the variation of this.

0:11:09Rowe added, "In particular, open source applications

0:11:12"that Apple doesn't want on the platform

0:11:14"are effectively prohibited by the proposal."

0:11:16- All right, so here's the problem with podcasts

0:11:21is we're not gonna cover every issue every episode.

0:11:27I have talked about emulators and App Store

0:11:30rejection policies on it's gotta be at least a half dozen,

0:11:33if not a dozen episodes of upgrade.

0:11:36Not gonna mention it every time.

0:11:37So you're right, yes, I can't mention every single issue,

0:11:41but this is absolutely true.

0:11:42One of the whole points of what's going on here,

0:11:46and one of the reasons you'd might wanna be

0:11:48in an external marketplace is that you're making a product

0:11:52that Apple has decided they don't want on their platform.

0:11:56And therefore, how do you get it out there?

0:11:59I guess if you're using open source code

0:12:02that does not allow you to charge money for it,

0:12:05it's extremely difficult.

0:12:07If the license allows you to do that,

0:12:09then perhaps you could charge a dollar or something

0:12:13and do it that way.

0:12:15But yes, absolutely the case that there are apps that,

0:12:20I thought I even said last week, open source apps.

0:12:25But anyway, yes, I'll agree.

0:12:27I don't understand the you haven't talked about it part

0:12:30'cause God, we have talked about it so much, but okay.

0:12:33Yes, I agree.

0:12:35- I don't think anybody said we didn't talk about it,

0:12:36but I guess it's implied.

0:12:38Look, here's the thing.

0:12:39I don't have a lot of sympathy for this argument

0:12:45because they don't exist on the App Store currently, so.

0:12:48Right?

0:12:50- Well, the other context of last week's discussion

0:12:52is we were talking about the challenge

0:12:54for people who are in the App Store with their apps

0:12:56and they're free and would they go to the marketplace,

0:12:59which is not this scenario.

0:13:01This is a different scenario where you are saying,

0:13:03should I bring my app now inside Apple's official policy

0:13:08here 'cause let's be clear, these apps already exist.

0:13:11They just exist through like Alt Store

0:13:12and they're completely outside of Apple's domain.

0:13:15And this is like, they're bringing them into Apple's domain.

0:13:17Would they do that?

0:13:18But the conversation last week was mostly about people

0:13:20who have free apps on the App Store,

0:13:21would they enter into this system?

0:13:23And that's, you know, it's a different argument.

0:13:26- Right, this doesn't seem difficult to me, right?

0:13:28Like, if you're an open source app,

0:13:31go on the App Store as it is currently.

0:13:33You're not gonna make any money,

0:13:34so what's the problem?

0:13:35No problem to you, right?

0:13:36If you're an open source app or an emulator or whatever

0:13:41and you're not accepted onto the App Store,

0:13:43well, you're currently not on the App Store anyway,

0:13:45so nothing's changed for you.

0:13:47If you wanna be, well, you have to charge.

0:13:51And, you know, I'm sure you can work it out, right?

0:13:54Like, maybe the open source apps could come together

0:13:56into some kind of store and like,

0:13:58there's like a fee for all of these apps,

0:14:00but it's a nonprofit organization.

0:14:03You know what, there are ways around it.

0:14:05Like, my point is like,

0:14:07if an app currently doesn't exist on the App Store,

0:14:09this hasn't changed that,

0:14:11'cause they still don't exist before or after.

0:14:16Like, in theory, there's now a path for these apps,

0:14:18but there's a fee for it.

0:14:19And I understand that might be inelegant,

0:14:24it might be difficult, potentially impossible,

0:14:26but it hasn't, it's like Schrodinger's App Store, right?

0:14:30Like, they don't currently exist on the App Store,

0:14:32so nothing's changed.

0:14:34There is now a path in which they could,

0:14:37but that doesn't, in my eyes, really affect anything?

0:14:42I don't know.

0:14:43I feel like all I'm doing is creating more fodder

0:14:45for next week's DMA today.

0:14:46- It's fine.

0:14:47I just, I do think that there is a scenario

0:14:50that is gonna be potentially an issue here,

0:14:53where it's open source apps that are prohibited

0:14:56by the license to charge,

0:15:00who essentially can't be more than at a million.

0:15:03Although, I wonder, is there a feature of a sideloading,

0:15:06you know, sorry, an alternative app marketplace

0:15:09of like, we'll warn you when you get near a million

0:15:12and you can just-

0:15:13- Cut it off.

0:15:14- Turn it off at that point.

0:15:16I know what you're saying about that,

0:15:17but like, those apps don't exist right now,

0:15:20so like, nothing's changed.

0:15:22- We don't know.

0:15:23- It hasn't changed.

0:15:24- It hasn't changed.

0:15:25This is like a new question.

0:15:27One of the things that we felt was a positive

0:15:28of having alternative app marketplaces or sideloading

0:15:31was going to be that the idea that I can develop an app

0:15:35and know that it will come out because Apple can't say no,

0:15:38I can put it somewhere else, does run into this.

0:15:41But you're right, it's theoretical,

0:15:43because those apps have not been in the App Store,

0:15:45and we were really talking about apps

0:15:46that were in the App Store for free

0:15:48and what those developers could choose to do.

0:15:50I appreciate the feedback.

0:15:51I don't disagree with it.

0:15:51I'm just a little frustrated,

0:15:53'cause I feel like we've spent tens of hours,

0:15:5520s, you know, so many hours talking about these topics,

0:15:59and it feels like listeners are coming in saying,

0:16:02I can't believe you didn't mention this thing.

0:16:03It's like, well, it's not what we were talking about.

0:16:05- We cannot assume that people remember

0:16:08everything we've spoken about.

0:16:09Like, it is a private joke at this point,

0:16:13but also a public one, of like,

0:16:15I can't believe you didn't read my blog post,

0:16:17and like, this started with Casey.

0:16:19Like, we can't assume people remember.

0:16:22- I appreciate it, but at the same time,

0:16:23we can't talk about every single issue

0:16:26in every single episode. - For sure, for sure.

0:16:27- It's not possible, so I agree.

0:16:31- But in the context of the DMA,

0:16:33maybe we didn't fully cover this one thing,

0:16:37because we got a lot of feedback about this specific thing.

0:16:40But now we said it, and I'm sure you made it better,

0:16:42and I made it worse again.

0:16:44We'll find out next time on DMA Today,

0:16:45but I have more. - It's the balance.

0:16:47- I have more.

0:16:48So I wanna read a quote from Mark Zuckerberg

0:16:50about Apple's proposal.

0:16:51I've edited this a little bit,

0:16:53because it was a little,

0:16:55it was a spoken and then transcribed by The Verge,

0:16:59so I edited it a little bit for clarity.

0:17:02Mark says, "I don't think that the Apple thing

0:17:05"is going to have any difference for us.

0:17:07"I would be very surprised if any developer chose

0:17:09"to go into the alternative app store that they have.

0:17:13"They made it so onerous, and I think it's so at odds

0:17:16"with the intent of what the EU regulation was,

0:17:19"that I think it's gonna be very difficult for anyone,

0:17:21"including ourselves, to really seriously entertain

0:17:24"what they're doing here."

0:17:26- And there's somebody inside Apple who's like,

0:17:29"Mission accomplished." (laughs)

0:17:31- Well, yeah, but this is the thing.

0:17:32It's like, from Apple's perspective,

0:17:34this is exactly what they wanted,

0:17:36but this might be the exact thing they don't want

0:17:39when it comes to the approval from the European Union.

0:17:41- Well, even if the EU and the European Commission say,

0:17:46"Look, Apple is in compliance with the DMA,"

0:17:49if nothing happens, it seems to me that it will be unlikely

0:17:54that they will stop and say, "Well, we tried," right?

0:17:57That's probably not what will happen.

0:17:59Instead, what will happen is that they will take things

0:18:01like Mark Zuckerberg's comments and say,

0:18:03"Oh, we need to do more."

0:18:06And we'd previously spoken about the idea that Apple,

0:18:11and you would reference this,

0:18:12and I thought it was really insightful,

0:18:14that Apple's gonna do the best that they can

0:18:16to highlight every possible risk that appears

0:18:19from an alternative App Store app, right?

0:18:22That like, any scam, any anything,

0:18:25Apple's gonna like, shout about it.

0:18:27And in the expectation of that,

0:18:30I would like to look at it from the other side

0:18:32based on some news that came out this week,

0:18:34but I will start by reading from Apple's developer guidelines

0:18:37regarding alternate App Stores.

0:18:39Apple say, "If not properly managed,

0:18:41alternative distribution poses increased privacy, safety,

0:18:44and security risks for users and developers.

0:18:47This includes risks from installing software

0:18:49from unknown developers that are not subject

0:18:51to the developer program requirements,

0:18:53installing software that comprises system integrity

0:18:56with malware or other malicious code,

0:18:58distribution of pirated software,

0:19:00exposure to elicit objectionable and harmful content

0:19:04due to lower content and moderation standards

0:19:06and increased risk of scams, fraud, and abuse.

0:19:10This past week, an app called LastPass,

0:19:13or LastPass, appeared on the App Store,

0:19:17basically creating a spoof of the password app LastPass.

0:19:21So this app didn't necessarily seem to be trying

0:19:25to steal login information,

0:19:27but they were trying to get you

0:19:28to sign up for a subscription.

0:19:30You think you're signing up for LastPass, but you're not.

0:19:32This app has since been removed,

0:19:34but this is an example of something

0:19:36that never should have gotten through App Review.

0:19:38And then I feel like with the DMA rules in our minds,

0:19:41these things are also gonna happen,

0:19:43where it's gonna be much easier to highlight areas

0:19:47where App Review falls down,

0:19:49and we've never expected them to be perfect,

0:19:51but Apple is speaking in such high and mighty terms

0:19:54about the risk of fraud from alternative App Stores.

0:19:58Their own App Store has this problem,

0:20:00and has always had this problem,

0:20:02and will continue to have this problem.

0:20:03And I just thought this was particularly interesting,

0:20:07and probably got more attention because of the DMA,

0:20:11but I think is a very good example of the kinds of things

0:20:14that I think we're gonna be talking about a lot,

0:20:16where there's gonna be a bunch of tit-for-tat

0:20:18with this stuff. - For sure.

0:20:19I feel like this is one of the things

0:20:22that our sort of specific community talks about a lot.

0:20:25That is the counterargument to Apple's claims

0:20:31that they are the great protector of the platform,

0:20:35is that we have endless examples of dangerous and bad apps

0:20:40that just get approved,

0:20:42while at the same time perfectly reasonable apps

0:20:44get rejected for no apparent reason,

0:20:46and sometimes require like whole media blitzes

0:20:50in order to get somebody at Apple to pay attention

0:20:52and approve it.

0:20:53And it's very confusing why some stuff that is terrible

0:20:57just slides on through,

0:20:58and then other stuff that's perfectly fine

0:21:00in following the rules gets rejected multiple times.

0:21:03So this is the, yeah,

0:21:06what are the developers paying for

0:21:08if this is what they get?

0:21:09- I don't think that it would necessarily,

0:21:11I don't think it's fair to point at every possible scam

0:21:15and say, "Ha ha."

0:21:16But something like this specifically

0:21:18should never have gone through, right?

0:21:20- Nope, not in a million years.

0:21:21- Because this is a spoof app of a massive company

0:21:25with huge privacy implications, right?

0:21:27That this could have been an app

0:21:29to ask for your LastPass login, right?

0:21:32Like, you know, and maybe trick people

0:21:35into giving that information away.

0:21:37But it didn't seem like it was doing that,

0:21:39but it never should have gotten through App Review.

0:21:42Like there should be,

0:21:42and I'm sure there are types of applications

0:21:45that if they look like they're supposed to be something else

0:21:48they don't get through.

0:21:48And I bet they mostly focus on that with copyright material.

0:21:52I bet you couldn't do like, "Dibney Plus,"

0:21:54you know what I mean?

0:21:55Like, "Oh, sign up for 'Dibney Plus.'"

0:21:57No, it's not gonna happen, is it?

0:21:59With like, Mikey Moose or something.

0:22:01It's not, that's not gonna happen.

0:22:04But LastPass did.

0:22:06- Nestflix, Nestflix. - Nestflix.

0:22:08It's not gonna happen.

0:22:10- Probably.

0:22:11- Well, I don't know if they would care so much

0:22:13about Netflix right now, but.

0:22:15- Okay, but they're serious partners.

0:22:18- Yeah.

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0:25:01So we've got a lot of Vision Pro to talk about, obviously.

0:25:06We've had more time with that.

0:25:07- Don't we ever.

0:25:08- I wanna start by talking about your review.

0:25:11So you published a, how many word reviews?

0:25:14- 8,000 word reviews.

0:25:17- That's chunky.

0:25:18Like that is a chunky review for you.

0:25:20- It's the longest review I have written in quite a while.

0:25:22I've been in the 5,000, 4,000 word camp for a while.

0:25:26And I just, Stephen Hackett then did this shortly thereafter.

0:25:29And it's that thing where you're writing and you're like,

0:25:30"Oh, I'm 3,000 words in and there's no end in sight."

0:25:33And it ended up at about 8,000 words, yeah.

0:25:35- Which isn't a surprise to me because like, you know,

0:25:37I've recorded many episodes of podcasts

0:25:40about the Vision Pro now.

0:25:41We did a, I was really happy with the episode of Cortex

0:25:43that we did, which I'll put in the show notes too.

0:25:46- Can't wait to listen.

0:25:47- We're doing this and like, I still like,

0:25:49I was using it today obviously,

0:25:51and I'm still finding out things that I like

0:25:54and dislike about it, right?

0:25:55Like it's still happening.

0:25:56Like I'm still forming opinions about this.

0:25:59- Well, that's the other thing about doing this

0:26:03is I end up saying to myself,

0:26:07I need to finish, right?

0:26:12Like I need to get it out there.

0:26:14And I've got, I could have written 20,000 words, right?

0:26:18But then the review wouldn't be out there for ages.

0:26:22And so I decided I would, you know,

0:26:26I would call it at some point and say,

0:26:29"Okay, this is the first thing."

0:26:30And then I know I can write about all sorts of aspects of it,

0:26:34but at some point you just gotta

0:26:36kind of get the first response out there

0:26:37and then move on with the rest of your life,

0:26:39which is what I was trying to do.

0:26:41- I loved your framing.

0:26:42So like the, which I recommend people go read this.

0:26:45People should go read this.

0:26:46Even if you just read the intro and outro,

0:26:48you should read more, but like the framing of your review

0:26:52being that like, you know,

0:26:53you were there when computers started

0:26:55and it was very similar to this.

0:26:57Like I love this quote,

0:26:58there was very little software available

0:27:01and the suggestions your computer salesperson

0:27:04would give to adults were impractical things

0:27:06like keeping a recipe database or balancing your checkbook.

0:27:10Like these are the kinds of things

0:27:11that are happening when people were getting Macs

0:27:12for the first time and stuff like that.

0:27:14- And they, well, it's before that, it's even,

0:27:15it's the Apple IIs and Commodore pets and TRS-80s

0:27:18and the very, very, very early,

0:27:20and it extended for a while,

0:27:21but especially in that earliest of personal computer time,

0:27:25it was clear these, you know,

0:27:26it's like gotta get a computer,

0:27:28we gotta get them in schools, get them for home.

0:27:30If you can afford it, they were very expensive,

0:27:32you know, five, $6,000 in today's dollars

0:27:36for a personal computer and it didn't do anything.

0:27:39Today's stuff, I mean, the Vision Pro does a lot more

0:27:41than these things do, but it still gave me that feeling of,

0:27:44yeah, it does a lot more, but what do you do with it?

0:27:47Like, what is the practical application for it?

0:27:49And it feels very much like it's a technology searching

0:27:53for a practical application,

0:27:54but very clearly cutting edge, futuristic,

0:27:58we gotta get on board.

0:28:00That's the vibe that this really reminded me of is that,

0:28:04which is we don't know quite what it's for yet.

0:28:06We're trying, we're throwing a bunch of things out there

0:28:08that may be things that you could do to apply this

0:28:11to your life, they're not that practical,

0:28:14but still it's cutting edge and it's the future

0:28:17and you should probably pay attention to it.

0:28:19I get the same feeling from this as I do

0:28:21from that era when I was a little kid.

0:28:23- And you know, like, I think it's relative to, right?

0:28:27'Cause we were talking about this some months,

0:28:29so many months ago about the table stakes

0:28:31for the Vision Pro, right?

0:28:32Like the base stuff that a computer of any kind needs now,

0:28:37they had to build, which they did,

0:28:39but then we're building from the table stakes,

0:28:40like, all right, it does all the stuff a computer should do,

0:28:43but what do you use it for?

0:28:45So the question is still the same,

0:28:46even though the Vision Pro is more capable

0:28:49than an Apple II was,

0:28:52like what it can like just do straight out of the box.

0:28:55- Right, obviously it's much more capable

0:28:57and there's software for it,

0:28:59which was one of the issues

0:29:00with the early personal computers

0:29:01is that there wasn't a lot of software available,

0:29:03but the use case, searching for a use case

0:29:07is the thing that is similar, absolutely.

0:29:09- You say in your review,

0:29:11this is the most impressive piece of hardware

0:29:14I've ever seen.

0:29:16- Of Apple hardware?

0:29:17It is, I mean, if you take the light seal off

0:29:19and you just kind of hold the thing,

0:29:21like those displays are incredible and they're so tiny.

0:29:25And then, and the thing,

0:29:26I know we talk about how heavy it is and all,

0:29:27but like the core unit of it is so small

0:29:31and it's this glass aluminum thing.

0:29:33I mean, they put a lot of work into it.

0:29:36It's a very impressive, it's all packed in there.

0:29:38Again, I feel like there's two things you can say.

0:29:41You can be appreciative of what it is

0:29:44and how it was built and how cutting edge it is.

0:29:46And you don't have to believe it, right?

0:29:49You don't have to believe in it to appreciate those things.

0:29:51And so that's what I was trying to say is,

0:29:53this is, let's stop and appreciate it for a minute.

0:29:58And then we'll talk about whether it's implausible,

0:30:00impractical, what's going on with it.

0:30:02But clearly this is not Apple doing a half-hearted job.

0:30:06This is full throated Apple trying its best

0:30:10to make a cutting edge product.

0:30:12And I love to see it, love to see that.

0:30:14- One of the things I've been pretty,

0:30:16I think I've actually been pretty surprised about is,

0:30:19it has become pop culturefied in the past week quite quickly.

0:30:25Like lots of celebrities are wearing them.

0:30:29And producing social media content wearing them.

0:30:34- Sure.

0:30:34- But not as a joke, right?

0:30:37Like I think it has become a little bit of a status object.

0:30:41I think similar to how the Apple watch did at first,

0:30:44even though people were statusifying with the gold one.

0:30:48But I think it's the look of the hardware

0:30:51has allowed for that, right?

0:30:53It looks expensive as well as the fact that it is expensive.

0:30:59And I think that leans itself into a certain type of person

0:31:02online, the type of person who've been using it, right?

0:31:06Like it seems to be popping up all over the place

0:31:10for me at the moment anyway.

0:31:12- Yeah.

0:31:13- How did you write this review?

0:31:14Did you write it using the Vision Pro?

0:31:16- I wrote it almost entirely in the Vision Pro

0:31:19using a magic keyboard.

0:31:22I wrote part of it in one writer,

0:31:27which is my iPad app of choice for writing

0:31:31and is available as a compatible app.

0:31:33- Okay.

0:31:34- I wrote about the first half of it in that.

0:31:37And then after I gave some feedback

0:31:40to Simon, the developer of Runestone,

0:31:45a text editor that is out for Vision Pro

0:31:50about this challenge I was seeing

0:31:53where whenever I tried to type, it made the window wide,

0:31:56even though the text was narrow.

0:31:57And he and I talked about that a little bit.

0:32:00And then all of a sudden there was an update.

0:32:02It wasn't even a test flight build.

0:32:03There was just an update that fixed that issue.

0:32:06And I switched over and then I used Runestone

0:32:10to write the rest of it.

0:32:11And Runestone doesn't have like all the features

0:32:13that I want that one writer has, but it's good.

0:32:16It's a good solid markdown text editor.

0:32:18And it gave me the experience of writing,

0:32:22not just writing on the Vision Pro,

0:32:24but writing on the Vision Pro in an iPad app

0:32:27and then in a Vision Pro native app

0:32:29and the difference there, which was kind of interesting.

0:32:32The iPad app, all the targets are smaller,

0:32:34but at the same time, it was a familiar app.

0:32:38It was a full featured familiar app.

0:32:41It's set up to sync to Dropbox

0:32:43and Runestone syncs with iCloud.

0:32:47So I kept having to like copy my review back and forth.

0:32:50This turned out to be good

0:32:51because at the end of the process,

0:32:53I was just kind of, I had one writer open

0:32:56and I did something with my hands

0:32:58and it interpreted it as a swipe all the way to the left

0:33:01to delete the file.

0:33:03Yeah, it was a dropback box.

0:33:08I was able to undelete it

0:33:09and I did have a copy somewhere else,

0:33:10but I had that thought of like,

0:33:11well, this isn't great, right?

0:33:12And I think that's a good example of things

0:33:14that iPad app developers might not anticipate

0:33:17about how easy it might be to, for example,

0:33:19just delete a file with a swipe gesture

0:33:22because the swipe gesture is no longer quite as explicit.

0:33:24It can be done really, really accidentally

0:33:27and undo on a Vision Pro doesn't seem to exist

0:33:31or at least is not that common.

0:33:33Anyway, the actual act of writing was pretty good.

0:33:36I started writing and I wrote a little bit in BB edit

0:33:39in a Mac, but the truth is that the text clarity is greater.

0:33:43I mean, it's fine in the Mac, but it is nicer.

0:33:47The text is nicer in Vision Pro in an iPad app

0:33:50and even nicer, honestly, in a Vision OS app.

0:33:54I did a lot of it with,

0:33:55I was sitting on my couch for a lot of it

0:33:57with just the keyboard in my lap.

0:33:59I had environments on for some of it.

0:34:03I had environments not on for some of it.

0:34:05I had this thing where,

0:34:07especially when I like let my dog outside,

0:34:09I would dial in the environment enough

0:34:10so that when I was staring straight ahead,

0:34:12I was seeing the environment.

0:34:14But if I looked off to the right

0:34:15to the doors in our living room

0:34:16to see if the dog was out there or whatever,

0:34:19I could see whether the dog was out there or whatever.

0:34:22And that was good.

0:34:23I wrote some of it at my dining room table

0:34:25with just a magic keyboard

0:34:28and a magic track pad in front of me,

0:34:29no monitor, right, but using the Vision Pro.

0:34:32And that worked fine as well.

0:34:35So I can say authoritatively

0:34:38that one can write an 8,000 word review in the Vision Pro.

0:34:42That is absolutely true.

0:34:43Would it be my choice to always do that

0:34:47for everything I write?

0:34:49I don't know.

0:34:50Probably not, but maybe.

0:34:52I do a lot of those sort of like,

0:34:54I'm gonna go write in a different environment things.

0:34:56Like I don't write as much at my desk as you would think.

0:35:01I do a lot of, I'm gonna go write in the other room

0:35:04now that I've got Studio B or write at the bar on an iPad

0:35:08or in the summertime, right in the backyard.

0:35:10And I do that, and I used to do it at cafes.

0:35:13I do that to get out of my usual workspace

0:35:17and like shift gears.

0:35:19Well, now you could just go to a different environment

0:35:22environment and sit at the same desk.

0:35:25And maybe sit in a more comfortable place

0:35:27because ergonomically there are more places

0:35:29that I could sit and work and have a screen in front of me,

0:35:32like on the couch,

0:35:34when I could do that with a laptop in my lap.

0:35:36But like, one of the reasons I'm sitting at the bar

0:35:38is that I've got an iPad in a stand

0:35:41and that is where I do that.

0:35:43And that's fine,

0:35:44but also this might be a little more flexible ergonomically.

0:35:47So I don't know,

0:35:48I'm open to the idea of using this for writing,

0:35:52but I definitely did it for this review.

0:35:54I felt that was important and I think it was.

0:35:57- I wanted to touch on a couple of things

0:35:59that you said there.

0:35:59So like, obviously the Mac display,

0:36:03the Mac virtual display is not as clear,

0:36:05but it's clear, but it's just a little fuzzy.

0:36:07It reminds me of like,

0:36:08if you use a non-retina display with your Mac, right?

0:36:13- Right. - Or like a non-retina

0:36:14resolution display on your Mac is what it looks like.

0:36:16Everything is perfectly readable.

0:36:17It's just not crisp.

0:36:19- No, I did the thing where I actually sized it

0:36:23for the size of my studio display

0:36:25and placed it right where my studio display was.

0:36:28And that allowed me to say, oh, don't do this, right?

0:36:32Like if you've got a studio display,

0:36:33you should use the studio display.

0:36:35- Or make it bigger. - 'Cause it's not

0:36:36as good as that.

0:36:36But that doesn't mean it's a failure, right?

0:36:38It is a, yeah, it's a non-retina

0:36:39or at least less than what we're accustomed to thing.

0:36:43And we know people who have multiple monitors

0:36:45and those aren't all retina displays, right?

0:36:47Like, so you can do it and you can get up close

0:36:51and see it pretty well,

0:36:54but that's not really how you would work with it normally.

0:36:57From a normal working distance, it's lower resolution.

0:37:00It's perfectly usable, but yeah,

0:37:02it's not that high resolution that we're used to.

0:37:05This will be more useful, I think,

0:37:06if they add multiple display support

0:37:10for Mac mode at some point,

0:37:12'cause then you could really emulate the,

0:37:14I've got two slightly less than retina resolution monitors

0:37:18in a side-by-side or an up and down configuration.

0:37:20I know that people love that.

0:37:21I don't do that, but I know people do love that.

0:37:24That would be nice.

0:37:25- I mean, so today I did all of my show prep

0:37:30using my Vision Pro sitting in front of my studio display.

0:37:35And I, 'cause I wanted to see what that would be like.

0:37:40And it was, for me, just a truly fantastic experience.

0:37:44So I had the Mac, which is where I was,

0:37:47I had that as like the main screen in the middle.

0:37:49I had Google Docs in there

0:37:50because it's way better on the Mac

0:37:52because Google, it's just not good in a web browser.

0:37:57It will be better when they have an app,

0:37:59which I'm confident they will at some point.

0:38:02And I had like all these windows around me, right?

0:38:04Like the Vision OS apps,

0:38:05I felt like I had multiple monitors going on

0:38:08'cause I could have all of my chat windows, Slack.

0:38:11- Yeah, I had messages over on my right.

0:38:13I had Slack over on my left.

0:38:15Yeah, music up top.

0:38:16- And I said the Mac in the middle,

0:38:18and it was where I was doing a bunch of stuff.

0:38:20I was reading your article in Safari Vision OS,

0:38:24a Vision OS Safari, because it was nicer to read.

0:38:27But then at one point the copy paste stopped working

0:38:30between my two devices.

0:38:32But I really enjoyed that today.

0:38:34And I don't know what to do about that in a way,

0:38:37because as soon as I took it off and looked at my display,

0:38:41it's like, oh, that is nicer.

0:38:42But now I feel kind of like hamstrung

0:38:47by not having all of these other windows around me.

0:38:50Like that can be huge.

0:38:51And I love being in the environment

0:38:53because it's nicer than looking at the white wall

0:38:55behind my desk.

0:38:56So it was, I've got to try and contend with this

0:39:01a little bit 'cause, yeah,

0:39:02and I could feel it when I was reading your review,

0:39:04you're talking about, you make a bunch of references to,

0:39:08and I found them enjoyable about the idea of like,

0:39:10this is gonna restart the iPad versus Mac war, right?

0:39:15- The iPad wars, yeah.

0:39:17- Because it's like, oh, there's gonna be people

0:39:18that are gonna be trying to like force some stuff

0:39:21and like maybe jump through some hoops.

0:39:23- Yeah, I mean, I didn't mention Federico by name,

0:39:27but like, obviously I think it's gonna happen with him.

0:39:29But in general, like remember we had the iPad wars

0:39:31where it was like, oh, I can do work on an iPad.

0:39:33I'm gonna force it, I'm gonna push this.

0:39:34I'm gonna explore this, which I love that

0:39:36because it's really, hey, here's a new computing platform.

0:39:39Let's see what it can do.

0:39:40Let's take it out for a spin.

0:39:41Is it all gonna be something that everybody wants to do?

0:39:44Well, no, but that's not the point.

0:39:45The point is to try and see where the edges are

0:39:48and what the issues are.

0:39:49I've always appreciated the people who did that.

0:39:52I sort of did that to a certain extent,

0:39:54but never to the extent that many other people did.

0:39:57I look at this and I think, oh, same thing's gonna happen.

0:39:59And we're gonna get the same arguments again.

0:40:01And I think what I said in the review is sarcastically,

0:40:06oh boy, can't wait to bring back the iPad wars

0:40:10as the Vision Pro Wars, but it's 'cause it is so iPad-esque

0:40:14that people are absolutely gonna try that.

0:40:16That said, I had that moment, Mike, where I thought,

0:40:19I don't know if I mentioned this last week or not,

0:40:21but I had that moment where I thought, huh,

0:40:24would I have bought that studio display for Studio B now?

0:40:28Or would I have been just like,

0:40:29I can just put a laptop back there

0:40:31and use the Vision Pro when I wanna be back there.

0:40:33And I think maybe that would, I wouldn't have.

0:40:36I think maybe I wouldn't have, even though,

0:40:38'cause again, not that I would not buy a studio display,

0:40:41I have one and I would not have one at all,

0:40:44but I bought a second one for a second workspace

0:40:47'cause I felt like I had no other decent options.

0:40:50And now I keep thinking, one,

0:40:53I could use that space much more as a temporary space

0:40:56when I need to use a Mac to record a podcast.

0:40:58Do I need a big monitor for that?

0:41:01And do I even need to work there at all?

0:41:04I could work kind of anywhere with a Vision Pro

0:41:06and a MacBook Air.

0:41:07So I don't know,

0:41:10but it's certainly a different set of circumstances.

0:41:13- It feels like the Mac display is quite polarizing

0:41:17in how people find it to be useful or not.

0:41:21I feel like the more content I consume of people

0:41:24talking about this, the more I get some people say

0:41:27that it's like, it is the best thing

0:41:29and it absolutely makes the device

0:41:31and then others were saying this is absolutely unusable.

0:41:34And it's very interesting to me to hear the polarizing of it

0:41:38but I'm not really sure what's causing it with people.

0:41:43- I don't get it.

0:41:44I do, we'll talk about this later,

0:41:46but I do think that part of this

0:41:48is actually ergonomic related

0:41:50because some of the takes that I've heard about Mac mode,

0:41:53I can't square it with reality.

0:41:55And that's the problem.

0:41:56Everybody's welcome to their own opinion,

0:41:58but I hear descriptions of things like the Mac mode

0:42:03as being like really substandard

0:42:07and blurry and artifacty and all these things.

0:42:09It's like, I have a vision pro and eyeballs

0:42:14and I don't see it.

0:42:15I do not see it,

0:42:17which leads me to believe

0:42:18that this is not necessarily an opinion,

0:42:21but instead might have something to do with somebody

0:42:24having a vision issue or a light seal issue

0:42:28or something that is not,

0:42:31'cause I do not see it.

0:42:32I don't understand anybody who would say that it's unusable.

0:42:36I think that there's a really good debate to be had about

0:42:38since it is lower resolution, what is it good for?

0:42:42But I think it is good if you are traveling with a laptop

0:42:46and want a big screen.

0:42:47And then not only is it a big screen,

0:42:49but it's a big screen where some of the apps

0:42:51you might have open there,

0:42:51you can now open in Vision OS and keep your big screen

0:42:55in the center for the very Mackie stuff you need.

0:42:58I think it's kind of great.

0:43:01I think it's one of the banner features of the product.

0:43:03I'm not gonna go so far as to say

0:43:05you should never buy a monitor again,

0:43:07because having gone back and forth,

0:43:10like retina monitor that's real,

0:43:12it's 27 inches that's right in front of your face

0:43:14is pretty nice.

0:43:16I'm also a little bit baffled.

0:43:18And again, I don't know whether this counts

0:43:19as ergonomics or not,

0:43:20but I've also heard some people who are go,

0:43:22well, yeah, the problem with the Vision OS

0:43:25is the field of view.

0:43:25And so like you have to turn your head to see stuff.

0:43:30And I think don't people, I mean, if you have two monitors,

0:43:34you have to turn your head then.

0:43:36You can't, are people staring forward

0:43:38and then using their eyes and going side to side

0:43:41and keeping their head locked?

0:43:42I mean, you in the human real world,

0:43:44you also move your head around in order to look at windows

0:43:47if you've got a very large display.

0:43:49It's one of the reasons I don't have a very large display

0:43:52is that it sometimes seems like it's just way over there,

0:43:55really far away.

0:43:56And one of the nice things about Vision OS

0:43:57is I can arbitrarily move those windows around

0:44:00to anywhere I want so that I can look at them

0:44:03instead of having a monitor that is fixed

0:44:06and on a stand or something.

0:44:08So I don't know, I am on the pro Mac virtual display side,

0:44:13not like a hundred percent over there,

0:44:15but I admit to being baffled

0:44:17by some of the negativity about it.

0:44:19I think there's a debate to be had

0:44:20about when it's good to be used and when it's not,

0:44:23but it's pretty solid in my experience.

0:44:25I was impressed with it.

0:44:27- I think the variance of opinions

0:44:31on all things Vision Pro related is fascinating to me.

0:44:36I feel like there is a lot of conversation

0:44:40about things people feel they do and don't do.

0:44:43Like I've heard a bunch of people now

0:44:45talk about doing things on a Mac

0:44:49when they're not looking at them.

0:44:52And I don't think that's real.

0:44:55Or maybe this is so different to me.

0:44:59Well, I've heard this multiple places

0:45:00on multiple podcasts.

0:45:02John Siracusa was talking about it.

0:45:03I've heard lots of people talk about this now

0:45:05of like, oh, I'm always doing things on my Mac

0:45:08without looking at them.

0:45:10And I'm just not sure that that,

0:45:12I don't understand how that's possible.

0:45:15So like, I think that more than anything

0:45:18with the Vision Pro and Vision OS,

0:45:22I think there are way more divides

0:45:24in the your mileage may vary

0:45:26than any products they've made before.

0:45:28'Cause I think that we're bumping up against like

0:45:31things people do, things people think they do

0:45:35and things people can't think they do.

0:45:36- Invisible, I don't even wanna say invisible ergonomics,

0:45:41invisible ways of working with computers

0:45:44that we all took,

0:45:45we're all our own individual quirky people.

0:45:50But I think part of being a person is being like,

0:45:55I just do this thing.

0:45:56We all do this, right?

0:45:57We all do this, right?

0:45:59And then you get a moment like this where you're like,

0:46:01oh no, they do what?

0:46:04And then there's that second layer, which is,

0:46:06I don't believe that they actually do

0:46:08what they say they do.

0:46:10And there's no way to, unless you get a camera on them,

0:46:13you have to take their word for it.

0:46:15And I agree, I've had some moments where I'm like,

0:46:17oh yeah, I just moved my pointing device

0:46:21and without looking, I do a thing with a window

0:46:23and I'm like, what?

0:46:25I don't understand that, but okay.

0:46:27Like, all right, I guess that's your thing.

0:46:30I also was a little baffled by some of the criticism

0:46:32that I've heard about selecting windows in Vision OS.

0:46:37Now, the criticism that multiple windows

0:46:39in front of one another on the Z axis is bad, I agree with.

0:46:43It's if you get a window trap behind another window

0:46:45and you're like, oh my God, and you can't toggle,

0:46:47you can't command tab, you can't command tilde,

0:46:50you've got to like take your window

0:46:51and move it out of the way

0:46:52and then get that other window and move it away

0:46:53and then move your other window back.

0:46:54And I hate it, absolutely the case.

0:46:56However, I had great success in,

0:46:59if I have a window sticking out,

0:47:01of another window behind it,

0:47:04being able to look at the back window and tap

0:47:06and then it comes forward.

0:47:07I didn't have any trouble with that.

0:47:09- I have 100% done this constantly.

0:47:10Like it to me feels just like the Mac, right?

0:47:14That like, if there's a window in front of the other window,

0:47:16I just click the other window and it comes forward.

0:47:18And I've done this, the windows on top of each other,

0:47:20you can see the corner of the other one,

0:47:22you tap it and you can bring it forward.

0:47:24- Yeah, if it's a little, I mean, the difference is this,

0:47:26is the precision, right?

0:47:27Like if it's really close, it's not great.

0:47:30And I'm actually a little surprised

0:47:32that they aren't doing something with Vision OS

0:47:33that they do on the iPad now,

0:47:36where if a window is entirely behind another window,

0:47:40they slide it a little bit.

0:47:41So it's poking out enough for you to be able to select it,

0:47:44which is a great user interface thing.

0:47:46- I think I kind of like that it doesn't do that.

0:47:48- That it just leaves it there.

0:47:50I mean, maybe it would be an option.

0:47:51- I just wanna be in full control

0:47:53of the placement of all my windows.

0:47:55That's one of the things I love about Vision OS.

0:47:57- I get that.

0:47:58My only hesitation is sometimes due to nothing you want,

0:48:04a window is completely behind another window

0:48:07and probably I didn't wanna put it there and it's lost.

0:48:13- In that scenario, what is the problem?

0:48:15- A window that I want to grab is invisible

0:48:21because it's hidden behind another window.

0:48:23And for me to get it, I need to move a window

0:48:26and then move another window

0:48:28and maybe move another window back.

0:48:29- You can also launch it again

0:48:31and it just brings it to the front.

0:48:33- Hmm, I mean, yeah.

0:48:35- And I'm not saying it's ideal,

0:48:36but I'm saying it's a thing you can do.

0:48:38You can ask your assistant

0:48:40or you can bring up the thing and just launch it again.

0:48:43- Have you had the minority report thing?

0:48:45I've had a few moments where I really felt

0:48:47like I was in minority report,

0:48:48where I have had a window

0:48:51and I need to bring it into my vision more,

0:48:53it's off to the side.

0:48:54And I literally look at it and I go flip

0:48:56and now it's close to me and I go,

0:48:58(mumbles)

0:48:58and I do something and then I go, okay, now be gone.

0:49:00And I grab it again and I go flip

0:49:02and I put it back out to the left.

0:49:03I'm like, oh, that's the stuff I use.

0:49:06Window management.

0:49:07- Right, like music, I mostly just leave the mini player,

0:49:10but if I wanna do something more,

0:49:12I'll grab the mini player, bring it down,

0:49:13open it up, do what I need, put it back.

0:49:15Like I love spatial computing.

0:49:19Like I love this idea of I'm sitting on my desk

0:49:23and I have all of these windows around me.

0:49:26I do kind of like the fact that they make the cone,

0:49:31but I would like to be able to more easily rotate them

0:49:34on their X axis, right?

0:49:36- Oh, interesting.

0:49:37Just slide them all around.

0:49:39This gets us something that I think is on my top

0:49:42on my wishlist of Vision OS 2, which is just,

0:49:44I feel like there needs to be more window management

0:49:46scaffolding, it's like, I understand it's a 1.0.

0:49:49- Yes.

0:49:49- And I say that in the article, it's like, I get it,

0:49:51it's a 1.0, but clearly one of the places,

0:49:54window management scaffolding, right?

0:49:56Like it just doesn't exist really on Vision OS

0:49:58because it doesn't really exist on iPad OS

0:50:00and iOS with the exception of stage manager,

0:50:03which is, this is not that, but the Mac has it.

0:50:06And I kept finding myself rotating the windows around you,

0:50:10like you're spinning a carousel is a great idea.

0:50:13I thought about like Expose, where they all kind of show up

0:50:16or being able to toggle between them in some way,

0:50:18'cause you're right, there are workarounds,

0:50:20but like I kept thinking or spaces that save,

0:50:23the idea that I'm like, save this collection,

0:50:25but now I want it to go away and do something different,

0:50:28but then come back to it later.

0:50:30And like, I'm sure they'll get there,

0:50:31but like those are all the things that struck me,

0:50:33it's like, this is good, but it's so 1.0,

0:50:35where it's like, nope, fend for yourself right now,

0:50:37that's what you have to do.

0:50:38- For me, the most important of all of them,

0:50:41like I understand the idea of like having an Expose,

0:50:44the most important for me is there needs to be

0:50:47some kind of memory of my window placement with a restart.

0:50:52- Yes, for sure.

0:50:54- Because this thing, the standby battery is bad,

0:50:58like it's bad, if you do not have it plugged in,

0:51:01it will be dead tomorrow,

0:51:02like I've experienced that multiple times.

0:51:05And so then all of my window management

0:51:07from the previous day is blown away.

0:51:09And like what I ideally want is it to work like a Mac

0:51:14that doesn't use Stage Manager,

0:51:16'cause Stage Manager by the way, every time you reset,

0:51:18it just blasts all your stages into infinity,

0:51:20you have to reset them all up again.

0:51:22But Macs without Stage Manager,

0:51:24I can't believe that that happens by the way,

0:51:26considering this feature exists,

0:51:27if you don't use Stage Manager,

0:51:28your Mac remembers where your window placement is.

0:51:31But that's what I want VisionOS to do,

0:51:34that when I restart, it does that.

0:51:36Otherwise, give me some kind of shortcut placement

0:51:40or something, that I can say open them and put them here

0:51:43and put them there or whatever.

0:51:45I made a shortcut by the way, this is hilarious,

0:51:47like I just wanna see what happens,

0:51:49'cause you can make shortcuts to open apps, right?

0:51:52- Yeah.

0:51:53- I made a simple shortcut that opened three apps,

0:51:54'cause I thought what I could do is I could run a shortcut,

0:51:57it opens my five apps and I just move them, right?

0:52:00So it's like less buttons.

0:52:02- Sure. - So it had three actions,

0:52:04it was open Safari, open Todoist, open Notes.

0:52:07What happened was it opened Safari, then it opened Notes,

0:52:11but Safari was gone.

0:52:13So like it was just opening one app at a time,

0:52:16but like resetting everything, it was very weird.

0:52:20If anybody's had better luck with shortcuts for this than me,

0:52:24let me know, I don't know what happened.

0:52:26But it was like, it just removed all of like the other app,

0:52:30it was very peculiar.

0:52:31But they need to have some kind of,

0:52:35I think that's the start,

0:52:36and then like window management in general

0:52:38needs to be better.

0:52:39Have you come across the force quit yet?

0:52:42- Yeah, oh yeah.

0:52:43- What a wild thing that that is there.

0:52:45I don't remember how I got it,

0:52:48I think if you press and hold a button,

0:52:50I think it might, I don't know which it is,

0:52:52you get a little force quit menu,

0:52:54which is of all of the things to have,

0:52:58that is hilarious to me, that force quit is there, right?

0:53:03Like iPad OS doesn't have force quit.

0:53:08You have multitasking where you can swipe them away,

0:53:12but it is very interesting to me that like,

0:53:14they chose to have a force quit menu,

0:53:17buried within Vision OS is kind of incredible really.

0:53:22- Yeah, it's a Mac like kind of thing,

0:53:24yeah, you press and hold both buttons down

0:53:26and the force quit comes up.

0:53:27- I love it, I think it's hilarious.

0:53:29- Yeah, get rid of that.

0:53:30- So going back to your review,

0:53:33were there any apps for you,

0:53:35I would say actually during the review process

0:53:37that were missing, like did you have any issues with,

0:53:41like there was an app that you needed or wanted

0:53:43for the writing of it?

0:53:45- I think Discord was the one that I actually check in

0:53:48on regularly that really I had to use the Mac to use.

0:53:51I mean, I guess I could log in in Safari,

0:53:53but I did not wanna do that.

0:53:55- It's in compatibility mode though.

0:53:57- Hmm, is it?

0:53:58- Yes.

0:53:59- I didn't see it there when I was working on it.

0:54:00- I have it, yeah, I have it.

0:54:01- You have it?

0:54:01Okay, all right.

0:54:02No, I mean, the truth is it mostly,

0:54:05most of the apps that I needed were there,

0:54:07that I use are there.

0:54:08And again, iPad compatibility mode was helpful.

0:54:12So speaking of iPad compatibility mode,

0:54:14I'll just say it here, 'cause it's in the review.

0:54:17I feel like the iPad apps are maybe scaled

0:54:22a little too small, maybe.

0:54:24- Yes.

0:54:25- But I feel like the VisionOS apps are too big.

0:54:28I feel like they're not quite dense enough.

0:54:33And I know this is a real intangible thing

0:54:35and I get why they're so big,

0:54:36but I have a moment where sometimes I'm working

0:54:39with both iPad apps and VisionOS apps.

0:54:42And the iPad apps are like, here's all this content

0:54:46in a little tiny box.

0:54:48And the VisionOS apps are,

0:54:49here's a little bit of content in an enormous box.

0:54:52And I think, and this, it's related

0:54:55to other window management issues that we should,

0:54:58or app window management topics that we should talk about.

0:55:02Like, I wanna minimize things, right?

0:55:08So many of these VisionOS apps are so huge

0:55:11that I can't keep them open all the time,

0:55:13but I don't really wanna close them.

0:55:15And I don't have a thing to do.

0:55:17And like mini player, apps with mini players are great.

0:55:20Like music, and I was using Long Play,

0:55:22which has a mini player, so great.

0:55:24And I had that moment where I'm like,

0:55:25oh, I've got Fantastic Cal open.

0:55:27It's great.

0:55:28It's enormous.

0:55:29- I can't believe there isn't a small version

0:55:31of Fantastic Cal.

0:55:33- I've already complained to them about the fact

0:55:34that I want to reduce it down.

0:55:37I wanna be able to reduce it down to the sidebar.

0:55:39- Yeah.

0:55:40- Right?

0:55:40But like, what I really want is not just for them

0:55:43to invent a mini player.

0:55:44I want Apple to say,

0:55:46here is a way you can have your app minimize.

0:55:51And if you wanna show something that is widget-like,

0:55:53you can do that.

0:55:54And otherwise we'll show like an icon.

0:55:57And then when you tap on it, it springs back out.

0:56:01And that's just not there.

0:56:02Again, it's 1.0, I get it.

0:56:03But like, I kept having those moments

0:56:06because these VisionOS apps are beautiful,

0:56:09but they are huge.

0:56:11And the iPad apps are more compact.

0:56:14And I'm not saying that the iPad apps are the right size.

0:56:18I'm saying that I appreciated their compactness

0:56:21when compared to VisionOS apps,

0:56:23which to me seem to be huge.

0:56:25And one way you could fix that

0:56:27is to scale everything down a little bit.

0:56:30Another way that would help

0:56:31would be to have a little more of an affordance

0:56:33to pop them into mini player mode quickly

0:56:37when you don't need them at that moment.

0:56:39And then when you tap on them, they spring back out.

0:56:41And that is another window management thing

0:56:43that needs to happen down the road.

0:56:46- So I'll give you a couple of points in there.

0:56:49For Calendar, I've been using an app

0:56:51that I found on Mac stories called Day Ahead,

0:56:54which is wonderful.

0:56:55There's a beautiful little app

0:56:56for like just having there and visualizing a day.

0:57:00Yeah, I think the idea of having some kind of,

0:57:03if it wasn't widgets, like maybe it could be widget,

0:57:05but maybe it's also just like small apps, right,

0:57:08that can expand would be great.

0:57:10And VisionOS does feel like this really weird mix

0:57:15of Mac ideas and iPad ideas together, right?

0:57:18Where it's like, you can have the windows wherever you want,

0:57:21but you can't minimize them.

0:57:22You just close them like on an iPad, right?

0:57:25Because they'll be ready for you when you come back.

0:57:27But it's like, yeah, but.

0:57:29- We thought the iPad was already a weird mix

0:57:31of iPhone and Mac.

0:57:33VisionOS is like, wait a second.

0:57:36It is even weirder 'cause it is even more like the Mac.

0:57:39- Yes, it's like hold my beer.

0:57:40- But without the underlying 40 years

0:57:43of Mac window management rules.

0:57:44So it's sort of like, close it maybe, I guess.

0:57:47'Cause they just, and again, I get they needed to ship this.

0:57:50I get that it's 1.0, but this is one of those areas

0:57:52where it's like, oh boy, you got a lot of work to do here.

0:57:54You got a lot of work to do here

0:57:56because some of this stuff is really great.

0:57:59And then you're like, okay,

0:58:00I don't need to see the Calendar right now,

0:58:02but I'm gonna want it again in a little bit.

0:58:04And then they're like, well, you just got to close it, man.

0:58:06That's all you can do.

0:58:07That's sorry, that's it.

0:58:09That's all you can do.

0:58:10- The iPad compatible apps though for me

0:58:12is where I have the majority of my eye tracking failure.

0:58:17- Yes, I agree.

0:58:18- I think it's because stuff is so small and close together.

0:58:21And so I think there is a middle ground though, I'm sure.

0:58:23Right?

0:58:24'Cause I feel like Fantastic Cal is an example of an app

0:58:29that has a lot going on and I deal with it fine.

0:58:32Like it looks a lot like the iPad app.

0:58:34Like it's not like they spaced everything out way too much.

0:58:37- No.

0:58:38Yeah.

0:58:39It's not like the future recedes into the background.

0:58:41I mean, it is just a VisionOS updated version

0:58:45of their iPad app, but it's good.

0:58:47It just seems, it's big

0:58:49and I don't want to keep it open all the time.

0:58:51And I don't really want to, I guess I can put it,

0:58:53hide it behind other windows or whatever.

0:58:55But you're right, the touch targets,

0:58:56I guess they're eye targets, right?

0:58:58But the scaling of the iPad app, like I said,

0:59:00I appreciate the density,

0:59:01but it is where most of my failures happen.

0:59:06I'll also say, I think it varies from app to app

0:59:08because like apps that are super,

0:59:11iPad apps that are super optimized for the pointer,

0:59:16for hover and pointer support

0:59:19are way better on VisionOS.

0:59:21Right?

0:59:23Ones that always give you feedback wherever you're looking,

0:59:27which is the equivalent of hovering an Apple Pencil, right?

0:59:31This is one of those cases where Apple is recycling

0:59:33all these things as they move their platforms forward.

0:59:36So they did the pointer support

0:59:38that is also the hover support for the Pencil.

0:59:40And it's now the hover support for gaze in VisionOS.

0:59:45And the ones that do that pretty well are navigable.

0:59:50And then there are other ones that do it less well

0:59:53and that they're harder to use.

0:59:55But I also agree that, yeah, in general,

0:59:57the gaze targets are all small enough

1:00:00that I find that hard.

1:00:01Sometimes I was in Slack, I think,

1:00:03which actually does a pretty decent job,

1:00:05but I had a moment where I was trying to tap on an item

1:00:07in the sidebar and I couldn't do it.

1:00:10It was either the one below it or the one above it.

1:00:14And I couldn't get it to look at the one

1:00:16until I grabbed the window, moved it over,

1:00:18made it bigger, stared at it for a little while.

1:00:20It knows what it did.

1:00:21And then it finally selected.

1:00:23And that's a sign.

1:00:24I do really appreciate, by the way,

1:00:26iPad compatibility mode, I didn't mention this before,

1:00:29has rotation support.

1:00:31So there's a little icon in some apps that support rotation

1:00:34in the upper right that you can tap.

1:00:36And it goes from portrait to landscape and back again.

1:00:38And so when I wrote all those words in one writer,

1:00:41I was using it in vertical orientation.

1:00:44So I had a big sheet of paper in front of me

1:00:46and that was really great actually.

1:00:47But I mean, the iPad compatible apps,

1:00:49I guess what I would say,

1:00:51I don't know what you think about it.

1:00:53Like there are issues, but they're usable.

1:00:57And I'm really glad they're there.

1:00:59- This episode is brought to you by DeleteMe.

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1:03:04Our thanks to DeleteMe for their support of this show.

1:03:06And we'll AFM.

1:03:07You love panoramas.

1:03:12- I do.

1:03:14- And I felt like- - They're really great.

1:03:15- We shared a moment in your review.

1:03:18You said, "Seeing a friend give a toast

1:03:19at another friend's wedding

1:03:21and being able to look around to spot other people

1:03:23in the crowd, that was special."

1:03:25So I remember this happening during my wedding.

1:03:28I think Steven was giving a toast, my toast.

1:03:32- He was. - And I saw Jason stand up

1:03:33and walk and take a panorama.

1:03:35And I thought to myself, "Oh, that's good.

1:03:36I would quite like that."

1:03:37And you sent it to me and I have that panorama.

1:03:39I've looked at it multiple times.

1:03:41And you sent it to me again recently

1:03:43with a second that I didn't have, actually you took two.

1:03:46And I opened that panorama and I looked at it.

1:03:50And the panorama is odd in spots, right?

1:03:53As they tend to be.

1:03:54But I got a huge lump in my throat

1:03:58because I was back at my wedding.

1:04:00And it was very surreal and very emotionally touching.

1:04:06It was really cool.

1:04:09- Yeah, I mean, what was great about it is not only is it,

1:04:13you and Nadine are there and Steven's giving a toast,

1:04:15but like all these people I know are sitting

1:04:18at these tables, especially the table, right?

1:04:19In front of me.

1:04:20So I'm able to see, I saw Tina, Sarah-Q,

1:04:23so John's not there 'cause John is also shooting photos

1:04:26at this point.

1:04:27But like David Smith is there and I mean,

1:04:29Gray is there and like David Sparks and I mean,

1:04:32it's just all these, my kids are there.

1:04:33- Yeah.

1:04:35That will probably be the biggest assembly

1:04:38of Relay FM hosts ever, I think.

1:04:41Which is very nice to me.

1:04:45- Yeah, it's a fun thing.

1:04:47And this is the thing.

1:04:48I know that Apple has talked a lot about like the 180 video

1:04:52and that they're doing their immersive video

1:04:54and that the spatial video from the iPhone

1:04:55and from the Vision Pro and the 3D spatial shots

1:04:59you could do with the Vision Pro.

1:05:01But the panorama, if you get a good panorama,

1:05:06it really is spectacular.

1:05:08And I have been shooting panoramas

1:05:11before there was digital photography.

1:05:12I was shooting panoramas when you had to have

1:05:14special software to stitch the panoramas together

1:05:17and then eventually like Photoshop added it.

1:05:20And then eventually your phones just had a panorama mode

1:05:23and boy, wasn't that nice.

1:05:24But I've been doing it for a very long time.

1:05:27And I have some that I shot so much that you can,

1:05:31it's most of the way behind me too.

1:05:32And depending on the angle and Apple processes

1:05:35is the other funny thing, right?

1:05:37It shows a panorama as a photo

1:05:40and then there's a little like panorama button

1:05:42at which point it enters this mode and it's doing stuff.

1:05:46It is finding a way to place that panorama in the right way

1:05:50and de-distort it and do all these things

1:05:52to put it around you.

1:05:53And it's not, I mean, you look up

1:05:55and you can see your ceiling and you look down,

1:05:56you see your floor.

1:05:57Like it's not completely immersive, but it's powerful.

1:06:02I was looking at a thing I shot about a year ago now

1:06:06on a bridge over a river in New Zealand and like,

1:06:11oh, it's so good.

1:06:12Like I'm on that bridge again,

1:06:14looking down at that bright blue water,

1:06:17light blue water coming out of the glaciers.

1:06:21And it really, I mean, it's not the same as like,

1:06:24oh, now you're, it's like a memory because it's a 3D video.

1:06:27It's not quite the same as that, but it's pretty great.

1:06:30I mean, it is pretty great.

1:06:31Not enough reason to buy this like on its own,

1:06:33but like I think an underappreciated thing that it can do.

1:06:38And then of course my thoughts immediately went to,

1:06:42well, you can't make panoramas into environments

1:06:45because they're not as immersive as that.

1:06:47But I started to think one,

1:06:48I feel like there's gonna be,

1:06:50I wonder if there will be options down the road

1:06:52to build a more immersive environment from panoramas

1:06:57or from panorama mode, right?

1:06:59Like iOS might get a thing where you shoot more of it

1:07:01all the way around and it creates an environment

1:07:04that you can use, not animated, not with sound,

1:07:06but like an environment you might be able to inhabit

1:07:09in the Vision Pro either to work or just to be in.

1:07:12I wonder about that.

1:07:13And I also wonder about generative AI

1:07:15and if they might actually be able to do stuff

1:07:17where you can take a panorama

1:07:18and then fill it with generative AI.

1:07:20'Cause it's like probably mostly like sky and stuff

1:07:23and maybe it fuzzes out at the edges

1:07:25and then goes to nothing

1:07:26or goes to just sort of a harmonious color.

1:07:29But like, not only would that be nice to look at,

1:07:32but I do wonder if it like some of these shots,

1:07:34these panorama shots, I could work in that panorama

1:07:38if it was just a little bit more.

1:07:39So I don't know, I think they're great.

1:07:41I do, you're right, I do love panoramas.

1:07:44They're really good.

1:07:45And I have them, Mike, in 1997,

1:07:48when my parents sold the house I grew up in,

1:07:51I shot panoramas of every room in the house

1:07:55and many things outside.

1:07:58And I made a QuickTime VR oven back in the day.

1:08:01Back in the day.

1:08:02And now I gotta get those files out

1:08:04and I have them all on a film camera, by the way,

1:08:06shot on a film camera.

1:08:07So I've got the scans and I can rebuild those.

1:08:11And those are gonna, you talk about having,

1:08:14that house burned down.

1:08:15Like, talk about having memories

1:08:18and being able to be present in a memory.

1:08:21I can't wait to be able to do that.

1:08:23- And I've seen more examples of like,

1:08:26and I've had like photos and videos,

1:08:28I've been sending around like the spatial ones.

1:08:31Sometimes they hit-

1:08:34- I let you sit on my couch.

1:08:35- Yeah, sometimes they hit.

1:08:39- Sometimes they do.

1:08:41- And like, I had a, we were visiting with a friend

1:08:44a while ago and they took a video of me and Idina

1:08:46and it was like, it was weird.

1:08:47I watched it today, they sent it to me

1:08:49and they were like, and it was kind of like,

1:08:51oh, it's like I have a memory of myself.

1:08:54It was very, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

1:08:58I think I said this on last week's episode,

1:09:01but I remember now, like the examples that I have

1:09:03that I've taken, it is way better to have no movement

1:09:07of the phone.

1:09:09Like if the phone is still and there's movement occurring,

1:09:14that is what makes a good spatial video.

1:09:17- Yeah, it's a different techniques

1:09:19and what works and what doesn't.

1:09:21But I think that there is a, at least,

1:09:23I don't know if it's the only way it works,

1:09:24but a way that it works is that you are there,

1:09:27it's still and you're in the moment instead of,

1:09:30once you start panning around,

1:09:32there's an author and it's not you.

1:09:34- It also loses the, I feel like it loses the impact

1:09:37of the effect a little bit too, when there's movement,

1:09:42like that's caused by the camera.

1:09:43I feel like it's just not as effective, I think.

1:09:48But yeah, I'm intrigued to see the advancement

1:09:52of this stuff.

1:09:53I did today, I took a 3D photo of the desk in front of me

1:09:58and then opened it and it freaked me out.

1:10:02(laughing)

1:10:03Because it was like, ah, my desk,

1:10:05'cause it also was like a little bit higher than my desk.

1:10:09But it made my brain go weird for a second,

1:10:13like I'd fallen, it was very strange.

1:10:15I don't recommend doing that.

1:10:16Or do it, but it's weird, be aware of that.

1:10:20I've traveled with my vision probe.

1:10:22I will tell you right now, I chickened out

1:10:25of wearing it on the plane, I didn't do it.

1:10:28And there were two reasons for this.

1:10:29One, I feel like--

1:10:30- You don't wanna be that guy?

1:10:31- I don't wanna be that guy, 'cause that guy,

1:10:33the idea of that guy had already proliferated enough

1:10:36over the week that I didn't wanna be that guy.

1:10:37Plus, we took off at nearly midnight, I had to sleep.

1:10:41And so I just slept.

1:10:42- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:10:43- And so I didn't do it, but I also feel like,

1:10:45as time went on, it felt less important to do that.

1:10:49But what I'll say is, the Vision Pro is heavy for travel.

1:10:54It's not impossible, but that thing in a backpack

1:10:57is not comfortable to carry.

1:11:00- Did you have a case?

1:11:01- I have the Apple case, yeah.

1:11:03Which is also heavy.

1:11:05- Does that fit in your backpack?

1:11:06- In the backpack I have, yes.

1:11:07I will say it actually fits horizontally in my backpack too.

1:11:12I use the Bellroy Venture Ready,

1:11:16I'm gonna put a link to it in the show notes.

1:11:17If somebody wants a backpack where they can fit it in,

1:11:21I was able to fit my dongle bag,

1:11:26which is also a Bellroy tech pouch,

1:11:28my Vision Pro thing, and my AirPods Max in a case.

1:11:33Like a full hard case, it'll all fit in the bag.

1:11:37So this bag is great for Vision Pro.

1:11:40But then I got my laptop and my iPad in there as well,

1:11:42because that was what I had on the track.

1:11:43And that's a lot.

1:11:45Like it's, you got a lot going on in that bag, it's heavy.

1:11:50But it is a fantastic computer for traveling.

1:11:56So when I got home, I wanted to finish and post cortex

1:12:01'cause it was done.

1:12:02And that's still like multiple hours of work for me.

1:12:05But I was at home, so I only had my laptop.

1:12:07So I used the Vision Pro and then I had a huge screen.

1:12:10And like logic on a 13 inch laptop

1:12:14is not a great experience.

1:12:16But I had like a 40 inch monitor with logic on it instead.

1:12:19Like it really, like the Vision Pro is perfect

1:12:23for making a small laptop more functional.

1:12:25And more ergonomic, like it really is an excellent pairing

1:12:30with those two things.

1:12:33And so like it will be a great travel computer for sure.

1:12:37But you have to be aware of the fact that it is heavy.

1:12:40It is heavy.

1:12:41- I'm traveling toward the end of this week.

1:12:45And I'm looking forward to experiencing all of the issues

1:12:49that come with it, pro and con.

1:12:51I am very much looking forward to it.

1:12:53- Yeah, I think you're gonna dig it.

1:12:56I do, I think you'll dig it.

1:12:57But you just need to be aware

1:12:59that if you put it in a backpack,

1:13:00like you're gonna feel it because--

1:13:03- I'm sure. - Do you have the case?

1:13:04Do you have a case?

1:13:05- I do not have a case.

1:13:06- Okay, you gotta get a case.

1:13:08- I'm going no, I'm going no case.

1:13:10I'm gonna go no case and I'm gonna see what the issues are

1:13:13and then I'll decide.

1:13:14I got to see the Apple case, the big puffy pillow.

1:13:19Don't think I really like it,

1:13:20but I'll decide whether I want a case or not.

1:13:24- How are you gonna travel with it?

1:13:27You're just gonna put it in a bag?

1:13:29- Yep.

1:13:30- Ooh, okay.

1:13:32- I'll put it in a bag, yeah.

1:13:33- You got bigger guts than me is what I'll say,

1:13:36putting that thing just straight into a backpack.

1:13:38It feels, I don't know if it feels delicate,

1:13:42but I treat it delicately, if that makes sense.

1:13:46- The main part of it's pretty solid.

1:13:47There are those, there are the little bands and all that,

1:13:50but I got, you know, I don't know.

1:13:51I'll stick some socks in there and pat it.

1:13:54- So today is the first day I worked in the studio with it

1:14:00and I answered two very important questions for myself.

1:14:04- Okay.

1:14:05- One is, which I was really worried about,

1:14:08how was it gonna deal with the terrible overhead lighting

1:14:10that I have, right?

1:14:12I've spoken about this on the show before, right?

1:14:14That Mac webcams struggle with it.

1:14:17It was fun.

1:14:19- Nothing, no flickering, nothing.

1:14:21So thank you to Apple for dealing with that.

1:14:24And also I was wondering,

1:14:26will my fancy keyboards plugged in via USB

1:14:30work with universal control?

1:14:32And they do, they work fine.

1:14:34- Of course they do.

1:14:35- But mice don't.

1:14:36What is going on with that?

1:14:41- Do the mice even not work in universal control?

1:14:43- Nothing.

1:14:45- Huh, interesting.

1:14:47- So my Logitech mouse, it just stops at the edge of the Mac

1:14:50and doesn't do anything.

1:14:50- It stops at the edge, wow, that's wild.

1:14:52- I don't know what the thinking is there

1:14:54because mice work on iPad.

1:14:57- Yeah, they don't like it.

1:14:59- Weird.

1:15:00- They think mice are afraid of vision pros.

1:15:02- That was very, very strange to me,

1:15:05but I was super happy that my nice,

1:15:06I care more about the keyboard

1:15:08'cause I use a mouse and a track pad at my desk.

1:15:11I use both and so I can just use that.

1:15:13And also to be honest, I'm still mostly using eye tracking

1:15:18than a track pad when I'm like going from window to window.

1:15:25Like I just use the mouse on my Mac

1:15:28and then I look at something on another window

1:15:30and I'm using eye tracking and typing and stuff like that.

1:15:33So I use that combo and I love that combo

1:15:35that you have all of these different input methods.

1:15:38It's like one of the things I loved about iPad.

1:15:43Talking about that quickly,

1:15:44I've had a lot of people say to me like,

1:15:46oh, why is nobody talking about the fact

1:15:47that you can directly manipulate an app?

1:15:50Because it's not a good experience is why.

1:15:52Like, you know what I mean?

1:15:54You can bring an app to you and you can like scroll it

1:15:57and tap it and that kind of stuff.

1:15:58- Oh yeah, right, right, yeah, you can.

1:16:00- It is not nice to do.

1:16:01- I hate it.

1:16:02- It's not a good experience, which is like the reason,

1:16:04like people, I'm seeing a lot of videos made about it.

1:16:07Like, oh look, you can do this.

1:16:09It's like, it looks good for a video,

1:16:11but it is not a nice experience to like try and scroll

1:16:14and stuff like that.

1:16:15- Yeah, what the videos don't show is that inside

1:16:18you're touching a thing that isn't there, has no feedback.

1:16:23Like typing on that keyboard is terrible enough,

1:16:26but the idea that you're now tapping on the,

1:16:28you know, it's not there on the invisible place

1:16:31and not, and your finger just passes through

1:16:34and when it passes through, it registers the tap.

1:16:36It's, I hate it, it's awful.

1:16:38- Yep, the eye tracking is great.

1:16:40The kind of like finger tracking is not good, right?

1:16:42Like, you know, so it is not a good experience to do that.

1:16:46Like you can, but you shouldn't.

1:16:48You really should be using all the other different methods

1:16:51of input that they have.

1:16:53- Yeah, agreed.

1:16:55- What else would you like to talk about today?

1:16:57- Oh, I didn't realize this, but there are some videos

1:17:03in the Disney+ app that are high frame rate,

1:17:06including "Avatar" and Disney has said,

1:17:08I think "Titanic" is gonna go in there in high frame rate.

1:17:11I, one of the things that we haven't talked about a lot

1:17:14is that this device supports high frame rate video.

1:17:17And so like the "Avatar" movies are in 48 frames a second,

1:17:203D, and while it is, you know, high frame rate is weird

1:17:25in a sense that you almost get that soap opera effect

1:17:28a little bit, but "Avatar" is so unreal already.

1:17:33And honestly, getting rid of motion judder

1:17:36and having everything be smooth,

1:17:38especially in these, you know, almost entirely CGI,

1:17:413D scenes in "Avatar", it's really good.

1:17:44I actually really like it.

1:17:46There are moments where I'm watching "Avatar"

1:17:48and I feel like I'm literally just watching

1:17:49a video game cut scene, but I think that that's because

1:17:52video game cut scenes are literally trying to be movies.

1:17:55And this is a movie that's trying to be a movie too.

1:17:58It's not trying to be a video game cut scene,

1:18:00but there are those moments that I have that where I'm like,

1:18:02what is this?

1:18:04But the high frame rate video, oh, like again,

1:18:07not for everything, it's got issues, but I'm curious.

1:18:10And I would actually really like to see if whoever is it,

1:18:15would it be in "Max"?

1:18:16I don't know where the "Lord of the Rings"

1:18:17or the "Hobbit" movies that were shot in high frame rate are,

1:18:20but I'm actually kind of curious.

1:18:21I know that people, a lot of people didn't like it,

1:18:23but like, this is a device that's capable

1:18:26of showing high frame rate and capable of showing 3D.

1:18:29And I think that's cool because we don't have a lot of like

1:18:32video viewing devices that will offer those things.

1:18:36So anyway, I just wanted to mention that,

1:18:38that it's actually in like a,

1:18:40I think a Disney press release that they have these movies

1:18:43that are gonna be in high frame rate.

1:18:45- That's cool.

1:18:45- I mentioned last week, by the way,

1:18:48that some of my movies were in 3D, but not in 3D.

1:18:52It turns out a bunch of people sent this in

1:18:55and including I heard from somebody inside at Apple

1:18:57who said that like, it's an issue with movies anywhere

1:19:00where you buy it on a disc and you put in a code

1:19:02and then it goes in your iTunes library

1:19:03where it was not registering.

1:19:05So the issue was it said you could play it in 3D,

1:19:09but it didn't play in 3D.

1:19:11If it was a movies anywhere movie.

1:19:13And they seem to have adjusted that on the store side

1:19:15where now it doesn't say you can play it in 3D.

1:19:18Now it's still a real bummer because one,

1:19:20I'd like it if I could, thank you very much.

1:19:22There's probably a licensing issue there

1:19:24where like the movies anywhere, you don't get the 3D,

1:19:27like how some of them, you don't get the 4K upgrade.

1:19:29You just have to stay back with whatever you bought.

1:19:31That's kind of a bummer, but it's also a user.

1:19:33It's still a problem because there's no way for me to say,

1:19:36I would like to give Apple money

1:19:37to get the 3D version of this.

1:19:39It just isn't possible.

1:19:42Like if you got it via movies anywhere,

1:19:44now it's not gonna say it's in 3D for you,

1:19:47but you also can't get it in 3D.

1:19:50It's sort of blocked.

1:19:51Now that may be a short-term fix

1:19:53and there's a long-term issue

1:19:54when they may be dealing with the licensing.

1:19:55But anyway, a little bit of follow up.

1:19:57That was what was going on.

1:19:59It's a movie I bought on disc

1:20:01and the rights aren't there for that movie apparently.

1:20:04And so it doesn't get shown.

1:20:07We promised to talk about ergonomics

1:20:08and I do wanna talk about ergonomics a little bit.

1:20:11I went to the Apple store

1:20:12because I still have had issues on and off with Optic ID.

1:20:18And I've talked to some people who have said

1:20:20they think that that is because I'm too far away

1:20:23and that my light shield is the wrong size.

1:20:27So I reran the light shield measurement,

1:20:29which keep in mind, I ran on the day I ordered it.

1:20:32And it gave me a different size,

1:20:35a smaller size of light shield.

1:20:38It gave me the, I wanna say 21W,

1:20:40which was completely sold out

1:20:41because it's the most popular size.

1:20:44I went on Apple support site.

1:20:45They have the ability to ask,

1:20:47they ask you a bunch of questions about your fit.

1:20:51You can't just specify a size.

1:20:53So I started like answering all the questions

1:20:55in different ways to see what sizes

1:20:57it was trying to give me.

1:20:59A friend of mine who works at Apple suggested

1:21:03a smaller size that is about the same size,

1:21:06just slightly smaller than the 21W

1:21:09that has apparently worked for some people.

1:21:13And I did a swap with that.

1:21:17So I'm gonna get that today and try it.

1:21:19And hopefully that will be better

1:21:21and I'll be a little closer.

1:21:23'Cause what happened was I took my cushion off

1:21:26and that meant I was a little closer to the display.

1:21:30It's not, without the cushion,

1:21:31it's not gonna be comfortable for very long,

1:21:33but I did it to see if I could get a little closer

1:21:35and then Optic ID started working perfectly.

1:21:38I thought, oh, okay.

1:21:40- So that was the main issue for why you wanted to change

1:21:43was because of Optic ID.

1:21:44It wasn't that you weren't finding it uncomfortable.

1:21:46- I had people say that one of the reasons

1:21:48you can really improve your field of view a bit

1:21:51if you're closer, obviously, which does make sense,

1:21:54and that you might be able to see things better.

1:21:57But for me, it was really that Optic ID

1:21:58would just sometimes not work.

1:22:00So I went into the Apple retail store

1:22:02and they're very friendly,

1:22:03and they were sold out of my size.

1:22:08I talked to somebody who sent me to somebody

1:22:10who sent me to somebody, I ping ponged around the store.

1:22:12Eventually I got an appointment

1:22:14that was only for like 10 minutes later for a fitting.

1:22:17But the guy who gave me the fitting, who was very nice,

1:22:19but like had clearly never done this before

1:22:22or almost never done this before.

1:22:23And I have my whole thing in a shopping bag.

1:22:25I've got all the Vision Pro stuff.

1:22:27And he goes over and he gets one and brings it to me

1:22:31and has me try it.

1:22:32And it's the one that's the common one

1:22:34that they're sold out of.

1:22:35And he's like, "Yeah, is that better?"

1:22:37And I'm like, "Well, the Optic ID works.

1:22:38So yeah, maybe this is better."

1:22:39But he can't sell it to me.

1:22:43And I say, "Well, what should I do?"

1:22:44And he says, "Well, you should do a swap."

1:22:46But when I go to the swap,

1:22:47even though that was the size I tried,

1:22:49I can't say, "Send me that size.

1:22:51I have to go through this thing."

1:22:53So here's the larger issue.

1:22:54And I'm gonna take this out.

1:22:56I am not blaming anybody in Apple retail

1:22:58'cause I think they are overwhelmed and trying their best.

1:23:01But I've also heard like other people talking about this

1:23:07who are describing things that I have not seen.

1:23:10Here's my gut feeling.

1:23:12I think there is an enormous ergonomics problem

1:23:16with Vision Pro fitting.

1:23:17And what Apple needs is to train their retail people

1:23:23well about walking through different sizes,

1:23:27about not just scanning with the app,

1:23:28but walking through different sizes,

1:23:30figuring out the right ones.

1:23:32And from my perspective in my store,

1:23:35it felt like they were really not experienced in doing that.

1:23:40And what we know from a lot of reports from a lot of places

1:23:43is that the emphasis that Apple placed on training

1:23:46for Vision Pro in Apple retail

1:23:48was on the marketing experience of the walkthrough.

1:23:51And again, not placing any judgments

1:23:55on the retail employees,

1:23:56I'm placing judgments on the people at corporate

1:23:58who are in charge of retail.

1:24:00I think Apple made a huge mistake

1:24:04in not focusing on the ergonomics

1:24:06of getting these things to fit.

1:24:08It smells to me like somebody said,

1:24:11"Oh, we wrote a thing in the app that scans your face

1:24:14and gives you the right size and it'll solve it."

1:24:17But I can tell you from my personal experience

1:24:19that it gave me different sizes.

1:24:21At different times.

1:24:23And then when I went in, they scanned my face again

1:24:25and it was the new size that I had scanned at home,

1:24:28but was not the size I scanned on day one.

1:24:30And then they didn't have it

1:24:31and they didn't really know what to do.

1:24:33And when they told me what my right size was,

1:24:35I couldn't actually go through the process on the website

1:24:38of ordering a replacement

1:24:39because it wouldn't let me put in that size.

1:24:41So I think they screwed this up.

1:24:44I think that Apple retail needs people trained

1:24:46in a truly extensive sizing experience

1:24:52where they not only know to try multiple sizes

1:24:57and know what to look for in terms of

1:25:00with the person who's trying them on

1:25:03and not just rely on an app and then sort of shrug

1:25:07and say, "Well, we don't have that size, good luck."

1:25:10The website needs to be changed too.

1:25:12But I feel like they dropped the ball here

1:25:14where they actually have a product

1:25:16that it's seeming based on some of the things

1:25:18that I'm noticing people say

1:25:19and how they do or do not conform to what I've noticed.

1:25:21It seems to me that this is a product

1:25:24that actually needs a lot of work

1:25:27in terms of getting that light shield to be the right size,

1:25:31the right fit for somebody.

1:25:33And when I go into retail,

1:25:37it feels very much like they have gotten a lot of work

1:25:40on how to do a demo,

1:25:42but are a little bit at sea

1:25:43when it comes to giving a user a proper fit.

1:25:48And that feels like a mistaken emphasis.

1:25:51And maybe they'll get better.

1:25:52I know it's early days,

1:25:54but using a clever app to scan your face

1:25:56clearly isn't good enough since it gives different results.

1:25:59And that when you go in for your sizing appointment,

1:26:04I feel like, at least in my experience,

1:26:08it ended up being kind of a,

1:26:10"Well, this is what the app says, so we'll try it out."

1:26:13And I had somebody tell me later

1:26:14that I should have asked for other sizes,

1:26:18but how would I know to ask for other sizes in the moment?

1:26:22The person doing it should know, right?

1:26:24And I think he was under-trained,

1:26:26but he should be like,

1:26:28"Well, here's the size that we scanned,

1:26:30and here's the one that's bigger,

1:26:31and here's the one that's smaller.

1:26:32And now here's a process we go through

1:26:34to determine on your Vision Pro or on our demo Vision Pro,

1:26:37depending on what the deal is, whether it fits or not."

1:26:41So I got this gut feeling now

1:26:43that some people are reporting things

1:26:45that strike me as being very weird about the Vision Pro,

1:26:48and I think it's probably ergonomics.

1:26:50I think it's probably the fit of the light seal.

1:26:53It might be their eyes, it might be the lenses.

1:26:56There may be other things going on too.

1:26:57I get that this is a really complicated product,

1:27:00but again, my experience at the Apple store

1:27:04was very much like, they aren't good enough at this part.

1:27:07And this part seems like it might actually

1:27:09be really, really important.

1:27:11So that's my takeaway.

1:27:13- I agree with what you're saying.

1:27:15I think part of the issue that they're gonna have

1:27:19and will continue to have is like,

1:27:21I don't know if they know yet how people find it

1:27:26and how it works from a fitment perspective.

1:27:30- I know, I know, right?

1:27:32I mean, that is part of it. - And also people

1:27:33don't have the language to express

1:27:37what they are or aren't experiencing.

1:27:39Like I've been thinking to myself,

1:27:40like I hear people talking about it,

1:27:41I'm like, I wonder if I am doing it right.

1:27:44Like, am I using the right cushion?

1:27:47Do I have the right light seal?

1:27:49Like these are, we don't truly know.

1:27:54And that is a complication of the experience.

1:27:57So for example, for me, I have two light seals

1:28:01at different sizes because I originally bought it

1:28:06without prescription lenses

1:28:07'cause it was all I could do at the time

1:28:09and then bought my prescription lenses.

1:28:11And then it told me I needed a different size light seal

1:28:13for my prescription lenses.

1:28:15And I wonder like, do people have,

1:28:18I don't know when, maybe you can tell me, I don't know,

1:28:20when you buy the reading lenses, do they resize you?

1:28:23- I have no idea.

1:28:24- Because they made me do the scan again.

1:28:27And I wonder like, maybe if you don't get size

1:28:30or maybe people didn't get sized correctly or whatever.

1:28:33- They do ask, they do ask, do you need lenses?

1:28:36And I think that goes into the sizing,

1:28:39the presence of lenses for sure.

1:28:41- But like there's something going on,

1:28:42like I know there's something going on there

1:28:44with like the lenses and it can,

1:28:46this isn't for everyone, but for some people,

1:28:48you end up with a different size light seal

1:28:50if you get lenses.

1:28:52So I don't maybe like, what if it failed during the scan

1:28:56and then people got lenses,

1:28:57but now they have the wrong light seal

1:28:58because now their eyes are too close or whatever, right?

1:29:01Like it's complicated.

1:29:03It's like, all right, there are two cushions.

1:29:04- It's very complicated.

1:29:05- Why are there two cushions?

1:29:07Like I genuinely feel like I would,

1:29:08I don't know why they're there.

1:29:11- Yeah, not really well communicated.

1:29:12- What feels to me like kind of like urban legends

1:29:16about what the cushions do, right?

1:29:19And I feel like it's getting away a little bit now

1:29:24because you're listening,

1:29:26because like the potential buyers are hearing me

1:29:29and they're hearing you and they're hearing Federico

1:29:32and Jon and everyone's just talking about what they're doing

1:29:36and they're like, I was listening to app stories today

1:29:38and Jon was like, I tried this cushion and it was better.

1:29:41And Federico was like, oh, I should try it.

1:29:42And I'm like, oh, should I try it?

1:29:44But you know, like it's complicated.

1:29:47- And this is what the retail, so, and how do you do that?

1:29:50Well, if you can't go to a retail store,

1:29:52you're gonna deal with this sort of thing.

1:29:53And I guess that's how that's gonna happen.

1:29:55And that seems to be why the web is the way it is

1:29:58where they're like, what was wrong with your fit?

1:30:01And then they generate a size for you

1:30:02based on your original size

1:30:05and what's wrong with your fit.

1:30:06Very clever, but first off, if you get a different size,

1:30:11you can be like, you can't put in, give me that size.

1:30:14So that's annoying.

1:30:15But at the retail, if you're at retail,

1:30:17this is where they have the power to say,

1:30:20we have all the cushions,

1:30:21we have all the light seals in this drawer

1:30:24and we're gonna bring them out and we're gonna try them.

1:30:26And we got a method and we're gonna tell you

1:30:28how does this feel and what to look for,

1:30:30what to feel for.

1:30:32And I get that that's hard and they may not know,

1:30:34but like that needs to be the solution here

1:30:36for a $3,500 product by the way.

1:30:38It's like that needs to be done right.

1:30:40And it doesn't feel to me, at least in my experience,

1:30:42that they are doing it right.

1:30:44And I get that it's hard,

1:30:46but you can't have people doing urban legends

1:30:51about light seals and cushions.

1:30:54And I had somebody say, hey, here's the size

1:30:57you really wanna get if you want good field of view.

1:31:00I'm like, okay, but aren't we all different?

1:31:05And are people gonna get the wrong ones and all of that?

1:31:07And that's why you need somebody who's got all of them

1:31:10and a process to walk you through it.

1:31:12And I know that that's what they intend to do,

1:31:15but at least based on my experience,

1:31:17what I got was, let's scan your face.

1:31:21Oh, that size.

1:31:22We can try it, although we don't have it in stock.

1:31:25Here it is.

1:31:26Is it good?

1:31:27I mean, Optic ID worked.

1:31:29I don't know.

1:31:30He's like, great, okay, we're done.

1:31:31And I'm like, well, that's not how it should be.

1:31:34It should be a process.

1:31:35It should be, we got, I mean, Optician's, Optometrist

1:31:39would be like A or B, which one is better, right?

1:31:42We're not doing that, but we are doing sizing, right?

1:31:45Or like getting clothes in two different sizes

1:31:48and trying them on.

1:31:49Like you kinda wanna bracket what got measured

1:31:51and go through that.

1:31:52And like, I got none of that.

1:31:53I don't know if that, if I just got a bad one,

1:31:55I don't wanna throw my guy under the bus.

1:31:57It felt like, 'cause again, it felt like

1:31:59he wasn't very well-trained on it.

1:32:00And I don't know whether that's this store

1:32:02didn't train him well or whether Apple as a whole

1:32:05is not training people well for this,

1:32:07but I know that they all got trained about how,

1:32:09exactly what words to say while walking you through

1:32:11encounter dinosaurs or whatever, right?

1:32:14I know they got trained on those words.

1:32:16And my experience in the retail store is

1:32:20you chose the wrong thing to focus on.

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1:35:23Let's finish out with some Ask Upgrade questions.

1:35:26We got lots and lots of Vision Pro Ask Upgrade questions

1:35:31and I encourage people to keep sending them in.

1:35:32We won't get to them all today, but we will get to them.

1:35:34So please keep sending them in.

1:35:36Dylan writes in to say, and this is actually,

1:35:38I wanted to do this one first

1:35:39because it follows on from what we were just talking about.

1:35:42Are you having any lens glare

1:35:44inside of your Apple Vision Pro?

1:35:46This happens for me during high contrast movie scenes

1:35:49or when viewing any bright content

1:35:51against dark environments.

1:35:52These moments make the viewing experience look smudged

1:35:56and lowered the device's overall immersion.

1:35:58Apple Vision Pro is a brilliant device,

1:36:00but this drawback is unfortunate given the price point.

1:36:02I am wondering if my Zeiss lenses

1:36:04have anything to do with it.

1:36:06- And I have absolutely seen the lens glare.

1:36:09I only really noticed it in very dark environments

1:36:14where there's a very bright image in the center.

1:36:17So basically that's, yeah, movies in a dark environment

1:36:21and it's absolutely there.

1:36:22It's like a lens flare.

1:36:24It happens at the sort of toward the bottom

1:36:26and it is a bit distracting and it is, it's kind of a bummer.

1:36:30I mean, my answer is use a different environment,

1:36:34but if you wanna be in the dark movie theater

1:36:36and have that kind of feel, it's there.

1:36:40I'm wearing Zeiss lenses, absolutely.

1:36:42I don't know whether it magnifies it or not,

1:36:44but it's definitely a real thing.

1:36:46- This is funny because today I was having

1:36:50the same lens glare issues with all the lights on

1:36:53in my studio just sitting and doing work.

1:36:55So this is one of the things, what's causing it?

1:36:57I don't know, right?

1:36:59Is it reflection?

1:37:00Is it light coming in?

1:37:02Like this is like another of these things

1:37:03where I feel like I'm, again,

1:37:05like everything we've been talking about today,

1:37:07hearing completely different examples and reasons

1:37:12and possible theories about something

1:37:15that we just don't understand yet.

1:37:16But yes, there is some glare.

1:37:18- Zach in the Discord is saying it happens without inserts.

1:37:21So my expectation is there could be multiple things

1:37:25going on here that if you're in a dark environment

1:37:27and there's some bright light, it may reflect,

1:37:30but also you can just, if light gets in,

1:37:33like you've got light getting in from somewhere

1:37:35that also it could reflect from the screens.

1:37:37I don't know, but there is glare going on.

1:37:40That's for sure.

1:37:41We go from glare to Blair.

1:37:44Blair asks, do you think the one virtual display limit

1:37:47when mirroring from a Mac is a hardware limitation

1:37:51or could support for multiple displays

1:37:53or breaking windows out of a single Mac display

1:37:56be added in a future software update?

1:37:58So Ben Thompson has said,

1:38:02he said it in his Chitakri article about the Vision Pro,

1:38:07that he has heard that there are people inside of Apple

1:38:08that have more than one Mac display

1:38:11running on the Vision Pro, which is not a surprise to me.

1:38:14So I don't know if, I don't think it's a hardware display,

1:38:17a hardware limitation.

1:38:18I think it's just a processing thing

1:38:20and it's probably easier to do it with one

1:38:24rather than multiple.

1:38:25Maybe there's an issue with like certain Macs

1:38:28might not be able to do it.

1:38:29And so that might add a complication

1:38:30that they just didn't want to deal with right now.

1:38:32- Like if like the M1 and M2 Macs can't do it,

1:38:35but the Pro and Macs models can.

1:38:38And so they're keeping it simple for now, but maybe,

1:38:41I mean, it would be great.

1:38:42It would be great if you could do two.

1:38:44Yes, it would be great.

1:38:45I know there's like an open source thing

1:38:47that it has like a, it's a hack

1:38:48where you can pull windows out.

1:38:50I mean, that would be great.

1:38:51If Apple could at some point make it

1:38:52so that Mac OS windows just kind of like float

1:38:55in wherever you want, that would be cool.

1:38:57But I think it's unlikely because it would require

1:39:00a real complete rethink of all of the, you know,

1:39:05interactions with windows.

1:39:07So I think it's less likely

1:39:08that something like that would happen.

1:39:11But who knows?

1:39:12I mean, maybe they would do something like

1:39:14make your desktop be transparent or translucent

1:39:19instead of having a desktop pattern on it.

1:39:20And so it sort of feels more like Vision OS,

1:39:23even though it's not, but two displays would be nice.

1:39:28- Tim writes in and asks,

1:39:31connecting to a Mac from Vision Pro seems useful,

1:39:34but it makes me wonder why they don't simply allow you

1:39:37to run Mac OS as an app natively on the device.

1:39:41The specs seem in the same ballpark as a Mac,

1:39:44and it would make the Vision Pro

1:39:45an even better travel device

1:39:46if you didn't need an actual Mac with you.

1:39:49Do you think this is a technical limitation

1:39:50or a policy choice in Apple's part?

1:39:52- Well, as somebody who's been championing the idea

1:39:55of iPad OS getting support for virtualized Mac OS

1:40:00at some point with a high-end iPad Pro, it can be done.

1:40:06I would say that Vision Pro is doing a lot already.

1:40:09And so pushing this hardware even further

1:40:11with something like this seems like a lot.

1:40:14I think in the long run, it's a possibility.

1:40:16You also have the input problem, which is to run a Mac,

1:40:18you have to pretty much have to have a track pad

1:40:22and a keyboard.

1:40:24And the best way to get that is to connect to a Mac.

1:40:27But do I think it's possible that in the long run

1:40:30Vision Pro devices, Vision OS devices could run a Mac

1:40:35just on their own?

1:40:38Sure, right?

1:40:39I don't know if they ever will.

1:40:41I think that there are probably some technical limitations

1:40:43and policy choices here, but Tim is right.

1:40:47It's not like this hardware can't run Mac OS

1:40:50because we know that it does in other configurations.

1:40:54It's just that this hardware is doing other stuff

1:40:56and it's busy with that stuff.

1:41:00I don't know if they even tried,

1:41:03but I do think this is a potential future

1:41:04for iPad and for Vision OS is could you just run Mac OS

1:41:08as virtualized in a Mac app in certain modes

1:41:13with certain input devices connected?

1:41:16Maybe, but I don't think it's gonna happen anytime soon

1:41:18on Vision Pro.

1:41:19- I will say, for me, I do much more like the idea

1:41:24of using Vision Pro to connect to my Mac

1:41:27rather than being a Mac, right?

1:41:31Because then it would be an empty Mac, right?

1:41:33- An empty Mac that you'd have to sync

1:41:35and you'd have to do all those things.

1:41:36- Exactly.

1:41:37I mean, I get the idea of like, oh, well,

1:41:39now you don't even need to travel with a Mac.

1:41:40Wherever you go, a Mac is with you.

1:41:42But the truth is wherever you go,

1:41:44you'd still need the keyboard and the track pad, right?

1:41:46You'd still need that.

1:41:48So there is an argument to be made that at that point,

1:41:51perhaps you should bring your Mac and have your Mac with you.

1:41:55But I don't think it's impossible,

1:41:57but you're absolutely right that as somebody

1:41:59who is now maintaining two different places where I work,

1:42:02like every time I sit down at one after it's been a while,

1:42:06I'm like, oh geez, that thing isn't here

1:42:08and that setting isn't here and I need to,

1:42:10did I update this app over here?

1:42:12And like, there is an advantage to having it be yours

1:42:15and not another Mac that has to sync

1:42:17all the things from your Mac.

1:42:19- Yep.

1:42:20And Kevin writes in to say,

1:42:23"Many, if not most of the initial Vision Pro reviews

1:42:27have called out how big you can make windows,

1:42:29especially video and how impressive this is.

1:42:31But I find it a little puzzling

1:42:33and wonder if you could comment based on your experience.

1:42:36What's the practical difference between a small window

1:42:39positioned close to your face and a large virtual screen

1:42:42in a virtual movie theater?

1:42:44Is watching a movie on a massive window in Vision Pro

1:42:46really any different from sitting closer to a 4K TV

1:42:49in your living room?"

1:42:50- I mean, the truth is that the Z-axis

1:42:54is kind of a lie in Vision Pro.

1:42:55Everything is always sort of the same size.

1:42:57It's just sort of where it is in the stack,

1:43:00but you can also resize images.

1:43:02So I would say is the practical difference

1:43:04is actually between a movie window

1:43:07that is in the center of your vision,

1:43:10but it's only sort of like in a narrow field

1:43:12or you make it really big.

1:43:14And now it's like you're sitting in the first row

1:43:15of a movie theater where you can't actually even see

1:43:18the whole picture in your vision

1:43:19without turning or looking in the corners.

1:43:21That's the difference here

1:43:23is that you can make them really big.

1:43:24Now, could you sit closer to the 4K TV in your living room

1:43:29and get a similar thing?

1:43:30Yes, you could.

1:43:33But people don't do that. (laughs)

1:43:38And yeah, I mean, yeah, that's what I would say

1:43:44is yes, you could get really close.

1:43:46Although the quality is very good.

1:43:48When I get close to my 4K TV, I see a lot of artifacts,

1:43:54which I don't feel like I see so much on Vision Pro.

1:43:57But the idea is that you can be anywhere

1:44:00and be as close to the screen as you want.

1:44:03Whereas in the real world,

1:44:04unless you put your TV right next to your couch,

1:44:08you're probably looking at it from a distance.

1:44:11And so, yeah, I don't know.

1:44:13I think to me, that's the difference.

1:44:16- I mean, look, it's perspective and it tricks your brain.

1:44:19It's like, why even go to the cinema?

1:44:22What is it about seeing a cinema screen that you like?

1:44:25Then why not just always sit really close to your television?

1:44:28Like there is a perspective thing that feels good.

1:44:31Like having like a really large window,

1:44:34it just looks cool.

1:44:35And it's like, oh wow, look at the size of that screen.

1:44:38I could sit very close to my TV,

1:44:40but that's just not comfortable for me.

1:44:42Like I wouldn't like that,

1:44:44but it's nice to be able to sit and relax

1:44:47and have a screen that's really large.

1:44:49It just looks cool.

1:44:51And it feels like I'm at a cinema, even though I'm not.

1:44:54- Yep.

1:44:56- If you would like to send in your questions

1:44:58for a future episode, go to upgradefeedback.com.

1:45:01It's also where you can send in your follow-up

1:45:04or any other feedback that you have about the show.

1:45:06Please go read Jason's excellent review in full

1:45:10over at sixcolors.com.

1:45:11It's definitely worth checking out.

1:45:13You can hear us both here on Relay FM,

1:45:16where we have multiple shows.

1:45:17You can also hear Jason on the incomparable.com as well.

1:45:20And if you want to check out my product work,

1:45:22go to cortexbrand.com.

1:45:24You can find us online on Mastodon.

1:45:26Jason is @jsnell on zeppelin.flights.

1:45:29I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E on mike.social.

1:45:33We're also on threads.

1:45:34I am @imike and Jason is @jsnell there as well.

1:45:37You can watch video clips of the show on TikTok

1:45:40and Instagram and full episodes and clips on YouTube.

1:45:43We are @upgraderelay on all of them.

1:45:46Thank you to our members, the supporters of Upgrade Plus.

1:45:49Thank you so much if you do.

1:45:50You get longer ad-free versions of the show

1:45:53and tons of great benefits of being a Relay FM member.

1:45:56Go to getupgradeplus.com to find out more.

1:45:59Today in Upgrade Plus,

1:46:01we're going to rank the environments in Vision Pro,

1:46:04which me and Jason are both very excited about.

1:46:06Thank you to our sponsors, Nom Nom, Delete Me, and Factor.

1:46:10But most of all, thank you for listening.

1:46:12We'll be back next time for episode 500 of Upgrade.

1:46:17Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

1:46:21- Goodbye, everybody.

1:46:22(upbeat music)

1:46:24(upbeat music)

1:46:27(upbeat music)