00:01:23 ◼ ► I don't know. And the incomparable tends to get recorded in the evening, like six or seven my time.
00:01:47 ◼ ► It's actually kind of weird. So the simple answer to the question is 9am Pacific, noon Eastern.
00:02:12 ◼ ► You have all the American collaborators, so you have to record late. That's just how it is.
00:02:17 ◼ ► If you would like to send in a question of your own to help us open a future episode of Upgrades,
00:02:42 ◼ ► Now, we are going to be talking about this a lot, I still think, over the next few months,
00:02:52 ◼ ► maybe to clarify some things we were talking about and to also add some different perspectives.
00:03:02 ◼ ► You went hard about how a 50 cent per user fee is not hard to make up for a proper business model.
00:03:15 ◼ ► but I also know there are tons of people who want to make their work 100% free on principle,
00:03:29 ◼ ► So anybody who has no business model, the way that this works is you don't accept the terms,
00:04:17 ◼ ► Again, the cost is after a million, but still, there is a real danger there for a hobby project
00:04:25 ◼ ► But don't forget the fact that you can just opt not to take the new terms and stay free
00:05:23 ◼ ► $99 if you want to submit it to the App Store, although even then I think if you're like
00:05:52 ◼ ► I doubt Apple views the $99 a year developer fee, which used to be mandatory and now you
00:06:09 ◼ ► And I was talking about, I was laughing about the idea of Apple providing refunds as like
00:06:22 ◼ ► It was fairly easy to do so on the phone and Apple approved it within 24 hours, the day
00:06:29 ◼ ► I remember how this used to be very bothersome, but it's not anymore, at least not in the
00:06:36 ◼ ► One, it 100% is a factor, like if it's easier, it's because there, but also Apple do it,
00:07:03 ◼ ► And Alexei writes in to say, "I had some thoughts on the quote, we were saying, why is the 15
00:07:16 ◼ ► The complexity of accounting, if your app is distributed in worldwide markets, is enough
00:07:23 ◼ ► So this is a good point, but Apple's not the only company that could provide this service.
00:08:02 ◼ ► And that I think is one of the big reasons that it's still a thing is just that there's
00:08:07 ◼ ► no, yes, I don't think we ever are saying like Apple doesn't do anything but pass along
00:08:12 ◼ ► Like they host everything, they do marketing, they have a whole app store marketing team,
00:08:25 ◼ ► But I do think it's very much debatable if 30% off of an in-app purchase of a game that
00:10:07 ◼ ► And when I got to the store, I came down the stairs and I saw Greg Joswiak just standing
00:10:43 ◼ ► Like it was a very nerve wracking thing for me because I didn't really know what to do.
00:10:54 ◼ ► So I was pulled through this huddle of people and I was standing there and they said to
00:11:40 ◼ ► And the, you know, and he was like, you know, and he was saying like, yeah, we're really
00:11:46 ◼ ► And I was like, this store is incredible because it looks so great and people are so excited.
00:12:32 ◼ ► But like, he was like a PowerBook product manager back when I was a very junior editor.
00:12:44 ◼ ► I have never met Tim Cook, although I have been in the scrum by Tim Cook, but you know,
00:12:58 ◼ ► It's possible that the thing that you blurted out that you don't remember was something
00:13:12 ◼ ► But also like, I don't like, you know, it's one of those things like, really what he would
00:13:49 ◼ ► I choose, whenever I fly, I choose like a show that I work through and I've been working
00:14:19 ◼ ► Because whenever I have been brought into an awkward situation where I'm talking to a senior
00:14:24 ◼ ► Apple executive, especially when it's usually around a product launch, what do you say to
00:14:38 ◼ ► Like I ran into Phil Schiller after I was at an event with Phil Schiller after WWDC one
00:20:04 ◼ ► Do you think there's any possibility that part of that is like a chilling effect of the Apple Watch?
00:32:16 ◼ ► So I wanted to kind of just say to start, like, I am finding talking about this product to be
00:32:37 ◼ ► Like I find myself wanting to do something. I'm like, oh, I'll go check this thing out.
00:33:06 ◼ ► I actually appreciate that Marques Brownlee has done multiple videos over the course of the last
00:33:11 ◼ ► week, because I feel like that is really the ultimate strategy here is that even if you had
00:33:20 ◼ ► And I feel the same way. Like I wrote a little FAQ story over the weekend, but the truth is
00:33:25 ◼ ► I'm, I've taken lots of notes and I've done a lot of thinking, but it is, it's an entire platform
00:34:04 ◼ ► You need the support of the top strap. And I am disappointed that they did not find a way
00:34:11 ◼ ► to combine the straps because at WWDC, that was what we had. It was the solo knit strap with a
00:34:19 ◼ ► top band to it as well. But that seems like the only place that that ever showed up. And I wish
00:34:24 ◼ ► that there was that option because I like the comfort and the look and the feel of the solo knit
00:34:42 ◼ ► I'm still getting used to... I haven't done a podcast with before. I'm not going to do that.
00:34:45 ◼ ► Yet. Yet. Because this is so important and I want to focus and it's sitting on my cheeks.
00:34:53 ◼ ► And it feels a little weird when I talk. I'm going to join you. We tried. We tried our best.
00:34:59 ◼ ► We'll do a special thing at the end where we have digital personas and people can find it probably
00:35:03 ◼ ► on YouTube or something and we'll figure something out. But it is... I feel like this is so important
00:35:15 ◼ ► So people who... Close followers of Upgrade. I don't know. In June, we got our demos. And that
00:35:24 ◼ ► was with a solo strap, I think with the strap coming over the top. Anyway, it hurt my face.
00:35:34 ◼ ► And then I was in a demo a couple of weeks ago with a dual strap and it didn't hurt my face. And
00:35:41 ◼ ► I reported that back last week. So I got it out of the box and I put... I had the solo strap was
00:35:49 ◼ ► on it and I put it on my face with the solo strap and it immediately started hurting my forehead.
00:35:53 ◼ ► The same way. And I was like, oh, this is how it hurt in June. You know, like I had forgotten.
00:35:58 ◼ ► I remembered that it hurt, but I had forgotten the details of it. And then the moment that I felt
00:36:01 ◼ ► that I was like, oh, this is it. So I just took it off and put on the dual strap and the dual strap
00:36:07 ◼ ► has been fine. In fact, I used it for like six total hours on Friday and probably close to that
00:36:15 ◼ ► on Saturday. It wasn't really a problem. Wasn't a problem. I just, in general, I am surprised
00:36:21 ◼ ► how long I can use this and feel comfortable compared to other headsets I've tried. And
00:36:27 ◼ ► I think what it's come down to to me is the clarity of the display. I think any problem I've
00:36:32 ◼ ► had with VR headsets in the past has been eye strain and headaches. And I think that has come
00:36:39 ◼ ► from not having clear text. And I will also say I've never used a headset with vision corrected
00:36:47 ◼ ► lenses. And for the first day I didn't have my lenses. And when I put them in the next day,
00:36:53 ◼ ► everything felt really good. But the first day wasn't a problem either, but like things are just
00:36:57 ◼ ► clear. My vision's not that bad. Um, but it was clearer and that was helpful. But I would say that
00:37:03 ◼ ► like, it's definitely more comfortable for me to use this for long stretches of time than any other
00:37:11 ◼ ► product I've tried like this before. Yeah, I think I might agree with that. It's um, they obviously
00:37:16 ◼ ► took a great deal of care with this. Um, and like I said, I just couldn't be more impressed with the
00:37:21 ◼ ► feel on the, on the dual band. The dual band really just solved it for me in a way that,
00:37:29 ◼ ► and it's not that there isn't weight there. Uh, there absolutely is. And you do sort of have to
00:37:33 ◼ ► get used to it, but I was able to settle in and, um, and use it for extended periods of time. And
00:37:40 ◼ ► it wasn't a big deal. Yeah. Every time I put it on, I'm a bit surprised by the weight and then I
00:37:46 ◼ ► get used to it. So it's like, to me, it's like every time I put it on, I'm like, oh, that is
00:37:49 ◼ ► heavier than I remember. Which kind of tells me that how I find it comfortable that over a long
00:37:54 ◼ ► period of time, I just don't even think about it anymore. Yeah. I got that, that top strap adjusted,
00:38:00 ◼ ► right? Because the top strap bearing a lot of the weight really helps get it off of my face. And I
00:38:05 ◼ ► don't mind it so much being kind of like spread out across my whole head, but when it's really
00:38:09 ◼ ► just kind of burrowing in to my face, um, you know, and the pulling from the back in order to
00:38:15 ◼ ► hold it in place, it's just not, not great. So the top strap helps a lot. I would say as well,
00:38:21 ◼ ► I've, uh, I've really come around to the look on this thing. I think it looks cool. I just think
00:38:25 ◼ ► it looks cool. I think it is a cool piece of technology, really interestingly designed.
00:38:41 ◼ ► I actually think this thing looks pretty good. I mean, for what it is, I agree. Having a quest
00:38:46 ◼ ► three, the quest three looks dumb. It looks dumber than the quest two. It's got like, so I'll say
00:38:53 ◼ ► this. There's a lot of debate about the idea of eyesight and having your little virtual eyes
00:39:01 ◼ ► peeking through and having the glowing thing on the screen on the front and all that. Worth a
00:39:05 ◼ ► conversation, but I will say this having it be dark in the front instead of it or a screen
00:39:14 ◼ ► instead of it being what meta is, which is sort of like light plastic with sensors. Like it's better.
00:39:22 ◼ ► It feels less alien and feels more like ski goggles than the meta, uh, at least the quest
00:39:29 ◼ ► three, which, so I think it is a better look. Yeah. I think like written the eyesight thing,
00:39:33 ◼ ► it does not look as good as we, as like Apple led us to believe that it was going to look,
00:39:47 ◼ ► she's tried it on and like I've seen kind of, uh, how it can look without the eyes and stuff.
00:39:52 ◼ ► I actually think it's fine. It does the job of what they're attempting to do. It isn't particularly
00:39:59 ◼ ► impressive, but I still stand by their thinking and would like to see them continue to improve it.
00:40:05 ◼ ► Like the idea that you can very easily indicate to somebody that something is on and it's working
00:40:10 ◼ ► and you're doing something and when they can see you and when you can see them, I think that there
00:40:15 ◼ ► is merit in that idea for looking at a device like this. I do think it makes sense. Just the execution
00:40:33 ◼ ► and less costly to indicate presence or absence rather than having a screen with the lenticular
00:40:48 ◼ ► can I see you? Can I not see you? And all that. Not sure you need a whole screen with a rendered
00:40:55 ◼ ► set of eyes to do that, but that'll be the debate on the inside, especially if you could save money
00:41:00 ◼ ► and cut the price. That would be a way you could do that. And the weight and exactly and the power
00:41:05 ◼ ► consumption, the whole and processing time and all of that. But we'll see. I've been seeing a lot of
00:41:11 ◼ ► conversation about the field of view, like when you've actually got the headset on, how much
00:41:15 ◼ ► you're able to see and like the fact that there is kind of this border around it. You've got the
00:41:20 ◼ ► foveated rendering, which can create some fuzziness. What is your impression and what are your feelings
00:41:25 ◼ ► about when you've got the headset on and you're using it, how it looks like just looks like a
00:41:31 ◼ ► little screen that you have in front of you. Right on the inside. Yeah. I will tell you,
00:41:36 ◼ ► I wonder if you felt this way too. My memory of June is that it was a much wider field of view
00:41:49 ◼ ► that I, thinking back, I was like remembering how amazing it was and not really having that moment
00:41:56 ◼ ► where I kind of look at the field of view and compare it to my regular vision and all that.
00:42:01 ◼ ► Although I wear glasses. So the field of view is actually quite similar to what I see through my
00:42:09 ◼ ► glasses. It's just that there's, I've got peripheral, fuzzy peripheral vision out on the
00:42:15 ◼ ► outside where I don't have that with this. So it's noticeably narrow. I think Marcus Brownlee said
00:42:23 ◼ ► that his number one thing that he would want improved on this is the field of view. And I agree.
00:42:30 ◼ ► I think that it breaks the illusion a little bit, although you get used to it. I don't think it's a
00:42:37 ◼ ► killer. I don't think it's a deal breaker, but yeah, if I were coming up with a constructive
00:42:41 ◼ ► list of things for Apple to work on for version two, finding a way to widen the field of view
00:42:47 ◼ ► would be on the list because it would be a better experience if you could see in the periphery
00:42:59 ◼ ► look at every device Apple's ever made. All we ever want them to do is make the screen bigger,
00:43:04 ◼ ► right? Like the Apple watch, the iPhone, the Mac. You always want the screen to get bigger and the
00:43:10 ◼ ► bezels to get smaller. This is the same thing. You just want the screen to get bigger and the bezels
00:43:15 ◼ ► to be smaller. Cause that's what it is right now. Like this kind of binocular like effect is
00:43:19 ◼ ► effectively the screen bezel is what it is analogous like. But to me, it doesn't bother me.
00:43:25 ◼ ► I feel like I have such a wide, like, cause the difference with this product to the others is I
00:43:33 ◼ ► can turn my head and get more screen, right? Which I can't do with other things. So yes, exactly.
00:43:39 ◼ ► The screen's there. You just, you just can't see it out of the corner of your eye. And the screen
00:43:42 ◼ ► itself is amazing. Like looking at that screen, I thought to myself, this is, this is, this is why
00:43:52 ◼ ► they, they don't have that many that they're going to be able to make this screen or screens one per
00:43:58 ◼ ► eye is so good. And I know I'm coming from like the quest two and three, but even if you look
00:44:06 ◼ ► through the cameras at the AR kind of stuff, the things around you, especially in the light that
00:44:13 ◼ ► we often live in, cause we don't live in super brightly lit places, regular people don't need
00:44:18 ◼ ► that because their eyes can see, but cameras do. So everything's a little grainy. It's just natural.
00:44:23 ◼ ► That's just sort of how it's going to work with the pass through. It's going to look a little
00:44:26 ◼ ► grainy. Anybody who's had a quest to it's like, Oh, it's in color and you can see objects and it's
00:44:31 ◼ ► not terrible. Yeah. This is all true. But my point here is that the screen is way better than that.
00:44:41 ◼ ► video in the vision pro. I'm using that app that, uh, Juno, cause you sell it. Yeah. It's really,
00:44:49 ◼ ► yeah. Christian said like, uh, which is just a YouTube player. It's nothing fancy, but it's nice
00:44:55 ◼ ► cause it's a vision pro app. Like having MKBHD up in front of me in vision pro. I was, I was looking
00:45:04 ◼ ► at his face and like his skin tone and, and totally listening to his content too, but also
00:45:12 ◼ ► just like marveling. It looked so good. And that's so that, and that was that moment. And you'll,
00:45:18 ◼ ► sometimes you look at the 3d movies and stuff and you're like, okay, but like there, we're not used
00:45:24 ◼ ► to looking at 3d movies. So sometimes the novelty of the 3d is there in the immersive videos.
00:45:29 ◼ ► Sometimes the novelty of the immersion gets you with a flat 2d YouTube video. I was able to just
00:45:35 ◼ ► sit there and appreciate this looks great. Like this, the displays are absolutely spectacular.
00:45:44 ◼ ► My moment like that was just looking at photos, not spatial ones, just like photos we have taken
00:45:51 ◼ ► on this trip. I was just flicking through them. I was like, this is the best device I have to look
00:45:56 ◼ ► at my photos on because it's massive. The colors are incredible. And I get that like dark, like it
00:46:03 ◼ ► goes dark around the, like my images that I take on my iPhone look spectacular on this device. And
00:46:10 ◼ ► like for me, it's just like, Oh, this is just an incredible way to look at the images that I've
00:46:14 ◼ ► taken. Like let alone all the things that can do with like panoramas and special, just like standard
00:46:21 ◼ ► photos. Yeah, you're right. The screens are incredible. And like similarly the clarity of text,
00:46:28 ◼ ► I don't understand how they've done it. Like, cause I, you know, we, every device I've used in
00:46:36 ◼ ► this class, text is hard to read. It is. It is so clear. It's not as clear if you're using the
00:46:45 ◼ ► Mac screen sharing, although it's usable, it's quite usable. What I would say, I mean, we'll get,
00:46:52 ◼ ► we'll talk about Mac sharing in a bit, but what I am impressed by is that on native apps and iOS
00:46:58 ◼ ► apps, iPad apps, the text is very clear. It's I'm also surprised because my initial response
00:47:05 ◼ ► to Safari back in June was that I didn't think the text was good enough. And I think that they
00:47:09 ◼ ► must've made some changes because it is good enough now, which is it's that I heard through
00:47:15 ◼ ► the grapevine, somebody who's told me that they're like, it was good to read on, on it. And I thought,
00:47:19 ◼ ► well, that can't be, but I can see it now. Like, I feel like it's unnecessary to use a Vision Pro
00:47:25 ◼ ► just to read a book or something, but you could do it. And the text would look good because the text
00:47:37 ◼ ► previously about the eye and hand tracking? One that keeps coming to me, having used the Oculus
00:47:44 ◼ ► Quest is that I have one of those, remember that iMac ad with there's no, there's no step three.
00:47:59 ◼ ► Whereas with the, with the Quest, you can't just put on the headset. You also have to pick up the
00:48:07 ◼ ► hand controllers and put them in your hands. And I know they do hand tracking. It's not very good.
00:48:20 ◼ ► given up some precision by not having controllers and that they should probably at some point support
00:48:28 ◼ ► maybe a third party precision controller for certain games or something, like I'm actually
00:48:33 ◼ ► really happy that I don't need anything but the headset to use the headset to its fullest.
00:48:41 ◼ ► Yeah. Eye tracking is the key. Like the eye and hand tracking is the key. If this is going to be
00:48:48 ◼ ► a computer, because I want to use a keyboard, I can't use a keyboard. If every time I need to
00:48:54 ◼ ► select part of the interface, I have to pick up a controller to do it. Right. Right. Because then I
00:49:00 ◼ ► can't keep working. I'm like pick up, click, put down, like, and it's different to using say a
00:49:07 ◼ ► mouse or a trackpad in that way. Like the eye tracking is I feel closer to that than trying to
00:49:14 ◼ ► like point at something and click it with a, like with a remote, you know, I, the eye and hand
00:49:20 ◼ ► tracking is fantastic. I was seeing it in using it for the time that we've used it. I mean, I've
00:49:25 ◼ ► noticed it sometimes it just doesn't work the way you want it to. I don't know why, you know, like
00:49:29 ◼ ► I'm looking at a thing and it's not doing it. And the thing right next to it is selected. Like,
00:49:35 ◼ ► come on around the edges. I especially noticed that right. Where I'm like up a little bit high
00:49:40 ◼ ► and I actually have to move my head up. Yep. Which puts it more in the center. And then the tracking
00:49:47 ◼ ► is a little more accurate and then it gets it. So there are those moments where I think, oh,
00:49:51 ◼ ► see around the edges, sometimes you end up just a little bit, like I can't get that little bit more
00:49:56 ◼ ► until I kind of lift up and then it, and then it goes to the next item and hand tracking.
00:50:04 ◼ ► Like I have that too, where sometimes I'm like, I'm sitting and I'm doing the hand gestures and
00:50:10 ◼ ► it's all working fine. And then I look to my left and I do the hand gesture and it stops working.
00:50:15 ◼ ► The reason is my hand hasn't moved, but the Vision Pro has moved and now I can't see my hand.
00:50:31 ◼ ► have your hand all the way over to the right while you're looking all the way to the left,
00:50:35 ◼ ► because it's not going to be able to pick it up and just kind of keeping that, you don't have to
00:50:38 ◼ ► have it right in front of your face, but you do need to have it somewhere where it's visible. And
00:50:42 ◼ ► I have to remind myself of that from time to time. Have you had any issues with the hardware? Like,
00:50:55 ◼ ► and I don't even know enough, I'm kind of hopeful that they will get feedback from their logs
00:51:05 ◼ ► I guess I could file out feedback about it. I don't know. The big hardware issue I've had is
00:51:10 ◼ ► Optic ID. So when I set it up the first time, it said, okay, look at this thing for Optic ID.
00:51:18 ◼ ► And then it, and it's got a little animation and it goes doodle doodle loop, doodle doodle loop.
00:51:22 ◼ ► It didn't work. Try again. Doodle doodle loop, doodle doodle loop. It didn't work like 10 times.
00:51:29 ◼ ► So I'm like, okay, I don't really want to enter a six digit passcode. I'll do that. I continued
00:51:33 ◼ ► with the thing. I ran the software update on it to go to 1.0.2 or whatever. Hilarious. We'll get to
00:51:40 ◼ ► it, but like hilarious how all of your Apple skills just translate to this thing. Open the
00:51:45 ◼ ► settings app, go to software update. Oh, there is a software update. Let's run that. Let's reboot
00:51:50 ◼ ► our face. And then we'll see what happens next. Set up Optic ID on the new version. Still didn't
00:51:57 ◼ ► do it. Eventually I like repositioned the headset and I opened my eyes and what I would describe as
00:52:12 ◼ ► a lot of times Optic ID fails for me, especially when I first put the device on. And I feel like I
00:52:20 ◼ ► then have to kind of like move it around a little bit and again, do the little glare. And eventually
00:52:25 ◼ ► I can get it to recognize me with Optic ID. But my experience with Optic ID is that it was hard
00:52:30 ◼ ► to train and not consistent. And so I'm a little frustrated by that. When you set it up the first
00:52:37 ◼ ► time, did you have your lenses? Yes. Yeah, see, because I set mine up without my lenses
00:52:49 ◼ ► you're supposed to, it's supposed to change how it does Optic ID based on your lens. Different
00:52:54 ◼ ► lenses have different Optic ID. And it was failing like time after time to actually set that up.
00:52:59 ◼ ► Then I've rebooted it and it worked. I don't know why. But yeah, I was having to, this is obviously
00:53:05 ◼ ► a very new way of them doing this stuff. And I wonder if there's like a thing with your eyes that
00:53:10 ◼ ► it's tripping up on. So my eyes are unusual and I wonder if they haven't, and this is why I don't
00:53:16 ◼ ► know what to do other than talk about it and maybe file a feedback about it. But like one of my
00:53:20 ◼ ► eyelids droops, one of my pupils is bigger than the other one most of the time. So I have unusual eye
00:53:27 ◼ ► things. And I wonder if some of my unusual eye things are what are making Optic ID go like,
00:53:33 ◼ ► Oh, I don't know. I don't know who this guy is. I don't know. I can't, or even I can't train on
00:53:38 ◼ ► this guy, which is weird. So I hope that this gets better because I would like it to be more reliable
00:53:43 ◼ ► for me. When it works, it's great. When it works, it's really nice to not do anything. And it's like,
00:53:50 ◼ ► Oh, one password needs to enter a password here. Done. You just don't do anything. Just have your
00:53:58 ◼ ► eyes with you. And I do usually. So that part is great. It's just that that initial, it's usually
00:54:04 ◼ ► when I put it on because then it's positioned kind of wrong and maybe it's pushing on my eyes
00:54:10 ◼ ► a little differently and my eyelids and whatever else. And it's getting in a weird state. And then
00:54:14 ◼ ► I have to kind of struggle with it to get it to unlock. And then usually once I get to that point,
00:54:19 ◼ ► it's good after that. Yeah. This is, um, I'm pleased that it works for you once you get it
00:54:28 ◼ ► working. Cause if it doesn't, if it didn't work, that would be really awkward. It's unfun to I type
00:54:36 ◼ ► a, uh, uh, access code every time. Yeah. Not fun. You talk about personas pretty like for a bit.
00:54:52 ◼ ► impressive and weird. Yep. And I've seen some other reviewers say the same thing, which is
00:55:17 ◼ ► it looks like me in a video game, right? Like it doesn't look like me. It looks like me
00:55:26 ◼ ► in a video game, which is still pretty cool. It's just not me. Right. And so the fact that they can
00:55:38 ◼ ► do that with like a quick scan of your face and they can build a 3d replica of you and your
00:55:44 ◼ ► clothing. Like I think it's amazing technology. It is weird. People, some people are not going to
00:55:50 ◼ ► like it. I will say it is better off than I wouldn't want to not be able to do a FaceTime
00:55:57 ◼ ► or a video call in the vision pro. I'm sure it will get better. I have some criticisms of the
00:56:04 ◼ ► policy, which is that there's no way to use sort of like an alternate character or something.
00:56:09 ◼ ► That's not you as a, like a, for people who are unhappy with their appearance to be able to not
00:56:15 ◼ ► use it. But I'm impressed with the technology. I think it'll get better. I don't love how I,
00:56:22 ◼ ► even my digital personas, I've come around to thinking they're okay. I also took like six of
00:56:31 ◼ ► them. I think you look really good. I think my latest one is the best one. Yeah. You look like
00:56:36 ◼ ► you to me, like genuinely. Like I look at him like, oh, that's Jason. That is the question
00:56:47 ◼ ► In normal conversation, the mouth of my persona does not move. It is a problem. I have no mouth
00:56:56 ◼ ► and I must scream. You do have a mouth. It just doesn't open. It's like you're talking.
00:57:00 ◼ ► Yeah. That's what it looks like. I can get the mouth to open if I open my mouth wide. And I
00:57:08 ◼ ► believed to be the case and have spoken to some people who seem to know some things who agree
00:57:13 ◼ ► beards are problems. Beards are problems. And so I submitted a feedback, which you can do. There's
00:57:24 ◼ ► actually a direct thing in the persona part settings to submit feedback about your persona.
00:57:28 ◼ ► It's a really interesting process where it asks, it shows you, this is a capture of your persona
00:57:35 ◼ ► and then it shows you a photo that the vision pro takes of you while you're doing the capture.
00:57:42 ◼ ► And it says, can we submit both of those? I said, yes. It then asks you a bunch of questions,
00:57:49 ◼ ► which are just like, and this is where I think it kind of falls down a little bit. It's like,
00:57:53 ◼ ► you just tick a bunch of boxes. Like, what do you like? What do you don't like? And it's like a
00:58:00 ◼ ► My mouth does not move. Exactly. Which I need to tell them, but it doesn't show me that in
00:58:04 ◼ ► the options. But because I know how this works, I then go to the feedback app and I can add some
00:58:09 ◼ ► more text in, which I've done. This is one of those things where they just need more data,
00:58:14 ◼ ► I expect, right? They need to see more people with more types of facial hair to allow them to
00:58:19 ◼ ► understand how to make this work. And so like, this is why this is a beta. This is how I feel
00:58:23 ◼ ► about Optic ID is the same thing actually, which is, and I mean, we can talk about it more later,
00:58:36 ◼ ► And like, you get in the corners and you run into things where you're like, well, this is just a
00:58:41 ◼ ► bug, right? Like this is obviously they, this is, they had to ship it. And like, I don't know,
00:58:46 ◼ ► maybe it's 30 years of writing about software and 40 years of using software maybe, but like,
00:58:59 ◼ ► this got left behind. This got shipped, but they know it's probably, they probably know it's broken
00:59:05 ◼ ► or this got shipped because it worked okay. And they know they need to fix it. And then people
00:59:10 ◼ ► are going to tell them how it's broken. But like, I get that vibe a lot. Not saying that it's super
00:59:14 ◼ ► buggy, but I'm saying that I get those moments where I'm in the corners of the OS and I think,
00:59:19 ◼ ► oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. Like that's just, it's a, it's a bug. It like I do, there are just things
00:59:25 ◼ ► that ha it's a new OS on a new device and like that stuff happens, even if you're working on
00:59:30 ◼ ► it for a decade, like you ship it and there's stuff in it. The persona is they even labeled
00:59:35 ◼ ► it with beta. So they're really like, yes, we know. I just, I'll go back to what I said before,
00:59:40 ◼ ► which is it would be nice if they let you have, if they built some characters that were obviously
00:59:47 ◼ ► not people, real people, but that people could inhabit. I think that that would be good because
00:59:52 ◼ ► not everybody wants to inhabit their, their particular body. And that would be a good thing
00:59:59 ◼ ► for them to do for those people. But, um, I'm sure the personas will get better and they definitely
01:00:04 ◼ ► have to solve the beard problem for sure. For sure. Um, but I will say, look, I was super low
01:00:10 ◼ ► on personas like, because in my WWDC experience, the persona I was talking to broke in a pretty
01:00:17 ◼ ► catastrophic way. I am a persona believer. Like I've had multiple FaceTime calls with people now.
01:00:34 ◼ ► simple. Like it takes a minute and it generates them in like a minute. I thought it would be like,
01:00:40 ◼ ► come back tomorrow and it will be ready for you or something. And the amount of, when I talk to
01:00:46 ◼ ► people, it's a better experience for me talking to people and the people talking to me. There's
01:00:50 ◼ ► so much expression in the faces and the expressions that the faces make look like my friends. Like,
01:00:56 ◼ ► I've had like four calls now with four different people. And like, you know, most of these calls
01:01:02 ◼ ► have lasted a little while because we're kind of just like using it. Me and you had quite a long
01:01:06 ◼ ► call. And by the end of it, it was just like me and Jason are just hanging out right now.
01:01:10 ◼ ► It really felt that way. I didn't have that same experience because your mouth didn't move.
01:01:17 ◼ ► it's your actual voice. Two, it looks like you. Three, it does have some facial expressions. Four,
01:01:23 ◼ ► you don't see yourself. You're just with the person. Five, am I up to that now? You can bring
01:01:31 ◼ ► them close and it's like a 3D window into their face, but you can also move them around. It's like
01:01:36 ◼ ► you're moving the camera when they're off to the side. You're looking off to the side. It has this
01:01:40 ◼ ► kind of a spatial skeuomorphism kind of thing going on there. I think there's a lot to be said
01:01:46 ◼ ► for it that I think we talked a lot about the uncanny valley of personas and they are viewed
01:01:52 ◼ ► out of context uncanny. In context, we kind of like leap the uncanny valley a little bit because
01:02:00 ◼ ► of all those other things I listed because you're talking, it's their voice. It looks more or less
01:02:05 ◼ ► like them. It is making real facial expressions. I'm not sure you ever think it's a video, right?
01:02:12 ◼ ► I'm sure that will happen where somebody will call a family member and they won't know that they're
01:02:17 ◼ ► using a persona. I think we're also very critical. It's like looking at Tarkin in Rogue One and
01:02:22 ◼ ► everybody who knows that that's a CGI character and that Peter Cushing died a long time ago.
01:02:27 ◼ ► You look for the flaws, but if you talk to somebody who doesn't know who Peter Cushing is and
01:02:32 ◼ ► just has a recollection of him as being in Star Wars and you see him in Rogue One, those people,
01:02:38 ◼ ► by all accounts, don't notice because they're like, "Oh yeah, it's that guy," and they just move
01:02:43 ◼ ► on. I think that there is some truth in that here too that we're kind of looking for the flaws.
01:02:47 ◼ ► There are flaws, but the added context of the conversation I think makes them, if not go away,
01:02:54 ◼ ► it certainly mitigates them. Yeah, and what I love about the persona calls is you don't see yourself
01:03:06 ◼ ► in that thought you can look however you want if you're going to have one of these calls with
01:03:29 ◼ ► like Total Party Kill, this one, right, I have to take a shower, but Total Party Kill is a good
01:03:34 ◼ ► example because we play Dungeons and Dragons, we do that on video, and it is a very gender-balanced
01:03:41 ◼ ► podcast. And when I talk to my women friends who are on that podcast, one of the things that always
01:03:49 ◼ ► comes up is the fact that, and I can basically roll out of bed and do a podcast, but socially
01:03:57 ◼ ► they have to put on makeup and make sure that their appearance is acceptable because that is how
01:04:04 ◼ ► society judges women. And this is not a podcast about society, but I will just say this. I believe
01:04:11 ◼ ► the way this works is if you dress up and primp and get a haircut and shave or put on makeup or
01:04:19 ◼ ► whatever you need to do and then make your digital persona, they look like that forever.
01:04:31 ◼ ► Yeah, I ended up putting on a t-shirt and a hoodie in my most recent one because I wanted to be like
01:04:36 ◼ ► super on-brand, but I have thought about like tuxedo persona and you can only save one, which is
01:04:43 ◼ ► another problem, right? It would be interesting if you could down the road save different ones
01:04:47 ◼ ► with different clothing or different makeup or whatever you wanted to do. But I have thought like,
01:04:52 ◼ ► "Oh, you could do a shirt and tie persona for your business call and then you don't have to wear a
01:04:57 ◼ ► shirt and tie, but it would be in your persona because my UCSD t-shirt and my navy hoodie are
01:05:04 ◼ ► in my current persona." Yeah. I realized that when I was talking to Steven and he had a Relay FM t-shirt
01:05:09 ◼ ► on, I'm like, "Hang on a minute." Because I just figured it just put you in something like what
01:05:15 ◼ ► me emoji have, right? It's just like generic t-shirt, generic sweatshirt, whatever. Yeah. Look,
01:05:22 ◼ ► I've been totally surprised by this part of the product and I'm actually pretty excited about it
01:05:29 ◼ ► and where it's going to go because as well there's that whole thing they spoke about WWDC spatial
01:05:33 ◼ ► personas. Yeah, that's the missing piece here, right? Which is they're still in a window and I
01:05:40 ◼ ► think what you ultimately want is what you and Grey have talked about on Cortex, which is
01:05:47 ◼ ► ultimately you want to be in the same room with these people you're talking to. And again, we can
01:05:53 ◼ ► talk about what the fidelity is like and they can't map your whole body and all that, so how do you
01:05:58 ◼ ► show that and do they have legs? That was a whole Facebook thing that came up, right? But the one
01:06:05 ◼ ► thing that's missing is they are spatial but they are floating in a little square and you're not
01:06:11 ◼ ► sharing a common space. And those are the two things that I when I look at this that I think are
01:06:15 ◼ ► the immediate things that need to be addressed is I need to be able to share a space with them and
01:06:23 ◼ ► not use SharePlay or iCloud to connect to a document in an app that's shared and then we
01:06:32 ◼ ► each have each other on a window. But literally like a consensual set of items that we see together
01:06:41 ◼ ► which is, you know, right? Like I want to be in the space with them looking at the same object as
01:06:48 ◼ ► them. It sounds like Zoom is working on that too, right? Yeah, well Zoom's got that weird thing
01:06:53 ◼ ► where they like they cut out your background and then put you in a painting or something like that,
01:06:58 ◼ ► right? Like they have that technology so they are working on that. You know, it's going to be Zoom,
01:07:03 ◼ ► like it's probably going to be weird but it's not bad. But like Apple should do that too because that
01:07:08 ◼ ► should be... I appreciate that clearly things like SharePlay, like all that stuff is stuff that is
01:07:14 ◼ ► laying the foundation for what they're going to be able to do with collaboration on and sharing on
01:07:19 ◼ ► this platform. But that's the thing that jumps out to me is I want to be in the same room as the
01:07:25 ◼ ► people I'm talking to if that's possible. This episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN.
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01:09:11 ◼ ► show and all of Relay FM. So there's this thing called environments which are basically full or
01:09:18 ◼ ► can be full VR worlds that you can be in. Apple has a selection, some other apps have them too.
01:09:26 ◼ ► What has been your experience of environments so far? I like them. I feel like they're contextual,
01:09:33 ◼ ► right? Like there are moments where I find my surroundings distracting and it's nice to be able
01:09:39 ◼ ► to dial that in. I also had a moment where I like dialed it in halfway. I think using the digital
01:09:43 ◼ ► crown, at the time I thought, well, this is a weird choice of the digital crown to have it be
01:09:47 ◼ ► this. And is dialing in environments, is this going to be a thing or are they going to discard
01:09:52 ◼ ► this and say, okay, we take it back, that's a dumb idea. After having used it for a few days,
01:09:55 ◼ ► I don't think it's a dumb idea. I actually think it's a really smart idea. The idea that you can
01:10:00 ◼ ► reach up physically and say, I want to drop in or out of this virtual environment. By the way,
01:10:10 ◼ ► you can short circuit this in a few ways. But I like them. I think it is funny that a bunch of
01:10:19 ◼ ► them are just coming soon. So like they shipped with a smaller number of them that they're going
01:10:23 ◼ ► to have. That is so weird to me. There are two, right? And it just says coming soon. It's like,
01:10:31 ◼ ► what is that? Why is that here? You could just not have them. Also other apps supply them.
01:10:38 ◼ ► There should probably be, and maybe this is the first time I've ever said this about VisionOS.
01:10:47 ◼ ► be an API that allows developers to supply their environments to the system. Because right now,
01:10:58 ◼ ► apps can have environments now, but they're only in those apps. And it leads to some weird
01:11:01 ◼ ► situations where like, if you want to watch a Disney movie in Avengers Tower or at the Disney+
01:11:06 ◼ ► theater, you have to go to the Disney+ app and then play. Because if you are in the TV app and
01:11:12 ◼ ► it says, oh, would you like to resume Avengers Endgame? You can click that, but it doesn't,
01:11:19 ◼ ► it just plays it in the existing environment. And so you end up in these weird things also where
01:11:23 ◼ ► like, hey, I really like the Avengers Tower and would like to work there. You can't, you can only
01:11:29 ◼ ► use it for Disney+. And I feel like you should be able to contribute to the system. And it's obvious
01:11:36 ◼ ► that they will do that. It's coming soon. But I likened it to my little FAQ piece that I wrote,
01:11:41 ◼ ► I think I mentioned this. When I write sometimes and I really need to focus, I put in headphones
01:11:47 ◼ ► and crank up music, even if I'm working by myself in my house and there's nobody else here. And I
01:11:53 ◼ ► could just put it on the speakers. I don't, I put in the headphones and it's isolating and focusing
01:11:58 ◼ ► in a strange way. Something in my brain kind of ticks at that moment. I've already had a couple
01:12:04 ◼ ► of moments where I thought, would I focus a little bit better if I dialed out my surroundings right
01:12:10 ◼ ► now and went to one of these empty spaces that is an environment? And I think maybe, I think maybe.
01:12:17 ◼ ► There were also other times where like, I'm looking at something and I'm in the, and Lauren's
01:12:20 ◼ ► in the other room and she's probably going to come in at some point and tell me that it's time to
01:12:23 ◼ ► start making dinner or whatever. And I want to see her in the doorway. So I'm not going to dial it
01:12:28 ◼ ► in. Right? Like that also is a thing that can happen. So I think they're really nice. They're
01:12:33 ◼ ► high quality. They're like have subtle animations that are really fun. And sound. I want more of
01:12:39 ◼ ► them in the ability for again, developers to build them. Yeah. Subtle sounds, but very nice sounds.
01:12:45 ◼ ► I really, I really do like them even though I only use them some of the time, but I think that's the
01:12:50 ◼ ► whole point of the Digital Crown is you only use it some of the time. I use an amount of environment
01:12:56 ◼ ► the majority of the time that I've been using it. Like I kind of dial it into about 50 or 60%. So
01:13:01 ◼ ► it's mostly just in front of me. Although you are in a hotel room, right? Yeah. It might be different
01:13:05 ◼ ► at home. Maybe. And like, so that is actually been really nice, right? We're like right now,
01:13:09 ◼ ► I kind of wish that I had the headset on because it's nicer to look out over Haleakala than to be
01:13:13 ◼ ► sitting and looking at just the television in my hotel room. Like just this blank screen.
01:13:18 ◼ ► I really like it. And I like the dialing in too, because they haven't done keyboard occlusion,
01:13:25 ◼ ► which they should do. So if you have an external keyboard, Apple should, they can, they know the
01:13:31 ◼ ► keyboards there because they detect it and put that little thing above the top. So you can see
01:13:34 ◼ ► a text entry, which is very clever, but they're not showing me the keyboard. They show my hands,
01:13:39 ◼ ► but I can't see the keyboard. So we want to see the keyboard. I kind of dial it into about 60 or
01:13:43 ◼ ► 70%, which I kind of like anyway. And then I can see my keyboard in front of me. I can look around
01:13:47 ◼ ► and see what's behind me, but in front of me is just this beautiful mountainscape. And I actually,
01:13:54 ◼ ► for window management, really like it because it just feels more natural if I have this, what looks
01:14:00 ◼ ► like an infinite space in front of me that I can just put my windows wherever I want. Like it kind
01:14:04 ◼ ► of, the mental model makes more sense for me to have these huge windows or loads of windows all
01:14:11 ◼ ► over the place in an almost infinite space. If I had looking at an infinite space, it kind of
01:14:17 ◼ ► helps me kind of lock in a bit more. I do wonder, this is a sort of separate thing, panoramas.
01:14:25 ◼ ► I have some spectacular panoramas and I know panoramas aren't immersive, right? They're not
01:14:31 ◼ ► animated. They don't have sound and all of that. I do wonder if maybe allowing users to take their
01:14:38 ◼ ► panoramas and make them in an environment might be a thing that you could do, just almost like
01:14:43 ◼ ► wallpaper. But I think generally these are going to be not commonly made because they are full
01:14:48 ◼ ► 360 renders with sound and subtle animation. They obviously take an enormous amount to make, but
01:15:00 ◼ ► so there's a Vanity Fair article that came out where Tim Cook said he watched a whole movie on
01:15:03 ◼ ► the ceiling while laying in bed. Somebody asked me if you could do that, and so I did it. I opened
01:15:11 ◼ ► the Disney+ app and I put Moana on the ceiling and I was watching that. I was in Joshua Tree,
01:15:19 ◼ ► I wasn't using one of the Disney+ spaces, and I dialed in Joshua Tree. Since I was looking up,
01:15:25 ◼ ► it was just blue sky with clouds. Mike, I almost turned off the movie and just looked at the blue
01:15:35 ◼ ► sky with clouds because I was like, "Oh, that's so nice. It's just pleasant." That's the point,
01:15:40 ◼ ► right? Whether you're blocking out the outside world, and Apple philosophically doesn't want
01:15:45 ◼ ► this device to be something that completely blocks out the outside world, but if you're going to do
01:15:49 ◼ ► it, there needs to be a purpose. It's sort of like to block out distractions and to relax you or make
01:15:55 ◼ ► you focus. I think they're really good. I want more of them. It's saying coming soon. I guess
01:16:02 ◼ ► that's a promise for more of them, but it does seem a little bit weird. It's also not just these VR
01:16:09 ◼ ► landscapes either. There are a set of them that just color your room with different types of light.
01:16:14 ◼ ► You're just looking through the pass-through, but I think it's like a morning light and a summer
01:16:22 ◼ ► light. It also changes the sound that comes through the ear pods. There's a name. Sound
01:16:30 ◼ ► pods. There's a wintry one where you hear a crackling of a fire. They're also nice because
01:16:39 ◼ ► it's like, imagine you want still to have the signal to you of like, "Oh, I write in the morning
01:16:45 ◼ ► light," or whatever, and it gets you in, like you're saying, with music, but you're still seeing
01:16:48 ◼ ► everything. You don't have to be locked off to the world. I like that balance, but yes, I want more
01:16:52 ◼ ► of them, and I want to be able to have third-party ones too that are available for me. I want to
01:16:58 ◼ ► record a podcast sitting in Avengers Tower. I want to do that. Let me do that. I want to do that.
01:17:04 ◼ ► Yeah, I agree. I agree. Right now, that's also probably a coming soon, but it feels like it's a...
01:17:10 ◼ ► And then you get the benefit of being... I assume, depending on how they want to do that,
01:17:15 ◼ ► it's like if you're a Disney+ person, you get to be in this environment. That's a benefit of having
01:17:21 ◼ ► Disney+, is that you get those environments. I like that. I think that's a fun idea. It's
01:17:26 ◼ ► branding for Disney and also the idea that like, "Oh yeah, I just work on the scare floor now.
01:17:32 ◼ ► That's what I do. That's great. Let's do that." That scare floor one is great too. If you look
01:17:38 ◼ ► up, you can see dust particles floating in a cycle. You really went all out on these. They're
01:17:43 ◼ ► amazing. This is a computer. This is spatial computing. What is your computing experience
01:17:51 ◼ ► being like? Away from the novelty of it, like doing work in VisionOS. What has that been like for you?
01:18:13 ◼ ► It feels like an iPad on your face. Yeah, okay. But think of it this way. An iPad where everywhere
01:18:23 ◼ ► is screen everywhere around you and you can place windows anywhere you want. Because the iPad has
01:18:34 ◼ ► fought this, right? This is one of the unique things about the Vision Pro is actually for tech
01:18:40 ◼ ► nerds anyway. It's the first completely arbitrary multi-window placement device that Apple has made
01:18:48 ◼ ► since the Mac. All of the work on iPhone and then iPad about like simplify one app at a time,
01:18:56 ◼ ► maybe two apps at a time, maybe you could go into a special windowing mode, but it's limited and
01:19:00 ◼ ► it's got all these things. This one's like, "No, want more windows? Great. Put them wherever you
01:19:05 ◼ ► want. Stack them in front of each other. You have to stand up to find that other window because it's
01:19:10 ◼ ► behind the other one. We don't care. Go ahead. Do it." There's no expose for it. There probably
01:19:18 ◼ ► Although if you look at the close box on a window and you hold, it actually lets you hide all the
01:19:25 ◼ ► other apps, which is that's actually good sometimes. But it feels very iPadOS. The iPad
01:19:32 ◼ ► apps feel actually not that far from being at home in this environment. They're fine to use.
01:19:37 ◼ ► They don't feel broken not being full Vision OS apps. I think that's because Vision OS is adding
01:19:42 ◼ ► some effects and some extra things you can do with 3D and with translucency and things like that.
01:19:53 ◼ ► if you're comfortable on an iPad, Vision OS is like all the iPads you could want in one place at
01:20:01 ◼ ► one time. I got that moment of like, "Oh yeah, spatial computing. I see what you mean now."
01:20:10 ◼ ► Because that's kind of what it is. It's like a spatial iPad. I mean that in a good way. I like
01:20:14 ◼ ► the iPad. My iPad is limited, but I like that. Then you can also do the thing where you connect
01:20:18 ◼ ► to a Mac and then have all the other app windows around you. Then you've got both going on.
01:20:28 ◼ ► For me, yeah, I feel like spatial computing, I get why they have talked about it in those terms,
01:20:37 ◼ ► but it's iPad windows more than it is Mac windows. There's no spatial mode when you connect to a Mac
01:20:43 ◼ ► where you can take individual windows on the Mac and play some places. They just go on a 2D plane
01:20:54 ◼ ► I like the feeling of setting up my workspace. Like, "Alright, I'm going to open this. I'm going
01:20:59 ◼ ► to put it over here. I'm going to put that right up there." I like that feeling of grabbing
01:21:04 ◼ ► and moving these windows around me. There is a physicality to doing it. It feels good. I like
01:21:11 ◼ ► that. The window persistence is really great too. You've used it, you take it off, you put it back
01:21:16 ◼ ► on, your windows are back. The problem is when you have to reboot the device, they will go away.
01:21:26 ◼ ► Not necessarily if you can keep it plugged in or whatever and not totally power it down.
01:21:32 ◼ ► But if you reboot it, they've got to fix that. That's high on the list of things to fix.
01:21:46 ◼ ► it just forgets where everything goes. But if you do it regularly, it remembers the windows
01:22:04 ◼ ► whole platform. I think the platform isn't very good at text input. I think that adding a keyboard
01:22:11 ◼ ► or a keyboard and a trackpad or universal control, which we can talk about in a minute,
01:22:15 ◼ ► I think that helps a lot making this thing navigable. Especially even just adding a keyboard.
01:22:25 ◼ ► the floating, like eye typing or finger typing on a virtual keyboard is doable, but it's not good.
01:22:33 ◼ ► I would say there are also bugs. If you have a Bluetooth keyboard attached, it works really well.
01:22:41 ◼ ► But in many contexts, it still puts up that floating keyboard and it occludes your content.
01:22:48 ◼ ► It floats right in front of your face. This feels like one of those things that's going to be fixed
01:22:59 ◼ ► suddenly another window appears. It's like Clippy. Another window appears in front of it and goes,
01:23:09 ◼ ► "You want another one? Let's fill the screen with keyboards." And it's right in your field.
01:23:15 ◼ ► It's in your view. I know they want it to be where you can type on it, but it's also blocking
01:23:19 ◼ ► the thing I want to type. I find that very frustrating. Again, I know that they're trying
01:23:26 ◼ ► to come up with the answer to how do you input text when you don't have another means. I don't
01:23:31 ◼ ► think it's great. I think it's also really confusing because you have this proxy keyboard
01:23:36 ◼ ► and it's got a dictation icon on it. What happens is when you dictate, it dictates into the proxy
01:23:50 ◼ ► which you may not be able to see. I had several instances where I was trying to dictate something
01:23:54 ◼ ► into messages and was frustrated that it wasn't working. Then I realized I was actually dictating
01:24:00 ◼ ► into messages via the proxy keyboard, but I couldn't see it because it covered the text
01:24:05 ◼ ► of your window of messages. What are you doing? Also, if you want to edit that text, it's so hard.
01:24:10 ◼ ► It's so hard. Basically, all of the means of text entry that are contained within VisionOS itself
01:24:20 ◼ ► are for simple things only. If you want to do any kind of text entry, you need a keyboard.
01:24:28 ◼ ► You either always need to use a Mac and use a universal control or you need a keyboard.
01:24:40 ◼ ► which bothers me. I don't know what it would do, but it bothers me that it doesn't do command-tab.
01:25:17 ◼ ► Yeah, I haven't had that experience. I love that Spotlight exists there, but I agree with you.
01:25:27 ◼ ► there's got to be a way to do a voice-driven text input. I know you don't always want to
01:25:31 ◼ ► use your voice. You're in a public place or whatever. Yes, I think Bluetooth keyboard is
01:25:41 ◼ ► It recognizes your keyboard and puts a floater that's attached to the top of the keyboard so
01:25:47 ◼ ► that if you're typing and not looking at where you're typing because you're not a touch typist
01:25:51 ◼ ► and you're looking down, it will show you what you're typing. That one is really brilliant and
01:26:01 ◼ ► That's where the passwords exist too. It's the QuickType bar. If you're using a keyboard
01:26:08 ◼ ► and you want to enter a password, that little guy is floating there and you can just look at it.
01:26:12 ◼ ► It's really good, but there are tweaks. There are bugs. The fact that the software keyboard
01:26:21 ◼ ► just keeps popping up and it seems to always be where you don't want it, which is very funny.
01:26:33 ◼ ► incredible for, just use the on-screen keyboard. If you are looking to do any kind of work,
01:26:44 ◼ ► The thing is it works really well. That's the thing. Other than the text input getting in the
01:26:48 ◼ ► way sometimes, depending on what you want to do, if all you have with you is Vision Pro and
01:26:56 ◼ ► a Bluetooth keyboard, you can go a long way. It's like using an iPad. That's what you're doing at
01:27:04 ◼ ► that point. In space! I was meant to bring a trackpad with me and I forgot to bring my trackpad,
01:27:11 ◼ ► but I have my Mac. I would say that using the trackpad is good, but it's also just a keyboard
01:27:16 ◼ ► and eye tracking work great together. It's a very cool combo actually. I look where I want to type
01:27:26 ◼ ► and start typing, I look at another window and it follows you around. That is really cool. That
01:27:33 ◼ ► the combination of eye tracking and a physical keyboard is pretty sick. I'm digging it.
01:27:40 ◼ ► I found myself doing a lot of like, I'm typing, I'm typing, and then I need to use a mouse gesture
01:27:46 ◼ ► basically. Instead I go look, tap, move, slide, whatever, and then I'm back to typing. It's
01:27:53 ◼ ► different but it's natural. You're using those gaze and hand movement gestures as your trackpad
01:28:00 ◼ ► or mouse, but you're still using the keyboard as the keyboard. We didn't even really talk about
01:28:05 ◼ ► the gestures. I've been getting on with them pretty fine. I'm still learning some and trying
01:28:11 ◼ ► to work out how much of a gesture do I need to do for scrolling and stuff like that. I've found it
01:28:17 ◼ ► to be something I've gotten used to very quickly. The look and pinch, look and pinch, look and
01:28:22 ◼ ► double tap, long press. As you say, these things, you're really just taking a thing you already know
01:28:28 ◼ ► and translating it to a different gesture in a way. Somebody asked me if it was fatiguing.
01:28:41 ◼ ► I think you're probably less likely to get RSI from them. I think it's fatiguing at first because
01:28:47 ◼ ► you over act it. When you first use it, you're like, "Your arms are all over this." Come on,
01:28:53 ◼ ► we're going to scroll here. But the more you get used to it, the more comfortable it starts to feel
01:29:00 ◼ ► as it becomes more natural. You're a little more subtle gesture. That's the same with your eyes
01:29:09 ◼ ► Steering daggers at every icon everywhere. You're like, "I got you now." You got to get away from me.
01:29:14 ◼ ► I don't need to do that. Just glance. Obviously, we're Mac users and this has a very cool
01:29:21 ◼ ► integration with the Mac where you can bring a Mac into the Vision Pro and use the Mac, use the Mac's
01:29:29 ◼ ► keyboard and trackpad, use continuity and universal control, which I'm so thrilled that they added to
01:29:36 ◼ ► this device because I didn't know they were going to do it. It feels very much to me like one of
01:29:40 ◼ ► those reveals of like, "Oh, this is why universal control exists." I reckon, I'm just going to guess
01:29:49 ◼ ► we have very different experiences right now because I am currently on a 13-inch MacBook Air
01:29:54 ◼ ► in a hotel room. So the idea of being able to get a 30-inch screen for my Mac where I can actually
01:30:01 ◼ ► do my window management how I like has been very cool and very appealing to me. I did the thing
01:30:07 ◼ ► where I took the screen of a Mac attached to a... And it works with any Mac that's running...
01:30:15 ◼ ► Maybe it has to be Apple Silicon, but it's running Sonoma desktop, laptop. There's this weird thing
01:30:21 ◼ ► going around where people are like, "Oh, it doesn't work with desktops." It's not true.
01:30:24 ◼ ► I was just using it with my Mac Studio. But I did the thing where I connected and I resized the
01:30:30 ◼ ► window and I had it be exactly where my monitor was, but using the window. And you don't want to
01:30:36 ◼ ► do that. If all you're doing is using a Mac and you've got a 27-inch Retina Studio display,
01:30:41 ◼ ► you're fine. Just use the real display at that point. However, there are lots of scenarios where
01:30:48 ◼ ► you don't have or are not with your nice monitor. And you gave that perfect example. I did a bunch
01:30:55 ◼ ► of Mac work this weekend with my MacBook Air in my lap, but a giant screen that I actually positioned
01:31:03 ◼ ► sort of right where the MacBook Air screen was. So it was like MacBook Air keyboard and then giant
01:31:08 ◼ ► screen comes out of the top of the MacBook Air. And that is really nice. And then of course,
01:31:13 ◼ ► you can also add stuff to the sides and have a whole kind of experience happening inside the
01:31:18 ◼ ► Vision Pro separate. And the latency is low and it's a pretty good experience using a Mac.
01:31:25 ◼ ► - I mean, honestly, to me, I don't feel like there is any latency. The only thing is just the
01:31:31 ◼ ► crispness of the text. And I've been just been doing some things to mitigate that. So like I was
01:31:36 ◼ ► doing some work in Google Docs. I just increased the zoom level of Google Docs and it was great.
01:31:46 ◼ ► - Yeah, 'cause it's not as clear as it is if it's a native app, but it's still pretty good.
01:31:54 ◼ ► And there are so many scenarios where it's better than the Mac experience that you would otherwise
01:32:00 ◼ ► have. And so that's pretty great. And then universal control, it is mind blowing to have
01:32:09 ◼ ► that moment where you've got an app, a Vision OS app off to the left and your Mac screen is in
01:32:14 ◼ ► front of you and you move the track pad on your Mac and the cursor flies off the edge of the Mac
01:32:20 ◼ ► and pops as a little iPad cursor onto the Vision OS app and behaves just as an iPad app when you're
01:32:28 ◼ ► attached to a Magic Keyboard would work. And you can do that in a 3D space. It never floats in
01:32:32 ◼ ► space. It pops to the window you're headed for, essentially. I did have some bugs. I had a moment,
01:32:39 ◼ ► I had to reboot basically. I had a moment where I couldn't see the pointer anymore. I could see what
01:32:43 ◼ ► was highlighting that happened at one point. A reboot fixed it. And that was one of those
01:32:51 ◼ ► Like you can just be in the Mac and then you go over there and look at Notes and move the track
01:32:57 ◼ ► pad and it's there. I genuinely cannot get my head around how they've made that work. There is a
01:33:06 ◼ ► thing to me where it's like, if I have a Mac and an iPad, these are two physical things in the world,
01:33:10 ◼ ► they can be maybe aware of where each other are. They're doing whatever they're doing. But the idea
01:33:15 ◼ ► that I have a Mac in front of me and I can take the screen and put it on the right and then go
01:33:20 ◼ ► left and I'm on the Notes window on the left, it is absolutely mind-bending to me. It's like magic.
01:33:26 ◼ ► It is like actual magic. I cannot work out how they're able to do that. It is really, really,
01:33:33 ◼ ► really cool. But not just cool, really useful. Like you have this kind of like Macintosh escape hatch
01:33:41 ◼ ► for all the things that Vision OS can't do. I just have this window. It's right there. And you know
01:33:45 ◼ ► what? I need a keyboard anyway. And I have that. So I got my keyboard. Truly bravo to whoever it was
01:33:54 ◼ ► who had to fight really hard to get this to be the thing that it can do because it immediately
01:34:00 ◼ ► elevates this product to being able to be usable by more people to get their work done. Because you
01:34:06 ◼ ► can have an environment where you have whatever app it is in your Mac that you need open and then
01:34:12 ◼ ► surround it with native Vision OS apps. And you now have eight monitors that you're getting your
01:34:18 ◼ ► work done with in this one little package. It's really cool. It's really cool. So my tech issue
01:34:27 ◼ ► here is that I saw the connect button one time. It's very flaky for me too. So generally what
01:34:36 ◼ ► happens and when it happened that was awesome because it's also a kind of one of these cool
01:34:42 ◼ ► AR tricks where it's floating right over your laptop. It's detected where your laptop is.
01:34:46 ◼ ► It sees it. It knows it can connect to it. But that only happened to me one time. I've had times
01:34:52 ◼ ► where it hasn't listed the Mac that's literally in my lap. All the settings are right. It used to
01:34:57 ◼ ► connect. Now it doesn't. I've rebooted things and eventually it comes back. But the good news is you
01:35:03 ◼ ► can use Control Center which you get to by looking up and a little firefly appears that expands into
01:35:11 ◼ ► Control Center and you tap on it and it opens. And there's a connect to a Mac button in Control
01:35:16 ◼ ► Center and it shows all the Macs that are nearby that you can connect to. And that has worked
01:35:20 ◼ ► much more reliably. Although again I've had moments where my MacBook Air just doesn't show
01:35:26 ◼ ► up and it's sitting in my lap and I don't know what that is. It feels very of a kind with some
01:35:32 ◼ ► of Apple's other continuity features that sometimes are a little flaky. It's like, "Oh, why is this
01:35:38 ◼ ► shared clipboard not working?" And the answer is, "I don't know. I guess there's a reason." But when
01:35:48 ◼ ► if you've got a Mac that doesn't have input devices on it, you can't really drive your Mac
01:35:54 ◼ ► with your eyes. So it really is for laptops or for desktops that have keyboards and trackpads
01:36:01 ◼ ► attached. It's not a VNC client. You really want to be right there with it. But it works really
01:36:08 ◼ ► great. I'm really excited about it. I would say I've had to do the Control Center trick a bunch
01:36:15 ◼ ► of times too, but it actually just works really easily. I never have that part fail. I'm happy
01:36:21 ◼ ► that they did that. I don't know why they put that in there, but I feel like they know it doesn't
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01:38:34 ◼ ► you mentioned Moana already, but what has been your media experience like in the Vision Pro?
01:38:39 ◼ ► Clouds. Let's start with the immersive videos, right? So Apple has offered, they're a series,
01:38:46 ◼ ► like this first episode's a various series of these things. So they're short, but there are
01:38:51 ◼ ► these immersive videos. We've seen, there's the real, actually, if you go to search and
01:39:00 ◼ ► available too. That's got a bunch of stuff that is not currently in the store. That's where the
01:39:05 ◼ ► soccer goal and the baseball play is. Like what we saw. It's actually the version that I saw.
01:39:13 ◼ ► It's a little different from what we saw in June. It's the version I saw a couple of weeks ago.
01:39:16 ◼ ► They've changed some of it, but very similar. And so they've rolled those out and those are like 180
01:39:22 ◼ ► degree-ish, 3D immersive scenes. And so this is the woman who puts the lines across the, you know,
01:39:32 ◼ ► in the fjord with like hundreds of feet below her. And then she walks across it. And the, the,
01:39:37 ◼ ► it's, it's very impressive. Or it's Alicia Keys singing to you. That one's really interesting.
01:39:50 ◼ ► yeah, all your social cues are like, why me? No, no, Alicia, not me. But that's got, that's,
01:39:55 ◼ ► that's seen as three cameras and you can actually see there are these little white kiosks in the
01:40:00 ◼ ► room. And one of them is cropped out at one point, but then they switch to the other view and you're
01:40:05 ◼ ► like, oh, there, that's what my previous view was. And there are three of them. So you can see that
01:40:10 ◼ ► they, for that one, at least they built a little thing to capture this. Also with the prodding of
01:40:17 ◼ ► Will Carroll, the sports writer, I did figure out the, what baseball game that one shot is from in
01:40:21 ◼ ► the, in the demo reel. It's an Apple TV plus game. What a surprise that they were, Apple was already
01:40:27 ◼ ► there when they captured that. So those things, which is apparently this proprietary capture
01:40:32 ◼ ► technology that Apple has built, they are so impressive. Like the rhinos are amazing. The
01:40:40 ◼ ► woman who is out over the fjord is amazing. Like the dinosaur stuff was cool. Although again,
01:40:48 ◼ ► a completely CGI capture is not as impressive to me as something that is from the real world,
01:40:54 ◼ ► but still very impressive. The Alicia Keys thing is, is you're just a fly on the wall, except when
01:41:00 ◼ ► she's looking at you. And that's a little disturbing. I, so those are amazing, right? And
01:41:05 ◼ ► those are the fully immersive, like this is not something you could go to a movie theater and see.
01:41:10 ◼ ► It's like you're in the room. Um, I found those pretty incredible. What did you think of those?
01:41:15 ◼ ► I haven't done many of them yet. I only, I just played around with, uh, encounter dinosaurs again,
01:41:22 ◼ ► cause that one was fun. Which is interactive. So it's not actually a video. It's, it's a little
01:41:31 ◼ ► encounter dinosaurs when she was in guest mode. And that was amazing to watch her, like react to
01:41:36 ◼ ► the dinosaur coming in and all that. I think that's very impressive. I think that's the demo.
01:41:42 ◼ ► That's why it's there. Yeah. It's fun. That's why they broke that one out as an app. Right. Like
01:41:46 ◼ ► it's, yeah. It's, it's meant to be experienced. Yeah. Cause it's cause it is interactive. It has
01:41:51 ◼ ► to be an app, but, um, but it is immersive. So yeah, anyway, I think the immersive videos are
01:41:56 ◼ ► great. I think my question is what's going to get shot in this format. Did you see, uh, Tim Cook and,
01:42:04 ◼ ► and, uh, the NBA commissioners Nate silver. Is that his name? No, that's Adam silver. Nate silver
01:42:10 ◼ ► is a different guy. Nate silver is the, is the five 38 guy. Close. Yeah. Close. Uh, they were together
01:42:18 ◼ ► a couple of days ago and we're kind of talking about like, yes, this is the thing we're going
01:42:23 ◼ ► to work on this and you know, it seems like that's the thing. NBA has a NBA has an app that, um,
01:42:31 ◼ ► you know, where you can see you're going to have multiple games. It's, it's definitely like the
01:42:34 ◼ ► quad box gone completely wild. But, um, uh, but yeah, that is my open question about immersive
01:42:42 ◼ ► is can you do, I mean, I'm sure you could do immersive highlights. Can you do immersive live
01:42:49 ◼ ► or is it just too much data? And I don't know in the future. Sure. Right. Like it feels like
01:42:55 ◼ ► something you can get to, but yeah, maybe you have to wait a day and then you can watch the basketball
01:43:00 ◼ ► game using that and maybe that will be worth it for some people. That was when I got HDTV for the
01:43:06 ◼ ► first time. Um, it was so early in HDTV that they had HD from the Olympics, but you got the, you got
01:43:12 ◼ ► it the next day, which is, I thought was really funny. They're like, well, you gotta wait. So yeah,
01:43:17 ◼ ► maybe, or it'll be highlights or something like that. But still, I would think that they're going
01:43:20 ◼ ► to be doing a lot of experimentation with that probably with MLS and major league baseball and
01:43:26 ◼ ► the NBA. Um, these are all good partners for Apple and, uh, and there are also some media partners
01:43:34 ◼ ► like ma there's a max app and max is a media partner of the NBA. So you can see that there
01:43:39 ◼ ► are scenarios where these different groups come together. And of course, Disney is ESPN. So there
01:43:44 ◼ ► are a lot of Apple partners on vision pro that are also, uh, rights holders. Plus the leagues are
01:43:51 ◼ ► interested in there's an MLB and NBA app on there on day one, the MLB app, by the way, right now,
01:43:56 ◼ ► what it does is it plays you the ninth inning of game one of the world series last year.
01:44:01 ◼ ► But in addition to the video, you've got like a 3d space where the pitches go. So you can see where
01:44:06 ◼ ► the pitches were, or you can switch to a 3d space of the field and you can see where all the fielders
01:44:11 ◼ ► are as they move sync to the video. It's a, it's a debt. I haven't tried it yet, but I've downloaded
01:44:16 ◼ ► the PGA app because they've got some like some previous, um, golf games matches, some golf, golf
01:44:24 ◼ ► stuff where you can watch the, where the shots go on a map, like a 3d map. As you're watching the
01:44:32 ◼ ► game, like a thousand people have sent me that F1 concept. Right. And I think that that kind of
01:44:37 ◼ ► thing could happen in the future because F1 is also a very data rich sport. So you could have
01:44:42 ◼ ► like a live 3d map of the cars going round and watch. Like, I think that is actually the, really
01:44:46 ◼ ► the way to consume a lot of sports is like, not necessarily like you could do the immersive thing,
01:44:51 ◼ ► but there's also this other thing of like using the data that you have about the game as it's
01:44:55 ◼ ► being played to give cool ancillary content that is really interesting to help you like
01:45:01 ◼ ► further your experience of watching the game and be like, right. A active participant in it without
01:45:07 ◼ ► moving your head left and right to watch where the ball's going or whatever. Like there are two
01:45:11 ◼ ► different ways to do this. And it's interesting to see how these are going to roll out, but I've,
01:45:15 ◼ ► I've watched some 3d movies and a bunch of stuff in the Disney stuff. I haven't watched anything in
01:45:19 ◼ ► full, but I've watched lots of clips. It's so good. It's so good. Like I've never seen 3d look
01:45:25 ◼ ► this good because the color is bright. And also the spatial audio I was watching what I did first
01:45:32 ◼ ► as I went to the Disney plus app, sat down in Avengers tower freaked out because I could not
01:45:38 ◼ ► believe it. It was so good looking around and seeing all the little Easter eggs. Then I put the
01:45:43 ◼ ► climactic fight scene of Avengers end game is what I wanted to watch. And so I watched that scene
01:45:49 ◼ ► in 3d with spatial audio on this huge screen at night. It's funny. I'm in New York and looking at
01:45:57 ◼ ► New York, right. Which is also kind of funny, but yeah, that, that experience is so, so good. And
01:46:03 ◼ ► like my plan is I haven't had the time yet. I'm probably going to wait till I'm home now.
01:46:07 ◼ ► I'm going to watch Avatar in it. Like I've wanted to do that. Apparently it's really good. I'm
01:46:11 ◼ ► going to watch Avatar in it. Yeah. I agree. Um, for those who don't know the way 3d movies are
01:46:17 ◼ ► projected in movie theaters is, uh, they're, they have to project two images, which means that you
01:46:22 ◼ ► lose half the light. Yeah. And so they're often very dim. Yep. Very dim. And, and you have to
01:46:28 ◼ ► wear, you know, the 3d glasses, glasses, right? Right. So this is a superior experience because
01:46:44 ◼ ► And, uh, it's a good display. So they look really good in a way. I don't love 3d movies as a
01:46:50 ◼ ► concept, but I like them a whole lot more in this context. And even on, even on the quest, I would
01:46:55 ◼ ► watch 3d movies that I would like rip from a Blu-ray because it was interesting, but also
01:47:01 ◼ ► it was not a bad experience and it's way better on this. So I, I think it's going to be interesting
01:47:06 ◼ ► to see. There's a lot of 3d content out there. It's mostly movies because there are 3d versions
01:47:12 ◼ ► of movies in theaters. They're never turned into home video anymore. Right. Cause 3d TVs didn't
01:47:18 ◼ ► work. I would imagine that everybody's going to dust off all their 3d content and make it
01:47:22 ◼ ► available. I think the questions are what's available for rent or purchase in the TV app.
01:47:30 ◼ ► What's available on, uh, on apps. So Disney's got 3d content. Now the max app doesn't have 3d
01:47:36 ◼ ► content, but Warner, Warner has lots of 3d movies that they could put in max if they wanted to.
01:47:47 ◼ ► which is interesting. And I don't know what form resolving it will take, but if I go into
01:47:54 ◼ ► my library and the TV app and show 3d, it shows me like nine movies that I bought that are in 3d
01:48:01 ◼ ► and I play them and they're in 3d and it asks you, it says, do you want to play this in 2d or 3d?
01:48:06 ◼ ► Yeah. Which is nice. If I go into their store where they list everything they've got in 3d,
01:48:19 ◼ ► but they're not in my list of library 3d movies. So like into the spider verse. So I tap on into
01:48:27 ◼ ► the spider verse and it brings it up and it says, well, you own this. Do you want to watch it in 3d?
01:48:32 ◼ ► And I say, yes, there's actually even a, a tile plan 2d plan 3d. I tap play in 3d and it plays it
01:48:39 ◼ ► in 2d. I can't decide whether this is a technical issue or if Sony hasn't licensed existing purchasers
01:48:53 ◼ ► of, into the spider verse on apple TV to get access to the 3d version. But also it's not
01:49:02 ◼ ► possible for me to buy the 3d version because I already own it. I'm sure it'll get resolved either.
01:49:10 ◼ ► Either it'll show up or Sony will ask me to pay more money to upgrade it to 3d inside the TV app.
01:49:16 ◼ ► I don't know what it's going to be. It's a bummer because that's a really great movie in 3d,
01:49:25 ◼ ► but it's extra beautiful in 3d. It's one of, one of those kind of like really good movies
01:49:28 ◼ ► to watch in 3d. So they've got, they've got a story issue there where there are movies that
01:49:33 ◼ ► are marked as 3d, but you don't, they don't show up in your library as 3d and you don't have access
01:49:37 ◼ ► to them as 3d. So that's kind of a bummer. But there's still a bunch of 3d content and I hope
01:49:43 ◼ ► there's more. And it makes me want apple to at the very least start shooting some of their TV shows
01:49:49 ◼ ► in 3d. But I don't know if they'll do that. Cause it does cost to do a 3d conversion costs. Even if
01:49:55 ◼ ► you don't shoot it in 3d to convert it. It does make me wonder if they're going to go back and
01:49:59 ◼ ► like convert Ted Lasso to 3d or something like that. I don't know. They could do it. It's all a
01:50:05 ◼ ► post-production conversion. They could do it if they want to do, that would be weird. More likely
01:50:11 ◼ ► they're going to have like an, they're going to like work with Sony and license it and whatever
01:50:19 ◼ ► or the field. Well, I want to watch for all mankind sitting in Jonestown instead of just being on the
01:50:25 ◼ ► moon, which is a little more sterile be right there saying hi, Bob. So, so all that's good. Um,
01:50:32 ◼ ► and the, and I'm, I'm curious about them. I have a note about speaking of the quad box and the
01:50:37 ◼ ► multi box and the Infini box, uh, that's possible with this. One of the issues is I said it was
01:50:44 ◼ ► basically iPadOS as we know iOS and iPadOS really don't want to play more than one thing at the
01:50:54 ◼ ► even if you're multitasking. So I tested this out a little bit on visionOS and with two
01:51:19 ◼ ► That's in the app. I was able to get two native visionOS apps to play video in different places
01:51:26 ◼ ► at the same time. I was like, yes, that's cool. Right? Cause that's a thing you can't do on the
01:51:29 ◼ ► iPad. However, if I used the Fubo app, which is an iPad app running in visionOS, it stopped
01:51:38 ◼ ► other video or stopped itself. So there's still some stuff to be worked out, but the dream is
01:51:45 ◼ ► alive. Right? And this is the thing that I really want to see. Yeah, that's, it's there. Right.
01:51:50 ◼ ► Cause the fun, that's the hardest thing is to get the fundamental thing to work. Right. So what,
01:51:55 ◼ ► what we need is the ability to have multiple video players playing simultaneously in a space
01:52:02 ◼ ► because, and separate from that, when you generate, if you're a video app on an unvisionOS,
01:52:09 ◼ ► you need to be able to support multiple windows as well. Right. You shouldn't be locked into one.
01:52:15 ◼ ► So if I want, if I'm in the max app, let's say, and I want to put up CNN in one window and a live
01:52:24 ◼ ► NBA game from bleacher report in another window, both in the max app, I should be able to do that.
01:52:31 ◼ ► And then if I want to add an MLS match from the TV app, and I don't want to be immersive, I just want
01:52:37 ◼ ► to show me the soccer match. I should be able to open that out and have three of them running.
01:52:43 ◼ ► I really should be able to open even more. I know that at some point the processor will yell at me,
01:53:03 ◼ ► Has it been a concern or a problem for you? - I've been mostly tethered. So it hasn't been at
01:53:17 ◼ ► where am I going to put the battery in a pocket next to me? If you put it next to you and you
01:53:22 ◼ ► stand up, then like, Oh no, the battery has to come with me. Um, there's, there's a learning
01:53:31 ◼ ► obviously in the long run, you don't want to have the external battery. That's just where we are now.
01:53:35 ◼ ► Um, but I did leave it unplugged at one point and I got the little chime, the little sad chime that
01:53:43 ◼ ► comes from AirPods that said, Oh, you're a 20% or whatever. I was like, Oh, okay, I'll plug it in.
01:53:49 ◼ ► I haven't tested the battery life in terms of like timing it. I've just been trying to test
01:53:53 ◼ ► the interface. It's yeah, I think, I think it gives you enough time to spend a couple of hours
01:53:59 ◼ ► if you're completely untouched. I will say that in most contexts these days, you actually have a
01:54:06 ◼ ► place to plug in a USB device, uh, like on airplanes and in cars and you know, whatever else,
01:54:13 ◼ ► wherever else you might be in the backseat, of course. Um, but, but yeah, it seems fine to me
01:54:20 ◼ ► other than just being awkward. Yeah. I, it hasn't, the battery, the battery is not a problem.
01:54:27 ◼ ► Like just having the physical thing for me. Cause I'm like stationary when I'm using a device. So
01:54:31 ◼ ► I'm getting up and walking around. So it's not an issue. And the battery life, again, as you say,
01:54:37 ◼ ► like I haven't found it to be a problem because I can, if anywhere that I can imagine myself
01:54:42 ◼ ► realistically wanting to use this, I have access to power. Like, and I think that that is fine and
01:54:49 ◼ ► we'll see how that goes in time. Right? Like we might have different feelings on that a month from
01:54:53 ◼ ► now. And that's, that goes for all of this. Like this is not a review, right? Like we have not reviewed
01:54:58 ◼ ► this. These are our impressions and like there's so much stuff that I've, and you, I'm sure we've
01:55:05 ◼ ► had lots of things we haven't even touched on today. This is going to take a lot of time to
01:55:11 ◼ ► talk about. Like I have a question, like my final question I wanted to ask ourselves today is what
01:55:16 ◼ ► will we use it for? And I just don't know if we can realistically answer that right now, but at
01:55:20 ◼ ► the moment, my answer is I'm trying everything. Right. And seeing how it works. During this
01:55:25 ◼ ► episode today, I found out, I don't think it's good to record a podcast of this thing on, but
01:55:30 ◼ ► yeah, you know, like these, but I'll work that out. Maybe in a month I will know how to do that.
01:55:36 ◼ ► And it will be very comfortable for me. And it will be a great way for me to record podcasts
01:55:39 ◼ ► with one of these things on, but at the moment I'm trying everything and I will know in time
01:55:46 ◼ ► what I want to use it for. Yeah, I look, this is early days. I think one of the challenges here is
01:55:55 ◼ ► people are going to view this through the lens of so many products that we talk about, which is
01:55:58 ◼ ► should I buy it? And this is an immature product in an immature product category. So should you buy
01:56:05 ◼ ► it? Like, should you buy it for real practical purposes is going to be a tough sell given the
01:56:10 ◼ ► price, even though it's very capable. I think there's an element of, I want this because it's
01:56:15 ◼ ► the future that has to be calculated for it to make sense. Cause otherwise you got plenty,
01:56:20 ◼ ► you got a super computer that lives in your pocket. You got incredibly powerful computers
01:56:24 ◼ ► that you can buy. Like this thing is the future. And that's why you buy it because you want to get
01:56:33 ◼ ► But for the most part, this is exploratory. This is the beginning of a journey. This is a
01:56:37 ◼ ► new product in a relatively young category. It's super cutting edge. It's very impressive,
01:56:51 ◼ ► I think the reviews are way more positive than I ever expected for this. I was surprised by that.
01:56:57 ◼ ► Because it is such a weird product and it's so expensive, but you know, pretty much all the
01:57:03 ◼ ► reviewers have said it's very impressive, which it is. It is Apple, like MKBHD said something in
01:57:12 ◼ ► a couple of his videos that I thought was so great. It's like people complain all the time
01:57:16 ◼ ► about, Oh, it's just another speed bump. It's just another minor incremental update. When will they
01:57:21 ◼ ► do something new and interesting? And then this comes out and there's a reaction from some people
01:57:25 ◼ ► that is like, Oh, this stupid thing. It's like, no, no, no. You don't understand. This is what
01:57:30 ◼ ► we've been asking for. This is Apple making a wild new product that is not like anything it's really
01:57:35 ◼ ► made before in some ways and trying to figure out what it is and what it's for. And like,
01:57:41 ◼ ► I think that's why so many of us got into this business is the exploration of like cutting edge.
01:57:49 ◼ ► We don't even know what it's for. Let's all figure it out together kind of stuff. And that's what
01:57:53 ◼ ► this product is. So I'm excited by it. I don't know what it's for either. The use cases that I
01:58:01 ◼ ► keep thinking up are when you're, you know, one is travel or when you're in a space where you don't
01:58:07 ◼ ► have your stuff, right? Maybe you've got a laptop, but you don't have a big screen. You know, if
01:58:13 ◼ ► you're in a hotel room, I think that's really a good thing. Maybe if you're on an airplane,
01:58:17 ◼ ► although there will be the social issues of being the person who's wearing the headset, that'll
01:58:22 ◼ ► maybe go away at some point. I don't know, but it'll be there for a while. I feel like that's,
01:58:27 ◼ ► that is a use case. Clearly the entertainment part works. Like the screens are great now in terms of
01:58:34 ◼ ► that part of it, but the price and the availability of like content for it is still a question mark.
01:58:40 ◼ ► But that I feel like that is, you know, for a product that Apple, I think wants to be part of a
01:58:45 ◼ ► long journey to a future product line. One of the tricks you have to do is you have to make it like,
01:58:53 ◼ ► what do we get for people to buy a now that keeps us alive for the future where we know we're going?
01:58:59 ◼ ► And I think entertainment really is not, you know, the immersive stuff, the 3D stuff, and then just
01:59:06 ◼ ► the quality of it as a video player for privacy and travel and things like that, I think it's
01:59:11 ◼ ► pretty good. And then yeah, as a computing device that gives you much more screen space,
01:59:19 ◼ ► that's a thing where it, I think is a winner now in some, for some people. And beyond that,
01:59:25 ◼ ► I mean, who knows? I still don't know. I, and I've been using it a lot. So I, I'm sure that over the
01:59:31 ◼ ► weekend I've been using this in ways that are not ways that I would normally use it because I'm
01:59:36 ◼ ► pushing it because I'm trying to learn about it. It, it remains to be seen what use cases I will
01:59:42 ◼ ► embrace for it. Um, beyond, you know, uh, a night where, you know, Lauren's working late and I'm
01:59:50 ◼ ► watching a movie by myself in 3D that I want to see that she doesn't want to see stuff like that.
01:59:55 ◼ ► - But you can rest assured we're going to be talking about it here on the show over the next
02:00:00 ◼ ► weeks, months, years, I guess this is our era now, we're in the Vision era, but in the meantime,
02:00:07 ◼ ► if you want to see what we're talking about, what we're thinking, you can find us online.
02:00:17 ◼ ► he is @jsnell on zeppelin.flights on Mastodon. I am @imike, I M Y K E on mike.social and on
02:00:25 ◼ ► threads and all those kinds of places. I've been posting stuff on Instagram too, uh, you can go
02:00:29 ◼ ► check out like photos and videos of me using this stuff. Uh, if you want to find video versions of
02:00:35 ◼ ► this show and clips, you can go to YouTube. You can see the entire video there. We are @upgraderelay.
02:00:41 ◼ ► We're also on Instagram, we're @upgraderelay. You want to see clips and also on TikTok as well,
02:00:46 ◼ ► where you can find us. Uh, thanks to our sponsors this week, the fine people over at Squarespace,
02:00:51 ◼ ► ExpressVPN and Fitbud. Thank you to our members who support us of Upgrade Plus. You can get longer,
02:00:57 ◼ ► ad-free versions of the show every week by going to getupgradeplus.com. If you have feedback,
02:01:03 ◼ ► follow up, or you'd like to ask us some questions, especially Ask Upgrade for next week. We ran way
02:01:07 ◼ ► too long for Ask Upgrade this week. If you have questions about the Vision Pro, go to upgradefeedback.com,