Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► [MUSIC]

00:00:07 ◼   ► Hello and welcome to Connected, Episode 487.

00:00:12 ◼   ► It's made possible this week by ZocDoc and Squarespace.

00:00:15 ◼   ► My name is Stephen Hackett and I'm joined by Mr. Mike Hurley.

00:00:19 ◼   ► Hello, Stephen Hackett.

00:00:20 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by Federico Fedigy.

00:00:25 ◼   ► I'm joined by Federico Fedigy.

00:00:27 ◼   ► Hi, Federico.

00:00:28 ◼   ► Hello, Stephen Hackett. Hello, Mike Hurley.

00:00:30 ◼   ► It is me, Federico.

00:00:32 ◼   ► Yes.

00:00:33 ◼   ► I'm so sorry.

00:00:34 ◼   ► The week after I said I don't want to hear any variations

00:00:37 ◼   ► of your name, I just absolutely butcher it.

00:00:40 ◼   ► You really did.

00:00:42 ◼   ► It's fine.

00:00:42 ◼   ► Yeah, I crashed hard into your name, man.

00:00:46 ◼   ► I apologize.

00:00:47 ◼   ► It's a big week.

00:00:49 ◼   ► We have emoji to name.

00:00:52 ◼   ► We have Apple versus the EU.

00:00:55 ◼   ► We have Vision Pro reviews.

00:00:57 ◼   ► But first, we have follow-up

00:00:59 ◼   ► and we should wish each other happy birthday, Mike.

00:01:03 ◼   ► Happy birthday, Federico.

00:01:04 ◼   ► Happy birthday, OTJ.

00:01:05 ◼   ► Happy birthday, guys.

00:01:07 ◼   ► Happy birthday, everyone.

00:01:09 ◼   ► No, this is the traditional Stephen and Mike birthday week.

00:01:13 ◼   ► It's bang in the middle.

00:01:14 ◼   ► Stephen's birthday was a couple of days ago on 28th.

00:01:18 ◼   ► Yeah, and mine is tomorrow, the 31st.

00:01:21 ◼   ► So it is that time again.

00:01:23 ◼   ► Happy birthday, everyone.

00:01:24 ◼   ► Yeah, Mike is turning 26 tomorrow.

00:01:27 ◼   ► So--

00:01:28 ◼   ► And Stephen just turned 65.

00:01:30 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, I know, I know.

00:01:32 ◼   ► Well, yeah, happy birthday.

00:01:36 ◼   ► We bought each other the same gift.

00:01:38 ◼   ► Basically, yeah, yeah.

00:01:40 ◼   ► We did.

00:01:41 ◼   ► I bought Stephen the iPhone 10 grid frame thing.

00:01:46 ◼   ► You know the grid frames?

00:01:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:01:49 ◼   ► Just because it's also the 10th year of Relay.

00:01:51 ◼   ► So I was like, oh, that's like a--

00:01:53 ◼   ► That's on theme, okay.

00:01:54 ◼   ► Two gifts in one.

00:01:56 ◼   ► And I received my gift from Stephen yesterday.

00:02:00 ◼   ► And Adina watched me open it,

00:02:03 ◼   ► and she was like, you look very happy.

00:02:05 ◼   ► Big smile on my face.

00:02:07 ◼   ► Stephen bought me the grid of the iPhone 6 Plus.

00:02:12 ◼   ► Ooh, plus copy.

00:02:13 ◼   ► AKA, the Mike was right phone.

00:02:16 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:02:18 ◼   ► Made me very happy, made me very happy.

00:02:20 ◼   ► And I didn't know what you would've gotten me

00:02:22 ◼   ► when I ordered your gift.

00:02:23 ◼   ► That's what's funny about this.

00:02:25 ◼   ► And-- It's very good.

00:02:26 ◼   ► I opened your gift to me, and I was like,

00:02:29 ◼   ► oh, look what we did.

00:02:31 ◼   ► Stephen, do you have the grid with all the enamel pins?

00:02:38 ◼   ► Did I misremember that?

00:02:39 ◼   ► I do have that.

00:02:41 ◼   ► Mary gave me that last year, I think.

00:02:42 ◼   ► 'Cause I was thinking about buying you one of those,

00:02:44 ◼   ► but yes, you have one.

00:02:46 ◼   ► And so that was why I didn't do that.

00:02:48 ◼   ► And then I was like, oh, the iPhone 10,

00:02:50 ◼   ► that's the one to do.

00:02:51 ◼   ► I do, I do have one.

00:02:52 ◼   ► So yeah, happy birthday.

00:02:55 ◼   ► Happy birthday, everyone.

00:02:57 ◼   ► Listener Randall, listener Randall wrote in,

00:03:02 ◼   ► asking, "Where have you all landed on watchOS 10,

00:03:08 ◼   ► specifically the side button and the loss of the old dock?

00:03:12 ◼   ► I found widgets to be a good replacement,

00:03:14 ◼   ► they're glanceable,

00:03:15 ◼   ► and I use them to get my favorite apps quickly.

00:03:18 ◼   ► Curious what y'all think."

00:03:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:03:20 ◼   ► Still hate the button change.

00:03:24 ◼   ► Never use widgets.

00:03:25 ◼   ► And for the past few days,

00:03:27 ◼   ► I've been looking into just out of curiosity,

00:03:31 ◼   ► like does Fitbit still exist?

00:03:34 ◼   ► - Oh no. - Yeah.

00:03:36 ◼   ► - It's just going well, basically is what you're saying.

00:03:37 ◼   ► - No, but Sylvia has been asking me, well, like, hey.

00:03:40 ◼   ► So Sylvia brought up this idea of like, you know what?

00:03:42 ◼   ► Like, I don't really use the Apple Watch much after all.

00:03:47 ◼   ► Like, are there any alternatives that are smaller?

00:03:50 ◼   ► So it all started with this question that Sylvia had.

00:03:53 ◼   ► Like, are there smaller smartwatches?

00:03:55 ◼   ► And so, and I started doing some research

00:03:58 ◼   ► and I realized that not only is Fitbit still around,

00:04:01 ◼   ► but they have some pretty cool looking, more slim devices.

00:04:05 ◼   ► Like the Charge 6 looks pretty neat.

00:04:07 ◼   ► Now I'm not gonna get a Fitbit for myself,

00:04:09 ◼   ► but I think it's interesting.

00:04:11 ◼   ► All this to say, I keep,

00:04:13 ◼   ► I'm at the point where I really dislike the changes

00:04:15 ◼   ► of watchOS 10, and I still find myself wanting

00:04:19 ◼   ► the Apple Watch to do more than it does.

00:04:22 ◼   ► Like, I don't know, give me a watch with a camera.

00:04:25 ◼   ► Give me like more things that I can do with a watch.

00:04:29 ◼   ► But Randall, I landed where I was months ago.

00:04:33 ◼   ► I dislike the changes in watchOS 10.

00:04:35 ◼   ► - Are you talking about Fitbit?

00:04:38 ◼   ► I was reminded a few days ago, I think on threads,

00:04:42 ◼   ► someone posted a picture of the jawbone up.

00:04:45 ◼   ► - Oh gosh.

00:04:47 ◼   ► - Which is like the peak of fitness tracking.

00:04:49 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:04:50 ◼   ► - It was that and the Nike Fuelband.

00:04:53 ◼   ► It was a real showdown back in the day.

00:04:55 ◼   ► - Nike Fuelband, yeah.

00:04:56 ◼   ► - Yes, these were good products that we pour one out for.

00:05:00 ◼   ► We'll never see something like this again

00:05:02 ◼   ► because everyone wants to put a screen on everything now.

00:05:05 ◼   ► I will say, probably the opposite.

00:05:08 ◼   ► I really like widgets, I use them a lot.

00:05:11 ◼   ► The only thing that I miss is like the quick access

00:05:15 ◼   ► to certain applications.

00:05:16 ◼   ► And so I use the multitasking for that

00:05:18 ◼   ► because usually I only use like four apps on my Apple Watch.

00:05:22 ◼   ► So like they're always kind of there,

00:05:24 ◼   ► just not in the order that I want.

00:05:25 ◼   ► I've gotten pretty used to the side button too.

00:05:27 ◼   ► Like I do kind of wish I could do something else with it,

00:05:29 ◼   ► but I use the widgets a lot.

00:05:30 ◼   ► And most of the things that I want are in the widgets.

00:05:33 ◼   ► And then I have one of those like widget launcher things

00:05:37 ◼   ► at the bottom, right?

00:05:38 ◼   ► Where it's got like the three apps that I want to open.

00:05:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, yep.

00:05:41 ◼   ► - Between all of that, like I'm pretty good of it.

00:05:44 ◼   ► Like I think I dig it.

00:05:45 ◼   ► I dig watchOS 10.

00:05:47 ◼   ► - I still want some sort of wristband

00:05:50 ◼   ► that does everything the Apple Watch does,

00:05:52 ◼   ► but without a screen.

00:05:53 ◼   ► But I don't, never gonna get it.

00:05:56 ◼   ► 'Cause I'd like to wear a different watch,

00:05:59 ◼   ► but still track all my stuff.

00:06:01 ◼   ► But that-

00:06:02 ◼   ► - I kind of want Apple to make a smart ring.

00:06:04 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:06:05 ◼   ► - The smart rings are sort of a thing after CES.

00:06:08 ◼   ► Yeah, that idea of like a display-free Apple tracker,

00:06:16 ◼   ► that idea speaks to me more and more, I think.

00:06:19 ◼   ► Because the thing is,

00:06:20 ◼   ► I really don't want to give up the safety,

00:06:21 ◼   ► the peace of mind that the Apple Watch gives me

00:06:23 ◼   ► with the heart rate sensor and the sleep tracking

00:06:26 ◼   ► and just being aware that there's an Apple accessory

00:06:31 ◼   ► that checks on me.

00:06:33 ◼   ► Like I don't want to give up on that, but increasingly,

00:06:36 ◼   ► I don't know if maybe watchOS 10

00:06:39 ◼   ► was sort of the catalyst of this.

00:06:43 ◼   ► I used to use it more.

00:06:45 ◼   ► And I'm sure there's a component of that

00:06:48 ◼   ► that is, it used to be easier for me

00:06:50 ◼   ► to check on a couple of apps that I use a lot on the watch,

00:06:54 ◼   ► and now it's harder to open those apps.

00:06:57 ◼   ► So I'm sure there's an element of that somewhere.

00:06:59 ◼   ► But like I said, I'm not gonna get a Fitbit,

00:07:02 ◼   ► but Silvia might, so we'll see.

00:07:05 ◼   ► - You guys know that I tried the Aura Ring last year?

00:07:08 ◼   ► - You did?

00:07:09 ◼   ► You did? - Yeah, no.

00:07:10 ◼   ► - I forgot, either I forgot or I didn't know this.

00:07:12 ◼   ► - No, you didn't forget, he didn't tell us.

00:07:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, for like a month.

00:07:15 ◼   ► - There was no forgetting here.

00:07:16 ◼   ► - How was it?

00:07:18 ◼   ► - So I've had my wedding band tattooed on my hand for years,

00:07:23 ◼   ► so I haven't worn an actual ring in a long time.

00:07:26 ◼   ► That was the weirdest part for me,

00:07:27 ◼   ► is having something on my hand again.

00:07:29 ◼   ► But it was like, I really just came down to it

00:07:33 ◼   ► like I want everything in one place.

00:07:37 ◼   ► And at least a year ago, some stuff worked

00:07:40 ◼   ► with Apple Health better than others with the Aura Ring.

00:07:44 ◼   ► And so I ended up going back to the Apple Watch

00:07:47 ◼   ► and returning it, but every once in a while,

00:07:49 ◼   ► I'm like, maybe I should have given that more time.

00:07:52 ◼   ► Maybe I should have given it a better shot.

00:07:55 ◼   ► But what I really want is that Apple band so much.

00:07:59 ◼   ► Just do it, Apple, come on.

00:08:01 ◼   ► - They're never gonna do it.

00:08:03 ◼   ► I mean, my thing is there could be all these products

00:08:05 ◼   ► and stuff like the Aura Ring, there's stuff like that,

00:08:07 ◼   ► right, Fitbits, whatever.

00:08:08 ◼   ► My issue is it's not gonna go into the rings,

00:08:11 ◼   ► and I like the rings.

00:08:12 ◼   ► - Yep, yeah.

00:08:14 ◼   ► - I guess it doesn't go the way that I want it to.

00:08:17 ◼   ► - Sasha wrote in, I wear makeup every day,

00:08:19 ◼   ► as many people do.

00:08:20 ◼   ► I always try to avoid the situation

00:08:24 ◼   ► where makeup rubs off onto my clothes.

00:08:25 ◼   ► I guess the light shield on the Vision Pro

00:08:28 ◼   ► may look pretty gruesome if I used the headset.

00:08:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

00:08:32 ◼   ► - There's no way around that.

00:08:33 ◼   ► The answer is yes, it's gonna be bad.

00:08:35 ◼   ► - I think so, and I thought about that watching,

00:08:38 ◼   ► we'll get to them, but I think we all watched

00:08:39 ◼   ► a bunch of review videos today for the Vision Pro.

00:08:42 ◼   ► And especially watching MKBHD's video unboxing it,

00:08:46 ◼   ► the whole thing is white and cloth and light gray,

00:08:50 ◼   ► and it's all very clean and pristine,

00:08:52 ◼   ► and all I could think about, in addition to this comment,

00:08:54 ◼   ► but just generally, this thing may look

00:08:57 ◼   ► really grungy in a year.

00:08:59 ◼   ► - Like, think how dirty your Apple Watch bands get.

00:09:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

00:09:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's gonna be gross.

00:09:05 ◼   ► - It's gonna be gross.

00:09:06 ◼   ► - I wonder if it's gonna be the first third-party

00:09:08 ◼   ► manufacturer to make a makeup-resistant

00:09:12 ◼   ► Vision Pro-compatible light seal.

00:09:16 ◼   ► - And bands, there's gonna be,

00:09:19 ◼   ► I'm looking forward to the different bands

00:09:22 ◼   ► that people will make.

00:09:24 ◼   ► - Like a big leather one?

00:09:26 ◼   ► - I'm thinking just different ways of attaching it to you.

00:09:30 ◼   ► Maybe stuff that has maybe more counterbalancing in.

00:09:35 ◼   ► I'm intrigued to see what people make

00:09:38 ◼   ► when this thing is available,

00:09:40 ◼   ► and people can kind of tour around with it

00:09:42 ◼   ► and come up with some stuff.

00:09:44 ◼   ► - Real-time follow-up, Aura now makes a,

00:09:47 ◼   ► because everyone does, a brushed titanium ring.

00:09:51 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:09:51 ◼   ► - Oh.

00:09:52 ◼   ► - There you go.

00:09:53 ◼   ► - Should we try the Aura rings?

00:09:55 ◼   ► - No. - As a group?

00:09:57 ◼   ► - No.

00:09:57 ◼   ► What do you wanna make this like a,

00:10:01 ◼   ► what was that show where all the kids have rings?

00:10:04 ◼   ► You know what I'm talking about?

00:10:07 ◼   ► There was like a cartoon show.

00:10:08 ◼   ► - Kids have rings.

00:10:09 ◼   ► Super Friends?

00:10:10 ◼   ► - It is like, maybe, I don't know, I don't remember.

00:10:13 ◼   ► You know, like the rings, you turn the rings and--

00:10:16 ◼   ► - Captain Planet and the Planeteers?

00:10:18 ◼   ► - It probably was Captain Planet, yeah.

00:10:20 ◼   ► It was probably Captain Planet.

00:10:21 ◼   ► - I have never heard of this in my life.

00:10:24 ◼   ► - Maybe that's it, but that's gonna be us.

00:10:26 ◼   ► We're gonna be like a band of having our little rings.

00:10:30 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't wanna do it.

00:10:31 ◼   ► I mean, if you guys wanna do it,

00:10:33 ◼   ► Gladys Stephen already has, Federico,

00:10:35 ◼   ► I like welcome it, but I'm not,

00:10:38 ◼   ► I don't wanna wear one of these things.

00:10:39 ◼   ► - Let me just read this a little bit.

00:10:42 ◼   ► Our world is in peril.

00:10:44 ◼   ► Gaia, the spirit of the earth,

00:10:45 ◼   ► can no longer stand the terrible destruction

00:10:47 ◼   ► plaguing the planet.

00:10:49 ◼   ► She sends five magic rings to five special young people.

00:10:53 ◼   ► - Oh, I thought it was from the Aura website.

00:10:55 ◼   ► - Power of the earth, power of fire, power of wind,

00:10:59 ◼   ► power of water, and most importantly, the power of heart.

00:11:02 ◼   ► When the five powers combine,

00:11:04 ◼   ► they summon earth's greatest champion, Captain Planet.

00:11:07 ◼   ► Go planet.

00:11:08 ◼   ► - Captain Planet.

00:11:09 ◼   ► - He's a hero.

00:11:10 ◼   ► - The power is yours.

00:11:12 ◼   ► - Captain Planet, okay.

00:11:14 ◼   ► - So we got that covered.

00:11:16 ◼   ► - Okay, so who would win in a fight between Captain Planet

00:11:19 ◼   ► and the mother earth that Apple showed in the video?

00:11:22 ◼   ► - I mean, Captain Planet is a superhero, so.

00:11:26 ◼   ► - It's true.

00:11:27 ◼   ► This show had six seasons, how?

00:11:29 ◼   ► - Captain Planet ruled, but it was terrible.

00:11:33 ◼   ► Like, Captain Planet is one of these things where like,

00:11:36 ◼   ► it just, they had like a different view

00:11:38 ◼   ► of what being environmentally friendly was, right?

00:11:42 ◼   ► And it was like personal responsibility

00:11:45 ◼   ► was its kind of vibe, which, you know.

00:11:50 ◼   ► Gaia was voiced by Whoopi Goldberg, so.

00:11:52 ◼   ► - Okay, cool.

00:11:53 ◼   ► - And Captain Planet had a green mullet.

00:11:56 ◼   ► - Who doesn't?

00:11:57 ◼   ► I mean, it's very much in a...

00:12:00 ◼   ► - 'Cause like, to give you the idea of what I'm saying

00:12:01 ◼   ► about a different time,

00:12:02 ◼   ► like they made Captain Planet plastic action figures.

00:12:06 ◼   ► Think about that.

00:12:07 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:12:08 ◼   ► - You know, it's a different time.

00:12:10 ◼   ► - Take that, Mother Earth.

00:12:11 ◼   ► - Obviously good for the environment.

00:12:13 ◼   ► - It's a different time, man.

00:12:15 ◼   ► - I have a very small piece of follow-up

00:12:17 ◼   ► that I have labeled for now, Mike MaybeRight.

00:12:22 ◼   ► So it's not a definitive assessment

00:12:25 ◼   ► of Mike's level of correctness.

00:12:28 ◼   ► So Mike MaybeRight.

00:12:30 ◼   ► I am trying, and this has been going on

00:12:33 ◼   ► for the past 24 hours,

00:12:35 ◼   ► I'm trying to see if Mike was or wasn't right

00:12:39 ◼   ► about using the iPhone without a case.

00:12:42 ◼   ► Yeah, it's been, I gotta tell you,

00:12:46 ◼   ► just yesterday, I decided, you know what,

00:12:49 ◼   ► I'm gonna spice things up a little bit here with this iPhone

00:12:53 ◼   ► and I'm gonna take out the case

00:12:55 ◼   ► and I'm gonna use the iPhone without a case.

00:12:57 ◼   ► It's maybe a silly thing,

00:12:58 ◼   ► but there's something about using the iPhone

00:13:02 ◼   ► without the case that makes me, of all things,

00:13:05 ◼   ► makes me appreciate the display more.

00:13:10 ◼   ► And I think it's the lack of the sort of edges

00:13:14 ◼   ► of the case around it.

00:13:17 ◼   ► The fact that it's like a flush display,

00:13:20 ◼   ► almost edge to edge on the 15 Pro Max,

00:13:23 ◼   ► that it makes me appreciate the phone's screen more.

00:13:28 ◼   ► That's what I've noticed so far.

00:13:30 ◼   ► I dislike the lack of peace of mind,

00:13:34 ◼   ► basically knowing that I will damage this device somehow,

00:13:39 ◼   ► at some point, if I keep doing this.

00:13:42 ◼   ► But so far, I look at it,

00:13:45 ◼   ► like right now it's on my anchor cube charging

00:13:48 ◼   ► and I'm looking at the display and I'm like,

00:13:50 ◼   ► that's a really cool display

00:13:51 ◼   ► in a way that I wasn't appreciating it as much before

00:13:55 ◼   ► when you put a case around it.

00:13:58 ◼   ► - Well, I'm happy that you're living free, you know?

00:14:00 ◼   ► - Well, like I said, it's just,

00:14:03 ◼   ► don't count this as a victory yet.

00:14:06 ◼   ► - I haven't yet, 'cause you haven't decided,

00:14:07 ◼   ► but it feels good, it just feels good.

00:14:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, so this is the first installment

00:14:11 ◼   ► of this mini MMBR series, Mike May Be Right.

00:14:16 ◼   ► We'll see if Mike may be right

00:14:19 ◼   ► about other things in the future.

00:14:21 ◼   ► But yeah, that's my update so far.

00:14:26 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:14:28 ◼   ► - Oh God.

00:14:29 ◼   ► - Welcome back to the Quizzies,

00:14:30 ◼   ► the quiz show within a podcast

00:14:32 ◼   ► where I, Mike Hurley,

00:14:33 ◼   ► quiz my connected co-hosts randomly

00:14:35 ◼   ► and by surprise on a variety of varying subjects.

00:14:38 ◼   ► As happened last year, the Quizzies has eaten the Jeremy's

00:14:42 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:14:43 ◼   ► and has absorbed the Jeremy's inside of the Quizzies.

00:14:47 ◼   ► So here we are, it's time for the Jeremy's.

00:14:49 ◼   ► What are the Jeremy's inside of the Quizzies, you may ask?

00:14:52 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:14:53 ◼   ► - Oh my God.

00:14:54 ◼   ► - It's where we take a look at the new emoji

00:14:57 ◼   ► that have been added to iOS

00:14:59 ◼   ► and Federico has to try and guess the names.

00:15:02 ◼   ► This year there are six emoji, there's not a lot of emoji.

00:15:07 ◼   ► So to be fair, they have added many more,

00:15:10 ◼   ► but they are not like really things

00:15:12 ◼   ► worth trying to get Federico to guess.

00:15:15 ◼   ► Like they added a selection of family emoji

00:15:17 ◼   ► that are just outlines

00:15:19 ◼   ► and it's just like various combinations

00:15:21 ◼   ► of the word adult and child.

00:15:23 ◼   ► Like for example, there is one emoji that is called family,

00:15:26 ◼   ► adult, adult, child, child.

00:15:28 ◼   ► There's just no point in having Federico guess that.

00:15:30 ◼   ► Also there is a selection of emoji

00:15:32 ◼   ► that were moving in one direction

00:15:34 ◼   ► and now they have them moving in the other direction.

00:15:36 ◼   ► So person facing right and person facing left.

00:15:39 ◼   ► - So it's the peanut butter, peanut butter,

00:15:41 ◼   ► peanut butter release.

00:15:42 ◼   ► - Peanut butter bread bread.

00:15:43 ◼   ► - Basically, yeah.

00:15:44 ◼   ► But there are six emoji that are new.

00:15:48 ◼   ► We have new designs, we haven't had them before.

00:15:50 ◼   ► They're like brand new things.

00:15:53 ◼   ► That is what we're going to be quizzing Federico on.

00:15:56 ◼   ► And here is where the quizzes take the Jeremy's

00:16:01 ◼   ► and make it part of the game.

00:16:02 ◼   ► So we are currently this year,

00:16:05 ◼   ► as you remember we reset scores every year.

00:16:07 ◼   ► The scores for 2024, Steven is at 300 points in the quizzes

00:16:11 ◼   ► and Federico is at 100 points in the quizzes.

00:16:14 ◼   ► Well, today we're going to slightly adjust

00:16:17 ◼   ► the possible points available.

00:16:19 ◼   ► Like so last time we did this,

00:16:21 ◼   ► there was a five and 10 points on the line

00:16:23 ◼   ► for what we'll get to in a minute.

00:16:24 ◼   ► I'm going to change it because there's so few emoji.

00:16:27 ◼   ► It would make the game kind of inconsequential

00:16:28 ◼   ► if the maximum points scored were available

00:16:31 ◼   ► with just 60, it doesn't really seem that great.

00:16:34 ◼   ► So for every emoji that Federico gets correct,

00:16:39 ◼   ► he will score 15 points.

00:16:46 ◼   ► - Whoa.

00:16:47 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:16:48 ◼   ► For every emoji Federico gets wrong,

00:16:53 ◼   ► Steven scores 20 points.

00:16:55 ◼   ► - What?

00:16:56 ◼   ► No.

00:16:58 ◼   ► - Well, okay.

00:16:59 ◼   ► - It didn't do anything to deserve those points.

00:17:02 ◼   ► - Let's talk about this.

00:17:03 ◼   ► Whoa, whoa, hang on a second.

00:17:04 ◼   ► Last time we did this,

00:17:06 ◼   ► it was because it was just more likely

00:17:08 ◼   ► that Federico was going to get them correct.

00:17:11 ◼   ► So what if this time we just even it out at 20 and 20?

00:17:14 ◼   ► That's what we're going to do.

00:17:16 ◼   ► So Federico, you get 20 points.

00:17:18 ◼   ► If you get the name correct,

00:17:20 ◼   ► Steven gets 20 points if you get it wrong.

00:17:22 ◼   ► Last time as well, there was a bet put on the line

00:17:27 ◼   ► that I don't know if either of you,

00:17:29 ◼   ► if you want to get into this time

00:17:31 ◼   ► where Federico got 80% of them correct,

00:17:33 ◼   ► we doubled his points.

00:17:35 ◼   ► - Okay, I'll take that back.

00:17:38 ◼   ► - But you'll take that?

00:17:40 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:17:41 ◼   ► Let's live.

00:17:42 ◼   ► It's only January, there's plenty of time.

00:17:43 ◼   ► Let's live it up.

00:17:45 ◼   ► - It didn't go in the other direction though.

00:17:47 ◼   ► - So we'll do that again.

00:17:48 ◼   ► So Federico, if you get 80% correct,

00:17:51 ◼   ► which I'll do the math in a minute,

00:17:53 ◼   ► then you'll get double points at the end of it.

00:17:55 ◼   ► - Hang on, that's what, 80% of six.

00:17:58 ◼   ► - Four?

00:17:59 ◼   ► - Probably.

00:18:00 ◼   ► 4.8.

00:18:02 ◼   ► - I'm going to say four.

00:18:05 ◼   ► Federico, if you get four correct,

00:18:07 ◼   ► you'll get double points.

00:18:08 ◼   ► - Okay, okay.

00:18:09 ◼   ► - So there's a lot of points on the line here, all right?

00:18:11 ◼   ► - Let's do this.

00:18:12 ◼   ► - This will come back to heart you, Steven.

00:18:14 ◼   ► So, and I will say for the sake of it,

00:18:16 ◼   ► I'm getting the names of these emoji from Emojipedia.

00:18:21 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:18:23 ◼   ► - And I, as Quizzy Master, will decide how correct

00:18:27 ◼   ► I will want you to be, Federico.

00:18:29 ◼   ► - Okay, okay.

00:18:31 ◼   ► - So we start top left.

00:18:33 ◼   ► - Top left.

00:18:34 ◼   ► Okay, so I'm looking at this image, six emoji,

00:18:37 ◼   ► start top left.

00:18:38 ◼   ► Okay, so what I'm looking at is,

00:18:41 ◼   ► so the first one is very similar to the second one.

00:18:44 ◼   ► So I think I gotta understand the first one.

00:18:47 ◼   ► And if I get it wrong, I still have the other one.

00:18:50 ◼   ► So I'm looking at, this is not the name that I'm gonna give.

00:18:54 ◼   ► I'm looking at a head.

00:18:56 ◼   ► So these are two heads.

00:18:57 ◼   ► One is saying no, and the other is saying yes.

00:19:00 ◼   ► However, I don't think that Apple will,

00:19:03 ◼   ► or that the Unicode Consortium will label this

00:19:08 ◼   ► like saying yes or saying no.

00:19:10 ◼   ► These are heads shaking.

00:19:12 ◼   ► Now, are they shaking left or right,

00:19:14 ◼   ► or are they shaking horizontally?

00:19:17 ◼   ► Like what terminology are they using?

00:19:21 ◼   ► I'm gonna go with this first one.

00:19:22 ◼   ► Head shaking horizontally.

00:19:27 ◼   ► - If there's one thing Federico Fatici knows,

00:19:30 ◼   ► it is the way that the Unicode Consortium thinks.

00:19:34 ◼   ► Because this emoji is called head shaking horizontally.

00:19:38 ◼   ► That is 20 points for Federico.

00:19:39 ◼   ► - Okay, okay.

00:19:41 ◼   ► So assume, so if that's correct,

00:19:44 ◼   ► then the second one would be head shaking vertically.

00:19:47 ◼   ► - Would you believe it?

00:19:49 ◼   ► - No. - That is correct.

00:19:50 ◼   ► That's correct. - Okay.

00:19:51 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:19:52 ◼   ► - Can you imagine if they were like heads saying yes?

00:19:55 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:19:55 ◼   ► - Oh my God.

00:19:56 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:19:59 ◼   ► So the third one is interesting.

00:20:01 ◼   ► Because obviously in mythology, this is a phoenix.

00:20:05 ◼   ► However, I think there's a catch here.

00:20:09 ◼   ► Because I don't think, knowing these folks,

00:20:12 ◼   ► I don't think they would just label an emoji phoenix,

00:20:16 ◼   ► because it could be confused with the city.

00:20:20 ◼   ► Phoenix, Arizona, I wanna say.

00:20:21 ◼   ► Right, you gotta think how they think.

00:20:25 ◼   ► So they need to add some kind of descriptor.

00:20:30 ◼   ► Now, they wouldn't say red or orange phoenix,

00:20:34 ◼   ► because it's a gradient of color in this little emoji.

00:20:39 ◼   ► So they're gonna use some kind,

00:20:43 ◼   ► they're gonna have a descriptor

00:20:45 ◼   ► for the kind of creature that it is.

00:20:48 ◼   ► And my thinking is that obviously a phoenix in mythology,

00:20:54 ◼   ► it's a bird that rises from the ashes.

00:20:58 ◼   ► Now, I don't think they're gonna call it like flaming bird.

00:21:03 ◼   ► I don't think they're gonna,

00:21:05 ◼   ► I think they're gonna call it phoenix.

00:21:08 ◼   ► I'm gonna go with phoenix bird.

00:21:10 ◼   ► - So this emoji is just called phoenix.

00:21:14 ◼   ► - Oh my God.

00:21:15 ◼   ► - And I think I can't give it to you,

00:21:17 ◼   ► because you were there.

00:21:20 ◼   ► - Just called phoenix?

00:21:22 ◼   ► - It's just called phoenix.

00:21:23 ◼   ► - Really, they did it?

00:21:24 ◼   ► - You over thought, that's 20 points for Steven.

00:21:27 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:21:29 ◼   ► - You over thought, see this is where like,

00:21:32 ◼   ► you flew like a phoenix, I guess,

00:21:35 ◼   ► too close to the sun on that one.

00:21:36 ◼   ► - And I caught on fire.

00:21:37 ◼   ► - You caught on fire, you were a regular bird.

00:21:40 ◼   ► And you went to, I think that's how the phoenix works.

00:21:42 ◼   ► It was a regular bird, it went too high and caught on fire.

00:21:44 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure that's what happened.

00:21:46 ◼   ► - What happened, yeah.

00:21:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, emoji number four.

00:21:48 ◼   ► - So, number four.

00:21:52 ◼   ► So, okay.

00:21:54 ◼   ► So I'm looking at this by the color alone.

00:21:58 ◼   ► I think this is a piece of lime.

00:22:01 ◼   ► Could it be a piece of lemon?

00:22:03 ◼   ► Because I mean, I'm looking at it and it's green.

00:22:07 ◼   ► And it looks like a piece of lime.

00:22:09 ◼   ► Is it lime or lemon?

00:22:12 ◼   ► And is there a lemon emoji already?

00:22:15 ◼   ► Like, is this a slice of lime or a slice of lemon?

00:22:19 ◼   ► - You tell us. - It's green.

00:22:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm not sure if you're actually asking me

00:22:25 ◼   ► these questions or we just talking through.

00:22:27 ◼   ► - I think he's like asking the universe.

00:22:29 ◼   ► - I'm asking the universe.

00:22:30 ◼   ► - He's looking to the phoenix and he's asking the question.

00:22:33 ◼   ► - The phoenix bird.

00:22:34 ◼   ► So this is lime.

00:22:37 ◼   ► - You're correct, that is lime.

00:22:39 ◼   ► I'm very happy they've added a lime emoji.

00:22:41 ◼   ► Like it's something that's been missing for a long time.

00:22:43 ◼   ► - There's a lemon emoji already, right?

00:22:44 ◼   ► - There is a lemon emoji, but the lemon emoji

00:22:46 ◼   ► is just a lemon.

00:22:47 ◼   ► So I'm actually happy they added the lime emoji

00:22:49 ◼   ► and it's a wedge because then they visually look

00:22:52 ◼   ► more different rather than just like,

00:22:53 ◼   ► oh, it's the green lemon.

00:22:55 ◼   ► - Okay, number four.

00:22:58 ◼   ► I mean, it's a mushroom, okay?

00:23:01 ◼   ► So it is a mushroom.

00:23:02 ◼   ► Do I need to call it anything else?

00:23:06 ◼   ► - Um, I'm just gonna go with mushroom

00:23:09 ◼   ► because I have no idea.

00:23:11 ◼   ► - I'm afraid Federico, there is already

00:23:13 ◼   ► an emoji called mushroom.

00:23:14 ◼   ► - And what is this?

00:23:15 ◼   ► - Brown mushroom.

00:23:17 ◼   ► - Oh my God.

00:23:18 ◼   ► - So currently you have got three correct.

00:23:21 ◼   ► You have 60 points.

00:23:22 ◼   ► Steven has 40 points.

00:23:24 ◼   ► You have the opportunity to double your points.

00:23:27 ◼   ► It rides on this last one, the sixth and final emoji.

00:23:32 ◼   ► If you get this correct, you will get 160 points total.

00:23:37 ◼   ► - So this is the, there's a,

00:23:41 ◼   ► so this is a broken version of an existing emoji.

00:23:45 ◼   ► There is an existing emoji.

00:23:46 ◼   ► This is a chain.

00:23:47 ◼   ► It's, my only concern is that it's also used

00:23:51 ◼   ► in some contexts for a link, right?

00:23:54 ◼   ► So it could be an emoji for a broken link,

00:23:57 ◼   ► but it could also, it just might as well be

00:24:00 ◼   ► like a broken chain.

00:24:01 ◼   ► - Wouldn't the broken link emoji be like a man

00:24:03 ◼   ► doing like road work, website under construction, you know?

00:24:08 ◼   ► - How else would I, like this is, this is a chain

00:24:15 ◼   ► and it's, I mean, they're doing the little signs

00:24:19 ◼   ► to show you that it's like, I'm gonna go with broken chain.

00:24:23 ◼   ► - At the end of the Jeremy's for 2024.

00:24:30 ◼   ► Steven scores 40 points.

00:24:34 ◼   ► Federico scores 160 points.

00:24:38 ◼   ► - Yes, yes.

00:24:38 ◼   ► - It is broken chain.

00:24:40 ◼   ► You got four out of six correct Federico.

00:24:44 ◼   ► Congratulations.

00:24:45 ◼   ► - Thank you, thank you.

00:24:46 ◼   ► - You are the emoji whisperer.

00:24:47 ◼   ► And that brings our total scores for the quizzes in 2024

00:24:51 ◼   ► to Steven with 340 points,

00:24:54 ◼   ► Federico closing the gap with 260 points.

00:24:57 ◼   ► Good points, whole Federico.

00:24:59 ◼   ► - I'm coming for you, Steven.

00:25:01 ◼   ► - And now I will say Unicode Consortium,

00:25:04 ◼   ► more emoji please.

00:25:05 ◼   ► Six emoji, what's going on?

00:25:07 ◼   ► What are you doing?

00:25:08 ◼   ► What's going on?

00:25:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, they just don't make them like they used to.

00:25:11 ◼   ► - They really don't.

00:25:12 ◼   ► - Out of all of these, I feel like Lime was,

00:25:18 ◼   ► and excuse the pun, the lowest hanging fruit here.

00:25:20 ◼   ► Like I don't think I needed a Phoenix emoji,

00:25:23 ◼   ► but the Lime, like you said, might.

00:25:24 ◼   ► - No, I genuinely don't know why there is a Phoenix emoji.

00:25:27 ◼   ► I don't know what that is for.

00:25:29 ◼   ► I don't know who asked for it.

00:25:31 ◼   ► I'm sure somebody did.

00:25:32 ◼   ► I'm sure I could find the paperwork,

00:25:34 ◼   ► but like, I don't really need to know.

00:25:35 ◼   ► But you know, why is this here?

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00:27:49 ◼   ► - Have either of you heard of the European Union?

00:27:53 ◼   ► - Is it a country?

00:27:56 ◼   ► - I'm not sure.

00:27:57 ◼   ► I'm not sure, but there is this thing out there

00:28:01 ◼   ► called the European Union

00:28:03 ◼   ► and it has a thing within it called the European Commission

00:28:07 ◼   ► and the European Commission created something called

00:28:09 ◼   ► the Digital Markets Act.

00:28:11 ◼   ► And that piece of paper is freaking havoc.

00:28:14 ◼   ► - Well, if there's one thing I know

00:28:17 ◼   ► is that Apple hates unions.

00:28:20 ◼   ► So this is consistent.

00:28:22 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:28:23 ◼   ► - There he goes.

00:28:25 ◼   ► There he goes.

00:28:26 ◼   ► If I had a bell, I'd ding it.

00:28:29 ◼   ► - I got a bell.

00:28:30 ◼   ► Everybody, well, where is it?

00:28:31 ◼   ► Here it is.

00:28:32 ◼   ► - You have to turn on that feature in Zoom.

00:28:34 ◼   ► (humming)

00:28:36 ◼   ► We're not gonna explain the DMA.

00:28:41 ◼   ► We're not gonna explain all the ins and outs

00:28:44 ◼   ► of Apple's response, I think.

00:28:46 ◼   ► 'Cause one, I did it for 90 minutes in upgrade yesterday.

00:28:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, it was excellent.

00:28:53 ◼   ► - The longest chapter I've ever, thank you.

00:28:55 ◼   ► It was a one hour and 26 minute chapter

00:28:59 ◼   ► inside of the episode.

00:29:00 ◼   ► I don't think I've ever had a chapter that long before.

00:29:04 ◼   ► So read that.

00:29:06 ◼   ► John did a really great post on Mac stories.

00:29:10 ◼   ► You read that.

00:29:11 ◼   ► I'll also put a link to John Gruber's article

00:29:13 ◼   ► in the show notes as well.

00:29:14 ◼   ► That's out there.

00:29:15 ◼   ► You probably don't need to hear us talk about it anymore.

00:29:18 ◼   ► But I am keen to hear what the two of you think about it.

00:29:21 ◼   ► I think I'll start with you Federico,

00:29:22 ◼   ► 'cause this actually truly can impact you,

00:29:26 ◼   ► whether the rest of us as users would just look

00:29:28 ◼   ► either longingly or with side eye at it.

00:29:33 ◼   ► - Side loading eye, you mean?

00:29:34 ◼   ► - Well, I actually think you'll find it's called

00:29:38 ◼   ► Alternative App Marketplace Eye.

00:29:40 ◼   ► - Oh yeah.

00:29:41 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:29:42 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:29:43 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:29:44 ◼   ► So I, wow.

00:29:46 ◼   ► So it's a very complicated topic.

00:29:49 ◼   ► My two cents right now on the politics of it is,

00:29:54 ◼   ► I don't think the European Union will be okay

00:30:00 ◼   ► with parts of Apple's proposal.

00:30:03 ◼   ► And especially, I mean, the core technology fee.

00:30:06 ◼   ► I think that is the one aspect

00:30:08 ◼   ► that Apple will probably have to rethink,

00:30:11 ◼   ► because I think there's so many issues in that fee

00:30:14 ◼   ► that just do not play well with any kind of free,

00:30:19 ◼   ► or not even necessarily open source app,

00:30:22 ◼   ► but just free apps that get more than 1 million users

00:30:26 ◼   ► that may end up having to pay this very expensive monthly

00:30:31 ◼   ► or annual, I guess, fees to Apple.

00:30:33 ◼   ► So I think that CTF part of the proposal

00:30:37 ◼   ► doesn't really sit well with me.

00:30:39 ◼   ► And I'd be surprised if the European Union accepts it.

00:30:42 ◼   ► But other than that, as a user,

00:30:46 ◼   ► so from that perspective,

00:30:47 ◼   ► from the perspective that I know as a user,

00:30:50 ◼   ► I absolutely cannot wait to see what happens here.

00:30:55 ◼   ► I think I will be in this weird scenario with my Apple ID,

00:31:00 ◼   ► where I will be using a US Apple ID,

00:31:04 ◼   ► but my phone will recognize me as a European user.

00:31:09 ◼   ► So I think I will be able, if my theory is correct,

00:31:12 ◼   ► and Apple will use a bunch of signals

00:31:14 ◼   ► to determine on your phone

00:31:15 ◼   ► what is the identifiable region of your device,

00:31:19 ◼   ► I think I will be able to access EU features

00:31:23 ◼   ► with a US Apple ID.

00:31:26 ◼   ► So I will be like a fake John Bore

00:31:29 ◼   ► who is traveling to Europe.

00:31:31 ◼   ► - I know how they're doing it.

00:31:32 ◼   ► - How are they doing it?

00:31:34 ◼   ► - So they've created a new system called Country D,

00:31:37 ◼   ► which is just hilarious.

00:31:40 ◼   ► And Country D.

00:31:41 ◼   ► - Country D.

00:31:44 ◼   ► - Country D.

00:31:45 ◼   ► - It's like D who just like listens

00:31:47 ◼   ► to a different type of music

00:31:49 ◼   ► and now they're Country D, you know, like they, anyway.

00:31:52 ◼   ► It is taking four things into account

00:31:55 ◼   ► to identify a region for you.

00:31:57 ◼   ► It is your Apple ID billing address.

00:32:00 ◼   ► - Okay, so that's US.

00:32:02 ◼   ► - Your country location.

00:32:04 ◼   ► - Italy.

00:32:05 ◼   ► - The region set in settings.

00:32:08 ◼   ► - US.

00:32:08 ◼   ► - And the device class.

00:32:11 ◼   ► - Italy.

00:32:12 ◼   ► So it's split for you now.

00:32:13 ◼   ► - Sorry, no, the device class is whether it's an iPhone

00:32:15 ◼   ► or not basically.

00:32:16 ◼   ► - Okay, well, interesting, we'll see.

00:32:20 ◼   ► - I have no, so I expect you with your current setup,

00:32:24 ◼   ► it's going to think you are an American in Italy.

00:32:27 ◼   ► - An American in Italy.

00:32:28 ◼   ► - So you will have the US App Store.

00:32:30 ◼   ► You will have to change those other two parts,

00:32:33 ◼   ► like your region and use your European Apple ID

00:32:37 ◼   ► to get sideloading stuff.

00:32:39 ◼   ► - Mr. Fake John Voorhees goes to Europe.

00:32:42 ◼   ► That will be my scenario.

00:32:43 ◼   ► - OTJ goes to Europe.

00:32:47 ◼   ► - Well, it's fake OTJ.

00:32:48 ◼   ► It's not, it's fake, actually it's fake J,

00:32:51 ◼   ► just it's not OTJ, you know.

00:32:53 ◼   ► - Wait, 'cause yeah, that would be like OFJ, right?

00:32:57 ◼   ► The one false John.

00:32:59 ◼   ► - The one false, OFJ.

00:33:00 ◼   ► - One false John.

00:33:01 ◼   ► - OFJ, but maybe if I just change my region setting

00:33:06 ◼   ► in settings to Italy,

00:33:09 ◼   ► that will be three against one in country D, you know?

00:33:13 ◼   ► If they just-- - I have no idea.

00:33:15 ◼   ► - If they just do that calculation,

00:33:17 ◼   ► like how many factors weigh against this being

00:33:19 ◼   ► an American person or a European citizen

00:33:22 ◼   ► with a US Apple ID, I don't know, we'll see.

00:33:26 ◼   ► - I bet the Apple ID billing address is the key.

00:33:28 ◼   ► - Really, you think so?

00:33:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, because like if you change,

00:33:32 ◼   ► if you're in Italy and change your region to Italy,

00:33:35 ◼   ► like it still knows-- - It doesn't matter.

00:33:39 ◼   ► It doesn't matter.

00:33:40 ◼   ► It doesn't change it.

00:33:41 ◼   ► The region setting, it only really changes

00:33:44 ◼   ► like how time is displayed

00:33:46 ◼   ► and like I still can keep using the US App Store.

00:33:49 ◼   ► So anyway, we'll get to that when, we'll see.

00:33:53 ◼   ► But I think I absolutely cannot wait,

00:33:57 ◼   ► especially for browsers, for non-WebKit browsers.

00:34:01 ◼   ► I think this, it'll be great to finally have some choice

00:34:07 ◼   ► in terms of not having to use WebKit

00:34:10 ◼   ► and being able to use Chromium,

00:34:12 ◼   ► being able to use other engines with actually browsers

00:34:16 ◼   ► that are not just reskins of Safari,

00:34:19 ◼   ► being able to do even small things like, you know,

00:34:24 ◼   ► install extensions that are not available in Safari

00:34:28 ◼   ► on a mobile browser,

00:34:30 ◼   ► which is something that I cannot do right now.

00:34:32 ◼   ► And of course, the third-party marketplaces,

00:34:36 ◼   ► you know, besides assuming that Epic

00:34:39 ◼   ► is gonna do an Epic Game Store,

00:34:40 ◼   ► that seems pretty much a given at this point.

00:34:42 ◼   ► - They have said they're going to do one.

00:34:44 ◼   ► - Exactly.

00:34:45 ◼   ► - They've already announced the Epic Game Store.

00:34:47 ◼   ► They've announced Fortnite will return

00:34:50 ◼   ► on the Epic Game Store.

00:34:52 ◼   ► - I am fully expecting for actually, like,

00:34:55 ◼   ► alternative app stores that include the kinds of apps

00:34:59 ◼   ► that you just cannot get from the app store,

00:35:01 ◼   ► like Dolphin, the Dolphin emulator for iOS.

00:35:05 ◼   ► There is an iOS version of Dolphin

00:35:07 ◼   ► that you can only install with Alt Store,

00:35:10 ◼   ► the semi-jailbreaking,

00:35:12 ◼   ► it's not really a jailbreaking method.

00:35:15 ◼   ► Those, like, emulators will be great to have on iOS

00:35:18 ◼   ► from relatively reputable sources based on MarketplaceKit.

00:35:23 ◼   ► So that would be fantastic.

00:35:25 ◼   ► - How sick is it gonna be to get, like, a 3DS emulator

00:35:30 ◼   ► on your iPhone with a backbone?

00:35:33 ◼   ► - Yes, exactly, exactly.

00:35:36 ◼   ► So yeah, I am pretty happy about all of this.

00:35:41 ◼   ► I know that it's not, in our circles,

00:35:45 ◼   ► it's maybe not a popular take,

00:35:47 ◼   ► especially in US-centric media

00:35:49 ◼   ► that like to poke fun at the European Union

00:35:52 ◼   ► and their draconian laws and complexities,

00:35:56 ◼   ► but I think it's actually great for us.

00:35:58 ◼   ► And so, and payment methods, you know,

00:36:02 ◼   ► all this stuff I am really happy with as a user.

00:36:06 ◼   ► I find it's funny because, like, they, you know,

00:36:11 ◼   ► whenever I read on this US-based blogs that,

00:36:14 ◼   ► oh, when you travel to Europe, you are bombarded

00:36:17 ◼   ► with GDPR notices and cookie concepts,

00:36:20 ◼   ► like, yeah, we see those,

00:36:22 ◼   ► but also we have a proper governmental entity

00:36:25 ◼   ► that, you know, checks those things for us.

00:36:27 ◼   ► And the benefit is like, you know,

00:36:29 ◼   ► you get all these options and you get data portability,

00:36:32 ◼   ► so there are plenty of things to it.

00:36:34 ◼   ► - There are cookie notices everywhere,

00:36:36 ◼   ► but GDPR really did scare people.

00:36:38 ◼   ► Like, it scared companies into being smarter

00:36:41 ◼   ► about how they handled it.

00:36:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, so.

00:36:44 ◼   ► The one thing I wish the European Commission would do

00:36:47 ◼   ► is manage the communication around the laws different.

00:36:51 ◼   ► So like, you mentioned it and lots of people

00:36:53 ◼   ► are talking about like, oh, the European Commission

00:36:56 ◼   ► are not gonna accept the CTF, right?

00:36:57 ◼   ► This is something that people think right now.

00:37:00 ◼   ► The problem is then they're not telling this to Apple, right?

00:37:02 ◼   ► And from the way that I understand it,

00:37:05 ◼   ► they won't tell them either.

00:37:07 ◼   ► Like, it will be solved in case law.

00:37:08 ◼   ► So Apple will launch, right, their proposal on March 7th,

00:37:14 ◼   ► and then it will come after that,

00:37:16 ◼   ► that maybe somebody will try and make a complaint

00:37:20 ◼   ► to the European Commission.

00:37:22 ◼   ► Then they will rule on whether the CTF should exist.

00:37:25 ◼   ► That is the way I understand that this happens.

00:37:28 ◼   ► I don't think that that is a effective

00:37:31 ◼   ► like, lawmaking process. - Got it.

00:37:33 ◼   ► - Like, I think it would make more sense

00:37:35 ◼   ► if Apple submitted this to the European Commission

00:37:38 ◼   ► and then they said yes or no,

00:37:40 ◼   ► rather than waiting to try and solve it in case law.

00:37:44 ◼   ► Like, I don't, like, if they are the ones asking for it,

00:37:48 ◼   ► I feel like they should be the ones judging it

00:37:52 ◼   ► by Apple making this submission.

00:37:54 ◼   ► Like, for everything that I've been able to understand

00:37:56 ◼   ► is like, this will just begin on March 7th

00:37:58 ◼   ► and then we see what happens after that.

00:38:00 ◼   ► Which just, it just feels inefficient

00:38:01 ◼   ► for everybody involved.

00:38:02 ◼   ► But. - That is true, yeah.

00:38:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think, to me, the idea of a fee to Apple

00:38:11 ◼   ► makes sense, but I think that there has to be some kind of,

00:38:14 ◼   ► there has to be money involved to the developer too, right?

00:38:18 ◼   ► Like, then the idea of the core technology fee

00:38:21 ◼   ► makes sense to me.

00:38:22 ◼   ► Because if an app is purely free

00:38:24 ◼   ► and it's never gonna make any money,

00:38:26 ◼   ► it can't exist if it has to pay, right?

00:38:30 ◼   ► Although again, right, like,

00:38:31 ◼   ► it still has to hit the million first,

00:38:33 ◼   ► but I think it would scare people.

00:38:35 ◼   ► People would be worried, right,

00:38:36 ◼   ► that they would be very successful

00:38:38 ◼   ► and like, it wouldn't work for them.

00:38:40 ◼   ► So, I feel like, with that amendment,

00:38:43 ◼   ► I think it would be fine.

00:38:45 ◼   ► To me, like, if you have a business model,

00:38:48 ◼   ► you are aiming to make money,

00:38:50 ◼   ► then you now owe Apple money as a licensing fee.

00:38:54 ◼   ► What do you think, Steven?

00:38:58 ◼   ► Welcome to App Development, by the way.

00:39:00 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, yeah, what a week, disclosure.

00:39:02 ◼   ► - I said to Fedor, can I text Steven during the week?

00:39:04 ◼   ► And I was like, on last week's episode,

00:39:06 ◼   ► we talk about, like, you know,

00:39:07 ◼   ► you're joining with David and you're like,

00:39:09 ◼   ► you're in this and sometimes we're gonna have to talk

00:39:11 ◼   ► about some stuff around App Development.

00:39:13 ◼   ► And then within those seven days,

00:39:16 ◼   ► all of this happens, probably the biggest thing,

00:39:19 ◼   ► like, from an effect in maybe like the last 10 years.

00:39:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, just right in the deep end.

00:39:26 ◼   ► I will echo first, whether Bill said,

00:39:31 ◼   ► the upgrade episode is really good.

00:39:32 ◼   ► It's the best explanation I've consumed over this.

00:39:37 ◼   ► And so thank you for your work on that.

00:39:39 ◼   ► I know that it was basically your whole weekend, I think.

00:39:42 ◼   ► So thank you for doing that.

00:39:44 ◼   ► Something Jason said on that episode really jumped out at me

00:39:49 ◼   ► and it was the idea that there's a whiteboard somewhere

00:39:52 ◼   ► at Apple's headquarters where they are drawing lines

00:39:56 ◼   ► as close to the rules as they can.

00:39:59 ◼   ► And that really resonated with me

00:40:02 ◼   ► because reading through this, I mean,

00:40:03 ◼   ► the fact that it took you so long to explain this

00:40:07 ◼   ► and to walk through the various, like, ins and outs of it,

00:40:12 ◼   ► but not even that, just like the amount of fine print,

00:40:14 ◼   ► the amount of trade-offs developers have to consider

00:40:19 ◼   ► is just, it feels like it's way more complicated

00:40:22 ◼   ► than it needed to be.

00:40:24 ◼   ► But that's because Apple is coloring

00:40:28 ◼   ► as close to the lines as possible here.

00:40:31 ◼   ► And I know that there's been a lot of conversation

00:40:36 ◼   ► around Apple's attitude towards third-party developers

00:40:40 ◼   ► and, you know, is that coming to play in the Vision Pro?

00:40:43 ◼   ► Like, I don't know.

00:40:44 ◼   ► But it is clear that Apple is going into this

00:40:47 ◼   ► as an unwilling participant in change.

00:40:50 ◼   ► And that continues to be disappointing.

00:40:53 ◼   ► I mean, the App Store was introduced in 2008.

00:40:56 ◼   ► This year, the App Store turns what?

00:41:01 ◼   ► That's 16 years old.

00:41:04 ◼   ► And while there have been changes,

00:41:06 ◼   ► the fundamental business setup is basically the same.

00:41:11 ◼   ► And the world has changed around it

00:41:15 ◼   ► in a way that makes it probably not tenable forever.

00:41:19 ◼   ► I do expect that other parts of the world

00:41:23 ◼   ► will want this or other things.

00:41:25 ◼   ► And we're gonna continue to see a fragmentation

00:41:28 ◼   ► of how iOS works depending on where you live

00:41:32 ◼   ► or where your Apple ID thinks you live

00:41:34 ◼   ► in Federico and John's cases.

00:41:36 ◼   ► But yeah, it's just messy.

00:41:38 ◼   ► And I think at the end of the day,

00:41:41 ◼   ► a lot of developers that we know who's apps

00:41:43 ◼   ► that we get awards in our shows and trophies

00:41:46 ◼   ► for Mac stories, like a lot of indie developers

00:41:49 ◼   ► aren't gonna really consider this

00:41:50 ◼   ► because the potential trade-offs aren't worth it.

00:41:53 ◼   ► Or the risk of that core technology fee

00:41:56 ◼   ► coming back to bite them is not worth it.

00:41:59 ◼   ► But for companies like Epic,

00:42:03 ◼   ► who have a game store already on Android,

00:42:05 ◼   ► yeah, of course they're gonna do it.

00:42:08 ◼   ► There are questions, right?

00:42:09 ◼   ► Because one of the stipulations is

00:42:11 ◼   ► you can't have a one company store.

00:42:14 ◼   ► So Meta can't open a store with just as apps.

00:42:17 ◼   ► And so what does that mean?

00:42:19 ◼   ► Like, will they lump in with somebody else?

00:42:22 ◼   ► I suspect if we fast forward a year from now,

00:42:26 ◼   ► there may be two or three reasonably sized

00:42:30 ◼   ► third-party marketplaces out there,

00:42:32 ◼   ► but the bulk of the business will still take place

00:42:36 ◼   ► in Apple's app store.

00:42:38 ◼   ► And you only go to those alternatives

00:42:39 ◼   ► if something you want isn't available in Apple's app store.

00:42:44 ◼   ► Because another condition of this is

00:42:47 ◼   ► Apple's rules around what they do and don't allow

00:42:51 ◼   ► in their store in terms of content.

00:42:54 ◼   ► So apps that include adult material or gambling,

00:42:59 ◼   ► or there's a list of things they don't approve.

00:43:02 ◼   ► Apple can no longer,

00:43:04 ◼   ► well, they can't enforce those rules

00:43:06 ◼   ► in third-party marketplaces.

00:43:08 ◼   ► And so it may be that if you want something like that,

00:43:10 ◼   ► you gotta go elsewhere.

00:43:13 ◼   ► But I think for most people, most of the time,

00:43:15 ◼   ► this probably isn't even gonna make a big impact to them.

00:43:17 ◼   ► And that I find interesting.

00:43:21 ◼   ► Like we're going through all of this,

00:43:23 ◼   ► and the EU is trying to make things more competitive,

00:43:28 ◼   ► but I don't think it's quite there.

00:43:31 ◼   ► And I think for most people, it'll just be business as usual

00:43:34 ◼   ► and there'll be a few notable exceptions to that.

00:43:38 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:43:39 ◼   ► - You mentioned Epic.

00:43:40 ◼   ► Like the Epic game store,

00:43:43 ◼   ► I don't believe they have one for Android.

00:43:45 ◼   ► It's on PC.

00:43:46 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:43:47 ◼   ► - And I don't say that to correct you.

00:43:50 ◼   ► It's more that just like they said it's coming to iOS.

00:43:52 ◼   ► So to fit with these rules,

00:43:53 ◼   ► they have to spin up like a bunch of agreements, right?

00:43:56 ◼   ► Like they have to get other games,

00:43:58 ◼   ► which may be very possible for them

00:44:00 ◼   ► because they have lots of very good relationships,

00:44:04 ◼   ► but they have all of their own games

00:44:05 ◼   ► and Epic own a bunch of games,

00:44:07 ◼   ► which I hope some of them as well as "Fortnite,"

00:44:10 ◼   ► but you might get "Rocket League"

00:44:11 ◼   ► and some of the other games come to iOS,

00:44:13 ◼   ► but they would need to bring external parties

00:44:16 ◼   ► into the system too,

00:44:18 ◼   ► which I'm sure they would do

00:44:19 ◼   ► 'cause they have a system of which to do this, right?

00:44:22 ◼   ► Like the Epic game store is like the app store.

00:44:24 ◼   ► It's like, it's a competitor to Steam basically, right?

00:44:27 ◼   ► People submit and also Epic pay

00:44:30 ◼   ► to bring people to the platform.

00:44:32 ◼   ► But like, it's kind of interesting that like,

00:44:34 ◼   ► they've said they're gonna do this

00:44:35 ◼   ► where they have like six weeks

00:44:38 ◼   ► to like actually set up an entire system

00:44:40 ◼   ► to allow for iOS games to try and join the platform.

00:44:43 ◼   ► And also I imagine probably no one will want to do it.

00:44:46 ◼   ► So maybe Epic's gonna have to start cutting some checks

00:44:48 ◼   ► for iOS as well as they do for PC.

00:44:51 ◼   ► So it could be interesting.

00:44:52 ◼   ► 'Cause like if you're a game,

00:44:54 ◼   ► especially if you're a game maker,

00:44:55 ◼   ► like I don't know if it's like beneficial

00:45:00 ◼   ► to do this right now,

00:45:02 ◼   ► unless again, like you're the type of game

00:45:04 ◼   ► that doesn't exist on iOS 'cause it can't.

00:45:07 ◼   ► And then I would wonder would Epic accept it

00:45:09 ◼   ► in the Epic game store anyway?

00:45:10 ◼   ► Like, I don't know.

00:45:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, who knows?

00:45:14 ◼   ► I did wanna ask the two of y'all

00:45:15 ◼   ► what you think about the game streaming changes.

00:45:19 ◼   ► 'Cause those are changes to the App Store globally.

00:45:22 ◼   ► You two were like the people in my life I go to

00:45:26 ◼   ► for gaming commentary.

00:45:28 ◼   ► So what, Mike, if you could explain that rule change

00:45:32 ◼   ► and maybe what the two of you think that's gonna bring

00:45:34 ◼   ► or what it means.

00:45:36 ◼   ► - Well, previously to now,

00:45:39 ◼   ► a service like Game Pass, so Xbox Game Pass,

00:45:45 ◼   ► would be not impossible to have launched on iOS,

00:45:49 ◼   ► but not simple either.

00:45:51 ◼   ► Because what Apple wanted was,

00:45:54 ◼   ► this is a pure streaming service, right?

00:45:56 ◼   ► So there's no games actually being properly downloaded

00:46:00 ◼   ► to a device, it's all played over the web, right?

00:46:02 ◼   ► And you're streaming, like it's game streaming

00:46:04 ◼   ► from the cloud.

00:46:05 ◼   ► What Apple wanted was for Microsoft to submit every title

00:46:10 ◼   ► on Game Pass as individual games,

00:46:13 ◼   ► and you would download each one of them,

00:46:15 ◼   ► which was just like completely went around the whole point

00:46:19 ◼   ► of what Game Pass is, which is like,

00:46:20 ◼   ► imagine basically if Apple said to Netflix,

00:46:23 ◼   ► you have to submit every movie as an individual app, right?

00:46:26 ◼   ► Like that's effectively what they were asking Microsoft

00:46:28 ◼   ► to do, so Microsoft said they weren't gonna do it.

00:46:31 ◼   ► Apple's now said you can now submit a single app

00:46:34 ◼   ► and essentially like you've got to still abide by the rules.

00:46:39 ◼   ► So every game is still abide by the rules.

00:46:41 ◼   ► They haven't really been super clear about if or how

00:46:43 ◼   ► they're gonna try and like,

00:46:45 ◼   ► I think that this is kind of like a just don't mess around

00:46:48 ◼   ► and we won't take you down, I think is similar

00:46:50 ◼   ► to how they would do a Netflix, right?

00:46:52 ◼   ► Like, you know, 'cause they can't actually review

00:46:55 ◼   ► all of the content on Netflix, right?

00:46:56 ◼   ► There has to be a kind of like a mutually assured destruction

00:47:00 ◼   ► kind of thing with that.

00:47:01 ◼   ► I expect they'll do a similar thing

00:47:03 ◼   ► with the game streaming services.

00:47:05 ◼   ► And that rolls out to everyone it's available now.

00:47:09 ◼   ► The rule is now available, they can do that,

00:47:10 ◼   ► and they just have to make sure that the age rating

00:47:13 ◼   ► for the highest rating of any game,

00:47:17 ◼   ► or if they have a NC-17 game,

00:47:20 ◼   ► that has to be the rating on the App Store app

00:47:22 ◼   ► for Xbox Game Pass.

00:47:24 ◼   ► So I think I saw a headline today.

00:47:28 ◼   ► I wish I could, I'm trying to find it now

00:47:31 ◼   ► that Microsoft seemed to be unhappy,

00:47:34 ◼   ► but I think it might have been about

00:47:35 ◼   ► the core technology fee.

00:47:37 ◼   ► I'm not sure if it was about this, but as of right now,

00:47:41 ◼   ► I don't think Microsoft has said one way or another

00:47:43 ◼   ► as to whether they would be willing to bring Game Pass,

00:47:46 ◼   ► but I kind of feel like it would be very strange

00:47:50 ◼   ► if they didn't, right?

00:47:51 ◼   ► Like this is, it seems like they've gotten

00:47:54 ◼   ► what they're asking for, but I don't believe

00:47:57 ◼   ► you have to accept the new business terms to do this,

00:48:00 ◼   ► but maybe you do, maybe that's the problem.

00:48:02 ◼   ► Like I actually don't, I don't know what their concern is.

00:48:05 ◼   ► If I can find this article, I'll put it in the show notes.

00:48:07 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:48:09 ◼   ► - So yeah, that's changes coming with the DMA.

00:48:12 ◼   ► This rolls out in March, and like you said, Mike,

00:48:14 ◼   ► there, it's very well, there may be additional changes

00:48:17 ◼   ► as this gets sorted out in courts

00:48:20 ◼   ► and as other governments look at this and be like,

00:48:23 ◼   ► oh, maybe we want something like that too.

00:48:26 ◼   ► - All right, I found what I was looking for.

00:48:28 ◼   ► Basically, they are saying the core technology fee

00:48:31 ◼   ► is not something that they agree with,

00:48:34 ◼   ► and even the Xbox president says,

00:48:36 ◼   ► we believe constructive conversations drive change,

00:48:39 ◼   ► that Apple's new policy is a step in the wrong direction.

00:48:42 ◼   ► So they're unhappy, I don't know if they're gonna,

00:48:45 ◼   ► what they're gonna do, but they seem to be unhappy

00:48:49 ◼   ► about this because obviously they would like

00:48:51 ◼   ► to be able to be free to do whatever they want.

00:48:53 ◼   ► - This episode of Connected is brought to you by Squarespace,

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00:50:30 ◼   ► Our thanks to Squarespace for their support of Connected

00:50:33 ◼   ► and Relay FM.

00:50:34 ◼   ► It is the day of Vision Pro reviews as we record this.

00:50:40 ◼   ► We've got a bunch of links in the show notes,

00:50:43 ◼   ► MKBHD, The Verge, Joanna Stern at The Wall Street Journal,

00:50:47 ◼   ► iJustine, Brian Tong, lots of great stuff out there.

00:50:51 ◼   ► And I kind of wanted to hear from y'all

00:50:53 ◼   ► like your sort of high level takeaways.

00:50:57 ◼   ► Let's start maybe with the unboxing experience

00:51:00 ◼   ► and sort of how Apple presents it,

00:51:02 ◼   ► because that all looks super high end and super cool.

00:51:05 ◼   ► - And super big.

00:51:06 ◼   ► - Big box.

00:51:08 ◼   ► - It's a big old box.

00:51:09 ◼   ► I'm sorry for anyone who's getting it shipped.

00:51:12 ◼   ► Big old box.

00:51:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's a giant box.

00:51:16 ◼   ► That thing is gonna cost me hundreds of dollars

00:51:18 ◼   ► to get it shipped.

00:51:20 ◼   ► I mean, look at that thing, right?

00:51:22 ◼   ► But it looks nice.

00:51:24 ◼   ► It looks very nice.

00:51:25 ◼   ► - And there's a lot in the box, right?

00:51:27 ◼   ► Like we knew this already, but like there's just a lot

00:51:31 ◼   ► of stuff which I think is good because of how expensive it is.

00:51:34 ◼   ► You want to have everything.

00:51:36 ◼   ► And like, I actually am pretty pleased

00:51:39 ◼   ► that they included the power adapter

00:51:40 ◼   ► because it would have just been too many headlines, right?

00:51:43 ◼   ► Like it costs three, this $3,000 product

00:51:48 ◼   ► didn't include a power adapter.

00:51:50 ◼   ► It would have been every headline.

00:51:51 ◼   ► - You should write headlines.

00:51:52 ◼   ► You should write headlines for other websites.

00:51:55 ◼   ► - You want me to do it for you?

00:51:56 ◼   ► - Sure, why not?

00:51:57 ◼   ► You can be MikeGPT.

00:51:59 ◼   ► - This app has that one trick.

00:52:02 ◼   ► That's getting to me.

00:52:03 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:52:05 ◼   ► - Good job, good job.

00:52:06 ◼   ► I know I really like how all the different accessories

00:52:10 ◼   ► all laid out and I'm especially a fan of the design

00:52:14 ◼   ► of the carrying case, even though it's giant.

00:52:18 ◼   ► I really like the white aesthetic.

00:52:21 ◼   ► I think Steven, you tweeted that it reminded you

00:52:23 ◼   ► of like the Apollo era.

00:52:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, I was trying to understand

00:52:28 ◼   ► what does this reminds me of and it's that.

00:52:30 ◼   ► So I agree that design, sort of cushiony feel.

00:52:35 ◼   ► Yeah, that I really dig.

00:52:39 ◼   ► And also how it's--

00:52:40 ◼   ► - Isn't it interesting?

00:52:41 ◼   ► I like it too, but it really sticks out.

00:52:45 ◼   ► Like they don't make anything else

00:52:46 ◼   ► that looks even remotely like this.

00:52:48 ◼   ► - No, they don't.

00:52:49 ◼   ► - Interesting.

00:52:50 ◼   ► - And also the, what's it called?

00:52:53 ◼   ► Like the cover, like the front cover.

00:52:56 ◼   ► I think that I'm gonna use a lot.

00:52:57 ◼   ► Like when I leave the device just sort of laying around

00:52:59 ◼   ► around the house, that I'm gonna use a lot.

00:53:03 ◼   ► But I'm also looking forward to third party versions

00:53:05 ◼   ► of both the case and the front cover.

00:53:08 ◼   ► - I think Nilay's review at The Verge

00:53:11 ◼   ► was the most comprehensive.

00:53:14 ◼   ► It's a written review and a video where Marques

00:53:18 ◼   ► and some other sort of set this up

00:53:20 ◼   ► as like impressions on boxing.

00:53:22 ◼   ► I don't know which way is right,

00:53:23 ◼   ► but I do expect The Verge to revisit it as things evolve.

00:53:28 ◼   ► The thing that jumped out at me,

00:53:30 ◼   ► I think the most in his review was talking about pass-through.

00:53:35 ◼   ► So this is the Vision Pro cameras capturing the space

00:53:39 ◼   ► around you and feeding it into your displays.

00:53:41 ◼   ► And he mentioned several times,

00:53:43 ◼   ► like you have the feeling you're looking through a camera.

00:53:46 ◼   ► You're not necessarily looking at real life.

00:53:48 ◼   ► And there's some trade-offs with that.

00:53:50 ◼   ► And the most interesting one to me was

00:53:53 ◼   ► if the Vision Pro only shows about half the colors

00:53:55 ◼   ► we can see as actual humans.

00:53:58 ◼   ► And I think in iJustine's video,

00:54:00 ◼   ► like some what she's wearing a pink sweater

00:54:02 ◼   ► or like a long sleeve shirt.

00:54:03 ◼   ► And the pink the camera sees on her

00:54:07 ◼   ► versus the pink we see through the screen capture

00:54:10 ◼   ► of the Vision Pro, like they're different.

00:54:12 ◼   ► Like it's not as vibrant, it's not as bright.

00:54:15 ◼   ► And I just wonder how that's gonna be.

00:54:18 ◼   ► Like, is the world gonna be a little bit muted?

00:54:20 ◼   ► I'm out of the three of us,

00:54:21 ◼   ► I'm the only one who hasn't tried it.

00:54:23 ◼   ► So maybe this wasn't as groundbreaking to y'all,

00:54:26 ◼   ► but that definitely sort of caught my attention.

00:54:29 ◼   ► - From my jam, I remember that it was like

00:54:31 ◼   ► a very nondescript kind of boring room.

00:54:34 ◼   ► And now in hindsight, I kind of wonder

00:54:37 ◼   ► if they didn't put any particularly colorful piece

00:54:40 ◼   ► of furniture inside the room on purpose

00:54:43 ◼   ► so that you wouldn't notice like, oh wait,

00:54:44 ◼   ► that bright pink or red color is kind of different.

00:54:48 ◼   ► Well, I believe there was like, it was a gray sofa

00:54:53 ◼   ► and some very neutral.

00:54:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, but that is also their color palette though, right?

00:54:57 ◼   ► Like it looked like an Apple store in there.

00:55:00 ◼   ► - Right, yeah, it looked like that.

00:55:01 ◼   ► So it was hard to tell.

00:55:03 ◼   ► - The color thing was surprising to me,

00:55:05 ◼   ► but like I remember at the time saying that

00:55:08 ◼   ► it looked like I was looking through a low light camera,

00:55:13 ◼   ► right, like a camera in low light,

00:55:15 ◼   ► which gets a little grainy.

00:55:16 ◼   ► Like that's what it looked like to me.

00:55:18 ◼   ► But the picture quality and the resolution

00:55:23 ◼   ► and the responsiveness, I think is more important

00:55:28 ◼   ► than the color accuracy.

00:55:30 ◼   ► Like to get it to look like you're looking,

00:55:34 ◼   ► for the only downside to be there's not enough color.

00:55:37 ◼   ► - It's a pretty good downside, yes.

00:55:39 ◼   ► - Color's not gonna make you motion sick.

00:55:42 ◼   ► - Exactly, and like Neil, I did mention that

00:55:44 ◼   ► like it can happen, right?

00:55:45 ◼   ► You know, it can happen.

00:55:47 ◼   ► It can still happen, people need to just be aware

00:55:49 ◼   ► that like you might get surprised.

00:55:52 ◼   ► This thing about like the color,

00:55:53 ◼   ► and so it kind of encapsulates the way that I feel

00:55:56 ◼   ► about all of these reviews.

00:55:58 ◼   ► Like I watched this one, I watched Joanna Stern's.

00:56:00 ◼   ► I haven't looked at Brian Tong's yet

00:56:03 ◼   ► 'cause it's the longest, but that's--

00:56:04 ◼   ► - It's an hour.

00:56:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm really excited to watch it,

00:56:07 ◼   ► but I have not been able to do it

00:56:10 ◼   ► 'cause you know, just the time that these came out

00:56:11 ◼   ► and the time that we were recording.

00:56:13 ◼   ► But it kind of, the color thing kind of encapsulates

00:56:17 ◼   ► the way that I'm feeling about these reviews in general,

00:56:20 ◼   ► which is I 100% expected there to be downsides

00:56:23 ◼   ► about this product.

00:56:24 ◼   ► Like I did not think that it would be perfect

00:56:28 ◼   ► by any stretch, but the ways in which it is not perfect

00:56:32 ◼   ► are the ways that I expected,

00:56:35 ◼   ► and the ways in which it is good

00:56:37 ◼   ► are the ways that I hoped.

00:56:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, he's very, this Michael guy is very good

00:56:42 ◼   ► at summarizing things.

00:56:43 ◼   ► - I'm good at headlines and also summaries.

00:56:46 ◼   ► - And you are one feature away

00:56:49 ◼   ► from being a Chai GPT competitor, my friend.

00:56:51 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:56:54 ◼   ► No, I really liked Joanna's review

00:56:57 ◼   ► because I think that review did a really good job

00:57:00 ◼   ► at conveying what it feels like

00:57:03 ◼   ► to use the Vision Pro in real life.

00:57:05 ◼   ► And my favorite moment from the review, from the video,

00:57:08 ◼   ► was when Joanna tried to cook while wearing the Vision Pro.

00:57:13 ◼   ► And the moment when I went, "Oh man, that's so sick.

00:57:16 ◼   ► "I cannot wait to get this device,"

00:57:19 ◼   ► was when she took the Crouton cooking app,

00:57:23 ◼   ► excellent app by Devin Davis.

00:57:27 ◼   ► And she put the timers, like the individual timers

00:57:31 ◼   ► for different dishes, for different things

00:57:35 ◼   ► that she was cooking on the stove right above the pots.

00:57:39 ◼   ► So that, and that felt like the moment for me.

00:57:42 ◼   ► You were like, "Yeah, I mean, maybe you're not supposed

00:57:44 ◼   ► "to cook while wearing the Vision Pro."

00:57:48 ◼   ► But you look at that with--

00:57:51 ◼   ► - It's cool.

00:57:52 ◼   ► - Pieces of computer UI that are contextually placed

00:57:57 ◼   ► on top of a real life object.

00:57:59 ◼   ► And you're like, "Hmm, that's very cool.

00:58:01 ◼   ► "That's very neat."

00:58:03 ◼   ► But then also little things like, all right,

00:58:06 ◼   ► so, you know, Neil, I was like,

00:58:07 ◼   ► "There's not really any window management."

00:58:09 ◼   ► I was like, "I expected that to be the case."

00:58:10 ◼   ► But he's like, "Oh, but I can have like a million windows."

00:58:12 ◼   ► And I'm like, "Yes."

00:58:14 ◼   ► You know, it's like, what I expected was there wasn't gonna

00:58:17 ◼   ► be great window management tools,

00:58:19 ◼   ► because there's not third party ones,

00:58:20 ◼   ► and they're not gonna allow that.

00:58:22 ◼   ► But what I was worried about is there might be

00:58:24 ◼   ► like a three window safari limit, right?

00:58:28 ◼   ► But he's got them everywhere.

00:58:30 ◼   ► Or like when he's like, "Oh, bad news

00:58:32 ◼   ► "about the Mac experience.

00:58:37 ◼   ► "I'll leave one display."

00:58:38 ◼   ► And it's like, "I knew this, so I'm not bothered about that."

00:58:41 ◼   ► But it's like, "Oh, but universal control works."

00:58:43 ◼   ► I'm like, "Yes."

00:58:45 ◼   ► Right, 'cause this was a thing I didn't know.

00:58:46 ◼   ► And the whole time I've been like,

00:58:48 ◼   ► "Oh, I love my keyboards, but like, they're not gonna work

00:58:51 ◼   ► "because they're all mechanical keyboards

00:58:53 ◼   ► "that are plugged in by cables."

00:58:54 ◼   ► Which is like, "But if they're connected to my Mac,

00:58:57 ◼   ► "it will work, and then I can use my nice keyboard

00:58:59 ◼   ► "with the Vision Pro at my desk."

00:59:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, so the thing I posted on Mastodon

00:59:04 ◼   ► and then I sent to you guys, I wrote like,

00:59:07 ◼   ► "Of all things, I bet it's the Vision Pro

00:59:11 ◼   ► "that's going to make me a Mac user again."

00:59:14 ◼   ► And so that's something I was thinking

00:59:17 ◼   ► while watching these videos.

00:59:19 ◼   ► So the problem for me will be that the integration

00:59:24 ◼   ► with the traditional computing platforms

00:59:27 ◼   ► is gonna be Mac only with the Vision Pro.

00:59:29 ◼   ► You can only sort of transfer your Mac screen

00:59:34 ◼   ► to the Vision Pro.

00:59:35 ◼   ► You cannot do the same with an iPad Pro,

00:59:38 ◼   ► which is a pretty big miss, in my opinion.

00:59:40 ◼   ► However, I wanna see if maybe they could do the same

00:59:43 ◼   ► with the next iPad Pro, although I doubt it.

00:59:46 ◼   ► Ideally, I should be able to do what these reviewers

00:59:50 ◼   ► have been doing with their MacBooks

00:59:53 ◼   ► and view an iPadOS virtual display inside the Vision Pro,

00:59:58 ◼   ► in Vision OS.

00:59:59 ◼   ► Right now, that's not possible.

01:00:01 ◼   ► I wonder if it will be possible with the next iPad Pro,

01:00:04 ◼   ► but I know that for now,

01:00:07 ◼   ► I'm just gonna use the MacBook Air more

01:00:09 ◼   ► because that's the only sort of non-Vision OS

01:00:12 ◼   ► computer experience that I can see inside Vision OS.

01:00:17 ◼   ► And sure, I mean, in proper lighting conditions,

01:00:21 ◼   ► I guess I could just look at my iPad Pro's display.

01:00:24 ◼   ► Nilay did this great test where he showed

01:00:27 ◼   ► looking at the iPhone with proper lighting,

01:00:30 ◼   ► and it was fine via the video passthrough of the Vision Pro.

01:00:35 ◼   ► And he could make out text, and he could scroll.

01:00:37 ◼   ► There was no latency.

01:00:38 ◼   ► That was great.

01:00:39 ◼   ► The system started struggling in low light, obviously.

01:00:42 ◼   ► So that is also something I'm thinking about,

01:00:45 ◼   ► like, well, if I'm using the Vision Pro at night,

01:00:48 ◼   ► do I wanna still turn on a light around me

01:00:51 ◼   ► so to make sure that I don't run into blurry text

01:00:55 ◼   ► or too much noise in video passthrough?

01:00:59 ◼   ► But still, the idea of you can see your Mac apps

01:01:04 ◼   ► in a virtual Mac desktop in Vision OS,

01:01:08 ◼   ► that's gonna make me use the MacBook Air a lot more,

01:01:10 ◼   ► unless that also becomes possible with iPad OS.

01:01:14 ◼   ► I mean, technically, if you use a Vision Pro,

01:01:18 ◼   ► you're still using an iPad.

01:01:20 ◼   ► Like, technically, you know?

01:01:22 ◼   ► Like, we can get this on a technicality if you want.

01:01:25 ◼   ► - Big brain.

01:01:26 ◼   ► You know, you don't need an iPad Pro

01:01:27 ◼   ► when you're using Vision OS.

01:01:29 ◼   ► - They're way the same, so it's the same experience.

01:01:32 ◼   ► - There you go.

01:01:32 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:01:33 ◼   ► - 'Cause, again, Neil, he mentioned in his review

01:01:37 ◼   ► that Apple told him that Vision OS was based on iPad OS,

01:01:41 ◼   ► which I didn't remember this, or I didn't know this.

01:01:45 ◼   ► Like, I feel like I could've assumed it,

01:01:47 ◼   ► but for it to be said so clearly, I guess it's important.

01:01:50 ◼   ► But my hope is, though, that that's the base,

01:01:53 ◼   ► and now it goes into its own.

01:01:55 ◼   ► Like, it continues going into places that are its own.

01:01:58 ◼   ► I don't want them to be tied together.

01:01:59 ◼   ► That's not what I want.

01:02:01 ◼   ► - It really feels like Vision OS

01:02:03 ◼   ► is the best possible version of iPad OS today.

01:02:06 ◼   ► - Sure.

01:02:07 ◼   ► - Like, as many windows as you want,

01:02:10 ◼   ► a way to view Mac OS

01:02:12 ◼   ► and the same familiar app ecosystem, right?

01:02:17 ◼   ► It's the ultimate version of iPad OS,

01:02:19 ◼   ► but it's not an iPad.

01:02:19 ◼   ► - Well, it's literally what you've been asking for

01:02:21 ◼   ► for the last two, three years, right?

01:02:23 ◼   ► Is these features on iPad OS.

01:02:25 ◼   ► - It's the ultimate version of iPad OS.

01:02:28 ◼   ► Like, if you think about it, right now,

01:02:30 ◼   ► the Vision Pro is the real iPad Pro.

01:02:32 ◼   ► - The best iPad Pro is the one you have on your face,

01:02:37 ◼   ► as they say. - Yes.

01:02:38 ◼   ► - As they say.

01:02:39 ◼   ► - See, that's also a very good headline.

01:02:42 ◼   ► You two should team up together and do a company,

01:02:45 ◼   ► but not a podcast in one, one that writes headlines

01:02:48 ◼   ► for other new venture ideas.

01:02:51 ◼   ► - Maybe I can be an editor for Project Tapestry

01:02:53 ◼   ► in the future.

01:02:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, there you go.

01:02:56 ◼   ► - One thing that I am worried about is text entry.

01:03:01 ◼   ► I know you just mentioned the universal control stuff.

01:03:04 ◼   ► The virtual keyboard kinda doesn't seem that awesome,

01:03:08 ◼   ► but then I was reminded of Federico's beloved

01:03:12 ◼   ► 12 South accessory, the Magic Bridge,

01:03:16 ◼   ► where you snap in a trackpad and keyboard together,

01:03:19 ◼   ► and I bought one, and I have a trackpad on the way.

01:03:23 ◼   ► I already have a spare keyboard.

01:03:24 ◼   ► I think it's gonna be like my dedicated

01:03:26 ◼   ► Vision Pro input system.

01:03:28 ◼   ► So I can sit on the couch and have the keyboard

01:03:30 ◼   ► and trackpad all nice and neat.

01:03:32 ◼   ► - Yep, yep.

01:03:34 ◼   ► On Mastodon, Castean, developer Castean,

01:03:40 ◼   ► I don't remember their name, their Castean,

01:03:43 ◼   ► or Mastodon is the username,

01:03:45 ◼   ► posted this excellent guide, it's a GitHub link.

01:03:49 ◼   ► They did some truly astounding work

01:03:54 ◼   ► in trying to find any good third-party

01:03:59 ◼   ► keyboard trackpad combos

01:04:03 ◼   ► that are not what you just mentioned, Steven,

01:04:06 ◼   ► an Apple Magic keyboard and an Apple Magic trackpad

01:04:09 ◼   ► sort of tied together.

01:04:10 ◼   ► Are there any third-party ways

01:04:14 ◼   ► to have that sort of lap usage setup?

01:04:18 ◼   ► And there is one way you guys are gonna love it.

01:04:22 ◼   ► The one way that is possible right now is

01:04:26 ◼   ► an old and discontinued bridge keyboard.

01:04:32 ◼   ► Hold on, hold on, it gets better.

01:04:36 ◼   ► That you can only get, I believe from Amazon US,

01:04:40 ◼   ► specifically it's the older version.

01:04:42 ◼   ► The one with the weird hinges,

01:04:44 ◼   ► with the weird clips where you put your iPad inside.

01:04:48 ◼   ► So it's the 12.9 Pro Plus.

01:04:51 ◼   ► It's not the Max Plus, it's the old Pro Plus model.

01:04:55 ◼   ► And the reason is that keyboard,

01:04:58 ◼   ► if you can get one from Amazon with the latest firmware,

01:05:02 ◼   ► remember, we've been over this before,

01:05:05 ◼   ► the bridge website no longer offers a firmware update tool.

01:05:10 ◼   ► So if you can get a unit from Amazon US

01:05:13 ◼   ► that just so happened to have the latest firmware,

01:05:18 ◼   ► that keyboard has the proper trackpad descriptor

01:05:24 ◼   ► that lets you use multi-touch gestures with VisionOS.

01:05:28 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm pretty sure the best trackpad

01:05:30 ◼   ► is Apple's trackpad, I think is what we've learned

01:05:32 ◼   ► from this version.

01:05:33 ◼   ► Honestly, yes.

01:05:35 ◼   ► But all this to say, I am trying my luck with this method,

01:05:39 ◼   ► with the KSTN method.

01:05:41 ◼   ► I put in an order for an old bridge keyboard.

01:05:44 ◼   ► - Oh, this is the person who-

01:05:47 ◼   ► - Yes, making the HDMI over the network stream now.

01:05:52 ◼   ► - No, isn't this the person who did the,

01:05:55 ◼   ► they were the first person that we saw

01:05:58 ◼   ► that took the touch ID out of the-

01:06:02 ◼   ► - Oh, it's possible?

01:06:03 ◼   ► Yeah, KSTN. - Yeah, yeah.

01:06:04 ◼   ► - KSTN, yeah. - KSTN, yeah.

01:06:06 ◼   ► Yes, all kinds of cool things.

01:06:08 ◼   ► But also making a cloud streaming gaming app for VisionOS.

01:06:12 ◼   ► So there's that.

01:06:14 ◼   ► - Multi-touch.

01:06:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I am waiting for this old bridge keyboard

01:06:19 ◼   ► from Amazon US, it's coming Monday.

01:06:20 ◼   ► - Oh, you actually went for it.

01:06:22 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, I mean, you know me, right?

01:06:25 ◼   ► I gotta do it.

01:06:26 ◼   ► We'll see, we'll see.

01:06:29 ◼   ► But yeah, I was surprised by that text input preview UI.

01:06:34 ◼   ► I think that's something new that we hadn't seen before.

01:06:38 ◼   ► Like when you're looking at your,

01:06:40 ◼   ► so if you're wearing the Vision Pro

01:06:41 ◼   ► and you look down at a keyboard

01:06:43 ◼   ► and you're typing on the keyboard,

01:06:44 ◼   ► like a Bluetooth keyboard, for example,

01:06:46 ◼   ► a little sort of contextual UI pops up above the keyboard

01:06:51 ◼   ► to show you a close-up preview of the text you're entering.

01:06:55 ◼   ► That's very nicely done.

01:06:56 ◼   ► - So last minute hype check.

01:06:59 ◼   ► Do the reviews change how we feel about our pre-orders?

01:07:02 ◼   ► - Not really.

01:07:04 ◼   ► I'm as excited, well, no, yes.

01:07:07 ◼   ► I am more excited than before, I would say.

01:07:09 ◼   ► Like Mike said, it is limited in the ways

01:07:13 ◼   ► I thought it was gonna be limited.

01:07:14 ◼   ► It is expensive in all the ways

01:07:15 ◼   ► I knew it was gonna be expensive.

01:07:17 ◼   ► And, but it seems like these reviews

01:07:21 ◼   ► have removed the last doubts that I had

01:07:24 ◼   ► in terms of how many windows can I open?

01:07:26 ◼   ► Like, can I really fill my workspace all around me

01:07:30 ◼   ► with windows all over the place?

01:07:31 ◼   ► And I can do that, and that made me more excited, yes.

01:07:37 ◼   ► I'm just as excited as I was before.

01:07:39 ◼   ► It kind of hasn't changed.

01:07:40 ◼   ► 'Cause my, I'm not really necessarily tied

01:07:45 ◼   ► to like really feeling like this has to work.

01:07:50 ◼   ► I'm just excited for the ride.

01:07:52 ◼   ► Like that's kind of where I am.

01:07:54 ◼   ► Like whatever ends up happening.

01:07:56 ◼   ► I will say one thing that I was surprised about,

01:07:58 ◼   ► 'cause my expectations are so low,

01:08:00 ◼   ► I think the personas look better

01:08:01 ◼   ► than I thought they were coming to.

01:08:03 ◼   ► Even when people were saying how bad they looked,

01:08:05 ◼   ► I thought it was kind of impressive

01:08:07 ◼   ► how much they looked like.

01:08:08 ◼   ► So there's amongst a couple of reviews,

01:08:11 ◼   ► there's like a call that happened between MKBHD,

01:08:14 ◼   ► Neil I. Patel, and Joanna Stern,

01:08:15 ◼   ► and like weird and wonderful things happened during that.

01:08:18 ◼   ► But even though they didn't look right,

01:08:21 ◼   ► they did actually look like them,

01:08:23 ◼   ► which was very interesting to me.

01:08:27 ◼   ► And there was a lot of weird stuff happening.

01:08:28 ◼   ► Like maybe they can do something to try and make it better,

01:08:31 ◼   ► but like I've been very down on it.

01:08:33 ◼   ► So like that actually surprised me

01:08:34 ◼   ► because it looked better than I thought.

01:08:36 ◼   ► But yeah, in general, I am as excited as I was before,

01:08:40 ◼   ► but I think of the three of us,

01:08:42 ◼   ► Steven was the least excited.

01:08:43 ◼   ► So I think I'm actually pretty intrigued to know

01:08:46 ◼   ► if your feeling has been changed.

01:08:49 ◼   ► - I have more of a feeling of this is really cool tech,

01:08:53 ◼   ► but I'm not sure what it's for yet.

01:08:55 ◼   ► Like that feeling has been amplified through this.

01:08:58 ◼   ► So yeah, we'll see.

01:09:00 ◼   ► I will say I found it very interesting

01:09:03 ◼   ► that all the reviews I watched like talked or showed,

01:09:06 ◼   ► like, hey, you can bring a Mac into this.

01:09:08 ◼   ► And like Federico said earlier, that's really interesting,

01:09:12 ◼   ► but we'll see.

01:09:13 ◼   ► The hardware is very exciting.

01:09:16 ◼   ► Tune back in for the software, I guess.

01:09:18 ◼   ► Well, that does it for this week.

01:09:22 ◼   ► Next time we talk to you will be changed people.

01:09:27 ◼   ► - Hey, maybe.

01:09:27 ◼   ► I don't know, yeah, to what's gonna happen with my shipment.

01:09:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'll be a changed person.

01:09:32 ◼   ► Mike will be a changed person.

01:09:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, Federico might be a very upset person.

01:09:38 ◼   ► - I may be, I may be a changed person

01:09:41 ◼   ► with a much lighter wallet.

01:09:44 ◼   ► So we'll see.

01:09:46 ◼   ► - Well, until then you can follow us all online.

01:09:50 ◼   ► Federico is the editor-in-chief of maxstories.net.

01:09:53 ◼   ► You can follow him on Mastodon as Vitichi at maxstories.net

01:09:57 ◼   ► and on Threads as Vitichi, that's V-I-T-I-C-C-I.

01:10:01 ◼   ► You can follow Mike's work on other shows here

01:10:04 ◼   ► on Relay FM.

01:10:05 ◼   ► Seriously, go check out that upgrade episode.

01:10:07 ◼   ► You can also find Mike's work over at Cortex Brand.

01:10:10 ◼   ► Mike is on Mastodon as iMike at mike.social

01:10:13 ◼   ► and iMike on Threads.

01:10:15 ◼   ► You can follow me as ismh86 on Threads

01:10:19 ◼   ► or ismh@eworld.social on Mastodon.

01:10:21 ◼   ► I co-host Mac Power Users here on Relay

01:10:24 ◼   ► each and every Sunday.

01:10:25 ◼   ► And my writing is over at 512pixels.net.

01:10:28 ◼   ► I'd like to thank our sponsors this week,

01:10:30 ◼   ► ZocDoc and Squarespace.

01:10:32 ◼   ► And until next time, say goodbye.

01:10:35 ◼   ► Arrivederci.

01:10:36 ◼   ► Cheerio.

01:10:37 ◼   ► Bye, y'all.