0:00:00[music]
0:00:07From Relay FM, this is Connected, episode 491.
0:00:11Today's show is brought to you by Zocdoc and Squarespace.
0:00:14My name is Mike Hurley, and I am joined by Federico Vichichi. Ciao, Federico.
0:00:18Hello, Mike. How are you?
0:00:20I'm feeling real good. I'm feeling real good.
0:00:23And we're also joined by Mr. Stephen Hackett. Hello, Stephen.
0:00:27Hey, Federico. Hey, Mike.
0:00:29Hello. I'm feeling real good because we just had what I think is like an all-time great pre-show
0:00:35for Connected members, where we spoke about the Yuzu emulator for Nintendo Switch,
0:00:40and we made some cases as to whether we think it is legal, moral, or none of the above.
0:00:44We are lawyers now.
0:00:46We are. Federico has been studying case law.
0:00:50I passed the bar, and it's all thanks to you, Connected Pro listeners.
0:00:53I think Federico said the phrase "legal precedent" 16 times during the 20-minute pre-show,
0:01:00which you can get by going to getconnectedpro.co, sign up, support the show, and get some fun content.
0:01:06Before we get to follow-up today...
0:01:08Have some follow-up. Follow me, boys.
0:01:09No, no, no, no. Hold on. Hold on. I have a surprise.
0:01:14So I set a goal for myself in 2024, and we are going to start working toward this goal here today in this episode.
0:01:26In 2024, I want you guys... I think it's time.
0:01:29We've been podcasting this year for 10 years together, right? Is that right? 10 years?
0:01:33I want you guys to finally learn some Italian.
0:01:37I am tired of having to talk in English all the time.
0:01:42OK. So we are going to start this process that will likely take months or years,
0:01:50but I want you, by the end of this year, to be able to speak, at the very least, some short Italian sentences.
0:01:57OK. Are you going to teach us?
0:01:59Yes. So we're going to start with the very basics, the alphabet.
0:02:05Today, we're going to start very small. I just need you guys to learn how to pronounce a portion of the Italian alphabet.
0:02:15Very, very simple. All right?
0:02:18And obviously, as you know, in the future, in the next few months, we'll go deeper and deeper into the realm of the Italian language.
0:02:26All right. So you guys are familiar with the alphabet?
0:02:29I assume A, B, C, D, E, F, D.
0:02:32I'm familiar with the alphabet's work, yes.
0:02:34OK. So one of the things you should know about Italian is that we pronounce the letters as we say them, which this will make sense.
0:02:46This will make sense. This will make sense later on. You'll see what I mean.
0:02:50You'll see what I mean. So A, B, C. It's A, B, C. Mike, you go first.
0:02:57A, B, C.
0:03:00OK, let's C, more like A, B, C.
0:03:03A, B, C. OK, go, Steven.
0:03:06A, B, C.
0:03:08No, no, it's A, no.
0:03:10Here's the thing. OK, I think I can say this because I feel like the statute of limitations is up.
0:03:17I had to take a foreign language in college.
0:03:20OK.
0:03:20And I really struggled. Like, I was a good student and I really struggled in high school and college in foreign languages, like Spanish, thinking it'd be the easiest.
0:03:30And it was so hard that my last college Spanish class, my wife, who was fluent in Spanish.
0:03:38Did a large amount of my online Spanish work for me, it was an online class and did the bulk of it.
0:03:46And so, OK, well, I'm just saying I'm just saying this is not my strong suit, so I'm going to struggle.
0:03:53Don't worry about it. We'll get you up to speed. So let's try again. It's not A, B, C. It's A, B, C.
0:04:01A, B, C.
0:04:04Yes, OK, next three.
0:04:07Oh, God, I thought we were just going to do three.
0:04:09We're doing the whole alphabet.
0:04:10No, we're not doing the whole alphabet. We're just doing six today.
0:04:14We're just doing six today and we'll do 12 next time and we'll go from there.
0:04:18D, A, and the next one is a bit tricky, F.
0:04:24OK, A, B, C.
0:04:28Yes, D, A, F.
0:04:31OK, it's D, D, A, F.
0:04:35More like F.
0:04:37F, A.
0:04:38Yes.
0:04:39All right.
0:04:40All right. Go, Steven.
0:04:41What happens if Mike is successful at this, but not successful in learning Romanian?
0:04:47I'm learning Romanian. I'm doing Duolingo. I'm on a 50-day streak.
0:04:52Ooh.
0:04:53Yeah, take that.
0:04:54What are the first six letters in the Romanian alphabet?
0:04:57Oh, we don't do the alphabet. Duolingo is not alphabet. You're learning to speak.
0:05:02You're not learning all of it.
0:05:04Yeah.
0:05:05OK.
0:05:06All right, Steven. D, A, F, A.
0:05:09D, A, F, A.
0:05:13Yeah, so it's not F, A. It's like F, A.
0:05:16That literally sounds the same to me.
0:05:18No, you said F, A. It sounds shorter than it is. It should be F, A. Like more pronounced.
0:05:26F, A.
0:05:27Yes. All right. So that concludes our very first short. We'll find a name for this segment, I guess.
0:05:36The six letters of the Italian alphabet. Thank you for collaborating, and we'll do this again next time.
0:05:45I have a potential topic, like a segment name. Teach Italian.
0:05:55OK. All right.
0:05:56Come on, right? Can't be better than that, right? Teach Italian?
0:06:00That's very good. Please, in your spare time, if you guys can, before next week,
0:06:05re-practice these six letters, and we'll go from there next week. Follow up.
0:06:13All right. So follow up. iOS 17.4 will indeed offer the ability for a developer to disable
0:06:21video reactions. It's in the release notes now. It says developers can control the default behavior
0:06:26of reactions. This is controlled per application, and user choice will override application declared
0:06:32defaults. So you'll be able to choose what you want to do otherwise, but you can have,
0:06:39by default, you can say no. You can turn it off for your app, but a user can choose to turn it
0:06:43on if they want to. So that will probably help with that kind of stuff. That's a good change.
0:06:49That's the only thing going on in 17.4, I think. I don't think there's anything else.
0:06:54Yeah, I think so. Nothing else. We got some AI follow up. First piece comes from Frederick.
0:07:01We were talking about Magic Eraser. It has been available in Google Photos on both iOS and Android
0:07:07since February 2023, but only for paying customers who have Google One. So if you want Google's Magic
0:07:13Eraser, it's possible to get it, but who wants to pay for Google One? You know what I'm saying?
0:07:17Anders says, with regards to the Apple research papers, we were talking about the strange
0:07:23formatting of them and nothing being in line. Well, it turns out they are not using Word,
0:07:29as we expect, but some variant of Latex. This is great for mathematical equations,
0:07:35but not so great for graphic design. Isn't it pronounced Latex?
0:07:38It is pronounced Latex. Well, then what's the next four? Why don't they put a K there?
0:07:42It's like Mac OS X. Yeah, but no one's like Mac OS X, are they?
0:07:49Right? There is no scenario in which an X is pronounced of a K sound. Why would they do this
0:07:56to me? Mac OS X. All right. I have now, oh, don't come at me and be like, oh, look in the chat. Like
0:08:06it's the Greek key letter. No, that is BS. That is BS. I will not accept that. No one knows this.
0:08:13I reject this. I'm furious now. Mike writes in to say with the discussion on episode 490 about a
0:08:21five millimeter iPad Pro. Do you think Apple would make an iPad Pro without a camera? The thinness
0:08:27about a case is nice, but it's ruined if it cannot lay flat on a desk because of a camera bump.
0:08:33Do people really care about this thing with laying devices flat on a desk?
0:08:37I had this thought and here I am to jump straight in with my counterpoint. Drawing on an iPad,
0:08:45like it is a normal thing to put it down and use an Apple pencil to draw, right? Like on a phone,
0:08:50no, it's fine. But the iPad is maybe the only device where like it actually would make it
0:08:56nicer if it was flat, like realistically nicer if it was flat. That's a good point. But we all know
0:09:04photography is the main use of iPad Pros. Yeah, definitely. Especially the 12.9 inch.
0:09:08Really. Oh, I got it. I can't believe we haven't thought about this before. Okay. Camera bump
0:09:17dongle. Okay. So you have a really, it has a built-in camera, but it's really bad. But if you
0:09:24want a good camera, you plug in this USB-C thing. It's aluminum. It kind of wraps around the edge of
0:09:29the iPad and you get a good camera. You should make a Kickstarter for it. I should. Who needs
0:09:37calendars? Yeah, exactly. I'm so mad about this latex thing. I'm so angry about it because
0:09:45everyone in the discourse, like all of my computer science professors, I don't care. Why did they put
0:09:51the X there? It makes me like an idiot. You know, like I don't like this. I'm really mad about this.
0:09:55Why did they do this? As soon as I saw this follow-up I realized, oh yes, of course they're
0:10:00using LaTeX. Like, yeah. Uh, I wish I had thought of it live. That's my shame. Not that I don't know
0:10:06how to pronounce it, which is weird. Cause normally that's my problem. There's an entire part of the
0:10:12Wikipedia entry for pronouncing it. Of course there is. Why? But like, I'm so angry. Because the thing
0:10:22is, right, here's the thing. It doesn't look like the Greek character, right? Cause it's an X, but
0:10:27like a weird X and it's like drops down, right? It's just, I'm just so mad. I'm just so mad about
0:10:33it. Shoot on in the discord with some beautiful Greek alphabet, which I can also read by the way.
0:10:39That's that is excellent. I hadn't seen those letters in, in a few years. And this is proving
0:10:45my point. It doesn't, if it looked like that, right? Like if the X in LaTeX looked like that,
0:10:51I wouldn't call it LaTeX. I'd be like, oh, something weird is going on here. You know,
0:10:54it's an X. Okay. It's okay. Mike, now, you know, it's LaTeX. This made me look like an idiot.
0:11:03I'm very annoyed about this. Yeah. So the next night, the next time you got to go out and buy
0:11:08something, you'd be like, Hey, uh, do you guys have any LaTeX suits? I have a LaTeX allergy.
0:11:14Can we talk about showers some more? Yes. Chris wrote in and said, I wanted to share that I use
0:11:24a MagSafe magnetic mount to hold my phone in the shower. And then I have an old set of beats fit
0:11:30pro that I wear while showering. I take them out at the end to finish washing my ears and then
0:11:36try them, dry them and myself off. Look, gang, just take 10 minutes where you don't have a
0:11:43podcast. Obviously I'm a podcast. All right. Like I want you to listen to our shows. You don't need
0:11:48to do this. You know, like it's fine. It's just take a few minutes to think to yourself. Jeremy
0:11:53writes in to say, hang on, hang on. We just can't blow past this. All right, Chris, Chris, listen
0:12:02to me directly. He's probably in the shower or the moment. Chris, Chris, you need to order some new
0:12:09shampoo wearing. Look, I'm a podcast. Look, I understand like you need, I time with your thoughts.
0:12:16I have other times a day for that, right? It's the headphones. It's the earbuds in the shower
0:12:23that I don't like it. That's the problem. That's where it's gone too far. I don't mind. I don't
0:12:27mind a good shower speaker. I think that's totally fine. Like I said, I've got one. It's the beats
0:12:32fit pro wearing in the shower that, that, that for a couple of reasons. One like, yeah, you got to
0:12:39take them out to wash your ears. They're wet. Aren't you going to drop them all the time?
0:12:42But even with a shower speaker, I can still welcome. My bathroom is tiny. I can just see
0:12:49when the door opens, but I can hear, right? I can like, if one of my kids needs something,
0:12:54I can still hear them with, with things in my ears, in the shower, I feel like you're too
0:12:58isolated, right? Like you need some connection to what's going on outside of the shower. And I feel
0:13:06like there's too much isolation here and it feels icky. And I want to send you a shower speaker. I
0:13:11think don't, don't use beef. It's pro anymore. Please. Jeremy says I too have the JBL clip two
0:13:19in the shower. Uh, Jeremy felt the need to tell us that the JBL clip two was blue. Uh, I also have a
0:13:26mag safe ring on the shower wall, clear of water danger to put my phone in the shower. I watch
0:13:34YouTube, Hulu and stuff like that. Hulu in the shower. Only murderers in the shower. You know,
0:13:41Hulu's greatest show. I'm okay. Again, listening is fine. The phone should not come in the shower
0:13:49with you, right? This was the whole thing that started this a hundred years ago when this topic
0:13:54started before it took over our podcast. I needed a thing to be able to put my phone on the counter
0:14:00next to the sink. So I got the nomad leather back thing, which I'm still loving, but it can't come
0:14:06in the shower with you. That's too much. How did we end up here? Why is there a temu.com link?
0:14:12We're not putting that link in the show notes. I refuse to put that in the CMS. Go to Amazon.
0:14:17Why are we doing this? This is the last time. This is, this is the last time. I don't know
0:14:22if it is. I'm not done. The next piece of follow-up comes from Nick who says, I am surprised. And this
0:14:28is hilarious to me, the word surprised in this follow-up. I'm surprised that the three hosts
0:14:33did not originally land on the same conclusion I did for podcasts in the shower. I use a HomePod.
0:14:38The outside, the fabric of the HomePod, it's like a loofah, right? Like you're having a great time.
0:14:52What about the electricity part of that? It supports airplay is voice controlled and supports
0:14:58home intercom. Ideally, the white one looks best in the bathroom. Fiddling with a cheap battery
0:15:03power, Bluetooth, water speakers, or balancing your iPhone seems barbaric. Now I'm assuming,
0:15:09right. That the HomePod is not in the shower cubicle because I think Nick would be dead by
0:15:14now. I mean, look, all of mine were outside of the shower and all three of my big ones were dead now.
0:15:19So yeah. And again, like I will say, I don't have an issue with people listening to music
0:15:25or podcasts in the shower. For me, if you are going further than phone in the shower with you,
0:15:33which I'm fine with, or simple speaker, I think it's too far, right? Like I think when we're
0:15:37getting MagSafe rings and stuff like that, it's like we're gone too far using headphones. But this
0:15:42is the reason why we've got some anonymous feedback who said, regarding the dangers of
0:15:47phone in the shower, my wife is a manager of a HR company and twice in the last year has had to write
0:15:53disciplinary actions because employees have accidentally joined video calls while in the
0:15:58shower. After much deliberation, improper work attire has been the correct terminology for the
0:16:08offense. The offenders seem to have accidentally hit the camera button during an active call
0:16:13while otherwise occupied. What is wrong with people? What is wrong with people? This is so
0:16:19much worse than the video reactions in macOS. This is why working from home should be illegal.
0:16:23If this is what you're doing, you have lost your working from home privileges.
0:16:32If you're supposed to be on a meeting and instead you're in the shower, no, you're not allowed
0:16:38anymore. Well, maybe it was an unexpected call, right? It's not like, oh, I have a meeting with
0:16:44my boss, let me go get in the shower. I've read this, someone, you know, look, people just make
0:16:50teams calls and slack calls and you accidentally pick up. Don't take your phone in the shower.
0:16:54Just don't, just don't do it. Don't do this. Improper work attire. Improper work attire.
0:17:00Unbelievable. We all know, we all know there are specific reasons to have your phone in the shower,
0:17:10right? And like to be on a call, like if you want to be on a phone call in the shower and what you,
0:17:14that's good for you if you want to do that, but never in a work environment. You know what I'm
0:17:18saying? Not in a work environment. Wait, what? Look, if you want to take a phone call with a
0:17:25loved one while you're in the shower, that's up to you. Oh, sure. Okay. Sure. Okay. Sure.
0:17:31Maybe you're traveling. I don't know what you're doing, right? Like that's on you.
0:17:35Why can people just, you know, sing in the shower or something? Like it's, you know, old school,
0:17:43like just, or, or, or be alone with your thoughts. Yeah. I get great thinking done when I'm in the
0:17:50shower. Me too. Yeah. Great thinking. Yeah. Now I'm just going to think about how upset I am about
0:17:57LaTeX. That's what I'm going to, when I take my shower this evening, that's what I'm going to be
0:18:02thinking about. I'm not going to be able to get this out of my head. I'm so embarrassed. You know
0:18:07what I once read about the, uh, the, the creator of the LaTeX syntax. Um, he pronounced, I believe
0:18:15is a very tall guy. So, Oh yeah. Taller than me. Possibly. I expect. Right. Yeah. It's all of them.
0:18:22Apple music in the shower. A good use for shower speaker is Apple music. Uh, Federico tell us about
0:18:34this new feature and then tell us what it lacks. Yeah. So today they, uh, Apple music started
0:18:40rolling out these new mix. It's called the heavy rotation mix, which is different from previous,
0:18:47uh, heavy rotation things they have done. Uh, heavy rotation, I believe used to be,
0:18:51or still is a section of the home view. This one is one of their algorithmic mixes.
0:18:57However, uh, unlike their previous mixes, such as the, um, uh, what's, what's it called? A new,
0:19:04new music mix, uh, my favorites mix. Uh, do they have also one called like, uh, my friends mix and
0:19:10my chill mix or something? Yeah. There's friends mix, chill mix. I think there's like some kind of
0:19:15like workout. Yeah. Like, uh, get up, feel good, something mix, um, heavy rotation. You said that
0:19:24one. I've got my station, my discovery station. Those are the radio stations, which are different
0:19:29from mixes mixes or basically get up, get up, get up, get up, chill mix, chill mix.
0:19:35So heavy rotation mix is a, a, uh, as a collection of songs you have put in every rotation,
0:19:44uh, supposedly from the past 24 hours, because this one is the first algorithmic mix to be
0:19:51refreshed on a daily basis. Um, I think it's a good idea. Spotify has been doing lots of daily
0:19:58mixes for years now of all kinds. Um, so Apple music now also doing a daily mix. Um, I think
0:20:05it's a good idea. The one thing I noticed, which I believe is a bug at the moment and it needs to
0:20:09be fixed is that this heavy rotation mix, I can say for certainty that for me, it picked up songs
0:20:18that I listened to while I had enabled a focus filter that turns off music listening activity.
0:20:27So if you recall, that was a feature that was rolled out in 17.2 or 17.3, the ability to
0:20:33create a focus mode with a focus filter for Apple music to say, uh, when I'm listening to music and
0:20:39I'm in the sleep focus or I'm in the driving focus or something, do not count this music activity
0:20:46against my recommendations against what people will see that I listened to and all that sort of
0:20:51stuff. Uh, but in this heavy rotation mix, I found my sleep music, which is the, you know, the music
0:20:57I listen to when I go to bed. And I don't want that to count against my recommendations. And yet
0:21:03it ended up here. So hopefully this, uh, the algorithm will be fixed here, not to count those
0:21:09songs, but otherwise, um, I think it's a good idea. And, uh, it just, uh, maybe, uh, maybe about time
0:21:16for the music app to get some sort of refresh because that, uh, that, uh, section of mixes and
0:21:22stations is getting kind of confusing right now with all these options. Spotify has a dedicated
0:21:28page, for example, for all your algorithmic mixes here, they're just a sort of put in a section of
0:21:35the home tab and maybe there could be a better design to collect them all. Uh, we've seen the
0:21:41discord from Jen. There is a singing in the shower playlist from Apple music. There you go. That's the
0:21:47playlist that exists too. If you want that. Yeah. Is this a matter of Apple not remembering all the
0:21:57features it has? Like I think so. Yeah. Cause this happens. I actually, it happens quite a bit. Look
0:22:03at the sports app, like no live activities, no widgets, no iPad or Mac support. Like I just,
0:22:11I understand it was something like that. They wanted to get it out for the beginning of MLS
0:22:15play and it was at accused baby. So it got fast tracked. It seems, but something like this,
0:22:22it's like, well, the music team supports these other features. It just, it, it kind of,
0:22:26it kind of runs me the wrong way for a company that prize itself on the details, you know?
0:22:31No, no, no. So, um, hope it gets fixed, but otherwise, uh, I think it's really a nice feature.
0:22:40The other thing I'll say here is does it matter with, I mean, if this is the,
0:22:47the heavy rotation, this is music you listen to a lot. Like, wouldn't that be fine to go back into
0:22:52your, your history and everything because it's music you've already listened to a bunch. It's
0:22:56not like you're off exploring something new and you don't want to accidentally be labeled as,
0:23:01you know, someone who listens to a type of music you don't. Well, no, but if, but if for example,
0:23:06my kid likes to listen to the frozen soundtrack 20 times when we're driving, uh, would you consider
0:23:12that a heavy rotation for me? Okay. If there's a setting, you should respect that setting. I agree
0:23:19with that. I just, I didn't know since this playlist is like an amplification, but yes, I,
0:23:23I see what you're saying now. Or if you like, you know, you're, you listen to a piece of music on
0:23:29repeat for four hours while you're writing, like, it's not like you always want that to show up when
0:23:35you're like joking. It's like a different thing for some people, I guess. This episode of connected
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0:25:34Our friend Greg Pierce of Draff's fame has laid tech. I think Draff
0:25:46probably supports it. New app called Simple Scan, and it's great. This all unfolded on Macedon.
0:25:55Greg said he needed something to scan some things. He wrote a little app, and I had a
0:25:59bunch of other people told him, "Please make this an app on the App Store." Yes, you can scan
0:26:04documents into Apple Notes. Yes, you can scan in the Files app, but there are other times that you
0:26:12want to scan something and you want to just send it as an email, or maybe you don't want to open
0:26:18the Files app because it makes you sad, and Greg's Simple Scan app does just that. There's a handful
0:26:24of options. You can set your format to PDF or images. You can turn OCR on or off, and there's
0:26:31some other things you can do like set up custom email destinations like scan this and send it to
0:26:36Federico. I think this is awesome because Apple's solution is good, but a little bit limited, and
0:26:43this coming from Greg who makes Draff's, this is just Draff's for scanning. You open it and you
0:26:49pick your destination, and then you scan your thing. I'm glad he built it because a lot of
0:26:55third-party scanning apps have felt icky over the years with business models or the one my wife
0:27:02uses. I forget the name of it, and she likes it. It's fine, whatever. It syncs with iCloud,
0:27:07but it's like a whole document library inside the scanning app. I'm like, that's fine, but for what
0:27:14I want most of the time is scan something to email it to somebody, which I have to do a fair amount
0:27:19for work. I get a scary letter in the mail. I scan it, send it to our CPA, and he says, "No,
0:27:25you're getting scammed. Don't answer that," or whatever. That sort of use case is pretty common
0:27:31for me, and so I signed up for this immediately. It's $4.99 a year or $20 lifetime. Greg has a long
0:27:40history of building excellent iOS apps, and I was like, "Yeah, lifetime. Let's go. This is now on my
0:27:46phone." I love this idea because it's the kind of utility that doesn't do anything revolutionary.
0:27:54It's just a much more intuitive and simplified version of a feature that exists elsewhere,
0:28:01and here it's being made like a dedicated utility that does just that. If there's one piece of
0:28:07feedback that I could sort of file on the show, I would love to- Use it in the shower.
0:28:16No, I don't scan documents in the shower, but I would love to create- Maybe somebody out there is
0:28:24like, "No, I do it all the time." I'm convinced now one of our listeners scans their documents
0:28:28in the shower. You need the humidity to smooth the paper out. Now, you got to work fast though,
0:28:33which is why this is a good product because some of these other scanning apps are slow,
0:28:37and this thing is just like you got to get in there just as the paper is smooth but not ruined.
0:28:43Yeah, that's why you need simple scan because it's so fast. It's shower proof. No, but I would
0:28:48love to create favorite folders so that the next time I scan something, I need to always go to my
0:28:58scanned documents folder in iCloud Drive. That's something that you can do on iOS. You can pick
0:29:02a folder beforehand. That sort of becomes a bookmark of sorts, and then the next time I scan,
0:29:09the app would save the PDF directly inside that folder without me having to pick that folder
0:29:14manually every time. So that would be nice to have. But yeah, I think a really cool example of
0:29:20a developer looking for something that didn't exist, builds it for himself, becomes a product
0:29:26for sale. Really nice story, I think. Every time someone says "simple scan," I hear "simple plan."
0:29:32That's where my brain is. Do you know I saw them live in Viterbo when I was 15?
0:29:43You know, that's wild to me that they made it out to you. You know, like I'm from Canada.
0:29:51Let's talk about PWAs and iOS 17.4. Okay. This is a topic I have brought to the show today.
0:30:03I think I'm in a bit of a spicy mood today. It's all to do with latex. So as part of the
0:30:09changes coming in iOS 17.4 in Europe to comply with the DMA rules, Apple has removed the support
0:30:18in Europe for PWAs on the iPhone. PWAs, progressive web apps, or as I think of them, programs of
0:30:24attitude. Essentially, what this allows you to do is add a web app on your iPhone to your home
0:30:36screen, but then it acts like an app. So when you tap on the icon, it opens full screen. It looks
0:30:43like an app. It doesn't have like web browser Chrome around it. And then over time, they've
0:30:47added features like push notifications you can receive from PWA. And it has some form of reliable
0:30:54storage. So the app remembers states it has data like an app would like a native app. The PWA does
0:31:01as well. But in 17.4, Apple has removed the additional functions that a PWA can have on the
0:31:08iPhone, essentially reducing it back to being like a bookmark to open a web page in your chosen
0:31:14browser. Many people in the community are upset about this and believe that Apple is doing it to
0:31:20make the experience, to make PWAs a worse experience than using an app. I'm seeing this
0:31:29spoken about a lot. The term malicious compliance has been used to describe what Apple has been
0:31:34doing. That Apple is using the DMA as a cover to remove PWAs because there is a feeling that like,
0:31:42I think in the PWA community that Apple doesn't want them to exist because it allows for a new
0:31:51form of distribution of applications with Apple taking no money from them.
0:31:56It's very clear Apple wants money from all apps. Apple have given the following statement on this.
0:32:03I'm going to quote from 9 to 5. Apple explains that it would have to build an entirely new
0:32:08integration architecture that does not currently exist in iOS to address the complex security and
0:32:14privacy concerns associated with web apps using alternative browser engines. This work was not
0:32:20practical to undertake given the other demands of the DMA and the very low user adoption of home
0:32:27screen web apps, Apple explains. And so to comply with the DMA's requirements, we had to remove the
0:32:33home screen web apps feature in the European Union. EU users will be able to continue accessing
0:32:39websites directly from their home screen through a bookmark with minimal impact to their functionality
0:32:45Apple continues. That part is not true at the end. That's just not true. The functions are being
0:32:50removed, like the storage, the push notifications. I don't know what everything else in that
0:32:54statement reads fine. I don't know why they say that part at the end. As you would imagine,
0:32:59complaints on this have been made to the European Commission and they say that they are looking into
0:33:04it. What do you boys think about this? I don't understand, and maybe you guys can explain this to
0:33:09me, why the feature had to be taken away because of the DMA. So I have a thought on this and like
0:33:17I've done a bit of reading on this. Essentially, so they had to take it, well Apple
0:33:25said they had to take it away because they are not going to do the work to allow say Chrome
0:33:31and Mozilla to do this. Like if you choose Chrome as your default browser and you get the browser
0:33:35ballot, you then can't use WebKit from Apple right to power the PWAs. That's kind of the thinking.
0:33:42And it seems like Apple is not willing to do the work to allow for PWAs to work no matter what type
0:33:49of browser you use. That's a decision that they have made. And I think they've then had to remove
0:33:54it because then Safari would have this feature and it would have an edge over Chrome. It would
0:34:00be better than Chrome. So if you stuck with Safari, then you could have PWAs. But if you chose
0:34:07Chrome, you can't. So I think they've basically they have to neutralize the impact. They're not
0:34:13actually allowed to have one web browser be better than any of the other web browsers. Is that codified
0:34:20in the DMA? I think I've read that that's the case. Like they can't allow for benefits to Safari
0:34:29over Chrome. Like they have to neutralize them, right? So this is from 9 to the Mac. The DMA
0:34:38requires that all browsers have equality, meaning that Apple can't favor Safari and WebKit over
0:34:43third-party browser engines. Therefore, because it can't offer home screen web apps for third-party
0:34:47browsers, it also can't offer support via Safari. Thanks for that. It just seems
0:34:55my thought is that it seems a bit odd to me that you go to such great lengths to build all these
0:35:03features that the DMA requires you to. And the one thing you fail to implement is arguably something
0:35:14that would have allowed a lot of web apps to be used locally on an iOS device in full screen
0:35:21with app-like behaviors and features. Like it seems a bit odd. Yeah, but if that was the case,
0:35:28then why do PWAs have any support currently like in the rest of the world? What do you mean with
0:35:33that? Well, like PWAs work everywhere else. It's not like they've gotten rid of them everywhere
0:35:37else. So like that threat still exists in other places. Sure. So like if that was the case, then
0:35:44like why did they introduce them in the first place and have made them better over time if
0:35:50they don't want them to exist? Right, and so if they want them to exist, why didn't they build it?
0:35:55I genuinely, okay, so I am taking Apple's comments at face value that like
0:36:05is a minuscule percentage of users are actually using this feature,
0:36:08and they had to build so much they deprioritized it. So they didn't have time basically? No,
0:36:14it's not time. They didn't want to do this work. Like that's how I look at it. Like they had so
0:36:19many things to do. They didn't want to do this. I hope they will do it. Like that they haven't done
0:36:25it now. So if Apple is not, if Apple is not maliciously complying here, I think they would
0:36:31have, they would have, they could have just said, look, we deprioritize this. It's coming later,
0:36:37but we are going to do it. Case closed. Like, unless there's something else. They don't make
0:36:42those kinds of statements, right? But, but now, but now you just caused a lot of controversy and
0:36:48the EU to look into this again. Yeah, that's true. But I mean, it's not like they haven't caused
0:36:54enough controversy in the EU looking into things with even just their response to the VMA. I think
0:36:59it is a shame to remove them from Safari. Like I think it's a shame to move them at all, but I do
0:37:04believe that the usage of PWAs on iOS is really low. Like I do believe this to be the case.
0:37:09About why is that low? Like, like, yeah, I think you're right. But also arguably you could say that
0:37:14it's been low because Apple has been very slow to adopt modern PWA features. I just don't, I just
0:37:20don't think people are going to do it. It's that sort of problem. It's like the chicken leg problem
0:37:24where like, yeah, adoption is low because really like, you know, you only recently they like,
0:37:31was it last year that they added support for push notifications? Yeah. I mean like, yeah,
0:37:39that usage is low because obviously you always pushed for the app store instead of the web.
0:37:47Like, so yeah, you know, not a shocker that usage is low. That is a very good point. There is one
0:37:54thing I wanted to just mention here though. Like a lot of people are calling PWAs the biggest threat
0:37:58to the app store, which is why Apple's getting rid of them. Like I'm seeing that time used a lot,
0:38:02which is, I mean, it's funny to me because like, I think the biggest threat to the app store
0:38:07is alternate app stores, which is what's happening in the countries where P, like places where PWAs
0:38:14have been removed. I think the biggest threat to the app store is Apple itself. Yeah, I love it.
0:38:19Yes. I love it. Like, look, I find this whole thing to be, uh, I can see why people are frustrated
0:38:25about it. I do. I really, I personally take Apple at face value here that like, it's a small
0:38:34percentage of users that use it. They haven't done it. And that's that, like, I want them to do more,
0:38:41but I, I don't see this as like some mastermind scheme to neutralize this like oncoming threat.
0:38:50Yeah. I don't think that. I think you're right. I don't think that either. Uh, but as with many
0:38:55other cases of Apple in the press, I think sometimes they just have a bad way to get their
0:39:04message across. Yeah. Cause I, I expect they probably, somebody is probably working on this.
0:39:12Like someone at Apple is probably working on this. They could just say what you suggested, right?
0:39:20Like we're working on this, but it is not going to make 17.4 and to comply, we've had to remove it.
0:39:26They do it for other things. I mean, Tim Cook literally said, we're going to have AI features
0:39:32later this year. They pre-announce their accessibility stuff weeks before the OS is
0:39:38unveiled. It wouldn't kill anyone to say, yeah, we're going to do this, but it's coming later.
0:39:42Like, you know, it's no big deal. It's not like they are unveiling the, you know, the next,
0:39:48you know, Apple hardware or something like, just say that it's a feature coming later
0:39:52and nobody gets upset. I don't get it. They want your money. That's for sure. Right. And they will
0:39:58do anything that they can to get the money. But I just, I feel like, I don't feel like that's what's
0:40:05going on here. Like I really don't think they're removing PWAs because they consider PWAs a threat
0:40:11because if that was the case, why do they exist outside of here? Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's
0:40:18a good point. And I think you're right. I don't think they're doing this maliciously. The timing
0:40:23is, you know, the timing makes you think that, makes you skeptical. But if you consider how
0:40:29they're still available, you know, outside of the EU, I think you make a good point.
0:40:34And I think the company culture right now, they are so begrudgingly doing this, right? Like they
0:40:39are so begrudgingly going along with the DMA. I think that they are doing the bare minimum amount
0:40:46of work that they have to do. And the easiest way to deal with the PWA thing is just to turn it off
0:40:56than to build a function for Mozilla and Google and Microsoft to have their own PWAs on the iPhone.
0:41:05Yeah. So they're just doing that. Like they, I wouldn't call it malicious compliance in this
0:41:09scenario. It is like bare minimum compliance is what Apple is going for with this specific thing,
0:41:14I think. That's my read on the situation anyway. It's like a mom, I don't want to brush my teeth
0:41:20compliance. Yeah. And so instead you're just like, you just like take the brush. You don't even put
0:41:26toothpaste on it. Just water one in one out. Done. That's it. Yep. Yep. Yep.
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0:43:26We now come to a sad moment in the podcast where we say goodbye to a project that we have talked
0:43:32about just about the whole run of this podcast. I went back, and we'll get into this, I did some
0:43:39history digging through what was once called Project Titan, which was Apple's initiative,
0:43:47or initiatives, I think it was more than one, looking into at some point some combination of
0:43:54an electric vehicle, a self-driving vehicle, and/or software to run a self-driving vehicle.
0:44:04At one point they weren't going to make hardware, other points they were hiring people who knew how
0:44:08shocks and brakes worked. So the big news is, I'm sure people have seen this,
0:44:13Mark Gurman reported on Bloomberg that Apple has canceled its "decade-long effort to build
0:44:21an electric car." So this is what Gurman said, this is a quote, "The two executives told staffers
0:44:27that the project will begin winding down and that many employees on the car team, known as the
0:44:33Special Projects Group, or SPG," this is me now speaking, not Gurman, Project Titan was a pretty
0:44:39cool name, Special Projects Group, pretty boring. "So those employees will be shifted to the
0:44:44Artificial Intelligence Division under executive John Gendrea," who we spoke about last week,
0:44:50"those employees will focus on generative AI projects, an increasingly key priority for the
0:44:57company." A side effect of this seems that our boy Kevin Lynch is now reporting to John Gendrea
0:45:04as a result of this. Is he our boy?
0:45:07He seems like a cool guy. He seems like a cool guy, but like...
0:45:13Kevin's our boy, Kevin's our boy. I could see Kevin coming out, you know, for dinner with us,
0:45:19you know, having a good time. I have nothing against him, I just wasn't sure if I missed a
0:45:23thing where he became our boy. Kevin's got our sort of vibe.
0:45:27I think he does. Remember he showed up at a keynote with long hair all of a sudden?
0:45:30It's like, yeah, let's go. Special project, that was your special project.
0:45:35Yeah, he knows about special projects. So a little history for you, because I started
0:45:41looking at this and I was like, okay, we talked about this literally the entire run of our podcast
0:45:45and I just had forgotten how much it happened. So just, just give me a second.
0:45:51Project Titan was kicked off in 2014 with approval from the newly minted Tim Cook. Tim Cook could
0:45:58only be in charge about three years at this point. This was right at the same time the
0:46:03Apple watch was announced and coming out. So about that timeframe, Apple was rumored at the time to
0:46:09have hired Johan Jungwirth, a former president and chief executive from Mercedes-Benz R&D,
0:46:17North America. Out of the gate, hiring car people, right?
0:46:22Okay. Then in 2015,
0:46:24I had forgotten about this and I reread it, like fell out of my chair. In 2015, Apple board member
0:46:30Mickey Drexler told an interviewer that Steve Jobs had a car on Apple's radar. This is a quote,
0:46:39"Steve Jobs, if he had lived, was going to design an iCar," said Drexler. "I think cars
0:46:45have an extraordinary opportunity for cool design." What a sentence. What a sentence.
0:46:52iCar.
0:46:52iCar. It's a different time, you know, different, you know, now it'd be Apple Car Pro.
0:46:56Later that year, Apple started taking meetings with the state of California over self-driving
0:47:04regulations, thinking that they were going to be putting tech on the roads at some point,
0:47:09wanted to make sure the state of California was, all that was up to speed. In 2016,
0:47:16Bob Mansfield returned from retirement.
0:47:19Hi, Bob.
0:47:19Hi, Bob.
0:47:22Came back from retirement to lead Project Titan and was given a quote,
0:47:26"Fall 2017 deadline to report to Tim Cook if the project was viable." So this is a couple of years
0:47:33in. Maybe there's not much to show for it. As you go through this, it seems like maybe Bob blew
0:47:39through that deadline.
0:47:40Yeah, that was 2017. It's now 2024, in case you've been asleep for five years. Bob Mansfield
0:47:50previously had been involved with Apple's other hardware products, right? Like he was in a bunch
0:47:55of videos about MacBook Pros and stuff, so he had the chops, came back. I'm not sure what happened
0:48:00here, but we blew through 2017. And about this time, like the AI stuff we spoke about on our
0:48:07previous episode, about this time, research started coming out from people at Apple about
0:48:14self-driving cars, about lidar systems, camera vision, computer vision, that sort of thing. So
0:48:21there was work going on, sort of academic work in these areas that very clearly was going to
0:48:26be tied to this product. In January of 2018, Apple registered about two dozen self-driving cars with
0:48:35the state of California. Pictures of these were all over the place. They weren't Apple
0:48:40cars, right? They were like some vans. I think there were some Lexus SUVs, I think, if I remember
0:48:45correctly.
0:48:45I think they had Jaguar. I think they were using Jaguar.
0:48:48Maybe. All white, of course. And then a bunch of sensors and stuff on it. Other companies have
0:48:56done this a lot. Also in here, I didn't put it in my notes, but I read it. Also in here,
0:49:00there was a lawsuit about a guy who left Apple and apparently stole a bunch of self-driving
0:49:04data. That happens all the time in these car companies. It's wild.
0:49:07In 2018 and 2019, Apple was meeting with a bunch of car companies. And this is not the
0:49:16only time. This was a time period where looking at people reporting on this, looking at LinkedIn
0:49:23and looking at job postings, Apple was hiring people with car suspension engineering work
0:49:30under their belts.
0:49:31I think this was when it was also rumored that they were going to buy Kia.
0:49:35This was in there too, because they were also in South Korea a bunch talking to Kia and
0:49:41other companies about manufacturing and maybe purchase.
0:49:45Which at the time seemed silly, but now if you look at what Kia's transition to electric,
0:49:53yep, they're incredible. They make such great cars. And so at the time it seemed funny because
0:49:58Kia were maybe more of a budget car and the cars weren't very good looking in a lot of
0:50:04instances. But now they're crushing it. The logo is funny, but that was also a good thing.
0:50:13But it was good to change it, right? Because now they have a new brand.
0:50:17The new logo is pretty bad though.
0:50:18KN is one.
0:50:19It's bad.
0:50:21But yeah, they make great cars.
0:50:23And they are, at least in North America, killing it on the electric car front. A lot of good
0:50:28options from Kia and its sibling brands.
0:50:312018 also brought the hire of Doug Field. We talked about this on Connected. He was formerly
0:50:38the SVP of engineering at Tesla. A job that I think later would go to Chris Latner, who
0:50:46invented Swift. He had a short stint in this job at Tesla or a job like this at Tesla.
0:50:52So Doug Field comes over.
0:50:54They just high five as they switch, you know?
0:50:57Yeah, exactly. In 2019, Apple bought a company called Drive AI. This was an AI self-driving
0:51:07vehicle startup. They, according to reporting at the Verge, were getting ready to go out
0:51:12of business and Apple scooped him up on the cheap. Apple bought other companies in this
0:51:16time, but this I think was maybe one of the most notable ones. Definitely one of the more
0:51:21public ones.
0:51:21Right before COVID, Bob goes back into retirement.
0:51:26What did he know?
0:51:28Yeah.
0:51:29As I'm getting out of here, work from home, forget that. I got a podcast shower lined
0:51:36up, you know? What do you think Bob listens to in the shower?
0:51:40The sound of car engines.
0:51:42Maybe. Remember there was also a report like Apple owned this building somewhere in California?
0:51:46People were like, we hear engines racing around at night. It's like, okay.
0:51:49I don't remember that, but I love that.
0:51:52Dude, I've read so much about Apple's car stuff over the last two days. It's just like,
0:51:57my brain is full of it. So John Andrea took over. And then in 2021, it was reported that
0:52:04Kevin Lynch was in charge. So there was a lot of shuffling going on. And in that shuffling,
0:52:09Doug Field from Tesla left and went to Ford, which is now building EVs.
0:52:15A lot of movement. Around this time, a deadline of 2024 was floated. So I guess 2017 didn't
0:52:22work out. 2024, we're going to do something. And this whole time, right, there's reporting
0:52:27again, Apple's going to make an electric self-driving car. They had really ambitious
0:52:34goals about the self-driving is broken into levels, like levels one through five. And
0:52:38basically, as you move up the stack, they become more and more aware of self-driving.
0:52:44There were rumors of no steering wheel for a while, right? That was what they wanted
0:52:47to make, a car with no wheel. Yeah. Who would? Yeah. A yoke or something? No, no, nothing.
0:52:52And then there were also reports that, okay, the self-driving stuff is harder than we thought.
0:53:00Who would have guessed? And they were maybe looking at something more like GM Super Cruise,
0:53:07which is really highly reviewed. But Super Cruise self-driving technology only works on
0:53:13highways mapped out by GM and then fed into their system. So it's not like, it's not like
0:53:21something like Tesla full self-driving where it can kind of do it wherever. And I'm not,
0:53:28we're not going down that road, just saying that sentence and moving on. GM Super Cruise
0:53:33is only on select highways. And maybe Apple wasn't happy with that. But after all of this,
0:53:39right, this is a very like spicy decade long story. And now Gherman says it's over, a bunch
0:53:46of people are going to go work on AI. No doubt some people will lose their jobs. And that sucks,
0:53:51especially like in the background of all this is this kind of meta story that EV demand in
0:53:57North America is really drying up. And so some of these people, it's a bad time to be let go
0:54:04from a company like this, which is unfortunate, but that's where we are. And I'd love to know
0:54:10what you all think about it. I definitely have thoughts, but that's kind of the background.
0:54:14Well, it's a relief to start with because now none of us have to buy a car that Apple makes
0:54:23because, you know, you think it was bad that we had the Biodivision Pro.
0:54:27It was bad. Yeah.
0:54:29Let's start with $90,000 car, right? That would have been unfortunate for everybody involved.
0:54:34Can't have John ship it to me. You know, that could have been.
0:54:37Yeah. John is the most relieved, I think.
0:54:39Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is something that like, I kind of never really cared for it. So like,
0:54:45I'm not really, you know, it would have been fun to talk about. Like there would have been
0:54:51interesting, weird stuff to talk about with this, but it doesn't like, I'm kind of,
0:54:57I'm kind of happy they're not doing it. I don't think that this was a good idea to be honest.
0:55:02I mean, honestly, was this ever really going to happen? Like.
0:55:06I think there is another timeline where, where yes, it was going to, but I just think it,
0:55:12it didn't take off. I don't know. Maybe it's just me,
0:55:17but I've always felt very ambivalent about the idea of the computer company now making a car.
0:55:24And I mean sure there's, there's a, you know, the counter argument will be, but like for example,
0:55:31Tesla used to be, you know, brand new company, never made a car before. And then they made a car
0:55:36and now they are arguably readers in the EV marketplace. So it is possible for a
0:55:44company that has never done cars before to do cars.
0:55:47Especially now that cars are just more and more technology than they are motors.
0:55:53Exactly. But still like, I've always felt very like, would I really drive an Apple car?
0:56:02Like would I feel safe, you know, from a company that, you know, makes smartphones and laptops and
0:56:10now headsets like, okay, now you want me to drive your car?
0:56:13It's going to drive you, man. That's the whole, that's the whole idea.
0:56:17I am on the record as a, as a self-driving non-believer.
0:56:23Because I am confident when I say this, it's never going to work in Italy.
0:56:27So but Hey, maybe it works in the American highways. Great. But yeah.
0:56:34You know, life's a highway. But I would like to counterpoint there.
0:56:41I have felt that way too, that like the idea of a self-driving car seems bananas,
0:56:49but then I think about large language models and it feels...
0:56:55It's going to hallucinate you right off the highway.
0:56:58No, but like, if you just think about that technology, right? Like it's so impressive
0:57:04what it can do. Like, you know, it can take in a bunch of data and can make something new out of
0:57:12it. And I don't know, there's just something about like that advancement in technology makes me feel,
0:57:17I feel less skeptical of the idea that a large set of data couldn't achieve that problem.
0:57:28Have you ever seen a lady in Rome traffic chase you and honking
0:57:32her car at you and chasing you for several minutes?
0:57:36But the self-driving car wouldn't do that. You know, it's not going to honk and chase.
0:57:39What I'm saying is that, is that there are some
0:57:42locales where traffic and driving is so wildly unpredictable and you do things that are arguably,
0:57:53you know, illegal when you're driving that it is from my perspective. Yeah. Oh, by the way, Zach,
0:58:00yes, this happened to me. I mean, we all assumed that that happened. It was happening to you or
0:58:05you were happening it? To me, to me. So we're driving, I'm driving, Sylvia's in the passenger
0:58:11seat, the dog's in the back seat and I'm just driving Sylvia to school. And I start hearing
0:58:18this honk behind me, like it must be someone who's upset at somebody else because I didn't
0:58:23do anything. Right. I was just driving and the honking persisted and it's like going and going.
0:58:29And then after like a good minute, Sylvia's like, who's this lady behind us honking at?
0:58:37It's like, and so I look at the rear view mirror and I see her gesturing like very
0:58:44aggressively toward me. She then sort of she she tries to pass me, stops her car because there was
0:58:54a red light and she starts yelling at me and she gets out of the car. So basically she was and I
0:59:02start I just I just laughed in her face. I just I didn't even do anything. Just started laughing.
0:59:07She believed that I cut her off at an intersection, which I didn't do, which I absolutely didn't do.
0:59:13So anyway, that was that was weird. And we had a laugh and then we just left.
0:59:18Well, I feel like I mean, I don't I'm not arguing for this possibility, but like,
0:59:24I'm just wondering, like, can you not imagine a future where a computer would be able to reason
0:59:31what to do in that scenario like a human can? Like why not? You don't think a computer would
0:59:36ever be able to do that? I think I think self-driving can absolutely work on a highway,
0:59:41on a freeway or on large roads. I don't think it's ever going to be able to figure out how you
0:59:49should live in Rome or in, you know, in any other city where going downtown or in certain
0:59:56neighborhoods is it requires a very special type of human skill, which is improvising.
1:00:03You think it's a uniquely human thing? I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just like,
1:00:07I think I really think it is. I mean, I agree with you that, like, it feels much more doable
1:00:13on predictable roads. Yes. Like where like America is more predictable, right? Like the
1:00:19road infrastructure in Europe is very different because it's older. And so like you have a look,
1:00:23y'all barely have any other Apple features because you're outside. That's true. You know,
1:00:27that's true. It's going to be U.S. only forever. Progressive web apps, self-driving kind of the
1:00:33same. Exactly the same thing. You got to drive it on Apple-approved roads and they're going to
1:00:38take 30% of that pavement. Of the roads, of the toll booths, all toll booths, 30% of toll booths.
1:00:45Yeah. I mean, Federico, I think there's definitely something to what you're saying.
1:00:49And that's exactly why this is such a hard problem. And there were people when Apple
1:00:54went into this saying like, no one else has figured this out. Tesla hasn't figured this out,
1:00:58surely. Like this is a very hard thing. And these companies have the best people in the world
1:01:04working at them. Right. What's the company? Waze? Wave? There's other companies out there doing
1:01:11this. I forget the name of it. Waymo. Waymo. Waze is the Google mapping. Yes. Yeah. I think there's
1:01:19something to that. I think there is something also that like they're going to be there for a long
1:01:24time, maybe not forever, because that's a risky bet. But for a long time, they're going to people
1:01:28who want to drive, who enjoy it. Right. And will struggle with self-driving. Those people are
1:01:35already struggling with EVs. Right. Because they think there's something special about the internal
1:01:39combustion engine and shifting your own gears. Like people are emotional about cars. And I
1:01:44totally get that. And I'm, to a degree, one of those people. You're a car guy. Yeah. Yeah. I
1:01:51think from the perspective of like Apple doing this, I've got a couple of big thoughts.
1:01:57The, the first of which is I think we're already seeing the, the benefit of this failed project.
1:02:04Right. One of the things you have to do in a car is a real-time operating system.
1:02:08And that sure seems like something that, that our one chip vision pro image pipeline thing
1:02:19is closely related to. Right. Where the timings of things, the absolute certainty
1:02:26that things are going to work a hundred percent of the time has to be present in a car. And the
1:02:32vision pro, I think benefits, if not directly than indirectly from some of that work. I would,
1:02:37if we were on a slightly different timeline and the car was real, I would imagine that that R1
1:02:45chip would have a counterpart in the car. Probably several counterparts. The C1. We're never going
1:02:52to get to experience it. It's so sad. The bigger thing for me is on the relief side. And I agree
1:02:59with you. Like I read this, I was like, Oh, thankfully finally we're past this. Hopefully
1:03:03it wasn't so much, even though there was a little bit of like, how do we even talk about this?
1:03:09Cause this is our career. Right. But this always seemed like a weird fit for Apple, the company,
1:03:19a company that predominantly makes consumer technology devices. And now a bunch of services
1:03:25that feed into those devices. If you look at what they make, it's all kind of in that diagram,
1:03:32right? Even from the vision pro to the Apple watch, the Mac, the iPhone and iPad,
1:03:36they're all different types of computers that do different things. And, and we,
1:03:40and our friends and, and our community, we get to debate those differences endlessly. And we love it.
1:03:46We love the car outside of that, even though the car is more and more rolling computer, right?
1:03:53Even my pickup truck, which is like internal combustion engine, right? It is, it is not an EV.
1:03:59Even that has some limited like computing stuff going on, right? It can center itself in the lane.
1:04:08It has radar cruise control. It has, um, these other like built-in features, like secure safety
1:04:15is going to stop me before I hit something or before I back into traffic. Computers and cars
1:04:22are on a collision course. And it felt weird to me that Apple was going to potentially be the first
1:04:31big tech company to get there because it just doesn't seem like something they would be good at.
1:04:35How do you sell it? How do you service it? How do you manage the relationship over a long time?
1:04:44We're talking about people with an iPhone for four or five years, a Mac five, six, seven years.
1:04:48People buy a car and ideally want to keep it for a long, long time. And that's a question all EV
1:04:56make, all EV makers have to face. And so far the answers aren't super encouraging. Uh, if you're
1:05:03going to try to find like an early model S, uh, from Tesla or even like a Chevy volt or bolt, like
1:05:11older GM electric cars, like there's a lot of questions there and how was Apple going to be
1:05:17different and be able to, to manage that relationship over a long time. I just didn't see
1:05:23them being good at it. And so I, as sad as this news is for the people involved and that sucks,
1:05:30like, I'm not trying to not say that, but I think from the 40,000 foot view, this was never going to
1:05:38be a good fit with what Apple's good at. And from that perspective, I'm kind of glad this is the end
1:05:44of the road for this project. Do we expect that they're going to try and like be more present in
1:05:52cars with carplay and stuff like that? Do you think maybe more effort will go into that now
1:05:57for as much as car companies might want or not? I don't know about more effort, but one other
1:06:05thing that's related to this is that car manufacturers love control. Look no further
1:06:11than Tesla, Rivian and GM's electric vehicles where they're not allowing carplay. They're not
1:06:18allowing Android auto because they want to control the whole stack and they think it's better. And
1:06:23there are some benefits to that. Like the phone experience, not knowing about the battery state
1:06:30of the car and that sort of thing. These things just have to be closer together. That is a huge
1:06:35uphill battle for Apple. And one so far that they've been only partially successful at because
1:06:41they're not on Tesla's, they're not on Rivian's, they're not on GM electric vehicles. But as hard
1:06:47as that is already, if they were in the marketplace with their own car, game over for carplay. I think
1:06:53I think it would really be hard for them to convince car makers to either get in bed with
1:07:03carplay in the first place or to stay there. And now that they're not going to be shipping a car,
1:07:08it seems like they don't have that additional hurdle. I don't think it means carplay is like
1:07:17totally set, ready to go and like it's going to succeed. But I think it is good for carplay
1:07:22in the sense that it keeps Apple's relationship with these other companies a little bit simpler.
1:07:30And the, you know, the report you were mentioning is that the, a lot of people are now going to move
1:07:37to AI and they're going to start working on generative AI stuff at Apple instead of the
1:07:41people that are in these teams under Kevin Lynch, under John Giannandrea. Yeah, Kevin sandwich.
1:07:47Yes. I guess that probably makes sense, right? I think there's a lot of overlap there in terms of
1:07:54computer vision. A lot of the real time OS stuff maybe not be, may not be extremely applicable to
1:08:02AI, but in terms of optimization and efficiency in computing, all that's good. And so I would imagine
1:08:11that there are things that they were working on there that yeah, the project they were working on
1:08:16may not move over, but they sort of information they have and the sort of experience and knowledge
1:08:23they've gathered, I think could be useful. Well, goodbye Apple car, I guess. Goodbye.
1:08:30We never knew. You know, they would have just called it car, right. As well.
1:08:34I, you know, I'm just going to put my flag in the ground. Like I really want to know everything
1:08:43about this and I cannot wait 30 years for the book. I would just love to know what Apple and
1:08:49Johnny Ive and these people thought the future was going to be. I think that does it. If you want to
1:08:56find links to the stuff we spoke about this week, they're in your podcast player. They're also on
1:09:00the web at relay.fm/connected/491. There's a feedback form on the website, and there's a link
1:09:07in the pod, in your podcast player to leave us feedback. There's an option to make it anonymous.
1:09:11So if you know more about Project Titan and you want to spill the beans, please let us know.
1:09:17You can also become a member and get connected pro, which is the longer ad free version of the
1:09:21show each and every week. Like Mike said at the top, we had a really, I think a really good
1:09:25conversation about Nintendo and emulators and lawsuits and what a time. If you want more of us,
1:09:32you can find us online. You can find Federico at maxstories.net, where he's the editor in chief.
1:09:38Some, some fun stuff coming to max stories. Yes. Stay tuned. I'll just, I'll leave it there. You
1:09:45can follow Mike. You can follow Mike. Well, you can follow Mike, but I'm talking about Federico
1:09:49right now. You can follow Federico. Follow Mike. Follow Mike. You can follow Federico as Vitici,
1:09:55V-I-T-I-C-C-I on threads. And he is vitici@maxstories.net on Macedon.
1:10:01Maybe ask him for some Italian tips, you know, learn, learn the alphabet with us.
1:10:06You can find Mike on a bunch of other shows here on relay.fm. Upgrade, Cortex,
1:10:11Panetic, Thoroughly Considered, Remastered, Analog. Don't try and list them all because
1:10:17you'll forget one and then you'll upset someone. You can also find Mike's work over at Cortex
1:10:22brand. You can follow Mike online. He is imike on threads and imike@mike.social on Macedon.
1:10:28You can find me online on threads as ismh86 and ismh@eworld.social on Macedon. You can
1:10:35find my writing on 512pixels.net and I co-host Mac Power Users here on relay.fm.
1:10:42We have new episodes each and every Sunday. I'd like to thank our sponsors this week,
1:10:47ZocDoc and Squarespace. And until next time, say goodbye.
1:10:51Arigatou gozaimasu!
1:10:59Bye y'all!
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