0:00:00(upbeat music)
0:00:02Hello and welcome to Connected episode 490.
0:00:12My name is Steven Hackett and I have the pleasure
0:00:14of being joined by Mike Hurley.
0:00:17Hey Mike.
0:00:17It is a pleasure.
0:00:19I'm so happy to be here.
0:00:21And I also have the pleasure of being joined
0:00:23by Federico Vittucci.
0:00:24Ciao Federico.
0:00:25Ciao, it is also a pleasure for me.
0:00:27We're all very pleasured.
0:00:29I think.
0:00:30People say this is the most pleasurable podcast.
0:00:33They say that.
0:00:34They say that.
0:00:35We got, a lot of people are saying that.
0:00:38They send us email to like,
0:00:39"Hey, your podcast is so pleasurable."
0:00:42Such so pleasurable for me, I love it.
0:00:45You actually would not believe the amount of emails we get
0:00:48where people say, "This is a pleasurable podcast."
0:00:51Yeah, yeah.
0:00:52So take that other tech shows.
0:00:55Take that other tech shows.
0:00:55Speaking of which, podcast in the shower.
0:00:59Podcast in the shower.
0:01:01So I ran a little poll on Mastodon asking,
0:01:04"Do you listen to podcasts in the shower?"
0:01:08Can you remind me why?
0:01:10Because I feel like I can only half remember
0:01:12why this is a thing that you wanted to do.
0:01:14I think I mentioned that I do it
0:01:16and someone in Discord or one of you
0:01:18thought I was bananas.
0:01:20We were talking about something with you in the bath.
0:01:25Yes.
0:01:26And you had a thing you were doing
0:01:29with your phone on a shelf, cases.
0:01:34We were talking about cases.
0:01:38Yeah.
0:01:39Maybe.
0:01:40Why do you use a case?
0:01:41Because you're worried you're gonna drop your phone?
0:01:43I don't want it to slide across the sink.
0:01:46There you go.
0:01:48The grip, the grip, you wanted grip.
0:01:49That's all right, you need that grip.
0:01:51And so 1,247 people voted on Mastodon.
0:01:5642% of people said yes,
0:02:02I do listen to podcasts in the shower.
0:02:0458% of people said no, I do not.
0:02:08So I think that there should be a third,
0:02:11it's too late now, which is I would like to.
0:02:13So I would like to listen to podcasts in the shower,
0:02:18but in my new shower, in my new house--
0:02:21Stop the count!
0:02:23Stop the count, stop the count.
0:02:24It's time to stop the count.
0:02:26But I can't, in my new shower,
0:02:28I can't hear the podcasts anymore is the problem.
0:02:31'Cause I have like a cubicle,
0:02:33and I don't have a space in the cubicle to put my phone,
0:02:35where my phone won't just be literally in a pool of water.
0:02:38Although there were some replies to this post
0:02:42where I was like, oh, that's a smart idea.
0:02:43Like people building shelves, shelves?
0:02:47Yeah.
0:02:48Shelving?
0:02:48But I don't think that would fly at home,
0:02:50which probably for good reason.
0:02:51We had a couple of things.
0:02:53We had someone write in, they're just putting their phone
0:02:56on top of like the edge of the shower.
0:02:58That's a terrible idea.
0:02:59Your phone's gonna explode.
0:03:00Look, I'm a professional phone breaker.
0:03:03This phone is going to break.
0:03:05Other people had like sticky things on the wall,
0:03:08they mount their phone in.
0:03:09Look, it's way simpler than that.
0:03:10All you need is a waterproof Bluetooth speaker.
0:03:15I have one in the show notes from JBL.
0:03:17I happen to own the old version of this.
0:03:19I got it for free in something at some point years ago.
0:03:23I've run it forever.
0:03:25It's great.
0:03:26So I can Bluetooth it.
0:03:27My phone can stay safe and sound on the edge of the sink
0:03:29thanks to the little leather nomad thing,
0:03:31keeping it safe and sound.
0:03:33And I can listen in the shower.
0:03:35It's great.
0:03:36Don't put your phone in the shower with you.
0:03:37That's weird.
0:03:38That's too far.
0:03:39Why?
0:03:40Why is that weird?
0:03:41'Cause you're in the shower.
0:03:42You don't want your phone in there.
0:03:43What has that got to do with anything?
0:03:45It's supposed to be clean.
0:03:46What if your mom FaceTimes you
0:03:47and you accidentally answer, you know?
0:03:49Why would you accidentally answer?
0:03:51Why would you do that? It's slippery.
0:03:51Your hands are wet, you know?
0:03:54You're gesturing wildly listening to ATP
0:03:56and then suddenly you're talking to your mom.
0:03:58I don't think this would happen to me.
0:04:00There's only one way to find out.
0:04:03You call me and see what happens.
0:04:05I have to have an experiment.
0:04:07So I'm putting this in the show notes, the JBL thing.
0:04:13And instead of waterproof, I wrote shower proof.
0:04:16I mean. That's not right.
0:04:18It kind of good though.
0:04:19It is. It kind of is.
0:04:21But also that's not what people are looking for.
0:04:23I think shower proof.
0:04:25Probably not.
0:04:26So anyways, look, I get it.
0:04:30Sometimes your acoustics may not be good.
0:04:32My shower is not very big.
0:04:34So I can feel like it works.
0:04:36Maybe mine has a glass door,
0:04:38but maybe if you're showering like in a, you know,
0:04:41like a shower tub or using the shower curtain,
0:04:43maybe your acoustics would be better with that.
0:04:45I will say, due to experimentation,
0:04:49the audio is much better in my shower
0:04:52if I put my towel over the door.
0:04:54So there's like some soft material,
0:04:56like hanging over the door into the shower.
0:05:00Does that make sense?
0:05:02I don't think so.
0:05:03Okay, so I have my shower's tiled in
0:05:06and there's a glass door that swings open.
0:05:09And usually the towel's hanging on the wall
0:05:11outside of the shower, right?
0:05:12So I get out of the shower, like open the door a little bit,
0:05:14stick my arm out and grab the towel.
0:05:17But if I take the towel and put it over the door,
0:05:20so it's like hanging half in the shower,
0:05:23half out of the shower,
0:05:25that fabric hanging in the shower
0:05:27greatly approves shower acoustics.
0:05:29Okay, interesting.
0:05:32You don't have to buy a sound panel for your shower.
0:05:35Just put a towel.
0:05:36But it wouldn't hurt.
0:05:38Wouldn't it?
0:05:38If you want optimal results, that's what you need to do.
0:05:44That's the end of the shower cast.
0:05:45Thank you for coming.
0:05:46I'm so happy.
0:05:47I have a question for the both of you.
0:05:50What are you, if anything, using for RSS on Vision Pro?
0:05:55Yeah, there's no great native experience at the moment.
0:06:00I'm just using Lire, that's L-I-R-E, in compatibility mode.
0:06:05That's my main RSS client on other platforms
0:06:08and the iPad app is available in compatibility mode.
0:06:11So that's what I use with iNoReader Sync.
0:06:14I actually think even compatibility mode is fine.
0:06:17Like that's totally fine.
0:06:18Yeah, it's fine.
0:06:19It's fine.
0:06:20That's what I use.
0:06:22Typically in portrait mode,
0:06:23so it's nice on one side of my workspace, yeah.
0:06:26I am missing currently, big time, Reader and Timery.
0:06:31They are both heartbreakers for me
0:06:33that they're not even in compatibility mode.
0:06:36And it's making me very sad
0:06:37'cause these are two apps that I would like to use
0:06:41and I can't and it's bugging me
0:06:44'cause I think especially Timery because I'm doing stuff
0:06:47and I'm like, I don't even think about having a timer set.
0:06:50And then I'm like, oh man, I didn't set a timer.
0:06:53Well, so I want these apps to exist.
0:06:55They don't, I don't know what's happening
0:06:57and either of them, but I want them to be there.
0:06:59Yeah.
0:07:01And we'll give a shout out to the one true gamer.
0:07:04That is John Voorhees.
0:07:05From OTJ to OTG.
0:07:07OTG.
0:07:09O-G-O-G-J.
0:07:10I feel like this was a thing where,
0:07:13because Federico was delayed for a week with his Vision Pro,
0:07:17John had to pick up the mantle and run with it
0:07:20to make the comprehensive guide to gaming
0:07:22on the Apple Vision Pro.
0:07:23It's a really great article.
0:07:24There's loads of interesting tidbits in there.
0:07:26There's some things that I've downloaded
0:07:28that I wanna try out,
0:07:28like the PlayStation mirroring thing,
0:07:31which is the thing I'd heard about years ago.
0:07:34Like this app's been around forever, right?
0:07:36And, or at least a version of it has been MirrorPlay,
0:07:39but I've never really used it,
0:07:40but I feel like this could be a really good reason to use it.
0:07:43Mm-hmm.
0:07:45It also, and I think John wrote about this,
0:07:47I sort of blacked out towards the end of the story
0:07:49'cause there were a lot of gaming screenshots.
0:07:51It gets, well, it also, the further the article goes,
0:07:56the more unconventional (laughs)
0:07:59I think I would say the methods become.
0:08:02Yeah, at some point he's talking about his Wi-Fi network,
0:08:04you know, gaming Wi-Fi, it's all the rage.
0:08:07Gaming Wi-Fi, everyone's doing it.
0:08:08But it would be cool if the developer strap would,
0:08:11like, I want that thing to do everything, right?
0:08:14Like we want ethernet from it,
0:08:16we want video in and video out.
0:08:19Like, just put some ports on things.
0:08:20It doesn't ever hurt anybody.
0:08:22Yeah, I mean, if only,
0:08:24if that theory, the developer strap,
0:08:26can do more than what it's currently doing,
0:08:29but it's locked in software,
0:08:30I really hope that Apple makes that
0:08:32like a proper Thunderbolt port.
0:08:35Because honestly, like with ethernet,
0:08:37it will fix up basically most of the problems
0:08:41when it comes to game streaming to the Vision Pro, right?
0:08:44I mean, if you can have ethernet speeds on that thing,
0:08:47whether you wanna stream PS5 or Xbox or PC,
0:08:50like, that's gonna be not an issue.
0:08:52The Vision Pro doesn't have Wi-Fi 6E, unfortunately,
0:08:55so it's locked to Wi-Fi 6.
0:08:57And I'm finding that I consistently get worse performance
0:09:02with Wi-Fi on the Vision Pro
0:09:04than, say, my iPad Pro, for example.
0:09:06So I want to believe that maybe in Vision OS 2.0 or something
0:09:10they will unlock the true potential
0:09:12of the developer strap.
0:09:13Let me plug an ethernet adapter in that thing.
0:09:18Come on, please.
0:09:19But yeah, it's a great story.
0:09:21John spent a lot of money and did a lot of research
0:09:24to find all the possible options right now.
0:09:27Of course, as soon as we published that,
0:09:29we noticed that there's a test flight beta
0:09:34for a native version of Moonlight.
0:09:38So if you are a PC gamer and you wanna stream games
0:09:42from your PC to your Vision Pro,
0:09:44there's a Vision OS test flight for Moonlight,
0:09:47which is the client for PC streaming.
0:09:50Gonna leave some links in the show notes.
0:09:52And the test flight is currently open,
0:09:54so you can just click a link and start testing it.
0:09:56We got a couple of small topics to handle here
0:10:00at the beginning of the show.
0:10:02The first one is more battery, who dis?
0:10:05So this is a report from Chance Miller.
0:10:08I'm just gonna read this
0:10:10because I don't understand how this happened.
0:10:14This is Chance.
0:10:15Apple initially said that the iPhone 15's battery
0:10:18would retain up to 80% of its original capacity
0:10:21at 500 complete charge cycles.
0:10:24Now the company tells 9to5Mac that the iPhone 15
0:10:27can retain 80% of its original capacity
0:10:30at 1,000 complete charge cycles.
0:10:33That's awesome.
0:10:35That's great news for longevity of these devices.
0:10:37But why is Apple discovered this now?
0:10:41I have so many questions.
0:10:43- It is peculiar.
0:10:45- So I guess what we are seeing here
0:10:47is that sometimes a recount does work.
0:10:51- Is that? - Yeah, I guess.
0:10:53- I think so. - Yeah.
0:10:54- I think that's what it's saying.
0:10:55- I think so.
0:10:56- Yeah.
0:10:57- This comes in conjunction with some changes
0:10:59coming in iOS 17.4.
0:11:01It's like, boy, does 17.4 win the award
0:11:05for the biggest point update ever to iOS?
0:11:07Like, I think it might.
0:11:08It's just, there's so much stuff going on.
0:11:10But a change coming to the battery
0:11:13and battery health screen.
0:11:15Which remember, this was added several years ago.
0:11:17There was the dust up about Apple throttling
0:11:21the performance of phones.
0:11:22There was a class action lawsuit.
0:11:24All these things happened.
0:11:26Now in 17.4, if you go into the battery screen and settings,
0:11:31you will see two new menus.
0:11:34One called battery health
0:11:36and one called charging optimization.
0:11:38And in that change, you can now see,
0:11:41without having to drill down, your battery health status.
0:11:45So if it says normal, then you're all set.
0:11:49And if you want more detail, then you can tap in further
0:11:52and you can still see the percentage, right?
0:11:54So Mary actually just went through this
0:11:56with her iPhone 13 mini,
0:11:58where her battery life was really bad.
0:12:00I went into the battery health thing
0:12:03and it turns out she was at like 78% original capacity.
0:12:08And that was low enough where the Apple store
0:12:10replaced the battery for free for her,
0:12:13under AppleCare, which was really cool.
0:12:15This phone now has also has gotten a new screen
0:12:17and a new battery.
0:12:18It's like a whole new iPhone 13 mini.
0:12:21But this makes it a little bit easier,
0:12:22a little bit less digging to kind of see what's going on.
0:12:24And I think that's good because before,
0:12:27you just got a percentage without much context, right?
0:12:30It's like, well, is 80% good?
0:12:32Is 80% bad?
0:12:33I don't know.
0:12:34And so they're trying to, I think, better educate people
0:12:37about how their batteries are actually doing.
0:12:41- So nine to five Mac on fire right now.
0:12:44- Yes.
0:12:44- It's like left and right piece of information.
0:12:47This one, they got through Waze,
0:12:51some information about some sizing of the next iPads.
0:12:56And I wanna specifically just talk about the iPad Pro
0:12:59'cause it's the most interesting
0:13:01because we have comparisons.
0:13:03Essentially the piece of information to know
0:13:06is that the iPad Pros are all gonna be getting
0:13:08a little bit bigger by a few millimeters,
0:13:10but also thinner.
0:13:12So the 11 inch will be going from 5.9 to 5.1 millimeters.
0:13:19And the 12.9 inch will be going from 6.4 to five millimeters.
0:13:24What is really weird to me here is that the 12.9
0:13:31will be 0.1 millimeters thinner than the 11.
0:13:35- Yeah, that I think is gonna feel amazing in the hand.
0:13:40- And also the 12.9 Pro is one millimeter thinner
0:13:45than the new 12.9 Air.
0:13:48- Yeah.
0:13:49- That's also interesting.
0:13:50- But the Air sticker and the Pro.
0:13:52- Yeah, it's ironic, right?
0:13:55- Yeah, it's the Air is thinner
0:13:58than the current Pro is as well.
0:14:02And I expect that's because it's maybe the mini LED,
0:14:06maybe that is more complicated than just a regular LCD screen
0:14:11or LED screen, whatever they use.
0:14:13LED screens, I have no idea anymore.
0:14:15I'm so lost because I assume that we use LED,
0:14:19mini LED and OLED, right?
0:14:21So I think that the LED screens will be thinner
0:14:24than the mini LED screens, but what 9to5 is saying
0:14:28that everything is gonna be thinner
0:14:30because OLED is thinner in general.
0:14:34So that's how they can get thinner.
0:14:35- Yeah.
0:14:36- But the fun thing then is that the iPad Pro,
0:14:40I guess we'll take the crown again
0:14:42because I think the iPad Pro currently,
0:14:45or at least maybe the LED version of the iPad Pro
0:14:49was the thinnest Apple product ever made.
0:14:51And this will now top that.
0:14:54- Yeah, I mean, five millimeters makes it thinner
0:14:57than any iPod touch and even that weird last iPod Nano
0:15:02that kind of looked like iOS.
0:15:03Like not the square clippy one, but the very last one.
0:15:07And that thing, I've got one, like I pulled it out today.
0:15:09It's really thin.
0:15:11I think it's gonna be a dramatic change to the iPad,
0:15:14especially when you're not using it in the case.
0:15:18- The thing that just always boggles my mind,
0:15:20like I know this fact, but I had to Google it again
0:15:23because I still feel like I can never believe it,
0:15:25that the current iPad Pro is thinner
0:15:28than the original iPod Nano.
0:15:30Doesn't make any sense.
0:15:33- No, that's incredible.
0:15:35- Right?
0:15:35The iPod Nano was 6.9 millimeters thick.
0:15:38Wild, it's wild.
0:15:40- Yeah, but going to five millimeters,
0:15:43like that's a major milestone, I think.
0:15:47Like it seems incredible that it can be that thin.
0:15:52You know, go OLED, I guess.
0:15:54So for these iPads, I guess, so for these iPads,
0:15:57let's sort of run down what we know.
0:15:58We know that there's gonna be a bigger iPad Air.
0:16:02They are gonna stick to their usual sizes,
0:16:0511 inch and 12.9 inch for the iPad Pro.
0:16:10They're gonna be OLED,
0:16:11and they're probably remaking the Magic Keyboard
0:16:14or at the very least making a higher end,
0:16:18more pro keyboard trackpad accessory.
0:16:21So that's all we know for hardware.
0:16:24I am really curious to see
0:16:28how they're gonna pitch these devices beyond these changes.
0:16:32Like, should we expect
0:16:36any change from the software of these iPads?
0:16:41And also, I had a thought today.
0:16:44Why, so I guess, no, let me rephrase in a different way.
0:16:49I think Sidecar on the iPad
0:16:53should go away, hold on,
0:16:57and should just be called Mac Virtual Display.
0:16:59Because aren't they like the same thing?
0:17:02Well, Sidecar extends the display,
0:17:04and I guess Mac Virtual Desktop replaces it,
0:17:07but they're definitely very closely related.
0:17:10It just seems strange
0:17:11that we have two similar Mac display technologies,
0:17:15and one is called One Way,
0:17:16and another is called Mac Virtual Display.
0:17:18But I think it is that similarity,
0:17:20the fact that they are similar, not the same,
0:17:22is it's difficult, 'cause as Stephen said, right?
0:17:25Yeah, I get it.
0:17:26You can't mirror, I don't think, right?
0:17:29Or maybe you can, but you can also, with Sidecar,
0:17:33have it as a second display, right?
0:17:34Which you cannot do with Vision.
0:17:36True, true.
0:17:37But regardless, anyway, some hardware changes,
0:17:41and we know nothing about,
0:17:43and if there's gonna be any software-related improvements
0:17:47on these iPads, which I don't think there will be.
0:17:50No, at least not when they announce them,
0:17:53if we're still expecting a March timeline, right?
0:17:57You're three months away from any changes.
0:18:01I would be, I mean, we're gonna talk about iOS 18
0:18:05in a little bit.
0:18:06I would be surprised if there was anything
0:18:09like super specific for iPad and iOS 18,
0:18:11'cause it looks like Apple was one very, very clear focus,
0:18:15but we'll find out.
0:18:17Yeah.
0:18:18I kinda wish that he had the measurements
0:18:22for a new iPad Mini.
0:18:23Can I just put that out there?
0:18:24Those numbers aren't floating around.
0:18:26Yeah, 'cause, Stephen, you know what?
0:18:27It's gonna be exactly the same,
0:18:28'cause if we get anything, it is a spec bump.
0:18:31Yeah, I think I've said this,
0:18:33but my iPad Mini got sort of down-cycled
0:18:36to be a kid's iPad, 'cause they were using,
0:18:38one of the kids was using an iPad, I don't know,
0:18:42seventh gen, something really old,
0:18:44and I replaced it with an iPad Mini,
0:18:45and I got a refurbished 11-inch iPad Pro,
0:18:48but I really miss the iPad Mini.
0:18:51I kinda think I messed up, but.
0:18:53I adore, adore my iPad Mini.
0:18:57It's going to be very hard to resist
0:19:00an OLED 11-inch iPad Pro.
0:19:02Oh yeah, no, I'm gonna get that.
0:19:03I think I am gonna get an 11-inch iPad Pro OLED for sure.
0:19:08Like, that's gonna be my new iPad.
0:19:11'Cause I use, so remember when I had COVID?
0:19:13You remember when I had COVID?
0:19:15I don't know if you guys could feel that.
0:19:15Oh, you do, you do?
0:19:17Remember I had COVID that one really inconvenient time?
0:19:19Yeah.
0:19:20To try and make myself feel better,
0:19:23I ordered an iPad from Best Buy.
0:19:26Oh yeah, 'cause you wanted to use Stage Manager,
0:19:28and that was when it was still limited to,
0:19:32whatever it was limited to.
0:19:33The M processors, and I had an iPad
0:19:36with an A processor in it.
0:19:38And so I was like, oh, I'll just get that.
0:19:41So we use that iPad for watching TV on,
0:19:46if we're eating something, if we're eating dinner,
0:19:47maybe we'll catch up on a show, and we watch that, right?
0:19:50So that works for us.
0:19:51But that is a 64-gigabyte iPad.
0:19:54Boys, that is-
0:19:57Not enough.
0:19:58An impossible thing to manage.
0:20:00Because I have like 28 gigabytes of iMessage.
0:20:05And I can't do anything about it.
0:20:07That's our fault, mostly.
0:20:09Oh, but it's just like, I wanna keep it, right?
0:20:11'Cause all of my other devices can store that.
0:20:13But this cannot.
0:20:14I had to do some real like gymnastics a couple of days ago,
0:20:19just to update the iPad.
0:20:21It was a nightmare, just trying to be able
0:20:24to update the thing.
0:20:25So yeah, but so I would like to,
0:20:27I think I would like to replace that iPad at some point.
0:20:30And I don't know, maybe it just becomes my iPad
0:20:33and I give up on the mini life, but we'll see.
0:20:36Oh, don't wanna do that.
0:20:37Could I introduce you to a concept
0:20:40called the multi-pad lifestyle?
0:20:42It's on my face now.
0:20:43That is true.
0:20:45It's on my face.
0:20:46Multi-pad on my face.
0:20:48Yep.
0:20:49This episode of Connected is brought to you by NetSuite.
0:20:56If you have a business, you can probably relate to this.
0:20:59Things get to a certain size
0:21:00and then cracks start to emerge.
0:21:02Things you used to do in a day are suddenly taking a week.
0:21:07You have too many manual processes
0:21:08and you don't have one source of truth.
0:21:11It's never a good feeling
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0:23:25- So Jason published the Six Colors report card for 2023
0:23:33over on sixcolors.com, the website,
0:23:35and we spoke about it on upgrade
0:23:39and me and Jason both gave our scores.
0:23:41But one of the great things about this now
0:23:43is people start publishing their own report cards,
0:23:46all of the information that they gave.
0:23:48And so you two both published yours as well.
0:23:51And so I wanted to give you both the opportunity
0:23:54to pick out any specific highlights.
0:23:56We probably won't go through it all.
0:23:57I don't think we have enough time in this week's episode
0:23:59to go through everything.
0:24:01But I don't know if either of you wanted to pick out
0:24:03any specific scores that you gave and some reasoning
0:24:06for those.
0:24:07- Yeah, my one out of five to the iPad, maybe.
0:24:10- Okay, yeah, I'd like to know about that.
0:24:12I also want to know about your wearables
0:24:14because our scores are very similar.
0:24:17- What did I say about that?
0:24:18- Wearables you gave two out of five
0:24:20and I gave four out of five.
0:24:21So I also want to hear about that.
0:24:24- Yeah, so the wearables, I'm kind of bored
0:24:27with the AirPods Pro.
0:24:28They are serviceable.
0:24:30They do what they're meant to do,
0:24:32but it just feels like they've been doing
0:24:34the same thing forever now.
0:24:35And I know that in tech years, forever,
0:24:39can also be three years, four years,
0:24:42but it feels that way.
0:24:43They feel, I don't know, they feel kind of boring to me.
0:24:46I cannot stop using them because they are the best earbuds
0:24:50if you are an Apple person.
0:24:54But I just wish that Apple did something new.
0:24:56More sensors, more, I don't know, more battery life,
0:25:00more, you know, a different shape.
0:25:02I look, for example, at,
0:25:04have you guys seen those new Bose Ultra open earbuds
0:25:09that actually don't go into your ears?
0:25:12- Yeah.
0:25:13- Yeah, I don't know.
0:25:14I don't think Apple is ever gonna do that sort of stuff,
0:25:17but I just wish they had a little more creativity
0:25:20in terms of the whole wearable category.
0:25:22And of course, the AirPods Max.
0:25:24They should be a little ashamed
0:25:27that they haven't upgraded those headphones
0:25:31in any capacity, both in terms of hardware and software
0:25:35for the new audio features that we have on the AirPods Pro
0:25:39in how many years?
0:25:41Four, five?
0:25:42So yeah, I think it's a two out of five
0:25:46because I wanna see some changes,
0:25:48and the AirPods Max just feel like a forgotten product
0:25:52at this point.
0:25:52- Which is a shame 'cause-- - Yeah.
0:25:54- They're the, my favorite over is
0:25:56because they get all of the features
0:25:58that come with being as part of the ecosystem.
0:26:00- And they are so comfortable.
0:26:02Like they are the best over here Bluetooth headphones
0:26:05that I have.
0:26:06I really, really like them,
0:26:07but they make me feel bad when I use them.
0:26:09You know, when I need to charge them
0:26:11with a lightning cable, just feels terrible.
0:26:14- Yeah, and I want, I mean, because I use it,
0:26:16I want adaptive mode.
0:26:18I want conversations, like I use those features,
0:26:21and so I want them on all of my headphones.
0:26:25- So the iPad, I gave it two out of five.
0:26:29You gave it one out of five.
0:26:32I'm sure for similar reasons, right?
0:26:34No hardware updates in 2023,
0:26:37but also kind of no meaningful iPadOS updates.
0:26:41I mean, they improved Stage Manager, but--
0:26:43- Yeah, so that's why I give it a one.
0:26:44I was really tempted to give it a zero,
0:26:46but because they, at the very least,
0:26:51they sort of improved some basic problems of Stage Manager,
0:26:56I gave it a one.
0:26:59- Well, there is, for JSON, there is no zero.
0:27:02- Oh, okay.
0:27:04- 'Cause that was my, I gave it a one,
0:27:06instead of, I said in my report notes,
0:27:09if there was a zero, I would've given it a zero.
0:27:11- Yeah, yeah.
0:27:13So it's not just that there weren't,
0:27:17for the first time in over a decade,
0:27:19no new iPads last year.
0:27:22It's the fact that it really seems, okay,
0:27:26seems from the outside that if you set aside the fact
0:27:31the final cut and logic finally came to the iPad,
0:27:34but those are like separate apps,
0:27:35but as a platform, right, as iPadOS, as its own entity,
0:27:40as a whole operating system,
0:27:42it just feels, my perspective, that Apple's,
0:27:47I don't know, it almost seems like they don't have,
0:27:50there's no passion behind it anymore,
0:27:52and it seems to me like that passion
0:27:54is now going to VisionOS.
0:27:57It just, which is why I keep saying,
0:28:01like, I really wanna see how they pitch,
0:28:03how they present these new iPad Pros,
0:28:06because if it just, I get this feeling that,
0:28:10besides Stage Manager, which, again,
0:28:12is an optional setting that you need to choose,
0:28:15and it's not even that great, right?
0:28:17I've been using my 11-inch iPad Pro
0:28:20with Split View again and Slide Over, and it's glorious.
0:28:23But besides Stage Manager,
0:28:27we haven't really gotten any meaningful,
0:28:31like, desktop-class features on iPadOS,
0:28:35unless you wanna talk about, like,
0:28:37slightly customizable toolbars and sidebars
0:28:41as desktop-class features,
0:28:43which is what Apple would like you to think,
0:28:45which, fine, sure,
0:28:46it's nice to have a customizable toolbar,
0:28:48but it seems to me like Apple's really putting the passion,
0:28:53so to speak, behind VisionOS and behind macOS these days.
0:29:01And, of course, iOS, but iOS is going forever, right?
0:29:05iOS needs to go forever.
0:29:07But besides iOS,
0:29:09which is the central operating system in many ways,
0:29:13it feels like there's VisionOS, macOS,
0:29:17really, really...
0:29:19I mean, look at Mac hardware, look at Mac software, right?
0:29:22Tons of things happening over there,
0:29:25and iPadOS is sort of just left there to linger
0:29:29and to wait for small updates every once in a while.
0:29:33And I say this as a person who profoundly loves
0:29:36the iPad form factor and the idea of a tablet OS,
0:29:42but looking at reality,
0:29:45is there anything really substantial happening
0:29:51on that front these days?
0:29:53And I think the answer is no and has been no for a while.
0:29:56Yeah, it's hard to argue with.
0:29:59My score that I wish I could do over is the Apple Watch.
0:30:03I don't know what I was thinking.
0:30:04I gave it four out of five, and I think that's too high.
0:30:08I didn't even write it in my thing.
0:30:10I was going through this in preparation of the show.
0:30:12I was like, "I didn't even write anything about this."
0:30:14The Apple Watch, I guess some of this
0:30:16was the very end of the year,
0:30:17maybe even after I turned to my answers.
0:30:19Maybe that's what it was.
0:30:21But the whole deal with the blood oxygen sensor
0:30:23in the United States is ridiculous.
0:30:26And I think if we look at 2023 as a whole,
0:30:31that is a pretty big mark against the Apple Watch.
0:30:34And now, and of course, now it's the 2024,
0:30:37so this will be on next year's, I guess.
0:30:39You can't, like if you buy a new Apple Watch
0:30:41that supports blood oxygen stuff,
0:30:43it's turned off in the United States
0:30:45because Apple can't or won't settle with this other company.
0:30:50And the longer it goes, the more ridiculous it is.
0:30:54Like, I don't know what that company wants from Apple,
0:30:57but they need to be able to come to a common ground here
0:31:00because it's a good feature that people are being,
0:31:05they're not able to use it,
0:31:07they're not able to take advantage of it
0:31:08because this litigation that's going on
0:31:11that most people don't even know anything about.
0:31:13- Yep, it's one of those things that I was very aware of
0:31:16and then completely forgot about
0:31:18because now we're not talking about it anymore
0:31:20and there's no more information about it
0:31:21because it reached a point and stopped.
0:31:23And like, there will be more in the future,
0:31:25but it is kind of ridiculous to think about that.
0:31:29Like, I hope it gets resolved 'cause it's petty,
0:31:36it feels just like such a small thing.
0:31:41And I understand why they don't wanna do it,
0:31:44but if they infringe the patents of this company,
0:31:48well, then that's just the way it goes, right?
0:31:51Like if that's how it's found, that's just the way it goes.
0:31:54- Yep, I think those are my sort of high points.
0:32:00You know, I think overall, Apple's doing okay.
0:32:05I think the pain points, most of them aren't new, right?
0:32:10Like Federico's thing about iPadOS,
0:32:12you could copy that out and paste it
0:32:14in an episode of "Connected" from two years ago
0:32:16or three years ago.
0:32:18That's basically the same argument, right?
0:32:20I think the same thing could be said for hardware,
0:32:23that the hardware, like each year is better and better
0:32:26and Apple Silicon's been great for the Mac for now.
0:32:29Coming up on a little over three years,
0:32:32iPhone hardware, incredible.
0:32:34I feel like these things that are changing
0:32:38in sort of the Apple landscape, they change very slowly.
0:32:42And I feel at least like the overall shape
0:32:46of the report card and the way I think about it,
0:32:49like not that much has changed
0:32:51over the years we've been doing it.
0:32:53Not drastically, at least.
0:32:55- Yeah.
0:32:55- No, there've been a couple of areas like the Mac.
0:33:00So in 2016, the Mac was a 2.6.
0:33:05And now it's a 4.2.
0:33:06- Yeah, I forgot it went back that far even.
0:33:09Yeah, that's fair.
0:33:11- Right, so there are a few things like that
0:33:13that have really swung.
0:33:14The iPad has taken a similar dip.
0:33:16It's now at 2.4.
0:33:17- The iPad is now lower than where the Mac was
0:33:22during the whole butterfly keyboard era.
0:33:25- Like Apple Watch goes up and down,
0:33:26but not really huge swings and similar for Apple TV.
0:33:30But like the Mac and the iPad is the ones
0:33:32that have had the biggest like deltas
0:33:35I think during this time period.
0:33:37- Yeah, I mean, gosh, what a terrible time
0:33:41the Mac was having in 2016, '17 and '18, nightmare.
0:33:46- I mean, it's what it's like to be an iPad user today.
0:33:50- I guess so.
0:33:51- They flipped.
0:33:52- At least your keyboards work, you know?
0:33:55- Apple doesn't believe in the future of the iPad.
0:33:58They just want the Mac to be an iPad.
0:34:01- Well, I guess it's like, all right,
0:34:02so let's just play this out for a second, right?
0:34:05- Yeah.
0:34:06- Now, I guess the story will be that like
0:34:09how the iPad was gonna replace the Mac
0:34:12that Vision will replace iPad, right?
0:34:14I guess that's probably where that story could go.
0:34:19- For sure.
0:34:20- I think so.
0:34:21- Interesting, be fun for you guys.
0:34:24- Yeah, well, I don't think it's not even that wrong
0:34:29as an assessment.
0:34:32I think just looking at the facts,
0:34:34the fact that Vision OS is based on iPad OS
0:34:39and lets you open as many windows as you want,
0:34:42I know that by design,
0:34:43the fact that you can turn your own room into a workspace,
0:34:48but it just feels like a version of iPad OS
0:34:55where people actually improved the things
0:35:00that were not working on iPad OS.
0:35:02Yeah, so.
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0:36:54- So Steven, I feel like we have Mac Power Users'
0:36:59version of you for the rest of the show today.
0:37:02Like these show notes,
0:37:04these feel like what you would do for MPU.
0:37:06So I'm very excited about this.
0:37:08There's a lot of hack it research going into this topic.
0:37:11So on behalf of the Connected podcast,
0:37:14the most pleasurable podcast, I would like to thank you
0:37:17for doing this pleasurable research.
0:37:20- It's also in Notion, which is like MPU.
0:37:24- Yep.
0:37:25- Okay, so I wanted to spend some time talking
0:37:30about Apple's AI efforts.
0:37:32And I've kind of broken this into three sections roughly,
0:37:36background, rumors, and what they've actually shipped.
0:37:41And you know, at this point,
0:37:41it's like a really interesting point in time.
0:37:44Google, OpenAI, others have kind of put their cards
0:37:47on the table about what they're doing.
0:37:49And Apple hasn't in terms of product.
0:37:53We don't know what AI infused product is gonna be like
0:37:57from Apple, but they are doing things.
0:38:01And when I started digging into this,
0:38:04'cause like you see reports every once in a while,
0:38:05like Apple released this, they published this paper,
0:38:07whatever, when you start putting it together,
0:38:10there's actually a lot of stuff here.
0:38:12And so while Apple hasn't shipped anything
0:38:14to the regular end user, that doesn't mean
0:38:17that there's not stuff going on behind the scenes.
0:38:20And if anything, all this makes me excited
0:38:22to see what we could end up with in products,
0:38:25because clearly they're spending a lot of time and money
0:38:28in this area, which is good,
0:38:30because all the competitors are, they should.
0:38:32- To say follow up, obviously, when we're talking about AI,
0:38:36what we're talking about is products like the products
0:38:39that are existing now from the companies
0:38:41you mentioned earlier.
0:38:42Obviously, we know Apple has machine learning
0:38:45in a lot of their things.
0:38:46We know they put a transformer model in the keyboard,
0:38:49but none of these are what we're really thinking about
0:38:52when we talk about quote unquote AI products, right?
0:38:55These are chatbots, these are things
0:38:57that do things on the web, like you can have conversations
0:39:00with all this image generation, all this kind of stuff
0:39:03that is occurring new right now.
0:39:07That's what we're talking about.
0:39:09- Exactly, I think we should start with personnel.
0:39:13So there was some reporting coming up on a year ago
0:39:18about some job descriptions that we're talking about,
0:39:22hiring people in these areas.
0:39:25And I had kind of forgotten that it's been this long,
0:39:30but back in, what is it, back in 2018,
0:39:34Apple hired John Gendrea from Google,
0:39:39and he is now Apple's Senior Vice President,
0:39:45comma, Machine Learning and AI Strategy.
0:39:49He is on the leadership page on apple.com.
0:39:52And when he came over, obviously a big deal,
0:39:57he had done a lot of this sort of groundwork at Google.
0:40:02And I think it's clear that he has been building a team,
0:40:05not only through these job postings,
0:40:08but exactly what you said, Mike.
0:40:09They've already shipped some products,
0:40:11I'm glad you brought that up.
0:40:12And I would imagine there's even stuff
0:40:15that we don't know about, but that is machine learning
0:40:19or AI and services or in Siri or something
0:40:22that they haven't really publicized, so.
0:40:24- Man, talk about a guy who was hired
0:40:27and then his life changed, right?
0:40:30Like, I'm sure he was hired for whatever he was hired for
0:40:33and he was working on that stuff.
0:40:35And then like two years ago, it was like,
0:40:36oh, you need a lot more resources now, right?
0:40:41Like that, I assume his team has exploded
0:40:46over the last 12 to 18 months.
0:40:49- I'm sure it has.
0:40:50And that brings us to some of the rumors.
0:40:53So we mentioned iOS 18 earlier,
0:40:57and it really seems like this is going to be a release
0:41:02that is really focused on generative AI features.
0:41:07Mark Gurman has talked a lot about this.
0:41:09He has called it one of the biggest updates ever to iOS,
0:41:12which is just wild.
0:41:14There's also reports and rumors that the iPhone 16 line
0:41:19could get a big bump in neural engine performance.
0:41:23There's also a rumor floating out there
0:41:25that the iPhone 16 and 16 Pro will both get a new chip,
0:41:29that they won't do the thing
0:41:30they've done the last couple of years.
0:41:32And if that means new neural engine stuff to all the phones
0:41:36in conjunction with iOS 18,
0:41:38like Apple hardware, software services coming together,
0:41:42right, that's it, that's what they do.
0:41:44And I think some of these specific rumors
0:41:48are actually really interesting in what it could mean.
0:41:52One of the biggest ones has to do with Siri,
0:41:56where you could use Siri,
0:41:59hypothetically if these reports are correct,
0:42:02to kind of do one-off tasks
0:42:03that maybe you would build a shortcut for previously,
0:42:07but shortcuts isn't very good, in my opinion,
0:42:09at the one-offs, right?
0:42:11You kind of build a shortcut
0:42:12because you're going to do it over and over.
0:42:13Same thing with automation on the Mac, right?
0:42:15I'm not going to make a hazel rule to move MP3s one time.
0:42:19I'm going to build a hazel rule to move MP3s every single day
0:42:22'cause I'm making files every day for work, right?
0:42:25And if this is true and Siri is going to be supercharged
0:42:29with some sort of LLM,
0:42:31where you could ask it to do something
0:42:33based on what's on screen or files you provided
0:42:36or pictures you provided, something like that,
0:42:39it kind of in a way like opens automation, in air quotes,
0:42:43to the masses in a new way,
0:42:45just like shortcuts did years ago.
0:42:47And I think that's really interesting.
0:42:49And I'd love to hear what y'all think about,
0:42:50like what Siri could look like with these new superpowers.
0:42:55Yeah, I think there's so much incredible potential
0:43:00when you start thinking about Siri and shortcuts together
0:43:04as sort of a service that can understand
0:43:08what you're asking in terms of features
0:43:10of the operating system and actions to take
0:43:14around the operating system and inside apps,
0:43:18which is kind of similar, I guess,
0:43:19to what the shortcuts folks are building now
0:43:23as a separate startup, right?
0:43:25Remember, what's the name of like a--
0:43:27- Computer software incorporated.
0:43:30- Computer software.
0:43:31Yeah, software Inc, something.
0:43:34But that's the idea, right?
0:43:35So I think the biggest advantage that Apple has
0:43:39compared to say OpenAI, right?
0:43:42Or these other companies that are doing generative AI,
0:43:45they have an entire OS or rather an entire ecosystem
0:43:50of operating systems that can talk to an AI
0:43:55and provide your own data.
0:43:58That for me has been the biggest obstacle
0:44:00in terms of really using something like chat GPT
0:44:03as a service on a daily basis.
0:44:06Chat GPT has no idea what's in my,
0:44:08sure, there are plugins now, blah, blah, blah.
0:44:10- You wrote one, you did SGDPT.
0:44:13- Yes, but the idea is the AI that,
0:44:17imagine if the AI lived inside my iPhone,
0:44:20inside my computer and knew about my files,
0:44:23knew how to say open a PDF and resize it,
0:44:27or stuff like, hey, take the latest five screenshots
0:44:31and zip them up and send them to John on iMessage.
0:44:34Like that's the kind of stuff you would previously
0:44:37write a shortcut for.
0:44:38But as Steven said, that was a one-off task.
0:44:41Do you really wanna write a shortcut for a one-off task?
0:44:44What if you could just write that down as a request
0:44:47or speak it as a spoken command
0:44:50and the system did it for you?
0:44:52Now that's, I think, the power of generative AI
0:44:56and a large language model that understands
0:44:58what you're asking and knows how to act on your own data.
0:45:03That for me is the key point here.
0:45:05- Is my worry with this, right?
0:45:07So that's a great thing that you suggested
0:45:10and I'm sure they could probably use like Intents
0:45:12as a way to power some of that, right?
0:45:14Like I have some of the bones that they would need
0:45:17for like little things that an app can do.
0:45:20The thing that I worry about is like, oh, save a task to,
0:45:26you know, remind me to do the same, save a task to this.
0:45:30I don't wanna say with Todoist, right?
0:45:34- To Daoist, you mean.
0:45:35I think it's pretty good.
0:45:36- Add lunch with Federico to Fantastical, you know?
0:45:41And that's the way they've done this kind of stuff
0:45:44in the past.
0:45:45You can't just say what apps you wanna use
0:45:49like to the system and it will remember them.
0:45:52You have to like make it clear,
0:45:54like I'll save this thing to Todoist,
0:45:57to remember the milk, to OmniFocus.
0:46:00And like that's gonna be too much friction in there
0:46:04where this, what they could implement,
0:46:07what I hope they do implement is that this model
0:46:10that they create can have a memory.
0:46:12- Yes, I was just about to say this model
0:46:14should have a data storage for your own preferences.
0:46:18- This is something that I know ChatGPT is starting to do now
0:46:21that you will be able to give it information about you
0:46:24and it will remember it.
0:46:26Like, and it will remember it across all of the chats
0:46:28that you have, not just like the singular ones.
0:46:30So like it's an actual real memory that it will have
0:46:34rather than just needing to reread everything
0:46:36you've ever said to it to remember something.
0:46:38So like stuff like that would be good.
0:46:40And that is very important that they do it that way.
0:46:45Like if they want this thing to be truly useful
0:46:47that we get that.
0:46:48And this is the beginning of that dream
0:46:51of like the knowledge navigator all over again, right?
0:46:55So you can have an actual conversation with the computer
0:47:01it will understand you, give you information
0:47:04and then you can ask the computer to do things for you.
0:47:06Like we are potentially very close now to having that
0:47:11but they really have to make some fundamental decisions
0:47:15early and correctly for us to get there, you know?
0:47:19- And my other question is, and I guess, you know
0:47:23or we can mention this because it's in Steven's
0:47:26extensive list of links here.
0:47:30Should you just, you know, are these features
0:47:32these requests that you may ask a brand new serial AI
0:47:36just going to be spoken requests
0:47:38or will you be able to type them out as in a chat bot?
0:47:43And one of the latest reports that we've heard
0:47:46is that spotlight is also going to be infused
0:47:49with these new AI features, which makes total sense, right?
0:47:53There's times when you're working
0:47:54and you want to get assistance from an AI
0:47:57and you don't want to speak to Siri all the time.
0:48:00So if Apple can do with a brand new spotlight
0:48:04a version of essentially chat GPT
0:48:06where you just have a written conversation
0:48:10that you type out and you get responses from the AI
0:48:15and you get results from the AI
0:48:17I think that's going to be excellent.
0:48:18So that, you know, you can have
0:48:21this is the sort of advantage again that Apple has
0:48:23in terms of like this multimodal interaction system
0:48:27where the same AI could be used from spotlight
0:48:30could be used with Siri on your phone
0:48:33with Siri on your Mac, when you're wearing AirPods
0:48:36when you're using the Apple watch,
0:48:37like all those places where you
0:48:40maybe even from the software keyboard
0:48:42like all those places where Apple could in theory
0:48:45put in AI features are the sort of advantages
0:48:48that other companies don't have
0:48:50because they don't own your computer or your phone.
0:48:54- Yep.
0:48:56Another area of reporting that I think is really interesting
0:49:00and I think a really obvious direction for Apple to move
0:49:03into is a co-pilot like feature in Xcode.
0:49:07So this is been rolled out
0:49:09across a bunch of Microsoft products.
0:49:11You can get it in Office 365.
0:49:12You can get it in GitHub.
0:49:14I think it was there first
0:49:15where the large language model can predict
0:49:20and finish writing code for you.
0:49:23So the language model knows all about Swift
0:49:26and Swift UI and Objective-C and UIKit and everything else.
0:49:31Maybe they'll even teach you about AppKit.
0:49:32You never know.
0:49:33And they might go that far back
0:49:34and it then can help assist you in writing your code
0:49:39and even maybe potentially find bugs in your code
0:49:43or suggest more efficient ways of doing something.
0:49:47This seems like something that they've got to do.
0:49:51This is in other IDEs.
0:49:53This is in other applications.
0:49:57And I suspect out of everything on this list,
0:49:59if we see anything, we would see this first.
0:50:03- I think the time has passed to just do this only.
0:50:06Like this felt like we were talking about this last year
0:50:09at WWDC as a feature they might do.
0:50:12- Yeah.
0:50:13- Like, I think if this was something,
0:50:15like you said, like, yeah, they should do this,
0:50:17but this now just needs to be one of the many things.
0:50:20- Yes.
0:50:21- The time has passed where this is the only thing
0:50:23you can get away with.
0:50:24- And it's an area where the specific knowledge set
0:50:29is smaller than something generalized like Siri, right?
0:50:33Siri, if it's gonna do all the things we want it to do,
0:50:35it's got a lot of stuff.
0:50:37And if it's fenced in basically around Xcode,
0:50:42then something like this could be really useful, right?
0:50:48The knowledge, the domain knowledge is smaller
0:50:51than anything someone might do in an iPhone, right?
0:50:54So I do expect that we'll see this.
0:50:56- I'd be really curious to, you know,
0:50:59we'll revisit this topic in June.
0:51:01A couple of things on my mind.
0:51:03One, is this gonna be Swift and SwiftUI only?
0:51:06Did they train the model on only Swift or also Objective-C?
0:51:11And two, did they train the model
0:51:13on private Apple internal code?
0:51:18Because the thing about GitHub copilot
0:51:21is that it's trained on open source code
0:51:23from GitHub, by and large.
0:51:25I expect Apple didn't follow that route.
0:51:29And I mean, where does the code that they use
0:51:33to train the Xcode copilot come from?
0:51:36And it'd be interesting to see if, you know,
0:51:40maybe the AI tool in Xcode autocompletes code for you
0:51:44that was actually written by an Apple engineer
0:51:46for like, say, Springboard or something.
0:51:49I'd be curious to know the source.
0:51:50With this entire initiative, I am really curious
0:51:54to know the source of Apple's data.
0:51:56There were also the reports, right?
0:51:58That Apple was gonna try and strike licensing deals
0:52:01with publications to train the source of content
0:52:05for generative AI.
0:52:07There is also the rumor going around this past week
0:52:10that Reddit was shopping around a licensing deal
0:52:13of $60 million to basically say,
0:52:18"Hey, company, we're gonna give you access to our data.
0:52:21If you wanna train your generative AI model,
0:52:23give us $60 million in return."
0:52:26So maybe Apple could be behind that deal, we don't know.
0:52:29But I really wanna see how Apple trained
0:52:34all these different models in all the different domains.
0:52:37- I remember a report from some time ago,
0:52:40I think it was a Montgomery report,
0:52:42that when they were building or starting to build out
0:52:44their models, I think it's called Ajax internally,
0:52:48they were really concerned about training it
0:52:50on their own data.
0:52:52Like Apple did not want to do that.
0:52:54And I was concerned internally that it would
0:52:57give away secrets basically.
0:53:00So I wouldn't expect this is trained on,
0:53:03I expect that this will be trained the same way
0:53:05that they trained the photos machine learning model,
0:53:07which is they have bought as much data as they possibly can.
0:53:11So could I imagine they've done a deal with Reddit?
0:53:13Yes, and I imagine if they've done this,
0:53:15they've done deals with as literally as many people
0:53:17as they possibly can to get as much information
0:53:20as they possibly can.
0:53:21Which if they have done that,
0:53:23it does still beg the same questions
0:53:25that a lot of companies have, which is like,
0:53:27it's quote unquote, fair use, which I don't agree with.
0:53:31But this is the world that we live in today.
0:53:33- Yeah, that's a whole complicated sidebar.
0:53:36I did sell Apple the entire Mac stories archive
0:53:39for AI training though.
0:53:41- Okay, cool.
0:53:42How much?
0:53:43- It was like eight bucks.
0:53:46- Cool, cool.
0:53:47- The model's gonna know a lot about shortcuts,
0:53:51but it's not gonna be able to do any of those things.
0:53:53- I mean, what's new?
0:53:54The last sort of AI rumor that I think is worth
0:54:00touching on today is an AI wellness coach.
0:54:05So the goal would be to keep users motivated
0:54:09to exercise and monitor their eating habits.
0:54:13- Clippy, but for workouts.
0:54:14- Yep.
0:54:16- Clippy, but for workouts.
0:54:17- Maybe flippy, 'cause it's like pretty acrobatic.
0:54:20- Or rippy, so you get strong, you know?
0:54:22- Yeah, rippy, that's it, that's the one.
0:54:27Get rippy, baby.
0:54:28- Get rippy, it's time to get rippy.
0:54:31Get rippy with Team Cook.
0:54:33- From the beginning,
0:54:34the Apple Watch has made suggestions, right?
0:54:36It's like, hey, stand up.
0:54:37Hey, if you go, the most frustrating one is like,
0:54:40it's 11 p.m., hey, if you went for a quick 30 minute walk,
0:54:43you'd close your ring.
0:54:44It's like, it's 11 p.m., bro, I'm not going outside.
0:54:47This, I think, out of all of them, is the most delicate.
0:54:50I think you've really got it.
0:54:52You really don't want this AI to hallucinate
0:54:54and tell somebody to do something they shouldn't do
0:54:57when it comes to health and wellness,
0:54:59but we'll see if Apple crosses this bridge.
0:55:01I'm the most dubious about this one, I think,
0:55:03actually showing up in the world.
0:55:05But this one though, this one sells Fitness Plus.
0:55:09Like this one sells a service, even.
0:55:12The rest of them, boo.
0:55:14There's no money in that.
0:55:15- Imagine if the AI wellness coach
0:55:17is like a virtual persona
0:55:22that talks to you. - It could be.
0:55:24- And he's as creepy as a persona.
0:55:27- You know, I just had the thought,
0:55:29it's gonna be really interesting to understand
0:55:32where and how this information's processed.
0:55:36Is it, could it even be all on device?
0:55:39Is there gonna need to be some cloud stuff?
0:55:41I think there's gonna need to be a mixture.
0:55:43Maybe that you could, if you're an Apple One subscriber,
0:55:46you might get priority or speed increases.
0:55:50- Over your-- - I don't wanna think
0:55:52about that stuff, well, yeah. - I'm telling you, man.
0:55:54- But yeah, you're right.
0:55:55Yeah, this is how this stuff works, yeah.
0:55:57- The more I hear about this stuff,
0:56:00the more I understand, it's just raw power.
0:56:02And I think there's gonna be a lot of these things
0:56:05where they will not be able to power it on device.
0:56:08It has to be powered in a data center somewhere.
0:56:11That's gonna be really interesting if they do that
0:56:13because they've spent so much time over the last few years
0:56:16about things that are on device, on device.
0:56:19And maybe some of it will be able to, but I just,
0:56:22I don't, you know, looking at the amount of data
0:56:26that's processed for, say, chat GPT,
0:56:29and it all needs to be done in these huge data centers,
0:56:32I can't imagine the chip in my iPhone
0:56:34is really gonna be able to be comparable with that, but.
0:56:37- That's gonna be a lot of carbon to offset for Apple.
0:56:41- Yes, yep. - That'll be interesting.
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0:58:58So we've talked about rumors.
0:59:02Now I wanna talk a little bit about what Apple has shipped.
0:59:07And most recently, it was the,
0:59:09I hope you're sitting down for this,
0:59:11multimodal large language models guided image editing,
0:59:15or MG, MG, MGIE?
0:59:19MG, why is it not editor?
0:59:22I don't know, man.
0:59:24(laughs)
0:59:25I feel like it kind of falls off at the end there.
0:59:27It does.
0:59:29This was covered, this was just a couple of weeks ago.
0:59:33This is a tool that you can use to edit photos.
0:59:38And there were some examples like here's a pizza,
0:59:41make it more healthy, and it added vegetable toppings,
0:59:43or lighten and enhance the image,
0:59:47make the screen green instead of white.
0:59:50I mean, kind of the basic image editing things
0:59:52that most people may want to do, but may not know how to--
0:59:55This pizza looks so bad.
0:59:57Do people edit their photos
1:00:00to make their pizzas look healthier?
1:00:03Is that a thing that people do?
1:00:04It's like, hey, hey, you're sending a text to your wife
1:00:07or something like, hey, look, I got myself
1:00:10such a healthy pizza tonight with all these veggies on top,
1:00:14where in fact you got the dirtiest pepperoni ever.
1:00:18Is that a thing that people do?
1:00:20Okay.
1:00:22I mean, maybe, look.
1:00:23I guess this is more, it's not the practical application,
1:00:27it's the theoretical, right, that like--
1:00:29The theoretical.
1:00:30You can say make this more healthy,
1:00:32and its response is to add greenery, which--
1:00:36And Rippy pops up like, uh-uh, I see what you're doing.
1:00:39Yeah, Rippy's back, you can't eat that pizza.
1:00:43Eat this bowl of broccoli instead.
1:00:45Rippy won't stand for pizza.
1:00:49And so like, yeah, look, it is ridiculous.
1:00:52Like, honestly, the results of all of these
1:00:54are just like really weird to me,
1:00:55but I guess this is what these kinds of papers are like,
1:00:59but I guess it's showing that it understood the request
1:01:04even if the result is strange, right?
1:01:07Yeah, I think that's what they're after,
1:01:10and this, I think, is an example of like,
1:01:13people get this sort of thing, right?
1:01:15It's kind of hard to say like, oh, series enhanced with AI,
1:01:18like what does that actually mean?
1:01:19But if you could tell your computer, your phone,
1:01:22hey, I have this picture of us,
1:01:24and can you take that weird person out of the background?
1:01:29Or, you know, whatever it is, like.
1:01:30And if you look at what Samsung just did
1:01:32on a bunch of their phones,
1:01:34it's very much in this, sort of in this vein.
1:01:37So it makes sense that Apple would get this out there
1:01:41and let people be poking around it.
1:01:44Like, apparently, like if you have the right software,
1:01:46you can go play with this now.
1:01:47I looked at it for like three seconds
1:01:49and then realized this is beyond
1:01:51what I'm capable of doing today, and I kind of moved on.
1:01:55But it's out there in the world, you know,
1:01:58well before it's in a product, right?
1:01:59This isn't in iOS today, but it very well could be.
1:02:03- Man, I don't know.
1:02:05And there's just something to me about like,
1:02:08that is weird for Apple to be like,
1:02:12we made a Magic Editor as well.
1:02:14There's just something about that,
1:02:18that just feels strange.
1:02:19This stuff is going to be so hard to sell to the world,
1:02:24especially to us at WWDC.
1:02:26Like, to show me all these things that you're doing,
1:02:30things that today I think are dubious at best
1:02:34that we've had this technology in our pockets.
1:02:37And then Apple's like, we put it in photos, potentially.
1:02:40And it's like, ah.
1:02:41- I think it's weird because it's in direct contrast
1:02:45to the fact that Apple usually prides itself
1:02:48upon the pure art of photography.
1:02:53And, you know, and like you're basically here
1:02:57taking photography, and I know that they have
1:03:00machine learning-based enhancements,
1:03:02but they don't drastically alter the contents of a photo,
1:03:06almost as a sacred entity, if you will.
1:03:09And here we're talking about these features of like,
1:03:10hey, I'll change this pizza,
1:03:13or take out this person from the shot,
1:03:16or like that fundamentally change the truth of a photo.
1:03:21And so I think that's why, at least for me,
1:03:23this all sounds very un-Apple-y at the moment, but.
1:03:26- But maybe there's no choice.
1:03:28- Maybe there's no choice.
1:03:30- No.
1:03:31- Yeah, I can't imagine, I mean, like you said,
1:03:35this guy gets hired from Google,
1:03:37and now he's doing all this.
1:03:38I'm sure that wasn't the plan,
1:03:39but maybe there is expectation set in the marketplace, right?
1:03:44The Pixel can do this. - Oh, there is.
1:03:46- Samsung stuff can do this.
1:03:47Maybe they've got to.
1:03:49- Yeah, that's what I mean.
1:03:50I don't think that there is a choice.
1:03:52Like, they can find their way of doing it,
1:03:54but I think some of these features
1:03:56are gonna start to become table stakes.
1:03:58Like Magic Eraser is such a good commercial.
1:04:02- Yes, yeah.
1:04:04- Like, it is a fantastic commercial,
1:04:06and I think they're gonna struggle with that, right?
1:04:10'Cause who doesn't have that one image in their library
1:04:13where they really wish they could adjust it?
1:04:14Like, it's just a thing people feel in their lives.
1:04:18And I don't think it's in Google Photos today,
1:04:22but like at a certain point, maybe Google do that.
1:04:24I don't know, and then it's like makes it,
1:04:26I don't know if it makes it better or worse,
1:04:28but it's an awkward situation to be in
1:04:33for if they take some kind of stance,
1:04:35which is like, we're never gonna do this.
1:04:38It's like, I think I might agree with what you're saying,
1:04:41but from a business perspective,
1:04:43that would not be a good idea, I don't think.
1:04:46- Yeah.
1:04:47So moving on from the multimodal large language models
1:04:52guided image editing, a related tool is Apple Keyframer.
1:04:57And so this is an AI animation tool
1:04:59that lets you take a single image
1:05:01and then use natural language
1:05:03to tell the assistant how to animate it.
1:05:07So the example given in the nine to five article is
1:05:09you have a picture of a planet,
1:05:11you say make the planet spin, it builds the frames
1:05:15and the animation to make that possible.
1:05:17So related, but different.
1:05:20And I think making things move,
1:05:23like it sounds so stupid as I'm gonna say it,
1:05:25but I really think it's a thing.
1:05:27That takes the what is a photo, what is real concept
1:05:31and really makes it more complicated, right?
1:05:34We saw that with Sora, the open AI video generator
1:05:37that I'm sure every one of the planet
1:05:39has seen all this creepy videos.
1:05:41Like there's something about these tools
1:05:42making something move that feels like a bigger deal.
1:05:46And I kind of had that same response
1:05:48to learning about Keyframer.
1:05:50- But it could also be really cool
1:05:52for app and game development.
1:05:54- Yeah, absolutely.
1:05:56Like what, yeah, if this were built into Reality Composer
1:05:59or something like that, right?
1:06:00It could be a big deal.
1:06:02- Yes, with playgrounds, like all the sort of tools,
1:06:05I think it could be really helpful.
1:06:06- Yeah. - Yeah.
1:06:08- So some developer tools that they've released,
1:06:11there's three that I wanna touch on.
1:06:13Apple MLX, AX Learn library for deep learning.
1:06:18And then my favorite name, Apple Ferret.
1:06:22- Ferret. - Like the animal.
1:06:25- Nice.
1:06:26- So the first couple MLX and AX Learn library,
1:06:30these are machine learning AI frameworks
1:06:33where developers can use the frameworks
1:06:36to run efficiently on Apple Silicon.
1:06:38And then the AX Learn library is about taking that
1:06:42and making it really large scale.
1:06:43So these are tools--
1:06:45- Tell me about the Ferret, I wanna know about the Ferret.
1:06:47- There's something about the Ferret.
1:06:47- Yeah, well, no one cares about this
1:06:48'cause you teach Ferret. - AX Learn,
1:06:50no, give me the Ferret.
1:06:50- Boo, Ferret, Ferret. - I'll give you the Ferret.
1:06:53- Ferret, Ferret, Ferret.
1:06:55- So Apple Ferret is a joint project
1:06:58between Apple and Cornell University.
1:07:00- Okay, okay, educated.
1:07:02- Education and-- - Highbrow Ferret.
1:07:04Ivy League Ferret.
1:07:06- He's wearing a little tie, you know?
1:07:08And it is research into how large language models
1:07:14can recognize elements within a picture image.
1:07:18So if you look at the link in the show notes,
1:07:20it's like a picture of a cat.
1:07:23And how do we know what the tail of the cat looks like?
1:07:26- Obviously, the Ferret would know it's a cat.
1:07:28- Yep, or Ferret.
1:07:30How do we know where the head of the Ferret is
1:07:31versus the foot of the Ferret, right?
1:07:34So you can see how this could play in
1:07:37with the other things we've spoken about, right?
1:07:39If you're gonna have an image editor
1:07:41or an animation editor.
1:07:42Well, those things need to know what things are, right?
1:07:46So if it's like, hey, take the tail off this cat,
1:07:50maybe you don't like-- - No, don't do it.
1:07:52- Well, you can't do it in real life,
1:07:53but you could do it in AI.
1:07:55- No. - No, you shouldn't.
1:07:57- But it also needs to know for cutting things out of images
1:07:59and like, okay, what is attached to the cat?
1:08:01Do cats have tails?
1:08:03Computers don't know any of this stuff.
1:08:04Computers are stupid, and so we have to teach them.
1:08:07And so Apple Ferret is looking at how do we build models
1:08:12where images understand the components
1:08:16that make up the subjects in those images.
1:08:19Apple Ferret.
1:08:20- I'm sure there are a lot of people
1:08:22working really hard on this stuff, right?
1:08:23It seems very, very complicated.
1:08:25- Very nerdy.
1:08:26- But whenever I see these papers, so both of these,
1:08:30why does, like, why don't they just get someone
1:08:33to help them design the graphics?
1:08:35Like, what happens?
1:08:37Like, so on the previous one,
1:08:39we were talking about with the pizza,
1:08:40like, I've seen this image a bunch of times now,
1:08:43and like, why doesn't the text,
1:08:45why don't the text labels actually line up with the images?
1:08:48It looks like it was made in Word,
1:08:50which I'm like 100% sure it was made in Word.
1:08:53Like, you got the two images,
1:08:55you got like the two text labels,
1:08:56and like one of the text labels
1:08:58is like only over 25% of the image,
1:09:00and the other one is like flocked 100% to the image.
1:09:03And then this Ferret one, like, what is going on?
1:09:06What is that cartoon character in the corner?
1:09:09Like, what is happening in these images?
1:09:12- Yeah, I mean, come on,
1:09:14SVP of AI, hire a graphic designer, you know?
1:09:17Just one, just one graphic designer.
1:09:19- No, it's big, graphic design is my passion and energy
1:09:22in all these images, for sure.
1:09:24- Or, you know, if you really don't wanna hire someone,
1:09:27make a machine learning model to do it, you know?
1:09:31Just like, make someone do it for you.
1:09:34It's a very strange.
1:09:36- It is.
1:09:37- It's very strange.
1:09:38- It really is.
1:09:40The last thing I just wanna point out,
1:09:42Apple has obviously also published research materials.
1:09:45I picked this one 'cause of the name,
1:09:47Specialized Language Models for Cheap Inference
1:09:50on Limited Domain Data.
1:09:52So it has to do with the other frameworks they've done,
1:09:55basically looking at cost efficient approaches
1:09:59to AI development.
1:10:01And what I thought when I saw this was twofold.
1:10:03One, this could be great for small developers
1:10:08or people who are gonna kinda do this in their own app
1:10:10or on their own servers somehow.
1:10:13Or if Apple's gonna do a bunch of this,
1:10:16they want it to be cheaper for them and their data centers
1:10:18if they do it on the data center.
1:10:20But cheaper and cost efficient also means smaller.
1:10:23And maybe this also has to do,
1:10:25look, I skimmed this paper.
1:10:28I didn't understand every third word.
1:10:29It is hard to understand what these people are doing
1:10:31if you're just a regular person like we are.
1:10:34But you can imagine this sort of research also goes into,
1:10:38I wanna run this locally on a phone.
1:10:40I wanna run this locally on a laptop.
1:10:42And making this more efficient is cheaper in the data center
1:10:46and makes it possible along with the other frameworks
1:10:49that you cut me off about Apple Silicon
1:10:51and making it as efficient as possible there.
1:10:53Like these pieces are coming together, right?
1:10:56That Apple is like putting all these pieces,
1:10:58putting them together.
1:10:59And I think products are gonna come out at the other end.
1:11:01I think we're gonna start to see that this summer.
1:11:03And that's fun.
1:11:04And it's fun to see what they're doing ahead of time
1:11:07'cause normally we don't get this, you know what I mean?
1:11:11- These people are so smart.
1:11:13Like I'm looking at that paper you referenced, Steven.
1:11:16The people that do this stuff, they're just so clever.
1:11:20Like in a whole different world.
1:11:22- In a way they will never be this smart, you know?
1:11:25- I'm happy with my talents and my skills in life.
1:11:29Like I'm confident in those and I'm happy with where I am.
1:11:32I will never be this smart.
1:11:34And I don't think there is any course of my life
1:11:37that could have led me to be able to write
1:11:40specialized language models with cheap inference
1:11:42from limited domain data.
1:11:44I don't think I could have ever done this.
1:11:46- It was never in the cards for any of us.
1:11:47- It was not gonna happen for me, it just wasn't.
1:11:49And you know what?
1:11:50I'm fine with that.
1:11:51I'm fine with that.
1:11:52- The highest I can go is probably buy an actual ferret.
1:11:56I think that's as far as I can put it.
1:11:58- That's as far as your brain will allow.
1:11:59- As far as I, look, I have a ferret.
1:12:01I'd like an actual ferret.
1:12:02- Ferret ownership.
1:12:03- Yeah.
1:12:05Steven, thank you for this research.
1:12:08All the links, thank you.
1:12:11I think hopefully we have a better understanding
1:12:13of at least some of the things that are expecting us in June.
1:12:18I'm sure more reports will come out
1:12:19over the next couple of months, but this is great.
1:12:22Thank you.
1:12:23- Yeah, it was really fascinating to see what they're doing.
1:12:26And like I said a second ago,
1:12:28software and hardware, we get rumors, right?
1:12:31But this is actual work that Apple is doing in the field.
1:12:35And that's just so unlike what we normally get to talk about.
1:12:39So it was a lot of fun to dive into.
1:12:42- I think what this shows is that
1:12:44if you wanna do this stuff, you will only get good hires
1:12:48if you allow them to publish.
1:12:50- Yes.
1:12:51- And it is so on Apple,
1:12:53but I think is a good sign that they're serious, right?
1:12:58Like for example, we spoke about it before,
1:13:02like if you write, people that write stuff on the app store,
1:13:05they don't put their names on it.
1:13:06Like they're not allowed to put their names on it.
1:13:08Like you can't sign like, oh, I was this person
1:13:11and I wrote this story on the app store, right?
1:13:13Like that's not a thing that the writers
1:13:16and the app store teams get to do.
1:13:19And that maybe limits the type of people
1:13:21that they would be able to employ,
1:13:22people that want to put their name on their work.
1:13:25But like this is an example of that,
1:13:27where if you are a researcher, you want to be published
1:13:31because that's what it's all about.
1:13:34And they are allowing these people to do that
1:13:37because I guess, because they are aware of the fact
1:13:39that they're only gonna get the brightest minds
1:13:42if they allow them to continue publishing.
1:13:45And I expect that there's some stuff
1:13:47that they can't publish yet,
1:13:48but we'll be able to publish later
1:13:49once the products have been announced as well.
1:13:52And that you kind of get it that way.
1:13:54- Yeah, I think there'll be a whole flood
1:13:57of these white papers and research documents.
1:14:00Again, not that we know what they say,
1:14:01like seriously, go look at the PDF that's in the show notes.
1:14:05It's next level.
1:14:06It's very easy to get through the first like three sentences
1:14:11and then it falls apart real fast, real fast.
1:14:14- Yeah, and then you get into like some of the later pages,
1:14:16there's like mathematical equations.
1:14:19- There's a lot of charts and there's a lot of lines.
1:14:21And I guess I should know what the generic pre-training cost
1:14:25versus generic complexity graph is,
1:14:28but I actually don't know what that means.
1:14:30- Well, have you considered the conclusion
1:14:32of the hyper network research on small documents?
1:14:36- You just opened it up for me, now I understand.
1:14:38Thank you.
1:14:39- Good. - Thank you.
1:14:40- Good.
1:14:41I think that does it for this week.
1:14:44Thanks for hanging out with us.
1:14:46We love doing this show and we love doing it for you.
1:14:48- Hope you found it pleasurable.
1:14:49- We did, the most pleasurable podcast.
1:14:52If you want more of us, we're online.
1:14:55Federico is the editor-in-chief of maxstories.net.
1:14:58Continues to be the home of amazing Vision OS app coverage.
1:15:01Like I feel like every time I open max stories,
1:15:03you're costing me money.
1:15:05I've downloaded so many new apps.
1:15:07- Great.
1:15:07- If only there was an app affiliate program
1:15:09you could take advantage of.
1:15:10- I know, right?
1:15:11(laughing)
1:15:14- Too soon?
1:15:14Federico is on threads as Vatici
1:15:17and he's on Mastodon as vatici@maxstories.net.
1:15:22You can find Mike's work on a bunch of other shows
1:15:25here on Relay FM.
1:15:26Episode 500 of Upgrade, congratulations.
1:15:29- Thank you.
1:15:30- You started after us, but you passed us in numbers.
1:15:32- Yep, it's just a very strange thing to have occurred.
1:15:35- It is very, very strange.
1:15:38A lovely episode, y'all talked about the report card.
1:15:41You do this cool thing where you do,
1:15:43basically it's like a lame version of the Ricky's
1:15:46for every hundred episodes.
1:15:48- I wouldn't call it that, it's a draft,
1:15:50which I think drafts predate the Ricky's.
1:15:53- That doesn't sound right to me.
1:15:55- Right, okay, okay.
1:15:57- I'll come back with a white paper.
1:15:59You can follow Mike on threads as imike
1:16:01and he is on Mastodon as imike@mike.social.
1:16:05You can find my writing on 512pixels.net
1:16:08and I co-host Mac Power Users.
1:16:10It comes out each and every Sunday here on Relay FM.
1:16:13I am ismh@eworld.social on Mastodon
1:16:16and ismh86 over on threads.
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1:16:24And until next time, say goodbye.
1:16:27- I'll leave it there, cheerio.
1:16:29- Bye, y'all.