Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► [INTRO MUSIC PLAYS]

00:00:02 ◼   ► From Real Efem, this is Connected, episode 489.

00:00:11 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Fitbot and ExpressVPN.

00:00:14 ◼   ► I'm one of your co-hosts, Federico Vittitchie, and it's my pleasure to introduce to the show,

00:00:18 ◼   ► Mr. Stephen Hackett. Hello, Stephen.

00:00:20 ◼   ► Hello, Federico. How are you?

00:00:22 ◼   ► How are you? Well, I'm good.

00:00:24 ◼   ► Jinx! Jinx, I'm good. How are you? You all too good?

00:00:27 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

00:00:28 ◼   ► Good. A little under the weather, but good.

00:00:30 ◼   ► And we're joined by that voice you heard, Mr. Mike Hurley.

00:00:35 ◼   ► Hello. Jinx is the worst thing to do on a podcast.

00:00:39 ◼   ► It's true. I know, right?

00:00:40 ◼   ► Right? Now that we have an editor,

00:00:41 ◼   ► I have to make a note to leave it in. It's not crosstalk, it's funny.

00:00:44 ◼   ► Yeah. Well, Jim knows that.

00:00:46 ◼   ► Jim knows that funny crosstalk can exist. Yeah, definitely.

00:00:50 ◼   ► You know? Definitely.

00:00:53 ◼   ► Okay. So we're here. We're recording this on Friday.

00:00:57 ◼   ► Just be warned. It's already a bit weird.

00:01:00 ◼   ► I should also have a disclaimer up front,

00:01:02 ◼   ► given that this is a weird episode because it's recorded on Friday.

00:01:06 ◼   ► I'm also wearing my Vision Pro right now, and I'm using the virtual Mac display mode.

00:01:10 ◼   ► It's a weird experience that I'm experiencing right now.

00:01:15 ◼   ► Why?

00:01:16 ◼   ► So, well, for example, I mean, besides the fact that I have a bunch of windows around me,

00:01:23 ◼   ► there's also the fact that I made the Mac display giant and I pushed...

00:01:29 ◼   ► It's almost like I pushed it into the wall in front of me.

00:01:33 ◼   ► So my sense of depth right now is all kinds of screwed up.

00:01:38 ◼   ► And it's almost like my brain cannot process that.

00:01:42 ◼   ► It's almost like my wall is now a tunnel and the display is into the wall.

00:01:47 ◼   ► It's weird, but I'm choosing to go with it because I'm embracing the weirdness of this moment.

00:01:54 ◼   ► Having heard the way that you designed and decorated your office,

00:01:58 ◼   ► the idea of embedding a large monitor into the wall

00:02:01 ◼   ► seems like something that you would have enjoyed.

00:02:02 ◼   ► So I'm all for it.

00:02:04 ◼   ► I was getting ready to ask,

00:02:06 ◼   ► how long until you change up your office so you have more Z-axis behind your desk?

00:02:12 ◼   ► So I literally had this conversation with Sylvia yesterday.

00:02:16 ◼   ► Environments exist.

00:02:19 ◼   ► You don't need to make the room bigger.

00:02:21 ◼   ► They don't for him. He's been having trouble with that.

00:02:24 ◼   ► We'll get to that later.

00:02:25 ◼   ► No, I don't want to make the room bigger.

00:02:26 ◼   ► I was just saying, "Hey, now that I have this vision problem, I'm kind of wondering,

00:02:29 ◼   ► do I need this giant desk and the studio display on my wall

00:02:34 ◼   ► if I can actually make my "virtual desk" much bigger and have a much bigger display?

00:02:40 ◼   ► Do I need this table here?

00:02:43 ◼   ► I probably don't.

00:02:43 ◼   ► I just need space for a keyboard and a microphone.

00:02:46 ◼   ► And I don't even need the studio display anymore.

00:02:49 ◼   ► This is doable.

00:02:50 ◼   ► Besides the sense of depth that I just mentioned.

00:02:52 ◼   ► And maybe there's a way to get used to this.

00:02:56 ◼   ► But I don't need all of this stuff anymore.

00:03:00 ◼   ► I mean, this is nice.

00:03:01 ◼   ► Anyway, that's my disclaimer.

00:03:02 ◼   ► I really would like to recommend/insist that you do not make any changes.

00:03:09 ◼   ► For now.

00:03:10 ◼   ► Right now.

00:03:11 ◼   ► For now.

00:03:11 ◼   ► Just give it a little bit more time.

00:03:13 ◼   ► Yeah, give it just a tiny, tiny bit more time before you rip the studio display off your wall.

00:03:20 ◼   ► Look, I resisted the temptation of decapitating my MacBook Air.

00:03:26 ◼   ► So I have some resistance left in me for these kinds of temptations.

00:03:31 ◼   ► So that's the disclaimer up front.

00:03:35 ◼   ► Now we can do follow up.

00:03:36 ◼   ► Some.

00:03:37 ◼   ► Well, Mike, do you have any disclaimers?

00:03:39 ◼   ► I went to the gym today before we recorded.

00:03:45 ◼   ► Are you sweaty right now?

00:03:47 ◼   ► No, my body hurts.

00:03:49 ◼   ► But my point is I don't usually record podcasts on Friday for that reason.

00:03:54 ◼   ► Right.

00:03:55 ◼   ► So I don't know what my energy output is going to be like over the course of today's episode.

00:04:01 ◼   ► Do you feel like you want to lie down for a little bit?

00:04:03 ◼   ► I actually do kind of feel like I want to lie down.

00:04:05 ◼   ► Too bad I'm not reading any flexi rules this week, or you could.

00:04:08 ◼   ► I know.

00:04:09 ◼   ► You can lie down.

00:04:10 ◼   ► We can do follow up.

00:04:11 ◼   ► I've had a very busy couple of days.

00:04:13 ◼   ► And like with weird sleeping times, which is why we are recording on a different day today.

00:04:18 ◼   ► Because I met three time Formula One world champion Max Verstappen.

00:04:23 ◼   ► I'm having a really good February, by the way.

00:04:26 ◼   ► You really are.

00:04:26 ◼   ► I can just say that.

00:04:27 ◼   ► Like in two weeks, I shook hands with Tim Cook and Max Verstappen.

00:04:32 ◼   ► This is like, it's all kind of coming up Mike over here.

00:04:34 ◼   ► All right.

00:04:35 ◼   ► Like in this year of our Lord.

00:04:37 ◼   ► Now you know I got to ask, who has the better handshake?

00:04:40 ◼   ► Max Verstappen.

00:04:43 ◼   ► I mean, look, Tim Cook, right?

00:04:46 ◼   ► Tim Cook is a strong guy.

00:04:48 ◼   ► Max Verstappen is like a world class all time athlete.

00:04:52 ◼   ► Like that just inherently good handshake.

00:04:54 ◼   ► Although I will say while Max had a good, my handshake with Tim was better.

00:05:00 ◼   ► Like with Max, I had one of those kind of like, I didn't fully get to commit to the

00:05:04 ◼   ► handshake and he only got like half of my hand, you know?

00:05:07 ◼   ► Not good.

00:05:09 ◼   ► But he's got, he's got those hands, you know, grabbing the steering wheel.

00:05:12 ◼   ► He didn't.

00:05:12 ◼   ► He can, it doesn't matter to him, you know, he can take one finger and it's like,

00:05:17 ◼   ► uh, okay.

00:05:21 ◼   ► So that that's been established.

00:05:22 ◼   ► Max Verstappen has a better handshake than Tim Cook.

00:05:25 ◼   ► That's your disclaimer.

00:05:27 ◼   ► So now we can do follow up.

00:05:28 ◼   ► We sure can.

00:05:29 ◼   ► Follow up.

00:05:30 ◼   ► Mustachary wrote in.

00:05:33 ◼   ► That was really bad.

00:05:34 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:05:34 ◼   ► Yeah, I know.

00:05:35 ◼   ► I don't sound good.

00:05:36 ◼   ► Mustachary wrote in, does Federico still use the Xreal Air 2 Pros?

00:05:43 ◼   ► I bought it after hearing him rave about it.

00:05:46 ◼   ► And was really pleased with it myself as something I could afford more easily than the Vision

00:05:51 ◼   ► Pro.

00:05:52 ◼   ► And they go on to say how the, uh, ultra is were introduced the day after.

00:05:57 ◼   ► And anyways, what's going on Federico?

00:05:59 ◼   ► No, no, I'm sorry.

00:06:01 ◼   ► Mustachary, but I'm not using them anymore.

00:06:03 ◼   ► Friendship ended with Xreal.

00:06:05 ◼   ► Friendship ended with Xreal.

00:06:07 ◼   ► I know that they released, uh, uh, updates to the, to the Xreal Air line.

00:06:12 ◼   ► They have the Air Air 2 Ultra, um, but, but I didn't check them out.

00:06:18 ◼   ► I was just, uh, that was a good exercise for the Vision Pro to sort of put myself in a

00:06:23 ◼   ► mindset of like, what is it like to have a virtual display in front of you and get work

00:06:27 ◼   ► done in that display.

00:06:28 ◼   ► But now I'm just using the Vision Pro because it's such a much better experience and it's

00:06:33 ◼   ► wireless in the sense that I don't need to have a USB cable going into my MacBook Air

00:06:37 ◼   ► or my iPad Pro.

00:06:38 ◼   ► I can just, you know, stream, uh, Mac OS to, to my Vision Pro.

00:06:42 ◼   ► So now, um, uh, they are in a drawer somewhere and I'll put them up for sale at some point

00:06:48 ◼   ► in the near future.

00:06:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:06:51 ◼   ► Who couldn't see that coming, you know?

00:06:54 ◼   ► I mean, but, but I think I said...

00:06:56 ◼   ► I know it was part of the point.

00:06:58 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:06:58 ◼   ► I'm just doing this as a, as an exercise to get ready for the review.

00:07:02 ◼   ► I feel like you were pretty clear about that at the time, right?

00:07:05 ◼   ► It was like, I want to kind of get ready and I think it helped inform some stuff for you.

00:07:10 ◼   ► Yeah, I think it did.

00:07:11 ◼   ► I think it did.

00:07:11 ◼   ► It was a, it was an interesting exercise.

00:07:13 ◼   ► Mitch wrote in to say, because we referenced this last time, that Federico had some photos

00:07:21 ◼   ► of Tim Cook, but we didn't put any of these images in the show notes.

00:07:25 ◼   ► So I put some blinks in the show notes.

00:07:27 ◼   ► One is to the article that Federico wrote about the March 9, 2015 event, which was Federico's

00:07:34 ◼   ► first Apple event that he went to, which includes one of my favorite photos of all time, which

00:07:38 ◼   ► is just Tim and Federico, like in silhouette, which was, that was taken by Apple, that photo.

00:07:44 ◼   ► Yes.

00:07:45 ◼   ► Yes.

00:07:45 ◼   ► So that is a fantastic photo.

00:07:48 ◼   ► And then there's also a selfie on what looks like a 1930s film camera now, which is posted

00:07:57 ◼   ► to Twitter, which I've also included in the show notes.

00:08:00 ◼   ► That would have been like an iPhone 6, I guess?

00:08:02 ◼   ► It was, yeah, the 6, because it was March 2015.

00:08:06 ◼   ► So it was the 6, I was not a member of the Plus Club yet.

00:08:12 ◼   ► So that was the 6.

00:08:14 ◼   ► And it was a selfie with an iPhone 6 in a dark room right after, like five minutes after

00:08:19 ◼   ► the Apple event wrapped up and the press was already in the hands-on area.

00:08:23 ◼   ► So that's when the selfie was taken.

00:08:24 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:08:25 ◼   ► So there you go.

00:08:27 ◼   ► They're there and available if people want to read, want to go look at them.

00:08:31 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

00:08:31 ◼   ► Okay.

00:08:33 ◼   ► Mike, can you tell us about the changes for video reactions?

00:08:37 ◼   ► Yeah, so we've been talking about this a bunch on and off, right?

00:08:41 ◼   ► Over the last few months, we had that, one of my favorite pieces of follow-up all the

00:08:45 ◼   ► time, which was the video reactions during the funeral presentation.

00:08:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:08:49 ◼   ► Who could forget?

00:08:50 ◼   ► Well, in iOS 17.4, there's a couple of things going on with the video reactions feature.

00:08:57 ◼   ► So this is where you make some kind of hand reaction and some kind of effect goes off.

00:09:01 ◼   ► Well, the one which I think is very good is that there is a new API that developers can

00:09:06 ◼   ► take advantage of to disable them in their own applications.

00:09:10 ◼   ► So this is great.

00:09:11 ◼   ► So if you make like a therapy app, like we spoke about, you will be able to disable these

00:09:17 ◼   ► reactions as part of your application, which is just helpful, right?

00:09:22 ◼   ► Like it saves people with issues.

00:09:24 ◼   ► One thing I'm not 100% sure about, maybe just because I don't understand enough about how

00:09:28 ◼   ► this stuff exactly works is if it's like straight up disabled disabled, or if it's like turned

00:09:34 ◼   ► off by default in that app and then you can turn it on.

00:09:36 ◼   ► Like, I don't know the answer to that question.

00:09:38 ◼   ► But then there is a second thing.

00:09:40 ◼   ► So that was first found.

00:09:42 ◼   ► The first thing I'm talking about is found by MacRumors.

00:09:44 ◼   ► The second thing was found by 9to5Mac, where there is a system message that is referring

00:09:51 ◼   ► for people to turn on reactions so that they are inferring that potentially in 17.4 and

00:09:59 ◼   ► onwards for new users, the reactions feature may be disabled by default.

00:10:05 ◼   ► I am wondering if maybe these two things are the same thing and that this is a message

00:10:10 ◼   ► for apps where it is disabled.

00:10:12 ◼   ► But we don't know yet.

00:10:13 ◼   ► This has been like happening over the case of the 17.4 and Mac OS 14.4 beta cycle.

00:10:19 ◼   ► But it at least seems that for whatever reason, at this point, Apple has decided to make some

00:10:24 ◼   ► changes and some potential changes to the way that this feature is working.

00:10:28 ◼   ► Which more, more, I like, my favorite thing here is like, you know, I like that they actually

00:10:34 ◼   ► do enable it by default.

00:10:36 ◼   ► We spoke about that because I think it's like a fun thing to discover.

00:10:39 ◼   ► But I do like the idea of certain applications having it off by default, which I think would

00:10:46 ◼   ► be beneficial.

00:10:48 ◼   ► I don't, I can't think of the scenario in which a teletherapy app needs that on by default

00:10:54 ◼   ► and that anyone would get upset that it wasn't.

00:10:56 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:10:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:10:57 ◼   ► I had an emotional roller coaster.

00:11:01 ◼   ► That lasted 35 seconds.

00:11:03 ◼   ► Yeah, where it was announced that Job Simulator is coming to the Apple Vision Pro.

00:11:09 ◼   ► And I thought that I got my risky because I knew that the company called Alchemy Labs

00:11:14 ◼   ► was acquired.

00:11:15 ◼   ► I thought by Meta, but they were actually bought by Google.

00:11:18 ◼   ► So there was a, there was a moment where I thought that I had achieved my, uh, my risky.

00:11:26 ◼   ► I still think I'm going to, but I just haven't yet.

00:11:28 ◼   ► But I do want to say there are two things to me here.

00:11:31 ◼   ► One, I think it's great that this app is coming to Vision Pro.

00:11:35 ◼   ► Like I'm actually really pleased about this because Job Simulator is one of the most fun

00:11:41 ◼   ► VR experiences you can have.

00:11:43 ◼   ► I think the thing that is funny to me about this is I can't believe that this game is

00:11:49 ◼   ► still being put onto new platforms.

00:11:52 ◼   ► It just keeps appearing over time.

00:11:55 ◼   ► It's like, it's like almost like a zombie.

00:11:57 ◼   ► Like it just keeps appearing.

00:11:58 ◼   ► I would expect there's probably new things in the game too, but yeah, I'm actually really

00:12:03 ◼   ► excited about this.

00:12:03 ◼   ► I think this is fantastic that this is going to be, oh, Job Simulator and Vacation Simulator,

00:12:10 ◼   ► which is their follow-up, which in my opinion, while still fun, it's not as delightful as

00:12:14 ◼   ► Job Simulator is.

00:12:14 ◼   ► Have you two, Federica, I'm pretty sure you have, but Stephen, have you ever played Job

00:12:19 ◼   ► Simulator?

00:12:20 ◼   ► I have never played Job Simulator.

00:12:21 ◼   ► Oh, you're going to have a great time.

00:12:23 ◼   ► I was just thinking, didn't we play it when we were at Facebook like six years ago?

00:12:27 ◼   ► No, I don't, I don't remember.

00:12:29 ◼   ► I don't remember.

00:12:31 ◼   ► I think that was just a demo.

00:12:32 ◼   ► Oh, I've played it.

00:12:34 ◼   ► Mike, I played it.

00:12:35 ◼   ► Remember when you and I visited that maker space north of Memphis when you were here

00:12:39 ◼   ► one time?

00:12:40 ◼   ► We played it there, I think.

00:12:41 ◼   ► Okay.

00:12:42 ◼   ► Because I mean, I've played this so many times.

00:12:45 ◼   ► I've definitely played it.

00:12:46 ◼   ► VR on Quest, like, but yeah, I will try again here because I'm excited to see how it's

00:12:52 ◼   ► going to work.

00:12:53 ◼   ► I mean, and it will be using hand tracking because you're essentially just manipulating

00:12:57 ◼   ► things with hands.

00:12:58 ◼   ► But yeah, I'm really excited for this, for whenever this appears.

00:13:02 ◼   ► Like basically it was spotted by UploadVR on the Unity website where they are talking

00:13:09 ◼   ► about something happening in a couple of weeks where there's like a presentation from Alchemy

00:13:13 ◼   ► Studios talking about how they are bringing their games to Apple Vision Pro and how they've

00:13:19 ◼   ► done that as part of like using Unity's toolkit.

00:13:22 ◼   ► So don't know when it's coming, but I'm excited that it is because these are the types

00:13:27 ◼   ► of game experiences that should exist and could exist.

00:13:30 ◼   ► And I want to see more of them because I think, I think people will really dig it when it

00:13:34 ◼   ► when it does land on Vision Pro.

00:13:37 ◼   ► Nice, I gotta check it out.

00:13:38 ◼   ► If you want something, I guess, kind of like this, Federico urged us to play a little bit

00:13:46 ◼   ► of Black Box, which is a game that I've had but haven't tried.

00:13:50 ◼   ► And I played like 10 minutes before we recorded today.

00:13:52 ◼   ► Yeah, you should try that game.

00:13:55 ◼   ► Yeah, it was, all I'm gonna say is that it made me feel like I felt when I tried the

00:14:04 ◼   ► Vision Pro the first time in June, like I played for like 15 minutes.

00:14:08 ◼   ► And when I took off the headset, I just felt like I was thinking, what did I just experience?

00:14:14 ◼   ► Very wondrous.

00:14:15 ◼   ► It's also one of the games, like games/apps that Apple done a lot of, has done a lot of

00:14:21 ◼   ► promotion of for this reason, I think, because it is quite special, including some stuff

00:14:27 ◼   ► on the developer website talking about it.

00:14:30 ◼   ► Yeah, highly recommended and make sure you have a clear your surroundings is what I'm

00:14:35 ◼   ► going to say when you want to play this game because you're going to need to use your whole

00:14:38 ◼   ► body and move around and use your hands and spin in place, all kinds of things you got

00:14:44 ◼   ► to do.

00:14:44 ◼   ► Really good, really, really good fun.

00:14:46 ◼   ► I'm looking forward to playing more of it, to be honest, because I did like the first

00:14:49 ◼   ► three little mini games and yeah, Black Box on iOS is like a really weird experience,

00:14:56 ◼   ► but a great one.

00:14:57 ◼   ► Mike, how's it going with your American Apple ID situation?

00:15:01 ◼   ► So far, it's fine.

00:15:04 ◼   ► What I don't like about this process is I'm having to try and keep the mental load of

00:15:10 ◼   ► making sure I'm keeping like an eye on the things that I'm buying, right?

00:15:13 ◼   ► Because I've been using, I used a gift card, which I haven't topped up yet, but I think

00:15:17 ◼   ► we're going to have to soon.

00:15:18 ◼   ► But like I'm starting subscriptions for things that I want to try out.

00:15:21 ◼   ► Like I have to remember this, so like I have like a recurring Todoist reminder right now

00:15:28 ◼   ► to like make sure that I'm keeping enough balance on the account and stuff like that.

00:15:32 ◼   ► And I also, the more I download, the more I pay for, the more I download, the more I'm

00:15:38 ◼   ► like, whenever this comes to the UK, I need to do all this again.

00:15:42 ◼   ► But it's going fine.

00:15:44 ◼   ► Like it's going fine because once Vision launches in the UK, I am going to be switching

00:15:51 ◼   ► my account back to my regular account.

00:15:53 ◼   ► Oh yeah.

00:15:54 ◼   ► Yeah, definitely.

00:15:54 ◼   ► Makes sense.

00:15:55 ◼   ► Because like there's stuff that I haven't subscribed to yet.

00:15:58 ◼   ► Like I haven't subscribed to TV+ because I really don't want to do that, but I have

00:16:02 ◼   ► subscribed to Apple Music because I wanted to listen to music.

00:16:07 ◼   ► And so it's like, I tried a few things.

00:16:09 ◼   ► Like I tried YouTube music, like just listening to music on YouTube as a thing to try.

00:16:14 ◼   ► But I found that ultimately quite frustrating as an experience.

00:16:20 ◼   ► So I was like, all right.

00:16:20 ◼   ► And then I also wanted to try out spatial audio.

00:16:23 ◼   ► And so I ended up going back to Apple Music.

00:16:27 ◼   ► So now I have like just like a singular Apple Music trial going on and then it's going

00:16:31 ◼   ► to turn into a paid account for a bit.

00:16:33 ◼   ► So I don't know.

00:16:34 ◼   ► One last bit of follow up.

00:16:37 ◼   ► We want to point people to episode 370 of App Stories where Federico, you and Jon talk

00:16:44 ◼   ► about your Apple Vision Pros worldwide adventure to get to you.

00:16:50 ◼   ► It is an incredible story.

00:16:53 ◼   ► I absolutely love this episode.

00:16:56 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:16:57 ◼   ► Poor Jon.

00:16:57 ◼   ► Yeah, I know, right?

00:16:59 ◼   ► I know, right?

00:17:00 ◼   ► The things that man does for me are just extraordinary.

00:17:04 ◼   ► I feel like I have a sense for how you were during that time.

00:17:08 ◼   ► And I can imagine that was quite stressful for Jon.

00:17:11 ◼   ► I tried to keep calm, I think.

00:17:15 ◼   ► You know, the thing is, though, I think because we're all such close friends, like we can

00:17:19 ◼   ► intuit your feeling, even if you're not expressing it.

00:17:22 ◼   ► Right.

00:17:23 ◼   ► So like, you may not have been expressing because I was feeling it.

00:17:26 ◼   ► I was feeling like stressed about how I thought you were feeling, especially when I didn't

00:17:31 ◼   ► really hear from you for two days, you know?

00:17:33 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:17:33 ◼   ► Yeah, you were trying to disconnect yourself, which I understand what you would do.

00:17:37 ◼   ► But then I have this like, I had this feeling of like, I was worried about you that you

00:17:42 ◼   ► were going to be getting upset, right?

00:17:43 ◼   ► Yep.

00:17:44 ◼   ► By the end, I was getting a little upset.

00:17:48 ◼   ► But I also knew that like, yeah, there was a moment when I thought I'm never going to

00:17:52 ◼   ► get this thing.

00:17:52 ◼   ► Right, exactly.

00:17:54 ◼   ► Now, these are the feelings that I feel like I know you're having, like, like, I can't

00:17:59 ◼   ► forget it.

00:18:00 ◼   ► I'm just gonna go move to a cabin in the woods or whatever.

00:18:03 ◼   ► And these are feelings that I have.

00:18:05 ◼   ► I get like this too, in these kinds of scenarios.

00:18:08 ◼   ► And so I can imagine it was quite stressful for poor OTJ trying to like secure all of

00:18:13 ◼   ► this for you.

00:18:14 ◼   ► And the man got the work done, you know?

00:18:17 ◼   ► Yeah, he did, as always.

00:18:19 ◼   ► So yeah, that was a bit of an adventure.

00:18:20 ◼   ► Lots of paperwork, lots of money spent on taxes and shipping and all that sort of stuff.

00:18:27 ◼   ► But hey, I have a Vision Pro in Italy.

00:18:31 ◼   ► And it's mine and Apple didn't mess up my order like they did for poor James Thompson,

00:18:36 ◼   ► unfortunately.

00:18:37 ◼   ► Yeah, James is having like a whole different scenario, which I'll just give the cliff

00:18:41 ◼   ► notes of, which is he had a friend get a Vision Pro for him.

00:18:45 ◼   ► And they brought it to James.

00:18:49 ◼   ► James has it now.

00:18:51 ◼   ► And what appears to have happened is when they put the package together at the store,

00:18:57 ◼   ► which is a wild thing that they are doing with this, which is kind of like the Apple

00:19:00 ◼   ► Watch, but still it seems like, I don't know, like odd.

00:19:03 ◼   ► Like your order goes to the store and then they get the light seal you need.

00:19:08 ◼   ► And then they pick a Vision Pro and put it in the box.

00:19:11 ◼   ► But actually, when you order it, your Vision Pro has a serial number that is tied to your

00:19:16 ◼   ► account, like to your order account, I should say.

00:19:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:19:20 ◼   ► Well, James didn't get the Vision Pro he ordered.

00:19:23 ◼   ► It was a different storage size and a different serial number.

00:19:26 ◼   ► And he's now trying to resolve that.

00:19:28 ◼   ► Now, of course, this wouldn't be so complicated if James lived in America and bought a store,

00:19:35 ◼   ► right?

00:19:35 ◼   ► Because he could just go back to the store and they could resolve it.

00:19:38 ◼   ► But because of the weird things that we're doing as non-Americans, he's kind of in a

00:19:45 ◼   ► bit of a strange spot right now.

00:19:46 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:19:47 ◼   ► So best of luck to James.

00:19:49 ◼   ► For real, that seems impossible to fix.

00:19:52 ◼   ► Big salutes for James Thompson right now.

00:19:54 ◼   ► F's in chat for James.

00:19:57 ◼   ► All right.

00:20:00 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you in part by our friends over at Fitbod.

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00:22:37 ◼   ► Our thanks to Fitbod for their support of this show and Relay FM.

00:22:44 ◼   ► I have a new segment though. I need help naming.

00:22:47 ◼   ► Okay.

00:22:48 ◼   ► We have a couple of iPhone cases and accessories to talk about. They're both made out of leather.

00:22:54 ◼   ► Okay.

00:22:55 ◼   ► I was thinking leather daddies but that sounds weird.

00:22:59 ◼   ► We could do that.

00:22:59 ◼   ► I mean we may attract an audience that is going to be unhappy with the content that they're receiving.

00:23:05 ◼   ► Could be.

00:23:06 ◼   ► But we can do that if you want to. I would prefer to just refer to this as like iPhone

00:23:12 ◼   ► cases you know or something like that.

00:23:14 ◼   ► Yeah but you gotta use the numbers you know.

00:23:16 ◼   ► The numbers of a chapter?

00:23:19 ◼   ► Well it also depends on how many times I write leather daddy in the show description.

00:23:24 ◼   ► That's a really good point. That is a really really good point.

00:23:27 ◼   ► Should we just start SEO-ing the show descriptions now?

00:23:30 ◼   ► Yeah. Just gonna stuff the keywords.

00:23:32 ◼   ► Two iPhone cases that we wanted to talk about this week. One is a Kickstarter and the other is from

00:23:40 ◼   ► Nomad Goods. The one on Kickstarter is called The Open Case. I wrote about it.

00:23:47 ◼   ► Our friend Matt Pansarino wrote about it on his new site The Obsessor.

00:23:50 ◼   ► Which if you have not subscribed to like what are you doing? Go subscribe to it. It's awesome.

00:23:54 ◼   ► This case is designed for those of us who have found ourselves in the iPhone

00:24:00 ◼   ► case plus wallet lifestyle. Which I used to not be in that

00:24:04 ◼   ► camp but I have now in that camp of as of the last couple years.

00:24:08 ◼   ► And it's a leather iPhone case with the back cut out of it.

00:24:12 ◼   ► And so the wallet attaches to your phone and it's kind of nestled in the back of the case.

00:24:17 ◼   ► So it doesn't come off as easily and it makes it all thinner.

00:24:21 ◼   ► It's super clever. I have a prototype that John, the guy from the Kickstarter,

00:24:26 ◼   ► sent me and even the prototype is really nice. And it's it's a good idea.

00:24:34 ◼   ► I can't believe no one. I have never come across this before. Maybe other people have done it.

00:24:38 ◼   ► But it's super smart.

00:24:39 ◼   ► Yeah I have one too. John sent one to me too. Like I'm not a case person anymore.

00:24:45 ◼   ► But this is the most interesting case that I've seen in a long time.

00:24:49 ◼   ► Because what I like about it. So you know it is a very strange case to look at.

00:24:54 ◼   ► Because it is a case with a big square cut out. Like a big rectangle.

00:24:59 ◼   ► And like that's really good for if you use the wallet. But I'm not necessarily a wallet person.

00:25:05 ◼   ► But what I like about this is it's a whole system of stuff.

00:25:08 ◼   ► So I have a wallet. An open case wallet.

00:25:12 ◼   ► John's also making his own wallet as well as working with Apple's wallet.

00:25:16 ◼   ► It's a very similar wallet. But there's also like a popsocket version.

00:25:21 ◼   ► Or you can take it out and like he's also making a bunch of other stuff too.

00:25:27 ◼   ► Like a case charger and things like that.

00:25:29 ◼   ► And because it's MagSafe it will work whether you have one of the little spaces on it or not.

00:25:35 ◼   ► I just think it's a very clever way of looking at what MagSafe can do.

00:25:40 ◼   ► And then finding different products for it.

00:25:42 ◼   ► Because I know personally I wouldn't want to use a wallet with how I use my phone.

00:25:47 ◼   ► Like the idea of the wallet potentially getting detached.

00:25:51 ◼   ► Like freaks me out when I'm taking it in and out of my pocket.

00:25:54 ◼   ► But this would stop that from happening.

00:25:56 ◼   ► And I can see that is where like the idea for this product comes from.

00:26:00 ◼   ► But what I actually really appreciate with what John has done is then to take this and expand it.

00:26:04 ◼   ► And like there are different options available.

00:26:07 ◼   ► Yeah John sent it to me and Stephen without any requests of talking about it.

00:26:13 ◼   ► He just wanted my feedback.

00:26:15 ◼   ► But I actually do think this is something that connected listeners might be keen on checking out.

00:26:19 ◼   ► So I wanted to mention it on the show.

00:26:21 ◼   ► The case is also really well made and it has actual buttons for everything.

00:26:25 ◼   ► There's not just cut out.

00:26:26 ◼   ► So I also really like that about it.

00:26:28 ◼   ► It's the way to go.

00:26:29 ◼   ► I really like the modularity approach here.

00:26:32 ◼   ► Like you have different options.

00:26:34 ◼   ► I think it's really well done.

00:26:34 ◼   ► It's a cool idea.

00:26:35 ◼   ► Yeah I don't.

00:26:36 ◼   ► Well also I don't use.

00:26:38 ◼   ► I still don't have a case on my phone mic.

00:26:41 ◼   ► It's still a no case lifestyle for me.

00:26:44 ◼   ► And I think I don't want to go back at this point.

00:26:48 ◼   ► But yeah cool project.

00:26:51 ◼   ► And I will say as well like without any of the.

00:26:56 ◼   ► Like you say you have the wallet.

00:26:57 ◼   ► You take the wallet out.

00:26:57 ◼   ► You should have the big square.

00:26:59 ◼   ► It actually makes a large iPhone really comfortable to hold.

00:27:02 ◼   ► Because you have something inherently to rest your finger on.

00:27:04 ◼   ► Like which is the edge of the cut out.

00:27:07 ◼   ► And with this case on like it works with all of the chargers that I use.

00:27:12 ◼   ► Like the cube one that I use.

00:27:16 ◼   ► Like it fits with that.

00:27:17 ◼   ► Like it is a very clever product.

00:27:19 ◼   ► I mean of course this is like any of those things right.

00:27:21 ◼   ► Where we spoke about this like the peak design and stuff like that.

00:27:25 ◼   ► Like if you decide to go all in on this.

00:27:27 ◼   ► If you were a person that upgrades your phone every year.

00:27:29 ◼   ► Like you're going to have to wait for the case to come every year.

00:27:31 ◼   ► Which I do think like is an inherent issue with these systems.

00:27:35 ◼   ► Like we spoke about the peak design one.

00:27:38 ◼   ► That I think you both are getting into at one point.

00:27:41 ◼   ► And I know that you had like the Pitaka one too Federico.

00:27:44 ◼   ► Pitaka yes I used to love Pitaka yes.

00:27:47 ◼   ► Yeah and so you kind of get yourself in that situation if you are an every year iPhone person.

00:27:52 ◼   ► But not everybody is.

00:27:53 ◼   ► I expect the majority.

00:27:55 ◼   ► No I expect a larger portion of our audiences than the general audience.

00:27:59 ◼   ► So like that's just always something to consider with stuff like this.

00:28:02 ◼   ► And it's more about being an early iPhone person.

00:28:05 ◼   ► You know if you if you wait till the spring you have more options.

00:28:09 ◼   ► And that's where the Nomad product comes in.

00:28:11 ◼   ► So this actually came up in the Relay Discord for members.

00:28:14 ◼   ► This is the Nomad magnetic leather back.

00:28:17 ◼   ► And it reminds me of 12 South.

00:28:20 ◼   ► I think it was 12 South.

00:28:21 ◼   ► That sounded like this a long long time ago.

00:28:24 ◼   ► I had it on my 4s or 5 or something.

00:28:27 ◼   ► This is not a case.

00:28:30 ◼   ► It's just a back piece.

00:28:32 ◼   ► And Nomads connects with MagSafe.

00:28:35 ◼   ► But then it also has three little micro suction pads that help it stick.

00:28:40 ◼   ► And so the back of your phone is leather and grippy.

00:28:44 ◼   ► But you don't have a case around the sides.

00:28:47 ◼   ► And so I've actually been using this the last couple of days.

00:28:50 ◼   ► I ordered one when it was announced.

00:28:52 ◼   ► And it's pretty awesome.

00:28:55 ◼   ► It's it's kind of the best of both worlds.

00:28:58 ◼   ► I like the caseless feel.

00:29:01 ◼   ► But I really don't like sitting my naked phone down like on the counter.

00:29:04 ◼   ► Like I kind of like having something between it.

00:29:07 ◼   ► And this is that.

00:29:10 ◼   ► So why though, why don't you like to do that?

00:29:14 ◼   ► So we can just all be honest here.

00:29:16 ◼   ► It's Friday.

00:29:16 ◼   ► We're all with friends.

00:29:18 ◼   ► Everyone's honest on Friday.

00:29:21 ◼   ► Everyone has a waterproof Bluetooth speaker in their shower, right?

00:29:26 ◼   ► No.

00:29:27 ◼   ► Listen to podcasts, listen to music.

00:29:28 ◼   ► No, I don't.

00:29:30 ◼   ► Okay.

00:29:30 ◼   ► I don't.

00:29:31 ◼   ► Well, I do.

00:29:32 ◼   ► I used to.

00:29:32 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:29:33 ◼   ► Yeah, I do.

00:29:35 ◼   ► And I'll start a podcast and then I'll sit my phone on like the edge of the sink, like

00:29:42 ◼   ► the countertop, like around the sink.

00:29:44 ◼   ► But I don't like my like then if my phone rings or like an alarm goes off, it's like

00:29:50 ◼   ► moving around on there.

00:29:51 ◼   ► I don't want to fall into the sink or fall off the counter.

00:29:53 ◼   ► And the case gives it just a little bit of grip so it stays put.

00:29:57 ◼   ► But there's somewhere else to put it in the bathroom.

00:29:59 ◼   ► Like it doesn't have if that's your only reason, just put it somewhere else.

00:30:03 ◼   ► This is like a shelf.

00:30:03 ◼   ► There's like not a lot of good options in my bathroom.

00:30:05 ◼   ► Put it on the floor.

00:30:06 ◼   ► That's a terrible idea.

00:30:08 ◼   ► Why?

00:30:09 ◼   ► I had this happen to me and I did what Mike just said.

00:30:13 ◼   ► I was listening to an episode of Cortex and I was cutting vegetables.

00:30:17 ◼   ► I was cooking and the iPhone was in portrait mode, sort of sitting like vertically.

00:30:21 ◼   ► And typically the case would provide some grip for the phone.

00:30:25 ◼   ► But without a case, at some point, I believe on Cortex, Mike just had a very loud laugh.

00:30:31 ◼   ► And the phone moved and it sort of just like crashed on the countertop.

00:30:37 ◼   ► That's the power of my laughter.

00:30:41 ◼   ► That's the power of your laughter.

00:30:42 ◼   ► I was worried for five seconds.

00:30:44 ◼   ► Then I checked.

00:30:45 ◼   ► Everything was fine.

00:30:45 ◼   ► I realized, well, now that I'm not using the case, I'm just going to place it down without

00:30:50 ◼   ► having it sit upright on the countertop.

00:30:53 ◼   ► I'm just going to place it somewhere else and continue listening like that.

00:30:57 ◼   ► And it was fine.

00:30:57 ◼   ► So anyways.

00:31:00 ◼   ► Just put the phone on the floor.

00:31:01 ◼   ► Yeah, don't put it on the floor.

00:31:02 ◼   ► This is an interesting product to me, this leather back.

00:31:05 ◼   ► Because I'm not sure that I get it.

00:31:08 ◼   ► Does it really feel like you don't have a case on?

00:31:12 ◼   ► Yeah, because the rails are completely exposed.

00:31:15 ◼   ► It's just a hair thicker on the back.

00:31:17 ◼   ► The other nice thing about it is...

00:31:20 ◼   ► Does it provide any protection realistically?

00:31:23 ◼   ► If you drop this...

00:31:24 ◼   ► Only if you dropped it straight on its back.

00:31:27 ◼   ► Because the rails are exposed.

00:31:29 ◼   ► So if it landed on the rails, it would mess them up.

00:31:32 ◼   ► So it's not a really protection thing.

00:31:34 ◼   ► I think it's more of a grip thing.

00:31:36 ◼   ► But the other thing that it does is it makes the MagSafe connection stronger.

00:31:41 ◼   ► Like the Apple MagSafe wallet and just the naked phone is actually not that strong of

00:31:46 ◼   ► a connection.

00:31:46 ◼   ► And because you have an extra small ring of magnets in there, the force, the magnetic,

00:31:55 ◼   ► you know, that feels better.

00:31:57 ◼   ► So I'm digging it.

00:31:59 ◼   ► I like it.

00:31:59 ◼   ► I like both of these options.

00:32:00 ◼   ► I think they're both really interesting.

00:32:01 ◼   ► You should try them at the same time.

00:32:03 ◼   ► See what happens.

00:32:06 ◼   ► Your dog heard you like cases.

00:32:08 ◼   ► I cut a hole in your case and then put leather over the top of it.

00:32:13 ◼   ► Why is this topic called kitchen pod?

00:32:18 ◼   ► What's a kitchen pod?

00:32:20 ◼   ► Because it's a home pod with a screen you put in your kitchen.

00:32:24 ◼   ► Oh, okay.

00:32:25 ◼   ► Okay.

00:32:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:32:28 ◼   ► So this is just an update on some rumors.

00:32:32 ◼   ► Last last year, nine to five Mac had reported that Apple has been running TV OS on a modified

00:32:38 ◼   ► home pod and a modified iPad mini.

00:32:42 ◼   ► I guess because there was no other OS available for an iPad.

00:32:46 ◼   ► I don't know what else it would use to see how a new home pod with a built in display

00:32:51 ◼   ► would work.

00:32:52 ◼   ► And there is now a device called Z314 that shows up in the Iowa TV OS 17.4 beta three.

00:33:00 ◼   ► Mike, this is really your topic.

00:33:01 ◼   ► You're the TV OS guy.

00:33:03 ◼   ► Yeah, but you put it in.

00:33:03 ◼   ► Because I find it super interesting because we've talked about the usefulness.

00:33:08 ◼   ► We've established this.

00:33:09 ◼   ► I've retired as TV OS guy.

00:33:12 ◼   ► Yeah, he was fired.

00:33:13 ◼   ► The job was ripped from me and the title bestowed upon somebody else.

00:33:19 ◼   ► Just one of the many tech layoffs.

00:33:22 ◼   ► In the past.

00:33:22 ◼   ► Oh my God.

00:33:23 ◼   ► Wow.

00:33:24 ◼   ► I have been impacted.

00:33:27 ◼   ► Yes.

00:33:28 ◼   ► Laid off.

00:33:28 ◼   ► We have right sized our TV OS department.

00:33:31 ◼   ► What?

00:33:33 ◼   ► What is that?

00:33:34 ◼   ► Right sized?

00:33:35 ◼   ► You haven't heard that corporate speak?

00:33:36 ◼   ► No, I've never heard that before.

00:33:39 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:33:39 ◼   ► You're laying people off because you're trying to have a smaller team.

00:33:43 ◼   ► Right sized.

00:33:43 ◼   ► Is this like the sunset version of downsizing?

00:33:46 ◼   ► Yes.

00:33:47 ◼   ► Because also what's funny to me is downsizing is a corporate speak word.

00:33:50 ◼   ► So you don't have to say layoffs or firing or redundancies.

00:33:55 ◼   ► This is one layer further removed.

00:33:56 ◼   ► Now we've gone again.

00:33:57 ◼   ► So we've got, what did you say?

00:33:59 ◼   ► Right sizing.

00:33:59 ◼   ► Right sizing.

00:34:00 ◼   ► Man, what's the next one?

00:34:02 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:34:03 ◼   ► Perfect sizing.

00:34:04 ◼   ► It's Friday.

00:34:05 ◼   ► Wild sizing.

00:34:05 ◼   ► Synergy.

00:34:06 ◼   ► Good sizing.

00:34:07 ◼   ► So basically there's a few things in beta three, which would seem to suggest that there

00:34:14 ◼   ► is a new device called code name Z314, which is essentially an A15 bionic chip, which is

00:34:21 ◼   ► what it's powered by.

00:34:22 ◼   ► This is stuff that's been digged up from logs, which is essentially it's an iPad mini six,

00:34:27 ◼   ► but it's running TV OS.

00:34:29 ◼   ► Like there's been some changes because it's in TV OS.

00:34:31 ◼   ► I said it can run on that one.

00:34:32 ◼   ► Additionally, there are some Swift UI frameworks that have been added to HomePod firmware.

00:34:37 ◼   ► That's wild.

00:34:38 ◼   ► Which wouldn't make any sense, right?

00:34:39 ◼   ► That would make no sense unless there was something visual.

00:34:43 ◼   ► Similarly, there's a system tool called hang tracer or hang tracer D, which essentially

00:34:50 ◼   ► would, it is to debug unresponsive UI in an app.

00:34:54 ◼   ► These things don't need to exist on the HomePod as it is today.

00:34:59 ◼   ► So this is kind of like putting two and two together would suggest that work is continuing

00:35:06 ◼   ► on what seems to be some weird like amalgamation of an iPad, TV OS, and a HomePod.

00:35:16 ◼   ► But all those things together could make something really interesting.

00:35:21 ◼   ► Yeah, I kind of love the energy here.

00:35:24 ◼   ► Like all these things coming together in one product.

00:35:27 ◼   ► And the more I think about it, the more I realize this is totally something that I want.

00:35:31 ◼   ► And I have just a spot for it in my kitchen.

00:35:34 ◼   ► Therefore, I agree the name KitchenPod was accurate.

00:35:36 ◼   ► Steven, thank you.

00:35:37 ◼   ► If you were responsible for it, it's a good name.

00:35:40 ◼   ► What I actually think is happening here is that we're beginning to see the swallowing

00:35:45 ◼   ► of HomePod into TV OS.

00:35:47 ◼   ► Like I don't think that this product will be running what looks like, that will not

00:35:54 ◼   ► be running what is TV OS, if that makes sense.

00:35:59 ◼   ► Like I don't think that this product will be an Apple TV.

00:36:03 ◼   ► Like I think it will be a HomePod that runs apps and has an interface.

00:36:07 ◼   ► So it will look and kind of act iOS-y.

00:36:10 ◼   ► But I think what's happening is the HomePod is kind of is being swallowed by TV OS.

00:36:17 ◼   ► It's just kind of there's been a link between the two for a while.

00:36:21 ◼   ► But I think that's the ultimate thing that's going to occur here is it will essentially

00:36:26 ◼   ► just be a TV OS, which because TV OS like everything else these days is based on iPad OS.

00:36:33 ◼   ► So yeah, it's interesting.

00:36:35 ◼   ► At first I was like, why would you do TV OS, the iPad operating system?

00:36:40 ◼   ► It's just right there.

00:36:41 ◼   ► But then thinking about the use cases for this and like you want to use it as easily

00:36:48 ◼   ► as possible, like I agree with you, I don't think this is going to be like the TV OS interface

00:36:53 ◼   ► exactly.

00:36:53 ◼   ► But I think an interface like that with bigger touch targets than iPad OS that kind of does

00:37:03 ◼   ► less than iPad OS is actually a good thing for this product.

00:37:07 ◼   ► So I am encouraged by this direction because what do you mean?

00:37:11 ◼   ► You want timers, you want photos, you want media, maybe you want to watch a YouTube video,

00:37:17 ◼   ► right?

00:37:17 ◼   ► You don't need Carrot Weather or Timery or things like that necessarily on your kitchen

00:37:23 ◼   ► pod.

00:37:24 ◼   ► So at first I was really scratching my head.

00:37:26 ◼   ► But the more I think about it, the more I think this is probably the way to go.

00:37:30 ◼   ► And if it helps TV OS, like if this comes out and developers see it as like, oh, I want

00:37:37 ◼   ► my thing there, that's also only good for TV OS itself, I think.

00:37:42 ◼   ► And so I think Apple sees this as a way to kind of bring these things together in a way

00:37:48 ◼   ► that's beneficial for everything.

00:37:51 ◼   ► I find it so ironic, interesting, maybe a mix of the two, that nothing is going on in

00:38:00 ◼   ► iPad OS land and still iPad OS is providing the foundation for all these new platforms.

00:38:06 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:38:06 ◼   ► Almost like in a way, the best thing the iPad ever did was to spawn new platforms that are

00:38:11 ◼   ► not the iPad.

00:38:12 ◼   ► There's something definitely interesting going on there.

00:38:14 ◼   ► Like nothing has really happened in iPad OS for the past year and a half or so, but we

00:38:23 ◼   ► are witnessing the beginning of new platforms, like Vision OS is already here.

00:38:27 ◼   ► This Home OS thing seems very likely at this point.

00:38:30 ◼   ► They are based on iPad OS.

00:38:32 ◼   ► So as a provider for platforms, nice job iPad OS.

00:38:37 ◼   ► As a thing on its own, yeah, you know, not so much.

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00:40:05 ◼   ► So we're obviously going to talk about Vision Pro.

00:40:09 ◼   ► I would like to, I want to talk about Steven's excellent review, but I would like to set

00:40:14 ◼   ► the table here by allowing Federico to talk a little bit about his experiences because

00:40:19 ◼   ► last week he couldn't.

00:40:21 ◼   ► So Federico, what is your week and a half or so been like with the Vision Pro?

00:40:27 ◼   ► I am having the best dive of my life right now in terms of like my job.

00:40:32 ◼   ► It's like I'm living in the future, but it's not a dream.

00:40:37 ◼   ► It's actually here in the sense that, so to give you some practical context, I haven't

00:40:43 ◼   ► used the iPad Pro in two weeks at all.

00:40:46 ◼   ► I am going all in on the Vision Pro.

00:40:49 ◼   ► I just set it up for my work and I'm doing my work in it with Obsidian, working copy,

00:40:56 ◼   ► Safari, my iris, like all the things that I normally do, shortcuts.

00:41:02 ◼   ► I'm using the Vision Pro like I was using the iPad Pro before, but it's more powerful

00:41:08 ◼   ► because I can open more windows, because I can do more things, because it's a better

00:41:13 ◼   ► iPad Pro in every way.

00:41:14 ◼   ► It's also a different type of hardware, sure, like you got to be mindful of the battery,

00:41:18 ◼   ► you got to, you know, take it off every once in a while because otherwise it's bad for

00:41:23 ◼   ► my forehead and my eyes, but for productivity I'm finding so far, because it was based on

00:41:30 ◼   ► iPadOS, I was really able to hit the ground running.

00:41:33 ◼   ► Everything synced with iCloud, it was a familiar environment, all my shortcuts were there,

00:41:38 ◼   ► the apps either were available in VisionOS native mode or in iPad compatibility mode,

00:41:45 ◼   ► and everything was just familiar.

00:41:46 ◼   ► And that for me sort of felt like really going from one platform to another very similar

00:41:52 ◼   ► platform that, however, offered much better multitasking.

00:41:56 ◼   ► And so I am fully, fully on board with the idea of spatial computing, and I'm seeing

00:42:02 ◼   ► the benefits, because like right now I'm at my desk and I got a bunch of windows around

00:42:06 ◼   ► me, and I was never able to do that with an iPad or with the studio display, you know.

00:42:10 ◼   ► I can work in the living room and fill my room with windows in a sense that it's not

00:42:16 ◼   ► like this hypothetical or sort of aspirational thing to do, it's a practical thing.

00:42:20 ◼   ► Like I'm working on the couch with the Vision Pro and 10 windows around me, and we can get

00:42:27 ◼   ► to all the problems with managing windows on VisionOS, but the thing is, it's such a

00:42:31 ◼   ► productivity boost right now to have all that space in an environment that feels like iPadOS,

00:42:40 ◼   ► but taken to its extreme conclusion, it's amazing.

00:42:44 ◼   ► And that's not to mention then the non-work stuff.

00:42:47 ◼   ► So watching movies, watching YouTube, reading articles, I've been using this to...

00:42:53 ◼   ► I've also been using the iPad Mini when I don't want to put on the Vision Pro, but just,

00:43:00 ◼   ► you know, opening good links, which is available in compatibility mode on VisionOS, put it

00:43:07 ◼   ► in portrait and scale it so it's like a giant window on the ceiling when I'm lying in bed

00:43:13 ◼   ► just before bed and read articles like that, it's lovely.

00:43:17 ◼   ► And just this sense of the computer and your workspace are no longer limited or dictated

00:43:27 ◼   ► by your physical environment, but it's all contained within this object that you put

00:43:33 ◼   ► on your face, it's wild.

00:43:36 ◼   ► And I had so many moments over the past week or so where I stopped for a second to appreciate

00:43:46 ◼   ► what was happening and I was like, you know, this is my life now and it's kind of wild.

00:43:53 ◼   ► It's a triumph, like...

00:43:55 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:43:56 ◼   ► They did it, you know?

00:43:59 ◼   ► Like, and it's so not perfect, but I don't... look, I know it's expensive, but if you expected

00:44:08 ◼   ► a perfect experience, like, I'm surprised by that, you know?

00:44:12 ◼   ► And there's an important, I think there's an important clarification that in the discourse

00:44:19 ◼   ► online I haven't seen talked about as much, which is we're seeing a lot of comparisons,

00:44:28 ◼   ► right, between the Vision Pro and the MetaQuest 3, for example.

00:44:31 ◼   ► Say, "No, you can do all these things for the MetaQuest."

00:44:33 ◼   ► I mean, Zuck himself did a review on comparison online.

00:44:38 ◼   ► Mark Zuckerberg, man.

00:44:39 ◼   ► What a year he's had it.

00:44:40 ◼   ► You know what I'm saying?

00:44:41 ◼   ► Like, this guy, like, whoever he brought into his PR team, like, is just crushing.

00:44:50 ◼   ► Like, since Threads.

00:44:51 ◼   ► And also just totally, I'm really...

00:44:53 ◼   ► Look, the guy is in pretty good shape, right?

00:44:55 ◼   ► I mean, I mean...

00:44:56 ◼   ► He's an MMA fighter.

00:44:57 ◼   ► Yeah, he beat up Elon Musk.

00:44:58 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:44:59 ◼   ► So anyway, the point that I was trying to make is maybe the Vision Pro, I mean, obviously

00:45:07 ◼   ► the Vision Pro is much more expensive than the Quest 3.

00:45:09 ◼   ► And maybe the Vision Pro is not as accurate at some things as the MetaQuest, but there's

00:45:14 ◼   ► a strength that the Vision Pro has, which is you have this computer and it launches...

00:45:21 ◼   ► It launched with a version 1.0, lots of rough edges everywhere, but it carries this strength

00:45:31 ◼   ► of the existing ecosystem that Apple has.

00:45:35 ◼   ► The fact that I was able to log in with my iCloud account, go to the App Store, download

00:45:41 ◼   ► all the apps that I was already using on my iPad and on my Mac, and everything just...

00:45:47 ◼   ► And I was good to go for my job in 20 minutes is incredible.

00:45:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:45:53 ◼   ► Like, I feel like so many people, especially, you know, it's been the whole time, but it's

00:45:57 ◼   ► been like very increased over the last few days because of the Zuckerberg thing.

00:46:02 ◼   ► They're like referencing the ecosystem of the Quest, right?

00:46:05 ◼   ► The games and experience that it has, but it feels like it's almost like not paying

00:46:10 ◼   ► attention to the massive ecosystem that Apple has, which is what you're talking about, right?

00:46:15 ◼   ► That like, I don't need to download an app to get my Mac in the space.

00:46:22 ◼   ► Can you even do messaging in a meta quest?

00:46:26 ◼   ► I have no idea, but I bet you can't do iMessage.

00:46:29 ◼   ► And I know that's Apple's saying, but like, you know what I mean?

00:46:31 ◼   ► There are, of course, things that it can do, but there is something about if you're in

00:46:38 ◼   ► this ecosystem, this is the best product for you.

00:46:41 ◼   ► I mean, that's kind of Apple's whole thing, right?

00:46:43 ◼   ► It's what they do, it's what they build, but the discourse is changing again.

00:46:50 ◼   ► And it's frustrating to me, but I don't really think we need to get into too much today.

00:46:54 ◼   ► Yeah, we don't need to get into that.

00:46:55 ◼   ► But yeah, I'm having the best time, yeah.

00:46:57 ◼   ► Yeah, good.

00:46:58 ◼   ► Steven, I really loved your review, did a great job.

00:47:00 ◼   ► It's very good.

00:47:02 ◼   ► I love how, just how much just people have to say, you know?

00:47:06 ◼   ► You and Jason, right?

00:47:09 ◼   ► Just wrote these like massive reviews, like, which is quite rare for the both of you these

00:47:13 ◼   ► days, I suppose, like to write like multi-thousand word things.

00:47:16 ◼   ► And, you know, I understand that me and Jason would talk about it on upgrade.

00:47:19 ◼   ► It's so huge, like, just because it's just so much.

00:47:24 ◼   ► It's like, to review this thing, you have to talk about all of it.

00:47:28 ◼   ► And it's an entire operating system.

00:47:30 ◼   ► It's, as Federico knows, it's difficult to write about an entire operating system in

00:47:35 ◼   ► a concise manner, right?

00:47:36 ◼   ► Like, where do you stop?

00:47:38 ◼   ► Like, how far do you go?

00:47:41 ◼   ► But, you know, I loved about Jason's review, what you mentioned, which is like, he frames

00:47:45 ◼   ► it in this idea of like, let's go back to the beginning of computing.

00:47:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:47:49 ◼   ► But what I really enjoyed about yours was the, you know, I think a metaphor that we all

00:47:54 ◼   ► value quite highly, which is the carousel pitch in Mad Men.

00:48:01 ◼   ► Because that was such a great way of like describing the feeling of looking at media

00:48:08 ◼   ► in this device.

00:48:09 ◼   ► Like, it is a nostalgia machine, kind of unlike anything I've experienced before.

00:48:16 ◼   ► Like, you know, I may have said about this in cortex, but it was true.

00:48:20 ◼   ► Like, I was looking at photos that I'd taken two days earlier, and it felt like I was like,

00:48:26 ◼   ► nostalgic about that experience, which doesn't really make any sense.

00:48:29 ◼   ► But this, it kind of gives you a positive, I think, case of like a sensory overload in

00:48:37 ◼   ► using it at points, but yeah, I just thought it was a really good, a really good way of

00:48:41 ◼   ► kind of trying to explain how this thing feels.

00:48:45 ◼   ► Yeah, thank you.

00:48:46 ◼   ► That was a late addition to the review.

00:48:48 ◼   ► I wrote it over the course of two days.

00:48:50 ◼   ► And the original headline I think I shared with you, Mike, was weight of the future,

00:48:56 ◼   ► like a play on words of the aviator.

00:49:00 ◼   ► And my original ending is actually still in the review.

00:49:05 ◼   ► The line about it carries on its shoulders the weight of the future while being constrained

00:49:12 ◼   ► by the technology at Apple's disposal today.

00:49:14 ◼   ► Like, that was my sort of original through line.

00:49:17 ◼   ► Then the carousel thing came to mind, and it fit so well.

00:49:21 ◼   ► But it is, it is hard to talk about.

00:49:24 ◼   ► You and Jason on Upgraded, you know, y'all talked about this too, but I was 4,000 words

00:49:29 ◼   ► into this and hadn't talked about hardware yet.

00:49:31 ◼   ► And normally I talk about hardware first in these reviews because I'm a hardware person.

00:49:36 ◼   ► Like, I like the tangible physical aspects of computing.

00:49:41 ◼   ► But this platform is so big and there's so many things going on, it's like hard to talk

00:49:49 ◼   ► about all of it.

00:49:49 ◼   ► Like after the first day I was going through what I had written and what was on my outline,

00:49:54 ◼   ► it's like, oh gosh, I have like five other things I haven't even thought about yet that

00:49:58 ◼   ► I've got to talk about here.

00:50:01 ◼   ► But I wanted to get something out to have like a flag in the ground.

00:50:05 ◼   ► Like, this is what this is like in the beginning.

00:50:08 ◼   ► And I actually was thinking a lot about Federico's first iPad Pro review back in 2015.

00:50:17 ◼   ► You know, Federico, you had a review unit, didn't you?

00:50:21 ◼   ► Is that?

00:50:21 ◼   ► I did.

00:50:22 ◼   ► I did.

00:50:22 ◼   ► It was my first iPad.

00:50:24 ◼   ► That's right.

00:50:24 ◼   ► It was the first time.

00:50:26 ◼   ► Yeah, that's where we met in person for the first time.

00:50:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:50:28 ◼   ► Came to London together.

00:50:29 ◼   ► I remember we had to record that episode super early, like on a Sunday morning or something

00:50:33 ◼   ► to have it for embargo or whatever.

00:50:35 ◼   ► But I actually went and revisited that review while writing this one, thinking about like,

00:50:41 ◼   ► what does it mean to like, look at something in the beginning?

00:50:45 ◼   ► And obviously it's going to change, but I want something that captures what I think

00:50:49 ◼   ► right now.

00:50:50 ◼   ► And you know, I think we're all still like sorting through our thoughts and feelings

00:50:55 ◼   ► about this product and even we're now at the end of week two of Vision Pro being out in

00:51:01 ◼   ► the world.

00:51:02 ◼   ► Already, like our understanding of what it's good at and what apps can do and all these

00:51:09 ◼   ► things like that, it's already changed again, right?

00:51:11 ◼   ► There's more and more apps.

00:51:12 ◼   ► We're going to talk about some that we like, I think, here in a minute.

00:51:15 ◼   ► But it is evolving relatively quickly.

00:51:21 ◼   ► And that, I think, is exactly what Apple wants, right?

00:51:24 ◼   ► It plays into the strength of their ecosystem that developers and these services and everything,

00:51:31 ◼   ► you know, just blur the lines between our products.

00:51:34 ◼   ► And so, yeah, so far so good, I think, with the Vision Pro.

00:51:39 ◼   ► Like if we're inside baseballing for a minute, like I'm having some difficulty in like, you

00:51:45 ◼   ► know, you say it's week two.

00:51:46 ◼   ► I've used the Vision Pro for like three hours this week because maybe a little bit more

00:51:52 ◼   ► than that.

00:51:53 ◼   ► But I wasn't at my studio for two days and like I'm leaving it at my studio because it's

00:51:57 ◼   ► too much to take backwards and forwards every day.

00:51:59 ◼   ► Like I don't want to be commuting with this thing.

00:52:03 ◼   ► One, that just feels dangerous.

00:52:05 ◼   ► But like it's also it's heavy and big like in the case.

00:52:09 ◼   ► And I like the case.

00:52:09 ◼   ► I like the protection of it.

00:52:11 ◼   ► I like having it all in a unit, right?

00:52:13 ◼   ► And I can like put it away and put it away.

00:52:15 ◼   ► But like I've made the decision that I think the best place for it to be is at my studio

00:52:19 ◼   ► because when I'm treating this as a computer, that's how I think of the Vision Pro for me

00:52:27 ◼   ► as a more of a productivity machine, like an actual computer machine.

00:52:31 ◼   ► I think that is where I will find the majority of use out of it.

00:52:34 ◼   ► And so if I'm going to use it that way, it is best to be where I'm working, not where

00:52:38 ◼   ► I'm when I'm at home, where like what I'm trying to do more when I'm at home is spend

00:52:43 ◼   ► time with my wife and play video games.

00:52:47 ◼   ► The Vision Pro is not ideal for either of those things right now when I have something

00:52:53 ◼   ► like a Steam Deck.

00:52:53 ◼   ► So like, all right, I'm leaving it here at the studio.

00:52:55 ◼   ► But that means I have to be here, which I am most days.

00:52:59 ◼   ► But like it's just been a funny thing.

00:53:00 ◼   ► We're like, you know, we're into this week and I wasn't here for like two and a half

00:53:04 ◼   ► days, so I barely used it.

00:53:05 ◼   ► But I do think it's the right kind of I think everybody has to work out where they

00:53:11 ◼   ► think this product is going to live in their life.

00:53:13 ◼   ► And I think the work is a funny thing for me.

00:53:16 ◼   ► We mentioned Federico is wearing his now, which is funny because he's sitting in front

00:53:19 ◼   ► of a studio display.

00:53:21 ◼   ► But that's how I've been to like when I'm sitting at my desk and I'm getting my work

00:53:25 ◼   ► done, I'm sitting in front of a studio display, but I want to sit in front of my studio

00:53:30 ◼   ► display because then I can use my nice keyboard because then I can also bring my Mac in.

00:53:33 ◼   ► But I have my Mac in the middle, which is what I'm doing right now.

00:53:36 ◼   ► Then I have like a bunch of windows around the outside and I'm like, I have the Safari

00:53:41 ◼   ► open, so I have everything nice and crisp.

00:53:43 ◼   ► And then I have like, you know, I have messages and Slack and Todoist.

00:53:46 ◼   ► Although, you know, again, I will keep making this complaint, hopefully only until June.

00:53:51 ◼   ► The fact that I have to start everything from scratch every time is really annoying.

00:53:56 ◼   ► Federico, I don't know if you if you've tried this or if you have my experience of this,

00:54:00 ◼   ► like I've tried to set up a shortcut to at least open apps, but then you're like, have

00:54:04 ◼   ► you tried this?

00:54:05 ◼   ► No, I got I got one better for you.

00:54:08 ◼   ► I did this just a few minutes ago.

00:54:12 ◼   ► I got a notification for my RSS reader on Mac OS, and I knew that I wanted to save that

00:54:21 ◼   ► for later.

00:54:22 ◼   ► Right.

00:54:23 ◼   ► And I was like, I'm recording right now.

00:54:25 ◼   ► I want to save this for later so that I can check it out when I'm done.

00:54:28 ◼   ► So I opened the RSS app on the Vision Pro and I have a shortcut to save my links that

00:54:36 ◼   ► I want to link on Mac stories into good links and things at the same time.

00:54:41 ◼   ► I have this little shortcut that saves a link in two apps, so I didn't think about it.

00:54:46 ◼   ► I knew that was going to happen, but I didn't think about it.

00:54:48 ◼   ► I ran the shortcut and everything disappeared because the shortcut, like every single window

00:54:54 ◼   ► that I had in front of me, including my Mac virtual display, disappeared.

00:54:58 ◼   ► Because when you use a shortcut that has the open app action, it just launches the app

00:55:04 ◼   ► and it hides everything else.

00:55:06 ◼   ► So while recording the show, all the windows disappeared and I was left like an idiot staring

00:55:13 ◼   ► at a turned off studio display.

00:55:16 ◼   ► But I could hear you guys because obviously Mac OS was still working.

00:55:19 ◼   ► So I had to manually go to Control Center, disable virtual Mac display and re-enable

00:55:25 ◼   ► it again, and then the window appeared again.

00:55:27 ◼   ► It's such a strange bug.

00:55:29 ◼   ► I hear that it's fixed in Vision OS 1.1 Beta, but I still feel uncomfortable installing

00:55:36 ◼   ► a Beta.

00:55:37 ◼   ► This is not a Beta I would put on my device.

00:55:41 ◼   ► I feel like Betas on this device could be really weird, you know?

00:55:50 ◼   ► Like bugs in this operating system could be not good, right, I think would be my experience.

00:55:57 ◼   ► But if they fix that, that would help me at least because I could have a shortcut that

00:56:03 ◼   ► even if it just opens six apps and stacks them on top of each other, I at least have

00:56:06 ◼   ► all the apps open that I want and then I can Tony Stark move them around.

00:56:10 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:56:10 ◼   ► Like I'm just grabbing things and putting them all over the place.

00:56:13 ◼   ► Because sometimes I'm like, I forget the apps that I want open.

00:56:16 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:56:18 ◼   ► Like we'll talk about some fun apps that we're using later on, but they're for me apps

00:56:22 ◼   ► that I'm only using in Vision OS, so they're not like part of my muscle memory yet.

00:56:28 ◼   ► You know, like I know I need to do this to open, but there's like these fun little utilities

00:56:32 ◼   ► and I kind of forget about them.

00:56:33 ◼   ► And then I'm like sitting there for two hours and I have a thought and I'm like, oh,

00:56:37 ◼   ► I should open this app, you know?

00:56:39 ◼   ► Isn't it funny that the best way to see all your open apps on the Vision Pro right now

00:56:44 ◼   ► is the Force Quit menu?

00:56:46 ◼   ► Yeah, no, I had that not the other day.

00:56:47 ◼   ► I was like, what do I have running?

00:56:48 ◼   ► I still cannot believe they put that in there.

00:56:50 ◼   ► I'm pleased that they did, but it is, of all the things, you know what I mean?

00:56:55 ◼   ► Of all the things to bring to an iPad based operating system, they brought Force Quit.

00:57:03 ◼   ► And it's like, wow, like much respect, but that is an incredible thing.

00:57:08 ◼   ► Look, I do believe that WWDC, when we see Vision OS 2 presumably, there will be some

00:57:18 ◼   ► more window control.

00:57:21 ◼   ► Oh, yeah.

00:57:22 ◼   ► Even if it is just what I want, the bare minimum of app reboot, remember what apps I had open?

00:57:29 ◼   ► Yes.

00:57:29 ◼   ► That's kind of all I really need.

00:57:31 ◼   ► And then my problems are solved for me.

00:57:34 ◼   ► Do you all use that setting on the Mac?

00:57:36 ◼   ► Like reopen Windows at login?

00:57:40 ◼   ► I do, but it's a disaster with Stage Manager.

00:57:43 ◼   ► Oh, I bet it is.

00:57:44 ◼   ► I don't use Stage Manager anymore, so.

00:57:48 ◼   ► It reopens all of the applications, but it doesn't, it puts every single one of them

00:57:56 ◼   ► in an individual stage.

00:57:57 ◼   ► So instead of, you know, great, like you did like half of what I wanted.

00:58:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:58:08 ◼   ► There was a couple of things I liked that I wanted to mention for you.

00:58:13 ◼   ► We've kind of touched on this a little bit in this episode anyway, but I just think it's

00:58:15 ◼   ► kind of fascinating that you reference iPad as being like the actual, like, you know,

00:58:23 ◼   ► Apple's attempt to a post PC era device, right?

00:58:28 ◼   ► Like this is a post PC device and that kind of hasn't really happened maybe in the way

00:58:35 ◼   ► that they wanted, right?

00:58:36 ◼   ► Like there was definitely a timeline where Apple wanted the iPad to replace the Mac.

00:58:40 ◼   ► Like, I feel like we know that they were on that.

00:58:42 ◼   ► They changed course, I think correctly, but that seemed like a place they were going.

00:58:46 ◼   ► And then I had this thought, which you're kind of driving to as well, which is now we're

00:58:52 ◼   ► looking at Vision Pro as potentially this idea of like a spatial computing as a post

00:58:57 ◼   ► PC thing.

00:58:58 ◼   ► If that ends up being the case, the iPad kind of succeeded in a weird roundabout way.

00:59:05 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:59:05 ◼   ► This is based on iPadOS.

00:59:08 ◼   ► There's something to that.

00:59:10 ◼   ► There's a section of the review where I talk about Apple's new OS's and we're going to

00:59:17 ◼   ► put new and air quotes because the iPhone is what, like 17 years old or something now.

00:59:22 ◼   ► They are all based on like iOS, iPadOS, watchOS.

00:59:31 ◼   ► They're all the lineage right from the iPhone, not from the Mac.

00:59:35 ◼   ► And they borrowed different ideas from the Mac, but Apple was never going to put MacOS

00:59:43 ◼   ► frameworks on the Vision Pro, right?

00:59:47 ◼   ► It was always going to be based on some iOS descendant.

00:59:51 ◼   ► And in that regard, we live in a post PC era because the operating systems we use look

01:00:00 ◼   ► like operating systems designed for devices like this, not for the desktop, personal

01:00:07 ◼   ► computer.

01:00:08 ◼   ► And a huge sidebar where I don't want to get into today is like, which one is better?

01:00:14 ◼   ► They're just different, right?

01:00:15 ◼   ► For this conversation, not going there.

01:00:18 ◼   ► But if you look at it that way from a technology standpoint, the iPad is a huge success.

01:00:26 ◼   ► The iPhone, obviously, a huge success, right? That lineage of OS is a huge success.

01:00:30 ◼   ► Now, where it falls down a little bit, I think is around the edges where maybe the form

01:00:37 ◼   ► factor doesn't work for everybody or the people who do need more like.

01:00:41 ◼   ► The Vision Pro is basically an iPad level computer, and that's awesome if you can do

01:00:49 ◼   ► your work on an iPad level computer.

01:00:52 ◼   ► If you can't, then the post PC conversation just makes you frustrated because what you

01:00:58 ◼   ► need is something from before that.

01:01:00 ◼   ► That's where I land, but it doesn't mean these other things don't have value and aren't

01:01:05 ◼   ► really interesting as well.

01:01:06 ◼   ► So, yeah, I love the question, Mike, because in a sense, it's been a huge success.

01:01:10 ◼   ► I had, you know, I'd never thought of it that way, but in like where you took that of like,

01:01:16 ◼   ► we are actually in post PC because nobody today and into the future is going to make

01:01:24 ◼   ► a new consumer device that has an operating system that works like Windows or macOS.

01:01:30 ◼   ► You're exactly right.

01:01:31 ◼   ► There are new devices all the time, right? Like look at in gaming, right?

01:01:36 ◼   ► We have Steam Decks now that they don't run Windows and they don't run something that

01:01:42 ◼   ► looks like Windows. Now, you can get to like a weird subsystem where it does look like

01:01:47 ◼   ► a desktop operating system.

01:01:48 ◼   ► That's not what they necessarily want you to do.

01:01:51 ◼   ► It is like an escape hatch for the tinkerers, right?

01:01:54 ◼   ► But like, this is just where we are now, right?

01:01:56 ◼   ► Like all of these little, all the paradigms that we're used to on a PC, we're not going

01:02:02 ◼   ► to see them in other things now.

01:02:04 ◼   ► Like there are new versions that are created of this, and ultimately, a lot of it comes

01:02:10 ◼   ► down to control, right?

01:02:13 ◼   ► Like companies today, for good reasons and bad reasons, they want control over their

01:02:19 ◼   ► devices and the typical PC idea does not allow for that.

01:02:28 ◼   ► And so there is at least a, if they don't fully control it, they want to create an environment

01:02:34 ◼   ► they have control over.

01:02:35 ◼   ► So like using the Steam Deck again, right?

01:02:37 ◼   ► Like they have the ability for you to use Linux and you can install things on that device

01:02:44 ◼   ► and you can do some weird and wonderful things.

01:02:46 ◼   ► But Steam ideally want you to just use the interface they have created in Steam OS.

01:02:52 ◼   ► Like that, because they control that, they understand that, that's what they support.

01:02:56 ◼   ► And like, that's where we are now.

01:02:58 ◼   ► That is the world that we're in.

01:03:00 ◼   ► And like the idea that like some company is going to come up and be like, oh, hey, we

01:03:05 ◼   ► started again with a Windows mouse, like, what is it called?

01:03:09 ◼   ► WIMP?

01:03:10 ◼   ► Is that it?

01:03:11 ◼   ► Windows something mouse?

01:03:12 ◼   ► Window interface, mouse pointer, something?

01:03:14 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:03:14 ◼   ► Precision?

01:03:15 ◼   ► Who knows?

01:03:16 ◼   ► But like whatever that, that kind of window based operating system that we're used to

01:03:21 ◼   ► on PC and Mac.

01:03:22 ◼   ► Windows icon menu pointer.

01:03:24 ◼   ► There you go.

01:03:26 ◼   ► That's, we're not going to get a new one of those now, right?

01:03:29 ◼   ► Like that, that time is over and we're in the post PC world.

01:03:34 ◼   ► But what we originally thought was post PC, that's not the case because PCs don't exist.

01:03:40 ◼   ► And they're still predominant, but nothing new is coming along.

01:03:44 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:03:44 ◼   ► I think that's spot on.

01:03:46 ◼   ► And I think that the control is an issue.

01:03:49 ◼   ► I think consumer safety and security is obviously a huge issue, right?

01:03:54 ◼   ► It's Apple's whole argument in the EU, whether or not that argument is valid in that specific

01:04:00 ◼   ► case, again, a conversation for another day.

01:04:03 ◼   ► But you can do things in a traditional desktop operating system that you just can't do in

01:04:10 ◼   ► these new style OSs.

01:04:13 ◼   ► And again, that's beneficial to the masses.

01:04:17 ◼   ► There are some of us who that puts limitations on what we can do.

01:04:21 ◼   ► And Apple, to their credit, are keeping both around, right?

01:04:26 ◼   ► The Mac has not gone anywhere, even though the iPhone and iPad have spun off all these

01:04:30 ◼   ► other platforms, right, the KitchenPod OS coming later this year.

01:04:34 ◼   ► The Mac is still there.

01:04:37 ◼   ► And really interestingly, the Mac is an escape hatch for this particular product, which is

01:04:42 ◼   ► fascinating and how Federico is joining us today through that feature.

01:04:46 ◼   ► And so, yeah, so I think that the Vision Pro fits in about at the iPad level, even though

01:04:54 ◼   ► it borrows things from the Mac, including the Mac itself, it actually borrows the whole

01:05:00 ◼   ► Mac in a way through the virtual display thing.

01:05:02 ◼   ► Which I actually think is the best thing that it did for that device, by the way.

01:05:06 ◼   ► Like, just as it's there, this product is infinitely more usable because that's there.

01:05:15 ◼   ► Yeah, because you don't have to stop wearing it when you need to do something that's on

01:05:18 ◼   ► your Mac OS.

01:05:19 ◼   ► You can continue using it and really Mac OS becomes an app on the Vision Pro.

01:05:25 ◼   ► Like, I would not be able to use my Vision Pro the way I'm using it if they did not put

01:05:30 ◼   ► this in.

01:05:31 ◼   ► Exactly, exactly, exactly.

01:05:33 ◼   ► And it justifies the purchase by letting it become, like letting the Mac become part of

01:05:39 ◼   ► the experience instead of something that you need to begrudgingly switch to.

01:05:44 ◼   ► Yep.

01:05:44 ◼   ► And what I'm expecting and hoping to happen and I believe will happen is over time, the

01:05:51 ◼   ► things that I'm doing on the Mac in Vision Pro will decrease, decrease, decrease.

01:05:55 ◼   ► And like, my Mac being the central window is going to change.

01:06:00 ◼   ► But where we are right now, I need it there because like, I need to use Google Docs.

01:06:05 ◼   ► And Google Docs on Safari on Vision OS is terrible because Google treated it like it's

01:06:12 ◼   ► an iPad.

01:06:13 ◼   ► Yeah, which is exactly what I'm doing now.

01:06:15 ◼   ► I'm using Google Docs in Safari and virtual Mac display.

01:06:18 ◼   ► And so, you know, and things like that will start to change over time and then I will

01:06:25 ◼   ► be able to, I won't have to rely on the Mac part of the experience as much.

01:06:29 ◼   ► And so, like, it was, I said it before, I'll say it many more times, like, the fact that

01:06:36 ◼   ► that debate was won in that way was great.

01:06:38 ◼   ► I'm happy.

01:06:39 ◼   ► Are there any other things that we wanted to talk about, like experiences-wise that

01:06:46 ◼   ► we've had?

01:06:46 ◼   ► Couple of things that I want to mention.

01:06:48 ◼   ► First, at the beginning of the show, I said that I was, my sense of depth was feeling

01:06:52 ◼   ► kind of weird because I pushed the virtual display into the wall.

01:06:56 ◼   ► I have since totally gotten used to it.

01:06:59 ◼   ► I think it's quite lovely.

01:07:00 ◼   ► I don't feel weird anymore compared to an hour ago.

01:07:05 ◼   ► And I received today the two keyboard trays that I posted on Mastodon a few days ago.

01:07:16 ◼   ► So, for context, I shared a Mastodon post in which I sort of put out a question to the

01:07:22 ◼   ► world in which I asked, are there any alternatives to the 12 South Magic Bridge accessory that

01:07:29 ◼   ► instead of holding an Apple Magic keyboard and Magic trackpad next to each other horizontally,

01:07:36 ◼   ► are there alternatives that sort of mimic a laptop configuration with the trackpad below

01:07:42 ◼   ► and the keyboard above?

01:07:43 ◼   ► And as it turns out, in Amazon US, there are a couple.

01:07:47 ◼   ► So I got, for science, you know, the one is called the Tionit Plastic Magic Keyboard and

01:07:57 ◼   ► Trackpad Tray.

01:07:58 ◼   ► And another, it's a no-brand acrylic transparent tray.

01:08:03 ◼   ► Both are very similar, and they do work as advertised.

01:08:09 ◼   ► So they have this, it's like an empty shell with two holes, one for the Magic keyboard

01:08:15 ◼   ► that you put above and one for the Magic trackpad that you put below the keyboard.

01:08:19 ◼   ► So it kind of resembles a laptop, but with a giant trackpad.

01:08:23 ◼   ► They work as advertised.

01:08:27 ◼   ► The plastic one, so the white plastic one, the Tionit one, has these little plastic ridges

01:08:34 ◼   ► on the sides of the trackpad, and those protections are in place to make sure that you don't

01:08:42 ◼   ► accidentally touch the trackpad with your wrist and your palm when you're typing with

01:08:47 ◼   ► the keyboard.

01:08:48 ◼   ► That's a common piece of feedback that I got from folks on Mastodon, including a friend

01:08:53 ◼   ► of the show, Dan Seifert, who said, "I tried these accessories before, but I couldn't

01:08:59 ◼   ► get used to them because when you use a desktop Magic trackpad and a Magic keyboard, that

01:09:05 ◼   ► configuration doesn't have the palm rejection features that you typically have in Mac laptops."

01:09:12 ◼   ► And I thought, "Oh no, that sounds like a nightmare.

01:09:14 ◼   ► I will not be able to use this product."

01:09:17 ◼   ► So I did some writing for Mac stories with this accessory today.

01:09:22 ◼   ► I think so far I prefer the transparent one because it's slightly slimmer, doesn't have

01:09:30 ◼   ► the ridges around the trackpad, and even without those protections, it's been fine.

01:09:36 ◼   ► I was able to write a couple of articles for the club in Obsidian while using VisionOS,

01:09:42 ◼   ► and it's a much nicer setup than the 12 South Magic bridge because it's much more natural

01:09:50 ◼   ► to me to have the trackpad below and the keyboard above it.

01:09:54 ◼   ► So if you are in the market for a keyboard and trackpad holder for your Vision Pro, go

01:10:01 ◼   ► check out these two keyboard trays on Amazon.

01:10:03 ◼   ► They are $35 or something.

01:10:06 ◼   ► Obviously, the 12 South Magic bridge is also an excellent accessory, but I realized after

01:10:12 ◼   ► working with the Vision Pro for a couple of days that I preferred the vertical orientation

01:10:18 ◼   ► with the trackpad below instead of next to the keyboard.

01:10:21 ◼   ► So far, I've liked the Magic bridge, but I see where you're coming from.

01:10:26 ◼   ► The Magic bridge is very large because it's all in one line.

01:10:31 ◼   ► And this is much nicer to just put on your lap, and it feels like a laptop without the

01:10:36 ◼   ► screen.

01:10:36 ◼   ► Speaking of which, I want to also point people to that incredible video that I linked on

01:10:41 ◼   ► Mac stories by Luke Miani on YouTube.

01:10:45 ◼   ► So I was familiar with Luke's work before.

01:10:48 ◼   ► They did already a bunch of videos where they showed, like, can you use a headless MacBook?

01:10:53 ◼   ► The idea being, what happens to a MacBook if you detach the screen?

01:11:00 ◼   ► Can you use a Mac that's like a computer that is just a keyboard and trackpad?

01:11:05 ◼   ► You totally can.

01:11:06 ◼   ► And Luke had some videos about this before, but thankfully, they did a video for the Vision

01:11:15 ◼   ► Pro so they were able to detach the screen from an M2 MacBook Air and just use the remaining

01:11:22 ◼   ► computer, again, the keyboard and the trackpad, as an input system for the Vision Pro, which

01:11:28 ◼   ► totally works.

01:11:29 ◼   ► And it's...

01:11:30 ◼   ► Go check out the video because it's wild.

01:11:32 ◼   ► You basically have a computer that is just a keyboard and trackpad.

01:11:37 ◼   ► You can use virtual Mac display mode.

01:11:39 ◼   ► You can use universal control.

01:11:41 ◼   ► And that, to me, feels like the better version of this type of...

01:11:46 ◼   ► It's funny to call it an accessory because, I mean, it's a computer.

01:11:50 ◼   ► It's literally a Mac inside, but it becomes an accessory, right?

01:11:54 ◼   ► And that, to me, feels like the proportions are better.

01:11:57 ◼   ► You have a trackpad that is the right size.

01:12:00 ◼   ► You have Mac OS with palm rejection features.

01:12:03 ◼   ► You have universal control, and you can use a Mac while wearing the Vision Pro.

01:12:09 ◼   ► I am very, very tempted to do this, but I will not because I still want to have a proper

01:12:16 ◼   ► laptop when I don't want to use the Vision Pro.

01:12:18 ◼   ► But I really hope that Apple makes this kind of accessory for the Vision Pro, eventually.

01:12:24 ◼   ► It's fascinating to me how quickly everyone kind of just like, "Yep, you need a keyboard

01:12:31 ◼   ► for this thing."

01:12:31 ◼   ► And I've got the 12 South thing.

01:12:35 ◼   ► I ordered the Clear one after we talked to an iMessage the other day.

01:12:39 ◼   ► It's supposed to get here this weekend, I think.

01:12:41 ◼   ► It is wide, but I was like, "Well, how is it with the keyboard and then just the eye and

01:12:48 ◼   ► hand tracking?"

01:12:48 ◼   ► And I really...

01:12:50 ◼   ► Just my personal feeling so far is I prefer having a trackpad as well.

01:12:55 ◼   ► If I'm just going to sit down and watch a YouTube video in it, no big deal.

01:12:59 ◼   ► Just do it hands and eyes, no problem.

01:13:01 ◼   ► But the other evening, I put it on for a couple of hours.

01:13:05 ◼   ► I was like, "Okay, I'm going to set up..."

01:13:07 ◼   ► I hadn't set up Slack yet.

01:13:08 ◼   ► I hadn't set up some of my communication apps.

01:13:11 ◼   ► I was like, "I'm going to sit down and kind of finish the setup, kind of finish moving

01:13:14 ◼   ► in."

01:13:15 ◼   ► And keyboard and trackpad is still my preferred combo.

01:13:21 ◼   ► But the keyboard at least feels like a pretty necessary accessory for this thing.

01:13:26 ◼   ► The virtual keyboard just isn't.

01:13:28 ◼   ► It's fine for short stuff, but even a lot of messaging, you're going to go to dictation

01:13:34 ◼   ► pretty quickly, I find.

01:13:36 ◼   ► And that's just not feasible in a lot of environments.

01:13:39 ◼   ► I've been having some weird thing going on with dictation where it's not getting some

01:13:47 ◼   ► words accurately.

01:13:49 ◼   ► And I think there's like a thing going on with the language because it's US English,

01:13:54 ◼   ► not British English.

01:13:56 ◼   ► Like I'm finding it's getting some things like just really wrong in a way that is abnormal

01:14:03 ◼   ► for Apple's dictation.

01:14:06 ◼   ► And I think that's the reason.

01:14:07 ◼   ► Yeah, it could be.

01:14:08 ◼   ► Which I just find to be funny.

01:14:11 ◼   ► So that's something I'm going to be keeping my eye on over time, but maybe I can't fully

01:14:15 ◼   ► judge it right now.

01:14:16 ◼   ► My weird thing is that so many times I have this bug where the environments don't work

01:14:24 ◼   ► unless I reboot my Vision Pro.

01:14:26 ◼   ► Now, this is just my theory.

01:14:29 ◼   ► OK, so take it with a huge grain of salt.

01:14:32 ◼   ► But this started happening when I started using the developer strap.

01:14:37 ◼   ► OK, so I'm keeping the developer strap on all the time, even when I'm not plugged in,

01:14:42 ◼   ► because it's got an audio pod, so you can totally use it without a USB cable plugged

01:14:48 ◼   ► in all the time.

01:14:49 ◼   ► But I like using it because when I need to take screenshots for Mac stories, then I can

01:14:54 ◼   ► just plug in a USB cable.

01:14:55 ◼   ► So what started happening, and maybe these two things are not related, but the timing

01:15:01 ◼   ► is definitely not a coincidence.

01:15:02 ◼   ► I open an environment, and I spin the crown to enter the environment, and I'm just left

01:15:12 ◼   ► inside a black void by myself.

01:15:14 ◼   ► Just the environment never comes up.

01:15:17 ◼   ► I have to reboot the Vision Pro, and then the environments start working again.

01:15:22 ◼   ► But before doing the show, I thought, "Well, I'm going to record Connected at Mount Hood."

01:15:27 ◼   ► So I open Mount Hood, I tried to spin the crown, and then I was left in a black hole,

01:15:35 ◼   ► essentially, with windows around me.

01:15:37 ◼   ► Like, it was fully functioning, but just without the environment.

01:15:41 ◼   ► I could hear the sounds.

01:15:42 ◼   ► I could hear the birds chirp in the black void.

01:15:46 ◼   ► And it was a bit weird.

01:15:47 ◼   ► That's terrifying.

01:15:48 ◼   ► So I thought, yeah, it was terrifying, it's like, "Is this what death feels like?"

01:15:53 ◼   ► But so I disabled...

01:15:55 ◼   ► "Hello darkness, my old friend."

01:15:58 ◼   ► It's like where you are.

01:15:59 ◼   ► Federico, I think you really need to test this by changing up the strap, to confirm

01:16:04 ◼   ► if that's what's going on.

01:16:05 ◼   ► Because this is something that's really weird, and I would not want to...

01:16:10 ◼   ► I actually think it's going to...

01:16:10 ◼   ► I think the environments are so key to this device and using it.

01:16:17 ◼   ► I think you need to be able to use them.

01:16:22 ◼   ► Hold on, hold on.

01:16:23 ◼   ► We have real-time feedback from OTJ.

01:16:24 ◼   ► Okay.

01:16:25 ◼   ► "I had the same environment problem you're describing, but before the developer's trap.

01:16:31 ◼   ► It's just related to doing screenshots.

01:16:33 ◼   ► It overloads the device somehow."

01:16:36 ◼   ► Which I also think is an interesting theory.

01:16:39 ◼   ► I've been taking lots of screenshots.

01:16:41 ◼   ► And screenshots are a nightmare if you want good ones.

01:16:43 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:16:45 ◼   ► Don't tell me about it.

01:16:47 ◼   ► Uh, yeah, the VisionOS review is going to be fun.

01:16:50 ◼   ► So yeah, I'll reboot the Vision Pro at some point tonight so that I can be in an environment

01:16:56 ◼   ► again.

01:16:57 ◼   ► Can I ask you a question that if you're not prepared to answer, that's fine?

01:17:01 ◼   ► Sure.

01:17:03 ◼   ► You said VisionOS review.

01:17:04 ◼   ► Is this going to be an annual thing?

01:17:06 ◼   ► Oh yeah, that's what I'm thinking about, right?

01:17:08 ◼   ► So I kind of want to become the VisionOS guy.

01:17:11 ◼   ► Even though I'm already the iOS and Android OS guy when it comes to reviews.

01:17:16 ◼   ► And so I'm trying to understand how am I going to do this?

01:17:19 ◼   ► And the thing I'm thinking about is I like to write about things that I use.

01:17:26 ◼   ► And right now I'm not using the iPad Pro anymore.

01:17:28 ◼   ► So maybe it's...

01:17:30 ◼   ► And obviously the iOS review needs to continue forever.

01:17:34 ◼   ► Where by forever means as long as I want to do it.

01:17:36 ◼   ► And I still want to do it.

01:17:37 ◼   ► So the iOS review needs to continue.

01:17:39 ◼   ► And maybe, and don't take this as...

01:17:41 ◼   ► This is not an announcement, okay?

01:17:43 ◼   ► I'm not making any announcements here.

01:17:45 ◼   ► I'm just saying that maybe a potential solution could be drop the iPadOS review

01:17:49 ◼   ► and start doing iOS and VisionOS.

01:17:51 ◼   ► I mean, it's basically iPadOS anyway.

01:17:53 ◼   ► Maybe that could be a way to do it.

01:17:57 ◼   ► Because I don't feel like I have the bandwidth or just human energy to do three reviews.

01:18:04 ◼   ► Like three OSs in a single year.

01:18:08 ◼   ► So maybe iOS and VisionOS could be two ends of the spectrum that I could live with.

01:18:15 ◼   ► Maybe.

01:18:15 ◼   ► I think this is going to be interesting to see how it plays out realistically.

01:18:22 ◼   ► Because how...

01:18:24 ◼   ► What is the scale size of the updates, right?

01:18:29 ◼   ► Because all right, that might be a good thought.

01:18:32 ◼   ► But what if the VisionOS updates are way bigger than the iPadOS updates are?

01:18:37 ◼   ► Which will probably be true for a while.

01:18:40 ◼   ► This is a new platform.

01:18:41 ◼   ► You are going to be giving yourself more work.

01:18:44 ◼   ► But maybe you're happy to do that, right?

01:18:45 ◼   ► Because this is a cool thing to do.

01:18:48 ◼   ► But I would say it would seem like a pretty fair thing, at least for the next little while,

01:18:54 ◼   ► that you could assume that if what you were trying to do was to maybe garner the most interest

01:19:00 ◼   ► or to be able to do the most interesting work, reviewing VisionOS over iPadOS seems like

01:19:05 ◼   ► probably a pretty safe bet.

01:19:06 ◼   ► But I guess it's something we don't know, right?

01:19:10 ◼   ► What is the interest overall for people?

01:19:13 ◼   ► What are they going to be more interested in in September?

01:19:17 ◼   ► Would it be iPadOS or VisionOS?

01:19:20 ◼   ► I guess you'll have to just wait and see what that's like.

01:19:22 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

01:19:23 ◼   ► We'll see.

01:19:24 ◼   ► I'll keep thinking about it.

01:19:25 ◼   ► I will also see what happens in March with the iPads, right?

01:19:30 ◼   ► That'll be pretty telling.

01:19:31 ◼   ► Because I'm saying now I'm not using the iPad Pro, but maybe the next iPad Pro is going

01:19:34 ◼   ► to be compatible with VisionOS.

01:19:36 ◼   ► Who knows?

01:19:36 ◼   ► Absolutely not.

01:19:38 ◼   ► But I love your thinking.

01:19:40 ◼   ► But even if they release new iPads in March, it's not like they're not going to do anything

01:19:45 ◼   ► with iPadOS in March.

01:19:46 ◼   ► Oh yeah, I'm just saying in the context of iPadOS long term, like what's going on there?

01:19:52 ◼   ► Are you planning a VisionOS review?

01:19:54 ◼   ► I'm working on it.

01:19:56 ◼   ► I'm working on it.

01:19:57 ◼   ► I do have a Vision Pro review.

01:19:59 ◼   ► Well, no, no, no, no, no.

01:20:01 ◼   ► Those are going to be two.

01:20:02 ◼   ► I'm planning a Vision Pro article review/story.

01:20:05 ◼   ► We'll see.

01:20:06 ◼   ► Like hardware using the device and also the OS.

01:20:10 ◼   ► Like I am planning like a professional VisionOS classic teaching style review.

01:20:18 ◼   ► The announcement that I want to share is that I started using DevOnThink to study all kinds

01:20:25 ◼   ► of documentation, design stuff.

01:20:27 ◼   ► Like I am studying VisionOS, all the proper terminology, the developer stuff, and I'm

01:20:35 ◼   ► archiving all the PDFs and web archives from Apple's website, and I'm studying, reading,

01:20:43 ◼   ► highlighting using DevOnThink.

01:20:45 ◼   ► Yeah, that's my little announcement.

01:20:47 ◼   ► Stephen's going to be happy.

01:20:49 ◼   ► Awesome.

01:20:50 ◼   ► I'm excited to see it.

01:20:50 ◼   ► Do you want to talk about some apps before we go today?

01:20:55 ◼   ► Because Federico, I'm sure you've got some stuff, right?

01:20:59 ◼   ► Like I'm sure you have some fun apps that you've been trying out, because I know that

01:21:02 ◼   ► you and Jon are combing the app store.

01:21:05 ◼   ► Because I've decided not to bother doing any of that, because I know that you and Jon will

01:21:12 ◼   ► find anything interesting and just share it with us.

01:21:15 ◼   ► And I got two picks for you.

01:21:16 ◼   ► Let me take care of you.

01:21:17 ◼   ► I got one pick that you already know and one that is new.

01:21:19 ◼   ► So the one you already know, Daypeak.

01:21:22 ◼   ► So this is an excellent, excellent third-party app that sort of is both a digital clock and

01:21:28 ◼   ► a calendar preview tool.

01:21:30 ◼   ► And so you open Daypeak, and it's got a digital time above, and it's got your next calendar

01:21:37 ◼   ► event as a big tile.

01:21:39 ◼   ► And next to it on the right side, you have a list of other upcoming calendar events.

01:21:44 ◼   ► This is just a nice way to keep an eye on the current time, which is very easy to lose

01:21:48 ◼   ► track of while using the Vision Pro, as well as what's coming up in your calendar.

01:21:52 ◼   ► For example, right now, I'm turning to the left, and I can see in Daypeak that there's

01:21:56 ◼   ► connected going on, and while an event is ongoing, it tells you how long until the end of the

01:22:03 ◼   ► event.

01:22:03 ◼   ► So that's also a nice progress bar below.

01:22:06 ◼   ► It's very nicely done, made by an indie developer.

01:22:08 ◼   ► Really cool.

01:22:10 ◼   ► I really like it.

01:22:11 ◼   ► I have a feature request, which I don't know.

01:22:13 ◼   ► This is not the right place for a feature request, but I'm just going to say it anyway.

01:22:16 ◼   ► I would like to be able to choose what calendars it has in the application.

01:22:19 ◼   ► Yes, me too.

01:22:20 ◼   ► Yes, good idea.

01:22:22 ◼   ► The other is a brand new app that Jon just published a review for on Mac Stories.

01:22:29 ◼   ► So this is called Home UI.

01:22:30 ◼   ► This is a spatial HomeKit utility that lets you create virtual buttons for lights, switches,

01:22:40 ◼   ► and what else, outlets, and you can place them around your home.

01:22:46 ◼   ► So for example, right now, I have my desk light strip button virtually floating above my desk,

01:22:52 ◼   ► and I can just look at it and be boom, and I just turned off my light.

01:22:56 ◼   ► And again, that's cute.

01:22:58 ◼   ► That's very cute.

01:22:59 ◼   ► It may be the best example of actual AR that I've come across so far.

01:23:05 ◼   ► That's very fun.

01:23:09 ◼   ► I'm going to have to try this one out.

01:23:11 ◼   ► I like that a lot.

01:23:12 ◼   ► That's a good idea.

01:23:14 ◼   ► There's a lot of fun little bits, like there's all little things that you can feel already

01:23:22 ◼   ► that people are starting to poke holes.

01:23:25 ◼   ► And this is one of them where it's like, "Oh, I could try that."

01:23:32 ◼   ► And these kinds of apps, they feel like the kinds of apps that people work out once they've

01:23:37 ◼   ► gotten it, right?

01:23:38 ◼   ► I don't know if that's the case, but they have that feel to them, right?

01:23:42 ◼   ► Where it's like, "Oh, now I have it."

01:23:43 ◼   ► "I would actually quite like to do this."

01:23:45 ◼   ► And so people see what they can do, and it's like, "Oh, there's this little thing, and

01:23:48 ◼   ► now I can put a switch on my light and turn off my light."

01:23:51 ◼   ► And these are the kind of things that are smart.

01:23:53 ◼   ► It's just a smart little thing, and it's a fun little utility.

01:23:56 ◼   ► Not everything has to be huge and big, but these are the types of apps that need to start

01:24:01 ◼   ► existing for people to build bigger, bolder things, right?

01:24:05 ◼   ► As they're learning where the edges are, what feels good, and what doesn't feel good on

01:24:10 ◼   ► this device.

01:24:11 ◼   ► This is the kind of stuff that it needs.

01:24:13 ◼   ► And I will actually say this is just to very quickly wrap up something that Mark from Australia

01:24:19 ◼   ► wrote in and said, "This is something you were talking about before, but do you have

01:24:24 ◼   ► any sense of what the killer app is going to be?"

01:24:26 ◼   ► And my kind of feeling on that is there will not be a killer app for VisionOS, because

01:24:31 ◼   ► I think the time of killer app is over.

01:24:35 ◼   ► I don't think today with a device like this, there can be one thing that gets people to

01:24:41 ◼   ► buy it.

01:24:42 ◼   ► I think it has to be a collection of things that creates an experience.

01:24:45 ◼   ► You hear all these little bits, "Oh, you can do this, you can do that, you can do this."

01:24:50 ◼   ► And overall, that creates it.

01:24:52 ◼   ► Not if you're just like, "Oh man, X app is so incredible."

01:24:56 ◼   ► I don't think it's enough today to get someone to buy something like this, even when it's

01:25:01 ◼   ► cheaper.

01:25:02 ◼   ► I think it would just be a collection of things, because I think that is ultimately what got

01:25:06 ◼   ► the iPhone successful.

01:25:07 ◼   ► It wasn't really one thing in the end.

01:25:10 ◼   ► It was like the App Store was the killer app for the iPhone, which is not really an app,

01:25:16 ◼   ► but that was what did it, having the App Store.

01:25:19 ◼   ► And then things like, "Oh, the cameras are really good," and the iMessage, and then

01:25:24 ◼   ► you build it out over time.

01:25:25 ◼   ► I think people need to stop asking the killer app question.

01:25:30 ◼   ► I think these days, it's just about what is the overall experience like, and are you interested

01:25:35 ◼   ► in that or not?

01:25:35 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:25:37 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:25:37 ◼   ► Are we good for today anymore?

01:25:40 ◼   ► Ah, that does it.

01:25:41 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:25:42 ◼   ► I need to take this headset off.

01:25:45 ◼   ► I'm starting to feel it.

01:25:46 ◼   ► Probably for the best.

01:25:47 ◼   ► You've been sitting in there for a while.

01:25:49 ◼   ► Yeah, it gets warm.

01:25:50 ◼   ► It gets a little warm.

01:25:51 ◼   ► Hold on, let me take it off, let me take it off.

01:25:53 ◼   ► You can almost feel it.

01:25:54 ◼   ► Ooh, reality.

01:25:55 ◼   ► Oh, wow.

01:25:57 ◼   ► It's pretty so small.

01:25:59 ◼   ► Welcome back to the real world, Federico.

01:26:01 ◼   ► Hello, hello.

01:26:02 ◼   ► We mentioned it already, but there's a ton of great work going on over at MacStories.

01:26:06 ◼   ► Go to macstories.net, and you'll find tons of apps and articles and all that fun stuff

01:26:11 ◼   ► about VisionOS.

01:26:12 ◼   ► You can find Federico on Mastodon.

01:26:15 ◼   ► He is at mastodon.macstories.net, where he's @fittici.

01:26:19 ◼   ► You should go read Steven's review of VisionOS over at 512pixels.net.

01:26:25 ◼   ► And you can also keep up with Steven at eWorld.social as @ismh on Mastodon.

01:26:31 ◼   ► And I am on mike.social, M-Y-K-E.

01:26:33 ◼   ► mike.social is @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.

01:26:35 ◼   ► We're also on Threads.

01:26:37 ◼   ► Federico is @fittici, I am @imike, and Steven is @ismh86, baby.

01:26:42 ◼   ► You know, without the baby.

01:26:43 ◼   ► There's no baby in it.

01:26:44 ◼   ► Although maybe it should be that, you know?

01:26:46 ◼   ► Have you considered that as a new branding exercise for you?

01:26:48 ◼   ► It's my alt, yeah.

01:26:50 ◼   ► Why not?

01:26:51 ◼   ► But like, you know, we're already so deep into it at this point.

01:26:53 ◼   ► @ismh86, baby.

01:26:55 ◼   ► Please don't go there.

01:26:58 ◼   ► Nevertheless, thanks to our sponsors this week, ExpressVPN and FitBud.

01:27:02 ◼   ► Thank you if you're a member of the show.

01:27:04 ◼   ► Go to getconnectedpro.co and you'll get longer ad-free versions each and every week.

01:27:11 ◼   ► Today, we tried to help Steven ask the question, "Why is your iPhone in grayscale?"

01:27:18 ◼   ► Go to getconnectedpro.co.

01:27:21 ◼   ► Until next time, say goodbye, gentlemen.

01:27:23 ◼   ► Arrivederci.

01:27:24 ◼   ► Cheerio.

01:27:26 ◼   ► You said it like a question.

01:27:29 ◼   ► Well, because I was confused about where I'm supposed to...

01:27:32 ◼   ► Because I did the outro today because Steven's throat sore.

01:27:35 ◼   ► And it was weird for me to say it and then it comes right back to me, you know?

01:27:39 ◼   ► That was...

01:27:40 ◼   ► I forgot the order is what happened.

01:27:43 ◼   ► But we can't finish now until you say the things.

01:27:46 ◼   ► You gotta say it, Steven, or we're stuck here forever.

01:27:48 ◼   ► Say the thing.

01:27:48 ◼   ► Bye, y'all.