0:00:00[Music]
0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 513.
0:00:14Today's show is brought to you by Delete.me, Ooni Pizza Ovens, and Wild Grain.
0:00:20My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason!
0:00:24Hi, Mike. We're halfway to 1024.
0:00:26Just passed the 512 mark on our way up to 1024.
0:00:30Off we go. Now I'm back. I was away last week.
0:00:33Thank you very much to Steven and Federico for filling in for me.
0:00:36You know how much joy it gave me that you mentioned multiple times
0:00:39that it took both of them to replace me. So thank you for that present.
0:00:42Two hosts in a trench coat. Yeah, exactly.
0:00:44Well, originally the idea was episode 512. We're going to have Steven fill in for you.
0:00:49He could talk to me about my iPad review.
0:00:52And then I discovered over the weekend that one, Federico had written a very long article
0:00:57about iPad failings, and two, he didn't get one to review in time.
0:01:03So I proceeded under the assumption that, although I thought Federico would be the perfect guest for that episode,
0:01:09because he's got his own stuff and he would be prepping under the same embargo as me and all of that,
0:01:14that there was no point in even trying to get him on podcast. He would be just too busy to do it.
0:01:21But then I discovered over the weekend that that wasn't the case.
0:01:24And so it was so good to be able to get him on for a little bit in there.
0:01:27I was up real early because he's way out there in Italy.
0:01:32And then Steven as well. So yeah, it was fun.
0:01:35Yeah, it was a good time. And I liked that you had both.
0:01:39And I think it was good for the show to have Federico on and to do all of that.
0:01:43Before we begin today, I would like to, before we fully begin today,
0:01:47I would like to invite our listeners to look at their podcast app,
0:01:50because we have refreshed the artwork for Upgrade.
0:01:54So we tasked our designer here at Real AFM, JD Davis, to take the old Upgrade art,
0:02:01the existing Upgrade art, and just give it a fresh coat of paint.
0:02:05We did not want to rebrand the show in any way. We're very happy with it,
0:02:09but we wanted to give it more of a new feel.
0:02:12So we have both for Upgrade and for Upgrade Plus, we now have more consistent branding between the two as well.
0:02:19Upgrade is in, I guess, silver or space grey, and Upgrade Plus is in space black, I guess.
0:02:27Or midnight, or I don't know.
0:02:29Yeah, something like that. And the artwork looks more like an actual button,
0:02:32which is like a power button, because that's what the logo is.
0:02:36And we've got a nice little glow going on too. So they're both new.
0:02:40It's available now for you to look at. And I don't know, it's more of a refresh.
0:02:45I think we both felt this, that Upgrade maybe felt like one of the older, it was one of the older shows on the network.
0:02:53So the logo was untouched for 512 episodes.
0:02:56Correct.
0:02:57Untouched.
0:02:57Absolutely zero had changed, and it was maybe time for a refresh.
0:03:04And so we'd done that, and I'm really happy.
0:03:05Right. But we also didn't want to change it. I mean, we talked about it.
0:03:09We actually are very happy with the idea of the circle with the button and the arrow and the whole thing.
0:03:15And so that was the real challenge in working with JD, is like, JD, change it, but don't change it.
0:03:20And so I just think it looks nicer.
0:03:23And we had a, there was a really subtle pattern on the background.
0:03:27It's like a pinstripe.
0:03:29And it didn't really work. It didn't really resolve.
0:03:31And when it did resolve, sometimes it seemed more like a weird error.
0:03:37So it's like, this is better. It's just cleaner and better and nice.
0:03:39And it makes reference to Apple's various metal non-colors, which is, delights me.
0:03:46Yeah. So it's really good stuff.
0:03:47Thank you, JD, for the amazing work on this one.
0:03:50And I hope that you all enjoy our refreshed artwork as we barrel towards episode 1024.
0:03:59Indeed.
0:04:00We have a Snow Talk question to fully start, officially start this week's episode.
0:04:06It comes from Daniel who says, Jason, I couldn't help but notice you casually dropping an Old Man River reference last week
0:04:13and talking about the iPad Pro, which was Tote That Barge, Lift That Bail.
0:04:17Jason, what is your favorite musical?
0:04:19OK, well, it's not Showboat.
0:04:21And in fact, I was just thinking Tote That Barge, Lift That Bail, and like entered the lexicon.
0:04:26So I wasn't actually intentionally making a reference to Rodgers and Hammerstein.
0:04:30Although I think technically my official answer for what my favorite musical is is The King and I.
0:04:36So Rodgers and Hammerstein, but a different one.
0:04:39It was my mother's favorite musical, my favorite, my mom's favorite movie, maybe.
0:04:44And I have seen it in twice, including once with Jule Brenner when he was sort of returned to the role when I was a kid.
0:04:51We went and saw it, went down to San Francisco to see it.
0:04:54And it's sweet. It's very sad at the end. The King dies.
0:04:57It's very sad.
0:04:57Spoilers.
0:04:59Yeah, I know.
0:05:00Well, you know, spoilers for a musical from the 50s.
0:05:03And are there are there some thematic issues with with The King and I?
0:05:08Yeah. Yeah, there are.
0:05:09But I have a great fondness for it in terms of like a modern I don't know.
0:05:15I mean, Hamilton's the easy answer.
0:05:16I love Hamilton.
0:05:17It's still doing it for me.
0:05:19I still think it's great.
0:05:20But but my classic answer is The King and I.
0:05:24Thank you very much for that answer, Jason.
0:05:27I seem to say Hamilton, to be honest. It's mine too.
0:05:30I know I did a whole episode on Corner in the Sky, Queen Rose's podcast about musicals on the incomparable.
0:05:36I did a whole episode with her about The King and I.
0:05:39So I'll put that in the show notes.
0:05:40That if they want. Yeah, I will find it and put it in the show notes.
0:05:43Sure, I'll find it for you.
0:05:45Even better. Thank you so much.
0:05:47Why doesn't everybody find it and also put it in the show notes if you don't mind.
0:05:51Thank you so much to Daniel for sending in that question.
0:05:54If you would like to send in a snow tall question of your own, we need to do is go to upgradefeedback.com, send one in.
0:06:01Some follow up.
0:06:03So first comes from Scott who says, on the last episode, Jason mentioned that he wished that the keyboard backlight brightness for the Magic Keyboard is an option in Control Center.
0:06:13Well, it is.
0:06:14It is.
0:06:14It turns out the people I was talking to at Apple about it didn't even realize that it was there.
0:06:18Oh, which is funny.
0:06:20But yes, there it is there.
0:06:22You can put it there and then you can swipe down from Control Center.
0:06:24I still think the point remains that you should be able to do it from the keyboard.
0:06:28I also was told that apparently if you are using it and it's off and you are in a dark place, it comes on.
0:06:38I don't know if that's true or not, but I was told that.
0:06:40I have not verified that yet.
0:06:41I find that kind of amazing if that's true.
0:06:43So it may be that I just don't notice.
0:06:46And also it's true that I basically leave it off because I very rarely am using it somewhere where I need the backlighting on.
0:06:52I generally leave keyboard backlighting off.
0:06:55But what I do find valuable is if I'm suddenly, I find myself in a place where I need the keyboard backlighting, I would really like to be able to just use the little, I know the argument there is, well, if you can't see the keys, how can you use them?
0:07:06I know where the keys are, but I would like to see the backlighting on a little keyboard thing.
0:07:10But yes, you can put it, you can add it to Control Center through the Settings app.
0:07:14And then you can, I would also argue probably should just sort of be a secondary control under brightness and not its own little button, but you know, whatever it's there and you can add it to Control Center.
0:07:25Yeah.
0:07:25And we get, we have some chat room feedback instantly that says, yes, it does turn on in the dark.
0:07:30So there's that too.
0:07:32Look at that.
0:07:33I just want to say numerous podcasts over the last few weeks have acted as if there isn't backlighting on the Magic Keyboard on either one, which is funny because it's always been there.
0:07:46It's like, I think I said this last week, it's like a Berenstein Bears kind of thing.
0:07:51It's like a Mandela effect thing where everybody sort of has agreed to pretend that the Magic Keyboard didn't have backlighting, but it's always had backlighting.
0:08:01Obviously the smart keyboard thing that was just the fabric can't have it, but the Magic Keyboards have backlighting.
0:08:08Yeah.
0:08:09It was quite funny actually about the Control Center thing.
0:08:15I was standing at Spadarico at the event and it was one of the first things he did was check for Control Center to see if there was a button there, which was kind of funny to me.
0:08:24It is.
0:08:25I don't know why you don't use a modifier for the lighting brightness controls to have it be the backlighting instead.
0:08:34I don't know.
0:08:34But then again, iPadOS kind of broken when it comes to global modifier keys.
0:08:38Sure, sure, sure, sure.
0:08:39Maybe that's why.
0:08:40It makes sense to me in a way that it could detect.
0:08:44I mean, I'm sure that iPads have brightness sensors like the iPhone does too.
0:08:49It's how you do True Tone.
0:08:51So it makes sense that they have the ability to do that.
0:08:54It's pretty cool.
0:08:54Isn't it nice?
0:08:55They've got that wired up even though I've never really...
0:08:57I got to be honest.
0:08:58I mostly use the Magic Keyboard outside in my backyard writing or any well-lit room in my house during the day when I'm working.
0:09:07I'm very rarely working on the iPad at night in the dark.
0:09:11Like it just doesn't happen that often.
0:09:13I'm not a secret black site iPad writer.
0:09:20I'm not that.
0:09:21So, but it's good to know that it's there.
0:09:23So there you go.
0:09:26All right, next, next piece of follow up comes in.
0:09:29Next follow up.
0:09:29Next follow up comes in from Paul who says, Jason mentions that he prefers to type on the Magic Keyboard on the 13 inch iPad, but he rocked an 11 inch MacBook for many years.
0:09:42Was the keyboard on the MacBook not similar in size?
0:09:45Okay, first off, I do not rock anything.
0:09:48Only Casey Liss rocks things.
0:09:49I just use them.
0:09:50I just wear them.
0:09:51I don't rock.
0:09:53I just want to, I'm just filing as a, as a complaint here.
0:09:55Sorry, Paul, you're the one who has prompted me to do this, but one of those things that I'm against is referring to the utility of anything, utilization of anything as rocking it.
0:10:04And I can tell you from my own personality, I do not rock anything.
0:10:09Literally anything in my life.
0:10:11You rock me like a hurricane, just so you know.
0:10:13Okay.
0:10:14I want you to know that.
0:10:15Great.
0:10:15Here I am.
0:10:16Mhm.
0:10:17Rocking me like a hurricane.
0:10:18I did use an 11 inch MacBook Air for a long time and it's a full-size keyboard and all the keys are the right size is my, is my recollection.
0:10:27And there are, there are shrunk down keys on the 11 inch Magic Keyboard.
0:10:33It's, it's, it's so, okay.
0:10:36I'm just going to say, Jason in the chat room said, this is the most old man thing I've heard Jason say.
0:10:40Honestly, using rock to discuss, to refer to things that you're doing.
0:10:44That's what an old man says.
0:10:46Every time I hear Casey do it, I'm like, Casey, you're way too old to be saying you rocked a hat.
0:10:51Don't do it.
0:10:52Stop it now.
0:10:53Oh, oh man.
0:10:54After the show, I'm going to have one of those moments where I have to text Casey and say, Casey, you got to listen to the follow up on upgrade.
0:10:59Anyway, anyway, you know, he's got a Magic Keyboard, iPad Magic Keyboard.
0:11:03Some of the keys are like half width and it's squished and it doesn't feel right.
0:11:07So it is my, my, what I would say is no.
0:11:11To me, the 11 inch error was the exact width that you could make a computer and still have a regular keyboard.
0:11:18And the size of the 11 inch iPad is too narrow for that, but I don't have them with me.
0:11:25So I can't like, I can't verify this, but that's my recollection is that it's just a little bit too small.
0:11:32And there are some half, the one that bothers, I know John Gruber is driven insane by this is the idea that the left bracket key is full width
0:11:40and the right bracket key is half width because it is imbalanced.
0:11:45And, and he, when I saw him in New York, he said to me at one point, why don't you make them both the same width?
0:11:52It's like, well, cause they don't cause they, you get to the edge.
0:11:56It's like writing on, it's like John Mulaney thing about writing on a, on a big sign and you start like, wait with the letters way too big.
0:12:02And then you get toward the end and you're like, oh no, they get to the last key on the keyboard and they're like, oh no, there's no room left.
0:12:09Well, make it smaller and it's fine.
0:12:12It's a little like that.
0:12:13That's funny.
0:12:15I also wanted to just let our listeners know we have a very small amount of tickets that are still available for our live show in London this coming July to celebrate 10 years of relay FM.
0:12:26I'm going to be there.
0:12:26Jason's going to be there along with many other awesome relay FM hosts.
0:12:30So if you want to come see us online.
0:12:33Casey may be rocking it along with us.
0:12:36He'll be rocking, we'll be rocking together at an actual place where rock music is sometimes played at the Hackney Empire.
0:12:43Uh, so yeah, it's going to be in the 27th of July.
0:12:45There are still some tickets available if you want to come and celebrate and rock it out in style with us in London.
0:12:51Yeah, I'll be, I'll be rocking a coin where I'll, I'll and flipping it.
0:12:55Maybe.
0:12:56Oh, maybe.
0:12:58Probably not.
0:12:59It's time for the B-Tails.
0:13:01Woo hoo.
0:13:04Apple has announced a set of accessibility focused features coming in iOS 18.
0:13:10They have continuing their tradition of announcing these ahead of WWDC on global accessibility awareness day, which is really good because it gives these items a time to shine.
0:13:21We're not going to get potentially overshadowed by other things and we get to talk about them and people get to write about them and stuff like that, which I think is really great.
0:13:28Um, and I wanted to just run through some of these features.
0:13:31I think there's some really cool stuff in here.
0:13:33Uh, the first up is eye tracking for iPad and iPhone, which uses cameras and sensors to track your eyes and you select things by dwelling on them for a moment.
0:13:43So it's called dwell control.
0:13:44So this is a super cool feature.
0:13:46It uses the cameras and the sensors in the devices to be able to track your eyes.
0:13:51We spoke about this a while ago and I wondered if it could, they, Apple could do something like this as a way to somehow control a home pod of a screen.
0:13:59It's like, maybe.
0:14:00But nevertheless, this is a super cool feature.
0:14:03And again, most of these things, I think basically all of them, they're somehow machine learning powered.
0:14:09Yeah.
0:14:09I was going to say this seems to me that it's probably using similar algorithms, if not the same algorithms that they're using in the vision pro and a vision pro, you know, the sensors are right up next to your eyes.
0:14:19They've got really clear view in here.
0:14:20It's a little bit harder, but it does feel like this is kind of, of a kind.
0:14:25And I would also say I'm getting some strong, if you remember the pointer, the iPad pointer started in the accessibility settings and quite rightly, right?
0:14:35Like the accessibility.
0:14:37So here's the thing about accessibility.
0:14:38Accessibility is important because one, everybody probably is going to need some accessibility.
0:14:45If they don't now, they will need it eventually.
0:14:47It's really important to give as many people access in as many different ways to the things that we use to live our lives as possible.
0:14:54And again, I'll just say, if you're fortunate enough to become an old person and use phrases like I rocked it, you will have motion issues or balance issues or other, I mean, you will, because just getting older, you will use it.
0:15:09You'll be, yeah, you'll be rocking the accessibility settings.
0:15:12So it's super important for existing groups, but you will become part of those groups at some point in your life as well.
0:15:19So you should think about that.
0:15:20But also I would say sometimes this is one of those things where Apple's got interactions that it's not convinced or ready for the whole world, but know that they have direct applications for people who have, for example, limited mobility issues.
0:15:33And so they put them in, it's not, what I don't want to say is it's like beta testing it because that's not what it is.
0:15:40It's more like, we don't think that this feature is maybe something that everybody can use right now, but we know some people who could really use it.
0:15:50And so they should have it.
0:15:51But I look at this and I think to myself, wow, yeah, that HomePod with a screen or even just an iPad in your kitchen, being able to do some basic interaction with that with gestures or eye movement without touching it is really interesting for the future.
0:16:09And this is all, I mean, I read, Shelley Brisbane wrote about this at Six Colors too.
0:16:13They briefed her about it, which was great.
0:16:16It is just, I mean, for people with mobility issues to be able to have this extra level of interaction is, it's just really cool.
0:16:26The idea that you're, I mean, it's like magic a little bit, right?
0:16:28Which is sort of how I felt about the Vision Pro.
0:16:30And now here it is in other devices where you're just sort of like willing the device to do what you want.
0:16:35That's great.
0:16:37Yeah.
0:16:37And like we just had the double tap, the Apple Watch double tap, right?
0:16:41Which was, it started as a motion control thing on the Apple Watch.
0:16:46And is now available in the shipping product.
0:16:49It's like a feature that you can assign for different things.
0:16:53Which is a great feature on the Apple Watch, but I do use it every day to start my walking workouts.
0:16:59And it's, you know, I get to a certain point in my walk to and from the studio and my Apple Watch hits me like it always does.
0:17:05And so I just, I don't even need to pull my sleeve down.
0:17:07I just tap my fingers together and it starts my workout.
0:17:10So these things can be very useful even if you don't quote unquote need them for any particular reason.
0:17:17But they, and I think this is actually one of the things that I really like about Apple's approach to accessibility is they sometimes just create features that everyone can take advantage of.
0:17:28Like dynamic type, for example.
0:17:30Dynamic type is really helpful if you have vision issues, but it's also just good for the general comfort of whatever you would prefer.
0:17:38Like for me, I'm able to take use of a dynamic type to have the text size be smaller on my phone.
0:17:45That's what I like.
0:17:47So I get more on the screen.
0:17:48Now I can only do that because dynamic type exists, which is ostensibly an accessibility feature.
0:17:54Well, and it lets, it lets people set, I mean, the broader way to view some of these settings is it lets people set settings for their ability level, for their capability level.
0:18:03So in your case, with your eagle vision, you can just crank that text down and it's fine.
0:18:10And for somebody else, they might like my wife's text is up a notch.
0:18:15Well, I think she's got reading glasses now, so she doesn't do that so much, but her text all went up a notch so that she could see it more clearly without glasses.
0:18:22So, I mean, it's great.
0:18:24I mean, more stuff should be adaptable.
0:18:26Remember when I did that?
0:18:28I think this is not entirely true anymore, but when I did that Tesla road trip back in the day for spring break where I borrowed that guy's Tesla and friend of the show, by the way, not just that guy, but I won't mention his name.
0:18:40Anyway, one of the things that, because Lauren again needs reading glasses that we noticed is there were literally no text size settings in the Tesla UI.
0:18:47I think you can set a large setting now, but like, how did, how did that product exist for, for five or 10 years without like text adjustments?
0:18:56Like we, so we take a lot of things for granted in the Apple world, but the things like accessibility settings and, and dynamic text, dynamic type are super important.
0:19:06So moving on, there is music haptics where the, if you're listening to music in the music app, it will be able to sync to the haptic motor to provide real time vibrations so people can feel the song.
0:19:18This is particularly helpful for people who have hearing issues.
0:19:22I remember there was a girl in my class when I was in primary school and at music class, she would put her hand on the speaker of the, of the keyboard.
0:19:30So she could feel, so she could more better feel in hearing music.
0:19:33And I was found that fascinating.
0:19:34It was like a nine year old.
0:19:35And so they're putting this into the music app.
0:19:38Vocal shortcuts.
0:19:40So this will allow you to set a phrase to trigger a shortcut without needing to use a wake word for your voice assistant.
0:19:47So you can just set a phrase and just say that phrase.
0:19:51And your phone is also always listening to that phrase, like out for that phrase as well as the other things to invoke Siri.
0:19:59So this is a cool feature.
0:20:01This is, this is the first time, right?
0:20:04That I wonder if this is enabled by that feature where they took it down so you didn't need to say, hey anymore.
0:20:09You could just say the name and summon the beast.
0:20:13Yeah.
0:20:13That you know what this will allow you to do.
0:20:16You could, for example, have a wake word to talk to chat GPT or something.
0:20:21Right.
0:20:22You could, you could.
0:20:24You could also have a shortcut trigger on a Hoy or a Hoy telephone if you like.
0:20:29This could be a game changer, right?
0:20:32Like this is, this is one of those things that could really be a huge difference.
0:20:36That the ability to arbitrarily set trigger phrases to do things.
0:20:43That's wild.
0:20:44So I can't wait to see this in action.
0:20:47Just be careful with the phrase that you use.
0:20:50You know what I mean?
0:20:51Just like set your phone up all the time.
0:20:53Cause you set the phrase good morning.
0:20:56Yeah.
0:20:57I wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend it.
0:20:59Wouldn't do that.
0:21:00Uh, listening for atypical speech.
0:21:02So using machine learning to, uh, to features to, for a better performance to understand those as speech issues.
0:21:09So if it's just for a variety, a wide variety of speech issues that to be able to better understand listeners and they use machine on device machine learning models to do that.
0:21:20Whether it's waiting for more time or allowing for somebody to repeat something, that kind of thing, which I think is really cool.
0:21:25Um, this one, uh, I immediately sent to my wife.
0:21:29I imagine a lot of people sent this to somebody in their lives.
0:21:32It's called vehicle motion cues.
0:21:34So many people, many people suffer with motion sickness, especially in cars.
0:21:38My wife is one of these people.
0:21:40She looks at her phone and while she's in a car for too long or on a train or something, it can make her feel unwell.
0:21:46So they do this saying, I don't fully understand how this works, but I'm not a scientist.
0:21:50So I was just trusted.
0:21:52It does.
0:21:52Where when you're looking at your phone, there are these moving dots that will like scroll down the side of the screen and they are synced to sensors in your phone to detect movement, which I'm sure are probably the same sensors that they use to detect car crashes, right?
0:22:06Like it's all that kind of stuff coming together.
0:22:08Like Apple, I'm sure I've done a lot of work of understanding how vehicles move at this point.
0:22:13And so it helps calibrate your body to understanding that there is motion when you're looking at a device to alleviate motion sickness.
0:22:23Incredible.
0:22:24Incredible.
0:22:26And again, it's like if this works, like I don't think this is something you would necessarily historically consider as a quote unquote accessibility feature, right?
0:22:35Yeah.
0:22:36All sorts of things are accessibility, right?
0:22:38Like the whole point of accessibility is some people have an issue that causes them to have problems with some aspect of using the device, right?
0:22:46Fundamentally, that's what it is.
0:22:48And there's no like gatekeeping or there shouldn't be about like, what are the issues?
0:22:53What issues matter and what is...
0:22:55As a colorblind person, I appreciate that there's an accessibility setting for me for my little thing, which is I can use the phone.
0:23:03You know, I can mostly use it just fine.
0:23:05But yes, occasionally some device doesn't differentiate via a method other than colors.
0:23:11And there's a game or something where it says, quick, Jason, this light red and this gray and this light green differentiate between them.
0:23:21And I'm completely unable to do that.
0:23:22So like, they're all...
0:23:24It comes in all shapes and sizes.
0:23:26So really great work.
0:23:27I'm happy that they've put this out again.
0:23:29And I continue to be incredibly impressed by the amount of stuff that they do every year that is new for accessibility.
0:23:38Like, it's not just...
0:23:40There's also enhancements for CarPlay and VisionOS to bring those platforms closer up to par with iOS and everything that it has.
0:23:48But to be able to come up with these five big features along with, again, like at the bottom of the press release, there's another laundry list of smaller things that they've done too.
0:23:58Like, it's very impressive to me that they're able to continue pushing it in this direction.
0:24:02I think it's very, very cool.
0:24:05Yeah, it's awesome.
0:24:06And I love that they give us a preview of essentially the next version of the OS before WWDC as a teaser in order to...
0:24:15I mean, I'm sure there was somebody who made the argument a few years ago inside Apple that was like, you know, these are accessibility features.
0:24:22We're only a few weeks away from WWDC.
0:24:24We know what they're going to be.
0:24:26Why would we not take advantage of it to get another news moment and talk about our accessibility story rather than having it be totally swamped by the conference?
0:24:39And super smart, and I'm glad that person won that argument.
0:24:42This episode is brought to you in part by our friends at Delete.Me.
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0:27:16It is time to saddle up for a Rumour Roundup, Jason Snow.
0:27:21Yee-haw!
0:27:22There's a bunch of stuff today in a variety of little containers.
0:27:26We're going to start by talking about some AI iOS 18 related rumours and news that's been going on over the last couple of weeks.
0:27:34This is all from Mark Gurman in some form.
0:27:38The Sheriff is back reporting that Apple will be using chips of its own making and design for powering their data centres for AI features in iOS 18.
0:27:49Apparently the M2 Ultra will be the first chips used in these data centres.
0:27:54Mark Gurman expects that image and text generation, along with lengthy summaries, may need to be performed on these servers with more simple tasks being done on device.
0:28:03He also references how this is Apple's playbook for this kind of stuff, where they have things on their own data centres at first and then they maybe spread them out a little bit so they have the one different cloud services.
0:28:14I think they use Azure and AWS for some iCloud stuff and he expects that that might be the future.
0:28:19But I was quite surprised to see this, that they will be, one, I guess having their own data centres because we're going to get to some of the other stuff a bit on.
0:28:28This whole thing is getting a bit confusing and a bit muddled.
0:28:33They actually asked Tim Cook about it on the analyst call and I think it was Tim, it might have been Luca Maestri, and they said the standard thing that Apple does will be done here, which is they'll do processing of things on device and they will have some of their own cloud services and they will use other cloud services.
0:28:51I got the sense that it was a pretty straightforward, they use their data centres for some things and then they use partners for other things and it's a mixture that will change over time.
0:29:02They really pitched it as being kind of their standard procedure here, that they do some of this.
0:29:08I do wonder if they realised there was stuff that they weren't happy with doing on somebody else's server or whether there was a secrecy issue, whether they felt like they were better off trying this out on their own and then using other servers for more volume down the road.
0:29:25But it's really interesting that they're trying to use their chips as a way to differentiate, I guess, or to power this in a way that they think maybe is better.
0:29:36We don't know what it is or how it works, but it's a really interesting idea that they might do it.
0:29:42I also wondered if it might be fallback kind of thing where on some of their devices, the power on the device is not strong enough and so that they might offload that into their cloud.
0:29:53You know what? That makes so much more sense to me.
0:29:56The reason I am confused is because of the next two pieces of rumour I have for you.
0:30:06The first part I'll say is Mark Gurman and Julia Love at Bloomberg are reporting that Apple is closing in on a deal with OpenAI to bring ChatGPT features to iOS 18.
0:30:15And then also Mark Gurman has reported on some Siri improvements.
0:30:20Siri will feel more conversational, they're going to have a thing called Proactive Intelligence which will summarise your notifications for you, offer things like news synopses and improvements to Siri suggestions across the operating system.
0:30:33They will also have AI photo editing and in this report Gurman says that Apple will not have a chatbot of their own.
0:30:40It's something they are technically not capable of with where they are right now with their own internal stuff.
0:30:45And they have executives that aren't thrilled with the idea in general of Apple making one of these things which is why the OpenAI partnership could exist.
0:30:52So this is what is puzzling to me of like, well what do they need in the cloud then?
0:30:58And where is ChatGPT or Google Gemini if that deal happens too?
0:31:02Where is that coming in? Where is it not?
0:31:03And you mentioning the idea there of like maybe what Apple provides cloud services wise is stuff they can do on device on new devices but can't do on device on old devices and that's what they take care of, that's their stuff.
0:31:19It's essentially what happens on the Apple Watch with Series 9 versus Series 8 right? The idea that, or Ultra 2 versus Ultra 1 where it does it on device if it can and if it can't it doesn't and it uses the cloud and it just falls back to that.
0:31:33That might be the case.
0:31:35I also wonder, the chatbot thing is so interesting right?
0:31:37Because it's very clear that a lot of people inside Apple are still, have been and are still sceptical about the chatbot thing and then other people are like what are you talking about?
0:31:46Everybody in the industry is excited about this.
0:31:48We can't sleep on it.
0:31:50And so you end up in a situation where they're like well, we'll do it but we're gonna outsource it.
0:31:56But what I wonder is where does the cutoff because Siri needs to have a conversational thing and be able to attach to more data sources and be more, right?
0:32:08Like Siri needs some of that.
0:32:11And if like I'm worried that what Siri is gonna have is something that's more rudimentary than we might wanna expect.
0:32:20That said, I'm not sure I need Siri to do what chat GPT does right?
0:32:25I'm not sure I really want Siri to go down too far down that path.
0:32:30I just want Siri to remember my conversation, understand the context, be more conversational and be more functional and give me the information I want right?
0:32:37Like I mean that's asking a lot.
0:32:39But like GPT, chat GPT has this whole other set of things that you can throw at it.
0:32:44So this is really interesting.
0:32:45I don't know how you architect it so that there's just like a chatbot that eventually gets referenced.
0:32:52I mean I don't know how, is there a chatbot app?
0:32:57Is there a chatbot in the spotlight?
0:32:59- Or like what Siri then?
0:33:01- Right.
0:33:02And what separates Siri?
0:33:03Does Siri say I couldn't find this so I asked chat GPT?
0:33:07- Yeah.
0:33:08- It's very, this is why it's confusing to me right?
0:33:11It's like there's obviously lots of things they can do, lots of things they may do but then there are all these reports which are quite conflicting.
0:33:20It's becoming complicated to be able to follow what the story might end up being.
0:33:28So that is intriguing to me.
0:33:29It is increasing my intrigue but I'm also getting a little bit nervous.
0:33:36- Sure.
0:33:37- Too because they've kind of, I don't really think Apple has the opportunity to whiff this.
0:33:45They really need to impress people I think.
0:33:47- Right.
0:33:48I think though what we may be seeing is Apple rapidly responding to this and so things are not as locked and as clear as they might be for a usual cycle.
0:34:00And that goes to who Mark Gurman talks to where there may be some people don't know what other people are doing because they're trying a bunch of different stuff.
0:34:10This also feels like maybe this summer's beta cycle is gonna be extra beta where they are also trying to figure out how to drop all this stuff in.
0:34:19Some of it sort of not last minute but more last minute than Apple generally does this.
0:34:24And I also, I would expect that some of this is going to be, they're gonna announce big in June and some of this stuff is gonna be October and some of it's gonna be December and some of it's gonna be March.
0:34:37But that they need to figure out and they may be figuring out along the way.
0:34:41Like let's change how this is integrated.
0:34:44I just, to come back to saying more beta than usual.
0:34:48I think a lot of this is gonna be like let's put it in there and see what happens and then tweak it as we go.
0:34:55But I would expect that Apple's AI story, they're gonna make a coherent presumably presentation about it.
0:35:05But I would think over the next few years, it's gonna kind of be all over the place where they're gonna be experimenting with things and changing as they go.
0:35:15And changing their data sources and changing how their data sources are used.
0:35:19And I'm okay with that.
0:35:21I kind of expect that.
0:35:22What they're not gonna do is unveil a finished product.
0:35:25It's gonna be a work in progress.
0:35:26But I hope there's a vision for how this all gets split up.
0:35:29And I really, the thing that bothers me the most about the, there will also be a chat bot window that has ChatGBT in it or Gemini or whatever.
0:35:38Is that's the thing, I'm not convinced that that is the most Apple-y approach to this.
0:35:45It feels like they're punting.
0:35:48Like they're basically like, well, we can't do that.
0:35:51So we're just, you want your chat bot here, here's your chat bot.
0:35:54You can have a chat bot if you want.
0:35:57Because what Apple's good at is integrating that stuff into the whole experience and interface and having features.
0:36:03And it suggests to me that Apple still philosophically believes that AI is a tool to be used by features and not an end unto itself.
0:36:13And they may be wrong about that.
0:36:15They might be wrong about that.
0:36:16And so it's almost like a hedge where they're like, and there's a chat bot if you want it.
0:36:22And they may learn the lesson that people do want that.
0:36:27And I think by, so if it's a hedge, I mean, maybe that's a good thing because they will learn.
0:36:32And we've said this about a bunch of stuff that they've done recently.
0:36:36Like sometimes if you can force Apple to do it, like with the DMA, right?
0:36:41We're going to know if having alternative app stores and sideloading is devastating to Apple's business and the security of its users or not.
0:36:52We're going to learn it now because it's happening.
0:36:55And I feel like this is a little bit like that where chat bots, are they not a thing that people actually want?
0:37:00Are they not a thing that works within Apple's interface?
0:37:03Maybe we'll find out.
0:37:04And that will settle some of those arguments internally, right?
0:37:07Some of those executives that Germin mentions who are like, this is not a thing, this is dumb, we shouldn't do this.
0:37:12Like if their customers want it and they're using it, their arguments fail.
0:37:18And that would be interesting to see too.
0:37:21- Because I know I want to be able to have a conversation with my phone and have it understand what's going on.
0:37:28- Yes, yes.
0:37:29- I don't want to talk to a chat bot, but it's separated from the device, right?
0:37:35- And that's the thing that gives me chills is, is this saying, oh, and there's a chat bot somewhere.
0:37:40Is that setting us up for a Siri that's still not very good, right?
0:37:45Because the chat bot thing, the number one thing that chat bot teaches us is, wow, Siri is bad.
0:37:52This is what I want, right?
0:37:53I want to have a conversation.
0:37:55And so Germin says, Siri will feel more conversational.
0:37:58It's like, okay, but that's what the chat bot is for.
0:38:04So that's what I'm worried is that this is resetting expectations about what Siri is going to do to be like,
0:38:10they slapped on a new coat of paint and it's more conversational, but in the end,
0:38:15all it's really doing is a very limited number of on-device model summary things.
0:38:20And the things we think of as what ChatGPT does, Siri's still not going to be able to do.
0:38:25And boy, that would be frustrating.
0:38:27So I have access to ChatGPT 4.0.
0:38:30Yeah, me too.
0:38:32And I plan around with it.
0:38:34I found it interesting.
0:38:36It was like, I think it's, I think it's very impressive, but I thought to myself, I want to, I want to see this play out in a different way.
0:38:42So we're, we're just, we're on vacation.
0:38:44We're at Disneyland.
0:38:46And one morning I said to Adina, I was like, just talk to this thing, just talk to it.
0:38:50And so she's, she was like, you know, hi, how are you?
0:38:52Having a little conversation.
0:38:54And she's like, can you give me some recommendations for places to eat, rides to go on?
0:38:58And it was honestly incredible to just sit and watch this conversation unfold.
0:39:05And I was like, this is what Siri needs to be as a bare minimum for me of like, you should be able to ask it questions and it give you answers.
0:39:14Where so much of the time, like we just had this where like a couple of days later, Adina asked Siri a question, like she's out loud, asked the question.
0:39:23And it said, I found this on the web for you.
0:39:25And that was it.
0:39:26It's like, that is terrible.
0:39:28That is so right.
0:39:30Yeah.
0:39:30Well, that's, that's, that's what they need to address.
0:39:32Right.
0:39:32And yes, this is like for all of their, oh, we bet the company on AI now.
0:39:37And we pulled all the engineers off the car project and killed them all that.
0:39:40If Siri is still incapable, like it's unacceptable.
0:39:44It's unacceptable.
0:39:45Now, maybe, maybe the GPT is a fallback.
0:39:49Maybe it's going to get fed information from chat GPT or Gemini or whatever.
0:39:54That is fine.
0:39:55But in the end, I do not want Siri to be like, well, I've reached the end of my knowledge.
0:40:01Here is a page you can read on your phone, right?
0:40:04Because that's the worst part about it is it's not, well, I found this thing on the internet that says this, what do you think?
0:40:10And then you answer and you continue the conversation.
0:40:12That's a more chat bot kind of experience.
0:40:14But when, when Siri is just like, yeah, I can't do that.
0:40:17You're going to need to look at your phone now and look at this webpage that I found that is the webpage you already looked at because it isn't helpful.
0:40:24And like that is that, yeah.
0:40:26So I just, I'm with you.
0:40:28I think a lot of this makes sense that I do fundamentally believe that AI is not always a means to an end and that the winners of using, of leveraging AI technology have to make it.
0:40:38Friendlier like put an interface on it.
0:40:40It's like the command line.
0:40:42It's a, it's powerful.
0:40:44But like, if you could do more with it and use the AI stuff behind the scenes to leverage it in other ways, I think that that's really powerful and an opportunity for Apple.
0:40:53But like, you can't get the personal assistant wrong.
0:40:58I mean, you can't and Siri, like, man, can you imagine if they do this and then Siri's just still bad and then there's also a chat bot, but Siri is still kind of bad and broken.
0:41:10Or even they're separated from each other too.
0:41:12You know, we can put this on another, um, uh, phrase it in a different way, which is I think Apple's entire AI effort, no matter what they do, no matter how many new synopses and AI photo editing features they throw into it.
0:41:27If Siri is bad, the rest of it doesn't matter.
0:41:31If Siri is still bad, if Siri is still terrible and there are chat bots out there that are continuing to get all the hype, it will have, it will be perceived and probably will actually be a failure.
0:41:42Like they got to get that right.
0:41:44And the, the Gurman report is scary because it sort of suggests like maybe not.
0:41:50And so we'll see.
0:41:51All right.
0:41:52I guess, but I'm, I'm worried about it too.
0:41:53Because, you know, Siri was the, the first one of these kinds of things.
0:42:00Like this was what it was supposed to be.
0:42:03Yes.
0:42:03Right.
0:42:04Yeah.
0:42:04And it was supposed to evolve, which it never did.
0:42:06Never did.
0:42:07It's better than it used to be, but the world has passed it by.
0:42:10It's never taken a leap bigger than the initial one.
0:42:14Right.
0:42:14Where like it came around, it's like, wow, this is amazing because nothing had done that before.
0:42:21And we forgave a lot of it and it was great at doing what it could do, but it's never since taken a jump.
0:42:27It's like, oh, it's faster now.
0:42:28It can understand you better now, but the answers aren't any more rich really.
0:42:35So I don't know how they, I don't know how they square that.
0:42:38And again, Mark Gurman's challenge is that he is just hearing from individual people throughout
0:42:46Apple and they all have a different experience of this.
0:42:49So it may be that these things are connected in ways that we don't understand, but yeah,
0:42:55I just, I, I, I got the same vibes, which is in the end, it starts with Siri.
0:43:01The whole purpose of Siri's place in the interface is to do what people use chat bot, AI chat bots to do.
0:43:11That is why it's there.
0:43:13And if, if it can't do that, or if the Siri team turns its nose up at the chat bots, or there's a,
0:43:22you know, an executive somewhere who's just like, no, no, no, we can't let the crown jewels of Siri
0:43:27be tainted by GPT or something.
0:43:31It's like, no, man, like Siri's busted.
0:43:35It, it needs, it needs this technology.
0:43:38And like that is, so that's my fear.
0:43:40It's almost more like an organizational fear with an Apple is like, okay, Apple's agreed
0:43:44that they're going to work with open AI and maybe Google on chat bot stuff.
0:43:48Okay, great.
0:43:50But like, what's that implementation like?
0:43:52And does it feel like it's being kind of held at arm's length and it's not actually improving?
0:43:56Like do the people who won the argument to put chat bots in iOS have the clout to say,
0:44:03no, no, really put it in.
0:44:06Or are they going to like sneak it in, but people over and I'm, I don't know that the
0:44:11Siri team feels this way, but just like theoretically the people behind Siri are like,
0:44:16okay, you can put the chat bot in, but it's not touching our stuff.
0:44:19And our stuff is going to be like this and it's not good enough.
0:44:22Like that's a disaster.
0:44:24So that, and that's a level where if stuff like that happens, it has to be high level
0:44:28executive, right?
0:44:28This is, this is what Tim Cook gets paid for, right?
0:44:31The stuff like this, this is what Craig Federighi gets paid for.
0:44:35And, and ediQ, like all the senior management team, this is, this is why they get paid the
0:44:39big bucks is at some point you do have to say, these people win the argument and I know that
0:44:47you don't like it for reasons, but they have to win the argument.
0:44:51And my fear is that we're going to see some hedging and not winning the argument here.
0:44:57And I'm not saying throw Siri out, but I think it's busted and needs to be a new Siri.
0:45:02And if you've got a new Siri, that's not as good as chat GPT, but can leverage something
0:45:06like chat GPT.
0:45:07Great, great.
0:45:08So boy, and, and you know, it's not going to be there in the first developer beta, right?
0:45:14You know, it's not going to be there.
0:45:15Something, something will be there, but it won't be there.
0:45:18So a lot of this is going to hinge on like, what does Apple say?
0:45:21I'm sorry to keep coming back to my classic Jason position of pay attention to the storytelling,
0:45:27but Oh my God, we are going to have to pay close attention to the storytelling here because
0:45:33I suspect the storytelling will tell us more about what Apple's thinking about AI than
0:45:37maybe the initial betas will.
0:45:39So moving on from this, uh, we have some iPhone news.
0:45:44So a couple of things.
0:45:45First, the 16 line, this year's iPhones dummy models of the 16 pro and 16 pro max of sight
0:45:50at appearing online.
0:45:51And if these are to be believed, the iPhones are getting a little bit bigger.
0:45:56The 16 pro will go from 6.1 to 6.3 inches.
0:46:00And the 16 pro max will go from 6.7 to 6.9 inches.
0:46:05So phones, they get a little bigger.
0:46:08And with this increase, Ming-Chi Kuo is reporting that the 16 pro max may also benefit from
0:46:14new battery technology to give a bigger battery life boost to the 16 pro max.
0:46:19Oh, nice.
0:46:21I like that.
0:46:22Well, that's you're a, you're a, a big phone boy.
0:46:25You like, are you, are you sort of like, you know, pro max is fine or, or are you still
0:46:30in the camp of sort of like, I will take as much screen as you will throw at me.
0:46:34I don't know if I want it to get bigger.
0:46:36Interesting.
0:46:39Interesting.
0:46:39I, I feel like the pro max is at the limit that I want.
0:46:48I don't think I want more phone.
0:46:51I would need more reason for bigger phone than just bigger screen now.
0:46:59Now, if it is like bigger battery, I'm like, great.
0:47:02You know, like other features, like we were talking about them a couple of weeks ago,
0:47:05like the other features that they might add.
0:47:07And then I'll be like, okay, like, you know, and maybe this, maybe you remember we were
0:47:11talking about the fact that the 16 pro might get the Tetra prism lens.
0:47:15Maybe they needed to make the phone a little bit bigger to make that work.
0:47:18I don't know.
0:47:19But, um, I'm not sure I want the phone to get bigger.
0:47:24And again, it's just a small amount, but in your pocket, that's a bigger amount, you
0:47:28know, the way it feels.
0:47:29So that was intriguing to me, but maybe I'll only have to worry about it for one year
0:47:35because a report from Jeff Poo at the information details some of Apple's plans for the iPhone
0:47:4117 line in 2026.
0:47:44The biggest piece of news here is that the plus phone is going away.
0:47:51So they, the fourth phone in the lineup has once again failed.
0:47:56It's the curse of the iPhone mini.
0:47:59So Apple is going in a completely new direction and working on something that, that
0:48:05the information that Jeff is calling the iPhone 17 slim, the slim model would sit.
0:48:11It's going to be air.
0:48:11It's going to be air, Mike.
0:48:12It's going to be air.
0:48:13I don't air.
0:48:15It's going to happen.
0:48:16Maybe let's go through this first and I'll say why that doesn't necessarily land with
0:48:22me.
0:48:22All right.
0:48:23So this slim model would sit between the pro and pro max and screen size.
0:48:29Now, interestingly, Jeff's article references the 15 screen sizes, but then there's these
0:48:37new rumors of the 16 making it bigger.
0:48:39So let's just say between for now.
0:48:41Okay.
0:48:42It would be significantly thinner than any other iPhone model and would have a higher
0:48:48price tag than the pro max.
0:48:50That's why the air thing I'm not so sure about because it will be the most expensive
0:48:56iPhone.
0:48:56Right.
0:48:58Because it will be super slim, which could be quite luxurious as an idea.
0:49:05Now, interestingly, this, this gets weirder to me.
0:49:08The 17, the 17 slim and the 17 pro will be made from aluminum of a design that is quote
0:49:16more complex.
0:49:17Whatever that means.
0:49:19And the pro max will retain titanium and that phone will have a narrow dynamic island using
0:49:28a technology called metalens.
0:49:30And this new design in general, so that this new design that all of these phones will have
0:49:37will feature rear cameras centered on the device rather than in the car.
0:49:41Whoa.
0:49:42This is a really weird report.
0:49:47Like there's so many weird things in this.
0:49:51The slim iPhone, middle size wise, more expensive, made from aluminium, which is weird.
0:50:00Like that's weird to me.
0:50:01I'm assuming the 16 pro will be titanium, but I guess if they do have a new design, you
0:50:07could maybe like re-talk about the materials again, but then why does the pro max retain
0:50:13titanium?
0:50:14Maybe that phone is going to be different.
0:50:16Like I guess it's going to look different on the front, so maybe it will have more than
0:50:20that.
0:50:22I am on board with, let's try the fourth phone again though.
0:50:26Like I think that that to me is a good idea because I agree.
0:50:30They're clearly struggling to land that.
0:50:33And I would say that smaller or bigger, but not the nice one.
0:50:39Neither of those are compelling enough stories.
0:50:41I think for a large amount of people, I think significant, like a really thin, beautiful
0:50:48iPhone, maybe that would be a USB of its own.
0:50:52But then it's really weird for it not to have the most features, but it'd be more expensive.
0:50:57It's gonna be a strange lineup.
0:51:00Like that's for sure if this all comes to pass.
0:51:02I like from a marketing standpoint, like a marketplace standpoint, I like the idea.
0:51:08Like we tried the small phone, we tried the big phone in the low end set.
0:51:15Why don't we try an ultra premium phone, a luxury phone that's above the pros?
0:51:21Why don't we go up there?
0:51:22Because I'm sure Apple feels like there are some buyers for whom money is essentially
0:51:29no object and a beautiful iPhone that costs $2,000, but is super luxe and amazing and thin
0:51:37and feels like the future is...
0:51:39There are people who will buy that, right?
0:51:43There are people who will buy that.
0:51:44Maybe that is more...
0:51:46Maybe being in that muddy middle as the fourth phone out of four, that's kind of different,
0:51:53but not really, is a loser.
0:51:56'Cause the pro has a clear selling point and the pro max has a clear selling point.
0:52:03And the base model has a pretty clear selling point.
0:52:06And then the odd one out that's just differentiated by size seems to have not worked either time.
0:52:12So go upscale and shoot for something that's even...
0:52:16That's like...
0:52:17I mean, it feels...
0:52:18Mike, I really get iPhone 10 vibes from this as well.
0:52:21What if we made the future phone and it was really expensive, but we just made it and
0:52:26sold it for a lot of money, but we can do it now?
0:52:28- Really expensive and beautiful.
0:52:29- And beautiful.
0:52:30- We make almost a piece of jewelry and charge you a lot of money for it, which is kind of
0:52:34what the iPhone 10 felt like at that time.
0:52:36- iPhone 10 was like, "Oh my God, this is not like any other phone."
0:52:39It costs what?
0:52:40But it was so different and felt like the future.
0:52:45And I could see them selling an expensive iPhone model that felt like the future, that
0:52:53was not a pro or a pro max.
0:52:55It was a different thing.
0:52:57It was a different size, different thinness, different weight, maybe has some other different
0:53:02technology things on it.
0:53:03I mean, they've got all sorts of market research and stuff, but just as a person on the outside
0:53:09hearing this idea, I can see why this idea might be worth trying because you might find
0:53:16many more available buyers up there.
0:53:19I think that's been one of Apple's lessons, right?
0:53:20Is that Apple has learned to reach people who have smaller budgets for phones with older
0:53:25models and with the SE and they have had success with that.
0:53:29But I mean, I would assume the pro max has taught them that there are some people for
0:53:34whom the price doesn't matter and they just want the biggest best iPhone.
0:53:39I think for Apple as a business, it makes the most sense to have four distinct models.
0:53:45Two of them are very expensive.
0:53:46Like, I just think that it makes sense to them.
0:53:50I mean, they may learn that there is a limit to that or the product might not tick the
0:53:55boxes, but I'm trying to imagine a buyer who does not care so much about the money, but
0:54:03really wants a gorgeous, amazing, talked about phone.
0:54:08And this is, I mean, honestly, Mike, when we talk about Apple's phone sales over time,
0:54:13it's often this kind of phone that spurs sales around the world.
0:54:17Not just China, but China is one place where you could get a great advantage here, but
0:54:23around the world, if there's an appreciably different new looking iPhone and it costs,
0:54:31there are a lot of people who just buy it because they don't care.
0:54:34Like there are a lot of people that it's like, you know, okay, it's $2,000.
0:54:38Whatever.
0:54:39Like they don't care.
0:54:39What they want is, you know, and for those of us who are cheapskates, they're like,
0:54:43"Oh man, I'm gonna..."
0:54:44You know, the fact is, Apple has an audience that contains a lot of people who just want
0:54:48the amazing, coolest, greatest looking Apple product.
0:54:53And so, yeah, I would, if I was at Apple, I would try this for sure, right?
0:54:57Because this may be an untapped market.
0:55:00It's that classic, like, whatever your most expensive product is, there are some people
0:55:04in your audience who would have paid even more.
0:55:07And are there enough of them for you to make a product for them?
0:55:11And something like this sounds like exactly that.
0:55:14And I hope we get four distinct names.
0:55:17So like the Pro Max becomes Ultra and then this gets its own name.
0:55:20And then we have like the iPhone 17, the iPhone 17 Pro, the iPhone 17, we'll call it Slim,
0:55:25and the iPhone 17 Ultra.
0:55:26Especially if they're differentiating the Pro Max with something like titanium and things
0:55:30like that, like it really is a different phone.
0:55:32Yeah, it's a different phone.
0:55:34I mean, it's been that way for a while anyway, and it seems like they're going further in
0:55:37that direction.
0:55:38And I just think as someone who is interested in just talking about these things, four distinct
0:55:43iPhones that fit four different markets feels more intriguing to me than we're going to
0:55:48take the line, split it in half, kind of replicate the two and they're going to have different
0:55:54features.
0:55:54Like the Plus got lost.
0:55:56I forget it exists most of the time.
0:55:58And clearly the mini did not sell what they needed.
0:56:01Otherwise, it'd still make it.
0:56:02So I think this is a very interesting idea.
0:56:06The other way to go would be you have a 17.
0:56:10Again, keep in mind, we're talking about 2025 here, 16 months away.
0:56:1417 Pro, 17 Pro Max, and 17 Ultra.
0:56:21And the new phone is the Ultra.
0:56:22Maybe?
0:56:24Maybe, yeah.
0:56:26I mean, Air, I just think about the thinness and I sell it that, but if it's expensive
0:56:30but and Superlux Ultra.
0:56:32Ultra to me feels like it needs to have all of the features, right?
0:56:36Like all of them and it's not going to.
0:56:38Right.
0:56:39So going to be really intriguing to see if they do this and how they pull it off.
0:56:44And the rest of this, like a center camera and stuff like that.
0:56:47I mean, it's just weird.
0:56:48I don't know.
0:56:50We know that they work in advance and that often these weird rumors from the summer before,
0:56:55like the previous year, do end up being right.
0:57:01But, and sometimes it's the details.
0:57:03Remember, I'll remember iPhone math.
0:57:05Sometimes the details are not quite right.
0:57:08Yeah, I don't think Slim is the name.
0:57:10I really don't think Slim is the name.
0:57:12But it's really interesting to think about.
0:57:15And I think, I mean, look, Apple spent the last, what, five, six, seven years super,
0:57:20I mean, really 10 years since they did the larger phone for the first time.
0:57:24Experimenting with the, with iPhone sales dynamics.
0:57:27It's their most important product.
0:57:28It's more than half of their total company revenue.
0:57:31And they've had some success in differentiating the product line, but clearly there's this
0:57:35one model that has not, they feel like they haven't cracked it.
0:57:39So I think they're absolutely going to continue experimenting here and finding what the market
0:57:43wants.
0:57:44And if they have the capability to make this, I think that's the most interesting thing
0:57:48about this rumor, honestly, is it sounds like it comes out of a question of like, we could
0:57:54make a phone that's appreciably different next generation phone that's thinner, but
0:58:01it'll have some compromises and where does it fit?
0:58:03And we don't really, and it'll be expensive to make.
0:58:05And then out of that emerges, well, why don't we just make that future phone and people
0:58:11will buy it because it's awesome, even though it's super expensive.
0:58:15That's an interesting idea.
0:58:16So the experiments continue.
0:58:18- And finally, Mark Gorman is reporting that the Mac Studio and Mac Pro will not receive
0:58:23an update until mid 2025.
0:58:25All other Macs should be on the M4 generation by the end of 2024.
0:58:30- Based on some of his previous reports, where he said that there was another chip that had
0:58:35not debuted yet in the M3 line, it sounds like they were originally at some point planning
0:58:41to do an M3 Studio and Pro, and then with the move to the M4, they've just decided not
0:58:47to do that.
0:58:47- And they're essentially skipping.
0:58:49- That's fine.
0:58:49- It seems like.
0:58:50- It's fine.
0:58:51- I'll keep waiting. I'm gonna keep waiting.
0:58:54I am not buying a computer until the next Mac Studio becomes available.
0:58:59- Well, right.
0:59:00I have an M1 Macs Mac Studio, right?
0:59:02And I thought about it like, if I was given the opportunity to buy an M3 Macs Mac Studio,
0:59:07knowing what I know about the M4, would I?
0:59:12I wouldn't.
0:59:14- Yeah, probably not.
0:59:16Yeah, probably not.
0:59:16I'll probably keep waiting.
0:59:18- So it's probably all for the best.
0:59:21- Because for me, all I really want it for is just to simplify, like, and not be using
0:59:27a laptop, not be using a Thunderbolt dock anymore.
0:59:30I want all my IO into one machine and then take additional power.
0:59:34What I don't need this computer really to have is more power.
0:59:36Like, I'm using an M1 Pro MacBook Pro.
0:59:39- Sure.
0:59:40- I can happily use this for another year and a half.
0:59:43And actually, I will be happier to do that because I'll get more use out of this computer.
0:59:47- My M1 Macs Mac Mini is great.
0:59:51It's great.
0:59:51It's fine.
0:59:52I can foresee a moment where I'm gonna want a new one and I'm not really there yet.
0:59:58And knowing that the M4 generation has begun, this would not be the time that I would look
1:00:05to leap, right?
1:00:06Because I'm like, well, you know, I don't really need that power right now.
1:00:10And I know the new chip generation is very impressive because we've already started it.
1:00:14So I think, and I think there are a lot of buyers who would be like that, where it's
1:00:16just like, it's just fine.
1:00:17Let's just not even bother putting those products out and we'll wait until hopefully
1:00:22early next year.
1:00:23But for the, and that's the next year, the Mac Pro and the MacBook Air, not until 2025.
1:00:29- No, the, Mark said all other Macs should be.
1:00:34- Yeah, but then he says the Mac, except the MacBook Air, he threw the MacBook Air in there.
1:00:39- I'm sorry, I misread that.
1:00:40Thank you.
1:00:41- Although I find that weird and maybe it's a chip volume thing, but like, I don't know,
1:00:46you're shipping an M4 iPad.
1:00:47Wouldn't you want to ship an M4 MacBook Air sooner rather than later?
1:00:52But it may just be a sheer volume thing that they just can't have.
1:00:56They won't have enough because they know how many MacBook Air sell and they won't have
1:01:01enough for that product.
1:01:02And so they're going to wait until next year.
1:01:04But that, yeah, I find that a little surprising, but that's where they are.
1:01:10The Air, in my opinion, the Air should be the first Mac to get a new chip of a new generation.
1:01:15But I also get that it's the best-selling one.
1:01:18- Well, remind me, is this the basis of the iPhone chip too?
1:01:22Like, I forget how this works now.
1:01:25- The, this, so the, the M4 isn't, but the, the presumably there will be an iPhone chip
1:01:32that will be on this process, the new TSMC process, which will take volume, right?
1:01:40- Yes.
1:01:40- Presumably there is volume that they are putting on the iPhone because they need those chips.
1:01:46And that won't be called an M, it will be called an A, but, and it might have, I assume it'll
1:01:52have the CPU cores and the GPU cores from the M4.
1:01:56I assume that it will use a lot of the same work as the M4, but they tend to call it something
1:02:02else because they make it for the phone.
1:02:04So it's more power efficient, et cetera, et cetera.
1:02:06But like, it's going to be the same process, presumably.
1:02:09And so that factors in too, right?
1:02:12They got to make a lot of chips for the iPhone for this fall.
1:02:15- A lot of them.
1:02:17Yeah.
1:02:17Maybe the iPhones and the iPads are enough that you wouldn't want to have the MacBook
1:02:22Air at the same time.
1:02:23Like maybe it's, maybe it's too much.
1:02:25I don't know.
1:02:26- Yeah.
1:02:26I seriously think there's a spreadsheet somewhere.
1:02:28Cause I'm sure, look, I'm sure they would make the MacBook Air the first M series, a
1:02:32Mac, right?
1:02:33If they could, there's gotta be a spreadsheet somewhere of TSMC capacity and reserved for
1:02:39the iPhone and reserved for this M4 chip that they're putting in lower volume products,
1:02:43like the iPad Pro and probably some other low volume Macs as we get to the fall.
1:02:48And they've got the, they want to do the pro and max variants for the MacBook Pro and put
1:02:53them out there.
1:02:54And you know, you start to look at it and you think, you know, we just revved the MacBook
1:02:58Air.
1:02:59It's fine.
1:02:59Like I literally still have my review units on my desk.
1:03:02I haven't put them in the boxes yet to send them back to Apple.
1:03:05Like they just came out.
1:03:08So I can see somebody inside Apple say, you know, it's fine.
1:03:12And the truth is those of us who are super wired into Apple stuff know about the M4 and
1:03:18care about it.
1:03:19But I think Apple probably also knows that the existence of the M4 iPad Air, probably
1:03:24not going to hurt MacBook Air sales really.
1:03:26Not that much.
1:03:27It's fine.
1:03:28- You know, I saw this one other headline today.
1:03:30I just think it's hilarious from MacRumors.
1:03:33Apple's chief operating officer, Jeff Williams has visited Taiwan to secure supply TSMC's
1:03:38upcoming two nanometer chips.
1:03:40Economic Daily News reports the visit apparently involved the meeting between Williams and
1:03:44TSMC's president to discuss custom AI chips and ensure that Apple will be able to access
1:03:50the chip makers two nanometer manufacturing process set to begin in 2025.
1:03:54I saw someone, I wish I remember who it was now.
1:03:58It was either on threads or on Mastodon saying, has anybody from this team slept in the last
1:04:06five years?
1:04:07Unbelievable.
1:04:08Really unbelievable.
1:04:10- It just keeps going.
1:04:11I mean, that's what I've said this before, but like one of the things that I'm impressed
1:04:16by about Apple people, especially on the non-marketing side, on the technical side is they have to
1:04:23talk when a product launches, they're talking about the past.
1:04:27They probably have to be reminded of what they did, right?
1:04:30Like when Johnny Srouji appears and he's like, hey, new chip, yay.
1:04:33Like that chip is old news.
1:04:35That chip is a work he did three, four years ago.
1:04:38It's old stuff.
1:04:40They're onto the next one, right?
1:04:41Like we're all like, whoa, three nanometer process.
1:04:43It's like, no, no, Jeff Williams is talking to TSMC about their two nanometer process.
1:04:48They're already thinking about the chip that they're going to use in 25 or 26.
1:04:51Like they're onto the next one already.
1:04:53- That was Ben McCarthy's joke who said, I get the impression no one on Apple's chip
1:04:57design team has taken a day off in about five years.
1:05:00That was the joke.
1:05:01And I wholeheartedly endorsed that idea.
1:05:04- Yeah, so bring on the, I mean, and for people who are like, well, I mean, what happens after
1:05:09the nanometer like runs out?
1:05:12We were, are there no, like there's only two left and then what?
1:05:16Only answer is don't worry.
1:05:18Then we recalibrate the scale and we start talking about picometers.
1:05:23Hooray.
1:05:25So get ready for that.
1:05:27That'll be something.
1:05:28- Bulldog anthem.
1:05:28- Yeah.
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1:08:13So I got an iPad pro.
1:08:17Yay.
1:08:19I picked it up over the weekend.
1:08:20I got the 11 inch model.
1:08:22I wanted to talk about my experience with this a little bit.
1:08:27It's going to be different to some of the other conversation about the iPad pro.
1:08:33I sent you a text, you and Steven, a slack message where I said, you know what?
1:08:38I think I'm iPad discoursed out.
1:08:40I, I, we had a really good episode of Mac break weekly last week.
1:08:44In studio, me and Micah, along with Leo and then Andy remotely.
1:08:49And I think we had, we had new iPad pros there and I think we had a really good discussion.
1:08:53I was very happy with the sort of points that I made on that.
1:08:56And then I came back home and I was exhausted.
1:08:58And, uh, and I said to you guys, I think I'm discoursed out about the iPad pro.
1:09:04I think I'm done.
1:09:04I think I've said every word and probably several more than that, that I have to say
1:09:10about, uh, working on an iPad, et cetera, et cetera.
1:09:13And I would like to re you know, go back into the, into the bushes like Homer Simpson.
1:09:18So I, I love hearing you want to take this from another angle.
1:09:24It's beautiful.
1:09:25Cause like I understand where this comes from and I've gone through my own journey.
1:09:31You know, like I was in the camp of you and Federico of really trying to do work on my
1:09:40iPad pro, like we use it as my laptop and I did for a long time.
1:09:45But then a combination of workplace changes.
1:09:49So when I got my studio and Apple silicon kind of changed it.
1:09:53And then I just moved back to the Mac.
1:09:54Since then I've mostly focused my iPad usage on watching video, playing games, browsing
1:10:02the web, like communication, you like iMessage and slack, but not like we're really getting
1:10:07into stuff, not a ton of work really.
1:10:10And reading comics.
1:10:12And I've gotten by great in the past couple of years using an iPad mini, but I have been
1:10:18basically since the beginning frustrated with the quality of the screen on the iPad mini.
1:10:23And I was really interested in this iPad pro for my iPad needs, because I think for all
1:10:32of those things, video gaming, web browsing, like using it as my kind of like home computer,
1:10:38which is just like mostly things for me, not things for work and reading comics.
1:10:43I thought that the iPad pro would do a great job and the decrease in weight and thickness
1:10:49would maybe make it not so much of a thing going from the mini to the 11 inch.
1:10:54So it is incredibly thin and light.
1:10:56It's very funny to me that it's fitted in my iPad mini.
1:11:00I know this, but also it's funny anyway, like it's just like a weird thing.
1:11:04I'm still getting used to the screen size.
1:11:07It feels massive to me for an iPad because I have been so used to now using an iPad mini.
1:11:16This, the 11 inch iPad pro feels monstrously large.
1:11:20It's very strange how you kind of like accustomed to that.
1:11:23But the thing that I am happiest about is the screen.
1:11:27This screen is incredible.
1:11:29It's so good.
1:11:31The OLED, like I watched X-Men 97 on my iPad, right?
1:11:37And like, it's just a cartoon, fantastic cartoon.
1:11:40Oh my God, by the way.
1:11:41Oh my God, could not recommend X-Men 97 enough.
1:11:44Incredible.
1:11:44But I pressed play and a trailer for the Indiana Jones movie started up and it was in like
1:11:52Dolby Vision.
1:11:53I couldn't believe it.
1:11:55I couldn't believe it.
1:11:56It was like, I could not believe how good it looked.
1:12:00I was blown away by it.
1:12:03Like, because it's, you know, the OLED, like I think one of the first scenes is like, they're
1:12:07in like a, it's like a dark street, but there's like a neon sign.
1:12:11Oh my God, it looked incredible.
1:12:13And so, yeah, screens are all good.
1:12:15Like OLED in general is great.
1:12:18And you mentioned this last time and I don't even hearing you say it, I don't think I was
1:12:22prepared for the idea of like, everything about iPadOS looks better with an OLED screen.
1:12:27Everything.
1:12:28It's not just video.
1:12:29Everything.
1:12:30Like little panels come up and you're like, Whoa, that's very bright.
1:12:33Yeah.
1:12:33Or just like the color, like the richness of the color feels better.
1:12:37Like just looking at my home screen just is so much nicer.
1:12:40And you're coming from the mini, right?
1:12:41Like I found it a little more subtle, but I'm coming from the best iPad screen ever
1:12:46made, which was the 12.9 with the mini LED backlighting and the 2,500 different dimming
1:12:52zones.
1:12:52But if you're not coming from that one, then it's just that much more stark.
1:12:56Yes.
1:12:56Massively different.
1:12:57Massively different.
1:12:59Like, yeah, the mini screen is not good.
1:13:02Like it has the jelly scrolling issue where you kind of like sometimes scroll.
1:13:07It looks like the two halves of the screen is scrolling at a different refresh rate,
1:13:10which is really weird.
1:13:10So, but you know, I'm also, I have ProMotion again on an iPad where it's really noticeable
1:13:16on the iPad.
1:13:17I feel like it works very well on that screen.
1:13:19And I've had iPad pros before, but it's been a long time for me.
1:13:22Right.
1:13:22And so, but yeah, I skipped them.
1:13:24My last iPad pro was the 2020 iPad pro.
1:13:27So like I didn't get any of those, like the mini LED changes and that kind of stuff.
1:13:31I had forgotten how good face ID is for an iPad.
1:13:35But it's not better than touch ID in every scenario for me.
1:13:41So when I'm using the iPad, I much prefer it for like, you know, authenticate, one password,
1:13:48all that kind of stuff.
1:13:50But unlocking an iPad pro isn't as nice in my opinion as unlocking the iPad mini was,
1:13:58because if you have a keyboard attached, you just tap a key and it unlocks for you.
1:14:02But if you don't have a keyboard attached, you pick it up, wake the screen and then have
1:14:07to swipe it or whatever.
1:14:09Right.
1:14:09Right.
1:14:10Where like with the iPad mini, I would unlock it by like, I'd wake up the screen by touching
1:14:16the same button that also would read my fingerprint and unlock the iPad.
1:14:20When now I'm more like how I pick it up, I tap the screen to wake it and then I'm like,
1:14:25oh, no, I swipe up.
1:14:26It's like, it's just, it's not as smooth an experience where I remember with having the
1:14:31keyboard, you just like tap the space bar and the iPad will unlock.
1:14:35Because I don't have a magic keyboard and I have no desire to get one.
1:14:38Like it could not be further away from what I want my iPad to do.
1:14:44And like, I don't want to add the weight and the bulk for a keyboard that I'm trying not
1:14:48to use really, because I don't want to make this like a big work device for me.
1:14:53So I am using the Magic Folio, the denim color, because it's the only color.
1:15:03It has new magnet positions, which is nice.
1:15:06It's a little more fiddly, but you basically have like a much more adjustability in the
1:15:11angles, so it can be fiddly to get there, but I like it.
1:15:14Like I like that I can lean it back a little bit more or have it kind of standing up straight
1:15:18a little bit more.
1:15:19I think that's, it's cool that they added that.
1:15:21So I like that they did that and it isn't just all about getting the keyboard and that's
1:15:25your only adjustability option.
1:15:27Like I think that's kind of cool.
1:15:29But yeah, I do really like face ID though.
1:15:32Like having that back again on the iPad is just nice.
1:15:35I kind of forgotten how comfortable that is.
1:15:37I have had a couple of times similar to you where I'm holding it in such a way that I'm
1:15:44covering the sensors, but they deal with that pretty well.
1:15:49Yeah, I found that my usual horizontal holding is upside down from where they put the camera.
1:15:59So I have to retrain myself to hold it the other way, mostly because I prefer to have
1:16:03the back of the Folio case hang down and attach and not have it be upside down where if it's
1:16:10not perfectly attached, it falls over.
1:16:11It's just a different feel and I preferred it, but now I just have to train myself out
1:16:15of it because there's nothing worse than opening it up and being like, oh, I can't
1:16:19do your face ID.
1:16:19And I realize, oh yeah, it's all the way down at the bottom and my shirt is covering
1:16:24it or whatever.
1:16:24I'm like, I got to flip it back over.
1:16:26Coming from the mini, I cannot stop noticing how fast and smooth everything is.
1:16:33I expect this is a combination above the M4 and ProMotion, but everything is moving faster,
1:16:40better.
1:16:41I am getting a sense of like, this is a very powerful computer.
1:16:46I feel like I have that in my, I can feel the power in it.
1:16:49Also having a pencil attached to the iPad again, obviously I did not do that with my
1:16:54iPad mini because one, the pencil is really big compared to the mini and two, I wouldn't
1:17:00ever really feel myself wanting to use it on that screen because it was so small.
1:17:04But I'm very happy to have the Apple Pencil and iPad Pro back for product design stuff.
1:17:11Many times I've borrowed my wife's iPad to sit and draw something out for like a new
1:17:18Cortex brand notepad or something like, we'll draw it out because I just find that to be
1:17:22a nice experience and I'm happy to have something that's back to being mine again for that.
1:17:27And the Apple Pencil Pro is an incredible upgrade.
1:17:30The haptics feeling are fantastic.
1:17:32The squeeze gesture to bring up the little palette is brilliant.
1:17:35I'm really intrigued to see more apps and what they're going to do with the haptic stuff.
1:17:40And it's nice to have that again.
1:17:44I think if you use an Apple Pencil a lot, like if you're an illustrator or an artist,
1:17:50there is I think enough in here that you would want to upgrade for it.
1:17:54I think it is a significantly better experience to be able to access tools like right where you are.
1:18:02Also, this is the first time I've had hover, Apple Pencil hover.
1:18:05- Oh yeah, right. - That's really cool.
1:18:06For me, the majority of my usage has always been interface stuff, right?
1:18:15I was a big proponent of that.
1:18:17It's really nice to have the little indicator wherever I'm hovering over.
1:18:22Like if I was using the trackpad or whatever, I like that a lot.
1:18:25So yeah, I'm super happy with this iPad.
1:18:28I feel very confident in saying if you have a 2018 or 2020 iPad Pro,
1:18:34this is the update you've been waiting for.
1:18:36You should upgrade to this one.
1:18:38If you use an iPad Pro and you have that first redesign model and you use it regularly,
1:18:45I think if you move to this, you will be very happy with the upgrade.
1:18:49Because I think this is a significant upgrade, especially the screen.
1:18:52I mean, that's what an iPad is, right?
1:18:55It's the screen and this screen is bananas good.
1:18:58Like it's so good.
1:19:00Everything looks fantastic on it.
1:19:02And if you watch stuff that is like Dolby Vision, like HDR, incredible.
1:19:09Looking at pictures on this thing, incredible.
1:19:11Videos, incredible, right?
1:19:12Because it's all the smart HDR stuff.
1:19:14Yeah, this is a fantastic iPad.
1:19:17I love it.
1:19:18I don't think I'm going to use my Mini anymore.
1:19:22I was wondering, right?
1:19:23Like, will I still use the Mini?
1:19:25I was worried about your Mini, right?
1:19:27I was like, is he going to be disappointed with the size of this thing?
1:19:30Because the Mini is so wonderfully small, but you lose all those features.
1:19:36Because for me, I was still wondering like, oh, let's use the Mini to read comics.
1:19:40Because it's so small and nice to hold in bed.
1:19:42But no, no, no.
1:19:44The old lady is too good.
1:19:45It's too good.
1:19:47So yeah, I'm pretty sure the Mini will be visiting a farm upstate at some point soon.
1:19:54Because this thing is, I love it.
1:19:56For everything I want to use my iPad for, it is better at all of those things significantly.
1:20:02This is a really, really good device.
1:20:05And yet the thinness and lightness of it is fantastic.
1:20:08It's wild that they built a device that's like this.
1:20:13It's a real flex.
1:20:15And also they don't flex.
1:20:17Which is, that's been a thing, right?
1:20:19There's been a lot of bend tests now.
1:20:20And it's holding up.
1:20:23So bravo, Apple, I think this is a great iPad.
1:20:26Yeah, I wanted to say again about one of the things I've appreciated about the pencil is
1:20:31the haptics are really well done, right?
1:20:32That we've talked about how, I know I mentioned this last week.
1:20:35We've talked about how the pencil is in some ways like the ultimate Apple product.
1:20:38Because it feels like it doesn't have technology in it at all.
1:20:41It's actually stuffed full of it.
1:20:42And that video showed like flying through the barrel of the pencil and all that.
1:20:46But from the outside, it might as well be a piece of wood.
1:20:49It is, there's nothing there.
1:20:50And the haptics are also tastefully done where, you know, they say the haptics up in the top
1:20:55of the barrel, but you wouldn't know.
1:20:57Like the effect is incredibly solid and strong.
1:21:02And then that squeeze gesture, which I find just so much more natural than the double
1:21:06tap, which is still there, right?
1:21:07You can still do double tap.
1:21:09But the squeeze gesture I feel like is more purposeful.
1:21:13I feel comfortable making the squeeze gesture in a way that I did not.
1:21:17With the double tap, I can kind of keep it in my hand and squeeze versus the double tap
1:21:21where I have to change my grip.
1:21:22I think it's better.
1:21:23And although anybody can write their, to the API to handle the squeeze gesture how they
1:21:30want.
1:21:30I just want to say again, how impressed I am with the undo that they built.
1:21:35The radial undo.
1:21:37Because one of the challenges in iOS for ages has been, how do you do undo on a device that
1:21:41doesn't have a keyboard so you can't do command Z?
1:21:44And it's been like, you can shake it or you can make a finger gesture.
1:21:47But the undo with the squeeze gesture brings up a ring and you can trace backward and watch
1:21:55your drawing, let's say, go backward and then trace it back forward.
1:21:59- How do you do that?
1:22:00- So you go, you squeeze on anything that's doing pencil kit and there'll be an undo item
1:22:06and you select the undo item.
1:22:08And then it turns into an undo ring.
1:22:10And then you just move your pencil along the ring and it will step backward or forward.
1:22:16It's basically an undo history like you'd see in Photoshop or something.
1:22:19And you can find the state of undo instead of going back, back, back, back, back, back,
1:22:25no forward, forward, forward, back, that one.
1:22:28You just trace it.
1:22:30- You have to like tap and hold on it.
1:22:34So you like select it, you like just press on it and then you get,
1:22:39oh, and it's got a little haptic on each notch.
1:22:41That's sick.
1:22:42That is sick.
1:22:43- It's really good.
1:22:44So that was my, that's my sleeper pick.
1:22:48- I'd forgotten about that.
1:22:49- My favorite feature is whoever came up with the radial pencil undo.
1:22:56Not only is it super smart, I gotta say it should probably be system-wide without the pencil.
1:23:02I would much rather be able to do like a three finger tap or a double tap or a triple tap
1:23:09to bring up a ring that would let me just do a-
1:23:10- Oh my God, you could just keep going forever.
1:23:12Wow, what a feature.
1:23:15- Yeah.
1:23:16It's good stuff.
1:23:18It's good stuff.
1:23:19Thumbs up to the pencil people.
1:23:21I know it doesn't, it's like, oh, it's just the pencil and it's a little nicer and all that.
1:23:24And the barrel roll, people are gonna experiment with the barrel roll to do different things.
1:23:27Like I keep waiting.
1:23:28I imagine Ferrite will at some point let you barrel roll to like change,
1:23:32because all the audio settings are like knobs to like just change the balance by maybe even
1:23:37hovering over a control and then just turning the pencil, right?
1:23:41Like, yeah, it's not for everybody.
1:23:46Everybody's got their own use cases, but wow, for what it is and its audience,
1:23:50it's really perfectly implemented, the whole, the hardware and software of the Pencil Pro.
1:23:54- Yeah, my wife is an illustrator and we've been talking about this and I showed her the new stuff
1:24:01and she was really, she thought it was really cool.
1:24:02She watched the event and was really impressed by, she's a Procreate user.
1:24:06She was really impressed by what they were showing, but that's not available yet.
1:24:10Like they've updated it to support the new Pencil,
1:24:13but they've not given their like big update that's coming.
1:24:16And so I think our plan is when it comes out, she's gonna try it and we'll probably trade in
1:24:22our old iPad and get her a new one. 'Cause for her, I think the thing that they showed
1:24:27about being able to select layers is like massively, massively excellent.
1:24:32- Oh yeah, right.
1:24:33- The layer selection on the lighten like really, really,
1:24:36really would make a huge difference for anyone creating art.
1:24:39- The goal is, and I know people don't understand this because when I talk about keyboard shortcuts,
1:24:44like back with the media controls before there was a function around the Magic Keyboard,
1:24:49people were like, well, just reach up and like, I don't wanna reach up.
1:24:52My hands on the keyboard.
1:24:53When my hands on the keyboard, I wanna keep it on the keyboard.
1:24:55I'm in keyboard mode.
1:24:56The last thing I wanna do is break out of keyboard mode, go fiddle around.
1:24:59Like I just wanna hit the key and then go back to what I'm doing.
1:25:02That's what I want.
1:25:03With the Pencil, it's the exact same thing, which is if you can build interfaces and gestures
1:25:09and things into the Pencil so that there's more you can do while you're working with the Pencil
1:25:14that doesn't require you to put down the Pencil, it's huge.
1:25:19And so, yeah, selecting is a great example of that.
1:25:23Undoing is a great example of that.
1:25:26Being able to do that squeeze and then pick another item from a palette and go somewhere else
1:25:30is a great way to keep you engaged in holding the Pencil instead of having to set it down.
1:25:36Because I mean, I run into that in "Faireite" every now and then where I have to do something
1:25:39like a, and you could go through the interface with it too, but like, I don't know, for me,
1:25:44I end up going, I'm just gonna set the Pencil down 'cause I'm tapping through the interface.
1:25:48Unlike you, I don't love tapping through the interface with the Pencil.
1:25:50I'd really rather just get to the thing really quickly and then be back with my job.
1:25:55But when you do that, you've broken concentration, I think, when you go into the UI.
1:26:00So to have it all be triggered from the Pencil, it unlocks, I think, more creativity because
1:26:06you're not breaking stride.
1:26:08You're able to continue your focus.
1:26:10Your hand is in, it's on the Pencil, it's in the right place.
1:26:13You're doing the right thing there.
1:26:14- So yeah, two thumbs up from me.
1:26:18I understand the frustration that everybody has.
1:26:20I also want iPadOS to be better, but for me, iPadOS is doing a great job at what I want
1:26:26it to do right now.
1:26:28And I'm happy with where this tool fits within my lineup of products that I use.
1:26:32- Yeah, for all of our conversations about this, what I don't wanna get lost is there
1:26:39are lots of amazing iPad use cases and everybody's got their own.
1:26:44But I don't have a lot of time for people who are like, "Yeah, the iPad, it's irrelevant."
1:26:49Like if that's okay, that's fine.
1:26:50But just 'cause it's irrelevant for you, it doesn't mean it's irrelevant for other people.
1:26:53I think, like, I don't know if it's my most used Apple device because I sit at my Mac
1:26:59all day, but like everywhere else, I'm in bed in the morning, before I go to bed, sitting
1:27:07on the couch watching TV, like cooking in the kitchen, like that's all iPad.
1:27:12It's all iPad for me.
1:27:13I have found so many places where it fits better in my life than a laptop or a phone.
1:27:18And I'm very happy about it.
1:27:19Not everybody's like that, that's fine, but there are so many great use cases.
1:27:23So it's great to hear you talk about yours.
1:27:25There are lots of reasons to be critical about the way that Apple has acted as a shepherd
1:27:31for iPadOS, as the developer of iPadOS and not taking it places that it perhaps should
1:27:37go given some of the hardware that they're building.
1:27:40But that doesn't change the fact that it's still a remarkable product in a lot of ways.
1:27:45And in fact, one of the reasons people are motivated to criticize it is because they
1:27:50like it and they want it to be even better.
1:27:52So anyway, lots of great places where you can use an iPad.
1:27:56I'm glad that I really wasn't sure that you would convert from the iPad mini because the
1:28:01mini is so delightfully small, but there's so many other things about these other iPads
1:28:06that are great.
1:28:07- Yeah, exactly.
1:28:10I wanted to try and yes, I mean, what it has kind of reminded me is first and foremost,
1:28:17I love new technology and this has new technology, like a lot of new technology in it.
1:28:22And I am enamored with it really.
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1:28:51Last night, Mike, last night, what did we do?
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1:29:07that I like that's for meesir wat, it's a Ethiopian lentils dish.
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1:29:53And we had this great lentil dish and fresh bread.
1:30:01I just sliced all the bread and put it on a plate.
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1:31:24So how do you get fresh bread at home?
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1:31:31Yeah, you successfully did it.
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1:32:15It is time for some Ask Upgrade Questions.
1:32:21How did you feel about Steven doing the lasers?
1:32:25Well, I couldn't hear him when he did them, but we put them back in later and they're
1:32:30fine.
1:32:31They're fine.
1:32:31It was good that he did them.
1:32:32I thought that was fun.
1:32:33I was, I wondered if there was going to be a laser war of some kind.
1:32:37Maybe you were going to find it back.
1:32:38Oh yeah.
1:32:38Well, I mean, if I could have heard them myself, but they were, we had to change it in the
1:32:43edit because it was, it was just like, he's got, there's something about his office
1:32:47set up where he's got the literally really aggressive noise canceling where you can't
1:32:52hear his bell dinging.
1:32:54We have this all the time.
1:32:55You can't hear him going, it's just a problem.
1:32:58Steven has stealth lasers.
1:33:00Dave asks, when you take your iPad off of your Magic Keyboard, do you put it in a case
1:33:07to carry it around?
1:33:09There are times where I'm running around when I want the iPad, but not the keyboard.
1:33:13What do you do, Jason?
1:33:14I mostly have at all times a Smart Folio cover as well as a Magic Keyboard.
1:33:22Okay.
1:33:23And I use the Magic Keyboard.
1:33:24I found a lot of people expect that you keep the iPad in the Magic Keyboard all the time.
1:33:29I don't, I don't.
1:33:31Oh, you tactically deploy it.
1:33:33I do.
1:33:34I do.
1:33:34You know, I love a tactical deployment, Mike.
1:33:37That is my, we love it here on the upgrade program.
1:33:40We love a tactical deployment.
1:33:41Do we?
1:33:42Okay.
1:33:42We do.
1:33:42We do.
1:33:43We love it.
1:33:44I love it when things are deployed tactically.
1:33:46When there's a deployment that happens and you're like, you know what?
1:33:48That's a tactical.
1:33:49If it's not tactical, I don't want it.
1:33:52No, exactly right.
1:33:53If it's not, it's like a big highfalutin kind of like theoretical deployment.
1:33:56I want it to be tied to a tactic.
1:33:58Anyway, we love a tactical deployment.
1:34:00And that's what I do.
1:34:01So I keep my iPad most of the time in the, in the Smart Folio.
1:34:07Most of the time, though, occasionally with this new one, I've been taking it out of the
1:34:12Smart Folio every now and then and been like, but it is now is within and light, right?
1:34:16But mostly it's in the Smart Folio.
1:34:17If I'm going to be using it in extended time, I might take it off, but mostly it just stays
1:34:21in the Smart Folio.
1:34:22The keyboard, it just hangs around until I need to write something or type something
1:34:27that's of length.
1:34:28And then I will put it on, but I don't because I want it to be lighter.
1:34:32I mean, that's the thing when I say that the problem with the MacBook is that you can't
1:34:35rip the screen off and go, you know, use it.
1:34:38That's why it's because most of the time I don't need the keyboard.
1:34:42And so I don't want the weight.
1:34:44And the beauty of it is it's just the keyboard's around and I will, I'm like, oh, I'm going
1:34:49to write something on the iPad now and I will go find my keyboard and I'll snap it in and
1:34:52then I'll write my thing.
1:34:53But I don't have it hanging around all the time.
1:34:56I'm in the Smart Folio cover, which I'll just say again, Apple has decided in their great
1:35:01wisdom to only make, they made one cover, one color for the cover.
1:35:05Whereas when the old iPad Pro came out for the longest time, you only could get it in
1:35:10gray and then maybe I think gray and white.
1:35:12They finally made like some beautiful colors.
1:35:15I have an orange Smart Folio for my M1 iPad Pro.
1:35:19That's beautiful.
1:35:21They have denim as the only color option other than gray and white.
1:35:29What I'll tell you is whatever you think denim is, it ain't that like, this isn't denim.
1:35:35It doesn't look like denim.
1:35:37It's like a navy blue.
1:35:38I wouldn't even call it navy blue.
1:35:41It's like, it's blue.
1:35:43I don't know how to describe it.
1:35:44But I wouldn't think of it as denim, but yeah, it's like a kind of muted blue.
1:35:48Blue jeans come in all sorts of colors, including dark colors like this.
1:35:53I think.
1:35:54Whatever you think of as like your standard Levi's 501 blue jean or whatever, which is
1:36:00canonically denim, I suppose.
1:36:02Yeah, it's not like that.
1:36:04It's not that color at all.
1:36:05It's a lot darker.
1:36:06I use, I keep, obviously I said earlier, I don't have a smart keyboard.
1:36:12I do magic cube, whatever it's called.
1:36:14I do kind of wish I could live the no case life for the iPad, but like for me, the case
1:36:20is very important to the functionality of the iPad.
1:36:23Like I want my iPad to stand.
1:36:25Yes.
1:36:26Like that is very important to me.
1:36:27Yes.
1:36:29And I don't really, I don't, I don't screw with kickstands.
1:36:32I'm not a kickstand guy.
1:36:34No, kickstands are bad.
1:36:35Thumbs down to the kickstands.
1:36:36So yes, I, the case is great and I use it in all sorts of ways to, yeah, to put it up
1:36:42right, to have it be in sort of typing position.
1:36:44There are lots of ways that, that it works better.
1:36:47I just wish that I wish the, there were some color options.
1:36:50They're not going to give me color options for my iPad.
1:36:52I wish there were color options for the, the, the cases.
1:36:54And I'm just disappointed that the denim is the best we managed this time after that.
1:37:00Cause I want that orange again, orange is so good or yellow or a, or something brighter
1:37:05would be really nice.
1:37:06And they did, there was like that brief moment where they're like, yeah, you could do a
1:37:10bright cover for an iPad Pro.
1:37:12And then they got, then there was the crackdown, right?
1:37:13The colors came back from vacation.
1:37:15It was like, what are we doing here?
1:37:16And then back in, back in lockdown.
1:37:18I have another similar question in the same vein from Neil who says, I am a caseless iPad
1:37:25user as I appreciate the svelte dimensions of a bare device.
1:37:29So I often wonder what the use case is for a relatively bulky, relatively bulky keyboard
1:37:35case versus using a good Bluetooth keyboard.
1:37:37Are there many situations where the iPad of a separate keyboard is worse?
1:37:41So couple of things here.
1:37:44One is Bluetooth keyboard is great, but where's the iPad?
1:37:49Is it in a, it's gotta be like you're using it like flat on a table or something.
1:37:55That's bad ergonomics.
1:37:56I realize now I did cut out part of this question, which is important where they said that they
1:38:00were, they thought that the studio neat canopy looked interesting, right?
1:38:05It's like a device to carry a keyboard in and then to use as a stand for whenever you
1:38:09want to use that.
1:38:09Sure.
1:38:10So it's a combo.
1:38:11You've got to have a stand and a Bluetooth keyboard.
1:38:14It's perfectly reasonable.
1:38:15I have a, I have a stand that I use when my iPad is on my, the bar of my kitchen.
1:38:23I put it in, I clip it in and it puts it up high.
1:38:27And then I use a, I use a Bluetooth keyboard and it's really nice when I'm using it there.
1:38:33But that's a whole setup where I've got a stand and all of that I've used.
1:38:36I mean, that, that old studio neat canopy was really nice as, as a way of traveling with
1:38:42a keyboard separately and all that.
1:38:43But the beauty of the magic keyboard is that it is just a laptop.
1:38:48It's all in one.
1:38:49The stand is there and it's the best experience because it's hovering over the keyboard.
1:38:54It's adjustable.
1:38:55It's all in one piece.
1:38:56And if you're working on your lap, which I do a lot, like I, I, I'm doing a lot of that
1:39:02on my lap in, on the couch or out in a camp chair under the redwood tree in the summertime.
1:39:08Like that's in a scenario like that, you got to have it all together.
1:39:13You also get the track pad, right?
1:39:14Like the track pad is a, is a big deal for that product.
1:39:18Right.
1:39:18When I'm working these days, when I'm working on the, um, on the bar, the bar top on sitting
1:39:23on a bar stool, I will also have a track pad that I bring out.
1:39:27Right.
1:39:28And so it is nice to have it all in one.
1:39:30Yeah, it is.
1:39:32It is.
1:39:32So there are, there are scenarios where I think it's perfectly reasonable to do this and travel
1:39:37with a keyboard.
1:39:38I just decided, and also you can save money because Bluetooth keyboards are way cheaper
1:39:41than the magic keyboard.
1:39:42You can absolutely save money doing it that way.
1:39:44But ideally the magic keyboard is like a really good, it's just a good fit.
1:39:49If you need, if you're willing to spend the money and, and you want that kind of perfect
1:39:55fit and good portability, it's, it's worth it.
1:39:57But I absolutely use a mechanical keyboard and an iPad when I'm inside at a, you know,
1:40:05at the bar, but that's not right.
1:40:08That's only one use case where that makes sense.
1:40:10And car asks, given that the M four chip has a dedicated controller for the OLED tandem
1:40:18display in the iPad pro.
1:40:19What are the chances that an M four based Mac book pro rumored for this year and the
1:40:25M four MacBook cares for next year could have OLED displays related chances for an OLED
1:40:31display to pair with an M four based Mac desktop later this year or next?
1:40:36Do you think that the, basically, do you think the inclusion of the display controller for
1:40:42the OLED tandem display could indicate that we could see OLED displays in laptops?
1:40:48Yeah, I think, I think it could mean that the MacBook pros are getting OLED displays,
1:40:53not the MacBook air.
1:40:56Prices don't make sense.
1:40:58In fact, I wonder if they do OLED for the MacBook pros, if they might actually segment
1:41:02them further and, you know, they all have that same really nice display now, but I wonder
1:41:07if that low end M three 14 inch MacBook pro, I wonder if the $1,500 to $2,000 range just
1:41:16keeps that screen, but they put an OLED in the higher end screens.
1:41:20I wonder if that might be the way that they would do it.
1:41:23Not the MacBook air.
1:41:25I thought this question was going to be, does this mean that maybe it'll dry?
1:41:28The MacBook air will drive two external displays with the lid closed.
1:41:32Maybe.
1:41:33And I think maybe like, like a new display controller that souped up like that.
1:41:38It makes me think that maybe there are some Mac applications.
1:41:42This is a more broad answer.
1:41:44They're probably Mac applications for doing that.
1:41:46Like the M four is mostly not going in the iPad pro, right?
1:41:50It's mostly going to go in max.
1:41:51Max are gonna, they're going to be more max out there with it than iPad pros in the long
1:41:55run.
1:41:55So there are probably Mac reasons to have that display controller in there too.
1:41:59And they're just not talking about it because they don't have a Mac to talk about right
1:42:02now.
1:42:02So I would think that there are going to be some things I also wonder if like, could it
1:42:08mean that it it's got improved functionality for like the virtual display on the vision
1:42:13pro.
1:42:14Like, I don't know what all it might enable, but it does sure feel like they wouldn't have
1:42:19upgraded the display controller on the M four just for the iPad pro.
1:42:25It feels like there are probably other applications for it, whatever they might be.
1:42:28Do you know, you might not know this, but like the, the tandem system, is it showing
1:42:37like two copies of the same thing?
1:42:39I think it is.
1:42:40I think, I think it's one is right behind the other and they're showing the same thing.
1:42:43And that's how you get the increased brightness.
1:42:45So like essentially if you were to like split it up, right?
1:42:48Like if you were able to like pull them apart and do something with it, you would have essentially
1:42:52two displays.
1:42:53Right.
1:42:54And they're, they're both showing the same image.
1:42:57But the pathway is, is different.
1:42:59It's not like you're actually using two displays.
1:43:02This is, I tried to get into this in detail with Apple in New York and there was a point
1:43:06beyond which they were just not willing to go.
1:43:09They're like, we could, you could talk to our display people that we're not gonna let
1:43:12you talk to.
1:43:13Cause I wanted to know more about this, but my understanding is that.
1:43:19Since it's sending the same signal to both panels, it's not like the device is drawing
1:43:26things twice.
1:43:27Right.
1:43:28It's drawing it once and telling both panels to draw the same thing.
1:43:32So it's not right.
1:43:34You get it?
1:43:34Like it's, it's, it is more like driving one display, but yeah, if you pull them apart,
1:43:40they're basically mirrored.
1:43:41The thing that they have to do, and they did talk about this, which is fascinating is every
1:43:46OLED panel has a different characteristic.
1:43:49Like not every dot on an OLED panel is, has the same max brightness, which I did not know.
1:43:56They're all a little different.
1:43:59That's just a quirk of OLED.
1:44:00And so they have to be calibrated.
1:44:03And so they put the screens through calibration and you end up with like a calibration map
1:44:09of this pixel should only go this bright and this pixel should only go this bright.
1:44:13And the reason you do that is you want them all to be uniform, even though physically
1:44:17they're not uniform.
1:44:18If you don't do that, then continuous red or whatever ends up looking blotchy because
1:44:25they're all red, but they're all not quite the same.
1:44:28And so they have to do that.
1:44:30And what they told me is they have to do that and they have to do it for two different monitors.
1:44:35And they have to have both of those displays, do those at high resolution at high frame
1:44:42refresh on the fly.
1:44:44They have to modify every single pixel that is coming from the computer has to be modified
1:44:50based on the calibration.
1:44:51And they said that is the kind of thing that you need to do down at the very lowest level,
1:44:56which is why they have the display controller doing the job.
1:45:01So that part is really interesting that they're not, the panels aren't the same and even the
1:45:05individual pixels on the panels aren't the same.
1:45:07So they have to do a lot of massaging there.
1:45:10But what they don't have to do is try to draw the same thing twice.
1:45:13They draw it once and it gets sent to both panels.
1:45:15So in that way, they are identical and they're right behind each other.
1:45:19And that's to get more brightness in there.
1:45:21Quinn at Snazzy Labs did a really good YouTube video that I think we might have referenced
1:45:26last week, but he talked about tandem OLED and how it's not one of those things that
1:45:31Apple makes up and says, "Oh, it's the mega ultra display XDR Pro."
1:45:37Those kind of words.
1:45:38It's not that.
1:45:40It's existing technology that has been talked about for quite a while and Apple decided
1:45:44to actually implement in this way, which is interesting.
1:45:47- If you would like to send in a question for a future episode of the show, for Ask
1:45:52Upgrade, for Snail Talk, whatever it is, you can also send in your follow up at upgradefeedback.com.
1:45:58You can check out Jason's writing over at sixcolors.com and hear his shows on
1:46:02the incomparable.com and here on Relay FM.
1:46:04You can listen to my shows here on Relay FM too and check out my work at cortexbrand.com.
1:46:09Where online, Jason is @jsnail, J-S-N-E-L-L-L.
1:46:13I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.
1:46:15You can watch video clips of the show on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube where we are @upgraderelay.
1:46:21Thank you to our members who support us with Upgrade Plus and get longer ad-free versions
1:46:25of each and every episode.
1:46:26Go to getupgradeplus.com to find out more.
1:46:29Thank you to Wild Grain, Ooni, and Delete Me for their support of this show.
1:46:33But most of all, thank you for listening.
1:46:36We'll be back next time.
1:46:37Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snail.
1:46:39- Goodbye, Mike Hurley.
1:46:41(upbeat music)