The Accidental Tech Podcast

127: Not a Cactus in Sight

 

  how do you pronounce STA HP wow that's a word yesterday as well not really but [TS]

  it's what the kids say when they really want you to stop doing some visits tap I [TS]

  guess tap I don't know what might that I don't know I'm gonna go with staff like [TS]

  maybe maybe like the the Great Lakes accent staff yes because that's what [TS]

  this podcast needs is more talk about regional accents yes definitely I [TS]

  actually got called out of work today in a happy way some co-worker asked me a [TS]

  coworker that I just started working life asked me if I was from Jersey well [TS]

  that part wasn't happy at all that was miserable but but point being I said [TS]

  mash on something as until like it emphatically or repeatedly and [TS]

  apparently that's a northeastern thing or so I'm told [TS]

  well that's a drink in Great Britain smoke sure whatever that was squash that [TS]

  you're thinking of squash so so Def's when she heard that she said it's [TS]

  probably like getting like frozen fruit concentrate here if the fruit juice [TS]

  concentrate I think that's correct from the most I can piece together but as we [TS]

  talked about on the last episode of analog I emergency I sent an emergency [TS]

  tax to underscore David Smith the internets arbiter of all things UK vs [TS]

  American and also the internets historian and he indicated to me that we [TS]

  do not have anything that's really equipment to squash but we have things [TS]

  that have that name but it's different like football but we have that but [TS]

  that's not what you think it is it's either football or vegetable yeah [TS]

  so anyway I was asking you what's going on with cellular downloads on overcast [TS]

  and in this is ok because I see in the show notes it says pre follow-up market [TS]

  stocks I do not type at this time I don't know who did clearly it was John [TS]

  just keep adding sections but about pre preval will get there maybe next episode [TS]

  what happens if the pre follow-up generates follow-up next episode where [TS]

  do we put it then they get sucked into regular follow it as yet brief follow-up [TS]

  follow-up I don't think so he's getting recursive no I was asking you what's [TS]

  going on with your downloads an overcast because he seemed to be stressing out [TS]

  about it quite a bit [TS]

  well it's you know if this is a constant battle I have with designing overcast is [TS]

  like how to strike the balance between offering settings for customization vs [TS]

  complexity of the app because if you look like so many well featured [TS]

  well-regarded podcast apps have just these massive setting screens and it's [TS]

  not because they're badly designed by idiots it's because it's a hard problem [TS]

  and when you make a podcast app everybody asked for all these features [TS]

  and it's really hard to please a large number of people without adding a ton of [TS]

  options and customizations and features I have always tried to differentiate [TS]

  overcast from the other well-established compliance by being simpler in those [TS]

  regards its really really hard to keep that up to to manage that is like right [TS]

  now I'm working on version 2.0 one of the big features of to point out there [TS]

  willing to talk about is streaming I've been working and screaming for a long [TS]

  time they mention on this show [TS]

  couple times in various after shows it does finally work it is working I've [TS]

  been using it myself for the last couple weeks ago we like it it works well it is [TS]

  solid and it is awesome and to be clear it works with smart see course I [TS]

  wouldn't do without it [TS]

  that's what I thought just wanna make sure now I have to have to face the [TS]

  other issues of having streaming in the app so there there are certain options [TS]

  that it needs things like you know what do you do when a new episode comes into [TS]

  you [TS]

  market for streaming or do you [TS]

  downloaded automatically there has to be some choice there has to be sure like [TS]

  what do you do if you're playing a playlist and the episode ends and the [TS]

  next episode is a streaming episode but you are offline what do you do no matter [TS]

  what you pick your gonna gonna anger some people and you're gonna play some [TS]

  people and it's really hard to know a lot of times ahead of time which one of [TS]

  those sides come out ahead so it [TS]

  the question I have now is should I permit cellular data usage for his right [TS]

  now I have cellular downloads and so in a world where you at that you have mixed [TS]

  streaming and downloads now you have to have a little more control over that so [TS]

  it's it's questionable so no question that the thing that I agree on no [TS]

  question is that cellular data not only will be allowed for streaming but it [TS]

  will be allowed by default and will be on by default because in the world we [TS]

  live in today I think people widely expect things to just work when you tap [TS]

  them and lots of other media app stream by default over cellular and don't ask [TS]

  you first things like YouTube or most of the streaming music services although I [TS]

  think Apple music does not think they've they asked you first but anyway [TS]

  almost all media streaming apps they will just do it if you if you say play [TS]

  this video and you're on cellular in your phone it will just do it over [TS]

  cellular animal and that's fine you know so no question streaming has to be there [TS]

  and it has to be enabled by default over over cellular the problem is there are [TS]

  lots of these tweets 20 everybody thinks that they have the most advanced world [TS]

  view on this issue and so and of course I'm the stupid Americans I don't know [TS]

  what the rest of the road is like so I have heard from about equal numbers [TS]

  today [TS]

  of people saying both in my country we have very bad data plans are you have to [TS]

  have restrictions and the rest of the world works this way and therefore you [TS]

  to have very strong restrictions and I've also heard from other people saying [TS]

  well in my country everybody has unlimited data and that's that's the [TS]

  world we live in now and so you don't need to even bother with this [TS]

  I've heard both ends of a lot but right now I have to cellular options in the ad [TS]

  and I wish I could get away with just one but right now I have to say that the [TS]

  big one the main one is whether I allow background or foreground and whatever [TS]

  when the app downloads full episodes ahead of time already getting [TS]

  notification or whatever when it that would split the serbs do you down the [TS]

  whole thing over cellular or dua for wifi so that is an option and I think [TS]

  that option is good that that deserves to stick around because if you can [TS]

  street and you say I play this right now has an action you're taking your [TS]

  deliberately saying play this episode right now and I i recognizing them [TS]

  playing a podcast while my phone on its own network this might use data [TS]

  you know but if you background download things that just come in like you know [TS]

  overnight somebody could blow their data cap if released by their favorite [TS]

  podcast you know maybe to feed messes up and they'd release like 10 new episodes [TS]

  accidentally in the phone downloads 10 things over cellular without them even [TS]

  knowing initiating it so it makes sense to differentiate between automatic [TS]

  background downloads using it and things that you initiate the user for playback [TS]

  using it so that makes sense you should have an option to disable cellular on [TS]

  background that's fine but then there's an iOS annoyance that I have its I [TS]

  consider it a bug I'm not sure that Apple does for every app that you have [TS]

  on your phone that uses data at all you can go into settings and you can turn [TS]

  off cellular data usage for the appt at the at the iOS level so the app doesn't [TS]

  have to have an option for that you can just go on the disabled and many people [TS]

  do for unlimited plans who really need to watch they're they're so the problem [TS]

  is in previous versions of iOS you've always had this this so-called reach [TS]

  ability API it actually has a long CFO network whatever name but it's short and [TS]

  everyone says the reachability API and this is the API the can notify you of [TS]

  changes in Internet connectivity so that you can for instance your app can know [TS]

  whether the connections offline and when it goes back online and you can also [TS]

  tell whether it's online via cellular or wi-fi or neither [TS]

  right so [TS]

  you can make a whole bunch of intelligent decisions and it isn't [TS]

  perfect sometimes it isn't that reliable but it's pretty close its pretty good [TS]

  most the time in previous versions before iOS eight if somebody turned off [TS]

  that cellular option for you in system settings so that they say this Afghan [TS]

  you sold it anymore [TS]

  your app would see when an API and I online the system would say no you're [TS]

  offline so the app [TS]

  couldn't help us which was on it just seemed like it was offline and so if the [TS]

  app tried something it would show that our knowing dialog box that everyone has [TS]

  seen that says cellular data is disabled for appname you you can enable it in [TS]

  settings and there's no way for a nap to initiate a network connection that does [TS]

  not show that box so there's no way that I can say like I'm gonna do a background [TS]

  sync here if it fails the user doesn't even need to know doesn't matter it's [TS]

  not it's not important or download some artwork for the show that's showing in [TS]

  the stable cell if that fails it doesn't matter either just you know you don't [TS]

  have to alert the user with a modal dialog box saying so they don't offer me [TS]

  downloading artwork to show a table so doesn't matter that smart thing to do as [TS]

  a developer in that case was too before you do something optional that the user [TS]

  didn't really initiate you know something like a background check reach [TS]

  ability and if it says it's offline don't even try and then that dialogue [TS]

  will never show up because if you don't do that every time somebody goes to your [TS]

  appetite for us to do background sync and they've disabled cell data for your [TS]

  appt the connection bodily failed but also that box in Illinois the crap out [TS]

  of them and so then they will write you saying why does your app keeps showing [TS]

  this box if they don't know if it's a system box you have any control over so [TS]

  that's that's bad anyway with iOS ate there is what I consider a bug which is [TS]

  if someone has disabled cellular data for your app in iOS settings reach [TS]

  ability API will tell you that you are online it will not say you're offline [TS]

  anymore so that you have no way to tell whether you are online unrestricted or [TS]

  whether you are online but was celebrated disabled and so [TS]

  you can't avoid making those requests and you also still can't make a request [TS]

  that's marked as some kind of option also doesn't get a dialog box so [TS]

  therefore if someone disables that for your appt and you try to make connection [TS]

  it will shut up box every time or at least like you know once every 10 [TS]

  minutes or whatever the intent of throwing on citizenship and constantly [TS]

  but it still shows them enough that it annoys people in the email so in order [TS]

  to the 22 work around this slightly I I had to add the second option called sync [TS]

  over cellular that's it picky details [TS]

  settings level is very very other options and the reason why this is there [TS]

  is not to let people save data because it doesn't say that Makita its to let [TS]

  people avoid that dialog box if they disabled cell data from my whole apt [TS]

  because it with that if you trigger that option then I won't even attempt to make [TS]

  those connections over cellular because again I can't distinguish between [TS]

  cellular the time allowed to use and so and so they're not allowed these so that [TS]

  setting that's what that whole thing is for it to work around this giant bug in [TS]

  iOS aid that i think is still there in nineteen you know how to do some tests [TS]

  maybe I really hoping I fixed it but I don't think it did but I'll double check [TS]

  before next weekend before next week's show and report back because if if that [TS]

  fixes I can remove option and that that we also anyway for the look very long [TS]

  winded thing here anyway so now faced with the question of of adding streaming [TS]

  to dissident and having spent of solar controller streaming do I have 3 [TS]

  cellular data options that's terrible I have to give me a whole separate screen [TS]

  for them and explain its I mean I will if I have to but that sounds terrible or [TS]

  my best idea so far is to keep the two options I have now and just attack [TS]

  streaming to the second one so that the background download still separately [TS]

  controllable is that something I can see somebody wanting to do background [TS]

  download only when their MiFi but be willing to stream wherever they are they [TS]

  actually asked for it the second option rather than calling it sink over [TS]

  cellular rename it to stream and sync over cellular [TS]

  that makes sense that this is very long very boring this is that although that [TS]

  does make sense I would probably agree with you that think over cellular could [TS]

  becomes stream in sync over study where I know it's interesting because I have [TS]

  an unlimited data plan from AT&T my iphone have gotten grandfathered in and [TS]

  I'm never had a terribly compelling reason reason to walk away from it I [TS]

  know that I could probably save a few bucks a month if I didn't keep it [TS]

  anymore but whatever it is what it is however on my iPad as I've said numerous [TS]

  times in the past I have the 300 makes a month from t-mobile and that's typically [TS]

  how I use cellular on my iPad if I'm going to use it at all and occasionally [TS]

  all on vacation for example actually pay for a few gigs for that month or [TS]

  whatever but generally speaking I just live on the 220 a month and so I have [TS]

  gone in on my iPad and turned off cellular data at the Iowa State level [TS]

  pretty much everywhere and I can assure you that if I saw that dialog all the [TS]

  time when using overcast are driving not so I think you need to stick around with [TS]

  Nikki detailed version and I see no reason not to put sink in their excuse [TS]

  me a stream in there especially since anytime you're streaming from what I [TS]

  have gathered from you any single time you're streaming like you've said a [TS]

  couple times it's based on user action so at that point I should know what I'm [TS]

  doing and I should know no matter how advanced user I am if I'm trying to play [TS]

  a podcast that is not on my device it's gonna have to come from somewhere and if [TS]

  I'm not on wifi if I'm not on the fan jokingly called around these parts then [TS]

  I know that it's gonna have to go via cellular and I should be able to figure [TS]

  that out so I think you've got the right approach medicare is here with john has [TS]

  failed and there is one little complexity that you said as long as [TS]

  you're streaming and you always shows that there are scenarios in which you [TS]

  can unexpectedly Street [TS]

  condition well [TS]

  so for instance suppose you are on a trip that you know suppose you have it [TS]

  set to the new episodes come in in streaming basically you disable auto [TS]

  download right so the new episodes coming in March for streaming on me that [TS]

  they're not automatically download it by default [TS]

  ok so you have it set that way you will listen to a playlist and you've [TS]

  downloaded everything on the playlist anyway cuz you're gonna go somewhere and [TS]

  so you like a lot of want to burn on my data trips on a download everything in [TS]

  advance while you're listening to something and the screen is off a new [TS]

  episode comes in its march for streaming by default and it's inserted right after [TS]

  the thing you're listening to [TS]

  so as you're listening the the episode the two ends it starts up the next [TS]

  episode which is a streaming-only episode so it is possible for seeming to [TS]

  happen to you [TS]

  somewhat unexpectedly it's not going to be the common case but it is possible so [TS]

  like the web it just happens to read exactly so you see there there are a lot [TS]

  of the complexities like a lot of people said you guys probably dialog asking [TS]

  people to approve streaming when you're on sailor have an option to that the [TS]

  problem is lots of times when when I have to make that decision [TS]

  the display of the phone is office in somebody's pocket or in somebody's doc [TS]

  somewhere on in a car in their house and lot of times when you're driving really [TS]

  I really shouldn't be asking people to interact with the UI that's dangerous or [TS]

  you know you or your like exercising and it's in your pocket and you you know [TS]

  it's there's all these situations where I have to make a decision without asking [TS]

  the user with a dialog box so I I think the way to do it is to just have it is [TS]

  to just never prompt the user for this decision just have a setting that you [TS]

  can change either on or off and John what do you have to say about this and [TS]

  he talked about all these settings makes me think that like the key point here is [TS]

  not the wrong account of little toggle switches you have in your settings I [TS]

  know this sort of you know combinatorial explosion of [TS]

  possibility bugs of giving the counter under control is a good first [TS]

  approximation of how you should keep from going crazy but for the cellular [TS]

  stuff setting aside the bugs which you know what can you do just follow the [TS]

  radars and keep your fingers crossed the settings did come to mind when you're [TS]

  describing all the functionality that I can imagine users feeling comfortable in [TS]

  the way of conceptualizing is somewhere in the settings screen there's going to [TS]

  be a list of their split into wifi and cellular just do celular like wi-fi as a [TS]

  disabling wifi here the things I want this out to be a lot to do in cellular [TS]

  as justice it's a fairly long list of things to say yes to that noted that yes [TS]

  then they get increasingly specific about them you could start for the [TS]

  future and that's when I hear like stream in sync over cellular to see a [TS]

  cellular section what amounted to oversell you download new episodes [TS]

  stream episodes that have asked you to stream and download stream episodes they [TS]

  come in while this new Potter know what the options are you can you can go [TS]

  through all the possibilities than just because I think that's a lot of options [TS]

  and it's like who wants to answer these questions you can accomplish some set of [TS]

  the false do you think are appropriate for most people don't someone go to [TS]

  settings I can imagine I'm going down list going yes no no yes and if you want [TS]

  to help them you can't even put like average of X number of megabytes over [TS]

  the past month which party will help them initially he can't be populated [TS]

  areas you don't know what do you suggest that you click here for everybody but [TS]

  after months of usage they can go down that list and sell it was using all my [TS]

  cell didn't like I want overcast to you know the only guests like what things I [TS]

  don't understand is just a couple of Dayton you can see over the past month [TS]

  because you allowed to download new episodes over cellular its use this [TS]

  amount of data right and then they can you know it's just a bunch of us going [TS]

  gets no no no yes no I feel like six seven eight nine and ten options in that [TS]

  type of thing isn't crazy especially look at the actual iOS settings means [TS]

  they're just a wall tiles which is that people are ok go on who can use location [TS]

  did not you unite uuu [TS]

  at you like I think that's a reasonable interaction even though it seems really [TS]

  complicated if you're going to have this complexity anyway because you've got all [TS]

  these conditions in the hood like when do I do so when do I do that and you're [TS]

  gonna pick defaults for them just throw in the switches buried in a section if [TS]

  it makes you feel better but I think that is actually the most [TS]

  straightforward way as long as you sort of organized these fleets of switches [TS]

  into logical groups then people feel like they're you know that each one [TS]

  because like this topic the topic is not yet rated like this is what overcast [TS]

  allowed to do over your cell connection like anyone there in that frame of mind [TS]

  I feel like they're in the mode to go down those questions and just sort of [TS]

  you know give Yes or Nothe rather than just going down it listed options at [TS]

  having to reach one and see what topic is what is it discussing whether the [TS]

  decision not to make me go to the next one which is entirely unrelated to this [TS]

  one talking about what is it discussing you know whatever I don't know why I [TS]

  maybe I haven't thought of all the options but of all the ones you listen [TS]

  so far Mike those are all reasonable things that people could conceivably [TS]

  want settings for but I think there's no way to to express that in the UI without [TS]

  that really big long list of options are going to try to combine them into a [TS]

  single line enemy gets confusing because it's less clear what's going on you're [TS]

  like people might want different options for the two things you combine into one [TS]

  of your settings we'll end there's there's more complexity to it than that [TS]

  look like it it isn't as simple as do i have you know combating to do I have a [TS]

  whole bunch of settings and a big long list is one of the biggest problems is [TS]

  it with a big long list there is a cost to having that in the app in in that [TS]

  like people will see that screen it will confuse them and it will give them the [TS]

  general impression that either this app is too complex for my taste or I don't [TS]

  understand this and therefore I don't feel good about it and it's you know [TS]

  people to be made to feel don't be confused by your burying it you buried [TS]

  in the advanced turn it picky or whatever section like I don't think [TS]

  anyone's gonna go to Settings period unless the app doesn't do it by default [TS]

  so it's all about picking the good to discuss thank you have a good handle on [TS]

  what the reasonable defaults are you just want to have a go to section [TS]

  them and someone gets in tonight mobile they feel like this happens doing [TS]

  something that I don't that's why I mentioned the sizes on the things [TS]

  because what they really want is stop using so much of my data and just a [TS]

  bunch of switches or even one or two options even if just two options which [TS]

  one of those if I change will make it use less of my data that's why stats on [TS]

  like because this thing has been enabled we have downloaded this number of things [TS]

  over your cell connection over this period of time so and even if just to [TS]

  settings and two numbers and ok well that's the one that using my dad is on [TS]

  internet one friend and I probably its stature tricky because I don't know if I [TS]

  can really guarantee them like like I think it'd be hard to measure total [TS]

  bytes used accurately there's there's things like redirects and header sizes [TS]

  and everything that like you know I have to go very low level in the API is to be [TS]

  able to actually count all of those accurately so like I wouldn't I want I [TS]

  don't really want to be in the game of being incredibly specific is also [TS]

  there's there's some degree of liability there you know maybe not sure legally [TS]

  wouldn't cause any problems with it might anger people like if I if I say [TS]

  something that is wrong so if I say for instance like if I had been the app age [TS]

  a big target says all cell data off I don't offer that because I can't [TS]

  guarantee that my Apple use no soda the iOS at the system level option can I [TS]

  can't because there are things like wk web you and a WebView the tries to load [TS]

  images I can't prevent that from hitting the cell network easily I can't [TS]

  guarantee that my Apple use noted so that's why I don't offer that option [TS]

  also I don't I don't show the file sizes of the podcasts before their downloaded [TS]

  a lot of people request this is the big problem that is it really busy at work [TS]

  we're doing it had requested the files for you downloaded and like right before [TS]

  you download it to really get to really get it accurately [TS]

  there is a field for in feed for people to specify that we do in our feed but [TS]

  that is manually entered by a human being so it is unreliable and is often [TS]

  absent the only way to do it is to head request and I could do this herbicide [TS]

  for every single thing that's that's complicated and that's also kinda [TS]

  unreliable in one of the server [TS]

  you know what if one of these things block me that every port 0 for [TS]

  everything what if my information is out of date rape the first crawl media is [TS]

  just one megabyte because they uploaded on the part of the file and then you go [TS]

  to download it in two hours later and it's a hundred magazine then you're [TS]

  angry at me as I said only one mag there's like there's all these like we [TS]

  are complex edge cases that I don't want to make a promise I can't keep them low [TS]

  medium high percentages I'm trying to just be conceptualized this whole so do [TS]

  their thing from user's perspective what they're concerned about is you know they [TS]

  can get the idea from the settings thing of which apps are using most of my data [TS]

  like Apple provide that but then if they find out okay overcast is a big consumer [TS]

  things described a lot of podcasts and the settings that says it does a lot I [TS]

  like podcast I don't want to uninstall overcast I want to continue to listen to [TS]

  the band now I have to go into overcast so how can I make overcast use less they [TS]

  had another the big giants which is no cell data at all they're going into over [TS]

  gas but the mission in the mission is figure out what the thing is I have to [TS]

  flip to make it uses less data and the state you know I'm just anything to [TS]

  guide them in terms of which one of these options will have the most effect [TS]

  rather than relying up you agree with descriptions and understanding which one [TS]

  is bigger you know it can't get size in megabytes maybe you can give percentages [TS]

  maybe give though medium-high I don't know I just that that's on traffic but [TS]

  like rather than worry about the people who like super picking want to control [TS]

  every aspect of it happened wanna like be able to write their own code to make [TS]

  decisions on each decision point muscle just wanna know how to make the abused [TS]

  less data and and no you know what the consequences are like it's you know the [TS]

  option says here's some sort of raiding for if I were to turn off how much I [TS]

  might I say if and I'll make that decision understand because I turned [TS]

  that off now I won't get that [TS]

  more for myself it is it is a hard problem that I'm just trying to simplify [TS]

  it in two ways one changing the way you think about it but terms like was the [TS]

  golden goal is to use less data like sizes or ratings or something like that [TS]

  have to be in there and then to the other extreme is you know just introduce [TS]

  the topic you give a big fleet of things that can go and then people just go down [TS]

  the list and go on and like that sync over cellular thing I've never even seen [TS]

  that option so I don't like I'm trying to get my usage anything ever been to [TS]

  the overcast skies may be too busy to happen to pick the DePaul center right [TS]

  maybe because I'm always on wifi but yeah people who write you in two to [TS]

  complain about cell usage they may be noisy but I don't think most of your job [TS]

  as a good defaulting to get the worry less about the intimidation that we're [TS]

  setting screens I don't think maybe visited maybe all the other problem is [TS]

  this is this is what I affectionately called a power user problem that if you [TS]

  give people settings they will use them and then they will forget that they use [TS]

  them and then the app will behave differently from the default because [TS]

  they change settings in they forgot they change them and then they will write in [TS]

  or complaint on Twitter or complaining public that my app is not working [TS]

  properly because of his heading they change it happens all the time with the [TS]

  playback setting where in the playback effects pain thing I have an option that [TS]

  most people consider called continuous play and i title it when this episode [TS]

  ends and the bottom two buttons play next [TS]

  or stop and I thought this was very clear many people when they're poking [TS]

  around in the options they will toggle that then they will forget to talk about [TS]

  it and they were right in saying my abused to get automatic the next episode [TS]

  and now it doesn't what happened to the bug and everything I had to explain its [TS]

  this is kinda like a you know blowing the power cord kind of solution it's [TS]

  like i don't want to embarrass them in my response to be very gentle like how I [TS]

  say this but it's just a bad it's about very funny because if you give people [TS]

  settings they will use them many of them will forget about it or use them badly [TS]

  they don't understand and then the Apple break them regardless of what it does to [TS]

  to me america station it makes the app sucks for them so that's also why are [TS]

  they happy when when you gently lead them to the option like oh my problem is [TS]

  solved I found a setting + little toggle switch and I feel like it turns around [TS]

  on them at that point where it's like I thought that this app that I used to [TS]

  like was room for me forever but really all you need to do is tap little toggle [TS]

  switch yes but a lot of times as sheep are not writing in this is all these [TS]

  video is indicative of like well if these five people on Twitter so this [TS]

  happen to them and they didn't understand that's why it happened [TS]

  think of how many people there are didn't get in touch with me who just [TS]

  thought the appt was broken why do people like to understand why someone [TS]

  would want would turn that off all their wandering through settings or why they [TS]

  do on increasing age and I also never seen this I don't even know I guess the [TS]

  defaults to go to the next track mind john you are you are responsible power [TS]

  user you are the power user that developers wish all power users alike [TS]

  but unfortunately that's not the case and there are so many people who like if [TS]

  you give them away to customize or change something they will and they will [TS]

  always demand more of those things and then they will become support problems [TS]

  for you you know I don't go to settings I just launched the apt to figure out [TS]

  it's because it's not a gear icon of the hell is this we've been through this [TS]

  before no one ever go to settings and hidden that's that was one of those [TS]

  things like I said when I get away with not here I gone and it can to give [TS]

  senator from the settings that maybe maybe that's why maybe you know regular [TS]

  people are so confused by everything because everything is horrible that you [TS]

  know they'll push anything and I think about it power users look for a year and [TS]

  they don't see you soon [TS]

  that's perfect maybe they should make sense of it squirm out of the way when [TS]

  you try to tap it was not a thing on Windows can't do proximity detection [TS]

  wait for the iPad that has a stylus support than proximity detection from my [TS]

  iPad users totally hey I'm one of them so I present before we leave this topic [TS]

  may be mentioned this in and I blanked but why not just have one universal [TS]

  can I do this can I do anything on cellular yessir now because I can't [TS]

  enforce that basically because that's why it's like I said earlier like it [TS]

  like a WebView four sho notesLoading image do you know there's there's stuff [TS]

  that is very hard to enforce like well you could rephrase it you know can I can [TS]

  i download any podcast related materials over so that's okay that's still a week [TS]

  driving out like you can wordsmith it to get the wording right de just think that [TS]

  that would that's not granular not for your average user [TS]

  well I think you know people who want the apt to literally you zero in which [TS]

  case they have to use the Iowa system to which they probably already have even [TS]

  looking in the app is that most apps don't have this option will just do it [TS]

  and you know it's up to you as the user to minimize the usage or to go into [TS]

  settings and disable it so if somebody wants to literally use no data they will [TS]

  use the system paying for that I think some data every app that syncs with the [TS]

  web or do or you know get status or info from the web like you're on you're [TS]

  losing you know a few hundred kilobytes here and there at all these apps and you [TS]

  know you have to you not care about that level of usage if you're gonna have said [TS]

  that enabled for anything so I some some data usage is fine but again I don't [TS]

  want to make a promise that I can't really keep and especially with [TS]

  something like this where like making a mistake here because people money since [TS]

  the tough thing for sure but before we move on to start the show with mister [TS]

  probably tell us about something that's cool I agree so this week we have back [TS]

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  all courses ly and da dot com slash ATP thanks let's lynda.com response on our [TS]

  show once again highly recommend the right so now that we're what thirty [TS]

  forty minutes in let's hear what you've done here in this free fall out there [TS]

  just broken the show a complicated format really straightforward all those [TS]

  all those years of follow-up and just like that just like that I'm sorry some [TS]

  men just like to see the world burn [TS]

  that's a reference to think that's actually watch the world burn [TS]

  that's ok like Nero or just learned about the cowbell SNL skit today so [TS]

  coming down so when this happens when I wanted to myself here [TS]

  tip said she makes made like the cabin fever joke and I knew there was a joke [TS]

  about more capital and I wasn't quite sure it was from so I said oh is that [TS]

  from spinal tap and turns out no but I at least knew that the joke was about [TS]

  having more cowbell in that Blue Oyster Cult song that is it's it's something [TS]

  you heard about but didn't know like the original that's correct that's what [TS]

  we're getting out that it's not it's not whether you get references that you [TS]

  haven't actually experienced the original piece of media from pop culture [TS]

  i just i cant believe you didn't recognize that quote from Dark Knight [TS]

  now I know John feels with me i've seen that God anyway so we should probably [TS]

  correct or incorrect statements about half life like the third week in a row [TS]

  life just keeps coming into the real one is out for the Mac has been for a long [TS]

  time not just the source port but the plain old acrylic and original half-life [TS]

  so how's life is completely and fully available for the Mac I can play this [TS]

  game can when I was like 16 and were talking about it still kinda like Halo [TS]

  also completely available for the Mac too little too late [TS]

  the original Halo is on that's that's where I played the Atlanta I played on [TS]

  the [TS]

  what I genuinely didn't know that I thought I assumed it was always Xbox [TS]

  phone email you cause I knew there was like a history like bungee was making it [TS]

  a magnet Microsoft bought them and they can I guess you guys are in an apple [TS]

  circles when they were they be hella trailer shown to Macworld whatever that [TS]

  was now I can somehow do but anyway on stage look at this amazing new game [TS]

  coming from a guy I don't talk about it hurts too much to talk about [TS]

  yeah alright so thank you christiane for that correction this is from Hunter [TS]

  mentioned last week about time and resources where your app doesn't come [TS]

  with a bunch of stuff i can download them on demand and you could say respect [TS]

  that I when you build your application which resources won't be bundled with [TS]

  the application but can be downloaded by the application at any point that I [TS]

  mentioned that didn't seem like there was enough of you I hope to give a good [TS]

  user experience the hunter says that the fundamental resource API does support [TS]

  and as progress tracking progress and display it to the user so that's nice [TS]

  although you think you have bad games that have like 500 mega levels that [TS]

  download levels over cellular yes know what the right answer there probably [TS]

  know but then they're playing a game and a car ride and get to the next level the [TS]

  only thing you really do is say sorry you can't put the next level because you [TS]

  have downloaded blah blah blah blah blah goes in changes in terms of use all his [TS]

  parents or just wait for the next half an hour in the car for 500 make the [TS]

  level download way travel anyway or any game that uses they get so many one-star [TS]

  reviews from people having this problem that it stopped using it now but I think [TS]

  it's still a good option is it a bit breaking up into smaller chunks you know [TS]

  like instead of hopefully no levels 500 megs but games like three gigs and they [TS]

  have [TS]

  a small number of levels each one's got to be pretty big anyway helping [TS]

  developers figured this out I kinda like the the ps4 thing where if you download [TS]

  a game you can start playing it before the game is entirely down wanting to [TS]

  just download the early parts of the game [TS]

  sooner it takes a long time to download but it's nice that you don't wait for [TS]

  the whole thing to download because you're not going to run it by playing at [TS]

  some of these games take a certain minimum amount of time to get there [TS]

  especially when you're playing for the first time they just let you start [TS]

  playing as soon as you've got like the first 10 hours worth levels or something [TS]

  about time you grind two dozen if you're an expert in the game the rest will be [TS]

  downloaded or so they hope it is working out well saying someone's gonna [TS]

  implement that I do think it's interesting also that like there seems [TS]

  on the iOS App Store there seems to be no correlation between games size and [TS]

  commercial success [TS]

  ok think about it [TS]

  menu often [TS]

  everyone else crazier I am you expect there to be like you expected begins to [TS]

  more successful yeah I'm kinda saying like maybe it's not worth making game so [TS]

  big it really depends on the type of game I guess you're making a puzzle game [TS]

  how big it possibly be right i mean how they talk about having no assets how big [TS]

  is letterpress another demographics and entire game they're just like the launch [TS]

  icon right but other types of games like if you're making a 3d game there's going [TS]

  to be geometry is gonna be textures and like there's no getting around that and [TS]

  it's gonna be much bigger than a game of the static screen and I don't know I [TS]

  don't think people have the same expectations of mobile games but I think [TS]

  genre plays into big things are in and art style if you do things with texture [TS]

  mapping Texas take up room if you do everything with flat shading you just [TS]

  have geometry then you know I think it's reasonable a small platform like this [TS]

  desert golf not be enough for anybody he thought that game so much it's really [TS]

  good I haven't played that since Alto came out I realized so I still haven't [TS]

  installed but I'm I'm stuck it whenever yeah me too I'm not stuck stuck and I [TS]

  played I will continue but it like it's not about making progress but I don't [TS]

  uninstall because I'm afraid that if I deleted I lose my progress I don't know [TS]

  if that's actually true but I'm afraid it is yeah I've never played it pretty [TS]

  happy about that [TS]

  get out this adventure it's better game I haven't had a few weeks old ever [TS]

  played it disagree you think those adventures better than desert golfing I [TS]

  think everyone else thinks it is but I don't think it is [TS]

  this is why do you as a gamer in a nut shell game that game in a desert with [TS]

  the ball at all I can handle they're both good gains [TS]

  excellent games but I got a lot more time golfing just because of like the [TS]

  kind of like then commentary qualities I got out of it [TS]

  where Alto is a great game but once I played lake to one plane flight and then [TS]

  I was like alright well every time I play this game it's basically the same [TS]

  thing over and over again and I know doesn't coughing is similar but I didn't [TS]

  get any depth about it was cool for like the one day I was playing it a lot but I [TS]

  try playing it here and there afterwards and I just like I just felt too [TS]

  repetitive to me you don't have any competitive juices flowing without was [TS]

  all about later meeting with yourself trying to best your previous best run or [TS]

  competing with other people whereas there's no company competitive aspect [TS]

  and that's what makes demagoguing so great is that it really shows you how [TS]

  pointless everything else in the universe's this is a man whose wife [TS]

  plays all console games in hard mode by the way yesterday could not be more [TS]

  correct she is the gamer I am totally not she's not she's playing prison [TS]

  architect now thank the CGP grey that sounds awful and it looks like the [TS]

  hospital you know like it's it's one of those kinda games like you know it's [TS]

  basically same prison if I was like more of a game right now I would probably [TS]

  play it too is it looks pretty cool I just don't i cant you know I'm doing [TS]

  great with work stuff with with overcast with the show and everything else and [TS]

  unlike the last thing I wanna do is take time playing games I don't whenever the [TS]

  opportunity comes up to spend time doing something I'd rather work than play [TS]

  games and can you tell everybody exactly what level you're under golfing so they [TS]

  can be mad at some context your statement says it's been awhile they [TS]

  played it so I gotta take the matter doesn't want to spend too much time [TS]

  playing games available [TS]

  have been stuck on this one for a long time that's 3054 holes people yeah I [TS]

  think we've solved that I haven't seen Prison architect but in so clearly I'm [TS]

  unqualified to talk about it with that said let me talk about it it sounds like [TS]

  so much more can I stop doing work like that it seemed tower like some towers [TS]

  when I pretty much stopped doing work for games I remember vividly trying [TS]

  World of Warcraft Warcraft when it was relatively new and all I did was run [TS]

  around killing like bars or something like that [TS]

  in I lasted two hours before I decided I'm just doing work this isn'ta game [TS]

  this is just me doing work for the architect is more like Transport Tycoon [TS]

  then wow yeah it is more like the building's games but even even [TS]

  I love Transport Tycoon I haven't played it in probably five years [TS]

  oh yeah I haven't played it more than that because like an open TTD is awesome [TS]

  like it's it was such a fantastic read implementation of the game engine an [TS]

  added so much stuff and it's fantastic time to it like you know 2007 2008 kind [TS]

  of error but again I just I had like there's never a time when I want to [TS]

  spend hours and hours and hours playing games instead of producing some [TS]

  something that I that I want to working on it that's just me just like it's hot [TS]

  it's what motivates me right now and maybe that will change over time I'm [TS]

  sure it'll be different once my kids old enough to to enjoy games I want to do [TS]

  with him but for now I just don't care about gains over 3,000 holes people over [TS]

  he doesn't want to spend a lot of time playing games and much rather be doing [TS]

  something else that was that was almost a meditation for me because you're lucky [TS]

  that game does not have a count of hours played incited no it doesn't mean I know [TS]

  it took like eight thousand strokes [TS]

  i mean that that can figure somebody like you know I love each one takes a [TS]

  few seconds or whatever but you know so obviously I know a lot of time there but [TS]

  how much to spend on Twitter it's way more than that then we have a show that [TS]

  is the whole count winner we don't even know background color change known up [TS]

  then no rocks my cactus in sight [TS]

  I don't even know what kind of things just seen today at three or three [TS]

  thousand [TS]

  this show has been I had no idea when we started before follow-up Dr doing things [TS]

  before follow-up that that would really take this entire show right off the bat [TS]

  an idea [TS]

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  the control panel is the best domain controller neither used and i've i've [TS]

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  for you because Valley transfer service that I don't know anyone else who offers [TS]

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  hover for spots on our show little bit more follow-up john tells about such an [TS]

  umbrella now I'm saving for next week [TS]

  done with follow-up really shows out of control it was an hour in a really only [TS]

  an hour and we're done with follow-up boy wonder what made that takes on a [TS]

  must be too much follow-up [TS]

  god I'm staying out of this so are we talking about the end of tech doctors at [TS]

  all so if not for right now I think of the prefix on I'll fix it so the three [TS]

  of us in the Senate next week end of tick tock which kinda makes it sound [TS]

  like Tik Tok is ending next week I could be this is the end of the computer age [TS]

  it was welcomed to the end [TS]

  we we might as well to stop the show now because we're all out of control [TS]

  to do w computer [TS]

  John try to bring us back if you please and tell us about tick tock of white [TS]

  sandy I know the one hundred and put in the Genesis partners forget it [TS]

  intel has its strategy that they called Tik Tok where they they make a new [TS]

  microarchitecture and then the next round of chips they offer for sale is [TS]

  screwed up already [TS]

  2007 intel has been operating on a staggered release schedule that [TS]

  alternates manufacturing process shrinks sticks with major micro architectural [TS]

  changes talks [TS]

  me know which is which sometimes they just do a shrink that would be at stake [TS]

  and sometimes they they they changed the microarchitecture thats attack all right [TS]

  there you have it [TS]

  how long the voice of reason between the three of us what is going on I can they [TS]

  picked a bad name is the point of the alternate and some of this has been sort [TS]

  of regular schedule what it meant that every other round of chips you would get [TS]

  a new process you have 32 nanometer chips and those that of the region enemy [TS]

  ships and I had to go to the next size smaller but 2828 to this kind of 22 [TS]

  anyway we've had 40 nanometer chips for two generations now and so in theory the [TS]

  next round of chips should be there next process eyes which is supposed to be 10 [TS]

  but intel's basically said the next round ships will not be 10 then and [TS]

  there will be a third round of 40 nanometer chips basically a bigger than [TS]

  10 men manufacturing processes not ready so bland also it's worth pointing out [TS]

  that the fourteen in me to process it is just barely coming online now [TS]

  like it it was also look at that whatever wednesday was the probable a [TS]

  much of that or any although much of that was the process the process of [TS]

  being so delayed and so they had a huge delay just trying to get this and it was [TS]

  a bit about a yearly or year and a half lead right yeah it so this is like [TS]

  getting out ahead of the next on by saying [TS]

  not gonna do it we did it go kind of on schedule but things are kind of late in [TS]

  the cum out of whatever it's like look just 10 nanometers is not going to be [TS]

  ready but we're also not going to you know delay having a new line of chips [TS]

  but we are going to make one more rounded tips on 40 nanometers and they [TS]

  had to come up with a new name for them greatly during the names these things [TS]

  it's gonna be sky lake and then it was followed by Canon lake so in between [TS]

  them the third line 40 nanometers things is going to be kab while a candy wanna [TS]

  take a swing at that he be advanced over baby cabey I'm sure it's probably Kb [TS]

  anyway that's what they're going to call the third round of 40 nanometer chips [TS]

  which is pretty weird as we discussed on previous shows Moore's law can continue [TS]

  forever because there as far as modern science knows there is the minimum size [TS]

  that things can be we're always trying to smash them up into smaller and [TS]

  smaller pieces find out what can be smaller but the rules but exchange in [TS]

  crazy ways when you get really small so we were not going to double the number [TS]

  of things we can fit in a unit of space every 18 months [TS]

  forever and ever this is not mean the end of more than just a slow down I [TS]

  think I'm fine with that I like the fact that Intel's owning up to this rather [TS]

  than just saying might be a little bit late cause then it just you know they're [TS]

  digging into shifting a whole year over and i'm glad that they're going to do [TS]

  another round of 40 nanometer chips rather than just delaying forever and [TS]

  ever until 10 nanometers ready so well but I mean they basically did that with [TS]

  has well known as bad weather yet well I'm using one right now if if you bought [TS]

  a Mac in the last couple of years you've gotten has well unless you bought one of [TS]

  the 2015 provisions of only the retina MacBook 13 the MacBook Air or the [TS]

  network won the 15 still using as well [TS]

  the iMac still has well these the Mac Pro is using the pentium pro I mean it's [TS]

  like [TS]

  everything is is delayed an old because this one was so so delayed like 240 [TS]

  mister delayed and so what Intel did in the last in the last year and a half [TS]

  while Broadwell is being delayed they released a kind of like 1.5 version of [TS]

  has well you know it's the same core but they just like give us like higher being [TS]

  higher clock parts just a kind of Titus over and over their partners like Apple [TS]

  they're trying to sell computers around these things and trying to make bad [TS]

  decisions on these things that's why I'm using a forged her computer right now [TS]

  because I have heard that it probably I'm sure Apple's margins on the forehead [TS]

  gigahertz chips are not that great is the various bidding annual issues that [TS]

  are typical business but they had to give us some kind of minor increase like [TS]

  our ticket we think we have reached the clocks as much as we can without sharing [TS]

  the process and we'll do something given give people something new to tide them [TS]

  over while we work out our next revisions delays so they already did a [TS]

  third division kind of with as well so what they're basically saying here is [TS]

  that this is going to happen again this time workers warning you in advance and [TS]

  giving it a new name and I don't think much is known about the new line of [TS]

  chips like will it just be like you said just you know that higher bend versions [TS]

  of those things that maybe a couple of little errors sticks in them or [TS]

  something or will it be you know with a bunt the GPU is actually be a [TS]

  significant new line of chips [TS]

  seems like that by giving it a new name and new Lake name that it's not just [TS]

  going to be like I 1.5 but it's certainly not going to be a new [TS]

  architecture a talk radio architecture I guess they're saving that for its [TS]

  confusing [TS]

  like the relationship between Intel roadmap and when Apple releases in some [TS]

  ways it seems like it's tied tightly together like oh that became really some [TS]

  scenes because the Intel doesn't have the chips ready but in other respects [TS]

  they're totally unrelated see the Mac Pro well no that's not entirely true the [TS]

  Mac Pro is very belated but it's really too busy on road map I know but they are [TS]

  behind an entire year on the on ships they are but the last revision of the [TS]

  ions was a little bit questionable [TS]

  the problem is that I saw but looking at like you know what you would do with [TS]

  chips on the Xeon Intel sells most of these things in service and the server [TS]

  business is very different from the desktop workstation business at the Mac [TS]

  Pro sets in and on servers what you really know what you generally what the [TS]

  market demands is more and more cores even if each coarseness fast and so [TS]

  that's why you have most of the online up the ones at least the high ones that [TS]

  sell nicely and have a nice profit margins and have all the PCI Express [TS]

  Lanes everything most of those optimized for core count and have a clock speed of [TS]

  like two girls you know that's it you're getting like relatively low clock speeds [TS]

  have very high score counts the Mac Pro its users of a very small number of [TS]

  these chips it offers 344 them and they're they're like the highest clock [TS]

  version they can get addicts core count basically without blowing thermals seems [TS]

  when they moved from the previous ones [TS]

  pictures anybody P I think into has really happy when he came out sorry for [TS]

  the generation that they've skipped they really was not much of a game to be had [TS]

  in the areas that the Mac Pro actually sells chips from like in those parts it [TS]

  really was it was like they the the core counts went up slightly like you got a [TS]

  ten core and like a 14 or so they were they were like a small core count of [TS]

  great but like all the clock speeds went down or hit the same and power was a [TS]

  little bit weird so it was it was not a great update and so that might have been [TS]

  why Apple seemingly hasn't and seemingly won't use those I don't know but it also [TS]

  you know the Mac Pro also has kept generations before this won't be the [TS]

  first time and so it might also just be partly that that that it wasn't a major [TS]

  upgrade from Intel and partly Apple doesn't care that strongly about [TS]

  upgrading these on the basis of my good old days when a new jet came out [TS]

  everybody voted in their machines because you had to be there was [TS]

  competitive pressure to and for the most part that was a pretty good thing even [TS]

  if these are not a big upgrade over the old ones especially on things like the [TS]

  Mac Pro Mark Morris who cares but like thats [TS]

  that what people are buying this for like that the Super parallel test where [TS]

  extra Corazon be significant difference of all the machines that are actually [TS]

  gonna care that you have you know 12 vs 10 chorus the Mac Pro is the one the [TS]

  tips are saying they didn't have any good GPU option so that would bump the [TS]

  CPU at the GPO but anyway [TS]

  historically is not like the play the game and they're like well let me have [TS]

  an impressive new machine or not just gonna give you new CPUs except I guess [TS]

  and the laptops where they'll do that as well 1.5 I don't know oh yeah I mean [TS]

  they they i don't i don't know if they've ever skipped bail at a major [TS]

  laptop CPU generation until now where they at where they appear to be skipping [TS]

  quad-core broad wells and going to slightly but I did and this is a weird [TS]

  situation with timing of those things I don't think it ever skip one before that [TS]

  so what does this mean if hypothetically you have two copies I think it's a late [TS]

  2011 high res antiglare 15 inch MacBook Pro and there is not a singular there's [TS]

  not one retina Mac in your entire household into thinking you're gonna [TS]

  hold on for the next major MacBook Pro provision or shouldn't say major but you [TS]

  know the next big chips at last I heard that was theoretically coming this fall [TS]

  does any of this change that [TS]

  know is that what they're saying is that the generation of chips that were moving [TS]

  into the 40 nanometer like this is this is what started with Broadwell this past [TS]

  spring with the MacBook one and in the air and then later on the 13 that [TS]

  generation is the 14 nanometer one and that's like we're just in the infancy of [TS]

  that there are going to be a fourteen for a while just fine parently you know [TS]

  a big deal gets nice power savings like I don't think it's the end of the world [TS]

  and it's not you know if you're waiting for a new line of [TS]

  max the Bible as colic max come out they ought to be pretty nice machines so [TS]

  that's not a big deal is just the next year and the year after I don't know [TS]

  what the the strategy is for me it's just going to be three years of 40 [TS]

  nanometer chips well I mean we've had what two and a half years of as well and [TS]

  you know it it hasn't been great but we've been we've been kind of stalled [TS]

  performance for a long time but they're still good chips I mean like this I'm at [TS]

  this this for gigahertz for core iMac dad is amazing [TS]

  like it is by far the best computer I've ever owned and by far and it's one of [TS]

  the fastest I I did briefly have these six core so under Mac Pro and that was [TS]

  that was faster in parallel tasks but this actually beaten single threaded [TS]

  another problem is the online has that the consumer desktop chips because there [TS]

  are newer in their in their core revision usually be the Mac Pro Z Hons [TS]

  in single-threaded tasks which is embarrassing for the Metro anyway I [TS]

  don't think this is going to be that bad of a thing I think it's going to be [TS]

  really just a continuation of what we've seen for the last few years just now [TS]

  again now they're just making it official now they're admitting up front [TS]

  and warning us up front [TS]

  ok this is what's going to happen again and we know we'll see what we can do [TS]

  about it on a final note I should point out lest my father the XIB Mr give me [TS]

  hell about it that IBM is actually at seven nanometers is that right but [TS]

  really it was demoing it's like a tech demo cost is no object for shipping [TS]

  millions of those things every every quarter I agree I agree but I just [TS]

  wanted to point it out because obviously other people are making progress in this [TS]

  arena but but just like you both said I mean that's not producing millions of [TS]

  them that's making one in a lab at great expense with a very exotic materials is [TS]

  that what you're using expensive stuff in summary it's going to be expenses [TS]

  well now it's the same like I remember back in the days they had similar type [TS]

  of things companies that would say we can make a chip-in amazing speed is like [TS]

  one gigahertz are two years back down but like you know we were at 309 yards [TS]

  wow how can you make something that we use these exotic materials and just you [TS]

  could do lots of things for enough money he can't if it's going to cost $10,000 [TS]

  projector whatever they do make a difference [TS]

  not viable you have to make it into something that could be manufactured [TS]

  cheaply and then then you've got them that's that's the whole thing like [TS]

  they're going to do a shrink and some of the cost of all the chips are good at [TS]

  triple the first computer magazine issue I ever bought from a newsstand had a [TS]

  cover those advertising a hundred megahertz is this is a big deal in 1993 [TS]

  or something and it was it was a DEC Alpha chip that had been announced the [TS]

  words as their disappointed to learn that I vividly remember having a really [TS]

  intense argument with my not all relative of mine who was in college at [TS]

  the time and I was in like middle school or something like that and he had if [TS]

  memory serves he had I wanna say it was like a gigabyte of storage across [TS]

  probably like six hard drives as it was that long ago and I remember arguing [TS]

  with him there is no possible way [TS]

  a human being could use a gigabyte of storage it's just not possible and what [TS]

  could you possibly put over a gigabyte of storage is better than you were [TS]

  certainly no pages Word documents it wasn't it wasn't like anything big it [TS]

  was like now like his podcast that downloading as well but yeah it's [TS]

  worthwhile how things change in any case what it still is but one last thing [TS]

  that's awesome and then we have one more thing to talk about I found a bunch of [TS]

  this week is mail route one skin mail route a mail route dotnet / ATP you've [TS]

  heard from me over the years that I don't use Gmail I use regular I'm a [TS]

  posts because I don't like proprietary you know systems and I don't like [TS]

  webmail and I just want something that will work with the with regular mail [TS]

  apps that I can get them anywhere on any platform meant to be tied to [TS]

  to you know somebody's web interface I don't like it or somebody terrible I'm [TS]

  at Gateway gmail so anyway and one of the problems when you when you try to [TS]

  host male somewhere other than gmail somewhere else or try to host it [TS]

  yourself if you're on your own server or if you have a business yet you have to [TS]

  administer their email server one of the big problems with doing this is spam [TS]

  filtering spam filtering is so complex these days it's so advanced that really [TS]

  doing it right [TS]

  requires a dedicated service that specializes in that and cloud servers [TS]

  that can combine wisdom from all sorts of things and not just be like one [TS]

  installation like a simple busy until there is not enough these days so mail [TS]

  route is a professional spam and virus filtering service so what you do is you [TS]

  point your domain MX record at them so they become your official email host to [TS]

  the world then you give them the address of your real MX record your real server [TS]

  and so they act as a proxy as a middleman between the internet and you [TS]

  end a shield you from all the crap people try to send you that's spam [TS]

  viruses I admit when I first heard about it I was skeptical I thought you know [TS]

  how well could it really were compared to the customizable spam filtering and [TS]

  stuff the fastball had that I was beautiful you for that and it works so [TS]

  well that I when I was using other things I would still gets bad I get you [TS]

  know maybe three to five spam messages a day and I thought that was about as good [TS]

  as it can get really and then switch to my retina maybe six months ago something [TS]

  like that it is so good that I had received one span message one day last [TS]

  week and that was noteworthy because I just haven't seen one in weeks or months [TS]

  like Mel ready so good you literally go from whatever management getting you go [TS]

  20 most of the time like it it becomes a very rare occurrence to C span Africa [TS]

  delivered to your Inbox [TS]

  it is that good and it isn't so aggressive that they're constantly [TS]

  throwing away legitimate mail either anything that's kind of on the border [TS]

  we're not quite sure if it's Pam they put in the quarantine section for like a [TS]

  week or two or something and then they email you a summary of just like the [TS]

  just the subject lines of those things and you can you can just give a quick [TS]

  little glanced down that list every day every week [TS]

  and you can see are you know that one that was legitimate let that through all [TS]

  the recipes forget about it so it's very very easy to make sure you don't have [TS]

  false positives for too long and to train it not to do that anymore for [TS]

  whatever whatever the case may be things that you get emails for but the spam [TS]

  filtering is just shockingly good it is so could I I don't think I will ever go [TS]

  without it now it is I i can very very highly recommended [TS]

  over the years I recommended people go to Annapolis I recommend his fastball [TS]

  obviously I will say now I very very highly recommend putting mail route in [TS]

  front of your I'm a post it is really good and from what I hear from Gmail [TS]

  people it sounds like it's actually better than Gmail spam filtering and a [TS]

  lot of people think it can't get better but if you if you're ever seeing spam [TS]

  it can get better that's basically it so it really is amazing I very highly [TS]

  recommend mail route if you have your own domain name or email or if you have [TS]

  your own opposed to put your mail trust me it is that good they're not paying me [TS]

  to say that they're paying me to say the subscript mostly ignoring them telling [TS]

  me better which is I use it and I love it and I can tell you first hand it [TS]

  works for me nobody can buy me saying that I'm tell you that because it's true [TS]

  anyway that's their script go to mail route dotnet / ATP for a free trial and [TS]

  if you use that link / ATP you will also get 10% off for the lifetime of your [TS]

  account [TS]

  not 10% off your first purchase not 10% off one's 10% off for the last time of [TS]

  your account that is awesome thanks let them out now route now / ATP so lately [TS]

  there's been a humongous kerfuffle with read it I have to admit I don't really [TS]

  ever use reddit I think I may have mentioned in a show on the show in the [TS]

  past I don't know if I never made it to the final version but the only time I [TS]

  ever really is read it was when I needed to acquire things after one of my [TS]

  favorite websites got shut down and I used read it here in there for that but [TS]

  I don't use it for discussions are really anything else [TS]

  and I guess there was a real big there's a lot of OJ with regard to their now act [TS]

  CEO Alan powers that right and i cant pass judgment as to whether or not she [TS]

  was good at her job because I i dont really use read it but it seemed like a [TS]

  lot of people came out of the woodwork to try to get her out of the CEO [TS]

  position and it seemed like from an outsider's perspective the whole of [TS]

  Reddit tried to find out of out of the charity will and the only real concrete [TS]

  information I've gotten about this is from hello internet and I just listened [TS]

  to actually see you there latest episode of Lincoln show notes where they talk [TS]

  about this and she peak rate seems to be a pretty big red is a pretty big fan [TS]

  whereas Brady Haran the other hosts seems to have a much more similar [TS]

  perspective to myself or I should say I have some more similar suspected to him [TS]

  in that it all seems really gross to me from the outside and it all seems like [TS]

  it seems like a kind of crummy corner the internet but I'm probably judging [TS]

  unfairly because I'm only hearing about the promised parts of this corner of the [TS]

  internet so I don't know John do you have any thoughts on this [TS]

  I do I think it's worth explaining what you read it is broadly speaking because [TS]

  people don't use it like I don't think the name tells you anything about it you [TS]

  can and you could get confused about what goes on there it is in the grand [TS]

  scheme of things it's it's a website where people go to have a little [TS]

  communities you make a subreddit about whatever topic you are interested in [TS]

  talking about and their people can shellings with each other and they can [TS]

  comment on the links and they can also vote on each other's comments they [TS]

  basically what it boils down to you probably heard about the sites about [TS]

  like this where you can make a little sub community you have it you have an [TS]

  account [TS]

  you can share information with each other and links in comments and then the [TS]

  things that you share that people can comment on an everyone gets to vote on [TS]

  the things that you say and it seems like it well whatever you know we've had [TS]

  web bulletin boards we had you know dig and hacker news like a million other [TS]

  sites that are like this credit is one of those sites it was one of the one [TS]

  that it kind of caught on its very large very popular there are some credits for [TS]

  everything you could possibly imagine [TS]

  technologies to cats alligators to knitting to everything you can imagine [TS]

  it seems like you know everything is like whatever it's it's time to act on [TS]

  them now I'm not sure there are made money they have difficult trying to [TS]

  comfort them on and station better but they got a tremendous amount of traffic [TS]

  at the place where people go everything else about it like it's sort of a [TS]

  problems of their own making [TS]

  because if the setting aside how do you make money like we talked about that [TS]

  today I value got a lot of traffic get out of the use you got a lot of eyeballs [TS]

  or whatever figure out how to monetize them like that the decision ready to [TS]

  face with his decision to many sites that are very popular faced with an [TS]

  almost every second thing go ahead and make better decisions about this because [TS]

  since anyone tell me make an account to make a little subgroup or whatever about [TS]

  whatever topic they want do you have some kind of policy terms and conditions [TS]

  Code of Conduct something saying what are you allowed to do and say and what [TS]

  kind of groups are you allowed to happen this site and I i for the life of me I [TS]

  can't think of another website that doesn't have something like that [TS]

  certainly Twitter does and Twitter you know we have complained about the [TS]

  harassment or stuff like that leads to have a policy right red its big thing [TS]

  was like no man free speech anybody can come here and make a subreddit about [TS]

  anything and like we should be allowed to say we're like any moment in time [TS]

  when some free speech on the internet just died I don't think I've seen an [TS]

  example of it being correct maybe they don't hang out on constitutional law [TS]

  boards maybe what people really mean is I'm allowed to say whatever I want on [TS]

  someone else's website because free speech right so read it the people who [TS]

  run red it fancy themselves as like we're not just a website [TS]

  we are the internet and we are completely neutral and even know where [TS]

  privately-held company that pays money to someone to run our servers and pays [TS]

  employees to write the software for them and doesn't really we are just a giant [TS]

  level playing field for everybody to come and and therefore we don't want to [TS]

  have pretty much any controls over what you're allowed to do what you're allowed [TS]

  to say what kind of groups here ought to have all everything is well all people [TS]

  all ideas all behavior as long as I guess you don't have to us in industry [TS]

  or something like that would be bad but I think down that like you just using [TS]

  our site you are typing words into a box and clicking buttons anything to do with [TS]

  a ok with us and a lot of the controversy with the new CEO came in [TS]

  because she decided that some things are not okay they were gonna have some sort [TS]

  of barriers and rules about oh ok well you can't just type anywhere you want to [TS]

  this box you can have communities surrounding anything you want because we [TS]

  don't want we don't want you those type of people using our website we don't [TS]

  want them to be part of our clinical community and in case I go it seems like [TS]

  a key place whenever there is no reddit community brenda's gigantic credit has [TS]

  people upset with cute cat pictures right and then read it has people who [TS]

  were just you know showing pictures and that people to make fun of them or [TS]

  whatever or like racist bulletin boards or you know like every possible while I [TS]

  do you can imagine the ideas like oh this is this is a place where we can go [TS]

  and we're allowed to use these people have outside and put our information in [TS]

  their database servers and send requested their web servers and it's all [TS]

  free speech man we can do what everyone and credit trying to add some kind of [TS]

  controls like ok with certain things we don't want to be on something to [TS]

  reddit.com like a certain things we don't want so if you wanna do that go [TS]

  someplace else and do it the reddit community such as it is like the people [TS]

  who believe in free speech like you can't stop us from putting words into [TS]

  your servers that's our that's our birthright read it is about free speech [TS]

  and it's just so depressing to me to see and by the way they're backsliding on [TS]

  that [TS]

  nothing like that that's the euro is gone and new person in here I don't know [TS]

  this but the new person is actually one of the early people in matters like [TS]

  actually want once you've got to be do anything you want except for these very [TS]

  few things we narrowly defined as being bad I don't understand what it was the [TS]

  sort of the mental barrier here is the people running the site to putting their [TS]

  foot down and saying just okay and this is not they they somehow feel like by [TS]

  doing that they're crushing freedom under the they're they're jack-booted [TS]

  like you just run reddit.com it's a website on the internet when people type [TS]

  words into boxes and put them into the server database servers that you run [TS]

  like that is not that doesn't define free speech so I find it incredibly [TS]

  frustrating to see like the oldest posturing and all this anger also [TS]

  misdirected and the only thing up in the show is about this is a two tweets from [TS]

  Lori boss but I think that I think sum up this this entire thing she says that [TS]

  the tragedy of on community spaces is that the goals and inclusive and safe [TS]

  are at the extreme mutually exclusive goals so much as I like do you wanna [TS]

  have a place where everybody is welcome [TS]

  we are inclusive site anyone come to read it and you can make a subreddit [TS]

  like it's good to include parent like this right we don't we don't tell you [TS]

  can't come here because your eyes of the wrong color or because you're speak [TS]

  their own language are you know you're into the wrong you like dog instead of [TS]

  cats inclusive site right but also say 42 safe me right next to it at some [TS]

  point you have to exclude someone you get to pick if it's the people feeling [TS]

  unsafe for the people making him feel unsafe so at some point you have to [TS]

  exclude somebody beat everybody can people come in and do terrible things to [TS]

  you have to a certain point exclude somebody who you want to exclude you [TS]

  want to people who don't don't feel safe because there's a bulletin board about [TS]

  how to rape women and that kind of makes that women on reddit not feel very good [TS]

  and you know they are somehow associated with the same website where this morning [TS]

  this or do you want to do people who are making the let me tell you how to read [TS]

  women subreddit you wanna make them leave you have to exclude somebody [TS]

  because you let everybody in some people are not going to feel safe or [TS]

  comfortable or a welcome in this community these two tweets basically [TS]

  summon up and incredibly everything I read anything from these people they [TS]

  make the decision like what we really [TS]

  want is for the people to be able to make the reports like not the specific [TS]

  example that I know they've been whatever like people some people are [TS]

  made to feel uncomfortable by what pretty much anyone would say is vile [TS]

  terrible ideas and behavior and it's like well they need to be allowed to do [TS]

  that because we are the government of the united states and we must allow them [TS]

  the freedom to put their words and our database servers there for free speech [TS]

  sorry I just gotta let him do that it's just it it boggles my mind and makes me [TS]

  angry infraction mostly because there is a lot of good stuff on read it because [TS]

  again the people who make the cute cat pictures epic she's really cute they're [TS]

  not bothering anybody and the thing is i guess i graph somewhere trying to show [TS]

  like the overlap between the various boards there is some surprising overlap [TS]

  but it sometimes not so surprising you know how many people are member of the [TS]

  white supremacy board but also a member of the cute cat pictures bar ok members [TS]

  of the white supremacy Board and members of the men's rights book and he starts a [TS]

  little more members of gamer gate and members of the young nazis of America [TS]

  board that is not a hundred percent over that but i dont I would love to see a [TS]

  graph of like the cat people really just kept people or so many people of cats [TS]

  that equal number of neo-nazism in the cat boards as are in every other board I [TS]

  don't know anyway I think that that is a ridiculous thing that the people running [TS]

  read it can't seem to get a handle on the idea that if they get to choose what [TS]

  kind of people get to put words into their database everything seemed [TS]

  incapable of making any sort of common sense decision but what should be [TS]

  allowed to happen on red or maybe they just totally for like there may be the [TS]

  anarchist maybe to say we want to run a bunch of stories and we want to let [TS]

  everyone see anything go for it and like there you go that's that's when you know [TS]

  that's why people keep talking like the downfall of red and everything because I [TS]

  think most people who use read it had an idea that the people who ran read it had [TS]

  similar standards then about what is and isn't sort of decent unacceptable and [TS]

  the people around reddit wanna let everybody do everything the rest of the [TS]

  people have to think I'm just gonna slowly fade away because [TS]

  known to be associated with the site like that like a very small number its [TS]

  gonna turn into you know for channel reach and write like if if you let [TS]

  everybody in immensely everybody leaves at some of the most terrible people and [TS]

  congratulations you know read it you are running a site filled with the most [TS]

  terrible people feel free to do that feel free to let them open text boxes to [TS]

  each other [TS]

  hope you feel good about the news site you built because that's what you're [TS]

  effectively creating by on anybody do everything I don't have much to say on [TS]

  on read it because I don't know anything about read it and every time I have [TS]

  visited it for something either try to find information on something are [TS]

  following a link there every visit to it has made me never want to visit again [TS]

  I'm not exaggerating every time like this is terrible wide appeal and I know [TS]

  like academically I know there are good parts of it I've never stumbled upon [TS]

  those really never in a good ask me anything [TS]

  thing those are usually really hard to navigate the first of all I hate message [TS]

  comments like that and I was an old form nerd back in the day so I know the whole [TS]

  I know the problems with both with both netted comments and also flat threads [TS]

  they both have dysfunction two different dysfunction so you know I am very [TS]

  familiar with the challenges in both the community monitoring and regulation and [TS]

  also the technical side of how community software online how how how this [TS]

  community style thing is built and how things are enforced it's it's a very [TS]

  hard problem not to mention my time at tumblr we saw a lot of things not quite [TS]

  the same level as well as dealing with but a lot of kind of related problems of [TS]

  things like you know like every every couple days we get a phone call from [TS]

  high school principal or like some kind of like you know middle of nowhere [TS]

  police department or something complaining about something that some [TS]

  kids how about some other kid on Tumblr and wanting to get down like when you [TS]

  have to deal with stuff like that when your community site it's dealing with [TS]

  community stuff is just really messy it's it's very difficult and it's very [TS]

  very messy from the reason you said John [TS]

  like there's a lot of these decisions that there is no good option you choose [TS]

  between two bad options and a lot of things like like i staying with my cell [TS]

  download stuff earlier like a lot of things like you know you you just have [TS]

  to pick lesser of two evils and no matter what you pay its gonna have big [TS]

  downside for someone or a disincentive eyes good stuff or identify the bad [TS]

  stuff but we're not like we're not even at the hard questions like they're the [TS]

  type of things like am I allowed to threaten to rape somebody on Reddit [TS]

  reddit CEOs like wow wow it technically it's not a threat of violence we're not [TS]

  talking about the people get into a heated argument and should they be [TS]

  allowed to college of the jerks in my ad hominem attacks are not allowed like [TS]

  that's in the gray areas difficult to figure out of whatever talk about just [TS]

  like Blake you no racism sexism real threats and violence and just and series [TS]

  like the city the new CEO is like on the board gone respond to people not sure of [TS]

  that cut you're not sure that's that's what that's the kind of community again [TS]

  I'm not saying he shouldn't be allowed to do this feel free to make this kind [TS]

  of community but if you like waffles tough decisions boy should we allow rape [TS]

  threats or is that against I guess we have to allow don't want that guy speech [TS]

  to be impinge because government of the United States of America [TS]

  well and and I think first of all we should definitely say that last episode [TS]

  of Helen Internet and the last two episodes of rocket covered this probably [TS]

  way better than we can cause those are people to know a lot more credit than we [TS]

  do and so they they really did a very good job of that [TS]

  listen to those who want more of the inside stuff about like you know what [TS]

  the what specific challenges that the CEO of Reddit faces and you know why on [TS]

  how might have been good or bad for that you know anyway but it seems like you [TS]

  know one of the big pressures they have now is business they they they they make [TS]

  some money and they have it they have this they had this corporate owner and [TS]

  they have a board of directors and they want more money because the money they [TS]

  make is not really commensurate with the amount of traffic they get it they [TS]

  should be making a lot more is this what you would do [TS]

  make more money like it to go mainstream like that that's the thing like so let [TS]

  me tell you a story for my path on the boring [TS]

  the reason it is actually about the same coffee shop at the last longer if we go [TS]

  to my hometown cuppa joe in Bexley Ohio [TS]

  they why was that they had a big problem where middle schoolers discovered it and [TS]

  so it was always packed full of like a 12 year olds who were just kind of [TS]

  loitering around hardly buying anything but just taking up all the seats and [TS]

  hang on outside and standing around smoking and it was just not a great [TS]

  scene and and they drove other customers away because who wants to hang out [TS]

  around a bunch of dealing with middle schoolers who are bored and loitering [TS]

  and not doing anything and smoking and so one summer they banned them I don't [TS]

  know how doesn't matter how they banned all the middle schoolers they implement [TS]

  some kind of like me makes me with a parent or whatever doesn't matter [TS]

  somehow they banned them and for a while the place was empty and I knew the [TS]

  manager of the time and ask him like you know how was going and he said they were [TS]

  making more money than ever because you know even though it wasn't getting the [TS]

  volume and got before it was getting more of the profitable customers the [TS]

  older people to college students are studying in buying buying drinks all day [TS]

  the people who work would come in the morning and come in the evenings who you [TS]

  know just buying stuff and leaving and making you know cycling the tables more [TS]

  often not putting off other people when they when they come in there and I don't [TS]

  know how to resolve that I left but they [TS]

  I was very surprised at the time and looking back on it shouldn't be that [TS]

  worked so well for them and you know read it I think faces not that different [TS]

  of the dilemma here where it's like if they want to become more mainstream if [TS]

  they want to become more attractive to advertisers and therefore more [TS]

  profitable if they want their value of their assets to go up if they want the [TS]

  number of advertisers to go up I think they have to get rid of all this garbage [TS]

  they have to get rid of all this like you know anarchy / libertarian free [TS]

  speech [TS]

  crazy people who are really just aggressive hateful people for a lot of [TS]

  them like it or not not all the obviously but many of them are these [TS]

  just very aggressive hateful people who feel entitled to have their words all [TS]

  over the place I think you can't you can't have it both ways you can't have [TS]

  that garbage on your site that is highly offensive legally questionable you know [TS]

  no advertising want to be associated with that and also make more money with [TS]

  advertising leaky you have to take one of the other and it seems like they're [TS]

  trying to hide this the most objectionable stuff like ok lot of [TS]

  people are offended by this bubble like we won't run ads against its over [TS]

  technically not making money off of the valujet subsidizing with the other stuff [TS]

  and we'll put it off in the corner and they'll stay by themselves and like why [TS]

  why you bending over backwards to make sure these people have a place to share [TS]

  hey nevermind like that it's not just over just let me put their words into [TS]

  our database like if you want to go out to like the the sort of secondary [TS]

  effects of allowing a place for people to reinforce each other's hateful ideas [TS]

  and recruit new people and I go no incitement to violence against the Red [TS]

  guidelines yeah I'm sure that will work exactly as intended when you get a bunch [TS]

  of people talking to each other constantly over and over again in [TS]

  sharing people pictures and videos and all sorts of terrible things there I'm [TS]

  sure nothing bad will come out of that it'll just be positive like as long as [TS]

  this they would need terms this means no it's so ridiculous and so it so asinine [TS]

  and again that's the site they want to run go for it but if their job is to [TS]

  make money for like for their parent company this is not the way to do it and [TS]

  using your middle school coffee shop example it's as if at a certain point [TS]

  all the nine middle schoolers left at all that was left was middle school [TS]

  students and you realize by now we have to cater to them because there are only [TS]

  customers like they're not at this point but like if you suddenly turning to well [TS]

  I guess we have to become a dance club or something right because it read it is [TS]

  not at that point not even close to but like if you just keep going down this [TS]

  path I think I feel like the regular people will leave and you'll just be [TS]

  left with like we are a community of hate speech bulletin boards because [TS]

  these people have no place else to go with its like a chance you know fortune [TS]

  to a lesser extent yeah that's not the kind of business you want to run is not [TS]

  that's not a growth market that's not a lot of people without a spending power [TS]

  money wanna go mainstream and it just seems like the CEO is trying to preserve [TS]

  like this ideal we provide a forum for people to openly share ideas and I admit [TS]

  that that's sort of a high-minded ideals of read it but the consequences of it [TS]

  are not going to be good for credits bottom line or for the popularity of [TS]

  read it or read reputation or for his reputation anything really just seems [TS]

  like all downside and again go ahead you know if that's what the company wants to [TS]

  do feel free to pursue that path but I don't see it turning into anything good [TS]

  for anyone involved so this probably doesn't mean anything for the purpose of [TS]

  our discussion and I probably shouldn't take as a sign of me being right or [TS]

  wrong about this but the coffee shop closed last fall [TS]

  shops closed all the time I know they sound at the building in Marin sold to [TS]

  get knocked down but somewhere like it that's part of the whole idea of the of [TS]

  the sort of someone who cherish that there really is eradicated I think [TS]

  there's this is a stereotype of a typical Reddit user that's perhaps [TS]

  somewhat a trip I think there are a lot of people like all three of us who don't [TS]

  go to read it and let someone links to it and then we link to it we look at the [TS]

  funny cat gifts and then we move on with our lives right like but we reddit users [TS]

  are a part of the community and we're not part of the community but we thought [TS]

  you know it's a popular site people linked you to it you end up there you [TS]

  look at something and then you go someplace else I think a lot of that [TS]

  traffic is from things like that I don't know maybe they know the breakdown if [TS]

  most of the traffic comes from people just posting hate each other and [TS]

  re-enter getting a big arguments and 17 level indented comment thread attached [TS]

  to things maybe that is where their stuff comes from just it just seems to [TS]

  me it's a bad decision I think less of the people who run read it every time I [TS]

  hear one of the decisions are see them in the side of the satellite largely [TS]

  nuanced discussions as they tried to to parse what should and shouldn't be [TS]

  acceptable behavior and read it and just revealed themselves have no [TS]

  understanding [TS]

  of other people's experiences and you know it's late and I'm sure that all the [TS]

  specific examples I said in this podcast are not accurate feel free to wander [TS]

  ready yourself and try to find out what these people's opinions are but every [TS]

  time I see anything from them as I go to read it and see these discussions with [TS]

  it with the [TS]

  the new leadership behind read it I just think I I was excited when the power [TS]

  came in and started making changes like really straightforward sensible changes [TS]

  get rid of the hate groups and was like I hate groups what do you mean like it's [TS]

  just I don't again I don't know the details I don't know why she was pushed [TS]

  out I know I'm sure she was subject to the same harassment that every woman [TS]

  gets you know Peter Malkin said anything ever let alone is the CEO of a company [TS]

  is in charge of a bunch of little children who are angry about everything [TS]

  especially like that company like I i cant imagine a more hostile well maybe [TS]

  there are some but that's like that was definitely on the on the more hostile [TS]

  side and I don't know if she should you know I have no idea what her she's all I [TS]

  know is that the few things I heard announce come out of her leadership [TS]

  seemed like a good idea and then was a backlash against them I thought the [TS]

  press the button images kicked out I got even more depressed than anything the [TS]

  views of the new CEO is apparently one of the founders this just like they're [TS]

  not getting so anyway [TS]

  read it is read it is really not for me and furthermore I think they've read its [TS]

  goals are to be a place that has it continues to have a lot of traffic and [TS]

  it makes a lot of money that the current strategy they're pursuing doesn't make [TS]

  any sense to me I think the other thing that I find fascinating about all this [TS]

  kind of hinted at earlier is how a group of users of our website can seemingly [TS]

  have so much influence that they can cause the chief executive officer of a [TS]

  company to be fired just missed quit whatever that's just that's just weird [TS]

  to me that even a couple hundred thousand people who I think I'd heard [TS]

  that there were 200,000 signatures on the petition this online petition which [TS]

  isn't even really signatures but whatever [TS]

  that that many people came together to decide to try to oust a CEO man-woman it [TS]

  doesn't matter like that that's just insane to me that that the users of a [TS]

  website none of whom I think you're paying the website any money [TS]

  seem to think that they can have that kind of influence in numbers seem to [TS]

  have that kind of influence and i think a lot of the started if I understand [TS]

  things correctly because I really believe it [TS]

  moderator was just mister something like that I guess the person who did now it's [TS]

  this is kind of like this is a really bad headaches and game in journalism [TS]

  it's like that was not really the reason like that was that was like what ignited [TS]

  a lot of the argument but you know it was really a lot of other pressures I [TS]

  think it sounds like but you know and and especially like you know it was even [TS]

  that is just like the King journalism das Lied even that official story line [TS]

  is questionable because she didn't fire that moderator the mail co-founder did I [TS]

  didn't realize that yeah this whole thing is a mess anyway at getting into [TS]

  detail of it is just readily able you know there's no there's no good to come [TS]

  of diving into details of it because that's not really what the argument was [TS]

  about and what it comes down to is if if a whole bunch of users were were calling [TS]

  for someone's head and that resulted in her getting what I call quick fired she [TS]

  was forced to quit it was not him i think im just done now coincidentally [TS]

  this week [TS]

  know she was quick fired its cool happen to the best of us but that wouldn't have [TS]

  happened if just some angry users who are you know he thought horrible people [TS]

  it's just they had a problem with her the reason that happened I think you can [TS]

  read into who they appointed instead this other co-founder we've been gone [TS]

  for a while [TS]

  who has these very much like you know libertarian anything goes viewpoints if [TS]

  the board appointed him as the new CEO that means that the members of the board [TS]

  and the people you know who have control and equity in influence the company a [TS]

  good portion of them want this anything-goes attitude to stay [TS]

  it's not enough that a whole bunch of users complained if only these users [TS]

  getting angry and these users are people who are not particularly credible you [TS]

  don't really want to cater to you can help it that would have been enough to [TS]

  get her out this only gave the people in power of motivating reason to get her [TS]

  out now because she was pushing indirection that not the users didn't [TS]

  want that they didn't want that the power holders did not want and they put [TS]

  in a guy who is the complete opposite in the in this area in this area you know [TS]

  they try to keep things team and under controllers be more everything goes so [TS]

  obviously the people who own and control the company wanted to be the other way [TS]

  yeah I think it's the CSA generation ago don't think any details are important [TS]

  it's basically like a vote of no confidence vote of no confidence from [TS]

  the most local users but the opposition thing and apparently a vote of no [TS]

  confidence from the board it just seems like you know you came in you start to [TS]

  make some bold changes but in the end we are not behind you as the board saying [TS]

  anything we do not support your decisions about what you see this [TS]

  through and we're changing course and you're out right when it comes down to [TS]

  is like it's up to you if you're going to be the leader of a company you [TS]

  actually have to have absolute power in which case you can weather any storm and [TS]

  do what you want to do or if there are people who are bosses of you and they [TS]

  from their perspective they don't have confidence that the changes you're going [TS]

  to make a good and they're hearing a lot of noise and the users in the users are [TS]

  the most vocal users are are are staying with their actions and their words that [TS]

  they don't like what you doing either you can imagine aboard thats nervous [TS]

  about a company like Kobe had to sting we think it can be good this person [TS]

  comes and makes budget changes then all I hear is a bunch of noise and bad [TS]

  things change course change course and the new course like some people in China [TS]

  are missing this new CEO is going to you know get rid of the bad even more than [TS]

  she could that's possible because it's kind of like you know only nixon can go [TS]

  to China I can read it only a man can make changes because people will only [TS]

  accept the same exact words come out of this guy's mouth there was like oh [TS]

  that's interesting I like to hear margaret is and she says it is I you are [TS]

  destroying our freedom like to go back to the Stanley what kind of community [TS]

  these people want to read it to be [TS]

  who they want to be in this community and and what they wanted to be like what [TS]

  they want to experience already like same thing between two people what do [TS]

  you want to experience it's better to be like this game and said we are terrible [TS]

  about dealing with harassment you want it to be a place where you go and if you [TS]

  are any kind of group that's typically harassed you're going to get her ass and [TS]

  you have no recourse that we're just trying to make that better by having the [TS]

  tools to report people not required I think unfortunately with a condensed [TS]

  matter if you reported someone for harassment you had to inform the person [TS]

  that you were informing on them like was part of the process like they would send [TS]

  them an email saying just so you know the person report you for harassment or [TS]

  something like that was just a crazy setup made by people who didn't [TS]

  understand the dynamics of harassment anyway I guess that credit they can do [TS]

  what they want but when I hear everything I hear coming out of this [TS]

  company so far as making the right now I'm at the point where I'm almost like [TS]

  question whether wanna tap links to what I know is probably good content that all [TS]

  enjoy like the interviews or you know funny cat pictures and stuff like that [TS]

  and now I feel like by tapping this link mi supporting an organization that is [TS]

  trying to you know make a home for people who I think should not have a [TS]

  home for this way I wouldn't give these people home on a website that I ran [TS]

  these people give them on the website of a run just fine but do I want to support [TS]

  that with my clicks and whatever ads are gonna look like tapping that that's [TS]

  that's the point where I am the better I'm I'm thinking that I've never thought [TS]

  that about Twitter maybe it's because I cannot feel like I'm viewing ads and [TS]

  Twitter using a third-party cloud or whatever but at this point with the red [TS]

  links I'm I didn't even know like even though my casual to use its gonna [TS]

  continue to do it [TS]

  blocker three sponsors this week [TS]

  lynda.com of her a mail route will see you next week [TS]

  now this show they didn't even mean to be accidental accidental [TS]

  because it was shown to be a team are cool [TS]

  but no one to Digg and Reddit this show just going to be a long series of [TS]

  Corrections about everything we got wrong about ready that's why I keep [TS]

  trying to pull back to the big dick big picture we're casual users it seems like [TS]

  a place I don't want to hang out yeah every time literally every time I've [TS]

  gone there I've been turned off to it and I've gone to good content but just [TS]

  like put everything I read about it every time I dive into these threats [TS]

  like that screenshot can be real business obviously photoshopped a no go [TS]

  to the actual site and find the actual comment to make this guy this is the guy [TS]

  who's in charge is not like someone impersonating him the site hasn't been [TS]

  hacked [TS]

  like these are the real world that is people's mouths not you know it's not a [TS]

  place I wanna hang out her be associated with a weird but I get really turned off [TS]

  by read it because I know a few people I know certainly many people online these [TS]

  read it anyway handful of people in real life please read it in it's kind of [TS]

  creepy to me how people who take read it really seriously seem to think that in [TS]

  in one of you said this earlier the entirety of the internet happens because [TS]

  of Reddit like anything that's good on the internet it's because of Reddit [TS]

  according to these people and that's just it's almost like a cult and I don't [TS]

  know I don't mean that I'm sure some offended by that I don't mean it to be [TS]

  offensive it's just that's the closest analogy I can think of is that all man [TS]

  you don't understand [TS]

  read it is where the internet happens man its cause of us that's why you know [TS]

  all this cool stuff in your every gift ever been on the internet that's causing [TS]

  us man gives it its just I don't know it's just it's creepy to me and and that [TS]

  I find that to be a real turn off in an admittedly I'm very ignorant when it [TS]

  comes to Reddit like you guys have said they are kinda I'll browse over to [TS]

  something typically I can I am A or nama and then I'll leave and that's that but [TS]

  it just seems so weird and creepy and coldish to me that I've never wanted to [TS]

  invest any real time in it and now with what was there [TS]

  tacit if not explicit supportable these hate groups I just think you not for me [TS]

  there is something to them like the whole of you know you get enough people [TS]

  together her enthusiastic about sharing things with each other and they make [TS]

  these other communities like that is what makes the internet great but you [TS]

  have to realize that when you reach a certain level of popularity you'll like [TS]

  percentage wise you'll never able to get a certain subset of people who exhibit [TS]

  what most of us would consider to be bad behavior that there there abusive to [TS]

  people they do not just things like briefing and trailing they they make [TS]

  that make your site worse and so most sites have at least an attempt to come [TS]

  up especially in this whole thing is a big community accomplished a set of [TS]

  rules to try to contain that and that the thing about ready to psych know our [TS]

  philosophy is we don't that's the whole thing man just anything goes [TS]

  you know anything goes except you can't hack us we don't like that that is but [TS]

  anything else anything goes anywhere is that's how every community dies like [TS]

  that these days you've seen tires groups go south because set of bad people would [TS]

  come in they'd make everyone miserable but you can't stop them from posting in [TS]

  the newsgroup you bad and your kill files but it would just like to meet you [TS]

  know eventually people ok find this group is yours will leave and will start [TS]

  a different group this this belongs to you now you can talk about whatever you [TS]

  want here and we'll go elsewhere and that that i think is the dynamic of you [TS]

  if you have a very popular community you have to have some kind of rules to [TS]

  control things otherwise you'll inevitably only be left with the worst [TS]

  of the worst because there are some set of people who are going to be obnoxious [TS]

  and other people don't want to be around not just people and eventually all [TS]

  you're left with their obnoxious people yeah I mean this this whole this whole [TS]

  mess of what it takes to to maintain a community site and all the garbage you [TS]

  have to deal with as the platform owner like I saw I saw a lot of tumblr I've [TS]

  seen a lot in the past said to have been a part of it is made me never want to [TS]

  make something that includes like hosting user published content ever [TS]

  again [TS]

  and Sunday AM I forget the saying this and do it anyway but they're like some [TS]

  features of overcast that I would I have considered doing related things like me [TS]

  you be cool to me like a podcast CMS and and you know hosts podcast for people [TS]

  like the Tumblr for podcast kind of thing and then i think im at the deal [TS]

  with all this crap well someone's gonna post you know I hate podcast and I gotta [TS]

  go to hear from some police officers and take it down deal with them you know [TS]

  arguing with me and it's like i don't like I don't want to have to deal with [TS]

  any of that it's so much and even simple things like user reviews of of podcasts [TS]

  I never wanna do that for so many reasons and this is one of them but [TS]

  there's so many things like I don't want to have to deal with it it's like the [TS]

  position I take as much like some of the design decision in 10 dough is made with [TS]

  online gameplay it's like to really give people a way to be horrible so you don't [TS]

  have to deal with it that that's generally michael's like just make [TS]

  products that don't involve people publishing stuff on something you own [TS]

  and you have to deal with the ramifications it's hard work and volume [TS]

  wise you got a problem but i just bided buddies if you did like a podcast [TS]

  hosting thing and someone put up like a weekly I love you like no [TS]

  out you you know and why do you get the pic when I want and it's like a slippery [TS]

  slope don't try to put your pie guess I'm Argosy centers you I honestly think [TS]

  that nobody would be like because Marco got rid of the KKK podcast we should not [TS]

  put our podcast on his site because he's obviously it like the whole slippery [TS]

  slope sent to them like most people who like alright well like why would he want [TS]

  that there was you know as I will he was gonna ban that well so you gonna be like [TS]

  Medicare and again I'm a vegetarian bug is really a really afraid of that like I [TS]

  feel like that is your job as someone who starts a run the company to say yes [TS]

  I am imposing my values on the private company that I own like that's yes [TS]

  that's what I'm doing I am NOT bu s government and I don't want vegetarians [TS]

  I can ban them and then they can say don't go to Marcos podcast I guess he [TS]

  banned that vegetarian podcast and he's a sensor alright well fine then that is [TS]

  up to you [TS]

  Marco decide what are you going to ban [TS]

  honestly they could be badly KK podcast nobody who you care about is going to [TS]

  say well I'm not gonna go to indicate a get well you know then go someplace else [TS]

  i'm not the only private Internet in the world double-storey start your text my [TS]

  database right make your own site [TS]

  go somewhere else like obviously get down to the hard decisions right will [TS]

  give you a staunch Democrat and Republican pod guess they were never oh [TS]

  don't go there you like you you build the community through your decisions if [TS]

  you didn't allow Republican and Democrat ones guess what you have an entire site [TS]

  filled with democrat and left-leaning that nothing you want to build up its [TS]

  not that you made a bad decision if it is [TS]

  graduations you are the world's biggest collector of you know left-leaning [TS]

  political podcast the United States like you design your own community by [TS]

  deciding what you want to live in and what you don't want to let in and not [TS]

  making any decision is a very big decision in and of itself I just don't [TS]

  know it's I find a depressant and the biggest problem is that read it is this [TS]

  big public online community that seems from from the little I know about it it [TS]

  seems to have by design and intentionally incredibly light [TS]

  moderation and I've never seen an online community that had very light to know [TS]

  moderation where that worked out well it just doesn't work if I think they have [TS]

  think that heavy moderation but just within the groups and that you don't [TS]

  like it [TS]

  start your own sub bread and then you can be the moderator and then you get [TS]

  inside the rules like that is that the whole system it's like you can make your [TS]

  own little ball and have every right but then then but then saw the site as a [TS]

  whole [TS]

  doesn't practice heavy heavy moderation is you can just create your own hate [TS]

  area over here that's why that's what people think of it as the internet like [TS]

  oh it's not it's not know who read it is the internet like yeah within your [TS]

  subreddit you can have rules and you can have mom you can say in this post in [TS]

  this suburb only post things in pig latin if you post anything not in pig [TS]

  latin you'll be banned and will put you down like fine whatever you want but [TS]

  it's like to have perfect role but the whole already told me I can't start my [TS]

  own subreddit censorship credit in the internet no [TS]

  like you know in general there is seemingly little to no moderation of the [TS]

  entire community it is yes within subreddit you can moderate but there is [TS]

  the community at large has very little in like you know we seen I saw so many [TS]

  times in the past [TS]

  community at like 11 of my my best online community experiences was that [TS]

  the time I spent on the something awful forums and I i dont sound stupid now to [TS]

  other people but that when I was there I don't know what it's like now but when I [TS]

  was there in the early two thousands very heavily obviously lived there that [TS]

  was my internet it was insanely well run and it was very tightly moderated and [TS]

  there was a payroll to get in and so you didn't have problems of span he didn't [TS]

  have people being total jerks as if they were they get bennett loser 10 bucks if [TS]

  they want to come back and it looks like it was it was incredibly healthy and I [TS]

  know I know it sounds crazy to people who know of something awful like it on a [TS]

  surface level but it was incredibly well learning community because it was [TS]

  because it had very distinct rules and they were enforced very very well most [TS]

  of the time and so you you didn't have this kind of like rush of craziness from [TS]

  the public and just hate everywhere constantly was it was very well run and [TS]

  I was a member of other communities before and after that that were WAY WAY [TS]

  less well-run Twitter being being good example I mean twitter is not quite the [TS]

  same thing but it has many of the same challenges and there are many many [TS]

  problems when when once you start removing layers of moderation and and [TS]

  involvement by moderators and you start committing more more things and having [TS]

  fewer and fewer filters it just it deteriorates very very quickly into all [TS]

  these things that people hate about read it I think they are staked their [TS]

  comments are good example because they are also kind of like we don't want to [TS]

  stop anybody from saying whatever [TS]

  wanna say so on and so forth but they have guidelines it seemed unenforceable [TS]

  they basically have like it don't insult other people like no ad hominem attacks [TS]

  right that's how can you have a border people argue over you know back vs beat [TS]

  PC or argue about Scientology argue about global warming and enforce that [TS]

  it's impossible to force people are gonna call each other jerks right they [TS]

  do with human beings human beings look at things and say is this person just [TS]

  saying something that the only purpose is to put this other person down doesn't [TS]

  add anything to the argument like then you can I mean this is even before they [TS]

  had downloaded like the moderators will come in and moderate a particular [TS]

  comment by a particular person in the neighbors complained about and they [TS]

  would fight over this is a tremendous amount of work but having those people [TS]

  in their constant trying to make those decisions about our are you violating [TS]

  our posting guidelines the posting guidelines [TS]

  just so like it seemingly unenforceable certainly not machine enforceable and [TS]

  people going to make new accounts and so on so forth but they did you know that [TS]

  things are in there one having an account with a lot of posts in and along [TS]

  registration date was seen as something like valuable like you had reputation [TS]

  based on how long you been there and how many posts you made and so on so forth [TS]

  again this evening before voting so people didn't want to abandon their [TS]

  account and start a new one and that meant that essentially be equivalent of [TS]

  Twitter eggs really kind of you know indicator that maybe someone is just [TS]

  here to cause problems if they have like one post and it was they registered [TS]

  their camp today over every account with free like that but just having those [TS]

  moderate is in there trying to do [TS]

  trying and basically because you know how you can place the candidates large [TS]

  but just trying to do it knowing that if you say something too obnoxious like [TS]

  it's kind of like you don't speeding if you go seventy miles an hour maybe fine [TS]

  but if you go three hundred miles an hour someone's gonna find you and stop [TS]

  you eventually right people would end so people get moderated people get banned [TS]

  people make new accounts those new account get banned is the constant [TS]

  battle like I just feel like having people in there trying to do the right [TS]

  thing the right thing according to you know it lets you know what does our [TS]

  second I think is the right thing to do our sector things the right thing to do [TS]

  is to not be insulting to each other that's a mean it's not a vague and not a [TS]

  high bar people can still say some pretty terrible things with them [TS]

  the rules guidelines but let's you know is we're gonna come on and people are [TS]

  going to tell me to kill myself immediately know because that person [TS]

  eventually will get you know that post will disappear and now they have down [TS]

  boating and then that account banned in like there are people fighting on the [TS]

  side of the users so to speak there are there people there trying to moderate [TS]

  and an unsuccessful as it may be it sends a signal about what about the site [TS]

  like the site sort of has a personality and this the personality is this bad [TS]

  thing that most people think it's bad this site also believes is bad and is [TS]

  trying to do something about it was really hard [TS]