The Accidental Tech Podcast

125: A Better Future for Everybody

 

  I sound like crap hasn't still freakin sick yeah I'm currently nursing a throat [TS]

  lozenge or whatever they call her up it's pronounced listening right and [TS]

  bozell [TS]

  that was a reference on to you actually have a significant that one time I miss [TS]

  pronounce the word it was closely anyway I have a question for you to how in the [TS]

  name of Zeus's butthole also reference do you get healthy when you have a child [TS]

  that is waking up in the middle of the night more than occasionally because [TS]

  he's like no wonder we are teaching of sicker whatever how do you ever get [TS]

  healthy if you can't sleep waking up in the middle of the night implies that the [TS]

  rest of the night the baby is sleeping so really you don't have anything to [TS]

  play about justice to this time the night when the baby wakes up at that is [TS]

  significant that tells you that the rest of the night [TS]

  really you have a really good thing baby and you can't complain too much how do [TS]

  you get better that you will eventually it will happen you'll say well to [TS]

  continue at the house keeping all kidding aside for the two of your [TS]

  benefit your for your to benefit and for live listeners if I suddenly go silent [TS]

  in the middle of saying something just give me five to 10 seconds and assume [TS]

  I'm hacking up a long and I'm just muted and just carry on I guess don't carry on [TS]

  just give me a moment and if I really have disappeared assuming that I poured [TS]

  more stuff on there and smack and its dead now don't poor cough syrup on there [TS]

  for many reasons first of all there's no way it would survive that actually work [TS]

  that's probably true it really nothing like believe me I'm an expert in [TS]

  coughing like cough suppressants just don't work like the the only effective [TS]

  ones are like the narcotic ones that just knock you out [TS]

  yeah that's that suppresses your graphics depositors label it's not [TS]

  really thinks the right problem it's like yet shooting you in the head but [TS]

  also stop your call you know it's not maybe not a good idea but you know that [TS]

  would that would do it so you get caught [TS]

  noting that the cough suppressant actually works the only thing that works [TS]

  is that they're fixing the problem isn't always possible or if you're lucky just [TS]

  like [TS]

  sheen sucking please don't make the title change sucking those cough drops [TS]

  but the menthol the traditional default flavor whatever it is not at the weird [TS]

  ones the regular like the brown ones that taste like mental that helps as [TS]

  long as it's in your mouth [TS]

  got it stops working so that's why you have to have if you buy those just go [TS]

  right for the big bag the one that has like 40 instead of 10 go right for the [TS]

  big bag [TS]

  John surged k road in and quoted you in saying that you said the Dr just see [TS]

  blocks it doesn't know about file systems surged wanted to tell us that [TS]

  firmware of modern tribes reaches 1 million lines of code and they do [TS]

  recognize common file systems obviously encryption breaks this but that's not [TS]

  common especially data centers this allows the drive to reorder or delay [TS]

  commit some metadata updates that are recoverable by checking disc in case of [TS]

  failure [TS]

  you would put this in the show notes tell us a little more about this place [TS]

  yeah I'm wondering I'm actually surprised by this because this implies [TS]

  some sort of synergy in the market between the people who sell these drives [TS]

  and machines they're expected to go into the filesystems they're going to use [TS]

  like how can how can any firmware on a drive know about a file system like how [TS]

  does it know what files and even being initialized with how does that [TS]

  communication happen across the various layers of the storage system to say like [TS]

  he just buy one of these mechanisms taking anything for mothers day for [TS]

  whatever and then it knows that it's formatted 64 does everything is actually [TS]

  very interesting and is the type of thing that capitulo capital ATM only [TS]

  Apple can do but hey wait this is nothing to do with Apple iPhone only [TS]

  applicant had this kind of the connection between Harbor and software [TS]

  well family can also happen in the wild and woolly world of what I imagine our [TS]

  Linux servers and random storage hardware so I'm always interested in [TS]

  cases where the supposedly rigid layers in the storage hierarchy are [TS]

  quarter-on-quarter violated as the the claim was about the FSE back in the day [TS]

  it was a rampant layering violation combining the file system in logical [TS]

  volume management and a bunch of other things andrade all into one thing like [TS]

  you know we have this nice layered approach reasoning is responsible for [TS]

  each layer I can mix and match my logical volume manager with my [TS]

  filesystem with my raid thing I give us combine them all to I think great effect [TS]

  by saying if we don't have that mix and match thing kinda like the way I called [TS]

  you know acts are not mix and match for you get to pick your own CPU and beyond [TS]

  the speaker on that and build your own Mac that toppled takes the components of [TS]

  you say my gfs by picking all these different layers and combining them it's [TS]

  a really interesting and cool things that sounds like an interesting cool [TS]

  thing this is the first I've ever heard of this that an SSD drives there that an [TS]

  SSD knows about the file system and I would love to learn more about how that [TS]

  actually happens but they have at least one reported that this is now a thing [TS]

  alright we also had someone writing Ryan Road in apparently Ryan is the 105th [TS]

  driver that listens to the show and he or she was not was wanted to correct us [TS]

  about cameras on the fit in as our resident Honda expert John which I tell [TS]

  him or he was making a joke last time I like toast here is how you know you can [TS]

  make a decent austere for 50 bucks I can just concentrate on the important things [TS]

  the same way that you don't expect a Honda Fit to have the fancy camera that [TS]

  Marcos BMW has been expected to have all the bells and whistles just the basics [TS]

  right like the knob latch on to fit in and the controls on if it still feel [TS]

  like their quality components cheap car apparently I don't this is an optional [TS]

  standard equipment [TS]

  fond of it does have the cameras on the other side on all sides of it I don't [TS]

  know if it does that synergy thing maybe Ryan didn't understand the future that [TS]

  on Marcus car where yes it has cameras on the corners it also combines the [TS]

  cameras to show you as if there's like a virtual camera floating above your car [TS]

  looking down on its you can see what's on all sides of your car and real-time [TS]

  the bird's eye view so I think this is just a bunch of cameras on the car show [TS]

  you like your blind spots and stuff or just cool and everything in it just [TS]

  shows how this this text slowly creeping down and you know that once you have the [TS]

  cameras in place the extra bit of you know smarts to combine them into an [TS]

  image isn't that complicated so it seems like it will eventually trickle down to [TS]

  even the cheapest cars but show that either as standard equipment or possibly [TS]

  optional on the Honda Fit you have a bunch of cameras that show you think [TS]

  stephen Hunter cordova backup camera so you know their cameras are coming to [TS]

  cars near you and please please don't read in telling us about regulations and [TS]

  things that are going to require [TS]

  our backup cameras to be there we know that those thank you also unrelated to [TS]

  any of the other follow-up unknown has told us that there's lots of classical [TS]

  music in the iTunes Music Store Apple music I'm not sure why that's [TS]

  significant but it's in the show notes and we have now covered it [TS]

  yeah I don't know who it was said that but a bunch of people and that's not a [TS]

  quota is likely all that you know there's tons of classical music in the [TS]

  very next thing from Frank hertz is for unknown reasons Apple iTunes Apple music [TS]

  Spotify anything are also a classical music vast archive studio recordings [TS]

  remain unavailable online so there are two opinions of classical music one [TS]

  person saying that one person's name I did not record saying there's tons of [TS]

  classical music and other person saying that there's not so I don't know what to [TS]

  think but obviously at least one person is not satisfied with the selection [TS]

  available [TS]

  you don't say yeah and then Chris wrote in to say that nothing was not on iTunes [TS]

  these hip hop mixtapes even mainstream mines almost never on streaming services [TS]

  are stories due to copyright for all the samples they include but I guess kind of [TS]

  falls in the same categories matchups this is my favorite piece of follow-up [TS]

  to this week we had somewhat comically somewhat flippantly [TS]

  told underscore David Smith last episode or had assumed that underscore David [TS]

  Smith would figure out the origin of the phrase on an infinite time scale this [TS]

  was referenced about 43 minutes into the last episode underscored has reported it [TS]

  is totally unsurprising and yet kind of surprising and he has said that the [TS]

  first usage of the exact phrase infinite time scale wasn't boys by Marco on ATP [TS]

  83 @ about an hour in 14 minutes however the concept was introduced in eighty p53 [TS]

  in about an hour and 16 minutes but in Allen quoting John never used be now [TS]

  canonical phrasing himself I love to underscore David Smith I don't know how [TS]

  he figured this out I don't know what he did but he figured it out while he is [TS]

  the official show the story that is true he is the official show historian and [TS]

  the reason he looks up as my attention is that this infinite times killing is [TS]

  not the canonical praising him anything that it is what Marco [TS]

  made up to make fun of my argument that I made to him and I and probably in [TS]

  Episode III the concept once again was that if you agree with me that something [TS]

  will happen eventually but can never actually agree on any actual finite I'm [TS]

  like well you know and then at the market as well an infinite times the [TS]

  ideas that you not saying you know it will happen one time equals infinity [TS]

  you're saying we all agree that at some point in the future this thing will [TS]

  happen but it won't happen this year or next year or the year after that or the [TS]

  year after that or the year after that so you try to try to get the pin the [TS]

  person down you say well is it ever gonna happen or that never in as well as [TS]

  gets gonna have a dimension of course we agree but then like five years 10 years [TS]

  15 years a hundred years and so intimate time scale infinity was is conceptually [TS]

  in there but I don't think I use that particular phrase again entirely sure [TS]

  because can remember what you say so I had I would love for people to find [TS]

  definitively the source of someone else wrote and said they thought it was on [TS]

  debugging was going to say it may be said and done debug have made similar [TS]

  arguments with stubborn people who refused to acknowledge the inevitability [TS]

  I believe by the way like arguing with marco was about another guy and Marcos [TS]

  both about how Jack you see needed to be replaced yep that's right I had and I [TS]

  had to resort to like here we all agree it's gonna happen eventually right guys [TS]

  will eventually turn out to be like next year [TS]

  something yes it was yeah but that doesn't seem like you never sometimes [TS]

  it's farther than you think like a new technologies can be held in five years [TS]

  and years especially about to do with medicine it's always five to 10 years [TS]

  away and it just seems like it takes so you know so long to get there but intact [TS]

  you can be caught by surprise because lots of things intact are feasible right [TS]

  now but we know there's a bunch of other things that are stopping them from [TS]

  happening and so it could happen tomorrow probably not and it didn't [TS]

  happen last year and didn't happen to you before I like we're with Objective C [TS]

  for so long [TS]

  and you know my whole thing like oakland 2010 2010 came and went [TS]

  director see right so that's the fun of the industry where end that unlike [TS]

  medicine and other fields where things are very often and pure sciences things [TS]

  very often much farther out than you think their technology there are lots of [TS]

  things that we know are possible today but that sort of market forces are [TS]

  momentum or you know just stubbornness of the people in charge of these [TS]

  companies caused this not to happen when we want them to but then I could just [TS]

  wake up one day and boom all of a sudden it's their room a positive files that [TS]

  come from and what happened next year and could you could literally have it [TS]

  could have happened this year could literally happening sure there's nothing [TS]

  stopping it other than you know taking a long time to do something that should [TS]

  have been done by I enjoy this this what has become routine segment of in every [TS]

  show john has to explain one of the arguments he's made in the past [TS]

  everybody keeps loading misunderstanding [TS]

  yeah the the whole the idea that infinite time scale the internet times [TS]

  argument that got that is the short version of this thing it's a terrible [TS]

  short name because it's misleading so that's why I'm trying to figure out is [TS]

  this my fault that I actually say this or is this market and so far as long as [TS]

  Marcus most likely but I am really good at naming things even if they aren't [TS]

  entirely accurate [TS]

  yeah you should just be argument yeah exactly in our final piece of follow-up [TS]

  which I didn't even think to include until I noticed in the show now it's [TS]

  just something else that said I guess Marco this is a very good idea in the [TS]

  show notes it reads as follows [TS]

  market would like to explain the state of us' radio to non-americans so Marco I [TS]

  put the last minute they kept thinking we kept getting feedback people as last [TS]

  last time we talked a lot about each one and about how terrible modern radio is [TS]

  like broadcast FM radio and and I will include SiriusXM in there as well I i've [TS]

  been i've been an excellent customer for a long time coming over I became a [TS]

  serious [TS]

  series customer and I've been a satellite radio customers since about [TS]

  2003 yeah but 2003 2002 so I've been there for a long time so and before that [TS]

  you know radio was my whole youth radio is everything to me [TS]

  music was everything group the radio as I think we all did being a very big deal [TS]

  and the state of radio from what I've heard from people to state of radio in [TS]

  other countries especially what what sounds like people love BBC One and BBC [TS]

  Radio [TS]

  I have no familiarity with at all I have no I don't even notice the station I I [TS]

  don't know but it sounds like a radio and other places is potentially good [TS]

  sometimes and in the us- that he's just not the case like radio in the us- was [TS]

  gutted by Clear Channel which is now I Heart Radio [TS]

  it was gutted by Clear Channel over the last couple decades and and and you know [TS]

  it you can't blame when companies here in everything the fact is like the [TS]

  difficult economics of radio ruined everything really but it just became [TS]

  cheaper and crappy read more and more automated and fake and it it just became [TS]

  horrible to the point where now most FM stations in America are not very little [TS]

  human involvement there it's not like a deejay sitting at a console playing [TS]

  records all day or two at a time or just program completely with no humans or [TS]

  with fake human involvement or minimal human involvement it there is no that [TS]

  the idea of like a person with nice eclectic music taste curating a playlist [TS]

  for you that that doesn't exist really any scale you know there might be one or [TS]

  two stations insert in some cities that do it but for the most part in america [TS]

  you know most places you are you not gonna find that on the radio and so [TS]

  radio in america is just terrible it's full of the worst commercials in the [TS]

  world [TS]

  the same like 20 songs in a loop on a play list and SiriusXM is in most ways [TS]

  no better it is as much as I have been a customer this company for so many years [TS]

  it's a horrible company it like it's horribly run they have pretty [TS]

  questionable ethics when it comes to their marketing and billing practices it [TS]

  the audio quality is just awful [TS]

  over the air and their website is terrible their APIs terrible it's always [TS]

  been terror the the only reason this company exists and succeeds first was [TS]

  because it had eclectic music channels and nothing else had at any time in the [TS]

  early 2000 when nobody had unlimited data plans on their cell phones in their [TS]

  pockets the complete streaming services and then and of course after that the [TS]

  Howard Stern came on that made a huge difference and others are there some [TS]

  some exclusive talk shows that have big audiences as well but for the most part [TS]

  I see no future for satellite radio I think that only radio is dead I think [TS]

  it'll be interesting to see what happens to serious when Howard leave to see how [TS]

  much of an impact he has what does one of the problems of satellite radios at [TS]

  the can tell who's listening to what they can't see how many of their [TS]

  customers are listening to Howard stern- over the air [TS]

  versus other shows who knows but anyway it'll be good to see what happens on his [TS]

  contract is up this fall and he has to decide to stay or go somewhere else and [TS]

  it sure sounds like for his comments he's not going to stay so we'll see what [TS]

  happens I've heard a few people suggest that maybe Apple would hire him to do [TS]

  like beets too and it's all talk I don't see that happening at all just because I [TS]

  don't see Apple wanting his basically his profanity and and dirtiness and I [TS]

  don't see i don't see him on doing so that I won't even let me porn in the App [TS]

  Store Howard Stern on the radio station so going back to your point radio is [TS]

  horrible in in america SiriusXM is horrible and so beats one being Lake DJs [TS]

  that are talented it being DJs playing good music that is actually novel again [TS]

  that's because we haven't had that for a very long time in america so that's why [TS]

  such a big deal to us last year or last week rather and and if if the rest of [TS]

  the world you know if you have great radio stations on just broadcast that's [TS]

  great congratulations enjoy them while you can enjoy them while they're there [TS]

  we haven't had them in a very long time [TS]

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  code trim force promo code trim force this week thanks a lot to cover the best [TS]

  way to buy and manage domain names right so we had kind of teas this last week [TS]

  and we should probably talk about it this week johnnie Safari the new ie [TS]

  somebody says it is sort of says and then sort of retracted it but it's [TS]

  alright it he's a good guy i i sympathize with somebody writing or rant [TS]

  and then being spread way more than you think it should order you expected and [TS]

  then you have to deal with all the lake oh wait a minute maybe I didn't actually [TS]

  mean it as severely as I said or people are taking the wrong idea from yeah a [TS]

  little bit really doesn't know little awesome person we're talking about here [TS]

  thing called safari is the new I was republished or whatever but IRS [TS]

  technical but he's got his own side as well as syndicated John I don't know why [TS]

  I forget but somehow it appeared in multiple places yeah I like ours but I [TS]

  refuse to lead to a syndicated version opposed to the original one but it is [TS]

  like the whole thing was there though so I'm assuming they asked him hey Can we [TS]

  yeah yeah yeah it was used with permission let you know that's just the [TS]

  whole egg I every time I read an article that that spread anywhere [TS]

  get a handful of big site saying he can we would like to syndicator article to [TS]

  our audience and I agreed a couple times in the past you know it got me nothing [TS]

  but it got me nothing all it did was dealt with the value my recent article [TS]

  compete for it and search results and you know make my site look worse to [TS]

  Google because now I have to the content I still have more stuff just nice [TS]

  it yeah it was it wasn't actually are that done with them in the past I won't [TS]

  complain that specifically but it was it just never worked out well for me as the [TS]

  author 8:00 it doesn't it doesn't really help the site that's indicated because [TS]

  they get content for free it it doesn't really help you the author in a [TS]

  meaningful way anyway so the gist of this article is known Lawson is a web [TS]

  developer and he said himself that he is an Android user and developer and he [TS]

  contributes to a bunch of web standard stuff and he he's very upset and [TS]

  frustrated with Apple for in general two major things one of kind of lagging [TS]

  behind implementing new web standards as they come out and special some of the [TS]

  more advanced recent stuff involved in things like local databases local [TS]

  storage and like device access to fight that and secondly he is frustrated with [TS]

  them for not being visible active participants in the web development [TS]

  community and the conferences and stuff that he goes to as as as a developer and [TS]

  he thinks they they need to be so I don't know I mean we are all current or [TS]

  past web developers what do you think of us I thought it was reasonable for him [TS]

  to be embroidered that Apple wasn't really participating in this conference [TS]

  going on the assumption not knowing any better at this conference was important [TS]

  and it wasn't like the Richmond Virginia web developer's conference with whatever [TS]

  I don't even recall what it was but I'm going on on faith that the the [TS]

  conference was one that it would be appropriate for Apple to appear at I [TS]

  understand that Apple doesn't usually like to show its hand I understand that [TS]

  this is not usually Apple style [TS]

  I don't think it's unreasonable for someone who is into the quote-unquote [TS]

  open web to say hey it's kind of BS about wasn't there I don't think that's [TS]

  that I don't take any issue with that I do think he got a little bit aggressive [TS]

  saying safaris in Hawaii and the way I read the original article was that he [TS]

  was bitter that his favorite new features the web or the his favoured I [TS]

  don't know new technologies Apple doesn't seem to be supporting and he [TS]

  seemed like he was pretty grumpy about that I don't think that was really [TS]

  necessary but like you said Marco sometimes you just fired up about stuff [TS]

  that he had a little aggressive in you to really kind of regret it afterwards [TS]

  yet and it's important that you know he did write this follow-up peace and he he [TS]

  addresses many of the common criticisms head-on and elaborate a little bit more [TS]

  and does kind of attract some of the severity of his original post and he's [TS]

  and you know he talked about the title like you know so far is the new IE is a [TS]

  really catchy title it's 80 some people using it being linked bTW it sounds like [TS]

  that was really his intent but you know it doesn't matter I think we can move [TS]

  past that analogy because that is irrelevant because it's really not [TS]

  accurate and we know we were all around developing for the old ideas that were [TS]

  really bad and the new IDs are glorious compared to the old and they're still [TS]

  not quite right but they're much closer now than they used to me and it is it is [TS]

  impossible to to understate how much of a pain it was to develop and you kind of [TS]

  advanced web layout even or even any kind of symbol of any kind of people [TS]

  here in like 2006 when you when you when there was all this great stuff moving [TS]

  forward and you had to still support these terrible versions of IE that broke [TS]

  everything in such big ways like it was so much worse believe me so this is not [TS]

  that was a fair analogy but I think we can move past that as you know that's [TS]

  not the point [TS]

  well I think there is something to that the reason why but that's part of it [TS]

  could be as you said i'm looking at this picture may be young enough that he [TS]

  didn't live through the dark times and doesn't understand exactly [TS]

  exactly how grim situation was when you like i remember not being able to set [TS]

  the font with CSS and I like it was like seriously like i cant style text like [TS]

  forget about lab forget about the friggin box model forget about to text [TS]

  back in the bad old days like IE five could do it on the Mac but no other [TS]

  version about you could do it [TS]

  soviet so there's obviously not in terms of area but why why would he pick this [TS]

  title that the frustration is feeling as a web developer and by the way it's [TS]

  still true even though they're so much better it still I still think I is the [TS]

  new I like you want to do something on the web and when you do anything on the [TS]

  web it's like it's not like Android fragmentation where you at ten different [TS]

  version sometimes there's just certain things you can't do because you know X [TS]

  percentage of users using a particular browser to access big effects even just [TS]

  like high single-digit percentages like well we can't do because you know what [TS]

  are you gonna say about 5% of our users have you got a lot of users 5% as a lot [TS]

  of people like no one is going to agree to that you know and so I wish I could [TS]

  use this thing about 5% of my views are still in ie8 and I it has a limit on the [TS]

  number of selectors and CSS CSS files into multiple files or we don't use them [TS]

  but there's always some stupid limitation for some technology you want [TS]

  to use and there's always one browser that is like that is the one like when [TS]

  you say hey we should do this you tried and all the browsers and this is the [TS]

  month ago it supported everywhere but in this one and again I think I still [TS]

  nothing changes the performance these days a lot of times things that are [TS]

  reasonably fast and all the WebKit based browsers are still not as fast night [TS]

  again I is getting much better really fast so it is not too bad I used to but [TS]

  I still catching up but the texts known as talking about our new things like a [TS]

  shadow and web components and service workers and [TS]

  like things that give new capabilities on the merits of a prelate in a lot of [TS]

  focus on his articles have been like coherence right here on the right things [TS]

  that I like native apps but using web technologies but I think that's actually [TS]

  beside the point I think it's really there's a bunch of new web technologies [TS]

  inside ok well what browsers can what modern browsers can I use this deck with [TS]

  and he points to the site can I use dot com which gives the United grades like [TS]

  what browser support which thing and for a surprising number of these new things [TS]

  so far is the one that the lagging behind lagging behind chrome even which [TS]

  you know used to be WebKit bracing now is based on blank and even some of these [TS]

  is implemented some of these things and more than Safari and so if you are web [TS]

  developer and every time you wanna do something cool you are stopped because [TS]

  either Mobile Safari or just a few people care about desktops [TS]

  if every time you go through this exercise you start seeing safari is the [TS]

  one stopping you and Safari has a historical review the reputation as a [TS]

  good standards-compliant browser you know WebKit is greater and let's webcam [TS]

  like it's the good web rendering engine right you start to feel like Safari is [TS]

  the one stopping you from doing what you want to do on the web and I i think it [TS]

  is separate from do you wanna make apps or whatever like you are using XDA be in [TS]

  local stores even stuff like showdown with almost nothing to do with [TS]

  outsourced without having a sane way to plop in some content in another page not [TS]

  have to fight the the cascade of CSS you know like web components and showered on [TS]

  some like these are good technologies that it is beneficial to the web period [TS]

  having nothing to do with making web things like out like apps and safari is [TS]

  behind on a lot of these and the other part of it the casey was mentioning is [TS]

  like well I they really behind your head they're just not announced that support [TS]

  mike is is the next major version Safari gonna come out and help support for [TS]

  Ali's when new person so far come out tons of stuff isn't it and you don't [TS]

  hear about the stuff until it comes out which is different than the most of the [TS]

  other browser [TS]

  makers do so in these web conferences with all the other browser makers are [TS]

  showing off their cool things Apple is not there because Apple doesn't go to [TS]

  any conferences Apple goes to watc right they don't they tend not to show up at [TS]

  other places he's not in a public way and so it feels like they're not [TS]

  participating in the community so that combined with the fact that safari is [TS]

  behind on a lot of these things makes you feel like the thing the browser [TS]

  that's stopping you from doing what you wanna do it so far just like the browser [TS]

  you stop you from doing what you need to do is i in terms of degree it's [TS]

  different because people don't realize how bad it was a time when I A sucked [TS]

  and be with not getting any better Safari does not suck and is getting [TS]

  better it just possibly getting better slightly slower and these specific areas [TS]

  that web developers kerouac care about in terms of this president has support [TS]

  for this thing this president's overall Safari doesn't never mind and this also [TS]

  spirals into like why can't I have other web rendering engines and iOS and also [TS]

  some things but I think the kernel of truth behind the title is that this web [TS]

  developer feels like every time he wants to use a new technology so far is the [TS]

  browser to stopping him because the party is on the list of browsers that he [TS]

  cares about and has to support but doesn't have this new tech why I think [TS]

  it's even it's even more specific than that I think it's that he's trying to [TS]

  make an elaborate more on the follow-up Lake [TS]

  he believes and this is not just him this is a very widespread belief that [TS]

  after velopment like native app development is you know one thing and [TS]

  it's kind of a bad thing it's kind of an efficient and that the way forward for [TS]

  mobile is to just write really advanced web ads and to have one web app that you [TS]

  write that runs on all mobile platforms and that way you don't have to write [TS]

  native apps that is that it that is seemingly his his main goal of position [TS]

  here is like that that is the end goal that is the ideal and so what are you [TS]

  talking about is you know iowa is holding him back [TS]

  it's really it's it's a thousand percent about iOS Safari and not about you know [TS]

  desktop really it's about iOS Safari on iOS Safari being [TS]

  you know the only built in thing that you can use on iOS devices which are [TS]

  kind of popular and he wants to write an app that he that can run on Android and [TS]

  iOS by by being in a web app and he wants that apt to have basically you [TS]

  know all the all the same abilities and quality and performance and everything [TS]

  as native apps and that is that is extremely common among among a pretty [TS]

  large segments web developers to have that goal in that position and those [TS]

  priorities in mind but I really don't think those are apples priorities and I [TS]

  mean I have a whole lot to say about standards standards people but it just [TS]

  because that is what all these people are pushing for does not mean that [TS]

  either that's what users care about or that's what Apple wants to enable [TS]

  there's lots of downside to that like one of things he cites in his blog post [TS]

  in the second post he's talking about he said you know I just one of many [TS]

  examples he says there's a problem using this local database interface which [TS]

  forgive me I have not followed the stuff so I don't know what is possible what is [TS]

  not and what limits are but there is he he mentions how this local database [TS]

  thing he's using local storage iOS four website forbes's capped at 50 megs and [TS]

  then it'll ask the user to confirm that they wanted to go past five megs once [TS]

  the past five megs and he saying this is really a problem for making it out to [TS]

  make something if you're trying to store a whole bunch of data natively in a web [TS]

  app and you're limited to five megs without asking and then 50 megs total [TS]

  even after asking that is quite limiting for that purpose but rebels point of [TS]

  view there any offer way to make apps it's called native apps and they don't [TS]

  have those stories on the patient's and I can see why I don't know if this is [TS]

  why this limits in place or or whether they just haven't gotten around to it [TS]

  yet but I can see why they would look at this request it just to let you know [TS]

  when big storm treatments data or whatever they want and and you could see [TS]

  what I could be a problem because one part of a preview that occasionally [TS]

  causes controversial issues is they actually have [TS]

  Norwich rules on how you use storage and you have to mark your files as backup [TS]

  force is not back up properly [TS]

  you can't just like download excessive amounts of data or store excessive [TS]

  amounts of data without a good reason and storage management and iOS is all [TS]

  about her apt controls so you can go to the general you 16 which still isn't [TS]

  great but you can go there and you can see a modest pays what apps using the [TS]

  most and Apple give you these controls to say all right well you can you here's [TS]

  your list of apps here's the story you can you delete or make choices based on [TS]

  that so there's all these like all this baggage that comes along with the [TS]

  ability to use lots of storage space on device and you have to when when you're [TS]

  enabling web technology and web capabilities you have to be much more [TS]

  conservative and much more limiting for many good reasons performance battery [TS]

  life but also security and usability and many of these features like modern web [TS]

  standards are are going way beyond what web standards meant ten years ago ten [TS]

  years ago it was only talking about like how a page be laid out and different [TS]

  capabilities you have with CSS and end a little bit of javascript like that's [TS]

  really what webster about so back then the idea was lets you know fix all the [TS]

  girls you did in the past make things better for layout and enable a few small [TS]

  things and in javascript and let's make it we only had to make one that a markup [TS]

  and back then that made perfect sense back then it was very defensible and it [TS]

  wasn't by the way it wasn't some like perfectly clean thing that just happened [TS]

  all of a sudden everyone was on board that took years to hammer out and and [TS]

  took your for that stuff is remotely usable but you know back then it was a [TS]

  much simpler think it was all about like how does the page render now what many [TS]

  of these standards are demanding or or or creating are requesting is much much [TS]

  harder things to make performance and secure and good for users and and you [TS]

  know some things like you know spawning background processes [TS]

  having any kind of native hardware access or more like a compiled code [TS]

  access any kind of interaction where you can break out of the browser so things [TS]

  like notifications access to the hardware sensors vibration something now [TS]

  so many of these new standards are breaking out of the page that has [TS]

  rendered and doing way more advanced stuff stuff that is usually only the the [TS]

  realm of native absolutes in the past [TS]

  of apps so especially on iOS four apples very careful that these things for very [TS]

  good reasons I can totally see why they would not only moves slowly but also say [TS]

  noticing things because that actually if they actually let every web app create [TS]

  500 Meg gigabyte large databases that are not under the under a preview and [TS]

  can do whatever they want and it's hard to people to be able to find and delete [TS]

  that stories like that's a problem it you have to quit everything any [TS]

  capability that Apple adds to WebKit and the web engine and in Mobile Safari they [TS]

  have to assume the worst like assuming what what is the worst possible people [TS]

  were there were the result of gonna do with this on like some ad network that [TS]

  embed on every single web page or something like there are so many [TS]

  ramifications of privacy there's battery there's usability this be a mean so many [TS]

  considerations there that it is totally completely reasonable that Apple would [TS]

  both moves slowly and say no to some things so I think that limiting web [TS]

  technologies the only things that show pages and not allowing a play things as [TS]

  shortsighted because a lot of a lot of things that web applications are doing [TS]

  today did a crappier because of the lack of progress and standards and even just [TS]

  like this sort of the modern way of running web applications where a lot of [TS]

  it happens clients over their century JavaScript applications that execute on [TS]

  the client which is better than I make securing the server fewer round trips in [TS]

  the client has faster CPU dedicated just to you and also the stuff [TS]

  but still served up by loading a page that gives you this gigantic water of [TS]

  JavaScript that may be magnified in office Gaiden geez it can you bring it [TS]

  back to browse and across the brothers to compile it every time even if it has [TS]

  a cached version doesn't catch to compile the copy and then that takes [TS]

  time sometimes just you burn milliseconds just parsing and Lexington [TS]

  compiling the jobs before you even start executing it and that's the type of crap [TS]

  that makes just plain ol the web pages feel slower it it adds latency and [TS]

  everything has kind of like other web assembly stuff going on out there that's [TS]

  what I always kind of been reading for something like dark but better or like [TS]

  swift in the browser or something like that like that people are doing things [TS]

  with current technologies that are that are making making the web experience [TS]

  worse for users and that's there are advances in those areas that are sort of [TS]

  separate from the like you're talking about it like oh you just give web [TS]

  developers fear and if your hardware and let them start times a day do whatever [TS]

  just you know just chatted online and webcam points that's not nasty animal [TS]

  can do that in fact that enables technologies that allow you to have sort [TS]

  of reusable components that are more isolated from each other that don't have [TS]

  access to other parts of the pages that are separate that that make web [TS]

  development easier just to kind of like do the things we're doing now but [TS]

  technologies to do them better and it's not as if Apple isn't pursuing these [TS]

  like if you talk about the web standards of apples in [TS]

  is and has been for many years active participant aw three see like they they [TS]

  have an opinion on what the [TS]

  you should use for like serving upright and images for example Apple with heavy [TS]

  participate in that thing the canvas tag basically comes from Apple they do care [TS]

  about web standards and they have their permission position and they push their [TS]

  things and such as Microsoft on the other participants in the web standards [TS]

  process is just that in the grand scheme of things if you had to rank the browser [TS]

  vendors [TS]

  how aggressive they are pursuing standards for the most part the other [TS]

  browsers are more aggressive than Apple and partly because they kind of have to [TS]

  be because what would Firefox's claim to fame be there was both less popular and [TS]

  yes you know technologically advanced than Safari in kind of the same thing [TS]

  but I E which is trying to like refurbish its reputation as the browser [TS]

  doesn't imply anything so they're gung ho to jump on whatever they can and [TS]

  Google course which is everything it does web app so you know they chose to [TS]

  my code hard or go home [TS]

  thing which was talking about why it was kind of natural for Google to go its own [TS]

  way with WebKit because they were just they were driving the development to a [TS]

  large extent and they wanted things and they wanted things now and they didn't [TS]

  want to be held back by set of Apple's more cautious release schedule so I [TS]

  think the frustration that all web developers told that whatever the [TS]

  browser as its not letting them do the thing they want to do is real but I [TS]

  don't know what the solution is because it's not as if you know all this this [TS]

  frustration can be real and this position can be justified from the point [TS]

  of view i have a web developer but I don't think any of it is compelling in [TS]

  any way for Apple to change what it's doing because he just loved her and say [TS]

  well what is Apple's respective what do they care about what what role do they [TS]

  see the web browser taking what things are important to them and a couple [TS]

  people like sort of countering this article saying about this part is not [TS]

  that bad take a look at this there was one showing the CSS for select their [TS]

  support with WebKit Knightley has like 53 percent support in the end the [TS]

  closest one is the Chrome Canary at 32% and everything tails off from there is [TS]

  always care alot about CSS there was someone who is showing like a CSS [TS]

  spinner to showing a little shape spinning around with CSS looking at the [TS]

  CPU usage if you just think spin Safari CPU usage is 20 firefighters 23% chrome [TS]

  is 20% design I was 10 not an iOS Apple's always cared about power [TS]

  efficiency so they want to do as many things as possible in an efficient [TS]

  manner they they emphasize a lot of the past couple WWC them to what should you [TS]

  know what should our your web kid be doing [TS]

  a page is just open in the browser but you're not looking at your house apart [TS]

  not killing your CPU and waking up every few milliseconds to animate some stupid [TS]

  JavaScript thing how is it maintaining responsiveness but not kill your CPU [TS]

  those things that happens concentrating on the spending a lot of engineering [TS]

  effort to things that are important to Apple for its platform and I don't think [TS]

  web developers complained that they can use particular technologies are going to [TS]

  come into Apple to add those technologies any faster because there's [TS]

  no sort of meeting of the minds who is no sort of like let me tell you why this [TS]

  would be better for you Apple that's why you should do it all it is this would be [TS]

  better for me and I will be better for us if your native apps and so they just [TS]

  stand there are installed it and say well snapple's like well I'm not gonna [TS]

  add that thing we're adding the things that are like this party and stuff all [TS]

  the time I'm always amazed maneuvered his farrakhan that how much stuff isn't [TS]

  it is just not necessarily you things that you would want if your goal is to [TS]

  be a web developer I do worry a little bit about Apple kind of falling behind [TS]

  the other browsers to the point where it really is I E in terms of standards [TS]

  apart when you know when like everybody else has had support for you no say in [TS]

  text me catches on it becomes like a big thing and everyone has it and everyone [TS]

  has had it for five years and still is enough support for a new certain point [TS]

  kind of the web community sort of votes with their implementations [TS]

  just like well I can't do that cuz I he doesn't have eventually web community [TS]

  was like you know what I'm using using CSS the standard was released in 1996 [TS]

  I'm going to use the only way to stop texting my site is CSS screw I like the [TS]

  web community voted the city even though the version of IE that some huge [TS]

  percentage of my users are using does not support this feature I'm still going [TS]

  to write my website and it and when I user complaints I'm gonna say you know [TS]

  what screw you like that that can eventually happen I used you don't want [TS]

  to ever get in a situation where they are the only ones refusing to implement [TS]

  some particular standard because it doesn't fit with this strategy and that [TS]

  the wider community of web developers votes with their keyboards and says well [TS]

  fine Apple don't supported were writing went out to it [TS]

  everyone comes in here in Mobile Safari is going to be a big thing that says [TS]

  sorry [TS]

  a modern browser I get the doomsday scenario that is we are far from that [TS]

  today very far from it because most of these standards are talking about are [TS]

  barely implementing the other browsers are super bugs everywhere no Mirai any [TS]

  appetite right but I do worry about that happening simply because Apple party [TS]

  seems so different than the priorities of pretty much every other company that [TS]

  makes a web browser even Microsoft at this point which maybe we'll talk about [TS]

  their their their difficulties with their own native platforms and how the [TS]

  web may become more important to them as they go forward and the same with the [TS]

  web is kind of the savior of Apple became safer received from being [TS]

  irrelevant because everybody can use the web and once the Maxi use the web that [TS]

  gave them you know an extension on their lifeline and gave ample time to sort of [TS]

  come back from the brink right back to be the situation then I guess that's [TS]

  going to now so even though yes this article is it's a channel and it's sort [TS]

  of dating one position but it is not particularly compelling Apple to change [TS]

  what it's doing I do worry about the sort of kernel of truth underlying this [TS]

  this dissatisfaction and that's certainly fair but I think you know if [TS]

  if this does continue to get worse to the point where it's a big problem that [TS]

  Apple doesn't support things that people do the market will sort that out like [TS]

  you know as you said that you know if somebody puts up the doomsday page is a [TS]

  well sorry our this cool app everyone to use doesn't work on safari then Apple [TS]

  will will you know if that truly succeed that Apple be forced to respond and to [TS]

  respond or to lose all of our business or lose our browser and that's fine but [TS]

  I think one of the problems with this is we certainly know what samples [TS]

  motivation here like the goal of having web apps replace native apps that is [TS]

  something that web developers are clamoring for but our users clamoring [TS]

  for it are native app developers clamoring for it like it it seems like [TS]

  this is the kind of thing that web developers are all saying in order for [TS]

  us to keep doing things the way we like best we need these things to make as [TS]

  relevant in this world that right now [TS]

  week [TS]

  are in first class citizens but that world and the people who use it don't [TS]

  have that problem like me as as as a native as a native app developer and as [TS]

  a user of native apps on my phone I don't have the problem of my wife s [TS]

  can't do enough like that is not a problem I have but you know you do have [TS]

  that I quentin offers obviously other users have it too because you have that [TS]

  problem is that developers have two companies that had a software product or [TS]

  service have to make multiple different native apps why because you can't make [TS]

  it about that works for everybody or you can it's crappy right and that is best [TS]

  for you as a user because it's been spreading their efforts over several [TS]

  proprietary platforms like the open web is good for users so it's bad that you [TS]

  can't use bad for users I think that you can't use the open web to make an appt [TS]

  that's as good as a native app experience are close enough to to be [TS]

  good enough that's bad for users is also bad for developers because they spend [TS]

  more time fighting with individual proprietary platforms instead of the [TS]

  above the open web is good for pretty much everybody except for big companies [TS]

  right and so there is this constant effort to try to make the open web [TS]

  better as the Internet platforms again better all the time [TS]

  companies are very highly potent to make data file they're also motivated to make [TS]

  their web browsers better that rose Bernard Tomic's party run faster [TS]

  pages load faster which is why I think Apple could actually do well to be more [TS]

  aggressive enough things that just simply let you you know get your [TS]

  javascript loaded in cash in free compiled faster than we currently doing [TS]

  and stuff like that but but yeah I think the open web is the benefit to both [TS]

  developers and users and it's only a detriment to companies with proprietary [TS]

  platforms and so we're kind of in this catch-twenty two it's like well that's [TS]

  not really good for you just because you if they could make it up every would [TS]

  suck and it was like yeah but we wanted not to suck and so what happens first [TS]

  do you make it not suck first or do you implement it but it still sucks but [TS]

  everybody does it and made about just like it it's a difficult situation for [TS]

  everybody involved I think it's wrong to say that there's no benefit for uses [TS]

  that definitely it's the same thing you talked about [TS]

  maintains it for about proprietary systems owned and controlled by one [TS]

  company like Twitter versus an open alternative the open web is an important [TS]

  thing to preserve and continue to enhance and there's always going to be [TS]

  out of there is going to be a particularly gap and I would like they [TS]

  got to narrower and I think narrowing that gap between native in the open web [TS]

  would be good for everybody except the possible exception of companies like [TS]

  Apple and Microsoft I mean in general I agree but I do want to clarify that I i [TS]

  my position is not that there is no user benefit my position is that there's too [TS]

  little user demand [TS]

  well there's a catch 22 why would they demand a crappy rap like they want you [TS]

  know they don't know it's not like they're demanding a web is like going to [TS]

  use the lebanese the native 1981 is better right so it's the it it's [TS]

  something that they would benefit from the users who benefit from but they [TS]

  don't know they don't have to ask the same way that you wouldn't know enough [TS]

  to ask for you know like a language like sweat like they don't know like what [TS]

  causes bugs and if there was a better different programming language it would [TS]

  cost fewer of those bugs and help develop it like that's not a user [TS]

  concern but they reap the benefits of like you just don't know what technology [TS]

  developers need to have to make their lives better and then I can even connect [TS]

  back the fact that like it takes twice as long to get something especially if [TS]

  you're on like a lesser platform like if you're on a platform that is if you have [TS]

  a Windows Phone maybe you feel this mark Healey version of the app for iOS and [TS]

  they said I make an Android version but I don't even mention the words when [TS]

  those songs so but I can use this web page that we can all use right we get a [TS]

  Mac users have been in a position where they were Windows versions of everything [TS]

  they wanted and I'm a Christian maybe was mentioned once or maybe never [TS]

  mentioned we meet halfway [TS]

  well but you know part of the problem here is like the argument for web [TS]

  developers making the best being like the way forward for all mobile platforms [TS]

  would be a much stronger argument if there were more than two that mattered [TS]

  but there aren't and it's not most mostly companies and start-ups and [TS]

  everything that have an app you can you can get away just find making either [TS]

  just iOS 4 iOS and Android that's a symptom though isn't it like quieter [TS]

  only too well because native app so powerful because it's so hard to make it [TS]

  a platform like if the open web with as powerful it will be harder for two [TS]

  platforms to serve dominate the entire market was it would be like well you [TS]

  know we can have a diversity of like palm would have survived if they didn't [TS]

  have to have their own native SDK and have people right now about it the only [TS]

  viable way to you know if it went out as for the only absent again the same way [TS]

  that the Mac survive like why was the Mac wider than I even continue to be [TS]

  relevant because the web became so big and like well yeah I can't have a [TS]

  Windows applications but increasingly as long as I can go to yahoo.com in order [TS]

  books from Amazon and Pakistan viable computer don't write so it's you know [TS]

  it's the right term or chicken egg or whatever but they're each thing is [TS]

  blocking the other like well it doesn't really matter is only two platforms but [TS]

  there are two platforms because the only way to ride out his native and how many [TS]

  native platforms can we support like you can't have seven even game consoles I [TS]

  never been like three with a maybe for like this just you can have 17 need of a [TS]

  pipeline so you could have seventeen different web browsers and different [TS]

  devices that all can view web pages that is totally possible making it like well [TS]

  we're web rendering engines how many of those are there similar number right but [TS]

  Webb rendering engines because they're defined by standards for the most part [TS]

  because we've all kind of agree that you can't just make up the marquee tag and [TS]

  just be like like it's not that's not a winning strategy just make up your [TS]

  entire proprietary things like ActiveX or whatever job didn't catch on [TS]

  we wanted to be open we want the open web to be controlled by a single company [TS]

  but if we let it languish that all that will be left is proprietary platforms [TS]

  and also I think it would be fun to also mention that this is not the only [TS]

  solution to this problem so we you know if you want if you have this this [TS]

  environment of multiple mobile platforms other let's be honest it's million 122 [TS]

  the matter right now and you want you have one thing that works on all of them [TS]

  there's already lots of things that let you make native apps using some kind of [TS]

  shared higher-level language then gets compiled down to native code [TS]

  platforms do those things exist and the as far as I know they do pretty well in [TS]

  the consulting business especially and so there are other solutions to the [TS]

  problem may be like the weather the Internet is fine you know all this [TS]

  communication between these apps and two servers it's all going over HTTPS and [TS]

  it's using it using the internet but it is not displaying the front any web any [TS]

  in a web browser necessarily or something that resembles a web browser [TS]

  and so you know the the problem of making one front-end app that displays [TS]

  your stuff for all platforms could be solved with web stuff it with another [TS]

  proprietary company offering you a solution that's on top of two other [TS]

  proprietary companies things like that's three things that can go wrong to to you [TS]

  know because yeah but nothing ever goes wrong with web browser support for [TS]

  things like what you know a new version of web browsers not gonna come out in [TS]

  the next like in the next year that is gonna break the bold tech right like it [TS]

  you know there whereas if you're writing something that targets a particular API [TS]

  that you know [TS]

  pretty subjective C code for iOS and produces you know Java code for your [TS]

  Android everything there are so many things about this platform can do [TS]

  unintentionally to make it so that your thing that targets both platforms breaks [TS]

  whereas the web [TS]

  comparatively is much more stable because it has to be because there's [TS]

  tons of web browsers and tons of markup and they can't there's no there's no [TS]

  sort of single controlling body in a way that there is apple or apple going to [TS]

  say well you know that API is gonna be changed or a BIR we just change from x86 [TS]

  two armored whatever you like oh god this thing I have that supposed to be [TS]

  targeting multiple platforms with a single code base is now like I don't [TS]

  even know it with a year work if I can get it to you know I don't know if it's [TS]

  ever gonna work again [TS]

  are they've changed the security rules I can't even do what I was doing before [TS]

  they change the apps admission rules with it you know [TS]

  snapping their fingers they can totally invalidate your entire strategy for [TS]

  deploying that worth it when does evolve but it involves way more slowly in there [TS]

  is no single point there's no single company that can say you know what that [TS]

  thing that you are making that makes a web app that runs on mobile and desktop [TS]

  browsers like next week it's not gonna work at all next bunch of this week is [TS]

  back please [TS]

  now Casey I heard you got some interesting information about back [TS]

  please [TS]

  indeed just a few hours ago listener road in Nick wrote hey Casey in ATP guys [TS]

  not really sure how that distinction happen that's cool thanks [TS]

  well in his defense he religious to me so I'm from anyway [TS]

  hero I just wanted to share an experience I'm finishing up college and [TS]

  have a small film company that I run out of my apartment off of old seagate hard [TS]

  drives those three terrible ones are right and I haven't had the money to [TS]

  upgrade until recently while waiting for many rate to come in in the mail [TS]

  both my main hard drive and backup completely failed because back plz the [TS]

  so cheap I'd everything up there in download my project files was able to [TS]

  cash some checks no black back please no profits thanks so much so here it from a [TS]

  listener not only from us this stuff really works but with that said Mark [TS]

  will tell you a little more about it [TS]

  yeah and honestly it we've heard from a number of people over the couple years [TS]

  back plz adds people who back please save the bacon with that is not an [TS]

  uncommon story to make sense of back please [TS]

  is unlimited on throttled online backup go to Backblaze dot com slash ATP to see [TS]

  for yourself it is five bucks a month for unlimited storage [TS]

  computer you need to have online backup it is so nice to have the peace of mind [TS]

  that your all your files all your memories all your documents your photos [TS]

  everything that is all [TS]

  safely backed up let's say you have you already have a backup system may be used [TS]

  time machine maybe you super duper cloning program may be used both that's [TS]

  great you should that's great [TS]

  back please give you that final fail-safe to know like what if what if [TS]

  there's a flood of my house and all my computer stuff that's on my desk is [TS]

  destroyed casey you create me for the last time on your desk so you know what [TS]

  what if casey Cumz over and spilled water on your time machine drive and [TS]

  your computer at the same time like then you're screwed unless you have something [TS]

  somewhere else right I highly recommend on a backup for situations like fires [TS]

  floods theft Casey power surges anything to you need something like this in your [TS]

  life and for five bucks a month for unlimited space and that's pretty hard [TS]

  to be that that value that you get fed a peace of mind you get for that granted [TS]

  everything I've said so far applies to every bomb attack of service for the [TS]

  most part what I like about back plz over the other ones is not only have I [TS]

  never had any problems with throttling or limits or with bad performance or bad [TS]

  upload speeds which I can't say that about the other services tried also [TS]

  their APIs nice you're from you just better everything about using the new [TS]

  just better for me the absence lowering it would limit or anything because their [TS]

  native good apps you know back please respect the Mac they had their APIs [TS]

  native code is not like you know Java or web technologies it is real native could [TS]

  they have great features too so they have an iPhone and Android app if you [TS]

  want and what you can do it that you can have you can restore just one file so [TS]

  let's say you're a trip and you forgot document on your home computer and you [TS]

  can't get to it go to back please login and you can restore one file and that's [TS]

  it then you had a document any where you are from iPhone and Android stop putting [TS]

  off doing this really you need online backup and you need this online backup [TS]

  that's me saying about them but they'll probably say the same thing so go to [TS]

  backpage.com / ATP five bucks a month per computer for unlimited backup [TS]

  untroubled speeds no add-ons no gimmicks no additional charges five bucks a month [TS]

  you can get a risk-free no credit card required trial by going to back [TS]

  leads.com / ATP thanks a lot to back please [TS]

  for sponsoring our show once again and for just being awesome ok I can leave [TS]

  your argument turns out to be a person who loves freedom and hate school [TS]

  helping all of your data into the cloud most part of it is like I look at web [TS]

  standards and standards people and I C you know what this is all the same old [TS]

  bullshit just now you put the word standard on it it's like standard marked [TS]

  down like you know you put the word standard and it sounds like something [TS]

  that is like this this great purpose with this great intentions noble effort [TS]

  and the reality is it's just people it just companies having power struggles [TS]

  for themselves like that's all it is but consensus is always ugly ass the whole [TS]

  point it's not owned or controlled by one company's you get a bunch of people [TS]

  arguing and they're going to come up with something that's not going to be as [TS]

  sort of pure as if one company decided but in the end result is hey guess what [TS]

  no one company decided no one company has enough pulled the WTC to dictate [TS]

  what happens and you know the strengths and weaknesses and weaknesses are [TS]

  well-known taking forever doing things on the comp with the stupid solution [TS]

  that saddam compromise doing things by committee is done the whole html5 mess [TS]

  with the white WGA like it's definitely uglier right but the end result no [TS]

  matter how crappy it may be is still not owned and controlled by a single company [TS]

  and that is it's one shining true benefit and you have to say that you [TS]

  know for all the bumps in the crappiness over the long term where we were with [TS]

  HTML for quote unquote strict mode and where we are today we have made progress [TS]

  in to help in straight line [TS]

  but web technologies and the things you can do with web apps of all kinds just [TS]

  from plain old web page is up to things that I college applications is way [TS]

  better now than it was a couple decades ago so sure but I think we're making [TS]

  progress and all along that progress at no point with the exception of Microsoft [TS]

  trying for it has all this web crap been under the thumb of a single company [TS]

  that's fair but you know there's also there's downsides to this and one of the [TS]

  downsides is like if your company like Apple and you have strong opinions about [TS]

  how things should be done let's face it everyone else does too but everyone else [TS]

  is more like a we can all agree on she's situation where they make it sound like [TS]

  what they want is the standard for everybody but really it's for them but [TS]

  you know Apple AAPL is not going to be pushed around here and if your Apple [TS]

  this could look as as though like why should I let this this consortium of [TS]

  other of my competitors basically dictate my road map to me and dictate my [TS]

  features to me and dictate how I do things like it cuts both ways like it is [TS]

  nice to have some kind of industry correlation in some kind of ad hoc [TS]

  standards for men sometimes you do you like i dictated standard but there's [TS]

  also so many downsize today and it can go so wrong and you have a situation [TS]

  where if you let the standards bodies which are just a bunch of dysfunctional [TS]

  people just like any other committee if you at these committees dictate [TS]

  everything you're going to do they're gonna make you do some bad stuff too and [TS]

  they're gonna make use against your interests and and possibly not a good [TS]

  ideas even for users and so you have to be a little bit picky you and you have [TS]

  to push back sometimes and you have to use declare her own standards sometimes [TS]

  and hope people catch up with Apple has done many times that's been Apple's kind [TS]

  of ammo that every three city like when they come in there when they come in [TS]

  they arrived with the canvas take like you know and be really cool idea guys if [TS]

  you have just had called canvas which by the way you've already implemented in [TS]

  the a pilot said I like our graphics but don't mind that we had this guys and if [TS]

  they say yes it's great for Apple's like yeah this and yes and guess what we [TS]

  already implemented like we're not just hypothetically telling you about [TS]

  something we think would be cool but [TS]

  already implemented and that's great for Apple and other companies are always [TS]

  doing the same thing hey you know i dont know they've already implemented but [TS]

  everybody is bringing to the table like here's how I think we should do read [TS]

  name is Justin by the way we've already implemented this in a web browser and [TS]

  everyone wants you to pick your thing for you for whatever the thing is [TS]

  because a that puts you ahead and be you're the one who got to design it and [TS]

  like the committees may take it and say what we like you propose we want to [TS]

  adjust this that and the other thing and then you can take great we'll go back [TS]

  and adjust their implementation that's how essentially web standards works at [TS]

  this point all the companies are coming with the thing that's exactly the way [TS]

  they want to do it the thing that's important to them at their pride and [TS]

  sometimes what happens is the thing that Apple wants they more or less get in the [TS]

  way they wanted it and think Microsoft once they more or less like each company [TS]

  has think that's the most important to them and set of all things get defined [TS]

  as standards and ever agree that are ya no that's totally standard but then who [TS]

  implements the camp stable Apple certainly has it they the ones made up [TS]

  their first who else is going to put the campus day the other ones like grumble [TS]

  grumble maybe I'll do it or whatever in the same thing with next day being [TS]

  shattered on like whoever is the strongest driving force behind those [TS]

  standards is the one that wants it the most and even if you get sort of agreed [TS]

  upon by the committee and written up on W three C and said this is going to be a [TS]

  standard like that takes years and years to get to that stage then you're still [TS]

  left with a right who implements these standards you know just pieces written [TS]

  down into three see our website is that market any Apple has to make it they get [TS]

  to pick and choose which web standards they're going to make it's bad it's a [TS]

  bad look for Apple if the committee you know there are three see agrees on how [TS]

  we're going to handle retin-a images and Apple implements its own way to do it [TS]

  despite the fact that it wasn't accepted standard and refuses to implement the [TS]

  accepted standard like that is sort of not playing the game the right way and I [TS]

  wouldn't do that because eventually five years down the line everybody else would [TS]

  have been planted this way to do read name badges and Apple would have the [TS]

  other way and people would be like well I gotta do conditional markup begin now [TS]

  for everybody else I can use this before sorry I have to do this no doubt I would [TS]

  never do that they're going to just go with the standard eventually anyway for [TS]

  things things that are implemented yet it's just because they're not high on [TS]

  the priority list like [TS]

  to catch on in which case I had been smart to not waste time implementing it [TS]

  or if they do catch on eventually Apple implemented it when it becomes important [TS]

  it's all about prioritization it's just that I seems like every other browser [TS]

  vendor is more motivated at this point to implement the standards faster [TS]

  because almost all the important platforms see the web at this point as [TS]

  their weapon against whatever other proprietary platform is beating them in [TS]

  whatever other market [TS]

  well you may be beating me in this market but like Windows Phone sorry that [TS]

  well Android and iOS maybe being a native app market but by Harry web [TS]

  standards really well maybe I'll have really cool web apps at the very least [TS]

  and and web developers will like our platform like the only thing available [TS]

  to them as Apple's parties have different priorities are a little weird [TS]

  because they have Android but they also have all Google's web apps so Google is [TS]

  highly motivated make the web awesome but also motivated to make a new [TS]

  platform the key to the highest I guess I mean in this game [TS]

  Apple is the only one who is highly motivated to work on native apps and [TS]

  slightly less motivated to work on the web stuff so kinda makes sense that they [TS]

  are choosing different web technologies to concentrate on and that so many of [TS]

  the things that are concentrating on with their web stuff like with those [TS]

  power saving things and GPU acceleration are actually things that make their [TS]

  overall platform better it's better when Mobile Safari doesn't kill your battery [TS]

  it's better for selling iPhone right and so they're doing that it's not really a [TS]

  native app thing it's like that's that's our platform our platform is this entire [TS]

  product not just software runs on and so Apple has been doing things to make [TS]

  their web browser like every other part of this is the more power efficient and [TS]

  I don't think anyone else is as motivated to do that maybe and read a [TS]

  little bit but you know it's it's a strange mix of prioritization there and [TS]

  I think the what we're seeing is the result of different companies with [TS]

  different different goals and different priorities i just i just do worry that [TS]

  as these companies drift off the directions is natural for them to [TS]

  dressed in that things will start separating too much that's why I read [TS]

  that cold hard to go home things like those kind disappointing to me to see [TS]

  that Apple and Google couldn't stick together and put all their effort behind [TS]

  making great web browsing engine that Apple and Google's directions and pace [TS]

  with so different that they had to split and I worry about Apple being left [TS]

  behind me simply because their web rendering engine priorities are so much [TS]

  different than Google's and different then web developers and perhaps not in [TS]

  the best interest of the users in the long term as you both have said everyone [TS]

  is acting in their own interests and that in turn in and of itself I don't [TS]

  think that's unreasonable or bad it's just I like you just said John I I would [TS]

  hope that all of these different companies interest eventually kind of [TS]

  come back together over time and I think it was john that that's a moment ago few [TS]

  minutes ago [TS]

  you know if it comes if it comes to be that that knew that the new food tag is [TS]

  just the coolest thing in the world and Apple hasn't done it and everyone else [TS]

  has and it's freakin awesome [TS]

  you bet you but that Apple's get implemented it may not be as quick as [TS]

  you want but it'll happen I don't see them just completely you'll see on their [TS]

  hands and going lalalalala we don't care so I understand everyones perspective [TS]

  here but I just don't see it as near as big a deal as as no one apparently did [TS]

  when I get back to you know motivations here perspectives so much of this is the [TS]

  perspective of web developers who see this world taking off of native apps and [TS]

  who just want to stick with what they know what they're invested in what they [TS]

  believe is right which is the web app and they don't want to come making [TS]

  that's especially for the platform they don't use so you know just like iOS [TS]

  developers are you like me like I use iOS and iOS developer I just can't [TS]

  address Android in a way that is good because I i I don't see it I don't use [TS]

  it I choose not to have it be a part of my my devices [TS]

  my life and so I just can't serve Android and their development world is [TS]

  not used to that the world is used to be able to serve everybody with only [TS]

  writing one version of the site especially in a modern browsers are so [TS]

  good with with CSS and stuff like you could really just write one version of [TS]

  the site and have work pretty much everywhere without a whole lot of effort [TS]

  and without a whole lot hacks and which is way better than used to be [TS]

  thanks to web standards John but you know you have to look at this is like a [TS]

  web developers really just of course they want to stick with what they know [TS]

  of course they want to use all the knowledge and the tools and the and the [TS]

  code they already have but the fact is this is a role of native apps now and [TS]

  there there is just there is nothing from users saying we want web apps to [TS]

  come back and get better so we can stop using these native apps that that's just [TS]

  not the way we live in and maybe it is and some of these standards are about [TS]

  pushing web apps into becoming native app replacements maybe that's not the [TS]

  right goal you know maybe maybe just yelling at native apps and saying we're [TS]

  coming after you with our old stuff just wait till it catches up just you'll see [TS]

  it'll be there will be there next year maybe that is actually a path towards [TS]

  faster relevance I don't know I i've i've said things in the past that are [TS]

  very skeptical of the future of the web browser being the front and for apps [TS]

  like you know if you look at so many new things that matter a lot like Instagram [TS]

  when it came up and it didn't even have any website whatsoever and then headed [TS]

  for a while but look at things like that like Instagram rose up and was bought [TS]

  four billion dollars before it even had a website at all [TS]

  did anything useful think it's crazy and I think the website still didn't do that [TS]

  much and you can you can look at examples like that that was granted a [TS]

  long time ago but these examples just keep happening now and you can say you [TS]

  know maybe maybe you know I am like I've hit my train to this web this web [TS]

  standards in this web app thing and that's what I'm gonna invest all my [TS]

  professional life and career in [TS]

  maybe that training you know maybe the right there is coming to an end I don't [TS]

  have any more metaphors I can jump in here but like that might not be the best [TS]

  thing both career wise financially or for your users are for your company like [TS]

  these new platforms company right now you know we went through a period where [TS]

  web apps it was the glory days of web apps like from from like 25 2005 to like [TS]

  you know 2013 2014 at the glory days of web apps of like that was the place to [TS]

  be to succeed to make a big start up to make as as fold after or whatever that [TS]

  was the place to be now it that's very clearly not the place to do those things [TS]

  now [TS]

  apps are the place to do those things and you know you can look at the way web [TS]

  developers talk about the things they need the things they want the future [TS]

  they see and look at look at other industries that have been made less [TS]

  relevant or less successful by technological change [TS]

  look at statements made by publishers of magazines and magazine like websites [TS]

  look at statements made by a record industry is about music business and you [TS]

  can see you know it isn't that bad but you can kinda see some parallels there [TS]

  like I I really do think that web developers would be best served by you [TS]

  know sure if you get this is what you care about keep pushing on it keep doing [TS]

  what you want but keep an open mind the idea that maybe in ten years [TS]

  web development won't reach this point that you want to reach maybe native apps [TS]

  will will keep the whole they have on them [TS]

  technology moves in these areas it it is not always as open or standards-based as [TS]

  idealist wanted to be sometimes you have a span of like 10 years ago Microsoft in [TS]

  the nineties sometimes have a span of like 10 years where one company does [TS]

  control a lot and you just have to deal with that you have to work within that [TS]

  you have to find ways to succeed and get your business done in an environment and [TS]

  you know what john has said about you know opened being better for everybody [TS]

  is true in theory and and it has a lot of benefits but in practice it doesn't [TS]

  always work out that way it doesn't always happen you don't always have [TS]

  those chances and so you have to work with in whatever area your career is [TS]

  happening in at this moment and where it's going to go now [TS]

  you have to work within that just pragmatically ideally yes ideally things [TS]

  are different [TS]

  pragmatically this is how the real world works if you make it sound like you [TS]

  can't get a job as a web developer will be on the web will be around longer than [TS]

  Windows Phone I mean don't worry about it well that's not saying much the web [TS]

  will be fine like it's just a question of like relative rates of of development [TS]

  like I don't I don't know I don't know what no motivation is himself as Android [TS]

  developer know where to look like it you know obviously want to make her happy [TS]

  that things but I've seen similar complaints from other people and I don't [TS]

  think it's all personally motivated fact most of it is kind of like altruistic [TS]

  hippy dippy like we don't know we don't want a future controlled by a small [TS]

  number of companies we want a future controlled by nobody in the you know in [TS]

  the in the Brent Simmons RSS you know men Reese microblogging get your own [TS]

  domain Marco Arment host your own email sense of the world [TS]

  word independence that our future isn't dictated by a small number of people who [TS]

  runs in very large and very powerful companies tried the web is as a hedge [TS]

  against that and if we give up on the web and say well I maybe it's just [TS]

  learned during native apps like every every person who does that every time a [TS]

  company moves in that direction is its kind of ceding control giving up on the [TS]

  dreams that you know all three other people have asked did you rent Manton me [TS]

  for that matter [TS]

  have expressed about future defined in our own terms but we sort of on our own [TS]

  information right and we're where we don't have to do where companies don't [TS]

  have the power to end our careers at the flick of the switch or change the rules [TS]

  on us like that's that's what the open lab is about and so I don't think it's [TS]

  so much about I'm worried about my personal career so I'm gonna write this [TS]

  thing about so far is the new I try to make apple do the thing that I want them [TS]

  to do so I can do the things like you read that is just like that it's fucking [TS]

  startups like starts all about the web now start so about apps who knows what [TS]

  the heck starts will be about the next couple of decades maybe [TS]

  like biotech I have no idea but I think that is that separate from the [TS]

  overarching discussion of what is going to define the future of technology and [TS]

  like we define it by you know I sort of did anyone who participates in the [TS]

  development community finds it like you know you want to learn director [TS]

  discussing this who has a very strong strange feelings about programming and [TS]

  development these days but many did iOS development erodes ongoing in OpenGL and [TS]

  he's currently having fantasies of writing web application entirely with [TS]

  the WebGL the canvas tag is that still a web application as we define it why [TS]

  would he be doing that why wouldn't you just write about be certainly really [TS]

  good native app developer he's not doing it because he's afraid that he won't be [TS]

  here he knows how to rein it about right [TS]

  it's because he doesn't want to be under the thumb of Apple or Microsoft or [TS]

  Android or anyone else and that it was i think is the underlying motivation of at [TS]

  least some of the people who are sort of behind the hey let's make the web a [TS]

  better place to rate applications think it's not so much about trying to defend [TS]

  their small domain knowledge because if they can write web applications they [TS]

  can't do any other job is a great example he can obviously right native [TS]

  applications right that's not why is doing that that's not why people like [TS]

  every zelman or going home on the web [TS]

  trade it's it's sort of trying to ensure a better future for everybody and I like [TS]

  to think that that is the the majority of the things that motivate everyone on [TS]

  the Safari team everybody in the blink team at Google everybody doing anything [TS]

  with web technologies that they're motivated in large part by the idea that [TS]

  even if they work at Google or Microsoft or Apple that the web is known by [TS]

  anybody our final sponsor this week is fracture fracture print your photos in [TS]

  vivid color directly on Glasgow to fracture me.com it's so sad that we take [TS]

  so many photos these days and they just they just pretty much just love [TS]

  Instagram or photo libraries and you don't really ever print them or show [TS]

  them you know in any meaningful way to display them in their house or anything [TS]

  it's just like they live online and [TS]

  then you know that said there's there's no like artifact of them [TS]

  fracture believes you should change that you know you should get some get some [TS]

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  you get the photos printed directly onto glass this is a really it's a it's a [TS]

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  has a thin layer of glass and the photos printed on the back side of it facing [TS]

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  with the way to CT larry was on top and so she could get scratched from the top [TS]

  and was a terrible design a fresh prince on the fracture print the print is below [TS]

  the glass shining through the glass is so thin that it looks like it's on the [TS]

  glass it looks like you're looking at a a glass print and then behind it is a [TS]

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  easy to mount and it's also very lightweight and very thin and it looks [TS]

  awesome so it doesn't need a frame it is its own frame basically doesn't afraid [TS]

  because edge to edge and it just looks nice and clean finished and modern [TS]

  that's why I keep your comments on these things because people keep looking and [TS]

  saying hey what's that because you have another I like frame things are my [TS]

  office from their prince in like big posters and stuff but the fracture [TS]

  princess looks so much nicer more modern they were also a lot cheaper honestly [TS]

  compared to framing and everything else it's it's a no-brainer fracture prints [TS]

  are great we've heard from so many people who have also taken fracture [TS]

  Princeton and just love them I had an idea earlier I don't know last year so [TS]

  much that I printed my app icons on the small square fractures and those are [TS]

  like myself trophies I have hanging on my wall the apps I've made something [TS]

  also wash with like podcast artwork I guess it worked your website traffic on [TS]

  if you're if you're a developer sorry there's all sorts of of grieves for [TS]

  correction David great gift we've given them as gifts [TS]

  both prank gift like the new one just the tip and also real gifts they they [TS]

  are grateful that it it's a great service it these are great prints so [TS]

  prices start at just 15 bucks for a five by five inch square to square sides [TS]

  agree for Instagram also obviously that's probably [TS]

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  human beings in Gainesville Florida they put everything you need to hang it up [TS]

  right in the box that comes with the backing it comes with either the desk [TS]

  stand if you were to that or comes at a little picture now if you want that it [TS]

  is great I i love it it's just keep order these things are so good [TS]

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  know that you came from the show thank you very much to fracture for sponsoring [TS]

  our show once again go to fracture me.com use coupon code ATP 15 ok so was [TS]

  it earlier today I believe Microsoft announced big layoffs and someone was [TS]

  kind enough to put some snippets in the show notes and I will capitalize on [TS]

  their hard work and claim it as my own Microsoft Corp net today announced plans [TS]

  to restructure the company's phone hardware business to better focus and [TS]

  online resources which typically is business speak for we screwed up [TS]

  microsoft also announced reduction of up to 7,800 positions primarily in the [TS]

  phone business as a result the company will record an impairment charge of [TS]

  approximately six or seven point six billion dollars related tasks associated [TS]

  with the acquisition of the Nokia devices and services business in [TS]

  addition to a restructuring charge of approximately 750 million 250 million [TS]

  Yates and just for reference isn't that they're basically saying like the entire [TS]

  press repaid for Nokia as a write off isn't that basically what they paid for [TS]

  it since they bought a Nokia device that have been lost ten billion dollars on it [TS]

  is not a great acquisition and like I always wonder why I don't understand [TS]

  enough to know someone is highly motivated to make these things happen [TS]

  right someone is highly motivated to marry to large companies together but [TS]

  it's going to be a big payday [TS]

  for them right but anybody from the outside and probably most people on the [TS]

  inside [TS]

  know that the joining of these two giant companies despite all the talk of [TS]

  synergy is going to be a terrible idea like nothing you know nothing good is [TS]

  going to come from this multi-billion dollar acquisition that the chances are [TS]

  really really really high but instead what's going to happen is more losses [TS]

  more layoffs just like bad things will happen I mean it's possible to have any [TS]

  possible that good acquisitions have a bye next was perhaps the best [TS]

  acquisition in the history of the world [TS]

  value value was like four hundred million dollars for next or whatever it [TS]

  was you look at what they gotta deal tremendous right all sorts of like I [TS]

  bought a small company that was a great idea because it helped me make this [TS]

  product that you know whatever buying the company that you liked hid sensor or [TS]

  strategic investments and other small companies but when it's like a company [TS]

  that's in trouble buying some other company for a really really big amount [TS]

  of money I just always seems like to me from the outside that seriously someone [TS]

  thinks is a good idea like this is not going to save them this is going to be a [TS]

  disaster and most of the time you're right but somebody in all these [TS]

  companies must be both incentivize to do it and in the position where they can [TS]

  make it happen and those people are laughing all the way to the bank are [TS]

  retiring to their private islands or whatever it is they're doing but [TS]

  Microsoft is a company if you care about Microsoft is accompanied them by Nokia [TS]

  or for that matter [TS]

  Google buying Motorola all seem like really bad ideas in retrospect it also [TS]

  really bad ideas at the time like maybe there was nothing else they could do in [TS]

  this is the best of the bunch of bad options but boys is very disappointing I [TS]

  don't you think though that I do agree with you but don't you think in a [TS]

  situation where Microsoft was arguably a little bit on the ropes was a year or [TS]

  two ago when they when they bought a Nokia Nokia I was pronounced it wrong [TS]

  sorry if they have a lot of money in the bank and their kind on the ropes why not [TS]

  give it a shot like I i agree that intellectually it didn't never seemed [TS]

  like it was going to work it just seemed like a bad idea but [TS]

  if you're if you're in a bad position but you have a pretty big war chest what [TS]

  else are you really supposed to do what you pull down on R&D and hope you find [TS]

  out some good it kinda seemed like at the point that they bought Nokia their [TS]

  whole strategy about like are we going to make our own phones are we going to [TS]

  make Windows phones that have other people make films like trying to waffle [TS]

  between the Apple strategy and the Microsoft Windows strategy where do we [TS]

  just make the software and you make other people like the hardware or have [TS]

  we decided that that doesn't work anymore and we need to make our own [TS]

  hardware because he can't do both very well liked its cool in Andhra likely [TS]

  make Nexus phones but they want anyone else to use Android but they let people [TS]

  do whatever they want then ribbon I really excellent have more tightly like [TS]

  it is doubtful strategy but for the most part of his been straightforward and [TS]

  Microsoft has been in between strategies for a while the window strategy was [TS]

  clear we make the software you make the hardware Usk each other into your march [TS]

  20 in your business we make money hand over fist right that is very clear [TS]

  strategy they tried to do the same thing with mobile and it just never worked out [TS]

  and so they doing this slow motion transition into kinda like the apples [TS]

  right like once the bug Nokia was like so are you all in on the Apple strategy [TS]

  basically bought a phone company you're gonna make Windows phones running [TS]

  Windows that you make like that seems like we didn't but you're also still [TS]

  like what do you guys even do just it was it's like they didn't want to do [TS]

  what Steve Jobs did when he came back without Apple was immediately make the [TS]

  super hard choices are we doing phones are we not doing and it seems like they [TS]

  spent ten billion dollars to delay a few years in saying we're not doing the [TS]

  least not this way this way where we make our own phones and I can only [TS]

  understand like the next caught up in the show's here as such in the dumbest [TS]

  thing we're moving from a strategy to grow a stand-alone phone business to a [TS]

  strategy to grow and create a vibrant windows ecosystem including our own [TS]

  first party family what the hell does that even mean [TS]

  mean you're not going to have a stand-alone phone business you want to [TS]

  have a vibrant windows ecosystem fine including Iran first-party device family [TS]

  with no you just try to do this middle road like we want to have a vibrant [TS]

  ecosystem are also gonna make your own phones like he also wants to focus his [TS]

  phone business and making every kind of fun for everybody [TS]

  either just say we lost in mobile we were too late we moved too slowly made [TS]

  too many mistakes were gone or pick one thing strategy and focus on it [TS]

  laser-like and their current waffling it just seems like you're just dragging [TS]

  things out and really making things better I think you're right cases like [TS]

  the Nokia acquisitions like the one thing we don't have a lot of time but we [TS]

  do have a lot of money so let's just go for it maybe it will help maybe it will [TS]

  maybe you could say well it's too late you never gonna get traction but who [TS]

  knows they could have maybe something could have happened they could have had [TS]

  a particular feature in a new Windows Phone that caught the public imagination [TS]

  and suddenly you know I don't like it was it's conceivable but it just seemed [TS]

  that like they're not quite ready at these layoffs are actually kind of a [TS]

  good thing we're not quite ready to do that crazy brutal immediate cuts that [TS]

  apples with apples gonna banker Microsoft is not right so Apple was [TS]

  better motivated to do the cuts that it did Microsoft probably needs to do the [TS]

  same kind of cutting it just is you know because they're not in such dire straits [TS]

  they're not quite ready to do that in like deciding to know a company like [TS]

  concentrates on as your mobile services and psych server-side backends kind of [TS]

  like a better friendlier less creepy Google where the hell they've been to [TS]

  you and of course they still on the desktop and Alyssa like that company [TS]

  doesn't seem to include mobile as an essential component that strategy they [TS]

  want to have that strategy they want to say we sell the enterprise we own the [TS]

  desktop PC space we also have windows [TS]

  mobile services type things for for vendors of all platforms including other [TS]

  mobile platforms and by the way we also on her own phone platform and our own [TS]

  phones and have a phone operating system to other peoples phones like I don't [TS]

  know microsoft today as the market something keep doing that so it's weird [TS]

  that I'm rooting for Microsoft to to get it scrapped together a thought they [TS]

  really were but I mean I guess I'm just a retrospect yelling at them some more [TS]

  acquiring ok I guess this is the right move to move on but it's tough for all [TS]

  the people who are getting laid off and I still don't understand these quotes in [TS]

  this press release about this tragedy moving forward still seems like they're [TS]

  still crossing their fingers and hoping somehow that Windows Phone will be [TS]

  viable in some form of a question why do you say it's weird for you to be rooting [TS]

  for Microsoft wild why is that weird cuz I hate Microsoft a long time but what [TS]

  have they done to you lately i dont im not gonna make the analogy I was making [TS]

  him because it's terrible and people should yell at me much more than they do [TS]

  about making it so I'm not going to make it again but yeah I explain this in [TS]

  nicer terms many times before when I was growing up it was so clear to me that [TS]

  Apple had the better operating system and technology and everything for [TS]

  desktop computing and the company that one in the market was Microsoft with an [TS]

  inferior product as far as I was concerned and I'll never forgive them [TS]

  for destroyed like even though is only a span of like 10 or 20 years where [TS]

  Microsoft was the dominant force in desktop computing that was an important [TS]

  ten to twenty years in my particular lifespan and they've earned it all by by [TS]

  winning on the basis of merit that I did not consider important for the most part [TS]

  one so I hold a grudge against them just silly and immature in reality I'm [TS]

  actually working for them so explain to you why do I ever have any kind of [TS]

  resistance to Microsoft that's why I well understand what you're saying it is [TS]

  big of you and i'm not i'm not patronizing its big of you to say that [TS]

  you're holding a grudge being a baby about it but not to turn this into [TS]

  accidentally locked but do you feel don't you think that it that Apple [TS]

  needed the [TS]

  the domination of Microsoft and their daughter demise or near demise [TS]

  to to rise from the ashes and become the powerhouse there today it makes a more [TS]

  dramatic story but they didn't need it to do with you know tonight if Apple had [TS]

  become the dominant force in desktop computing I would have had a happier [TS]

  lately I don't know that it really could have ended up this way like I mean [TS]

  there's no there's no way for us to know right but I'm not entirely sure that the [TS]

  situation like this situation and that makes a really good story because a [TS]

  company that almost goes out of business then becomes the biggest company in the [TS]

  world is a great story right and the return of a leader as a great narrative [TS]

  but the current place where in with the current Apple I don't know if this is [TS]

  the best of all possible worlds at this point right like i said im I'm rooting [TS]

  for Microsoft to get its act together I would like to see it concentrate on the [TS]

  things that is actually good at I still have a a taste issue with Microsoft to [TS]

  use the old Steve Jobs slam on them in a lot of the things they do I find [TS]

  technically and aesthetically displeasing for reasons that are also [TS]

  probably teddy and silly but just even down to the use of backslashes in all [TS]

  capital letters like stuff like that matters to me it's stupid [TS]

  whatever it does I feel like my my sensibilities did not match up with my [TS]

  sensibilities are much greater match 290 terrible sensibilities and unique [TS]

  sensibilities and combine them to then you have modern Apple sensibilities [TS]

  which I'm still pretty much you know on the same wavelength with not been on the [TS]

  same way of life with Microsoft most things and you know the most of the [TS]

  major manifestation of my grudges have to admit in in the gaming world where I [TS]

  still don't have an xbox and I can possibly help it and they bought bungee [TS]

  did I mention that anyway it was a lot of bitter for many years don't say so [TS]

  when I was in high school and middle school [TS]

  I was picked up by crazy they were there were so many people who picked on me and [TS]

  some of it I wasn't helping but a lot of it just I was done you know so I had a [TS]

  rough time and so in college I was home for one of the summer's and I i was I [TS]

  had a job [TS]

  good internship at Nationwide Insurance and one morning I i stopped off at the [TS]

  at the coffee shop in the neighborhood I grew up in and the guy behind the [TS]

  counter to serve me was one of the biggest bullies to me in in school and [TS]

  so here I was like going to my nice job and being served by this guy he used to [TS]

  really be able to me and he was so burned out and so out of it he look even [TS]

  hit by a train like he he clearly had gone through some really rough times and [TS]

  was not having the life that anybody would have said I want that life he [TS]

  clearly you know you need to get our stuff together and clearly just wasn't [TS]

  and here he was serving me you know after making fun of me for years and I [TS]

  felt bad for him like I i i wasnt I didn't look at him and say you know oh [TS]

  here's a guy I hated in high school I just don't like man that is so said he'd [TS]

  he was so burned out I don't think even recognize me I don't like I don't see [TS]

  them in like three years I don't think he even knew who I was that it to me [TS]

  like hitting microsoft today but don't make them like is that I feel bad for [TS]

  them I I wish they would do better but I i still psi hate them know now that I [TS]

  like I said the current day I still have a static differences with their tastes [TS]

  like the technologies they make and the sort of the movies they make the even [TS]

  down to the hardware design I could doesn't quite match up with with my [TS]

  taste Metro was maybe a little bit closer but still not quite imagine I do [TS]

  give them full credit for a sort of leading the charge in that new design [TS]

  but I like Apple's interpretation of it better [TS]

  right so I'm not I don't spend my time worrying about them but even his thing [TS]

  they still dominate on the desktop that still annoys me the idea that someone [TS]

  who most people who own personal computers do not own Apple personal [TS]

  computers or Linux on the desktop or whatever that can be mostly on Windows [TS]

  then I don't like Windows I don't like PCs I don't like PC hardware only [TS]

  Windows operating system I like any of it and that's still the default PC still [TS]

  exists and that annoys me at like 12 Apple the biggest in the world and I [TS]

  guess it doesn't matter anymore cuz who cares no late-term blah blah but still [TS]

  that's the real thing that is happening now Microsoft Exchange still a real [TS]

  thing and I don't like it doesn't work rate I don't think Microsoft Office on [TS]

  the Mac and I have to use it work as Microsoft thomas was exchanged in you [TS]

  know SharePoint is the real thing like these things still annoy me from day to [TS]

  day so there are actual real sources of complaints I would like to see much of [TS]

  the company [TS]

  get it back together because I think it's go with smart people who can do [TS]

  great things I would like them to do those great things instead of trying to [TS]

  pretend they're still the old Microsoft Nick and they can dominate everywhere [TS]

  and the game of things kind of sideshows Microsoft is a little bit of a usurper [TS]

  there it's like well can't just leave gaming on those again back in the days [TS]

  of marketing you doing everything they go of course we're gonna have a gaming [TS]

  console yet we're coming soon every industry and you know it's mostly just [TS]

  showing us his xbox is a really good platform and they've done a really good [TS]

  job in a market in fact the Xbox with a model for every other business there's [TS]

  growing up in because they start with Xbox even through many scripts including [TS]

  crappy for a generation hardware and the red ring of death they kept sticking to [TS]

  it they they've learned from their mistakes again if they had done what [TS]

  they've done with the Xbox and all the other business they've been a way better [TS]

  position than they are now that's at I'm still not been getting what if I can [TS]

  help it and also I was thinking this generation the ps4 has the better [TS]

  hardware I like the I like the trade often compromises that Sony made by this [TS]

  generation hardware better mass generation probably had the better [TS]

  hardware in the ps3 but I was the last generation I was intrigued by the ps3's [TS]

  crazy a CPU how could you not be intrigued by your CPU designer so [TS]

  anyway this is not I don't spend my days making about Microsoft and they should [TS]

  let you guys brought it up and in the context of these layoffs and everything [TS]

  I'm frustrated with Microsoft like not I don't know I would like to see Microsoft [TS]

  rise from the ashes from as a company I can love that hasn't happened yet but [TS]

  what could they do to turn into a company that you would love well I mean [TS]

  the Xbox is a good start to the one that you just said you would never ever ever [TS]

  buy right but like the what they did with that product like how they how they [TS]

  behaved how did the how did they enter the new Mario Newmarket how what did [TS]

  they do how did the company's stand behind it as opposed to like you know [TS]

  forget about the can be screwed it up or we're not going to do the courier [TS]

  all the times windows CEO Windows Mobile like they never had the courage of their [TS]

  convictions in so many other things where they screwed up where the Xbox [TS]

  they stuck with it through thick and thin and there was a healthy life in and [TS]

  they've gotten better and better with every generation and even the Kinect [TS]

  which they kinda tried to stick with which does not really working out for [TS]

  them that was that was a bold daring interesting move right so take those [TS]

  type of things and apply that to pick your market any other kind of also doing [TS]

  that and and web services back and I don't you know there's not there's them [TS]

  that Amazon ec2 and s3 and audio services they do in this Google stuff [TS]

  that is not everyone in the market is a little weird part 2 and it's also very [TS]

  young market so it's hard to know what they're doing there but certainly what [TS]

  they've done in mobile is the opposite of what really you know not standing [TS]

  behind what they're doing being really confused about what they're trying to do [TS]

  not doing anything particularly older daring not looking to learn from their [TS]

  mistakes like deciding whether we're going to make this offering ever else [TS]

  makes the hardware over into the Apple strategy being really late to the game [TS]

  you could argue they relate to the gaming consoles but another [TS]

  and like console console generations are kind of a recent point in a way that [TS]

  mobile is not like every year this new cell phones but doesn't give you a new [TS]

  chance to see who's going to be on top this year like the market shares that [TS]

  are built from year to year so yeah I have some say I have history with [TS]

  Microsoft let's leave it at that [TS]

  it's complicated I have a history of it comes down to like and who is [TS]

  Microsoft's not a person donates has gone like I don't have any ill will [TS]

  against individual people there but you can conceptualize the collective actions [TS]

  of many people under a single corporate banner as a thing and I have history [TS]

  with that thing I mean whatever man whatever makes you happy [TS]

  history with Apple to everything can do no wrong no different history of them [TS]

  had very different history of them yeah talk sometime about the performance [TS]

  series of Max thanks a lot for three spots this week however back please and [TS]

  fracture and we'll see you next week [TS]

  now the show they didn't even mean to begin [TS]

  it was accidental [TS]

  accidental [TS]

  Casey [TS]

  because it was accidental shown to be a team markle [TS]

  have you ever used it as a computer actually ate my first time was within [TS]

  the last week or two I used vmi is this is a new VMware since its earliest so I [TS]

  I was as most of you know I was a Windows user from the dawn of time that [TS]

  I that I had a computer up through 2004 and you know it's kind of faded away [TS]

  into the Mac full time by about five or six and so I totally missed I don't even [TS]

  use Windows Vista I was always on XP until I until I quit never used seven [TS]

  never used a and haven't even seen ten really [TS]

  7 occasional VMs your browser testing but nothing beyond that well this past [TS]

  weekend I was at my kids preschool and then they knew a new computer so they [TS]

  asked if I could take a look one of the computers was having trouble it wouldn't [TS]

  it couldn't see the printer is offline it was running Windows 8 and the only [TS]

  reason I know that is getting kicked to the chili [TS]

  the squares screen between that and the desktop environment and even having been [TS]

  a previously Windows Professional like I would I would be paid by people to fix [TS]

  their Windows computers like I was pretty good at it but that all my [TS]

  knowledge for Windows is 10 years old even having that that background and now [TS]

  being pretty good max this system was completely inscrutable to me like it was [TS]

  so ridiculously confusing trying to figure out how to do things like turn [TS]

  the wifi off and turn it back on or like where's the printer control panel [TS]

  where's the print queue so I can delete this document that I sent four times out [TS]

  of it it was baffling and I would like you know right click on something and of [TS]

  course it doesn't help that PC hardware is awful so I kept like right click left [TS]

  to right click and everything to the track that was terrible and it was just [TS]

  unbelievable like how incredibly confusing and horrible Windows 8 really [TS]

  was to do something you know that's beyond test something and I you like [TS]

  you know beyond that of like okay here's a computer that is having what is really [TS]

  a very minor problem how do you fix it and like and the promise of being the [TS]

  computer was offline completely just had had no internet connection through the [TS]

  wifi and so that's between I eat so I test the connection let you know Gotye [TS]

  you type in google.com going back and forth between now and then like the wifi [TS]

  control panel is really in the desktop environments that some some you know I [TS]

  think there and then back to you in a different role held my god I know I know [TS]

  Windows fans generally hate windows 8 for that reason but I had no idea how [TS]

  bad it was it I'm I'm shocked that they shipped at it so it's ridiculous so my [TS]

  entire [TS]

  my parents are all on my last my brothers are on iOS but I believe [TS]

  they're both running PCs I read somewhere years ago I can't remember [TS]

  specifically where it was but somebody basically said that they told their [TS]

  family member a new market for all I know but somebody said they told their [TS]

  family listen I am going to only field tech support questions about me [TS]

  ok it was so weird values they always right so I have taken that same [TS]

  hard-line that worked well with my family [TS]

  Aaron's family my brother in law does seem sort of thing that I do and he is [TS]

  the eldest child and he can do no wrong and so he's continually recommends tells [TS]

  them they continually constantly recommend air by Dell's granted they [TS]

  constantly [TS]

  moan about how they never work but they still going by Dell's anyway my [TS]

  sister-in-law who has a dau said dole something isn't working I forget [TS]

  specifically what it was now and she's in Chi wanted help with it and I went to [TS]

  you use it and this is the first lady's windows 8 for more than four seconds [TS]

  without like a co-worker telling me click here click here click here click [TS]

  here i genuinely I went to do a Windows key R which in general like XP and [TS]

  Windows 7 is run right right it it basically brings up the Start Run [TS]

  in Windows is that have a start button so I could type I think I'll try to get [TS]

  the command prompt or whatever and I tried to do that and I couldn't because [TS]

  if memory serves commander Windows key R didn't do anything because why because [TS]

  there is no start button anymore I was completely completely crippled I didn't [TS]

  know what to do with myself and I basically looked at it shook my head and [TS]

  said you're gonna have to ask your brother cuz I got nothing and I don't [TS]

  understand why they keep going back to these machines because all they do is [TS]

  have problems and all they do is come to me and say can you fix this and for [TS]

  everyone I typically say no by Mac my sister-in-law's a little younger she's [TS]

  in her late first or second year of college I felt bad for me at least take [TS]

  a look and no I even if I wanted to I couldn't we can figure it out now let me [TS]

  remind you that day to day I live in Windows that is what my regular J O B [TS]

  job does I could not figure out what to do with Windows 8 now in the defense of [TS]

  Windows Windows 7 is actually excellent it really is very very good and I've [TS]

  heard that Windows 10 writes a lot of the wrong side windows 8 made it much in [TS]

  the same way that seven raided a lot of the wrong said that this time made but [TS]

  by god I could not agree with you more Marco 8 is so so so bad that it has the [TS]

  problem that everyone who is familiar with the previous version of windows [TS]

  like you too is cranky when you change where things are so windows 8 tried to [TS]

  be like well we know people are going to be cranky at Smith so can we have a [TS]

  bunch of new stuff but also try to keep the old stuff like they do have too much [TS]

  stuff for people that they didn't want things to move and they didn't do it [TS]

  like a clean sheet kind of a West Nine West End transition words like that [TS]

  everything's gone forget about classic Mac OS is backward compatible for a [TS]

  little while but it's going away they didn't do that either [TS]

  and so on Windows 10 their backs like like well we were too timid to make the [TS]

  big transition so let's just roll back the most most of the annoying things and [TS]

  try to make it slightly more familiar for people who like 2007 [TS]

  and no more like this and it's like they they have not you know they have not [TS]

  heard that had the courage of their convictions when it came to their [TS]

  desktop operating system either and so Windows 8 and Windows 10 like these are [TS]

  the various times the recommended thing that that Microsoft would sell you you [TS]

  know for the dominant personal computing platform on the planet and that should [TS]

  be a setting to everybody involved no but I mean it isn't it is not just bad [TS]

  because it was different like that that the new interface [TS]

  even if you lived entirely in like the new squared interface for you couldn't [TS]

  live entirely certain things you had to go to the other one to do but like I [TS]

  would I would even go as far as to say that was actually bad it wasn't just [TS]

  that it was different or that it was mixed I would even say like the squares [TS]

  interface is itself bad call yes sure it was not called Metro anymore gotta [TS]

  called so like what you're talking about like this with the tiles like not just [TS]

  the the interface of the apps when they're running but that screen where [TS]

  you like have a bunch of tiles on a ribbon that you slide along and right [TS]

  i'm talking about like like the tile interface to launch and see what is [TS]

  happening there and the apps that run natively within it looked like the IEA [TS]

  switching into was natively in that in that environment as part of the unified [TS]

  strategy of like this works on tablets works on your phone has worked on [TS]

  desktop to try to make 1420 West type of 10 s paradigm is not one specific you I [TS]

  had that span 10 s that works know where I think that it works a lot better on [TS]

  phones on tablets may be a little bit too much of edge slightly crap but [TS]

  involves there you know kind of a swipe around and stuff and so the tiles idea [TS]

  like having active tiles are you can relay information instead of just that [TS]

  icons like there were a lot of good ideas buried in there but it was a bit [TS]

  off a lot maybe not more than they get you but they did a whole lot and then [TS]

  they just decided that they had 24 just practical reasons hedge their bets on [TS]

  the desktop and still kind of have the old windows lurking underneath [TS]

  everything and that's just didn't make anybody happy let me tell you another [TS]

  long boring story about my past when I was developing overcast the very first [TS]

  version [TS]

  of the podcast List screen like basically the roots green the first [TS]

  version of that I'd I designed and wrote as a collection of you with a column [TS]

  with like a tile view of podcasts and lucy's mother had to do this too I get [TS]

  this is not a new thing so I i assume that you have the title view of like a [TS]

  square tomorrow work it was a nice squares based interface and it looked [TS]

  really nice like it looked better than the longlist visually you look at all [TS]

  that so much cooler but I found as I was using it it would annoy me to like it [TS]

  just i couldnt browse it as easily as I can browse one single listing I have to [TS]

  like an exact your eyes back and forth in two columns and everything I just [TS]

  thought I'd like even though it looks nicer doesn't work as well it is not as [TS]

  good in my opinion as a list if that like I think Windows Phone everyone said [TS]

  when Windows Phone came out with this with this brand new interface of the of [TS]

  the Metro squares everyone said oh my god this is really interesting it's a [TS]

  cool new design and even I said it's it's a cool looking new design but even [TS]

  like you know like when I usually try to use a tile interface like Microsoft [TS]

  stores in the past and it is cool looking but it is doesn't mean it's a [TS]

  good interface and an apple is guilty of that offence many very often but it in [TS]

  general I don't think they did it as badly as my captain in anything but like [TS]

  you know Windows 8 if Windows Phone Windows Phone did it well people it [TS]

  would have only did it that well more people would have bought Windows Phone [TS]

  it worked better there than it did in the tablet PC as well because the screen [TS]

  so small you can't have like this massive fleet of tiles you basically [TS]

  have just one or two columns of things and so it was more manageable even like [TS]

  within the interface is going through contacts like they would have won parole [TS]

  he wasn't able to you but it also wasn't like this giant fleet of little tiles [TS]

  that you had to scramble through they basically forced by the narrowness of [TS]

  the device to have interfaces that were more more like if you were to wire [TS]

  friend who's really more like traditional schooling view it [TS]

  list rather than a giant great even like the sort of homes going thing maybe a [TS]

  two things side-by-side or three and it ends up being not too much unlike [TS]

  swiping from one home screen to the next as you saw the next set of things that [TS]

  little screen I don't know but whenever I heard from people who actually used it [TS]

  like like as their phones full-time either for a brief span or for for a [TS]

  long time ever noticed the same thing which is like this interface looks cool [TS]

  but it has a lot like this desire has a lot of flaws and it isn't as easy to use [TS]

  as you would think conceptually and get everyone agrees it's you know same thing [TS]

  with the Palm Pre and webOS everyone said the same thing about that Lee this [TS]

  is really cool it's interesting did have to do is like the tile interface is [TS]

  basically the current iOS multitasking things like they did actually have good [TS]

  I think interface ideas like how to do multitasking how to deal with a [TS]

  different things to scroll long time to pick them up you know things down from [TS]

  the top I think that much more good ideas I i think but still nobody bought [TS]

  them but yeah there's lots of reasons people under the Dementor interface [TS]

  suffered mostly I think from having too much influence from visual the visual [TS]

  design department like a lot of it was like a consistent visual theme across [TS]

  the open arms when it could have benefited from like it a little bit more [TS]

  influence from the days sort of mechanical usability side of things and [TS]

  that in recent Apple 2007 like obviously huge amount of visual influence the [TS]

  design individual part had a usability aspect to it but it seemed it seems [TS]

  clear that like the original iOS you can wire frame that with a bunch of boxes [TS]

  and say this is going to be an interface and then let loose the graphic designers [TS]

  on it to give it spit and polish and it just enhances the interface whereas the [TS]

  iOS 7 thing the visual IQ the wireframes uses do you like the money you have [TS]

  borders on the mic you have to do the whole look as to be complete to say this [TS]

  is what it's going to look like you can't wireframe it is what do you draw [TS]

  for the button [TS]

  finish pickles are not the best pixels so Metro look like it was entirely [TS]

  designed as like if you doing a magazine and you won't have the pamphlet the [TS]

  magazine and the coffee table book and have a consistent theme throughout them [TS]

  Metro is perfect but once is our speed interface that you have to use those [TS]

  those people who come with that invades the same people aspects of the same [TS]

  people come more with the you know the the information architecture user [TS]

  interface usability perspective that his hand in hand with the look and feel of [TS]

  it but there's a balance between them you want to look nice you want to have a [TS]

  consistent visual theme be also wanted to be usable and I think Metro just went [TS]

  a little bit too far into the well but this just looks so good [TS]

  across all platforms they must be usable and it wasn't as useful as they helped [TS]

  it's funny because just yesterday I was talking with a co-worker and we have a [TS]

  handful co-workers that go to build every year which is in moscow any it's [TS]

  only three days but its base it's basically Microsoft WPC and unlike WDC [TS]

  the door prizes that build are not jackets there like last year they got an [TS]

  expo and and Nokia phone this year they got some sort of convertible PC which I [TS]

  guess is kind of a piece of crap but it's still a whole freakin computer [TS]

  anyways what my co-workers is still rocking this Nokia phone from here a [TS]

  little over a year ago and obviously to Windows Phone and I was talking to him [TS]

  about it just yesterday and I asked him you know if you were to buy a new phone [TS]

  tomorrow because I think it was complaining about something I don't [TS]

  recall specifically what they asked if your gonna buy a new phone tomorrow what [TS]

  would you buy you know what you get like what is that the Galaxy S six or [TS]

  whatever that new hotness Android phone is that I've genuinely genuinely hurt [TS]

  very very good things about so as to be able to get the Galaxy S 60 would you [TS]

  can actually no I get an iPhone states are to be honest I probably try to wait [TS]

  until the success and then I'd get that and this is a guy who loves his surface [TS]

  who has issued a getting a new MacBook Pro it replaces existing macro and [TS]

  instead got this just behemoth of a Dell what they call them like portable [TS]

  desktops or whatever [TS]

  so it's a laptop in theory but it weighs nine hundred and four pounds the power [TS]

  supply weighs about twice what my laptop does then he got that because it's a [TS]

  pragmatic I do windows work at work and so I thought you know what I'm gonna get [TS]

  a Windows machine will get this tell him I asked about the Dell as well are you [TS]

  happy with that he said well the trackpad is unusable the keyboard sucks [TS]

  it weighs 1,000,000 pounds in the power supply is worse but you know when it's [TS]

  sitting at a desk connected to external monitors experts say great machine I [TS]

  love it I can put seven hard drives in it [TS]

  33 optical drive see all 42 gigs RAM and a partridge in a pear tree but anyway I [TS]

  bring all this up to say that he is he is a guy that really does love Microsoft [TS]

  stuff and he was telling me I am definitely switch away from his phone as [TS]

  soon as the opportunity arises as today's announcement came before today's [TS]

  announcement is easy to lose faith in the future [TS]

  platform and you know like is this is their bright future in Windows Phones [TS]

  you know like didn't seem like the applications that I want that aren't [TS]

  there today are going to be there tomorrow they're going to be great new [TS]

  Windows Phone hardware like to talk about the same thing that happened to [TS]

  Apple you know people want people to stay that platform is really difficult [TS]

  ever get it back and so yeah even people I think would love it if there is a new [TS]

  Windows Phone that was like the current 10 songs but better and always and had [TS]

  better software and a new version the operating system and all the you know [TS]

  that they would keep buying those especially the thought that they would [TS]

  be able to go to the Windows Phone app store and get all the apps that they [TS]

  want but at this point it seems clear that even if that's what you like it's [TS]

  not like me with the iPod touches like you know that's not that's not it is not [TS]

  a bright future and that maybe see cure phone satisfaction elsewhere [TS]