524: We're Making a Trifle

0:00:00[Intro music]

0:00:09From Relay, this is Upgrade, episode 524 for August 12th, 2024. This episode is brought to you by Unipizza Ovens and DeleteMe. My name is Mike Hurley and I am joined by Jason Snow. Hi Jason.

0:00:23Hi Mike. How are you? I'm doing alright. Nice weekend. Had a nice weekend. Got some good stuff.

0:00:29Nice weekend. Got some stuff done. Some chores done. Love it.

0:00:34We haven't got time for that. No, we haven't got time for that. It's not time for Snow Talk.

0:00:39We've been watching a lot of the Olympics is the answer to your question. All Olympics all the time in the Hurley household.

0:00:45And this Snow Talk comes from Ann who wants to know if you could be good enough to perform in any summer Olympics event, what would it be?

0:00:55Yeah, I see. I got you. I knew. I knew what you'd say. Yeah, because I just say curling because I do play in a little sport and I'm not very good at it. So that would be it.

0:01:03The closing ceremonies. Now let me tell you. I'll be up there with Phoenix. I'll be up there with Phoenix. I've got to say, I might be in the minority here.

0:01:17I hated the opening ceremonies. I did not like it at all. I enjoyed how strange it was. That was fun for the first 20 minutes.

0:01:27And then that guy, they showed a montage of it, uh, right before the closing ceremonies. And there was that guy who was running on the, on the water.

0:01:34Yes. And Lauren said, Oh yeah, that guy who was running on the water for a very long time. And I'm like, yeah, that was really boring.

0:01:40So here's my thing about the opening ceremonies. It took too long. Uh, the boats didn't look good enough. They should have done something to actually make the boats look like something.

0:01:48Um, all of the sound was terrible. The lighting was bad because it was outside and uncontrollable. Uh, and because of their requirements to move things up and down the Seine, things that should have been impactful took too long.

0:02:04Like the Joan of Arc, like horse thing took ages. And like then when they took the flame from the Eiffel tower to the Tokodero, I think it was, where the, everything took too long.

0:02:17And so I think that, I think that their decision to do everything on the Seine made everything a little bit worse because the closing ceremonies were fantastic because it was a performance that people, you could hear people.

0:02:33They could enjoy it and the music was good. And I love the closing ceremonies. There was a dystopia where they couldn't find the Olympic rings. And so therefore earth was terrible and then they found them and then everything was fine. And then Phoenix played.

0:02:45Do you know that, I don't know, cause we get different, um, commentary, like what, what the impetus for that was. No. So do you know the, I think it's on the, the Voyager, right? As a golden record.

0:02:59Yes. So that was produced in France, the golden record. And so the, the opening ceremonies started with them playing a piece of music that's on the record.

0:03:10And then that was an alien that came to earth after earth was quote, a archeological remnant.

0:03:19And then like, that's kind of, I think that's why that alien was golden. It also was referencing a statue in France. And so yeah, that, that's kind of what that was about.

0:03:29Yeah. The American announcers basically said, ah, now we're going to go tell, this is a story about a future dystopia where the Olympics do not exist, which made me laugh.

0:03:36Like, yes, what could be worse than there not be being the Olympics?

0:03:40Well, unfortunately there was no earth left. I don't, uh, so other than, other than up with Phoenix, you know, can I just say how fun it was to have one of my favorite bands have a concert in the middle of the Olympics closing ceremony.

0:03:54I was surprised. And then all of the collaborations that they did were fantastic.

0:03:59Yeah. Yeah. And so, so on, um, the U S there were a bunch of different commentators, but, um, for that part, uh, it was Jimmy Fallon and Mike Torico, who is the host of the Olympics on NBC and Mike Torico was like, Jimmy, they, they, these guys and Jimmy Fallon's like, Oh, Phoenix.

0:04:14I love them. This is so great. They've been on my show a bunch of times. They're so great. And it was like appropriate amounts of enthusiasm. Um, and, and he was like, ah, list of mania. Yeah.

0:04:22And then they get to 1901 and, uh, Mike Torico says, no, Jimmy, you're the music guy, but even I know this one. It was really cool. It was like, they were enjoying that it was Phoenix and I love Phoenix. They're a great band.

0:04:36That was, that was really fun. And then all the extras. And I, I honestly, I did love, um, the, uh, the bit with Tom cruise.

0:04:43I'm sorry. It was my favorite part. It was my favorite part. Yeah. Lauren was out and she came back and I said, no, if I told you that Tom cruise stood on the top of the stadium, jumped off of it, repelled to the floor, uh, got the flag, put it on a motorbike, rode out and flew to LA.

0:04:58Would you believe it? Cause that's what happened. I was like, yeah, I was already excited about the prospect of the LA Olympics and seeing that whole section was like, yeah, it's going to rule.

0:05:10It's going to be so good. My favorite part about the Tom cruise thing is what I assume was his dictated camera shot where the camera goes above his head and looks into the camera as he jumps. So no one could doubt that it was him.

0:05:24Yeah, absolutely. He's looking up there like, yeah, it's me. I'm here. Here I go. I can't wait for the LA Olympics, man. But this one was fun. Overall, the games. Brilliant. I watched so much of it. Loved it.

0:05:36My many upstream here, I'll just say is NBC who has had the almost every Olympics in modern memory in the U S um, after a lot of experimentation this year, they, they, they nailed it. They nailed all of it.

0:05:51They showed all the events live and then showed them in prime time. They used to hide events. They used to like, not like the ones people wanted to see. They wouldn't show them live.

0:05:59They would hold onto them because they were afraid people didn't want to watch a prime time. It wouldn't want to watch in prime time. They'd have already heard about it or seen about it while the world has changed. And they gave that up so you could watch them live.

0:06:11Their streaming was really great. You could watch anything you wanted live or on a replay. And they had this gold zone channel, which is literally, um, the Olympic equivalent of the NFL red zone where they literally had the host of that on it.

0:06:25And that was basically, you just tuned to that channel and they take you around to whatever is going on. That's interesting. And that was on for like eight hours a day.

0:06:32It sounded like that experience was really, really good. Ours was like, okay. Like it didn't have anything special, but it sounded like peacock really went all out this time.

0:06:41Yeah. The peacocks of, oh, and I should say the Kevin Hart, uh, Kenan Thompson, uh, comedy highlights show that they did. I mean, we watched one last night. It reduced me to tears. It was so funny. Uh, just so funny. Those guys.

0:06:55So, and that was a case where it's like, NBC is not so uptight that they can't, they were like, we're going to just make a comedy show. I mean, it's like a streaming comedy show. They there's the bad, there's bad words and stuff. Like they don't care.

0:07:09And it's the Olympics and they just don't care because that's, that's if you want that it's there and it was really funny. So I think they got it.

0:07:19And making Snoop Dogg like the international Olympics ambassador. I don't know why that works so well, but it really does work very well. Like so good.

0:07:29But I love both the basketball games. Both basketball finals were just fantastic. Two of my favorite.

0:07:35Yeah. Women's soccer final was great too. Women's soccer final was amazing.

0:07:39But if you could be good enough to perform in any Olympics event, what would it be?

0:07:43I said closing ceremonies. I don't know. Um, like, I, I, I, uh, like, um, uh, archery.

0:07:57Oh, okay.

0:07:58I don't know.

0:07:59I would take like skateboarding or something.

0:08:01I think, oh, well, that would be cool. I thought of archery because, um, I saw some video of that and it's amazing. Cause like they're, they're, they're these tight closeup shots.

0:08:10They don't show like the arrow flying. So it's like somebody very carefully looking, looking, looking poop. They shoot cut to the target.

0:08:19And then several seconds pass before the arrow comes in. You're like, oh my God, wow. How far away are they?

0:08:25And the answer is they're extremely far away. If they cut and showed that they're like 10 feet away, it would be really disappointing. No, they're not. They're very, very far away. So I'll say that it seems low impact.

0:08:35If you would like to send in a question to help us open a future episode of the show, please go to upgrade feedback.com and send in your snow talk. Thank you to Ann for giving us an excuse to talk about the Olympics.

0:08:46Yeah.

0:08:47Jason, it's time to lawyer up.

0:08:49All right.

0:08:50So this is kind of lawyer up and follow up. Thank you. It's like lawyer up and follow up kind of in one. So we were talking a bit about the streaming.

0:08:59Follow lawyer up.

0:09:00Yeah, for lawyer up, but it's not all of that. Some of it is, is new stuff. Um, so we were talking about Apple and streaming, uh, like revenues and stuff like that services. I should say, sorry.

0:09:12Well, a US federal district court judge Amit Mehta has ruled that Google is a monopolist and has used its power to its gain in violation of US antitrust law.

0:09:24And why is that relevant? You may hear me asking for us talking about Apple here.

0:09:29Well, one of the key things that has been brought up in this monopoly case is Google's deals with browser companies and firm manufacturers to become, to basically pay for placement of the default search engine.

0:09:43Uh, this basically this further entrenches their power and you know, et cetera, et cetera.

0:09:48If there's still a lot to go here, right? Like there's actually for as much as I can understand, cause it is, this stuff is quite complicated. There hasn't been any, anything to say that they will block this stuff from happening.

0:10:01No remedies have been suggested.

0:10:03Yeah. We can assume that this will be the case. Um, and so if we get to a point where Google is no longer paying Apple around $20 billion a year, that is going to affect Apple services revenue.

0:10:16Yeah. It's a quarter, roughly a quarter of Apple services revenue is this.

0:10:20So this could be, this could be quite a problematic for Apple where actually might not be that problematic for Google.

0:10:30Yeah. Well, yeah. Good. Congratulations, Google. You just saved $20 billion. I do wonder. I mean, so here's the thing. A lot of these antitrust remedies are, I mean, first off it's going to take a long time and a lot of them are weird.

0:10:42A lot of them can be very, very strange. We think of like simple, like don't do that anymore, but it may be a much more complex negotiated regime.

0:10:52Like do they take Google search and force Google to spin it off or follow certain rules? And you think, well, that seems impossible, but I mean, they could, they could do it.

0:11:04They could say, um, what if Google has to make search available to other parties so that advertising in a Google search is separated from the search business, right?

0:11:21Because I think one of the problems with antitrust is, um, that monopolies aren't illegal. It's using monopoly power to exert your authority in other places or, or to maintain your monopoly. Right?

0:11:34These are the parts that are illegal. So is there a solution where like different companies can put ads on Google search, including Google, but that other people can too.

0:11:44And then there are different versions of Google search and you can choose them or they're chosen for you or whatever. Like it could get weird.

0:11:51And, and that means it could get to the point and what I think Apple would probably come in as a potentially harmed subject here and say, you know, we, cause it's Apple, of course, uh, we think that every search from our apps should, um, kick money back to us.

0:12:10And you're saying that if you, you know, you materially hurt our business, if, if you disallow this and could that eat, could money to Apple even be part of the remedy?

0:12:19I don't know. Right. But like, it's not impossible. I know a lot of people talked about this. There's so many, it's like infinite possibilities.

0:12:26I will just say the one that I keep coming back to is Apple going, Apple going its own way in some places and surfacing their search engine more prominently in, in more places.

0:12:47And also potentially putting ads on it is not beyond the realm of possibility. I think it's unlikely that Apple would entirely override, like all searches now go to Apple bot.

0:13:02Like, I don't think so, but there, they could take a lot of stuff and divert it into places where Apple would make the money off of advertising. And I, I wouldn't put it past them to do that.

0:13:17We also don't know what the impact of kind of like AI stuff is on all of this, because, you know, it could it be like with, with Apple intelligence, the strong implication.

0:13:28And we heard this on the call, the strong implication is that if you want to search with Siri for world knowledge, you'll go to chat GPT or another AI provider.

0:13:41Well, if that's the case, like, is that where search is going? And the, this, and, and the, the U S is stopping the last thing when the new thing is already here, that's going to replace the old thing.

0:13:55I don't know, but I just, I think, I think Apple is going to be okay either way. Cause it's not like they earned that money. They just, I mean, they, they earned it by being in existence and asking for it.

0:14:04But like, it's not like they, they invest that's a, that's a 99%, 98% profit category, right? They may amortize. They may like say, well, Safari development is covered by this or something, but like really it's, it's just free money.

0:14:17And it's free money to help Google prop up its monopoly. So if it goes away, it's not the end of the world, but I have a hard time imagining that the Apple we know that we cover in this segment is going to just go, oh, well, easy come easy go and not find another way to get money out of somebody.

0:14:34The money money will go away. Just the default might go away.

0:14:38Right. I mean, I think there's a possibility where they just say, um, we have a new affiliate system and, uh,

0:14:44I believe that it pays Apple for whatever Bing searches go. Yeah. Like if you choose Bing as your default app, Apple get money from Microsoft.

0:14:56I think so. I think it's very much like kind of an affiliate search engine arrangement.

0:15:01Apple will just put up a choice and people, everyone will just continue choosing Google and nothing changed.

0:15:07And Google will keep paying Apple because they're paying for use and not for exclusive payment, which I think honestly,

0:15:12I think is the way to go. Yeah. I think honestly, that is the, that is the truth is that it's not, it shouldn't be necessarily legal under this ruling for Google to pay to be the default.

0:15:24But that doesn't mean that it's illegal for Google to cut in Apple for searches on its platform. Right.

0:15:30Because that's not necessarily the same. So I don't, I don't know. But like, again, you know, could Apple shrug and say like, you know, it's fine. Uh, sure. But nothing we see in Apple's behavior suggests that it's a company that's willing to leave a dollar on the table that is owed.

0:15:50Speaking of which, yeah, Apple has found another new and exciting way to charge developers 30%. So last week, Apple announced a new set of rules for external linking in the European Union.

0:16:06So this is what gives the, uh, and will give developers the ability to direct customers inside of their iOS apps to purchasing options on the web that don't need to go through Apple's in-app purchases. But you can have as many links as you want.

0:16:21Now, it's not just this one link. They can be as many as you want, and they can go wherever you want. And apps that opt into this new system, they have no restrictions. They can have tracking parameters on the links and the links can be opened in an in-app web view.

0:16:37So this is essentially, it's like, oh great, this is exactly everything that you would want. It's enabled via Apple store kit entitlements. And this is also available to customers who have accepted the new EU business terms and also ones who have not.

0:16:56So again, like all of this is like, this sounds great. But then you get to the fee structures. There are two different fee structures. I'm just going to preface this by saying this is very complicated, but we'll get through it together.

0:17:11There is an end point to this, which is the same either way. But just for completeness sake, if you are on the new business terms, so this is where you're paying the core technology fee and all that kind of stuff. If somebody clicks a link inside of your app and then goes and makes a purchase, you give Apple a 5% initial acquisition fee of the price of the purchase and a 5 to 10% store services fee.

0:17:36Whether you pay 5 or 10 depends on your app size, like the size of your app, because that changes some of the fees that you pay otherwise. So you pay a 5 to 10% store services fee plus the CTF.

0:17:48And this store services fee is on any purchase within a 12 month period. This would result for Apple in a 10 to 15% commission plus a 3% payment fee if you use Apple's tools, because you can still use Apple's purchasing tools even with the outside linking.

0:18:05Plus the CTF on top. If you're on the regular terms, you have not opted into the business terms, you pay the 5% initial acquisition fee for the price of the thing. So you pay 5% of whatever that is, plus a 7 to 20% store services fee that results in a 12 to 27% commission plus the 3% fee for payments.

0:18:26I'm going to now read how Apple describes these two fees. Again, for completeness sake.

0:18:35Please stand for the reading of the rules.

0:18:37The initial acquisition fee. This is coming from Apple's developer pages.

0:18:41You'll pay Apple a fee on all sales of digital goods and services the customer makes on any platform that occur over a 12 month period after initial install. This fee does not apply to transactions made by customers that had an initial install before you make your app available with the entitlement profile to link out.

0:19:00The fee reflects the value the App Store provides when connecting developers with customers in the EU.

0:19:05And then the store services fee. In addition to the initial acquisition fee, you'll pay Apple a fee on all sales of digital goods and services the customer makes on any platform that occur within a fixed 12 month period from the date of an install, including app updates and reinstalls after you make your app available with the entitlement profile to link out.

0:19:24This reflects the ongoing services and capabilities that Apple provides developers, including app distribution and management, app review, App Store trust and safety, rediscovery, reengagement and promotional tools and services, anti-fraud checks, recommendations, ratings and reviews, customer support and more.

0:19:42Customer support. I reset that part. Apple didn't.

0:19:46So, essentially, again, like with the other stuff, Apple will reserve the right to audit any company. So you have to collect up all of the transactions from a specific customer who initially went through Apple, no matter what platform they're buying on, which is an incredible overreach, in my opinion, aside from everything else that they're doing.

0:20:08And essentially, the result of all of this, Apple's getting its money. It's just going to get it in a different way. But they don't care. They're getting their money.

0:20:17Yeah, I really don't like this.

0:20:24I mean, honestly, Jason, okay, I've been a bit annoyed about this today, just talking about this. Like, I want to cover these things because I think they're important, but I didn't feel the need to do an insane amount of research on this like I've done in the past, because this is just another attempt at doing the same thing that won't pass.

0:20:41It's the same thing they've done before.

0:20:42And in six months time, I'll be telling you about their new way that they're going to try and get their thought episode.

0:20:46So here's the simplified version of this, which is Apple believes that if you have an app on Apple's platforms, Apple is the source of your success and that Apple wants a cut.

0:21:07Let's be honest. If Apple could say, if you have a corporation and your corporation has an app, you owe us 10% of your global revenue. They would do that if they could.

0:21:21Just like literally, you built your business on us, on our greatness, and therefore, we want our cut.

0:21:28Now, I'll point out again, Apple doesn't cut developers in on iPhone sales and apps are a huge contributor to the success of the iPhone as a platform, the existence of third-party apps.

0:21:39When Apple tells the App Store story, they like to talk about that it's a partnership between developers and Apple, but they also like this whole mythology of, oh, Apple invented buying software on the internet, which isn't true.

0:21:51It is this idea that Apple and the developers are partners, but Apple takes 100% of iPhone revenue for itself. It doesn't share that with developers. Doesn't do that.

0:22:08But developers have to share with Apple, which says something about how Apple really feels about developers.

0:22:15This is the icing on the cake. Not only is it ridiculous that Apple doesn't want links and things in apps and says it's because of safety and privacy.

0:22:27This is that little thin privacy shield that they put up. Like, oh, oh, going to the internet, buying things on the internet, that's dangerous.

0:22:36Everybody does it. We've done it forever. Have you heard of Cyber Monday? I mean, what are you talking about?

0:22:45This is the mask coming off, which is Apple doesn't actually think that the internet and links are bad, except in the sense that they prevent Apple from being the gatekeeper and taking a cut.

0:22:59And so what they're saying here is, once they leave our app, anything your customers do is because of us give us money.

0:23:08In this scenario, they would make more money than they're currently making, right?

0:23:14Well, because it's a poison pill. Because they don't want anybody to use these terms, which is why they will, you're right, which is why they will be found to be unacceptable by the EC at some point here.

0:23:24But I just think, just the gall of saying we own everything, like, I would be okay. I actually would be okay with the idea of like, if you have a link, it's like an affiliate deal, right?

0:23:34It's like an Amazon affiliate deal. If you have a link in your app that directly results in a purchase, cut us in. Okay.

0:23:42But they're like, no, no, no, no, no. If you have a link that goes out, then everything forever, because it's a 12 month purchase, a 12 month period except if you update your app.

0:23:53Everything else thereafter, just pay us money because it came from our app and therefore we are the one who brought that customer to you, which is hilarious because of course, it again suggests a world where there's no other way to find an app.

0:24:08That there aren't brands out there that are saying find our app on the App Store, download our app, and it's coming in from their greatness.

0:24:16Apple's scenario is basically no, no, no, apps are only discovered by the App Store, which is hilarious if you think I've ever tried to discover apps in the App Store, right?

0:24:25So come on. I mean, like, I know that this sort of versions of this do happen, but I'm just saying, if let's say Federico writes about an app on Mac stories and it drives thousands of app sales.

0:24:40Should Federico say, no, you got to pay me 20% of your revenue because that link came from Mac stories.

0:24:46And the incredible thing is there was a scenario like this once, but Apple took that away.

0:24:51There was an affiliate marketing thing where you got like 2% if you link to it and they're converted and all that and they took it away because they just don't want to do that anymore.

0:24:58They want to build the money.

0:24:59And from Federico standpoint, you know, there's a lot of things it's like with Wirecutter where if you're making your money on the referrals, you know, you have to distance yourself and say, no, no, we make our selections regardless of the referral revenue instead of targeting the referral revenue and creating a business that's basically advertising and marketing of apps.

0:25:17So it's complicated.

0:25:18But what I'm saying is Apple really thinks that it's a partnership that they should be a participant in when it benefits them.

0:25:25But in no other case, in no other case.

0:25:28And I'll just come back to again, if this was a partnership, why doesn't Apple share 30% of iPhone revenues with developers?

0:25:35Well, we know why.

0:25:37So anyway, the idea that they would reach their claws and even further here and say, basically, if you have a relationship with a customer, it's because of us.

0:25:46It's just, it's ridiculous.

0:25:48But you're right.

0:25:49I think on its face, it's very hard to see because it's designed in a way to be so unpalatable, it's hard to imagine that the regulators aren't going to look at this and go, no, that's not going to work.

0:26:01I'm so happy that Apple are on a run right now of making credible products.

0:26:07I feel like the last two years, they've been making some really, really good stuff because if we were in a period right now where the products were bad and this was happening, I would be struggling.

0:26:20Because this stuff just puts such a bad taste in my mouth.

0:26:25Let's imagine we were in the real bad Mac time that was many years ago, I would be struggling right now a lot because this stuff just makes me so angry and disappointed that if the products weren't good, I would be really struggling.

0:26:48I keep going back to the ebook thing where you can buy a book in the US, you can buy a book in iBooks, but not in the Kindle app or the Kobo app for that matter.

0:27:01And Apple will tell you, it's like, oh, well, they need to do 30%.

0:27:07In fact, there's a story today about how Patreon now is going to have to finally do 30% in app.

0:27:14We have to get into that next week, but yeah, we should talk about it a little bit now, but I really want to do some reading about it. I think that would be a good big thing next week.

0:27:20They're continuing to try and catch as much money as they can out of everything.

0:27:26So that's all going on.

0:27:28And it's this, I don't know, it is frustrating because I don't disagree that there is something there.

0:27:35But Apple can sell books without a middleman, but nobody else can.

0:27:41And you're saying, well, yeah, but they're using Apple's in-app purchase, but Apple makes it illegal.

0:27:45This is the thing is that a lot of the but this, but that kind of things are only because of Apple's rules.

0:27:52Like Amazon, I have a linked credit card at Amazon.

0:27:56When I'm logged into the Kindle app, it knows who I am and it knows how I can buy things.

0:28:01And it's not allowed to let me buy them and download them straight in the iPhone app.

0:28:06It's just not allowed by Apple.

0:28:08And what Apple is saying is, well, you think, oh, well, why don't you link out to Amazon.com and buy them there?

0:28:14And the answer is no, you can't because Apple still wants its money.

0:28:19Because it thinks that if you buy a Kindle book on an iPhone, you're doing it because of value that Apple has added.

0:28:26Come on.

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0:30:22One, Ooni's app. They have a great app that has loads of great tips in it.

0:30:25And also their YouTube channel. So when we got our Ooni Vault, we watched a few of the videos that they have on their YouTube channel

0:30:31and it really just gave us the confidence like, "Oh, how do you stretch the dough?"

0:30:35and like, "What's the best way to clean it?"

0:30:37They have done a really great job of making lots of instructional videos for all of their products.

0:30:41Ooni's ovens are for more than just pizza. You can also cook juicy burgers, sizzling fajitas, buffalo wings.

0:30:48If you can cook it in an oven, you can cook it in an Ooni and your results are going to be fantastic.

0:30:52They start at just $299. They have free shipping to the US, UK and the EU.

0:30:57Listeners of this show can get 10% off their purchase of an Ooni pizza oven.

0:31:02Just go to Ooni.com. That's O-O-N-I dot com and use the code UPGRADE2024 at checkout

0:31:08and you will get 10% off your purchase of an Ooni pizza oven.

0:31:12Ooni pizza ovens are the best way to bring restaurant quality pizza to your home.

0:31:15So that's O-O-N-I dot com and use the code UPGRADE2024 for 10% off.

0:31:20Our thanks to Ooni Pizza Ovens for their support of this show.

0:31:24Jason, I've been thinking today's episode when I was planning out the subjects is kind of like a trifle.

0:31:32A trifle is a dessert that comes in layers and in a trifle...

0:31:37This isn't that... I was flashing to that Romanian Christmas thing, but that's a different thing.

0:31:44Different. You don't want that.

0:31:46I don't want that.

0:31:47A trifle is a dessert, right? And there's layers in a trifle and maybe some things in the trifle you don't like, but some you do.

0:31:56But you eat them all together and you're like, "Oh, that was a good trifle."

0:32:00So that's how today's episode is where there's some good stuff and there's some bad stuff and some good stuff and bad stuff.

0:32:05We're making a trifle.

0:32:07Next up in today's trifle is Rumor Roundup.

0:32:10Oh, yee-haw!

0:32:12Al Gorman is reporting that the first Macs with M4 chips are on track to launch this year.

0:32:17The iMac, the MacBook Pro and the Mac Mini in 2024.

0:32:21Followed up by a refresh to the MacBook Air, the Mac Pro and the Mac Studio by mid-2025.

0:32:28A little bit sad that the Mac Studio is being pushed out so long.

0:32:31I don't like that.

0:32:33Yeah, but more importantly, just some more information about that M4 Mac Mini.

0:32:38It's going to see a new design making it "the smallest Mac ever."

0:32:43It would be likely close to the size of an Apple TV, but a little bit taller.

0:32:48So kind of the dimensions-ish, you know, the area.

0:32:51Like the old Apple TV.

0:32:53Yes, actually. Well, the old Apple TV was bigger, right, than the one we have now.

0:32:58This would be like small, but tall.

0:33:00Yeah, I guess. I mean, the first of the black Apple TVs were taller.

0:33:04All right. Yes.

0:33:06They were a little shorter. So like that one.

0:33:08I was thinking of the big silver one, the ITV.

0:33:12Yeah, no, no, no.

0:33:14Yeah, the tall block one.

0:33:16Apparently, Apple have been testing a version of this product with three USB-C ports and HDMI.

0:33:23And a quote from Mark Gurman, "People involved in the development of the new Mac Mini

0:33:27say it's essentially an iPad Pro in a small box."

0:33:30Yeah.

0:33:31It's like, yes, that makes sense.

0:33:33What do you think of this tiny Mac Mini rumor?

0:33:35I love it. I love it. Well, I looked.

0:33:37I wrote about wanting this seven years ago.

0:33:39Okay.

0:33:40Yeah. Because this Mac Mini design has been around about 15 years.

0:33:43I checked in with Stephen Hackett about this because we were on the 6 Colors podcast.

0:33:48I was kind of like trying to remember the various...

0:33:50I opened that original Mac Mini so many times.

0:33:52We talked about the optical drive.

0:33:54The truth is that they went to this design...

0:33:57Look, there should have been a Mac Mini redesign seven years ago, clearly.

0:34:01Because this design is actually from an era where they still had an optical drive and spinning hard drive.

0:34:10And then they dropped the optical drive and then they got rid of the spinning hard drive.

0:34:15But it's still in this big, wide pancake thing.

0:34:19Mm-hmm.

0:34:20And it doesn't need to be, right?

0:34:24It's essentially a MacBook Air, or maybe a MacBook Pro, if you put the Pro chip in it.

0:34:30So it's very, very small.

0:34:33Or an iPad Pro, right?

0:34:35Apple has reduced energy consumption and the chips don't run as hot.

0:34:41There are all these reasons for them to do a new enclosure.

0:34:43And I think it just says how Apple feels about the Mac Mini, which is that it's not a high priority.

0:34:49That they haven't done it up to now.

0:34:51I'm kind of amazed they're doing it at all.

0:34:53Honestly, I kind of gave up.

0:34:54But yeah, I looked it up.

0:34:56I wrote columns about it seven years ago saying, "Wouldn't it be nice if we had an Apple TV-ish sized Mac Mini instead?"

0:35:05And people always are like, "Oh, does it matter the size of a desktop computer? Does it really matter?"

0:35:12And the answer is, look, the Mac Mini is a multi-purpose tool.

0:35:15It fits in a lot of workflows.

0:35:17Having it be smaller so it can get stuck in another little place somewhere is better.

0:35:23And it's also not necessary for it to be as big as it is now because there's very little inside.

0:35:27There's very little in there.

0:35:29You could just throw this computer in your backpack.

0:35:32You could just throw it in there.

0:35:35I just think that's awesome.

0:35:37I don't know what use that would be for me.

0:35:39But I love the idea of being able to do that.

0:35:42Because this is the thing for me.

0:35:43Do they need to do this? Absolutely not.

0:35:45Would it be cool? Yes.

0:35:47So that is a reason.

0:35:49Because cool computers sell.

0:35:53I feel like we've seen that with Apple Silicon.

0:35:57That I feel like they went on this big resurgence because they made these computers that were really interesting and people wanted to buy them.

0:36:03I just think that this is a very exciting prospect.

0:36:09Let's make a computer from Apple that can be used in places that a Mac would maybe not have been used before because of its physical dimensions.

0:36:23I just think this is a cool thing to do.

0:36:27The Mac Mini has always been that thing.

0:36:30Which is like, what is its target audience?

0:36:32And the answer is, I don't know.

0:36:34It's whatever. It's anything.

0:36:37I need a Mac to do a thing.

0:36:39And it's a cheap desktop Mac.

0:36:42It's the cheapest desktop Mac.

0:36:44And you can kind of put it anywhere.

0:36:46Now, there is a question about size.

0:36:50There are a couple of questions here.

0:36:52One is power supply.

0:36:54There have been Mac Minis with big bricks outboard.

0:36:59And there have been Mac Minis where there's just a plug that goes out.

0:37:02So there are a lot of assumptions people are making about this product.

0:37:05Some of them may be true, but we don't know.

0:37:07So let's just put them out there.

0:37:09The MacBook Air doesn't have a brick.

0:37:12The Apple TV doesn't have a brick.

0:37:14So I'm hopeful that this won't have a brick either.

0:37:19That the power supply will be in it.

0:37:20Because that would stink if you have a little tiny box with another box on the outside of it.

0:37:26Which isn't.

0:37:27Unless you put a couple of ports on it.

0:37:29Well, okay.

0:37:30So...

0:37:31They've never done it in anything other than the iMac.

0:37:34One thing they could do is something like the iMac.

0:37:37Where there's a magnetic connect and then there's a brick later on that has ethernet.

0:37:43At least on it.

0:37:44They could do that.

0:37:46They could do that.

0:37:47My guess is that they know that these things get put in racks and stuff.

0:37:50And that the ideal situation is for it to be one surface without a lot of messy extra blocks somewhere.

0:38:01The other question is ports.

0:38:02And I get it.

0:38:03That would be a challenge.

0:38:05I will say the Mac Mini was designed in an era where Apple didn't put ports on the front of anything.

0:38:12Because how dare you.

0:38:13And we live in an era where the Mac Studio has ports on the front of it.

0:38:16So the Intel NUCs that are of this sort of class of computer that I had one for a while running as a Hackintosh server.

0:38:23It's got ports on the front and it's got ports on the back.

0:38:26And it's very useful.

0:38:27And my guess is that that's what we will get out of this.

0:38:31Now what ports there will be, I don't know.

0:38:34And keep in mind that the base M2 Mac Mini today has two USB-A, two Thunderbolt 4, so USB-C, HDMI and ethernet.

0:38:42Will it have all of that?

0:38:44I don't know.

0:38:46They're absolutely going to remove the USB-A ports.

0:38:49I think that's true.

0:38:51And then what I would say is, what does the base 13 MacBook Pro have?

0:39:03What does the base 13 MacBook Pro have?

0:39:07That's probably what it will have.

0:39:10So what is that?

0:39:12I'm trying to find that out.

0:39:13Here it is.

0:39:15It's two Thunderbolt, USB, an HDMI, power, headphone jack.

0:39:23And in that case, it's got a card reader.

0:39:25Yeah, so that's my guess, is that it's going to be fewer ports because it's not going to have the USB-A ports anymore.

0:39:33And I fill up my ports on my Mac Mini.

0:39:35So I hope that's not true.

0:39:37I hope it has more ports than that.

0:39:38I'll just point out that at least with the M2-123, there's actually a limit to the number of ports they can put on there.

0:39:44And the reason the Mac Mini has the USB-A is because you can put more USB-A ports on it.

0:39:52Because you don't need as much as you do with a USB-C Thunderbolt port.

0:39:57So we'll see.

0:39:59My hope is that they have ports front and back.

0:40:01My hope is that the power is internal.

0:40:04Because I think it makes the most sense that way.

0:40:06But we don't know.

0:40:08We don't know.

0:40:09But it's exciting.

0:40:10It's definitely a new shape of Mac.

0:40:16That's exciting.

0:40:17Those don't happen very often.

0:40:18And in the case of this computer, 15 years.

0:40:20Yep.

0:40:21I think three USB-C ports, an HDMI port, and ethernet on the power brick would be pretty sweet.

0:40:30I think as a combination of all of those things.

0:40:32I think that would be pretty nice.

0:40:34Yeah.

0:40:35But we'll see.

0:40:37Time for the details.

0:40:39Hoo hoo.

0:40:41We're going to talk about macOS privacy dialog.

0:40:43See, we're in another layer of the trifle now.

0:40:45Oh, okay.

0:40:46Do you see?

0:40:47Do you see what's happening?

0:40:48Leaving the sweet layer behind.

0:40:50I see.

0:40:51I see.

0:40:52Maybe you have like a slight intolerance to whatever's in this layer, you know?

0:40:56I think maybe it makes you a little tingly.

0:40:58Apple has added new privacy and security prompts in macOS Sequoia.

0:41:03I always forget what the name of this macOS is, by the way.

0:41:06I'm always happy to get that information whenever I receive it, which is really your uncle.

0:41:09Strange for a California bear trophy holder not to know, though.

0:41:13Yeah, because nobody won.

0:41:15It's the reason that we both have the trophy.

0:41:17So we both won.

0:41:18We both won.

0:41:19That's true.

0:41:20So new privacy and security prompts in the latest betas of macOS require weekly reauthorization

0:41:26of any app that can capture your screen.

0:41:28There is currently no permanent authorization that can be given, so you can't say,

0:41:32"Hey, just stop bugging me about this."

0:41:34And this adds what I would say is another stone on the pile of dialogues that Apple

0:41:39has been adding over the years, which I know has been a bugbear of yours.

0:41:42We've spoken about it many times.

0:41:44So you wrote a great article about this in Six Colors, but I would like to go talk about why.

0:41:50Why would Apple add a weekly security dialogue to a screen recording entitlement?

0:42:00Or if you would call it that, or API?

0:42:02So one of the things that I tried to do in my article, which is called "Apple's Permissions Features Are Out of Balance,"

0:42:09is I didn't want to write what I kind of desired to write, which was an angry screed about Apple getting in my way

0:42:19and "Get out of my way and this is my computer."

0:42:22Because the truth is, Apple's motivations are good.

0:42:26Apple's motivations are that capturing your screen is a huge invasion of privacy.

0:42:35And if somebody can either talk you into authenticating, which is, that's how malware spreads.

0:42:44The number one way malware spreads is that it's social engineering, at least Mac malware.

0:42:50Number one, I don't know.

0:42:52It is a very common way where somebody calls you or you are told to call, you text them or whatever.

0:42:57You end up on the phone with an expert.

0:42:59They have you install software.

0:43:00They have you put in your password and stuff like that.

0:43:03And now they're in your computer.

0:43:05That's super dangerous.

0:43:07Also, abusive relationships.

0:43:10People who have access to one another's devices.

0:43:13A person who is an abuser in a relationship might choose to, or for whatever reason in a relationship.

0:43:21But I think a common case is abusive relationships.

0:43:24To have surreptitiously installed monitoring software on a computer.

0:43:30So the problem is, if it happens once and then it's there forever, that's really dangerous.

0:43:37I'm sure the motivation here is, you gotta ask them again later.

0:43:42Because outside of being talked to by a social engineer,

0:43:47or outside of the surreptitious installation of the software on your device,

0:43:52if you get a prompt that says, "Did you know that this thing can see everything you do?

0:43:59Are you sure that this is a good idea?"

0:44:03At a later date, where that person is not around or that person is not on the phone,

0:44:10it's an opportunity for Apple to say, "Hey, you might not want to keep giving this permission."

0:44:18It's very similar. On iOS, there's a lot of this stuff.

0:44:21I would argue too much, actually. I haven't gotten into that.

0:44:24But I am very tired of being randomly prompted if my weather app should know where I am,

0:44:32or if my maps app should know where I am.

0:44:34Similar kind of thing.

0:44:36And this comes to the truth of it, which is, good motivations, all.

0:44:41I think all of these scenarios, should software know where you are?

0:44:44Should software see your screen?

0:44:46Absolutely, you should be made aware of it and not just in the moment.

0:44:52The problem is that in macOS Sequoia, they're literally saying, "Approve for one week."

0:45:02And at no point am I, as the user, so far as I can tell, given the opportunity to say,

0:45:09"Actually, I'm okay approving this forever now."

0:45:12And I can see scenarios where permanent approval at the moment that you install it

0:45:18is dangerous for all the reasons I just outlined.

0:45:20We're going to ask again later.

0:45:22My problem is, it seems to be that in this cut of beta, I'll grant them beta of macOS Sequoia,

0:45:29the only power they're giving the user ever is to just kick the can down the road for a week,

0:45:35which I have a couple problems with.

0:45:37A week is wild.

0:45:39It is wild.

0:45:40I think they've done a decent job with some of the iOS prompts,

0:45:45like the location prompts and the photos prompts.

0:45:48I don't know what their timeline is, but they pop up every now and again,

0:45:52and I think they do okay.

0:45:54Part of my issue is, at some point as the user, as the owner of the device,

0:46:00I do want to be given the authority to say, "Stop asking me."

0:46:05The answer is yes.

0:46:07I want to be able to say, "Hey, dummy, I do want Google Maps to know where I am.

0:46:13Stop asking."

0:46:15And the problem is that you can't.

0:46:19And again, I'm not saying you have to do it right at start,

0:46:23but eventually, after you get past that initial thing where you're like,

0:46:27"Oh, they might not know what they did. Let's ask them later,"

0:46:30as the user, I need some recourse that is not "Ask me again in a week."

0:46:36And there's two reasons for that.

0:46:37One is, well, there's many reasons.

0:46:39It's a terrible user experience.

0:46:40It gets in your way, and often it gets in your way when you're trying to do something on your device,

0:46:46and then it says, "Oh, hey, by the way, this thing is going on."

0:46:49Or if you're trying to do screen sharing in your office meeting, in your company meeting,

0:46:54and suddenly it's like, "Oh, by the way, do you want to approve this thing?"

0:47:00Which is the worst possible time to ask.

0:47:02It also leads to permission fatigue where people just say yes, which makes sense.

0:47:08Security people hate this, right?

0:47:10Like, "Oh, why do they say yes?"

0:47:11Well, it's like, if they say no, they break their software, right?

0:47:14If you say no, I've had this where a thing has come up and I'm like, "Do I want this?"

0:47:18Like, "Well, I'm trying to do something right now, and if I say no, I know it's just going to break

0:47:22and I'm going to have to go to System Preferences and turn it back on."

0:47:25So I guess I'll just say yes.

0:47:27So you just overwhelm people, and they don't want to break their stride for what they're doing.

0:47:32And then I would say not given enough focus is I think Apple, whether intentionally or not,

0:47:43is trying to drive a wedge between users and their software.

0:47:47And I hate it.

0:47:49This is the thing where it's sort of like, "Oh, you want to use that software?

0:47:55Well, we can't stop you, but every week we're going to warn you that you shouldn't, essentially.

0:48:00And you can give it another week, but eventually you're going to give up.

0:48:04Like, "Well, you can do this. How long? Who's going to outlast who?"

0:48:08It's like a staring contest.

0:48:10"Who's going to outlast who?"

0:48:11Well, guess what?

0:48:12The operating system is a computer.

0:48:14It will never stop bugging you if it's programmed that way.

0:48:18And I don't like that.

0:48:19I don't like that it is Apple programming its operating system to get to bug users and basically say,

0:48:25"Hey, don't run software outside the Mac App Store.

0:48:28Hey, don't run that program that uses that API that's useful, but we don't want you to run it anymore.

0:48:33Hey, hey, hey, hey, you over there."

0:48:35And it's super gross and bad.

0:48:39I'll throw in the other thing that they changed in Sequoia, which is Gatekeeper,

0:48:43which is what happens when you launch an app for a first time.

0:48:46And if it's not notarized by Apple, a system that used to be completely neutral,

0:48:52but that Apple has weaponized in the EU for iOS makes me feel much less charitable toward Gatekeeper

0:48:58and toward notarization.

0:49:01The first time you do that on Sequoia, it directs you to system settings,

0:49:05and you have to approve the idea that you could possibly open software that is notarized by Apple.

0:49:12And then when you double click on it, it's going to give you another warning,

0:49:15and then you have to authenticate, and then it will finally launch this app that is a program you installed

0:49:20and want to use, right? Theoretically.

0:49:23But worse than that is the language they use, because the language they use is scary language.

0:49:27It's Apple can't vouch for this thing because we couldn't scan it for malware,

0:49:33and we can't say whether it's safe or not.

0:49:35And again, I think the attitude that Apple has with this is attempting, intentionally or not,

0:49:42to drive a wedge between users and the software that they use,

0:49:46with the ultimate goal of saying if it isn't in the Mac App Store, don't trust it.

0:49:52Why can't they do the scanning on the device?

0:49:56The scanning that they do for notarization that confirms there's no malware,

0:50:01why can't Apple just do that to any software I download?

0:50:06What they're doing is, the notarization includes a signature,

0:50:09so they scan it for malware on the server, but it's also got a cryptographic signature on it,

0:50:14which means that the app that you're using they can verify is the app that they saw.

0:50:19It hasn't been modified.

0:50:22So they have to see it for that. You're right, they could potentially do some of the scans that they're doing.

0:50:26It's an automated process, right? Mac notarization.

0:50:29So why can't... whatever they need to do to sign it, why can't my device do that?

0:50:36Now, they can't sign it, and they shouldn't sign it,

0:50:38but in theory they could verify it for malware if they wanted to.

0:50:42They could, but they can't sign it.

0:50:44They have to have the one that's on the server so they can verify.

0:50:47And I think what they want to do is they want to verify that the one on the server that they're signing

0:50:51is not full of malware.

0:50:54And I do support Mac notarization.

0:50:56I do think that if you make a piece of Mac software you should get it notarized,

0:51:01because it seems like it doesn't harm you in any way,

0:51:06and actually is better for even your customer support, right?

0:51:11If you offer a piece of software, people are going to be emailing you and be like, "I can't launch it."

0:51:15Yeah, but that's because of a barrier that was erected by Apple in order to get people to notarize their software.

0:51:22I agree, notarization on the Mac is harmless, at least so far.

0:51:27And the apps that aren't notarized, I don't know why they're not notarized.

0:51:32I don't think that the ones that I've tried are for malware.

0:51:37I think it's for reasons of either not wanting to play with Apple, play Apple's game,

0:51:42or feeling like Apple might reject them for content, which I don't think they would actually do.

0:51:47I don't think MakeMKV, which is basically DVD-ripping software,

0:51:51I don't think it actually would get not notarized. I think it would be notarized.

0:51:55But the guy doesn't want to do that, and it's like, "Okay, fine."

0:51:58But anyway, so this is my issue here, is it's the same thing we've talked about over the last few years,

0:52:05which is people at Apple who say, "Oh, God, we got to add this privacy thing, this security thing,

0:52:14because what if?" get their way.

0:52:18And there seems to be nobody who is empowered to push back and say,

0:52:25"This degrades the user experience." And that's the out-of-balance part, which is...

0:52:30I went into this when I was talking about migrations, which seem that they may have been fixed now,

0:52:34but you migrate to a new computer, and then you have to approve every single app on your system.

0:52:39And I had people say to me, "Well, what do you expect?"

0:52:43I think, "I expect a better interface for that, so I don't have 50 dialog boxes

0:52:47that I have to click through one at a time. I expect Apple to build something better that says,

0:52:51'Oh, you just migrated. Here are your apps.'" Or perhaps in the system settings,

0:52:56there should be a better UI for this. I saw some people on Mastodon this week talking about

0:53:01the idea that you should be able to look both by permission and see apps and by app and see permissions,

0:53:08so that you can have a good interface to this stuff.

0:53:10But "Authorize for one week" is the laziest, most user-disrespectful thing you can do.

0:53:17I'll grant you it's a beta, but that should never have been put in an operating system.

0:53:24This isn't a bug. This is a decision.

0:53:27It stinks. It says, again, "I'm not inside Apple, so I can't say."

0:53:31All I can say is, from the outside, Apple seems to be behaving like a company,

0:53:35where the privacy and security people can get anything they want,

0:53:38and anybody who speaks up and says, "This is bad for the user, and ultimately probably bad for security,"

0:53:43those people are not empowered to be heard.

0:53:48And so everything gets approved, this draconian security stuff,

0:53:53and there's nobody there to fight for the user and say, "This is the wrong way to do it."

0:53:57And I blame Apple's managers. I blame Apple's software managers.

0:54:02And ultimately, I guess I blame Craig Federighi for this,

0:54:05because I'm not saying you shouldn't care about security and privacy,

0:54:10but if you're going to play that game, you also have to spend the money and the time

0:54:15on the user experience that go together. You have to do both.

0:54:21And Apple, it seems to me, is much more concerned about the one than the other,

0:54:26and that leads to "Authorize for one week."

0:54:30So the issue that I see here, it reminds me of something that I experienced quite a lot

0:54:39when I worked at the bank that I used to work at.

0:54:42So for people that don't know, I worked at a bank for like ten years out of school,

0:54:46and I ended up in the marketing department.

0:54:49I was responsible for sending out email campaigns and mailing campaigns and stuff like that.

0:54:55And during that time, I kind of coined a phrase in my head,

0:54:59which is "Institutional one-personism."

0:55:02Now, I'm not saying this is bad or good, but it is a thing that happens,

0:55:07where every decision is met by, "Well, what about the one person who might get this who X?"

0:55:14Right? So for example, you're sending out a mailing campaign to,

0:55:22let's imagine people you know who are getting married, right?

0:55:25That they've applied for a loan and the reason is that they're getting married,

0:55:29and you want to send them out a mailing campaign about congratulating them.

0:55:34And then someone says, "But what about the person who got left at the altar?"

0:55:38And then the entire campaign ends because of that one person.

0:55:42Now, I'm not saying that this is good or bad, but it is a thing that happens.

0:55:46And the reason I bring that up is like, one of the things that you mentioned as a reason to do this

0:55:52is because of potential abuse that people might receive, right?

0:55:55That you may be in a harmful relationship.

0:55:58Because if that is considered to be important enough, and I'm not saying it is or isn't,

0:56:05I'm just saying if that is considered to be an important enough reason,

0:56:09there is no scenario in which a global approval could ever exist.

0:56:15Because if you have started down the process of, "We need to have this because people may be abused,"

0:56:21you can never create in any scenario any kind of setting that turns off those security prompts.

0:56:30Because if you've started down that path, you can only get more strict with it.

0:56:36Right. And this goes to the core of what a Mac is.

0:56:39And again, you could argue that it's different from the iPad and the iPhone.

0:56:43I would argue that Apple's made some decisions on the iPad and the iPhone that are also questionable.

0:56:47But what is a Mac?

0:56:49And I've heard people argue over the last few days who've said to me,

0:56:54"You can't let users make bad decisions. You can't do it."

0:56:59And that's wrong.

0:57:00And so you keep saying, "I'm not gonna say it's right or it's wrong, but I'm gonna say it's wrong.

0:57:04Fundamentally, it's wrong."

0:57:06Saying, "We're not gonna put up a sign that says 'Happy Mother's Day' because what if they don't have a mother?"

0:57:13Come on. Come on.

0:57:15There is a limit. I'm sorry, people. There is a limit to this.

0:57:18I will join you on this hill.

0:57:20I agree with you.

0:57:21What if one person, exactly what you're saying.

0:57:24So this is the thing.

0:57:25The Mac needs to let me do what I want at some point.

0:57:29Am I willing to have the Mac be a little more complicated so that gullible people and vulnerable people are a little bit better protected?

0:57:42Yes.

0:57:43Am I willing to give up the ability on my Mac to do what I want, which means install software Apple hasn't seen?

0:57:52It means give permission for utilities to monitor my screen, even though Apple thinks that's not smart.

0:58:00Apple thinks I shouldn't do those things.

0:58:03And this is the bottom line here, which is I'm willing to be inconvenienced a little bit for the general safety of the platform.

0:58:11I am not willing for Apple to take my agency away and say, "This isn't your Mac anymore.

0:58:17There are things on your Mac that you've always been able to do.

0:58:20We don't think you should do them.

0:58:22And there's no way for you to tell us otherwise.

0:58:24That's my problem with it."

0:58:26And it is, I'm just going to say it, Apple has spent so much time on iOS and iPadOS now,

0:58:33where they have a top-down paternalistic attitude toward all of its users.

0:58:38For some good reasons, again, I'm not saying that they're bad reasons, that it's seeping into the Mac.

0:58:46And I've had people say to me, "Why are you guys making such a big deal about this? It's just a beta."

0:58:52And the answer is, because if we don't scream bloody murder about it right now, they'll just do it.

0:58:59The reason this will change if it changes this summer, the reason it will change is because a whole bunch of us complained.

0:59:06File feedbacks, got John Gruber to write a post about it, all of these things.

0:59:11For somebody inside Apple to say, "I told you this was a mistake,"

0:59:15and have some manager who didn't care and didn't think it was a big deal because users are stupid

0:59:21and we should just not let them do things, say, "Okay, you're right. I guess that was too far," and fix it.

0:59:28I should also mention, as a footnote here, I've also heard from people, including some people inside Apple,

0:59:33who say, "I think there's actually a new API that does this stuff that doesn't trigger this thing."

0:59:38The problem is, one, I've heard other people, other developers say it actually does trigger this thing.

0:59:43Maybe it's a bug, I don't know.

0:59:45Two, why is there an approved for one week in any scenario, even for an old API?

0:59:50And three, I talk to developers who don't know what's going on.

0:59:54They have no idea. Is there a special approval, a special entitlement that Apple can provide?

1:00:00Nobody seems to understand it, which comes back to the original point, which is,

1:00:05"So who's up on this?" The security and privacy people, clearly, can do whatever they want,

1:00:10but developer documentation has nothing. The user experience is nowhere.

1:00:15And you're just out of sync. You can't run an organization like that.

1:00:19Those three groups need to be in lockstep.

1:00:21You need to have good UX for your new security and privacy settings.

1:00:25And if you're making changes that developers have to build, you need to tell the developers,

1:00:30"Here's what we're doing. We're going to give you a warning."

1:00:32If only there were some sort of developer conference that they could hold at the beginning of the summer

1:00:36to talk about this and make it clear to developers what's going on.

1:00:40But unfortunately, nobody is capable of such a thing.

1:00:42And this God sack says, "It's a shame they have nowhere to tell all developers worldwide."

1:00:47-Worldwide. -"What changes like this?"

1:00:49-"Maybe a conference." -It is some sort of conference.

1:00:51It is a tragedy.

1:00:53Look, the beta thing doesn't work because there wasn't a bug in the computer

1:00:57that wrote a dialogue that said one week. Someone made a decision.

1:01:01But it is a beta, yes, so feedback can be collected.

1:01:06But if you complain to people that are talking about this, this is part of the feedback process.

1:01:12Year after year after year, this is what happens.

1:01:17Things happen in iOS or macOS. People write about them.

1:01:22We talk about them on our shows, and it helps drive some people to make different decisions.

1:01:28This is, I think at this point, an accepted part of the beta process

1:01:33that we're all a part of together.

1:01:36And I will say, you mentioned iOS again, and I will just say,

1:01:40I think in general they have done a really good job with iOS prompts in the last few years.

1:01:47They're providing visual context to the thing that's happening.

1:01:52I never get the thing that I do on the Mac where I do one thing

1:01:55and I'm prompted with eight different things. That never happens, which is good.

1:01:59And also, they seem to find good time.

1:02:01So for example, you get these prompts on the home screen when you're not doing the thing.

1:02:06It's like, "Hey, WhatsApp has access to your photos, and it shows me my photos. Do you want to continue?"

1:02:12I think that they need to do that.

1:02:15So for example, every now and again on the Mac, it pops up, and it shows a little screenshot of my desktop.

1:02:23It says, "These five apps have access to this. Would you like to manage that?"

1:02:28That's the way to do it.

1:02:30But I don't know what the intervals are in iOS, but they feel better than this.

1:02:37And I would say also, ultimately, I need to be able to go somewhere at some point, not right away, and say,

1:02:45"Stop asking me about this app. I need to be able to do that."

1:02:49I think you're right in general. Like I said, I mentioned the example before,

1:02:52which is my frustration on iOS and iPadOS is also there are certain apps that I want it to stop asking me.

1:03:01And sometimes they do. I think it's hard because it's a progression.

1:03:05I think maybe you get that. I think maybe you get the location approval,

1:03:10and then there's the sort of like "when I use it" or "all the time" that you get eventually,

1:03:15but you don't get it at first.

1:03:18They still check in after a while, though. It is a progressive thing when you're like, "No, this is fine."

1:03:24And then you can say "whenever I'm using this app" or just like "all the time."

1:03:27Because that bugs me when they put up the map. I'm just going to be blunt here.

1:03:31When they put up the map that says, "Oh, your weather app showed you your weather where you were."

1:03:36And look at this map. Your weather app. This is the driving a wedge thing.

1:03:40I know they think of it as disclosure, but this is them saying "Carrot weather is spying on you."

1:03:45And like, okay, if I'm unaware, that's great. But as a user of that app,

1:03:53at some point I need to be able to say, "Never tell me this again. My weather app knows where I am."

1:04:00Yes, thank you. Stop asking me. They have to. That's just good user experience.

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1:06:30The next layer of the trifle.

1:06:33Okay.

1:06:34So this upcoming Sunday, the 18th of August, is Relay's 10th birthday.

1:06:41So we turn 10, which is an incredible thing.

1:06:44Me and Steven were talking with you last night, and we both ended up posting this to social media,

1:06:48but we found the--

1:06:51-We did a post-- -Announcement post.

1:06:53Yes, announcement post kind of saying, "Hey, we're coming in a week, and these are the shows."

1:06:59And Steven, we thought we'd lost this multiple years ago, and we ended up finding it again,

1:07:04and Steven posted it on 512, so it will remain online forever, which is good,

1:07:09because we had this-- It was like a static page that was living on the domain.

1:07:14Our launch was tenuous. We barely got this thing together, and so I'm happy we found that.

1:07:20So that was interesting to think about, and obviously reflecting a lot this week.

1:07:24So I thought, what was going on with Apple News in 2014?

1:07:29So I have a list of things here that occurred in the year of 2014 that we could maybe reflect on a little bit.

1:07:37So this covers upgrade episodes minus 30 to 10.

1:07:43The majority of the stuff that I'm talking about, we would have actually covered on the show,

1:07:48just because of the way in which Apple works, right, as a company,

1:07:52where the majority of things that are happening happen from June to December.

1:07:58That's true.

1:07:59So the biggest news of the year was the 6 and 6+ were introduced.

1:08:04Yes.

1:08:05So this is the first time that we got a big iPhone.

1:08:08It was both big, but we got a bigger one.

1:08:11Yeah, big and bigger.

1:08:14Yeah, this is the origin of Plus Club.

1:08:19I guess that was the early days of Connected was Plus Club.

1:08:21I remember this.

1:08:22So this is at the same event that they introduced the Apple Watch, and I guess I should just get it out here.

1:08:27That was September 9th, 2014.

1:08:30Literally the executives at IDG came to me and said, "We would like to lay everybody off on September 9th."

1:08:35And I said, "Well, large numbers of the editorial staff will be at or covering remotely the Apple event.

1:08:43Maybe you should come the next day."

1:08:45And of course, famously, this turned out it was because one senior executive had a kid's soccer game that they didn't want to miss.

1:08:51And I'm all for work-life balance.

1:08:54That might be a swing.

1:08:56But hey, suit who's here to lay off dozens of people, you got to wait a day.

1:09:02Sorry, I have no sympathy for you.

1:09:04So anyway, the announcements at the Apple Watch event and the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus.

1:09:10And I got review units of the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus.

1:09:13And I had that moment where I'm like, "I need to tell you, I'm not going to be..."

1:09:19And the PR person was like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It was very nice. I'm not going to be there."

1:09:25But I got the review unit, so it was a real question of what I wasn't going to do.

1:09:29And I think I ended up making a deal with Macworld where I would write the reviews for them. They couldn't pay me because I had been laid off.

1:09:36But that's okay. They were paying me. Severance was great.

1:09:39And I was starting my own thing.

1:09:41But they had to link back to a reviewer's notebook piece that I was going to write on Six Colors when I launched Six Colors,

1:09:46which is why Six Colors launched when it did.

1:09:48Anyway, so I remember walking around XOXO, the festival in Portland, and then Seattle,

1:09:56I went to Seattle afterward for a day, and walking through parks with these two phones taking pictures,

1:10:03because the cameras were upgraded and all of that, and then writing my review and all of that stuff going on here.

1:10:08That was my little teeny tiny interregnum between my two jobs, was literally that weekend, and the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus review.

1:10:18So it is burned in my brain.

1:10:21And obviously that time was important. That was when we were starting the show, right?

1:10:26So we were getting ready for episode one of Upgrade just around then too, which is an incredible thing for me to consider.

1:10:33And one of the reasons I wanted to talk about this is because me, you, and Dan had a very good, long conversation in a pub a couple of weeks ago,

1:10:41talking about these exact two weeks of everything happening, everything kind of falling apart and being built back up again.

1:10:49And what a wild time that was then, I feel like.

1:10:55I told you, I don't know if I mentioned this to you before, but the email that you sent to me to tell me you wanted to start this show,

1:11:04I was at my granddad's funeral, which definitely improved that day.

1:11:10And we will get to more of this in a month from now when Upgrade turns 10.

1:11:17Yes, we're literally releasing our episode the week after presumably the Apple event.

1:11:25I'm assuming the Apple event's going to be on the 10th.

1:11:28But the week after, that is our 10th anniversary, that day. So we'll get to it then.

1:11:36Us being able to bring you on and bring over Clockwise and bring on Upgrade was an incredibly important moment in Relay FM's success.

1:11:46Because it was a, you know, we had a very, very successful launch and I could not have been happy with the way that it went.

1:11:54And we ended up with like all of the shows that we launched had bigger audiences than they had a 5x5 when they started.

1:12:02I don't know why. I think we were able to, I think, cash in a bunch of favors and we had a lot of goodwill from people online.

1:12:11And everyone was really excited for me and Steven.

1:12:13But then when you joined us too, it was a bit like, oh wow, because you could just sign your own thing, you know.

1:12:20And, you know, people wanted the Jason Snell podcast, right?

1:12:24Did they?

1:12:25Yes.

1:12:26Did they though?

1:12:27We've been doing this for a decade.

1:12:29People wanted it.

1:12:31And yeah, so it was very important for us then.

1:12:34But yeah, so that happened, 6 and 6 plus, which also started Bendgate.

1:12:40Yay! Bendgate!

1:12:42Was the thing that happened.

1:12:44It's not Ben-gay, which is the stuff that you rub on your arm to make it feel better and warmer.

1:12:48There's a T in there.

1:12:49It's Bendgate.

1:12:50Bendgate.

1:12:51When people said, hey, you know, if I push on my iPhone, I can get it to bend.

1:12:57Yep. And they could and they did. And lots of YouTubers bent their phones.

1:13:01And Apple said it didn't happen very much.

1:13:03But then it ended up happening more.

1:13:06And then apparently it didn't happen very much, but they changed the internals to be stronger.

1:13:11I saw a phone and I forget where, because there was so much going on when we were in London,

1:13:18but somebody's phone was bent.

1:13:21And it was like sitting and we're like, is that bent?

1:13:24And they said, oh, I don't know.

1:13:26And they pick it up and we're like, no, that's bent.

1:13:28That phone is bent.

1:13:29I forget whose phone it was.

1:13:30Wow.

1:13:31Yeah, there was a bent iPhone out there.

1:13:33Still happens.

1:13:34A more modern vintage.

1:13:35I don't know.

1:13:36And of course there was the Apple watch, which was a fascinating launch.

1:13:41Remember not released, just announced.

1:13:46They didn't release it until the next spring, but they showed it with that classic, what doesn't it do?

1:13:53It does everything digital touch.

1:13:55It'll send your heartbeat.

1:13:57Oh, your kids are going to love it.

1:13:58Hey, it's time for lunch. Draw a fish, send it to your friend.

1:14:01Was it this event or the next event where they had like marathon runners and people coming on stage?

1:14:12I don't think it was this event.

1:14:14I think it was the next one.

1:14:16But of course we got the gold watch, right?

1:14:21Yep.

1:14:22And that's this one.

1:14:23Yep.

1:14:24That's what IDG, in hindsight, that's what IDG should have gotten me.

1:14:26They should have.

1:14:28For all my years of service, they said we're going to get you a gold watch.

1:14:30Series one.

1:14:31We had to lay off a little bit sooner.

1:14:33Your severance is being paid in gold watch.

1:14:37But of course the most infamous thing, which I cannot believe this happened at this iPhone event,

1:14:43but it did when Apple created their own malware in the form of a U2 album that they infected every Apple device with.

1:14:54Technically U2 created the malware and Apple just distributed it.

1:14:59That's true.

1:15:00That's true.

1:15:01They didn't check that one.

1:15:02Yeah, this is the little finger touch between Tim and Bono.

1:15:07Yep.

1:15:08The cringiest thing.

1:15:09That was at this event.

1:15:10I mean, lots of Apple events are cringy.

1:15:12That was the cringiest things that ever happened at an Apple event.

1:15:14Because it genuinely felt like nobody knew what was going to happen at that moment.

1:15:20But they just did that.

1:15:23And I'm not really sure how that came about, right?

1:15:26Like we're going to touch our fingers together.

1:15:28It really felt like it was just a thing that started happening.

1:15:30And they did it, so they committed to it.

1:15:32And it just truly felt like nobody had a plan for that.

1:15:37Where like, also just the whole idea of it was just in hindsight very poorly thought out.

1:15:42So I'll just say, they did this at the Flint Center in Cupertino.

1:15:47Incredibly crowded and cramped.

1:15:50The seating was awful.

1:15:51We were in the back.

1:15:52I'm like, just it was so, my knees are hitting the seat in front of me.

1:15:56And I'm not tall, I'm just average height.

1:15:59I'm trying to type and my elbows are in at my side.

1:16:03And it was super uncomfortable.

1:16:05I'm also going through my head, all the stress of knowing that this is the end for my job.

1:16:10And the job of more than half of the people next to me.

1:16:14And I got to be honest, I missed this moment.

1:16:17I was typing something.

1:16:19I was doing work and typing something in.

1:16:22And I never saw the finger touch until after.

1:16:24So I missed a memeable moment, alas.

1:16:27Maybe you would have like turned to dust if you had seen it.

1:16:31Maybe, maybe.

1:16:33Yeah, dodged a bullet there.

1:16:34So, because I'm sure there are people that maybe aren't completely familiar with what happened here.

1:16:39You two wrote and had a new album called Songs of Innocence.

1:16:42And they did a deal with Apple where for some reason they would distribute this album to everybody that owned an iPhone.

1:16:50It was like, went to every iPhone.

1:16:52Everybody that had an iTunes account.

1:16:53iTunes account.

1:16:54Got it.

1:16:55It was this thing where they got paid a blanket fee or a very low fee, but it was to everybody.

1:17:03So they got a big check.

1:17:04Probably more than they would have made otherwise.

1:17:06And this album.

1:17:08And then they would have gone to number one on the charts probably because of it for this album.

1:17:13And that was the deal that Apple made.

1:17:15And Apple had previous, obviously, relationships with you two.

1:17:17And they had done the YouTube iPod and they had performed at the California Theater for Steve Jobs at that event.

1:17:23And they came out and they did this.

1:17:25I think ironically, or maybe not, as a long time YouTube fan, it's not a very good album.

1:17:31It's not very good.

1:17:32It's like one of my least favorite YouTube album.

1:17:34So that's sad.

1:17:36It's just sad.

1:17:37So it was, yeah, malware in all senses of the word.

1:17:41I believe, so somebody wrote about this a while ago, I think, that there is a tool to remove it?

1:17:49To remove it from your library.

1:17:51There's a tool to remove it.

1:17:52You can go to, there was, I don't know if it still works, but there was a URL they would send people to.

1:17:57And it would remove Songs of Innocence from your iTunes library.

1:18:02For those people who didn't want to see that.

1:18:05I ran to people who were like, "Oh, that YouTube album is still there."

1:18:07People were like, "I never bought anything on Apple, but I have this YouTube album."

1:18:11I'm like, "Yeah."

1:18:12Well, if you just had streaming, right?

1:18:15You were just streaming.

1:18:17But now you still have this purchased item in your library.

1:18:24Apple Pay launched in October of 2014.

1:18:27Hey.

1:18:28Which, you know, I think it's one of these things that was exciting when it started.

1:18:32And now it's just like, could not be more ubiquitous.

1:18:35Do you remember? This was a moment in upgrade history because I got to report firsthand using Apple Pay to buy peanut butter and-

1:18:43Manchego cheese.

1:18:44Manchego cheese.

1:18:45Yes.

1:18:46Manchego cheese.

1:18:47Yes.

1:18:48At my local Whole Foods.

1:18:49Of course.

1:18:50Using Apple Pay.

1:18:51It's true.

1:18:52The grind, from the grinder, peanut butter from that grinder and the Manchego cheese.

1:18:55I ought to do that again.

1:18:56To celebrate the 10th, I ought to go get some grind, ground up peanut butter and some Manchego cheese.

1:19:02You should do that.

1:19:03I should. Yeah.

1:19:04Obviously I love it and still do because of the tube.

1:19:07And also like Apple Pay just rolled out significantly easier here, I think, than it did in the U.S.

1:19:14We'll do a little preview of stories.

1:19:17I feel like we need to do some 10th anniversary things on upgrade once we reach our 10th anniversary.

1:19:23And one of them is we should cover this Apple Pay launch in a little more detail because I'll just say now,

1:19:28Apple Pay, like everybody else had tried this, Samsung and Google had tried this, didn't work.

1:19:34Apple did it and it like, it really set off a huge change in U.S. transactions because the U.S.

1:19:42was so far behind and this was a major driver in getting uptake of contactless payments in general in the U.S.

1:19:49You just didn't have them.

1:19:50You were so far behind.

1:19:51Where here everybody was using contactless cards, like their debit card had a chip in it and you just used them.

1:19:56Right.

1:19:57And that had failed in the U.S. basically to roll it out.

1:19:59I know I've said it before, but like I got a card with a chip in it and then like eight months later,

1:20:03my bank said, "We sent you a new card without a chip in it."

1:20:06I'm like, "What just happened?"

1:20:07And they're like, "Well, we gave up on that."

1:20:09So, yeah, so now when I travel internationally, like I just did,

1:20:13used to be as an American when you travel overseas, you'd be like, "Whoa, they really got it together.

1:20:18We're so behind."

1:20:19And now, not so much.

1:20:21Not a little bit, but not so much.

1:20:23And I really firmly believe that Apple Pay was the impetus for finally changing that.

1:20:29In May of 2014, Apple acquired Beats for $3 billion.

1:20:35Hey, speaking of Dr. Dre, who appeared in the Olympics closing ceremonies.

1:20:40So this was the combination of Beats Music, which had launched a few months earlier, which is an app, right?

1:20:47Beats Music, a music streaming service that me and Federico loved.

1:20:50And also the electronics company, too.

1:20:54And that started, I think, Apple's dominance in headphones, I think probably came from this.

1:21:00I'm sure they got some really good talent for helping them build things like AirPods and stuff like that.

1:21:05But also, they continue to have the Beats brand.

1:21:07But then it also gave them the underpinnings to create a music streaming service in Apple Music.

1:21:12So another huge moment.

1:21:14I will say, there's a few more things on this list.

1:21:19But I am very struck in going through this, how important 2014 was for Apple.

1:21:23Like, bigger phones, the first Apple Watch, Apple Pay, Beats, Swift was announced for WWDC.

1:21:33Which, I remember that WWDC, for me, was a very boring one.

1:21:38It was a very boring WWDC.

1:21:40But for developers, it was a big deal.

1:21:42And Swift was the thing for that WWDC.

1:21:44And so it took up a lot of time in the keynote, rightly so.

1:21:47But as somebody who is not a developer, this is one of the times where the WWDC keynote kind of went over my head.

1:21:53I can't think of another one that was like this.

1:21:57But they obviously spent a lot of time really focusing on Swift.

1:22:01And like, you know, ten years later, Swift seems to be going great.

1:22:07Also in 2014, the European Union launches a formal investigation into Apple's tax arrangements with Ireland.

1:22:18Which ended up going to the point of Apple paying a lot of money.

1:22:24I guess it's our second Apple Pay story from this year.

1:22:27Oh, hey!

1:22:28There we go.

1:22:30But this is also like, it was funny looking back at this.

1:22:33Oh, the European Union's here and they got some stuff to say, you know?

1:22:37Yeah.

1:22:38Very fun.

1:22:39And the last thing I had was Tim Cook published an op-ed piece in Bloomberg Businessweek where he comes out as gay.

1:22:46That also happened in 2014.

1:22:47It's a big year.

1:22:48Big year.

1:22:50And Upgrade launched.

1:22:52Of course.

1:22:53Oh, wait.

1:22:54That's how we started this.

1:22:55Relay was announced and then it launched.

1:22:57And then about a month later, Upgrade 1 happened.

1:22:59So, yeah.

1:23:00It's good stuff.

1:23:01Well, happy anniversary.

1:23:02And there'll be more celebrations, I'm sure.

1:23:05But we already had the big Relay 10 event as well.

1:23:09So, it's the fun season.

1:23:13This is a good, if we're near the bottom of the parfait or whatever you said it was.

1:23:19The trifle.

1:23:20The trifle.

1:23:21It's going pretty well so far now down here at the bottom.

1:23:23It's pretty nice.

1:23:24Is trifle not a thing?

1:23:26Because you seem to have not locked into the trifle idea.

1:23:31Do you know I have trifles?

1:23:33I think it's a very English thing.

1:23:36I think we probably do have it, but it's very English.

1:23:41It's not a common thing.

1:23:43Maybe it's something to help with Americans.

1:23:45There's an episode of Friends where Rachel makes a trifle and she puts meat in it.

1:23:50Oh, no.

1:23:52Because she gets the recipe mixed up with another recipe.

1:23:56And then that is a very funny episode of Friends where Rachel is serving the trifle and everyone thinks it's disgusting, but of course, Joey loves it.

1:24:04Of course.

1:24:05Oh, right.

1:24:06He polishes it off, right?

1:24:08I think I remember that shot where he's like, they got him and he's got the spoon and the bowl and he's like, "Oh, this is great."

1:24:13He's having a great time.

1:24:15Yeah.

1:24:16They make this sometimes, I think, on Great British Bake Off.

1:24:19But Great British Bake Off, as an aside, is amazing in part as an American because there are the things that they make that we're like, yes, okay.

1:24:29They're things that they treat as incredibly exotic as an American.

1:24:35I'm like, well, that's just a thing.

1:24:36Why is that exotic?

1:24:37It's because it's American.

1:24:38It's not a thing that happened in England for whatever reason, or at least it happened in America.

1:24:42It might not be from America, but it happened.

1:24:44And then there are the things that they say that as normal and as an American, you go, "What? A what now?"

1:24:54Because it's a very common English thing that – or a thing that English people know about.

1:25:01In some cases, they'll be like, "This is a Swedish cake."

1:25:03And I'm like, "I have never heard of this thing."

1:25:06Oh, no, no, no.

1:25:07Sometimes they show the Swedish cakes and I'm like, "I have no idea what that Swedish cake is."

1:25:11Yeah, the one in particular.

1:25:12Yeah, they'd sometimes surprise the people and they're like, "I've never heard of this."

1:25:15The one that made me laugh the most, and we had this, I should say, we had this.

1:25:21Lauren ordered it as a dessert at one of the places we went when we were in in the UK.

1:25:29Because they announced, Paul Hollywood announced that everybody was going to be making,

1:25:34and I'm going to say it in a clear way, they were going to be making tart tarta,

1:25:43which is a French dish commonly known apparently in England.

1:25:49As an American watching, everybody starts saying, "Tartata, tartata, tartata, tartata, tartata."

1:25:57And Lauren and I thought we had lost our minds.

1:26:00And we finally figured out what they were saying.

1:26:02It was like, "Turn on the captions, see what it is."

1:26:04So anyway, Lauren had a tartata.

1:26:05It was nice.

1:26:06Tartata.

1:26:07That is actually a joke in our household because Indian likes tartata, and I always got tartata.

1:26:13So there you go.

1:26:14Tartata.

1:26:15There you go.

1:26:16Tartata.

1:26:17It's a thing.

1:26:18We've reached the end of the trifle.

1:26:19Oh, that's the end.

1:26:20So that was the nice, Joey was scooping out the bottom of the trifle right there.

1:26:23All right, great.

1:26:24The end of the trifle.

1:26:25We're going to do a couple of Ask Upgrade questions to finish out today's episode.

1:26:29The first comes in from Chip.

1:26:32Thank you.

1:26:33Who says?

1:26:34Listen to Chip.

1:26:35Listen to Chip.

1:26:36"I rarely see out in the world brightly colored cars, premium phones, or other big ticket

1:26:41items.

1:26:42Do you think Apple could push the market in a more color-friendly direction, or does their

1:26:45market research tell them that pro customers are in fact boring and it's not worth it?

1:26:49Is the colors are leading or is the colors are following?

1:26:52Love the podcast, especially the video version."

1:26:55Oh, I see which Chip this is.

1:26:58This is, this is a nepotism question.

1:27:01Oh, I see what you're doing Chip.

1:27:04I see it.

1:27:06Look, we don't know.

1:27:08Apple knows exactly how many of each color of phone they sell and in what markets.

1:27:14I don't know though, has the iPhone pro really ever been made in a bright color?

1:27:20And maybe it's just because of the materials they use are not conducive.

1:27:24The premium materials they use are not conducive to bright colors.

1:27:27They could, they really, with the, the anodization and the coatings they use and all that, that

1:27:31they can't make it be bright.

1:27:33And maybe there's a very technical reason why.

1:27:36I, I'm not sure that they even have the data to say, oh, we definitely can't make one option

1:27:41that's fun because nobody will want that.

1:27:44That's probably, you know, maybe, maybe so.

1:27:47I just, I feel like I think Apple has enough sway and we've seen it with, you know, even

1:27:53back in the iMac days, Apple can make something that people really like, and I think they

1:27:57could affect fashion.

1:27:59So I think they, the colors are, could push things in that direction if they wanted to.

1:28:02But again, I do think it's, you know, in the end, if they're going to choose a great premium

1:28:06material or they're going to choose a, something that's a bright color, they're going to choose

1:28:14the premium material every time.

1:28:15And so maybe that's the reason.

1:28:17What do you think Mike?

1:28:20I would put Apple in the category of kind of like fashion and in fashion there's lots

1:28:27of color options.

1:28:28And I think that the thing that I keep coming back to, we come back to a bunch of times

1:28:32is that people put their phones into a variety of high color cases.

1:28:40The phones can also be fun colors too.

1:28:42I don't think that just because it's pro, it should mean that it is bland in color.

1:28:51I just, I don't think that's the case.

1:28:54Yeah, I think choice is good and that if they have the ability to offer a choice that's

1:29:01fun, even if it's just one, I wish they would do it because I would probably choose it.

1:29:07And these rumored new base iPhones look fun.

1:29:12And again, I always hear from people who are like, "Oh, I don't want to do color phones."

1:29:16Like they're never going to, like there's always a black phone and a white phone and

1:29:20a gray phone.

1:29:21Like I, my argument is just some more choice would be nice.

1:29:25But yes, I think to Chip's point, there are a lot of gray cars out there.

1:29:29We do live in that era and maybe Apple is following.

1:29:34I do think that Apple could be influential here if it tried to push things a little bit.

1:29:38But, you know, Apple knows, like if Apple puts out five iPhone 16s and the boring ones

1:29:44are the ones that sell best, then I mean, I understand it, right?

1:29:48They've got their sales data.

1:29:50So maybe, maybe, but I don't know.

1:29:53Or maybe they know that some people like pastels and some people like bright colors and so

1:29:56they alternate years and that's how they do it.

1:29:58And it's like, okay, I just, I wish the pro stuff was more fun.

1:30:01I wish I had a, had the ability to get a more brightly colored phone or, or laptop for that matter.

1:30:08Right.

1:30:09And we have another question here.

1:30:12It comes in from Brad who says, "My wife and I live in a busy house with our three young children.

1:30:17We have a shared Google calendar for all of our family events.

1:30:20We currently transcribe this calendar onto a pair of whiteboards this week and next week

1:30:24that we stick onto our fridge.

1:30:26I would love to replace these with something digital."

1:30:28And I'm thinking an e-ink display would be good, giving there is no power on the front of the fridge.

1:30:34Do you have any suggestions about how I might go about this project?

1:30:37Do I ever?

1:30:40Yes.

1:30:41Yeah.

1:30:42So I've got a, I've got a post that we'll put in the show notes about my e-ink calendar that I built.

1:30:51I used a bunch of Python scripts from a German guy and his 3D model, I got a 3D printed model.

1:31:03And then I've updated it since then to do exactly what Brad is describing.

1:31:09So the only difference is that I leave it by the side of my microwave and it's, so it's plugged in all the time

1:31:15and it updates every hour.

1:31:16But you could very easily do something where you stick it on to your fridge,

1:31:24but you'd have to plug it in to update it every so often, right?

1:31:28Because that's the, there's a raspberry pie attached there too.

1:31:32And it does need power.

1:31:33The screen doesn't need power, but the device that does the updating needs power.

1:31:37That's the thing you could do on a Sunday or whatever, right?

1:31:40You go and you update it and you're kind of publishing it.

1:31:42If it can show the whole week, right?

1:31:44That's the question.

1:31:45If it needs to update midweek, you would have to do it.

1:31:47So if, you know, but I did it with a thing that's just setting to the side.

1:31:51There are other things that use different technologies that I haven't liked as much that have like,

1:31:56that you can build with a, that have a little battery in it.

1:32:01And so those will last for a while.

1:32:04Dan Morin's using one of those in one of his, he made an on-air display using a battery operated e-ink device.

1:32:14Which is kind of cool.

1:32:16And so it's checking every 10 minutes.

1:32:19It wakes up and checks to see if Dan is recording a podcast and all of that.

1:32:23And so that's a, that's a different, that's the ink plate six color.

1:32:27But for what Brad's doing, I would say, yeah, e-ink is great.

1:32:31And at some point I should probably put a version of my modified version of the German guys.

1:32:39His is like a portal themed calendar.

1:32:42And I've stripped all of that stuff out, but I've added a bunch of other stuff in.

1:32:46It shows my calendar and our family calendar and Lauren's calendar.

1:32:50And they're in different formats like color or italics.

1:32:54It's got a little symbol on the night for the trash to go out about whether we're taking out our paper or our glass and plastic.

1:33:03That is great.

1:33:05It's got a little Apple weather widget in it.

1:33:08It's got a bunch of stuff in it.

1:33:09So, and if you know Python, especially you can play around with it and make it do anything you want really.

1:33:14So I think e-ink is fun and it's a great way to do it, but you do need power at least to update the display.

1:33:20So if you've got a way to, you know, if you can, if you can get something that just displays your calendar, you know, yeah, for a week or whatever, you can plug it in on Sunday, have it reload and then stick it on the, on the fridge.

1:33:31That would work too.

1:33:33If you would like to send us in your questions for Ask Upgrade or your feedback or follow up, you can always go to upgradefeedback.com.

1:33:41You can check out Jason's work over at sixcolors.com and you can hear him over the incomparable.com and here on Relay where you can hear me too.

1:33:48You can also check out my work at cortexbrand.com.

1:33:51You can find us online.

1:33:52Jason is @jsnell, J S N E double L.

1:33:55I am @imike, I M Y K E.

1:33:58You can watch video clips of the show on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube or @upgraderelay.

1:34:03Thank you to our members who support us with Upgrade Plus.

1:34:05If you would like longer ad free versions of the show each and every week, please go to getupgradeplus.com, find out more and sign up.

1:34:13And most of all, as always, thank you for listening.

1:34:16Oh, and thank you to our sponsors this week, Delete Me and Ooni.

1:34:19We'll be back next time.

1:34:20Until then, say goodbye Jason Snow.

1:34:22Goodbye everybody.

1:34:23Bye everybody.

1:34:25[Music]

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