The Accidental Tech Podcast

116: Women Aren't a Minority

 

  We're going live. I'm tired of this. She got a point with the reckon. [TS]

  Yeah you know somewhere you've got to be here to be out in the backyard with a two by four. [TS]

  If that's actually what happened and that actually worked since almost hitting the record with a two by four. [TS]

  It has not come back here reckon with a two by four as a coat for something you did you really take a two by four to a [TS]

  raccoon like it's a friggin baseball bat. Yes. Have you ever played baseball in your life. I have played. [TS]

  I don't remember whether I've actually gotten a hit. It was probably more like polo really. [TS]

  But the got a new sport that Marco knows exists. Oh yeah that's right that's it that's on horses the right. [TS]

  Yeah but you're swinging down to a thing on the ground where you're writing hops. [TS]

  Someone please draw that marker like Don Quixote. [TS]

  On top of the thing with a two by four rabid racoon and the core of the duck hiding. Guarding its eggs. [TS]

  Now people think we're crazy oh don't fall you're going to are there. I mean I didn't like go and fetch a two by four. [TS]

  I happened to have a few in the backyard from Adam's party we were holding down a big tarp with them so I had a few [TS]

  very long two by fours in the back yard [TS]

  and were standing the backyard with these two raccoons stalking the ducks It's nesting in our backyard. [TS]

  And they already gone for once the duck made some crazy noise and scared on temporal they were just like sitting there. [TS]

  Maybe twelve feet away wasn't very fun or an area sit in the tree [TS]

  and we tried like sharing the flashlight in their face during pine cones at them. [TS]

  We hit the MUCH few times the pine cones. Didn't give two craps. [TS]

  So eventually I realized oh maybe they don't like water so. [TS]

  So I got the hose and sprayed them [TS]

  and made them slightly damp I mean it wasn't it wasn't even that much pressure because it was a terrible hose so I like. [TS]

  I believe in the shower with Go put some conditioner and their hair. Yeah I mean it was. [TS]

  It was the least intimidating use of a hose probably in history and. [TS]

  And they kind of seem to get annoyed by the hose and kind of like walked away slowly. [TS]

  But then eventually they came back. [TS]

  And that's they were within swing distance of this two before which is probably if I had to guess six feet long. [TS]

  So I tried swinging at it. And I missed completely. But the area that I hit I had like hill into a tree. [TS]

  And the area that I hit was. I don't know a couple of feet from the raccoon. Then they left. [TS]

  And they have not come back. That was and it was now two or three nights ago. [TS]

  So can you explain why you think of these unborn docs have a greater right. [TS]

  Right to life than raccoons that are hungry. There's a lot of other food for their accidents to eat around here. [TS]

  They have no shortage of food they'd have no trouble finding food. Used to be my trash. [TS]

  Now it's all the neighbors trash and I got a trash house. And it's. [TS]

  They If it wasn't this duck they would you go eat somebody's garbage and get a sandwich like they are fine with food. [TS]

  So I don't feel bad about this at all. Also reckons are kind of ducks. [TS]

  I know that ducks can be both to some people but Ducks have not been to me. [TS]

  Reckons have that to me so I'm sure I have a bias here I'm sure we're going to hear from all the record rights [TS]

  activists. I don't know I don't like residents and. I have no reason to dislike ducks. [TS]

  Also it just seems like kind of a cheap shot like the mother duck. Is sitting on eleven eggs. [TS]

  Shift to sit there for like a month to bake them. [TS]

  That's like that like hitting somebody the back like it's a cheap shot to like to try to attack her. Well. [TS]

  Like they're in that connection the situation might have a fair fight somewhere. You know. [TS]

  Go fight until the well do dwell not the next time you're getting an omelet. [TS]

  But that doesn't require murdering what we do to the chickens that we get eggs from is way worse than anything else [TS]

  or having to the doc that is true. That's a fair point no I mean and look. [TS]

  This is why I'm not like you know making a big political stink about my animal policies here. [TS]

  Because I know that whatever opinion I have of the animals in my backyard. Is completely. [TS]

  It's completely hypocritical for me to keep having meat and animal products in my life. [TS]

  I think the motivation for this. In the end. Is that the potential cuteness of baby ducks. [TS]

  Outweighs everything and everyone to secure baby ducks. Well it's also the novelty. [TS]

  You know we we've seen raccoons around our house. [TS]

  Since we moved in here almost five years ago this is the first I've had dogs. [TS]

  And we have never seen baby ducks and those were some We've seen any duck. And you know. [TS]

  And the adult book is pretty good pretty cool looking like. [TS]

  But it is awesome pictures ever seen OK she's a mallard she has like the Big Blue Square on a ring [TS]

  and everything it's great for her are waiting. So yeah. So she was she looks awesome. Great picture opportunities. [TS]

  Nobody wants a picture of a raccoon at night. [TS]

  You know if this was I guess I'm trying to think of Marlon be overcome with a reference I'm just going to go with [TS]

  Adventure Time This is an episode of venture time those eggs but hats and tiny alligators are come out of all them. [TS]

  Never seen no right so let's start the show. We have some follow up. Do we want to talk about some H.F.S. Plus. [TS]

  That was fast today. You know was fast. We had a question about it. I think we're talking about our Sonali G.'s. [TS]

  And Cain. I think name said that. [TS]

  Aren't you guys concerned about a trust plus corruption why aren't you concerned about yaks T three [TS]

  or four corruption on your salary. [TS]

  And my understanding is that the ex the three four don't have any of the functionality John wants built into the next [TS]

  oath and file has an electric something so on and so forth I think that is correct [TS]

  but I'm not sure either way I'm pretty sure this analogy does not have any check something. [TS]

  So why aren't we concerned about corruption. When using each of us bus analogies I am. I am concerned about it. [TS]

  I'm exactly concerned about it as I am all the time I wish my phonology had data integrity I wish around the FS. [TS]

  Why don't you build your own ass and put the of us on a cause that sounds like a lot of work and really complicated [TS]

  and I should reiterate it maybe didn't save us unless show we should reiterate for the people who have listed all [TS]

  serious arsenal of his were given to us by this analogy Corp. So these were gifts. [TS]

  I probably wouldn't about this for myself. [TS]

  Now that I have it I think it's great but it's the only math of ever own so I can't tell you whether it's better [TS]

  or worse than any of the Nats I do know that I really wish had dated integrity. [TS]

  And if someone made one of these things with the FS on it. At this point having lived with an ass for a long time. [TS]

  I think I would probably consider buying it but I already have one [TS]

  and some was kind of living with the potential crappiness of what I've got [TS]

  and worrying about the same amount I worry about everything else I don't know if you guys are worrying about it [TS]

  or just accepting your fate like so many other people don't care. No. [TS]

  And we should also mention Like John said these are all gifts from some knowledge e and. [TS]

  I was in the same situation as John never had a NASA before I freaking love my son ology. [TS]

  And I've been asked a lot lately. Lately I'm not sure why but we had we were all given D.S. [TS]

  Eighteen thirteen pluses [TS]

  and I believe the modern version of that box is the eight hundred fifteen plus senility has plenty of other models this [TS]

  one is pretty large both physically and in terms of disk space because it takes eight disks. [TS]

  But they have much more versions they also have a two fourteen play which they also sent me one of those. [TS]

  Which is much better for doing things like posting plex if that's your cup of tea because it has the appropriate chips [TS]

  for hardware transcoding. But. But we've been asked a lot lately. A lot lately and it's D.S. Eight hundred thirteen. [TS]

  Is our model D.S. Eight hundred fifteen is the modern version of it. [TS]

  And I asked listeners I got mine I mean we're talking to the person who gave him to us like you know. [TS]

  What's the outlook are you guys going to add data integrity features and you know then. [TS]

  Don't talk about future products blah blah blah like that my request has been heard thus far I don't think anything has [TS]

  happened on one front but I remain hopeful that some point in the future they will come up with a new product [TS]

  or new software update or something that had that integrity features especially on a nast like. [TS]

  I don't stress that Iowa was. I'd be fine for it to spend its time and energy doing check something. [TS]

  It wouldn't wouldn't affect my use of. You know this I mean and it's not an issue of of your request being heard. [TS]

  We know that your requests have been heard by people at Apple for years about their file system. [TS]

  I think phonology slightly more motivated than Apple to because this is a common feature of NASA like they are a lot of [TS]

  the a lot of mass products that are out there are built on the FS plus [TS]

  or some other checks among file system release have it as an option. Like it's a good point right. [TS]

  It's in you know one of the features that people look for an ass. [TS]

  This is one of them [TS]

  and you know I think they're not adding this probably just a statement on the state of like Linux you have a support [TS]

  or you know just how many ties their current software stack as with the their current file system and everything [TS]

  but anyway. It could happen. All right so do we want to cover a few more things about photos. The app on no S ten. [TS]

  Same person. [TS]

  More questions about aren't we concerned he wants to know what we're concerned about are we concerned about the privacy [TS]

  aspects of using cloud sync with Apple's photos that up. Specifically about like. [TS]

  What kind of security they use to stop Apple employees or the N.S.A. [TS]

  or Whatever from viewing photos about their authorization out of there on the cloud. [TS]

  And my answer this one is similar to the amp about check something like. [TS]

  I don't I have don't know what the situation is I assume the N.S.A. Can see all of my pictures. I think is a safe bet. [TS]

  For everybody. [TS]

  I assume that Apple is making a reasonable effort to keep them secure like they do with all their stuff [TS]

  but in the end you are uploading all of your pictures to a server controlled by a corporation that you have no control [TS]

  over. So I have no idea if they have access to have extras. [TS]

  I would recommend that if you have pictures that you don't want the world to see. [TS]

  Don't put them into a cloud photo thinking service. Period. Yeah. That's basically my answer is. [TS]

  I don't have any pictures that I would be that would be a huge problem. If somebody else saw them. [TS]

  But if you did like the solution is like. There's nothing you can do the solutions do not applaud them to anybody. [TS]

  Like that's it that's your home that's your only solution [TS]

  and even that like who knows they could be breaking into your computer and getting they were never [TS]

  but there is no I don't think there's any sort of technological guarantee that at this point that a company was well [TS]

  meaning as they might be could give they were making I think oh I previously didn't want to upload these pictures on my [TS]

  tax returns and social security number two and one photo service. [TS]

  But now that I've heard this promise from this company. I will totally do it. It's just I've you know. [TS]

  I won't I just shouldn't do it. There's nothing you know as. It's not their fault they could be a hundred percent. [TS]

  Sincere that they're doing everything they can to protect your photos. [TS]

  But I think history has shown that there are so many things between their promise and you. Namely the Internet that. [TS]

  That need one of those parties has control over that the N.S.A. Perhaps does. So just yet just on a bullet Yep agreed. [TS]

  All right. And what about if you were to edit things in photos. [TS]

  That's from Hamp a three questions in a row don't you care about aren't you worried about. Aren't you concerned about. [TS]

  Perhaps we are this is what you don't you care about your edits. Like so we talked about last time. [TS]

  Having a bunch of photos. And they're all just a bunch of J. [TS]

  Pegs or RAW files [TS]

  or whatever in a big folder her he's a worse case scenario you could extract all those files from this crazy bundle [TS]

  thing. [TS]

  And just have a bunch of pigs in folders like that by putting your photos into this system whether be i Photo the new [TS]

  photos application or anything else. [TS]

  You're not really losing is not because it's very good about preserving the originals [TS]

  and the originals are still there for you to get. [TS]

  You can always post originals out and go back that is a bunch of folders right. [TS]

  But what about your added to that point what if you spent a long time editing your photos adjusting everything [TS]

  or all those that had been adjustments are not in the photos that the whole point is it doesn't write them back to the [TS]

  photos that keep the edit separate That's a feature. [TS]

  But you know if you're if you're saying that you can just pull get rid of a library player for that you're losing all [TS]

  your at it. My answer to this is that I rarely edit my photos. Because I have no idea had photos. [TS]

  So that's a problem like crop photos. Occasionally I will move some sliders a tiny little bit. [TS]

  But in the most part I feel like I'm making the photos worse and not better and. I just don't I just don't edit them. [TS]

  And so it's not a problem for me. If it's a problem for you. [TS]

  I'm not sure what the solution is because I like the idea of never altering the originals Obviously if there was like [TS]

  that's part of it. [TS]

  But I don't know how you would save the edits in a way that is not specific to any one application that applies the [TS]

  edits. Yeah I mean that's that's kind of the problem like. You know Adobe and their apps they have as part of the D.M.G. [TS]

  Format they can embed. The edits. Into the D.M.G. Files and. [TS]

  And so that's cool with that then you can bet to see any Adobe program. And load up. Those edits. [TS]

  When they're embedded in the file and that's that's kind of what. [TS]

  What I always wanted for so long which is give me one file that has everything in it that I can move around in the file [TS]

  system and operate on as I need to the Apple ecosystem as far as you know has never had that [TS]

  but it's a hard problem to solve. Because what do you do. If you know what. [TS]

  Right now they just moved from my photo in Aperture. To New Photos app. I Photo aperture and the New Photos app. [TS]

  All have different. Editing controls. With different capabilities. [TS]

  That probably many of these different algorithms from each other so you couldn't even say like. [TS]

  You know reduce highlights by point two you know if you say that in the file then the next version the program might [TS]

  interpret that differently. Or a different program. Ten years from now will interpret that differently. [TS]

  And it might not look the way you want so I think the only really sane long term solution here is to either not care [TS]

  about your at it's Or for this. For the one you edit. [TS]

  When you're going to move platforms are going to you're going to move. Editors to like write them all out right. [TS]

  The ones that you want to save as J. Packs or be doing that the whole time. [TS]

  And just maintain separate copies that have the edits Big Dan if that's really important to you. [TS]

  It is a very good question. The problem is I don't think. I don't think there's a good way to solve it. [TS]

  That will actually last long term [TS]

  and be cross-platform uncross app for me it's very similar to what John said just a little bit step further I do know [TS]

  how to add. Photos. A little bit. And I can make them look better. Sometimes. [TS]

  But I don't edit most of the photos I take or if I do it's like a really basic crop [TS]

  and maybe a very small adjustment to exposure and stuff [TS]

  but not you know not heavy edits that would that are you know that important. As I as time goes on. [TS]

  I've gotten better at editing. [TS]

  So if I was going to go back and pull up an old photo would probably want to redo my edits to it with the tools [TS]

  and techniques and abilities that I have today rather than. [TS]

  You know when I first did the edit five years ago when I didn't know about white balance. You know stuff like that. [TS]

  So this is it is a very valid question to ask Of what do you do with your editor moves isn't that is a very valid [TS]

  question to ask for a lot of people. [TS]

  But it sounds like none of the three of us are the kind of people who are that much about that [TS]

  and also a great solution I don't think exists. [TS]

  Well you know it's burn your editor copies to like a new copy like bring them to J. [TS]

  Vague or something but that's what I was saying Yeah [TS]

  but I think that's the only solution I wouldn't say that's a good solution but it like to put the programs offer [TS]

  and I don't even know if i Phone or even offer that as an option. You could duplicate I don't know if it's. [TS]

  If it then stores that you could duplicate [TS]

  but I think what it did was a duplicate the original in the uterus have the same thing you just have a second fall for [TS]

  you to do a different set of and it's but it's still trying to keep them separate. Yeah I don't know I. [TS]

  This is definitely like an advanced user feature that most people will not need or use or ever care about. [TS]

  And so therefore Apple's apps probably will cover it very poorly. [TS]

  And if you really are very concerned about that kind of stuff you probably are going to be. [TS]

  One more control of your stuff. [TS]

  Anyway like like my wife to you know she's a provocateur [TS]

  and she's very serious you've heard her personal photography [TS]

  and so she doesn't use any of these programs she uses Adobe Bridge and manages things in the file system. [TS]

  And she is very very happy with that she has no desire to go into one of these men. [TS]

  Sinking library kind of program she said she tried apertures she tried Lightroom she hated them. [TS]

  She's she's the kind of person who like her edits. Are so much work. And so important. [TS]

  And she's so good at that like she wouldn't be able to to date to do the kind of move where shooter Sparrow Well that [TS]

  he's ever done but she does things manually so. She has all her raw files and then when she does heavy edits.. [TS]

  She saves them out of shape X. And so like. It wouldn't even be a problem for her in her system so anyway. [TS]

  I think the answer is if you're pro enough. Or if you're really into it or not to have a lot of vets. [TS]

  You probably need to come up with your own long term solution to this problem. We also got some feedback from Vincent. [TS]

  Yawn John go. I'm so sorry that I probably butchered that. [TS]

  But he said that he forgot to tweet this after episode one fourteen. But flicker gives a terabyte of storage free. [TS]

  And you can auto sync photos from your phone. So that is something I don't think we covered. [TS]

  When we were doing the rundown of competing photo services so it's probably worth taking note that everybody forgets [TS]

  about flicker. We forgot about. [TS]

  They still exist they give you a terabyte of free storage [TS]

  and apparently the out of sync photos from your phone so bad ass on forgetting that they still exist and. [TS]

  You know and it's not the new flicker whenever they did that big redesign. [TS]

  It was a pretty nice update and one terabyte free it's nothing to sneeze that I know a lot of people use it. Enjoy it. [TS]

  Don't forget it's there. It's a thing yet still a thing. Jiri Fiala. Again I'm so sorry I'm buttering all your names. [TS]

  When you disable i Cloud for the library there's a grace period of thirty days you can start start from scratch within [TS]

  those thirty days. My library now has now thirty two days in thirty thousand empty thumbnails no image can be opened. [TS]

  I can't reliably it it would just merge with this mass. [TS]

  The out of this is a series of two tweets [TS]

  and it's like well there's a thirty day grace period here on day thirty two should be the. [TS]

  Should the grace period be over a lot of people tell me other thirty day grace period like if you turn I call for a [TS]

  library off. Apple and just double your photos me if I say OK well. [TS]

  I know you turn this thing off and you know want to use it anymore. [TS]

  But will hang on to the photos that you have uploaded thirty day just in case you change your mind which is a nice. [TS]

  Safety features you don't like whoops I turned it off and delete all my photos [TS]

  and I actually don't have local copies on. And don't have my local copies. [TS]

  Like I have some copies are only in the cloud and I turned it off. Now they're all gone. [TS]

  So they're saving it for thirty days [TS]

  but this makes it all the more difficult to Seems like to do the big reset button of saying look I'm telling you apple [TS]

  I've got them all on my local machine. Please. Clear out your cloud I want to start over. [TS]

  And it's probably wise that isn't easy to do because people don't actually know [TS]

  when they have all the photos in their computer and if you gave them the ability to do it they would do it [TS]

  and feel sad when they realize they're missing years for the photos and Bob. [TS]

  You know gets back to the same from like about how do you restore from backup How does it synchronize things a lot of [TS]

  people respond to that question as well showing us screenshots of what happens when you. [TS]

  You know something gets screwed up and you go to a Time Machine backup and restore your photos library [TS]

  and you put the new files plop onto your desk and then you launch the app and how does it how does it reconcile. [TS]

  Just you know this version on disk with what's in the cloud [TS]

  and apparently throws up this big like repairing photo library thing and it basically just goes through there [TS]

  and reconciles and. [TS]

  So the reports of people who have sent me pictures of their libraries doing that seems to more [TS]

  or less work originally albeit after waiting for a long time for it to go through all your photos that it will. [TS]

  It'll figure things out. [TS]

  Somehow I mean I'm still wary about there being something screwed up somewhere [TS]

  and I would still like to have some way to reset everything even if it's through nine different dialogue boxes that all [TS]

  make me click on Advanced and enter my admin password. And you know. Swear oaths that I will sue Apple after. [TS]

  You know whatever I like. [TS]

  I would like there to be a way [TS]

  and I'm still a little bit worried about it I just hope I never have to find out how it behaves in that situation. [TS]

  Again and I base this on my experience which I have you know. [TS]

  Right or wrong because obviously contacts is not use clog it or anything like that. [TS]

  So it's very different terms of code base but contact is such a small status that. I don't have a lot of contacts. [TS]

  And just doing this with contacts like drove me mad took me hours. [TS]

  So I really don't want to do it for sixty thousand photos or to have all right. We also got. With regard to me. [TS]

  Discussing launched Ian cron last episode for tickling a web server to say that oh Aaron smack has not died which by [TS]

  the way it still has not died I'm speaking on it right now. A lot of people suggested. Launch Control by some was own. [TS]

  As a in another app to manage launch day jobs. [TS]

  I've not tried it it's not something I'm really not particularly concerned about [TS]

  but a lot of people recommended it so I have to assume it's probably pretty good. [TS]

  And then our final piece a follow up is from Enrico. [TS]

  Sissoko CIO all my and why did I jump on this sort someone maybe Sue C.T.O. [TS]

  or Sosa Sato Thank you Mark I see somebody saving me. He said. Microsoft is working on compiling Swift. [TS]

  To this is in regard to project island would I do get the chance to watch the video [TS]

  and for the most part it's it's what's been reported. [TS]

  But toward the end somebody in a question answer session imagine that a question and answer session in Moscone. [TS]

  Isn't that weird. Anyway. Please file a bug him. Exactly. Somebody asked hey what are you doing about swift and. [TS]

  I don't recall this was verbatim or not but the quote was there were there were two guys that to the presentation [TS]

  and one of them said. What is the plans for adopting swift into this as well. [TS]

  We're going there it's just a day at a time. [TS]

  This is all preliminary we're going to be struggling to get this out in time in the fall of the US up they want [TS]

  but that's just a doable. And then the other guy said. [TS]

  I think what you meant to say is we're not making any comment on swift today and this back [TS]

  and forth actually happened between the two of them on a couple of topics but it is a by Apple to have Q. [TS]

  and A it in to be fair this is probably why Apple doesn't have Q. and A. But one of the reasons. [TS]

  Well one of the reasons that in their secretive. Even when they don't need to be that the App Store. [TS]

  You know that well also to be fair. Have you ever been in a conference session where the Q. [TS]

  and A was worth sitting through as an audience member is always at least one [TS]

  or two good questions that I wish I could find this video this is I'm going I'm going to call on the listeners of [TS]

  A.D.P. To help me or tell me that I'm imagining things because I'm old but I seem to recall. In one Q. [TS]

  and As I said long ago [TS]

  when Steve Jobs just came back some angry person the audience never always angry people in the audience in the late [TS]

  ninety's because they were Apple developers in late ninety's and how could you not be angry. [TS]

  Held up a Newton and said When I spoke to do with this. To Steve Jobs after he'd canceled the Newton program. [TS]

  And I think Steve Jobs something like I'll tell you what you can do with it. Well. I magine that do that really happen. [TS]

  If so is that on a video somewhere I have V.H.S. Tapes of deputy C. [TS]

  Up stairs I haven't gone through them all I don't know where it is I can't find it.. [TS]

  Maybe I imagined it either way it's a good story whether or not is true. Do you still have a V.C.R. [TS]

  I don't know maybe in the attic a lot of things me how to get what is not in the attic. [TS]

  Between you and Stephen Hackett we could probably load any piece of software on any mac that has ever existed after. [TS]

  All right let's talk about something that's all from our first punch your site is a new sponsor. [TS]

  Although I believe we all know the people behind it. It is glide. [TS]

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  Stuff looks pretty cool. So much you can do it glide. [TS]

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  Jim govern polls the loop magazine. [TS]

  All of these apps were built with glide they all want to words from Apple for how good they were also any of you who [TS]

  went to the old Conference this year the wool conference app was also a glide app that's where I saw the. [TS]

  I'd be communication which was really cool. I was very impressed with how great that Apple is overall. [TS]

  So I blogged about Glad it was announced. [TS]

  This is before they approached us for the sponsorship and I like them that much. [TS]

  And I honestly think it's going to be a really big deal. [TS]

  The way I think about glide is I call it the Squarespace equivalent for apple tree a ship. [TS]

  It covers a lot of very common needs. And very common tasks for app building with way less time and money. [TS]

  Then writing everything from scratch and the results are fantastic. [TS]

  You don't even need to be a programmer to make a great app with glide. [TS]

  The source files are literally just like a bunch of folders on Dropbox with text or images or media files on them. [TS]

  And then when you make changes the app is updated live with those changes. [TS]

  And you can do advanced logic there scripting. [TS]

  You can do custom behaviour that way [TS]

  but you don't have to what's a very big deal for people who want to focus on the content of their app like if you're [TS]

  making a magazine like Jim. And you know not have to worry about the code behind it. [TS]

  And of course keeping up with Apple [TS]

  and glide is a huge deal for after Veltman consultants as well to me this is a no brainer if you're a consultant the [TS]

  market for custom coding. [TS]

  You know this is not going to go away has going to kill your job but is a massive number of projects. [TS]

  That shouldn't be made from scratch or can't afford to be. So if you're a consultant. [TS]

  Using glide you could offer clients fast small budget app creation. Far more efficiently impressively than before. [TS]

  So that all this is what's driving glides creators. To bring this to Kickstarter and release it to the public. [TS]

  It's almost on their campaign is already succeeded. As he glide. [TS]

  Glide believes everybody should be able to afford to make their own app. [TS]

  And so that's why they want to kick started to make this happen basically be like a big capital reason pewters had to [TS]

  get them to be able to release us after the public. [TS]

  So it was only a few more days left to support or pre-order go out on Kickstarter. [TS]

  And be one of the very first people have access to it. I mean to me. [TS]

  If you're a consultant This is a pretty big competitive advantage to have to like this. So I recommend checking it out. [TS]

  Go to create glide dot com slash A.T.P. To see more info or pre-order it. [TS]

  Thank you very much to glide for sponsoring our show. Yeah. We all are friends with the people that make why. [TS]

  And so they're also doing the nice people in the world to God so nice. But even if we weren't French toast. [TS]

  People genuinely This stuff is amazing and. Chris Harris who is. I think C.E.O. C.T.O. C.E.O. Of glide. [TS]

  He did a demo with me a long time ago now the probably a year plus ago. Of how glide works and this was via Face Time. [TS]

  When he was in London I was in the states and. [TS]

  Just watching things happen in Dropbox and then in the app changing moments there after it was mind blowing so. [TS]

  Truly this is amazing stuff and if. [TS]

  And if this is at all interesting to you I highly suggest checking it out it is very very cool. [TS]

  And they even like they think of so many little details I mean the things I've seen them do even like you have a drop [TS]

  box. So they read the files of Dropbox but they don't post them there. [TS]

  They host them on their own easy to stuff on Amazon Web Services because they you know they they want to make sure that [TS]

  Dropbox goes down your app doesn't go down. [TS]

  So they actually copied over their stuff after they read it after OP Oxo you like even thought of that. [TS]

  So these are great people I'm pretty sure also still owe Chris a beer from Will. But these are great people and. [TS]

  Yes here's a check of blood and. Hurry up because you're in on time. All right so we have a very important but. [TS]

  But fairly serious topic. We have some real time follow up. And that is that Evan Hindraf in the chat. Has drawn. You. [TS]

  You on the. [TS]

  You are you writing hops trying to stave off the reckons kind of punted on the face there though he just trying to draw [TS]

  a circle and Marco on it. I do appreciate the A.T.P. Sure though. [TS]

  Oh I didn't even notice that that's a good call it got the hose the hose the pathetic O's the little puddle of water [TS]

  because they're actually running away. Yeah. The Apple what's given the time. And strengths. Yeah. I'm impressed. [TS]

  Did a very impressed. All right so I was being slightly snarky about the seriousness of that. [TS]

  But all kidding aside we do really have a serious topic that we should discuss [TS]

  and we wanted to make sure we discussed in the main part of the show this. This week. [TS]

  And this all started with a tweet from John so John you want to kick us off or this will last month. Shanda last month. [TS]

  Remember what motivated us but you know. Or just. No time like the president just tweeted and asked this question. [TS]

  My tweet read it women and girls listen. Listen to A.T.P. Cohen. [TS]

  What do you think we could do to get more women and girls to listen to a D.P. [TS]

  Kind of wordy to go women and girls but I was trying to be inclusive in this thing but I was anyway. [TS]

  I too am addressing the question to. That was the question. [TS]

  And you can open the link to the tweet in the show [TS]

  and you can look at all the replies there are a lot of replies A lot of good replies. [TS]

  I plan to write a blog post about this. I tried to write a post about this. I had a lot of difficulty. [TS]

  Because I thought it would be straightforward but then a being fairly long [TS]

  and kind of boring so I figure who can make an attempt to talk about it on the show. [TS]

  Be nice to have a blog post that people can reference maybe I'll still try to make one. [TS]

  But anyway what I was going to do in the blog post was explain what I felt like I couldn't explain. On Twitter. [TS]

  Which is why if you look at the giant thread you don't see a lot of replies for me to be ill Mostly I was just asked a [TS]

  question and I was getting input writes I was reading all the responses but not really. Replying to all of them. [TS]

  Most of us didn't feel like a need for vital. [TS]

  Like I asked a question and people give their opinions and I listen to them right. But it doesn't. [TS]

  I think require some explanation a lot of people had legitimate questions about it [TS]

  and that's why I was trying to address my blog cause I think I'll probably start with those. [TS]

  The first thing or like the the sort of the premises or the assumptions of all this. [TS]

  My the premise of the question is that I think. Not a lot of women listen to a Tea Party. [TS]

  And many people as I How do you know that you take surveys a realist. Now we don't. You're basing it on T. Shirt sales. [TS]

  You know kind of but you know women come by men shirts [TS]

  and sometimes they don't even know what the breakdowns are green based on the names of people in who send feedback. [TS]

  The names of people who tweet the avatars on people Twitter accounts like. [TS]

  We have some inputs into the system like we're not taking a completely wild guess [TS]

  but the information we have is a middling imperfect What if ninety nine point nine percent of people listen are women. [TS]

  And they never write. Because women never like to write into the show. For some reason. Right. [TS]

  But and all we get is feedback from men [TS]

  and always tell melted like that with that would be a tone issue worth exploring. [TS]

  It was going to see the ball that we could be totally wrong [TS]

  but I'm going to say the given the best information available to us. [TS]

  I would put money on the fact that mostly men when they debate. Certainly the majority props the vast majority. [TS]

  I don't know if you two agree with that do you think you get that feeling absolutely. It's like what you said like the. [TS]

  The the few inputs that we do have with. You know feedback and things like that. [TS]

  It certainly does suggest that it's mostly men. [TS]

  Right so that's that's what we're starting from her wrong about that in this whole thing is is pointless [TS]

  and were barking up the wrong Korea but I have money on it that is just that's majority police in the Sharman. [TS]

  My second assumption is that of all the potential people in the world who might enjoy the show. [TS]

  If you say here that just put all those people on the board Those are all the people who potentially might enjoy the [TS]

  show. What percentage of the men who might enjoy the show. Are currently listening to it. [TS]

  And what percentage of the women who might enjoy the show are countless [TS]

  and do it I think we have a larger proportion of the men who might enjoy the show listening to it than we do the women. [TS]

  So we're going to grow our audience which I would like to do and here [TS]

  but this blog post like Suffice it to say that we want people to listen to the show I do you need to say that [TS]

  but like what you doing is Why do you care. [TS]

  I personally want people to listen to the show because it's gratifying when lots of people. [TS]

  I don't know if I need to explain. As to be evil but it's one of the primary like listeners equals good right. [TS]

  If you want to grow the audience. You feel like there is an untapped market. A women who you know. Say say we're doing. [TS]

  Say we're getting like one percent of the men who might enjoy the show or listening to it right. [TS]

  I think like point zero zero zero one percent of the women who might enjoy the show are listening to it so that seems [TS]

  like where we should go like this so we can get one percent of the men and one for some of them as a big boost [TS]

  but maybe you know one percent of the men. One percent of any group is our cap you know what I mean. [TS]

  So I feel like that's where we want to go to grow the audience first and. [TS]

  There are other reasons to like you know all the other reasons you hear people talk about what people don't talk about [TS]

  as I was you know why does diversity matter why do you care how many men or women in the show like. [TS]

  There are other really good reasons that many people talk to you about. [TS]

  But I'm appealing to people's sense of like just logic like. We want listeners. [TS]

  If we if women are not listening to the show and much greater proportions than men. [TS]

  Even though the woman who we think would like the show. That's that's bad we're not way. That is an untapped market. [TS]

  We want those people to listen to right that's you know. [TS]

  Ignoring everything else which are very important points about like we should be encouraging women to technology in it [TS]

  because of the culture of keeping them away [TS]

  and so it's like even just setting that aside if you think that is not important [TS]

  or whatever just purely by the numbers are they getting people to anybody and say look you know you're not. [TS]

  There's an audience out there that we feel like is not listening to the show in much larger proportions another [TS]

  audience and I want to figure out why and change. [TS]

  Right so that's that's the premise of this question that's why ask and. Why did I ask. [TS]

  The women and girls who do listen to a D.P. Well. I can't just ask somebody who doesn't listen to a D.P. [TS]

  Because they don't know what the show is about and the people who do were once women who didn't [TS]

  and basically they have the experience of say. I was once a woman who didn't listen to a G.P. [TS]

  and I listened to it and now it how did you go from a non listener to a listener. [TS]

  And you're listening to it now what do you think we're doing. [TS]

  That might be keeping women away from it or making it seem like the show is not welcoming to them. [TS]

  And is not something they might be interested in and so on and so for or I did listen. And now I don't and here's why. [TS]

  Right because this was done on Twitter like I mean you would assume this. [TS]

  Basically I don't have any way to communicate with the women who don't follow me on Twitter [TS]

  and don't listen to the show but ever so I did what I could write [TS]

  but I specifically was addressing them because I wasn't particularly interested in hearing all the things that men. [TS]

  thought we could do to get more women to listen to a D.P. Even though they may be entirely right. [TS]

  I feel like I have the male perspective we three of us collectively have the Mel perspective of well here I was looking [TS]

  for some. You know different but. [TS]

  So that that is a very long winded set up for for this question you guys want to add a things that to the I didn't [TS]

  consult with your view on this question is that on my Twitter account not a D.P. [TS]

  Of Twitter account I just threw the question out there I don't know how you guys felt about her bits thing that you're [TS]

  thinking about or whether you agree this is a good thing to ask or have anything to add to my premises here. [TS]

  I don't think I have anything to add other than that I believe marker [TS]

  when I both pretty much immediately retreated it and I think one of us retreated from the show account. [TS]

  Just as quickly. So I'm pretty sure I speak for Marco in saying that we are completely behind this line of thought and. [TS]

  And I'm very curious to hear what it is we can do about about the. The women that listener don't listen I should say. [TS]

  And we did definitely had some interesting feedback which I suspect we're about to go into yet. [TS]

  So before we talk about all the different you know how we feel about the message go through a lot of responses [TS]

  and us go through so them categorically frequent suggestions this is not really authored by frequency [TS]

  but I guess I probably wrote them down in the order they started coming and have women guests on the show. [TS]

  Have women hosts on the show. [TS]

  Do a host swap with other woman tech podcasts were you know someone from a woman from another tech pockets of here one [TS]

  of us goes over there. [TS]

  Talk about women in tech topics which are kind of doing now and we have kind of done in the past. [TS]

  Read feedback from identifiable female listeners on the episodes. [TS]

  Stay away from male focused ads that are alienating ask women to try the show. [TS]

  This is it I'm interesting suggestion that I would not of would not have guessed came someone said. [TS]

  You're not going to get women to listen to the show unless you ask women to listen to the show which sounds stupid [TS]

  but is totally true and you know. [TS]

  Like you have to ask for it you have to say hey are you with an interest in technology we have a PA guess you might [TS]

  like actually address them specifically. [TS]

  Lots of mentions of like word of mouth as in like how they came to know the show like I heard from a friend who heard [TS]

  from a friend. Talk about women who are in technology. Talk about things they're doing. [TS]

  You know companies applications. Whatever than. [TS]

  You know Conference talks whatever the things that women are actually doing in tech talk about them the same way we [TS]

  talk about everything else write their blog link to them on Twitter blog memory tweet them follow them [TS]

  and Twitter all the sub sponsor. [TS]

  Things that are folks I'm like app camp for girls which I think they take an ass out of reach we didn't post about many [TS]

  times but other similar types of things that are trying to get more women into technology. See what else we have here. [TS]

  One of the civic these a feedback was about how she thought that our show. [TS]

  From the outside looks like it's just a bunch of dudes talking about tech which I'm going to say that pretty much as [TS]

  but anyway I should mention her words not mine. [TS]

  You just like another but do talk about tax [TS]

  but it's really much more I think they mean the part where we talk about Marco swatting raccoons in his backyard [TS]

  but the idea is that you know the optics from the outside of the show looks like it's a boring show by tech [TS]

  but we do kind of cover. Slightly broader topics maybe. I don't know that you know that. [TS]

  Getting that image out there getting that message out there could make the show. More appealing. [TS]

  And I think that's it for the categories of if I was you remember any other particular large categories that you saw. [TS]

  Going by. I think you got I mean I think the. The biggest one by far is female host slash guest. [TS]

  And then I think the second biggest was probably the advertiser thing. Yeah. Policy gesture and. [TS]

  Another reason I didn't respond to them on Twitter was because like. This is this is a trap. [TS]

  You know it has many names like male answer syndrome. But there are many different names like. [TS]

  It's not an invitation to debate all these thing. Like if you ask a question like this in Twitter. [TS]

  Your instinct and minds think that many instincts of many people on Twitter not just men [TS]

  but everybody who's got yours is to is to answer them to say. I think you should do X. [TS]

  and Then to answer by saying well we can't do X. Because of this or. We don't want to do X. or We shouldn't do X. [TS]

  or I disagree that X. Would help. Like. And that believe me that instinct is strong. [TS]

  It is very strong because even though I invited the question. [TS]

  Every one of these responses is like well I have a reason why you know. You know you get defensive right. [TS]

  And so I thought that instinct. I think pretty successfully. And did NOT about everything. [TS]

  You know because basically what it comes down to I think every single one of these responses is right for the person [TS]

  who answered. Right. No one person who answered represents all women. [TS]

  But they represent themselves and they give a perspective that we don't have. [TS]

  So I tried to take them as what they were now. Realistically speaking. [TS]

  We're not going to do all these things and in particular I don't want to focus on the idea of having women host [TS]

  or having women guess. Host is the is the easiest one. [TS]

  I think that her all the people who said we should have women holistic do it make it would get more of them interest on [TS]

  our hundred percent right. But a certain point. [TS]

  You're not getting more people to listen to your show you're making a new show. That is more appealing to women. [TS]

  And I just totally believe that show would be more appealing to women. [TS]

  But that doesn't mean I want to change the show that I'm currently on. [TS]

  I think the women audience is under-served I think shows like rocket. [TS]

  Like there should be fifty more of those because this is an undershirt audience right there are as many what the [TS]

  million shows of the bunch of guys talking about tech. But we are one of those shows. [TS]

  I like the three of us on the show I think this is the show. [TS]

  I recognize that we are sacrificing some audience by doing that so the people who made the suggestion are not wrong [TS]

  but speaking for myself. I don't want to change the host's lineup of the show. [TS]

  Yeah I mean that I am totally with you on that I mean. [TS]

  It is a great suggestion that is a big problem that we have three guys here but we have never had guest hosts. [TS]

  We don't have like a regular format is the three of us talking. [TS]

  It is like it is not a guest show we usually had times like my where my wife Tiffany popped in during the after show to [TS]

  talk about games and people married to us do not count as as either. [TS]

  But that's you know and that's even at home like in the after show and it's like. It's like a fun. [TS]

  Occasional thing it's not like a regular feature the show that the show is not regularly having different people in [TS]

  here. If it were and like. Like I know John Gruber for the talk show got criticized initially. [TS]

  I don't know maybe a year ago when people started becoming a lot more aware of this issue. [TS]

  Because the talk show is that format show it does have guests every week and. [TS]

  Since then I think he took that to heart and. If you look at the list of hosts. Since you know since about a year ago. [TS]

  There's a lot more women on that list. And it's not even yet. [TS]

  But you can see the progression is going in the right direction. [TS]

  I think it does make sense for shows that have rotating hosts [TS]

  or rotating guests to to really obey that really pay attention to their gender breakdown and their. [TS]

  You know breakdown and all sorts of diversity categories honestly but. For our show I think we can safely say you know. [TS]

  We can we can take with you know. [TS]

  We appreciate that that feedback [TS]

  but our show is always just the three of us it isn't like we're having different men every week. [TS]

  We don't have anybody else in the show. [TS]

  And that's two things about that I think that feedback is kind of disheartening because it shows how underserved this [TS]

  market is that they're as they're asking the way they feel like they can get a show that appeals to them better than [TS]

  asking for changes in and existing shows or. It's just like. It's like all the female gamers out there begging for. [TS]

  You know female. Avatars and protagonists in games they just want to see themselves represented. [TS]

  And they did not enough out there it's an under-served market like. [TS]

  And so they have to take the things they do like that are currently not catering to the needs I could you change a [TS]

  thing you're doing to cater to my needs because I'm so massively under-served that I can't go elsewhere for something [TS]

  better than this I feel like there should be more podcasts. With three ladies talking about tech. [TS]

  But unfortunate there aren't and it's. And as I said. This feedback is correct. [TS]

  They are right that this would make our show more appealing but I just feel like it would be a different show. [TS]

  And we're not doing that show but more people should wear and that's also you know like like. [TS]

  You know we don't want to be condescending here and say Will. Women would listen. [TS]

  Only if there's another woman on the show that's not true. Now if we did but we did get the feedback a lot like some. [TS]

  Some people also said I like the show it is you don't need to add any women like. [TS]

  None of these single women represent all of them and they're just wasting their own opinions [TS]

  but that's why I asked you if you want to hear other people's opinion that we did get a lot of people who said the show [TS]

  be more appealing if there's a woman guess. We got fewer people who said I like the lamp exactly way it is. [TS]

  There are other things that you can do to make it more appealing but I agree the people who ask for that are correct. [TS]

  I just feel like it's not a thing we're going to do which is disappointing for us and disappointing for them [TS]

  but that's that's how the Allen comes out and the second thing on this is you talk about like you mention different. [TS]

  Diversity in different aspects that's another question that a try to get in my blog post was very difficult to explain [TS]

  why you constraining woman. Why not. You know people of color or. [TS]

  You know different sexual orientations or geographies or language or any other thing like that. [TS]

  I think we're terrible in all those categories in terms of in terms of how would our break down are [TS]

  and turns under market but here's the thing. Women are in a minority. Marry the planet. So again. [TS]

  Like get deal with the biggest problem pursed our massive gender disparity. [TS]

  Our massive under-representation that we feel it is just based on the data that we have is not for a minority group [TS]

  it's for half the planet. Right so. [TS]

  Address the biggest problem first I thought this is our biggest problem I feel like all the problems are also there. [TS]

  But this is the. This is the biggest bang for your buck this is the worst thing going on here. [TS]

  I think all those things we should be. [TS]

  Definitely aware of what are we doing to eliminate although there are groups that are that are minorities that are [TS]

  marginalized that we should be trying not to do anything that excludes them. Android users. Yeah. [TS]

  And it without That's not a. That's not sort of a category that choice. Anyway. [TS]

  So I think that is worth addressing that is a real thing but just like it. [TS]

  The fact the very fact that all those things come up in the same conversation is women it's like women are not a [TS]

  minority. I struggle with I think there more than half the planet by like a tiny little bit. But anyway. [TS]

  There are minority in tech and that's the problem. We're sort of trying to address or. So what do we do about sponsors. [TS]

  Because one of the pieces of feedback that I saw most often. Other then you should have a. [TS]

  You have a woman host or that women guess. The next bit of feedback that I think was the next most popular was well. [TS]

  You should really try to stay away from advertisers that are clearly just for men. And I don't mean the hair coloring. [TS]

  I mean. Designed for man. I have used. Not proud of it. Don't use it anymore. But I did use it. [TS]

  That's big of you Mark I'm very proud of you not recommended me [TS]

  and work we're getting deep into accidental analog right now. My curly soon be self-centered us but it's right. [TS]

  But yeah we did get a lot of feedback of well you should really have sponsors that are that are more is unisex Unisex [TS]

  is either genders that right I always get it back when I would say gender neutral. [TS]

  Thank you that's much better way phrasing it. [TS]

  Gender neutral advertisers and we were the three of us were talking about this very briefly the i Message. [TS]

  Before the show and. [TS]

  In our recollection at the time [TS]

  and maybe there's others who were not thinking of the only sponsor that I think we've run released recently that is [TS]

  clearly not general. Gender neutral is Harry's which is shaving stuff. [TS]

  And in actuality that could very well be used for for women for the parts of their bodies that they shave but. [TS]

  But certainly the ad read if nothing else is more aimed at men and. [TS]

  Maybe it's as simple as just trying to be more inclusive on the ad reads which is another thing that the three of us [TS]

  have talked about recently. So I'm not sure what the right answers on that. [TS]

  And I think Mark are you especially had some thoughts on this if you want to kind of take the mike. Yeah I mean. So. [TS]

  So I think this is a valid point. You know the idea that. You know again like it's not like women will run away. [TS]

  If we do. Read for products that are aimed at men. [TS]

  But certainly contributes to an overall feeling of maybe this isn't maybe unwelcome this. Or like not fitting in or. [TS]

  It isn't meant for you like. [TS]

  I've heard all those things from people who said of this kind of feedback and I get that I understand that. [TS]

  The reality is we have very few sponsors that are dinner specific and so it wouldn't be a huge deal. [TS]

  To stop having them. And I mean the list. [TS]

  The only list of recurrence [TS]

  but the only recurring sponsor that we've had that I can think of off the my head are Harry's and need. [TS]

  You know need even now has for most like they have other businesses that are not just for men. [TS]

  So really it's Harry's like that's really talking about here. And as you said. [TS]

  Harry's like I did some research to see like you know having a problem is us with Harry's. [TS]

  And yet there's no question it's aimed at men. But you know they sell razors that are like male styled and. [TS]

  You know definitely aimed at men but women have used them and have blogged about using them [TS]

  and you know they work on women there's you know there's nothing about a razor that makes it just for a man [TS]

  and women can use them too so you know there's a there's marketing choices or stylistic choices there's you know. [TS]

  Language choices anyway. But if it came down to. You know us telling Harry is. You know look. [TS]

  We you know we look to America's new but we want to keep everything gender neutral now so you know call us back [TS]

  when you have. You know a women's option or something or when you. When it's no longer so. Males have AK. [TS]

  I'm fine with that. I think that would be a good idea. [TS]

  This is an easy one to solve this does not require changing the show. This requires changing. [TS]

  Like to sponsors to basically say. You know sorry we're going to have this new policy now. [TS]

  You know we have to work with you in the future. You know that we can work this out. [TS]

  So I think that's an easy easy low hanging fruit to change that. I don't care at all. [TS]

  I don't think the language of the sponsor reads is itself a major part of the problem. [TS]

  I've actually edited the reads a couple weeks ago we did a spot for Jack Threads which was very male focused [TS]

  and I had very heavily edited the read and to remove. You know things that were like. Obviously you know. [TS]

  Men in a style that I thought was not appropriate for like a gender neutral show. So I edited the script. [TS]

  No big deal i do i had every script I get to do be more in our style or to be easier to read [TS]

  or to say things that I think should be said and delete things I think shouldn't be said. [TS]

  You know editing scripts in that deal. But I think the script is not the problem. [TS]

  The product of the problem what's being advertised. Is the problem here if you can make this argument. [TS]

  So it doesn't matter how I say it it matters. You know. [TS]

  And I were advertising products that are clearly aimed at just men and. [TS]

  You know what does that suggest to the women in our audience who are listening. And so yeah. [TS]

  My argument is my idea was why don't we just drop these handful of sponsors the do this you know. It would. [TS]

  It's never fun to drop a sponsor like. I feel bad it could hurt relationships. [TS]

  You know it's inconvenient for them if they are counting on you but I'd be perfectly fine to do this now [TS]

  when this came up on. [TS]

  I am I disagreed because I don't think the problem is necessarily that the line of products that are am just a man [TS]

  because there are these are men shaving supplies. [TS]

  First of all the reality is the most are audience as men so this is you know advertisers want to have ads targeted at [TS]

  the people who think of listening [TS]

  but I thought the problem was basically having to do with the reeds because it's OK to have a product. [TS]

  Focused on just I.O.'s users just just men just women. [TS]

  Just people in a particular state just people who live a lot of our stuff is just people in the US. [TS]

  For example because a lot of people dogs companies as we hear. Don't ship overseas right so we hear about that too. [TS]

  Right. Just for people in the U.S. or Whatever. I think the. [TS]

  The problem actually is with how the reads can be done because. Just because you have a product for men. [TS]

  Doesn't mean the ad read has to be targeted at MIT and that sounds great like [TS]

  when you mean of course as with argument to cry from an example some gave me on Twitter as. [TS]

  What if you were selling some sort of you know whether it be shaving or anything else product. [TS]

  It was just for women a leg shaving razor with the handles are just for shaving woman's legs or something like what. [TS]

  Whatever it is or like some kind of product that only or mostly women use if we did that [TS]

  and read the inclination would be the fairly shameful. [TS]

  Inclination but I imagine would be to pitch it as in like oh it's like buy this for your wife or girlfriend [TS]

  or whatever as an as and you know assuming that our audience is mostly men which again we rethink it is [TS]

  and just saying well you know of course only men listen to this do Deck pocket so let me. [TS]

  If I ever do if it's a woman's product we have to do the ad read differently. [TS]

  But it's meant product we say hey you will like this you as an M L thing. [TS]

  And I think when you do and you know you said you would just add the language. [TS]

  When you do an ad read for a woman's product. You should pitch it. As if the person listening. [TS]

  Might be a man or woman and not saying the woman is going to use themselves. By this for the man in your life. [TS]

  Maybe try it yourself [TS]

  but like if it's totally focused man's product like again you assume all our listeners are hundred percent women how [TS]

  would the ad read look. [TS]

  Be different if it would be different than probably the ad read is as making people feel excluded because we're all [TS]

  used to living in a world where there are certain products and just that men are just it went right. [TS]

  We always see ads on television or in the newspapers or whatever billboards. [TS]

  That are specifically and men or at women for whatever reason if you want to say that these products are culturally. [TS]

  The for men are mostly for women. [TS]

  None of us feel like we get offended by that unless we listen there are watch the show [TS]

  and every single ad is like you should buy this for yourself and it's a woman focused product I'm like [TS]

  but I'm not a woman why do you keep saying you it's not me like you never you never pitched this product to me as if [TS]

  you could buy this is a gift for a woman that you know. [TS]

  It's always you buy this for yourself it makes you feel like geez maybe I should be watching this program because all [TS]

  the dads for women stuff. Are telling. [TS]

  Are telling me that I should buy it for myself don't they know I'm not a woman seems like maybe this is not the place [TS]

  for me. So I think the existence of gender specific products is perfectly fine. [TS]

  Especially of the not an overwhelming majority of like of all of our ads are men only products that's a big problem [TS]

  but of one out of all of our sponsors all recurring sponsors men only. [TS]

  I don't see it as a big deal but I think the admin the reeds themselves. [TS]

  Have to be done in a way that's not like hey you should buy the stuff yourself because that's exclusive. [TS]

  That's excluding people that the existence of the ad is not excluding people. [TS]

  I think the way the edit pitches excluding people. And I think the fact that our audience mostly men. [TS]

  Is a symptom like that. [TS]

  You know that there is the root problem here in the symptom is the fact that advertisers who advertise things for only [TS]

  men want to advertise on our program. If we got our audience to fifty fifty. [TS]

  Maybe Harry would be less interesting in advertising with us the Mets fine. [TS]

  But like they're interested now because they think. [TS]

  I think most of our listeners the men are probably right and that's the root problem of trying to solve. [TS]

  I'm not entirely sure getting rid of that ad would change the gender disparity I think you just need to be presented [TS]

  and. My idea for the past Harry Reid was. [TS]

  We should read just like I said due to Harry Reid as if one hundred percent of our listeners are women [TS]

  and see if anyone notices. Like see people get confusing go. I didn't understand that had it wasn't for men's products. [TS]

  Why are you out. Were tossing it to women it was all would assume hundred percent of the people isn't a short women. [TS]

  Because you know talk pod cast. Listeners are mostly women we didn't we did. [TS]

  Didn't get to that before we did the the I read [TS]

  and read before I use communicated that idea to Mark about thought that would be a fun thing to do. [TS]

  But that just shows like The fact is that doesn't suck that's not how it's done shows that like everyone to serve [TS]

  tacitly agreeing that like yeah well we just assume most listeners are women. Right. [TS]

  And that's the problem that's the problem [TS]

  or trying to solve so I'm I'm not entirely opposed to just in Harry's But I think that's like. [TS]

  It can be done in a way that is more inclusive than it is than it is done now. I agree with most of what you said. [TS]

  The problem is most of the examples of the negative things that you used. [TS]

  Are things that we don't actually have in our at things that we don't say things that aren't in our ads aren't in our [TS]

  scripts and I like aren't in our remarks usually even like yeah. [TS]

  Most of them are pretty neutral but we never make the explicit pitch to. [TS]

  You should buy this for some man that you know for your father for your friend who's a guy. [TS]

  For your husband for your boyfriend we never make that pitch. It's never you know. [TS]

  Because that would that would be explicitly saying I'm addressing now you. [TS]

  Woman listening to this program we never do that it's always. [TS]

  You should buy it for yourself it's great it's much better than what you currently been buying it's all about YOU YOU [TS]

  YOU YOU are a man. Never the other side and so that I think that bounces off. [TS]

  Even though you was like generic and not gender specific. When it's a male focused product it makes you know. [TS]

  We never go the other way. In any degree. I could see that. But I mean to me I think the solution there is not to. [TS]

  Not to have to address that issue either direction. Like why. Why do we need to advertise products on our show No. [TS]

  That are only useful to men or only aimed at men. [TS]

  But those products exist like Would you reject a product that was focused only on women. [TS]

  Like I mean it's a saint there's just some products like that [TS]

  and again who says it's only like you're always doing get pantyhose who says. [TS]

  Men can't wear pantyhose they totally can but culturally speaking. [TS]

  Percentage wise blah blah blah blah blah for the most part. Cetera et cetera lots of caviar. [TS]

  Sons of oil that's a whole separate culture issue but fact is there are products that are more often bought by woman [TS]

  and more often but they're not. [TS]

  Men only not women only there ought to be excluding from the definitions but we all know I mean about these. [TS]

  You know if Harry Potter is on their Web site is men's shaving products. [TS]

  That's what they're going for I don't think it's crazy to make a product focus specifically on the needs of either men [TS]

  or women and whatever particular things they want to do. I think you should have both of those things. [TS]

  Shame we never we will never be able to get women. [TS]

  Products for women things because we can't get more when listening to the pros. To the shows that we're trying to do. [TS]

  But I think if we ever got to distribution. [TS]

  I would gladly take a quote unquote of women only advertiser any day of the week. [TS]

  And just as much as I think it would take a men only one. [TS]

  If it takes ditching the men only sponsors to get more women to listen I'd also be willing to do that but I feel like. [TS]

  And some people also reply to this the like. [TS]

  There's no need to ditch the hairy spots just be more inclusive in the reeds. Right. [TS]

  But you said the problem is when you go to this site it's all right but it's the reason. [TS]

  The product is for men but women buy products that are for men as gifts. All the time. Well but see. [TS]

  See I just I pulled up the Harry's read a discussion as I pulled of the you know. [TS]

  My script that everyone we do these ads and. There's nothing in it that. [TS]

  That presupposes that you are a man directly I mean. [TS]

  The only thing is the absence of something like oh get this for a man in your life. [TS]

  Like I don't say anything like that but I also. Don't say Get this for a woman in your life like. It's like I don't. [TS]

  The Had does not specify gender it does I agree it has the built in assumption that this ad I'm reading. [TS]

  Saying you know. You should go get this you. [TS]

  You can do that but you've been annoyed by buying razors the normal way you should get this because it's better. [TS]

  Women have also been annoyed at buying raises normal way like it's like that like looking at this like I don't. [TS]

  This what I'm saying I don't think the script that I that I actually use and practice for these kind of ads. [TS]

  I don't think the script is really the problem I think the. What is being advertised. [TS]

  If this is going to be a problem at all if. If you can say we want to avoid. [TS]

  You know advertisers that might suggest a male focus or a male bias or male only stuff. [TS]

  I think the issue is the advertisers themselves. Because you know we can edit the scripts to be neutral. [TS]

  Or if they aren't already. But you know if. If a bunch of women go to the Harrys site. And it says these are for men. [TS]

  Well that's why if you said by the sort of man your life you'd be explicit about the fact that it says a men's product [TS]

  or if that's how they frame it and women use it too but this. [TS]

  This is their companies making product of their And specifically of men. [TS]

  And it might be a good gift idea because if you know someone who has problems you know is complaining about their [TS]

  shaving situation you can get this for them. Like and trying to be inclusive with the read. [TS]

  Is more than just leaving it neutral because neutral plus men's product equals not neutral. [TS]

  But if you're going to try to do go in the other direction make sure that people are included in like. [TS]

  And the same thing with that you know. To balance things out if we can get a woman only sponsor. [TS]

  That would be great [TS]

  but I don't know if we can do that with the audience breakdown that we all feel like we have the I would say that the [TS]

  script editing is necessary but not sufficient to solve the problem. Well I mean you know like. [TS]

  That's that's possible as well I just I just feel like I would rather add sponsors than remote. [TS]

  You know to me because Harris's like with the reason we keep doing here is read is because it's a good product [TS]

  and you know people know this but we are fairly picky about the sponsors that we take for the show. [TS]

  If we don't think it's actually a decent product we don't take it. But on the other hand. [TS]

  Of all the sponsors that we have we have I don't know maybe ten like regular recurring sponsors most of the time. [TS]

  I think only one or two are gender specific like work tech show we're not a health [TS]

  and beauty show we're not a fashion show we're a tech show and tech. [TS]

  As much as it often isn't tech should be gender neutral. [TS]

  And so most of our sponsors like Squarespace and hover and fractionally these are all totally ignoring gender. [TS]

  You know it's like. [TS]

  We don't it doesn't matter what gender you are to use glide like it like I think there are enough people out there. [TS]

  It's a tech show. Like most responses or tech sponsors. [TS]

  If you can say it's kind of a fluke that we have sponsors like Harry isn't already Parker. [TS]

  Because we're not a show about shaving our glasses you know like we have a certain kind of audience [TS]

  but it is a lot more focused. To run a tech ad on our show. [TS]

  Than to run an ad for anything outside of tech because you at least know that we have this many people who care a lot [TS]

  about tech. Right so like. [TS]

  I agree with you that in practice mean in theory of the gender of ad should matter [TS]

  and it can be attended to be neutralized or at least not you know. [TS]

  Not always on one side of it [TS]

  but we're a tech show we only have a couple of advertisers who are who are gender specific. [TS]

  We don't necessarily need to maintain that status quo. What I'm curious to hear. [TS]

  And I can't pass judgment on this because I'm not a woman and so I don't really know. But what I'm curious to hear is. [TS]

  Is it better to just quietly not have male focused sponsors. [TS]

  Or is it better like John was saying to specifically call out. [TS]

  This is for the women that are listening get this for the man in your life or even get this for yourself. I don't. [TS]

  I feel like maybe it would almost be more inclusive. [TS]

  To go to bend over backwards [TS]

  and say that this ad which is sensibly is for men were making it for women because we want to be inclusive. [TS]

  But I don't know I'm not a woman I don't know how that feels like a lot of a lot of the things that you do for her. [TS]

  Groups that are marginalized. As you know. To to try. You're trying to make them feel welcome. [TS]

  Right and neutral things like Squarespace. Don't push them away. But also don't make them feel particularly welcome. [TS]

  The best case would be as focused on women. Because that would really make them through this is a product for you. [TS]

  We are advertising it at you. This is a thing for you. We're talking to you now. Right. That would be best. [TS]

  Second best I feel like is. If there is an ad that may be in aiding to try to be inclusive in that read to say. [TS]

  Even though it sounds like this is not for you this show is still for you [TS]

  and in fact I'm talking to you as if as if you as if the hundred percent of the audience is women. [TS]

  And I'm going to pitch this product for men to you specifically you would listen there as a woman is one of the same [TS]

  thing as using you know she pronouns and all of the. [TS]

  The you're wise you know why that she had all the time like what you're trying to balance the scales of the massive [TS]

  inequity in the tech world. Throw a little pronouns in one direction. [TS]

  Is no reason to complain and it's more inclusive because people would say. You know. [TS]

  Oh I'm used to every single vandal being a he water or not [TS]

  and I'm guilty as anyone of constantly using hey you know what. [TS]

  People take note that something used she and this example is not interesting. You know. Like I would. [TS]

  I wish I was on all the time they are trying you know. [TS]

  It is such a tiny drop in the bucket against all the other things that have stacked against them. [TS]

  The least the very literally the very least you can do is try to make things like that. More equitable. [TS]

  Dropping that entirely. But also kind of make it more equitable but then how do you how do you call out to them. [TS]

  I don't know. Right that's that's what I'm saying that's a really good summary of what I was trying to say. [TS]

  Speaking of advertisers it's been awhile since we should frog move along with the advertising part by talking about ads. [TS]

  Yeah. [TS]

  And we have more to say in this topic [TS]

  but I think we can in the ad part of it with a gender neutral ad for our friends at hover. [TS]

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  Just you know give me a name. With reasonable settings please. [TS]

  This is what Hubbard specializes in they don't try to up sell you with all sorts of crazy stuff. [TS]

  So for example that the protect me from spammers they know who is privacy. That just comes with hover names like they. [TS]

  They just give you that because they know it why would you not want that. So that's just included. Right. [TS]

  So instead of charging you for anything separately there should have been a they just they just included. [TS]

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  Finishing the general discussion both never finished but continuing the senator's question for the show. [TS]

  I think if we're talking about the content of the show. So I asked if my wife. [TS]

  Earlier this evening as I said we're going to talking about this and I asked her like you know what does she think. [TS]

  What can we do to address this problem you know from her point of view. And what I've heard from a lot of people and. [TS]

  You know tips told me this [TS]

  and we heard from arguably even people in the chat have said this in the last half hour we've been talking with us. [TS]

  What I keep hearing is. [TS]

  We have a lot of listeners who have wives or girlfriends [TS]

  or who are themselves women who listen for the for like the more human general parts of the show. [TS]

  But don't don't like or don't listen for the in-depth programming stuff. And this. [TS]

  This is certainly an issue we're talking about because it's not that there are no women programmers. [TS]

  But as we know the ratio of. You know that the gender breakdown and in engineering jobs is really nowhere near even. [TS]

  So this is. This is a bigger problem. [TS]

  I will note that we often get the exact same feedback from men who are not programmers who listen to the show but. [TS]

  But I would imagine it's. It's proportionally. We keep hearing this. [TS]

  As one of the reasons why women don't like our show or don't listen to all of our show or listeners are consistently. [TS]

  You guessed I mean to some degree we can say like well you know just like we said earlier the. [TS]

  The format of the show is the three of us like we don't have guest hosts. We could look at this. [TS]

  This topic and we can say well. Do we just say like well we are programming show sometimes. [TS]

  Or it is something that we should change [TS]

  or some them both that will just always be this way what do you think this is explicitly outside the bounds of my goals [TS]

  because my. [TS]

  My set up was of all the people in the world who I think would enjoy our show how many of them are not listening to it. [TS]

  And our show means our show as it exists. We could appeal to a much broader base if we talked about politics or sports. [TS]

  But that's not the show. Like anything. [TS]

  You know there's broad topics and is now our topic [TS]

  and we only talk about the details of a specific kind of model train our audience would be way smaller right. [TS]

  We're doing what we're talking about what we are passionate about it has a necessarily a narrow audience. [TS]

  We can always broaden things up and get a larger audience and broaden things up. [TS]

  And again I just pick politics a sport because those are pretty broad topic. [TS]

  Way more people care about politics and sports than care about any of the stuff we talk about. [TS]

  But this is the show we want to do. [TS]

  I will never give up talking about the minutiae of programming languages than operating systems and an A.P.I. [TS]

  Is a lot of stuff because that's what I want to talk about on the show. [TS]

  My focus is entirely on their women out there who are interested in the minutiae of programming languages [TS]

  and file systems and crap like that who are listening to the show because of stuff we're doing. [TS]

  To signal to the end of the show is not for them and that is entirely where my focus is. [TS]

  I think we do talk about broader topics occasionally lot of that might be as some of the feedback was pointing out that. [TS]

  It's not clear from the outside. [TS]

  That we occasionally talk about touchy feely things that occasionally gets a broader top maybe it's not clear from the [TS]

  outside that occasionally we talk about programming language for half an hour and you know. [TS]

  Maybe that would bring in more people as well. But in general. [TS]

  I want the show to be about tech stuff and we're all interest that we all have our own little tech tech pet peeves [TS]

  and hangouts and things we want to go superintend up with and that's never going to change because that's the show. [TS]

  The only thing I would take away from this is that like that we should do a somehow do a better job of representing to [TS]

  the outside world. The range of topics that we do talk about because there is a fairly weird. [TS]

  Not to say a big range but it's definitely you know. [TS]

  There it's not as narrow as it seems on the outside I think in [TS]

  or in some respects it's more narrow in particular areas but we do. [TS]

  Sort of go to all these other islands and the different ends of the spectrum. Yeah. I completely agree. I think we. [TS]

  The three of us really love doing this show and. It's not that we are opposed to making tweaks. [TS]

  But I think we're opposed to making tremendous changes and. [TS]

  And I think that having the show be an accident having the show yes we have shown notes that we kind of work off of [TS]

  every week. But we just kind of throws things against the wall and sometimes they stick and sometimes they don't. [TS]

  And keeping that format is critical in much the same way is keeping the three of us is critical and. [TS]

  I'm totally good with tweaking here and there [TS]

  but to dramatically change the content of the show would be changing the show entirely. [TS]

  And I think the best part of that specific we had about that is related to our recent revelation that people didn't [TS]

  know the after show existed because we would always put the stuff on the after show to try to maintain the balance. [TS]

  Some semblance of like uniformity of like well there's mostly the tech stuff in the beginning [TS]

  and if we have something it's less tech related because the show is called axonal Tech podcast. [TS]

  We should save the most non techie stuff. Or the time we just want to talk about like cars or whatever. [TS]

  For the after show. But having learned that a lot of people did know the at the show even existed. [TS]

  All of the feel like we've gotten and what we're doing now is say. [TS]

  Don't leave stuff in the after show because have to leave alone even though it's there [TS]

  and because it makes it seem like it's not as important. [TS]

  Move it to the main show which we are doing today [TS]

  and I think in the future will be less maybe will still keep the car stuff there. But you know. [TS]

  Nobody likes that except the biggest car is how I feel like the cars have your narrow appeal [TS]

  but then you've got to be a techno and be super into cars the your percentages start going down right. [TS]

  But for things that have broader appeal than tech like little like women in tech I think hell is a broader topic than [TS]

  age of us plus. That should be in the main show I think that is definitely a change we're going to do. [TS]

  Because we were talking about that anyway. [TS]

  But I have least was under the impression like this is the separation the show is like just dividing things up on your [TS]

  plate right. Not like. [TS]

  That's the get over there where things go and we don't really want to talk about them and you know like. [TS]

  It wasn't a lesser part the after show was not lesser in any way but it's lesser people don't even know it exists. [TS]

  We definitely need to move that its main course versus desert really [TS]

  and you know we Last week we had this on the topic list. We had of the things in front of it because like of news. [TS]

  It happened. [TS]

  And we could have done it the after show [TS]

  and we chose not to because we wanted to give it the attention of being a main topic. [TS]

  That's why it was up first this week as the first main topic. Yep absolutely. One more thing in the chat room. [TS]

  Tim and Austin. [TS]

  Says he's talking to someone who is both in there and saying three men discussing what women like [TS]

  and don't like Matter fact is very patronizing women are individuals which I tried to make that point in the beginning [TS]

  that maybe missed that part of the show. [TS]

  Yes all the feedback we're getting is from a bunch of different people none of them represents all women. [TS]

  They just are themselves which is why you need a lot of feedback from a lot of different people there. [TS]

  None of the none of these women speak for all women. [TS]

  We are trying to address woman as a group and so I have to discuss them as a group. [TS]

  But it's you just have to it we're talking about them collectively [TS]

  but every person is different every woman is different. [TS]

  So I said the individual who backs a moment or someone is that they're individuals they're not a group [TS]

  but we are trying to address them as a group so you know. [TS]

  It's people not want to hear three men talking about we want [TS]

  but what we're trying to do is address them as a group as a how can we make it's our show is not doing fewer things [TS]

  that make you feel like the show is not for you and you are the collective noun. [TS]

  Not any particular individual because if we wanted to address an individual we could simply ask that individual. [TS]

  What do you specifically want and address them and get that one thing we are trying to address. Woman as a group. [TS]

  We're not going to do something that everybody likes and everybody hates we're just trying to do the best we can. [TS]

  You know I mean that's why we last a lot of people not just one person and this issue is so big and so important. [TS]

  And so on everyone's mind right now especially like this has come up so much this year. [TS]

  And you know with the whole game or gate. Horribleness and. This is affecting the entire industry. [TS]

  We would be irresponsible of us not I would be weird if we didn't address this it would be weird if we didn't have [TS]

  conversations like. [TS]

  What can we do to improve this with our show like this is a full topic this is a relevant topic that we have to cover [TS]

  and it actually is tech related because the tech industry of interesting with this massive problem is not just like you [TS]

  know. [TS]

  It's not doctors [TS]

  and lawyers have much more have representation of women than Is that going to like is a big problem in tech [TS]

  and in gaming in these things like So it is totally attack topic. [TS]

  Not that we need to be affected because we can talk about cars another healthy on [TS]

  but this is this is actually in fact opic. [TS]

  And we're going to keep discussing it this is not for me the last time you hear about this topic on our show [TS]

  and work on because like. You know. During the show. When I'm talking. [TS]

  After the show when I listen to myself to hear all the things I did wrong. I know. [TS]

  Like you know I I did it seventeen times in the show. Deferring to people as he by default. Right. [TS]

  Using using male standard pronouns [TS]

  and discussions from Melbourne Specht of like happens all the time it is very different not that I'm saying is an [TS]

  excuse but it's difficult to change we are working on it like. We're trying to like. [TS]

  We just need to get way better at it and constantly hearing feedback from women to tell us when we're doing it wrong. [TS]

  Like they will tell us things we don't notice ourselves like all the things that I notice [TS]

  or things that people have told me [TS]

  and that's why I noticed the right so that feedback is essential in that engagement of like asking women to tell us you [TS]

  know. Again. [TS]

  They're going to have conflicting opinions they don't speak with one voice [TS]

  but you don't ask you're never going to know like like. What was the one that I highlighted from the. [TS]

  The the ideas about asking women to listen to the show why they're not a current to me I don't know. But like. [TS]

  If you don't expose who say women who love tech stuff we have attack pike as you might want to listen to it. [TS]

  They're not going to come and you know to me like. [TS]

  That's called being inviting literally you're literally inviting them specifically them not just like people like out [TS]

  there people if you're interested in tech you know. [TS]

  People used to say to me that they you know they like the show whatever. And I would say that's great. [TS]

  Tell your nerdy friends about the show. [TS]

  Like [TS]

  and I would suppose I would say Tell your nerdy friends because under Tell your friends because your friends probably [TS]

  aren't into. You know the minutia that we talk about a Tech podcast tell your nerdy friends right. [TS]

  At this point I would modify that to do a specific cause tell your dirty friends including your nerdy girl friends [TS]

  and like why do you have to call not specifically because I think most people just hear nerd and picture a guy. [TS]

  Which is wrong but like that's that's the stereotype right so you have to. [TS]

  You have to actually make an actual assertive effort to combat the overwhelming. [TS]

  Bias of the entire tech world towards analogous if you do nothing. It will just default to male everywhere. [TS]

  And that's what we're trying to avoid here and it's. It's difficult to do. We all do it. [TS]

  I know I'm trying not to do it. You know. Every call plea for getting better. A little bit maybe. [TS]

  But yeah the discussions like this will hopefully produce some more feedback. [TS]

  And will get more ideas and do better things going forward. [TS]

  You know I'm just going to agree more and I mean all of us are trying all three of us are trying [TS]

  and I'm sure we're all three of us have said some really dumb crap just no help [TS]

  but it's from a good place for what it's worth and we're trying to get better so if you are a woman [TS]

  or girl because I want to be this is a just that's what it's cumbersome [TS]

  but like I don't have you know want to feedback I've gotten many many times that female is not a great way to refer it [TS]

  which I've done three times in the Charedi understand the like it's so clinical and just. [TS]

  But women and girls as it were talking about because I don't want to exclude kids from kids. [TS]

  I would love to show when I was a kid. Kids should listen to the show. Girl kids boy kids everybody and women and men. [TS]

  Show for everybody really. Well my dear nerd. If you sell to identify. [TS]

  If you self identify as a is someone who is female. Then please if you have feedback. Then let us know. And if your do. [TS]

  Then I'm sure you're going to give us or your feedback anyway because that's exactly what happened [TS]

  when John asked specifically for women and girls to get. Yeah. [TS]

  I don't mind I don't want to call that I knew it was going to happen like. [TS]

  I admit being had being the cynical person that I am I part of the reason I got excitement about explicitly tweeting. [TS]

  To women and girls like their tweet was to them. The new a million guys would answer. [TS]

  I just said it's my answer center. I have it. One hundred percent. [TS]

  I have a sufferer of this I'm not just a client on the president OK we all are. [TS]

  And sure enough like you can go through the thread try to count up did more men than women. [TS]

  I mean Grant I probably have more male followers than women I looked at my collar [TS]

  or ratio with one of the tools to try to figure out of your man around just massively on balance of wrong doing [TS]

  terrible this. [TS]

  I've been trying to adjust my fall campaign to like the people I fall I've been on following men [TS]

  and following women to try to get even close like. I'm not even close to parity but anyway. [TS]

  Tons of men answered this question. And I'm not going to like shame them for answering. [TS]

  Because I understand why they did it. [TS]

  And you know their input is just as you know useful as anyone else's I just have to understand their input is coming [TS]

  from Melbourne specked if you want to think about a perspective which is what I was asking for look you know. [TS]

  There they could be saying the exact same things that the women are saying is also a good idea. [TS]

  Right but you know people jump on the bearing of like. I didn't ask you men to like. Bottom line on Twitter. [TS]

  If I address the question to only people who have a Playstation four thousand X. [TS]

  Box owners would answer me that has nothing to do with gender people just want to say what they want to say. [TS]

  Like you know. It really doesn't you know. But you know. Male answer syndrome is a thing. [TS]

  And I don't want to shame any of the men who answered. [TS]

  I swear I didn't reply to any of them [TS]

  and telling them I didn't ask you I was asking like all feedback welcome you can control who answers your questions. [TS]

  You know. Just my very person who gets pressure but this is a W Z. Jamie was names that when ski over the old. [TS]

  Yet he always has like tech questions on his blog and. [TS]

  He's fairly famous and so when he asked a question like many of us he gets lots of different answers. [TS]

  But he's so angry at people not answering the question he asked he always says. [TS]

  I want to figure out how to get extra work with why. [TS]

  Don't tell me how I can do it by Kampala my own thing don't tell me how I can write a program to do a don't tell me if [TS]

  I use a different operating system I wouldn't have this problem don't tell me this program [TS]

  or do I want to use this program with this thing in this. [TS]

  And then a million people have terminated ignore me they just tell them that they are not really use Gentoo in Kampala [TS]

  from source implants like it's impossible I don't know why fight that battle I don't fight that battle all feedback is [TS]

  welcome. [TS]

  I will gladly find the a feedback that I want [TS]

  and read it out read the other ones too I can file it away to my own mind please never feel like you shouldn't respond [TS]

  anything even if I explicitly address the question to be asked for owners. If you are an X. [TS]

  Box owner and you want to give me an answer. Just make it clear you're an X. [TS]

  Box on her and I'll put it in the right been an O.B. Find our final sponsor this week. Which is also gender neutral. [TS]

  Is fracture. Fracture Prince your photos in vivid color. Directly on Glasgow to fracture Me dot com. [TS]

  And if you are a new customer you can get fifteen percent off your first order. With coupon code A.T.P. Fifteen. [TS]

  So fracture is great I have tons of fracture prints hang up all over my office all over our house. [TS]

  We've sent them as gifts. Now multiple times people love them. You see these things. Trust me. [TS]

  People like a compliment to time people who see this in my office. People love these things they make great gifts. [TS]

  You know any. You know holidays of course Mother's Day is coming up crap that generous with. Kind of. Well anyway. [TS]

  Everyone has a mother. At some point. Anyway. Hopefully you're overthinking your Mother's Day just go with it. [TS]

  Just go with it Mother's Day is fine you did not invent Mother's Day. Right so. Holidays exist. [TS]

  Reason to give people give to exist. [TS]

  And if you want to get a picture printed fractures the way to do it because here's here's what's great about these [TS]

  things so as I said it's photos printed on glass so the way things are structured. It's a thin piece of glass. [TS]

  The ink is printed right on the back side of it and shining through the front so that. [TS]

  That way you know the is not going to scratch off. [TS]

  If anything happens to the front glass is not going to scratch off or anything to deserve durable things. [TS]

  But also because the glass is really thin. It looks like the picture is printed on the top. [TS]

  So you use nice like reflective glossy photo printer looks like it is just the picture on the front glass [TS]

  but it's nice and shiny and durable. And also because it's because the glass layer so thin. They're light. [TS]

  So you can have like a nice big nice big print that mean I want to have but my desk I have a. [TS]

  I have a pair of them of my computer that I think are like eleven by seventeen. [TS]

  And they don't weigh that much like a framed picture. [TS]

  That same size of way more because the frame with way more fracture prints they have this thing glass layer on the [TS]

  behind it is like some foam that then like a some foam board. [TS]

  And so you can hang as you can put a little picture hangnail in there would ever. [TS]

  So the whole thing is actually pretty lightweight It looks like it's a solid piece of glass. But it's thin glass. [TS]

  Adhere to foam board. So it really gives the best of everything from a practical point of view like. [TS]

  I'm always afraid I'm hanging a big pictures have a couple of large free imprints Ameri my office two I'm always afraid [TS]

  are going to fall off. [TS]

  They're going to shatter whatever they're going to get broken during shipping maybe fracture I've never had a problem. [TS]

  They've never fallen off. [TS]

  They've never broken things and they never you know tore the nail out of the wall [TS]

  or anything you don't need a giant nail to hand in because they don't weigh that much. [TS]

  They're just they're very practical they have desk mounts all sir desk stands and. [TS]

  Again you I wouldn't feel bad like if I have one of the my desk. And I actually knocked it over. [TS]

  Probably wouldn't break even felt from my desk onto the floor about it wouldn't break. Because they're just there. [TS]

  They're durable they're well built and they're just looking credible others said. [TS]

  Tons of compliments on these things and everybody sees no house with what that is [TS]

  and people who are familiar with the people who heard the show who don't come to my house the first time. [TS]

  They always look like or those fractures they look really nice. Like as actually happened numerous times now. So yeah. [TS]

  I always hear about them they're fantastic. They're also really affordable. [TS]

  So their prices start just fifteen bucks for the five by five square print. [TS]

  That's the kind that I kind of famously now I MADE my. My row of app. Icons hang about my window and using this. [TS]

  This Five By Five square print. Fifteen bucks each. [TS]

  It's a no brainer they're fantastic if you want to print your app icon to kind of show like here's the thing I made [TS]

  or you know you can do. [TS]

  Pod cast album art if you're pod cast or any kind of square are veils ever tanker size of course. [TS]

  You know it's just nice to have that these like trophies of things you made. And then also of course just photos. [TS]

  There's lots of people take photos of the beast of the thought of it earlier. [TS]

  Whether you've edited your photos or not they make great fracture prints. So really check them out there. [TS]

  They are great there it is the thinnest lightest. And most elegant way to display your favorite photos. [TS]

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  and other prestigious fantastic So once again. Go to fracture Me dot com. Get fifteen percent off your first order. [TS]

  With coupon code. A.T.P. Fifteen. Thanks a lot to fracture for sponsoring the show. All right. [TS]

  So you've been busy Marco and. You've been working on overcast. Specifically for the Apple Watch and. [TS]

  From what we've gathered to John and I. John and me whatever. What. [TS]

  What who have gathered what you want to make a third to gas or now. Now I'll just quit while I'm behind. So. [TS]

  So what have you been up to lately and what is what is caused you to make all these changes. So I got the Apple Watch. [TS]

  I got I got the one that was shipped on the first day they were available so arrogant twenty fourth. [TS]

  And I started using my. I had written the at before then. And I started using the app on the watch. [TS]

  And within like a day. I already looked at it what I've made I'm like OK this works but not very good. [TS]

  And it could be better. [TS]

  And there's a number of things about this I'm not going to go into a whole of like specific detail of things that [TS]

  worked and didn't because that's all that's better off as a blog post really [TS]

  and therefore I wrote a blog post with tons of images. [TS]

  And it's always bad to describe all that image stuff on a podcast so also that from [TS]

  when I published a blog post which will be [TS]

  when the new versions approved I basically restructured the entire interface. [TS]

  The original interface of it mimicked the three level navigation hierarchy of the i Phone app so you have like you know. [TS]

  Level is list of playlist and pod cast. [TS]

  Then you pick one of those an apostle unit the second level which is a list of episodes in the thing you picked. [TS]

  And you pick an episode and push you to a third level which is the Now Playing screen. [TS]

  And you can go back to the other levels and changing whatever. So I replicated that structure on to the watch. [TS]

  So I had you know launch the app an easy you know. List of things list of episodes and now playing. [TS]

  In reality anyone who's had a watch has has probably seen. [TS]

  Weird lags and delays with loading apps loading watch what apps watch kid is really slow at times and. [TS]

  Like in general one things are loaded it's fine but the process of of loading a nap. [TS]

  It's doing all sorts of crazy optimizations and power savings and everything. And so like. [TS]

  Whatever it's doing to conserve power. It's it has occasional bugs still and. [TS]

  I don't know if it's because going over Bluetooth or it's because this is just you know. Watch O.-S. [TS]

  One point zero And these are one point zero bugs. Probably some combination of both. If I can take a guess. But anyway. [TS]

  Watch kit apps are fragile to some degree. Like. And they're inconsistent. The more you ask them to do. [TS]

  The more you exacerbate this problem. [TS]

  I had a number of issues with my three level navigation structure being given to the watch. One of the issues was that. [TS]

  What I really wanted most of the time was the Now Playing a screen to show up first because it's usually what you need [TS]

  to interact with like changing things on the Now Playing screen. Seeing what's playing seeing how much time is left. [TS]

  Seeking back and forth then it may be recommending it is something I frequently do. [TS]

  Often times like I'll be out walking my dog or something and I love what I'm listening to [TS]

  and I want to commend it so I want to quickly go to watch it recommend him back [TS]

  but you know about what I was doing stuff like that that none of that is going back to the list of pod cast [TS]

  and list of play lists like that's something I hardly ever do. On the Go. [TS]

  And if I'm going to that I can take my phone out. I had built this app to mimic the structure of the I O. S. App. [TS]

  In practice. That was adding a lot of complexity to lots of things. Suffice to say. I restructured the whole app. [TS]

  And now it is it is centered on rather than being a three level navigation hierarchy where the final level [TS]

  and I'm playing screen now is basically a single screen interface where the the. [TS]

  The only the root level is the Now Playing screen and any any other functions are brought up by slide up model. Sheets. [TS]

  Like modal dialogs. [TS]

  That structure I this is not coming across well in a pod cast [TS]

  but that structure ends up working a lot better because it's simple because it's asking watch get to load a lot less on [TS]

  start up like rather than loading you through the of these medications hierarchy. [TS]

  It is now loading one screen in my correct. Characterizing this change. [TS]

  As you choosing to do the things the watch can do. Quickly or responsibly. Over the things the watch those slowly. [TS]

  Yes so this. This is why this is the part I want to actually talk about on the show. [TS]

  That does translate well to a podcast which is like my initial inclination [TS]

  and I think what a lot of people would have initially tried to do [TS]

  and did try to do with watch Kid My initial inclination was well here's this device that is a. [TS]

  That is another app platform for i OS. So let's pored over the I O. S. [TS]

  Interface to make the watch a version of the app. It's assuming that the watch version of the app. [TS]

  Should be like the i Phone version of the app. Not only is that wrong. But I think. [TS]

  I think there's a deeper thing that's even more wrong about it. I think you can. [TS]

  You can look at what happened with these platforms growing up so far. You know first Apple developers made mac apps. [TS]

  And then I.O.'s came along and so a lot of the mac developers. Some point. Have tried in the last seven years. [TS]

  To to make an i O. S. Version of their mac app to see or and i OS counterparts their mac app. [TS]

  Usually these have not gone that well you know there are some that work. [TS]

  There are a lot that don't there's a lot of apps that can be perfectly great useful in demand apps on a mac. [TS]

  That just like. Just the realities of I O. S. Devices or the or I O. S. The platform the O.-S. Itself. [TS]

  Age doesn't work well on I O. S. Like. [TS]

  You know maybe maybe things that need precise mouse control keyboard shortcuts big screens. [TS]

  That kind of stuff like I'm not going to edit the pod cast on an i Pad even though I can if there are tools to do that. [TS]

  but I can do it so much better on a mac than I could ever do. On an i Pad that I'm going to learn a Mac. [TS]

  You know there are certain things like that where like something might be technically possible to migrate over to a new [TS]

  platform. But not useful or compelling. Compared to just you know having a be on on one. [TS]

  And same thing applies there in the opposite direction like a lot of I.O.'s things are not very compelling. [TS]

  or useful on the Mac. They're there compelling you follow us and you can say the same thing between. [TS]

  I Phones and i Pads. Many things work better on one device and the other. It's cetera so from that point of view alone. [TS]

  You can look at the watch and the assumption that the watch. Should have apps. Corresponding to your i Phone app. [TS]

  You know whatever whatever app you make or whatever after thinking of using. Chances are most. I Phone apps. [TS]

  Don't need watch components. And probably shouldn't have watched components like. [TS]

  For most i Phone apps a watch component is not that compelling. And not that useful. [TS]

  In practice especially considering what the watch can do today like there's limitations. [TS]

  You know just things watch it can do this quite a lot of things watch it can do it's a very simple system. [TS]

  So there's no limitations of what Watch it can and can't do. Plus just you know it's speed and bugs. [TS]

  Is also just like inherent qualities of the watch as as a platform or as a physical device like. [TS]

  I Phones have gotten bigger over time [TS]

  but they're still relatively handheld touchscreen devices like they're still like the same general size class of what [TS]

  they've always been there are things that can fit in your pocket. [TS]

  That you can pick up and probably use with one hand and then put back in your pocket when you're done. [TS]

  I Pads are bigger things they don't fit in most pockets. They can fit in most bags but not most pockets. [TS]

  And you use them generally with two hands. And you know the and that the sidelines. Laptops are different laptops. [TS]

  You know. Even the super small ones like that like the MacBook one. [TS]

  Laptops are different like you generally don't put them in any pockets of any size garment. [TS]

  So there's these different classes and as a technology progresses. [TS]

  Most of those major lines between those different size classes don't change. You know. Laptops. [TS]

  Even the super small ones that the night book one. [TS]

  Are generally not going to be brought in somebodies hand back to dinner. [TS]

  If they don't have two laptops are generally not going to be in your back pocket. You know like it's. This is. [TS]

  This is just how it like how things work so a laptop is not going to be always with you [TS]

  and i Pad is not going to be always with you. [TS]

  You know you might have it in in your house but it might not be in the same room that you're in. [TS]

  And no matter how much that knowledge of progress is no matter how you know. [TS]

  Thin and light these things get how good the batteries get whatever else. [TS]

  Those broad strokes those broad lines tend not to shift. [TS]

  Blue whatever like inherent limitations of a form factor exist. Tend to stay there. [TS]

  I Pads and i Phones are inherently limited by not having physical keyboards and precise mice. [TS]

  Like that limits the kind of apps that work well on them the kind of use of the work on them. [TS]

  And even if you get a keyboard for your i Pad [TS]

  or whatever it's not the same it doesn't like those lines always exist right. So looking at the watch now. [TS]

  The watch is always going. To be a relatively small screen. A very small battery. [TS]

  Current The I fix it tear down the watch is approximately a tenth the size of the i Phone six battery. [TS]

  So there's literally an order of magnitude less better capacity. [TS]

  Also you know much like a screen I probably I don't know maybe a tenth of the screen area or. [TS]

  Probably not that bad but it's you know. Close maybe a fifth of the screen area. It's. It's a much smaller thing. [TS]

  It's also on. It's also strapped to your arm and strapped to your wrist. [TS]

  And so it is necessarily as we discussed last episode a device that. One of your hands can't operate. [TS]

  And so you know you have to operate with your other hand or your nose or John's tongue [TS]

  or whatever the case may be like. So these are these inherent limitations of this device net. [TS]

  No matter how good the hardware inside the watch gets. As technology will go over time no to how good that gets. [TS]

  It's still always going to be a small screen. Strapped to one of your wrists. That will have probably you know. [TS]

  An order of magnitude less battery life. That whatever we can put into the phone in your pocket. [TS]

  That's what So there's assumption that many people have made that the watch is eventually going to replace the Smart [TS]

  Phone Over time the watch will get its own cell radios and G.P.S. and That that part might happen. Then that over time. [TS]

  The watch will become the dominant computing platform that everything is just moving smaller and smaller [TS]

  and first it was computers and it was your phones. Now it's going to be your watch or eventually to be your watch. [TS]

  And because of all these limitations of these the. [TS]

  You know as I was talking to these physical limitations physical characteristics. [TS]

  I don't think that's ever going to happen. You just said ever didn't you. [TS]

  I did I know that if it's time scale I know I know [TS]

  but it will have you heard this from like I haven't I haven't heard all the watch coverage people saying the watch is [TS]

  going to replace the phone where do you like the most coverage talking like near term who's who's on that bandwagon. [TS]

  I've heard a lot of tech comment. Commenter said especially before the watch. [TS]

  Out a lot of people said that that's where they were going. [TS]

  What's more interesting is that I have heard that now for almost everybody in real life was talking about the watch [TS]

  like people who are not like regular people think like oh this is the next new thing. [TS]

  Literally every single person who has asked me about the watch [TS]

  and we start talking about it that this isn't a huge group. [TS]

  But they have all said that every every normal person out there in the world thinks that. [TS]

  That's where this is going so. [TS]

  I do think this is this is a valid thing to discuss and essentially pertains to after helpers. So you know as I said. [TS]

  No matter how good the technology gets the phone. That's in your pocket. Is always going to have you know. [TS]

  Ten times the battery life. Five to ten times the screen space. [TS]

  The ability to be used one handed in either of your hands. At any time. Way faster processor. [TS]

  Bigger more aggressive power hungry radios. Things like that you know less aggressive power saving measures. [TS]

  There's always going to be that difference. Just because of the physical differences between those two roles. [TS]

  As long as humans. Still only have two hands and their wrists. Aren't a foot wide. That's going to keep being the case. [TS]

  So you do it again. [TS]

  Do you do you foresee a future in which risk get a foot Why didn't people grow third and know like and so the. [TS]

  I don't think the some of these people are talking about. I think if people are coming up to you and saying that like. [TS]

  They think they're asking you is that what your bus your phone they're talking about what you're talking about a long [TS]

  term the reason like that the future is visionary whatever people say that long term. [TS]

  That wearables [TS]

  and so on are the future is because what they're in Visioning is important helper methods being radically different. [TS]

  Right so they're visioning. [TS]

  Doesn't matter how big screen is it will be projected on to read [TS]

  and I could be whatever size you want to whatever discern you had you want. [TS]

  Right that's what you basically have to do because like you said you're never going to do the stuff you do on a phone. [TS]

  On a screen that's false it's not going to happen. [TS]

  If you're touching it with your fingers and looking at it with your eyeballs but if the thing is. [TS]

  Acted on to your retinas and a virtual nineteen inch screen in front of you that comes and goes [TS]

  when you blink your eyes are wayward like input method have to check. [TS]

  Input not one of the changed radically from what they are now. If you envision a world. [TS]

  They only contains capacitive touch screens of various sizes then everything you're saying is one hundred percent true. [TS]

  And that is our future for the next like many decades probably right. [TS]

  But long long term I think the reason you hear all this wearable hype most of the wearable have I read is that like. [TS]

  As the cost and size of compute goes down to zero. Other things become possible. When everything. [TS]

  Your entire body is still the tiny microprocessors that are fifteen times more powerful than the eight [TS]

  and it's all powered by style actress city from your stuff on your feet on the carpet and you know like like that's. [TS]

  You need new input in up methods though. And you know something that goes directly into your eyeballs or. [TS]

  You know via our goggles are the first giant clunky versions that are things that are in your ears [TS]

  and waving your hands around in the air like a next style hold. [TS]

  Like that's I think what people are talking about the tech the tech people who talk about future world where balls of [TS]

  the future. [TS]

  But the people are coming up to you our religion only I seems like asking you Are you not going to use your phone now [TS]

  that you have a postage stamp size capacitor touch screen and your wrist I hope you're telling them No that is exactly. [TS]

  People are making that assumption. [TS]

  Like [TS]

  and that's going to keep being a thing as smart watches grow in popularity over the next few years like that's going to [TS]

  keep definitely being a thing. [TS]

  The reason I asked before about like you're making choices for overcast based on what the phone can do quickly is that [TS]

  it's like Put another way. [TS]

  The watch that things just as fast as the phone like multi-level hierarchy they work just like that [TS]

  and you know like are you making the choice because it's the best you I conceptually. [TS]

  Are you are you saying Conceptually we better this labor practically speaking is too damn slow with Watch get so I have [TS]

  to choose a U.I. [TS]

  Design that I wouldn't otherwise choose just because performances you know so much more important than like navigation [TS]

  hierarchy or whatever like all you know. The performance like I'm into the whole reason the i Phone was awesome like. [TS]

  You know what's different thing i Phone although that's phones like the performance so massively better it's like a [TS]

  step jump it in an experience right. So you're definitely making the right choice but like. [TS]

  I'm wondering you know any kind of a shame that if you're forced to make that choice by crappy performance [TS]

  and logic it and B. [TS]

  I'm wondering if the choices will change as they watch evolves because although obviously always be able to get [TS]

  something more powerful than something the size of a phone. [TS]

  The watch will get faster and phone get faster [TS]

  and they will soon you know march forward down the line of getting faster and so on eventuality the watch will be. [TS]

  Hopefully like it you know native apps or watch cable be better or like five versions of the watch from now. [TS]

  I'm hoping performance will be way way better and then. You know what will happen along with like them. [TS]

  You know given given that watch the five years from now watch where you were visit you or your you why [TS]

  and say now the performance isn't a factor. I might how it might I do this you why differently and I. [TS]

  I think for the most part you can tell me because you were I was over really early on when i was i Phone No US right. [TS]

  Did you ever have to make that choice on i OS like that you're making you why choices based on what the phone the [TS]

  actual phone did quit maybe with table views [TS]

  when they were scrolling really slow I don't know like did you ever have to do that. [TS]

  Not really usually it was the opposite direction usually the things I would. I would think in my head before I did it. [TS]

  That probably won't be fast enough and I would try and I'm like oh this phone hardware is not as bad as I thought. [TS]

  Like the way out the crazy way I would then say but I do pagination and detection of where pages and it was crazy. [TS]

  And it worked. And I'm shocked that it worked. Or even with overcast as I've said before like with overcast. [TS]

  When I first was prototyping the audio engine with smart speed in voice boost. [TS]

  And the visual was there and they realize they all those things I thought would be too slow on the real hardware [TS]

  and then I write tried them. And they all were like Oh yeah. Two percent C.P.U. [TS]

  Usage like wow OK the aisle to do it then it was like yet another reason I'm wrong so they all their own the already [TS]

  listed that the watch is different because I think it's the first Apple platform in a while except for maybe O S ten [TS]

  which also but Sloan a beginning. That like. That is the opposite it's like. [TS]

  Actually it's slower than you think it is actually watched it has more limitations and you thought it might [TS]

  and not just like limitations in capability but like yeah you can do is watch good but have you seen what it's like [TS]

  and how long it takes a lot of those things right. So it's just a different mindset it's kind of going back to. [TS]

  I don't know like old world mindset where you just assume the computer is really slow and you had to be like. [TS]

  I got a fair what's a computer can do fast. And then make my after that because especially when it comes to you eyes. [TS]

  That's so much more important than conceptual purity or as some wire frame that you have that you fall in love with. [TS]

  Well. But the fact is. What we're talking we're talking but like you know C.P.U. Performance really. [TS]

  But that's not the problem on the watch. See a mean we don't know. Our apps are not running on the watch a C.P.U. [TS]

  At all like we we really can't tell. [TS]

  Right it's a the whole Bluetooth connection [TS]

  or wife I between I were talking to the before like of that is never going to get faster faster faster until the watch [TS]

  gets faster and you get native apps because you know our least anyway. [TS]

  My collective experience with wife I am Bluetooth is there some inherent Lagan out this just never going to go you [TS]

  never get that down to a point where it feels as responsive as something running on a device. Exactly and. [TS]

  But you know. Even that being said like you know. The as of the. The performance for things like tapping buttons like. [TS]

  Yeah you can feel there's lag there. But it's acceptable. Overall it's not great. It's it's acceptable. [TS]

  I haven't used the watch for a grand total of three and a half minutes. So far. [TS]

  One of the first thing that it was like swipe through like the glances or whatever. And you know. [TS]

  Just just doing a swipe test. And it. It didn't feel slow. [TS]

  But it kind of felt like a couple generations ago i Phone like this is not a demanding task is all happening on the [TS]

  phone it's not watch get apps like it's just there you know I'm assuming it's got a view is all in memory I'm just [TS]

  asking it to Open G.L. If I transition things from one to the next and responses wipes. [TS]

  And it felt Will bit like didn't. [TS]

  It didn't feel as snappy certainly not as unhappy as like an i Phone six maybe it felt like one of my all the i Pod [TS]

  Touches or whatever. So even with native apps like. I think we're we're kind of. [TS]

  We've moved back in time to at best Apple's own apps are have moved back in time several generations in the aisles [TS]

  world. Even for simple completely on device completely open G.L. [TS]

  Accelerated core animation transition from one tiny view to a next. [TS]

  Now totally And you know like the rumors I mean I don't think we've had any confirmation on this now that we've had the [TS]

  thing but the rumors are were always that it was roughly eighty five performance which would match. [TS]

  You know your old i Pod Touch. [TS]

  Was that the architecture they thought it was like it's a tiny a five because it's got to be so massively under clocked [TS]

  in there we don't know right but I asked her home just. We had to go point a clock. [TS]

  Yeah I don't know [TS]

  but look I mean the reality is what we've seen the want to do it does certainly appear that computational performance [TS]

  is not limiting factor here. At least not for any watch get up. [TS]

  But that is it isn't even seem to be the limiting factor for Apple's apps that you know that they do all sorts of like [TS]

  animations [TS]

  and stuff that are probably not all pre render images the way the watch gets have to be like that you know they can do [TS]

  stuff that that is clearly you know this is not running a forty six in there.. [TS]

  So you know that is being a mac person John I know I made a reference to an old C.P.U. Anyway I'm with you. [TS]

  I do you know it. [TS]

  You know it was I was watching every movie under the sun to make other reference [TS]

  and I will I will wager that I have written more I faced some of the balls and you can buy. Anyway. [TS]

  Thousands and thousands of lines. Anyway so the point is like technology will get better. [TS]

  Even if the watch hardware right now is too slow to do something that will change in a few years that. [TS]

  That's not going to a problem for a long. [TS]

  My argument is that no matter how good the harbor gets the inherent limitations of like how how you interact with this [TS]

  thing how. You know the. The interface being like the time. The time piece is the home screen. [TS]

  And the honeycomb of app icons of kind of like this. [TS]

  You kind of go there as a last resort to do something and many things are happening through the three glances [TS]

  and watch complications instead of going out to the apps free and everything like this is and. [TS]

  You know and it's still it's. It's a very small screen. That you can only access from one hand. [TS]

  That hand might be busy. There's always going to be limitations of this device. [TS]

  So any way to go in but the reason I brought this up. Not every app. [TS]

  Needs to be on the was not every app should be on the watch. And I would venture to say that overall. [TS]

  While the watch does add a lot of types of apps that are now compelling that weren't before. [TS]

  Like a lot of kinds of apps that I would love to have on the watch. [TS]

  If they had an i Phone version I would have completely ignored them. [TS]

  Before an alligator wouldn't like they wouldn't have been useful enough on an i Phone [TS]

  or it wouldn't of been interesting on an i Phone It would have seemed too simple or whatever. On the watch. [TS]

  I'm interested. Like the watch is definitely creating new opportunities. [TS]

  But I would argue like there's like a continuum of computing devices that and like their use their uses [TS]

  and on one hand you have like full blown. [TS]

  Computer type devices where you can install applications you can run them you can do you know. [TS]

  It's like a general purpose it. It could be your main computer. For some people that is an i Phone or an i Pad. [TS]

  For most people it's going to be a P.C. or A mac actually probably not most anymore but the smartphone is winning. [TS]

  But anyway. For a lot of gigs at least that's going to be a P.C. or Mac. [TS]

  For a lot of people the world going to be as can be a smartphone. [TS]

  And for some of the BE a tablet but I don't think the watchful ever get there. [TS]

  To me like the watch on this continuum you have like those kind of devices which can be general purpose computers [TS]

  and then like on the other end you have like a Bluetooth headset. Which like. Is it has a computing. [TS]

  Processor type thing. In it. But it's not an app platform. It doesn't. It will never be an app platform. [TS]

  It doesn't need to be an apple for. What about my Thunderball cables and run outs on that. [TS]

  I think you might be able to actually. But anyway so as panic. [TS]

  So you have a discontinuing like on one and you have like full blown computers another [TS]

  and you have like things that have computing harbor in them [TS]

  but are really just like dedicated peripheral type things are dedicated. You know specialized things. [TS]

  I would say the watch is. You know closer to the left in the right. I would say. [TS]

  It's the watch is closer to a peripheral to an i Phone accessory. Than to its own independent. Standalone platform. [TS]

  Well that's going a little far it is running I us for cry a lot like on the technical side I think you're right on the [TS]

  technical side. It has a C.P.U. It has a display you could has apps that you can access. [TS]

  But I think the way you actually use a thing once everyone calms down once and I want is worn off. [TS]

  I think the way we're actually going to use this thing is. This is like every mote view on to the computing wife. [TS]

  Of mine that lives on my i Phone. And that like. [TS]

  Not every app is going to need to be on the watch a lot of uses we're now using the watch we're going to go back to the. [TS]

  phones A.O.L. Actually. It was easier to pull my phone out and do X. Y. or Z. Rather than doing those things. [TS]

  You know clunky slow as in the watch and. [TS]

  You know I think the watch is in general even though it does create new opportunities I think it's going to be a much [TS]

  smaller at platform. In practice. Then what people might been hoping for before. Before we had them. [TS]

  And that's not because Apple did a bad job with that. That's because of the realities of what. [TS]

  Watches are and what they have to be. [TS]

  Well I hope that's just a temporary thing though because if I'm thinking of some specific applications that are [TS]

  actually better suited to the watch than the phone.. [TS]

  And we just can't do because the computing is not there and like you know. If you get a watch that has its own G.P.S. [TS]

  That has a much faster C.P.U. and G.P.U. Any kind of like G.P.S. Based hiking are walking around the city type thing. [TS]

  It's the worst to try to walk around a city while holding up a phone in front of you to see where it is. If you had. [TS]

  If you had to the base with you just unlimited computing about a city and onboard G.P.S. On your watch. [TS]

  You could navigate in a city with just a watch you know be an awesome experience better than fishing your phone out a [TS]

  pocket every ten seconds to to find out what Rogers was a turn onto [TS]

  and so I think there is a potential for this computing platform to come into its own and be a full fledged computer [TS]

  but only for applications that are actually better on the watch. [TS]

  Not because not now all of a sudden everyone of your Iowa South computer watches that stupid [TS]

  but for things that are actually better are there on your watch that we just can't do now it is like well it's always [TS]

  tell the phone if you tried to use that way. As a remote display for the Apple Maps application. [TS]

  Going to be slow and clunky and you know. [TS]

  Can you imagine like a watch that responded in basically real time to its orientation and direction. [TS]

  Like it had a map on it and as you raise your arm it would adjust in like three D. [TS]

  To point the hour towards where you're supposed to go like them [TS]

  or how you wave your arm around the arrow constantly pointing to the left turn your supposed to make like. [TS]

  We're not even close to that kind of computing power and and battery to support that [TS]

  but it's conceivable in our lifetime. [TS]

  And that is a way cooler experience to just be able to glance down at your wrist put your arm and any position [TS]

  and have a big green arrow pointing exactly where you're supposed to go on the trail next or whatever. [TS]

  Or you know what blockers will turn on [TS]

  or little indicators to see you know how close the closest Starbucks is a runner Marconi's that up. Oh yeah. Every day. [TS]

  You know like you know I'm I'm not willing to accept the the watch will be relegated to this forever because I think [TS]

  it's just we're just stuck with what we're stuck with now but if they just ramp up the technology. [TS]

  New classes of that was whatever install a new class that occasionally falls right now. [TS]

  Perhaps new classes are not possible like you said it's mostly just for a peripheral view of things that are going on [TS]

  on your phone and you don't to tell time and tell your steps and do all that stuff. [TS]

  But eventually several generations from now on an infinite time scale. [TS]

  Now this is a close timescale you know I mean like. [TS]

  We'll get to this one right it doesn't take much more and obviously taking it out and then it takes you know. [TS]

  Or piracy views involved blog a couple generations. New things will be possible in the watch and G.P.S. [TS]

  Is just the one I thought thought that maybe that's not even true but like people will try everything. [TS]

  Like that's the good thing about it people will try. [TS]

  Maybe we can have games on there and maybe that sucks maybe does like ever people try everything [TS]

  and you know one of those things are going to have the same thing we did with the phone it's like no one knew it was [TS]

  going to be great on the phone until we tried every possible thing quitting fart apps [TS]

  and eventually it settles on of the things that it does well. It's just that you know right now. [TS]

  I mean it kind of happening right now everything. [TS]

  But I'm going to make everything or watch it [TS]

  and you know as a lot of the viewers say there's like thousands of watch good apps [TS]

  and most of them suck because people who are wrong about what would be good in a watch get up. But the watch good days. [TS]

  Hopefully will be gone in a few years and we'll move on to trying. [TS]

  The equivalent of fart apps in the Washington someone had something good will day one of the App Store. [TS]

  I don't John I don't remember the day one of the App Store. [TS]

  They were very similar to what people are saying now which is like yet the vast majority of these things are terrible. [TS]

  A few are good. But the majority are terrible. What was the first app you download and the App Store. [TS]

  I don't know I remember that first day I don't want a bunch of I downloaded Monkey Ball [TS]

  and couple of other think Monkey Ball is probably my top three I think I had lights out. Member that one. [TS]

  Yeah that was that was their only [TS]

  but I remember what I'm getting as the experience I remember like Oh so this is the app store where can we download [TS]

  and like Monkey Ball was like nine bucks [TS]

  or something wasn't it was the I think you know it's the old Dave that stores kids let me tell you Monkey Ball ten [TS]

  bucks it was terrible. [TS]

  Yet the controls came with her well you know I Love Monkey Ball on the games you have awesome game. On the i Phone. [TS]

  Terrible anyway. I downloaded tons of stuff like went for you know. [TS]

  Big names things made by people an album and you write use all of them you're like. I guess try again. [TS]

  Roy you saw everybody with their like beer after beer pouring things [TS]

  and like the lights out was the best game practically because that would have been developed for the App Store [TS]

  and it was a good and. It was a game they knew would work on the phone because all you do is poke the screen which. [TS]

  You know that is actually something that the phone is good at a big. [TS]

  You know sort of board game grid thing where you poke your screen. [TS]

  Good use of the phone that was like the best app that I remember on day one. Our thanks what the response of this week. [TS]

  Glide hover and fracture and we'll see you next week. Now the show is over. [TS]

  They didn't even mean to be good because it was accidental. It was accidental. [TS]

  John didn't tell anyone the mom going to be seen with him. Because it was then going to dance to it was accidental. [TS]

  And you show that they be done and it's trending. [TS]

  He was no says that ski lifts and the team article are limited to free. Let's take the risk you know. I'm looking at. [TS]

  You know I went into my i Phone to the app store to purchase a scroll to the bottom. [TS]

  You actually got to be on that list. Well. The very first one and all instant messenger. Noted that. [TS]

  I know it's probably used for five minutes for side on your i didn't even room. Remember that I had it. [TS]

  Next one lab or inthe light EDITION. I had that to you know. Next one Tap Tap Revenge classic paid version.. [TS]

  I had that one. And then couple of games. Restaurant nutrition. Air sharing. Couple of V.N. C.S.S. [TS]

  Apple Remote in flight control which is what I was really. [TS]

  I thought flight control is the first one I downloaded because when I got my phone. [TS]

  That was to my memory around the time the flight controls brand new and to my memory that was one of the first games. [TS]

  I took up revenge actually was kind of like this too. [TS]

  But one of the first games that just everyone had to have AND ALL MY GOD I LOVE fly control I play the thing for hours. [TS]

  New York Times. Apple Remote App Net News Wire chopper was like topless bar which I loved to prevent scribble light. [TS]

  More cowbell. Yes I don't litter the cowbell app. Nice banner free black and white looks looks like a fellow. [TS]

  Yeah that's right put out a lot. [TS]

  I wondered why add the banner app [TS]

  and I guess it's because it was like one of those only optimistic hard day one that you have the same thing. [TS]

  And I'm I'm guessing it probably was originally just called banner. [TS]

  And then they later added a paid version just got his vapor. [TS]

  Shouldn't I shouldn't those devices cool with on the like less of the scroll the message across your screen. [TS]

  I think that was actually a good idea for a day when up. Yeah. I Pads actually kind of useful as a big cube runner A.P. [TS]

  World nine pair me subway shuffle labyrinth white as we al the labyrinth games on day one peg jump [TS]

  and gal con is my first like. No reckon a known responsible game. Yes Oh yeah. [TS]

  Holy shit garbage basically did some good stuff. Did you have the physical version of labyrinth light. [TS]

  You know the show on the icon for labyrinth. The marble labyrinth is made of wood. Yeah. [TS]

  Yeah I had if I had a few of them. [TS]

  Yeah I love those things we have one through the physical one is much more satisfying than the. Yeah I was game. Yeah. [TS]

  Yeah. Of all these of all these things the thing I spent the most time playing was black and white the. [TS]

  The Othello clone. Now until calc on camera. Definitely fly control for me. [TS]

  I probably haven't lived there and day one though. [TS]

  No no no but it was my day one if you will because it was by the time I got an i Phone [TS]

  and i think i played flight control more than any other game. On my phone. Any of my phones. [TS]

  After I love flight control although I did play a lot of RAM champ. That was much later. Yeah was it was launched. [TS]

  When are you going to get my phone to do my apps are mine I'm curious you know if I can you can find items. Can you. [TS]

  Yeah go to the after page go to purchases. Area. [TS]

  So if you scroll all if you sort by most recent for all that the bottom of that giant page it's there. [TS]

  Newswire chopper tap tap scribble I penned or radio. Facebook I tell her Facebook. [TS]

  Super Monkey Ball is a New York Times. News Wire Apple Remote. [TS]

  Google am I should make fun of the name thing I've got to ANY the bap and then to I thought clones tapped Africa. [TS]

  Trizone banner free voice yeah. We hold out hope the same damn apps and they want labyrinth light. [TS]

  My twelfth EPS was flight controllers previously discussed. Fifteenth that tumbler. [TS]

  Another classic from the old days space that be still out there very cool game I'm surprised. [TS]

  I mean maybe it's not a good not good fit for the phone but I really love the game. [TS]

  And I wish there were more games like that if not for the phone [TS]

  and for the pie for the two biggest pieces of install just for me Flight Control icon. And the tweety icon. [TS]

  I Miss Tweedie. But i Tunes even though I have my things that always show scroll bar i Tunes as I'm ignoring that. [TS]

  To give you I'm going to give you a lot of scroll bars. [TS]

  This it does it's own you why does no respect for the system settings. [TS]