00:00:00 ◼ ► from relay this is upgrade episode number 553 for march the 3rd 2025 i of course am your host jason snell this episode is brought to you by squarespace fitbot google gemini and delete me of course as you know we are now firmly in mike hurley paternity leave territory that's right but we
00:00:29 ◼ ► still gotta do an episode and i'm on vacation so it is my great pleasure to introduce my special guest for this episode of upgrade mike hurley it's what a pleasure to be here i've always loved this show jason and i'm just so happy to be a part of the call now that mike's out to bring me in isn't it weird being on a podcast that you listen to so long it's particularly weird uh to be the guest in this environment it's very strange to me uh this is an episode out
00:00:59 ◼ ► time we recorded this episode before my paternity leave um actually on my birthday in case people happy birthday it's january in the past but yes it's march in the future why are we doing this jason why is this happening can you explain i uh i have a vacation scheduled and it would normally and it's and it's wednesday to wednesday so it's really impossible to record upgrade in a not an out of time episode and normally i would have said mike you take that one but you can't take it either and so i
00:01:29 ◼ ► had the thought well if we had the thought well if we're gonna do an episode out of time why don't we do you and i do an episode out of time and then just drop it in so a little bonus mic for everybody you love it if there's the people that are missing me you know although i've really only been gone like two weeks
00:01:45 ◼ ► yeah maybe and again i don't know i don't get used to it there are no extra episodes out of time for you to uh you to get so it's just it's an episode out of time it's nice but because of that we're doing something fun today jason aren't we what are we doing
00:02:00 ◼ ► uh we are doing something called the most important apple products or uh if you would like to call it the
00:02:11 ◼ ► the apple monument sure that's another concept we're still working on it the idea here is we are going to
00:02:18 ◼ ► discuss the creation of i would say a an entirely fictional monument to apple products that have i would say i don't i don't even want to describe
00:02:30 ◼ ► it would have an impact are important in some way some way that that like like the baseball hall of fame which has rules but nobody seems to follow the rules about who gets in everybody's got their own definition for what a hall of famer is and this is what we're going for here and the key here is this is not something where we're inducting uh five things a year or something like that this is an exercise in which we have to propose specific apple products and at the end
00:03:00 ◼ ► only five will be allowed to appear on the monument because there is limited space on the statue or in the painting or whatever this fictional thing is
00:03:12 ◼ ► there's only so much marble that the sculptor can can use you know that exactly right the tree is only that large
00:03:19 ◼ ► anyway that so we're gonna pick five we're gonna we're gonna make something that is kind of like a draft but it's really just our kind of
00:03:26 ◼ ► nominations for what might be on the uh the monument and then we will make a final list of items it's a
00:03:35 ◼ ► the sort of thing you might do for a podcast where you're unaware of news events for the previous five
00:03:41 ◼ ► weeks this has been a uh a topic that i've had in my notes for a long time and was originally thinking it would
00:03:48 ◼ ► be a summer of fun uh but i i i thought when when we were this is happening i was like oh i've been sitting on
00:03:54 ◼ ► this idea so i'm happy that we can do it and the thing that jason mentioned that i like is we haven't
00:04:00 ◼ ► discussed the criteria so the i am expecting that both of us will be bringing products with our own
00:04:08 ◼ ► criteria set which i like uh and that that's like so the first portion of the show is just us talking
00:04:13 ◼ ► about the products um here's a question for you so you know i'm assuming we're probably going to be
00:04:21 ◼ ► bringing products from categories do we want to just go like higgledy-piggledy here with this
00:04:28 ◼ ► all right i want this episode to be as higgledy-piggledy as possible okay and so for me i think what i
00:04:36 ◼ ► want to do is i want to based on our document i'm going to have the first uh pick here yes this list
00:04:42 ◼ ► yes okay it's it's funny it's not a draft it's not a draft in the sense that this is a collaborative
00:04:51 ◼ ► process we're going to nominate we may agree or disagree but it doesn't matter at the end we will
00:04:55 ◼ ► then need to agree on five uh nominated by anybody it doesn't really matter and i'm sure we'll agree on
00:05:01 ◼ ► a bunch of things and then we'll disagree on a bunch of things but it's a good it's a good exercise uh
00:05:06 ◼ ► and and with that mike maybe it's time for you to pick one so for me i think probably my my basic
00:05:16 ◼ ► rubric here is some level of notoriety right is what i'm going for well i mean if we're putting this on
00:05:27 ◼ ► a statue it really ought to have or in a painting or in a museum it really ought to have some notoriety
00:05:32 ◼ ► yeah and i feel like there are the obvious items and i'm sure we will get to those but i have some
00:05:39 ◼ ► that i want to make sure or at least they're at least spoken about right so my first uh important
00:05:48 ◼ ► apple product is the apple watch edition the original one the gold one that cost between 10 to 17
00:05:59 ◼ ► 000 000 because i think that this very specific product is actually quite important because i mean
00:06:08 ◼ ► the original apple watch important and will be important to history but i think in the i believe
00:06:15 ◼ ► as we look back in time this this very specific product is going to be seen as an important moment
00:06:24 ◼ ► in apple's history because if you were to believe that book that i like and you don't like what is
00:06:30 ◼ ► it called uh after steve is that the book that's probably the yeah sure this was essentially this
00:06:38 ◼ ► product was like them trying to placate johnny like give him kind of what he wanted um and and i think
00:06:44 ◼ ► that that was maybe a point which some people would say like was a bad time for apple like when they
00:06:50 ◼ ► were just giving johnny what he wanted uh but i see it as a really if you kind of take a bigger view
00:06:56 ◼ ► at that this was kind of when johnny was done like he didn't want to do this anymore and so they were
00:07:01 ◼ ► trying to make him feel better and i think that johnny johnny leaving apple has made an impact and will
00:07:08 ◼ ► continue to make an impact it may be wholly good it may be wholly bad i i think we're too close to it
00:07:15 ◼ ► still to know but i think that this very specific product was something that should never have
00:07:22 ◼ ► happened for multiple reasons and i think was actually very embarrassing for apple in the in the
00:07:28 ◼ ► long run and so i wanted to at least put it up here as like i just want it mentioned and in the
00:07:33 ◼ ► conversation it's not going to make it to the monument but i wanted to speak about it yeah i i again i
00:07:41 ◼ ► there's no way first off we don't have enough gold to to put this on the monument uh isn't that an
00:07:47 ◼ ► apple watch no it's made of gold oh well um it is yeah it it simultaneously um it it was to placate
00:07:56 ◼ ► johnny right i think we could all say there were a lot and i don't know how many of these are actually
00:08:00 ◼ ► true but i suspect many of them are it feels like there were a lot of decisions made by apple in the
00:08:08 ◼ ► era after steve died that were to placate johnny because and i know we talked about this on upgrade
00:08:21 ◼ ► after this perception that the guy responsible for all of apple's success is gone yeah one of the ways
00:08:30 ◼ ► you do that is you bring in the people who are close to him like johnny ive and you hold them close
00:08:42 ◼ ► what a black eye that would do to the perception of apple yeah but ironically the reverse i think is
00:08:49 ◼ ► true which is in order to keep him high profile and keep him engaged and keep him around they gave him
00:08:56 ◼ ► more responsibility and gave him more weight in decision making and as a result in the 2010s you see
00:09:03 ◼ ► apple make a lot of decisions that are kind of not practical and don't make the products better
00:09:09 ◼ ► and and there are lots of examples of those but this is an interesting example where yeah the the like
00:09:15 ◼ ► the vision pro i would argue the apple watch was miscalculated at the beginning because of
00:09:22 ◼ ► uh some influences by designers like johnny ive and then it took years to kind of unravel it from that
00:09:31 ◼ ► and make it more of what it should have been from the beginning and i feel like vision pro is going
00:09:36 ◼ ► down the same path honestly yeah different well i guess this is the thing we can never really truly
00:09:42 ◼ ► know right like johnny's influence on the vision pro we don't know we don't know but it certainly feels
00:09:49 ◼ ► like vision pro is is scarred a little bit by by some of those design those high design decisions
00:09:55 ◼ ► about a product like oh we must have a screen on the outside and we must have it be metallic and all
00:10:01 ◼ ► these things it's like did you really need that but it could be the same thing there because some
00:10:05 ◼ ► reporting says that johnny's johnny guided some of that just some of those early decisions right and so
00:10:11 ◼ ► like yeah i think like the guy was was steve drubbs protégé and you know it said that it needed the
00:10:18 ◼ ► pair of them to truly do good work but like you know i i think i i am and no to johnny i have
00:10:24 ◼ ► apologist uh but yeah i think that this was obviously a strange time in his career like the apple watch
00:10:30 ◼ ► especially um because again like if the reporting is to be believed they did apple was doing the best they
00:10:37 ◼ ► could with a product that could not handle it i mean we saw it though right like apple watch the
00:10:41 ◼ ► apple watch series zero as it became retconned in yes that was a that was a bad product like that was
00:10:48 ◼ ► it had a lot of promise so it was interesting like i would actually i would actually say now
00:10:59 ◼ ► oh yeah because the vision pro actually works like there's just yeah things about it that don't work
00:11:05 ◼ ► but like yeah with the way that the apps were communicated from the watch and like how slow
00:11:11 ◼ ► everything was it was a not good product and i think they were trying their best at that time so
00:11:16 ◼ ► i just a word about being a johnny i have apologist johnny i was a brilliant designer i think that i think
00:11:20 ◼ ► the misunderstanding there and and i as i just said i understand why apple did it but the
00:11:24 ◼ ► misunderstanding there is johnny i was a brilliant designer who was working with a product person
00:11:29 ◼ ► steve jobs who had incredible taste and could take what was great about johnny i and also
00:11:35 ◼ ► sort of stomp on the stuff that didn't make sense and that didn't work for a product and after steve was
00:11:41 ◼ ► gone i feel like what happened is johnny was sort of given more free reign and really that is not the
00:11:48 ◼ ► dynamic that you want and it's not really even his fault also i think he he was burned out and was
00:11:53 ◼ ► bored and was trying stuff but like you need somebody to say no to johnny i've and in that
00:11:57 ◼ ► position in the 2010s uh was anybody willing to say no to johnny i've but you do steve was uh anyway
00:12:05 ◼ ► we've spent a lot of time talking about a product that's not going to make it on the monument i think
00:12:09 ◼ ► that we're going to find that to be the rest of this episode but let's it could be we might end up
00:12:13 ◼ ► with no monument at the end oh no no it's just going to be a couple of ipod socks and that's it
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00:15:44 ◼ ► interesting okay original ipod the the it's got the classic click wheel um it so it's got that look
00:15:54 ◼ ► it is it is bulky but it is representative of one of the most important products in apple history it is the
00:16:03 ◼ ► product that made people like apple as a brand again uh you know where they were perceived as a weird
00:16:12 ◼ ► outlying company and kind of like falling away from like their computers were not compatible
00:16:17 ◼ ► all those things and then the ipod came out and people wanted it and they had to have it
00:16:27 ◼ ► that uh is recognizable as an ipod even you know on our on our monument we could pick different models of ipod
00:16:36 ◼ ► but i'm just going for the original ipod it is that rectangle with the screen and the circle below it
00:16:42 ◼ ► and we can put some earbuds coming out of it we'll see what the sculptor or painter or whatever says
00:16:49 ◼ ► but i feel like a super defining product for a period of apple's existence that also uh changed the company
00:16:56 ◼ ► so the original ipod was the ipod where it had the click wheel i mean it was physically moved if i'm if i remember correctly
00:17:04 ◼ ► but it also had the circular buttons around the outside like this what this one you could not
00:17:10 ◼ ► uh it wasn't until what the ipod photo where the the click wheel actually became a clicking wheel
00:17:16 ◼ ► uh as opposed to became also the the buttons yes that's that's true they well they struggled with that
00:17:22 ◼ ► where they put the horizontal touch buttons that were bad they were so bad um third gen ipod bad ipod
00:17:28 ◼ ► bad bad ipod so i i just yeah you you could pick others this yeah they had the controls around the
00:17:33 ◼ ► outside of the ring and it spun which they in the second gen they made it more like a trackpad but the
00:17:38 ◼ ► first gen it spun but it doesn't i mean i i'm i'm not thinking about like these being functional because
00:17:43 ◼ ► it's going to be in a monument i'm thinking more about like the classic silhouette it's got that it's got a
00:17:47 ◼ ► bunch of iconic aspects to it the circle the the screen um you know it doesn't need a working firewire
00:17:53 ◼ ► port on top either it's fine it's just it's just i i feel like this is one of those iconic apple products
00:17:59 ◼ ► that should be considered for the monument i would like to carry this conversation on by making another
00:18:03 ◼ ► pick okay i cannot argue with the original ipod or like whatever it ends up being and maybe it ends
00:18:09 ◼ ► up being like you know if we were to think the iconic shape like it might be like the ipod photo or the
00:18:15 ◼ ► ipod video right that the really ended up like in its final form but if we're talking about from my
00:18:21 ◼ ► perspective a notable important product i would go with the ipod mini because i think the ipod mini
00:18:29 ◼ ► at least from my recollection of history as the person at the time the ipod mini was the product that i think
00:18:36 ◼ ► really opened the ipod up to the world it was super small bright colors you know and then you know
00:18:45 ◼ ► they were able to get four gigabytes in that tiny little thing you could clip it to your belt and
00:18:52 ◼ ► you had the white earbuds like this was my first ipod it was a pink ipod mini um which i still have
00:18:58 ◼ ► actually um and i i i really think the ipod mini i mean and it was followed by other ipods right like
00:19:05 ◼ ► the nano i think just opened it up even further but i think this was where fun was brought into the ipod line
00:19:11 ◼ ► and i think really kind of helped proliferate out into the world at a bigger degree even than the
00:19:18 ◼ ► original ipod but i would struggle to argue with just ipod classic as being the one on the monument
00:19:25 ◼ ► but i feel like i've got to throw out some love to the ipod mini because i really think that it was
00:19:29 ◼ ► very very influential i think that's fair i think that it's a um i my argument for the original ipod is
00:19:38 ◼ ► mostly that classic shape i think is a really pleasing kind of proportion and the ipod mini is
00:19:44 ◼ ► a little a little taller and a little skinnier um and a little rounder and and while that made it an
00:19:50 ◼ ► interesting and fun product i i i feel like the original ipod maybe just sort of says ipod more
00:19:56 ◼ ► but like we're dealing with details here it is a it is a fun product that yes it did bring it to the
00:20:01 ◼ ► masses and then of course famously was then immediately killed and replaced by the ipod nano
00:20:04 ◼ ► what did they say like it's uh most popular ipod ever or the most popular mp3 player in the world
00:20:09 ◼ ► and so what are we going to do we're going to kill it or we're going to replace it yeah something that's
00:20:13 ◼ ► the line i think so good so good yeah yeah because they replaced it with a flash based nano and and
00:20:19 ◼ ► that made all the difference because the whole point of the ipod mini was that it was smaller
00:20:22 ◼ ► um and so they could make it even smaller by making the flash based nano and the original ipod
00:20:26 ◼ ► you're right it it is um one of those things that happens sometimes where where it's like
00:20:32 ◼ ► the one being uh shown here is actually this very particular model or whatever like that might happen
00:20:38 ◼ ► with the ipod where we go to the designer of the of the statue or the painting or again whatever this
00:20:43 ◼ ► monument is and they say uh which ipod should it be if we decide an ipod is going to go on there maybe
00:20:49 ◼ ► maybe in the end it is the ipod classic or something that's a little more refined version because
00:20:54 ◼ ► that's what they did right they kept refining that silhouette of the ipod and it still always had
00:20:58 ◼ ► the circle at the bottom and the screen at the top and it was a rectangle and that's the most important
00:21:02 ◼ ► thing i think i think if if if this was a color product it would have to be white though i think
00:21:10 ◼ ► you're right it would have to i agree i think that's the iconic again that's the iconic ipod because i
00:21:16 ◼ ► never i never liked that about the classic that they were aluminium on the front i didn't like that i
00:21:22 ◼ ► i liked it right acrylic like there was it was white plastic and so like for me you know one that i have
00:21:28 ◼ ► on my list but i will not pick it now because there is no point doing this uh is the ipod video like
00:21:33 ◼ ► that that was such a for me a really important product but it also again it like it built on
00:21:40 ◼ ► the foundation of the ipod they made the screen a bit bigger you know it's full color you could watch
00:21:45 ◼ ► video on it i did i used to watch video podcasts uh on my ipod video um but that one was like super
00:21:53 ◼ ► great and i feel like something like that or the you know the the kind of the fourth generation
00:22:00 ◼ ► all right with my next um nomination i'm going to suggest the original mac okay from 1984
00:22:10 ◼ ► yep uh classic mac silhouette it is you know and it ended up on every mac after that for a long time
00:22:18 ◼ ► when you turned it on you would get the little happy mac and it's that mac it's that shape it's that
00:22:24 ◼ ► little again like an ipod it's an iconic shape and i think that if we're thinking about monuments i keep
00:22:31 ◼ ► coming back to like what is this object shape like and how is it going to so it's got to tell a story
00:22:37 ◼ ► like an important part of of apple but it's also got to be kind of recognizable and relevant and and
00:22:43 ◼ ► hopefully kind of pleasing and i think the original mac is pleasing i mean i could argue about the shape
00:22:51 ◼ ► of some other you know max compact max of that early era um it could be you know this is this is a the mac
00:22:59 ◼ ► the mac user eddie award statue and then ultimately the mac world eddie award statue was originally an
00:23:05 ◼ ► original mac and they updated it to make it an se or maybe it was a classic and it remained that for
00:23:10 ◼ ► the rest of time so there are lots of different uh classic compact max on there it doesn't have to
00:23:16 ◼ ► actually be the original mac but it's got you know it's got the little disc drive slot and a little
00:23:21 ◼ ► screen and it's just that cute little compact shape uh says macintosh to me i'm gonna make a
00:23:28 ◼ ► pick here so we can talk about this uh because i i think the representation if we were to say
00:23:35 ◼ ► we're gonna have a mac on this monument right like if that's the way we end up doing it because who
00:23:41 ◼ ► knows we could end up with just five max you know like we don't i i think picking a mac will actually
00:23:48 ◼ ► be the hardest thing to do could be and i will throw out the macbook air the original oh
00:23:56 ◼ ► now i watched you typing in our document you typed the letter i which i think you thought i was going
00:24:02 ◼ ► to go in a different direction i did i think that the macbook air you know which became you know the
00:24:09 ◼ ► one with a little flippy down door which then just became the macbook air which then became the m1
00:24:12 ◼ ► macbook air like that whole design it was so prevalent and lasted for so long i mean we were
00:24:19 ◼ ► just talking about this a little while ago about how you know people bemoan it when it's gone and we
00:24:24 ◼ ► heard from a lot of i heard from a lot of listeners anyway who were saying that they love their their
00:24:28 ◼ ► wedge-shaped macbook air sure i think it's it's probably the most staying power a format has had
00:24:40 ◼ ► like off the top of my head like essentially an unchanged design like even the imac as it grew up
00:24:49 ◼ ► from the g4 into what we have now i think changed more than the macbook air did in that time like
00:24:55 ◼ ► that that design it lost the flippy down door and then the screen got a bit bigger other than that i
00:25:00 ◼ ► don't think it changed like really at all throughout its entire life the second gen the second generation
00:25:07 ◼ ► air basically remained the same through the with with basically very little change through the m1
00:25:13 ◼ ► the 11 got dropped didn't it at some point yes they added the they added the 11 and dropped it yeah
00:25:21 ◼ ► and the 11 inch macbook air i mean come on you're kidding me like what an incredible i know i love
00:25:26 ◼ ► that computer i think it would be difficult not impossible but i think that it is difficult to
00:25:35 ◼ ► argue against the importance and the influence of the macbook air apple tried to get rid of it
00:25:42 ◼ ► multiple times but couldn't because their customers disagree it's true it's true when the when the it
00:25:49 ◼ ► went retina there was no 11 and it was sad but like it went retina after it had basically been
00:25:54 ◼ ► discontinued um or remained around but it had not been updated and they finally were like all right
00:26:00 ◼ ► here's your retina macbook air because they just couldn't like people they were still selling them
00:26:05 ◼ ► they're trying to get people to move to the macbook pro retina or to the the the retina the macbook
00:26:09 ◼ ► 12 inch and people are like nope i just want that macbook air and then i finally all right okay fine it's
00:26:15 ◼ ► and then today we did it you know we still have the macbook air which doesn't really make any logical
00:26:20 ◼ ► sense right there is nothing else in its class there isn't a regular macbook that this one is thinner or
00:26:26 ◼ ► lighter than yeah and like now pro the air branding is in other areas now and it's true because this
00:26:34 ◼ ► product is so loved that they have an ipad called the air we're expecting an iphone called the air like
00:26:46 ◼ ► aesthetic questions sure about the macbook air and laptops in general for the monument um maybe i'll
00:26:53 ◼ ► save those for later but there's a question of how would the how would you depict this and would it be
00:26:59 ◼ ► basically would it be open or would it be closed i because i think i feel like an open laptop is kind
00:27:04 ◼ ► of is kind of awkward and a closed laptop is is more an iconic shape but there's also like just a
00:27:10 ◼ ► just a rectangle i think for the purposes of our of allowing us to have this conversation fully
00:27:16 ◼ ► let's set the parameters for the monument i'm gonna say okay it is a statue right it's a statue it's a
00:27:22 ◼ ► statue okay so if it's a statue i think what what i would want is open but with the logo facing you
00:27:30 ◼ ► so you could go around to the back of the statue and see the rest of the laptop but that like it
00:27:35 ◼ ► should be an open laptop so you can see that it's an open laptop but i think that is the iconic
00:27:40 ◼ ► thing yeah in like and that goes back and that represents all macs right up to you know from a
00:27:47 ◼ ► certain point where they actually put the logo up the right way but that it represents a long time
00:27:52 ◼ ► of laptops and apple mac history but yeah for me it would be the macbook air nice okay well then i
00:28:02 ◼ ► will just put on the pile the imac g3 yeah i was struggling so i got my little list here and i actually
00:28:08 ◼ ► did have the g3 imac above the macbook air but then when it came to talking about it it's like oh i think
00:28:14 ◼ ► i've got to throw the air in there but the g3 i mean i got in my notes here i wrote it made apple cool
00:28:20 ◼ ► again and set them on the path that will become the ipod without the imac g3 there's no ipod without
00:28:26 ◼ ► the ipod there's no iphone exactly it's all it's all part of that comeback story it's funny that we've
00:28:32 ◼ ► talked a lot about how the imac g4 is the fundamental like maybe the most beautiful mac ever made yeah and
00:28:40 ◼ ► i agree and i could nominate it too and maybe i will because it is so beautiful the the you know with
00:28:52 ◼ ► design really as well as the impact the the g3 it you know it looks a little weird now because it's
00:29:00 ◼ ► kind of bulbous because it's got the whole crt in it and all that but it is hearkening back to the
00:29:05 ◼ ► original mac and it is that product that helped save apple and it does have a an unmistakable
00:29:13 ◼ ► silhouette right you see it and you're like oh it's that it's that imac g3 um and so it's an important
00:29:21 ◼ ► product i'm not sure in the long run if it's better than a better choice than a macbook air or an original
00:29:29 ◼ ► imac but it is an important product with a with a powerful recognizable silhouette which is why i
00:29:36 ◼ ► wanted to mention it this episode of upgrade is brought to you by google gemini i used gemini
00:29:44 ◼ ► for the first time the other day and the most impressive thing to me was just talking to it
00:29:48 ◼ ► you go live with it and then it's just like you're having a conversation you can just talk about your day
00:29:53 ◼ ► or have it explain something to you or start brainstorming ideas i'll give you an example i
00:29:59 ◼ ► pretended i had a job interview coming up and i asked for it to help me prep for the interview
00:30:04 ◼ ► it immediately started suggesting common questions i might get asked then i started talking through my
00:30:09 ◼ ► answers out loud and it would give me feedback and it's all happening in real time like i'm talking
00:30:14 ◼ ► to a career coach that's just what i tried first but you can talk to it about anything and that's the
00:30:20 ◼ ► magic of it how you can have this back and forth and it's all seamless if you haven't tried it yet
00:30:24 ◼ ► it's definitely worth checking out you'll see what i mean i thanks to google gemini for the support of
00:30:29 ◼ ► this show and all of relay this is a difficult one um because i it is interesting now i think i think
00:30:39 ◼ ► design has come back around like it where we are today in 2025 i think we're back with the imac g3 again
00:30:48 ◼ ► which you know like from part of it is the fonts that apple were using at that point i don't know
00:30:54 ◼ ► if you know the name of it but like the the serif font that they were using there are versions of
00:30:59 ◼ ► this now everywhere it's apple isn't that apple garamond i think they were using garamond before
00:31:04 ◼ ► that sounds right but like that that style that like the way that garamond looks if you find a startup
00:31:10 ◼ ► today they're using a font that looks like this like they are so prevalent but just also just like
00:31:15 ◼ ► the general color where people want the color the see-through like the clear you know people like
00:31:20 ◼ ► that sure and even i i agree with what you're saying about the bulbousness of the g3 but it still
00:31:27 ◼ ► looks cool still it looks cool and that is not it's an interesting object it really is not just the
00:31:37 ◼ ► that doesn't look cool anymore the the toilet the toilet seat yeah it doesn't and it has a lot of
00:31:47 ◼ ► it's not cool like you're taking all my jokes these are all my jokes it's like what it's a blue and
00:31:55 ◼ ► white power power mac g3 let's get let's get the molar mac in there on the monument boy that's why i
00:32:00 ◼ ► didn't invite stephen hackett to this discussion yeah that's why it would be all it would be all
00:32:03 ◼ ► just like let me tell you about this performer weird max it'd be like a like a human centipede of max it
00:32:09 ◼ ► would be disgusting and you'd have to look away like no no i don't want to see it no performers no
00:32:16 ◼ ► but like i just think that the g3 it is its coolness and its design is kind of never-ending
00:32:23 ◼ ► like we work a cortex brand we work with a couple of uh branding designers um and they're from
00:32:30 ◼ ► australia and they're i don't know probably like 10 years younger than me maybe more they were not
00:32:34 ◼ ► around or really aware of the g3 but we were having a conversation recently and they brought up how cool
00:32:41 ◼ ► it looked so like i don't even think it's like a nostalgia thing yeah it's not just like oh you were
00:32:45 ◼ ► there at the time no people just love the way this thing looks and from an important and again it's
00:32:51 ◼ ► like what is importance this product is really important like it is we don't have apple today
00:32:59 ◼ ► we're at the g3 right it is it's super relevant i think i think all the products that we've mentioned
00:33:05 ◼ ► so far except the apple watch edition could be said i just had to get it in there but i needed it i know
00:33:11 ◼ ► i know you started us off with a bang uh yeah okay this is gonna be a tough decision for this uh
00:33:49 ◼ ► hmm so like the white earbuds i guess the ipod earbuds i don't even i because this has just popped
00:33:59 ◼ ► into my mind now because like now i'm back in like i'm thinking further back right because the airpods
00:34:05 ◼ ► look the way they do because of earpods right that came before those yes came before those was the white
00:34:15 ◼ ► earbud that that was yes part of the ipod and then also the iphone they are so they again were like
00:34:24 ◼ ► there are elements there are there are products that enabled the apple we have today and they are
00:34:32 ◼ ► the ipod they are the iMac g3 and they are the white earbuds because you were making a statement
00:34:38 ◼ ► whether you liked it or not and people wanted these things if you you could have used any earbuds with
00:34:44 ◼ ► most of your products you could use any earbuds but the white earbuds were a fashion statement
00:34:50 ◼ ► for a long time so i'm gonna throw those out there i mean i would also put airpods but i'm i i just
00:34:56 ◼ ► while i'm while i'm thinking retro i'm gonna i'm gonna throw the white earbuds out there as a
00:35:01 ◼ ► important in the history of apple all right well i am going to rip the band-aid off okay
00:35:12 ◼ ► um white earbuds also we're gonna put up we're gonna put a little um pin in that one because
00:35:18 ◼ ► you might be able to depict them with the original ipod that's a good that's a good call yeah we can
00:35:24 ◼ ► get a two for that that's you can slide them in every set of rules needs loopholes and that is the
00:35:29 ◼ ► loophole yeah that's right um i'm gonna pick the iphone 5 okay interesting all right okay
00:36:05 ◼ ► um i had a black iphone 5 and it was the best it was so awesome um and i i feel like if you're
00:36:13 ◼ ► going to depict the iphone maybe you depict an early iphone design where it's got the button on it below
00:36:20 ◼ ► the screen and if you're doing that you could pick the original you could and i could see the argument
00:36:27 ◼ ► for picking the original the original is super important but also the original is a one-off
00:36:33 ◼ ► and they never really go back there they made the plastic version of it which was the 3gs
00:36:38 ◼ ► and the 3g and then they went to the 4 which was this style and that was 4 5 6 7 8 and then they
00:36:47 ◼ ► they shifted to the iphone 10 so you so what was it 6 7 is it 6 7 8 that have the rounded edges
00:36:54 ◼ ► yes that are more like bars of soap yeah well 6 6s 7 7s and yes right right so i think i prefer the
00:37:04 ◼ ► flat-sided design to the bar of soap curved design and that's and that's why i picked the 5 is i think it's
00:37:14 ◼ ► representative like i think the original and the 3g and 3gs are interesting historically i love the
00:37:22 ◼ ► original iphone but it is from a design perspective it's it's what they could ship whereas i think 4
00:37:28 ◼ ► and 5 come the closest to being closest for a while anyway to being sort of what they wanted the iphone to be
00:37:38 ◼ ► i could also maybe argue that like the iphone 10 is is literally what johnny i've wanted to ship
00:37:48 ◼ ► but i really like the flat-sided design so i feel like if it's not the iphone 5 i have to go up to
00:37:54 ◼ ► like the iphone 13 okay and i i you know i another kind of like flat-sided but in that case buttonless and
00:38:02 ◼ ► i don't know i think i think just like with the original ipod having the circular item down at the
00:38:06 ◼ ► bottom is sort of iconic with apple so i'm gonna split the difference and say iphone 5 i'm not i
00:38:11 ◼ ► don't feel super strong about it but if i have to pick one i could go with a classic i could go with
00:38:16 ◼ ► a later model like a 10 or a 14 or something like that but um but why not iphone 5 i want to correct
00:38:24 ◼ ► myself there was no iphone 7s okay which is a funny thing that they did they went from 7 to 8 but
00:38:30 ◼ ► the 8 was why didn't they just call the 8 the 7s anyway so i had in my notes for similar reasons
00:38:39 ◼ ► the iphone 5s but from an so again this is like if we're imagining it as a statue it doesn't make a
00:38:47 ◼ ► difference in the 5 and the 5s but i put the 5s down because i had touch id right um as like a an
00:38:54 ◼ ► important thing but if you've just got something made of marble it doesn't matter what one it is
00:38:57 ◼ ► you have made an interesting there is there is something interesting about what you have chosen
00:39:05 ◼ ► here for like what is the iconic iphone exactly it's the 12 by the way the 12 is when the flat side
00:39:13 ◼ ► design came back so i feel like flat side design is the way to go and that maybe the circle the touch
00:39:19 ◼ ► id button at the bottom the home button is i think it has to be because the that one the six
00:39:25 ◼ ► to the eight bad time for iphone design the only good thing was they made a big one but the rounded
00:39:30 ◼ ► was not that that i don't think that ever truly looked good uh and and i think people got tired of
00:39:37 ◼ ► it very quickly in a way that even though i think we've sat with this flat edge design since the 12 for
00:39:43 ◼ ► longer now um yes it isn't as tired looking like by the time we got to like 7s it was like oh god
00:39:50 ◼ ► please apple change the design of this iphone like i remember that being like a prevalent thing at the
00:40:02 ◼ ► right i mean the 4 is shorter is all um and the and the 5 is a little bit taller what makes the
00:40:10 ◼ ► why 5s and not 5 i i just i put touch because i had touch id i thought that was interesting
00:40:17 ◼ ► okay it adds the little metallic ring around the circle okay i mean that that might be it depends
00:40:22 ◼ ► on sort of the materials that the sculptor uses yeah in our made-up thing um it could be it could be
00:40:29 ◼ ► the 5s yeah i'm i'm open i my love really is that i that great black um iphone 5 and i loved it
00:40:36 ◼ ► as my darth vader phone that was my favorite that was my favorite for sure i mean all right i'm just
00:40:42 ◼ ► going to put original iphone now so it's on the list like sure i mean realistically it's the most
00:40:50 ◼ ► important product that apple has ever made and will probably ever make i don't think they will ever
00:40:56 ◼ ► and i feel confident saying this i do not believe apple inc will ever make a product as important as
00:41:04 ◼ ► the iphone ever again i might go so far as to say no company currently constituted will ever make a
00:41:10 ◼ ► product as important as the original iphone maybe some new company will i think you're right i mean
00:41:14 ◼ ► in our lifetimes anyway realistically the company before this was apple and the company before that
00:41:21 ◼ ► was also apple right of like the ipod yeah and the mac of like yeah and the smartphone i mean the
00:41:27 ◼ ► smartphone is in many ways at least so far the culmination of the entire computer industry
00:41:32 ◼ ► and is the biggest most impactful um consumer product of our era because we've gone from you
00:41:40 ◼ ► know not having personal computers in the 70s to now 50 years later everybody's got a supercomputer
00:41:47 ◼ ► tied into a global high-speed computer network in their pocket everywhere they go like it's huge
00:41:52 ◼ ► it's transformative here's a question for you is the iphone more important than the pc like if we're
00:41:59 ◼ ► looking at in all of history like we could say the mac or the pc or whatever just in general
00:42:04 ◼ ► like let's say the mac is like the first true personal computer is the iphone more important than the mac
00:42:11 ◼ ► yes yeah i think so it's required by the pc the computer is required to get to the smartphone but the
00:42:17 ◼ ► smartphone is more important because the smartphone smartphone reaches more people more people use a
00:42:22 ◼ ► smartphone than ever used a computer and is used by them yeah you know they use it and they use the data
00:42:30 ◼ ► and they use the they may use the phone but they also use the data i think the smartphone is the it literally
00:42:36 ◼ ► is the culmination of the entire as somebody who came up as a computer person a fan of computers i you know
00:42:42 ◼ ► first got my hands on a computer and like i don't know fourth grade something like that and just was
00:42:48 ◼ ► blown away by it um and it changed my life it was a funny moment when the smartphone is growing and
00:42:54 ◼ ► sometime in the 2010s where i had that realization that oh all of that was just a prelude to this and
00:43:01 ◼ ► maybe there's another thing to come maybe it goes into something that is you wear on your face or
00:43:07 ◼ ► whatever like we will see but thus far this seems to be the definitive product of this entire industry
00:43:14 ◼ ► and that has the biggest global impact you could live your life without a personal computer right you
00:43:21 ◼ ► could have lived your life yeah many parts of the world people don't have computers they just have
00:43:26 ◼ ► phones i think modern society requires a smartphone and boy it does it the iphone everything's got an app
00:43:34 ◼ ► is the smartphone right and there are now there are now many competitors but what we consider the
00:43:39 ◼ ► smartphone or even what we consider a phone today it's the iphone that that's that is the one that
00:43:45 ◼ ► began it and that's why i would put it here even though it might not be the most iconic look it's the
00:43:53 ◼ ► most important product i think i think that's the argument is is is aesthetics here because i the original
00:44:00 ◼ ► iphone it's kind of bodged together it's got it's got uh kind of bulbous kind of curves that i don't
00:44:05 ◼ ► love it's got the two-piece back that is not great it's still metallic like they and when they went to
00:44:11 ◼ ► plastic i i'm sure that really drove johnny i batty because it they they were they were cheaper they felt
00:44:18 ◼ ► cheap and i know why they did it they had to do it but like the plastic backs were not as good and and as
00:44:25 ◼ ► soon as they could they got away from there right they're like they skated away from there
00:44:29 ◼ ► but but um that early era it was not great and i feel like the four and the five is when they really
00:44:35 ◼ ► kind of figured it out and then they kind of went into a hole a little bit so it really comes down to
00:44:39 ◼ ► whether we want a representative whether it matters more that it's the first or whether it matters more
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00:47:20 ◼ ► although i actually you know before we move on i'm just gonna throw them out there we're not gonna pick
00:47:34 ◼ ► maybe the iphone 10 we would include the 6 plus i think is important because it's the first big fun
00:47:41 ◼ ► but i've even noted and i mentioned already this month the design outstayed it's welcome
00:47:48 ◼ ► oh yeah and i don't think the sculpture is going to be actual size so whatever iphone we choose
00:47:53 ◼ ► can probably be really big yeah unless the concept is like it's a person holding all of these devices
00:47:59 ◼ ► but i don't think i don't know i mean it's up to the sculptor i guess up to the sculptor that that's
00:48:03 ◼ ► for their artistic interpretation uh-huh i look forward to the fan art by the way that we're surely
00:48:08 ◼ ► undoubtedly going to get for this episode which i will respect i'm saying it now and i don't know
00:48:14 ◼ ► whether this will come to be but i'm sort of thinking we might want to commission something but
00:48:17 ◼ ► anyway we'll see we'll see we'll see it's actually not a bad idea we have the time maybe there will
00:48:22 ◼ ► be something by the time this episode is done maybe um maybe the iphone 4 is important for so many
00:48:30 ◼ ► reasons in history like it was the iphone that leaked it was the first retina display it had the
00:48:36 ◼ ► first gate sure and it brought in the the the flat side design that i think is the the best design
00:48:43 ◼ ► and then just a random one that i want to throw out there for kind of similar reasons i think to
00:48:47 ◼ ► my gold apple watch is the iphone 7 plus um okay it was the first phone that had a dual camera
00:49:04 ◼ ► all right i'm gonna i don't know how i feel about this one but i'm gonna i'm gonna put it out there
00:49:27 ◼ ► pro okay in in their case okay so we're even going batistic here well like airpods pro is just
00:49:44 ◼ ► like a thing i mean they could float in space or if you just have the case it's just a rectangle but
00:49:50 ◼ ► i'm thinking like i think i i think i'd like to the idea that apple first off airpods in general
00:49:56 ◼ ► uh what a very successful product that people don't talk about uh a really great example of a
00:50:02 ◼ ► category where there were already existing products that did it and then apple came in and everybody
00:50:06 ◼ ► went oh my god and like apple became wildly successful selling them and other people still
00:50:10 ◼ ► sell them and they're successful but not like apple is successful it really is like apple just
00:50:15 ◼ ► it's classic apple move in all of those ways and i can tell you as somebody who has been wearing
00:50:20 ◼ ► in-ear headphones for a couple of decades now and has turned my nose up at apple headphones and it's
00:50:27 ◼ ► like they're just not good they don't sound good i don't like them the earbuds i just i never liked
00:50:32 ◼ ► them i was so skeptical of the original airpods and they were really good and then they added noise
00:50:40 ◼ ► canceling in the airpods pro and and they're in their canal phones and they are spectacularly good
00:50:47 ◼ ► to the point now where i don't use my in-ear headphones for anything but podcasting everything
00:50:53 ◼ ► else i just use airpods pro and then the fact that they have this charging case which could have been
00:50:58 ◼ ► like super fiddly and weird but instead i think generally is just a very simple way to have that
00:51:06 ◼ ► extra battery life and a place to hold them because you've got to put them somewhere you're going to
00:51:11 ◼ ► lose them and the fact that they kind of like did that as a package and that it that it works as well
00:51:18 ◼ ► as it does i think it's a really great design yeah i think i would probably pick the airpods pro shape
00:51:23 ◼ ► of the case that's a little bit wider but it could be the standard airpods and that would be fine too
00:51:29 ◼ ► but i think airpods in their case of some kind that would be what i i would propose i think an accessory
00:51:35 ◼ ► i think airpods pro is the right pick like because airpods like the original airpods just super awkward
00:51:42 ◼ ► design stems were too long um and you know apple has come to refine the the the airpods that we have
00:51:49 ◼ ► today to look more like the airpods pro i think that that is again it's like we got to the better
00:51:57 ◼ ► version right so i can think back to the ipod well really the ipod photo the ipod video that is or even
00:52:04 ◼ ► like what we're saying about the iphone potentially depending on what we go with like they get to where
00:52:08 ◼ ► they want to be as opposed to the original airpods which were super weird looking i mean but it was
00:52:14 ◼ ► actually quite an achievement of how good a product they were that people wanted to wear those because
00:52:20 ◼ ► they were weird looking they were like with the the stems that came down that was it really did look
00:52:26 ◼ ► like somebody just came around and cut the cables off of your earbuds yeah when now they are much more
00:52:31 ◼ ► sleek and a much better design and that came with the airpods pro i'm gonna go with the ipad the
00:52:38 ◼ ► original ipad all right and the reason i will go with the original ipad is the price 499 which was
00:52:51 ◼ ► half of what everybody thought it was going to be it's maybe the only time in history where apple has
00:52:56 ◼ ► surprised us with a significantly cheaper price than what we expected a product to be i mean everybody
00:53:03 ◼ ► thought there is no way they make a tablet for less than a thousand dollars right that that was the
00:53:11 ◼ ► expectation at the time like you know the ipad is a complicated product and if i'm being completely
00:53:18 ◼ ► honest with myself i think i would struggle to argue its place on this monument just in general as a product
00:53:27 ◼ ► category i think it would be difficult um i mean we haven't gotten to the end yet there are there are
00:53:33 ◼ ► complete other categories we've not given a realistic representation to yeah looking at you apple watch
00:53:40 ◼ ► edition series zero uh but the the original ipad is a good product it was the time when people have been
00:53:49 ◼ ► most excited about the ipad on mass right you know it's hard to i think it's easy to forget
00:53:56 ◼ ► just how successful the ipad was at the beginning they sold so many of them so for a long time
00:54:03 ◼ ► um and you know the the app store was rich and vibrant but the but look the story oldest time now
00:54:10 ◼ ► at this point just the ipad did not live up to its potential and still doesn't uh but at the beginning
00:54:17 ◼ ► i mean there was the hey this is a big iphone thing but while people said that negatively at that point
00:54:23 ◼ ► in 2010 that was actually a good thing like we loved the iphone the iphone was small having a having a
00:54:31 ◼ ► having access to the app store on a big screen on a big screen was really important then yeah i agree
00:54:40 ◼ ► i agree i'm gonna i'm gonna counter here okay and this is i i i like your suggestion of the original ipad
00:54:50 ◼ ► i think my counter is largely about design one of the things okay so here's a funny thing one of the
00:54:57 ◼ ► things that i love about the original ipad is its design it's look it gets bulbous at the back
00:55:05 ◼ ► it it has the flat sides and then they just kind of keep going out so it wants you to think that it's
00:55:11 ◼ ► got flat sides and that's the whole end but it it keeps going because it's just too much hold though
00:55:16 ◼ ► right it did no it did um it's a good design i didn't love the future ipad designs that became
00:55:29 ◼ ► more instead of the as has been made clear already i kind of like the flat side look for a device and
00:55:37 ◼ ► not the kind of tapered design yeah and the ipad did the tapered design for a very very long time
00:55:44 ◼ ► and the button on the ipad is iconic the original ipad and i've said before like touch id uh home
00:55:53 ◼ ► button kind of stuff feels very iconic just like the click wheel and this you know feels iconic on the
00:55:59 ◼ ► ipod but i'm going to put it out there that i think as a representation of the platonic ideal
00:56:17 ◼ ► and uh and a perfect uh flat-sided rectangular slab i would say the that is that's the johnny
00:56:28 ◼ ► i've ipad it's very thin it's featureless i mean it is very johnny uh in that way and and so i think it
00:56:39 ◼ ► could be potentially a good representative of the ipad without feeling uh because the original ipad i mean
00:56:46 ◼ ► it did it did do really well it did it did a lot of people bought that original ipad um but i think the
00:56:52 ◼ ► m4 ipad pro is in some ways kind of a refinement at that same uh design in terms of being you know
00:57:08 ◼ ► i know it really i know but there i am it's what the ipad this is clearly what the ipad should have
00:57:15 ◼ ► always been which is like essentially couldn't be uh it is literally as thin and light as you can make
00:57:20 ◼ ► it right like that's clearly what they're going for with the m4 ipad pro right how thin and how light
00:57:27 ◼ ► can this product be because that gets it closest to what i mean i you know we keep invoking his name
00:57:34 ◼ ► but steve jobs is like you're just holding a piece of glass that's right that's what the m4 ipad pro feels
00:57:41 ◼ ► like and i could make that argument for modern iphones the honestly one of the reasons that i suggested
00:57:46 ◼ ► the iphone 5 instead of a modern iphone is the camera bump the camera sensor in the back is so ugly
00:57:51 ◼ ► and the iphone 5 it was less it was just like a little camera yeah and honestly i think that's the difference
00:57:56 ◼ ► and yes the ipad also has a camera bump so you could go with the original ipad there i just i i like
00:58:01 ◼ ► i i just it is there's something about that m4 ipad pro i think that is um again it's so expensive
00:58:08 ◼ ► all those other things but like from a design standpoint it being like an a perfect ipad you
00:58:14 ◼ ► could say that about honestly the modern ipad air is like that too but something like that okay um
00:58:22 ◼ ► important i don't know but potentially iconic is the vision pro i mean it is what it is right but like
00:58:34 ◼ ► i i don't i think it there are there are few products in apple's modern history that are so
00:58:41 ◼ ► clearly the thing they want to make for good or ill from a kind of a visual perspective like it's so clearly
00:58:56 ◼ ► it's almost like someone was walking around and picking up pieces you know like it has a crown
00:59:06 ◼ ► on it right like it's got it's kind of got like a apple watch band kind of thing around the back of it
00:59:13 ◼ ► like looks like a bunch of bands that they make it's like oh we're going to use the glass and the
00:59:18 ◼ ► aluminium from the iphone and it's really got like so many component pieces to what put this thing
00:59:26 ◼ ► together is just stuff apple makes even on the inside like it has essentially a mac chip on the
00:59:35 ◼ ► inside of the thing right and then obviously another it has every possible camera you could put on
00:59:40 ◼ ► something i mean it is if this thing is ever considered if the original vision pro in the future
00:59:47 ◼ ► is ever considered important i think it is important for maybe the wrong reasons and you know it's like
00:59:55 ◼ ► there is a possibility where vision pro 4 is like it's taken over the world but people would look back
01:00:02 ◼ ► at the vision pro the original one and be like you could see where they were going but it needed this
01:00:07 ◼ ► it needed that and then it eventually gets to to where they want it to be you know like in the same way that like
01:00:14 ◼ ► like the original ipod right i keep coming back to this but like i do think that there is a good analog
01:00:20 ◼ ► there of like you can see what they were going for and it was really cool i mean it did have a bigger impact
01:00:26 ◼ ► but it needed much more refinement to get it to the point where this thing works the way exactly as it should
01:00:32 ◼ ► right like it made so much sense to not have these extra buttons on the thing it made so much sense for
01:00:39 ◼ ► it to not be an actual spinning disc inside right like it kind of gets to that point and i think
01:00:46 ◼ ► there is a path where the vision pro takes its own thing you don't need that screen on the front
01:00:51 ◼ ► it doesn't need to be so heavy right like there are many things just from a physical perspective
01:00:58 ◼ ► where we get to like oh it could do with support and controllers so you can do different things with it
01:01:03 ◼ ► you know like sure it gets to a point right like oh it needs to have apple intelligence so you can
01:01:09 ◼ ► just talk to it and it will do things for you so you haven't got to be tapping and pinching all the
01:01:13 ◼ ► time but there are a lot of things that this product could have so i wanted to throw out there because
01:01:17 ◼ ► it is what it is yeah the danger is we put it on the statue when in five years they're like what is
01:01:24 ◼ ► this a monument to apple's hubris that they put the vision pro on it that's the danger but again like
01:01:29 ◼ ► i feel it's it's similar to why i picked the gold apple watch right it's like that yeah it says
01:01:35 ◼ ► something about the company it does say something about apple it is then this is going to be jason
01:01:41 ◼ ► and mike's controversial apple monument we're gonna be picked the gold apple watch uh the vision pro
01:01:48 ◼ ► what like the iphone 8 and yeah and and some ipod socks um well just wait because i'm gonna pick
01:01:58 ◼ ► the original mac mouse now maybe like with air but like earbuds we can we can sneak it in with the ipod
01:02:13 ◼ ► maybe we can sneak this in with the original mac if we use it but i want to mention an accessory
01:02:17 ◼ ► the original mac mouse is representative of the fact that this is the original graphical interface
01:02:29 ◼ ► this is when the mouse was introduced to the world really i know it existed a long time before that but
01:02:36 ◼ ► this is when everybody suddenly understood what a mouse was i think that it's an interesting
01:02:41 ◼ ► product ergonomically uh it's got a recognizable shape and what's also fun about it is that it's
01:02:48 ◼ ► the one button mouse because that was a choice apple made to simplify uh mouse concepts that had
01:02:56 ◼ ► multiple buttons and of course then everybody that followed apple also decided to complicate it by adding
01:03:01 ◼ ► more buttons and apple has sort of steadfastly refused to do a multi-button mouse they have sort of like
01:03:10 ◼ ► they do but it doesn't it's hidden and it's not really and so anyway that's my historical pitch for putting
01:03:17 ◼ ► a mouse on a monument and that's a classic kids book if you give a mouse a monument yeah as i say i think if
01:03:25 ◼ ► if this was to make it on it would be with the mac like if we put the original mac on there we'd put this
01:03:34 ◼ ► sure and and i'm going to put the original one in you know it the apple pencil is that is that a
01:03:43 ◼ ► official nomination for you should i put that down let's put it on there why not okay it legitimized
01:03:49 ◼ ► the tool people really wanted the ipad to to have right like there were so many styluses and they were
01:03:56 ◼ ► essentially just finger replacements right they did not do yes yes refined work and like they couldn't
01:04:05 ◼ ► really it it did open up a new field a legit and legitimized a use of the ipad as a drawing tablet
01:04:15 ◼ ► and i think that is a significant portion of professional ipad use is artists and illustrators
01:04:24 ◼ ► who use this device to do their work and it is for many the best device that you could use
01:04:38 ◼ ► they they have definitely made this a smart like a valid like use of the ipad and the apple pencil i
01:04:48 ◼ ► mean it the original one uh is also a little bit notorious for its charging method you know and i
01:04:54 ◼ ► feel like you kind of kind of i feel like if it was this on the statue the cap would be lost it would
01:04:59 ◼ ► be on the ground somewhere you know like a little stone little marble cap somewhere that's like fixed to
01:05:05 ◼ ► the ground and the little lightning port sticking out on the top all right i'm gonna close it out
01:05:10 ◼ ► gonna close the nominations out oh we're closing the nominations i think so are you have more i mean
01:05:17 ◼ ► we just got to the end of the list but it's fine we can we'll we'll i'm i'm this is gonna be my last
01:05:21 ◼ ► one this is gonna be my last one i think i'll be okay to move on and that may be yeah i want to make
01:05:27 ◼ ► one more after you if you don't pick something that if you don't pick the thing i'm thinking about
01:05:33 ◼ ► i pick the power mac g4 cube that's what i pick i think it's like it's already like a sculpture okay
01:05:38 ◼ ► it's already a sculpture it's already like a statue it is a problematic computer but a beautiful piece of art
01:05:44 ◼ ► and uh i think that you could take it you could build a giant power mac g4 cube somewhere and it would
01:05:50 ◼ ► be a great art piece all on its own and so i i put it here it could be the base of the statue even
01:05:56 ◼ ► uh i just want to put the apple watch series 4 in here uh i think okay the apple watch is an
01:06:02 ◼ ► important enough product that it deserves to at least be in the consideration seriously um all right
01:06:08 ◼ ► and i think the series 4 is where the apple watch kind of got out of its ugly duckling phase i still
01:06:15 ◼ ► think that it needs significant work the apple watch is like a full redesign i i i'd still believe that
01:06:22 ◼ ► that is something that i would like to see them do one day but the apple watch series 4 where the
01:06:26 ◼ ► screen kind of really took over the shape of the watch i think was was a pretty important step in
01:06:32 ◼ ► in its product i think i have others on my list but i think we can maybe keep those for upgrade plus
01:06:37 ◼ ► because then i don't believe that there is any product on here that i think is important enough
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01:08:29 ◼ ► so it's deliberation time so we're gonna pick a list of five from the list that we have
01:08:38 ◼ ► why don't you go first for like making we're not picking it's not drafting this we have to come to
01:08:45 ◼ ► this agreement together but do you want to go first to elevating we'd like try and pick one to elevate
01:08:51 ◼ ► and again we can we can do a re-ranking like if we put something on this list it doesn't have to
01:08:56 ◼ ► stay on this list right like we can we can shift them off but we've got to start trying to make uh
01:09:00 ◼ ► uh some some some we've got to try and pick some of these short lists to put them on the the five i think
01:09:07 ◼ ► okay um i think the ipod has to be on yeah yeah um i think i think the ipod has to be on
01:09:18 ◼ ► i think i don't know let's let's do it this way i think an iphone has to be on absolutely
01:09:24 ◼ ► and i think a mac needs to be on yeah and then beyond that we actually have two slots yeah for
01:09:32 ◼ ► other things whether it's an ipad apple watch other macs other iphone's whatever i my argument is going
01:09:42 ◼ ► to be that we only need one ipod and then i think we only need one iphone because all they're just
01:09:47 ◼ ► you know they're so similar yeah whereas at least with mac industrial design it's not only as a much
01:09:54 ◼ ► older product i also by the way uh because people are going to say this i didn't nominate the apple 2
01:09:58 ◼ ► or the apple 2e or the apple 2c they are interesting um but i don't think that they're that attractive
01:10:06 ◼ ► you can't argue that that is more important than the mac right i don't think you yeah but i don't
01:10:12 ◼ ► think you can make that we're talking about apple design like okay i'll i'll just it's not going on
01:10:19 ◼ ► the monument probably but i'm just going to say i'll put the apple to retroactively i just nominated the
01:10:23 ◼ ► apple 2e there it is good i just did it we're also now equal because i i threw an actual one at the
01:10:28 ◼ ► but i really i don't to me right i don't think you can say the apple 2e and then just immediately
01:10:36 ◼ ► replace it with the original macintosh like yeah i i know that there'll be people that disagree with
01:10:43 ◼ ► that but i think that would be a wild thing to disagree with um all right here's what i'll say
01:10:48 ◼ ► i want to get i do want to get specific right so for the ipod we'll start with the ipod i would
01:10:53 ◼ ► down suggest what it was essentially the ipod video which became the ipod classic fifth gen at a
01:11:02 ◼ ► certain point but that is it's got the larger screen so it's easier to see just a pure click wheel
01:11:11 ◼ ► and it's flat on the front white acrylic i think that is like the absolute sweet spot for iconic ipod
01:11:22 ◼ ► in my opinion the fifth gen is also known as okay ipod fifth gen white yeah got it i'm i'm fine with
01:11:30 ◼ ► that let's do it that's that is still the iconic shape let's put the earbuds in there too we've got
01:11:35 ◼ ► to get the white with white earbuds yeah got it okay now do we want to try and do iphone
01:11:44 ◼ ► sure sure i feel like the iphone 5 but um i don't like the original iphone mostly because i i don't
01:11:53 ◼ ► think it's as good as important as a product if we're talking about design so we're really in the
01:11:58 ◼ ► like what goes which one do we want our artists to depict in the statue right which is not the same as
01:12:03 ◼ ► what's the most iconic but it's like how do we want to depict the iphone which iphone do we choose
01:12:11 ◼ ► to depict the importance of the iphone right that's sort of what we're saying here so iphone 5 i pick
01:12:19 ◼ ► from a purely uh aesthetic argument yeah so all right so i think realistically we have three phones to pick
01:12:30 ◼ ► from right we have the original iphone we have the iphone 5 we have the iphone 10 they are our iphones to
01:12:42 ◼ ► recognizability i think today is probably the iphone 10 like realistically i don't agree because the iphone
01:12:52 ◼ ► five design but the iphone 5 design comes back with the iphone 12 yeah but the iphone 10 is that is the
01:12:59 ◼ ► is the is the bar of soap design yeah but i'm thinking about the the home button no right now like
01:13:06 ◼ ► physical shape yeah they're they're you know the iphone 5 but like if if you're depicting
01:13:12 ◼ ► the actual phone with some level of detail the home button while iconic it's probably not the most
01:13:20 ◼ ► recognizable thing today well yeah but it's iconic i mean that's that's my argument otherwise otherwise
01:13:26 ◼ ► i would make the argument because i i do not i mean i don't want the curvy sides at that point i would
01:13:31 ◼ ► say why not why isn't it the iphone 12 pro yeah but so here's the thing i know except for the except
01:13:36 ◼ ► for the camera blob on the back or the iphone 15 i would say non-pro iconic perspective the iphone 5
01:13:43 ◼ ► takes it but what's the most important iphone that's what we're talking about here right like
01:13:51 ◼ ► we're building importance in some way and like can you argue against the original yeah but
01:13:57 ◼ ► i think it's a combination of importance and also sort of like iconic design and the iphone and also
01:14:05 ◼ ► i mean i could also make the point that the original iphone didn't until you got to the iphone 4 you
01:14:11 ◼ ► couldn't even buy it on anything but at&t in the u.s so like the ipod it actually had a a big trajectory
01:14:19 ◼ ► most important ipod was the original ipod 2 or was the ipod mini maybe but we picked the ipod
01:14:25 ◼ ► fifth gen i think what we have to do is say okay we're honoring the iphone and then it's sort of
01:14:28 ◼ ► like which of the designs do we feel is like the best to be represented here and that's why i wouldn't
01:14:33 ◼ ► pick the original iphone as much as i love it too because i don't think it's a representative i think it
01:14:38 ◼ ► was a you know i think i think there were better iphones later um and i i'd be fine depicting a modern
01:14:45 ◼ ► iphone here because i do i i do like the flat-sided era better than i like the curved era yeah i think
01:14:54 ◼ ► all right so we have five spots on this list why don't we put two iphones on this for now and we
01:14:59 ◼ ► can come back and revise this i don't i don't want you don't want to put two iphones i don't wow okay
01:15:12 ◼ ► if you don't like the home button as an iconic representation of the iphone then we could
01:15:17 ◼ ► then i would propose a modern flat-sided iphone of some sort no i think i think the iphone 5 is the
01:15:23 ◼ ► best possible representation of the history of the iphone it has enough elements of classic and modern
01:15:34 ◼ ► design that it would work as a if we're if we want to pick an iphone to represent all iphones
01:15:41 ◼ ► my and i would be happy to compromise on this but but my pick would be the original iphone
01:15:47 ◼ ► that would be my just from like a historical perspective i i think i think the ipod and
01:15:56 ◼ ► even to some extent even the max whichever we end up choosing i think you're fine to pick like
01:16:03 ◼ ► what is the what is the overall best representation of this product but i just think as we were talking
01:16:08 ◼ ► earlier like the original iphone was like the most important thing that has ever happened in
01:16:15 ◼ ► technology yeah but it was in some ways it was but it really was the original iphone and the iphone 3g
01:16:22 ◼ ► and the iphone 3gs and the iphone 4 and the iphone 5 and that's my really it was probably the app store
01:16:27 ◼ ► right which is not a thing we're documenting yeah well i just i you can't put the original iphone on here
01:16:32 ◼ ► in the fifth gen ipod i'll put it that way like it's either they're both either either then we're going
01:16:37 ◼ ► all original it's the original ipod the original iphone the original mac and the original ipad and
01:16:44 ◼ ► then i don't even know what then we'll get your apple watch edition in there or something i like
01:16:47 ◼ ► or or we say the premise here is that we're going to pick a representative of the product that we like
01:16:58 ◼ ► what's with the 5s too fifth generation ipod too let's keep going let's let's keep with these two
01:17:07 ◼ ► for now okay and let's keep going because we're still trying to work out what what the list list
01:17:14 ◼ ► even is even supposed to show yeah so i uh i was gonna say the original mac and the macbook air should
01:17:20 ◼ ► go on i agree with the macbook air for sure well sure that was me putting your thing on the list
01:17:29 ◼ ► yeah i agree with them okay for sure but here's here's my counter right would you uh just obviously
01:17:35 ◼ ► you've already put on this so i feel like i know the answer but original mac over imac g3
01:17:40 ◼ ► yeah why yeah i i feel like okay to use your ipod and iphone argument especially the iphone argument
01:17:52 ◼ ► it changed everything it changed everything for apple it changed everything for the entire computer
01:17:59 ◼ ► industry the graphical interface and that shape is iconic it is the kind of computer that belongs in a
01:18:06 ◼ ► museum so does the g3 it's true but the original mac and and it's got personality it was the boot up
01:18:14 ◼ ► icon forever it represents the mac in a way that i would say even now it that shape that classic shape
01:18:24 ◼ ► whether it's the original mac or the se 30 or you know what are the classic that shape represents the mac
01:18:30 ◼ ► in a way that the imac g3 doesn't even though the imac g3 is also an iconic and important product
01:18:46 ◼ ► i think so my feeling is that the mac has so many varied shapes that it deserves more place in the
01:18:55 ◼ ► monument because there are so many different representations of the mac i you know that i'm
01:19:02 ◼ ► but then again i'm a mac person and i remember how important those classic macs were and my first mac was
01:19:07 ◼ ► a classic shaped mac it was an se so for me i think that that that whole all-in-one i think it goes
01:19:23 ◼ ► classic original mac design right the iphone 5 one of your things was its design wise the closest to
01:19:32 ◼ ► what we have today right which one out of the mac and the g3 is closest to what we have today do you
01:19:39 ◼ ► think that's that is not my argument though closest to what we have today is not my argument okay so
01:19:44 ◼ ► what is my argument is that i like the flat design better and they brought it back if they hadn't brought
01:19:47 ◼ ► it back and we were still using the curvy bars of soap i would still say the iphone 5 okay so
01:19:53 ◼ ► because i think it's a better design do you prefer the original mac to the g3 as a piece of iconic
01:20:00 ◼ ► design i do absolutely okay absolutely it's it's more compact it's less bulbous and and and deep and all
01:20:08 ◼ ► of those things and it's kind of adorable uh and it's meant to be picked up with a handle the there's a
01:20:14 ◼ ► handle on the g3 imac don't pick it up like it's it's very heavy and all that but but this is what
01:20:19 ◼ ► i'm saying is the other difference here is all ipods look the same other than the ipod touch which
01:20:24 ◼ ► looks like an iphone all iphones look the same macs don't look the same they're very different and
01:20:32 ◼ ► that's why when i'm thinking about depictions i kind of want to depict some different macs because
01:20:36 ◼ ► they're they they are very different shapes the imac g3 does not look like a modern mac nor does
01:20:43 ◼ ► the original imac neither of them looks like a modern mac the macbook air has to carry that the
01:20:48 ◼ ► macbook air is the representative of that i mean it's the mac um really right the laptop from 20 from 2010
01:20:55 ◼ ► on yeah yeah the mac the mac was the original mac from 84 until 97 and then the imac was the mac from
01:21:05 ◼ ► 97 until you know the early 2000s if not mid-2000s and then the the the eventually the macbook air
01:21:13 ◼ ► became the definitive mac and has been for the last 15 years for sure and i'm not arguing i'm just
01:21:19 ◼ ► see from your perspective the original mac passes the same test for the mac as the iphone 5 does for the
01:21:25 ◼ ► iphone like for for the way you're thinking about this like what is the best representation of this
01:21:30 ◼ ► product i feel like i feel like there are the most iconic designs but i think that the problem with the
01:21:37 ◼ ► mac is that there are so many different shapes of mac the mac how many shapes of iphone have there been
01:21:43 ◼ ► you could argue one right and then it's all about like the sides being curved or not but they're all
01:21:50 ◼ ► just rectangular slabs the five is a little taller than the four how many shapes of mac have there been
01:21:56 ◼ ► dozens dozens of shapes because computers fundamentally take up more space don't have to fit in a pocket
01:22:03 ◼ ► all of those things and so i think the original mac is an iconic original design just like
01:22:09 ◼ ► yes the original ipod kind of ushered that era in but i'm you know i'm willing to go but but that's
01:22:16 ◼ ► with the if you talk about the mac being more refined later like the ipod was refined in the
01:22:20 ◼ ► fifth generation i'll take i'll agree with that but only so far like they made compact all-in-one macs
01:22:27 ◼ ► like the original mac for a while and some of them are really awful and ugly like the color classic
01:22:40 ◼ ► but you could put the classic in here it's just a little slightly curvier and slightly flattery you
01:22:46 ◼ ► can put the se in here that's got that kind of i don't like the my color classic i don't like what
01:22:51 ◼ ► it looks pinstripe design the color classic is bad the the regular classic looks looks fine the first
01:22:56 ◼ ► classic um the se is a great look se se 30 and then there's the original i i i just kind of feel like
01:23:04 ◼ ► there needs to be an original style compact mac on on the list what model it is actually doesn't
01:23:08 ◼ ► matter to me at all that it's the original is mostly kind of a default because it's a little bit simpler
01:23:14 ◼ ► but it could be a later model too but i i just feel like that shape no no no if we're doing this is the
01:23:20 ◼ ► original like i just think that's the one okay um i just had a thought i'm so happy that i am on leave
01:23:26 ◼ ► for the follow-up for this episode oh yeah it's gonna be great yeah i'm happy i don't have to deal
01:23:32 ◼ ► with the fallout of this i'll send i'll send it i'll send it all to you and i'll just immediately
01:23:39 ◼ ► archive it uh because my baby will care more about uh i care more about my baby than the original i'll
01:23:44 ◼ ► save it for your first episode back and then we'll do the fall that might actually be pretty funny if
01:23:48 ◼ ► you did that um all right let's look at where we are right now right we have a list of five products
01:23:56 ◼ ► we have the ipod fifth gen the iphone 5 the original mac and the macbook air all right so let's
01:24:03 ◼ ► uh to me i don't even really feel like i need to argue the macbook air at all i don't think that there
01:24:20 ◼ ► well the ipad yeah and you could be taking apple's oldest continuous product the mac and
01:24:31 ◼ ► sort of bisecting its eras into kind of original era and modern era and then you'd have an ipod an
01:24:46 ◼ ► i agree i agree i my only my so here's the thing i think the goal here is we're going to showcase
01:24:53 ◼ ► these products if the brief was that it's going to be a person who is using apple products that's a
01:25:02 ◼ ► different that's a different sculpture right yeah and that that one might have a vision pro
01:25:08 ◼ ► and an apple watch and you know we'd have to argue about which earbuds go in and all that but that's
01:25:12 ◼ ► not what it is it's about the products and i think the apple watch is not because at its core you know
01:25:20 ◼ ► it's just that round direct watch and like the ultra is a little more interesting but i just i
01:25:27 ◼ ► wouldn't i wouldn't do it i think i would put the ipad on before that yeah it is an accessory
01:25:37 ◼ ► an art it's the chart that just keeps going on breaks through the statue and continues into the
01:25:42 ◼ ► yeah yeah services can't you can't be in the monument that's not your place you yeah yeah maybe
01:25:49 ◼ ► we could make the monument a service maybe you have to become a member to see the monument
01:25:52 ◼ ► that's fair that's matt it's called moss monument as a service it i know you don't like the original
01:26:00 ◼ ► argument but i i i think i i think i would want the original ipad on this list i'm fine with that
01:26:24 ◼ ► sure i'm i'm okay with that so things that we're leaving out stuff like the vision pro the apple
01:26:32 ◼ ► pencil airpods are not on here which i'm fine with um the ipod mini didn't make it and no apple watch
01:26:42 ◼ ► made it i think i feel pretty good about this list yeah i should specify because we've been arguing
01:26:50 ◼ ► the point i would depict the unibody uh tapered 2010 macbook air yes not the one with the fold down door
01:27:04 ◼ ► correct which is not tapered and weird and one of its cores shut down when it was slight when it was
01:27:12 ◼ ► room temperature and not you weren't in a meat locker my brother got a skin burn from that
01:27:16 ◼ ► macbook air mm-hmm on his leg it's not great i think he was playing a video game uh-huh that would do it
01:27:24 ◼ ► that he had that bugged him something like that replaced out twice on apple care because it just
01:27:30 ◼ ► kept it was a mess yeah i was a wrong computer i've i've told you my story before i had west facing
01:27:35 ◼ ► windows at mac world at that point and uh in the afternoon the sun would shine in my office and it
01:27:41 ◼ ► would get warmer and the mac would just macbook air would just stop working because it would shut down
01:27:46 ◼ ► one of its two cores and it would get all janky and jerky and all that i literally couldn't use it
01:27:51 ◼ ► because it was too hot in my office but work great in a meat locker what's kind of incredible is like
01:27:56 ◼ ► the original macbook air wedge shape terrible first version then became the macbook well no the first
01:28:02 ◼ ► version wasn't a wedge the first version wasn't a wedge it was the second version that was the the
01:28:07 ◼ ► one i remember going to the event it was a town hall yes and they came out with the 11 and the 13
01:28:12 ◼ ► and it was the it was the unibody wedge and i was like oh they took the macbook air which was i loved
01:28:18 ◼ ► the original macbook air design because it was so light but it was just not a good computer and i
01:28:23 ◼ ► remember walking out of that town hall briefing and thinking oh they got it now yeah it wasn't a wedge
01:28:28 ◼ ► but it but it was kind of roundy and silver like it looked they look similar sure but the point i was
01:28:34 ◼ ► going to make is like the original macbook air became the macbook air and then the 12 inch macbook
01:28:40 ◼ ► became the new macbook air like it it took another go and they like could could make these computers that
01:28:51 ◼ ► um yeah i think i feel pretty good about this this is the ipod fifth gen the iphone 5 the original mac
01:29:02 ◼ ► and we'll mention the accessories ipod fifth gen with earbuds yep the iphone 5 the original mac with
01:29:09 ◼ ► the mouse and you put the keyboard in there too but you know it's all part of it but i want that mouse
01:29:14 ◼ ► in there the 2010 macbook air and the original ipad as our monument of the most so this will say
01:29:23 ◼ ► underneath that on a little plaque the most important apple products and maybe say like mixed media
01:29:30 ◼ ► or something you know this is the way that the sculpture is being put together maybe maybe i
01:29:36 ◼ ► don't even know about most important it might just be like we may just let let the audience decide what
01:29:42 ◼ ► the meaning of this is now that we've this has to be called something you know like the the the chapter
01:29:47 ◼ ► for example it needs a name and we have been calling it most important for this entire episode
01:29:53 ◼ ► jason we gotta live or die by the sword you know what i mean like we have to call it something and
01:29:58 ◼ ► and we're calling it this and then we'll just have to deal with we'll just have to deal with it you
01:30:02 ◼ ► know i feel good calling this the the most important apple products honestly like i feel i feel good
01:30:10 ◼ ► about it i feel good it'll get a colloquial name anyway and they won't call it that they'll call it
01:30:14 ◼ ► whatever they call it my my let the people decide i think we both maybe would have an asterisk on this
01:30:20 ◼ ► list and maybe yours would be the ipod and mine would be the iphone where i think maybe without the
01:30:26 ◼ ► other one we probably would have put a different product on here right like i think i would put the
01:30:31 ◼ ► original iphone i think you maybe put the original ipod yep yeah but i think that's a good these are
01:30:38 ◼ ► good compromises for good reasons as to why we went with the fifth gen for both yeah incredible i think
01:30:46 ◼ ► so take us home jason snow you're the host of the show we did it i've really enjoyed being a guest no
01:30:51 ◼ ► you you you gotta do it you gotta you gotta do it all right take us home because you can promise
01:30:56 ◼ ► things that i'll have to deliver that's a great point if you would like to send us in your feedback
01:31:01 ◼ ► your follow-up your questions your suggestions the places that we got this wrong if you would like to
01:31:07 ◼ ► make this out of clay and send us an image impossible go to upgradefeedback.com and you can do all of
01:31:13 ◼ ► that i want to thank our members to support us every week of upgrade plus i'd like to give an
01:31:17 ◼ ► additional thank you to our members because you continue to support me while i'm on paternity leave
01:31:21 ◼ ► so thank you so much uh i want i have a couple of other products that i want to mention and we're
01:31:26 ◼ ► going to do that in upgrade plus today you can go to getupgradeplus.com you get longer ad-free
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01:31:36 ◼ ► us with our hands on our faces for this entire episode as we try and make the the the decisions that
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