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Upgrade

556: This Photo Is Not 2000 Years Old

 

00:00:00   From Relay, this is Upgrade, episode number 556, recorded March the 24th, 2025.

00:00:14   This week, brought to you by Google Gemini, Factor, and ExpressVPN.

00:00:19   I am one of your regular hosts, Jason Snell, and of course, Mike Hurley remains on leave.

00:00:26   And so, the next up in the parade of guest stars on Upgrade is Relay, co-founder, and co-host of Connected, and Mac Power Users, and probably other things, too.

00:00:40   It's Stephen Hackett. Welcome back, Stephen Hackett.

00:00:42   Hey, Jason. It is always fun to be on Upgrade.

00:00:45   It's good to have you back. I am calling in all my favors for this leave, so thank you for joining.

00:00:56   Of course.

00:00:57   And finally, somebody not named John, so that's good.

00:01:01   That's right. Had to break the John's trick.

00:01:03   There are a lot of John's out there, but that's over now. It's over now. It's non-John's. It's four non-John's. Something like that.

00:01:10   All right. Snell Talk time. I want to do two Snell Talk questions, Stephen.

00:01:15   Two.

00:01:16   Ooh.

00:01:16   Because they're interrelated, and they're kind of follow-up, but they're kind of Snell Talk.

00:01:20   So, the first one is from Listener Casey, who says, sorry, Listener Casey, who says, I've always been super cagey about the exact town I live in.

00:01:36   Hashtag don't be creepy.

00:01:37   And rather than just say, I live in the nearest city, Richmond, Jason regularly and willfully brings up Mill Valley on his shows.

00:01:45   Am I being too paranoid, or is Jason being too forthright, or is it both?

00:01:48   We have a Hill Valley question.

00:01:52   Well, okay. So, first off, it's not really accurate for me to say I live in San Francisco.

00:01:57   I could say the Bay Area.

00:01:58   The truth is, I feel like I'm not really worried about OPSEC, about operational security, because I bought my house in 1999, and therefore all public records of my address are on the internet.

00:02:16   I mean, please don't be creepy, please don't come to my house, but, like, I can't, it's just like how I will always get spam email to certain email addresses, because those email addresses have been out there since the 90s.

00:02:30   Like, I could hide it, but, and Mill Valley's a big town, and the Bay Area, you know, I just decided to be precise, especially for that.

00:02:39   I think Casey is smart, actually. He lives in a metro area that's got smaller cities as well as Richmond. I think he doesn't need to be any more specific than Richmond, but I, you know, I don't know.

00:02:53   For whatever reason, I just decided saying San Francisco is inaccurate, because I don't live in San Francisco, and saying Bay Area is accurate, but super broad, and sometimes the context comes up where I talk about my town, and I don't have a problem with it, and it's too late.

00:03:06   The horse is out of the barn, as we used to say back up on the ranch.

00:03:10   Yeah, I'm looking at you in Find My right now.

00:03:13   You're in the garage.

00:03:14   Yeah.

00:03:15   Yeah, we had a FaceTime conversation with my daughter. She calls us sometimes, and then just, we talk to her while she drives home from work, and I brought up, while she was doing that, I brought up Find My, and we watched her dot drive home.

00:03:32   She says, oh, I'm home, but she's still miles away. She just wants to get off the phone with you. That's a real...

00:03:37   Believe me, she is not the one who wants to get off the phone.

00:03:40   Now I'm looking at Casey on Find My.

00:03:44   Yeah, we know where he lives.

00:03:46   Yeah, we can tell people, but I'm not going to do that, because I think he's right to just say Richmond. That's good enough.

00:03:51   You know, he wants me to come do his, like, fiber and ethernet through his house with him.

00:03:56   I heard that, because you're a fiber expert now.

00:03:58   Yeah.

00:03:59   Run away.

00:04:00   Can I break some news on Upgrade?

00:04:02   Yep.

00:04:02   Breaking news from Stephen.

00:04:04   I'm going to visit Casey in October, I think.

00:04:07   Whoa!

00:04:08   And we're going to do a long weekend and do his network.

00:04:11   By long, you are referring specifically to the runs of fiber in his house, right?

00:04:15   That's right.

00:04:16   Yeah.

00:04:16   It's going to be a gigabit weekend.

00:04:18   10 gigabit weekend, actually.

00:04:20   Stephen and Casey's 10 gigabit fiber weekend.

00:04:24   That's right.

00:04:24   Wow.

00:04:25   If it were a different time, I'd vlog it, you know, if it was 2017, but it's not.

00:04:30   And I'd have to blare at Casey's entire house, as we're talking about.

00:04:34   Yeah.

00:04:34   We don't want to do that.

00:04:35   There you go.

00:04:36   We don't want to do that.

00:04:37   He says he doesn't even do pictures.

00:04:38   I guess the only pictures of Casey's house that are public are that one bedroom where he records.

00:04:44   Mm-hmm.

00:04:45   And that's it.

00:04:46   That's it.

00:04:47   People can drink in that.

00:04:48   Go back to the YouTube version of when he was on Upgrade and just drink in Casey's guest

00:04:53   bedroom slash office slash recording studio.

00:04:56   Very, very generic.

00:04:59   It may even be a set.

00:05:00   Like, you know, I mean, who knows?

00:05:02   You know, it could be, he could be somewhere else and that's just all fake.

00:05:05   It could be.

00:05:07   I mean, it's not because it's Casey.

00:05:10   It's not.

00:05:10   Casey is Casey is Casey.

00:05:13   That's for people who are wondering like, what's Casey Liss like in real life?

00:05:17   You know, that's like, that's Casey.

00:05:20   Casey is Casey.

00:05:21   He is a completely genuine person who is pretty much exactly the Casey you hear on podcasts.

00:05:26   I do have a second Snell talk.

00:05:28   This is from Pat B.

00:05:30   And he writes, Jason, I was shocked when you mentioned Mill Valley and didn't include the

00:05:35   most famous resident I remember, BJ Honeycutt from MASH.

00:05:40   Now, MASH, okay.

00:05:42   MASH was a TV show popular in the 70s and the 80s about a bunch of doctors at a surgical

00:05:51   hospital in Korea, but it was sort of a commentary more on Vietnam, but it was set in Korea.

00:05:55   It ran longer than the Korean war by far.

00:05:58   If you plot out the events of the MASH TV series, it couldn't have happened because the series

00:06:03   was so popular.

00:06:04   It lasted far longer than any American war in Korea lasted.

00:06:10   But BJ was a character added a few years in, played by Mike Farrell, and he always would

00:06:17   write letters home to his wife, Peg, in Mill Valley, California, which, and he would rhapsodize

00:06:23   about how wonderful it was and how he wanted to go back there.

00:06:26   And honestly, that's most of what I knew about Mill Valley when I moved here was, oh yeah,

00:06:31   BJ Honeycutt is from there.

00:06:33   And somebody suggested at one point that just like they've got that statue of like Captain

00:06:37   Kirk in Iowa, that somebody should erect a statue of BJ Honeycutt in Mill Valley.

00:06:43   And at one point there was literally a public comment period for what they should put in the

00:06:49   plaza in downtown Mill Valley.

00:06:52   Wow.

00:06:53   And I said, you know what, I'm going to do it.

00:06:55   And I wrote in, we should do a statue of BJ Honeycutt from MASH.

00:06:58   And they came out with a report and they said, one person said BJ Honeycutt from MASH.

00:07:03   And that was the end of that.

00:07:04   But I feel validated.

00:07:07   And thanks to Pat, I guess.

00:07:10   Pat should probably applaud my gesture.

00:07:14   But also hot tubs were invented here.

00:07:18   I'll throw that one in.

00:07:19   I'm mountain biking.

00:07:19   Those are the Marin County and Mill Valley contributions to society.

00:07:24   Hot tubs and mountain biking.

00:07:26   Nice to get in a hot tub after you've done a lot of mountain biking.

00:07:29   But you like biking.

00:07:30   You like biking.

00:07:30   I do.

00:07:31   Mountain biking was entirely invented on the slopes of Mount Tam behind my house and my town.

00:07:35   Yeah.

00:07:36   That's awesome.

00:07:37   That's really cool.

00:07:39   Obviously, we have Elvis in Memphis.

00:07:41   Oh, man.

00:07:42   I mean, that's next level famous.

00:07:44   Yeah.

00:07:46   And I guess after that, like, Justin Timberlake, probably.

00:07:50   Although, really, he's from a suburb.

00:07:51   Not really Memphis.

00:07:53   Well, yeah, but close enough.

00:07:55   But if you talk about Memphis contributions to the world beyond Elvis, it's like the blues,

00:07:58   Delta blues, right?

00:08:00   And it's a downer, but it's been turned into something better, which is the MLK assassination,

00:08:06   obviously, which is now the Civil Rights Museum, which is a spectacular site.

00:08:11   And right next to Central Barbecue, which is really a contribution to society, too, frankly.

00:08:16   It's true.

00:08:17   Different types of contribution.

00:08:21   I don't know if we've talked about this, and we won't go into any details, but I'm anticipating

00:08:25   avidly my next trip to Memphis.

00:08:27   I'm looking forward to it.

00:08:28   It is such a treat to get to go to Memphis a couple of times a year.

00:08:34   So I'll be creeping on you before too long.

00:08:37   I know where you live.

00:08:38   That's true.

00:08:39   You do know where I live.

00:08:41   Yeah, so we did a Snell talk.

00:08:44   We did two.

00:08:44   Yeah, so let's move on to fatherly advice.

00:08:46   This is a segment I invented.

00:08:48   I even did the stupid chapter art for it, in which I ask, have people figured out yet

00:08:54   that every single person who's been a guest star on this is a parent, is a father?

00:08:57   And so fatherly advice is...

00:09:00   Anyway, I've given it away now.

00:09:01   Stephen, do you have any words of wisdom or observations to impart to your professional

00:09:07   partner, Mike Hurley, here early in the episode where he's probably still listening?

00:09:13   Still listening.

00:09:14   I mean, if he made it through the riveting No Valley talk.

00:09:17   He loves that stuff.

00:09:18   What are you talking about?

00:09:19   BJ, honeycomb, mash?

00:09:21   He could just sit there.

00:09:22   That's what he should do while he's, like, rocking and the baby is sleeping.

00:09:25   He should just watch old episodes of MASH.

00:09:27   MASH.

00:09:28   MASH is great.

00:09:29   It's a great show.

00:09:30   I said this on that analog episode, but it's definitely my, like, go-to advice, really for

00:09:35   anybody who's a new parent, is, like, it's so easy to lose sort of the contact you have

00:09:41   with your spouse, especially in those early days.

00:09:43   And I think if your spouse is a mom, like, it's a very hard season, or can be a very hard

00:09:53   season, very complicated season of life.

00:09:56   And so make sure they're doing okay.

00:09:58   And it's easy to, for everything in the household to revolve around the baby, and that's not wrong,

00:10:04   but your spouse is going to be there once your kids are out the door, right?

00:10:09   It's something that y'all are experiencing now.

00:10:12   That's right.

00:10:12   All the kids do is grow up and leave you, but you're...

00:10:15   That's right.

00:10:16   And the plan is for your spouse to still be there.

00:10:18   So continue to invest in that relationship.

00:10:20   Yes.

00:10:21   Continue to make it the primary relationship, and it'll be good.

00:10:25   Parenting is a team sport, is what I would say.

00:10:31   I mean, sometimes it isn't.

00:10:32   Sometimes you're forced to do it alone.

00:10:34   But if you are in a relationship and you're the parents and you've got the kids, the thing

00:10:41   to remember is you're in this together and your family is now you and your partner and

00:10:48   the kid or kids.

00:10:51   And it does change the dynamic, but the fact is that, you know, I think it's also an opportunity

00:10:55   for bonding and a growth of the relationship because now you're not just connected to each

00:11:00   other, but you're connected to this other person and you're responsible for their life and growth

00:11:06   and health and all those things.

00:11:08   And that's another point for you to connect as people and, like, become actually closer

00:11:14   together because you are now, you know, the team with this screaming child that has entered

00:11:22   your house.

00:11:23   So it's a beautiful thing.

00:11:27   Well, thank you for the fatherly advice.

00:11:28   I appreciate it.

00:11:29   Of course.

00:11:30   I didn't know how this was going to go, but it's gone pretty good.

00:11:32   Everybody, I've not yet had somebody just say pass, although I'm worried a little bit

00:11:36   that Scott McNulty is going to come on here and say, don't do it.

00:11:39   It's like, it's too late, Scott.

00:11:43   He did it.

00:11:43   They both did it.

00:11:44   And they're there.

00:11:45   Mike and Adina are now just, they got a baby.

00:11:48   It's great.

00:11:49   Let's do some follow-up.

00:11:51   Follow-up.

00:11:52   Thank you.

00:11:53   Sorry, wrong show.

00:11:54   Wrong show.

00:11:54   Very wrong show, but that's great.

00:11:57   I like it.

00:11:57   You're just repeating what I say.

00:11:58   Follow-up.

00:12:00   We talked about, last week, about bending phones, and John Syracuse and I said, maybe

00:12:09   Dr. Drang could tell us the details.

00:12:11   It was really, I was tossing it off, but the moment I said his name, I thought, oh, I've

00:12:15   summoned him.

00:12:16   He's going to appear.

00:12:18   And he did, Dr. Drang, the internet's favorite pseudonymous snowman slash mechanical engineer,

00:12:26   structural engineer, structural engineer.

00:12:30   I think we got his title wrong, too.

00:12:32   And nothing makes Dr. Drang more angry than, well, not angry, vexed than referring to somebody

00:12:38   as the wrong kind of engineer.

00:12:40   He is a structural engineer.

00:12:42   Yes.

00:12:42   Yeah.

00:12:43   Y'all may have said material engineer.

00:12:45   Yeah.

00:12:46   Or, you know, he-

00:12:47   He's not.

00:12:48   He says that he's not.

00:12:48   He's a structural engineer.

00:12:49   He is the guy, for people who don't know, literally, he has a blog post where he was walking

00:12:55   somewhere and a light post had fallen over, and he was like, oh, let me at it.

00:12:59   Let me see what happened with this light post, because that's kind of what his job was.

00:13:03   He's retired now, so he has more time to listen to our dumb podcasts and correct us about

00:13:08   math.

00:13:09   So, he wrote a piece called Simple Phone Bending, where he explained sort of a simplification

00:13:16   of the idea of, if you make the phone bigger, how much more bendable is it?

00:13:21   And this is what he wrote.

00:13:24   So, if the beam is lengthened by 10%, which is about how much longer an iPhone Pro Max is

00:13:28   compared to an iPhone Pro, the moment will increase by 10%.

00:13:32   And if we make the reasonable assumption that the side rails of a max-sized phone will have

00:13:35   the same cross-section as side rails of a non-max phone, the bending stress will also

00:13:40   increase by 10%.

00:13:41   Not a lot.

00:13:42   He says it's not impossible that they actually looked at the size, because remember, the iPhone

00:13:45   Plus is rumored to be bigger than the Pro, but not as big as the Pro Max.

00:13:49   They may have looked at that gradient from Pro size to Pro Max size and looked at the stress

00:13:55   on the side rails and said, that's too far, that's out of our zone of comfort, so we'll

00:14:01   back it off.

00:14:01   Keeping in mind also that when they back it off, they're backing off the size of the battery,

00:14:05   they're backing off the size of the screen, all of those other decisions that have to go

00:14:08   in it.

00:14:09   But Mark Ehrman's report was, they looked at a Pro Max size and said, nope, it's too bendy.

00:14:14   And Dr. Drang is like, eh, you know, maybe, but there's a lot going on there.

00:14:19   But I just love, he, you know, I took a year of college calculus, Stephen.

00:14:24   I look at his site and I am completely baffled by the map.

00:14:32   I love Dr. Drang, I love the site.

00:14:34   I love him, yeah, you just chatted with him, he's a good pal, and we do, we love him as

00:14:43   a human being and also as a man who does lots of math, so we don't have to.

00:14:48   Thank you, Dr. Drang.

00:14:49   Which is impressive for a snowman, their arms are just sticks.

00:14:52   I know, right?

00:14:52   He's doing, he must be using PCALC, that's probably what he's doing.

00:14:55   That's the power of the pseudonym, yeah, it's all Siri, oh no!

00:14:58   Yeah, I do, I do want to highlight something you said about, you know, if you back off the

00:15:03   size, you're also backing off battery and all the other things.

00:15:06   And when we're talking about a slim phone, obviously the first thought is, well, what is it going

00:15:12   to do to the battery life?

00:15:13   And Gurman, I think some others have reported that Apple has some combination of technologies

00:15:18   that are going to mean the battery life in this phone will be comparable to the others,

00:15:21   which is really interesting to me.

00:15:23   But it really just goes to show like how complicated it must be to design iPhones year after year

00:15:31   after year.

00:15:32   And then they really, over the however many years it's been, 18 years of the iPhone, really

00:15:39   very few misses.

00:15:41   And I mean, the 6 Plus was bendy and didn't have enough RAM.

00:15:46   Like, there have been phones that aren't as good as others, but it is so impressive to

00:15:52   me that they can do this on such a regular cycle.

00:15:54   And they're working on all these complicated problems that, quite frankly, seem impossible

00:15:59   to someone like me to figure out.

00:16:01   Yeah, I, we'll talk about this maybe a little bit later, because there's a lot of discussion

00:16:09   of sort of where Apple is, is succeeding and failing, let's put it that way, right now.

00:16:15   I, I always say, so like we were talking about this AI stuff, and there's more of that, that

00:16:20   we're about to talk about.

00:16:21   And what I always want to say and try to say is, I'm not inside at Apple, it is, it is a

00:16:28   black box to me.

00:16:29   It is complex.

00:16:31   And having managed organizations that are a fraction of the size of Apple, or even a part

00:16:38   of Apple, I, even from that, I know how complex this stuff is.

00:16:43   And so I don't want to understate the complexity of the job they do.

00:16:48   They are one of the world's largest companies.

00:16:50   They are a high tech company that is pushing forward with this technology.

00:16:54   And it's only them and a handful of competitors that are even doing that.

00:16:58   And the people who work there, it's easy to lose sight of the fact that what they do is

00:17:03   an enormous engineering, R&D design, all of that stuff.

00:17:09   It's an enormous effort.

00:17:10   And just doing, looking at Dr. Drang's math about the iPhone plus or iPhone air is a part

00:17:18   of that is, is look, they are balancing battery and battery systems engineering and their own

00:17:25   chip designs, which is an enormous undertaking and all the other parts that go in there and,

00:17:31   you know, building their own modem.

00:17:32   how does that affect the power?

00:17:33   Like it's, it is always an enormous undertaking and they have to ship enormous numbers of

00:17:39   units.

00:17:39   And that's the other thing I always say when there's like a, somebody gets a, a bad iPhone

00:17:44   on week one and they're like, Oh, the iPhone is lousy.

00:17:47   It's like, there's no way there aren't bad iPhones because they make so many of them that

00:17:51   at 0.01% failure rate, there are a huge number of failures out there.

00:17:56   And that's why you can just take it back and get a different one.

00:17:59   But like it is worth, again, the, we're going to criticize what is worth criticizing about

00:18:05   Apple, but that doesn't mean we don't appreciate and shouldn't appreciate kind of the amazing,

00:18:10   uh, run that they do and the incredible difficulty level of all the stuff that they do.

00:18:15   And most of it, they get right.

00:18:16   Right.

00:18:16   Because there hasn't been a, I mean, the, the biggest phone disaster in the last 15 years

00:18:21   was that, that Samsung phone that caught fire, but like, yeah, Apple has managed with

00:18:26   all of its little gates here and there to be pretty solid at all this stuff while pushing

00:18:30   it forward.

00:18:30   You're not evacuating an airplane.

00:18:32   So you're, you're doing okay.

00:18:35   Solid, pretty solid.

00:18:36   Uh, the AI fallout continues as well.

00:18:39   It's a little bit more follow-up.

00:18:40   Um, Mark Gurman reported that Siri has been taken away from John Gianandria and given to Mike

00:18:47   Rockwell, who is moving into Craig Federighi's software group, Mike Rockwell, who is in charge

00:18:52   of Vision Pro is keeping Vision OS, the report says, but will leave Vision hardware behind to

00:18:59   one of his lieutenants.

00:19:01   Basically, Rockwell is apparently a longtime critic of Siri.

00:19:05   And I don't know if you remember this report, but I remember this report that originally the

00:19:10   Vision Pro was going to be more Siri focused and that Rockwell got so frustrated with, uh,

00:19:17   the, the lack of ability to make Siri good enough for Vision Pro and that he tried to basically

00:19:23   grab it and influence it and was told that he needed to keep his hands off of it.

00:19:28   And that's one of the reasons Vision Pro is not, uh, as Siri focused is that they wanted it

00:19:33   to be, um, well, that guy is in charge of Siri now.

00:19:36   So yeah, I think I, I, I, I do wonder part of me thinks about the dog that caught the car.

00:19:43   Like, all right, you, you got it.

00:19:45   Let's see what you can do with it.

00:19:47   You've been complaining about it all this time, but, um, it is a visible change that I think

00:19:56   suggests that Apple is very much aware that the Siri situation is unacceptable.

00:20:01   Also, I don't know what you think about this.

00:20:04   My vibe from this too, is that John Gianandrea seems to be much more professorly and researchy

00:20:10   and not maybe product shippy and Rockwell seems to be a product ship guy and you need that to

00:20:16   ship products.

00:20:17   I think that's, I think that's right.

00:20:20   I think the biggest thing for me in all of this is that Siri is now under Craig Federighi.

00:20:27   And it's sort of mind blowing to me that it, that wasn't true before that the guy and

00:20:33   for better or for worse, who's in charge of basically all Apple software, Siri was outside

00:20:39   of his, at least direct reporting path.

00:20:41   And now that it is folded in, like, we'll see how it goes.

00:20:46   I agree with you.

00:20:47   Mike Rockwell caught the car and a bunch of people, a bunch of people have worked on

00:20:54   Siri over the years and it's still the state that it's in.

00:20:57   And maybe he's the person or, you know, we'll bring in the people to, to get it where it needs

00:21:04   to be, but that's a really big task.

00:21:06   And I hope a couple of things, one, I hope that he's actually given the time to turn it

00:21:11   around.

00:21:12   I hope that there are not expectations with an Apple that, Hey, this is going to be fixed

00:21:16   by iOS 20, you know, in a year and a half or whatever, this is going to take some time.

00:21:21   So I hope that just for Mike Rockwell, it seems like a nice guy.

00:21:24   Like hopefully he's not held accountable for something that's going to take a while.

00:21:28   But two, I hope that through the reporting through Craig Federighi, that Siri can be a bit more

00:21:38   streamlined with the rest of the OS.

00:21:40   And I mean that in two ways, I think, first of all, from the beginning, Siri has always

00:21:45   been a layer on top of iOS or later on Mac OS, et cetera, right?

00:21:49   You hit the button, it does its own thing.

00:21:52   And then you go back to what you were doing.

00:21:54   And part of this promise of a Siri that is more integrated with your data through app intent

00:22:02   is going to be able to do things for you.

00:22:04   Like that was really never going to work if Siri was just an overlay.

00:22:07   Siri has to go deeper.

00:22:09   But two, like, again, for better or for worse, Federighi's over all of this stuff.

00:22:15   And they have done a pretty good job shipping stuff on a regular basis.

00:22:21   Now, again, just like the iPhone thing we're talking about a second ago, there are examples,

00:22:25   right?

00:22:25   A recent one is messages in the cloud, the feature that syncs your iMessage stuff and your history

00:22:30   with your iCloud account that shipped pretty late.

00:22:33   But in my experience, it's been really good.

00:22:37   And so they took the time, they got it right.

00:22:39   And hopefully that is going to be instilled in the Siri team, because clearly someone in

00:22:47   that organization has thought, well, this is this is OK enough.

00:22:52   I mean, if German is to be believed, they were debating shipping the thing that they just

00:22:58   delayed until very recently.

00:23:00   That means someone in the company was lobbying for it to go out the door.

00:23:03   And I think a combination of Rockwell and Federighi, like that's going to be insulation from that

00:23:09   sort of thing happening.

00:23:10   And when they ship this, I hope and trust that it will be better than it would have been otherwise.

00:23:16   But if I were Mike Rockwell, I would have some heartburn right now, I think.

00:23:20   Sure.

00:23:20   They had a it's not good enough moment, clearly, where somebody was like, let's ship it.

00:23:27   And somebody else said it's just not good enough.

00:23:29   And I don't know.

00:23:30   I mean, you could you could argue that that argument has not won the day in some previous

00:23:37   Apple intelligence features where they've shipped it and it hasn't been good enough.

00:23:41   And this one, you know, is even more sensitive if it's using user data, if it's using your

00:23:46   apps, if it doesn't work right.

00:23:48   That's not great.

00:23:49   I wanted to mention Joe Rosenstiel wrote a piece last week on Six Colors about Siri and

00:23:54   Spotlight that I thought was I mean, he's asking for a very specific thing in some ways because

00:24:00   he uses type to Siri.

00:24:01   He said, because otherwise I'm just going to yell at Siri.

00:24:04   So I type instead.

00:24:06   But he said, we're often trained to do natural language things for search engines.

00:24:13   And he basically said typing into a search engine, you get you get a bunch of results ranked and

00:24:19   it usually includes the one you want.

00:24:20   But if you type to Siri, first off, like regular Siri, your phrasing matters.

00:24:26   Like if you're trying to ask how to do something in mail and you don't say how it tries to do

00:24:31   something in mail for you instead, which is not great.

00:24:34   But one of the things that I thought was very perceptive about that piece is that part of

00:24:38   the underlying rot here is that Spotlight is also maybe not up to speed.

00:24:46   And and you want a lot of your personal data is being indexed and searched by Spotlight.

00:24:52   But if you if you try to search in Spotlight, it's old, it's old.

00:24:57   Spotlight feels very old in the sense that it's not really making any assumptions about

00:25:02   your language that you're typing.

00:25:04   You really need to think about like old school search engine, get the exact words right.

00:25:08   And he's absolutely right.

00:25:10   Like and on top of that, it's the disunity of it where you've got two places that you can

00:25:16   instruct your device.

00:25:17   And one of them is sort of smart, but kind of dumb.

00:25:20   And the other one is super dumb, even though it knows everything, which is Spotlight.

00:25:23   And I looked at that and I thought, this is a great example of of how parts of Apple's

00:25:30   product line are not integrated properly because they're, I think, in different groups and different

00:25:36   fiefdoms, maybe.

00:25:37   And the biggest example of that that I can remember where I got a little a little peering

00:25:41   into this fact that like different parts of Apple do different things is when Workflow got

00:25:47   bought by Apple and turned into Shortcuts, we initially all thought that the OS team

00:25:54   bought Workflow because that would seem like the logical place to integrate system wide is

00:25:59   operating system.

00:26:00   And it turned out, no, the what I was told was that the operating system team didn't want

00:26:05   to buy it.

00:26:05   So the Siri team bought it.

00:26:08   And I thought, that seems, I mean, I get why it fits with Siri in a lot of ways, because

00:26:13   it's kind of automation and control stuff.

00:26:15   But like, what does it say that you've got parts of Apple that are in charge of your

00:26:21   operating system, not being interested in something, and then other parts of Apple that are also

00:26:25   sort of in charge of parts of your operating system wanting something to integrate?

00:26:29   Like, it's a bad, that was a, that was a red flag.

00:26:31   That was a bad sign.

00:26:32   I think it's good that they bought it, but I didn't like the fact that apparently part of

00:26:37   Apple wanted it and the other part didn't really want anything to do with it.

00:26:41   And maybe that's a reason why shortcuts has been kind of all over the place too.

00:26:46   I don't know.

00:26:47   It's weird.

00:26:48   I have one more piece of follow-up, which is from anonymous who wrote in and, and he said,

00:26:56   hi, Jason, regarding last week's episode with John and Apple potentially using an M series

00:27:01   server chip in a Mac pro.

00:27:02   I think this would make a lot of sense.

00:27:04   I used to work as an IC designer at Broadcom for RF SOC system on chip.

00:27:10   And I wanted to share, it's incredibly disruptive to do any variant of a chip, not only for the

00:27:15   additional design time, but all verification and testing down the line with the tight timelines

00:27:20   Apple has, it's probably a lot more efficient to drop in an M server chip.

00:27:25   So basically the idea here, and I think we've seen this with Apple, like Apple can only do

00:27:30   so much and every new chip variant, look, they're so good at reusing their chips in different

00:27:35   devices and plotting out that, that piece of, of information that I gave, uh, I've been

00:27:41   talking about for a few weeks now where I was talking to somebody involved in Apple's chip

00:27:44   stuff who said, every chip we design, we know what computer it's going in.

00:27:48   We know what device it's going in when we design it.

00:27:51   That's all part of the secret sauce of this is, is that they're aligned and the chips are

00:27:55   made for specific Apple products, not for a product line.

00:27:58   And this would follow from that, right?

00:28:00   Which is if they, if they want a high-end chip and they also are building future servers for

00:28:06   their private cloud compute, whether it's the high-end chip or it's just functions on a, a

00:28:12   pro chip or a max chip, they're probably trying to build one fewer chip, right?

00:28:20   Right.

00:28:20   They're just like, do we need to build a new chip for our servers or can we, whatever we need

00:28:26   to do for the servers, can we integrate that in another chip we're building?

00:28:30   Because they don't, they don't want to build five or six chips because they're not Intel.

00:28:34   They, they want, everyone has a huge cost and they are trying to target their specific, uh,

00:28:41   system.

00:28:41   So I think this is a good reminder.

00:28:42   Uh, I love hearing from people who have knowledge of how chip stuff works.

00:28:46   Cause I don't know like all the details of this stuff on the inside.

00:28:50   And I like being reminded, it takes a very long time.

00:28:53   The roadmap is long.

00:28:55   They're working in advance and this is a great data point that like every variation

00:28:58   is hard.

00:28:59   It's not like you can just knock off five M fours and sure.

00:29:04   Not break a sweat that no, it's actually very hard every single time.

00:29:07   Yeah.

00:29:08   It's all this work and it's the fabrication of those chips and you end up with bending and

00:29:13   like, it is very, so very complicated.

00:29:16   Um, I do, I do wonder about the thing of like, we know what computer it's going into.

00:29:21   Like that's how you get an M four and an iPad and a fanless MacBook air.

00:29:26   Right.

00:29:26   And when they've, as they've gone through, you know, as the iMac and the MacBook air, the

00:29:32   MacBook pro is they've redesigned the systems from Intel to Apple Silicon.

00:29:36   It's like, we've built this around Apple Silicon and you can see that as a, it's just like a

00:29:41   way to say it has Apple Silicon aside, but no, like we designed these at the same time and

00:29:46   we designed it.

00:29:46   Not only we didn't design the MacBook air just for the M two, but also the M three, the M four,

00:29:52   the M five, the M six, however long this design carries forward.

00:29:56   And that is a strength of Apple Silicon right until you get to the Mac pro.

00:30:01   And then it's like, well, you've designed this stuff to fit in a Mac studio or in a laptop.

00:30:05   And it means you leave a, potentially leave a lot on the table when it comes to a full desktop

00:30:11   tower machine.

00:30:12   And so, yeah, it's the Mac pro is such an interesting story when it comes to Apple Silicon, because

00:30:19   they don't have anything currently that really sets it apart.

00:30:24   And that, you know, makes people like John Syracuse and me to a degree, a little sad.

00:30:28   Yeah, I do.

00:30:29   A Mac studio is actually a great example.

00:30:31   I think where the cooling in the Mac studio is specifically designed to handle those max

00:30:35   class chips.

00:30:36   And they know that, and that's, for me, that's the question about the future of the Mac pro

00:30:39   is, are they looking at the cooling envelope of the Mac pro and saying there is something

00:30:44   we could put in there.

00:30:45   And that's, that's the great unanswered question about why the Mac pro didn't get the M three

00:30:49   ultra is the saddest thing.

00:30:53   And I know I talked about this with John.

00:30:54   The saddest thing is if June comes and they just say, yeah, okay, the M three ultras in

00:31:00   the Mac pro now, because that means like they didn't even care enough to put it in the same

00:31:04   time that they did it with the studio.

00:31:05   The good news would be if they're holding it back, because there's going to be a different

00:31:09   chip that is, that is outside the range of the Mac studio that they, they, they can't

00:31:15   fit it in the Mac studio cooling.

00:31:17   And that's the reason why the Mac pro hardware actually starts to make sense is that they

00:31:21   need that extra from that, that hardware.

00:31:25   And that it's not just a big Mac studio.

00:31:28   Um, and we'll see.

00:31:29   I mean, I, I just, I don't know.

00:31:31   I don't know what the story is there, but it's, um, it's not great right now, but that would

00:31:35   be, again, it's either going to be the other shoe drops and it's just sad or the other shoe

00:31:40   is going to drop.

00:31:40   And it's kind of like, ah, okay.

00:31:42   The Mac pro has a purpose now.

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00:33:56   We've tried lots of different meals in boxes that come pre-prepared and the factor stuff.

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00:34:41   Steven, it's rumor roundup time.

00:34:46   Yeah.

00:34:47   Thank you.

00:34:48   Thank you.

00:34:48   Very nice.

00:34:49   Um, it is, uh, Mark Gurman, of course, the sheriff of, uh, of the rumor roundup reporting in his

00:34:56   newsletter that Apple is considering plans.

00:34:59   Considering is the word I, I, uh, highlighted here to put cameras on Apple watch.

00:35:06   Uh, he's reported about this before.

00:35:08   I'm not sure how much of this is new.

00:35:11   It's not a decided, but his angle here is that they're actually thinking about it now, not for

00:35:17   FaceTime or anything like that, but for visual intelligence, the idea that they are, which is

00:35:22   not, it's kind of an underwhelming feature right now, but I think what Gurman says is they're

00:35:26   high on it and, and eventually being able to, uh, put their own models in there and analyze

00:35:31   what is in the world around you and give you actionable information.

00:35:35   And so, uh, he, he says it would be on the side for the ultra.

00:35:38   So you'd kind of like hold your ultra out and go boop.

00:35:41   And it would like, look at whatever you were looking at and on the front for the series where

00:35:45   you have to kind of like flip it over and go boop.

00:35:46   And, uh, then the, the series will do it that way.

00:35:49   But, um, this, I don't know what I feel about cameras on the Apple watch, but this makes more

00:35:55   sense.

00:35:56   It's what I worry about is that it's the people who've been trying to build this camera who

00:36:01   are like, how about visual intelligence?

00:36:02   Will that get our camera put in the Apple watch at last?

00:36:05   Because I think FaceTime shooting, you know, up your nose while you're trying to talk to

00:36:09   somebody on your watch is not a great use of a camera.

00:36:12   Visual intelligence seems a little better.

00:36:14   And he said, this is similar to what they're thinking about with cameras and AirPods is just

00:36:18   sort of like allow your devices to understand things about what's around you.

00:36:22   Yeah, I don't, I'm not excited about it.

00:36:25   And maybe it's cause I'm not a visual intelligence user.

00:36:28   Like the times that I've tried it, it's because we're going to talk about it.

00:36:32   on a show.

00:36:33   And maybe that's just me, but even like Google lens, other things like, I just don't tend

00:36:39   to like point a camera or something, but like, what is this?

00:36:41   You know, I can, this is not a need I have.

00:36:44   Translation is a thing that I do, but I very rarely otherwise dealing with this sort of stuff.

00:36:49   Because it just doesn't, I just don't think it's good enough most of the time.

00:36:54   If they can make it good.

00:36:55   Like, I love the idea of your device knows where you are and knows things about you and

00:37:00   knows what you're seeing and can explain it to you.

00:37:02   Like I like that idea, but in practice, it's, it's just not very interesting.

00:37:09   I also wonder about the potential pushback on something like this.

00:37:15   Like I know we all walk around with iPhones.

00:37:17   Like my phone's got three cameras on the back and one of the front, like it's covered in cameras,

00:37:22   iPad laptops.

00:37:23   Like we've all gotten used to that and we have been used to that for a long time, right?

00:37:28   Phones, even before smartphones had cameras, but suddenly when you're talking about AirPods

00:37:33   and watches, things that you may wear on your person in times that you would not have your

00:37:39   phone, that feels a little bit different.

00:37:43   Like if you're at the gym and you have your watch on in the locker room, like your phone's

00:37:49   in your bag, like suddenly like you have a camera in a space that a camera is not expected.

00:37:54   And I don't think this would be like full glass hole kind of levels of pushback, but I think

00:38:03   there would be some and with some people and, and, and take off the table, like security things,

00:38:10   you know, you can get an iPhone without a camera and app like Apple or other companies make those

00:38:16   for people who work in like secure locations or people may have to leave their phone in

00:38:21   a locker at work and not take the phone in to work because of their, whatever they're working

00:38:24   on.

00:38:25   Well, suddenly you're talking about a watch and AirPods that now have those requirements.

00:38:30   Like, I just don't know.

00:38:32   I just don't know if, if visual intelligence or, or honestly, even FaceTime or just having

00:38:37   a camera on your person at all times, if that's worth that potential downside.

00:38:42   I think this is one of the fascinating areas where we, we have to look again, I think we're

00:38:46   going to talk about this later, but where Apple's doing well and where Apple's doing poorly.

00:38:50   And it, it ends in a situation.

00:38:53   And I think we're going to see this more where Apple becomes culturally across the company aligned

00:38:59   in that AI is the future and that, you know, all these features are, are super important.

00:39:03   And, and so let's take visual intelligence.

00:39:05   Apple says visual intelligence is an enormous part of the future.

00:39:09   You all go work on visual intelligence, which right now is just super limited.

00:39:13   It's like a Google image search or a open AI.

00:39:16   I mean, it's like, there's very little there.

00:39:18   It's not that interesting.

00:39:19   Most of the time, the hardware people are like, we're on it.

00:39:23   And Apple's hardware people are executing so much better than their software people right

00:39:27   now.

00:39:27   They're at the top of their game.

00:39:29   I think that's one of the weird things about the current state of Apple is that the hardware

00:39:32   is not the problem at all.

00:39:34   They seem to be the best at doing what they do.

00:39:36   And so you end up in these situations where like, I love the idea that they, they're like,

00:39:43   yeah, we can put a camera in a watch and we'll make it kind of more scanny and a little less

00:39:47   like it's a FaceTime thing.

00:39:48   And so you'll be able to kind of like find a piece of paper and go boop and it'll scan a

00:39:52   document and tell you what it is and act on it or put it in your photo library or whatever.

00:39:56   Like, great.

00:39:57   When I, I walk the dog with just an Apple watch and if I see something weird, uh, that's

00:40:01   worth taking a picture of, I can't.

00:40:03   Right.

00:40:03   So I like, okay, all right.

00:40:05   So the hardware people do this.

00:40:07   It's like amazing hardware miniaturization that they've done.

00:40:10   It's incredible.

00:40:10   Meanwhile, the, the, the, the software team has shipped an Apple or visual intelligence is

00:40:17   like, it doesn't really do anything.

00:40:19   And that's, that's the concern is that Apple puts all this amazing hardware in these products.

00:40:24   And if they're not supported properly by the software, then it's just a waste of everybody's

00:40:28   time.

00:40:28   So that's, that's my concern about it now is that if I think about visual intelligence now,

00:40:32   I don't see why it's worth doing this.

00:40:34   So, okay.

00:40:34   So they've got great confidence in the future of visual intelligence.

00:40:37   According to Mark Gurman, are we confident in their confidence?

00:40:41   I don't know.

00:40:42   Not after the last few weeks.

00:40:44   I'm not.

00:40:45   Anyway, that's, that's the, look, there's, because this is, here's the thing.

00:40:51   I think that this is a direction within Apple, which is put sensors everywhere and put cameras

00:40:56   everywhere.

00:40:57   And the reason you do it is because they're foreseeing a future, which I think is not unreasonable

00:41:01   where your location and what's around you has all sorts of benefits.

00:41:05   It has accessibility benefits too, where it can say, I see this thing in front of you.

00:41:10   If they ever build those, you know, like Meta Ray-Ban style glasses that have a camera in

00:41:14   it, same thing.

00:41:15   You're, you're, you're using AI on the, on the phone to process all of that image stuff.

00:41:19   And then you've got accessibility issues and you've got other intelligence cues.

00:41:23   And there's so many different things that can do.

00:41:26   It's more precise on a map because, uh, beyond the, just the GPS, especially if you're in

00:41:31   a city, it can recognize, it already can do this.

00:41:33   It can recognize the buildings and know where you are great, but you could be aligned in that

00:41:39   way and build all your hardware toward that direction.

00:41:41   But like, if you ship the hardware and it turns out the software is just not there, what are

00:41:46   we even doing here?

00:41:47   So I, I don't know.

00:41:49   I don't know.

00:41:50   The other thing I wanted to mention, by the way, since this is the rumor roundup segment

00:41:52   is that Mark Gurman is apparently making the media rounds.

00:41:55   Now I'll just point out, we had Mark Gurman on Upgrade like five years ago.

00:41:59   So I remember we did.

00:42:01   Um, but he, the sheriff is, uh, is riding the range.

00:42:04   He was on app stories for 28, where he talked about his kind of origin story.

00:42:10   And he was also on a Mac rumors show one 39.

00:42:14   So he's out there.

00:42:16   He's talking.

00:42:16   I heard a rumor.

00:42:17   Oh, see, I'm going to get, I got a Mark Gurman rumor for you, Steven.

00:42:21   Okay.

00:42:21   Who's the sheriff now?

00:42:23   My sources are reporting that it's possible that Mark Gurman will be on Mac Break Weekly

00:42:29   tomorrow.

00:42:29   I don't know if that's worked out or not, but that was the rumor I heard.

00:42:32   I'm just saying, I just want to drop a Mac, a Mark Gurman themed rumor for fun.

00:42:37   Okay.

00:42:38   I like it.

00:42:39   Um, but yeah, we did.

00:42:40   We had Mark on, uh, like five years ago and it was, it was a great conversation.

00:42:44   He's, uh, he's, uh, he's the, as Gruber wrote the other week, he is the foremost, uh, Apple

00:42:50   reporter right now.

00:42:51   There is nobody else out there with remotely the sources that he has.

00:42:54   The information breaks some stuff from time to time behind their paywall wall street journal

00:42:59   and New York times haven't really done a lot with it.

00:43:01   Occasionally we get leaks out of the, um, supply chain from the people out there, but, um, most

00:43:08   of it is by Mark Gurman.

00:43:10   And so, you know, tip, tip our hat to him.

00:43:12   He's, uh, he's killing it.

00:43:15   And, and I, I think as Gruber pointed out, the most obvious way that he's killing it

00:43:19   is nobody else is remotely close.

00:43:22   So good for Mark and good for Bloomberg.

00:43:24   I would like to segue into lawyer up another segment.

00:43:29   Do you enjoy being in all these segments?

00:43:31   We don't, you know.

00:43:31   It's, it's great.

00:43:32   I mean, I feel like I should have brought more outfits, but the structure helps.

00:43:36   The structure helps, especially when, uh, when, when Mike is gone, it's nice to have

00:43:41   a structure.

00:43:41   You don't need Mike.

00:43:43   You got the structure.

00:43:44   I got the structure.

00:43:45   It's, it's basically like Mike.

00:43:46   Mike is just a structure in human form.

00:43:48   Uh, lawyer up.

00:43:49   Uh, the EU told Apple to open up access to notifications and a smartwatch interoperability.

00:43:55   This is, you put this in the document.

00:43:58   Why don't you tell me what's going on?

00:43:59   I did.

00:44:00   What does the EU want, uh, Apple to do?

00:44:01   They want them to make the Pebble good.

00:44:04   No, we're going to get to Pebble in a second.

00:44:05   Uh, well, Pebble, even back in the day, Pebble was a good example.

00:44:09   Like there was no Apple watch and, uh, when Pebble was starting out and I

00:44:14   had a Pebble, do you have a Pebble?

00:44:16   Yeah.

00:44:17   And, and it was passable, but not really super integrated with the phone.

00:44:21   And the thought was, well, the Apple watch is going to come out and it'll be super integrated.

00:44:24   And it was, but the fact is to this day, they're trying to bring back the Pebble and they still

00:44:29   can't integrate, um, with it.

00:44:32   Yeah.

00:44:32   In fact, it's kind of worse in some ways than it was before.

00:44:34   And that's what this, I feel like that's one of the things this EU, um, ruling is about.

00:44:39   Yeah.

00:44:40   So there, there are several points to this that, uh, Apple has been told to deal with.

00:44:44   Uh, the first is that non-Apple smartwatch devices should have, uh, the ability to receive

00:44:52   push notifications, including pictures and reply to those notifications.

00:44:57   So this is something that really wasn't around in the first sort of Pebble era, but you know,

00:45:02   you get a notification and you can do a tap back or you can do a quick reply with your voice

00:45:07   or with the little keyboard.

00:45:08   And that's available to the Apple watch.

00:45:11   Cause they're all, it's all conjoined with the iPhone, but not on other things.

00:45:16   Or if it is, it's very limited.

00:45:17   So like, um, if you have a Garmin smartwatch, you know, if you're a big runner, some of those

00:45:23   companies have done things to like, they do like a fast reply, but then has to go through their app

00:45:28   or their app has to be open.

00:45:29   Yeah.

00:45:30   Uh, it's, it's, it's a workaround.

00:45:32   It's hacky.

00:45:32   And this mandate says, no, no, no, you gotta, you gotta open that access up to notifications.

00:45:38   Uh, iPhone users going on will also be able to pair their non-Apple connected devices,

00:45:45   such as headphones and smartwatches more seamlessly and easily with the iPhone.

00:45:49   So we're all familiar with, you get a new Apple watch or a new set of AirPods, you open

00:45:54   it, the card comes up, right.

00:45:55   And you take a picture of like the weird, a QR code in space, or do you just hit the button

00:46:01   on your AirPods and they sync up?

00:46:02   That system seems like it's going to need to be opened up.

00:46:06   And if you've, like, I did this recently, we had to replace, this is a very upgrade topic.

00:46:09   We had to replace our shower speaker because whatever waterproof JBL we had for like 10 years

00:46:15   finally died.

00:46:16   I replaced it with a newer waterproof JBL.

00:46:18   All right.

00:46:19   That's loyalty.

00:46:20   I love it.

00:46:21   And yeah, it's great.

00:46:22   The first one was great.

00:46:23   It lasted a long time.

00:46:24   But I like hit the button and like, I sort of waited for the card because I've just paired

00:46:30   AirPods and stuff recently.

00:46:31   I was like, oh, wait, I got to go into like settings and Bluetooth and add device.

00:46:35   And they want that to be more easily done.

00:46:39   Faster data connections to and from the iPhone.

00:46:43   And then one that's sort of outside of, like those all feel related.

00:46:48   This one feels a little bit different.

00:46:49   Developers should be able to integrate alternative solutions to AirDrop and AirPlay on the iPhone.

00:46:58   So, uh, quoting iPhone users, uh, will be able to choose from different and innovative services to share files with other users and cast media content from their iPhones to TVs.

00:47:11   Right.

00:47:11   Which you can do now, but it's not sort of the system level to do that.

00:47:15   So the fact is there is no reason today that the Apple watch should be better than any other smartwatch on the iPhone because Apple has built features for the Apple watch and doesn't allow anybody else to use them.

00:47:35   Right.

00:47:35   I, I feel like fundamentally that is anti-competitive and we could talk about what happens in the early days when Apple is building the platform.

00:47:42   I don't think Apple needs to build every product for everybody at launch.

00:47:47   I think that there's an argument to be made that for them to innovate, they need to build it for their product and then they can start rolling it out.

00:47:55   And there could be a window of, of, uh, uh, availability for it where it's like, well, you can, you can build this stuff for your own stuff, but within five years, it needs to be APIs that are open to people.

00:48:05   Like, and again, that would be a huge advantage for the Apple watch, for example, over other products.

00:48:10   But, you know, 10 years in 10 plus years into the Apple watch, the fact that nobody else can do what the Apple watch does because Apple won't let them is not great.

00:48:20   It's just, it's, it's not great.

00:48:22   Of course, Apple doesn't like this.

00:48:23   Apple said today's decisions wrap us in red tape, slowing down Apple's ability to innovate for users in Europe and forcing us to give away our new features for free to companies who don't have to play by the same rules.

00:48:33   It's bad for our products and for our European users.

00:48:35   We will continue to work with the European commission to help them understand our concerns on behalf of our users.

00:48:41   And as with everything Apple says, there's truth in it and also not truth in it.

00:48:46   So, um, again, I, I, I'm sympathetic, but I also think that this is the classic Apple move, which I'm sympathetic to their argument, but they overstep, they overreach because they're using a reasonable argument to make, expand it out into an unreasonable argument.

00:49:04   Which is if we, if we build stuff for our smartwatch, why should we ever give it to anybody else?

00:49:11   And nobody else has access to our platform, but us.

00:49:14   So, uh, it's the EU saying, no, you need to be able to let other people compete with you, which doesn't seem, you know, it doesn't seem unreasonable.

00:49:22   Again, ability to innovate and giving away new features for free.

00:49:27   Like I get it.

00:49:28   And that's what I'm saying.

00:49:29   I, I, I don't think everything Apple does should be an open API the moment that it ships.

00:49:35   I don't think that, but I do think that ultimately they need to not like withhold all smartwatch features from their platform for 10 years, except for the Apple watch.

00:49:45   That seems unreasonable to me.

00:49:47   It marks a shift.

00:49:48   This is not a fully formed thought, so forgive me, but having something like Bluetooth fast pairing with the card and stuff, like, is that really a big advantage of AirPods?

00:50:00   Like you see it one time you set it up or if you restore them, I have to set it up again.

00:50:04   Right.

00:50:05   Uh, what makes AirPods good is the sound quality, the connection, the noise cancellation.

00:50:10   It seems like Apple's trying to pick a fight over a feature that's not even that important or that big in that specific case.

00:50:19   But at the same time, this is the part that's really not fully formed.

00:50:23   Doesn't it make the iPhone better and more valuable to an end user if they can bring other smartwatches to it?

00:50:32   Or if a smart ring has better, you know, health integration, whatever the example is.

00:50:39   Apple has shifted at some point from what makes a single product better for a user to what makes the ecosystem better for a user.

00:50:47   And that feels like where a lot of the friction sort of lies.

00:50:50   Yeah, I agree.

00:50:51   I think you could throw the whole App Store issue in here too, which is, it's like Apple has decided that the ecosystem is entirely controlled by Apple and Apple's products.

00:51:10   And there isn't that broader thought, which is, well, but to make the ecosystem good, we need to have a lot of players in it.

00:51:18   And the conflict of interest is, yeah, but we have a smartwatch.

00:51:22   Why would we let any competitors in?

00:51:23   And I know I've said this on this podcast a lot, but it bears repeating.

00:51:27   Why compete if you don't have to?

00:51:29   I mean, I understand it.

00:51:31   As frustrating as it is, I think for us observers, I understand why Apple has this opinion.

00:51:35   Because even if we say Apple is going to, like the Apple Watch is not, if they completely open up, or AirPods, every feature of connectivity on the iPhone to those products, it's not going to change.

00:51:50   Apple being number one.

00:51:51   No.

00:51:53   It's not.

00:51:53   It's not.

00:51:54   But why be number one when you could be 100%?

00:51:56   Yeah.

00:51:58   I think in these conversations, a lot of people will be like, well, think about the iPod and iTunes, right?

00:52:04   Like, Apple made iTunes, it made the iPod, they were made to work together, and at times there were ways to break that marriage apart.

00:52:14   But I think a couple things are true.

00:52:17   One, that was a long time ago, and Apple was dealing with things like music rights and other complicated things that don't really come into play of, like, can my Garmin get iMessage notifications, right?

00:52:29   So it is a different playing field.

00:52:32   But the truth is also, we live in a different time where there are lots of companies making lots of products, lots of good products.

00:52:40   Yeah.

00:52:41   And Apple has built walls in a way where, like you said it perfectly, that they don't have to compete, and they hide behind privacy or user security.

00:52:52   And some of that may be true, some of it's not true.

00:52:56   And they are hurting, potentially, one part of their business in order to try to boost another one, which was your point that I thought was really good, your point that you're still thinking about, which is that the iPhone is less good because people who want to make various wearable things, like Fitbits and Pebbles and other smartwatches, can't make them as good for the iPhone.

00:53:23   It means that when you look at Eric Mikakovsky's Pebble Eric, Eric Pebble, if you look at his blog post about bringing back the Pebble, he says, it's going to be way better on Android.

00:53:37   Yeah.

00:53:39   And I roll my eyes because he's like, well, of course, all of us here use Android because it's open.

00:53:42   I'm like, whatever, dude.

00:53:43   Okay, fine.

00:53:43   Whatever.

00:53:44   You worked at Google.

00:53:44   Great.

00:53:45   Yeah.

00:53:46   But you can be obnoxious and right.

00:53:48   Yeah, I know.

00:53:49   It turns out.

00:53:49   This is what Epic Games taught us.

00:53:53   Sometimes the worst person in the world is right about something.

00:53:57   It is like the iPhone is worse.

00:54:03   And I cannot understand people who contort to say, well, actually, the fact that the Pebble is much worse on the iPhone than on Android is a good thing because, you know, my column.

00:54:15   And it's like, no, it's not.

00:54:17   It means that it's a company town with one solution and then everything else has been intentionally degraded because they want you to buy the Apple Watch.

00:54:26   And not everybody wants an Apple Watch.

00:54:28   And for Apple, I want an Apple Watch, quite honestly, but not everybody does.

00:54:32   And so allowing there to be more, it's not even competition, variety of products available to your users in your ecosystem is a benefit to your devices.

00:54:44   And this is, Stephen, it goes back to the fact that I still get the feeling that Apple, as much as Apple talks about all the money that it's paid out to developers after taking its share, that the truth is Apple ascribes 100% of the iPhone's success to itself.

00:55:02   When, in fact, an enormous portion of the iPhone's success is due to the apps in the App Store, which were made by people who are not Apple.

00:55:10   But Apple even gives itself credit for apps in the App Store because the App Store is Apple's.

00:55:15   So, therefore, it's all from Apple's invention and everything else they do.

00:55:18   They do these self-serving reports where they talk about how much economic impact they have in various countries.

00:55:26   And they roll every, like, app developer in there like they were an Apple employee.

00:55:30   And, I mean, it's deeply misguided because, and I think that this is biting them in a bunch of areas now in terms of working with developers, is the iPhone, I mean, you could really argue that what made the iPhone fly was the App Store.

00:55:47   So, if there's no App Store and there's only Apple apps on the iPhone, what happens?

00:55:53   The answer is the iPhone is not what it is today without those developers.

00:55:57   And yet they have this attitude that is pretty pervasive, which is it's all about us and that's the wrong attitude.

00:56:05   The attitude is our products are improved by the other products in our ecosystem, and, therefore, you should let other products in your ecosystem.

00:56:14   And they do to a certain extent, but you have these areas where they're just like, well, no, we can't have book reading be good on the iPhone or the iPad.

00:56:23   It can never be good other than in our app because we have decided to bar Amazon and Kobo and anybody else from selling books and comics directly from the app.

00:56:34   They have to do a big workaround, and we don't because we're the owner, and they're giving themselves an advantage.

00:56:39   But it makes, it degrades the iPhone experience, and there are so many different examples of this.

00:56:43   This is just another one because, again, I don't think the Pebble is going to compete with the Apple Watch at all.

00:56:47   But there are some, if you want to use a Pebble in the year 2025, you are not a serious Apple Watch potential customer, right?

00:56:58   You are looking for something very different, and that's okay.

00:57:02   That's okay because Apple's still going to be, the Apple Watch is still going to be the best on the platform.

00:57:07   And if it's not going to be the best on the platform, well, Apple should get a kick in the pants and make it better.

00:57:11   Yeah.

00:57:12   Yeah, it's, what's the word for it?

00:57:15   Anti-competitive?

00:57:16   No, that can't be the word.

00:57:17   That can't be the word.

00:57:18   Yeah, options are good.

00:57:20   And people should have them.

00:57:21   And yeah, hey, Pebble coming back in 2025 was not on my bingo card, but here we are.

00:57:31   I like that Eric Pebble has enough money and enough sway at Google that he can get them to open source their OS and that he can fund, essentially, because he's not Kickstartering this.

00:57:46   I kickstarted the first Pebble.

00:57:47   Yeah, they're just making them.

00:57:48   He's just using his own money to make them and then he's going to sell them, like in the old days, before we had crowdfunding.

00:57:54   And I love it.

00:57:56   I think I still have my Pebble around here somewhere.

00:57:59   I ordered one.

00:58:01   I've got the Core 2 Duo, the black and white one, underscore and I each, he talked me into it, just to see what's going on there.

00:58:09   And honestly, like if Apple has to change some of these things, like, I mean, I like the Apple Watch a lot, but there may be times where I choose to wear the Pebble for whatever reason.

00:58:19   Or, you know, or if I were a runner, I'd want to wear a Garmin.

00:58:23   Like, again, coming down to options for consumers.

00:58:28   This ruling also, I think, will have an impact on things like the meta Ray-Bans, right, where the idea here is interoperability.

00:58:36   That the meta Ray-Bans is an example where Apple doesn't have a product in the category, but they can only integrate to a certain degree.

00:58:43   And it's also, so many of these things are like, well, you're going to run our app.

00:58:46   And if our app stops running, everything stops working until you run our app again.

00:58:49   And it's just, you know, again, Apple should, I would argue in that case, since it's basically using the same kind of things, that if Apple doesn't want to play in that area, that's fine.

00:59:01   But if iPhone users want that product, they should be able to use it and have it be decent.

00:59:06   And that requires that level of interoperability.

00:59:08   So, yeah.

00:59:09   We'll see.

00:59:11   We'll keep watching it.

00:59:13   The lawyers, they are lawyering up.

00:59:16   Keep watching the clock.

00:59:18   No.

00:59:19   Wait.

00:59:19   Keep watching the briefcase.

00:59:21   Got it.

00:59:22   This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by Google Gemini.

00:59:27   I used Gemini for the first time the other day.

00:59:29   And the most impressive thing to me was just talking to it.

00:59:32   You go live with it.

00:59:33   And then it's just like you're having a conversation.

00:59:35   You can just talk about your day or have it explain something to you or start brainstorming ideas.

00:59:41   I'll give you an example.

00:59:42   I pretended I had a job interview coming up and I asked for it to help me prep for the interview.

00:59:47   It immediately started suggesting common questions I might get asked.

00:59:51   Then I started talking through my answers out loud and it would give me feedback.

00:59:55   And it's all happening in real time, like I'm talking to a career coach.

00:59:59   That's just what I tried first, but you can talk to it about anything.

01:00:03   And that's the magic of it.

01:00:04   How you can have this back and forth and it's all seamless.

01:00:07   If you haven't tried it yet, it's definitely worth checking out.

01:00:10   You'll see what I mean.

01:00:11   Our thanks to Google Gemini for the support of this show and all of Relay.

01:00:16   All right.

01:00:17   So we also need to talk about streaming boxes.

01:00:21   Stephen, this is back to Mark Gurman, actually, because something Mark Gurman wrote in one of his pieces kind of set me off.

01:00:31   Yeah.

01:00:32   Yeah.

01:00:32   I think you texted some of us about it.

01:00:34   I did.

01:00:35   I did.

01:00:36   I texted you and Mike about it.

01:00:37   Then you turned it into a blog post.

01:00:38   Yeah.

01:00:39   Well, and it came up on Upgrade and I ranted about it there.

01:00:44   And during, I believe it was during Upgrade, I bought a Fire TV, a Google TV, and a Roku 4K streamer box.

01:00:54   Because Mark Gurman wrote this piece about Apple TV being a laggard and needing a hardware update because it was a laggard with a low market share.

01:01:04   And look, I think, as I say in my article that set this whole thing in motion, I think he's just conflating the two things.

01:01:13   I think it's basically a writer or editor kind of conflating these two things rather than getting into the details of the complexity of it.

01:01:19   But Apple shipping a new Apple TV box with upgraded specs is not going to change anything about the Apple TV because it's already fine.

01:01:30   It never has.

01:01:32   Never.

01:01:32   I mean, maybe in, was it 2015 when they launched tvOS and the future television as apps and all that stuff.

01:01:41   Sure.

01:01:41   Maybe then.

01:01:43   But since then, in the 10 years since, it's like, well, do it, you know, like I upgraded when I bought my first 4K TV.

01:01:49   And honestly, I don't even know what Apple TV I have.

01:01:53   I know it uses the newest remote, but I think the third and the second gen could.

01:01:57   So I honestly don't even know.

01:01:59   Yep.

01:01:59   And it doesn't matter.

01:02:01   It doesn't matter.

01:02:01   It doesn't matter.

01:02:02   That's the, that's the thing.

01:02:05   It is so powerful.

01:02:08   Well, first off, it's so much more powerful.

01:02:09   We got to talk about streamer boxes, but we also got to talk about embedded streaming because so many people, I think I haven't, I haven't looked at these numbers.

01:02:16   I probably should interface with connected content on their television sets through the apps on their TV.

01:02:24   Oh yeah.

01:02:25   And those processors are terrible.

01:02:28   If you've ever tried to use, like even on relatively recent TVs, they are so slow.

01:02:34   I have a Roku TV, you know, it's so slow.

01:02:39   And the Roku box is faster than that.

01:02:41   The standalone box I bought for a hundred dollars is faster than that for sure.

01:02:44   Yeah.

01:02:45   But, but, you know, it's just not an issue.

01:02:47   First off, a lot of people are worried about that lowest common denominator.

01:02:50   And they're like, well, we're, you know, we need to support all of our apps on all devices.

01:02:53   And that means these terrible TVs as well.

01:02:56   But if you buy a box, yes, Apple's market share is pretty low.

01:03:00   And I do think that they may need to make a more affordable box because I think that it would be good for them to do so.

01:03:07   And so if, if Mark Gurman's, if I read between the lines, maybe one of the things he's saying is if they update the Apple TV hardware, maybe that will enable them to get the price point down a little bit.

01:03:16   And which I say, great.

01:03:17   But that's literally the only hardware innovation that I want to see on the Apple TV on that side.

01:03:21   I know there are people out there who are like playing games on the Apple TV who want more, but it's really such a niche use for the Apple TV that I'm just for the purposes of this.

01:03:31   Let's just not even talk about it.

01:03:33   Because when he says they're a laggard, he means that people aren't buying them, that it's a very low market share.

01:03:38   But I was really skeptical about this comment because I thought my experience is that the Apple TV is actually pretty good.

01:03:46   And while we're really frustrated about all the things it doesn't do, the hardware especially is not the problem.

01:03:52   So I bought these boxes.

01:03:54   I bought the Google TV, the Amazon, and the Roku.

01:03:58   And I have spent the last month kind of using them on and off and trying a bunch of things on them.

01:04:05   And I can tell you up front that the hardware, again, the hardware is not the problem.

01:04:10   Apple TV hardware is fine.

01:04:11   It's just fine.

01:04:12   The software is a problem, although it made me appreciate the things that are good about the Apple TV a lot more too.

01:04:19   Do you have any questions for me?

01:04:21   Can you debrief me about this ridiculous project that I gave for myself where I spent several hundred dollars for a single blog post?

01:04:28   Yeah, which is not going to work out for me financially.

01:04:31   Let's wring some more content out of it now, Stephen.

01:04:33   This is what I'm saying.

01:04:33   That's all right.

01:04:34   If anybody would like a Fire TV stick 4K, call me, I guess.

01:04:40   I have one.

01:04:41   You can have it.

01:04:41   You can just look at his address and go get it.

01:04:43   Yeah, so you checked out several of these things.

01:04:49   And I will say, in my household, the Apple TV is our television experience, right?

01:04:55   I don't have cable.

01:04:56   We use Hulu Live.

01:04:58   My kids, to them, television is TVOS.

01:05:02   And it's been that way since the second or third Apple TV, basically the whole time.

01:05:08   And so I have not spent a lot of time with these other ones.

01:05:11   And I was surprised.

01:05:13   I want to start with Google TV.

01:05:15   And you really praised its live tab where they're pulling in what's on live television through YouTube TV, but also YouTube Premium and all these other places.

01:05:29   Yeah, streaming channels.

01:05:30   Yeah.

01:05:31   Yeah, it sounds like they've really kind of gotten that figured out.

01:05:33   Yeah.

01:05:34   I mean, one of the big things, and I heard from somebody who was like, well, I don't care about live TV.

01:05:37   It's like, well, okay.

01:05:39   But the fastest growing segment in streaming right now is live TV.

01:05:43   It's fast channels, free ad-supported television, but also all of the services are adding live channels.

01:05:51   And one of the reasons for that is sometimes, not to put too fine a point on it, sometimes you want to sit down and turn off your brain and just watch something.

01:05:58   Or you're making dinner or you're folding laundry and you just want to put something on.

01:06:02   And these are essentially playlists, unless it's like a news channel or a sports channel.

01:06:07   They're essentially playlists.

01:06:09   But that's fine.

01:06:11   Like, have you looked at cable TV lately?

01:06:13   Most cable channels are also just playlists where they show 18 episodes of Law & Order in a row.

01:06:18   So with streaming, you can go to Peacock and just watch the Law & Order channel.

01:06:26   And it's just a channel where Law & Order will play.

01:06:29   And like, you don't have to program it.

01:06:31   You don't have to pick an episode.

01:06:32   And it's a very popular kind.

01:06:35   Like, not everything is on demand or has to be on demand.

01:06:38   And a lot of people are really responding well to what we all know the TV always did well, which is sometimes you just turn on the TV, flip it to a channel, and veg out.

01:06:47   And that's all you want to do.

01:06:48   And think about how many places where TVs are that maybe aren't the living room where that's true.

01:06:54   So what I just thought about was the tire shop that I go to.

01:06:58   I was just there because I had an issue.

01:07:00   Their TV in their waiting room, 100% of the time, is playing MASH.

01:07:05   We spoke about MASH earlier.

01:07:07   Oh, man.

01:07:07   I don't know if the guy's got a DVD player in the back and he just like swaps them in or if it's streaming somewhere.

01:07:13   But like, any time I've been in there over the course of years, you know, it's MASH.

01:07:20   And it makes sense, right?

01:07:23   It's just in the background of your waiting room.

01:07:25   Most people are going to look at their phones or, you know, pull a laptop out and get some work done because they're waiting on a tire to get patched or whatever.

01:07:30   Or you can watch MASH.

01:07:31   Or you can watch MASH.

01:07:33   And honestly, I prefer that than having like cable news on.

01:07:36   Oh, yeah.

01:07:37   Yeah.

01:07:37   Yeah.

01:07:37   These, you know, these services, right?

01:07:40   Like Google TV and the Amazon thing and tvOS, like they're designed with the living room in mind, I think.

01:07:48   But very clearly there are times where they are used in other contexts, right?

01:07:54   So we talked about AirPlay a second ago with the European Union.

01:07:57   A lot of people put Apple TVs in conference rooms and classrooms for AirPlay.

01:08:04   And now that AirPlay is on televisions and I think even some projectors now, like maybe that's going to break down a little bit.

01:08:10   But these products do interact.

01:08:12   You know, we interact with these products in different ways.

01:08:15   And it seems to me like the live tab in Google TV kind of understands that where it's bringing everything together so you don't have to hop around.

01:08:25   And giving you just like a broad overview of what's available to you in a way that I think tvOS tries to do.

01:08:33   But as we get to it, I think it falls down in a few ways.

01:08:36   Yeah.

01:08:37   By the way, it's funny.

01:08:38   I'm going to make an admission here because I don't think there's a MASH fast channel.

01:08:41   And I don't know what your tire shop is doing.

01:08:43   But I'll tell you, so the Channels app that Casey always talks about, I have that.

01:08:51   I love it.

01:08:51   I use that to record stuff off of my YouTube TV subscription, actually.

01:08:58   And then I can watch it later on my local DVR instead of using YouTube's DVR.

01:09:02   I started that with Fubo.

01:09:04   YouTube's DVR is better.

01:09:05   I might just be able to just use YouTube's DVR.

01:09:07   But YouTube's DVR has like a two-week cutoff.

01:09:09   And these will just keep forever as long as I want them, which is great.

01:09:13   So I've got like a bunch of Jeopardy episodes on there and I watch them when I want to.

01:09:16   But one of the features of channels is you can create a virtual channel.

01:09:21   And it's pointed at my Plex library.

01:09:24   So I have a MASH channel that will just play MASH forever.

01:09:28   I actually have that because I have all the episodes on my Plex of MASH.

01:09:34   And I have a MASH channel and you can just turn it on and then you're the tire store at that point, which is great.

01:09:40   Yeah, that's right.

01:09:41   So yeah, live isn't the only feature.

01:09:42   But one of the reasons I focused on live with Google TV, which because I have YouTube TV, like it doesn't integrate with all of them, but it does integrate with a couple of them.

01:09:51   I think it does Sling and Google TV or YouTube TV.

01:09:56   But as a result, it's like, look, if you're in the Google ecosystem, Google TV is as good as Apple TV, basically, because it is tied into YouTube TV and YouTube.

01:10:05   And all the Google, like if you rented a movie or bought a movie on your Android phone, it's there.

01:10:11   All of the ones that I synced from Movies Anywhere are there.

01:10:14   I could watch a movie on it.

01:10:15   It's just, it is Google's answer to Apple TV and it's pretty good.

01:10:21   But the live support puts it over the top because this is the thing.

01:10:25   Yeah.

01:10:26   Apple doesn't do that.

01:10:28   And that is one of the things that, because I wanted to write about the live stuff is because Apple has completely missed the boat when it comes to live.

01:10:35   And this has been a recently emerging phenomenon, but they've had a few years.

01:10:39   And if we go another tvOS announcement without them integrating live TV in some way, it's a really bad sign because it feels like tvOS is holding the product down because they are just on maintenance mode with this thing.

01:10:56   And the streaming world is shifting and adding, you know, letting people add their third party apps is not enough.

01:11:01   They need to do some work on the OS.

01:11:04   And one of the places they need to do work is in a live guide because you should have an API the way it should work.

01:11:10   And Amazon does this really well, actually.

01:11:11   I do not.

01:11:13   I have a stick because I don't want to buy their big cube.

01:11:15   The cube is so cool, though.

01:11:17   Yeah.

01:11:17   It's a cube with a little light going around the top of it.

01:11:20   There was a limit.

01:11:21   Well, it's kind of like an echo that's also a stream.

01:11:24   And I did not want that in my house.

01:11:26   I just didn't want it in my house.

01:11:27   I'm sorry.

01:11:28   Cubes are best.

01:11:28   I know.

01:11:29   Cubes are best.

01:11:29   Cubes are the best of gons.

01:11:32   Yeah.

01:11:32   So Amazon's is even better.

01:11:36   Amazon is doing what Apple should do in terms of if you have an app on their platform, plus they've got their own library of hundreds of live channels that you get with Prime Video.

01:11:47   You can basically, either the apps are furnishing those channels to Amazon or Amazon is just doing a back-end kind of connection with their service and that is they've negotiated with them.

01:11:59   But whatever it is, if you have an app and you say, like, I'm adding Peacock, it adds all the Peacock channels.

01:12:03   You don't have to have them there, but it'll put them there.

01:12:06   And basically, if you pick a Peacock channel, it'll launch Peacock and tune to that channel.

01:12:10   But basically, you're getting a program guide that you can then mark favorites because you've got hundreds, like 600 channels or whatever.

01:12:16   You mark your favorites and you can mark your favorite from traditional TV on something like YouTube TV, a Prime Video channel, a Roku channel, a Peacock channel, a Paramount channel, and put them in your favorites and then they all just show there.

01:12:31   So you can have ESPN and CNN and the MASH channel or whatever, the Buffy the Vampire Slayer channel.

01:12:38   And it's pretty great.

01:12:41   It's like it's the best at that.

01:12:44   But here's the problem, Steven.

01:12:46   Amazon's box is so terrible.

01:12:49   It's so good and so terrible because of the ads.

01:12:52   It has ads everywhere.

01:12:53   The home screen has ads on it and not like promos for like Apple has like Apple TV stuff that they're promoting and Google is going to promote things that are on YouTube or that you can get in their store or whatever.

01:13:04   Amazon has all that and lots of it more than normal.

01:13:10   And it has ads.

01:13:10   And it has ads.

01:13:11   So in the home screen default, the top half of the interface is an ad.

01:13:16   And it's not just an ad for something that you could watch.

01:13:19   It's literally an ad.

01:13:20   I got a makeup ad.

01:13:22   I got a mattress company ad.

01:13:25   I got a broadband ad.

01:13:26   Which is the hero image in the blog post.

01:13:28   Yes, it's the Mancini Sleep World.

01:13:29   That's a commercial.

01:13:30   If you if you arrow up by accident or whatever to the ad unit, it will take over almost the entire screen.

01:13:39   No.

01:13:40   And it will autoplay with audio a television commercial for Mancini Sleep World in this case.

01:13:46   Just something you would see on TV, a 30 second long commercial.

01:13:50   Some of them are not like that.

01:13:52   Some of them instead just have a button that will take you to commerce because Amazon is going to Amazon in the end.

01:13:57   Sure.

01:13:57   Even if you spend $100 or $120 on one of these Amazon devices, they don't view it as, you know, thanks for giving us money.

01:14:05   That's what our product is for.

01:14:06   They view it as a foothold in your house to sell you stuff and to merchandise and to sell commercial space.

01:14:14   And so if you want, if you don't mind, like it is the best in a lot of ways, but it is so aggressively just, it's like erecting a billboard in your house.

01:14:27   It's a little like saying, I'll give you a, and I think some company does this.

01:14:31   I'll give you a free 4K flat screen.

01:14:34   If when you're not watching it, it shows ads on the screen and you can't turn it off.

01:14:40   That's basically what is going on with a fire TV is that it is so aggressive with the ads that it just, look, if I'm being precious and you don't care, that's fine.

01:14:50   But like web banner ads on my television by default that I can't turn it off and they, they don't go away.

01:14:57   It is, in my opinion, a huge step above having Apple show, you know, an Apple TV show in that space.

01:15:06   It's just not, or whatever is on the other channels.

01:15:09   Cause you know, you kind of move around.

01:15:10   It's just not the same.

01:15:11   So it's really bad.

01:15:13   That was a, Tele was a company you were thinking of that has a, you just get a TV.

01:15:18   It's dual screen.

01:15:19   It shows you ads.

01:15:21   Oh, that's right.

01:15:21   Yeah.

01:15:22   You watch TV and also you see ads.

01:15:24   I'm sorry.

01:15:26   Yeah.

01:15:27   I'm sorry.

01:15:27   And that's why I said, I mean, I, I, in my piece, I basically said, I'm not going to ever use this Amazon product.

01:15:33   Like it doesn't matter how good it is.

01:15:35   It doesn't matter.

01:15:36   Cause I do not want that level of commerce in my TV interface.

01:15:41   That, that is the equivalent.

01:15:43   And I know Microsoft is already doing some of this, right?

01:15:45   But that is the equivalent of when you buy a computer, part of the screen is just a banner ad from the operating system.

01:15:54   Wait, you mean like in settings when, uh, you could buy Apple care plus or turn on Apple intelligence?

01:16:00   Again, I don't because that's marketing for the, for the company.

01:16:04   And although that's also not great, if, if imagine you boot up your windows PC and there's a, just a square in the corner that has, that has like web display ads in it.

01:16:14   Always.

01:16:15   Yeah.

01:16:16   Always.

01:16:16   Mancini sleep world.

01:16:18   And then it's L'Oreal.

01:16:20   And then it's Comcast Xfinity business internet.

01:16:23   And it just, they just keep those are the ones I saw on, on, uh, on Amazon.

01:16:27   Uh, and they just keep reloading.

01:16:29   And everywhere you go in your computer, there's always an ad like, no, just say no.

01:16:32   I, uh, it's unacceptable.

01:16:34   That, that is a bridge too far.

01:16:35   I don't like the marketing stuff from, you know, Apple saying, don't you, don't you want to buy Apple TV plus?

01:16:41   Don't you want to buy Apple care?

01:16:43   Um, but I understand it.

01:16:44   And I accept that more than what Amazon's doing, which is literally like, if you are a mattress, local mattress company, and you want to stick your 32nd TV ad in a fire TV in a particular region, we'll do it.

01:17:01   Now my, I suspect that they sold that ad and didn't qualify where it was going to run.

01:17:05   And that if Mancini Sleepworld found out that it was running in the home screen of a TV interface, they'd be like, that's not what we bought.

01:17:11   We didn't buy that.

01:17:12   We just want this on, on your, on Prime Video or something.

01:17:16   Although, by the way, I do opt out of ads on Prime Video and it doesn't have any effect on the ad load on the fire TV.

01:17:22   It's just terrible.

01:17:23   That's unfortunate.

01:17:24   But Amazon's not alone in it, right?

01:17:26   You also talked about Roku.

01:17:28   Yeah.

01:17:29   They've done advertising for a long time.

01:17:31   There was a story, I think last week about they were testing an ad spot in the boot up screen.

01:17:38   So like, not once you're logged in, but like, as the thing is booting.

01:17:42   Yeah.

01:17:43   You have to watch an ad before you get the menu.

01:17:44   Yeah.

01:17:46   And, you know, and Roku is also interesting because they make boxes, but they also sell TVs with it all integrated.

01:17:52   Yeah.

01:17:53   A good friend of mine's got a Roku TV.

01:17:54   Yeah.

01:17:54   I have a TCL TV and it's got Roku OS inside.

01:17:57   Yeah.

01:17:57   And I think a lot of people like Roku.

01:18:00   I don't have a ton of experience with it.

01:18:02   Like I said, we're TV OS through and through.

01:18:04   I've had a few.

01:18:05   But they're also doing the live TV thing, right?

01:18:09   Another example of something, of someone doing this where Apple isn't.

01:18:12   They have 500 live TV channels.

01:18:15   Roku impressed me the least.

01:18:16   And I bought their modern box and all that, but their OS seems really old.

01:18:21   It feels very much like, you think Apple TV, future of TV is apps.

01:18:24   It's an app launcher.

01:18:25   Roku is very much that.

01:18:26   It's just a super generic app launcher.

01:18:29   And then their ads and part of their business model is to stick ads and promos in.

01:18:33   But they have made this, they've added 500 channels of live streaming stuff.

01:18:39   But most of those you can get on other boxes too, because they just want the ads, the ad revenue from it.

01:18:45   But it's super generic.

01:18:46   And their live guide is okay, although it's mostly just focused on their stuff, not other people's stuff.

01:18:54   But it's, you know, I found it uninteresting.

01:18:58   And I would be, I actually wouldn't be surprised if Roku is planning a big OS update, because they sure need one.

01:19:04   It feels not that different than the Roku boxes I was using 10 years ago, honestly.

01:19:08   It's really generic and boring in a way that Google and Amazon aren't.

01:19:13   Which brings us back to the Apple TV.

01:19:15   Yeah.

01:19:16   And I've got a little, like, prescription.

01:19:18   Having made this journey, I've got a little prescription for tvOS, which is one, get on live TV.

01:19:23   Every app that's in the app store should be able to provide you with a live TV guide, either, you know, by an API or something else, where you can say, if you add Paramount Plus, you get these channels.

01:19:33   Or you show the channels anyway and say, would you like to watch these channels?

01:19:37   Get Paramount Plus or Peacock or whatever.

01:19:40   Like, that should be integrated.

01:19:42   It's great for sports.

01:19:43   It's great for live TV.

01:19:44   As somebody who's got YouTube TV, having those channels be integrated into the interface so it knows that right now I can flip to Discovery Channel or whatever and see a thing.

01:19:53   Great.

01:19:54   Fantastic.

01:19:55   Do that.

01:19:56   And the misguided or at least misfire of an interface decision where the TV app is sort of the main interface of Apple TV, but the home screen is sort of the main interface of Apple TV.

01:20:12   I just think it's wrong and out of date.

01:20:15   And the more I looked at Google and Amazon, the more I felt that way.

01:20:18   Google and Amazon integrate the apps on their box into that basically TV interface.

01:20:25   And Apple has started to do that.

01:20:26   And boy, after using those other devices, I think Apple just needs to rip the Band-Aid off and make the home screen disappear.

01:20:37   And put the TV app should be the interface and there should be an app tab or whatever and an app launcher in that main.

01:20:48   And there is sort of an app launcher already in there.

01:20:50   But this bifurcated interface is a vestige of a strategy that's not there anymore.

01:20:57   So they need some work.

01:20:59   And the problem is, Stephen, is it feels like TVOS is worked on by like five people.

01:21:04   I think that might be three people.

01:21:06   I mean, I might have overshot with five.

01:21:09   Because I'm sure the people who focus on TVOS day in, day out know that they're behind in these areas.

01:21:14   But it feels like they just don't get the funding to fix this stuff.

01:21:20   Because it's very clear they are moving slowly toward this with the TV app.

01:21:25   Like, they keep adding those features that will eventually let them kill the home screen.

01:21:29   But I think dogmatically, they're like, but we're an Apple device.

01:21:32   Everything's about app stores and home screens, right?

01:21:33   It's like, not the TV.

01:21:35   I think you shouldn't do it.

01:21:36   I think there needs to be one interface.

01:21:38   I think it's really confusing.

01:21:39   And then they need to embrace live TV.

01:21:41   They just really do.

01:21:43   Well, I mean, I think it's compelling that when they brought the TV app to the Mac and iPhone, iPad and stuff, right?

01:21:51   They didn't bring the home screen experience.

01:21:53   They brought the TV app experience.

01:21:55   Of course.

01:21:56   And I think they know that.

01:21:58   I do think TVOS is ahead of anything else.

01:22:02   It is.

01:22:04   As frustrating as it is, and as behind as some of its competitors it is in a few areas,

01:22:09   if I had to choose one of them today, and I have them all here,

01:22:13   I have no regrets about using TVOS.

01:22:18   I don't.

01:22:19   It is, I think, it has the best taste.

01:22:23   It has the lowest promotional marketing load.

01:22:26   It does most of what I need to do, but I do wish about the live TV and about the unified interface.

01:22:33   But it's pretty close to, I mean, I would say it's the best.

01:22:39   Although I would say, again, Amazon's shooting itself in the foot.

01:22:43   Otherwise, it's probably the best.

01:22:44   And Google, if I was an Android user, I'd probably just get a Google TV.

01:22:51   Because it's good.

01:22:51   It's good.

01:22:52   It's not, the thing I miss the most is the swiping on the remote, honestly, on the Google TV.

01:22:58   Because I use that, it turns out, all the time.

01:23:00   And I had to do a long scroll.

01:23:01   And I was like, click, click, click, click, click.

01:23:03   And I hold down the button, and it didn't make it scroll faster.

01:23:06   I'm like, oh my God.

01:23:07   And there's 600 channels.

01:23:08   It's like, I just got to sit here and press this button.

01:23:11   And on Apple TV, I'd be like, swipe, swipe, get it down there.

01:23:15   And that one hit me.

01:23:18   But anyway, I don't think it's a laggard in most ways.

01:23:22   It is a laggard on the OS side in a few ways.

01:23:25   And so if I'm reacting again to that Mark Herman story about they need, you know, they're going

01:23:30   to do a hardware refresh because they're a laggard.

01:23:32   It's like, the thing that makes Apple TV not a laggard is a software update, not the hardware.

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01:25:50   Steven, it's time for Ask Upgrade.

01:25:54   Zoom, zoom, zoom, zoom, zoom, zoom, zoom.

01:25:57   Okay.

01:25:58   Those are some hacket lasers.

01:26:00   I like it.

01:26:01   Thanks for the hacket lasers.

01:26:02   I should have practiced.

01:26:03   I'm sorry.

01:26:04   Those are more like truck lasers.

01:26:05   They're coming off your truck.

01:26:07   They got like a little, like a little big heavy thing that's hanging off your truck.

01:26:12   So they got to go.

01:26:12   Okay.

01:26:13   Yeah.

01:26:14   My lasers.

01:26:15   Get out of my way.

01:26:15   I don't know where my lasers are.

01:26:18   They're in the, in the cloud.

01:26:19   Lasers from clouds.

01:26:20   That's how it works.

01:26:21   Anonymous wrote in and said, Jason, what do you do about date metadata for the photos you scan in?

01:26:26   I want to scan in old photos and have them in chronological order in my photo library.

01:26:31   I actually did this with, uh, I'm thinking of doing this again with some more of them.

01:26:34   We scanned in a bunch of slides from Lauren's family and I just sent them to a slide scanning

01:26:39   company.

01:26:40   And, uh, it was amazing because they all come back and they're super high quality.

01:26:43   And, uh, and in the photos app, you can adjust dates.

01:26:48   You can actually select a big batch and, uh, and do a data just up in the menu and, and select

01:26:56   the whole batch and assign it to September 16th, 1971 or whatever.

01:27:01   And it'll just do it.

01:27:03   And, and so then what you end up doing, if you're like me, what you end up doing is playing

01:27:09   detective a little bit.

01:27:10   I did a lot.

01:27:11   Cause this is a Lauren's family, especially.

01:27:13   So I'm like, all right, when was your dad sent?

01:27:17   He looks like he's like, he's in the national guard and he got sent to somewhere.

01:27:24   And she's like, Oh, well that was, there was a hurricane in the Gulf coast.

01:27:27   And then I'm like on Google going, where was the hurricane in the Gulf coast?

01:27:30   And they sent the national guard and I'll get this number and it'll be like, it'll be like,

01:27:34   well, that was, that was September of 1969 or something like that.

01:27:39   And I'll be like, okay.

01:27:40   And I did a lot of that.

01:27:41   I'm like, Oh, how old, like all these pictures of my wife when she was a little kid.

01:27:45   And so I started playing the game of how old is she in this photo?

01:27:48   And then back basically dating that from her birth and saying, well, we'll say this is 1974.

01:27:53   And, and, uh, as a result, they're not perfect, right?

01:27:59   They're not perfect, but I, I was able to group all the events.

01:28:02   Oh, everybody had a, it's a, it's like a cookout and there's a happy birthday, Lauren fourth birthday.

01:28:07   And I'm like, okay, I know when that is roughly.

01:28:10   And I'll select all those photos and assign it or adjust it to that date.

01:28:14   And, uh, and after all of that, a little work, uh, some, some shoe leather included to figure it all out.

01:28:21   Um, I can scroll back in photos back to, you know, 1967 or whatever.

01:28:26   And it's basically in chronological order.

01:28:29   So that's what I recommend is doing it that way.

01:28:31   And I highly recommend if you've got lots of like, a lot of people have slides.

01:28:35   I mean, I, um, I, I, I don't remember what service I use.

01:28:41   Maybe I'll try to look that up and put it in the show notes, but I highly recommend this because nobody's looking at your slides.

01:28:46   And you know what, what people might look at if you put it in a digital library and you send it to your family and friends.

01:28:52   And if you show them off to your family members and like whole portions of my mother-in-law's life returned to life by scanning all those, all those slides that were just in a box in her garage.

01:29:03   So I definitely do recommend it.

01:29:06   Have you done anything like that, Steven?

01:29:07   Uh, I have.

01:29:08   Yeah.

01:29:09   I have not sent anything off to be scanned, but we've, you know, at times taken like, okay, we're gonna take the shoe box and scan them.

01:29:14   Um, I will say that is a complaint I have about the photos user interface.

01:29:18   Uh, first of all, you can, like you said, you can select multiple images and change their date all at once, but not from the inspector window.

01:29:27   You have to go to the menu item and do adjust time date, which is kind of frustrating.

01:29:32   Um, but that, that also is a very fiddly interface.

01:29:36   And like, if you accidentally tab out of it, it thinks that your photo, instead of being, you know, 2025, it's the year 25.

01:29:44   So it's like, puts it way back at the beginning.

01:29:47   It's like, no, this photo is not 2000 years old.

01:29:49   Like it could be a little smarter, but, uh, but it's doable.

01:29:53   Yeah, it does work.

01:29:54   Um, and, uh, scancafe.com is where I went.

01:29:58   And so all I can say is that I use them and it was very successful and, and even they have a, the, the option, which I really liked to like, okay, would you like us to send your slides back?

01:30:08   And I said, no, just put them in the garbage.

01:30:12   Cause I've got the digital versions and I do, I do not want part of this is I do not want boxes and boxes of slides back.

01:30:18   But also if you have, so I actually regret this cause my, my parents put a bunch of photos from my childhood in a book.

01:30:25   Um, and you used to get from the photo lab, you would get the negatives and the prints and the negatives seem to have disappeared, which is a bummer.

01:30:33   Because if you, if, if somebody saved those packages, even if they pulled the good prints out and put them in photo albums or whatever, if they saved those little paper packages that had the film negatives in them, you can take all those negatives and send them off to a scanning service.

01:30:49   And you will get, and what will happen is they took 30 pictures or 20 pictures and one of them went in a photo album and one of them went in a frame on the wall.

01:30:59   Yeah.

01:31:00   And the rest of them you've never seen or haven't seen since they came back from the, the, the supermarket.

01:31:06   Really different compared to today where everything is just together.

01:31:10   Yeah.

01:31:11   And, and people didn't take as many photos back then because the film was finite, but, but the idea that you would take 30 photos carefully.

01:31:19   But in the end, two or three might show up as beloved family memories.

01:31:23   And this happened to us with some of these slides too, where we're like, oh my God, here's this famous photo.

01:31:27   This, this happens with digital photos we've taken of our kids.

01:31:30   We're like, there's the one that went on the calendar and there's the one that went on the wall.

01:31:34   And then you look back, uh, Lauren's been doing this cause we, she's got a photo shuffle on her iPhone of our kids on a lot on the lock screen.

01:31:43   And it's fascinating because you get these photos that are the setting of a very familiar photo that we've marked as one of the best photos of our kids.

01:31:51   But it's not that photo.

01:31:52   It's from a little bit before or a little bit after and, and, and they're delightful.

01:31:57   Um, and certainly imagine then a photo from 40 or 50 years ago that nobody has seen in 40 or 50 years.

01:32:04   That is similar to photos maybe you've seen, but maybe not, maybe completely different.

01:32:10   And, and so, yes, I highly recommend if you've got slides, if you've got old film, um, to get that, you don't have to do it yourself because getting a slide scanner.

01:32:19   I mean, I had a slide scanner for a while.

01:32:20   I scanned in about a hundred photos and I was like, I can't do it.

01:32:23   It's so much work.

01:32:24   It gets real old, real fast.

01:32:26   And these services, they are, they are going to wash your film.

01:32:29   They got a, they got a whole like conveyor belt where they're going through.

01:32:32   They've got a system where they're, you know, making sure that the dust gets off of it.

01:32:36   It's, I, I, whether you scan cafe or something else, I highly recommend the, uh, you know, getting that stuff into digital form for your sake and everybody else in your family's sake, those old family photos.

01:32:48   Cause there, there, there are going to be some gems in there.

01:32:50   It's going to be amazing.

01:32:51   Jose wrote in.

01:32:54   And so what do you think is more important or what would be your preference for Apple to focus first on bringing down the price of the vision pro or keeping the price as is, but making the device smaller and weight less to be more comfortable.

01:33:06   What do you think?

01:33:07   I think I'm going to not really answer the question.

01:33:10   I think those are the same thing.

01:33:12   Like, I think a way that you bring the price down is to use materials that could be lighter, get rid of the goofy screen on the front, which are definitely make it cheaper and lighter and simpler.

01:33:22   And I think they've got to do both.

01:33:25   If I had to pick, I would probably choose price.

01:33:29   Yes.

01:33:29   But do them both.

01:33:32   But it needs to be both.

01:33:33   I agree.

01:33:33   I agree.

01:33:34   It needs to get the, if you're building the next generation vision pro, I'm less concerned.

01:33:41   I mean, put a, the latest M chip, you can stick in it.

01:33:43   That's fine.

01:33:44   But like make it lighter and more comfortable and make it cheaper.

01:33:47   And, and Mike and I talk about this a lot.

01:33:50   Like, you don't, it's not going to, the next vision pro isn't going to cost $800, right?

01:33:55   It's just not, but it should not cost 3,500.

01:33:59   Even if it's 2,500 or 2,000.

01:34:01   It's, this is a long term.

01:34:03   The only way vision pro is going to work is it, it's a product line that is leading somewhere and will eventually get there.

01:34:09   But it's super cutting edge.

01:34:11   And so, yeah, it just, it needs to be cheaper.

01:34:14   How much cheaper?

01:34:15   As cheap, as cheaper as you can make it, knowing that it's not going to be cheap, but as cheaper as you can make it.

01:34:20   And if you can make it lighter along the way, changing the materials or whatever, please do that too.

01:34:25   Because those are going to be, those are your two biggest impediments to people buying and using this thing are, they're not comfortable with it.

01:34:31   And they, they don't think it's worth the money.

01:34:33   I wasn't going to say they can't afford it because I think the people who are buying this thing can afford it.

01:34:37   But even then they're like, it's not worth it.

01:34:40   What do I get out of it?

01:34:41   And, and, um, and if, if there is a groundbreaking killer app, whether it's concerts or sports or whatever, that, that we settle on here where it's like, oh my God, now you can subscribe to this service and it's got all these Broadway shows in immersive, or it's got all the sports and immersive.

01:34:58   Okay.

01:34:59   If the ticket price is whatever that service costs, plus 3,500 or plus 2,000, 2,000 is going to sell more.

01:35:09   It's, it's not going to be a mass market product, but 2,000 is going to sell a lot more than 3,500.

01:35:13   So as far down as you can get it, the better.

01:35:15   I think.

01:35:15   Do you think it's going to weigh less now that Mike Rockwell isn't there?

01:35:20   I don't think the weight is Mike Rockwell.

01:35:23   I think it's Johnny Ive and his design team.

01:35:25   I feel like that first generation Vision Pro has the strong smell of idealized design decisions and philosophies that, uh, a hard core product person would like that.

01:35:42   The, the, the, the stitched, uh, back strap that doesn't really hold on most heads well versus what they, what Belkin shipped later.

01:35:50   Like that's a, I think that's a great example of somebody, I can hear Johnny Ive saying, oh, this 3d knitted, uh, fine strap is, is, uh, and it's, it's a beautiful piece of, uh, of, of art.

01:36:03   It is, it is a beautiful accessory, but it's totally impractical and it probably cost a fortune to make when all you really need is an adjustable two-way strap up there.

01:36:12   And they didn't ship that, which is kind of baffling.

01:36:15   So, um, so, well, I mean, they shipped the two-way strap and the single strap, but what Belkin shipped is a top strap to go with it.

01:36:24   Like, again, I feel like Johnny Ive and the design people there were like, okay, we've got a philosophy.

01:36:29   We want it to, we're going to put a screen on the front so you don't feel isolated.

01:36:32   And all these things that made the product, I think, less practical than it could be.

01:36:37   And I would love to see a more practical, less elegant version of the Vision Pro that's lighter and cheaper, honestly.

01:36:44   Yeah. And like the Siri stuff, none of that is fast, but part of me thinks like, well, with new leadership, they may have different priorities and what, what's important.

01:36:55   Um, also that was mostly just a joke about how rocks are heavy, but you answered the question anyways.

01:37:00   So Mike Rockwell, I see Rockwell, it was not very good.

01:37:03   Yeah.

01:37:04   I'm sorry.

01:37:05   Um, David writes, my kid is going off to college next year after using a Chromebook all through high school.

01:37:12   Obvious choice of the M4 MacBook Air, but I'm stuck on whether to upgrade to 24 gigs of RAM and possibly 500 gigs of storage.

01:37:17   I have no reason to believe this machine will be used for intensive 3D modeling or rendering large video files or photogrammetry, et cetera.

01:37:23   But I do want it to last for many years.

01:37:25   I've set aside the money and can't afford the upgrades, but I don't want to spend money unnecessarily.

01:37:30   Okay.

01:37:30   It's Mac talk, Steven.

01:37:31   What do you think?

01:37:32   Help David out.

01:37:33   Yeah.

01:37:33   I mean, the M4 MacBook Air is great.

01:37:35   My, my actual advice is find a refurbished M3 MacBook Air with more RAM and more storage because the CPU difference is not that great.

01:37:49   And thinking about something that's going to be used long term, uh, the storage feels important to me.

01:37:56   Just like thinking about what a lot of people typically do through college, maybe even after college, right?

01:38:01   You're out on your own, you know, family life, maybe potentially like, it just seems to me like the 256 could be limiting long term.

01:38:11   So if you've got like a top line budget, I look for a refurbished M3 with more storage and more memory.

01:38:19   I think 16 gigs is probably fine for a long time.

01:38:22   I think if you're really bent on an M4 and you're choosing between RAM and storage, I think I would choose storage, but I don't know.

01:38:31   I'm actually looking at the refurb store right now.

01:38:34   Yeah.

01:38:35   Um, because I, I agree with you, uh, that, I mean, M4 is great.

01:38:40   And, and if I had to answer this question directly, what I would say is I wouldn't worry too much about the RAM, but the storage you should upgrade.

01:38:46   Like if you're going to, if you're going to pay for an upgrade and you're only going to upgrade one, you should upgrade the storage because 256 look, if they're very cloud oriented, it may not matter, but it's so easy to blast through that.

01:38:57   And then you're, and then you're toting around an external drive on a laptop, which is less good.

01:39:02   Um, but yeah, Steven, I'm looking here.

01:39:04   You can get a mud, a midnight M3 as of this recording for nine 29.

01:39:11   And that comes with 16 unified and five 12 SSD and a refurb.

01:39:17   If people haven't done it, you get a full, you get an Apple warranty.

01:39:20   It's certified.

01:39:21   These are open box for the most part where they just, they, um, they get opened and then they get returned and Apple can't sell them as new or they got used for a little bit, but like Apple's going to stand by it.

01:39:32   But like a sub $900 MacBook air with 16 and five 12.

01:39:39   Yeah.

01:39:40   That's pretty good.

01:39:41   And all you're losing is that it's not an M4, but the difference between M3 and M4 is, you know, your kid is probably not going to run it lid open with two external devices.

01:39:50   internal monitors, right?

01:39:51   And the cores are fast.

01:39:53   It's a little bit faster, but again, they're so fast now that, that that's, so that's a good piece of advice.

01:39:58   Um, and then if you want to stick with the M4 and not go over the refurb route, I would say choose storage over.

01:40:04   Yeah.

01:40:05   I mean, you can do, uh, 24 gigabytes and 512 gigabytes of storage, uh, M3 for 10 99.

01:40:14   Like there, there are machines out there.

01:40:17   Yeah.

01:40:17   And the refurb store has great filters.

01:40:19   So you can do a Ram filter.

01:40:20   You can say, show me MacBook airs with this much storage and this much Ram.

01:40:23   And then you'll see like, there are a bunch of M2s and M3s there and they generally have pretty good deals.

01:40:27   It's worth looking.

01:40:29   And it does change over time.

01:40:31   So it may be that if your kid's going to cause next year, it may be, I mean, before long in a few months, there'll be M4 airs on the refurb store.

01:40:41   And so, uh, I would not count that out.

01:40:44   Um, and I think the other thing, it's not in the, it's not in the question, but I will just say this, having talked to a lot of listeners, probably worth the Apple care on a machine that's going to college just for the damage protection.

01:40:57   You know?

01:40:58   Yeah.

01:40:59   Yeah.

01:40:59   I know people feel differently about that, but it's like thinking about college kids, thinking about, you know, Oh man, may, may be worth it.

01:41:06   Maybe, maybe factor that into.

01:41:08   Yeah.

01:41:08   Well, and you know, your kid too, like my daughter is not hard on her computers.

01:41:12   My son is very hard on his computers.

01:41:15   So when we got the MacBook pro for him, we bought, we bought Apple care for, for that one.

01:41:19   Cause I was like, this is not going to, this, this, it's going to be, uh, that poor computer.

01:41:26   Um, uh, a couple more, these are, uh, these are targeted at Stephen Hackett.

01:41:32   So we're going to get them in now.

01:41:33   David says, I've been an Apple user for the majority of my adult life and I have never thrown away any of the boxes or packages.

01:41:38   My products have come in.

01:41:39   Do you have any suggestions or ideas on what to do with them?

01:41:43   We call this the, the school of John Syracuse.

01:41:46   Yeah.

01:41:47   And I am not in the school of John Syracuse.

01:41:49   Neither am I.

01:41:50   I am on many things, but not on this.

01:41:52   I've got hundreds of computers.

01:41:55   Like if you're watching on YouTube, this is a small fraction of my collection behind me.

01:41:58   The only boxes I keep are for things that are in current use.

01:42:03   So my current iPhone, my current MacBook pro, my wife's iPad, my kid's MacBook air.

01:42:08   And I do that very often because when we are done with a product,

01:42:13   I'll give it to a family member or occasionally I'll sell it and I want them to have the box.

01:42:17   And then it's up to them what they do with that.

01:42:19   But I don't have the box for my iPhone seven.

01:42:23   You know, I get some people from a collection standpoint want that.

01:42:27   I don't.

01:42:28   And I don't think it's worth the space if you're just doing it just to do it.

01:42:34   I mean, if you're doing it because you like them, like who am I to judge?

01:42:36   But if you're doing it just because you've never gotten rid of them, like you can, you can let them go.

01:42:41   It'll be okay.

01:42:41   I feel like there's a gradation here for me.

01:42:44   So if you don't have the product, you should get rid of the box.

01:42:50   If you do have the product and it's old, storing it in the box is a fun thing to do.

01:42:56   And then you've got it.

01:43:00   If you, if you don't have that product though, and you have the box, just the box should go away.

01:43:06   It should go away.

01:43:06   Um, and I'm with you.

01:43:09   I try other than if the box is too big, but I try to keep the boxes of the products that I have.

01:43:14   Um, because yes, you could, you could resell it.

01:43:17   I don't resell a lot of stuff witnessed by the iMac, uh, pro behind me.

01:43:23   I know.

01:43:23   Yeah.

01:43:23   In part, in part, because what happens is you use it and then you hold onto it a little bit

01:43:30   because it's still semi-current and I write about this stuff and it's very convenient to have.

01:43:35   Like the other day I had Jamie's hand-me-down, uh, last generation Intel MacBook air.

01:43:41   And I ran tests on it for my M4 MacBook air review and really nice to hold onto those things.

01:43:50   And then by the time you think I don't really need to hold onto this anymore, it's so old that

01:43:54   it's not even worth it.

01:43:55   So it's, it's a, it's a, our business makes this weirder, but I know like Dan Frakes, who

01:44:00   I used to work with at Mac world who works at Apple now, he always like keeps his boxes around,

01:44:05   uses the computer for a year or two and then resells it and buys the new one.

01:44:09   And the, the old one goes out with the pristine, like contents of the original box.

01:44:14   And that is a, that is a way to live.

01:44:16   If you have the storage space, I have a lot of stuff that doesn't have a box because I

01:44:20   don't, I used to have even less storage space that I knew that I do now.

01:44:24   It used to be this garage that I'm in right now was used for parking cars.

01:44:28   Yeah.

01:44:30   And finally we're like, we can't do it.

01:44:32   So we have storage in here and we have storage sheds outside.

01:44:34   Now we have more storage so I can store more stuff.

01:44:37   I have to store all my Apple owner boxes because those all go back in the boxes.

01:44:41   So I guess what I'm saying is don't, don't feel bad.

01:44:44   If you don't have room to store it, just, just recycle it and be done with it.

01:44:48   But if you want, I am a fan of the idea of storing the old stuff in a box.

01:44:53   If you have the old stuff and the box, but also if you don't have the predilection or,

01:44:58   or, I mean, the, the thing is what counts, not the box it came in.

01:45:02   Agreed.

01:45:03   Last note.

01:45:05   And this was definitely with your name on it.

01:45:07   Albert says, are you surprised the spinning beach ball on the Mac has never meaningly changed?

01:45:10   Albert.

01:45:12   Uh, it has changed.

01:45:14   It has.

01:45:14   But it has, uh, cause it used to be like glossy and aqua-y and now it's flat.

01:45:20   A couple of things come to mind.

01:45:22   One, like when's the last time you saw the spinning pinwheel, Jason?

01:45:26   Like I do see it every now and then in very particular circumstances, but it's rare.

01:45:31   It's very rare.

01:45:33   So you don't, you don't see it as much as you did back in the day.

01:45:35   Yeah.

01:45:36   Using weird apps or sometime if there's like a weird network issue, like I see it sometimes

01:45:40   if I take my laptop that is mostly connected and I open it up, not connected and it's not

01:45:45   on wifi and it's got an existing like network connection and it's like, whoa, what happened?

01:45:52   And you'll, it'll spin then, but it's pretty rare.

01:45:54   And that has been an issue in Mac OS for so long.

01:45:59   I don't understand it.

01:46:00   Yeah.

01:46:00   Uh, but I like it cause it is a throwback.

01:46:03   It's actually from next step.

01:46:05   So next step, if you look at this Wikipedia article, then I'm sure it'll be in the show

01:46:08   pinwheel, a Wikipedia article.

01:46:10   I love it.

01:46:11   Yeah.

01:46:11   It goes back to next step and it came over and, you know, it got aquified and now we have

01:46:20   it sort of the, the flat colorful thing we have today.

01:46:24   Flat version.

01:46:24   Yeah.

01:46:24   And so I, I like the Easter egg, you know, sort of vibes with it.

01:46:29   So no, I, I think it's fantastic.

01:46:31   Yeah.

01:46:31   It keeps, it keeps changing with the times, uh, Albert.

01:46:34   Yeah.

01:46:34   And I will also say that if you go back to classic Mac OS, uh, different apps had their

01:46:40   own custom animated icons there.

01:46:42   Oh yeah.

01:46:43   And so you've got it in that, and there's a, uh, uh, link I'll put in the show notes

01:46:47   for this one too.

01:46:48   They used to have like the counting hand where a hand would literally like count on its fingers

01:46:54   while you were waiting.

01:46:56   They had a, the watch cursor.

01:46:58   So it would show a watch and the watch face could move.

01:47:01   They had a spinning, spinning globe that you would see in some apps and HyperCard had a

01:47:06   beach ball similar to the, the spinning pinwheel.

01:47:09   So there, there have been many weight cursers over the years and, uh, it's a, it's never reached

01:47:15   the point of, uh, of a kind of cult status that some did.

01:47:18   In fact, isn't there, wasn't there a, uh, an app that had a dog cow that did a backflip.

01:47:23   I feel like fetch or it was a dog.

01:47:26   Cause it was fetch.

01:47:27   It was a dog.

01:47:27   Fetch's weight cursor was a dog that was,

01:47:31   maybe similar to the dog cow, a dog that did, uh, backflips as you waited for your file

01:47:36   to download or upload.

01:47:37   Or maybe it was running to do backflips.

01:47:40   I don't remember.

01:47:40   I used to fetch for years.

01:47:41   I remember a dog doing flips.

01:47:43   Yeah.

01:47:44   We'll go with that.

01:47:44   So there's a great, a tradition of weight cursors out there.

01:47:47   Um, anyway, thank you.

01:47:50   Just take an ad in there, you know?

01:47:52   Amazon will.

01:47:53   Amazon will.

01:47:54   And Microsoft might.

01:47:55   Um, we are, we have reached the end.

01:47:58   Thank you, Stephen Hackett for filling in for Mike Hurley today.

01:48:02   I appreciate it.

01:48:03   Thank you for having me.

01:48:05   This will blow a hole in my weekly podcast listening.

01:48:07   Cause I was on the show, but that's okay.

01:48:09   I'm glad to fill in.

01:48:10   Well, thank you for listening to upgrade, uh, normally, but you don't have to listen to this

01:48:15   episode.

01:48:16   Cause you've already heard it.

01:48:17   I've heard it before anyone else besides you, you were a participant in it.

01:48:22   So that's, that's pretty good.

01:48:23   Um, thanks to everybody out there for listening.

01:48:25   You can send us your feedback, follow-up and questions at upgradefeedback.com.

01:48:28   Thank you to our members who support us with upgrade plus this week, Stephen and I are going

01:48:32   to talk a little bit about, uh, whether Apple is peak Apple or beleaguered Apple.

01:48:37   And we might also talk about domain dumb domains.

01:48:40   We bought, we'll see how that goes.

01:48:42   Get upgrade plus.com to get upgrade plus and you get an ad free version of the show

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01:48:52   Thank you to our sponsors this week.

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01:48:58   Once again, thank you all for listening.

01:49:00   And with yet another guest, I will see you next week.

01:49:12   Thank you.