Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► From Relay, this is Connected, episode 552. Today's show is brought to you by FitBot and Ecamm.

00:00:14 ◼   ► I am your keynote chairman, Mike Hurley, and I have the pleasure of introducing keynote chairman,

00:00:20 ◼   ► annual chairman, Federico Vattici. Keynote annual, annual keynote chairman, Federico Vattici.

00:00:27 ◼   ► Hi, Federico. Hello, I'm back. I missed you guys. Really good show. I actually finished

00:00:32 ◼   ► listening last night, but now I'm back. I'm here, fully seated, not in the car, so I'm ready.

00:00:38 ◼   ► Excellent. Yeah, you were stuck in traffic for the entire recording of last week's episode.

00:00:44 ◼   ► And even longer than that, actually. And further, yeah. Past the post-show, everything.

00:00:48 ◼   ► Yes. And we're also joined by Steven. That's just your name.

00:00:54 ◼   ► Well, WWC is coming up, and I could take the keynote chairman away from Mike.

00:01:00 ◼   ► Yeah, but you won't know, so it's fine. So your Steven rhymes with even. Stefan rhymes with farm

00:01:08 ◼   ► wrote in again and said that they would like to explain themselves. What they should have said is

00:01:13 ◼   ► the A sounds more like the A in farm than the A in hand. Oh.

00:01:18 ◼   ► So it's like Stefan rather than Stefan. So it's not Stefarm also. That was also on my mind.

00:01:24 ◼   ► I mean, it could be. It still could be. Unsure. Maybe there's an autocorrect going on.

00:01:29 ◼   ► Stefan. So it's kind of like Stefan from SNL, but okay, with an A. Interesting.

00:01:35 ◼   ► There is an additional piece of this follow-up that I didn't put in our show notes, but was

00:01:39 ◼   ► in our follow-up feedback system, where they said the reason I'm doing this is because of

00:01:43 ◼   ► this. And they sent in a clip to a previous piece of feedback that they gave us where we

00:01:47 ◼   ► called them Stefan rather than Stefan. But Stefan, you've got to be better with your phonetics

00:01:56 ◼   ► for us. That's right. Last week, we spoke about EdiQ just saying stuff on the stand, including

00:02:04 ◼   ► that Safari browser searches had declined for the first time in April of 2025. I'll give you

00:02:10 ◼   ► one guess what maybe search company was not happy about that. Was it Ask Jeeves?

00:02:16 ◼   ► They are furious over that. Duck, duck, duck, duck, duck, duck, duck, go.

00:02:21 ◼   ► Duck, duck, go.

00:02:22 ◼   ► They called EdiQ a... Never mind.

00:02:26 ◼   ► Goose.

00:02:26 ◼   ► Google had a blog post. The headline of this blog post is the funniest thing I've ever read.

00:02:33 ◼   ► Here's the... On blog.google... I was trying to like read a .com, but there's not one. Just

00:02:40 ◼   ► blog.google. Here's our statement on this morning's press reports about search traffic.

00:02:44 ◼   ► Who are they talking to?

00:02:46 ◼   ► That's the name. That's how they titled the blog post. What?

00:02:51 ◼   ► Who are they talking to?

00:02:52 ◼   ► Who wrote that?

00:02:54 ◼   ► Hey. It's like, it makes you say, hey.

00:02:56 ◼   ► Hey.

00:02:57 ◼   ► Hey, here's what we have to say.

00:02:58 ◼   ► Hey.

00:02:59 ◼   ► Hey.

00:02:59 ◼   ► Yeah. Hey, you're talking about me? Huh?

00:03:02 ◼   ► Huh?

00:03:03 ◼   ► Huh?

00:03:03 ◼   ► I want to read from the beginning of this thing.

00:03:07 ◼   ► This is a single paragraph.

00:03:08 ◼   ► Incredible.

00:03:09 ◼   ► On the blog.

00:03:10 ◼   ► We continue to see overall query growth in search. That includes an increase in total queries

00:03:16 ◼   ► coming from Apple's devices and platforms. More generally, as we enhance search of new

00:03:20 ◼   ► features, people are seeing that Google search is more useful for more of their queries, and

00:03:25 ◼   ► they're accessing it for new things and in new ways, whether from browsers or the Google

00:03:29 ◼   ► app or using their voice or Google lens.

00:03:31 ◼   ► Okay.

00:03:34 ◼   ► I mean, so what they're saying is, oh, I don't know what you're talking about. People

00:03:38 ◼   ► love the Google app that we force them to use. I think that's what they're actually saying.

00:03:42 ◼   ► Do you guys get this too when you Google things? And it's like, why don't you just continue this

00:03:46 ◼   ► in the Google app instead? Do you get this on your phones?

00:03:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:03:50 ◼   ► Yeah, it's super annoying.

00:03:51 ◼   ► It's really annoying, and I hate it. I know why they're doing it. I don't begrudge them

00:03:56 ◼   ► for doing it in a way, but I just wish they would stop. Like, they're doing it because they're

00:04:00 ◼   ► scared that this is all going to be taken away, right? That's why they're doing it. And I guess

00:04:05 ◼   ► it's working because this may be the reason that the searches are going down in Safari, although

00:04:13 ◼   ► I don't actually think that's the reason. I think that the reason is the obvious one.

00:04:17 ◼   ► But it's funny. It's funny.

00:04:20 ◼   ► That has been our statement on last week's press report about search traffic.

00:04:26 ◼   ► Hey.

00:04:27 ◼   ► Hey.

00:04:28 ◼   ► Here's what we have to say. Federico, you missed last week's show, so we didn't get any teachy

00:04:32 ◼   ► takes. Do you have anything that you want to add to the discussion over the App Store commission

00:04:40 ◼   ► stuff?

00:04:40 ◼   ► You did a really good job. Between you, between John on App Stories, and also the excellent episode

00:04:47 ◼   ► of upgrade. I don't really feel like I have anything else to add beyond, you know, how stupid

00:04:54 ◼   ► can you be not to do what the judge tells you to do? Like, what a mess. And also, it's been

00:05:01 ◼   ► lovely to see the consequences of this, you know, just being able to have, you know, subscriptions

00:05:10 ◼   ► in the Patreon app or Spotify. You know, all these folks that are now free Kindle books. Like,

00:05:17 ◼   ► it's been just the pleasure of seeing the consequences of this. Yeah, it's been really nice. I don't

00:05:26 ◼   ► really feel like I personally have anything else to add beyond, yeah, good job, you know?

00:05:34 ◼   ► Something I've been thinking about is, like, we really are just seeing, like, the tip of

00:05:39 ◼   ► the iceberg with this, I feel like, right? Because I think there are a lot of companies, big and

00:05:45 ◼   ► small, who are maybe holding fire on this one to see if, like, the appeal goes through or

00:05:52 ◼   ► not. And, like, and if that appeal fails, I just don't know what the next five years looks like.

00:05:59 ◼   ► Like, it's going to be really interesting to see how it all unfolds in the long term.

00:06:05 ◼   ► Yeah. I can tell you from the developer perspective, RevenueCat and Superwall and some others have had

00:06:11 ◼   ► blog posts about, you know, hey, if you're running experiments, like, what does it look like to send

00:06:16 ◼   ► people out to the web? And, you know, it's very early data, right? Because it's only been possible

00:06:20 ◼   ► for a couple weeks. But generally, I think what people are finding is that conversions are down.

00:06:28 ◼   ► Like, if you lose some amount of people when they go to the web. But obviously, if you don't drop the

00:06:34 ◼   ► price, you're making more money. And I think, like, I was just, you know, thinking about what that would

00:06:43 ◼   ► look like if this happens in mass. And I can tell you, like, most developers are not going to take 30%

00:06:49 ◼   ► off their price. They're just going to keep that 30%, right? Like, why would you, why would you reduce

00:06:55 ◼   ► what you're charging?

00:06:56 ◼   ► I don't think they should reduce it.

00:06:58 ◼   ► I don't either.

00:06:58 ◼   ► I think, like, this is the price that their customers are willing to pay. Apple have taken from that. Now,

00:07:05 ◼   ► they should be able to get it back again. Like, I think some of the very large companies,

00:07:11 ◼   ► it benefits them to lower the price, right? Because they, they, they really want to convince

00:07:16 ◼   ► people to use their system rather than Apple's.

00:07:18 ◼   ► Exactly. And even if you reduce it by 10 or 15%, you can say, hey, if you go through us,

00:07:23 ◼   ► you know, we can cut you a better deal or you can get this promo for a few months. Like,

00:07:27 ◼   ► you have plenty of opportunities. You don't need to reduce it by 30%. Even if you just cut it down

00:07:32 ◼   ► by 15, that's enough. You know, when people see a lower price, they'll just say, I'm not stupid.

00:07:36 ◼   ► I'm going to go for the lower price.

00:07:38 ◼   ► And then it will be really interesting to see in the long term, what those, like,

00:07:42 ◼   ► what is the actual loss of conversion compared to the amount of money that you gain?

00:07:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:07:50 ◼   ► And also, like, my expectation is, I mean, I know we all have a vague idea of how these

00:07:54 ◼   ► kinds of things work. That conversion rate will get better over time as the tools get better.

00:07:58 ◼   ► I think so, too.

00:07:58 ◼   ► Revenue Cat is in their biggest interest. All of the Stripe, all of the companies that will

00:08:03 ◼   ► eventually, Epic, all the companies that will provide these tools, the number one thing they

00:08:08 ◼   ► can do is to increase the conversion rate. However, they're going to do it. Yeah.

00:08:12 ◼   ► Stephen, you may not want to answer this one or another, but my assumption is that a lot of these

00:08:17 ◼   ► companies are just banging down the doors of developers right now.

00:08:20 ◼   ► Oh, yeah.

00:08:21 ◼   ► I imagine Revenue Cat is just sitting outside of the park cabin. It's like, come on, put it in.

00:08:28 ◼   ► I opened the door to the garage to get in the truck, and Charlie Chapman was just in the front seat.

00:08:33 ◼   ► Like, hey!

00:08:33 ◼   ► Nice happy you got there.

00:08:36 ◼   ► Nice. Hey, I'd love to do some conversions. So, yeah, it's early days, right? And again,

00:08:43 ◼   ► like, this may not last the way that it is. And like, then what does that look like? But

00:08:47 ◼   ► there are definitely people making hay when the sun is shining or whatever the phrase is, but

00:08:53 ◼   ► it's definitely rocky and definitely early days, but it's very interesting. I mean, I said this on

00:09:00 ◼   ► Backstage, which is the members-only show that Mike and I do. Like, Mike, you came back from your

00:09:05 ◼   ► paternity leave into the most interesting story or potentially the most impactful story, I'll say that,

00:09:12 ◼   ► since we've covered Apple. Like, if this holds, it changes so much about the company and its control over

00:09:21 ◼   ► the App Store in a way that's like, we just haven't seen a shift like this before.

00:09:24 ◼   ► And we're not saying those things are related.

00:09:27 ◼   ► But maybe if you have...

00:09:30 ◼   ► But maybe.

00:09:30 ◼   ► But maybe if you have another baby at some point, you know, who knows what could happen.

00:09:34 ◼   ► Apple gives developers 30%.

00:09:37 ◼   ► It stacks.

00:09:40 ◼   ► It just keeps stacking.

00:09:40 ◼   ► An extra 30%. Like, hey, you sold this subscription for $10. Here's 13.

00:09:45 ◼   ► We're just going to give you $3. We're just going to give it to you. That's for you. That's from us to you.

00:09:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:09:52 ◼   ► A while ago, somebody wrote into our feedback form under the name NotMarkGerman and said,

00:09:58 ◼   ► iPadOS is getting live window resizing and positioning, similar to macOS and visionOS.

00:10:02 ◼   ► We read that as a joke because we thought it was funny, because it was in relation to Federico

00:10:08 ◼   ► saying that he was pulling back from iPadOS again.

00:10:11 ◼   ► And then, like, two weeks later, Mark German reported information similar to this.

00:10:16 ◼   ► The real Mark German.

00:10:17 ◼   ► Not Mark German has written in again.

00:10:18 ◼   ► So this time, I'm now treating it...

00:10:21 ◼   ► The Oracle is back.

00:10:22 ◼   ► I'm now treating it with a little bit more importance than before.

00:10:26 ◼   ► If this is the same person, or if this is anything, I don't know.

00:10:29 ◼   ► And they said, iPadOS is getting a triangular pointer when the magic keyboard is in use

00:10:36 ◼   ► for easier targeting of UI elements than the existing circular pointer, which is terrible for text selection.

00:10:42 ◼   ► Triangular?

00:10:44 ◼   ► Well, I mean, the Mac one is triangular, right?

00:10:48 ◼   ► Yeah, I think it's like a regular cursor.

00:10:50 ◼   ► Right?

00:10:51 ◼   ► Oh, so a cursor.

00:10:52 ◼   ► No, but it could just be a triangle, but angled in such a way that it's more obvious to see

00:10:56 ◼   ► where you're clicking, you know?

00:10:57 ◼   ► Okay, I see.

00:10:59 ◼   ► I see.

00:10:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:11:00 ◼   ► Right.

00:11:00 ◼   ► Okay, cool.

00:11:01 ◼   ► I have a theory to share.

00:11:03 ◼   ► Okay.

00:11:04 ◼   ► So I'm actually going to read the first half of this exactly as it was written, because you

00:11:08 ◼   ► tweaked it as you were reading it.

00:11:09 ◼   ► Ah.

00:11:10 ◼   ► The actual writing is iPad...

00:11:12 ◼   ► Release the not Mark German cut.

00:11:15 ◼   ► iPad is getting triangular pointer when magic keyboard is in use.

00:11:19 ◼   ► There are no articles for iPad and magic keyboard.

00:11:22 ◼   ► Oh, this is someone from Apple.

00:11:24 ◼   ► This person knows what's up.

00:11:25 ◼   ► iPad is getting triangular pointer when magic keyboard...

00:11:30 ◼   ► I see what you're saying.

00:11:31 ◼   ► Not the iPad.

00:11:33 ◼   ► Not iPadOS.

00:11:34 ◼   ► Or iPadOS, which is what I said.

00:11:37 ◼   ► Because my brain was like, let me change this because it's written poorly.

00:11:40 ◼   ► No, it's written the Apple way, which is a poor way of speaking like a human being.

00:11:44 ◼   ► 4K, no list of us.

00:11:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:11:46 ◼   ► Interesting.

00:11:47 ◼   ► By the way, what I was just saying is, talking about terrible text selection, let me tell you

00:11:51 ◼   ► where terrible text selection exists.

00:11:53 ◼   ► Android.

00:11:54 ◼   ► Oh my God, how still?

00:11:55 ◼   ► Oh yeah, it's bad.

00:11:56 ◼   ► It's bad.

00:11:57 ◼   ► But...

00:11:57 ◼   ► Trying to paste something.

00:11:59 ◼   ► It's like, impossible.

00:12:00 ◼   ► But will you agree with me, Mike?

00:12:03 ◼   ► Will you agree with me?

00:12:04 ◼   ► The text selection is bad.

00:12:05 ◼   ► However, typing with the keyboard is so much better than the iOS one?

00:12:10 ◼   ► I mean, as a swipe...

00:12:13 ◼   ► I'm a swipe typer, right?

00:12:14 ◼   ► So like, for me, they're much and much the same.

00:12:17 ◼   ► But I do like it.

00:12:18 ◼   ► I like their split keyboard a lot in the fold.

00:12:21 ◼   ► The autocorrect, for me, is like, leagues beyond the iOS one.

00:12:25 ◼   ► Yes.

00:12:26 ◼   ► Okay.

00:12:26 ◼   ► Oh my God.

00:12:26 ◼   ► I'm going to pay more attention to that.

00:12:27 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:12:28 ◼   ► I'll pay more attention to that.

00:12:31 ◼   ► Hey!

00:12:33 ◼   ► This was the quizzes I prepared last week, but Federico wasn't here.

00:12:39 ◼   ► Welcome back to the quizzes, everyone.

00:12:41 ◼   ► This is a quiz show within a podcast where I, Mike Hurley, quiz my connected co-hosts randomly

00:12:46 ◼   ► and by surprise on a variety of varying subjects.

00:12:51 ◼   ► We've been talking a lot about services.

00:12:53 ◼   ► I have eight questions for you boys related to Apple's services, products, division, etc.

00:13:01 ◼   ► In 2025, we've only played one round of the quizzes and Stephen is currently in the lead

00:13:07 ◼   ► of 150 points to Federico's 100 points.

00:13:10 ◼   ► There are eight questions on offer today.

00:13:12 ◼   ► There are 25 points per correct answer.

00:13:16 ◼   ► As the current leader, Stephen, you get to choose whether you would like to answer questions

00:13:21 ◼   ► first or second, but we will be doing the snake draft style, so you don't need to get that

00:13:27 ◼   ► for the first round.

00:13:28 ◼   ► So if you answer second, you'll answer first in the subsequent round, etc., etc.

00:13:35 ◼   ► I will go second.

00:13:36 ◼   ► All right.

00:13:37 ◼   ► Question number one.

00:13:39 ◼   ► So Federico, you are answering first.

00:13:41 ◼   ► In what year did Apple announce the small business program for developers?

00:13:47 ◼   ► Oh my God.

00:13:49 ◼   ► What year?

00:13:54 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

00:13:54 ◼   ► 2019.

00:13:56 ◼   ► Stephen?

00:13:59 ◼   ► I not only know the year, I know the month.

00:14:03 ◼   ► Oh my God.

00:14:04 ◼   ► Because I've been preparing for the Rickies, and I've been thinking, like, would Apple announce

00:14:10 ◼   ► something before WWDC?

00:14:11 ◼   ► And I wondered, what things have they done that before?

00:14:14 ◼   ► The small business program not announced before WWDC, but it was announced in November of 2020.

00:14:20 ◼   ► That is absolutely 100% correct.

00:14:24 ◼   ► Incredible.

00:14:25 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm a friggin' nerd.

00:14:26 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:14:27 ◼   ► What are the chances that Stephen has already researched this question?

00:14:31 ◼   ► Yeah, that is really weird.

00:14:33 ◼   ► Why were you looking up the small business program?

00:14:35 ◼   ► No, no, I was looking for examples, because, like, I'm thinking about the Rickies.

00:14:39 ◼   ► Sure.

00:14:40 ◼   ► And I'm thinking, Apple is in a mountain of hurt with developers.

00:14:43 ◼   ► What have they announced in that run-up to WWDC in the past?

00:14:47 ◼   ► And I thought, oh, the small business thing, that was probably right before WWDC, but it

00:14:52 ◼   ► wasn't.

00:14:52 ◼   ► It was in November of 2020 when other things were happening.

00:14:57 ◼   ► I did just check, and Federico, you'll be happy to know this, Stephen does not have access

00:15:01 ◼   ► to the spreadsheet.

00:15:02 ◼   ► Okay.

00:15:02 ◼   ► Look, I've started strong.

00:15:05 ◼   ► It probably won't continue.

00:15:06 ◼   ► Well, Stephen, you're up next.

00:15:08 ◼   ► I want you to name the three tiers of Apple I.

00:15:13 ◼   ► The three tiers of Apple?

00:15:15 ◼   ► The tiers of Apple?

00:15:16 ◼   ► Oh.

00:15:16 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:15:18 ◼   ► Right?

00:15:18 ◼   ► It was a surprise to me to remember this.

00:15:20 ◼   ► There are three tiers.

00:15:21 ◼   ► Okay.

00:15:21 ◼   ► What are their names?

00:15:22 ◼   ► There's...

00:15:23 ◼   ► There's Premiere at the top?

00:15:27 ◼   ► Yes, I agree, actually.

00:15:30 ◼   ► That's one.

00:15:32 ◼   ► Personal, Family, Premiere.

00:15:37 ◼   ► Okay.

00:15:39 ◼   ► Federico?

00:15:40 ◼   ► I think he's right on Family and Premiere.

00:15:43 ◼   ► Hmm.

00:15:46 ◼   ► Is it called Apple I Personal?

00:15:48 ◼   ► I mean, if they have Family, though.

00:15:51 ◼   ► Or is it just called Apple I?

00:15:54 ◼   ► Oh, I didn't even think about that.

00:15:56 ◼   ► One name couldn't...

00:15:57 ◼   ► No, there are three distinct names.

00:15:59 ◼   ► Three distinct names.

00:15:59 ◼   ► There are three distinct names, yeah.

00:16:00 ◼   ► Apple I has three tiers.

00:16:02 ◼   ► They all have their own name.

00:16:03 ◼   ► Okay.

00:16:04 ◼   ► So, it's either Personal or Individual.

00:16:07 ◼   ► I will go with Personal.

00:16:11 ◼   ► Defeat snatched from the jaws of victory there

00:16:15 ◼   ► as it is Individual, Family and Premiere.

00:16:18 ◼   ► I was so excited for you, Federico.

00:16:21 ◼   ► Oh, my God.

00:16:23 ◼   ► Okay.

00:16:23 ◼   ► Federico, you get the chance to answer this question first.

00:16:27 ◼   ► Which tier of Apple I is the most expensive

00:16:30 ◼   ► out of Individual, Family or Premiere?

00:16:32 ◼   ► Wait, what?

00:16:33 ◼   ► What?

00:16:34 ◼   ► Which tier is the most expensive?

00:16:36 ◼   ► Individual, Family or Premiere?

00:16:38 ◼   ► Ah, this is a trick question.

00:16:41 ◼   ► Because you would think Premiere.

00:16:44 ◼   ► Hmm.

00:16:48 ◼   ► Yeah, I would say that the Family is more expensive.

00:16:51 ◼   ► Steven?

00:16:52 ◼   ► Premiere.

00:16:55 ◼   ► Premiere is the correct answer.

00:16:57 ◼   ► Oh, my God.

00:16:58 ◼   ► Because Premiere includes Family.

00:17:00 ◼   ► Oh, yeah.

00:17:01 ◼   ► I mean, it's just like, it's so confusing.

00:17:03 ◼   ► All right, so, so far.

00:17:05 ◼   ► This is a horrible game.

00:17:07 ◼   ► Okay.

00:17:07 ◼   ► Three questions down.

00:17:09 ◼   ► Steven has 50 points.

00:17:10 ◼   ► Federico has zero points.

00:17:12 ◼   ► Okay.

00:17:12 ◼   ► Steven, in what country did Apple first launch Apple Pay

00:17:16 ◼   ► outside of the USA?

00:17:20 ◼   ► The United Kingdom.

00:17:21 ◼   ► Federico?

00:17:22 ◼   ► Yeah, the UK.

00:17:24 ◼   ► You both get 25 points.

00:17:25 ◼   ► They announced it with, like, it was very heavily focused on the London Underground.

00:17:31 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:17:32 ◼   ► The funny thing about that is everybody had to wear their, in the promo images, everyone

00:17:37 ◼   ► had to wear their watches on their right arms because the turnstiles are on the right side.

00:17:42 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:17:42 ◼   ► Which is just like, it's just like a very weird image that everybody's wearing their watch on

00:17:46 ◼   ► their right arm because it's the only way to make it look good in the imagery.

00:17:50 ◼   ► Otherwise, you're crossing over on your body.

00:17:52 ◼   ► It was awkward when I was there this summer.

00:17:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:17:55 ◼   ► Like, trying to pay.

00:17:56 ◼   ► I used my phone.

00:17:56 ◼   ► I ended up using my phone, too.

00:17:58 ◼   ► Yep.

00:17:58 ◼   ► Wait, I don't get it.

00:18:00 ◼   ► What's awkward about it?

00:18:01 ◼   ► Can't you just use it?

00:18:02 ◼   ► So, if you wear your watch on your left arm and the turnstile's on the right of you,

00:18:06 ◼   ► you have to, like, you have to stretch over your body to touch your watch.

00:18:10 ◼   ► That's not a difficult movement to perform?

00:18:12 ◼   ► It's not difficult, but it looks bad in imagery.

00:18:14 ◼   ► Like, if you're from a, like, oh, we want to show how easy this is for you to get through

00:18:18 ◼   ► the turnstile, it's just way easier if you just use your right arm.

00:18:23 ◼   ► All right.

00:18:23 ◼   ► All right.

00:18:24 ◼   ► Marketing people overthink stuff, I'm telling you.

00:18:26 ◼   ► That's what marketing people are all about.

00:18:29 ◼   ► I believe, Federico, you're answering this question first.

00:18:32 ◼   ► What was the maximum iCloud storage size a user could have when it launched in 2011?

00:18:40 ◼   ► Jeez.

00:18:44 ◼   ► That is incredibly specific.

00:18:48 ◼   ► The maximum iCloud storage size that one user could have when it launched in 2011.

00:18:56 ◼   ► Could you always pay for additional iCloud plans?

00:19:00 ◼   ► I will give you the answer to that, which is yes.

00:19:02 ◼   ► So, for sure, there was not a one terabyte plan.

00:19:07 ◼   ► In 2011?

00:19:08 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:19:10 ◼   ► I'm saying there was not a one terabyte.

00:19:14 ◼   ► I'm thinking.

00:19:14 ◼   ► I'm thinking out loud.

00:19:16 ◼   ► There wasn't a one terabyte plan.

00:19:17 ◼   ► Sort of lean 100 gigabytes.

00:19:20 ◼   ► I'm going to say 100 gigabytes.

00:19:22 ◼   ► Okay.

00:19:23 ◼   ► Steven?

00:19:23 ◼   ► First of all, the free tier, still the same as in 2011.

00:19:33 ◼   ► 100 seems high.

00:19:39 ◼   ► I'll say 50.

00:19:40 ◼   ► Close.

00:19:42 ◼   ► 55 gigabytes was the overall amount that you could have because you would add 50 to your five.

00:19:47 ◼   ► Okay.

00:19:49 ◼   ► That one I was being...

00:19:52 ◼   ► That's not how I interpreted the question, but I accept my faith.

00:19:54 ◼   ► I said the maximum iCloud storage size a user could have.

00:19:57 ◼   ► Yeah, no, no, no.

00:19:57 ◼   ► I get it.

00:19:57 ◼   ► Yeah, I get it.

00:19:59 ◼   ► All right, Steven.

00:20:00 ◼   ► When the App Store launched in 2008, how many apps did Apple claim were on the store?

00:20:06 ◼   ► At launch?

00:20:08 ◼   ► At launch.

00:20:09 ◼   ► When the App Store launched in 2008, how many apps did Apple claim were on the store?

00:20:15 ◼   ► Is this closest wins?

00:20:22 ◼   ► Sure.

00:20:24 ◼   ► 100,000.

00:20:27 ◼   ► Okay, Federico.

00:20:28 ◼   ► When the App Store launched?

00:20:31 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:20:32 ◼   ► So, on day one?

00:20:34 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:20:35 ◼   ► And Steven said 100,000.

00:20:37 ◼   ► Steven said 100,000.

00:20:39 ◼   ► When you say it that way, I don't.

00:20:41 ◼   ► Steven said 100,000 apps, yeah.

00:20:45 ◼   ► Okay, 3,000.

00:20:46 ◼   ► Okay, Federico wins, but neither of you were close at all.

00:20:50 ◼   ► It was 500.

00:20:50 ◼   ► Oh!

00:20:52 ◼   ► Okay.

00:20:56 ◼   ► 100,000 apps!

00:20:58 ◼   ► Hang on, I'm going to look at something.

00:20:59 ◼   ► 100,000 developers in 2008.

00:21:01 ◼   ► Is there another question about the App Store launch?

00:21:04 ◼   ► No.

00:21:06 ◼   ► Okay.

00:21:06 ◼   ► Why do you want to know?

00:21:07 ◼   ► Because I want to look at something, because I remember a number.

00:21:10 ◼   ► Okay, here it is.

00:21:11 ◼   ► Press release from July 14th.

00:21:14 ◼   ► iPhone App Store downloads top 10 million in the first weekend.

00:21:19 ◼   ► Yeah, but that's not it at all.

00:21:21 ◼   ► That's not what we're talking about.

00:21:23 ◼   ► But, I mean, that over 500 apps is, like, bananas.

00:21:25 ◼   ► Yeah, people got real rich if they were in there at the beginning.

00:21:28 ◼   ► I know.

00:21:28 ◼   ► These are the glory days people think about.

00:21:31 ◼   ► All right, the next question, Federico, you're answering first.

00:21:35 ◼   ► In what year did Apple introduce the ability for apps to offer subscriptions directly through the App Store?

00:21:46 ◼   ► I'm torn between two years.

00:21:54 ◼   ► Okay.

00:21:54 ◼   ► I'm going to say 2016.

00:21:57 ◼   ► Do you mean all apps or just, like, newspapers and stuff?

00:22:02 ◼   ► Let's say all apps while I click my link to check the answer.

00:22:08 ◼   ► 16 seems too late to me.

00:22:11 ◼   ► 2012?

00:22:15 ◼   ► 2012?

00:22:16 ◼   ► Um, now that you've, so, okay.

00:22:21 ◼   ► I want to read you a quote here.

00:22:23 ◼   ► Okay.

00:22:23 ◼   ► I want to get the two of you to give, okay.

00:22:26 ◼   ► In 2011, the App Store started supporting subscription apps, and by 2016, it expanded support to all 25 of its categories.

00:22:33 ◼   ► That's what I was thinking of.

00:22:35 ◼   ► It was a 2016 announcement, like, before WWDC, if I'm not mistaken.

00:22:39 ◼   ► Yeah, I think he gets that.

00:22:40 ◼   ► I think he's closer to truth than me.

00:22:42 ◼   ► Because now that you've said that, I think maybe that 2011 number was newspapers or something.

00:22:50 ◼   ► So, I'm giving, Federica, I'm giving you those points.

00:22:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:22:53 ◼   ► You get 25 points.

00:22:54 ◼   ► You're now 75-75.

00:22:55 ◼   ► And so, Stephen, I will ask you this question first.

00:23:01 ◼   ► Which version of iOS introduced App Clips?

00:23:05 ◼   ► The very popular.

00:23:09 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:23:10 ◼   ► Very popular feature.

00:23:12 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:12 ◼   ► App Clips.

00:23:14 ◼   ► I'm going to say 2020.

00:23:20 ◼   ► That's not a version of iOS.

00:23:21 ◼   ► Oh.

00:23:22 ◼   ► iOS 2020.

00:23:24 ◼   ► You're just saying stuff now.

00:23:28 ◼   ► You want to give that one another go?

00:23:30 ◼   ► I do.

00:23:31 ◼   ► Excuse me.

00:23:35 ◼   ► So, that would have been iOS 14 in 2020?

00:23:39 ◼   ► Okay.

00:23:40 ◼   ► I remember.

00:23:42 ◼   ► So, I need to do some mental math.

00:23:46 ◼   ► I remember thinking, and maybe I'm mistaken.

00:23:50 ◼   ► Who cares if I don't get the point?

00:23:52 ◼   ► I remember thinking that when App Clips came out, I remember thinking, oh, this would have been useful when everybody was doing QR codes for the pandemic.

00:24:07 ◼   ► So, we are in 2025.

00:24:09 ◼   ► In 2024, iOS 18.

00:24:12 ◼   ► 20, 23, 17.

00:24:15 ◼   ► 20, 22, 16.

00:24:17 ◼   ► 20, 21, 15.

00:24:20 ◼   ► I'm going to say iOS 15.

00:24:25 ◼   ► You may have had the similar idea, but slightly earlier, because it was iOS 14.

00:24:31 ◼   ► So, you were just in September of that year, thinking, oh, man, get rid of these QR codes.

00:24:37 ◼   ► It was still six months later.

00:24:39 ◼   ► You know, maybe it was in the time where everyone thought it was going to be okay, and then it wasn't.

00:24:44 ◼   ► Final question.

00:24:45 ◼   ► We're at 100 points to Steven, 75 points to Federico.

00:24:50 ◼   ► You really pulled it back, Federico.

00:24:51 ◼   ► You did.

00:24:52 ◼   ► Final question.

00:24:53 ◼   ► In 2013, Apple celebrated a major milestone by giving away a $10,000 App Store gift card.

00:25:03 ◼   ► What was the occasion?

00:25:05 ◼   ► Federico, you're answering first.

00:25:08 ◼   ► In 2013.

00:25:10 ◼   ► In 2013, Apple celebrated a major milestone by giving away a $10,000 App Store gift card.

00:25:18 ◼   ► What was the occasion?

00:25:21 ◼   ► They gave away that gift card to the person who downloaded an app from the App Store, and that app was like the...

00:25:35 ◼   ► Is it important that I get the number also correct?

00:25:39 ◼   ► It's that, yes.

00:25:40 ◼   ► That's what I'm looking for.

00:25:42 ◼   ► The person that performed on their account the one billionth download on the App Store.

00:25:49 ◼   ► Steven?

00:25:51 ◼   ► One billion seems low.

00:25:53 ◼   ► But 100 billion seems bananas.

00:25:58 ◼   ► 25 billion.

00:26:03 ◼   ► You're both close, but neither of you are correct, is the 10 billionth App Store download.

00:26:09 ◼   ► That's an incredible thing to me, and also was reminded of when they used to do that.

00:26:13 ◼   ► They did that a bunch of times.

00:26:15 ◼   ► Like, that wasn't the only time they did that.

00:26:17 ◼   ► They used to give away these huge App Store gift cards.

00:26:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:26:21 ◼   ► This might have been the last one, because, like, what were they going to do?

00:26:26 ◼   ► A $100,000 App Store gift card?

00:26:28 ◼   ► Just buy loads of subscriptions.

00:26:30 ◼   ► So that brings us to the end of the Quizzies.

00:26:32 ◼   ► Steven racked up 100 points in Federico 75.

00:26:37 ◼   ► That brings this year to 175 points for Federico, 250 points for Steven.

00:26:44 ◼   ► Thank you for playing this version of the Quizzies.

00:26:47 ◼   ► The Quizzies will return.

00:26:51 ◼   ► This episode of Connected is brought to you by FitBod.

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00:29:11 ◼   ► Our thanks to FitBod for the support of the show and all of Relay.

00:29:18 ◼   ► So as expected, as has become expected, it was Global Accessibility Awareness Day this week,

00:29:24 ◼   ► and Apple previewed a selection of features to help those with disabilities.

00:29:28 ◼   ► It was funny to me.

00:29:30 ◼   ► I saw somewhere else that it was Global Accessibility Awareness Day and thought to myself,

00:29:35 ◼   ► oh, there'll be a press release later on today, and there was.

00:29:38 ◼   ► I'm going to run through a few of these things.

00:29:40 ◼   ► There's a big list of stuff, as there is usually.

00:29:42 ◼   ► Accessibility nutrition labels in the app store.

00:29:47 ◼   ► It is like the privacy nutrition labels.

00:29:49 ◼   ► And this will essentially help a user understand if an app will work for them.

00:29:54 ◼   ► Does it have the accessibility preference that will, like accessibility feature is the word I'm looking for,

00:30:00 ◼   ► that will fit what they need.

00:30:02 ◼   ► My expectation here is that this will, like the privacy ones, be self-reported, which is,

00:30:07 ◼   ► so this is a good thing that exists, but it would be nice if somehow it could be like rubber stamped by Apple.

00:30:14 ◼   ► I think this goes for privacy too.

00:30:17 ◼   ► To, you know, really make sure that it works well.

00:30:19 ◼   ► But nevertheless, it's a good thing to exist.

00:30:21 ◼   ► Because I have no doubt that it is really frustrating for a lot of users that if they need voiceover support,

00:30:27 ◼   ► they're not going to know until they download the app.

00:30:29 ◼   ► Sure.

00:30:30 ◼   ► I bet that's really annoying.

00:30:31 ◼   ► Especially if it's a paid app, right?

00:30:33 ◼   ► I bet that is really, really frustrating.

00:30:34 ◼   ► I think the biggest impact from a marketing perspective is the Magnifier app for the Mac.

00:30:47 ◼   ► They made a video that's in the press release, which is in the show notes, that I recommend watching,

00:30:51 ◼   ► because it's quite a complex and fully featured app for the Mac that does a lot of things.

00:30:57 ◼   ► You can pair it with continuity camera and you can basically like look at things in the world and you can make them big on your screen.

00:31:05 ◼   ► You can like reorient things, like say like a whiteboard, you can reorient it so it'd be flat to your screen,

00:31:10 ◼   ► like how you can do with scanning documents in the notes app.

00:31:14 ◼   ► You can change backgrounds, you can highlight text, like it's really good.

00:31:17 ◼   ► There's a lot of really, really interesting stuff.

00:31:19 ◼   ► The video is very good and shows kind of this in more detail.

00:31:22 ◼   ► So I recommend that people watch it.

00:31:24 ◼   ► There's enhanced support for writing in Braille and better support for Braille access devices.

00:31:31 ◼   ► Accessibility reader is a new version of the reader kind of function, but it's in a lot of the system.

00:31:38 ◼   ► It's like it's in files, for example.

00:31:41 ◼   ► And it makes it easier to take text and read it for people who have dyslexia or low vision.

00:31:47 ◼   ► And it can like amend the text to make it more easy for you to read.

00:31:50 ◼   ► Live captions are on the Apple Watch.

00:31:53 ◼   ► And so like this would be useful.

00:31:55 ◼   ► It's like, you know, two people having a conversation.

00:31:57 ◼   ► You can have the iPhone be a microphone and you could read the captions on your Apple Watch.

00:32:01 ◼   ► That's super sweet.

00:32:02 ◼   ► There are updates to the Zoom app on Vision Pro.

00:32:06 ◼   ► And it can provide this little like magnified window in your vision.

00:32:10 ◼   ► It kind of reminds me of, you know, like people that work on jewelry and they have like that little magnifying gloss in their eye.

00:32:18 ◼   ► The loop.

00:32:19 ◼   ► Yeah, it looks like one of those essentially, but in the Vision Pro.

00:32:22 ◼   ► So you can like more easily see things.

00:32:25 ◼   ► So I guess you could do your, if you want to do some jewelry, you could like watch, you could have a YouTube video in the corner and then just use the little Zoom app and you could do some jewelry work with Vision Pro on.

00:32:40 ◼   ► And there are tons of other smaller updates like enhancements to the background sound system, which is awesome.

00:32:46 ◼   ► I like the background sound system and it's like got a timer and stuff like that on it now.

00:32:51 ◼   ► And vehicle motion cues.

00:32:53 ◼   ► So this is when you look at your iPhone and all those dots go down the screen.

00:32:57 ◼   ► Like for motion sickness is coming to the Mac.

00:32:59 ◼   ► Tons more.

00:33:00 ◼   ► Again, I am always surprised at the breadth of the amount of features that they come up with every year.

00:33:08 ◼   ► Like it almost feels like an entire operating system's worth of features just for accessibility every year.

00:33:17 ◼   ► It's very impressive.

00:33:18 ◼   ► It's very, very impressive.

00:33:19 ◼   ► You know, when we have all this down stuff about Apple, it is stuff like this that makes me remember why I like them.

00:33:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:33:27 ◼   ► Right.

00:33:28 ◼   ► Can they put these people in charge of like the whole company?

00:33:31 ◼   ► Please.

00:33:31 ◼   ► They seem to just do incredible work, like really innovative work as well,

00:33:36 ◼   ► which is obviously coming from listening to their community.

00:33:40 ◼   ► Like this is a microcosm of how we want the entire company to work.

00:33:44 ◼   ► Right.

00:33:45 ◼   ► Like it's a bunch of stuff that is very impactful.

00:33:48 ◼   ► Maybe it doesn't impact the bottom line, but it makes the experience better for users.

00:33:53 ◼   ► Like it is.

00:33:54 ◼   ► It's a great example of what we love about them.

00:33:57 ◼   ► But from, you know, to be fair to Apple on as a whole, this is expensive work where they are not seeing a return from.

00:34:04 ◼   ► I can only imagine.

00:34:05 ◼   ► Right.

00:34:05 ◼   ► Like there's a lot of money and a lot of effort being put into these features.

00:34:10 ◼   ► And some of these features, they will have a smaller audience than others.

00:34:14 ◼   ► Like some features, like I would expect everybody should be using at least some accessibility features.

00:34:20 ◼   ► I use them.

00:34:21 ◼   ► I'm sure you both do too.

00:34:22 ◼   ► Yep.

00:34:23 ◼   ► Like there are ways to use a lot of Apple's accessibility tools, even if you do not have the accessibility need that it is made for.

00:34:32 ◼   ► Like you can use them and tweak them and stuff like that.

00:34:35 ◼   ► And you can find some stuff that's good for you.

00:34:37 ◼   ► It's always worth poking around in there because you might find something you didn't know was there or something that could be good for you.

00:34:42 ◼   ► But like I like that Apple continues to invest in this the way that they do.

00:34:47 ◼   ► So I think it is a good thing for everyone.

00:34:50 ◼   ► Absolutely.

00:34:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:34:52 ◼   ► Agreed.

00:34:54 ◼   ► Speaking of operating system updates, so Google did something I think is just really weird.

00:35:00 ◼   ► So Google I.O. is next week.

00:35:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:35:03 ◼   ► But they showed off a bunch of Android features this week, not as part of Google I.O., just on YouTube.

00:35:09 ◼   ► The Android show.

00:35:11 ◼   ► That's weird.

00:35:12 ◼   ► Like my expectation is Gemini is going to take up the majority of I.O. this year.

00:35:18 ◼   ► Oh, big time.

00:35:20 ◼   ► Along with I expect some Android stuff, but maybe some like a bigger impact things that they want to give some stage time to.

00:35:29 ◼   ► Right.

00:35:29 ◼   ► Rather than like, hey, there's the new operating system and here's some other stuff we're doing and here's some security updates.

00:35:35 ◼   ► This is like a really good 25 minute keynote.

00:35:38 ◼   ► The presentation in some points I found a bit cringy, but by and large, like I think they did a really good job like visually and like the presenters were really good.

00:35:49 ◼   ► It just surprises me, like for WWDC, the operating system is what it is, right?

00:35:56 ◼   ► Like that's WWDC.

00:35:58 ◼   ► But for I.O., Android has not always been the thing for Google.

00:36:02 ◼   ► Like this is a problem with I.O. in general is like they put too much into the presentation.

00:36:06 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:36:06 ◼   ► So maybe this is good for the Google I.O., right?

00:36:10 ◼   ► Like that they actually did cut some stuff and gave it its own spot.

00:36:14 ◼   ► But it's just like a funny thing to compare the two companies.

00:36:17 ◼   ► But, you know, Android is not as important to Google as I.O.S. is to Apple.

00:36:22 ◼   ► Right.

00:36:22 ◼   ► Realistically.

00:36:23 ◼   ► Another thing I noticed is.

00:36:25 ◼   ► What's going on with Google and Samsung?

00:36:29 ◼   ► What's happening?

00:36:31 ◼   ► Like I know that they have a lot of like they do a lot of co-work together, right?

00:36:37 ◼   ► Like which is clearly a bunch of agreements that they've made over time essentially to try and stop Samsung from pushing them out.

00:36:45 ◼   ► Like, you know, they I don't know what they gave to Samsung to get them to stop working on Tizen for their watches and to just use Wear OS, right?

00:36:55 ◼   ► Stuff like that.

00:36:55 ◼   ► But all of the promos were S25s when Google makes their own phones.

00:37:02 ◼   ► And there was a literal marketing promotion for the Galaxy S25 Edge in like the first two minutes of this presentation.

00:37:13 ◼   ► Like, hey, look at this thing.

00:37:14 ◼   ► It's coming soon.

00:37:15 ◼   ► Isn't it nice?

00:37:16 ◼   ► It's like, what is happening?

00:37:17 ◼   ► It's very peculiar.

00:37:18 ◼   ► There is this weird thing where like Google makes Android for Samsung, essentially, is the effect of how successful Samsung is, which is just like I just find that funny.

00:37:33 ◼   ► It's just like looking from the outside.

00:37:35 ◼   ► It's these things are funny.

00:37:36 ◼   ► Anyway, Material 3 Expressive.

00:37:39 ◼   ► We saw it already.

00:37:40 ◼   ► We spoke about it a week or two ago.

00:37:42 ◼   ► It looks fun.

00:37:43 ◼   ► It looks customizable.

00:37:44 ◼   ► The thing that we didn't get from the images that we get from the videos is there's loads of animations, which look really nice.

00:37:49 ◼   ► Lots of them.

00:37:50 ◼   ► Lots of them.

00:37:50 ◼   ► Very springy animations.

00:37:52 ◼   ► It's very Apple-like in quality and just general aesthetics.

00:37:56 ◼   ► Looks really good.

00:37:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:37:57 ◼   ► Like bringing some fun and some joy to the operating system.

00:38:00 ◼   ► Again, like I wonder how much of this will find its way to third-party apps.

00:38:04 ◼   ► But what we saw in the Android show was a lot of these in the operating system itself, which I think will be great, right?

00:38:13 ◼   ► Like it's, yes, you can put these in the apps.

00:38:15 ◼   ► It's nice if it shows up in the apps, but you will just get this stuff in the operating system.

00:38:20 ◼   ► So, yeah, I thought it looked really nice.

00:38:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:38:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:38:24 ◼   ► I thought it was cool.

00:38:25 ◼   ► Wallpaper integration, as we suspected.

00:38:28 ◼   ► Really curious to see what Apple does now.

00:38:31 ◼   ► You know, if they do something completely different from this or if it's going to be iOS, but basically more translucent, you know, picks up the wallpaper, lets you choose an accent color, that sort of stuff.

00:38:43 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:38:44 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:38:45 ◼   ► As we gear up to the WNBC, what I want is an iOS 7 moment.

00:38:50 ◼   ► I want to see UI that makes me go, oh my God, what are they doing?

00:38:54 ◼   ► That's what I want.

00:38:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:38:56 ◼   ► That's what I want.

00:38:57 ◼   ► I kind of feel like we need that shot in our lives right now, you know?

00:39:01 ◼   ► I think it would be fun, right?

00:39:03 ◼   ► Like it would be an actual fun thing to dissect for a while.

00:39:05 ◼   ► Like I remember, Steven, you probably do, watching the intro video for WNBC.

00:39:11 ◼   ► Oh, yeah.

00:39:11 ◼   ► We were together in a hotel room that year.

00:39:13 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:39:13 ◼   ► And like just seeing what they were showing, what is happening?

00:39:18 ◼   ► It was very exciting.

00:39:19 ◼   ► And I really hope that they're able to pull that off and that they have the courage to do it.

00:39:25 ◼   ► Because like that was a, history has shown that that was maybe not a great idea to do it the way that they did.

00:39:31 ◼   ► I want to see them try it again.

00:39:33 ◼   ► Oh, but the moment was so good though.

00:39:35 ◼   ► Like, because you see, there's like, with Apple, there's like bad drama and good drama.

00:39:41 ◼   ► And this was good drama.

00:39:42 ◼   ► Because it was like a thing that lasted for years.

00:39:46 ◼   ► And like all the designers getting upset that summer.

00:39:49 ◼   ► And Apple slowly pulling back from the thin fonts and the colors.

00:39:55 ◼   ► And then over many years, they sort of adjusted.

00:39:58 ◼   ► And I mean, arguably, you got to say though, that that design, although it was maybe a little bit exaggerated at the time,

00:40:06 ◼   ► it did allow a lot more people to get into design and making UIs for mobile apps than was possible before.

00:40:14 ◼   ► It made it more approachable to people.

00:40:18 ◼   ► Yes.

00:40:18 ◼   ► You didn't need to be extremely skilled at making photorealistic leather textures in Photoshop or whatever to be a designer.

00:40:27 ◼   ► And there's something about that, I think.

00:40:29 ◼   ► History is, seems to have suggested that the iOS 7 design was pulled together in like a few months.

00:40:38 ◼   ► Yeah, why not?

00:40:39 ◼   ► Why not?

00:40:40 ◼   ► Why not?

00:40:40 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:40:41 ◼   ► No, but my thing is like, well, what if they did actually have a year to do this?

00:40:45 ◼   ► Right?

00:40:45 ◼   ► What if they've been working on this for two years?

00:40:47 ◼   ► Like, could they land the full design more successfully if they'd had more time?

00:40:54 ◼   ► Like, that was, the iOS 7 was like very short and that was why so much changed because so much had to be rethought about.

00:41:01 ◼   ► But maybe if they've had more time with it, yeah, we'll find out.

00:41:04 ◼   ► They're adding live, what they call, well, they're adding live activities to Android, live updates.

00:41:09 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:09 ◼   ► But really weirdly, it's just for food deliveries, ride sharing and navigation.

00:41:13 ◼   ► That's it.

00:41:14 ◼   ► I mean, to be fair, that's, that's the thing people use them for.

00:41:19 ◼   ► I would disagree with that, actually.

00:41:21 ◼   ► I have it for weather and sports scores.

00:41:24 ◼   ► You use it for weather?

00:41:26 ◼   ► Yeah, if there's like, I have it in carrot weather, like if there's a set amount of rain coming.

00:41:30 ◼   ► I mean, you do have, you do have weird weather.

00:41:33 ◼   ► He has weather, you know what I mean?

00:41:34 ◼   ► You've got to have Steven's weather on a live activity because any moment that snow could turn into a tornado.

00:41:39 ◼   ► That's true.

00:41:40 ◼   ► Snornado.

00:41:41 ◼   ► I use it for a few things, too, like Timery.

00:41:44 ◼   ► I use it for the Mango Baby, which is the baby app that we have, like I can see.

00:41:50 ◼   ► I did not hear Mango, and it's like, wow, that's, yep.

00:41:53 ◼   ► Well, I don't know what you, Maga Baby?

00:41:56 ◼   ► I heard Maga Baby.

00:41:57 ◼   ► What was it?

00:41:57 ◼   ► Incredible.

00:41:58 ◼   ► Make Baby great again.

00:42:01 ◼   ► Oh, no.

00:42:03 ◼   ► No, no.

00:42:03 ◼   ► Maga Baby.

00:42:04 ◼   ► Oh, dear.

00:42:06 ◼   ► But I think it's really weird to debut this feature and then restrict it so much.

00:42:10 ◼   ► Like, I find it odd because they're like, obviously, I don't know if people actually use this, but Apple very much focuses sports scores for live activities.

00:42:20 ◼   ► Yeah, it's awesome.

00:42:21 ◼   ► It's like a big reason for it.

00:42:22 ◼   ► Like, it's weird to me to so clearly rip off a feature and then do it so limited.

00:42:27 ◼   ► Weird.

00:42:28 ◼   ► I find that odd.

00:42:29 ◼   ► I have a conspiracy theory about this that I think Federico would like.

00:42:32 ◼   ► Did Google, is Google limiting this because they think their developers won't take advantage of it?

00:42:39 ◼   ► And so they just like, you know, like, oh, what if like no weather app actually does it?

00:42:44 ◼   ► And then they feel bad.

00:42:46 ◼   ► So they're limiting it at first.

00:42:47 ◼   ► And then those weather app developers are like, dang, I want that.

00:42:50 ◼   ► And then they do it.

00:42:54 ◼   ► But where's the conspiracy?

00:42:55 ◼   ► Like, it's got to be more juicy than that.

00:42:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:42:59 ◼   ► To be a conspiracy.

00:43:00 ◼   ► The conspiracy is Uber paid them.

00:43:02 ◼   ► Yes.

00:43:04 ◼   ► See, now that's how you make a conspiracy.

00:43:06 ◼   ► That's the conspiracy.

00:43:08 ◼   ► Federico, Gemini everywhere, right?

00:43:11 ◼   ► Gemini everywhere.

00:43:12 ◼   ► And it looked good.

00:43:13 ◼   ► Like, the demos that they had looked really good.

00:43:16 ◼   ► Looked good.

00:43:17 ◼   ► I appreciated the many, many subtle digs at Apple and Siri.

00:43:21 ◼   ► Like, how many times did they say, and all of this is available today?

00:43:25 ◼   ► Wink, wink.

00:43:26 ◼   ► They literally did the wink at one point.

00:43:28 ◼   ► Like, they really wanted to let you know that Gemini can search your email.

00:43:31 ◼   ► Can let you know, what was that restaurant that my friend mentioned a while ago?

00:43:35 ◼   ► And, you know, Gemini can do all that.

00:43:37 ◼   ► And objectively speaking, it can do it today.

00:43:40 ◼   ► I had a funny thing with this, right?

00:43:43 ◼   ► Like, because there was a feature that they showed a bunch of times that I thought was

00:43:47 ◼   ► cool and I could do now, which is you can go to Gemini and you can say, like, look at

00:43:54 ◼   ► my screen in terms of what you think about it, right?

00:43:58 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:43:59 ◼   ► So, like, it's a weird UI where you have to scroll the screen yourself.

00:44:03 ◼   ► I just think, like, scroll it for me.

00:44:04 ◼   ► Like, why am I scrolling the screen?

00:44:06 ◼   ► But anyway, you have to scroll the screen.

00:44:08 ◼   ► I did it with an email that I got from my accountant today.

00:44:11 ◼   ► And Gemini told me that I would be getting a tax refund, which I'm definitely not.

00:44:22 ◼   ► Thank you, Google.

00:44:23 ◼   ► If you would like to give me that money, I'll take it.

00:44:26 ◼   ► But that's absolutely not what was happening.

00:44:29 ◼   ► The email was about the fact that I need to pay more taxes than we thought I did.

00:44:33 ◼   ► Not less.

00:44:34 ◼   ► But sure, Google, whatever you say.

00:44:37 ◼   ► Maybe.

00:44:39 ◼   ► Are you sure the Gemini didn't mean, like, the government will get a tax refund from you?

00:44:43 ◼   ► From you!

00:44:45 ◼   ► Because you've been stealing it from them!

00:44:47 ◼   ► The king will get his sweet, sweet money from Mike Hurley.

00:44:52 ◼   ► He's going to.

00:44:53 ◼   ► Oh, boy.

00:44:54 ◼   ► Anyway, they shut off Gemini on Wear OS 6.

00:45:01 ◼   ► Which, by the way, Wear OS 6 looks really nice.

00:45:04 ◼   ► Where?

00:45:04 ◼   ► Big jump scare, by the way, in App Store.

00:45:07 ◼   ► It's where you said you've been wearing a Wear OS smartwatch for six months or however long it's been.

00:45:13 ◼   ► Two months or so?

00:45:15 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:45:15 ◼   ► Somebody doesn't listen to App Store.

00:45:19 ◼   ► I'm so behind on podcasts.

00:45:20 ◼   ► It's not fast.

00:45:21 ◼   ► It's bad.

00:45:22 ◼   ► We'll get to this, I'm sure, when you do your big article about the fold.

00:45:26 ◼   ► But that was a surprise.

00:45:27 ◼   ► I haven't worn my Apple Watch in, like, three months.

00:45:30 ◼   ► Wild.

00:45:32 ◼   ► Got a Pixel watch.

00:45:33 ◼   ► So much nicer than an Apple Watch.

00:45:36 ◼   ► And customizable.

00:45:36 ◼   ► Imagine that.

00:45:37 ◼   ► It's round, which is all I want.

00:45:39 ◼   ► It's round.

00:45:39 ◼   ► That's all I want.

00:45:40 ◼   ► I just want a round watch.

00:45:41 ◼   ► Everybody compliments me on my smartwatch.

00:45:45 ◼   ► Like, on my phone, they're like, hey, they don't follow the news.

00:45:48 ◼   ► They're like, oh, is that, like, a round Apple Watch?

00:45:51 ◼   ► Because they assume that I'm using Apple products, right?

00:45:54 ◼   ► I'm like, no, it's a Pixel watch.

00:45:56 ◼   ► And their first reaction is like, oh, you traitor.

00:45:59 ◼   ► You're using Google products.

00:46:00 ◼   ► Because they know me.

00:46:02 ◼   ► Yeah, well, it's a thing.

00:46:03 ◼   ► But then when I show it off, they're like, yeah, although that does look very nice.

00:46:08 ◼   ► Because it's round.

00:46:09 ◼   ► So anyway, Gemini on Android Auto.

00:46:13 ◼   ► Gemini coming to cars with Google built-in, like my new one.

00:46:19 ◼   ► I'll get to choose at some point, do I want to use Gemini on Android Auto or do I want to use Gemini on Android Automotive, as it's called.

00:46:26 ◼   ► Gemini on Google TV.

00:46:29 ◼   ► Gemini on Google on Android XR, which will be the Vision OS equivalent powered by Android.

00:46:36 ◼   ► And they even did a teaser for XR, non-XR glasses that they're going to show off.

00:46:45 ◼   ► We're going to see those at I.O., right?

00:46:46 ◼   ► We're going to see those at I.O.

00:46:48 ◼   ► Google is absolutely destroying Siri and Apple when it comes to AI.

00:46:53 ◼   ► It's like, it's funny and not so funny anymore.

00:46:58 ◼   ► I mean, if you just, like, look, none of these models are perfect.

00:47:06 ◼   ► But in just a couple of years, I think we've gone from an absolutely unusable bard that told you that it was fine to put glue on pizza to, with Gemini 2.5 Pro is arguably the best model right now for coding.

00:47:23 ◼   ► And like even the smaller versions, they can get you there for most tasks in everyday life.

00:47:32 ◼   ► And now they're just, and they're not stopping.

00:47:35 ◼   ► That's what I find so fascinating about Google right now.

00:47:38 ◼   ► It took them a couple of years to get to this point.

00:47:41 ◼   ► And many, many black eyes with bard and the first version of Gemini.

00:47:46 ◼   ► But they got momentum now.

00:47:47 ◼   ► And, yeah.

00:47:50 ◼   ► Even if they're wrong, right?

00:47:55 ◼   ► Which they are still all the time, but not always, but sometimes.

00:47:59 ◼   ► Even if they're wrong, Google has this stuff available in products in the way that Apple wished.

00:48:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:48:08 ◼   ► Even if you just accept that all models are flawed, Google is at least doing stuff that Apple wished they could do, right?

00:48:19 ◼   ► But they can't.

00:48:20 ◼   ► When Apple does a large language model, I think a lot of people, a lot of Apple-pilled people are maybe thinking,

00:48:27 ◼   ► you know, all these folks, OpenAI, Google Anthropic, you know, Meta, they have all these models and they all hallucinate stuff.

00:48:35 ◼   ► Are you thinking that Apple is going to come up with a large language model that will not confabulate information?

00:48:40 ◼   ► I remember that being a talking point before last year's WWE.

00:48:44 ◼   ► Like, that is technically not possible because of how the transformer architecture works.

00:48:48 ◼   ► So, I mean, you can reduce those.

00:48:51 ◼   ► And, I mean, if you follow the news, you can see, you know, all these companies now, they have hallucination rates and they have, you know, system cards that talk about, like,

00:48:59 ◼   ► okay, this new version of ChatGPT, how much does it hallucinate?

00:49:02 ◼   ► You know, this version of Cloud, how much does it hallucinate?

00:49:05 ◼   ► But it's intrinsic to the architecture of the large language model to hallucinate information.

00:49:10 ◼   ► And, you know, if you're thinking that Apple will come up with a perfect LLM that will never hallucinate, boy, do I want to be in your brain and be as optimistic as you are about life.

00:49:21 ◼   ► It was a nation of its own.

00:49:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:49:23 ◼   ► It was also fun to see Deaton Bohm break in at the end.

00:49:27 ◼   ► Yeah, so good.

00:49:28 ◼   ► And also, like, I mean, it's, you know, people that join tech companies from media, like, usually don't know what they do.

00:49:36 ◼   ► And it gave his, like, job title.

00:49:38 ◼   ► I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was, like, product narrative or something.

00:49:41 ◼   ► And then when he did the thing, it's like, oh, he's doing the thing.

00:49:45 ◼   ► Like, this is obviously what he does for a living.

00:49:47 ◼   ► It's like, look at all these products.

00:49:48 ◼   ► Let me tell you about them.

00:49:49 ◼   ► There was also on screen an unannounced thing.

00:49:54 ◼   ► Did you see it?

00:49:55 ◼   ► There was, like, which has been rumored, like a desktop experience for Android.

00:49:59 ◼   ► It was on screen?

00:50:00 ◼   ► I missed that.

00:50:00 ◼   ► It was just sitting on the left side of his table the whole time was just a screen standing

00:50:06 ◼   ► up on its own.

00:50:06 ◼   ► It was being held up by something.

00:50:08 ◼   ► I guess it was a tablet.

00:50:09 ◼   ► And it was just Android with a dock and a bunch of overlapping windows.

00:50:13 ◼   ► Wait.

00:50:14 ◼   ► It was just sitting there the whole time.

00:50:16 ◼   ► I totally missed this.

00:50:16 ◼   ► So, I don't know when they're going to show that one off, but maybe that's part of Google

00:50:22 ◼   ► IO too, or maybe that's coming later when they have a tablet or something to announce.

00:50:25 ◼   ► But it's just sitting there the whole time.

00:50:27 ◼   ► But it's really great.

00:50:28 ◼   ► Loved it.

00:50:29 ◼   ► In the detail segment?

00:50:30 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

00:50:31 ◼   ► Hmm.

00:50:33 ◼   ► I'll finally find it.

00:50:34 ◼   ► Hmm.

00:50:36 ◼   ► Okay.

00:50:36 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:50:37 ◼   ► So, we'll talk about Google IO next week, I expect.

00:50:40 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:50:41 ◼   ► I think it's going to be really interesting.

00:50:42 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:50:43 ◼   ► Oh, I see where it was.

00:50:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:50:46 ◼   ► Oh, that's a nice desktop mod.

00:50:47 ◼   ► She's sitting there.

00:50:48 ◼   ► Okay.

00:50:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:50:49 ◼   ► Stage manager could never.

00:50:51 ◼   ► Well, we'll see.

00:50:52 ◼   ► Not Mark Gurman says they will.

00:50:54 ◼   ► Triangles.

00:50:56 ◼   ► Triangles everywhere.

00:50:57 ◼   ► Triangles.

00:50:58 ◼   ► Triangles.

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00:52:44 ◼   ► All right, boys.

00:52:47 ◼   ► Do you want to talk about vibe coding?

00:52:49 ◼   ► Absolutely, I do.

00:52:50 ◼   ► Because I said this is an upgrade.

00:52:52 ◼   ► I don't really know what vibe coding is, and I want you to explain it to me.

00:52:56 ◼   ► All right, all right, all right.

00:52:58 ◼   ► I will.

00:52:58 ◼   ► So this segment started because of this real Mark Gurman report on Bloomberg that Apple

00:53:07 ◼   ► is teaming up with Anthropic, the makers of Claude, on a new vibe coding integration.

00:53:13 ◼   ► So let me read you this, and then we'll talk about why I sort of dislike this and sort of

00:53:18 ◼   ► some more general thoughts about AI-assisted programming.

00:53:21 ◼   ► So Gurman wrote, Apple is teaming up with startup Anthropic.

00:53:25 ◼   ► Kind of funny to think about it as a startup after all the billions of dollars they have

00:53:28 ◼   ► received.

00:53:29 ◼   ► That is my quote, not Gurman.

00:53:30 ◼   ► Steaming up with startup Anthropic on a new vibe coding software platform that will use artificial

00:53:38 ◼   ► intelligence to write, edit, and test code on behalf of programmers.

00:53:41 ◼   ► The system is a new version of Xcode that will integrate Anthropic's Claude Sonnet model.

00:53:48 ◼   ► According to people with knowledge of the matter, Apple will roll out the software internally

00:53:53 ◼   ► and hasn't yet decided whether to launch it publicly, said the people who asked not to be

00:53:58 ◼   ► identified, blah, blah, blah.

00:53:59 ◼   ► All right.

00:54:00 ◼   ► So this is not vibe coding.

00:54:02 ◼   ► So first of all, the term vibe coding.

00:54:05 ◼   ► So to the best of my knowledge, this expression was created by one of the OpenAI co-founders,

00:54:15 ◼   ► Andrei Karpathy.

00:54:16 ◼   ► They're no longer at OpenAI.

00:54:20 ◼   ► And it basically describes this idea of coding, like creating code without actually thinking

00:54:27 ◼   ► or caring or to an extent, not even seeing the code.

00:54:31 ◼   ► This was a popular tweet by Karpathy from February, from a few months ago.

00:54:37 ◼   ► So it's a 2025 thing.

00:54:39 ◼   ► And it's basically describing this idea of like even using dictation.

00:54:44 ◼   ► So using the Super Whisper app on a Mac to dictate what you want the model to create.

00:54:51 ◼   ► Imagine sitting down and being like, hey, I kind of want to create like a web app that

00:54:57 ◼   ► visualizes a bunch of vegan menu options.

00:55:00 ◼   ► And like you never actually mentioned the code.

00:55:03 ◼   ► You don't talk about the code.

00:55:05 ◼   ► You just vibe code your way into a product or more like a hobby project.

00:55:12 ◼   ► And in fact, from the original tweet that started the whole vibe coding expression trend, Karpathy

00:55:19 ◼   ► wrote, it's not too bad for throwaway weekend projects, but still quite amusing.

00:55:23 ◼   ► I'm building a project or web app, but it's not really coding.

00:55:26 ◼   ► I just see stuff, say stuff, run stuff, copy and paste stuff.

00:55:30 ◼   ► And it mostly works.

00:55:32 ◼   ► So that was the idea of vibe coding, where you got to put together a small script, like

00:55:39 ◼   ► a throwaway Python script, like I did today.

00:55:41 ◼   ► I didn't vibe code it.

00:55:42 ◼   ► I actually asked what I wanted.

00:55:45 ◼   ► But you're just like, you completely disengage from the actual coding part.

00:55:52 ◼   ► And you just write, hey, make me this.

00:55:55 ◼   ► And then it doesn't work.

00:55:57 ◼   ► And you don't care about the bugs.

00:55:58 ◼   ► You don't even paste in the errors.

00:56:00 ◼   ► You're like, it doesn't work.

00:56:02 ◼   ► Do it again.

00:56:02 ◼   ► Like, so I guess vibe coding is essentially like AI image generation.

00:56:08 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:56:09 ◼   ► I'm not involved in the image being made.

00:56:11 ◼   ► I just told you what I wanted.

00:56:12 ◼   ► Yes.

00:56:12 ◼   ► And then whatever happens, happens.

00:56:14 ◼   ► It's not like I have Photoshop open.

00:56:16 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:56:17 ◼   ► And I'm like, no tweaking.

00:56:19 ◼   ► Well, there's tweaking going on, I think.

00:56:21 ◼   ► But yeah, but not me.

00:56:23 ◼   ► I'm not doing it.

00:56:24 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:56:24 ◼   ► Like the pure version of vibe coding, if we go by the definition of the person who came

00:56:32 ◼   ► up with this idea, is you just talk.

00:56:36 ◼   ► Sometimes you even dictate.

00:56:38 ◼   ► And you just copy, paste, test, run.

00:56:43 ◼   ► Doesn't work.

00:56:44 ◼   ► Ask again.

00:56:44 ◼   ► You never touch the code.

00:56:46 ◼   ► You never care about the code.

00:56:48 ◼   ► Now, this is different from AI-assisted programming, which is why I kind of wanted to talk about

00:56:56 ◼   ► and go back to this report about Apple and Anthropic.

00:56:59 ◼   ► AI-assisted programming is, from my perspective, the developer story that Apple is missing out

00:57:11 ◼   ► on big time right now when it comes to AI.

00:57:15 ◼   ► And I look at it from this angle, that there are two great narratives right now in AI.

00:57:22 ◼   ► There's the user story and there's the developer story.

00:57:25 ◼   ► And Apple is missing out on both fronts at the moment.

00:57:28 ◼   ► The user story is what we've been, you know, talking about for many months now with a twist

00:57:36 ◼   ► that I will also mention in a minute.

00:57:38 ◼   ► But the developer story is equally important because you look at, like, over the past year

00:57:43 ◼   ► especially, there's been essentially a revolution in terms of the apps that developers use to

00:57:49 ◼   ► write code.

00:57:50 ◼   ► You know, we're used to talking about Apple platforms and Apple stuff.

00:57:53 ◼   ► And so we know that the vast majority of developers we, you know, we talk to, we know, they use

00:57:59 ◼   ► Xcode, right?

00:58:00 ◼   ► They create iOS, Mac, Vision OS, apps, whatever.

00:58:03 ◼   ► Can you make iOS apps without Xcode?

00:58:08 ◼   ► Well, you cannot build them without Xcode.

00:58:10 ◼   ► So the answer is kind of no, right?

00:58:12 ◼   ► It has to be involved in the chain even if you write your code somewhere else.

00:58:15 ◼   ► You can use a different text editor for sure.

00:58:17 ◼   ► Right.

00:58:17 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:58:18 ◼   ► But you got to build them.

00:58:19 ◼   ► You got to build and run in Xcode.

00:58:21 ◼   ► Right.

00:58:21 ◼   ► You got to compile them in Xcode.

00:58:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:58:23 ◼   ► It's the name of the podcast.

00:58:24 ◼   ► It's just right there, you know?

00:58:25 ◼   ► Yes.

00:58:26 ◼   ► Yes.

00:58:26 ◼   ► That's an old joke.

00:58:27 ◼   ► Wasn't that Build and Analyze?

00:58:28 ◼   ► It was Build and Analyze.

00:58:29 ◼   ► Oh, I blew it.

00:58:31 ◼   ► I'm sorry.

00:58:31 ◼   ► Jim, cut all of it.

00:58:33 ◼   ► No, no.

00:58:34 ◼   ► It was called Build and Run.

00:58:35 ◼   ► That was the name of the show.

00:58:36 ◼   ► That's how everyone remembers.

00:58:37 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:58:38 ◼   ► Okay.

00:58:39 ◼   ► All right.

00:58:40 ◼   ► So in any case, there's been this completely new wave of apps or, you know, IDEs, basically

00:58:48 ◼   ► developer development, development, interactive development environments.

00:58:52 ◼   ► So apps where developers can write and usually test code.

00:58:56 ◼   ► And all of this, like all of the popular ones, have AI agents or co-pilots or whatever you want to call it.

00:59:04 ◼   ► They have an AI integration built in.

00:59:05 ◼   ► So there's the popular one is cursor right now.

00:59:09 ◼   ► Cursor originated as a fork of the open source of VS code.

00:59:14 ◼   ► It's a visual studio code by Microsoft.

00:59:15 ◼   ► Cursor was possibly one of the first, if not the first, to have this sidebar where you can talk to the AI.

00:59:25 ◼   ► And the AI can have varying degrees of integration with your code.

00:59:28 ◼   ► You can say, hey, go to this line and, you know, refactor this code or you can ask more specific questions.

00:59:34 ◼   ► You can say, you know, you can hook it up to a model that has long contacts built in, like Google Gemini.

00:59:40 ◼   ► You can say, hey, analyze this code base because I'm new to this project.

00:59:45 ◼   ► Can you explain what it does?

00:59:46 ◼   ► So cursor is a really popular one.

00:59:48 ◼   ► VS code now obviously comes with, what's it called, GitHub co-pilot built in.

00:59:56 ◼   ► There's WindSurf.

00:59:57 ◼   ► So WindSurf is basically a cursor alternative that is the one that supposedly OpenAI is going to buy for $3 billion.

01:00:06 ◼   ► So WindSurf is the most popular cursor competitor right now.

01:00:13 ◼   ► And it sounds like OpenAI is going to acquire these folks for $3 billion.

01:00:19 ◼   ► There's Ader, which is another AI assistant IDE that is kind of similar to Cursor and WindSurf.

01:00:26 ◼   ► Then there's a whole other, like, other sort of segment of this.

01:00:31 ◼   ► And I'm barely scratching the surface here, guys.

01:00:33 ◼   ► But there's a whole other segment when it comes to AI assistant web development.

01:00:40 ◼   ► So these new tools that allow you to spin up a web app,

01:00:44 ◼   ► usually they even take care of the hosting for you, like Replit, VZero,

01:00:50 ◼   ► like all of these tools that basically use AI integration to let you write web apps with AI assistant

01:00:58 ◼   ► and publish those web apps in, like, minutes, if you know what you're doing.

01:01:01 ◼   ► Now there's even companies that are going to do this AI assistant, quote-unquote, programming for user interface.

01:01:13 ◼   ► I know that there's this company called Variant AI that is playing around with this concept.

01:01:19 ◼   ► I think Figma just announced it, right?

01:01:22 ◼   ► Figma just announced, yes, just announced their AI stuff.

01:01:26 ◼   ► Meanwhile, Xcode Swift Assist, which Apple sort of teased,

01:01:34 ◼   ► just like Apple Intelligence with Siri App Intents last year,

01:01:37 ◼   ► is still nowhere to be found.

01:01:39 ◼   ► Like, nowhere to be found.

01:01:41 ◼   ► And all these other IDEs, they either have a proper AI assistant mode,

01:01:47 ◼   ► or they have agents, now agents are all the rage right now.

01:01:51 ◼   ► I was playing around today with PyCharm,

01:01:53 ◼   ► because I needed to test and run a Python script on my Mac.

01:01:57 ◼   ► And I realized that even PyCharm,

01:01:59 ◼   ► as an agent for Python called Juni,

01:02:04 ◼   ► it's kind of wild.

01:02:06 ◼   ► Like, all of these apps, they have AI right now.

01:02:08 ◼   ► It's so dumb.

01:02:09 ◼   ► All this to say that over the past year,

01:02:14 ◼   ► the developer narrative has basically sort of gotten away from Apple.

01:02:22 ◼   ► There's this new generation of tools.

01:02:24 ◼   ► There's this new generation of tools, IDEs, you know, building web apps,

01:02:27 ◼   ► hosting web apps, using web APIs, of course,

01:02:31 ◼   ► using the APIs of AI services,

01:02:34 ◼   ► new toolkits that have been coming out for the past year,

01:02:39 ◼   ► and Apple is still stuck with Xcode.

01:02:43 ◼   ► Now, there's also, at the same time,

01:02:47 ◼   ► a potential user story here.

01:02:51 ◼   ► And this is more in its infancy right now, really.

01:02:54 ◼   ► But I've been wondering for the past few months,

01:02:58 ◼   ► what's going to happen when somebody will come up with a way to turn vibe coding?

01:03:05 ◼   ► Now, let's go back to vibe coding.

01:03:07 ◼   ► What happens when somebody productizes vibe coding

01:03:11 ◼   ► into an experience where anybody can open an app,

01:03:16 ◼   ► can say, hey, I want an app that does this,

01:03:19 ◼   ► and they end up with a proper app on their phones?

01:03:22 ◼   ► Completely sort of de-center mediating?

01:03:27 ◼   ► Is that even a word?

01:03:28 ◼   ► I'm not...

01:03:28 ◼   ► By completely excluding the app store from the process, right?

01:03:32 ◼   ► Without having to be a registered developer,

01:03:34 ◼   ► without having to be anything.

01:03:35 ◼   ► Now, there's...

01:03:37 ◼   ► People are thinking about this.

01:03:39 ◼   ► One of the apps that I know is doing this,

01:03:44 ◼   ► you can pre-order it on the app store now.

01:03:46 ◼   ► I know they've been doing a test flight beta for a while.

01:03:48 ◼   ► It's literally called VibeCode.

01:03:51 ◼   ► They have a website at vibecodeapp.com.

01:03:54 ◼   ► And it's advertised as the app that builds apps.

01:03:59 ◼   ► Now, I think I know they're using Claude behind the scenes.

01:04:03 ◼   ► But this is what I'm talking about.

01:04:06 ◼   ► This feels like straight against the developer guidelines.

01:04:09 ◼   ► Well, see, there's all these aspects coming together now

01:04:15 ◼   ► when it comes to distribution,

01:04:18 ◼   ► Apple under fire from regulators.

01:04:21 ◼   ► And I think there's the potential of a perfect storm coming for Apple here,

01:04:32 ◼   ► which is why the idea of Apple sort of starting to approach the likes of Anthropic.

01:04:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:04:36 ◼   ► Let's go back to that.

01:04:37 ◼   ► Let's go back to that.

01:04:38 ◼   ► If you're Apple.

01:04:39 ◼   ► At this point, you pretty much realize, okay, look,

01:04:42 ◼   ► we're not going to have a large language model,

01:04:44 ◼   ► let alone answering basic user questions.

01:04:48 ◼   ► But a large language model for programming,

01:04:50 ◼   ► for coding,

01:04:52 ◼   ► we're not going to have that within the next two years at least.

01:04:57 ◼   ► So we're going to go to the best guys in the business.

01:04:59 ◼   ► Anthropic is one of them.

01:05:01 ◼   ► And I know it wouldn't surprise me if Apple is actually aware of the plans that Anthropic has

01:05:07 ◼   ► to supposedly release Sonnet 4 or Sonnet 3.8.

01:05:12 ◼   ► I was reading this morning on the information that Anthropic is coming up with this model

01:05:16 ◼   ► that is going to think even deeper and sort of alternate going back and forth

01:05:21 ◼   ► between reasoning and using functions and tools,

01:05:24 ◼   ► and then going back to reasoning,

01:05:26 ◼   ► like jumping back and forth to provide even better coding results and even better answers.

01:05:32 ◼   ► So it wouldn't surprise me if Apple is making a big investment here

01:05:35 ◼   ► and they have seen the plans that Anthropic has,

01:05:38 ◼   ► and they're like, yes, give me that.

01:05:40 ◼   ► We want that in Xcode.

01:05:42 ◼   ► But if you're Apple, you must be thinking about this, right?

01:05:45 ◼   ► You must be thinking, well, we're not going to have

01:05:47 ◼   ► a large language model for programming.

01:05:49 ◼   ► Developers have been moving in this direction.

01:05:53 ◼   ► I mean, it's pretty much clear and obvious at this point.

01:05:55 ◼   ► And we have zero to offer.

01:05:57 ◼   ► You know, we don't have something like Cursor.

01:06:00 ◼   ► We don't have something like VS Code.

01:06:02 ◼   ► Swift Assist is nowhere to be found.

01:06:05 ◼   ► We don't have a terminal integration like Cloud Code,

01:06:08 ◼   ► which is also very good, by the way.

01:06:10 ◼   ► We have nothing right now.

01:06:12 ◼   ► What can we do?

01:06:13 ◼   ► And so I think the idea of starting with an Xcode integration is good.

01:06:19 ◼   ► But if I was Apple, and this is where we get to my final takes,

01:06:24 ◼   ► if I were Apple, I would also consider a couple of things.

01:06:28 ◼   ► This idea of empowering people to create their own mini apps is fascinating.

01:06:33 ◼   ► Shortcuts could be a perfect candidate, you know, to say, hey, like, for example, a few

01:06:39 ◼   ► days ago, Sylvia was like, hey, do you know, like, I need a thing on my phone that gets a

01:06:45 ◼   ► list of names and spits out like a randomized list of those names.

01:06:52 ◼   ► I was like, yeah, I can probably build it with a shortcut.

01:06:54 ◼   ► And I did.

01:06:55 ◼   ► Well, that's not nice.

01:06:57 ◼   ► You know, it doesn't look nice.

01:06:58 ◼   ► You can put it on the home screen.

01:07:00 ◼   ► But I guess what I'm saying is it would be so much better for a lot of people to just say,

01:07:05 ◼   ► hey, let me quote unquote vibe code my way into this sort of thing that I need.

01:07:11 ◼   ► I will also say, half jokingly, that given how smart these models are at writing code for

01:07:20 ◼   ► web apps, now would be a fantastic time to bring back iWeb and let people create websites

01:07:27 ◼   ► with a large language model.

01:07:29 ◼   ► I'm just saying, I'm just saying you can create decent web apps with Gemini 2.5 Pro or Claude

01:07:36 ◼   ► Sonnet.

01:07:36 ◼   ► What a missed opportunity for the iWeb name not to exist anymore.

01:07:41 ◼   ► So hopefully this small segment, Mike, answered your doubts about vibe coding.

01:07:48 ◼   ► I didn't have doubts.

01:07:49 ◼   ► I just don't understand it.

01:07:51 ◼   ► And again, I think what this has shown to me is that, oh, okay, vibe coding is like artificial

01:07:57 ◼   ► intelligence.

01:07:58 ◼   ► Like it means something.

01:08:00 ◼   ► But now what people use it for is not actually it.

01:08:02 ◼   ► Right?

01:08:03 ◼   ► Like, because AI is just machine learning.

01:08:05 ◼   ► All the stuff we have now in AI is just machine learning.

01:08:08 ◼   ► It's just more advanced machine learning.

01:08:10 ◼   ► And like vibe coding, the idea behind what vibe coding is, is very much this like, hey,

01:08:16 ◼   ► I just like, I figure I want an app.

01:08:18 ◼   ► And like, I don't really know how to make the app.

01:08:20 ◼   ► And like, I'll just talk about it.

01:08:22 ◼   ► And it's become like, any time a transformer model is added to code in any way is now vibe coding.

01:08:29 ◼   ► So I get it.

01:08:30 ◼   ► You know, it is, it is super interesting.

01:08:34 ◼   ► And this is not vibe coding, but it's in the same area.

01:08:37 ◼   ► But when I was doing the 512 redesign, like there was some stuff I needed to do.

01:08:41 ◼   ► That was, I was like, I'm pretty close to what I want, but can you help me kind of get it over the finish line?

01:08:48 ◼   ► And yet, not all of it worked right.

01:08:50 ◼   ► Like at some point I like pushed to changes.

01:08:51 ◼   ► You know, my development site was completely broken, but I could wind it back and try something else.

01:08:56 ◼   ► And that is all really compelling for the individual user.

01:09:00 ◼   ► But when you're talking about like making an app for Sylvia, or, you know, maybe I want to use AI to make an app for my kids cross country team.

01:09:10 ◼   ► And like have them able to check in and, you know, do some things like, then you just run headlong into distribution challenges,

01:09:16 ◼   ► which I think is a way that the web can stand apart from native applications, of course.

01:09:24 ◼   ► But it is fascinating to see the progress of this.

01:09:28 ◼   ► Even though I would strongly recommend not using something like this for a complete shipping product.

01:09:37 ◼   ► But to assist you, I think it's come a long way.

01:09:41 ◼   ► Well, I would adapt that and say like, if you think that this is a way to make a shipping product, good luck to you, I suppose.

01:09:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:09:48 ◼   ► Because I don't think you're going to use this neat things.

01:09:52 ◼   ► And if you don't know how to fix them, then you're going to, it's going to come back to bite you.

01:09:58 ◼   ► But I really do feel that in AI right now, the real power from my perspective is not when you fully automate something with AI, but when you combine like manual user input with AI, like if you take a really good programmer and you give that programmer AI assistants, the results will be a hundred times better than a decent programmer with AI assistants.

01:10:26 ◼   ► So I think the human factor only compounds the utility that you get from AI.

01:10:32 ◼   ► And if you think you can ship a fully functioning product that was only vibe coded, like you said, like good luck to you.

01:10:43 ◼   ► Like, I think the real secret lies in giving really skilled people really good AI.

01:10:51 ◼   ► It's like, it's that combination, like, and these apply, like you can apply this in any field, I think.

01:10:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:10:58 ◼   ► But to wrap this all the back around again, it is interesting that Apple is using an external party for this.

01:11:07 ◼   ► This is what you were hoping they would do, Federico, right?

01:11:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:11:10 ◼   ► Will they ship this?

01:11:11 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:11:12 ◼   ► But the new Craig Federici era is like, all right, we need to be building.

01:11:17 ◼   ► And that means we can't be relying on our own research because it's not good enough right now.

01:11:22 ◼   ► No, no.

01:11:22 ◼   ► I mean, I believe that Apple is doing really good research.

01:11:26 ◼   ► Like yesterday, they put out another paper about like reconstructing 3D images with a vision model.

01:11:32 ◼   ► Like they put out really good research, really interesting research, but they need to build, they need to ship.

01:11:37 ◼   ► We are living in that era where every single week, all of the major AI labs and all of these different startups, they put out something.

01:11:45 ◼   ► And Apple is seen as the company that is standing still and they are behind.

01:11:52 ◼   ► And they are like, even if we disregard AI, they were already seen as the company behind when it comes to the whole native apps versus web apps and this new generation of programmers who are building web-based software.

01:12:07 ◼   ► But when you add in the AI integrations, they're like super behind.

01:12:13 ◼   ► And so I think the more pragmatic approach would be like, all right, you know, let's cut our losses with this research or maybe let it continue going in, you know, in a building at Apple Park.

01:12:26 ◼   ► Let's spend a bunch of money, you know, and get access to Claude Sonnet and Gemini 2.5 Pro or whatever.

01:12:34 ◼   ► And, you know, rely on those folks.

01:12:37 ◼   ► I mean, I'm not in charge of Apple software, but that's what I would do given the situation.

01:12:43 ◼   ► So I want to talk a little bit while we're on the AI topic about XAI.

01:12:50 ◼   ► This has been the topic of discussion on 512 pixels most of the month.

01:12:56 ◼   ► And we had some listeners wanting me to talk about it here and maybe get into some feelings because I've basically just been doing kind of straight reporting on the website.

01:13:04 ◼   ► But a little timeline, of course, XAI now owns X, formerly Twitter.

01:13:11 ◼   ► They merged somehow.

01:13:13 ◼   ► Hilarious.

01:13:14 ◼   ► Maybe a financial crime.

01:13:15 ◼   ► It's hard to tell.

01:13:16 ◼   ► It's a good way to erase all the debt, right?

01:13:20 ◼   ► So in June of 24, so almost a year ago, it was announced that XAI was going to come to Memphis to build, and I quote, a gigafactory of compute, which just doesn't mean anything.

01:13:35 ◼   ► It means something.

01:13:36 ◼   ► It's words one after the other.

01:13:38 ◼   ► Sure.

01:13:39 ◼   ► It's true.

01:13:39 ◼   ► But the number of jobs or even the exact location were not announced.

01:13:45 ◼   ► Again, quote, due to global security concerns.

01:13:51 ◼   ► Well, where they ended up building it was a former appliance factory in South Memphis that had closed in 2020.

01:13:58 ◼   ► About 530 people were laid off, and that factory closed.

01:14:01 ◼   ► It's been sitting empty.

01:14:02 ◼   ► And then in September of 24, XAI's supercomputer named Colossus came online, I would note, with no appreciable bump of jobs in the Memphis area.

01:14:15 ◼   ► Because it doesn't take that many people to run a warehouse full of NVIDIA hardware.

01:14:19 ◼   ► It just doesn't.

01:14:20 ◼   ► Yes, there was an increase, but it was like seven people.

01:14:23 ◼   ► It's like a bunch of security guards or whatever.

01:14:27 ◼   ► I've got people shoveling coal into a supercomputer or whatever.

01:14:34 ◼   ► I don't know what would happen.

01:14:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:14:36 ◼   ► We're going to talk about coal in a second.

01:14:38 ◼   ► No, just kidding.

01:14:39 ◼   ► Not that bad.

01:14:39 ◼   ► Oh, wow.

01:14:39 ◼   ► I was not expecting that.

01:14:41 ◼   ► So why Memphis?

01:14:44 ◼   ► There's not a really simple answer to that.

01:14:48 ◼   ► I will say the Musk family has ties to Memphis.

01:14:51 ◼   ► His brother had a couple of restaurants here at some point.

01:14:54 ◼   ► And Memphis has relatively cheap land and power and available water, which we'll talk about in a second.

01:15:02 ◼   ► There's also a lot of reasons not to put a data center in Memphis, just to be real honest.

01:15:06 ◼   ► We have severe weather.

01:15:08 ◼   ► We're on a major earthquake fault line that is like ready to blow.

01:15:12 ◼   ► We've not had a major earthquake in a long time, and we're overdue, according to some experts.

01:15:17 ◼   ► Why have you never told me this?

01:15:18 ◼   ► Because I don't want you to worry about it while you're here.

01:15:20 ◼   ► I don't want to know about that.

01:15:22 ◼   ► Don't tell me about it.

01:15:23 ◼   ► You don't want to be staying next to the rack with all the PowerMax on it when the earthquake comes.

01:15:27 ◼   ► I'll say that.

01:15:28 ◼   ► You want to be far away from that.

01:15:29 ◼   ► But there were immediate concerns about how this was going to be powered.

01:15:37 ◼   ► Because if you've paid any attention to this, power and cooling are major issues in any data center.

01:15:43 ◼   ► But in AI data centers, where it's basically a bunch of GPUs just running as fast as they can, that's a pretty big deal.

01:15:51 ◼   ► And our local utility company is called MLGW.

01:15:54 ◼   ► So I'm going to reference them again.

01:15:56 ◼   ► Memphis Light, Gas, and Water.

01:15:57 ◼   ► Their power is provided 100% by TVA, the Tennessee Valley Authority, which is like a historic American story.

01:16:09 ◼   ► And 99% Invisible has covered a lot about the TVA over the years, which has been very interesting to listen to.

01:16:16 ◼   ► But MLGW could not power Colossus in the beginning.

01:16:21 ◼   ► And so the county health department said you can run 15 gas turbines to supplement the power the utility company can provide as the power company was building out additional capacity.

01:16:34 ◼   ► So MLGW is building a new substation, which is to say this part of town is industrial, right?

01:16:40 ◼   ► Like there was a factory there that it replaced.

01:16:42 ◼   ► There is a TVA water pumping plant right down the street, which has its own issues.

01:16:49 ◼   ► So there was already a lot of power and stuff in this area, but they've got to build more.

01:16:54 ◼   ► And the gas turbines, they don't power the GPUs directly.

01:16:59 ◼   ► Basically, it seems like they're powering Tesla battery packs, and then that's supplementing what the grid provides.

01:17:05 ◼   ► All of Elon's companies working together, I guess.

01:17:09 ◼   ► That's the way to do it.

01:17:11 ◼   ► They have not launched any rockets out of South Memphis yet that I've noticed.

01:17:14 ◼   ► You want to keep bumping up stock prices to keep buying stuff for your own companies?

01:17:19 ◼   ► All the security guards are in Cybertrucks.

01:17:21 ◼   ► I don't know if that's true, but I would like it to be true.

01:17:27 ◼   ► So you have the power thing.

01:17:28 ◼   ► It turns out there's photographic evidence that some 35 gas turbines have been in use, not 15.

01:17:34 ◼   ► We're going to come back to that in a second.

01:17:36 ◼   ► But water was also a concern.

01:17:39 ◼   ► Initially, MLG&W said the site was going to need a million gallons of water a day to cool the racks of supercomputers.

01:17:48 ◼   ► Other estimates have that number as high as 5.7 million gallons of water a day.

01:17:55 ◼   ► One of the reasons that's particularly concerning in Memphis is Memphis sits atop a series of aquifers, so underground water, that we pump through a layer of sand that filters it, and that's where our water comes from.

01:18:08 ◼   ► And Memphis has generally and historically some of the cleanest and best tap water in the country because of these aquifers.

01:18:16 ◼   ► It's a huge natural resource that we have.

01:18:19 ◼   ► The aquifers have been a center of many issues in the area.

01:18:22 ◼   ► In fact, around the corner, there's an existing gas power plant that has dumped ash from their fires into a pond that is potentially leaked into the aquifer, which is bad.

01:18:38 ◼   ► And the utility company pumps water out of the ground also nearby.

01:18:41 ◼   ► That's not going to make your water so clean.

01:18:44 ◼   ► No.

01:18:45 ◼   ► You don't want ash or, you know, you also can't, like, use this water.

01:18:50 ◼   ► Like, you can't pump it through NVIDIA hardware and then into a glass and drink it, right, because it's mixed with other stuff.

01:18:56 ◼   ► So, in the spring, the city sold land adjoining the XAI Colossus facility to build a gray water plant.

01:19:05 ◼   ► So, they would take wastewater, treat it, cool Colossus with it.

01:19:10 ◼   ► So, you're not pulling fresh water out of the ground.

01:19:12 ◼   ► You're recycling wastewater, which is great.

01:19:15 ◼   ► And that's how a lot of other data centers do it.

01:19:16 ◼   ► That seems smart.

01:19:17 ◼   ► Yeah, really good.

01:19:18 ◼   ► That seems like a smart way to do this, where it's like water nobody wants, and you're treating the water and getting what you want out of it.

01:19:24 ◼   ► Absolutely.

01:19:24 ◼   ► And the city has talked about having a wastewater plant in this area for some time because of the other industrial uses in that part of town.

01:19:33 ◼   ► But XAI getting here is kind of what tipped it over the edge.

01:19:36 ◼   ► It seems that the plans for that water treatment are underway, but it's going to take like a year or more to be built and come online.

01:19:44 ◼   ► But that's good.

01:19:45 ◼   ► Like, right.

01:19:45 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

01:19:46 ◼   ► Use recycled water.

01:19:47 ◼   ► Don't pump it out of the ground.

01:19:49 ◼   ► That makes sense anywhere, not just here when we have really clean water as a natural resource.

01:19:54 ◼   ► So, that's okay, right?

01:19:57 ◼   ► They're using gas turbines.

01:19:58 ◼   ► There's been a lot of complaints from people in the area about those turbines, the sound.

01:20:04 ◼   ► There's some evidence that the pollution is higher there because of the turbines than it was before.

01:20:11 ◼   ► But, look, that's not great, but it's not the end of the world either, I don't think.

01:20:17 ◼   ► Especially, like, the number of turbines will go down once capacity comes up.

01:20:23 ◼   ► Where we run into problems is XAI's second location, which they have announced.

01:20:28 ◼   ► And what this, the reason this caught my attention, because it's kind of just been in the background for me for a while, is a headline that the second site, which is located several miles away, it's not the immediate, same immediate area, could require the power needed to power 40% of the city.

01:20:47 ◼   ► Which is just...

01:20:49 ◼   ► Excuse me?

01:20:50 ◼   ► Yes.

01:20:50 ◼   ► Second...

01:20:52 ◼   ► Well, where is it going to come from?

01:20:53 ◼   ► Well, we're going to talk about that.

01:20:54 ◼   ► Because no one has an answer to that.

01:20:57 ◼   ► It's 1.1 gigawatts.

01:20:59 ◼   ► Mike, please insert a Back to the Future joke here.

01:21:01 ◼   ► Great.

01:21:02 ◼   ► Scott.

01:21:02 ◼   ► And, by the way, members, we're going to watch Back to the Future as our annual special this year.

01:21:08 ◼   ► We'll have more details about that soon, but I'm very excited.

01:21:10 ◼   ► The 1.1 gigawatt number has not been studied by the utility company or the TVA because XAI has not formally made a request.

01:21:20 ◼   ► So, even though that building is under construction, it's unclear how power will be delivered to the building.

01:21:28 ◼   ► A power request that large actually triggers oversight from the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.

01:21:37 ◼   ► Guess what billionaire who's been cutting federal programs, including the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, owns XAI.

01:21:45 ◼   ► Can you think of anyone?

01:21:47 ◼   ► So, is he essentially the thing that he needs to be done?

01:21:53 ◼   ► He's got it.

01:21:53 ◼   ► Nobody works there anymore.

01:21:55 ◼   ► That's incredible.

01:21:57 ◼   ► Oh, my God.

01:21:59 ◼   ► It has not had the cuts that other areas of the government have had, but it's clearly not good.

01:22:04 ◼   ► This is where I will complain about my local journalism, is that no one in Memphis, best I can tell, linked those things.

01:22:10 ◼   ► Like, oh, you need the FERC to approve this?

01:22:14 ◼   ► Oh, has Doge cut that?

01:22:16 ◼   ► It took me one Google search to find the answer to that, but, like, no one, including our paid media.

01:22:22 ◼   ► This is why Memphis University should give you a journalism doctorate.

01:22:26 ◼   ► I know.

01:22:26 ◼   ► This is the reason.

01:22:26 ◼   ► I know.

01:22:27 ◼   ► Some blogger with tattoos figured it out.

01:22:29 ◼   ► It seems inevitable that MLG&W TVA is not going to have 40% of the city's power ready to go when this site comes online.

01:22:42 ◼   ► So, even if they can transition from gas turbines to the grid for Colossus, the second site is going to be working on turbines.

01:22:56 ◼   ► Like, there's no way around it.

01:22:59 ◼   ► There are not plans for massive solar power.

01:23:02 ◼   ► In fact, TVA makes it very difficult to implement solar power generation in the area.

01:23:07 ◼   ► Well, I would say a joint between MLG&W and TVA.

01:23:12 ◼   ► Somewhere where their policies overlap, that's difficult to do in this area, which is really stupid.

01:23:15 ◼   ► Because you have so much sunshine.

01:23:17 ◼   ► I know.

01:23:18 ◼   ► Like, come on.

01:23:19 ◼   ► I would do it, you know.

01:23:21 ◼   ► My house actually faces it the wrong way, but, like, I know people who would do it if it were easier to get done in the area.

01:23:26 ◼   ► So, we could be seeing, like, any ranges from 30 to 50 or 50 to 90 gas turbines spinning at the second site, which is much closer to where people live.

01:23:40 ◼   ► So, the first site where Colossus is, like I said, it's an industrial area.

01:23:43 ◼   ► There are people in the area who live there, but not super close to the site.

01:23:49 ◼   ► That is not true of the second one.

01:23:51 ◼   ► There are people much closer.

01:23:52 ◼   ► And both of these zip codes are poor zip codes.

01:23:56 ◼   ► The wealth gap in Memphis is unbelievable, and these are some of the poorest areas of town.

01:24:04 ◼   ► And so, there's also that sort of layer to it of, like, environmental justice.

01:24:08 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't like that.

01:24:10 ◼   ► That's tricky.

01:24:11 ◼   ► Local leaders are far outmatched here.

01:24:16 ◼   ► So, in April, it was reported that XAI was expected to pay more than $30 million in local taxes.

01:24:22 ◼   ► You think, hey, that's great.

01:24:23 ◼   ► That's a lot of money.

01:24:23 ◼   ► The Greater Memphis Chamber of Commerce, which, best I can tell, is run by idiots.

01:24:29 ◼   ► They said XAI, because they were instrumental in XAI coming to Memphis, although they signed a bunch of NDAs, so they can't say what the meetings were about, even though they were public, like, they work for us.

01:24:41 ◼   ► They said XAI was going to generate $12 billion in tax revenue.

01:24:47 ◼   ► The reality is $30 million.

01:24:50 ◼   ► They have since removed references to the $12 billion on their website.

01:24:53 ◼   ► I'm not a mathematician, but those are very different numbers.

01:25:00 ◼   ► There is a gap.

01:25:01 ◼   ► I will give that to you.

01:25:02 ◼   ► There is a gap between those two numbers.

01:25:03 ◼   ► There's a gap there.

01:25:04 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:25:06 ◼   ► When it came to light that there were 35 turbines first in use at the site, at the first site, the Memphis mayor denied it.

01:25:13 ◼   ► The guy who I voted for denied it, saying, no, there's only 15.

01:25:17 ◼   ► Well, 15 is the number that the county approved, so incorrect about that.

01:25:22 ◼   ► And then on May 8th, so just a week ago, it was announced that XAI would not be using gas turbines at the new site.

01:25:31 ◼   ► The Chamber of Commerce said there will not be turbines at the new site.

01:25:36 ◼   ► According to a report obtained by the Southern Environmental Law Center, XAI has already planned to utilize, again, between 30 and 50 turbines at the second site.

01:25:47 ◼   ► So the Chamber of Commerce is just either completely wrong and out of the loop, or they're wrong and lying about it.

01:25:56 ◼   ► Either way, not great.

01:25:58 ◼   ► And I will say, I am on...

01:25:59 ◼   ► This stuff, to me, just feels much like in the sense of, like, they asked and were told, and they're just stupid enough to believe it.

01:26:06 ◼   ► Yep, I think so, too.

01:26:07 ◼   ► And these are, like, methane gas turbines, right?

01:26:09 ◼   ► So they do release smog, hazardous chemicals that are linked to asthma, respiratory disease, and are particularly harmful to children.

01:26:23 ◼   ► And that second site...

01:26:24 ◼   ► All the good stuff, then?

01:26:25 ◼   ► Good stuff, yeah.

01:26:26 ◼   ► It's all the good stuff?

01:26:27 ◼   ► It's just, like, bubbles and rainbows coming out of the data center.

01:26:31 ◼   ► And the Whitehaven neighborhood where it's in, their house is half a mile from the site.

01:26:36 ◼   ► It's concerning.

01:26:38 ◼   ► And it's really disappointing that our local leaders...

01:26:42 ◼   ► Like, when it was announced that it was coming here, my blog post about it, it was just, like, a very tongue-in-cheek thing.

01:26:49 ◼   ► I was like, hey, this could be great for the city, as long as our local leaders aren't getting screwed over by Elon Musk.

01:26:55 ◼   ► And I'm not even sure he's actively screwing them over.

01:26:58 ◼   ► I mean, I think there's probably some element that they're doing things without telling the government or moving faster than regulation.

01:27:07 ◼   ► But also, like, our local leaders just aren't capable, seemingly capable, of dealing with this.

01:27:13 ◼   ► And, you know, they are trying...

01:27:17 ◼   ► And I understand, like, Memphis is a city that, if you ask a lot of people, is on a trajectory not unlike someplace like Detroit, right?

01:27:26 ◼   ► Like, it is a poor city.

01:27:28 ◼   ► We have some major industry here.

01:27:31 ◼   ► Like, we have FedEx and AutoZone.

01:27:33 ◼   ► And we have ALSAC and some other hospital groups.

01:27:37 ◼   ► Like, so there are some big tenants here.

01:27:39 ◼   ► But if some of those were to go away, there would be even more trouble.

01:27:46 ◼   ► So you mean, like, when the car companies left Detroit?

01:27:49 ◼   ► Exactly.

01:27:50 ◼   ► Right.

01:27:51 ◼   ► We're not as precarious as Detroit was when that started, but it's not all that different either, unfortunately.

01:27:58 ◼   ► And so I see local leaders, like, they were trying to, like, hey, Memphis could be a great place.

01:28:03 ◼   ► Like, this AI revolution is happening, and we could be at the forefront of it.

01:28:08 ◼   ► In fact, it's been announced that a second AI company is coming to town to build a data center, not XAI.

01:28:14 ◼   ► And I, where that site's going to be is not far from my house.

01:28:18 ◼   ► Like, I have driven past it.

01:28:20 ◼   ► I drove past it the other day after it was announced, and they're already working to tear down the building that's there.

01:28:24 ◼   ► And so I see the value in wanting to bring jobs and economic opportunity to the city.

01:28:29 ◼   ► I'm not against that.

01:28:30 ◼   ► But you've got to do it in a way where local leaders can have oversight and be able to talk intelligently about it.

01:28:38 ◼   ► And, you know, all the stuff that AI does, and I will say, like, I am, I think, out of the three of us, the coldest on AI.

01:28:47 ◼   ► But these problems are solved in some ways, right?

01:28:52 ◼   ► Like, if you look at other data centers, and Federico's got some great links in here that we'll put in the show notes about the impact on power consumption.

01:29:02 ◼   ► And, like, you can do this in a way that uses renewable energy and doesn't pump water out of the ground.

01:29:09 ◼   ► But XAI, in particular, has moved so fast with so little regard to the environment and the people around it that they're causing harm to people in the area.

01:29:22 ◼   ► And that's a real bummer when your local leaders seem ill-equipped to manage it.

01:29:28 ◼   ► They just, you know, it's that terrible combo of politicians where it's not their subject matter, but they're pulled in by something that I think can get them reelected, right?

01:29:46 ◼   ► Which is, look how much money we brought to the town.

01:29:49 ◼   ► Look how many jobs we brought to the town.

01:29:52 ◼   ► Which can also be, like, you know, good intentions and all that, but, like, there is that kind of, like, I was going to say corruption in thinking, but the word is not what I'm trying to say.

01:30:04 ◼   ► Sure.

01:30:05 ◼   ► I'm not saying that, like, anyone has paid anyone any money or anything, because it's like, whatever, like, I don't know.

01:30:11 ◼   ► But it's that idea of, like, they're, you know, just like, oh, we could do this AI thing here.

01:30:15 ◼   ► Like, everyone's talking about it.

01:30:18 ◼   ► Like, that'd be so great for the city, right?

01:30:19 ◼   ► Like, we could be first.

01:30:21 ◼   ► We could be the leaders in the South.

01:30:23 ◼   ► We could be the leaders in America.

01:30:24 ◼   ► Like, it'd be amazing.

01:30:25 ◼   ► Like, let's encourage this.

01:30:27 ◼   ► We can give, like, and I don't particularly have a problem with this.

01:30:30 ◼   ► Like, we could tax breaks, right?

01:30:31 ◼   ► I'm sure that they will.

01:30:32 ◼   ► Like, that is how industry is encouraged.

01:30:34 ◼   ► This is the entertainment industry and stuff like that, right?

01:30:36 ◼   ► Like, it's a big thing in London.

01:30:37 ◼   ► Like, you can incentivize it.

01:30:40 ◼   ► Typically, it brings jobs, but, like, it's unknown.

01:30:43 ◼   ► But things like that can potentially happen, depending on how things go.

01:30:49 ◼   ► Like, I see how it happens.

01:30:51 ◼   ► And those incentives are in place.

01:30:52 ◼   ► Like, one of the things, so I would say, XAI has not taken advantage of everything it could have in terms of government incentives, which I think is interesting.

01:31:05 ◼   ► The new company coming to town, they have done more of that, but, like, their average pay has to be, I think it was, like, $80,000 a year, which is a lot in a city like Memphis.

01:31:15 ◼   ► But, again, this is different.

01:31:17 ◼   ► Like, if you're incentivizing a car factory, to go back to the other example, that's hundreds and hundreds of people, maybe thousands of people.

01:31:24 ◼   ► Even though they're so roboticized now, it takes a lot of people still.

01:31:28 ◼   ► It's like building an iPhone.

01:31:29 ◼   ► Right.

01:31:30 ◼   ► And, in fact, Ford is building a giant plant 40 minutes outside of the city limits, and they're hiring tons of people.

01:31:38 ◼   ► And that part of the state is, like, blowing up in terms of population because of that.

01:31:43 ◼   ► Building a data center, it takes a lot of people in investment, right?

01:31:46 ◼   ► It's a lot of money.

01:31:46 ◼   ► You know, H100s or H1000s, whatever they are.

01:31:49 ◼   ► Like, NVIDIA charges a lot for that.

01:31:51 ◼   ► It takes a lot to build the centers and, like, build the cooling.

01:31:55 ◼   ► But once that's all done and it's running, the day-to-day isn't that many jobs.

01:32:00 ◼   ► And if you're a chamber of commerce or you're a city council, jobs is, like, what people ask you about every day.

01:32:07 ◼   ► And this doesn't really fulfill that.

01:32:09 ◼   ► No, it's like a short-term thing, right?

01:32:12 ◼   ► Like, there's a bunch of contractors in Memphis right now who are doing great.

01:32:15 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, they're killing it.

01:32:16 ◼   ► But, like, this is the thing.

01:32:18 ◼   ► Like, you see how it gets to the situation, but it requires the follow-up.

01:32:22 ◼   ► But the problem is, like, we're getting real exascentral now.

01:32:25 ◼   ► But part of the problem of, like, this kind of elected official is, like, long-term thinking is not important.

01:32:31 ◼   ► It is, what is the thing I can do in the next three years?

01:32:36 ◼   ► Anything past that, it doesn't matter because I'm – it's not what I live for the next three to four-year cycle, right?

01:32:44 ◼   ► Like, that is part of the problem in modern politics, I think, in a bunch of places.

01:32:47 ◼   ► Like, no one's willing to – like, we're having a big problem in the UK with our water provider in general.

01:32:53 ◼   ► And this is a problem that if someone would have actually started doing something about it years ago,

01:32:59 ◼   ► then the water situation in London would be so much better, and England in general, like, or just around the Thames.

01:33:07 ◼   ► But because nobody did it, we're now in a situation where the plumbing is just falling apart.

01:33:11 ◼   ► And it's costing us so much more money because nobody did anything about it years and years ago when these problems were enabled.

01:33:21 ◼   ► Because it was like, why would I do something that might be effective 10 years from now?

01:33:25 ◼   ► I won't even be running for office then.

01:33:28 ◼   ► And that's the problem.

01:33:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:33:30 ◼   ► Maybe we should run for office.

01:33:32 ◼   ► I don't want to.

01:33:33 ◼   ► I would hate that, actually.

01:33:35 ◼   ► I think – I don't think I'd be very good at it, and I wouldn't want to do it.

01:33:38 ◼   ► But I appreciate this.

01:33:40 ◼   ► This is really interesting stuff.

01:33:41 ◼   ► It sucks.

01:33:43 ◼   ► It really sucks for Memphis.

01:33:44 ◼   ► Like, it should have been a good thing, and it isn't.

01:33:47 ◼   ► And I hope that it can be, right?

01:33:50 ◼   ► Like, I hope that something can make it better.

01:33:52 ◼   ► But, like, yeah, this isn't –

01:33:54 ◼   ► And it won't ever get better if people don't address it or talk about it.

01:33:59 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

01:33:59 ◼   ► And so it's been really amazing to see, like, national coverage of this start as well.

01:34:05 ◼   ► Like, I've linked to stuff on 512.

01:34:07 ◼   ► Like, Politico and The New Yorker had something.

01:34:10 ◼   ► Like, it is happening more.

01:34:13 ◼   ► Now, part of that –

01:34:15 ◼   ► And I have tried really hard in my coverage and talking about today to separate my local issues

01:34:21 ◼   ► and my personal feelings for the man who owns the company, right?

01:34:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:34:26 ◼   ► That has not been true in all the reporting.

01:34:28 ◼   ► Like, there was one article I did not link to because it turned into, like, that dude's a bad dude,

01:34:34 ◼   ► which I agree with, but, like, my issue is, like, well, you're pumping smog into, like, really poor neighborhoods in my city.

01:34:41 ◼   ► That's bad.

01:34:43 ◼   ► And we can separate those things.

01:34:44 ◼   ► Well, you actually might be lucky about the fact that I see London in that regard.

01:34:48 ◼   ► That does –

01:34:50 ◼   ► Yeah, that's true.

01:34:50 ◼   ► I hadn't thought about it that way, but yeah.

01:34:51 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

01:34:52 ◼   ► Because more people will pay attention to it.

01:34:54 ◼   ► Like, this –

01:34:56 ◼   ► It would not get national coverage if it was, like –

01:34:59 ◼   ► Whatever that other company is.

01:35:00 ◼   ► Whose name I can't even remember.

01:35:02 ◼   ► Exactly.

01:35:03 ◼   ► You don't know, right?

01:35:03 ◼   ► And that you are proving the – like, that is a proof of the point.

01:35:06 ◼   ► It's like, people know it because it's him, so it gets more attention, so it may actually be more likely that something would be forced to change in it.

01:35:14 ◼   ► I will hope for you and for Memphis.

01:35:16 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:35:16 ◼   ► So, yeah, we'll see.

01:35:20 ◼   ► And some cities, like Atlanta, I talked to a reader, like, Atlanta and some other areas have put good rules into place about where these places can go and how they're powered.

01:35:29 ◼   ► And we just haven't done it.

01:35:33 ◼   ► I would like to finish up today's episode of a very quick anecdote, which is soul-crushing to me.

01:35:37 ◼   ► So, Stephen and I both share a tattoo, and it is a tattoo of the Relay 5th Anniversary artwork.

01:35:45 ◼   ► It made a special artwork for anniversary, and it's like the half circle, but five times in a little spiral.

01:35:51 ◼   ► Oh, I know what you're going to say.

01:35:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:35:53 ◼   ► You have a ChatGPT logo on your arm?

01:35:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:35:57 ◼   ► What?

01:35:58 ◼   ► They thought it was the ChatGPT logo.

01:36:00 ◼   ► Oh, no.

01:36:01 ◼   ► This is potentially worse than my COVID tattoo.

01:36:05 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:36:06 ◼   ► Which I also have.

01:36:08 ◼   ► Mike has refused to because he's a coward.

01:36:10 ◼   ► That's not true.

01:36:11 ◼   ► I have a whole plan, but I just got to go to a certain place to get it done.

01:36:15 ◼   ► I will put something in the show notes with the ChatGPT logo and the Relay 5 logo side-by-side.

01:36:20 ◼   ► They don't look that close to each other.

01:36:23 ◼   ► They just like...

01:36:24 ◼   ► Put it like first glance.

01:36:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:36:26 ◼   ► I mean, and that's what it was, right?

01:36:27 ◼   ► It kind of did.

01:36:28 ◼   ► And I was like, oh, no, no, no.

01:36:29 ◼   ► No, it's not that.

01:36:30 ◼   ► So that's what I'm dealing with.

01:36:32 ◼   ► Oh, man.

01:36:33 ◼   ► Well, I think that does it.

01:36:36 ◼   ► I think we've reached the end.

01:36:37 ◼   ► We've vibed.

01:36:39 ◼   ► We've coded.

01:36:40 ◼   ► I would say, get you a podcast that can do both.

01:36:42 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:36:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:36:44 ◼   ► That's what we do here.

01:36:46 ◼   ► It's like we could talk about what we find interesting in AI and also how AI is destroying

01:36:52 ◼   ► a city.

01:36:53 ◼   ► You know?

01:36:55 ◼   ► It contains multitudes.

01:36:57 ◼   ► Because here's the thing.

01:36:58 ◼   ► Like, this is a complicated subject, right?

01:37:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:37:00 ◼   ► And it...

01:37:02 ◼   ► There's good and bad to it.

01:37:06 ◼   ► Like all things in the world, right?

01:37:08 ◼   ► If anyone ever tells you something is all the way good or all the way bad, it's just not

01:37:13 ◼   ► true.

01:37:13 ◼   ► Just not true.

01:37:14 ◼   ► Okay.

01:37:15 ◼   ► If you want more of us, we are online.

01:37:18 ◼   ► Say that you want to find some show notes for the show, right?

01:37:22 ◼   ► Like, oh, man, those stories sound really cool.

01:37:24 ◼   ► I want to build an app with vibes.

01:37:26 ◼   ► Those links are in the podcast player of your choice.

01:37:29 ◼   ► They're also on the web at relay.fm slash connected slash 552.

01:37:35 ◼   ► A couple of those links are really special.

01:37:39 ◼   ► They're just so special.

01:37:40 ◼   ► They're more special than the others.

01:37:41 ◼   ► The first one is where you can join and get connected pro, which is a longer ad-free version

01:37:47 ◼   ► of the show that we do each and every week.

01:37:49 ◼   ► This week's was a little unusual in that we talked about Federico's...

01:37:53 ◼   ► Well, he's the Pope.

01:37:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:37:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:37:56 ◼   ► Sort of.

01:37:58 ◼   ► Kind of.

01:37:58 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:37:59 ◼   ► Congrats.

01:37:59 ◼   ► And we're so glad you're back.

01:38:02 ◼   ► We missed you last week.

01:38:03 ◼   ► You can...

01:38:04 ◼   ► Me too.

01:38:04 ◼   ► You can also leave us feedback or a follow-up.

01:38:07 ◼   ► That link is also in the show notes.

01:38:09 ◼   ► You can make it anonymous.

01:38:11 ◼   ► You can write us a poem.

01:38:12 ◼   ► Whatever you want to do.

01:38:14 ◼   ► You can do that as well on the website.

01:38:18 ◼   ► You can find Federico's work at maxstories.net.

01:38:22 ◼   ► Lots of great stuff going over at Max Stories just all the time, building out the team, doing

01:38:27 ◼   ► lots of stuff.

01:38:28 ◼   ► Very exciting.

01:38:29 ◼   ► And you can also listen to Federico on App Stories with John Voorhees.

01:38:33 ◼   ► It's an excellent show, even though I'm a few episodes behind.

01:38:36 ◼   ► It's still very good.

01:38:36 ◼   ► Very good.

01:38:38 ◼   ► John is really like...

01:38:40 ◼   ► I feel like he's winning the podcast circuit right now because of his lawyer background.

01:38:43 ◼   ► Yes.

01:38:45 ◼   ► You know, like that's really coming in a clutch for y'all.

01:38:47 ◼   ► Very well positioned right now.

01:38:49 ◼   ► It's like how you're from Memphis, which means you can talk about that.

01:38:53 ◼   ► That's right.

01:38:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:38:54 ◼   ► I don't have anything, but eventually, maybe one day.

01:38:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:38:59 ◼   ► Hey, look, you know.

01:38:59 ◼   ► What?

01:39:01 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:39:02 ◼   ► What?

01:39:03 ◼   ► Something.

01:39:03 ◼   ► Something could happen.

01:39:05 ◼   ► Okay.

01:39:08 ◼   ► You can find Mike Hurley on a bunch of other podcasts here on Relay.

01:39:13 ◼   ► Find his work at Cortex Brand.

01:39:14 ◼   ► The new notebooks are very good.

01:39:16 ◼   ► Thank you.

01:39:17 ◼   ► Go check those out.

01:39:18 ◼   ► You can find my writing at 512pixels.net, and I co-host Mac Power Users here on Relay each

01:39:25 ◼   ► and every Sunday afternoon.

01:39:26 ◼   ► I'd like to thank our sponsors, FitBot and Ecamm.

01:39:29 ◼   ► And until next week, guys, say goodbye.

01:39:31 ◼   ► Arrivederci.

01:39:33 ◼   ► Cheerio.

01:39:34 ◼   ► Bye, y'all.