The Talk Show

00:00:00 ◼   ► Hello and welcome to the magnificent California Theater in bustling downtown San Jose.

00:00:10 ◼   ► We are delighted to bring you another edition of the talk show live with special guests.

00:00:18 ◼   ► And now, here's your host, John Gruber.

00:00:30 ◼   ► Hello. Hello, thank you for coming.

00:00:40 ◼   ► I am your host, John Gruber.

00:00:44 ◼   ► I have some business to take care of up front, as usual.

00:00:49 ◼   ► Theaters like this do not rent themselves.

00:00:52 ◼   ► And we have three excellent sponsors, and I want to thank them all.

00:00:58 ◼   ► If you guys remember last year, you'll remember our primary sponsor was iMazing.

00:01:03 ◼   ► They are back again last year.

00:01:05 ◼   ► They were here to talk about iMazing 3.

00:01:08 ◼   ► They are back this year to talk about the best experience for managing local iOS backups, device backups, including snapshots like Time Machine.

00:01:22 ◼   ► That's what iMazing does.

00:01:25 ◼   ► It is a beautiful native app.

00:01:27 ◼   ► It is also a robust app management tool for maintaining a local library of iOS apps like iTunes used to offer and doesn't anymore.

00:01:37 ◼   ► And a lot of people want.

00:01:38 ◼   ► iMazing does it.

00:01:40 ◼   ► And it probably does it better than iTunes ever did, really.

00:01:43 ◼   ► Helpful, iMazing and WhatsApp chat extraction to PDF and other formats, including RSMF for legal and business apps.

00:01:54 ◼   ► I don't know what that means, but if you do, it sounds like it's important for people to do, and iMazing does it great.

00:02:02 ◼   ► They have a device file browser, data access, and data transfer capabilities that can be especially helpful for, well, let's say nerds, but developers, pros, system administrators.

00:02:15 ◼   ► So, for that last group, system administrators, this year, they've got iMazing profile editor, too.

00:02:20 ◼   ► It's the best way to work with Apple configuration files.

00:02:24 ◼   ► It includes total app setup.

00:02:26 ◼   ► It scans macOS app binaries and streamlines, setting up all required configurations and permissions.

00:02:33 ◼   ► It is designed to save time, reduce errors, and complex deployment.

00:02:39 ◼   ► There's also iMazing configurator.

00:02:41 ◼   ► It adds powerful capabilities for provisioning, supervising, and automating Apple iOS device setup at scale beyond what Apple configurator offers.

00:02:51 ◼   ► It streamlines MDM enrollment and migration processes.

00:02:55 ◼   ► They've got a brand new, it's unique to iMazing, an enroll in MDM feature that allows devices to be migrated between MDM platforms while preserving the data on the device.

00:03:08 ◼   ► This is apparently a big deal for people who need to migrate MDM stuff.

00:03:13 ◼   ► I will just say, a lot of that sounded a little boring and nerdy, but if it's like your work, it's really important.

00:03:20 ◼   ► But the thing about iMazing, it is like amazing to look at.

00:03:23 ◼   ► It is not like, oh, look at it, this is like a nerd app.

00:03:26 ◼   ► It's like a beautiful, like, you know, maybe nominated for an ADA type app that does all this nerdy stuff.

00:03:33 ◼   ► It is perfect, honestly, perfect sponsor for this show.

00:03:37 ◼   ► Check out iMazing 3 today.

00:03:39 ◼   ► Save 20%.

00:03:40 ◼   ► This isn't just for you guys in the audience.

00:03:42 ◼   ► Everybody out there watching in theater, everybody watching later in the future on YouTube.

00:03:46 ◼   ► Save 20% by visiting iMazing.com slash the talk show.

00:03:53 ◼   ► That's iMazing.com slash the talk show.

00:03:57 ◼   ► Next, Details Pro.

00:03:59 ◼   ► They're actually sponsoring Daring Fireball this week, too.

00:04:02 ◼   ► You might have seen them already.

00:04:05 ◼   ► It is an app that lets you design SwiftUI things.

00:04:09 ◼   ► Apps, widgets, anything you can do with SwiftUI.

00:04:13 ◼   ► That's sort of the whole point of SwiftUI is if it has a user interface, you can design it with SwiftUI.

00:04:18 ◼   ► Details Pro can do it for you.

00:04:21 ◼   ► It runs.

00:04:22 ◼   ► It's an app.

00:04:23 ◼   ► You can use it on your iPhone.

00:04:25 ◼   ► It runs on your iPad.

00:04:27 ◼   ► It runs on Mac.

00:04:27 ◼   ► They also have a great Vision Pro app with full features on all of those platforms.

00:04:33 ◼   ► There are great templates built in that you can use so you can get started without starting from scratch like an empty template or an empty canvas.

00:04:42 ◼   ► Templates for everything.

00:04:44 ◼   ► It is really a fast and easy way to get new designs ready for iOS 26 and Liquid Glass.

00:04:51 ◼   ► It's ready for this.

00:04:53 ◼   ► It's the perfect time for them to sponsor.

00:04:54 ◼   ► You can use the Basic Tools and Details Pro for free.

00:04:59 ◼   ► The Basic Tools, a lot of the templates, free forever.

00:05:03 ◼   ► Just download it, check it out, try it.

00:05:05 ◼   ► There's a whole bunch of stuff you can do free forever.

00:05:06 ◼   ► And then there's a subscription or a one-time purchase to unlock all the tools and all the templates.

00:05:13 ◼   ► Details Pro has been around for five years and has a really big thriving community of UI designers and developers.

00:05:20 ◼   ► And again, SwiftUI that just goes right into Xcode.

00:05:23 ◼   ► This is real stuff that you can design it and then right into production in Xcode.

00:05:28 ◼   ► Really great stuff.

00:05:29 ◼   ► Go to detailspro.app.

00:05:32 ◼   ► One of those .app domains.

00:05:34 ◼   ► Detailspro.app.

00:05:36 ◼   ► Third, our third and final sponsor.

00:05:39 ◼   ► Another great company.

00:05:41 ◼   ► Not really developer-oriented, but I'll bet a real crowd-pleaser here.

00:05:45 ◼   ► Ooni.

00:05:45 ◼   ► O-O-N-I.

00:05:47 ◼   ► Ooni created a new category of pizza ovens about a dozen years ago.

00:05:55 ◼   ► And they're going from strength to strength with their industry-defining products.

00:05:59 ◼   ► Their range starts at just $299.

00:06:02 ◼   ► But with Father's Day coming up, you should definitely check out the Koda 2 and Koda 2 Pro pizza ovens.

00:06:13 ◼   ► Beyond pizza ovens, they're continuing to innovate.

00:06:15 ◼   ► They've got a brand-new Halo Pro spiral mixer, which is huge for people who need, you know, they're sort of bringing smart stuff into the sort of, I'm not going to name names, but there's, you know, a couple big names in the mixer category.

00:06:30 ◼   ► And they're shaking things up.

00:06:31 ◼   ► Or mixing things up, maybe I'll say.

00:06:33 ◼   ► Finally, Ooni.

00:06:36 ◼   ► They even got, there is sort of a developer connection here.

00:06:39 ◼   ► They got a little mention in yesterday's keynote.

00:06:41 ◼   ► I don't know if you noticed.

00:06:42 ◼   ► I did because I'm talking to them for sponsorships.

00:06:45 ◼   ► But that was pretty cool.

00:06:47 ◼   ► Christian, the founder of Ooni.

00:06:49 ◼   ► He's somewhere out here.

00:06:50 ◼   ► He's a long-time Daring Fireball reader.

00:06:53 ◼   ► He's in the audience tonight.

00:06:54 ◼   ► He's, like, I think still on cloud nine because they got into the keynote yesterday.

00:06:58 ◼   ► Which, if anybody's ever gotten anything in the keynote, it's a big deal.

00:07:02 ◼   ► So my thanks to them.

00:07:04 ◼   ► Go to Ooni, O-O-N-I dot com slash the talk show.

00:07:11 ◼   ► O-O-N-I dot com slash the talk show.

00:07:16 ◼   ► And that's good for a 10% off.

00:07:19 ◼   ► That code, the talk show, 10% off.

00:07:23 ◼   ► So my thanks to all three of those sponsors.

00:07:24 ◼   ► Wouldn't be here without them.

00:07:26 ◼   ► Speaking of not being here.

00:07:30 ◼   ► I actually forget the first year I did a live from WWDC talk show.

00:07:47 ◼   ► It's probably like 2009, 2010.

00:07:49 ◼   ► And the first few years were, you know, sort of pals from my regular weekly or couple times

00:07:58 ◼   ► a month, whatever my schedule is, podcast.

00:08:00 ◼   ► Cable Sasser from Panic was the first guest the first year.

00:08:04 ◼   ► Guy English was here one year.

00:08:11 ◼   ► I think the 2014 I had my friends, all three of them, from the Accidental Tech Podcast were here.

00:08:18 ◼   ► And then in 2015 I came out.

00:08:25 ◼   ► We were still in San Francisco at Mezzanine, a sort of nightclub that we retrofitted to do stuff like this.

00:08:33 ◼   ► And I've always played this game where I've tried to keep my guests secret before I call them out on stage.

00:08:39 ◼   ► I think that's fun.

00:08:40 ◼   ► You know, it works better than usually it seems to stay under wraps.

00:08:45 ◼   ► 2015 definitely stayed under wraps.

00:08:50 ◼   ► And I came out here, and I still remember the introduction.

00:08:54 ◼   ► I thought, I didn't run it past him, but I said, ladies and gentlemen, I shit you not.

00:08:59 ◼   ► Phil Schiller.

00:09:02 ◼   ► And the crowd was like, what?

00:09:06 ◼   ► You know.

00:09:08 ◼   ► And it was kind of raucous.

00:09:10 ◼   ► And the curtain was right behind me.

00:09:14 ◼   ► And nobody came out.

00:09:15 ◼   ► And it is sort of my sense of humor, maybe, to say, nah, it's Maltz.

00:09:23 ◼   ► And I did not know Phil was going to do that.

00:09:28 ◼   ► But then Phil Schiller came out, perfectly timed to make everybody in the audience think,

00:09:34 ◼   ► it's Gruber, shit me.

00:09:36 ◼   ► And it was amazing.

00:09:39 ◼   ► It was a lot of fun, and Phil was great.

00:09:42 ◼   ► And it's, you know, I didn't know.

00:09:44 ◼   ► It was at one time.

00:09:45 ◼   ► Next thing I knew, 10 consecutive years, I had guests of that sort of level from Apple's

00:09:54 ◼   ► senior leadership on this show, either the day.

00:09:58 ◼   ► I think one year we did it on Wednesday.

00:09:59 ◼   ► I don't know why.

00:10:00 ◼   ► But usually the day after the keynote.

00:10:02 ◼   ► You know, and this year, I thought, well, when I found out, it wasn't going to happen.

00:10:12 ◼   ► I thought, well, I need to announce that.

00:10:16 ◼   ► Like, you know, I don't want people buying tickets.

00:10:18 ◼   ► I don't want sponsors sponsoring the show, expecting that if that's not what's going to happen.

00:10:23 ◼   ► And then I kind of realized, man, it's really 10 years of this, and it really did sort of bake

00:10:28 ◼   ► in the expectation of that.

00:10:32 ◼   ► I did extend an invitation to Apple.

00:10:34 ◼   ► They declined.

00:10:36 ◼   ► And their declining was more than a simple no.

00:10:39 ◼   ► There were reasons given.

00:10:44 ◼   ► There was a discussion.

00:10:46 ◼   ► It's not acrimonious.

00:10:48 ◼   ► I mean, you know, and I've been told many times over the last 24 hours since I've been out here

00:10:52 ◼   ► that they still love me.

00:10:56 ◼   ► Funny way of showing it, but they do.

00:10:58 ◼   ► But I'll leave it at that.

00:11:05 ◼   ► But I always said, I've come out here and joked before, that one of these years, you know,

00:11:11 ◼   ► I never, ever took it for granted.

00:11:14 ◼   ► I'm, in hindsight, kind of surprised they did it 10 years in a row.

00:11:17 ◼   ► But I always said, one of these years, it's going to be Maltz.

00:11:22 ◼   ► So I called John Maltz.

00:11:24 ◼   ► And I said, you know, I gave him the story, and he said, well, I just wouldn't be comfortable

00:11:35 ◼   ► doing your show.

00:11:36 ◼   ► I think a lot of your writing about Apple of late has been unfair.

00:11:46 ◼   ► You had that piece that you titled, Something is Rotten in the State of Cupertino, and I just

00:11:54 ◼   ► wouldn't be comfortable, after you wrote that, I wouldn't be comfortable coming out on your

00:11:57 ◼   ► show.

00:11:57 ◼   ► I don't think that was fair or accurate.

00:11:59 ◼   ► And I said, John, you know, what parts of it do you not agree with?

00:12:05 ◼   ► And he couldn't really put his finger on anything in particular that wasn't accurate, but he just

00:12:10 ◼   ► said he wouldn't be comfortable.

00:12:11 ◼   ► And I said, well, I've got other friends.

00:12:15 ◼   ► And I do.

00:12:18 ◼   ► I have two of my best friends, and I think you're going to be very, very happy.

00:12:24 ◼   ► I think we're going to have a very good conversation.

00:12:26 ◼   ► So without any further ado, Joanna Stern and Neelai Patel.

00:12:34 ◼   ► Neelai's playing the role of Craig, and I'm doing Jaws.

00:12:59 ◼   ► No, no, Jaws sits far further to just sort of jump in and...

00:13:05 ◼   ► So I have to interrupt you before you might answer a question.

00:13:07 ◼   ► Yes.

00:13:08 ◼   ► That's my word.

00:13:08 ◼   ► I should have let the gray hair grow out.

00:13:11 ◼   ► The Verge does a great thing with tech keynotes.

00:13:21 ◼   ► They'll take, for example, Google I.O. in 29 minutes, right?

00:13:26 ◼   ► I think that was what it came down to.

00:13:27 ◼   ► You'll take a long thing and sort of cut it down to the bones.

00:13:33 ◼   ► From yesterday's keynote, Apple did Apple Intelligence in four minutes.

00:13:43 ◼   ► So I feel like they did the editing job for the Verge.

00:13:47 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:47 ◼   ► A lot of the big tech companies have just stolen our moves.

00:13:50 ◼   ► Like, they do their own live vlogs now.

00:13:52 ◼   ► They do their own supercuts.

00:13:54 ◼   ► They try to tell their own jokes.

00:13:57 ◼   ► You know, like you do.

00:14:00 ◼   ► And in particular, that we made a supercut of our own show has always struck me as being like,

00:14:06 ◼   ► you know it could have just been shorter then, right?

00:14:08 ◼   ► Well, I don't think the Apple Intelligence segment yesterday could have been much shorter.

00:14:15 ◼   ► Well, it was diffused throughout the entire...

00:14:18 ◼   ► All of Apple is Apple Intelligence now.

00:14:20 ◼   ► What did you think about that, about them leading with Apple Intelligence

00:14:24 ◼   ► and Craig Federighi just sort of recapping last year's announcement?

00:14:29 ◼   ► You know, I think it's somewhat straight on.

00:14:34 ◼   ► You know, some of the stuff we did, we announced recently was going to ship in the coming year.

00:14:40 ◼   ► And we look forward to talking about it later.

00:14:42 ◼   ► And then just rip the Band-Aid off and be done with it.

00:14:45 ◼   ► Well, actually, can I just answer this question like a politician?

00:14:49 ◼   ► Hi, everybody.

00:14:49 ◼   ► I'm Yala Patel.

00:14:50 ◼   ► He's running for Congress.

00:14:52 ◼   ► Yes.

00:14:53 ◼   ► Please vote Patel.

00:14:54 ◼   ► I promise all the phones will have USB-C soon.

00:14:57 ◼   ► We will take the fight to Europe and win.

00:15:00 ◼   ► I just want to say, John and Joanna and I all came up in the same sort of era of web publishing.

00:15:06 ◼   ► And we had no access when we started.

00:15:08 ◼   ► Joanna's access was like getting netbook scoops.

00:15:11 ◼   ► And this is like a thing that Joanna and I talked about all the time.

00:15:14 ◼   ► Like, MSI doesn't know what's going to hit them.

00:15:15 ◼   ► We're going to leak the new wind.

00:15:16 ◼   ► We built our careers on this.

00:15:21 ◼   ► And the fact that any of us have any access now, and all of us have varying levels of lots of access, is cool.

00:15:25 ◼   ► It is not the point.

00:15:27 ◼   ► And John has built an entire career on not getting access and not needing the access.

00:15:31 ◼   ► And the less you need, the more you get.

00:15:33 ◼   ► And everyone is going to learn that lesson throughout the next year.

00:15:36 ◼   ► I am confident in it.

00:15:37 ◼   ► So I just want to say that to you, John.

00:15:38 ◼   ► Thank you, Nei.

00:15:39 ◼   ► Well, they are talking to some press.

00:15:52 ◼   ► And in fact, Joanna, you had Craig and Jaws on.

00:15:56 ◼   ► You see, there are varying levels of access on the stage.

00:16:00 ◼   ► When they asked me, I was like, this is going to be awkward.

00:16:03 ◼   ► I was like, yeah, I'm going to have to tell John.

00:16:07 ◼   ► And I, yeah.

00:16:08 ◼   ► But the back story of this interview that you did with Jaws and Federighi is kind of weird, right?

00:16:20 ◼   ► It's definitely weird.

00:16:21 ◼   ► It came together very last minute.

00:16:22 ◼   ► They asked me to do this yesterday, which is not a lot of time to prepare for an interview.

00:16:28 ◼   ► You've been preparing for this interview for, like, probably a year now.

00:16:32 ◼   ► Forty years.

00:16:33 ◼   ► Forty years.

00:16:34 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:35 ◼   ► Yeah, that's right.

00:16:36 ◼   ► That's when I was, we were born.

00:16:37 ◼   ► And so, yes, it came together very last minute.

00:16:42 ◼   ► But, of course, I knew, you know, really what I wanted to focus on was just the fallout of Apple intelligence

00:16:47 ◼   ► and exactly how you sort of kicked this off, which was yesterday.

00:16:50 ◼   ► This wasn't a big focus.

00:16:51 ◼   ► A year ago, you know, the kind of crazy thing is that maybe one of the biggest products of this WWDC

00:16:58 ◼   ► has been the fact that last year's products didn't ship.

00:17:01 ◼   ► Right.

00:17:01 ◼   ► There is a clip from Joanna's, and you're, at least, there might be a longer version of this that comes out.

00:17:12 ◼   ► Yes, today we, I shot this this morning at 8 a.m.

00:17:15 ◼   ► It's been a very long day.

00:17:17 ◼   ► We were at Apple Park at 6 a.m., so we cut quickly what the Apple intelligence part of this was

00:17:24 ◼   ► and a lot of talk about Siri, and then we will publish a longer bit about iPads and liquid glass and all the things.

00:17:31 ◼   ► All right, but before we play the clip, just, but, like, how far in advance do you usually set up

00:17:37 ◼   ► or get noticed that you'll get an interview like this?

00:17:40 ◼   ► Maybe a week or so.

00:17:44 ◼   ► I mean, it depends.

00:17:44 ◼   ► I mean, it depends if it's breaking news and there's, you know, something Apple's responding to.

00:17:49 ◼   ► You know, years ago there was the CSAM response, right?

00:17:53 ◼   ► And they put out the product and then they pulled it back, and so that was an interview I did probably within 48 hours.

00:18:00 ◼   ► Right.

00:18:00 ◼   ► But, um, last time I spoke, probably a week or so.

00:18:04 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:18:05 ◼   ► And, like...

00:18:06 ◼   ► But, I mean, in this case, like, I guess how...

00:18:08 ◼   ► I didn't know what the news was until yesterday, right?

00:18:11 ◼   ► Maybe they could have gotten up on stage and said, actually, we were shipping all the new Siri stuff and brand new Siri's here.

00:18:17 ◼   ► I mean, we had a hunch that wasn't going to happen.

00:18:18 ◼   ► So I'm not sure if all the extra time would have helped.

00:18:22 ◼   ► And, you know, AI's doing all the question writing now, so I don't need...

00:18:27 ◼   ► All right.

00:18:28 ◼   ► I don't need much time.

00:18:29 ◼   ► But we do have about a 90-second clip from the interview that I really want to talk about.

00:18:34 ◼   ► So can we play the clip?

00:18:36 ◼   ► So many people associate Apple and AI with Siri since about 10 years ago now.

00:18:43 ◼   ► Sure.

00:18:44 ◼   ► And so there is a real expectation that Siri should be as good, if not better, than the non-vision.

00:18:51 ◼   ► Okay, well, we...

00:18:52 ◼   ► That's certainly our mission.

00:18:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:18:55 ◼   ► That's our mission.

00:18:57 ◼   ► You know, we set out to tell people last year where we were going.

00:19:01 ◼   ► I think people were very excited about Apple's values there, an experience that's integrated into everything you do,

00:19:09 ◼   ► not a bolt-on chatbot on the side, something that is personal, something that is private.

00:19:14 ◼   ► We started building some of those and delivering some of those capabilities.

00:19:18 ◼   ► I, in a way, appreciate the fact that people really wanted the next version of Siri.

00:19:25 ◼   ► And we really want to deliver it for them.

00:19:27 ◼   ► But we want to do it the right way.

00:19:29 ◼   ► When's the right way going to come up?

00:19:30 ◼   ► Well, we really want to make sure that we have it very much in hand before we start talking about dates for obvious reasons.

00:19:37 ◼   ► And will that include these features that you had previously announced and more?

00:19:42 ◼   ► I mean, is this the effort to make Siri this more interactive AI companion?

00:19:47 ◼   ► Well, I mean, on one hand, I would love to dish about my enthusiasm for our future plans, but that's exactly what we don't want to do right now, right?

00:19:56 ◼   ► We set expectations.

00:19:59 ◼   ► We want to deliver something great that you and all of our customers really appreciate.

00:20:03 ◼   ► You know, the best thing to do when you make a mistake is to address the mistake and not do it again.

00:20:27 ◼   ► And, but it's, it's almost striking how, and I thought, you know, it's not, you know, Craig is Craig and he's very smooth.

00:20:39 ◼   ► But it's, I love that for obvious reasons.

00:20:44 ◼   ► We don't, we don't want to promise a date until we're really sure we're going to do it.

00:20:50 ◼   ► But you would have thought those reasons were just as obvious a year ago.

00:20:54 ◼   ► Well, so they, they, they've done a few interviews, um, and they have, they have an explanation now that they're going with in the way that like you could take all of the answers from all the interviews, put them into an LLM and then interview the LLM and like have a substantive conversation.

00:21:09 ◼   ► Um, and so the answer is they, it's not offensive.

00:21:13 ◼   ► It's not offensive.

00:21:14 ◼   ► You are not the problem.

00:21:16 ◼   ► You're also writing a book about letting AI take over your life.

00:21:18 ◼   ► It's true.

00:21:19 ◼   ► It's true.

00:21:19 ◼   ► Okay.

00:21:19 ◼   ► Please buy it next year.

00:21:23 ◼   ► Uh, so the, the, the framework of the answer is they, they set off down one path and that was, they are very mad at John for suggesting that they did not show real code.

00:21:32 ◼   ► Uh, and that is in John setting an area, which we should talk about this narrative that is taken hold, but they set off down one path and that was what they demoed last year.

00:21:40 ◼   ► And they somehow realized that wasn't going to have the quality bar and they set off on a new path and you can listen to Craig and Jaws say this in various interviews.

00:21:48 ◼   ► Um, I think the thing that is really interesting is the whole rest of the industry has identified the path that they want to be on for an assistant that can take actions across various apps and services on your behalf.

00:22:01 ◼   ► And the word Apple won't use is agent.

00:22:03 ◼   ► Like they just never talk about Siri as an agent that will go do stuff for you.

00:22:08 ◼   ► But then you go watch that demo from last year and it's just doing agent stuff.

00:22:11 ◼   ► Right.

00:22:12 ◼   ► You're like, what's in my email?

00:22:12 ◼   ► And it's like, here, I'm going to go do your email.

00:22:14 ◼   ► I'm going to go book you a car.

00:22:15 ◼   ► Whatever you see in all of these demos, the whole rest of the industry is like, these are agents and here's how we're going to build them.

00:22:21 ◼   ► Here are the standards we're going to use.

00:22:23 ◼   ► And like all these like technical words, it's a room full of developers.

00:22:25 ◼   ► MCP, they're going to, they're going to do all this stuff.

00:22:28 ◼   ► And then we're going to have to reorganize the business models of the web to make this happen.

00:22:31 ◼   ► Apple is like, we're going to do Siri app intents.

00:22:34 ◼   ► And it's basically the same stuff, but we can't use all the same words because people get confused.

00:22:38 ◼   ► And the question that I have is when did they realize that the architecture was wrong?

00:22:45 ◼   ► Because I think the whole industry picked the other architecture already and they're building it in public.

00:22:52 ◼   ► And they're, no one has done this well, right?

00:22:54 ◼   ► Alexa, they claim that a million people have Alexa plus.

00:22:57 ◼   ► Does one person in this room have Alexa plus?

00:22:59 ◼   ► We can't see.

00:23:01 ◼   ► No, the wheezing side does not count.

00:23:03 ◼   ► You have to actually say yes.

00:23:06 ◼   ► You have to say it and shout it.

00:23:07 ◼   ► You do?

00:23:07 ◼   ► Really?

00:23:08 ◼   ► Is it any good?

00:23:09 ◼   ► Get that person up on stage.

00:23:17 ◼   ► He's the one person with Alexa.

00:23:19 ◼   ► Better than Alexa is a low bar.

00:23:23 ◼   ► Is that Panos Panay?

00:23:24 ◼   ► Do you work for Amazon?

00:23:26 ◼   ► Okay.

00:23:29 ◼   ► Thank you, Mr. Bezos.

00:23:30 ◼   ► So there's like a million people out there having whatever experience that is with Alexa.

00:23:38 ◼   ► By the way, Bezos wanted a free ticket.

00:23:43 ◼   ► Google announced a whole bunch of stuff that Gemini can do in Project Mariner, which is going to run Chrome in the cloud and click around on TaskRabbit for you.

00:23:49 ◼   ► Microsoft has all these ideas about MCB.

00:23:51 ◼   ► They're all doing it.

00:23:52 ◼   ► You can go use computer use on OpenAI and it's slow and broken.

00:23:55 ◼   ► But they're like, here's the mechanism by which we're going to do this.

00:23:58 ◼   ► Apple hasn't demonstrated any of that.

00:24:01 ◼   ► And the thing that they're saying is, we got it wrong.

00:24:03 ◼   ► The first cut was wrong.

00:24:05 ◼   ► It was never going to be good enough and we had to invest in the second cut.

00:24:07 ◼   ► But they won't say what they got wrong or what the new approach is.

00:24:11 ◼   ► And I think that's going to lead to a lot of confusion down the road.

00:24:14 ◼   ► If it turns out every app and service has to not use what the rest of the industry is using and they have to use weird Apple stuff.

00:24:21 ◼   ► And it's not that Apple can't get people to use weird Apple stuff.

00:24:24 ◼   ► Objective C, right?

00:24:25 ◼   ► They're very good at getting people to use weird Apple stuff.

00:24:29 ◼   ► Weird in a cool way.

00:24:30 ◼   ► Yeah, not weird like Sony memory card formats.

00:24:35 ◼   ► Weird like Apple is like our standard is better and we have the install base so you've got to deal with it.

00:24:40 ◼   ► But I really mean it with Objective C.

00:24:43 ◼   ► I never got into coding it myself, but I have many, many dear friends who absolutely love it.

00:24:49 ◼   ► Some who still love it.

00:24:50 ◼   ► I know Gus is out there somewhere.

00:24:52 ◼   ► Who also got in the keynote, by the way, Acorn.

00:24:56 ◼   ► But that's a perfect example though, right?

00:25:00 ◼   ► I mean, let's just face it.

00:25:02 ◼   ► Nobody else ever used Objective C other than Next and then Apple.

00:25:05 ◼   ► Anyway, but the place you would point out, like here's our new architecture and here's what you have to do to let your app or service

00:25:13 ◼   ► be addressed by our agent is at the Worldwide Developers Conference and that it still, I think, remains as opaque as ever.

00:25:19 ◼   ► And that's the disconnect for me in all of the messaging about why we got it wrong.

00:25:24 ◼   ► Because you would correct it by saying, and here's how we're going to make sure it works when it actually hits, is that all of these apps and services will connect to it.

00:25:33 ◼   ► What did you think during the interview?

00:25:34 ◼   ► Did you think they wanted to talk about that or did they, did you think they knew you were going to ask them?

00:25:38 ◼   ► I think they knew.

00:25:40 ◼   ► I mean, they're, and what Neal is mapping out is, he's right.

00:25:43 ◼   ► A lot, they answered this very similarly across the interviews where they talked about the one of this architecture.

00:25:47 ◼   ► They actually had it.

00:25:49 ◼   ► We, I asked very clearly in, in one of the questions, you know, was this actually code?

00:25:54 ◼   ► Was this at, or was this vaporware?

00:25:55 ◼   ► Jaws said very clearly, this was not just demo where it was actually running.

00:26:00 ◼   ► But that we, we started using it.

00:26:02 ◼   ► We had a lot of errors.

00:26:03 ◼   ► We went down a path.

00:26:04 ◼   ► And Craig also says in the interview, especially when Siri, you know, you go off path with it.

00:26:10 ◼   ► Right.

00:26:10 ◼   ► And so if you were asking things that weren't directly, you know, Siri speak, it sounds like things were kind of going off path.

00:26:16 ◼   ► And so now they moved to a V2, as Neal is explaining really well.

00:26:20 ◼   ► And I think they're right in not wanting to talk about this right now.

00:26:26 ◼   ► I do too.

00:26:26 ◼   ► Right.

00:26:27 ◼   ► They've learned some lessons of the last year.

00:26:30 ◼   ► They learned it.

00:26:30 ◼   ► They, they learned it.

00:26:32 ◼   ► I think they were going to learn it.

00:26:33 ◼   ► But I think especially your piece was extremely impactful, which is why did this happen?

00:26:38 ◼   ► How does this happen at this type of company?

00:26:40 ◼   ► Why is the marketing happening?

00:26:41 ◼   ► And I think then you sort of look ahead and you can look at what happened to Amazon.

00:26:45 ◼   ► They had a very similar issue.

00:26:47 ◼   ► I mean, they announced, it wasn't even Alexa Plus at that time.

00:26:50 ◼   ► It was this generative AI Alexa two years ago.

00:26:54 ◼   ► They realized it's hard and that's nothing.

00:26:56 ◼   ► And then they just do another launch event in February.

00:26:59 ◼   ► Was that February?

00:27:00 ◼   ► And only this guy has it.

00:27:02 ◼   ► And I, I do think that.

00:27:08 ◼   ► I mean, that guy, we must speak to you.

00:27:15 ◼   ► I've been on social media asking people all the time, do you have this?

00:27:18 ◼   ► And no one has it.

00:27:19 ◼   ► I, I actually have an Echo 95, whatever the big screen is in my kitchen waiting for it.

00:27:27 ◼   ► I'm like every day.

00:27:28 ◼   ► I'm like, are you there, Alexa Plus?

00:27:29 ◼   ► Anyway, this is not about Alexa.

00:27:33 ◼   ► I do think it's really telling though, that last year's keynote had like 40 minutes of Apple intelligence.

00:27:41 ◼   ► And it, you know, they needed to introduce it.

00:27:43 ◼   ► They wanted the brand name.

00:27:44 ◼   ► And I, I, it had to be a certain length, but that's an extraordinary length for something that is not one of their platforms.

00:27:54 ◼   ► You know, their platforms are, correspond to their devices.

00:27:57 ◼   ► That is what Apple does.

00:27:59 ◼   ► They sell phones.

00:28:00 ◼   ► They sell iPads.

00:28:01 ◼   ► They sell Macs.

00:28:02 ◼   ► They sell, uh, Vision Pro.

00:28:05 ◼   ► They sell Apple TV.

00:28:06 ◼   ► Those are the, are watches.

00:28:08 ◼   ► They sell platforms and last year they spent 40 minutes on Apple intelligence.

00:28:15 ◼   ► And then like the parts that were the most memorable, you know, that's, that's the other thing that I find in these interviews is, and what I tried to put my finger on writing about it is it's not just like, oh, they announced 10 things and four of the 10 things didn't ship and are going to be postponed.

00:28:36 ◼   ► They correspond directly to how impressive they are and how uniquely positioned Apple is to do them, right?

00:28:43 ◼   ► Like nobody else is going to get a semantic index on everybody's iPhone that can be queried running locally on device.

00:28:52 ◼   ► They, and yet this year with only four minutes up front for the whole dedicated Apple intelligence segment, I thought the keynote as a whole was way stronger on AI and LLM than last year's.

00:29:07 ◼   ► And because it was done in the context of Apple's own platforms, apps, and features.

00:29:14 ◼   ► Oh, I totally agree.

00:29:15 ◼   ► There is more AI stuff in this keynote.

00:29:18 ◼   ► I actually think the Apple intelligence branding has set them back in a way, right?

00:29:24 ◼   ► When, when people think about AI right now, they think about Sam Altman, OpenAI, and Chachi Petit trying to marry Kevin Roos on the front page in the New York Times.

00:29:33 ◼   ► I'm never going to stop making this joke.

00:29:35 ◼   ► And Kevin knows it, and I thank him for letting me do it.

00:29:37 ◼   ► And, like, people are having real relationships with this technology, for good or bad.

00:29:45 ◼   ► I think for mostly bad.

00:29:46 ◼   ► Joanna's writing a book.

00:29:47 ◼   ► We're going to see how it goes.

00:29:50 ◼   ► Like, that is the thing.

00:29:52 ◼   ► Like, you talk to the computer, and the computer talks to you.

00:29:54 ◼   ► That's the thing that everyone thinks is the new user interface paradigm.

00:29:58 ◼   ► They think that will lead to the platform shift.

00:30:00 ◼   ► That's the re-architecture of the very concept of an API.

00:30:03 ◼   ► And, like, all this stuff is down to, oh, we have natural language computers now.

00:30:07 ◼   ► This is the thing that's going to change everything.

00:30:09 ◼   ► It might replace the phone.

00:30:10 ◼   ► Johnny Abb is going to build you a necklace that sees God.

00:30:12 ◼   ► Sure.

00:30:13 ◼   ► Right?

00:30:14 ◼   ► He might.

00:30:17 ◼   ► He might.

00:30:20 ◼   ► And Apple is, like, Apple intelligence is, like, you can take a picture of a sloth and

00:30:24 ◼   ► a light bulb, and, like, you're, you're, the thing.

00:30:31 ◼   ► Is that a feature?

00:30:31 ◼   ► That's a feature.

00:30:32 ◼   ► You missed it?

00:30:32 ◼   ► No, the emoji.

00:30:33 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:30:34 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:30:34 ◼   ► I did not miss that.

00:30:36 ◼   ► You make it look like the sloth is having a great idea.

00:30:38 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:39 ◼   ► Okay, yeah.

00:30:39 ◼   ► No, it's that you are slow to get the joke.

00:30:41 ◼   ► This is what I mean, like, this is not a good way to communicate.

00:30:44 ◼   ► Like, genius sloth or kind of stupid is, like, all in the same picture, man.

00:30:50 ◼   ► So, Apple intelligence, the reason I think they had to announce, like, a Siri, because

00:30:54 ◼   ► that's what people want.

00:30:55 ◼   ► They want to just talk to their phone and have the phone do stuff.

00:30:58 ◼   ► And that was the promise of the original Siri.

00:31:01 ◼   ► That was the promise of Google Assistant.

00:31:02 ◼   ► That was the promise of Dear Sweet Bixby.

00:31:05 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:31:06 ◼   ► And Cortana.

00:31:07 ◼   ► And Cortana.

00:31:08 ◼   ► That is the promise of Gemini and Samsung phones today.

00:31:11 ◼   ► You can be, like, turn off the Bluetooth.

00:31:12 ◼   ► And it's, like, maybe.

00:31:13 ◼   ► And, like, you know?

00:31:15 ◼   ► And, like, all that is the thing.

00:31:19 ◼   ► Like, that's where you've got to point it.

00:31:21 ◼   ► And all of this other stuff that they're branding as Apple intelligence, I think, ultimately does

00:31:25 ◼   ► that stuff a disservice.

00:31:27 ◼   ► Because it makes it small.

00:31:28 ◼   ► And some of it is actually, like, huge.

00:31:31 ◼   ► Right?

00:31:32 ◼   ► The idea that there's an LLM in shortcuts that you can just access is, like, kind of huge.

00:31:37 ◼   ► For this crowd.

00:31:38 ◼   ► The idea that Spotlight is now basically a Raycast clone.

00:31:43 ◼   ► But it can also, which it is.

00:31:46 ◼   ► The Raycast people said to David Pierce today, like, we welcome Apple to validate our idea.

00:31:52 ◼   ► And it's, like, oh, no.

00:31:52 ◼   ► You're in danger.

00:31:55 ◼   ► But, like, that new Spotlight that has some natural language capabilities is kind of cool.

00:32:05 ◼   ► It's, like, that is the future of a whole interaction paradigm.

00:32:08 ◼   ► And I just think Apple intelligence makes the things that are easy or the things that Apple's capable of doing

00:32:14 ◼   ► seem so small compared to the thing that it can't.

00:32:16 ◼   ► And that branding, I think, is going to have to change.

00:32:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:32:18 ◼   ► I'm going to pivot off that because you were mentioning the time, right?

00:32:22 ◼   ► And, actually, Craig specifically responded to that.

00:32:25 ◼   ► And I'm sure it's in part because of some of what you wrote.

00:32:27 ◼   ► But he said today, back with last year's keynote, we spent 40 minutes on Apple intelligence

00:32:33 ◼   ► and the 100-minute show.

00:32:35 ◼   ► Siri was building on Apple intelligence.

00:32:36 ◼   ► We spent, oh, no, Siri's triggering.

00:32:38 ◼   ► We spent eight minutes on Siri there, right?

00:32:43 ◼   ► And four of those minutes we weren't able to ship.

00:32:45 ◼   ► And I tried to push back on this, but I think it's exactly what Neelai's saying, which is,

00:32:50 ◼   ► and you heard it in that question I asked.

00:32:53 ◼   ► For Apple, AI and Siri are linked together since the beginning of time or whenever Siri was announced, right?

00:33:01 ◼   ► And so that is the expectation.

00:33:03 ◼   ► We want a great Siri because we know that Siri is not great now, as you also heard me say in that question.

00:33:09 ◼   ► Yeah, and I think the other thing that's really come into focus for me, and your interview, you really emphasized the point,

00:33:15 ◼   ► is Apple often says, and I think it is the correct philosophy for Apple, that they don't aim to be first, they aim to be best.

00:33:23 ◼   ► And famously, you know, the iPhone didn't, the first iPhone didn't even support 3G, right?

00:33:30 ◼   ► It was on the Edge network, and it was like the sort of people who were deeply informed about the state of the art of smartphones in 2006, 2007,

00:33:41 ◼   ► were like, this is ridiculous, it doesn't even support 3G, and, you know, and they were late to LTE, 4G, whatever you want to call it, right?

00:33:49 ◼   ► They were still shipping 3G phones when, you know, that's just not what Apple does.

00:33:54 ◼   ► But then when they do come out with a 4G phone or the 5G or the, you know, they do it in a battery efficient manner.

00:34:02 ◼   ► That was Apple's big contribution to 5G, not robot surgery.

00:34:06 ◼   ► Right.

00:34:06 ◼   ► Well, and also having that introduction where they had the guy from Verizon come out and say, 5G, 5G, have you heard about 5G, 5G?

00:34:14 ◼   ► That was great, yeah.

00:34:15 ◼   ► But with Siri, or just with talking to your computer and getting intelligent answers, they kind of were first, right?

00:34:24 ◼   ► This is sort of a weird thing, and it is going back 15 years.

00:34:29 ◼   ► But when Siri came out, I think on the iPhone 4S, it was sort of a sensation.

00:34:35 ◼   ► It was, and in reporting that has come out since, you know, Steve Jobs was personally super, super invested.

00:34:44 ◼   ► There was a story, I forget who wrote it recently, where, I forget his last name, but Dag somebody, he was one of the founders of Siri before they got acquired.

00:34:52 ◼   ► And Steve Jobs, you know, had him over for dinner and said, you know, I think we want to buy your company.

00:34:58 ◼   ► He's like, ah, I think we want to stay independent.

00:35:00 ◼   ► And then Steve Jobs called him 37 days in a row.

00:35:03 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:35:04 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:35:05 ◼   ► And it's like, there was, like, very few people on the planet who could call any other person on the planet 36 days in a row.

00:35:14 ◼   ► And then on the 37th, you see the caller ID, and you're like, oh, I'm still going to answer, right?

00:35:18 ◼   ► Steve Jobs is one of them, right?

00:35:20 ◼   ► You know, like, and then you're like, all right, I'll sell this.

00:35:23 ◼   ► I should take the money.

00:35:24 ◼   ► Right.

00:35:24 ◼   ► But it's, you know, it was the last phone that was introduced while Steve Jobs was alive.

00:35:32 ◼   ► It was very near the end.

00:35:33 ◼   ► But he spent, like, the last year of his life apparently very, very keenly thinking, this is the future of our interfaces.

00:35:41 ◼   ► Like, really sort of had zoned in, like, in a way that he turned his attention from the Mac and the iPod to the iPhone.

00:35:47 ◼   ► It was like, this is it.

00:35:49 ◼   ► This touch is it.

00:35:50 ◼   ► And this is the next few years.

00:35:51 ◼   ► And then at the very end, it was like, this is it.

00:35:54 ◼   ► And it was a sensation for consumers.

00:35:56 ◼   ► They were first.

00:35:57 ◼   ► So people do expect that, you know, and people do use Siri all the time.

00:36:02 ◼   ► And that's where I really, and I regret not having time to ask this question, but where you look at the incumbents and the fact that they have to rebuild, right?

00:36:13 ◼   ► They don't have this fresh start.

00:36:14 ◼   ► They don't have, you know, a field in front of them with nothing in it.

00:36:17 ◼   ► They've got to take what has been there.

00:36:19 ◼   ► And that's what you're seeing with Alexa.

00:36:20 ◼   ► That's what you're seeing with Google in some ways with Google Assistant and meshing these.

00:36:24 ◼   ► And, you know, open AIs can just start brand new.

00:36:27 ◼   ► And you can have this assistant that, yeah, sure, doesn't always tell the truth.

00:36:30 ◼   ► And it doesn't control anything in your house.

00:36:32 ◼   ► And it doesn't do all these other things, which is they don't also have the billion-plus user baggage.

00:36:37 ◼   ► Well, they have a lot of users now.

00:36:39 ◼   ► I mean, the problem with the original Siri and, like, you know, the knock on it for the past decade is that, like, it's not very good, right?

00:36:47 ◼   ► And what they mean by it's not very good, and this is true of every statistic I think of every voice assistant we've ever covered, people use them to set timers.

00:36:54 ◼   ► And to play music.

00:36:55 ◼   ► And then everything else is brittle.

00:36:56 ◼   ► Right?

00:36:57 ◼   ► And open the garage.

00:36:58 ◼   ► And Joanne and I, in particular, open and close each other's garages at will.

00:37:01 ◼   ► Shout out to Miros, official sponsor of Milai and Joanne.

00:37:11 ◼   ► And it's that brittleness that I think has kept adoption low.

00:37:14 ◼   ► No one's been able to solve it.

00:37:15 ◼   ► And LLMs might solve it, except that LLMs aren't reliable.

00:37:17 ◼   ► And then you see, oh, it actually doesn't matter if they're reliable because everyone will just talk to ChatGPT all day long.

00:37:23 ◼   ► And that's the thing that has everyone excited.

00:37:25 ◼   ► And I think these big platform companies are realizing, well, if the assistant doesn't get it right, or if the assistant lies to you but an action is taken, that's even more brittle.

00:37:34 ◼   ► Right?

00:37:35 ◼   ► And in some cases, dangerous.

00:37:36 ◼   ► And I think that's the wall that they've hit over and over again.

00:37:39 ◼   ► Yes, Apple said they were going to ship a thing that they didn't ship.

00:37:42 ◼   ► But, like, all the other companies have all promised they're going to ship a thing that they haven't been able to ship.

00:37:46 ◼   ► Right?

00:37:47 ◼   ► And the only difference is that you can play with the broken ones from the other companies.

00:37:51 ◼   ► And that's not Apple.

00:37:53 ◼   ► And I think that's what got them in trouble.

00:37:55 ◼   ► They're like, oh, everyone else is doing, like, this, like, quasi-vapor stuff.

00:37:57 ◼   ► Like, we'll do it, too.

00:37:58 ◼   ► And then they're shipping in public, and Apple isn't.

00:38:02 ◼   ► And that has put them at a disadvantage.

00:38:03 ◼   ► I think it's also, like, the fact that the other Apple intelligence features.

00:38:08 ◼   ► I mean, I think if we could see anyone's hands, like, a show of hands of how many people are actually using Apple intelligence features.

00:38:13 ◼   ► Probably not that many.

00:38:15 ◼   ► Any show of hands out there?

00:38:17 ◼   ► Oh, we got the lights on this time.

00:38:18 ◼   ► All right.

00:38:19 ◼   ► We've got some.

00:38:19 ◼   ► Vastly more than the Alexa people.

00:38:21 ◼   ► I have to say.

00:38:22 ◼   ► We've got some.

00:38:24 ◼   ► But I think that that was a big criticism as well.

00:38:27 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:38:27 ◼   ► Right?

00:38:28 ◼   ► Like, maybe you're not using writing tools or Genmo.

00:38:31 ◼   ► I mean, I'd love to have a deep focus group with these people about if you're using Genmoji every day.

00:38:37 ◼   ► But, you know, I think that was also the criticism.

00:38:40 ◼   ► Right.

00:38:41 ◼   ► And Image Playground is another perfect example.

00:38:44 ◼   ► I mean, and you guys are in this.

00:38:45 ◼   ► You know, we do the same thing.

00:38:46 ◼   ► And throughout the last 12 months, when they'd be introducing new products, maybe it's the MacBook Air or the MacBook Pros or it's new iPads came out.

00:38:56 ◼   ► And there's always a briefing and there's a prepared demo.

00:39:01 ◼   ► Look what you can do.

00:39:01 ◼   ► And every single one of them for every product had some part where it's like, and now, you know, I'm making an invitation for my daughter's 12th birthday party.

00:39:10 ◼   ► Why don't I go to Image Playground and make a picture of her doing something?

00:39:14 ◼   ► And it's like, I don't know anybody in the real world who used Image Playground to do anything.

00:39:19 ◼   ► And it's just not – if you were going to use AI to generate a picture like that, Image Playground over the last 12 months was not only not best of breed, it really wasn't even competitive.

00:39:34 ◼   ► Yeah, but, you know, there are tens of millions of people doing that in ChatGPT.

00:39:37 ◼   ► Right.

00:39:37 ◼   ► Right, and that's the – I think that's just the problem is OpenAI is just able to fail in a very different way, right, because they're perceived as new.

00:39:46 ◼   ► But also, like, they're releasing new features in public constantly.

00:39:50 ◼   ► Right.

00:39:51 ◼   ► Right, they're like, here's another thing they can do now.

00:39:53 ◼   ► And whether or not that thing is good, like, they're just moving forward in a way that doesn't require their product to be complete.

00:40:00 ◼   ► And I – you know, and just to stick with it, with Image Playground, one of the – the thing that really stuck out to me yesterday in the keynote was that they said, like, the big new change for Image Playground this year is that one of the options is, like, you know, you could do, like, Pixar style, but they have a new name for it, you know, illustration style.

00:40:19 ◼   ► And then there's, like, just have ChatGPT do it.

00:40:22 ◼   ► And that's what they demoed.

00:40:25 ◼   ► And so you could have, like, an oil painting of, you know, one of your friends.

00:40:29 ◼   ► And it looks really like an oil painting, and it's really good.

00:40:31 ◼   ► And I saw some other demos over the last two days in briefings, and the pictures you get when you choose the ChatGPT image going through Image Playground are much higher quality.

00:40:41 ◼   ► And it's like, yeah, Apple, you don't have to do it all, you know?

00:40:45 ◼   ► If there's something better out there, just use the better thing.

00:40:48 ◼   ► And that was missing last year.

00:40:51 ◼   ► There was sort of a very, very decided, we can do this all ourselves, like, a not invented here thing that didn't make sense, and that now it seems like they're pretending they never did.

00:41:05 ◼   ► Well, I think, like, also last year, no one knew what people were going to use any of this stuff for, and there's at least a year of that.

00:41:14 ◼   ► You know, I'll just compare it to Google I.O., which was a couple weeks ago.

00:41:17 ◼   ► I was out here for that.

00:41:18 ◼   ► Google announced 50 million AI features.

00:41:20 ◼   ► And they have a lot of the same advantages as Apple.

00:41:23 ◼   ► In particular, I think one of the ways you can think about who will win the personal assistant race is who has your email.

00:41:31 ◼   ► Because your email is becoming this, like, place for incoming signal about the world in a really interesting place.

00:41:37 ◼   ► Right?

00:41:38 ◼   ► The AI is like, I figured out what time you're going to land, and I've booked you a car, and I made here's the directions to your hotel, whatever else it's going to do.

00:41:44 ◼   ► All of that is information that arrives in your email inbox in a way that makes your email inbox just a weird messaging center for a robot.

00:41:52 ◼   ► Weird.

00:41:53 ◼   ► I don't know how this is going to play out.

00:41:55 ◼   ► Google has that, too.

00:41:57 ◼   ► Like, a lot of what Google announced was, like, oh, we can read your fucking Gmail.

00:42:00 ◼   ► And they can.

00:42:03 ◼   ► They're really good at it, it turns out.

00:42:06 ◼   ► And they have a lot of people's Gmail, and they also have Google Maps.

00:42:09 ◼   ► And they have all these other web services, and they can just, like, build the thing in the cloud.

00:42:12 ◼   ► And they're like, here it is, we just, like, connected the dots.

00:42:14 ◼   ► And, like, I saw people at I.O. being like, oh, this is everything Apple announced at Apple Intelligence last year,

00:42:21 ◼   ► and Google's going to actually ship it because they can just connect the dots in the cloud and, like, give it to everyone.

00:42:25 ◼   ► Google has to actually ship it.

00:42:27 ◼   ► They seem very confident that they will.

00:42:29 ◼   ► But that is the platform shift, right?

00:42:31 ◼   ► The danger for Apple a long time ago was the iPhone become a vessel for Google services, and they fought back against that in various ways.

00:42:37 ◼   ► I think the danger for them now is, well, there's another provider that has a lot of people's emails.

00:42:42 ◼   ► And that personal data store is really, really important as we think about where the information about your world comes and goes.

00:42:49 ◼   ► Apple has other advantages, right?

00:42:51 ◼   ► They've got email, they've got iMessage, they've got all this other stuff.

00:42:53 ◼   ► But you can just see, like, oh, the other company is ahead because they've built their entire platform in the cloud,

00:42:57 ◼   ► and they can just rev it really fast.

00:43:02 ◼   ► I do think that the way they broke it down this year, by not having, here's Apple Intelligence, here's 40 minutes of features,

00:43:10 ◼   ► and instead sprinkling the features throughout the rest of the keynote.

00:43:14 ◼   ► There is a lot of good stuff.

00:43:16 ◼   ► Some of the stuff that, you know, I think I missed some stuff on this card, but the call screening and hold assist stuff in the phone.

00:43:24 ◼   ► Now, that is catch up.

00:43:25 ◼   ► I love that.

00:43:26 ◼   ► That is catch up to Google, like the call screening.

00:43:28 ◼   ► But I was not expecting that from Apple this year, I have to say, even though I really think it's a cool feature.

00:43:36 ◼   ► Have you used it?

00:43:37 ◼   ► I didn't use it.

00:43:38 ◼   ► Not with the Apple stuff, but like the...

00:43:39 ◼   ► Oh, I've used the Google versions.

00:43:41 ◼   ► Yeah, I was very excited to see that.

00:43:42 ◼   ► I was also excited, the live translation.

00:43:44 ◼   ► I mean, those are things we also have had across other platforms, Google, Microsoft.

00:43:48 ◼   ► But, yeah, I'm very excited about calls.

00:43:51 ◼   ► I love making phone calls.

00:43:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:43:56 ◼   ► This is what I mean, by the way.

00:43:57 ◼   ► That stuff seems small in comparison to the thing that they didn't ship.

00:44:00 ◼   ► Right.

00:44:01 ◼   ► But those things are genuinely useful quality of life features.

00:44:03 ◼   ► Right.

00:44:03 ◼   ► They rely on a whole bunch of ML algorithms and AI and all this other stuff that you need.

00:44:07 ◼   ► Right.

00:44:07 ◼   ► And I think that's always been Apple's bread and butter is like, oh, you know, just lots and lots of really little nice touches everywhere.

00:44:17 ◼   ► And it's like you can't pinpoint one of them and say, well, this is a big colossal changes the industry feature.

00:44:22 ◼   ► But it's like when you have them all across the platform, that's what makes using Apple stuff using Apple stuff.

00:44:28 ◼   ► I think the visual intelligence stuff, too, was huge, even though that is tapping into various other apps and mostly ChatGPT or Google.

00:44:36 ◼   ► I think that was a great example, too, of Apple controls the camera, right?

00:44:40 ◼   ► This is the camera you use.

00:44:42 ◼   ► And so they're going to provide that platform right there for you.

00:44:45 ◼   ► And I find myself using either ChatGPT or Google Lens all the time.

00:44:50 ◼   ► And so, I mean, they've had some of this in visual intelligence, but bringing that more forward, I think, was another big Apple intelligence feature that wasn't labeled as such.

00:45:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:45:00 ◼   ► And that's one of the next items on my list here is the addition of screenshots to visual intelligence this year, which I think is a great feature.

00:45:10 ◼   ► It is, if you're old enough, you know, I remember, it wasn't that long ago where it seemed like only the nerds really knew how to take screenshots and knew what screenshots were.

00:45:22 ◼   ► No matter what platform you're talking about, it's like normal people, I don't know, it's like, why would I take a, why would I snap a frame from my screen?

00:45:31 ◼   ► Why would I do that?

00:45:32 ◼   ► Whereas nerds, we've always been doing it for a zillion reasons.

00:45:36 ◼   ► But now it's like, I don't know anybody who doesn't know how to take a screenshot on their phone because people take screenshots on their phone.

00:45:41 ◼   ► Also because if you squeeze the phone too tightly, it just happens.

00:45:43 ◼   ► But it is sort of the, it's like the escape hatch for sharing, right?

00:45:51 ◼   ► Where it's like, you don't have to learn the path to share, you know, cause some apps just use the system share sheet, but a lot of apps, especially like meta apps and X, you know, the, want you to use their share thing.

00:46:08 ◼   ► And then in their share thing is a share button that then brings up the system share.

00:46:13 ◼   ► People just take a screenshot and then they share because it's here.

00:46:17 ◼   ► This is on my screen.

00:46:18 ◼   ► I want to send it to Neelai and Joanna screenshot text, Neelai and Joanna.

00:46:24 ◼   ► Look at this, you know.

00:46:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:46:26 ◼   ► I think it's like fascinating that Apple is training a bunch of people already to screenshot, to extract text.

00:46:33 ◼   ► Right.

00:46:33 ◼   ► I do that.

00:46:35 ◼   ► I do that all the time.

00:46:36 ◼   ► A TikTok interaction that I could write a PhD thesis about that I saw recently was like one of those like, here's a product I like.

00:46:42 ◼   ► And someone was like, where did you buy it?

00:46:44 ◼   ► And they pasted an Amazon link.

00:46:45 ◼   ► And someone was like, I can't click that.

00:46:47 ◼   ► And the reply was, take a screenshot and select the text and paste it.

00:46:50 ◼   ► This is bad.

00:46:53 ◼   ► Make the links work, TikTok.

00:46:56 ◼   ► But like they're training a lot of people to do that.

00:47:00 ◼   ► And that means when they add more capabilities to the screenshot feature, more people will use them.

00:47:04 ◼   ► And this is a very rich environment.

00:47:06 ◼   ► In fairness, I will say that Google has had variations on this feature for so long that I think Dieter wrote the first story about it for us in hieroglyphics.

00:47:15 ◼   ► Like, straightforwardly, this is a hundred-year-old feature on the Android side.

00:47:18 ◼   ► It has had 5,000 different names and has convinced approximately zero people to switch from the iPhone to Android over the years.

00:47:25 ◼   ► But they're pulling from like a rich body of like use cases and attempts to make this really good that I think will let them just like make it obvious to people or intuitive to people in a very Apple way.

00:47:37 ◼   ► But they're also with visual intelligence.

00:47:39 ◼   ► The screenshots is a big deal, but they're also allowing other apps to tap into that, right?

00:47:43 ◼   ► That's where I was talking about the camera.

00:47:44 ◼   ► So if you snap a photo, I think the one example is Etsy, maybe?

00:47:49 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:47:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:47:50 ◼   ► Okay.

00:47:50 ◼   ► Like any no search demo can end without a transaction.

00:47:54 ◼   ► It's like the iron law of commerce on the internet.

00:47:57 ◼   ► Like, what do you want to search for?

00:47:58 ◼   ► Shit to buy.

00:47:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:47:59 ◼   ► And like, nothing else.

00:48:00 ◼   ► Right.

00:48:01 ◼   ► 30% straight to my pockets.

00:48:03 ◼   ► Right.

00:48:03 ◼   ► But like, I buy crap for my kids all the time that way.

00:48:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:48:08 ◼   ► I love that toy.

00:48:09 ◼   ► In my role as Greg Joswiak, I thank you for your 30%.

00:48:11 ◼   ► But one of the other little interesting things, and I think it is a, seems subtle, but to me is not subtle, but is, ah, yeah, we should just let them do it.

00:48:25 ◼   ► This is a serious course correction over 12 months is, um, when you do the screenshot for visual intelligence at the bottom, in the middle is where, if it looks like if you're screenshotting, ah, like a Instagram post with a concert and a date and a time, there'll be like, add to calendar in the middle.

00:48:45 ◼   ► But over on the bottom left, there's always a button that says ask, and ask is like where you get to type a natural language query.

00:48:53 ◼   ► The ask button for screenshots always goes to chat GPT.

00:48:58 ◼   ► And so it's your choice as the user, whether you want to be signed into an account or not.

00:49:05 ◼   ► And if you're not, then you're anonymous and Apple proxies your query through a redirect.

00:49:10 ◼   ► So they don't even know your IP address.

00:49:13 ◼   ► Apple vouches that it's completely private.

00:49:15 ◼   ► And if you listen to the story behind it, it sure sounds totally private to me.

00:49:19 ◼   ► And if you want to be signed in and maybe you pay 20 bucks a month for chat GPT, it'll use your account.

00:49:25 ◼   ► You'll get the extra tokens or the better model that you have access to, and it'll be in your chat GPT app's history.

00:49:32 ◼   ► But there, there's none of that.

00:49:35 ◼   ► Well, we'll take a look at the screen and figure out if we could do it with one of our local models,

00:49:40 ◼   ► or maybe we'll send it to our private cloud compute.

00:49:43 ◼   ► And if it seems really complex, then we'll send it to chat GPT.

00:49:47 ◼   ► It's just, no, it just goes to chat GPT.

00:49:50 ◼   ► This is something chat GPT nails.

00:49:52 ◼   ► And why are we even trying?

00:49:55 ◼   ► We're not going to beat them.

00:49:56 ◼   ► So why don't we just send them all to chat GPT?

00:49:58 ◼   ► And they didn't have that kind of story last year.

00:50:00 ◼   ► Everything was always, well, you know, we don't want to say because we're going to adjust the weights of it, you know,

00:50:06 ◼   ► but maybe some of it will be local and some of it we'll do to our private cloud compute and complex stuff will go to chat GPT.

00:50:12 ◼   ► No, that ask button is just chat GPT.

00:50:15 ◼   ► Simple.

00:50:15 ◼   ► And that way, even as a user, you just know what you're going to get.

00:50:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:50:19 ◼   ► So, you know, one of the, that stuff is really hard.

00:50:22 ◼   ► You know, Google's good at it, too.

00:50:23 ◼   ► They've had visual search forever.

00:50:24 ◼   ► Last year they announced, and they basically all but confirmed,

00:50:28 ◼   ► that, like, Gemini would be right there as a model alongside chat GPT.

00:50:33 ◼   ► It hasn't happened yet.

00:50:34 ◼   ► They seem to be leaning more and more into the relationship with OpenAI, which famously has hired Johnny Ive to compete with them.

00:50:42 ◼   ► And there's just, like, some swirl of drama there that I think they prefer talking about not shipping Siri than any of that.

00:50:49 ◼   ► They're like, just don't ask us about that.

00:50:52 ◼   ► Like, yeah, we fucked it up real bad.

00:50:54 ◼   ► Don't ask us about that.

00:50:55 ◼   ► And I, that's going to be a weird one.

00:50:58 ◼   ► Like, I do think they need to add more models to the mix to get away from this dependency.

00:51:03 ◼   ► Yeah, I am a little surprised that here we are 12 months later and there is no Gemini because I thought it was a big tell last year where Federighi, like, right on day one, you know, was saying in interviews, like, even before my show, you know, was saying in interviews that, you know, it's an open architecture.

00:51:21 ◼   ► We're talking to other people.

00:51:23 ◼   ► We could have other partners in the future.

00:51:25 ◼   ► And name drop Gemini in particular, which is a very unusual move for Apple.

00:51:30 ◼   ► Like, and you know it wasn't an accident.

00:51:32 ◼   ► And Mark Gurman and somebody else at Bloomberg recently in their sort of what went wrong with Siri piece reported that John Gianandrea wanted to go with Gemini all along and thought, I guess for the reason that he thought OpenAI, you know, maybe wasn't here for the long haul or something.

00:51:53 ◼   ► But, you know, that there were voices in the company that were like, oh, no, if we're only going to do one, we should partner with Google.

00:51:58 ◼   ► So I'm very surprised 12 months later, it's still just ChatGPT.

00:52:02 ◼   ► But they're still talking about the fact that it is like they ask button in the few, you know, six months from now.

00:52:08 ◼   ► Maybe there will be two options, you know.

00:52:11 ◼   ► Really, when I think of Apple design, I think of those model pickers.

00:52:14 ◼   ► And you just put those all through the operating system.

00:52:17 ◼   ► Let's see.

00:52:23 ◼   ► Oh, Workout Buddy.

00:52:24 ◼   ► I'm into Workout Buddy.

00:52:27 ◼   ► Yeah?

00:52:27 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:52:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:52:28 ◼   ► Let's hear it for Workout Buddy.

00:52:30 ◼   ► Now, see, I'm really playing the crack role.

00:52:32 ◼   ► It's just that it's only one side of the room, I have to say.

00:52:35 ◼   ► Those are the workout people.

00:52:36 ◼   ► There's like a bunch of Peloton instructors over here.

00:52:39 ◼   ► They're very fit.

00:52:40 ◼   ► We can't see you at all.

00:52:41 ◼   ► I think this is a great example of where they can go.

00:52:45 ◼   ► And I wanted to ask about this today, too.

00:52:48 ◼   ► This is a whole recap of things I didn't ask.

00:52:50 ◼   ► But I think that intersection of Apple has this personal health and fitness data, combined with some sort of assistant, is a huge opportunity for them.

00:53:04 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:53:04 ◼   ► It's not an assistant.

00:53:05 ◼   ► This is like the...

00:53:07 ◼   ► It's a buddy.

00:53:08 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:53:12 ◼   ► Look, work is a family, Joanna.

00:53:16 ◼   ► You can't talk to it.

00:53:20 ◼   ► Yeah, you can't talk to it, but we will one day.

00:53:22 ◼   ► Yes, as Craig Federini, one day you will be able to talk to it.

00:53:26 ◼   ► No.

00:53:26 ◼   ► But I think it's a step in that direction.

00:53:29 ◼   ► What I don't like, and did you see it in one of the briefings?

00:53:32 ◼   ► It's very nice.

00:53:35 ◼   ► And if you don't...

00:53:38 ◼   ► It won't tell you you haven't done as well as your last time.

00:53:43 ◼   ► It's so Apple.

00:53:44 ◼   ► It's like, we want to be nice.

00:53:45 ◼   ► We want to be gentle with this.

00:53:46 ◼   ► It's like, no, you did not fucking run as fast as you did yesterday.

00:53:50 ◼   ► Speed it up.

00:53:52 ◼   ► They said in my briefing that they said it as a selling point that it's always upbeat and

00:54:00 ◼   ► it's always cheerful.

00:54:00 ◼   ► That is not upbeat for me.

00:54:01 ◼   ► And always encouraging.

00:54:02 ◼   ► And I said, well, I raised my hand and, you know, it was like four or five of us.

00:54:06 ◼   ► And I said, well, that's not a feature for me.

00:54:09 ◼   ► I would rather have like, and they're like a drill sergeant.

00:54:12 ◼   ► I'm like, no, not a drill sergeant.

00:54:13 ◼   ► And I'm thinking like 1980s gym teacher, you know?

00:54:17 ◼   ► I think Workout Buddy cuts the power to the PS5 and is like, get down there.

00:54:22 ◼   ► Get to work.

00:54:23 ◼   ► Like, I'm thinking back to like when I played high school basketball and the way my coach,

00:54:27 ◼   ► you know, like beginning of the season when we were running wind sprints to get into shape.

00:54:31 ◼   ► It wasn't like, hey, John, come on.

00:54:35 ◼   ► You know?

00:54:36 ◼   ► You want AI John Gruden just screaming at you.

00:54:39 ◼   ► Gruber, come on.

00:54:40 ◼   ► That's what got me running, you know?

00:54:45 ◼   ► I just, like, this one to me is another one where it's basically just notifications, right?

00:54:50 ◼   ► It's like keeping a timer about your pace and then telling you you did a good job.

00:54:54 ◼   ► And there's a text-to-speech model that makes that happen.

00:54:56 ◼   ► Sure.

00:54:57 ◼   ► It's looking at data from your previous run or whatever Workout, but previous runs.

00:55:03 ◼   ► This is a spreadsheet that can talk.

00:55:04 ◼   ► Okay.

00:55:05 ◼   ► That's a good first step.

00:55:07 ◼   ► Maybe.

00:55:09 ◼   ► I think people think that they can talk to the buddy and be like, am I on pace?

00:55:14 ◼   ► And they might answer the question.

00:55:15 ◼   ► And instead, it just, like, pops up in a chipper voice to be like, you're awesome.

00:55:19 ◼   ► Right?

00:55:20 ◼   ► It's like, all right.

00:55:22 ◼   ► But I think I'm on Joanna's side.

00:55:24 ◼   ► But where?

00:55:26 ◼   ► I think there's just, I mean, in reporting's book, I think there's so much potential for this personalized health data.

00:55:32 ◼   ► And it's been the promise of the Apple Watch for so long.

00:55:35 ◼   ► I wear this thing.

00:55:36 ◼   ► It knows so much about me.

00:55:38 ◼   ► It's never given me that proactive information.

00:55:41 ◼   ► And maybe combined with their models, someone else's models, that has the potential in the future.

00:55:46 ◼   ► Well, I mean, let me ask you point blank.

00:55:49 ◼   ► Do you think they should have shipped it this year or not?

00:55:51 ◼   ► I think that a one-way workout buddy that you can't talk to interactively but gives you live, like, hey, you just, you know, you just crossed the 5K barrier, you know, for the sixth time this week.

00:56:04 ◼   ► You know, as you cross the 5K barrier.

00:56:08 ◼   ► I think that's something.

00:56:09 ◼   ► I know people are falling in love with their laptops, right?

00:56:11 ◼   ► Like, this is, we've crossed the line.

00:56:14 ◼   ► Like, people have girlfriends that are robots now.

00:56:18 ◼   ► If you say something's a buddy, I think the expectation for consumers is you can talk to it and it can talk to you.

00:56:24 ◼   ► Like, there are entire companies that just can do this.

00:56:27 ◼   ► And I, that's the, I just think that for, especially for the younger consumer that talks to chat GPT all day long, like, that's the expectation.

00:56:37 ◼   ► So, like, whether or not they should have shipped it or whether it's useful, I think you call it a buddy or you, like, have a button in the app that's, like, start your buddy.

00:56:43 ◼   ► I think the expectation is, like, a two-way street, not just, like, a chipper spreadsheet.

00:56:50 ◼   ► But, like, maybe, like, all the other fitness apps are doing it, right?

00:56:53 ◼   ► The Runkeepers have done something like this for a long time.

00:56:55 ◼   ► But, like, I just, you all know that people think they're in love with their phones.

00:56:59 ◼   ► Like, they, they're like, my friend is here and I love it.

00:57:02 ◼   ► I'm married to it.

00:57:03 ◼   ► Gary Vaynerchuk is out there being like, we're going to marry the robots.

00:57:05 ◼   ► Like, it's over.

00:57:07 ◼   ► Like, put your mind in the right spot.

00:57:10 ◼   ► Infinite TikTok clips of him saying this.

00:57:14 ◼   ► He knows what that algorithm wants.

00:57:15 ◼   ► But the last thing I want to talk about with AI is the developer-oriented news.

00:57:20 ◼   ► And I think there's two parts that I want to talk about.

00:57:24 ◼   ► The one is that they have these APIs to the local foundation models so that apps can run things locally.

00:57:32 ◼   ► This is what I've been waiting for.

00:57:34 ◼   ► I wanted to hear the reaction.

00:57:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:57:35 ◼   ► And soon they will be in love with your apps as well.

00:57:38 ◼   ► Right.

00:57:38 ◼   ► This is a customer support nightmare.

00:57:41 ◼   ► Right.

00:57:42 ◼   ► This, you know, these are small models.

00:57:44 ◼   ► They run locally.

00:57:45 ◼   ► They are not, you are not going to be able to make a competitor to chat GPT in an app that uses this.

00:57:52 ◼   ► But, like, for little targeted things, I think there are going to be, like, a thousand different little things that little, that each app can do.

00:58:02 ◼   ► And from what I've been able to glean in, like, a developer-oriented briefing today, you know, it's, it really integrates very well with Swift where you can sort of, like, do things like, and I know this is a big deal, because it's one of those things that blew my mind away.

00:58:19 ◼   ► It's one of those things like, you know, it's one of those things like, you know, it's one of those things like that.

00:58:37 ◼   ► And they'll hallucinate where the parentheses go and some of the curly brackets.

00:58:41 ◼   ► And so you don't, you have to, like, validate it before you actually trust it.

00:58:46 ◼   ► And the APIs for this are, like, no, no, if you set up a struct in Swift and you say, this is what I want it to be, it's guaranteed to give it to you in that format.

00:58:56 ◼   ► Now, maybe you won't like the answer intelligence-wise, but you won't have to, like, validate the data.

00:59:00 ◼   ► Developers are super excited about this.

00:59:02 ◼   ► But it almost feels like one of those things that's, like, last year's announcement seemed a year ahead of time, right?

00:59:12 ◼   ► Like, why were they announcing any of this?

00:59:14 ◼   ► Why were they announcing Apple Intelligence when they didn't have a story for developers to put in their own apps?

00:59:20 ◼   ► Now they have that story, at least to, and it sounds like really, I mean, I've been very interested.

00:59:26 ◼   ► about what people will build with this.

00:59:27 ◼   ► I think it's hard for us to imagine yet, and I think for, especially around, you know, when you ask Apple what the benefit of this is to developers, there's two.

00:59:37 ◼   ► One, it's free, and two, it's local, and there's more privacy, right?

00:59:42 ◼   ► And low latency.

00:59:43 ◼   ► And low latency.

00:59:44 ◼   ► And so are those benefits better than going out to the cloud for whatever the task is?

00:59:55 ◼   ► And so I'm just very interested in what people will build with this.

00:59:58 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:59:59 ◼   ► I mean, I've heard a lot of excitement about it.

01:00:01 ◼   ► The latency piece is really interesting.

01:00:03 ◼   ► Like, fast but worse is like a, there's some value to that, right?

01:00:09 ◼   ► But not all the value.

01:00:11 ◼   ► So you get the feeling people will have a hybrid approach.

01:00:14 ◼   ► And then the, you know, the cloud services, they're getting cheaper over time.

01:00:18 ◼   ► And a developer last night, he was like, I'm paying 200 bucks a month for all of my Gemini uses.

01:00:21 ◼   ► Like, why do we need this?

01:00:22 ◼   ► Like, so I think there's going to be some push and pull there.

01:00:25 ◼   ► But certainly it will push the cost of cloud compute down in a way that it's already actually

01:00:29 ◼   ► going down.

01:00:30 ◼   ► And I actually think that in this case, the privacy thing, if developers do it right and

01:00:35 ◼   ► market that right and explain it right, is a huge benefit.

01:00:38 ◼   ► I will tell my story.

01:00:40 ◼   ► Neil, I know it's about this.

01:00:40 ◼   ► But I wore this recording device, this AI recording device a few months ago.

01:00:45 ◼   ► I should really start wearing it again.

01:00:47 ◼   ► And it recorded everything in my life.

01:00:49 ◼   ► It was a, it's called the B.

01:00:51 ◼   ► Limitless makes one, two, but the B.

01:00:53 ◼   ► And it recorded everything 24-7.

01:00:56 ◼   ► And the way it would work, it was Bluetooth runs to the iPhone and then they use a cloud

01:01:01 ◼   ► model.

01:01:01 ◼   ► And I was freaked out about the fact that this is a cloud model.

01:01:04 ◼   ► That I have all of my life's recordings, everything going to the cloud of this company.

01:01:09 ◼   ► And I think that this is a situation where they could, if they had this type of capability

01:01:14 ◼   ► from Apple and access to these foundation models, I would have been like, okay, I'll keep wearing

01:01:19 ◼   ► that bracelet.

01:01:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:01:21 ◼   ► It makes a big difference.

01:01:22 ◼   ► But not around me.

01:01:23 ◼   ► No.

01:01:24 ◼   ► Not around my family.

01:01:25 ◼   ► No one really wanted me.

01:01:26 ◼   ► I, yeah, no one wanted me to wear the bracelet.

01:01:29 ◼   ► The other thing that I thought was super impressive, it really feels like they have a really good

01:01:37 ◼   ► story for Xcode and developer tools.

01:01:41 ◼   ► And like a chatbot that you can open on the left and do the sort of things you would command

01:01:47 ◼   ► tab to a chatbot app, but it's right there in Xcode.

01:01:50 ◼   ► But with all of the knowledge of your Xcode project, because it's right there in your project

01:01:56 ◼   ► window.

01:01:57 ◼   ► And so it knows, you don't have to tell it, here's my project, or here's the path to it.

01:02:01 ◼   ► It just knows it.

01:02:02 ◼   ► Really, really, you know, they're not calling it Swift Assist.

01:02:09 ◼   ► The whole Swift Assist thing they announced last year.

01:02:12 ◼   ► And again, it just felt like so much of last year's announcements were, we have to say something

01:02:18 ◼   ► big about AI right now, this year in 2024, ready or not.

01:02:24 ◼   ► And it feels like what they're talking about now, developer tool-wise, is like, oh yeah,

01:02:29 ◼   ► we spent a whole nother year and figured out what was working and what wasn't.

01:02:33 ◼   ► And one thing that we, that Apple seemed to realize is we should just farm out to chat GPT.

01:02:40 ◼   ► And in Xcode's case, they already have it.

01:02:43 ◼   ► I think you have to be running macOS Tahoe and Xcode 26.

01:02:47 ◼   ► But they already have it where you can use your own developer key and use another one, not

01:02:53 ◼   ► chat GPT.

01:02:54 ◼   ► You can, you know, they have integration with Claude.

01:02:56 ◼   ► And that's what people expect, right?

01:03:00 ◼   ► They expect like, you know, with every two months, somebody leaps ahead of the other in terms of

01:03:05 ◼   ► what is the best coding agent and, or you just hear that, oh, you know, the new Claude

01:03:10 ◼   ► 4 is so much better at this.

01:03:13 ◼   ► And you're a developer and you're like, well, I'll try that.

01:03:15 ◼   ► Xcode is set up for that sort of race.

01:03:18 ◼   ► Like this Xcode that just shipped is set up for like, oh, two months from now, there's going

01:03:23 ◼   ► to be a new King of the Hill.

01:03:24 ◼   ► And two months after that, it's going to be a different one.

01:03:27 ◼   ► It's set up for the fast, incredibly fast world of this.

01:03:31 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:03:31 ◼   ► Do people here, are you using Xcode and Cursor or Copilot or any other ones?

01:03:36 ◼   ► Is there a mix?

01:03:36 ◼   ► You're right.

01:03:37 ◼   ► There's one boo.

01:03:40 ◼   ► I think it was a woo.

01:03:42 ◼   ► Somebody from Xcode.

01:03:43 ◼   ► Is that a woo or a boo?

01:03:44 ◼   ► I think it was a woo.

01:03:45 ◼   ► Confusing, but we're going to go with it.

01:03:48 ◼   ► You know, the race isn't just in the models.

01:03:50 ◼   ► That's kind of why I asked, right?

01:03:51 ◼   ► The models are leapfrogging each other, but they're kind of hitting a steady state.

01:03:54 ◼   ► The incremental gains of the individual models are whatever.

01:03:58 ◼   ► Especially, I think, in the coding domain where Claude is very good at it.

01:04:02 ◼   ► But I know big companies that have shifted from Copilot to Cursor, and the engineers are

01:04:09 ◼   ► happier at the big companies.

01:04:10 ◼   ► And this was a big shift, right?

01:04:11 ◼   ► Like a cost model shift for a company that already has a big Microsoft contract or whatever.

01:04:15 ◼   ► I think this is where Apple can plug in the new models, but Cursor has invented a new way

01:04:21 ◼   ► of doing things.

01:04:21 ◼   ► And that's what they're going to have to compete with.

01:04:23 ◼   ► And I'm sort of interested to see how that race plays out, because this is the most mature

01:04:27 ◼   ► AI field so far.

01:04:29 ◼   ► Right.

01:04:29 ◼   ► And it kind of makes sense.

01:04:30 ◼   ► It's a bunch of engineers being like, what can I do engineer stuff with?

01:04:32 ◼   ► And it's a closed loop, you know, in that way.

01:04:35 ◼   ► And that's kind of how all tech works in the beginning.

01:04:38 ◼   ► But it's interesting that Cursor, you know, they just raise a bunch of money.

01:04:42 ◼   ► Like, they're the leader.

01:04:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:04:44 ◼   ► And I don't know if Apple perceives them as the leader yet.

01:04:46 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know either.

01:04:48 ◼   ► And I do think it's a serious threat.

01:04:50 ◼   ► And I know, I mean, this is WWDC.

01:04:53 ◼   ► And it used to be so really like the people who came and everybody who even knew the letters,

01:04:58 ◼   ► WWDC really were developers.

01:05:00 ◼   ► And now it really is Apple's sort of, here's our software plans for the next year.

01:05:08 ◼   ► And it is, you know, the keynote itself is very, very consumer oriented.

01:05:12 ◼   ► And they even like sort of made an exception, you know, like, we'll even talk a little bit

01:05:16 ◼   ► about developer tools in the keynote.

01:05:18 ◼   ► But, you know, mostly, you know, go get lunch and come back for the State of the Union, you

01:05:23 ◼   ► know, where they effectively have a second keynote, which really is for developers.

01:05:29 ◼   ► But I think in this case, it is important because part of Apple's developer story wasn't just

01:05:37 ◼   ► we have these cool platforms that have lots of users.

01:05:40 ◼   ► It was, this is a, you're going to love writing software for our platform, right?

01:05:46 ◼   ► That was what I heard over and over again from all of my developer friends when they fell

01:05:51 ◼   ► in love with Coco in the early 2000s.

01:05:54 ◼   ► Even when like, you know, it was like 50-50 split between the people still using classic

01:06:00 ◼   ► Mac and Mac OS X, my developer friends were like, I can't wait for everybody to get on Mac

01:06:05 ◼   ► OS X because Coco is the future.

01:06:09 ◼   ► And this is the, I don't want to go back to writing software the other way.

01:06:12 ◼   ► This is so great.

01:06:14 ◼   ► And then it was all there poised when the iPhone came and boom, there was this whole market of

01:06:23 ◼   ► developers who already loved writing Mac apps, who already knew how to write iPhone apps

01:06:28 ◼   ► and they loved doing it.

01:06:29 ◼   ► They're like, this is amazing.

01:06:30 ◼   ► I just wrote an app and it's on my phone.

01:06:32 ◼   ► That sort of enthusiasm, like I'm having more fun programming than I've had in a while.

01:06:39 ◼   ► I only hear that now from people using Cursor and Replit and other tools like that.

01:06:44 ◼   ► And it sounds weird if you're one of the, you know, two billion people out there who just

01:06:50 ◼   ► uses an iPhone and an iPad or something like that.

01:06:53 ◼   ► But it really matters if developers really want to be using the tools and writing those

01:06:58 ◼   ► platforms, writing for your platform.

01:07:00 ◼   ► I'm going to sound like a total AI booster.

01:07:02 ◼   ► So some caveats.

01:07:03 ◼   ► One, I don't know if this industry is built on technology that will last, right?

01:07:07 ◼   ► Like LM's have some sort of finishing point and I don't know where it is.

01:07:10 ◼   ► I think there's like a fatal copyright flaw in all this.

01:07:13 ◼   ► I'm only laying this out.

01:07:14 ◼   ► Like it might just kill the whole industry.

01:07:15 ◼   ► Who knows?

01:07:16 ◼   ► I'm only saying this because I'm going to sound like a just naked AI booster for one

01:07:20 ◼   ► second.

01:07:20 ◼   ► So just like that's the copy.

01:07:21 ◼   ► If you look at the rest of the industry, if you look at Google IO, Sundar Pichai told me

01:07:26 ◼   ► on Decoder, the future of web results are we're going to just like one shot code custom web

01:07:31 ◼   ► apps for you that are the search results page, right?

01:07:34 ◼   ► We're going to, you're going to ask about some Yankee stats and we're going to build you a

01:07:37 ◼   ► data viz on the fly real time using a vibe coding tool like in the backend that the robot

01:07:42 ◼   ► we'll use.

01:07:43 ◼   ► We will enable millions of more people to divide code and write one shot apps and deploy

01:07:48 ◼   ► them to mobile.

01:07:49 ◼   ► Like they, this is what they think the platform shift is at scale is millions and millions of

01:07:54 ◼   ► more people generating millions and millions of more applications.

01:07:57 ◼   ► He also told me that he thinks the web is a series of databases that agents can go and build

01:08:01 ◼   ► applications out of by remixing.

01:08:02 ◼   ► If you care about the web, you're like, stop.

01:08:08 ◼   ► Hold on, your scientists were so obsessed with what they, right?

01:08:12 ◼   ► Like, um, but that's the rest of the industry and they are racing towards it, like absolutely

01:08:20 ◼   ► racing towards it.

01:08:21 ◼   ► It's not just developers who are excited about building this stuff.

01:08:24 ◼   ► It's like a bunch of kids on TikTok are using AI agent automation platforms like N8N and building

01:08:31 ◼   ► little logic agent things.

01:08:33 ◼   ► And most of them are toys and a vast majority of them are like, what's pirate Instagram reels

01:08:38 ◼   ► to make money on TikTok?

01:08:39 ◼   ► Stop.

01:08:41 ◼   ► Like, but there you see, like, here's like thousands of people who are just excited about building

01:08:49 ◼   ► loops and having the loops do stuff in new ways with new tools.

01:08:52 ◼   ► And you, I just think back to like the web two days.

01:08:54 ◼   ► Like, oh, that's, that's the thing.

01:08:56 ◼   ► That's what's going to happen.

01:08:57 ◼   ► Right.

01:08:57 ◼   ► Remember there's a site called Mashable.

01:08:59 ◼   ► Do you remember what Mashable started?

01:09:00 ◼   ► Mashable is like APIs are a revolution.

01:09:02 ◼   ► And then Facebook was like, no, they're not.

01:09:04 ◼   ► Just ended that.

01:09:07 ◼   ► Um, and like, I see that this is why I'm saying it's sound like a booster.

01:09:12 ◼   ► I don't know if it's going to play.

01:09:13 ◼   ► I don't know how it's going to play.

01:09:14 ◼   ► I don't know how it's going to be successful.

01:09:15 ◼   ► That energy is very familiar to me.

01:09:18 ◼   ► That's what's making me take it all seriously is once you have all these people building new

01:09:23 ◼   ► kinds of experiences in a new way with new paradigms of building applications, something

01:09:29 ◼   ► will change.

01:09:30 ◼   ► They're not going to go back to the old way.

01:09:31 ◼   ► It might peter out the way that, you know, that sort of like web two, Oh, we're going

01:09:35 ◼   ► to make everything out of APIs on the web sort of petered itself out, but it will lead to

01:09:40 ◼   ► a next class of applications.

01:09:41 ◼   ► And I think that is fundamentally fascinating.

01:09:42 ◼   ► I want to go back about two minutes there.

01:09:46 ◼   ► You're, you're telling me that after Google IO, a senior Google executive sat for an interview

01:09:53 ◼   ► with you and answered your questions.

01:09:57 ◼   ► Well, some of them, it was there.

01:10:00 ◼   ► Yes.

01:10:00 ◼   ► And all of them are like, what are you doing to the web dude?

01:10:03 ◼   ► Um, yeah, I, I, I think sometimes look, all these executives are super type a, and I think

01:10:10 ◼   ► they like the fight.

01:10:10 ◼   ► And I think sometimes they choose the fight and they want to show their companies they're

01:10:14 ◼   ► in the fight.

01:10:14 ◼   ► Sometimes they don't.

01:10:16 ◼   ► There's just been a timeout.

01:10:18 ◼   ► You've been put in a little timeout.

01:10:20 ◼   ► I do this to my kids all the time.

01:10:22 ◼   ► You're going to come out of timeout.

01:10:23 ◼   ► Apple's going to take you out.

01:10:28 ◼   ► You just, yeah.

01:10:29 ◼   ► This is one of the weirdest breakups I've ever been a part of.

01:10:32 ◼   ► Yeah, I feel like we're in the middle of a break.

01:10:33 ◼   ► Like we are like.

01:10:34 ◼   ► Yeah, we're like, yeah.

01:10:35 ◼   ► It's like, they're on a break.

01:10:36 ◼   ► And we're not on a break.

01:10:38 ◼   ► The only.

01:10:41 ◼   ► Because we're going to come back and we're going to be here, right?

01:10:44 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:10:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:10:46 ◼   ► We picked John.

01:10:48 ◼   ► Let's be honest.

01:10:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:10:49 ◼   ► I've, I've never been good at staying out of trouble or staying in anyone's good graces.

01:10:56 ◼   ► It's, it's, uh, not my forte.

01:10:59 ◼   ► Um, let's move on.

01:11:01 ◼   ► There was a, you know, the, the Apple's emphasis for the keynote, obviously.

01:11:06 ◼   ► Is the liquid glass redesign, um, which was, you know, there were some rumors about it.

01:11:15 ◼   ► Um, but, um, that was, you know, that's the theme.

01:11:22 ◼   ► Let me ask you this.

01:11:23 ◼   ► If they didn't have liquid glass, this redesign ready to go this year, how would the keynote

01:11:29 ◼   ► yesterday have played to you?

01:11:30 ◼   ► I don't think they would have had enough to fill the keynote.

01:11:37 ◼   ► They spent like four minutes having a woman run while a voice was like, good job.

01:11:40 ◼   ► But liquid glass, I mean, you probably have the breakdown, but like, that was a chunk.

01:11:46 ◼   ► That liquid glass chunk.

01:11:47 ◼   ► I mean, showing it across operating systems was a good five minutes, I want to say.

01:11:51 ◼   ► And then each time they came to a new, other than Vision OS, which sort of already had it,

01:11:56 ◼   ► um, um, it was a big part of it.

01:12:00 ◼   ► I, I obviously, if it wasn't ready, if they had, you know, I don't know, whenever they

01:12:03 ◼   ► make these keynotes, you know, eight, nine, 10 weeks ago, if they were like, this isn't

01:12:08 ◼   ► ready to go this year, we're going to have to wait another year.

01:12:09 ◼   ► I'm sure they would have had other things to fill.

01:12:12 ◼   ► You know, there's always those bento box slides, you know?

01:12:15 ◼   ► Yeah, they would have taken from that slide, and they would have picked like five more things

01:12:18 ◼   ► on that.

01:12:18 ◼   ► And the TVOS team would have been like, we got to come up with something.

01:12:21 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:12:21 ◼   ► Like, anything.

01:12:23 ◼   ► Privacy.

01:12:24 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:12:25 ◼   ► Um, and I'm not slagging them for it, you know, I, but I think they thought, well, we

01:12:31 ◼   ► could do this this year, um, and it'll make for a theme and, you know, it's a splash and

01:12:37 ◼   ► it's sort of, oh yeah, 2025, that was the year they came out with the liquid glass interface.

01:12:42 ◼   ► Um, but without it, you know, they would have filled it, but it would have been even more

01:12:48 ◼   ► so like just a quote, regular WWDC, right?

01:12:53 ◼   ► They've had, I forget how many, uh, they're up to like 40 or something.

01:12:57 ◼   ► I don't know, but it's, it's a very long time that they've been having annual worldwide developer

01:13:02 ◼   ► conferences.

01:13:03 ◼   ► And most of them, if you went back like through all of them are just like, yeah, here's some

01:13:10 ◼   ► updates to our platforms and there's new APIs and, you know, we've added some new features

01:13:15 ◼   ► here and that's what they are.

01:13:17 ◼   ► And that's maybe, you know, inevitable that some years that's what they're going to be.

01:13:21 ◼   ► But I kind of feel like Apple's been king of the tech company hill and, you know, more

01:13:29 ◼   ► often than not over the last so many years, the single most valued company in the world.

01:13:35 ◼   ► And two years ago, they had the big vision pro it's an all new platform and it's, you know,

01:13:42 ◼   ► an all new way of, of computing.

01:13:44 ◼   ► And then last year's open Apple intelligence where they've sort of set themselves up where

01:13:48 ◼   ► we need something big.

01:13:49 ◼   ► We need like a big central theme.

01:13:51 ◼   ► Well, and the reporting from German and others has been that this is the precursor to set up

01:13:57 ◼   ► for some really new hardware products.

01:13:59 ◼   ► And I did try to ask them about that today and they didn't budge, but I think that that's

01:14:03 ◼   ► exciting.

01:14:04 ◼   ► And I think if that's what developers and their diehard fans are thinking about, which

01:14:10 ◼   ► is, okay, this is a beautiful new software or there's a lot of potential here.

01:14:13 ◼   ► What is that going to look like on a thinner iPhone or eventually a foldable iPhone?

01:14:18 ◼   ► That's exciting.

01:14:19 ◼   ► Or, you know, glasses that, you know, have some kind of heads up display that projects through

01:14:26 ◼   ► the real world.

01:14:28 ◼   ► And they've been really clear about that vision OS was the real precursor here, that

01:14:33 ◼   ► that this is what, what prompted them to go through this design change.

01:14:36 ◼   ► What are your thoughts on liquid glass overall in the life?

01:14:40 ◼   ► I talked to a lot of people over the past couple of days, like, oh yeah, it reminds me of iOS

01:14:46 ◼   ► 7.

01:14:46 ◼   ► And I am interpreting that as a trauma response.

01:14:49 ◼   ► Just that's like a good memory.

01:14:54 ◼   ► It took them two years to, to get out of the corner they backed into.

01:14:57 ◼   ► They talked about kind of like a lot of shit about iOS 7 in the liquid glass presentation.

01:15:02 ◼   ► They're like, this was a time of relics, like dinosaurs roamed the earth.

01:15:06 ◼   ► And we were like, get rid of all the, it's like, okay, like this has lasted a pretty long

01:15:10 ◼   ► time.

01:15:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:15:10 ◼   ► It was sort of pitched as like, uh, retina screens were new.

01:15:14 ◼   ► And so we needed a reaction that was retina screen first.

01:15:18 ◼   ► And then they, I forget the exact words, but they were like, and there was some interesting

01:15:22 ◼   ► color choices.

01:15:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:15:24 ◼   ► And it's, I can't help but think that there is, it is like the coldest and subtlest of

01:15:31 ◼   ► a cold war between Johnny Ive and IO and Apple.

01:15:37 ◼   ► Like I, and I kind of feel like if Johnny Ive was only helping Ferrari do their first electric

01:15:47 ◼   ► car, maybe that dig about the color choices in IO7 wouldn't have been there.

01:15:52 ◼   ► Maybe.

01:15:53 ◼   ► You kind of, um, I don't, I, I don't want to report you to back this up.

01:15:57 ◼   ► I just know that I've spent a lot of time on the new Airbnb redesign and Airbnb redesign

01:16:03 ◼   ► has lots of, like basically like skeuomorphism is back.

01:16:05 ◼   ► It's like, they all but set it.

01:16:06 ◼   ► You see, there's lots of animations, lots of texture, lots of rotating 3D elements.

01:16:10 ◼   ► And like, that's where his head's at.

01:16:12 ◼   ► And liquid glass is not that.

01:16:15 ◼   ► Right.

01:16:16 ◼   ► And that it, maybe they're doing it for glasses.

01:16:19 ◼   ► Maybe, you know, they were inspired by the famously successful vision pro, but like you

01:16:26 ◼   ► can't see through a phone.

01:16:27 ◼   ► And so like everything being this transparent to me, I, they're going to have to back off

01:16:34 ◼   ► of it that, and I think it might look really cool and they back off of it, but they're going

01:16:38 ◼   ► to have to back off of it.

01:16:38 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:16:39 ◼   ► I, every time transparency comes out, every time transparency becomes a thing in an OS, the

01:16:45 ◼   ► first version is too transparent and it's no matter what it always is.

01:16:50 ◼   ► It's, it's, I don't know.

01:16:52 ◼   ► It's some kind of immutable law of the universe.

01:16:54 ◼   ► Also in my briefing, I was like, can we turn this off?

01:16:58 ◼   ► And there are settings to basically turn this off.

01:17:01 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:17:01 ◼   ► I'm sure.

01:17:02 ◼   ► Cause the accessibility stuff is, you know, for accessibility reasons alone, but I kind of,

01:17:07 ◼   ► what I kind of hope for, and I haven't hunted around for it is something less than a full

01:17:11 ◼   ► fledged, full accessibility, just make it totally non-transparent and flat, you know, something

01:17:20 ◼   ► in between.

01:17:20 ◼   ► Like, I want a glass slider.

01:17:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:17:22 ◼   ► I want a glass slider.

01:17:23 ◼   ► I want to like turn down the glass.

01:17:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:17:26 ◼   ► Well, did you see what, see in the video, uh, there was a part of this video, it's very

01:17:29 ◼   ► brief, but they would have you believe that Apple's designers like printed out full scale

01:17:35 ◼   ► mock-ups of the interface and Lucite.

01:17:36 ◼   ► They played it on stage.

01:17:38 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:17:38 ◼   ► I was going to say, like, it was like the briefest of like panning shots and like, you know, it's

01:17:42 ◼   ► a designer, like holding a full scale Lucite icon.

01:17:45 ◼   ► It's like, that's the opposite of skeuomorphism.

01:17:49 ◼   ► Like the most not real thing you can do is be like, we're going to, we're going to print

01:17:53 ◼   ► an icon in glass and look at it together.

01:17:56 ◼   ► You know, there's something about that where I like, you've, you've gone too far.

01:18:02 ◼   ► Like you, you, you just dial it back a little bit, it'll be fine.

01:18:05 ◼   ► Uh, and then the other thing that really got me, you know, like, I'm actually curious for

01:18:08 ◼   ► your take on this.

01:18:09 ◼   ► There's a lot of contextual and dynamic user interface elements all through it, right?

01:18:15 ◼   ► We're going to put the menu here where the object is and you'll click on it.

01:18:18 ◼   ► You'll expand the menu right in place.

01:18:19 ◼   ► And every time like an operating system heads in that direction, they, they always go too

01:18:25 ◼   ► far.

01:18:25 ◼   ► Like we're going to get all the shit off the screen.

01:18:27 ◼   ► And then the pendulum has to swing back because you need some consistency and predictability.

01:18:32 ◼   ► And Apple has usually been pretty good about predictability versus contextual UI.

01:18:37 ◼   ► And this seems like they've gone all the way in that direction.

01:18:39 ◼   ► I think I know what you mean.

01:18:44 ◼   ► And, you know, I'll always go back to the Mac menu bar, which I think is considered so boring

01:18:50 ◼   ► and Apple kind of got away from it and they're still like making it invisible now.

01:18:54 ◼   ► And it's like, come on.

01:18:55 ◼   ► Yeah, that's what I mean.

01:18:56 ◼   ► I think, you know, it used to be like the, if you needed to make a thumbnail of a Mac desktop,

01:19:03 ◼   ► how you knew it was a Mac desktop is there would be a couple of rectangles for windows.

01:19:08 ◼   ► And then at the top of the whole rectangle would be the white bar across, which was the menu

01:19:13 ◼   ► bar, right?

01:19:13 ◼   ► The menu bar at the top of the Mac screen was sort of the definition of the Mac.

01:19:18 ◼   ► And it's still there, but it's, it's out of your way, right?

01:19:22 ◼   ► It's the opposite of contextual.

01:19:24 ◼   ► It's just throw your mouse to the top of the screen and go to the view menu.

01:19:28 ◼   ► And, you know, they can go too far.

01:19:32 ◼   ► One thing I noticed is that some of the stuff that is, some of the stuff that I've seen so

01:19:38 ◼   ► far playing around with iOS 26, which is a weird number, it's disconnected from what you see.

01:19:46 ◼   ► They did an interview with Esquire about the version numbers in case you're wondering where

01:19:49 ◼   ► the hard hitting.

01:19:50 ◼   ► What did they say?

01:19:51 ◼   ► They're like, it was time for a change.

01:19:54 ◼   ► This was a TikTok.

01:19:55 ◼   ► Oh.

01:19:56 ◼   ► There's, there's a thing that I, um, I was looking for.

01:20:00 ◼   ► I installed iOS 26 and I wanted to play with the ask button for a screenshot.

01:20:05 ◼   ► I took a screenshot, but at the bottom of my screen were all of the drawing tools, the pencil

01:20:10 ◼   ► and the highlighter and all that stuff.

01:20:12 ◼   ► And I'm like, why, where's, how do I get this?

01:20:15 ◼   ► And it turned out that in the screenshot interface, I had the markup button highlighted and you just

01:20:21 ◼   ► have to turn it off.

01:20:22 ◼   ► but the markup buttons up top and those tools show up at the bottom and that it, it took

01:20:28 ◼   ► me surprisingly long to figure that out because I would expect that the toggle for the palette

01:20:34 ◼   ► of tools is next to the palette of tools, not all the way at the top.

01:20:37 ◼   ► So I think there's a fine line there.

01:20:40 ◼   ► I think sometimes you want stuff to show up right next to the thing and other times you

01:20:44 ◼   ► just want to know where it is.

01:20:46 ◼   ► And that's the secret of the Mac menu bar is when in doubt, just go to the top of the screen

01:20:50 ◼   ► and it's up there somewhere.

01:20:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:20:51 ◼   ► I can't, I mean, I like that sort of like you're in modes.

01:20:56 ◼   ► Like the iPhone doesn't have modes in that way, except in these like weird corners of the

01:20:59 ◼   ► operating system, but it, you just see, I haven't like played with it very deeply, but

01:21:04 ◼   ► lots of the liquid glass philosophy is like things will pop up as lenses over the thing

01:21:10 ◼   ► and that, and that's how you will experience different, not modes, but like different capabilities

01:21:14 ◼   ► of the operating system.

01:21:15 ◼   ► And I, I, I just like wonder if the pendulum has gone too far and it will naturally swing

01:21:21 ◼   ► back the way it kind of always does.

01:21:22 ◼   ► The, the Esquire, it was, I think it was on TikTok.

01:21:25 ◼   ► You sent the link around, but it's like a 30 second interview with Alan, 30 seconds, good.

01:21:31 ◼   ► Lots of, lots of time with top Apple executives, but Alan Dye talking about the version numbers,

01:21:37 ◼   ► but Alan Dye introduced this in the keynote.

01:21:40 ◼   ► And it's like, he just went on and on with this highfalutin talk about it.

01:21:47 ◼   ► I wish I had the quotes, but you know, did everybody watch Alan Dye introduce liquid glass?

01:21:53 ◼   ► And it's, you know, that it, it speaks to our users and it invigorates the spirit of Apple

01:21:59 ◼   ► and, you know, and it, and it, it brings out the, the best in our Apple Silicon.

01:22:05 ◼   ► And it's like, I don't know, bring back like when Steve Jobs showed Aqua, he didn't talk

01:22:12 ◼   ► like that about, he wasn't like, this really shows off the power of our GPUs.

01:22:15 ◼   ► He was like, look at this.

01:22:16 ◼   ► This looks fucking cool.

01:22:18 ◼   ► Right.

01:22:18 ◼   ► Famously.

01:22:20 ◼   ► He was like, you can lick it.

01:22:21 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:22:22 ◼   ► You can lick it.

01:22:23 ◼   ► Right.

01:22:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:22:25 ◼   ► He literally said that.

01:22:26 ◼   ► And I do think that they've sort of blanded themselves away from just saying, you know what?

01:22:35 ◼   ► We made this and it looks really cool.

01:22:37 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:22:38 ◼   ► And we think people have, we think we have more fun at Apple using computers where the interface

01:22:44 ◼   ► looks cool.

01:22:46 ◼   ► And every couple of years, it needs to look new to keep looking cool.

01:22:50 ◼   ► It can't look the same.

01:22:51 ◼   ► And that's enough.

01:22:53 ◼   ► That's reason enough to do a redesign.

01:22:55 ◼   ► I feel like they wanted to talk themselves into some sort of logic, you know, let's explain

01:23:00 ◼   ► to the business world why it makes logical sense for us to spend all this time.

01:23:04 ◼   ► And it's like, no, just looking cool is reason enough.

01:23:07 ◼   ► It really is.

01:23:08 ◼   ► It's a great reason to do a redesign.

01:23:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:23:10 ◼   ► Again, Steve, it's true.

01:23:12 ◼   ► I was going to say, like, famously, like, we can, like, relive, like, the Slashdot arguments

01:23:21 ◼   ► about burning CPU cycles and, like, rendering the interface.

01:23:24 ◼   ► You can tell how I'm poisoned.

01:23:27 ◼   ► This is how I grew up in the computer lab on Slashdot.

01:23:29 ◼   ► But no, actually, like, software design as a whole is, like, everything is too serious.

01:23:35 ◼   ► Like, there's a lot of self-seriousness.

01:23:37 ◼   ► And I think maybe some of the only designers left that are just, like, yeah, it looks rad

01:23:41 ◼   ► are, like, car designers.

01:23:42 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:23:42 ◼   ► Like, we made it look like a jet.

01:23:43 ◼   ► Like, okay.

01:23:44 ◼   ► Like, every Toyota is now an angry robot.

01:23:47 ◼   ► Like, okay.

01:23:47 ◼   ► Like, there's no reason for this at all.

01:23:49 ◼   ► Like, and I would actually like to see some of that whimsy come back to Apple.

01:23:53 ◼   ► But Apple's so big.

01:23:54 ◼   ► And, like, I don't, they need to have more fun with some of the things that they're able

01:24:00 ◼   ► to have fun with.

01:24:01 ◼   ► And I agree with you.

01:24:01 ◼   ► And I think they should just say we're doing it for fun.

01:24:04 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:24:04 ◼   ► You know, I think that's reasonable.

01:24:05 ◼   ► You know, I also remember in the original iPhone announcement at Macworld in 2007 that Steve

01:24:13 ◼   ► Jobs did the slide to unlock, like, more than once.

01:24:17 ◼   ► Like, he was like, here, let me lock it again and show this to you.

01:24:20 ◼   ► And then it tracked his finger perfectly.

01:24:23 ◼   ► And it was this cool-looking metal-looking button that was in a cool-looking channel in the

01:24:28 ◼   ► back of the channel that the button slid across said slide to unlock.

01:24:32 ◼   ► Wait, do you think this is just sort of the, like, accidental legacy of Johnny Ives' British

01:24:37 ◼   ► accent?

01:24:39 ◼   ► It's like, everything just felt very serious.

01:24:42 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

01:24:42 ◼   ► Right?

01:24:42 ◼   ► He was like, he says aluminum.

01:24:44 ◼   ► Like, we gotta, what's our new aluminum?

01:24:46 ◼   ► Like, he's like, it's inevitable.

01:24:49 ◼   ► And I'm like, oh, shit, we, this is like, we gotta do, it has to sound like a museum.

01:24:53 ◼   ► Right.

01:24:53 ◼   ► Yeah, maybe.

01:24:55 ◼   ► You know, it wasn't that Johnny Ives was bringing the pretension, but the way he spoke.

01:25:00 ◼   ► Yeah, it's like literally the pretension of being British.

01:25:02 ◼   ► But they could, right, you see what I'm saying?

01:25:07 ◼   ► They could just get a new voiceover artist.

01:25:09 ◼   ► That's true, they could just have an AI.

01:25:10 ◼   ► They could just have AI do the voiceover.

01:25:12 ◼   ► It fucking rules.

01:25:13 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

01:25:14 ◼   ► Getting into the individual platforms, I'll start with the one that didn't really get the

01:25:20 ◼   ► new refresh because it didn't need to, is Vision OS.

01:25:23 ◼   ► But, you know, say what you will about the popularity of Vision Pro and the, you know, here we are two

01:25:31 ◼   ► years after it was announced and, what, a year and a half after it started shipping.

01:25:37 ◼   ► They are full steam ahead on Vision OS.

01:25:39 ◼   ► The Vision OS 26 is super impressive.

01:25:42 ◼   ► I did the, I had a briefing where I got to do the new, you know, much improved persona.

01:25:49 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm very excited to see this.

01:25:51 ◼   ► It's real.

01:25:52 ◼   ► I mean, it is like really freaky, like, because then it, part of the demo, I don't know, maybe

01:25:58 ◼   ► it should have been somebody else, but it was like me looking at me.

01:26:03 ◼   ► Oh, I love that they did that to you.

01:26:04 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:26:04 ◼   ► Like, you think about what you've done, John.

01:26:07 ◼   ► What?

01:26:07 ◼   ► They scan, re-scan your face?

01:26:17 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

01:26:17 ◼   ► Okay.

01:26:17 ◼   ► I sat down and did the demo and held it out and went through the thing and then they

01:26:21 ◼   ► were like, here, here it is.

01:26:23 ◼   ► And, you know, let me record like, you know, like when you go on vacation and you stick your

01:26:29 ◼   ► head through a donkey or something.

01:26:31 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:26:32 ◼   ► You know, like there's a picture of a donkey without a head and, come on, Eli, you know

01:26:37 ◼   ► what I'm talking about.

01:26:38 ◼   ► I stuck my head through a donkey on a last vacation.

01:26:40 ◼   ► The classic American vacation, locating a donkey.

01:26:45 ◼   ► No, but it was like a way to, like, I got like a souvenir video of my persona at Apple Park

01:26:53 ◼   ► in front of the big inflatable rainbow inside the room.

01:26:56 ◼   ► They sent you that?

01:26:58 ◼   ► Well, they airdropped it to me after I made it.

01:26:59 ◼   ► What are you going to do with that?

01:27:00 ◼   ► I'll show it to you after this.

01:27:02 ◼   ► Okay, yeah, I can't wait.

01:27:03 ◼   ► The stuff with the widget stuck on the wall, super impressive.

01:27:09 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:27:09 ◼   ► And they're really stable and they look really cool.

01:27:12 ◼   ► And you can get up real close to them when you're walking around and like the clock has

01:27:18 ◼   ► like, in watch terminology, applied numerals.

01:27:22 ◼   ► So you get real close to the clock and it's not a flat clock face that prints the digit

01:27:27 ◼   ► six and nine and 12.

01:27:30 ◼   ► They're like a plastic pieces applied to the clock that have a little bit of three dimensional

01:27:36 ◼   ► depth.

01:27:36 ◼   ► And when you turn around, it is in the exact same place.

01:27:39 ◼   ► Like, and they had like a demo room for the sake of brevity in the briefing already set

01:27:45 ◼   ► up.

01:27:45 ◼   ► And I could tell that the stuff like there was a poster for the Apple music widget for Lady

01:27:51 ◼   ► Gaga and it was above a chair and it was perfectly aligned with the chair.

01:27:55 ◼   ► And so I could tell that whoever set it up, I'm seeing it like to the inch where they

01:27:59 ◼   ► put it.

01:27:59 ◼   ► Oh, that's cool.

01:28:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:28:01 ◼   ► It's really cool.

01:28:01 ◼   ► This is like the most AR-y vision OS has gotten.

01:28:04 ◼   ► And it's like a clock.

01:28:06 ◼   ► But like, this is the, like a very impressive clock.

01:28:12 ◼   ► But like the promise of this thing was that it was, you know, it was going to lead Apple

01:28:16 ◼   ► towards the AR future they were trying to build.

01:28:18 ◼   ► And most of the experiences were VR or like pass through mixed reality with some of you.

01:28:23 ◼   ► Like they're like, there's a clock in your room that's always there when you put on the

01:28:26 ◼   ► headset.

01:28:26 ◼   ► Cause they, they've solved that problem too.

01:28:28 ◼   ► Like stuff stays in place between sessions.

01:28:30 ◼   ► I think that's like the first little indication that they, they can actually do some of the

01:28:34 ◼   ► stuff they were promising to do.

01:28:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:28:36 ◼   ► I thought that I think it was 2018 when Mike Rockwell was my guest on the show and you

01:28:42 ◼   ► know, there was five years before vision pro was announced.

01:28:46 ◼   ► Um, and, but they had a whole bunch of VR stuff in WWDC.

01:28:50 ◼   ► And if you like read between the lines, they must be making a headset, right?

01:28:53 ◼   ► I mean, there's no other reason.

01:28:55 ◼   ► And, um, I kind of feel like this year's vision OS is sort of like, oh, they're definitely

01:29:01 ◼   ► making glasses.

01:29:01 ◼   ► Like, cause yes, they've added immersive stuff.

01:29:04 ◼   ► Like if you have the three 60 GoPro and they'll work with the camera company so you can get

01:29:09 ◼   ► an immersive experience out of your own footage, super impressive.

01:29:12 ◼   ► I got to demo that, but most of it was AR not VR.

01:29:16 ◼   ► And most of it would make way more sense with see-through glasses than, uh, goggles with screens

01:29:22 ◼   ► in front of your eyes.

01:29:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:29:23 ◼   ► I actually, I thought that was an interesting gap in the first vision pro because like how

01:29:29 ◼   ► many years of Apple keynotes do we watch people like play chess on an iPad that wasn't

01:29:33 ◼   ► there and they'd be like, this is amazing.

01:29:35 ◼   ► And you'd be like, I'm not looking at your iPad with you.

01:29:37 ◼   ► This is-

01:29:38 ◼   ► See a giant dragon.

01:29:39 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:29:40 ◼   ► This is like, this is just you being impressed by an iPad.

01:29:42 ◼   ► Um, they're very impressive.

01:29:45 ◼   ► Uh, and then the vision pro watch, it didn't have any of that stuff.

01:29:48 ◼   ► Right.

01:29:48 ◼   ► No dragons appeared.

01:29:49 ◼   ► No chess was played.

01:29:50 ◼   ► Uh, and now you're like, oh, they're getting there.

01:29:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:29:53 ◼   ► Right.

01:29:54 ◼   ► They, they're connecting the dots between all the spatial location and stuff they have

01:29:56 ◼   ► to do to build the glasses.

01:29:59 ◼   ► I think someone has to build a display that, like there's a whole laundry list of technology

01:30:03 ◼   ► you have to solve that maybe Apple will solve before everyone else.

01:30:05 ◼   ► Right.

01:30:06 ◼   ► Uh, but like they will have a software lead because they're, they have this simulator for

01:30:11 ◼   ► it.

01:30:11 ◼   ► The other thing that, uh, I think is the most important update to vision OS of all is that

01:30:16 ◼   ► it can save your user to your phone.

01:30:18 ◼   ► Yes.

01:30:18 ◼   ► And so the headsets are interchangeable, which massive oversight in the first generation.

01:30:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:30:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:30:24 ◼   ► But they, you still can't have multiple users on an iPad.

01:30:27 ◼   ► Well, Greg is in my role as Greg.

01:30:32 ◼   ► Yes.

01:30:32 ◼   ► I will tell you that it's because we want you to buy more iPads.

01:30:35 ◼   ► And actually they did say that in my interviews.

01:30:40 ◼   ► Really?

01:30:42 ◼   ► Well, I'm sure we're going to get to this, but the Mac, Mac and iPad distinction.

01:30:47 ◼   ► I was very, I was, I, you know, you know, my thoughts on this.

01:30:50 ◼   ► Both of you do.

01:30:51 ◼   ► I would like to see either a touchscreen Mac or the Mac OS come to iPad.

01:30:54 ◼   ► And, uh, they repeatedly told me no today, uh, many times no.

01:31:00 ◼   ► And, um, but then they said, we would think you should have both.

01:31:03 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:31:04 ◼   ► It's fun.

01:31:05 ◼   ► It is fun doing this show where I can bring up, it's a repeated question over the years.

01:31:09 ◼   ► Why can't you have multiple users on an iPad?

01:31:11 ◼   ► It's really refreshing to get an honest answer.

01:31:13 ◼   ► I do what I can.

01:31:16 ◼   ► Transparency is really part of everything we do here at Apple.

01:31:18 ◼   ► But also the iPad isn't $3,500.

01:31:20 ◼   ► Right.

01:31:22 ◼   ► I mean, the Vision Pro is still $3,500 and your iPad is, that you're trying to sell me is $100.

01:31:29 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:31:29 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:31:30 ◼   ► $200.

01:31:31 ◼   ► Let's do iPhone first.

01:31:32 ◼   ► $279.

01:31:33 ◼   ► Um, the camera app has a total redesign.

01:31:38 ◼   ► And I have to wonder if they, after the reaction last year to redesigning the Photos app, if it gave them pause about redesigning camera.

01:31:48 ◼   ► Um, I, I, you know, I haven't used it.

01:31:52 ◼   ► I have it on a spare phone, but I, you know, I kind of like the idea where there's, for most users, there's just video photo.

01:31:59 ◼   ► And you have to like long press to get into which type of photo or video, but this is one of those handful of apps that like, I don't know what, what percentage of iPhone users do you think just sticks with the built-in camera app?

01:32:14 ◼   ► 96%, it's 97.

01:32:18 ◼   ► 99.9.

01:32:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:32:19 ◼   ► So it is a super, super.

01:32:22 ◼   ► No offense to the other iPhone camera app makers.

01:32:25 ◼   ► But I thought I, when I watched this, I was like, oh, good.

01:32:28 ◼   ► I'll still have a job.

01:32:29 ◼   ► Um, cause I will have to teach people how to find this.

01:32:32 ◼   ► Right.

01:32:32 ◼   ► I think that it is going to be, and I was excited about the fact that just these two things, I find it very overwhelming.

01:32:38 ◼   ► And, you know, if you don't know right now, you like, you know, if you swipe up and sometimes you end up in the swipe up menu and you're like, how did I, what, I don't need all this.

01:32:45 ◼   ► I just want to get back to this.

01:32:46 ◼   ► I think it's good to hide a lot of that stuff and then focus on the camera photo, but, and the camera video.

01:32:52 ◼   ► But I think, I wonder, was this, do they have a way to go back to the classic?

01:32:58 ◼   ► Which was the one, what was the one that you can go back to the classic?

01:33:01 ◼   ► Uh, the phone app.

01:33:02 ◼   ► The phone app you can go back to the classic.

01:33:04 ◼   ► And I remember thinking they should have this in a couple of different apps.

01:33:08 ◼   ► Right.

01:33:08 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:33:09 ◼   ► Apple's in a weird spot with the, uh, the camera.

01:33:11 ◼   ► Uh, we wrote a piece years ago about why all the Chinese phone makers copy the Apple

01:33:16 ◼   ► camera app so closely.

01:33:17 ◼   ► And it's because they want to lower the switching cost.

01:33:20 ◼   ► Because if you pick up another phone and you can't use the camera, you're never going to buy that phone.

01:33:24 ◼   ► Like, you're immediately frustrated, you're done.

01:33:25 ◼   ► So they all just ruthlessly copy the iPhone camera app.

01:33:29 ◼   ► And it, Apple's in the same spot where like, if you pick up your iPhone and you can't use the camera app, you will be frustrated because it is such a core part of the phone.

01:33:38 ◼   ► So the changes they made are pretty minor, right?

01:33:40 ◼   ► They've just made it simpler.

01:33:41 ◼   ► Right.

01:33:42 ◼   ► And you kind of wonder, like, do they feel constrained for making a bigger change here?

01:33:46 ◼   ► Because if people are frustrated with their new camera, like, that's the end of the world.

01:33:50 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:33:52 ◼   ► I'm really curious to see how it hits when it drops.

01:33:55 ◼   ► And I feel like it could be one of those things.

01:33:57 ◼   ► You know, like, I was kind of wrong about USB-C.

01:34:00 ◼   ► I thought because of how many people in my family when they switched from the old 30-pin to Lightning, how I, everybody in my family called me and they're like, why do I have to get a new plug?

01:34:09 ◼   ► Like, why doesn't, why don't me and my husband get to use the same plugs anymore?

01:34:14 ◼   ► And when they switched to USB-C, it was like nothing.

01:34:19 ◼   ► It's like, I think because the whole world went USB-C and everybody already had a bunch of cables or something like that.

01:34:24 ◼   ► And so it's very hard to predict.

01:34:26 ◼   ► But I wouldn't be surprised if, like, we go through the summer and all the nerds who will install the iOS 26 beta are just playing with the camera and are, like, used to it.

01:34:34 ◼   ► And then, like, come September 20, whatever, when it ships, everybody is like, what happened to my camera?

01:34:40 ◼   ► No, I mean, you picked up on the, you said the Photos app.

01:34:44 ◼   ► That was a huge thing.

01:34:45 ◼   ► And I have a lot of old elderly readers at the Wall Street Journal.

01:34:50 ◼   ► How do I say this in a polite way?

01:34:52 ◼   ► They're old.

01:34:53 ◼   ► And I hear from them.

01:34:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:34:56 ◼   ► And when you move something, they are very upset.

01:35:00 ◼   ► And that's always, I always, when I look at these redesigns, think about that juggling act that Apple has to deal with, right?

01:35:06 ◼   ► They have so many people who just want the phone as is.

01:35:11 ◼   ► But then they have a lot of us that, exactly as you said, it's cool.

01:35:14 ◼   ► It's awesome to get a new kind of phone.

01:35:16 ◼   ► I mean, my favorite part of the year is covering iOS every year because you get to tell people about, oh, look at this free new phone you get, right?

01:35:23 ◼   ► I mean, you don't pay for it.

01:35:26 ◼   ► Yeah, and did Rupert Murdoch call you for tech support?

01:35:28 ◼   ► Do you have, like, a weird personal episode of Succession once a year when they update the interface?

01:35:33 ◼   ► I don't have that specific, but I may be thinking about him when I'm talking about these types of changes.

01:35:39 ◼   ► But, I mean, but also, like, it's not just an age.

01:35:42 ◼   ► Like, you know, my wife is not much older than me.

01:35:46 ◼   ► I mean, she's also, like, she, and I can't believe that, like, I married her, but she will not update.

01:35:51 ◼   ► Like, she will not update.

01:35:54 ◼   ► And I will be, like, you must update.

01:35:56 ◼   ► I mean, there have been things, like, group text messages, you know, different things.

01:35:59 ◼   ► Like, I'm, like, you haven't updated in two years.

01:36:02 ◼   ► I'm married to this person.

01:36:06 ◼   ► Well, I mean, for a lot of people, phones are appliances.

01:36:10 ◼   ► And if, like, you showed up in your kitchen and your microwave was fucked, you'd be, like, what?

01:36:14 ◼   ► Why did you do this to me?

01:36:15 ◼   ► Right?

01:36:16 ◼   ► Like, and the answer is because it's better or more efficient or because it just looks cool.

01:36:21 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:36:22 ◼   ► There's, that's a weirdness here where Apple is at such a scale where they are constrained and maybe they just have to make the big changes all at once.

01:36:29 ◼   ► Right.

01:36:29 ◼   ► Because it can't make the iterative changes.

01:36:31 ◼   ► I will say that the phone app, or not the phone app, the camera app in particular is another, like, hidden UI, like, wonderland.

01:36:38 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:36:38 ◼   ► Where all, it's all still there.

01:36:39 ◼   ► You just have to know it's there.

01:36:41 ◼   ► Right.

01:36:42 ◼   ► But it's all still there in approximately the same places.

01:36:45 ◼   ► I thought it was super telling.

01:36:48 ◼   ► You mentioned the phone app, and so that's another thing that they've changed.

01:36:51 ◼   ► And that's an app where the look of it changed with iOS 7, but the layout didn't change from, like, iOS OG, right?

01:36:59 ◼   ► But, you know.

01:37:00 ◼   ► But actually, now that I think, I think they did this for the older people.

01:37:03 ◼   ► The classic mode.

01:37:05 ◼   ► Right.

01:37:05 ◼   ► Because they need to make phone calls.

01:37:07 ◼   ► What?

01:37:07 ◼   ► Right?

01:37:08 ◼   ► Like, they're like, you, that's one step too far that you've changed.

01:37:13 ◼   ► Right, and they figured out the old layout.

01:37:15 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:37:15 ◼   ► And that voicemails are over there.

01:37:17 ◼   ► Right.

01:37:17 ◼   ► And the recents are over here.

01:37:19 ◼   ► I was almost shocked when they showed it, and I was like, oh, that's like an admission that you, like, this is.

01:37:24 ◼   ► And I think the big tell that they are willing to, it's like new Apple that is getting used to accommodating, like, a billion plus user base.

01:37:33 ◼   ► As opposed to old Apple, which had, like, four or five percent of the market.

01:37:37 ◼   ► But the four or five percent were like, yeah, we love you, and we want, just tell me where to learn about this stuff.

01:37:42 ◼   ► But you'd think, like, with a camera app, you would have a pro mode or a creator mode or, like, right?

01:37:47 ◼   ► There's lots of things you could do to solve that problem in that app in particular that they seem resistant to.

01:37:52 ◼   ► But that's also an area, and again, and not just because I have friends, and I know some of them are here, but who make the pro camera app.

01:37:58 ◼   ► It really is well served by the pro camera apps.

01:38:01 ◼   ► It really is.

01:38:02 ◼   ► Absolutely.

01:38:02 ◼   ► And when I said 99 percent, I don't even mean that as a knock.

01:38:04 ◼   ► I just mean that that's how big the install base is.

01:38:06 ◼   ► Right, and one percent of all users.

01:38:08 ◼   ► Right.

01:38:08 ◼   ► I mean.

01:38:09 ◼   ► Like, what's the percentage of iPhone users who never take pictures, right?

01:38:13 ◼   ► My dad is one.

01:38:15 ◼   ► My dad has an iPhone, and I don't think he's ever taken a photograph.

01:38:18 ◼   ► Wild.

01:38:19 ◼   ► Yeah, but he's 87, you know.

01:38:22 ◼   ► You know, they're out there, but it's, you know, very small, right?

01:38:27 ◼   ► It's just one of those apps that, you know, everybody uses.

01:38:30 ◼   ► But I thought the big tell with the phone interface wasn't just that they're going to have, here, we have a new unified view, which sounds good to me.

01:38:37 ◼   ► Like, I kind of hate when I've got the red badge, and it's the same person who counts as a recent and a voicemail.

01:38:43 ◼   ► And it's like, I've got to click through both to get rid of the badge.

01:38:46 ◼   ► Yeah, I like this.

01:38:47 ◼   ► I like the sounds of this.

01:38:48 ◼   ► But I think the real tell is that to get to the classic interface, you don't have to, like, go back to settings.

01:38:53 ◼   ► Right.

01:38:54 ◼   ► Go down to apps.

01:38:55 ◼   ► It's right up in the right.

01:38:55 ◼   ► It's up there in the corner.

01:38:56 ◼   ► You just hit the dot, dot, dot.

01:38:58 ◼   ► And then right at the top of the menu that opens is, do you want the classic layout or the new layout?

01:39:03 ◼   ► Oh, I'm going to be so popular the week that comes out.

01:39:06 ◼   ► I mean, seriously, that would be the most popular story on the Wall Street Journal.

01:39:10 ◼   ► It would be great.

01:39:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:39:12 ◼   ► And they did.

01:39:12 ◼   ► It's like, Tariff's rock of the world.

01:39:15 ◼   ► I'm not joking.

01:39:17 ◼   ► We can revisit this.

01:39:18 ◼   ► Let's talk in the beginning of September.

01:39:19 ◼   ► I will be queen.

01:39:21 ◼   ► Photos.

01:39:23 ◼   ► Photos have it.

01:39:25 ◼   ► How to make calls with your iPhone.

01:39:27 ◼   ► Photos, they.

01:39:33 ◼   ► Thank you, Apple.

01:39:34 ◼   ► Thank you, Apple.

01:39:34 ◼   ► Somehow, I've interpreted that as a threat against the Wall Street Journal.

01:39:39 ◼   ► Right.

01:39:39 ◼   ► Oh, yeah.

01:39:40 ◼   ► Come at me.

01:39:41 ◼   ► Come at me.

01:39:42 ◼   ► Top this this week.

01:39:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:39:46 ◼   ► The Photos app has a new tab now where they kind of kept the idea of, we have these collections.

01:39:54 ◼   ► We think it would be really useful if you took a look at them.

01:39:56 ◼   ► We think you'd find it useful.

01:39:57 ◼   ► But okay, we'll just make it a tab at the bottom, and we'll just show you your library in the Photos app.

01:40:04 ◼   ► And they kind of acknowledged, I forget how they said it.

01:40:07 ◼   ► They said, many of you enjoyed using tabs.

01:40:08 ◼   ► No, but they said, like, we heard from some of you about the Photos app or something like that, you know.

01:40:15 ◼   ► Just to keep harping on this, this is just the pendulum swung towards contextual dynamic UI, and then everyone was like, what?

01:40:24 ◼   ► I just want the buttons that tell me what mode I'm in, and they put the button back.

01:40:28 ◼   ► And I just see that pendulum swing back and forth in iOS like crazy right now.

01:40:31 ◼   ► Right.

01:40:33 ◼   ► I thought you were going to say that you saw this on TikTok.

01:40:35 ◼   ► I see everything out of this.

01:40:37 ◼   ► I know.

01:40:38 ◼   ► It's just me, like, Zoomers doing piracy on TikTok is, like, my entire...

01:40:42 ◼   ► Well, people complaining about the photo app on TikTok was a whole thing.

01:40:45 ◼   ► Hmm.

01:40:45 ◼   ► Yeah, oh, yeah, definitely.

01:40:47 ◼   ► You have older people on your TikTok.

01:40:49 ◼   ► Yeah, they're my older people.

01:40:50 ◼   ► I honestly feel...

01:40:51 ◼   ► Rupert Murdoch being like, what the fuck is that?

01:40:53 ◼   ► I kind of...

01:40:54 ◼   ► I kind of get the complaints about the Photos app.

01:40:59 ◼   ► I see what people didn't like, but I kind of feel like it took off to a point where,

01:41:03 ◼   ► for young people, it's like, you weren't cool if you didn't hate on the iOS 18 Photos app.

01:41:08 ◼   ► Like, you kind of had to, you know...

01:41:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:41:10 ◼   ► I didn't hate it, honestly.

01:41:13 ◼   ► Do you think your dad would take a virtual picture of your head through a donkey?

01:41:21 ◼   ► Let's ask ChatGPT.

01:41:22 ◼   ► Like, do you think that would initiate him?

01:41:25 ◼   ► One of those prompts that really you're trying to make the ChatGPT give a nonsense.

01:41:31 ◼   ► What about a sloth with a light bulb?

01:41:35 ◼   ► Can I just note that this podcast has almost been going for two hours, and we have not gotten

01:41:39 ◼   ► to iPad and Mac?

01:41:40 ◼   ► And I know that we are going...

01:41:43 ◼   ► iPad windowing is my next part.

01:41:44 ◼   ► That's another 40 minutes.

01:41:45 ◼   ► These people are trapped.

01:41:46 ◼   ► You guys know that's 40 minutes, right?

01:41:49 ◼   ► That's another 40 minutes.

01:41:50 ◼   ► No.

01:41:51 ◼   ► They saved it for last...

01:41:52 ◼   ► I think it was the last platform they talked about.

01:41:54 ◼   ► iPad.

01:41:55 ◼   ► But they went through Mac quickly.

01:41:56 ◼   ► And tvOS.

01:41:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:41:57 ◼   ► Well, tvOS, they're like, yeah, it's clear now.

01:42:00 ◼   ► Also, look at our shows.

01:42:01 ◼   ► And it's like, so you have no ideas.

01:42:02 ◼   ► No further ideas for the TV.

01:42:05 ◼   ► Posters look cooler.

01:42:06 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

01:42:06 ◼   ► No, iPad windowing.

01:42:08 ◼   ► I mean, let's do it while we still have gas in the tank here, because how much do you want

01:42:13 ◼   ► to talk about it?

01:42:14 ◼   ► 40 minutes.

01:42:18 ◼   ► I mean, yeah.

01:42:19 ◼   ► That's the downside of doing this on stage.

01:42:21 ◼   ► Scattered applause.

01:42:22 ◼   ► I can't take...

01:42:25 ◼   ► Whenever I do one of Gruber's podcasts, I always take like a 15-minute break in the middle.

01:42:28 ◼   ► I go get food.

01:42:29 ◼   ► I get my coffee.

01:42:30 ◼   ► Walk the dog.

01:42:32 ◼   ► This is the downside of the live show.

01:42:35 ◼   ► I feel like this is finally, right?

01:42:40 ◼   ► Like, finally, they've just sort of given in on the idea that, yeah, we kind of know how

01:42:46 ◼   ► overlapping windows should work.

01:42:48 ◼   ► We got it right in 1984, right?

01:42:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:42:53 ◼   ► Close button in the top left.

01:42:56 ◼   ► You can...

01:42:57 ◼   ► There's a little thing in the bottom right where you can drag it to resize it, and you can move

01:43:01 ◼   ► them wherever you want, and we think you'll like it.

01:43:04 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:43:05 ◼   ► And even when you have a second monitor?

01:43:07 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

01:43:10 ◼   ► Yeah, I saw that demo today, and it's...

01:43:12 ◼   ► Yeah, it's...

01:43:13 ◼   ► It is...

01:43:14 ◼   ► I guess...

01:43:15 ◼   ► I mean, you know, I don't know what they've been thinking for the years since they first

01:43:19 ◼   ► invented split screen on iPad, where they've been resisting just doing Mac-style Windows.

01:43:26 ◼   ► And I guess, maybe.

01:43:27 ◼   ► I mean, and it's the sort of thing...

01:43:29 ◼   ► I'd love to hear the explanation.

01:43:30 ◼   ► But I...

01:43:33 ◼   ► My spitball theory is that they thought if it looks too much like a Mac, it'll make it even

01:43:38 ◼   ► more hard to answer the question of why are there two different operating systems, Mac and

01:43:43 ◼   ► iPad OS.

01:43:44 ◼   ► And so if we make it totally different, it'll make people not...

01:43:48 ◼   ► And I think they sort of thought themselves into knots by just not doing the obvious thing.

01:43:54 ◼   ► Like, yes, we have two systems that are based on Windows that overlap, and you can drag around.

01:43:59 ◼   ► And so they share a similar design language and placement of controls.

01:44:03 ◼   ► So I heard a variation of an answer, just like walking around yesterday.

01:44:08 ◼   ► I don't know if they talked to you about this.

01:44:11 ◼   ► And I don't know if I believe it, but they, from what I understand, they were worried

01:44:18 ◼   ► that anything that increased the latency of the touch screen would wreck the iPad.

01:44:23 ◼   ► So, like, they're like, we needed the full processing power of the...

01:44:27 ◼   ► So that we can have multiple windows, and if you touch the iPad, it's always alive.

01:44:31 ◼   ► And on a Mac, you can...

01:44:33 ◼   ► As long as the mouse is moving, you're not too worried that the computer has crashed.

01:44:37 ◼   ► But you have that.

01:44:39 ◼   ► That's always happening.

01:44:40 ◼   ► And you can preserve the mouse is moving, even if the apps are still in the background.

01:44:43 ◼   ► But there's no feedback.

01:44:44 ◼   ► There's nothing to...

01:44:46 ◼   ► Feedback that the computer is anything but crashed on an iPad.

01:44:48 ◼   ► I don't know if I believe this.

01:44:50 ◼   ► Like, the computers have been very powerful for a long time.

01:44:53 ◼   ► But they've tried every other idea of multitasking on a Mac.

01:44:57 ◼   ► Like, every other possible variation of multitasking on an iPad.

01:45:01 ◼   ► And I think they...

01:45:02 ◼   ► People just want Windows.

01:45:04 ◼   ► And especially now you have multiple monitors for all this stuff.

01:45:07 ◼   ► Do you think the application platforms are going to converge more than they have now?

01:45:10 ◼   ► That's my biggest question.

01:45:12 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:45:14 ◼   ► I mean, they've had the...

01:45:16 ◼   ► What's it called where you make a...

01:45:20 ◼   ► Catalyst.

01:45:21 ◼   ► Catalyst, right.

01:45:21 ◼   ► And...

01:45:23 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:45:26 ◼   ► I feel like Catalyst hasn't really shaken up the...

01:45:30 ◼   ► You know, it doesn't seem like we see lots of new blockbuster Mac apps all the time anymore.

01:45:36 ◼   ► But there still are new Mac apps that come out that are really asked Mac apps to use that parlance.

01:45:42 ◼   ► So, I don't think they're going to converge.

01:45:44 ◼   ► But I do think that with, like, Swift UI and stuff that there will be so many...

01:45:48 ◼   ► It'll be a lot easier.

01:45:49 ◼   ► And it's not just by using Catalyst to say,

01:45:51 ◼   ► Ah, just spit this out and run it on a Mac.

01:45:53 ◼   ► But to have a Mac app that does Mac-like things...

01:45:58 ◼   ► And I just think it is hard to explain to a normal person the things that make a Mac a Mac that wouldn't be right on iPad.

01:46:09 ◼   ► You know, and it's the new export feature, right?

01:46:12 ◼   ► And this was kind of weird that they made Final Cut Pro for iPad a couple years ago.

01:46:17 ◼   ► And you had to leave it in the foreground while it exported, which could take minutes because it takes a long time.

01:46:25 ◼   ► Or maybe more than minutes, right?

01:46:26 ◼   ► For a long enough project.

01:46:28 ◼   ► And now, in addition to the windowing system, there's a new thing.

01:46:33 ◼   ► There's an API where an app that does a long export process can...

01:46:39 ◼   ► It just becomes a live activity.

01:46:41 ◼   ► And it could take, you know, 30 minutes.

01:46:43 ◼   ► And you could just go about your day and go to email and dick around on messages or whatever you want to do.

01:46:49 ◼   ► And it live updates in the background.

01:46:52 ◼   ► And then when you're driving your car, the live activity dynamically shows up in CarPlay.

01:46:57 ◼   ► This is the power of the Apple ecosystem.

01:46:59 ◼   ► My theory on this now, and I am very excited about these iPad changes.

01:47:04 ◼   ► But I think having complained about this for so many years, 10, how many years now?

01:47:10 ◼   ► That we've, since the, what is a computer ad, I feel like.

01:47:14 ◼   ► We will, I personally, and maybe others feel this way, will continue to complain about the iPad not being a Mac until it is a Mac with a touchscreen.

01:47:26 ◼   ► Because even though what they gave us yesterday, which was great windowing, more desktop, more monitor support, and preview, which is actually a really big deal for me.

01:47:34 ◼   ► I, like, live in preview with a lot of the work I do.

01:47:36 ◼   ► I'm still like, oh, yeah, now what about the apps?

01:47:40 ◼   ► What about the Mac apps that I would want?

01:47:42 ◼   ► What about the file system?

01:47:44 ◼   ► What about this?

01:47:44 ◼   ► And it's like, I'm going to just keep, for the end of time, want that, those Mac things to be on an iPad with a touchscreen that I can take off and then go use somewhere else.

01:47:55 ◼   ► Which is your argument you've always made to me, which is like, do you really just want a Mac with a touchscreen?

01:48:01 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:48:02 ◼   ► Or do you want an iPad with Mac OS?

01:48:05 ◼   ► I think you should buy a Macintosh.

01:48:09 ◼   ► Have you heard of it?

01:48:11 ◼   ► As Greg Joswiak can believe that?

01:48:13 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm saying, have you thought about buying both products?

01:48:14 ◼   ► No, he told, they told me today that I should buy both products.

01:48:17 ◼   ► They're hoping to buy both products.

01:48:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:48:20 ◼   ► Not to just, like, harp on, like, the future of application platforms, but, like, in what other room would you do that?

01:48:26 ◼   ► The weird thing about the Mac right now, and the weird thing about, like, where the action is, is, like, it's all web apps, right?

01:48:35 ◼   ► Like, I, in the airport on the way here, I met a developer who was not coming to WWC.

01:48:39 ◼   ► He was headed elsewhere, and he was like, look, the nature of our app is that the market share is on Android, so we care a lot about Android, and most of our action, our growth, is on the web.

01:48:49 ◼   ► Like, that's how we're distributing the app to people.

01:48:51 ◼   ► And that's just making a comeback.

01:48:52 ◼   ► Like, the example I always use is Figma.

01:48:54 ◼   ► Figma is a miracle of a web app, right?

01:48:57 ◼   ► And it has overtaken the design world in all the ways that it has, and it's a web app.

01:49:02 ◼   ► And you look at the Mac, and it's, like, over, the Mac app store.

01:49:05 ◼   ► How many of you are making a killing in a Mac app store?

01:49:08 ◼   ► Not even the Amazon guy, I was like, right?

01:49:10 ◼   ► Oh, remember the Amazon guy?

01:49:13 ◼   ► Oh, we're going to find him.

01:49:14 ◼   ► Oh, I'm good.

01:49:14 ◼   ► This is going long, so it's higher now, so you can't run fast.

01:49:17 ◼   ► We have his workout buddy.

01:49:19 ◼   ► Oh, no.

01:49:20 ◼   ► It's like, you're going pretty slow.

01:49:23 ◼   ► Like, Electron is, like, it has taken over the Mac in a real way.

01:49:30 ◼   ► Like, I use Notion Calendar.

01:49:30 ◼   ► That's, like, a beautiful Mac-asked Mac app.

01:49:33 ◼   ► It is an Electron app, and that is the thing that I, they cannot allow that to break the

01:49:38 ◼   ► iPad, and I think that's, there's going to be a hard wall there until the government or

01:49:42 ◼   ► a judge or someone, John personally, breaks the wall down.

01:49:45 ◼   ► That's going to be the difference.

01:49:48 ◼   ► They called that, did you watch the State of the Union yesterday, or are you off?

01:49:51 ◼   ► They called it out in the State of the Union.

01:49:53 ◼   ► I might be paraphrasing slightly, but it was a line like, please stop making Electron apps.

01:49:59 ◼   ► Wait, really?

01:49:59 ◼   ► Yes.

01:50:00 ◼   ► Did everybody else?

01:50:01 ◼   ► I'm not imagining this, right?

01:50:02 ◼   ► There was, it actually, yeah.

01:50:04 ◼   ► That's crazy.

01:50:04 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:50:05 ◼   ► You know, along the lines of, you know, we've got these great tools that will, you know,

01:50:10 ◼   ► that do so much more and give such a better experience, which I think is true, but I do think

01:50:17 ◼   ► that does factor into it, you know, that the iPad is this protected space where they

01:50:21 ◼   ► know it's only going, and you know, this.

01:50:24 ◼   ► Do they pair that up with like, and we're lowering the take rate in the app store?

01:50:28 ◼   ► They didn't.

01:50:30 ◼   ► Right?

01:50:31 ◼   ► Like, this is the problem.

01:50:32 ◼   ► Like, you can deploy an Electron app for free and get a lot of distribution for free.

01:50:36 ◼   ► Right.

01:50:36 ◼   ► And what Apple should be saying is, we will give you a lot of distribution for free if

01:50:40 ◼   ► you play by our rules, use our platform, and that will be economically viable forever.

01:50:43 ◼   ► And they, I didn't hear any of that here at the State of the State.

01:50:46 ◼   ► Well, and so many developers who might want to make native iPad and Mac apps for their

01:50:54 ◼   ► company, you know, it's just the nature of how companies work, where you've got to sell

01:50:59 ◼   ► it to somebody who's above you, who's not a developer.

01:51:02 ◼   ► And when one of the alternate plans is, well, we'll just make a web app, and then you spit

01:51:08 ◼   ► out an Electron app, and it runs everywhere, and there's only one code base and one team,

01:51:13 ◼   ► and we can hire people who know how to write React JavaScript apps anywhere, and it costs

01:51:19 ◼   ► more to get people who are experts in Swift UI, and they're like, well, I'll go that way.

01:51:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:51:24 ◼   ► Have you heard of React?

01:51:24 ◼   ► Like, you just see it happen all over the place.

01:51:27 ◼   ► And I think, like, they can make the iPad.

01:51:29 ◼   ► They can finally give in.

01:51:31 ◼   ► They can give you what you want.

01:51:33 ◼   ► It cannot allow that to happen to the iPad, because that's what will break the app model,

01:51:37 ◼   ► it will break the store model, and it will just collapse it into being a Mac, because the

01:51:41 ◼   ► applications will actually end up being the same as Mac.

01:51:43 ◼   ► And one of the little details I learned today, and it makes sense, is that this new export

01:51:48 ◼   ► API, so like when a video app exports a very long process, it runs in the background on iPad,

01:51:56 ◼   ► it can run as long as it takes until it finishes.

01:51:59 ◼   ► But to access that API, you have to do two things.

01:52:03 ◼   ► It has to be a task that has a completion.

01:52:06 ◼   ► You can't just have an open-ended task that is, like, continuously polling forever.

01:52:12 ◼   ► You can't just run something in the background forever.

01:52:14 ◼   ► It has to be a task that has a, or in user interface parlance, it has to have a progress bar with

01:52:21 ◼   ► an end, not one of those spinners that's like, oh, you know, maybe forever.

01:52:24 ◼   ► And the other thing is it has to be user-initiated.

01:52:29 ◼   ► So it has to be something where the user says, take this, export, go, and then it'll go.

01:52:35 ◼   ► So the app can't just on its own while you're doing this say, ah, I'll run a background task

01:52:39 ◼   ► and update, you know, blah, blah, blah in the background.

01:52:43 ◼   ► And it doesn't work like that.

01:52:45 ◼   ► But part of that reason why is that you can run into a situation on the Mac, because the

01:52:50 ◼   ► Mac's the Mac, where you've installed stuff, all sorts of stuff is going on in the background

01:52:54 ◼   ► that you don't know is going on, because most people out there don't run activity monitor

01:52:59 ◼   ► and look for, you know, CPU usage.

01:53:02 ◼   ► You don't, it's impossible on iPad, and it's part of the selling point, and I think that's

01:53:06 ◼   ► why you're going to be forever unhappy.

01:53:08 ◼   ► Thank you.

01:53:13 ◼   ► They also, in the other half of the, finally, you know, and they got this right in 1984,

01:53:19 ◼   ► really, I've been playing around in that classic Mac emulator on the web, Infinite Mac, I think

01:53:26 ◼   ► it's called.

01:53:27 ◼   ► And it's like, yeah, they really did nail the finder in 1984.

01:53:32 ◼   ► By the way, it did not take like a global regulatory crackdown to ship a Mac emulator on the web.

01:53:38 ◼   ► No.

01:53:39 ◼   ► Right, this is, like, this is what I mean.

01:53:41 ◼   ► Like, the web is this huge escape hatch of applications that breaks the App Store model.

01:53:45 ◼   ► Right.

01:53:46 ◼   ► And that is what, it's what, it's why the Mac thrives, and I think it's also what's holding

01:53:52 ◼   ► the iPad back in just the realist of ways.

01:53:54 ◼   ► But the Files app is actually, seems like, actually useful now.