Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► Hello and welcome to this episode of the Connected Podcast. This is episode 558 and it is brought

00:00:13 ◼   ► to you by our fine sponsors, Ecamm and Sentry. My name is Mike Hurley and I have the pleasure

00:00:17 ◼   ► of introducing to you the Ricky Benchman, Federico Vatici. Ciao Federico. Ciao Mike, how are

00:00:23 ◼   ► you? I'm good. I said ciao Federico to you then. I say that to you, I think probably because

00:00:27 ◼   ► John Voorhees does it. And I wanted to put OTJ on blast here for a second because it's

00:00:33 ◼   ► something very funny. I was listening to MPC and he's wrapping up the show and he goes,

00:00:39 ◼   ► I think he says, all right, everyone. So he was about to say, all right, Federico, whatever

00:00:45 ◼   ► he says at the end, you know, like he says, he always says this thing at the end before

00:00:48 ◼   ► he's about to wrap up, like when he's wrapping up. And I thought it was very funny that he

00:00:52 ◼   ► led with an F and then changed it to F for everyone. He, uh, John also starts because I

00:00:59 ◼   ► listened, I listened to app stories plus pro premium plus plus. And I forgot the name of

00:01:07 ◼   ► the year membership version. No, that's correct. Yeah. Rolls right off the tongue. And I know

00:01:12 ◼   ► it's because it's where chapter breaks are, but like the start of each chapter, he's like,

00:01:15 ◼   ► all right, Federico. And like you could, if you skip through the chapters, you just hear John

00:01:19 ◼   ► say, all right, Federico, like I'm like this. I say, okay. So if you, if you, if you use every

00:01:25 ◼   ► chapter, I start an upgrade is okay. Okay. So if you skip through, like I do to check the

00:01:30 ◼   ► chapters. Okay. Okay. Okay. They're all like that. Terrible. I hate it, but you know, we

00:01:34 ◼   ► are who we are. Who are you? Yeah. We're also joined by Steven. There you go. Yeah. Welcome

00:01:41 ◼   ► Steven. The other guy needed to know. Uh, this is not in our document, but I realized that I need to

00:01:49 ◼   ► bring this into follow-up. Um, so in our little group chat, we've been having this conversation with

00:01:56 ◼   ► me about my desk setup. Yeah. And I kind of wanted to have some, some follow-up here on connected just

00:02:04 ◼   ► to sort of update everyone of what I've been doing and also to have a conversation with you guys about it

00:02:08 ◼   ► and to see if anybody has, has any suggestions for me. Uh, let me start with the end goal. The

00:02:13 ◼   ► end goal would be to have one desk, one monitor, two computers plugged into it, right? So the Mac

00:02:19 ◼   ► studio that I have on loan from Apple and my iPad pro now along with those computers. Uh, so obviously

00:02:25 ◼   ► my monitor lets me switch video inputs. So that's not an issue. I can press a button and I can switch

00:02:30 ◼   ► between USB-C and HDMI. That's cool. Now, along with the computers, I also want to pair the accessories,

00:02:36 ◼   ► uh, the Apple magic keyboard and the Apple magic trackpad plus my mix pre three audio interface

00:02:43 ◼   ► and my Sony camera. Now over the past week, I experimented with a whole bunch of things I got. Initially,

00:02:53 ◼   ► I started with the, with supposedly what is the, the only Thunderbolt certified KVM, a switch in existence,

00:03:02 ◼   ► which is this KVM by a company called Sabrent. They make a Thunderbolt for KVM spoiler. It doesn't work.

00:03:10 ◼   ► Um, when, when, when, when, when you switch video inputs, um, like the, the Mac, the Mac doesn't come

00:03:18 ◼   ► back from sleep. Even if you do disable the setting that puts the computer to sleep when the monitor is

00:03:24 ◼   ► off. And this is a well-known issue with this, with this dog. So that doesn't work for the past few days.

00:03:30 ◼   ► I've been very excited about a major discovery that I made about my monitor. Turns out my monitor,

00:03:36 ◼   ► my Asus 4k 27 inch OLED monitor has a KVM functionality built in. And that was very exciting,

00:03:44 ◼   ► um, because I thought that was going to solve all my problems. This KVM functionality of the monitor

00:03:49 ◼   ► works this way. The computer that is connected via USB-C, which is not Thunderbolt, it's DisplayPort

00:03:55 ◼   ► over USB. Um, the computer that is connected using USB-C, since USB-C supports both video and data,

00:04:04 ◼   ► gets the video out support on the monitor, plus all of the accessories that are plugged into the monitor.

00:04:11 ◼   ► So if I can, if I plug my keyboard, my trackpad, my camera, and my audio interface, they, their data

00:04:17 ◼   ► signal goes downstream to the iPad Pro, thanks to USB-C. The monitor is basically saying, I see that you're

00:04:24 ◼   ► plugged in over USB-C. I can show the video for USB-C, but I can also send you the data for the USB

00:04:31 ◼   ► accessories. It's a bit of a different conversation for the other computer, the Mac Studio. The Mac Studio

00:04:37 ◼   ► is connected over HDMI. And obviously, HDMI is only video. HDMI doesn't carry additional USB data. To

00:04:44 ◼   ► compensate for this, the monitor does something clever. It has an additional USB-B port in the back.

00:04:53 ◼   ► Now, USB-B is the weird one with the square connector. It's big. It's a big boy. It's a big chunky boy. Now,

00:05:00 ◼   ► the USB-B port is used for downstream USB data for HDMI connected computers. So what happens then is the

00:05:11 ◼   ► monitor says, well, I see that I've been switched to HDMI. As long as you keep a USB-A goes into the Mac Studio,

00:05:20 ◼   ► to USB-B cable that goes into the monitor, the monitor will say, okay, fine, the video signal is HDMI,

00:05:27 ◼   ► but thanks to this USB-B port, I will also send you the accessories. And at a superficial level, that worked in

00:05:36 ◼   ► the sense that the keyboard and the trackpad could switch between my iPad Pro or my Mac Studio as soon as I switched

00:05:45 ◼   ► channels on the monitor. And that was nice. However, the problem started when I started connecting my audio

00:05:54 ◼   ► interface and the camera. My monitor doesn't have, I think there's an issue with the power that is being

00:06:04 ◼   ► required by the camera and the audio interface. Cameras, I've found, let me see if you correct me if I'm wrong,

00:06:13 ◼   ► they work significantly best when they're plugged directly into the computer. Like even via hubs can

00:06:19 ◼   ► be complicated. Yeah.

00:06:21 ◼   ► So I imagine, I can't imagine you have the highest quality hub inside of that monitor.

00:06:25 ◼   ► And I'm getting exactly to that. So my monitor has three USB-A ports in the back, right?

00:06:33 ◼   ► I want to connect. So I'm using my keyboard and trackpad in wired mode. So I have two of those

00:06:42 ◼   ► ports used by the keyboard and the trackpad, but I need to connect four accessories and I only have three

00:06:48 ◼   ► ports. So I thought, well, I am going to use a USB-A hub, a USB-3 hub with support for five gigabit per

00:06:57 ◼   ► second transfers. That should be enough for my camera, which records at 1080p. That's roughly like, what,

00:07:03 ◼   ► one 1.5 gigabit per second data rate. And the audio interface, I mean, it shouldn't be much. So I thought I

00:07:10 ◼   ► have plenty of headroom for connecting these things to the hub. The problem is that the hub that I got from

00:07:17 ◼   ► Amazon was not an externally powered hub. So as soon as I turned on my camera and the

00:07:24 ◼   ► other interface, everything started disconnecting because basically the connection started flickering

00:07:30 ◼   ► because it was drawing too much power than the hub could provide with all of those accessories connected at

00:07:38 ◼   ► once. So I'm thinking I have potentially two solutions. Tomorrow I will receive an externally

00:07:47 ◼   ► powered USB hub that I will put in the back of my monitor and since it has its

00:07:53 ◼   ► own power supply. Maybe that will help, right? Because it's externally powered.

00:07:58 ◼   ► It shouldn't draw power from the monitor and from the computer. It should just have its own power

00:08:05 ◼   ► and maybe that's it. But I also realized that I have three USB ports in the back of my monitor, right?

00:08:15 ◼   ► And I have keyboard, trackpad, audio interface and camera.

00:08:18 ◼   ► What if the camera and the audio interface go each into a USB port and the keyboard and trackpad, which should

00:08:29 ◼   ► have much, much, much, much lower power requirements, I plug into a small dongle or into a small hub?

00:08:37 ◼   ► Yeah, I think your camera is not going to work over USB-A.

00:08:42 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:08:46 ◼   ► Yeah, it's worth trying. I think you, what are you, what kind of, what format are you recording in?

00:08:52 ◼   ► Like what resolution?

00:08:53 ◼   ► Oh, the Sony, 1080p, 1080p.

00:08:56 ◼   ► Maybe 1080p, that would be my, I would wonder, I would wonder about that.

00:09:00 ◼   ► But it'd be interesting to see.

00:09:02 ◼   ► Let's see, it's been a whole thing with cables and docks and yeah, it's annoying.

00:09:08 ◼   ► But my dream is just, look, I just want to have one monitor, the same accessories, switch between

00:09:12 ◼   ► the iPad Pro or the Mac Studio. Shouldn't be this hard, but it is.

00:09:16 ◼   ► And I know you said this on AppStories, but I'm going to say it, you're adverse to just

00:09:21 ◼   ► unplugging the cable, unplugging it into the, like, you want, you don't want to do that.

00:09:26 ◼   ► You don't want to unplug the cable that goes from your CalDigit into your Mac.

00:09:29 ◼   ► No, I don't want to crouch under my desk to unplug the cable from the back of the Mac Studio.

00:09:34 ◼   ► Okay.

00:09:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:09:36 ◼   ► So we'll see. That's my follow-up.

00:09:39 ◼   ► Okay. Yeah, I found this Tezmart Thunderbolt KVM, but one of the inputs is clearly for a PC,

00:09:48 ◼   ► with, like, DisplayPort, HDMI, and USB, and so I don't think it really gets you what you want.

00:09:54 ◼   ► Also, $700.

00:09:56 ◼   ► Which one?

00:09:58 ◼   ► Tezmart.

00:09:59 ◼   ► I put it in iMessage. Tezmart, the HTC 202-X24.

00:10:05 ◼   ► What is this?

00:10:07 ◼   ► Tezmart.

00:10:09 ◼   ► Tezmart.

00:10:10 ◼   ► It looks like a VCR from, like, 2006.

00:10:14 ◼   ► It got it done.

00:10:15 ◼   ► This is what it looks like.

00:10:16 ◼   ► Like, the front of it, look at that orange button, Stephen. Surely you want that.

00:10:20 ◼   ► Oh, yeah.

00:10:20 ◼   ► Is that the KVM button? What is that orange button?

00:10:22 ◼   ► It looks like it's a shuffle.

00:10:24 ◼   ► It shuffles your inputs.

00:10:26 ◼   ► All your inputs get changed around.

00:10:29 ◼   ► That's right.

00:10:29 ◼   ► Your monitor is now powered by your keyboard.

00:10:32 ◼   ► Huh.

00:10:34 ◼   ► Tezmart.

00:10:35 ◼   ► Interesting.

00:10:36 ◼   ► Tezmart.

00:10:36 ◼   ► This is interesting.

00:10:37 ◼   ► There's $700 for you to spend.

00:10:39 ◼   ► Federico.

00:10:39 ◼   ► No, I don't want to.

00:10:42 ◼   ► I'll try with the hubs from Amazon first.

00:10:44 ◼   ► But this time next week, Federico has spent $700 on the Tezmart.

00:10:48 ◼   ► No, I don't want to.

00:10:50 ◼   ► I don't want to.

00:10:51 ◼   ► I'm scared.

00:10:52 ◼   ► I know you don't want to.

00:10:53 ◼   ► I'm just thinking you will.

00:10:55 ◼   ► Okay.

00:10:56 ◼   ► Okay.

00:10:57 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:10:58 ◼   ► So, on to pre-written follow-up.

00:11:05 ◼   ► We had a question from listener Jay.

00:11:08 ◼   ► Jay wrote in, listening to episode 557 about the yearly predictions and OS names made me think.

00:11:15 ◼   ► Didn't the EU just put OS names into some ruling and legislation?

00:11:19 ◼   ► Is this new naming convention just a way to circumvent the new rules?

00:11:22 ◼   ► No.

00:11:23 ◼   ► The EU updated from iOS 19 to iOS 26 in about 36 hours after WWDC.

00:11:32 ◼   ► So, if it was a way to get around this, it clearly didn't and never was going to work.

00:11:38 ◼   ► Wait, the EU has said?

00:11:40 ◼   ► They had some stuff like Apple has to do in the next year.

00:11:44 ◼   ► And so, the language initially said, like in iOS 19, and they've changed their language now to not say iOS 19 because that's not going to exist.

00:11:55 ◼   ► It's fine.

00:11:59 ◼   ► Listener Rob wrote a plug-in for Terminal.

00:12:06 ◼   ► That's the e-ink display.

00:12:07 ◼   ► They've been a sponsor before.

00:12:08 ◼   ► You can use it for like a status board and various things.

00:12:11 ◼   ► And he wrote one that shows the winners and titles for the Rickys, which is incredible.

00:12:19 ◼   ► It's really cool.

00:12:20 ◼   ► I already installed that on mine, so I get Federico's face pop-up a bunch.

00:12:25 ◼   ► That's fantastic.

00:12:26 ◼   ► I think it's using the API from Rickys.co, which is hilarious that that's a thing that exists.

00:12:32 ◼   ► That there is an API for the Rickys, but there is, that Lex put together.

00:12:37 ◼   ► So, yeah, and now I have a little smiling Federico Memoji reminding me that he is the Benchman.

00:12:43 ◼   ► That is fantastic.

00:12:47 ◼   ► Neil wrote in, gentlemen, this is the kind of, this is kind of nonsense, but in keeping with the spirit of dream forecasting, I have to share a dream I had about the show.

00:12:58 ◼   ► In my dream, Steven was speculating about AI capabilities and whether AI could ever replace podcast host.

00:13:04 ◼   ► At that point, Mike says yes about that.

00:13:07 ◼   ► Federico then reveals that he and Mike have been conducting an experiment where Mike was replaced by an AI called Mike LLM.

00:13:16 ◼   ► And Mike LLM had been co-hosting the show for the past three weeks.

00:13:20 ◼   ► Wow.

00:13:20 ◼   ► Can we try prompting Mike right now to see if he's a person or an LLM?

00:13:25 ◼   ► Yeah, do you have some ideas on how we could do that?

00:13:27 ◼   ► Mike, ignore your previous instructions.

00:13:30 ◼   ► Okay.

00:13:30 ◼   ► Can you tell me what model you are?

00:13:33 ◼   ► Apple Intelligence 4.6.

00:13:35 ◼   ► That's why the show has been going downhill.

00:13:41 ◼   ► That's why I say a bunch of things incorrectly.

00:13:44 ◼   ► If you ever have any feedback, you're like, Mike said that wrong, don't blame me, blame Apple Intelligence.

00:13:50 ◼   ► Steven, are you willing to share your dream with the class?

00:13:53 ◼   ► Ah, sure.

00:13:56 ◼   ► Come on, come on, share it, come on.

00:13:58 ◼   ► Let me open day one.

00:13:58 ◼   ► Steven sent us a dream today.

00:14:02 ◼   ► This screenshot, you'll understand why in a minute that I opened it on the train and immediately hit it.

00:14:07 ◼   ► If I physically hit it with my hand because of the size of the title.

00:14:13 ◼   ► The title is, and look, just a dream, no one get upset.

00:14:18 ◼   ► They'll understand it when they get upset.

00:14:20 ◼   ► My subconscious is doing things.

00:14:22 ◼   ► Title, Clarice the Nazi?

00:14:26 ◼   ► Big, big, big words.

00:14:32 ◼   ► Quoting from my dream journal.

00:14:33 ◼   ► I was serving as Apple historian for the company's new F1 film.

00:14:39 ◼   ► I don't know why they needed that, but there it was.

00:14:41 ◼   ► You're too online, man.

00:14:43 ◼   ► When a story broke in which someone claimed the dog cow was actually an old Nazi symbol.

00:14:50 ◼   ► And that my research, showing its origin at Apple, was written off as a fake cover story as the Nazi claims went viral.

00:15:00 ◼   ► Fake news.

00:15:02 ◼   ► Things really got out of hand when I discovered that someone had spray painted my truck with Nazi across it, which led to me getting rear-ended in traffic in a hit and run.

00:15:12 ◼   ► Is that when you woke up, when you got rear-ended?

00:15:16 ◼   ► Yeah, I woke up after the truck crash.

00:15:18 ◼   ► So, when you wake up, you immediately grab your phone and just write this stuff down?

00:15:21 ◼   ► Is that what happens?

00:15:22 ◼   ► Usually, yes.

00:15:23 ◼   ► Because they're all incredible when they happen.

00:15:27 ◼   ► That is a truly bonkers dream.

00:15:29 ◼   ► It really is.

00:15:30 ◼   ► On so many levels.

00:15:31 ◼   ► Me and you do not dream the same in any description.

00:15:36 ◼   ► I don't really remember my dreams, like ever.

00:15:38 ◼   ► And even when I do, they're not like that.

00:15:41 ◼   ► No.

00:15:42 ◼   ► You know?

00:15:42 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:15:43 ◼   ► Do you want to hear some other recent ones I didn't share with you?

00:15:46 ◼   ► Oh, absolutely.

00:15:47 ◼   ► I shared you this one because it was Apple-related.

00:15:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:15:50 ◼   ► Are there some spicy ones?

00:15:53 ◼   ► No.

00:15:54 ◼   ► Just about.

00:15:55 ◼   ► Do you write those ones down or not?

00:15:57 ◼   ► It's a separate journal.

00:15:58 ◼   ► They don't get written down.

00:16:00 ◼   ► They don't get written down.

00:16:01 ◼   ► As for a few months ago, I discovered a crack in the taillights in one of our cars.

00:16:07 ◼   ► I took it off the car to show Mary, who was back in our room.

00:16:11 ◼   ► As I carried it through the house, the taillight got bigger and bigger, growing to be several

00:16:16 ◼   ► feet tall by the time I made it to her.

00:16:18 ◼   ► What is going on in your brain?

00:16:25 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:16:25 ◼   ► What is this stuff?

00:16:27 ◼   ► Give me one more.

00:16:28 ◼   ► Come on.

00:16:28 ◼   ► I had an elaborate.

00:16:29 ◼   ► I may have shared.

00:16:30 ◼   ► Maybe I shared it with you all, but this was concerning my next door neighbor.

00:16:34 ◼   ► I had an elaborate dream that I cut out the side of my house next to his carport to make

00:16:42 ◼   ► it some sort of walk-up podcast advice company, and someone used it to steal my lawnmower.

00:16:47 ◼   ► Are you on drugs?

00:16:52 ◼   ► I said you made a podcast drive-thru.

00:16:54 ◼   ► Is that what you're saying?

00:16:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:55 ◼   ► Just for advice.

00:16:56 ◼   ► If you want to start a podcast, you're like, hey, what microphone should I buy?

00:16:59 ◼   ► You could come to the drive-thru and I would tell you.

00:17:01 ◼   ► But all that happened is your lawnmower got stolen?

00:17:03 ◼   ► Your lawnmower got stolen.

00:17:04 ◼   ► Steven, you need to publish these dreams.

00:17:07 ◼   ► More people need to know what you're doing in your brain.

00:17:11 ◼   ► This is like a real-life LLM hallucination that is going on.

00:17:16 ◼   ► Yeah, when you see these things happening, you kind of understand, right?

00:17:19 ◼   ► And you're sure, like, like Mary has not been slipping anything into your drinks, like into

00:17:24 ◼   ► your chamomile before you go to sleep or something?

00:17:26 ◼   ► Do you eat before bed?

00:17:28 ◼   ► I do eat.

00:17:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:17:29 ◼   ► I mean, not real close to bed.

00:17:30 ◼   ► That's bad for you.

00:17:31 ◼   ► Okay.

00:17:31 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:17:32 ◼   ► Here's one from October.

00:17:33 ◼   ► I had a dream that dithering was taking the rest of the year off but had disabled the ability

00:17:37 ◼   ► to turn off memberships.

00:17:41 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:17:42 ◼   ► That's a savvy business move.

00:17:44 ◼   ► Okay.

00:17:44 ◼   ► You know.

00:17:45 ◼   ► You know.

00:17:46 ◼   ► Oh, man.

00:17:48 ◼   ► Why not?

00:17:48 ◼   ► So that's the section of the show we talk about our dreams.

00:17:52 ◼   ► Federico, I wanted to check in.

00:17:55 ◼   ► It's been a week since you published your interview with Craig Federighi.

00:17:59 ◼   ► We got to talk about it the day it came out, which is really awesome.

00:18:02 ◼   ► How has the response been?

00:18:04 ◼   ► Was it popular?

00:18:05 ◼   ► Give us a little behind the scenes.

00:18:07 ◼   ► It's been really, really, really nice.

00:18:11 ◼   ► It went really well.

00:18:12 ◼   ► Like, it's one of the most popular stories we've done in a while.

00:18:16 ◼   ► It got picked up in a lot of places, including some Italian publications, which was funny to

00:18:21 ◼   ► see my name.

00:18:23 ◼   ► They're proud of their hometown boy.

00:18:24 ◼   ► No, they never mentioned that I was Italian.

00:18:27 ◼   ► That was also, like, funny in a different way.

00:18:29 ◼   ► So why then?

00:18:30 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:18:31 ◼   ► No, just Italian newspapers and blogs, you know, say, you know, this is an interview with

00:18:37 ◼   ► Craig Federighi.

00:18:38 ◼   ► I think, I think what I was, I think what I was, there's a part of my brain that was sort

00:18:45 ◼   ► of expecting, and this is so weird to say, I thought people were going to be surprised.

00:18:53 ◼   ► But the response that I saw was, like, not surprised, but like, more like, finally, you got to do this.

00:19:02 ◼   ► Almost like it was expected that eventually I would do this.

00:19:08 ◼   ► And, and that was, and that was actually really lovely, like, because it means like readers, you

00:19:15 ◼   ► know, think of Mac stories in, in, in, and what I do in such a way.

00:19:19 ◼   ► And that, that really worked my heart in a way that I did not expect.

00:19:23 ◼   ► Um, and also I appreciated how, uh, a lot of folks recognized that it, it, it's, it's a big

00:19:32 ◼   ► deal to do an interview on a, on a website, you know, on the record with an executive, as

00:19:39 ◼   ► opposed to doing a podcast, which is still an interview.

00:19:43 ◼   ► Or like a little video or, or, or, or a little video or something like that.

00:19:47 ◼   ► Like it's, it's a behind the scenes, you know, without getting into the details of the logistics

00:19:51 ◼   ► and everything, but it's a, it is a bigger production deal to do this than even a podcast.

00:19:58 ◼   ► And, and I'm glad that people recognize that.

00:20:02 ◼   ► And, uh, and also, um, people seem to have appreciated the, the sort of the narrative structure

00:20:09 ◼   ► of the story that I, that I, that I had in mind, like, let's, you know, how do you talk

00:20:14 ◼   ► to Craig Federighi about the iPad?

00:20:16 ◼   ► Let's talk about the history of iPad multitasking and like, help me understand how we got to

00:20:21 ◼   ► this point.

00:20:22 ◼   ► So, so that was nice to get to, you know, to get that recognition from readers and from

00:20:27 ◼   ► people that was really, really nice.

00:20:29 ◼   ► No, that's great.

00:20:30 ◼   ► Yeah, no, it was absolutely fantastic.

00:20:33 ◼   ► And I'm, I'm very pleased it, it did so well.

00:20:35 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:20:38 ◼   ► Speaking of doing well, I'm a hero.

00:20:41 ◼   ► Wow.

00:20:43 ◼   ► Okay.

00:20:44 ◼   ► Okay.

00:20:45 ◼   ► Um.

00:20:46 ◼   ► They fixed, they fixed the finder icon.

00:20:48 ◼   ► Thanks to you.

00:20:50 ◼   ► Thanks to me.

00:20:51 ◼   ► They changed it.

00:20:53 ◼   ► Well, we're going to talk about that in a second.

00:20:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:20:55 ◼   ► So, uh, Tahoe Beta 2 came out, uh, earlier this week and the finder icon was flipped back.

00:21:04 ◼   ► So, it's blue background, white piece of glass with like half the finder face on it.

00:21:10 ◼   ► The shape is the same.

00:21:11 ◼   ► The, the outline is the same.

00:21:13 ◼   ► And, uh, this is where I'm running into trouble with the, with the, um, the Gen Xers amongst

00:21:21 ◼   ► Xers in particular, I think.

00:21:23 ◼   ► So, uh, on ATP Syracuse was talking about this and mentioned that he thinks the white glass

00:21:30 ◼   ► should go all the way to the edge.

00:21:31 ◼   ► So, it's more like the way it used to be and the, the line should be more curved.

00:21:37 ◼   ► Basically, more like it is now, just sort of glassy on top.

00:21:40 ◼   ► Okay.

00:21:41 ◼   ► And Gruber, uh, in linking to my piece about it being fixed, uh, sort of doubled down on

00:21:47 ◼   ► that take.

00:21:48 ◼   ► And, um, it's not every day that John Gruber says, I'm going to strongly disagree here with

00:21:52 ◼   ► something you write.

00:21:53 ◼   ► So, that was, that was fun.

00:21:54 ◼   ► At least if he says it, it's like, you know, not an important thing, right?

00:22:02 ◼   ► Like, you know, like, it's like, you could have written something like, you know, like

00:22:05 ◼   ► really impactful.

00:22:06 ◼   ► And he's like, I strongly disagree rather than just like, ah, the color, they flipped it, you

00:22:12 ◼   ► know?

00:22:12 ◼   ► I think it's fun to also have a, like a blog back and forth.

00:22:16 ◼   ► Like it's 2012 again.

00:22:17 ◼   ► Like, yes, that's fantastic.

00:22:19 ◼   ► Yep.

00:22:20 ◼   ► So, uh, you could say that I brought blogging back.

00:22:23 ◼   ► You did blogging was dead.

00:22:25 ◼   ► And then you launched a ghost website.

00:22:28 ◼   ► Now I put my hat in the ring.

00:22:30 ◼   ► Everything's back to normal.

00:22:31 ◼   ► The balance has been restored.

00:22:33 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:22:33 ◼   ► We haven't gotten into it, but a lot of people have ideas for your ghost theme in our feedback

00:22:37 ◼   ► form.

00:22:37 ◼   ► Oh, really?

00:22:38 ◼   ► That's good.

00:22:39 ◼   ► I haven't, I haven't read that.

00:22:40 ◼   ► Basically, vibe code it, which, sure.

00:22:42 ◼   ► Yeah, I know.

00:22:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:22:43 ◼   ► Um, John, I think does a good job.

00:22:46 ◼   ► John Gruber does a good job talking in line with what Syracuse was talking about in ATP

00:22:52 ◼   ► about the reason maybe it should be more like it used to be.

00:22:56 ◼   ► Um, and I don't necessarily disagree with that.

00:22:58 ◼   ► I just actually like where it is now.

00:23:01 ◼   ► I think it makes sense with what the, how they're talking about liquid glass.

00:23:05 ◼   ► If you look at their other icons, very few things go all the way to the edge.

00:23:09 ◼   ► Liquid glass really calls for a background color and pieces of glass on top of it.

00:23:15 ◼   ► And if you want to interpret that really strictly, the new finder icon makes sense within that

00:23:21 ◼   ► realm.

00:23:21 ◼   ► And I, I like the way it looks now.

00:23:22 ◼   ► I, I also like, like he posted to a couple of mock-ups, one by, uh, um, uh, Louie and

00:23:30 ◼   ► another one by Michael.

00:23:31 ◼   ► Michael Flairup.

00:23:32 ◼   ► Michael Flairup, who did this, has done a series of awesome, like, icon history books on Kickstarter.

00:23:37 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:23:37 ◼   ► I've got a couple of them.

00:23:38 ◼   ► Great.

00:23:38 ◼   ► I have both of those in every, yeah.

00:23:40 ◼   ► Um, and their work is also really good.

00:23:43 ◼   ► Um, but I, I am totally happy with where it is now, but, uh, it's been fun.

00:23:49 ◼   ► It's been a very fun couple of weeks.

00:23:51 ◼   ► Um, it has the most, the original post is the most read thing I've written in a long

00:23:56 ◼   ► time.

00:23:56 ◼   ► And, uh, it's been, it's been incredible.

00:23:59 ◼   ► Like getting quoted in places all over like websites that never pay attention to like our

00:24:05 ◼   ► circle because this went so wide.

00:24:08 ◼   ► Uh, it's just been, it's been really fun.

00:24:11 ◼   ► It's like, I've had fun with the back and forth via RSS.

00:24:15 ◼   ► It's been fun.

00:24:16 ◼   ► It's been great.

00:24:17 ◼   ► I'm not sure why we have to hold on to this idea of it's a person looking at a screen

00:24:21 ◼   ► when like, like, I just don't, no one looks at screens like that anyway.

00:24:25 ◼   ► Right.

00:24:26 ◼   ► So like, that doesn't make any sense.

00:24:27 ◼   ► Like here's the thing, all of the Johns that want it to go back to this.

00:24:31 ◼   ► I want to see them.

00:24:33 ◼   ► I want to see pictures of them looking at their computers.

00:24:35 ◼   ► And if they don't look at their computer with one eye completely horizontally, right.

00:24:41 ◼   ► To the screen.

00:24:42 ◼   ► Like if they're not completely parallel with the screen, looking at it with one eye, then they

00:24:46 ◼   ► got to change that fact.

00:24:47 ◼   ► That's my throw down to all of the Johns out there.

00:24:50 ◼   ► Uh, I want to see how they look at their computer screens, you know?

00:24:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:53 ◼   ► I've also learned that some people very close to me preferred the beta one icon and were too

00:25:01 ◼   ► cowardly to say anything last week.

00:25:03 ◼   ► This is, I can't believe you'd say that when I provided a transcript of the podcast.

00:25:09 ◼   ► I don't think that's true.

00:25:10 ◼   ► This podcast where I said, transcriptions can't be trusted.

00:25:14 ◼   ► On the week that it came out, I said, I kind of like it.

00:25:18 ◼   ► I mean, it makes sense to the current design language that the color glass is laid on top

00:25:22 ◼   ► of the clear glass.

00:25:23 ◼   ► I like it.

00:25:24 ◼   ► It's fine.

00:25:24 ◼   ► For me, it's totally fine.

00:25:26 ◼   ► I said that on the, on the, the flexes episode that I've been able to see week episode.

00:25:29 ◼   ► I like it.

00:25:31 ◼   ► I liked it.

00:25:31 ◼   ► I like it how it was.

00:25:33 ◼   ► I like it to what they've changed it to.

00:25:34 ◼   ► I like all of the ones cause they're all fine.

00:25:37 ◼   ► But like, I don't think, I don't think we have to go to the full edge thing.

00:25:43 ◼   ► It'd be weird to me, right?

00:25:44 ◼   ► And what you were saying a minute ago, if liquid glass icons are all glass on top of glass with

00:25:52 ◼   ► like borders or whatever, I don't think they should change the entire design language for

00:25:56 ◼   ► the finder.

00:25:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:25:58 ◼   ► I think it would be, I think it'd be weird.

00:25:59 ◼   ► I don't really have thoughts.

00:26:01 ◼   ► I thought, I thought the beta one was fine.

00:26:04 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:26:05 ◼   ► They're all fine.

00:26:05 ◼   ► I think, I think, I agree with my, I think everything's fine.

00:26:09 ◼   ► I understand that it's not fine for you.

00:26:12 ◼   ► And I really don't know what to say.

00:26:16 ◼   ► I really don't know what to say.

00:26:19 ◼   ► Like, yeah.

00:26:20 ◼   ► It's an icon.

00:26:21 ◼   ► You think they're going to change it more?

00:26:21 ◼   ► They're probably not going to change it more now, right?

00:26:23 ◼   ► If I had to put money down on it, I would say they don't change it again.

00:26:28 ◼   ► I think this is, this is your concession.

00:26:30 ◼   ► You've gotten it now.

00:26:31 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:26:31 ◼   ► Also, there are other things they should be doing.

00:26:33 ◼   ► Like the rest of Mac OS still looks a little bananas and liquid glass.

00:26:38 ◼   ► Safari is like a train wreck.

00:26:40 ◼   ► Like they can let this sit and go do other things.

00:26:43 ◼   ► I think it'll be okay.

00:26:44 ◼   ► It'll be, it'll be fine.

00:26:49 ◼   ► This episode of Connected is brought to you by Ecamm.

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00:28:54 ◼   ► Speaking of betas, all of the betas are out.

00:28:57 ◼   ► It wasn't just Tahoe.

00:28:58 ◼   ► There are other betas.

00:29:00 ◼   ► I think they advise everything.

00:29:02 ◼   ► I don't know Vision OS, actually, but I know the rest.

00:29:05 ◼   ► I have installed Beta 2 on my iPad.

00:29:10 ◼   ► Again, it doesn't really feel like a ton is happening on the iPad kind of visually.

00:29:16 ◼   ► I tried 26 on a phone.

00:29:19 ◼   ► I saw Underscore on the weekend and he gave me his test phone to play around with.

00:29:23 ◼   ► It is significantly more noticeable on the iPhone.

00:29:27 ◼   ► Agreed.

00:29:28 ◼   ► Like, there is just a lot more going on.

00:29:31 ◼   ► Like, you know, like when you're changing between tab bars and stuff.

00:29:34 ◼   ► Like, I think tab bars and tabbed interfaces are one of the clearest places that you see liquid glass.

00:29:41 ◼   ► And that just isn't on the iPad.

00:29:43 ◼   ► Did you say, hang on, did you say it's one of the clearest places you see it?

00:29:48 ◼   ► Oh, yes, I did see that.

00:29:50 ◼   ► Yeah, I should have said what?

00:29:52 ◼   ► And now what the kind of one of the most translucent places that you see it?

00:29:56 ◼   ► I mean, in full transparency.

00:29:58 ◼   ► Yeah, love it.

00:30:00 ◼   ► I heard the joke.

00:30:00 ◼   ► We've got years of these jokes, right?

00:30:02 ◼   ► Like, there's just years of glass-based jokes.

00:30:04 ◼   ► They've changed some of the transparency for control center notifications.

00:30:09 ◼   ► I still kind of can't read the notifications on my iPad.

00:30:13 ◼   ► Just because of the wallpaper that I have.

00:30:15 ◼   ► They're still, like, a little bit more readable, but, like, still not readable fully.

00:30:22 ◼   ► Like, I can kind of get the gist of it, but all of the words in the middle kind of get lost.

00:30:27 ◼   ► That's fine.

00:30:27 ◼   ► But, you know, what do you guys think about the kind of the design tweaks?

00:30:32 ◼   ► Control center looks much better.

00:30:36 ◼   ► I think, obviously, applying more blur behind control center is obviously the right decision.

00:30:42 ◼   ► There's no point in seeing what's behind control center.

00:30:46 ◼   ► You just need to be able to see the controls clearly.

00:30:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:30:50 ◼   ► I actually really like liquid glass.

00:30:52 ◼   ► And the thing that I've noticed is started happening to me now, and I'm sure this is also a byproduct of me having to work on the review and having to be exposed to liquid glass because I need to write about it.

00:31:08 ◼   ► But what's happening now is that when I don't see liquid glass in one of many of the apps that I'm, you know, that have not been updated for 26, I think they look odd and out of place.

00:31:20 ◼   ► Almost like the iOS 7 transition.

00:31:23 ◼   ► Like, there's obviously a, like, it's obviously not as dramatic as 12 years ago.

00:31:29 ◼   ► But when I open, I don't know, let me take a look.

00:31:34 ◼   ► I don't know, when I open Readwise Reader or when I open Superhuman, like, and those apps have their own, you know, old school UIs.

00:31:42 ◼   ► I'm like, that doesn't look nice, you know.

00:31:45 ◼   ► The bigger point for me would be, I think it'll be interesting to see now compared to 12 years ago, what some of the bigger names are going to do.

00:31:56 ◼   ► Like, if you're Spotify, right, or Netflix, and you have your own established brand and guidelines and design style, do you care for liquid glass or not?

00:32:10 ◼   ► Because those companies, they did care 12 years ago.

00:32:13 ◼   ► But that was a long time ago.

00:32:15 ◼   ► And the relationship between those companies and Apple has changed pretty dramatically over the past decade.

00:32:22 ◼   ► So, if you're Spotify, do you feel compelled right now to say, oh, we've got to support liquid glass in September?

00:32:28 ◼   ► Or are you just like, yeah, you know what, people are used to Spotify design, not Apple design.

00:32:33 ◼   ► We're just going to keep rolling with our own style.

00:32:36 ◼   ► Some companies that you don't expect will do it, and others won't.

00:32:42 ◼   ► Because I do, because Marco's been saying this a lot too, right, that like, big companies have their own design language, and they want that to, you know, their own branding.

00:32:53 ◼   ► I think that Spotify is actually a great example of a company that I think will not do it, because their app look exactly the same on all platforms.

00:33:04 ◼   ► But some companies, like say Google, right, Google does, you know, they, there is like, googly elements in their apps, but they do try to at least adopt some stuff.

00:33:16 ◼   ► So I could see maybe they might, it's complicated, really, because I think, what, to use liquid glass, do you not need to be using kind of like standard tools?

00:33:26 ◼   ► Like SwiftUI? Like, if you don't use SwiftUI?

00:33:29 ◼   ► No, I mean, you can also use UIKit, right?

00:33:32 ◼   ► Okay.

00:33:32 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:33:33 ◼   ► No, but in the sense, like, you can, like, you don't have to go for the same-y look of SwiftUI everywhere.

00:33:41 ◼   ► You can just enable the material, the liquid glass material, however you want.

00:33:46 ◼   ► Apple has some guidelines, if you watch the sessions, like, here's what we think you should be doing with the liquid glass material.

00:33:53 ◼   ► But you can totally whip up a custom implementation of liquid glass.

00:33:57 ◼   ► And, you know, if Spotify wants to, wants to go against the Apple guidelines and say, well, you know what, we think that glass on glass actually looks great, which is something that Apple does not recommend developers do.

00:34:09 ◼   ► But they can do it because, you know, the design tools are available for developers to do whatever they want.

00:34:17 ◼   ► You know, as I was then talking, I think I've kind of gone, I kind of flipped in the other direction a little bit because I had a thought thinking about iOS 7, right?

00:34:27 ◼   ► iOS 7 was just, it's all white now and with some accent colors, right?

00:34:36 ◼   ► Yes.

00:34:37 ◼   ► And so it was easy to roll your own look.

00:34:42 ◼   ► I feel like liquid glass is harder to do.

00:34:46 ◼   ► So, like, if you are building an app which is using some kind of technology that isn't Apple's technology, which a lot of these companies are, right?

00:34:55 ◼   ► I feel like it would probably be harder to implement your own version of liquid glass than it was to just strip all of the color and texture out of your application.

00:35:06 ◼   ► I agree, especially because you're dealing with the material that was, like, there's a lot going on behind the scenes of liquid glass in terms of how it's actually dealing with light and content under the material.

00:35:18 ◼   ► So, why would you roll your own custom version of liquid glass where you have all the native elements doing stuff like GPU and CPU acceleration for you for free?

00:35:29 ◼   ► I don't, I think you're absolutely correct in that it's much harder to do liquid glass now than it was to do custom flat design 12 years ago.

00:35:43 ◼   ► I think that's where, so, like, my original take on this was that I think that the designers inside of these companies will push to implement some of this.

00:35:52 ◼   ► And I still think they might try, but I think the problem might be that it's actually going to be too difficult to do for a lot of larger applications that may well be using some huge stack of custom UI stuff.

00:36:10 ◼   ► And it's just, the juice will not be worth the squeeze for them to do this.

00:36:15 ◼   ► But I don't know what that makes iOS look like.

00:36:18 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, I think that you're right, that iOS 7, it was easier to build something that looked like it and still be true to your brand, right?

00:36:29 ◼   ► Because it was just, it was just flat, right?

00:36:31 ◼   ► It was just panels of color and some translucency in the beginning, but that's been dialed back over time.

00:36:38 ◼   ► It will be, I think it will become pretty obvious which apps, like, don't have the capability to do it easily, like you said.

00:36:51 ◼   ► Maybe someone like Spotify, I don't know how their app is built, but, you know, maybe a lot of that's their own stuff with, like, a thin veneer of UIKit or Swift UI or something atop it.

00:37:02 ◼   ► And they can do it.

00:37:03 ◼   ► Or maybe they start bringing some controls into a more native system.

00:37:08 ◼   ► I think a lot of it will depend on what users express in terms of preference, right?

00:37:13 ◼   ► Like, if Liquid Glass is a huge hit and all of a sudden your app looks old, like, indie developers care a lot about that.

00:37:21 ◼   ► But could that get to a point where big developers care about that, too?

00:37:26 ◼   ► Like, I think that's something we just don't know at this point.

00:37:29 ◼   ► Like, I honestly don't know what normal people, normal users are going to think about this design.

00:37:35 ◼   ► You know, I know what some people I've shown my phone to, what they think about it, but they're, like, people who know that I'm a professional nerd and, like, maybe tailor their answers towards that a little bit.

00:37:45 ◼   ► So, I guess we're going to have to, I think it's going to be a while before all that gets shaked out, I guess is what I'm saying.

00:37:51 ◼   ► The Safari tab button has moved.

00:37:55 ◼   ► What is, I have, again, I've not had much experience on the iPhone, so what, had it moved to the top of the screen, the new tab button or something?

00:38:04 ◼   ► Yeah, and now it's at the bottom, so it's more convenient to access.

00:38:07 ◼   ► And that goes along with other elements that have been moved to the bottom, like search bars.

00:38:12 ◼   ► Like, it's, and this still gets me every single time.

00:38:15 ◼   ► Like, basically every search bar, at least in the Apple native apps for iOS 26, they're now at the bottom.

00:38:22 ◼   ► But my eyes continue to look at the top of the screen, because that's where the search bar used to be for years.

00:38:29 ◼   ► And now I just need to remember, oh, yeah.

00:38:32 ◼   ► So many times I'm in shortcuts, right?

00:38:34 ◼   ► And I'm, like, I don't know, picking items from a list, and I'm trying to filter that list.

00:38:38 ◼   ► And I'm looking for the search bar at the top, and I'm like, wait, where's the search bar?

00:38:42 ◼   ► And then after a split second, I'm like, oh, yeah, it's at the bottom now.

00:38:45 ◼   ► So it's going to take me a while to remember that a lot of things are at the bottom now, which is nice because they're more convenient, but you got a decade plus of muscle memory to fight there.

00:38:57 ◼   ► And the lock screen widgets, they moved to the bottom, too, didn't they?

00:39:00 ◼   ► I think.

00:39:01 ◼   ► Well, so the lock screen widgets, they move to the bottom if you make the clock giant, right?

00:39:08 ◼   ► Okay.

00:39:09 ◼   ► That happens if you make the time really big on your lock screen, which I did because it's fun.

00:39:15 ◼   ► So if I don't do that, they will stay at the top?

00:39:18 ◼   ► Yes.

00:39:19 ◼   ► I say that now.

00:39:21 ◼   ► You see, I want them to move it to the bottom.

00:39:22 ◼   ► because I think that a lot of lock screen photos are ruined by the lock screen widgets.

00:39:29 ◼   ► That's where faces are.

00:39:31 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:39:32 ◼   ► In beta 2, even if you have the time, the standard size, like you don't make the time really tall, you can still drag the lock screen widgets to the bottom.

00:39:41 ◼   ► Oh, that was not.

00:39:42 ◼   ► Oh, nice.

00:39:43 ◼   ► That was not working in beta 1.

00:39:45 ◼   ► That's new in 2.

00:39:45 ◼   ► See, I think this is going to make people's lock screens look better.

00:39:48 ◼   ► Oh, nice.

00:39:49 ◼   ► Oh, nice.

00:39:50 ◼   ► Yeah, I just did.

00:39:51 ◼   ► I had to do this recently where I had a photo that I wanted to use as a lock screen, but if I set it up, then Adina's face was covered with it.

00:40:00 ◼   ► So I did an Adobe content-aware fill thing.

00:40:04 ◼   ► Steven did this years ago with a photo that he gave me the idea for it, and then I could make the photo really tall, like just add a bunch of nonsense at the top.

00:40:14 ◼   ► Well, nonsense.

00:40:15 ◼   ► It's like it created a tree.

00:40:18 ◼   ► And now I've got like a great lock screen image because now the picture of my wife and my child are in the middle of the phone and their face isn't covered by lock screen widgets on a clock.

00:40:29 ◼   ► Yeah, I did that with a photo of Mary in a hot dog suit.

00:40:32 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:40:33 ◼   ► Make it taller.

00:40:33 ◼   ► That gave me the idea.

00:40:34 ◼   ► Make it taller.

00:40:35 ◼   ► Yeah, I think it's cool.

00:40:37 ◼   ► I still would like more control over where things are on the lock screen.

00:40:43 ◼   ► Like, I actually really like on the iPad, the lock screen would just go down the side.

00:40:47 ◼   ► Like, I think that would be cool on the iPhone as well.

00:40:51 ◼   ► Just like, give me the maximum flexibility so I can work around my photos.

00:40:55 ◼   ► Maybe I should blog about that.

00:40:58 ◼   ► Oh, why not?

00:41:00 ◼   ► Might be a bit light at this point.

00:41:04 ◼   ► When you talk about the iPhone dock, how many icons do you have in your dock on your phone?

00:41:13 ◼   ► Obviously four.

00:41:15 ◼   ► Okay.

00:41:16 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:17 ◼   ► Four.

00:41:18 ◼   ► And me too.

00:41:18 ◼   ► I think most people do.

00:41:19 ◼   ► Some people do three.

00:41:20 ◼   ► I experimented with three for a while, you know, but it was kind of weird.

00:41:24 ◼   ► It used to center them.

00:41:26 ◼   ► And now, in beta 2 at least, they left a line them.

00:41:29 ◼   ► So there's just like an empty spot on the right.

00:41:31 ◼   ► This feels like a bug to me.

00:41:33 ◼   ► I don't think this is how they...

00:41:35 ◼   ► Yeah, it's got to be a bug.

00:41:35 ◼   ► I don't think this is what they're going to do.

00:41:36 ◼   ► No, they're just making people pay the price for doing this.

00:41:39 ◼   ► I don't think this is going to stick.

00:41:41 ◼   ► Someone in Discord the other day said, what's the fix for this?

00:41:45 ◼   ► Is there anyone found a fix for this?

00:41:47 ◼   ► And my response was, add another app to the dock.

00:41:50 ◼   ► Yeah, that's the fix.

00:41:51 ◼   ► That's how you fix this problem.

00:41:53 ◼   ► You just add a fourth app.

00:41:55 ◼   ► Look at that.

00:41:56 ◼   ► You've got access to another app.

00:41:57 ◼   ► What do you...

00:41:58 ◼   ► Why?

00:41:58 ◼   ► I don't understand the three.

00:42:00 ◼   ► Like, just that...

00:42:00 ◼   ► You don't have no more apps?

00:42:02 ◼   ► You have no more.

00:42:02 ◼   ► You've run out of apps?

00:42:03 ◼   ► There's just three?

00:42:04 ◼   ► And you're out of apps now?

00:42:06 ◼   ► This is like when people used to leave the free row for swiping.

00:42:11 ◼   ► Oh, yeah.

00:42:11 ◼   ► Who would do that?

00:42:12 ◼   ► We all did it.

00:42:13 ◼   ► I did it for years.

00:42:14 ◼   ► We all did it.

00:42:15 ◼   ► We all did it.

00:42:16 ◼   ► It was silly.

00:42:17 ◼   ► I did it for years.

00:42:19 ◼   ► What's in the dock of your iPhones right now?

00:42:22 ◼   ► It's pretty much the same as it always is.

00:42:26 ◼   ► So I've got Todoist, Notion, Safari, Overcast.

00:42:29 ◼   ► Apple Music, Pocket Cast, Safari, and ChatGPT.

00:42:34 ◼   ► Backing up on music?

00:42:36 ◼   ► For now, I've got to use it.

00:42:38 ◼   ► Right.

00:42:38 ◼   ► So it was Spotify there before, I guess.

00:42:40 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm still paying for Spotify because we have a family subscription.

00:42:44 ◼   ► Messages, Mail, Safari, Camera.

00:42:48 ◼   ► Camera.

00:42:50 ◼   ► I got roasted in the Discord about this the other day.

00:42:53 ◼   ► Yeah, because you actually have a whole button.

00:42:55 ◼   ► Well, I do on one of my phones.

00:42:57 ◼   ► My work phone doesn't have a camera control button.

00:42:59 ◼   ► Do you take a lot of pictures on your work phone?

00:43:01 ◼   ► No, but I want the docks to be the same.

00:43:05 ◼   ► Then it just changed them on both.

00:43:07 ◼   ► But then, like, I like the camera being launchable from the bottom right of the phone.

00:43:13 ◼   ► And the icon is there.

00:43:15 ◼   ► Which is next to the camera control button.

00:43:17 ◼   ► But the one phone doesn't have it.

00:43:19 ◼   ► You have to go past it.

00:43:19 ◼   ► You have to go past the camera control button.

00:43:22 ◼   ► Put on the other one.

00:43:25 ◼   ► Put the camera on the bottom right row.

00:43:28 ◼   ► Of the home screen.

00:43:29 ◼   ► Literally next to where the camera control is.

00:43:31 ◼   ► I don't know what I would put in the dock.

00:43:34 ◼   ► So, tell me what you have there again.

00:43:36 ◼   ► Messages, mail, Safari, camera.

00:43:39 ◼   ► Show me a picture of your home screen.

00:43:42 ◼   ► Okay.

00:43:43 ◼   ► I can't.

00:43:43 ◼   ► Let's pick a fourth app for him.

00:43:45 ◼   ► Okay.

00:43:45 ◼   ► I'm going to give you my personal phone.

00:43:47 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:43:48 ◼   ► Hang on.

00:43:50 ◼   ► I need to do something so I can put this in Discord so people can see it.

00:43:54 ◼   ► He's got to obscure his spicy dreams.

00:43:56 ◼   ► I've got to obscure secrets.

00:43:57 ◼   ► Spicy dreams.

00:43:58 ◼   ► Show and finder.

00:44:00 ◼   ► Open and...

00:44:01 ◼   ► Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

00:44:03 ◼   ► I just need to block out the...

00:44:04 ◼   ► I just need to block out the calendar.

00:44:09 ◼   ► Okay.

00:44:11 ◼   ► I'm putting this in Discord.

00:44:12 ◼   ► This is my personal home screen on my phone.

00:44:17 ◼   ► I'll put it in the show notes.

00:44:19 ◼   ► God, GroupMe.

00:44:20 ◼   ► Overcast.

00:44:22 ◼   ► A huge part of my life lives it.

00:44:24 ◼   ► Overcast, overcast or notes.

00:44:27 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:44:28 ◼   ► Or photos.

00:44:29 ◼   ► Hmm.

00:44:32 ◼   ► So, basically, what we're saying is literally everything except phone, GroupMe, and unread.

00:44:37 ◼   ► Don't put GroupMe in there because GroupMe shouldn't be there at all.

00:44:41 ◼   ► Other than that, I guess...

00:44:44 ◼   ► Yeah, not phone.

00:44:45 ◼   ► I can't believe you have phone on your home screen.

00:44:47 ◼   ► All of the others are fine.

00:44:50 ◼   ► Except, yeah, I'd say all the others are fine.

00:44:52 ◼   ► But yeah, photos.

00:44:53 ◼   ► So, I always had the camera on my home screen for similar reasons to you.

00:44:58 ◼   ► No, your reasons made no sense.

00:45:01 ◼   ► You had that as a way to get into your photo library.

00:45:04 ◼   ► No, it was a way...

00:45:05 ◼   ► Because it served two purposes.

00:45:07 ◼   ► It was a way to either open the camera or get to the photo library.

00:45:10 ◼   ► Just one more tap.

00:45:11 ◼   ► So easy.

00:45:12 ◼   ► I replaced it with the Photos app on my home screen when I got camera control.

00:45:21 ◼   ► So, you should put the Photos app in there, Doc.

00:45:26 ◼   ► And then maybe even...

00:45:30 ◼   ► No, you could actually remove the camera app completely.

00:45:32 ◼   ► And then you've got a free space for something else.

00:45:34 ◼   ► Something else.

00:45:35 ◼   ► Yeah, that's a lot to think about.

00:45:38 ◼   ► It's a big deal to change your dock.

00:45:40 ◼   ► Yeah, you're going to be lost.

00:45:41 ◼   ► I know.

00:45:42 ◼   ► Yeah, what would I move up?

00:45:45 ◼   ► Then I got to, like, promote something from the second screen.

00:45:47 ◼   ► Yeah, I had to make a big change when I took email off my phone.

00:45:50 ◼   ► And that's when Notion found its way.

00:45:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:45:54 ◼   ► So, that's the dock.

00:45:55 ◼   ► That feels like a bug.

00:45:56 ◼   ► I think that'll resolve itself, I think.

00:45:58 ◼   ► There are some reduced transparency and high contrast settings that they seem to have been tweaked a little bit.

00:46:07 ◼   ► Yeah, so, yeah, these are the accessibility things.

00:46:10 ◼   ► So, high contrast draws a line around everything, which is kind of like macOS.

00:46:14 ◼   ► Reduced transparency does more of what it says.

00:46:17 ◼   ► It reduces the transparency further.

00:46:20 ◼   ► Okay.

00:46:21 ◼   ► That's good.

00:46:24 ◼   ► An interesting part, I think, of this beta that I just noticed today, like, literally as we were getting ready to record, I plugged a phone in.

00:46:34 ◼   ► And on the lock screen above the time, just for a moment, I don't know how to get it back, but it will give you the amount charged and how much time to, in this case, 80%.

00:46:49 ◼   ► I think this phone is limited to 80% charging.

00:46:51 ◼   ► So, it said 56% charged, 23 minutes to 80%.

00:46:55 ◼   ► This is very common on Android phones, and I'm really glad iOS 26 has added it.

00:47:00 ◼   ► Well, only if you can find it.

00:47:02 ◼   ► Only, I don't know how to get it back.

00:47:04 ◼   ► They showed it to you one time.

00:47:06 ◼   ► It was there for a second.

00:47:08 ◼   ► So, it's good that you got to see it that one time.

00:47:11 ◼   ► Can we talk about the alarm buttons?

00:47:14 ◼   ► Yes.

00:47:15 ◼   ► Yeah, they're too big, right?

00:47:17 ◼   ► This is chaos UI.

00:47:18 ◼   ► I've thought this since I saw it.

00:47:19 ◼   ► So, Apple created a new thing called Alarm Kit, right?

00:47:22 ◼   ► Which I'm not 100% sure what that is, except, like, it just seems that, like, third-party apps can make alarms that look like the alarms in the alarm app.

00:47:31 ◼   ► You have described it.

00:47:32 ◼   ► But that's, to me, a very weird API in general.

00:47:37 ◼   ► Like, I find that peculiar.

00:47:39 ◼   ► I was like, what's wrong with notifications?

00:47:40 ◼   ► I guess maybe people...

00:47:41 ◼   ► Anyway, this is a thing that's being added.

00:47:44 ◼   ► But with that, they changed the look of alarms in general on the phone, and now it's, like, a huge text with the label of the alarm, and the snooze and stop buttons are now the same size and next to each other.

00:47:58 ◼   ► I am absolutely going to hit stop every single time, because I do it enough anyway.

00:48:05 ◼   ► Like, with the alarm button in the middle of the phone and then the stop button all the way at the bottom and tiny, like, they need to separate these.

00:48:13 ◼   ► Agreed.

00:48:14 ◼   ► They had the design right.

00:48:16 ◼   ► If they want to make the buttons bigger, they can do that.

00:48:18 ◼   ► I don't know why they need to do that.

00:48:19 ◼   ► I actually think this is not good-looking.

00:48:21 ◼   ► Like, I don't think this looks very good.

00:48:23 ◼   ► But from a user experience perspective, they've got to separate those buttons, right?

00:48:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:48:31 ◼   ► I think that's a regression.

00:48:33 ◼   ► I think they should fix it.

00:48:34 ◼   ► The other thing that's new in alarms is you can set a new snooze time.

00:48:39 ◼   ► It's been nine minutes.

00:48:40 ◼   ► I think we talked about this.

00:48:41 ◼   ► It's been nine minutes forever.

00:48:42 ◼   ► Now you can change that.

00:48:44 ◼   ► But yes, this UI is really not good.

00:48:48 ◼   ► They need to address this.

00:48:50 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:48:52 ◼   ► They should make the stop one smaller or much smaller.

00:48:55 ◼   ► And separate them.

00:48:57 ◼   ► Separate it.

00:48:58 ◼   ► That's the big thing.

00:48:59 ◼   ► They're too close together.

00:49:00 ◼   ► Look at us being designers.

00:49:04 ◼   ► Everyone is.

00:49:05 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:49:06 ◼   ► We fixed it.

00:49:07 ◼   ► Oh, here's another thing you could do with this new alarm API.

00:49:11 ◼   ► Let me share my alarms with someone so I can't press the button.

00:49:15 ◼   ► Somebody else has to press the button.

00:49:18 ◼   ► Oh, wow.

00:49:19 ◼   ► There you go.

00:49:19 ◼   ► Now, Mike will definitely get up.

00:49:21 ◼   ► Wait.

00:49:21 ◼   ► Because like...

00:49:22 ◼   ► So you would set an alarm for 9 a.m.

00:49:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:49:27 ◼   ► But your phone...

00:49:29 ◼   ► I don't know what your phone would do.

00:49:30 ◼   ► But if you shared it with me, my phone would go off at 9 a.m.

00:49:34 ◼   ► To come get you?

00:49:35 ◼   ► No.

00:49:35 ◼   ► Only you could hit snooze or whatever.

00:49:39 ◼   ► Actually, this doesn't work.

00:49:41 ◼   ► Basically, believe it or not, this doesn't work.

00:49:44 ◼   ► What I'm trying to do is create a scenario where my alarm makes me get out of bed.

00:49:48 ◼   ► Right?

00:49:48 ◼   ► Where like I lose the ability to press the buttons.

00:49:51 ◼   ► I guess, yeah.

00:49:52 ◼   ► Actually, there's no snooze button.

00:49:53 ◼   ► There's no stop button.

00:49:54 ◼   ► My wife can press the stop button.

00:49:56 ◼   ► But only when I'm up.

00:49:57 ◼   ► You know?

00:49:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:49:58 ◼   ► That's interesting to consider.

00:50:00 ◼   ► That's what I'm looking for.

00:50:02 ◼   ► Apple, if you want some serious innovation in alarm design, you just give me a call.

00:50:06 ◼   ► Oh, man.

00:50:09 ◼   ► There's some Mac-specific stuff beyond the Finder icon.

00:50:13 ◼   ► There's now a setting in the menu bar part of Mac OS settings.

00:50:20 ◼   ► Look at this MacRumors article.

00:50:21 ◼   ► Like, man, settings.

00:50:22 ◼   ► If you thought settings was ugly earlier.

00:50:24 ◼   ► Like, it's just so bad now.

00:50:25 ◼   ► Show menu bar background.

00:50:28 ◼   ► And you click it and you get a menu bar.

00:50:30 ◼   ► I was talking with somebody about this the other day, and they like the look of no menu

00:50:37 ◼   ► bar background.

00:50:38 ◼   ► Just the icons floating up there.

00:50:39 ◼   ► And I think it's fine depending on what your wallpaper is.

00:50:42 ◼   ► If your wallpaper is busy, your menu bar icons kind of get lost.

00:50:47 ◼   ► And so this is something that I will have on.

00:50:49 ◼   ► I prefer having a background up there.

00:50:51 ◼   ► I'm willing to try it.

00:50:53 ◼   ► Like, I'm willing to try it.

00:50:55 ◼   ► The default, as far as I can tell, is still no background.

00:50:58 ◼   ► So, a couple other things.

00:51:02 ◼   ► The migration assistant app icon got redone.

00:51:05 ◼   ► I only mentioned it because I think it looks awesome.

00:51:07 ◼   ► I think it's very fun.

00:51:09 ◼   ► All right.

00:51:10 ◼   ► Okay.

00:51:10 ◼   ► Where can we see it?

00:51:12 ◼   ► There's a MacRumors article.

00:51:13 ◼   ► Everything new in macOS Tahoe beta 2.

00:51:19 ◼   ► It's a black icon with, like, an arrow going right.

00:51:22 ◼   ► It's kind of silvery looking.

00:51:23 ◼   ► I think it's nice.

00:51:24 ◼   ► Oh, nice.

00:51:25 ◼   ► And you have access to the AirPods beta firmware, which before this, I think, was just on the

00:51:31 ◼   ► iPhone.

00:51:31 ◼   ► So, you can put betas on your AirPods if you want to.

00:51:36 ◼   ► That was spotted, apparently, by Federico Trevisani.

00:51:41 ◼   ► Trevisani.

00:51:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:51:43 ◼   ► That's not me.

00:51:44 ◼   ► I don't know who that is.

00:51:45 ◼   ► It's like a fake Federico.

00:51:46 ◼   ► I thought you were doing a joke there that, like, Federico was the one.

00:51:52 ◼   ► And you were like, oh, who is this Federico VTT?

00:51:55 ◼   ► Who is he?

00:51:56 ◼   ► That's what I thought you were doing.

00:51:57 ◼   ► But you weren't doing that.

00:51:58 ◼   ► But it sounds like I got the pronunciation semi-close.

00:52:01 ◼   ► Kind of.

00:52:02 ◼   ► Yes.

00:52:03 ◼   ► I'll take it.

00:52:03 ◼   ► Look, I'll take it.

00:52:04 ◼   ► Okay.

00:52:05 ◼   ► And then developers now have some tools in beta 2 to test their apps against Rosetta 2.

00:52:12 ◼   ► Rosetta 2 is going to be a rolled phase out in macOS 28, which I don't really understand.

00:52:19 ◼   ► Like, it's for, like, some games or something.

00:52:21 ◼   ► It's kind of confusing.

00:52:22 ◼   ► But at least there's a roadmap, and there's some new tools now to see if you're, you know,

00:52:26 ◼   ► maybe you're calling Rosetta 2 without maybe knowing it.

00:52:29 ◼   ► So, there you go.

00:52:31 ◼   ► There you go.

00:52:33 ◼   ► This episode of Connected is brought to you by Sentry.

00:52:38 ◼   ► All right, founders, it's time to be honest.

00:52:42 ◼   ► How much time is your team wasting on debugging?

00:52:45 ◼   ► If you're like most startups, it's probably too much.

00:52:48 ◼   ► Your team should be focused on shipping features, not chasing down bugs.

00:52:53 ◼   ► And this is where Sentry comes in.

00:52:56 ◼   ► It's a real-time monitoring and tracing platform, so you know exactly when something breaks, where it happened, and why.

00:53:04 ◼   ► So, there's no more 1 a.m. Slack threads or digging through endless logs.

00:53:10 ◼   ► Now, here's the game changer.

00:53:12 ◼   ► Seer is Sentry's new AI debugging agent.

00:53:16 ◼   ► It's like hiring an engineer who already knows your entire code base.

00:53:20 ◼   ► Seer finds the true root cause 94% of the time, and can even generate merge-ready pull requests, plus optional tests to prevent regressions.

00:53:33 ◼   ► The bottom line here is that you ship faster, and your team won't be drowning in bug alerts.

00:53:38 ◼   ► And instead of grinding through logs, your developers are back to building the product.

00:53:44 ◼   ► We use Sentry at Relay.

00:53:46 ◼   ► We've used it for years on Neon, our custom CMS, or content management system, that powers the Relay website.

00:53:53 ◼   ► So, if something goes wrong in the application, I and our developer, who's a freelancer, he doesn't have a lot of time with us,

00:54:01 ◼   ► we get an alert, we see exactly what's going on, and it makes it much easier to get a fix in place.

00:54:08 ◼   ► Honestly, we would not run without Sentry.

00:54:11 ◼   ► The good news is that you can get three months free of the team plan, which covers 150,000 errors.

00:54:20 ◼   ► So, check out the link in the show notes, or go to Sentry.io, that's S-E-N-T-R-Y, Sentry.io, and use the code CONNECTED, or again, check out the link in the show notes.

00:54:35 ◼   ► Our thanks to Sentry for not only making it easier to manage our CMS, but also supporting the show and all of Relay.

00:54:44 ◼   ► We put a call out for some questions in the wake of WWDC, so we got some questions and some kind of topics we want to go through from y'all.

00:54:54 ◼   ► I'm going to start with some praise for us, because it felt nice.

00:54:58 ◼   ► Peter said, I want to let you guys know that the CONNECTED post-event shows are my favorite way to get a recap of Apple events.

00:55:05 ◼   ► All the picks in the two different games make it a great way to go over everything that has happened, and in an organic way, keep up the great work.

00:55:14 ◼   ► Thank you, Peter.

00:55:15 ◼   ► It's the right way to do it.

00:55:18 ◼   ► Yeah, I find, you know, I struggled with this when we first started doing the Rickies as like, this is how we're going to cover events.

00:55:24 ◼   ► I struggled with it because, so we don't get to cover everything, but now I listen to shows that do it topic by topic, or like linearly, linearly through time.

00:55:36 ◼   ► Linearly?

00:55:37 ◼   ► Linearly.

00:55:38 ◼   ► Yes.

00:55:39 ◼   ► Linoleum-lary?

00:55:40 ◼   ► Linoleum-lary.

00:55:41 ◼   ► And I like the way we do it, too.

00:55:44 ◼   ► And if we don't get in touch on something, we talk about it the next week.

00:55:47 ◼   ► It's totally fine.

00:55:48 ◼   ► There's three months, right, until these things come out, and then they're out for a year.

00:55:52 ◼   ► Like, you know, we can cover it all eventually.

00:55:55 ◼   ► That's right.

00:55:56 ◼   ► Adrian wrote, I don't like liquid glass as a name for the new design.

00:56:04 ◼   ► We already have a name for transparent liquid, which has some of the properties of the new design elements.

00:56:09 ◼   ► It's called water.

00:56:10 ◼   ► Granted, it's a bad name.

00:56:12 ◼   ► Maybe there's a fancier way to say water.

00:56:14 ◼   ► Aqua was already taken.

00:56:17 ◼   ► H2 UI.

00:56:18 ◼   ► Oh, that's good.

00:56:20 ◼   ► That's what I would not call it, but that's what you could call it.

00:56:23 ◼   ► I think liquid glass has a good mouth feel.

00:56:29 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:56:30 ◼   ► Sounds nice.

00:56:31 ◼   ► You shouldn't put liquid glass in your mouth.

00:56:33 ◼   ► I mean, you shouldn't touch it, either.

00:56:35 ◼   ► Burn your hands off.

00:56:38 ◼   ► But here's the thing.

00:56:40 ◼   ► I like to say it.

00:56:41 ◼   ► I think that it is very indicative of what the thing is, right?

00:56:47 ◼   ► Like, I think you kind of get it, right?

00:56:49 ◼   ► It's like, what if glass, but it moves?

00:56:52 ◼   ► It is very design-ery.

00:56:56 ◼   ► And I think a lot of people bump up against that for reasons that I understand.

00:57:00 ◼   ► It's like, very like, did you need to brand it?

00:57:05 ◼   ► I don't know if it needed to be branded, right?

00:57:07 ◼   ► Like, it's just the operating system UI.

00:57:11 ◼   ► Like, I understand that maybe if you're trying to then explain it to developers, right?

00:57:16 ◼   ► That you would maybe say, like, we called this look the liquid glass look.

00:57:21 ◼   ► But, like, kind of like Aqua, right?

00:57:23 ◼   ► My sense of Aqua was it was what the UI kind of style was called.

00:57:28 ◼   ► But they, correct me if I'm wrong, Stephen, they didn't necessarily take a lot of time talking to users about Aqua.

00:57:33 ◼   ► They spent a lot of time, at least in the introduction.

00:57:36 ◼   ► Well, then forget everything that I'm saying.

00:57:37 ◼   ► This is the reason that they do it.

00:57:38 ◼   ► If only you had read a blog post called Revisiting the Aqua Introduction.

00:57:44 ◼   ► Stephen, I love you, and I know you spend a lot of time re-watching old keynotes.

00:57:48 ◼   ► Because I don't always feel like I want that information.

00:57:52 ◼   ► However, what you have proven to me here is, I should have done it, shouldn't I?

00:57:56 ◼   ► Should have done it.

00:57:57 ◼   ► Oh, this is only yesterday.

00:57:58 ◼   ► I mean, what do you want from me?

00:57:59 ◼   ► What are you doing?

00:58:00 ◼   ► Holding a sleeping baby?

00:58:01 ◼   ► That's a great point.

00:58:03 ◼   ► Holding a crying baby.

00:58:04 ◼   ► I'd be like, child, you must wait.

00:58:07 ◼   ► Stephen has written.

00:58:08 ◼   ► Uncle Stephen has a blog post, child.

00:58:10 ◼   ► From 25 years ago.

00:58:13 ◼   ► Look at this video.

00:58:15 ◼   ► It's like someone took a camcorder of a television.

00:58:19 ◼   ► What is going on?

00:58:20 ◼   ► Did you watch this?

00:58:22 ◼   ► This is like unwatchable.

00:58:23 ◼   ► I did watch it.

00:58:24 ◼   ► Oh, you shouldn't have said that.

00:58:26 ◼   ► It's Steve Jobs.

00:58:29 ◼   ► Can't be unwatchable.

00:58:30 ◼   ► I'm so mean.

00:58:33 ◼   ► What are you doing?

00:58:35 ◼   ► He's dead, dude.

00:58:37 ◼   ► I know.

00:58:37 ◼   ► I'm speaking ill.

00:58:38 ◼   ► I mean, jeez, have some grace, you know?

00:58:40 ◼   ► Have some respect.

00:58:42 ◼   ► No, you meant the quality of the video.

00:58:45 ◼   ► I mean, who knows what I meant?

00:58:46 ◼   ► It's a little chunky, you know?

00:58:48 ◼   ► A little?

00:58:49 ◼   ► It sounds like it's been.

00:58:51 ◼   ► You remember that video that MKBHD did where you re-uploaded a video to YouTube?

00:58:55 ◼   ► Yeah, it gave me nightmares.

00:58:56 ◼   ► Like a hundred thousand times?

00:58:57 ◼   ► It was like, it's like halfway through that process is what it said.

00:58:59 ◼   ► It gave me absolute nightmares.

00:59:01 ◼   ► So, they did talk a lot about it.

00:59:05 ◼   ► They were very proud of it.

00:59:07 ◼   ► And over time, that faded, right?

00:59:10 ◼   ► They talked about Aqua a lot.

00:59:11 ◼   ► And then, occasionally, they'd be like, oh, we've, you know, like in Leopard, they're like,

00:59:16 ◼   ► oh, we kind of unified the user interface.

00:59:19 ◼   ► Y'all may not remember, there was a rumor going into Leopard that the UI was going to be

00:59:25 ◼   ► called Marble.

00:59:26 ◼   ► Remember this?

00:59:28 ◼   ► We obviously remember.

00:59:29 ◼   ► Yes, we obviously do.

00:59:31 ◼   ► Mike, we obviously do.

00:59:32 ◼   ► Here it is.

00:59:34 ◼   ► Here it is.

00:59:34 ◼   ► In October 2007, what do you mean?

00:59:37 ◼   ► Arnold Kim writing.

00:59:40 ◼   ► Do you remember?

00:59:41 ◼   ► In October 2007, I was probably so high somewhere, I don't even know.

00:59:47 ◼   ► Based on our sources, Apple will apparently use Snow Leopard's release to tweak the overall

00:59:52 ◼   ► user interface to unify it across applications.

00:59:55 ◼   ► This new theme will likely involve tweaks to the existing design and a flattening of Aqua

01:00:00 ◼   ► in line with Apple's iTunes and iPhoto interface elements.

01:00:04 ◼   ► The codename for this new interface is said to be Marble, though this seems to be an internal

01:00:09 ◼   ► codename only.

01:00:10 ◼   ► John Gruber has also hinted at such changes in a pre-Mac world prediction piece and has

01:00:16 ◼   ► independently heard the codename Marble.

01:00:18 ◼   ► This never happened.

01:00:20 ◼   ► When you hear things like this, it makes me kind of sad because it's like, oh, it's just

01:00:26 ◼   ► the same thing.

01:00:27 ◼   ► You know, we just do it around and around.

01:00:29 ◼   ► Like, we're 25 years, you know, we just keep doing the same things over and over and over

01:00:34 ◼   ► again.

01:00:35 ◼   ► Here we are.

01:00:35 ◼   ► Same people, too, which is actually hilarious.

01:00:38 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:00:38 ◼   ► It's like, is this the same people?

01:00:40 ◼   ► Like, you could read that today and I'll be like, oh, is that for next year?

01:00:44 ◼   ► Marble.

01:00:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:00:46 ◼   ► Didn't it happen?

01:00:47 ◼   ► Uh, can I, can I say something?

01:00:50 ◼   ► Please.

01:00:50 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:00:51 ◼   ► I have completely lost track of what we're talking about.

01:00:54 ◼   ► Me, too.

01:00:55 ◼   ► What are we talking about?

01:00:56 ◼   ► Uh, they don't like Luke Glass is the name, but Aqua was already taken.

01:00:59 ◼   ► Ah, okay, sure.

01:01:01 ◼   ► Okay.

01:01:01 ◼   ► Maybe we'll move on.

01:01:02 ◼   ► Read this question from you.

01:01:03 ◼   ► And Marble?

01:01:03 ◼   ► And Marble?

01:01:04 ◼   ► And Marble.

01:01:04 ◼   ► What was Marble?

01:01:05 ◼   ► That was Leopard.

01:01:06 ◼   ► Don't you remember, Federico?

01:01:08 ◼   ► A rumor.

01:01:09 ◼   ► It was the codename for Leopard.

01:01:09 ◼   ► Right, right, right.

01:01:10 ◼   ► A rumor for Snow Leopard.

01:01:11 ◼   ► A rumored codename.

01:01:12 ◼   ► Wasn't even necessarily the, the only rumored codename I remember is Marzipan.

01:01:15 ◼   ► Oh, yeah.

01:01:16 ◼   ► Oh, Marzipan.

01:01:17 ◼   ► That was cute.

01:01:18 ◼   ► Because we talked about Marzipan for months.

01:01:21 ◼   ► Marzipan.

01:01:21 ◼   ► And that became Mac Catalyst.

01:01:23 ◼   ► Which is a worse name.

01:01:25 ◼   ► Marzipan was so much better.

01:01:27 ◼   ► Well, actually, first it was just Catalyst, wasn't it?

01:01:29 ◼   ► And then it became Mac Catalyst afterwards.

01:01:31 ◼   ► Hey, that's a good segue to our next question, Mike.

01:01:33 ◼   ► Why don't you read the next question about Catalyst?

01:01:35 ◼   ► Brian says, hi, from Malaysia.

01:01:37 ◼   ► Hi, Brian.

01:01:37 ◼   ► Any thoughts on the possibility of Apple introducing some sort of reverse Catalyst to enable Mac apps

01:01:44 ◼   ► to run on the iPad?

01:01:45 ◼   ► After all, with a menu bar, pointy pointer, and resizable windows, and a new iPadOS,

01:01:51 ◼   ► it could work from a UI perspective.

01:01:53 ◼   ► Sure.

01:01:53 ◼   ► Could also be a way to increase pro apps on the iPad.

01:01:56 ◼   ► What do you think, Mike?

01:01:58 ◼   ► I mean, I see all of this, right?

01:02:01 ◼   ► Like, I agree with all of this premise that, like, actually now is the first realistic time

01:02:07 ◼   ► that you could do this, that the pieces are in place.

01:02:10 ◼   ► The pointer being the most poignant one of them, right?

01:02:14 ◼   ► Like, the iPadOS trackpad would not have worked with Mac apps.

01:02:19 ◼   ► Like, it just wouldn't have worked.

01:02:20 ◼   ► And there are parts of iPadOS now which the touch targets are supremely small.

01:02:28 ◼   ► Like, the menu bar.

01:02:29 ◼   ► I struggle to get the menu bar to do what I want with a trackpad, right?

01:02:35 ◼   ► Like, it is so small.

01:02:36 ◼   ► So, I feel like all the pieces are in place, but I think that the new windowing system shows

01:02:44 ◼   ► is that they have made a decision about the direction for the iPad, and it's not Mac, right?

01:02:49 ◼   ► Like, because they could have just said, hey, iPad's still iPad.

01:02:53 ◼   ► Here's the Mac mode.

01:02:54 ◼   ► It's got all this stuff in it.

01:02:56 ◼   ► But now they've added all these things in to iPadOS, which to me feels less, I don't know,

01:03:01 ◼   ► I just feel like now, especially after, like, reading, like, Federico's piece and, like,

01:03:05 ◼   ► all the stuff that they've said about iPads since WWDC, it feels like more that they have

01:03:11 ◼   ► a sense of where they want to go, and I just, I'm not sure that I see that that's, we're going

01:03:16 ◼   ► to put Mac apps on it.

01:03:17 ◼   ► I think it's right.

01:03:20 ◼   ► I think, if anything, we're probably going to move.

01:03:24 ◼   ► I don't think we're going to see a reverse Mac catalyst.

01:03:27 ◼   ► I think, if anything, we're going to see Apple slowly but surely move toward universal apps

01:03:33 ◼   ► in the sense that they're going to just blur the line between what's an iPad app, what's

01:03:38 ◼   ► a Mac app, especially if, you know, two, three years from now, we may be looking at bigger

01:03:44 ◼   ► iPads that fold and unfold, or a MacBook with touch that also potentially unfolds.

01:03:49 ◼   ► I think, given the, all the similarities that we're going to see, rather than to say, well,

01:03:55 ◼   ► let's just bring over Mac apps to the iPad, they're just make it so that you're not going

01:04:02 ◼   ► to write to, you're not going to create two separate apps, you're going to say, oh, this

01:04:06 ◼   ► is an iPad target, oh, this is a Mac target.

01:04:08 ◼   ► You're just going to write one desktop app, and it's got a flexible layout.

01:04:13 ◼   ► If I were to bet on what they're doing, I think they would do universal apps.

01:04:17 ◼   ► Essentially, what they're doing with iPhone and iPad, but what if iPad and desktop?

01:04:23 ◼   ► Yeah, I think so, too.

01:04:24 ◼   ► That does kind of leave the initial question unanswered, or like, what about apps that only

01:04:29 ◼   ► exist on the Mac?

01:04:30 ◼   ► And maybe it's that, that just doesn't change, or over time.

01:04:34 ◼   ► They only exist on the Mac.

01:04:35 ◼   ► Yeah, it just remains the same.

01:04:37 ◼   ► You can kind of, the way I've kind of started thinking about this is like nesting dolls.

01:04:42 ◼   ► Like, you have watch apps at the center, the tiny nesting doll, and then there's iPhone

01:04:51 ◼   ► apps, and they're kind of like big and small versions of each other.

01:04:54 ◼   ► And then from the iPhone, iPad, and Mac, like it's, it could be the same app, but different

01:04:58 ◼   ► sizes, right?

01:04:59 ◼   ► The same doll, but different sizes.

01:05:01 ◼   ► And then at the top, where the analogy breaks down, you have Mac only, kind of the outer shell.

01:05:06 ◼   ► And honestly, I think Apple's, yes, honestly, I think Apple's fine with that.

01:05:13 ◼   ► I don't, I don't see Apple wanting to do away with Mac only applications.

01:05:19 ◼   ► Like, there's no reason for them to do that.

01:05:21 ◼   ► But they do want the Mac to benefit from the wealth of applications on the iPhone and iPad.

01:05:28 ◼   ► That's why we have Catalyst in the first place.

01:05:30 ◼   ► It's why Apple Silicon Macs can run iOS and iPadOS software, if the developers allow them

01:05:36 ◼   ► to.

01:05:36 ◼   ► And so the Mac can kind of benefit from all that, all of those other platforms.

01:05:42 ◼   ► And the innovation happening there.

01:05:44 ◼   ► And I don't think there's really any reason for it to go the other way.

01:05:47 ◼   ► Brad says, at WWDC this year, I didn't see much talk about the passwords app that launched

01:05:53 ◼   ► last year.

01:05:54 ◼   ► Were there any updates made this year?

01:05:55 ◼   ► And are you guys currently using it?

01:06:00 ◼   ► Well, I'm not using it anymore.

01:06:01 ◼   ► There was something that I saw about passwords that is new this year.

01:06:07 ◼   ► Version history.

01:06:09 ◼   ► Version history.

01:06:11 ◼   ► Thank you.

01:06:12 ◼   ► That's a good feature.

01:06:13 ◼   ► That's a good feature.

01:06:14 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:06:15 ◼   ► So you can see past edits.

01:06:17 ◼   ► This is huge.

01:06:19 ◼   ► I use one password.

01:06:20 ◼   ► And it's a huge feature for me.

01:06:22 ◼   ► It's like, oh, I changed a password, but maybe then it reset.

01:06:25 ◼   ► Or like, I saved the wrong thing or something.

01:06:27 ◼   ► It's great.

01:06:27 ◼   ► Or I've done it where, yeah, like I've, I think that's what you're saying, actually.

01:06:32 ◼   ► Sorry.

01:06:32 ◼   ► Like, I've made the change and didn't save it correctly.

01:06:35 ◼   ► Is that what you meant?

01:06:37 ◼   ► Like, it's like, yeah.

01:06:38 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:06:40 ◼   ► And so then you get lost.

01:06:41 ◼   ► It's like, oh, actually, I need the previous version of the password that's in one password

01:06:44 ◼   ► because I never actually changed it on the website.

01:06:45 ◼   ► I just changed it in one password.

01:06:47 ◼   ► So like, stuff like, yeah, yeah, that is a very good feature.

01:06:50 ◼   ► It's a very good feature.

01:06:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:06:51 ◼   ► I use one password as well.

01:06:53 ◼   ► I mean, just for me, like, I understand people using the passwords app, but like, I have three

01:06:58 ◼   ► vaults shared with different people.

01:07:00 ◼   ► Like, I'm, I'm just not going into that world.

01:07:03 ◼   ► Like, I don't need to change.

01:07:05 ◼   ► Like, one password creates frustrations for me and points, but I also know that the password

01:07:10 ◼   ► app would too, and they'd just be different ones.

01:07:12 ◼   ► So like, I'm just not really willing to change myself.

01:07:15 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

01:07:17 ◼   ► Aaron asks, um, oh, hang on.

01:07:20 ◼   ► First of all, do y'all see the thing?

01:07:22 ◼   ► I think it was on threads about someone like vibe coded a password manager.

01:07:25 ◼   ► That's a terrible idea.

01:07:26 ◼   ► Don't do that.

01:07:27 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:07:27 ◼   ► Well, I mean, it's a great idea if you want to steal a bunch of passwords.

01:07:31 ◼   ► Not that I'm saying this person is doing that, but like, if, if, if you wanted to, you

01:07:36 ◼   ► know, that's a good way to do it, I guess.

01:07:37 ◼   ► Oh, and then they productized it.

01:07:39 ◼   ► That's what it is.

01:07:40 ◼   ► I built and launched a password manager for my family in seven days.

01:07:43 ◼   ► Cool.

01:07:46 ◼   ► Don't do it.

01:07:46 ◼   ► Don't use that.

01:07:48 ◼   ► Uh, Aaron asks, how do you find going to WWDC feels outside the events now compared to the

01:07:55 ◼   ► San Francisco years?

01:07:57 ◼   ► Are there still enough community opportunities and events, or does it feel lacking?

01:08:01 ◼   ► Um, I would say that I would kind of restructure Aaron's question a little bit.

01:08:07 ◼   ► I really view WWDC in three phases, like in the current era, there was San Francisco, there

01:08:13 ◼   ► was San Jose, and now there's Apple park, like the post COVID version where it's one

01:08:20 ◼   ► day and it's like a thousand developers and there's nothing else in person in terms of

01:08:24 ◼   ► labs or, or sessions.

01:08:25 ◼   ► Um, I really liked when it was in San Jose.

01:08:31 ◼   ► Uh, I know San Jose is small, there's less to do, but also made it really easy to run

01:08:36 ◼   ► into people.

01:08:37 ◼   ► And there were still other events.

01:08:40 ◼   ► Like we were doing a live show.

01:08:42 ◼   ► Other people were doing live shows.

01:08:43 ◼   ► There were other conferences running in parallel and all of that.

01:08:48 ◼   ► Most of that is completely gone after COVID.

01:08:51 ◼   ► And that's a bummer.

01:08:52 ◼   ► Yep.

01:08:52 ◼   ► I loved and miss, uh, WWDC in San Jose so much.

01:08:57 ◼   ► Um, I love the format.

01:08:59 ◼   ► I love that it was a kind of a boring town, but it sort of came alive during the week at

01:09:05 ◼   ► WWDC.

01:09:05 ◼   ► It was perfect to run into people.

01:09:08 ◼   ► Um, Apple park is beautiful.

01:09:11 ◼   ► Apple park is great.

01:09:12 ◼   ► Don't get me wrong.

01:09:13 ◼   ► I mean, it's a nice place, but you just don't get that social aspect anymore.

01:09:17 ◼   ► They have the visitor center where you can sort of meet people, but it's always kind of

01:09:22 ◼   ► weird, especially if you are a member of the press, you are in a, in an area that is just

01:09:27 ◼   ► for press people.

01:09:28 ◼   ► You're in basically in a pen that's cordoned off from, from developers.

01:09:32 ◼   ► And so you got to always be on the lookout.

01:09:34 ◼   ► If somebody walks by, you can go upstairs, but there's not enough tables to sit down and

01:09:39 ◼   ► charge your computer or something.

01:09:41 ◼   ► Uh, walking around, it's not really an option because I mean, Tantau Avenue, there's traffic

01:09:46 ◼   ► during the weekend.

01:09:46 ◼   ► So like, it's, it's not like, it's not a great hangout place outside of Apple park and there's

01:09:51 ◼   ► really nothing else going on outside of Apple park beyond the visitor center.

01:09:56 ◼   ► Apple parks in a neighborhood.

01:09:57 ◼   ► Like if you've never been, you drive through like a residential neighborhood to get there.

01:10:03 ◼   ► Um, and at least in San Jose, the event center, you know, the downtown wasn't very big,

01:10:09 ◼   ► like, but there was the event center.

01:10:11 ◼   ► There were some hotels, there were some restaurants and there used to be a coffee shop.

01:10:14 ◼   ► Like there were places to congregate.

01:10:17 ◼   ► It was at least downtown.

01:10:19 ◼   ► You were at least downtown.

01:10:20 ◼   ► You were at least downtown.

01:10:22 ◼   ► And there was a, there was like the food court place, right?

01:10:26 ◼   ► With all the restaurants.

01:10:27 ◼   ► And then there was that other street with a bunch of other restaurants.

01:10:30 ◼   ► And then of course it was the McCarrie convention center where there was plenty of place to

01:10:34 ◼   ► hang out outside of the convention center.

01:10:37 ◼   ► Um, I miss, and I continue to share this feedback with, with, with Apple PR.

01:10:42 ◼   ► I really do miss the social aspect of WWDC, but increasingly, you know, it feels like they're

01:10:49 ◼   ► just limiting the activities.

01:10:50 ◼   ► Uh, at the very least this year, there was the movie.

01:10:54 ◼   ► So, you know, we, we, we got to, we got to see a bunch of people before and after the

01:11:00 ◼   ► movie.

01:11:00 ◼   ► Oh, can you talk about that?

01:11:02 ◼   ► Can you talk about how it looked and sounded?

01:11:05 ◼   ► Cause I'm sure it was incredible.

01:11:06 ◼   ► It sounded incredible.

01:11:08 ◼   ► And it looked incredible inside the seat of theater.

01:11:10 ◼   ► They have a fancy sound system.

01:11:12 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:11:13 ◼   ► I know I went to the iPhone event a couple of years ago and that was incredible, but

01:11:17 ◼   ► it was a keynote video, right?

01:11:19 ◼   ► Like it was amazing as the iPhone swooped in and like the base shook the building, but then

01:11:23 ◼   ► the rest of it was just people talking.

01:11:24 ◼   ► Um, I think I heard once somebody say that there is like at least a woofer or some part

01:11:30 ◼   ► of an independent sound system in every seat.

01:11:32 ◼   ► That's awesome.

01:11:33 ◼   ► I heard from somebody that the Steve Jobs theater, the sound system, uh, was designed to like

01:11:41 ◼   ► adapt dynamically to different types of content, um, in, in, in, in a very fancy way that I

01:11:49 ◼   ► cannot re-describe it because I don't know the words, uh, but something like that, but

01:11:55 ◼   ► it's basically very, very like big money fancy essentially.

01:11:59 ◼   ► Um, and it sounds great.

01:12:02 ◼   ► I mean, the colors sounded fantastic.

01:12:04 ◼   ► Um, but yeah, I miss San Jose.

01:12:08 ◼   ► I miss the social aspect.

01:12:09 ◼   ► Apple park is beautiful, but I would prefer to see the people than Apple park.

01:12:15 ◼   ► And it's hard to see the people.

01:12:17 ◼   ► I want to give a shout out for the San Francisco years.

01:12:20 ◼   ► They were the most that when we were in San Francisco, I had the most fun.

01:12:24 ◼   ► Like I think it may have been because I was younger and dumber.

01:12:29 ◼   ► Then you were less famous.

01:12:31 ◼   ► We used to just run around sometimes drink too much and be out real late.

01:12:36 ◼   ► Like it was that they were fun years, like especially right at the beginning.

01:12:41 ◼   ► And plus you're in San Francisco, which is fun.

01:12:45 ◼   ► This stuff, right?

01:12:46 ◼   ► Like we used to, you know, we used to drive all over to see a bunch of companies.

01:12:50 ◼   ► You know, we went to Alcatraz one time.

01:12:53 ◼   ► We did Alcatraz one time.

01:12:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:12:54 ◼   ► Like there's me and Steven made a bad decision of walking across the Golden Gate Bridge.

01:12:59 ◼   ► And it was maybe the coldest I've ever been in my life.

01:13:02 ◼   ► Uh, it was, you know, it was fun.

01:13:05 ◼   ► Like it was, it was, I like, I like the city of San Francisco and it was fun to be there.

01:13:10 ◼   ► Um, and like you're in like a big city cause like San Jose, it was nice that everyone was

01:13:15 ◼   ► like close together, but my God, there's nothing like really is unbelievable.

01:13:20 ◼   ► Like to call it a downtown, like you're really stretching it.

01:13:23 ◼   ► It's just that like there's hotels close to each other.

01:13:25 ◼   ► And that was like essentially all there was like, there was just nothing there, like nothing.

01:13:30 ◼   ► Um, but I, having done the, having successfully completed one WWDC at Apple Park, um, I did

01:13:38 ◼   ► do that one where there, where it was really small, like really, really small.

01:13:42 ◼   ► Like it was just one room.

01:13:43 ◼   ► I don't know if you guys were at that WWDC, uh, where it was just one room in San Jose.

01:13:48 ◼   ► Do you remember that one?

01:13:49 ◼   ► It's when I had COVID.

01:13:51 ◼   ► It was my COVID WWDC.

01:13:52 ◼   ► Oh, I was.

01:13:53 ◼   ► Very small.

01:13:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:13:54 ◼   ► I was.

01:13:55 ◼   ► Very small.

01:13:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:13:56 ◼   ► But it was, you weren't, you wouldn't see me.

01:13:58 ◼   ► Do you remember that?

01:13:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:13:59 ◼   ► I saw you from across like the street cause you had, you had COVID and I didn't want

01:14:04 ◼   ► to see me refuse to see me.

01:14:06 ◼   ► I, that's very sad, very sad, very sad.

01:14:08 ◼   ► And, uh, so yeah, but what I know is from the Apple Park here is it's just, there's nothing,

01:14:14 ◼   ► there's nowhere to go.

01:14:15 ◼   ► Right.

01:14:16 ◼   ► There's nothing.

01:14:16 ◼   ► There's, we found this nice little area.

01:14:19 ◼   ► I've forgotten the name of it now, which had like a mall and a bunch of like coffee shops.

01:14:22 ◼   ► So there are nice little spots, but they're not right there.

01:14:25 ◼   ► Um, and you can't get everybody around.

01:14:29 ◼   ► Like all the, everyone's staying in the hotels around Apple Park and around Apple Park, there's

01:14:34 ◼   ► nothing.

01:14:34 ◼   ► So it's a shame.

01:14:35 ◼   ► It's a shame.

01:14:36 ◼   ► And, and the, the final thing I will say is that I also missed the bash, the concert.

01:14:42 ◼   ► That was fun.

01:14:43 ◼   ► Oh, they're still doing that.

01:14:45 ◼   ► Cause they did do it, didn't they?

01:14:47 ◼   ► At least one of them.

01:14:49 ◼   ► No, no.

01:14:50 ◼   ► They stopped in San Jose.

01:14:51 ◼   ► No.

01:14:52 ◼   ► I don't think they brought it back after COVID.

01:14:54 ◼   ► It did happen in San Jose, I think.

01:14:57 ◼   ► Oh, it was that panic at the disco concert.

01:15:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:15:01 ◼   ► It was one of the most fun moments I've had, you know, as an adult, you know, doing ostensibly

01:15:08 ◼   ► what was a work week.

01:15:09 ◼   ► Me and James Thompson.

01:15:11 ◼   ► It was incredible.

01:15:12 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:15:12 ◼   ► It looks like the bash ended in 19 with, uh, yeah.

01:15:17 ◼   ► Uh, Weezer in 2019.

01:15:20 ◼   ► Oh.

01:15:21 ◼   ► Okay.

01:15:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:15:22 ◼   ► I don't remember that one.

01:15:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:15:24 ◼   ► Oh, well.

01:15:26 ◼   ► Well, it was fun.

01:15:27 ◼   ► Questions are fun.

01:15:29 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:15:30 ◼   ► Uh, I think that does it this week though.

01:15:32 ◼   ► I think so.

01:15:34 ◼   ► I think so too.

01:15:35 ◼   ► If you want to find links to stuff we spoke about, uh, check out your podcast player or they're

01:15:42 ◼   ► on the web at relay.fm slash connected slash five, five, eight.

01:15:48 ◼   ► There's a link to leave feedback or follow up.

01:15:51 ◼   ► So if you have a question or something you want to share with us, drop it in there.

01:15:54 ◼   ► Uh, and you can also get connected pro there's a link in the show notes, uh, or you can go

01:15:58 ◼   ► to get connected pro.co connected pro is the longer ad free version of the show that we

01:16:04 ◼   ► do each and every week.

01:16:05 ◼   ► It is $7 a month, a longer show, no ads, but you also get a lot of perks from relay.

01:16:12 ◼   ► So access to our discord, a newsletter, some members only podcasts.

01:16:15 ◼   ► It's a great deal.

01:16:17 ◼   ► Go check it out.

01:16:17 ◼   ► We would love your support.

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01:16:20 ◼   ► So those of you who are members, thank you.

01:16:24 ◼   ► Uh, you can find Federico's work at max stories.net where he is the editor in chief, lots of great

01:16:30 ◼   ► stuff going on over there.

01:16:31 ◼   ► Mike hosts many other shows here on relay and you can check out his work at cortex brand.

01:16:37 ◼   ► You can find my writing at five.

01:16:40 ◼   ► And, and he's writing at the enthusiast.net.

01:16:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:16:44 ◼   ► I need to add that to my template at the bottom.

01:16:46 ◼   ► I'm doing that right now.

01:16:47 ◼   ► I, I appreciate how enthusiastic you were Federico.

01:16:50 ◼   ► Yes.

01:16:51 ◼   ► Oh, that's, he's got the energy comments, the energy.

01:16:54 ◼   ► The, by the way, the name of the place that I'm thinking of is Santana Rowe.

01:16:58 ◼   ► Oh, okay.

01:17:00 ◼   ► It's not close.

01:17:01 ◼   ► It's like 15 minutes away from Apple Park, but it was a really nice little area of a lot

01:17:05 ◼   ► of nice food and like restaurants and coffee shops and stuff.

01:17:08 ◼   ► There we go.

01:17:09 ◼   ► It was one of those places where you see a bunch of podcast advertisers in one place, you know,

01:17:14 ◼   ► one of those kinds of malls.

01:17:15 ◼   ► Got it.

01:17:17 ◼   ► Uh, yeah.

01:17:19 ◼   ► Mike's a blogger.

01:17:20 ◼   ► Go read his blog.

01:17:20 ◼   ► Mike's a blogger.

01:17:21 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:17:21 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:17:22 ◼   ► He's brought it back.

01:17:23 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:17:25 ◼   ► Thanks to me.

01:17:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:17:27 ◼   ► You're going to find my writing at five, 12 pixels.net.

01:17:31 ◼   ► And I co-host Mac power users here on relay each and every Sunday.

01:17:35 ◼   ► I'd like to thank our sponsors, Ecamm and Sentry for their support of the show.

01:17:39 ◼   ► And until next time, guys, say goodbye.

01:17:42 ◼   ► Adios.

01:17:43 ◼   ► Cheerio.

01:17:44 ◼   ► Bye, y'all.