00:00:00 ◼ ► Jason, sometimes, well, I'm always happy to have you on the show, but then it's like, who should I have on the show? I want to do a show. There's a lot to talk about. And I think, ah, and then I look and it's like, man, Jason hasn't been on since September. That's a long time. And then I'm doing the show notes where, you know, my little outline here. I'm looking at the topics and I've got it in my head now. I could not have anybody on the show this week but you.
00:00:30 ◼ ► Yeah, we could talk about baseball and keyboards. Everybody loves that. There's so much for us to talk about.
00:00:37 ◼ ► I know, I know. Let's get the baseball out of the way right now. I got a question for you.
00:00:52 ◼ ► And if you get through nine and it's tied, having a swing off is a perfectly reasonable way to handle an exhibition game.
00:01:00 ◼ ► But the people who are like, oh, they should end all the baseball games with one of those.
00:01:11 ◼ ► Those three home runs by Schwarber, well, you'll never, I mean, that was a lot of fun, but you'll never get that again.
00:01:20 ◼ ► It reminds me of, and again, this is sort of like, to me, I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world.
00:01:29 ◼ ► But when I was growing up, and again, it sounds so old-timey now in the year 2025, but I didn't grow up in the middle of nowhere.
00:01:45 ◼ ► And sometimes, usually by the seasons of the pro sports, we'd be playing touch football or tackle football on the grass.
00:02:21 ◼ ► Yeah, having a good, I think what it points out is that sports should have a pretty good, like, if you want to be, Americans are very much like this, a sport that does not have ties.
00:02:34 ◼ ► I would say in baseball, like, I'd say after 12 innings, you should just call it a tie and walk away or 11.
00:02:40 ◼ ► But if you're going to have to break the tie, break it in a way that is fun and doesn't take too long.
00:02:54 ◼ ► Anyway, if we're in our rec league, if you're done at the end, I mean, you can just call it a tie.
00:03:11 ◼ ► And baseball, the problem with baseball and the problem with when you do soccer and you do a full extra period is it just goes on.
00:03:28 ◼ ► So I really like the idea of having a quick, fun thing that is not the sport, but we got to leave.
00:03:47 ◼ ► But I've had over the last 20 years, I think, given that I only go to see maybe on average two and a half in-person major league games a year,
00:04:27 ◼ ► I just love how, when you're in person, what looks on TV like, oh, my God, that was close.
00:05:03 ◼ ► I've never, first, I think, the only baseball game I've ever left in my life before it was
00:05:25 ◼ ► And then one time we were there, it was probably about 10 years ago, we were at Yankee Stadium.
00:05:45 ◼ ► And you could hear individual fans who were left, and it's, I love baseball, but my God,
00:05:53 ◼ ► After a while, like, there becomes a kind of perverse joy in watching, like, pitchers have
00:05:59 ◼ ► to field and stuff, because they don't know what they're doing or position players pitching.
00:06:03 ◼ ► But yeah, there comes, I'm a big believer in the idea that a penalty shootout is not the
00:06:16 ◼ ► But at some point, either you need to call it a tie, or you need to say, let's end this
00:06:23 ◼ ► Actually, as a college football fan, I prefer the way they handle college, because they basically
00:06:39 ◼ ► I went to like a five-overtime game once, and it literally, the guy who was the head coach
00:06:43 ◼ ► on the other team, or maybe it was four overtimes, it was Dick Tomey, who was the coach at Arizona
00:06:48 ◼ ► And he got to the fourth overtime, and he just went for two at the end, because he didn't
00:07:00 ◼ ► And they changed the rules, so it's literally after you do it once, you got to go for two.
00:07:39 ◼ ► They didn't, they, I think they felt like the pitching staffs were really overtaxed and
00:07:45 ◼ ► And so they, they introduced what I, I don't know who, who invented it, if it was Craig Calcaterra
00:07:58 ◼ ► And so the Manfred man is Rob Manfred, the commissioner of baseball saying in extra innings
00:08:09 ◼ ► I mean, bottom line, I like it because, because baseball is a low scoring game and you could
00:08:16 ◼ ► And with the Manfred man out there, it's again, it's likely to be over in 10 or 11 and,
00:08:25 ◼ ► If I got to be baseball commissioner, I would have the Manfred man start in the like 12th
00:08:35 ◼ ► You're like, tell me with the, with the overtimes, you're like, you can have a little bit, but
00:08:42 ◼ ► So, but otherwise, I don't know, but how would you, I just make it a tie after 12, maybe
00:09:06 ◼ ► And I know in the NFL, it's like if the overtime period ends up with no scores, it becomes a
00:09:16 ◼ ► Sorry, non-sports fans, but you know, even nerds have to like rule structures and stuff
00:09:20 ◼ ► And they changed the rules in the NFL to make the overtime shorter and that there's this
00:09:27 ◼ ► And so now you do see a lot more ties and you see a lot more games that end with like 30
00:09:32 ◼ ► seconds left or two seconds left because even that Superbowl, the 49ers and the, and the
00:09:41 ◼ ► I believe when that, when the chiefs won because, and they would have just played another overtime,
00:09:47 ◼ ► But like when the games aren't advancing somebody in a tournament, I, I, I root for the tie in
00:10:06 ◼ ► I, it still bothers me game theory wise that if you win the toss in NFL and you, you say
00:10:19 ◼ ► And the other team doesn't playoffs, but yeah, but it, yeah, except in that, that alone bothers
00:10:24 ◼ ► The playoffs should be the same game you play in a regular season, which is also what bothers
00:10:44 ◼ ► And I think you should have a coin toss for who decides they want the ball first and then
00:10:50 ◼ ► do something like college where you get the ball on the 40 yard line and then the other
00:10:58 ◼ ► And you've got to decide, do you kick an extra point or do you go for two if you score a
00:11:16 ◼ ► going to do this asinine thing this fall where they're going to use lasers and cameras to
00:11:25 ◼ ► And it's the most fake technological solution because what's going to happen is the play
00:12:05 ◼ ► And if you don't break the plane of the next yard line, the ball gets put back on the previous
00:12:10 ◼ ► And there's no like halfway, one inch, quarter of an inch, third of an inch, because I don't
00:12:20 ◼ ► inches, you're back at the two yard line because you got to break the plane of the one yard
00:12:25 ◼ ► If I was, if I ran the zoo, that's what I do because they don't seem to have the technology
00:12:44 ◼ ► But instead, the NFL says, yeah, we'll just slap a laser in there and that'll impress people.
00:12:50 ◼ ► Do you think this is entirely because of the one game, the playoff game this year with Buffalo
00:12:54 ◼ ► and the Chiefs are playing and it's at the end of the game and Josh Allen is running and
00:13:03 ◼ ► I think it's that one play and there's an overhead camera that CBS had that showed it and it's
00:13:09 ◼ ► like, I don't know exactly, you know, if you're talking about inches, who knows exactly where
00:13:14 ◼ ► he got, but when they put the ball like most of a yard behind where he clearly got to, it's
00:13:21 ◼ ► And then one bad, one bad play in a big game and all of a sudden they change the rules for
00:13:30 ◼ ► Why is it, and this is apparently just changing right now, but why is it that people take
00:13:37 ◼ ► It's because one guy, because Richard Reed in like 2004 tried to have like flammable stuff
00:13:46 ◼ ► And since then everybody has to take their shoes off until maybe this year for like two
00:14:03 ◼ ► He was a real kook and his shoe bombs were just, I don't know, a bunch of stuff glued to
00:14:12 ◼ ► And it could have done damage, I think, but like the idea is that just a huge overreaction.
00:14:20 ◼ ► This is what, that's why there's the weird overtime rule in the NFL now is because weird,
00:14:32 ◼ ► I think it was also a Bills Chiefs game where, where it was the crazy high scoring game.
00:14:39 ◼ ► It was like three touchdowns were scored in the last 20 seconds of the game goes to overtime.
00:14:44 ◼ ► And then the Chiefs score another one and the Bills don't even get to touch the ball or something
00:14:57 ◼ ► Nobody ever talks about it because it is a, because it is a, unlike other sports, you score
00:15:13 ◼ ► Nobody ever thinks, and every once in a while there's double overtime and like once a year
00:15:22 ◼ ► I mean, the problem is the basketball has the best solution to this, which is the Elam ending
00:15:26 ◼ ► where they basically, when you, when you reach a threshold, like when the clock's got five
00:15:31 ◼ ► minutes to go, the Elam ending is like you add a number of points to whoever has the most
00:15:51 ◼ ► Apparently it can lead to some very exciting outcomes because everybody knows that you have
00:16:10 ◼ ► Like watching a clock instead of watching people play sports, but bugs the heck out of me.
00:16:35 ◼ ► And then it gets, it also gets a little more playground deep where playground basketball is
00:16:42 ◼ ► Maybe the playground knows what, see, I think that's the answer here is what we've said is
00:16:45 ◼ ► you guys out on the, on the grass playing tackle football on a, on a fall day in Pennsylvania,
00:17:00 ◼ ► I bought, I bought my first new, I bought my first new mechanical keyboard in several years.
00:17:11 ◼ ► I, I, I figured out that I, every couple of years and then you come on and I talk about
00:17:16 ◼ ► it and then I've, I've spent, I don't know, a hundred, usually a hundred, 200, sometimes
00:17:31 ◼ ► And then, and there's a couple of days where I'm like, this is novel and it's fun to have
00:17:42 ◼ ► And now I don't have a crazy high stack of keyboards, but it does, if you looked at all
00:17:47 ◼ ► of them, because I never throw them out, it's starting to look a little crazy, even though
00:18:15 ◼ ► I think I have one or two from them that they sent me, but I bought what they call the kick
00:18:20 ◼ ► 75 and the kick 75 is, you can't, it doesn't come as a kit that you can change, but it is
00:18:29 ◼ ► some kind of breakthrough that they are, they're claiming it as a breakthrough where the same
00:18:40 ◼ ► So you could buy both sets and then do all the work of taking out the switches and, and
00:18:47 ◼ ► apparently that the difference between low profile and high profile, and for anybody who's not
00:18:54 ◼ ► High profile is exactly what you think most mechanical keyboards are and low profile are
00:19:03 ◼ ► They're, they're, they're, the actual plastic key caps are smaller and you press them less
00:19:09 ◼ ► So they're sort of like the laptop keys from, and we'll get to this topic in a bit, like
00:19:14 ◼ ► old, like late 1980s, early 1990s PC laptops when they actually were still mechanical keyboards
00:20:07 ◼ ► The arrow keys have a little bit of separation, not like a laptop where they're Tetris totally
00:20:14 ◼ ► There's a little bit of space there for the arrow upside down T arrow keys, and it has page
00:20:20 ◼ ► page up, page down, and, but not both home and end, which is, I don't get, I don't get why,
00:20:31 ◼ ► It just has, I forget which one, home, but page up and page down are the ones that are the ones that are the one.
00:20:36 ◼ ► This is a very similar layout to the keyboard that I've been using the last few years, which
00:20:45 ◼ ► So it's got a function row, and it's got arrow keys that are separate, and it's got page up,
00:21:17 ◼ ► And again, you can configure this, but like a standard, I think, bog standard PC setup,
00:21:23 ◼ ► if your keyboard has home and end and you're typing, home and end move to the beginning and end of line,
00:21:35 ◼ ► It has, the keys have a sort of chalky, I mean, I'm not going to try to ASMR it here on the podcast,
00:21:49 ◼ ► And I did use it at my desk for three or four days before I went back to my Apple extended keyboard too.
00:22:00 ◼ ► And when I want to type on my phone or sometimes my iPad, instead of using that little cramped 11-inch magic keyboard,
00:22:21 ◼ ► I don't think anyone could make a keyboard that you would like better than the Apple extended too.
00:22:27 ◼ ► Because you, because you know it so well that even if somebody could distill exactly what you like about it
00:22:32 ◼ ► and then make something that was just even more of that, I don't, I think you'd be like, that's too much.
00:22:40 ◼ ► The good news is, I know you've got spares, but, and, and by the way, just some follow-up from your,
00:22:51 ◼ ► Yes, you totally could get, I mean, he said it, you could totally get your old keyboard fixed.
00:23:10 ◼ ► And I, I definitely wrote on that, wrote hundreds of thousands of words on that over the years in the, in the like 90s.
00:23:28 ◼ ► With a Tinker Boy USB-C to 80B adapter, which is great, which has probably got more electronics brains in it than the Mac SE had in it.
00:23:39 ◼ ► But I, I did, I'm somebody who came back to mechanical keyboards and was like, this is the feeling I like.
00:23:48 ◼ ► I had been using just generic Apple keyboards for so long that I can, I have managed to find like brown switches and, and the high profile keys.
00:24:08 ◼ ► I have two now in two different rooms, but if I had, if I had kept that using that keyboard throughout my career, there is no way you could get me to stop because once you're used to something like that.
00:24:19 ◼ ► And, and I was just talking to Andy and I co about this, which is don't feel bad about it because this is what we do.
00:24:30 ◼ ► This is your, your, your, your Ram truck, whatever it is as a writer, the keyboards as silly as it seems, it totally matters because that's, that's our tool of our, our, our trade is, is the keyboard.
00:24:42 ◼ ► And the microphones, I guess, I guess the microphones are part of our trade now too, but they're less exciting to me than the keyboards.
00:25:07 ◼ ► And if I'm being honest now at Thanksgiving where I'd had, I'd had a few because it was Thanksgiving.
00:25:12 ◼ ► And then I get on Twitter and there's a guy saying, Jason, you sound terrible on your podcast.
00:25:23 ◼ ► And he said, get a guess, get a sure SM seven B it's the right microphone for your voice.
00:25:31 ◼ ► And my travel mic is now in a sure as MV seven, which is basically the USB version of the same
00:25:51 ◼ ► And so I guess if I really cared about exactly how I sound, then, you know, that's a feeling
00:26:06 ◼ ► I mean, you do get some feedback when you're talking, but it's just not the same as, and
00:26:20 ◼ ► Look, there are people who care about keyboards or other stuff for purely kind of like academic
00:26:26 ◼ ► It's a hobby, but like, seriously, I care about it mostly because I sit here writing a lot
00:26:33 ◼ ► I like it when it sounds good and feels good and I get into a flow and I can type 120 words
00:26:43 ◼ ► And like, it's always good advice to, to don't cheap out on the chair that you buy for your
00:26:49 ◼ ► If you have a, if you can afford it, if you find a chair that you think is perfect and it costs,
00:26:56 ◼ ► I bought mine for, I think somewhere between 1500 and 2000, like 10, 15 years ago, but it's
00:27:12 ◼ ► But, but if you just like the way it feels when you click the buttons on the keyboard and
00:27:24 ◼ ► fingers on a keyboard and you actually find it pleasant how it sounds and feels, you do
00:27:45 ◼ ► I set up before I left my, my job at Macworld and I, I was, I kind of cheaped out on some
00:27:56 ◼ ► And if, if it's something that matters, that is part of my workspace, I should probably spend
00:28:05 ◼ ► So it took me a decade to go from the curtains that I bought on Amazon for $50 and hung so that
00:28:17 ◼ ► I bought like a corporate room divider that is eight feet tall that makes this feel like
00:28:28 ◼ ► And there is, so, so it's one of those things that like, look, if you can't afford it, that's
00:28:32 ◼ ► But I think a lot of people end up suffering with crappy things to do their jobs because
00:28:41 ◼ ► And, and, and sometimes the, the trick is realizing when it's actually not fine and this is your
00:28:52 ◼ ► Oh, it's not, it's a business expense, meaning it's free, but it's a business expense means
00:29:00 ◼ ► I know that I talked about it with Glenn Fleischman, who's now contributed to six colors, which is
00:29:06 ◼ ► some of the, some of the best meet Mac media news that possibly of the year, but that's a
00:29:14 ◼ ► But I think literally on this show many years ago, I think Glenn was on and we talked about
00:29:19 ◼ ► when Glenn was an early Amazon employee and one of the edicts from Bezos was because like
00:29:26 ◼ ► when he started it in a like literal garage with two other guys, they made desks out of
00:29:33 ◼ ► They just took a couple of carpenters or construction, saw horses and abandoned doors, put them
00:29:44 ◼ ► And it's like, that's the, the idea behind it of we're not going to waste a lot of money
00:29:52 ◼ ► And we're going to be a lean, mean operation, even as we go through extraordinary growth and
00:29:58 ◼ ► I get that, but you're going to have a desk that is incredibly uncomfortable and is unsuited
00:30:16 ◼ ► When I was in grad school, I got offered a job at Intel, which, wow, that would have been
00:30:46 ◼ ► And they were like very proud of the fact that they had a really cubicle egalitarian culture.
00:31:00 ◼ ► So Andy Grove was the CEO of Intel, one of the most powerful people in the tech industry
00:31:16 ◼ ► It was the size of 15 cubicles that led to a cubicle that was the size of eight cubicles.
00:31:22 ◼ ► That was the outer waiting room reception area that presumably led to something the size of
00:31:33 ◼ ► So I, and, and that moment I had one of those, oh, these are the lies that corporations tell
00:31:39 ◼ ► As a 23 year old who was trying to get my first job, I realized that, and I had a power
00:31:46 ◼ ► book with me and I was like, did the lasers come out of the ceiling and blast the power book?
00:31:53 ◼ ► They're the lies that a lot of corporations have those, have those tenets that don't make sense
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00:34:19 ◼ ► the talk show, and you can actually start understanding what your agents are doing or at least pretend
00:34:42 ◼ ► And I don't know if it's a coincidence or not, or if it's one of those things, I forget
00:34:47 ◼ ► what the term is, but it's like recent, it's sort of like recency bias, but something else.
00:34:52 ◼ ► But like when you start shopping for something and you're comparison shopping, all of a sudden
00:34:58 ◼ ► My wife and I noticed this, I remember 20 some years ago when we needed to shop for baby
00:35:09 ◼ ► And there's, and then while we're thinking about this at like month, I don't know, seven
00:35:31 ◼ ► Do they look, and I'm like, I'm not going to be a weirdo, but I'm like, do they look happy
00:35:43 ◼ ► So I don't know if it's like that with this retro computing, but it seems like I, you, me
00:35:59 ◼ ► It's called like the way mine, there was an Apple extended keyboard and mine, which is only
00:36:21 ◼ ► Because we were going back and forth about some of the weird layout decisions that happened
00:36:26 ◼ ► And some of that was picked up from the Apple II and the Apple IIc that I've got behind me
00:36:33 ◼ ► And there's just like weird, because keyboard layouts have sort of settled down now, but
00:36:39 ◼ ► And so we were talking about weird things on keyboards and how I was talking about how I
00:36:48 ◼ ► She, she looked at me like I was crazy because her keyboard at work has the number pad.
00:37:02 ◼ ► And I learned to type in programs in basic, which had lots of numbers, entirely using the
00:37:07 ◼ ► one, one to nine, zero at the top row of the keyboard to the point that I can, I can type
00:37:29 ◼ ► And I mentioned the Commodore pet and I said, and I think that was when we had that moment
00:37:33 ◼ ► of the, the two, the quote mark is shift two, which I have since come to find because we've
00:37:40 ◼ ► been talking about retro computing in public is actually quite common on European keyboards
00:37:51 ◼ ► And my first computer keyboard was the Commodore pet, not the little teeny tiny metal one, but
00:38:28 ◼ ► Like depending on what device you had, if you had an Atari or a C64 or an Apple or a TRS-80,
00:38:39 ◼ ► The reason why I think it's so fun to hear from people, even if they're very angry with
00:38:42 ◼ ► us about that period is because it's been so long that it was just two of something, Mac
00:38:57 ◼ ► Basically, it was Apple, Commodore, Atari, Sinclair, and the, and the variants of that TRS-80.
00:39:06 ◼ ► There were so many, there were so many different computers that, that were all different and
00:39:15 ◼ ► Like, in fact, that was the thing that came up over the last couple of weeks is it turns
00:39:23 ◼ ► It turns out that yes, the Commodore people hated Apple II people and the Atari people hated
00:39:30 ◼ ► But what I did not know is that the Commodore people and the Atari people really, really hated
00:39:45 ◼ ► And I had no idea because again, I was not even paying attention because I had an Apple
00:40:01 ◼ ► And it turns out that the brilliant thing that Apple did, because like in California, Apple
00:40:07 ◼ ► gave a computer to every school in California, in California, everybody got an Apple II.
00:40:11 ◼ ► You hear the, the Commodore and Atari people talk and they hated the Apple II because it
00:40:19 ◼ ► And I thought, oh yeah, if it's the computer, that's your homework, then using an Apple II
00:40:26 ◼ ► And, and then the computer that you mess around with and play games on at home is the fun thing.
00:40:50 ◼ ► And there's, there's all sorts of technical things people are talking about where the Commodore
00:41:06 ◼ ► And I think it's sort of, but that the Apple II, I think almost everybody's fighting over
00:41:24 ◼ ► It's not like the Apple II, it's not, it's not like the Mac at all, like the Mac is to PC
00:41:34 ◼ ► But the Apple II platform was so much better for everything else, for actual quote unquote
00:41:50 ◼ ► And I mean, and then, and like Apple II was good for games, but I think you could also say
00:41:56 ◼ ► that the Apple II was like kind of overpowered for games because that wasn't really what it
00:42:08 ◼ ► So, and, and whereas the C64, you know, it was probably on your TV at home and very conducive
00:42:17 ◼ ► What was the, the, it was like a three in one, like a suite that for the Apple II with a word
00:42:34 ◼ ► I did a fantasy baseball league when I was a senior in high school or maybe when, maybe
00:42:55 ◼ ► And I think about it now and I can't even picture what that spreadsheet looked like because it
00:43:03 ◼ ► But I think that specific point of the keyboard layouts really amplifies the sort of anything
00:43:13 ◼ ► And even on the Mac into the very early nineties, the first keyboard I owned with my Mac LC that
00:43:28 ◼ ► A, I had the four at the, instead of an upside down T, the arrow keys were four in a row up,
00:43:36 ◼ ► So left and right made sense to each other, but up and down had no spatial relationship to
00:43:42 ◼ ► And, but to the, they were to the right of the space bar, but then in between them in the
00:43:47 ◼ ► space bar was the escape key or, or maybe it was back to, but some of the keyboards had the back
00:43:53 ◼ ► tick there and some had escape there because they didn't, it was a smaller compact keyboard.
00:44:05 ◼ ► And then to the left of it might've been back tick, but then the way that escape goes above that
00:44:41 ◼ ► Which was an all in one and didn't have graphics mode, which made it really kind of unsuitable
00:44:49 ◼ ► It had a weird shifted character set that you could use to make graphics, but they were not
00:45:06 ◼ ► So Jack Tramiel, who was the founder of Commodore, he started Commodore as an importer to Toronto
00:45:27 ◼ ► And it seems to me that as Commodore became a computer company, Jack Tramiel had a comfort
00:45:39 ◼ ► And then hearing from the Europeans about how that actually is a shift for shift to, for a
00:45:46 ◼ ► quote mark, makes sense to them, I think Jack Tramiel, with his whole company founded on Eastern
00:45:55 ◼ ► And, and it also speaks to the fact that Commodore, one of the reasons, like somebody got really
00:46:05 ◼ ► I'm like, dude, I was, I was, I was being nice and, and, and sort of light, lightly making
00:46:18 ◼ ► like make a different version for a different country with a different keyboard layout.
00:46:23 ◼ ► So like in the U S that shift to quote shift two was so bizarre, but I think Jack Tramiel
00:46:30 ◼ ► was like, I'm only doing one and I'm going to go with the Czechoslovakian keyboards that
00:46:48 ◼ ► So the double and single quotes were on totally different keys on the number row, but there
00:47:07 ◼ ► And again, if you are using a keyboard with a language that has all of those extra characters,
00:47:11 ◼ ► like somebody from Germany sent me a picture and it's, they've got the S at, which is the
00:47:16 ◼ ► It's like, it totally makes sense that you would do that instead of what we have to do,
00:47:33 ◼ ► And I think it goes to the Commodore ethos, not just at the Czechoslovakian keyboards imported
00:47:37 ◼ ► to Toronto, but to the idea that they weren't going to make a bunch of variants of this thing.
00:47:44 ◼ ► It's going to, they're going to make one and they're going to sell it everywhere in the world.
00:47:55 ◼ ► but literally the keyboard was not on the radar because they're saving money everywhere they can.
00:48:24 ◼ ► It's almost exactly the relationship, the relationship between the Commodore 64 and the Apple 2e is almost exactly the relationship between Meta's Quest headsets and the Vision Pro.
00:48:39 ◼ ► And, and Drang, Drang was the smart one who figured out that yes, when the Commodore 64 debuted in 1982,
00:48:47 ◼ ► And I just, you know, I'm used to, I'm so used to when I look up, what did that cost when it came out?
00:48:54 ◼ ► And because I write about Apple, and I've written about Apple professionally for 22 years, in the era I've been writing about Apple, when a computer comes out and it costs $999, and it doesn't get updated for three years, like the Retina MacBook Pro a couple years ago, guess how much it costs three years later when everything's cheaper?
00:49:30 ◼ ► And Dr. Drang pointed out on Mastodon that it quickly got reduced in price, and it was like $200 by like 1983 and into 84 when he bought one.
00:49:43 ◼ ► Yeah, it's like the VIC-20 was like Commodore's version of Apple selling a two-year-old iPhone at a lower price.
00:50:04 ◼ ► And $200-ish without a monitor, but you can hook it up to your TV, so you didn't need a monitor, sounds exactly like about what I remember probably pitching my parents on.
00:50:15 ◼ ► Because as much as, and I've told this story before, but I'll repeat it here, I didn't have a computer in my house at the time.
00:50:20 ◼ ► I had an Atari 2600 for games, but my parents would not buy me a computer because, and I have to say, in hindsight, possibly not wrong out of the fear that if they did, that I would never leave the house.
00:50:33 ◼ ► Even though my other friends were arguing to their parents, I want to get a $1,000 computer, and they're like, all you're going to do is play games.
00:50:52 ◼ ► And like I told you earlier, play touch football or pick up baseball and stuff like that.
00:50:56 ◼ ► I don't know that I never would have left the house, but I certainly would have left the house less.
00:51:00 ◼ ► Yeah, I definitely did leave the house, but not as much as I would have if I didn't have a computer at home.
00:51:07 ◼ ► So while if I had somehow, at the age of 10, become independently wealthy and could have bought myself a computer, I 100% would have bought an Apple IIe.
00:51:15 ◼ ► If my parents said, fine, we'll buy you a Commodore 64, I would have said, yes, let's go get it right now.
00:51:21 ◼ ► And that is, I mean, leaving aside the, I mean, I think that the thing that we aren't talking about as much, and as a kid, you're maybe less aware of, is there definitely is a means story here.
00:51:34 ◼ ► Which is, the kids, the kids with Apple IIs, like my dad was an orthodontist, like he got, I had, I had, I had a computer and then I had a different computer.
00:51:42 ◼ ► And the 64 and the VIC-20, more people could afford, they were more affordable and they use your TV instead of having to also buy a monitor on top of that.
00:51:52 ◼ ► So like, there are so many reasons that that's why I tried to say nice things about the VIC-20 is like the VIC-20 was, was accessible in a way that the Apples weren't.
00:52:05 ◼ ► They were all amazing and good and fun and I would have taken any of them and I'm interested in hindsight in all of them.
00:52:13 ◼ ► It was a magical era because it was all new and there were no rules and there was no dominant force.
00:52:21 ◼ ► Even though one of the things I find curious about this sort of trip down memory lane and everybody fighting or very, very, it's a very fun argument of everybody arguing for the one that they like the most.
00:52:33 ◼ ► Not one person in the whole thread has chimed in and said, what was the best was the IBM PC.
00:52:39 ◼ ► Nobody, not one person because it really didn't, for as dominant as it became, it had absolutely no mind share anywhere amongst kids.
00:53:36 ◼ ► were in offices and I think that Microsoft's plan was to get clones out there and then to
00:53:41 ◼ ► But there was a, there was a lull in there where that was not a, a device for the, for, for the
00:53:47 ◼ ► I remember because I didn't, I might've remembered the same thing even if I had a computer, but
00:54:39 ◼ ► They were, TRS 80 was felt, it was really primitive, but he had these weird games that I'd never
00:54:45 ◼ ► And then I remember he did get an Apple two at some point and we went over there and we're
00:54:56 ◼ ► I remember the only kid I knew had a PC in the house was my friend Mark and he, Mark had
00:55:02 ◼ ► He'd, he'd been in first grade with us and then he went away for a few years cause his dad's
00:55:12 ◼ ► But he, his dad was like a, some kind of mechanical engineer or civil engineer of some sort.
00:55:18 ◼ ► Like he worked on, I don't know, like dams or something like structural integrity of things.
00:55:22 ◼ ► Probably something Drang would, would be familiar with and had a PC in the house for work purposes.
00:55:28 ◼ ► And I remember one time Mark and me were writing something like a story, like a, I don't know,
00:55:43 ◼ ► He was like, yeah, this sucks, but it was better than writing it by hand or using a typewriter.
00:56:01 ◼ ► That was an era really, if these platforms weren't established and as a kid, if you didn't know
00:56:07 ◼ ► somebody like I, there was a guy I knew who wasn't a close friend, but he was kind of a
00:56:14 ◼ ► And I remember at lunch one time we went over to his house because he was literally across
00:56:19 ◼ ► And I don't think we were supposed to leave the campus, but we did it because he was across
00:56:23 ◼ ► And, and it was like entering a parallel universe because he had a Mattel and television.
00:56:28 ◼ ► Ah, and I had an Atari 2600 and some of my friends had the 2600 and this was the, the competing
00:56:37 ◼ ► And it, I mean, it really was like, I, I couldn't understand what I was seeing because it was like
00:56:56 ◼ ► past, but that was one of the really genuinely delightful things of being about being on the
00:57:10 ◼ ► And it did get, by the time, again, by the time I got out of college, like there were only
00:57:20 ◼ ► I remember they got a, a Timex Sinclair, which was like a little, I want to say $50 computer.
00:57:31 ◼ ► But I remember somebody brought one into the school and everybody was just like, what is
00:57:41 ◼ ► And the other thing is if you're young enough and you're still bearing with this episode,
00:57:47 ◼ ► But the other thing I cannot emphasize enough, it was, it wasn't just that they were different
00:57:58 ◼ ► Like there was no way to, to take something on a floppy disk from one computer and get it
00:58:22 ◼ ► Cause you just couldn't get it to read the disc or in some of the cases with those early
00:58:26 ◼ ► PCs, the tape, cause some of them, because floppy disk drives were so expensive that they'd
00:58:31 ◼ ► use a cassette tape using the same tapes that you'd listen to music on would be just have
00:58:43 ◼ ► And maybe they were slightly higher quality tapes, but yeah, not the most, but you, there
00:58:53 ◼ ► The programs were, if the same game was available on both platforms, it's because an entirely
00:59:04 ◼ ► There was no possible way to recompile a game or to use some kind of library to port a game
00:59:33 ◼ ► was his, that was one of his jobs is he was a whiz kid and they would give him games from
00:59:44 ◼ ► And he just had to remake the game and ideally it would behave exactly the same, but it didn't
00:59:56 ◼ ► but you could, you know, learning a basic program, you could get away with it more or less across
01:00:02 ◼ ► And sometimes if you bought like a magazine that would give you the basic program to type
01:00:09 ◼ ► They might have like a note that would say, you know, on the Commodore, you have to do this.
01:00:14 ◼ ► There might be like some kind of remark, like on an Apple, here's the difference in the program.
01:00:44 ◼ ► I mean, literally a toy company and just say like, yeah, we're going to, we'll, we'll all
01:01:05 ◼ ► Sun up to sundown with nutritious breakfasts on the go lunches, premium dinners and guilt-free
01:01:34 ◼ ► So, but instead of sending you like a box of ingredients and you make a full meal, these
01:01:42 ◼ ► That's like a little bit of plastic and a, uh, uh, airtight seal and the whole meal is already
01:02:02 ◼ ► You pick up a lot of like higher end grocery stores, like pre-made meals that are fresh.
01:02:51 ◼ ► in a bunch and they, if you think it's going to taste like something, that's what it tastes
01:03:00 ◼ ► And for me, frankly, as a lazy person who does not want to spend time preparing my lunch,
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01:03:34 ◼ ► That's code talk show 50 off at factor meals dot com slash talk show 50 off for 50% off plus
01:04:14 ◼ ► When is the previous time that Apple has sued or made a legal fuss out of somebody in the
01:04:20 ◼ ► So what happened for anybody who's not paying attention is Apple filed a lawsuit a week ago
01:04:24 ◼ ► or a week plus against somebody who I'd never heard of who's not really well known and doesn't
01:04:31 ◼ ► Michael Racka, Miati, Ramassati and John Prosser of Front Page Tech, a YouTuber who's I've linked
01:04:42 ◼ ► to him before and he had a series of three videos showing recreations of what he what was then called
01:04:50 ◼ ► iOS 19 now iOS 26 what we now call liquid glass including one video that showed the not just the
01:04:58 ◼ ► liquid glass but like the updated camera UI which putting the liquid glass aside is a major overhaul
01:05:06 ◼ ► right just sort of blueprint wise of how is the camera app organized where instead of all these
01:05:11 ◼ ► options at the bottom of modes to script switch through iOS 26 camera app just has photo and video
01:05:18 ◼ ► and you just start from there regular video regular photo and then once you're in photo then this sort
01:05:24 ◼ ► of sub modes it's sort of a hierarchy of modes and I think it's I think that's pretty clever but he
01:05:30 ◼ ► showed that in a recreation and like two weeks ago Apple filed a lawsuit yeah when's the last time you
01:05:38 ◼ ► can remember somebody getting sued I mean the the two events that come to mind are Gizmodo finding
01:05:47 ◼ ► iPhone 4 in a bar and think secret yeah so do you remember so think secret was a website that was an
01:06:00 ◼ ► Apple rumor website and Apple sued it in what 2005 I think yeah and said that it was violating trade
01:06:11 ◼ ► secrets and that was actually there was a settlement a couple years later think secret basically agreed
01:06:17 ◼ ► to cease publication it was a it was one guy it was a guy Nicholas Nicholas Ciarelli yes but he went
01:06:23 ◼ ► by Nick Diplume on the internet which is always hilarious so basically they just sued him out of existence
01:06:29 ◼ ► essentially yeah and and what they're trying to do with I mean with Prosser is basically say we want
01:06:36 ◼ ► you to be barred from ever reporting about things about Apple secrets ever again now Prosser to be
01:06:42 ◼ ► fair seems to have pivoted away from being a rumor guy and trying to do other stuff with his channel he
01:06:48 ◼ ► sort of used the rumors to get some notice and he's trying to kind of paddle away from that possibly
01:06:54 ◼ ► in part because he doesn't have very good sources most of the time if this is what he has to do
01:06:59 ◼ ► allegedly to get sources then it would be a good time to pivot or it would have been a good time to
01:07:05 ◼ ► pivot before this happened it sounds like this sort of maybe fell in his lap a little bit but I don't
01:07:10 ◼ ► know I mean when I was in grad school they made us take a journalism law class because they didn't want
01:07:17 ◼ ► to create journalists who would who would break the law and be sued and for us to know our rights and one of the
01:07:22 ◼ ► things that they hammered home about was along with libel and things like that right one of them was
01:07:27 ◼ ► about inducing somebody to commit a crime in order to get you information that was the the bright line
01:07:35 ◼ ► that was drawn is like if somebody comes to you and says I got the Pentagon papers here you say thank
01:07:39 ◼ ► you very much but if you call a call you go to somebody's house and knock on the door and say hey
01:07:44 ◼ ► I got I got I got ten thousand dollars if you bring me the Pentagon papers out of the Pentagon
01:07:48 ◼ ► you can't do that that that you're you're you're you're asking you're paying them to commit a crime
01:07:55 ◼ ► and that's not that's a bright line so what is alleged in this lawsuit is that John Prosser
01:08:03 ◼ ► said I'll pay you to break into your friend's phone and show me what's there now John Prosser
01:08:09 ◼ ► says that that isn't quite right and we don't really know and there are a lot of hazy things
01:08:14 ◼ ► here about just how involved was this guy who left his phone behind did he did he really leave it
01:08:19 ◼ ► behind did did he know what was going on or was he I mean he got fired by Apple I would argue that
01:08:25 ◼ ► means that something happened that Apple was like we don't there is zero you weren't just a victim here
01:08:34 ◼ ► the bottom line is that there is somebody who is a content creator about Apple content who is being
01:08:40 ◼ ► sued by Apple for revealing secrets and I think I keep coming back to that bright line I keep coming back
01:08:47 ◼ ► to the the allegation that he said he would compensate this guy for unlocking his friend's phone and showing
01:08:54 ◼ ► him what iOS 26 looks like yeah it's really it's it's and I've dug into it I've I've become somewhat
01:09:03 ◼ ► obsessed you have nearly Nancy Drew in this thing yeah very much so and it is I mean there's while
01:09:10 ◼ ► this whole Epstein thing has reignited in national affairs me calling this sorted is is a sort of
01:09:19 ◼ ► small print lowercase s sorted compared to Helvetica black thousand point type sorted of the Epstein mess
01:09:30 ◼ ► this there's no physical harm or sex trafficking involved in this this is really just pure Apple
01:09:37 ◼ ► rumor ugliness and somebody losing a job at Apple but it is sort of sorted where especially that the
01:09:46 ◼ ► the story Apple outlines which I believe is I haven't seen anything that contradicts it and I've learned
01:09:53 ◼ ► other stuff it's basically true though that this guy I keep I even have a text type typenators shortcut
01:09:59 ◼ ► for his name Ram Ramachadi Ramasadi yeah Ramasadi was a friend of this guy Ethan Lipnick who is the
01:10:08 ◼ ► engineer at Apple who had a work phone with iOS 19 now iOS 26 on it and was close enough friends with him
01:10:16 ◼ ► that he'd stayed at his house and Apple alleges that he and Prosser conspired to wait for him to be
01:10:23 ◼ ► Lipnick to be out of the house and he'd somehow gleaned his passcode to the phone this is the part where I'm
01:10:29 ◼ ► like how do you do that if you're an Apple employee with a work phone that you know has a secret OS not just
01:10:38 ◼ ► like an app but like the whole OS and that the app it's not like going from iOS 17 to 18 where
01:10:44 ◼ ► it kind of looks the same like you could walk around using it and people wouldn't see it but when it has
01:10:50 ◼ ► like a very visually you know like it right down to entering your passcode right and who knows if the
01:10:56 ◼ ► beta in January had the liquid glass on the passcode entry screen who knows I don't know but you know like
01:11:03 ◼ ► right now today with like the beta it's like you could see on the lock screen whoa that doesn't look
01:11:08 ◼ ► like iOS or the iOS I know right so how do you get the passcode you know like somebody could stay at my
01:11:16 ◼ ► house and I do not believe that staying at my house would help them glean the passcode to my iPhone
01:11:21 ◼ ► so I put that aside you know but somehow he the story according to Apple is that he had gotten this
01:11:27 ◼ ► Lipnick's passcode waited till he was out of the house but had left this phone behind unlocked the phone
01:11:52 ◼ ► men boys teenage boys who get into making these things being able to you know here's what it looks like make let's not
01:12:07 ◼ ► recreate it and the recreations were spot on in hindsight right a lot of people after the WWDC keynote in June had to give Prosser credit whoa that stuff you showed was I mean you'd have to really like pixel peep to find things that were wrong it was like yeah he kind of showed it and conversely you could see why maybe Apple was pissed yeah right and if not for Prosser this one leak there were
01:12:12 ◼ ► A lot of people after the WWDC keynote in June had to give Prosser credit. Whoa, that stuff you showed was, I mean, you'd have to really like pixel peep to find things that were wrong. It was like, yeah, he kind of showed it. And conversely, you could see why maybe Apple was pissed.
01:12:28 ◼ ► Yeah. And if not for Prosser, this one leak, there were like, for example, the, what do you call them? The apex predator of the Apple rumors game, Mark Gurman had reported verbally on in Bloomberg on there is a new UI theme and it is based on the look of vision OS.
01:12:54 ◼ ► It's called solarium and light through glass. Yeah. Yeah. Light through glass. And Gurman's, those descriptions of it also check out in hindsight, but didn't, don't, don't have anywhere near the punch of here. Look at this. This is what it is going to look at. Screenshots in this game matter way more than a description.
01:13:17 ◼ ► So you could see why Apple pursued it, but that leads me to me. The thing that has me looking into it is that in Apple's legal filing, which Mac rumors first reported, I think last Friday night, something like that late at night. And apparently by all accounts, John Prosser found out about it when Mac rumors published the story.
01:13:39 ◼ ► Wow. Like, I do believe, I think he's since gotten in touch or Apple has gotten in touch with him. But the first that Prosser found out about it was when Mac rumors published the story. But in the legal filing, Apple included a screenshot. Like, how did Apple find out about this whole thing going on?
01:13:58 ◼ ► And according to Apple, an anonymous email came to Apple. Who had Apple? I don't know. And they included a screenshot of the email. The from is blacked out, even though it was anonymous. So I presume it was somebody using ProtonMail or something. I don't, I don't know what some anonymous email service.
01:14:17 ◼ ► I used to know there were more of them. I haven't heard of one in a while, but I'm sure there's a bunch out there. An anonymous email to Apple subject iOS 19 leaker information dash Ethan Lipnick. And then it says, I am not sure who to contact, but as a courtesy to the iOS team at Apple, I wanted to share information that I have about an employee who leaked pre-release design details.
01:14:41 ◼ ► The iOS 19 information shared by John Prosser is sourced from Ethan Lipnick. Two URLs to the first two of the three videos Prosser put. There was a FaceTime call between Prosser and Lipnick or a friend of Lipnick's, which we now know is Ramakadi, where the iOS 19 interface was dead, blah, blah, blah. He has details on the lock screen, home screen, app animations. The call was a few months ago. Prosser has video from it and shows, and that shows the iOS 19 interface.
01:15:09 ◼ ► Then it names a bunch of other people in the Mac media, some of them like 9to5Mac and somebody from Mac Rumors. I figured out who all the names are. If anybody wants to, you can look at my Mastodon account.
01:15:26 ◼ ► That they included this screenshot and they just blacked out the names, but I knew that it was Ariel. I know, I mean, I'm cursed, like it's, I know Ariel. So I just sized type to match the Ariel in the screenshot and then typed surrounding words in the commas and then tried various names.
01:15:43 ◼ ► And it wasn't just me guessing. It's also me asking around to various people in the Mac media who were like, oh, well, I heard the one name is so-and-so and it's, that doesn't fit. And then somebody else says it's so-and-so. And ooh, and I was like, oh, that seems like it's too long for the box. And then I type it in and ooh, that fits exactly.
01:16:02 ◼ ► So there's a couple other names thrown under the bus in the Mac media, which is a little weird.
01:16:07 ◼ ► Yeah, it makes me wonder. So it says Prosser has been sharing clips from the recorded FaceTime call with Apple leakers. And it makes me wonder, like, that's really interesting, right? Because this is sort of, that video clip is damning evidence.
01:16:22 ◼ ► I wonder if what Prosser was doing is like trying to prime the pump with these websites to show, basically to show his work, to say, look, this is legit. I have video from a, from an, an internal Apple phone about this. I'll show it to you. And you'll see that this, you don't have to speculate about how I know what I know. I'm not lying here. I have video. And because on one level, it seems very weird to show it to your competition.
01:16:47 ◼ ► But on another level, if you're trying to convince them that you're legitimate. And, but this is, it seems to me, this is also the pathway that tipped off whoever this tip, this tipster is about the same video, because, because that this email does not get sent. If somebody doesn't say, and this is what the filing says is somebody watched this video and said, hey, that's Lipnick's apartment.
01:17:11 ◼ ► Yeah, somebody recognized it, because it was just this Ramacotti holding the phone up to like a MacBook camera or something to show the interface, you know, his iPhone or whatever.
01:17:23 ◼ ► Yeah, whatever. But from one device to another, and it showed and somebody recognized his apartment. So says Apple. And the other thing I've found out is that somebody else who was saw the video, saw while he, this Ramacotti was scrolling through the phone, saw Lipnick's name.
01:17:41 ◼ ► saw his name, saw his name, in the phone. Oh, no. And knew Lipnick and thought this doesn't seem like something he would condone. Right. And it's an end started spread. Anyway, the op sex surrounding this original FaceTime recording was not good. Not, not good. It really, I keep saying to other people that had to, it really makes the whole signal gate thing with the Trump national security people look like it was on the up and up and well organized and thought through.
01:18:11 ◼ ► Oh, so what? We invited a guy from the Atlantic into the chat. Well, this, the way this video is circulated within the little subsphere of the Apple media that deals with anonymous leaks of upcoming features from within Apple was really bad.
01:18:28 ◼ ► I mean, this is, this is not, not my, not my direct part of the business, but why do you, why do you share that video? I mean, I'm trying to theorize you shared, established that it's real, but like that, that's like, that's like a dead secret from a, a, a key source. Like, why would you, why would you reveal it? And this is why you wouldn't is because they, they figured out who it was from. And then the part that's also really fascinating is somebody called them on it, right? Somebody named names and said, this is the, I'm going to,
01:18:58 ◼ ► I'm going to let you know that, that who this dude is, who is behind this, or, or as Apple's investigation clearly saw these dudes who are behind this. It's not just Lipnick. It's, it's his friend Ramasadi. Who's, who's, who's maybe doing this. And then if Ramasadi says, John Prosser offered me money, then they're like, oh, great. That that's inducement. Then we can sue him too. And what a, what a, I mean, look, why does Apple do this? One reason is just to remind everybody what the, what the law is and what the rules are.
01:19:28 ◼ ► I've definitely, I mean, you know, more people inside Apple than I do, but I've heard from people inside Apple who are like, this is routine. Like you have devices, you have multiple devices and some of your devices are on shipping and some of your devices are on way out.
01:19:41 ◼ ► And that it's not unreasonable for Lipnick to have an iPhone running unannounced software at his house. That's not unreasonable at all. However, I do think that a lot of Apple employees are having that moment of, okay, do I trust my friends? Do they know my passcode? Do I want my passcode on these secret devices to be different? Do I want to put them in a drawer or lock them away?
01:20:04 ◼ ► Somebody said to me, was it Mike Hurley? Maybe he said on upgrade. He said, selling a lot of safes in Cupertino this week. I think that part of the reason Apple does stuff like this is to say there are severe consequences. Like when they fired that guy and it came out in public, like last year, severe consequences.
01:20:20 ◼ ► If you don't take care of your stuff, it doesn't mean you can't take the stuff home. It means you need to know that like your friends, if they know your passcode, you can't trust them. You need to be much more diligent about this. And I do think it's also a reminder to people in the media about, about that bright line, about the difference between what somebody was asking me, like Mark Gurman, does he pay for sources? I can guarantee you he doesn't because Bloomberg would not allow it.
01:20:48 ◼ ► That's just, it wouldn't be allowed. Somebody, the Pentagon papers walk into your office, you take it, you say yes, and you publish them. But this is a reminder that anything goes is not legal.
01:21:00 ◼ ► Yeah. And I would even say further with just your point on Gurman, which is that even if somebody wanted to push back and say, well, sure, even maybe, maybe Bloomberg's rules forbid it, but how do you know he's not doing it behind the organization's back?
01:21:15 ◼ ► And my counter that you can't disprove a negative. Sure. You can't, I can't prove that he doesn't. But Gurman's remarkable, truly remarkable longevity in the Apple rumors game, I would say is the best proof that he's not paying for sources. Because if he was one, you just can't keep a stack of, of lies like that.
01:21:40 ◼ ► Yeah. Also, also, he, he's got really good security. Like he's not showing people videos of his leakers. He's got it buttoned up tight. And also now he's got such a reputation that people are coming to him and sending things to his signal account, presumably, and stuff like that as well.
01:21:55 ◼ ► But like, what I think number one is he, he, they Bloomberg would fire his ass if they found out, like he'd be out on his ear because that would be against all of their policies. And they have lots of them.
01:22:06 ◼ ► Yeah. I would, I would wager enormous sum of money that Mark Gurman has never paid for any information.
01:22:12 ◼ ► And some people will argue, oh, well, it doesn't matter. He's releasing secrets. But it does, how it happens matters. If, if, if information comes across the transom and especially if you can verify it and publish it, like it's not a game that I'm in, but like it's a legitimate game.
01:22:26 ◼ ► There is a line that you can cross though, where you're, you're actively approaching people. And in this case, it's not even actively approaching an Apple employee and trying to offer them money to reveal secrets. It's, it's actively, if this allegation is true, to be clear, he actively approached somebody who's not an Apple employee and offered to pay them to break into a friend's phone to reveal secrets that the friend had.
01:22:51 ◼ ► Right. That's, that is inducement, not just to commit a leak from Apple secrets, but to commit a crime because you're breaking into somebody else's phone, phone security.
01:23:01 ◼ ► Right. Even if it's not paying for it, I think, and again, I didn't take the college course in journalistic ethics, but there is a difference too, between somebody coming up to you, say, I have the Pentagon papers. Would you like to see them versus I know how to get the, I know how to get the Pentagon papers.
01:23:24 ◼ ► It's a, it's a less bright line, but it's still an issue is if you, is that inducement. That was the thing that we were always told is, are you in, are you causing this to happen?
01:23:33 ◼ ► Are you trying to convince people to do this thing, to break the, to break the law or break the rules of their employment versus did they decide to do this and are passing it to you and you're the conduit?
01:23:44 ◼ ► And it may seem like a, like a, an arbitrary difference, but at least the way I was taught that that's kind of the difference is if it ends up in my lap and it's newsworthy, I will print it.
01:23:55 ◼ ► But if it, but, you know, that's not the same as trying to bribe somebody to give you secrets.
01:24:01 ◼ ► It's just my, my self taught and self learned gleaned code of journalistic ethics would be way.
01:24:08 ◼ ► I'm not really, I don't want rumors of Apple stuff anyway, but, but you know, something like that.
01:24:14 ◼ ► But if it was something maybe so big that I would want interest in it and somebody said, I know how to get it.
01:24:20 ◼ ► I would say, if you had it, I would be interested, but I'm not going to tell you what to do.
01:24:29 ◼ ► Like I, it's not just me like worrying that I'm being taped or that our chat or whatever it is, is being recorded or screenshotted.
01:24:41 ◼ ► And if somebody told me I could steal it from my roommate, I think I would, honest to God, I would say, I don't, I don't think you should do that.
01:24:50 ◼ ► Yeah, no, that's, that's, that's, you're, you're basically saying I can commit a crime and get this stuff for you.
01:25:13 ◼ ► I think that that would be one of Apple's arguments is, is, I mean, you mentioned Epstein earlier.
01:25:29 ◼ ► And people want, of course, we want to know what hardware Apple's going to do for the next year.
01:25:35 ◼ ► And that's entertaining and interesting and gives us stuff to talk about on podcasts and all of that.
01:25:45 ◼ ► And I think, no, I think it's all, I think it's mostly about entertainment more than anything else.
01:26:03 ◼ ► I remember I used to work at the same company that did Mac Week, which was back in the day,
01:26:13 ◼ ► And when you talk to Mac Week people about why they leaked this stuff, they had an answer.
01:26:34 ◼ ► I mean, it is the thinnest of tissue paper over the fact that people want to know what Apple's
01:26:44 ◼ ► And don't get me wrong, I am very grateful to have Mark Gurman Talking Points to talk about
01:27:22 ◼ ► Like I just linked yesterday to a Human Rights Watch report on the absolutely deplorable, I
01:27:35 ◼ ► And if some of the sourcing for that, it seems like Human Rights Watch talked to a lot of
01:27:43 ◼ ► But if somebody who worked for ICE broke a nondisclosure agreement they signed to be a guard in the detention
01:28:00 ◼ ► Even if you're like if you're of the political mindset that if you're in the country undocumented, you deserve what you get.
01:28:07 ◼ ► I mean, it still is without to me, without question of of at the core of journalism to report on what is going on.
01:28:19 ◼ ► Well, I'll give you an even better example that is Apple related, which is it's illegal for the people in the UK to talk about what that secret snooping provision is.
01:28:32 ◼ ► It's very clear that there are people in the UK, probably in the UK government, who saw that there was this thing that they were trying to do where they were going to get Apple.
01:28:41 ◼ ► They were going to force Apple to backdoor everything everywhere in the world if the UK wanted it.
01:28:46 ◼ ► And and because it's all secret, they're not supposed to ever even talk about it existing.
01:28:50 ◼ ► And somebody talked to the Guardian and a few other places and it got out and then it became a whole thing.
01:28:57 ◼ ► And that is a great example of something that is in the public interest because your government is doing something and they don't want you to know about it.
01:29:04 ◼ ► But a but, you know, it's technically illegal for the people who spoke off the record to the journalists to break the story, not just breaking the gag agreement or whatever it is.
01:29:15 ◼ ► The Secrets Act, not just breaking your employment agreement, but actually breaking the law to do it.
01:29:31 ◼ ► The the part of this here is it's very, very difficult so far for the government to say you can't talk about that thing.
01:29:44 ◼ ► So some of what we talked about with journalistic rules and what is inducement and all of that may seem very different in other countries.
01:29:50 ◼ ► But here in the US, like when we see stories about trials in Australia or Canada or the UK where they can't report on who was the accused or they can't report on what's going on in court.
01:30:02 ◼ ► Like that, it's completely foreign to us because it's just not the government can't say you can't report on that.
01:30:11 ◼ ► I just I'm not saying that I that I wish there weren't Apple rumors because I do kind of love them.
01:30:48 ◼ ► I think Prosser has in the past had videos about hardware, but hardware and software are different.
01:30:54 ◼ ► And the leaks come from and I think this is why, for example, we know, I mean, quote unquote, no.
01:31:01 ◼ ► But I mean, I would I would bet really good money that there is going to be a remarkably thin iPhone added to the lineup this year.
01:31:09 ◼ ► And it's already now in July of 2025, seemingly very clear that it's probably going to be a foldable phone that that it builds on this super thin ability because a foldable when unfolded is super thin.
01:31:28 ◼ ► Obviously, whatever technology is allowing and engineering advances are allowing Apple to build the super thin phone this year is similar to minus the hinge.
01:32:09 ◼ ► And I mean, I made a joke a moment ago about the case manufacturers, but it's not a joke.
01:32:13 ◼ ► Like part of doing business in that environment is things like saying, I need to know the shape of the iPhone so I can make my cases.
01:32:20 ◼ ► And like there's it's transactional and it's all happening in China far away from Cupertino and there's cultural differences.
01:32:48 ◼ ► It is the truest of betrayals that I think they're almost over the fact that everything is going to leak from the supply chain.
01:33:00 ◼ ► And I think that's why one of the reasons they react the way they do is this is like the ultimate betrayal to have the software leak.
01:33:13 ◼ ► They're just literally literally there were, to my knowledge, two leaks of what we now call liquid glass.
01:33:30 ◼ ► So German, I suspect, again, I don't want to get in the weeds on it, but I suspect German never saw it.
01:33:43 ◼ ► You can read, you can tell in German's writing when he's sort of trying to grasp what he was told in a way that doesn't reveal his source.
01:33:55 ◼ ► I mean, he's really good at what he does, but that is a very difficult task to try and re-describe something described to you.
01:34:05 ◼ ► But, you know, in hindsight, if you look back at his reporting from the six months prior to WWDC, did a good job.
01:34:38 ◼ ► But, you know, when you talk about like multiple nines, if if ninety nine point nine nine go to two nines of Apple engineers don't leak details.
01:35:00 ◼ ► I don't know, but maybe there weren't a thousand engineers who had access to iOS 26 before it came out.
01:35:11 ◼ ► And they and that means conversely, there are people at Apple who know people in the press, who talk to people in the media.
01:35:32 ◼ ► And I don't want to mess things up for them because I'm not trying to get things out of them.
01:35:38 ◼ ► The people I talk to at Apple are often really great at providing understanding of what's going on.
01:35:46 ◼ ► And it's stuff that Apple PR would never approve, but it benefits Apple because it benefits my understanding of what's going on.
01:36:03 ◼ ► And I get lots of texts after products are announced, not before, after they're announced.
01:36:11 ◼ ► So so when you say it's important to say when it's ninety nine point nine, like it really is.
01:36:24 ◼ ► And I don't know whether Lipnick was bad or just super lazy and sloppy about it and chose bad friends or whatever.
01:36:33 ◼ ► Well, that's the other thing is the the closing paragraph of the anonymous tipster email is I am sure that Apple has the resources to further investigate.
01:36:51 ◼ ► And so and so is one of the writers, one of the publications everybody's heard about in the Mac media.
01:37:13 ◼ ► But but and I think it's sort of and the other thing is my understanding is that young Mr.
01:37:23 ◼ ► He's very young and early in his career and comes out of this little pocket subculture of younger men who are obsessed with cleaning the software secrets of upcoming Apple products.
01:37:57 ◼ ► But, you know, I don't think, though, but apparently and I think it's true that did not involve showing for recording an entire video of it.
01:38:09 ◼ ► And if you think about the way these things usually come out, it's usually dribs and drabs and not screenshots.
01:38:18 ◼ ► Somebody will report at Mac rumors that, according to a source familiar with the situation, a messages app is going to add text effects this coming year or something like that.
01:38:51 ◼ ► But here's the other thing is I have I can't help but wonder if the nature of John Prosser being a sort of independent creator on YouTube, more like what me and you do in terms of not in terms of content, but in terms of.
01:39:10 ◼ ► The nature of the organization around it that Apple decided to name him in the lawsuit when they didn't with one of the last public things with a guy named is I wrote about this back in February.
01:39:28 ◼ ► Yeah, he leaked to Aaron Tilly, who was then at the Wall Street Journal, but then Tilly was in the round of layoffs.
01:39:39 ◼ ► It was because the Journal laid off its per company beat reporters like Aaron Tilly was the Apple beat reporter for the Journal.
01:39:49 ◼ ► And at some point in the last year, they decided we don't need one a reporter for Apple and one for Tesla and one for Microsoft.
01:40:02 ◼ ► But Apple, and there's this guy, Andrew Aud, who's named in Aud, A-U-D-E, and he issued a public apology on X, which I think he had some help with from Apple to write the apology.
01:40:18 ◼ ► During that time, I was given access to sensitive internal Apple information, including what were then unreleased products and features.
01:40:24 ◼ ► But instead of keeping this information secret, I made the mistake of sharing this information with journalists who covered the company.
01:40:30 ◼ ► I did not realize it at the time, but this turned out to be a profound and expensive mistake.
01:40:34 ◼ ► Hundreds of professional relationships I had spent years building were ruined, and my otherwise successful career as a software engineer was derailed, and it will likely be very difficult to rebuild it.
01:40:46 ◼ ► I sincerely apologize to my former colleagues who not only worked tirelessly on projects for Apple, but worked hard to keep them secret.
01:40:55 ◼ ► I think he probably means certainly the part about it not being worth it and having derailed his career.
01:41:03 ◼ ► But it's very curious, though, that him issuing that apology resulted in Apple saying, let's just dismiss the lawsuit and the lawsuit was over.
01:41:16 ◼ ► And, you know, and maybe the difference is just that Tilly, of course, as a journalist at the Wall Street Journal, much like Bloomberg, never paid the guy, never offered to pay him or induced him.
01:41:53 ◼ ► And John Prosser is some guy on the Internet somewhere, according to this, in like upstate Pennsylvania near the New York border out in the middle of nowhere on a wide spot on the road, apparently, that he lives in.
01:42:24 ◼ ► Of course, it was easier to sue Nick Diplume and think secret than it would be to sue the Wall Street Journal.
01:42:34 ◼ ► Also, though, yeah, I think also allegations of offers of compensation, this was an easy call for them to make in that case.
01:42:55 ◼ ► He intimated that maybe this would be something that would be successful for him over time, but I didn't offer him any money.
01:43:09 ◼ ► And that's the sad truth of something like this, is you've got Apple and a guy at the wide spot in the road in Pennsylvania.
01:43:22 ◼ ► I feel like John Prosser will be lucky to apologize and say he won't cover Apple leaks anymore and keep his channel.
01:43:44 ◼ ► Leaving aside his, again, his shtick, which I don't like, but like whatever, if it works for some people, it does.
01:43:51 ◼ ► One of the biggest corporations in the world versus just a random guy in a field in Pennsylvania, that's brutal.
01:44:03 ◼ ► And if any of us screwed up like that, if the allegations are true, I mean, it would be easy for Apple.
01:44:12 ◼ ► I mean, that's the sad truth about our system is like any of us, if somebody really wanted to make our lives miserable, they could do it.
01:44:48 ◼ ► I'm just saying that all we know now is Apple's side of the story, which comes from their investigation into their employee, which I suspect gave them a lot because it was a work phone.
01:44:58 ◼ ► So probably there's not much in there in terms of what was revealed that they don't know.
01:45:15 ◼ ► And I wonder if that is like, you need to cooperate with us because you could be in trouble like criminally.
01:45:20 ◼ ► This guy who I've never heard of and everything I've heard since only makes him look even worse with regard to unrelated incidents in the past.
01:45:36 ◼ ► The one that he got to tell Apple involves him betraying a friend whose house he was at.
01:45:41 ◼ ► So looking at using fine my to find out when his friend was far away so he could be betrayed.
01:45:46 ◼ ► So I'm just saying in Prosser's favor in terms of Prosser saying, oh, this is not true there.
01:45:54 ◼ ► But I'm willing to give some credence to Prosser on this in so far as that the other person involved is not reliable or trustworthy.
01:46:08 ◼ ► Oh, and by the way, before I go to a commercial break, what's the passcode on your phone again, Jason?
01:46:32 ◼ ► At that point, look, seriously, is there somebody who uses 0-0-0-0-8-2 as their passcode?
01:46:45 ◼ ► And in the Oval Office, we're the finest photographers in the world, still photographers in the world.
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01:49:37 ◼ ► I was guessing that the public beta would come out tomorrow, but maybe later in the week.
01:50:07 ◼ ► Those showstoppers are often like, oh, if you've got an iPhone 13 mini, it locks up when you install it.
01:50:15 ◼ ► And it's, oh, nobody at Apple was still using an iPhone 13 mini or whatever the configuration is.
01:50:29 ◼ ► And he's an idiot who's been running the developer betas on his phone, iPad, and watch since the day of the keynote.
01:50:48 ◼ ► And there might be other ones, but the Hermes models were the, and you can kind of understand why that's sort of a niche that maybe wouldn't get caught before the beta was released.
01:51:00 ◼ ► He, the, the, the bug manifests itself as the watch getting overheated and wouldn't charge because it got too hot.
01:51:10 ◼ ► But you, after beta 3 came out, he couldn't get beta 3 to install because the phone would be dead with no battery.
01:51:18 ◼ ► And when he'd put it on a charger, even just charging it, it would overheat and stop charging.
01:51:30 ◼ ► He was, he's recently, he's 21, but hadn't learned to drive because he was under the impression as a 16, 17 year old that by the time he was out of college,
01:51:47 ◼ ► I think that's much like Stanley Kubrick anticipating truly intelligent computers by the year 2001.
01:51:58 ◼ ► I think, I think waiting until you're 21 to 20, or I forget, I guess he started learning at 20 and got his license at 21 is much more soothing as a parent
01:52:13 ◼ ► My parents loved that I learned to drive at college and they didn't have to deal with it at all.
01:52:35 ◼ ► I went, I got my dad to drive me over there and I took the written test to get the permit, failed it terribly.
01:52:52 ◼ ► But as a 16 year old with my license, instantly I was like, the day I got the license, I passed the test.
01:53:06 ◼ ► And I immediately took it down to farm country, a couple miles away from where I was on a little two lane road and just put the pedal to the metal to see how fast the car could actually go.
01:53:34 ◼ ► But anyway, what my son was doing, he realized that the air conditioning in the car, if he mounted the watch in front of it, would cool it down and keep it and it would get a charge.
01:53:52 ◼ ► Just put it in the freezer and we'll snake a USB cable into the freezer in the refrigerator.
01:54:02 ◼ ► Except it turns out, I don't know what temperature a freezer is typically at, but obviously it's under 32 degrees.
01:54:20 ◼ ► And the wife, it turns out we get a pretty good Wi-Fi, a good enough signal of Wi-Fi in our fridge, in our refrigerator.
01:54:27 ◼ ► The overheating gets to fight it out with the fridge and you end up at a pretty good temperature.
01:55:50 ◼ ► I think it's kind of sad that Apple is reacting to people on Twitter and toning this down after
01:55:58 ◼ ► One thing you and I know, people within Apple, while they don't comment on it, all the way up
01:56:02 ◼ ► to the very highest levels of the company, the type of people who previous years might have
01:56:09 ◼ ► been on my WWDC talk show, are very well aware of what people on blogs and social media are
01:56:40 ◼ ► was like first thing you do when you wake up in the morning before you even take your shower
01:57:10 ◼ ► Before you get to, oh, Apple's reacting to what the commentary on Twitter or Threads or Blue
01:57:35 ◼ ► When you can't read the name of the song that's playing in the music app, that's a bug.
01:57:46 ◼ ► I mean, I'm sure somebody has done very close analysis, but I have been looking at it and
01:58:26 ◼ ► In beta 3, when you scroll under something under something else, if you keep on going, it
01:58:40 ◼ ► And I think this points to a level of brittleness in this design, that they are trying to do some
01:58:45 ◼ ► incredibly complicated things to get this design to work, that maybe that means the design
01:58:59 ◼ ► Like in the Mac menu bar, I feel like they're doing some things where dynamically, if the
01:59:23 ◼ ► If there's one thing I knew, and I think it always has to be this way, and we know, I keep
01:59:49 ◼ ► And Johnny Ive took over software like at the end of the iOS 6 year in like December and
02:00:20 ◼ ► The super thinnest weight of Helvetica, Noia, like male for some reason in beta 1 from WWDC.
02:00:42 ◼ ► It's obviously, you know, and that's because they only had six months before WWDC to even
02:00:58 ◼ ► If he hadn't, Forstall was forging ahead with an iOS 7 that was going to be like iOS 5 and
02:01:17 ◼ ► But at a certain point, there's aspects of this that feel like, boy, this could use a whole
02:01:24 ◼ ► But it's the forcing function of we need to announce it and say it's going to ship in September
02:01:32 ◼ ► But I kind of feel, and you mentioned this, the thing about liquid glass, and I keep seeing
02:01:36 ◼ ► people suggest, why don't they just give people a slider in settings that would go less to more
02:01:47 ◼ ► Like at the left edge would be more frosted and therefore less transparent and more legible
02:01:54 ◼ ► for anything printed on top of the glass in the UI and go all the way to the right and everything
02:02:30 ◼ ► And I think I actually just, I've been, as we've been talking, I've been playing around
02:02:42 ◼ ► So one of the things that happened in this cycle is people are like, oh, well, that's it.
02:02:53 ◼ ► And they're working toward a ship date that is September, not toward a ship date that was
02:03:01 ◼ ► But when I scroll now, like weird, like stuff gets, as I'm scrolling up in music, like stuff
02:03:08 ◼ ► comes in almost grayed out and then it fades into color, which means that the player is
02:03:24 ◼ ► And, and yes, it is frustrating because you would want all of these mistakes ideally to
02:03:34 ◼ ► Again, this is that thing is they're trying to make this so that it's always legible because
02:03:38 ◼ ► we have powerful computers that are compositing all this stuff and they should be able to
02:04:03 ◼ ► And as you're scrolling through a webpage, all the text in your toolbar turns white and then
02:04:27 ◼ ► And what you really need is to come up with some more upfront rules about this stuff instead
02:04:49 ◼ ► And I think it all looks cool, but at the end of the day, it has to be cool and usable.
02:05:02 ◼ ► And I suspect that if they can't solve the problem by the end of the summer, everything's
02:05:12 ◼ ► And I know from talking to a couple of developers that some of the stuff that they talked about
02:05:15 ◼ ► at WWDC in their sessions about it, I think involving shaders in particular, aren't, or maybe
02:05:27 ◼ ► And that the shaders is a big part of both the coolness and the control over legibility,
02:05:45 ◼ ► And again, beta, it's all, this is why developers, this is why so many developers who have podcasts
02:06:00 ◼ ► Because I'm going to be working nonstop in a month, the month or the season of the year
02:06:32 ◼ ► I mean, at some point, maybe they could have held this for a year, but I do feel like even
02:06:36 ◼ ► in a year from now, there would be all of these issues where you've got to put it out there
02:06:50 ◼ ► And the answer often can become fairly clear, like, oh, that person's argument was right.
02:07:04 ◼ ► But I think anything like this, you got to get it out there and then start making changes
02:07:09 ◼ ► because there's no, it's a fallacy to believe that you could ship something perfect without
02:07:21 ◼ ► I'm just saying that I kind of feel like you need to put it out there and then work through
02:07:26 ◼ ► It does make for an exciting summer, especially for us as observers and commentators and not
02:07:34 ◼ ► I still have to take screenshots and then they put out a new beta that changes the whole interface
02:07:38 ◼ ► and I have to take a new set of screenshots because all the, all the interface changed.
02:07:43 ◼ ► I think a really good app to play with is Apple news because the news articles have all sorts
02:07:52 ◼ ► And that you see these things like you're talking about, like the way that like the toolbar at
02:07:57 ◼ ► the top will turn dark because it's on top, like a dark mode look because it's on top of
02:08:02 ◼ ► a photograph and it needs to kind of reverse, but it doesn't happen as you scroll past it.
02:08:07 ◼ ► It, unless you slow down, it's a really good example of that because you have this wide
02:08:13 ◼ ► variety of content that scrolls through and they're not, it's sort of a top and bottom thing that
02:08:27 ◼ ► It's very different from beta three, but they're all different and it's not related to public
02:08:42 ◼ ► And as much as Apple can play with everybody who's going to just use iOS 26 and all the
02:08:50 ◼ ► other 26 is on their existing devices when they upgrade and they hold those, Hey, we, your
02:09:06 ◼ ► So it's probably 26.1 or two, two even in November, December, where people's devices are set to
02:09:16 ◼ ► But it, September is a very important deadline because of the iPhone and the iPhones are going
02:09:30 ◼ ► Everybody else, I think this is a function of iOS seven being so dramatically different
02:09:50 ◼ ► And then Apple can push a switch, flip a switch later that then will notify people and say, Hey,
02:10:03 ◼ ► You, you get it and it needs to be, and it's going to ship on those devices and it needs
02:10:08 ◼ ► to be, even if it's going to progress and get better and they're going to fix things and
02:10:12 ◼ ► all that, it's got to be presentable because the last thing you want is some sort of narrative.
02:10:20 ◼ ► And I also like your guess that if push comes to serve and whatever the deadline in late
02:10:26 ◼ ► August is for, this is the version that is going to go on the first batch of iPhones out
02:10:38 ◼ ► But that doesn't mean that that's not going to go back to getting tweaked in developer beta
02:10:46 ◼ ► I, I, I would not be surprised at all if that's how it goes, if that there's a late beta where
02:10:51 ◼ ► they, and there's all these stories that are like, Oh, Apple's gotten rid of the clear glass
02:11:01 ◼ ► And then the first beta it ships and the first beta of the next cycle ships and it's all turned
02:11:14 ◼ ► If you, if you're still working the problem, but you don't have a solution yet, the safe
02:11:23 ◼ ► I think, I don't think that's unreasonable unless, unless they decide that it, that it's
02:11:29 ◼ ► It doesn't sound very, I mean, Apple is doing Apple right now, which is no, no, we can solve
02:11:33 ◼ ► We can, we, there's a way for us to get things as cool as they need to be, but also be legible.
02:11:53 ◼ ► And as much as liquid glass has way more than two variables and certainly not one slider,
02:11:58 ◼ ► trust me, as much as at a superficial level, you might think ultimately it really is a two
02:12:17 ◼ ► And you could argue, some people are going to argue for one extreme over the other, that
02:12:34 ◼ ► Like I think that there will always be accessibility settings you can turn on that will drop a lot
02:12:56 ◼ ► That's the, that's the thing is if everybody goes to the accessibility settings, you didn't
02:13:02 ◼ ► Like you want out of the box it to be cool, but most people to be like, I like this and
02:13:08 ◼ ► And the people, I think it's very important to people who are bugged, have a place to go
02:13:25 ◼ ► I will put a link in the show notes and I've sure I will hunt down a link that includes
02:13:51 ◼ ► an avant-garde nineties grungy or a graphic designer, Ray gun was it literally unreadable
02:14:03 ◼ ► And I was a budding graphic designer and me and my best friend at the time, it was a graphic
02:14:14 ◼ ► And the difference was he simply adored it and thought it was the best magazine that existed.
02:14:26 ◼ ► And it was cool to look at, but as a also simultaneously budding writer, I remember thinking,
02:14:35 ◼ ► I would not write for this magazine because it would bother me for my writing to be unreadable.
02:14:45 ◼ ► There are people who, you know, but the same sort of people like my former roommate and
02:14:50 ◼ ► friend who loved Ray gun exactly as it was and wouldn't have changed a goddamn thing who
02:15:16 ◼ ► You gotta be, you, and that's a tough balance to walk that they want to be, they want to be
02:15:20 ◼ ► cool, but they're also have so many users that they have to, and our smartphones are so important
02:15:26 ◼ ► to our lives that you've got to, you've got to have the ability for it to be functional
02:15:50 ◼ ► I think it's inevitable that that tick tock's going to be inundated with those videos, no matter
02:15:54 ◼ ► what Apple does, but what you don't want is for most people or tens of millions of people
02:16:02 ◼ ► The tick tocks are going to be there, but you don't want them to be so viral because people
02:16:20 ◼ ► If people will do those tick tocks, but if nobody cares, then Apple will have done okay.
02:16:24 ◼ ► But if everybody is the cool thing to do is to turn off all the liquid glass features in
02:16:41 ◼ ► But I, I, I mean, I like the impulse, honestly, as a grumpy Mac user, my big issue is I think
02:16:48 ◼ ► there's a great cycle for the Mac in terms of functionality, but it's so clear that the
02:17:06 ◼ ► Like they, they, they don't have texture that it just looks so bad and that's a shame, but
02:17:12 ◼ ► I mean, I, I've been using it and loving it and the new functional features of the Mac of
02:17:16 ◼ ► the Tahoe stuff with a spotlight and the, and the clipboard history and the changes to shortcuts
02:17:28 ◼ ► I just, I am a little bummed out that I was hoping that this would be a, maybe they have
02:17:34 ◼ ► better ideas about how the Mac should be that haven't been implemented yet, but I fear that
02:17:39 ◼ ► they just, I mean that they did the whole liquid glass and they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, liquid
02:17:46 ◼ ► And then like on the sketch pad, they had the Mac and they had like a question mark and
02:17:52 ◼ ► And that's where we are because as good as it feels on the iPhone and as okay as it feels
02:17:57 ◼ ► on the iPad, it just on the Mac, it's just a, I don't even, I mean, other than the unification
02:18:11 ◼ ► The Mac toolbar is the most other than the menu bar on the dock, which they did things too,
02:18:25 ◼ ► It's hard not to think that the, and again, there's people's opinions on Alan Dye and his
02:18:49 ◼ ► That it, you know, and it's, and if they were, they wouldn't have done lots of the stuff
02:18:59 ◼ ► It's no, it's like whoever decided this clearly isn't, isn't immersed in the Mac the way that
02:19:09 ◼ ► The toolbar is not in vogue in Apple, in Apple apps, especially ones that came over from iOS.
02:19:24 ◼ ► And I look at it, even in beta four, I look at it and think, is the person in charge of
02:19:32 ◼ ► the toolbar on Mac OS Tahoe still working on it and hasn't passed it on to be implemented
02:19:44 ◼ ► It is like literally there's no contrast between the buttons and the background except for they
02:19:52 ◼ ► I mean, forgive me, John, but I try to be really open about design because I'm like, I'm not a
02:20:00 ◼ ► I care about it, but this is like the kind of drop shadow that I would put on it in college
02:20:08 ◼ ► It's just, well, how do we deal with the fact that our buttons and our toolbar are exactly
02:20:20 ◼ ► And I think it's partially because they didn't understand how important the toolbar is.
02:20:25 ◼ ► In fact, now I'm ranting here, but I'll just say, have you ever recently gone to edit toolbar
02:20:55 ◼ ► It feels very much like their whole portions of the Finder, which again, to your point, these
02:21:11 ◼ ► And that's what I mean when I say the Mac, like they're adding cool new stuff to the Mac.
02:21:29 ◼ ► I just don't think you get it, is the way that the toolbar buttons look like they float
02:21:48 ◼ ► The sidebar was really bad in the first beta and the second beta, but in the third and fourth
02:22:06 ◼ ► I mean, we're, we're turning into, both turning into John Syracuse now, but like, I ask you
02:22:13 ◼ ► Is this, are these glass buttons sitting on a, because there's no texture, there's no indication
02:22:42 ◼ ► And so they've slapped something in there that they can call liquid glass, but like whole
02:22:55 ◼ ► You could, in theory, you could just go back to the platinum theme from Mac OS 9, or you could
02:23:01 ◼ ► go back to Aqua from the first versions of Mac OS 10, or pick any of the themes from the intervening
02:23:11 ◼ ► But whatever the theme is, and we can quibble about the appeal of the theme, but the theme should
02:23:22 ◼ ► And like at a basic level on the Mac, which is unique, it's different from the other platforms.
02:23:42 ◼ ► So the menu bar is the app, the toolbar, which Apple has largely shifted to over, I would
02:23:53 ◼ ► I sort of de-emphasize the menu bar and doing things by going to the menu bar for menu commands
02:24:24 ◼ ► So clicking something in the toolbar isn't going to affect the contents of the other window.
02:24:51 ◼ ► But if the toolbar buttons look like they're in a layer above and apart from the window,
02:25:28 ◼ ► Because I think a lot of the problems here are they had a vision for Liquid Glass for these
02:25:43 ◼ ► And I keep coming back to Aqua because I think about Aqua was that it was kind of like they were
02:25:57 ◼ ► It's almost like out of the window would come these kind of bumps of glass with the toolbar
02:26:20 ◼ ► And of course, me and you feel like the Mac should be treated separately or differently
02:26:34 ◼ ► Liquid Glass on the Mac should be complementary to Liquid Glass on iOS and maybe the other platforms
02:26:52 ◼ ► And your idea of, what if it was a lot more like Aqua, but with styling along the lines,
02:27:07 ◼ ► But it's still like you've got some reflective aspect of it and you're looking at a window
02:27:19 ◼ ► Yeah, it's weird because on one level, it's like, I know that the Mac is not going to get
02:27:32 ◼ ► This is the first time Apple has ever attempted a global redesign across all of its operating
02:27:48 ◼ ► iPad and iPhone to Mac have been they're importing stuff from a completely different design sensibility.
02:27:56 ◼ ► Some of it is that they're different devices, but some of it is just it's coming from a different
02:28:00 ◼ ► And so what a great opportunity this is, the 2026 OS updates with redesign for the first
02:28:11 ◼ ► And if you're going to do that and you're going to half-ass the Mac, you've missed an opportunity.
02:28:19 ◼ ► I know the iPhone is more important, but this is your opportunity to get the Mac to define
02:28:30 ◼ ► And if you let it go, it's going to be this kind of mishmash of old design and undesigned.
02:28:48 ◼ ► And I think that it's the best set of productivity features they put in Mac OS in 10 years.
02:28:54 ◼ ► And so it's very frustrating because it's like, we got clipboard history and also the toolbar
02:29:38 ◼ ► I've done a lot more of other people's podcasts in the last six months than I've done in a
02:29:48 ◼ ► And I told Mike, I was like, I never listened to a complete podcast I'm on because I just
02:30:05 ◼ ► I mean, I have known some things about your process between our talking and me doing things
02:30:15 ◼ ► Some of the some of the things I mentioned that I've never released publicly, I have shared
02:30:25 ◼ ► But it's like somebody on Mastodon said, don't ever bet against Mike getting something out
02:30:46 ◼ ► And Jason, of course, is at SixColors.com and The Incomparable and Upgrade on Relay with