Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► - From Relay, this is "Upgrade" episode 574 for July 28th, 2025.

00:00:16 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by FitBud, Zbiotics, Sentry, and ExpressVPN.

00:00:22 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow.

00:00:24 ◼   ► Hi, Jason Snow.

00:00:26 ◼   ► - Hi, Mike Hurley. How are you?

00:00:27 ◼   ► - I'm really good. I'm excited for today

00:00:29 ◼   ► because you've been telling me you're setting something up

00:00:31 ◼   ► and I don't know what it is and I'm really excited about it.

00:00:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, I finally did it.

00:00:34 ◼   ► It's not quite as expansive as I had originally planned

00:00:38 ◼   ► because of reasons, but I hope it will still be fun when we get there.

00:00:44 ◼   ► You'll be surprised and I hope everybody will have a good time

00:00:46 ◼   ► for the summer of fun.

00:00:47 ◼   ► - Summer of fun, but I have a snow talk question for you

00:00:50 ◼   ► and it comes from Steven.

00:00:51 ◼   ► Steven wants to know, "Jason, of as many books as you read,

00:00:54 ◼   ► where do you find the time?

00:00:55 ◼   ► Are you a bedtime reader?

00:00:57 ◼   ► Do you prioritize finding time to read a little every day?"

00:01:00 ◼   ► - This is a great time for this question because I was just told by Goodreads that I've reached my goal

00:01:06 ◼   ► for the year of reading 52 books.

00:01:09 ◼   ► - Jason, it's July.

00:01:11 ◼   ► - I don't like to set a goal higher than 52 because I don't like the idea of assigning myself

00:01:20 ◼   ► more than a book a week to read, but I've already read.

00:01:23 ◼   ► - How is it humanly possible to read more than one book a week?

00:01:26 ◼   ► I get maybe one a year, you know, if I'm lucky.

00:01:29 ◼   ► - Well, and this is the snow talk question.

00:01:31 ◼   ► So it's a few things.

00:01:33 ◼   ► First off, I mean, I do read, for the incomparable, we do the, all the nominated, Hugo and Nebula nominated novels,

00:01:42 ◼   ► we also read all the Hugo short fiction, which includes like five or six novellas, which are short novels and those are published as novels and they count and they're in Goodreads.

00:01:51 ◼   ► One of the tricks is that some of them are shorter than like, they're not thousand pages, I'm not reading a lot of thousand page tomes.

00:01:58 ◼   ► Um, to answer Steven's question, I am a bedtime reader.

00:02:01 ◼   ► One of the things that I, I, that is my consistent reading time is at the end of the day, uh, go to, you know, turn off the TV a little early, go to bed and have some time to read.

00:02:12 ◼   ► Also, if I, you know, wake up in the middle of the night, I'll read for a little bit before I go back to sleep.

00:02:17 ◼   ► Um, and then for me, the big one is, um, boy, I love to read on vacation.

00:02:23 ◼   ► Uh, like my memories of Hawaii, like so many of my fond memories of Hawaii are sitting on the beach, reading a book or by the pool, reading a book.

00:02:33 ◼   ► I love it.

00:02:34 ◼   ► I have a question for you, actually a sub question right now.

00:02:36 ◼   ► So sometimes if I'm re-listening to a podcast episode or maybe an album, I can kind of remember where I was when I first heard it.

00:02:46 ◼   ► Do you have that with books?

00:02:47 ◼   ► Uh, positional memory, locational memory.

00:02:50 ◼   ► I do not as much as with podcasts, but yes, I do have some of that.

00:02:53 ◼   ► I have, I, I sometimes will think, oh, that's the book I was reading on that trip.

00:02:57 ◼   ► Not always, but sometimes, sometimes it's a memorable, I reread the Goblin Emperor when we went to Maui.

00:03:04 ◼   ► I did, uh, the, so, uh, what I was going to say is after years of focusing on how do I load movies and TV shows on my iPad so I have things to watch on the plane and all of that, I've come to realize that unless it's a very, very long flight, and even sometimes then, I just prefer to read on airplanes.

00:03:31 ◼   ► I put in, I put in my, my AirPods, uh, play some music and I read until I get to my destination and that makes me very happy too.

00:03:41 ◼   ► So those are a lot of the, the, the strategies that end up having it be.

00:03:46 ◼   ► I also say, I am always amazed when I hear people talk about how many video games they play.

00:03:52 ◼   ► Right.

00:03:54 ◼   ► And you know what?

00:03:54 ◼   ► I think it's the same.

00:03:55 ◼   ► I always am prioritizing books and not video games and other people prioritize video games.

00:04:01 ◼   ► I also watched some TV shows and some movies, uh, and, and a bunch of TV shows and that's a great thing too.

00:04:08 ◼   ► And if I didn't do that, I could be playing video games or reading more books, but that's how I balance it out.

00:04:12 ◼   ► But as much as I like the idea, this is a truth about me, as much as I like the idea of playing video games, I never play video games.

00:04:20 ◼   ► That's just how it is because especially ones that are longer, because honestly, when I'm playing a video game, that's longer, I feel like I should be doing something else, which is probably watching a movie or a TV show with Lauren or it's reading a book.

00:04:32 ◼   ► So that's priorities.

00:04:34 ◼   ► That's just how it is.

00:04:35 ◼   ► So, you know, um, but that's how, that's how I have read 52 books and it's not even the end of July this year.

00:04:43 ◼   ► We'll see how many I, I read in the end, but, and sometimes there are, there are vacation spurts, right?

00:04:49 ◼   ► Where there's a bunch of them.

00:04:50 ◼   ► Then there are also times where I'm reading something and I don't have a lot of time and I'll go several weeks, uh, having not finished a book and I'll be like, oh man, oh, I'm really getting behind here.

00:05:00 ◼   ► And then that always resolves itself.

00:05:02 ◼   ► So, yeah.

00:05:03 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a question to, to open an episode of the show, it's very easy to do.

00:05:09 ◼   ► Just go to upgradefeedback.com and send in your snow talk question, just like Steven did.

00:05:14 ◼   ► Thank you, Steven.

00:05:14 ◼   ► We've got some follow-up, um, an anonymous question.

00:05:18 ◼   ► Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on.

00:05:20 ◼   ► I can do something here.

00:05:21 ◼   ► It's very special.

00:05:21 ◼   ► Are you ready?

00:05:22 ◼   ► Yes.

00:05:22 ◼   ► Follow-up.

00:05:24 ◼   ► Thank you very much.

00:05:25 ◼   ► Okay.

00:05:25 ◼   ► About six people understand that reference, but I appreciate all of them that do.

00:05:29 ◼   ► I'm, I've like, that's the sound that I play when I'm, uh, I'm, uh, I'm circling infinite loop, uh, doing, what am I doing?

00:05:37 ◼   ► Power sliding.

00:05:37 ◼   ► I'm power sliding in infinite loop.

00:05:39 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:05:40 ◼   ► Taking action.

00:05:40 ◼   ► It's a reference to the prompt number two or something.

00:05:42 ◼   ► So just.

00:05:43 ◼   ► Something like that.

00:05:43 ◼   ► Take action.

00:05:45 ◼   ► An anonymous question, uh, anonymous follow-up sender wrote in and said, when I worked at Apple, uh, iOS employees who have permission to take an iOS device with an unreleased operating system home could expense a gun safe for the express purpose of storing the iOS device when not being actively worked on.

00:06:02 ◼   ► If you didn't need good radio reception, you could also run a cable into the open safe and you'd never have to remove the phone if you wanted to.

00:06:11 ◼   ► Sadly, none of the approved safes could be locked to the cable running to the device.

00:06:16 ◼   ► Now, um, I'll just point out, this is, if this sounds familiar, not only was this, uh, feedback so funny that I read it on the talk show last week.

00:06:24 ◼   ► Cause I was on the talk show and, uh, also ATP read this.

00:06:28 ◼   ► I was listening live to ATP while I was making dinner last week.

00:06:33 ◼   ► And they're like, uh, read, uh, they're like the gun safe.

00:06:35 ◼   ► I'm like, duh, the gun safe letter, but it's still pretty cool.

00:06:38 ◼   ► This is the whole idea of how many safes got sold in Cupertino after this guy's phone was, uh, you know, used by a, uh, a malicious friend to, uh, reveal things to John Prosser.

00:06:49 ◼   ► Anyway, allegedly.

00:06:50 ◼   ► So, uh, uh, fun, fun, anonymous feedback, regardless of the fact that this person pasted this into every feedback form everywhere.

00:06:58 ◼   ► I love it.

00:06:58 ◼   ► Hey, it's good feedback.

00:06:59 ◼   ► If you've got feedback like that, you share it and then we'll share it.

00:07:02 ◼   ► Um, it reminded me of the requirements for the vision pro.

00:07:08 ◼   ► Do you remember like if you were going to be, um, taking, it's got to be in a place that's independently secured and stored in a locked location.

00:07:15 ◼   ► And yeah, it's totally like that.

00:07:17 ◼   ► I, I would recommend the people who do this, uh, construct a, a whole room that is a vault and then, uh, just go in there.

00:07:27 ◼   ► That feels complicated on, uh, with, uh, with California.

00:07:32 ◼   ► Also, did I tell you, I, I, I don't think I've ever told you this story, but, uh, so we, we got a safe for some of our personal documents.

00:07:41 ◼   ► Lauren thought it would be a good idea.

00:07:43 ◼   ► And, uh, she says that, uh, so she was in charge of this project.

00:07:47 ◼   ► So we got the safe and we put like our passports in it or whatever.

00:07:51 ◼   ► And she says, she says in hindsight, she was like, oh, well, the, the, uh, the safe says that you should probably like every, every few months open it up to air it out.

00:08:01 ◼   ► Which apparently we didn't do.

00:08:03 ◼   ► Um, and we live, we live in a place that's actually fairly damp, especially in the winter and our back bedroom where the safe was, was especially damp in the winter.

00:08:13 ◼   ► And, um, one day she opened up the safe and discovered that our passports had stuff growing all over all the pages.

00:08:20 ◼   ► Great.

00:08:21 ◼   ► No, that's really good.

00:08:22 ◼   ► That's what you, it's really, it's what you're looking for.

00:08:24 ◼   ► Well, so she cleaned, she cleaned it up and we ran it, you know, set them on a dehumidifier and did all of this stuff.

00:08:30 ◼   ► And they were still, and they have since expired and been replaced, but, but she was like, you know, will they still accept it?

00:08:36 ◼   ► And I said, of course they will, because although they look, they, they look terrible.

00:08:40 ◼   ► They look like they've been out in the bayou that they're entirely legible.

00:08:44 ◼   ► And I think they have a chip in it that they scan anyway.

00:08:46 ◼   ► Um, and so it'll be fine.

00:08:48 ◼   ► It'd just be embarrassing.

00:08:49 ◼   ► Cause you'd be like, let's bring out those filthy passports.

00:08:54 ◼   ► Uh, moldy old passports.

00:08:57 ◼   ► Anyway, so, uh, if you are going to use a safe for your stuff, uh, open it up every now and then.

00:09:04 ◼   ► And, uh, also in hindsight should have put a bunch of desiccant packets in there, but do not eat, you know, the exactly.

00:09:12 ◼   ► So, so, uh, so we don't, we don't actually use that anymore.

00:09:16 ◼   ► It was a nice idea, but, uh, cause I think it was like also a fire safe or something like that.

00:09:20 ◼   ► So if our house burned down, the documents would still be there.

00:09:23 ◼   ► Now we have a go bag because we live in California.

00:09:25 ◼   ► And, uh, so now everybody in California is supposed to have a go bag.

00:09:29 ◼   ► So just in case something happens, it could be anything, wildfire, earthquake, tsunami, no, any, who knows?

00:09:34 ◼   ► Uh, got a bag we can take.

00:09:37 ◼   ► So anyway, I love the gun safe letter and the idea that you could just, uh, Apple.

00:09:43 ◼   ► I mean, it's perfectly reasonable if you have confidential materials in your house.

00:09:46 ◼   ► They should provide them.

00:09:46 ◼   ► The, the, the, you, you, you know, yeah.

00:09:49 ◼   ► And if not, but yeah, they should just say, look, first time, well then, uh, let me get

00:09:55 ◼   ► you your safe.

00:09:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:09:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:09:58 ◼   ► You're going to need it.

00:09:58 ◼   ► Uh, there was more, uh, great discussion.

00:10:00 ◼   ► You mentioned a talk show.

00:10:01 ◼   ► You were on the talk show with John Gruber.

00:10:03 ◼   ► I've really enjoyed the episode.

00:10:04 ◼   ► Uh, you and him got into deep, a lot into more detail, uh, about the John process situation,

00:10:09 ◼   ► which is just, while wholly unfortunate for everyone involved, is going to be one of the

00:10:16 ◼   ► kind of all time stories, I think, uh, just in our little corner of the world.

00:10:21 ◼   ► It's just like a fascinating thing that has happened and is not over yet.

00:10:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:10:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:10:27 ◼   ► Ted Lasso season four has begun shooting in Kansas city.

00:10:31 ◼   ► Yes.

00:10:32 ◼   ► Now.

00:10:33 ◼   ► Okay.

00:10:34 ◼   ► Should we do it now?

00:10:35 ◼   ► Should we do us geography corner now?

00:10:37 ◼   ► Please.

00:10:37 ◼   ► Okay.

00:10:38 ◼   ► Just really quickly.

00:10:39 ◼   ► Cause Mike, Mike's original note here said has been shooting in Kansas, which I would

00:10:45 ◼   ► say Mike is a perfectly reasonable thing for a human being to assume that Kansas city is

00:10:50 ◼   ► a city in the state, us state of Kansas.

00:10:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:10:53 ◼   ► Um, it's time for us geography corner where I just say that the Kansas city that most people

00:10:58 ◼   ► have heard of is actually in Missouri and not Kansas.

00:11:01 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:11:02 ◼   ► Uh, but there is a Kansas city, Kansas.

00:11:05 ◼   ► It is essentially part of Kansas city, Missouri, uh, but across the state line, but the bulk

00:11:11 ◼   ► of like all of the city stuff that we know of as Kansas city is in Missouri.

00:11:15 ◼   ► Uh, and the people in Kansas city, I believe call Kansas city, Kansas KCK.

00:11:20 ◼   ► It's just like a shorthand for that.

00:11:21 ◼   ► There are a bunch of suburbs that of Kansas city that are in the state of Kansas.

00:11:26 ◼   ► It's right on the border there.

00:11:27 ◼   ► But, uh, this is an annoying thing that Americans, many Americans learn, which is you logically

00:11:33 ◼   ► think Kansas city was in Kansas and it's in Missouri.

00:11:35 ◼   ► It is, right?

00:11:36 ◼   ► It, it, it, it, there is a Kansas city.

00:11:38 ◼   ► Well, that's the thing.

00:11:39 ◼   ► There is a Kansas city in Kansas, but it's not the one you're thinking of.

00:11:42 ◼   ► Right.

00:11:43 ◼   ► So Schrodinger's Kansas is what we're looking at.

00:11:46 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:11:46 ◼   ► It pretty Schrodinger, Kansas.

00:11:48 ◼   ► It's a little town outside of, uh, uh, Salina, Kansas, right, right outside of there.

00:11:53 ◼   ► This is the, the Wichita lineman went through there at one point.

00:11:57 ◼   ► I'm just going to unload all of the things here anyway.

00:11:59 ◼   ► So, um, uh, and I looked and I was like, is there a river that might be, cause a lot of

00:12:05 ◼   ► parts of the U S there's a river that's the state border.

00:12:07 ◼   ► And I looked and there, there, it is actually, believe it or not, Kansas city is built on the

00:12:12 ◼   ► confluence of the Kansas and Missouri rivers.

00:12:15 ◼   ► So, okay.

00:12:16 ◼   ► It gives the states their names.

00:12:17 ◼   ► However, the border between Kansas city, Kansas and Kansas city, Missouri, it's just, it's

00:12:22 ◼   ► just a line.

00:12:22 ◼   ► There's no river there.

00:12:24 ◼   ► It's just a line.

00:12:25 ◼   ► There is a river in town, but it is.

00:12:27 ◼   ► And North of Kansas city, it forms the state border, but South of there, they're like,

00:12:30 ◼   ► nah, we're just going to draw a line.

00:12:33 ◼   ► So anyway, that's your Kansas talk for today.

00:12:37 ◼   ► I look forward to the followup.

00:12:38 ◼   ► I've already had some great real time followup from Caleb and the discord, not to be confused

00:12:43 ◼   ► of Arkansas city, Kansas, I guess, which could also be our Kansas city, Kansas, our Kansas

00:12:47 ◼   ► city, Kansas.

00:12:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:12:48 ◼   ► That's true.

00:12:49 ◼   ► Well, yes, we have a state called Kansas in the state called Arkansas that's built our

00:12:52 ◼   ► Kansas.

00:12:52 ◼   ► That's another, I think.

00:12:55 ◼   ► And it's Kansaw.

00:12:56 ◼   ► It's Kansaw.

00:12:57 ◼   ► Yes.

00:12:57 ◼   ► Kansaw city, Kansaw.

00:12:59 ◼   ► And I'll, I'll throw in just for our friends in Missouri who are feeling really good right

00:13:05 ◼   ► now that I had a friend from elementary school who was in the Marine Corps, I want to say.

00:13:11 ◼   ► And, and he was in Missouri and his parents referred to him as being in misery.

00:13:18 ◼   ► And I always thought that was pretty funny.

00:13:19 ◼   ► So, uh, yeah.

00:13:22 ◼   ► From variety.

00:13:23 ◼   ► So from variety, yes.

00:13:25 ◼   ► Returns to Richmond taking on his biggest challenge yet, coaching a second division women's football

00:13:31 ◼   ► team throughout the course of the season.

00:13:33 ◼   ► Ted and the team learned to leap before they look taking chances they never thought they

00:13:38 ◼   ► would.

00:13:38 ◼   ► Some of this we've heard before.

00:13:40 ◼   ► Um, listener Larry sent in some local news from Kansas city, which shows more photos of

00:13:45 ◼   ► the show being shot all over.

00:13:47 ◼   ► Um, deadline reports that this is the beginning of another three season arc of the show.

00:13:52 ◼   ► Some actors assigned deals for this time.

00:13:54 ◼   ► And also, um, Ted's son has been recast, um, recast with an option to make the son, uh, he's

00:14:03 ◼   ► recurring in season four, but an option to make him a regular cast member in season five, which is an

00:14:11 ◼   ► interesting little quirk too.

00:14:13 ◼   ► Yep.

00:14:14 ◼   ► Because they needed a kid who could play football.

00:14:16 ◼   ► Oh, that was why, that was why they did the recasting because that's apparently going

00:14:22 ◼   ► to be a plot point is that Ted's son becomes a football player.

00:14:25 ◼   ► Like he, you know, like he, he gets good at it, I guess in, in Kansas, maybe that's, he's

00:14:29 ◼   ► coaching him there.

00:14:30 ◼   ► So they needed someone who could conceivably play football well.

00:14:33 ◼   ► Um, but he, the, the, the actor apparently played Luke Skywalker.

00:14:37 ◼   ► I don't understand.

00:14:38 ◼   ► I don't even want to know.

00:14:39 ◼   ► Oh, in the Obi-Wan, uh, that makes more sense.

00:14:42 ◼   ► There's like a little kid.

00:14:43 ◼   ► Yes.

00:14:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:14:44 ◼   ► But that's just the detail.

00:14:45 ◼   ► Uh, I don't think that they're bringing the force into Ted Lasso, but who could tell?

00:14:49 ◼   ► You never, you never know.

00:14:50 ◼   ► Well, not, not now that it's in Missouri.

00:14:52 ◼   ► And of course there's a ton of additional casting because it's a women's team.

00:14:57 ◼   ► So they've, they've got basically a new crew.

00:14:59 ◼   ► Um, so basically all of this is to say, uh, it's, it, it very much at this point looks like

00:15:06 ◼   ► Apple did in fact drive the truck of money to, to Jason Sudeikis' house because it seems

00:15:12 ◼   ► like there is going to be a three season arc and the majority of it will be in the UK.

00:15:17 ◼   ► I, I assume so.

00:15:19 ◼   ► Or, or like I said, or toggling back and forth a little bit, but yeah, I would, I would assume

00:15:24 ◼   ► so.

00:15:24 ◼   ► If he's coming back to Richmond to coach the squad, he has to be here.

00:15:28 ◼   ► Right.

00:15:28 ◼   ► Right.

00:15:29 ◼   ► And that maybe this first season, my expectation is this first season is they all go to kind

00:15:34 ◼   ► of like find him and bring him home.

00:15:36 ◼   ► And then they bring him back.

00:15:37 ◼   ► Yeah, that's true.

00:15:38 ◼   ► And, and with the women's team, if they also have the men's team going on with Roy Kent and

00:15:44 ◼   ► all of that in the background.

00:15:45 ◼   ► Yep.

00:15:46 ◼   ► Um, that, that might lighten the load on Jason Sudeikis a little bit.

00:15:50 ◼   ► Yep.

00:15:50 ◼   ► He can be in fewer episodes for sure.

00:15:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:15:52 ◼   ► Um, because they can kind of, kind of do the things, but you know, they did what they needed

00:15:57 ◼   ► to do.

00:15:58 ◼   ► They did what they needed to do.

00:16:00 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you in part by our friends at FitBod.

00:16:05 ◼   ► If you're looking to change your fitness level, getting started can be tough because everybody

00:16:09 ◼   ► has their own path of personal fitness.

00:16:11 ◼   ► And that is why FitBod is perfect because it will build a fitness plan that is just for

00:16:16 ◼   ► you, but does it in an easy and affordable way.

00:16:18 ◼   ► FitBod uses the data that they learn from the way that you are progressing your exercise

00:16:23 ◼   ► journey to customize things to suit you.

00:16:25 ◼   ► It's going to adapt as you improve.

00:16:27 ◼   ► It makes sure that every workout remains challenging and will push you to make the progress that

00:16:31 ◼   ► you're looking for.

00:16:32 ◼   ► FitBod will track your muscle recovery as you're exercising so you can avoid burnout and keep

00:16:36 ◼   ► up your momentum because they know that muscles will improve when they work in concert with

00:16:41 ◼   ► the entire muscular system.

00:16:42 ◼   ► So overworking some muscles while underworking others can negatively impact your results.

00:16:46 ◼   ► So it will track your recovery and build the best possible workout by combining exercise

00:16:51 ◼   ► science and AI.

00:16:52 ◼   ► FitBod have analyzed billions of data points that have been fine-tuned by certified personal

00:16:57 ◼   ► trainers to make sure that you're getting the best exercise possible.

00:17:00 ◼   ► And you're not going to get bored because the app will mix up workouts with new exercises,

00:17:04 ◼   ► rep schemes, supersets, and circuits.

00:17:06 ◼   ► When I get new exercises, I love the videos that are in the FitBod app because it can teach

00:17:11 ◼   ► me exactly how to do it because I can watch a trainer do it and I can mimic how they're

00:17:15 ◼   ► moving their body.

00:17:16 ◼   ► And it gives me the confidence that I need to change up what I'm doing and try out new

00:17:20 ◼   ► exercises.

00:17:21 ◼   ► The app is so easy to use.

00:17:22 ◼   ► You can stay informed with their progress tracking charts, weekly reports, and sharing cards that

00:17:26 ◼   ► let you keep track of your achievements and your personal bests and share them with your

00:17:30 ◼   ► friends and family.

00:17:31 ◼   ► And it will integrate with your smartwatch, whether it's an Apple watch or a Wear OS smartwatch,

00:17:35 ◼   ► and other apps that you might use like Strava, Fitbit, and Apple Health.

00:17:39 ◼   ► Personalized training of this quality can be expensive, but FitBod is just $15.99 a month

00:17:43 ◼   ► or $95.99 a year.

00:17:45 ◼   ► But you can get yourself 25% of your membership today by signing up at fitbod.me slash upgrade.

00:17:50 ◼   ► So go now and get your customized fitness plan at fitbod.me slash upgrade.

00:17:55 ◼   ► Once again, that is fitbod.me slash upgrade for 25% of your membership.

00:18:00 ◼   ► Our thanks to FitBod for their support of this show and Relay.

00:18:05 ◼   ► So the public betas are out, and as just before then came beta 4 of all the 26.

00:18:13 ◼   ► Right, developer beta 4, public beta 1, yes.

00:18:14 ◼   ► So we're in the details, Jason.

00:18:17 ◼   ► Woo-hoo!

00:18:18 ◼   ► Now, there's been a lot of talk everywhere about the betas, and we'll talk about some specific

00:18:25 ◼   ► things, maybe touch on liquid glass or whatever in a little bit.

00:18:28 ◼   ► But I actually wanted to talk about the betas by kind of framing it around the, I don't

00:18:36 ◼   ► know if you call it review, preview, first impressions.

00:18:38 ◼   ► Preview, first look, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:18:39 ◼   ► That you wrote of macOS 26, because I think macOS 26 is getting lost in the conversation.

00:18:45 ◼   ► I just feel like everyone's focusing on iOS, right?

00:18:49 ◼   ► Because everyone's focusing on liquid glass primarily, and liquid glass is the most on iOS.

00:18:56 ◼   ► Well, iOS is the most, right?

00:18:58 ◼   ► Like, it's understandable.

00:18:59 ◼   ► iOS is the most.

00:18:59 ◼   ► Yes, makes perfect sense.

00:19:00 ◼   ► Just to set the table, so Dan and I have been working on these six color stories for weeks

00:19:07 ◼   ► now, and holding them for public beta, which is generally what we do.

00:19:12 ◼   ► It's like, sort of like a first draft at our final review, but based only on betas.

00:19:18 ◼   ► So we are withholding judgment on some stuff, and there's some features that we haven't

00:19:22 ◼   ► gone into or we haven't been able to test.

00:19:24 ◼   ► And then on Thursday, when they dropped the public betas at 10 a.m. Pacific, we posted 15,000

00:19:31 ◼   ► words of writing about four OSes, iOS, iPadOS, watchOS, and macOS.

00:19:38 ◼   ► So I took iPad and Mac, and Dan took iOS and watchOS.

00:19:44 ◼   ► So let's talk about macOS.

00:19:45 ◼   ► Yeah, let's do it.

00:19:46 ◼   ► It feels to me like you really wanted to write the macOS one.

00:19:50 ◼   ► Like, it feels like you had some stuff to say.

00:19:51 ◼   ► I mean, I always want to write the macOS one.

00:19:55 ◼   ► I actually got an email from somebody who was like, you know, I'm your age, and I'm kind

00:19:59 ◼   ► of like not that interested in this, all the moves of technology anymore.

00:20:02 ◼   ► How do you do it?

00:20:03 ◼   ► And I'm like, I don't know.

00:20:04 ◼   ► This is what I do.

00:20:05 ◼   ► And I'm especially always excited about the macOS.

00:20:09 ◼   ► I mean, I have been working on new macOS releases, big articles about new macOS releases since

00:20:18 ◼   ► 10.0.

00:20:19 ◼   ► I edited Macworld's 10.0 feature, and I believe I've written since 10.1 on something.

00:20:26 ◼   ► You know, so it's a thing I do every year.

00:20:29 ◼   ► And so I'm still out there doing it.

00:20:33 ◼   ► That's how I survived the Syracuse review era, is that I wrote fewer words.

00:20:37 ◼   ► So that was good.

00:20:39 ◼   ► I was able to keep going.

00:20:41 ◼   ► So yeah, it matters.

00:20:44 ◼   ► And also, I mean, I did Mac and iPad, and I think that Mac and iPad are having really,

00:20:49 ◼   ► really interesting years.

00:20:50 ◼   ► And that means that I also left Dan with iOS, which is on one level the most important and

00:20:54 ◼   ► also the most controversial.

00:20:55 ◼   ► But I found it less interesting than what they did on iPad, and especially what they did on

00:21:00 ◼   ► Mac, because I, you know, I think there's a lot of really great stuff for Mac users this

00:21:07 ◼   ► time around.

00:21:07 ◼   ► In fact, arguably, you know, it's one of the better macOS releases in, I don't know, pick

00:21:13 ◼   ► your time period, in quite a while.

00:21:14 ◼   ► Why don't we start talking about the good stuff then?

00:21:16 ◼   ► So I guess one of these things is Spotlight, right?

00:21:20 ◼   ► It seems like you are very high on Spotlight in Tahoe.

00:21:26 ◼   ► Yeah, Spotlight has been getting better.

00:21:28 ◼   ► And one of the things I wrote about is that Spotlight, when I started using LaunchBar, Spotlight

00:21:32 ◼   ► wasn't very good, right?

00:21:33 ◼   ► It was slow, and it was just a search utility.

00:21:35 ◼   ► And I used LaunchBar to do, like, launching apps and then opening files and all sorts of

00:21:40 ◼   ► other things that LaunchBar does, calculations and emoji and all sorts of other things that

00:21:44 ◼   ► LaunchBar does.

00:21:45 ◼   ► But I did that because Spotlight wasn't very good.

00:21:47 ◼   ► But the thing is, in the background, Spotlight has been getting better.

00:21:51 ◼   ► And I wrote a piece a couple years ago that I keep referring to because it was that moment

00:21:54 ◼   ► where somebody asked me, what are good utilities to install when you're a new Mac user for the

00:22:01 ◼   ► first time?

00:22:02 ◼   ► There's somebody coming from Windows.

00:22:03 ◼   ► And I realized that most of the stuff that I was relying on had over the years been, I was

00:22:14 ◼   ► relying on it because Apple didn't provide those features.

00:22:16 ◼   ► But over the years, Apple really did start providing most of those features.

00:22:19 ◼   ► And that thought experiment sort of was reduced to clipboard history and a couple other things,

00:22:27 ◼   ► but pretty fairly minor things.

00:22:29 ◼   ► So LaunchBar, which I was using as my launcher and as my clipboard history and a bunch of other

00:22:35 ◼   ► stuff, like, it's still good.

00:22:38 ◼   ► But I realized that with Tahoe, Apple has gotten to the point where I think it implements almost

00:22:44 ◼   ► every single feature I was using in LaunchBar.

00:22:46 ◼   ► And the only reason I was using LaunchBar really was familiarity.

00:22:50 ◼   ► And I think fundamentally, if you can use the system stuff, you should.

00:22:56 ◼   ► If there's not a reason for you to go beyond it, the system, you know, Apple provided stuff

00:23:01 ◼   ► is going to be, you know, I don't know.

00:23:04 ◼   ► There's something about having it just be the Apple imprint of it that unless if I think if

00:23:10 ◼   ► you don't have to add another layer on, don't.

00:23:13 ◼   ► And if you do, then do.

00:23:14 ◼   ► But if you don't, then don't.

00:23:15 ◼   ► So when I installed the first developer beta of macOS Tahoe, I uninstalled, well, I didn't

00:23:22 ◼   ► uninstall.

00:23:23 ◼   ► I turned auto-launching of LaunchBar off as a startup item.

00:23:27 ◼   ► And I just decided to use Spotlight to see how I would do.

00:23:30 ◼   ► And I haven't launched LaunchBar since then.

00:23:34 ◼   ► So there are some things that it, I mean, I use LaunchBar for emoji insertion, which was

00:23:40 ◼   ► really great because you could just type an emoji, invoke it, command space, and then type

00:23:43 ◼   ► an emoji and press return.

00:23:44 ◼   ► And that emoji was inserted.

00:23:46 ◼   ► And I miss it.

00:23:48 ◼   ► And I've used Rocket to do it in some apps.

00:23:53 ◼   ► And then some, you know, some people suggested just do command control space and type and you

00:23:59 ◼   ► can pick an emoji.

00:24:00 ◼   ► I prefer to do it the Rocket way.

00:24:03 ◼   ► There's some issues with Rocket getting in the way of certain things.

00:24:07 ◼   ► But like, that's, that's sort of where I am right now.

00:24:10 ◼   ► But other than that, like, and look, Spotlight in, in Tahoe, it's got some rough edges, like

00:24:18 ◼   ► they've got these quick keys so you can do actions, but you can't apply them to anything else.

00:24:22 ◼   ► It does learn, apparently, like LaunchBar learns that if you type, you know, a few keystrokes

00:24:28 ◼   ► always to launch one app, like it's going to learn that that is an app you launch a lot

00:24:32 ◼   ► and that it's going to make it the first suggestion.

00:24:35 ◼   ► So you can just type those keystrokes and hit return, right?

00:24:37 ◼   ► Like it does all of that stuff.

00:24:38 ◼   ► But you can also explicitly attach letters to an action.

00:24:44 ◼   ► And the concept of actions, which is app intents and shortcuts and other stuff so that you have

00:24:51 ◼   ► this area where you can basically say, do this thing, including, I mean, their demo was like

00:24:56 ◼   ► send a text message from Spotlight or send an email from Spotlight, you could totally do that

00:25:00 ◼   ► or run a shortcut with input from Spotlight, which is something I can do from LaunchBar too.

00:25:05 ◼   ► But it's in, it's in Spotlight.

00:25:08 ◼   ► That's pretty great.

00:25:08 ◼   ► And the clipboard history is in there too.

00:25:10 ◼   ► So it felt like from the way that you described it, like, for example, I could have,

00:25:14 ◼   ► I could, I could add a Todoist task from Spotlight, for example, if I set it up the right way.

00:25:21 ◼   ► And that sounds, that's really nice, right?

00:25:23 ◼   ► Either from having a Todoist app intent or writing a shortcut that takes input and puts

00:25:29 ◼   ► it where you want it to be.

00:25:30 ◼   ► But yeah, that, the idea that you can just do that straight from within Spotlight.

00:25:34 ◼   ► It sounds really good.

00:25:36 ◼   ► Yeah, it's good.

00:25:37 ◼   ► And I don't have a problem with the clipboard history.

00:25:40 ◼   ► I, some people, like eight hours, like I never go back that far in my clipboard history.

00:25:45 ◼   ► And again, what I would say is if you've got a reason to use another clipboard history app,

00:25:51 ◼   ► you should, right?

00:25:52 ◼   ► Like, that's great.

00:25:53 ◼   ► There are lots of them, but like, I think there should be a fundamental level of clipboard

00:25:56 ◼   ► history that's in the system.

00:25:57 ◼   ► And, you know, next step is it also should be on iOS and iPadOS, but it's a good first start

00:26:03 ◼   ► to have it be on the Mac.

00:26:04 ◼   ► And it's great.

00:26:05 ◼   ► I use it and I've been using it all summer and it's, it's really good.

00:26:10 ◼   ► So, you know, Spotlight, you know, it's one of those things.

00:26:13 ◼   ► It's been around a very long time.

00:26:15 ◼   ► I looked it up since like Tiger or something.

00:26:17 ◼   ► But it is, it has gotten a lot better.

00:26:21 ◼   ► Every year they make it better.

00:26:22 ◼   ► And then this year they made it a lot better.

00:26:24 ◼   ► So it's almost like a new thing this year.

00:26:26 ◼   ► Right.

00:26:26 ◼   ► So it's like, they were like, let's just start over.

00:26:28 ◼   ► And what they came to was they made a state of the art version of this idea, right?

00:26:35 ◼   ► They were like, you know, we've had Alfred who had Launchpad and I think Raycast is probably

00:26:39 ◼   ► what kicked them a little bit here.

00:26:41 ◼   ► Probably.

00:26:42 ◼   ► And they, and they've got, I didn't even mention the concept of these sort of slash commands.

00:26:47 ◼   ► So there's power user features inside this too.

00:26:49 ◼   ► So you can very quickly like say, just show me, you know, word files or text files or PDFs

00:26:56 ◼   ► or whatever.

00:26:56 ◼   ► And it's got, they're doing, you know, working with third-party data providers so that theoretically

00:27:04 ◼   ► you should be able to like type IMDB and hit tab and type the name of somebody.

00:27:09 ◼   ► And it will not just like hit their search page, but it will show you the results below

00:27:13 ◼   ► it, which is a thing that all these launchers do.

00:27:17 ◼   ► It's good.

00:27:17 ◼   ► I mean, like it should be there.

00:27:19 ◼   ► They put some real work into this and like some real time and money into this.

00:27:22 ◼   ► Like this is like a serious feature that's being added to the system that realistically is something

00:27:28 ◼   ► that everyone can benefit from in some way, right?

00:27:31 ◼   ► I think so.

00:27:32 ◼   ► I think that's really cool.

00:27:33 ◼   ► And then shortcuts got a bunch of automation features finally on the Mac.

00:27:38 ◼   ► These are these old things that were called folder actions, but they're more and they're

00:27:43 ◼   ► directly kind of interfaced into shortcuts.

00:27:46 ◼   ► The way they did it is a little curious.

00:27:48 ◼   ► You, you basically pick a folder or whatever and say, or time, which you could do.

00:27:55 ◼   ► But like, I really am interested in the folder action thing because I was using Hazel for

00:27:59 ◼   ► that.

00:27:59 ◼   ► And again, Hazel is great.

00:28:01 ◼   ► But like if I could not use a third party utility and just have it be literally the one for

00:28:07 ◼   ► me is that my Southwest Airlines confirmations and our friend, Dr. Drang wrote a little script

00:28:14 ◼   ► that basically takes a Southwest Airlines confirmation and rewrites it and then adds it to your calendar.

00:28:20 ◼   ► And it rewrites it so that it's the ICS files generated by Southwest Airlines website aren't

00:28:27 ◼   ► very, they're kind of inscrutable.

00:28:29 ◼   ► And so Dr. Drang wrote a version where it rewrites the title so that you know your code is in there.

00:28:38 ◼   ► It adds alarms so that you can check in and so it just it rewrites the ICS.

00:28:45 ◼   ► Well, I had a Hazel script that did that.

00:28:49 ◼   ► And now I just have a shortcut that does it, that runs that script.

00:28:54 ◼   ► And it was very easy.

00:28:55 ◼   ► There are some quirks.

00:28:56 ◼   ► It's the way they've done it is sort of like the action is passed as input to the shortcut.

00:29:01 ◼   ► So you end up having to sort of like say repeat with all the changes in the folder.

00:29:07 ◼   ► And then one by one, you say like, is this file a file I can act on?

00:29:12 ◼   ► And so I have, you know, there's a little extra overhead where I have to I have to have a repeat

00:29:16 ◼   ► loop in shortcuts that says, is this an ICS file from Southwest Airlines?

00:29:21 ◼   ► And then if it is do this thing, but you know what?

00:29:24 ◼   ► It works.

00:29:25 ◼   ► I download the file and it goes boop and opens it in Fantastical.

00:29:28 ◼   ► So like it just works.

00:29:30 ◼   ► And and that was I mean, automation has been on iOS for shortcuts for a long time.

00:29:35 ◼   ► But like the time time based stuff wasn't there on the Mac.

00:29:38 ◼   ► And they've they've it took them their own sweet time to implement it.

00:29:41 ◼   ► But but by adding in kind of these event actions of things happening on your Mac, it is adding.

00:29:47 ◼   ► I didn't even put this kind of automation in my list of like things that you would use

00:29:52 ◼   ► a Mac utility for.

00:29:53 ◼   ► But obviously, Hazel is a great example of that.

00:29:55 ◼   ► And Apple has just kind of like, again, I'm sure their edge cases, the Sherlocking thing

00:29:59 ◼   ► is always about Apple doing the middle 60 percent and leaving all the edges for the third party

00:30:06 ◼   ► utilities that have very specific ways that they do a better job than Apple.

00:30:10 ◼   ► But like adding to the core experience, I think, is really great.

00:30:13 ◼   ► And the idea that you have a, you know, a script that can run at a particular time, a shortcut

00:30:18 ◼   ► that can run at a particular time and do a thing on your Mac or or win an action.

00:30:22 ◼   ► Like a lot of the Hazel stuff I've got is things like if if an image appears on my desktop

00:30:28 ◼   ► and it's a heath, make it a JPEG because I probably I probably want to share it.

00:30:35 ◼   ► And like I can I can turn that into a shortcut now.

00:30:38 ◼   ► And that's stuff like that's a good one.

00:30:39 ◼   ► Right.

00:30:40 ◼   ► Right.

00:30:41 ◼   ► So it's stuff like that.

00:30:42 ◼   ► So, yeah, it's it's great.

00:30:44 ◼   ► Again, it is the shortcuts app.

00:30:46 ◼   ► My understanding is that the shortcuts app is is is that they they made it a little a little

00:30:53 ◼   ► less Swift UI this year in order to make it more stable.

00:30:58 ◼   ► And I think that's a good move.

00:31:00 ◼   ► It has on the Mac there was one of the developer rate is it was completely unusable.

00:31:04 ◼   ► It is more usable now.

00:31:05 ◼   ► It's still a little bit buggy.

00:31:06 ◼   ► And I did in the article event some of my frustration, I think, about the fact that like the app, I

00:31:11 ◼   ► mean, it's great that they're adding features to shortcuts, but like the app is it needs to

00:31:15 ◼   ► be better.

00:31:16 ◼   ► The app needs to be better.

00:31:17 ◼   ► And I'm really frustrated that the app isn't better.

00:31:19 ◼   ► I know Federico has written about that a lot.

00:31:20 ◼   ► Like there are lots of even programming concepts that the app just doesn't do that shortcuts doesn't

00:31:26 ◼   ► do.

00:31:26 ◼   ► And it's so frustrating because Dan Warren and I were talking about this and it's like

00:31:32 ◼   ► shortcuts people know because he said to me, yeah, I need to do this thing.

00:31:35 ◼   ► And I realized I needed to do an if else.

00:31:38 ◼   ► And then we both just started laughing because it's like, you can't just can't do it.

00:31:42 ◼   ► Don't don't do that in shortcuts.

00:31:44 ◼   ► It's don't it's bad.

00:31:47 ◼   ► Don't do it.

00:31:47 ◼   ► It's like, well, that stuff should all be better.

00:31:50 ◼   ► But anyway, it's good.

00:31:52 ◼   ► So, I mean, right there, you've got between spotlight and shortcuts, you've got two really

00:31:56 ◼   ► good power user features.

00:31:57 ◼   ► And then there's one more I'll mention really quickly.

00:32:00 ◼   ► Remember, because I did a quick version of this a while ago where I said I said I wrote

00:32:06 ◼   ► a thousand words about the menu bar.

00:32:07 ◼   ► And you said, what are you doing?

00:32:11 ◼   ► Like the transparent menu bar, I actually don't have any problem with it, but it has been readable

00:32:17 ◼   ► to me, but they also added the checkbox that says just put it, you know, put a menu bar

00:32:21 ◼   ► back there and it's fine, whatever.

00:32:23 ◼   ► But they added just I'm going to put a pitch in here.

00:32:26 ◼   ► Control center on the Mac, which is sort of silly, is now not silly because they added this

00:32:31 ◼   ► controls API.

00:32:31 ◼   ► Third party apps can write controls.

00:32:33 ◼   ► But more than that.

00:32:34 ◼   ► So your third party apps can put things in control center.

00:32:37 ◼   ► Well, that means it's kind of like menu bar items, but in control center.

00:32:40 ◼   ► But they also added the ability to add multiple pages of control center.

00:32:43 ◼   ► And unlike on iOS, where you swipe down to get more pages, more pages in control center

00:32:48 ◼   ► on macOS is more icons in the menu bar with an icon you select and then you put items in

00:32:53 ◼   ► it.

00:32:53 ◼   ► And every control can also be put in the menu bar.

00:32:56 ◼   ► So Apple's building a menu bar manager in front of us.

00:33:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:33:00 ◼   ► And it's essentially you build a bunch of control centers, right?

00:33:05 ◼   ► Like you build like four different control centers and they've all got different things

00:33:08 ◼   ► in them.

00:33:09 ◼   ► So yeah, as many as you want, themed in the way you want, and every control also can be

00:33:15 ◼   ► in the menu bar itself.

00:33:16 ◼   ► And I think this is where they're going.

00:33:18 ◼   ► You know, Apple doesn't talk about future directions, but I think when I talk to them about this, I

00:33:24 ◼   ► get the sense that I'm right here, that this is Apple's vision for what the future of menu

00:33:29 ◼   ► bar items is.

00:33:30 ◼   ► And I think it's good because it's really flexible.

00:33:34 ◼   ► You can have them in a dropdown, you can choose which dropdown, or you can have them

00:33:37 ◼   ► also appear in the menu bar itself.

00:33:40 ◼   ► And that's all just allowed.

00:33:41 ◼   ► It's a new API and I'm sure there are limitations and I'm sure that developers of existing menu

00:33:46 ◼   ► bar things are going to be like, oh, we can't do this thing and it's annoying.

00:33:49 ◼   ► All that stuff's going to happen.

00:33:50 ◼   ► But like in the long run, I really am heartened by the fact that Apple has taken a concept from

00:33:54 ◼   ► iOS and then actually done what they should do with every feature they bring to the Mac,

00:33:58 ◼   ► which is think about what makes the Mac good and how would this be best, uh, iterated to

00:34:04 ◼   ► for on the Mac best, the best version of control center in a Mac context.

00:34:10 ◼   ► And what they came up with was basically it's a menu bar manager and you can have your icons

00:34:15 ◼   ► where you want them to be.

00:34:16 ◼   ► And like, that's great.

00:34:19 ◼   ► The fact that they're trying to think about the future of the Mac in 2025 and a direction

00:34:24 ◼   ► they want to push to have a more modern take on a classic Mac thing about stuff in the

00:34:29 ◼   ► menu bar.

00:34:29 ◼   ► Also, I will say when you've got, uh, lots of laptops and, uh, screens with notches, having,

00:34:34 ◼   ► uh, having built in menu bar icon management is important.

00:34:38 ◼   ► It's kind of become key because everything, you know, all modern apps want to go up there.

00:34:43 ◼   ► They just want to go up there and live there.

00:34:45 ◼   ► And there's too much.

00:34:46 ◼   ► Whenever I'm on my, my laptop, I'm like, oh, there I've lost, I've lost some icons.

00:34:52 ◼   ► On my display, on like my 27 inch display, if I didn't use bartender, like there would

00:34:58 ◼   ► be some apps that I would use where the menu bar, you know, I'm using like Photoshop or something.

00:35:03 ◼   ► They're going to hit each other.

00:35:04 ◼   ► Like the amount of crap that I have in the menu bar that most of it I can't get rid of.

00:35:08 ◼   ► Can I put existing menu bar items in, right?

00:35:15 ◼   ► They have to be updated.

00:35:16 ◼   ► Menu extras are not controls.

00:35:19 ◼   ► And that's the sort of like the way forward I think is, is, you know, start doing controls,

00:35:24 ◼   ► stop doing menu extras.

00:35:25 ◼   ► Um, and then that, that puts it in the user's hands and being able to say, I want this in

00:35:30 ◼   ► the menu bar.

00:35:30 ◼   ► I don't want this in the menu.

00:35:31 ◼   ► And, and, and, you know, you can take things out of the menu bar now, but the idea that you

00:35:36 ◼   ► can just sort of like, it's a completely flexible system where like, put what you want in the

00:35:39 ◼   ► menu bar, put what you want in a dropdown.

00:35:41 ◼   ► It's still quick and accessible for users.

00:35:44 ◼   ► I think that's their vision of it.

00:35:46 ◼   ► We'll see what happens in the long run, but I think it's a great idea.

00:35:49 ◼   ► Before we talk about liquid glass, I want to talk about the icon prison that Apple seems

00:35:54 ◼   ► to have created, which this is the first I had seen of this.

00:35:57 ◼   ► Um, so I don't know how long it's been basically forever.

00:36:01 ◼   ► Uh, Mac OS icons can be kind of any shape.

00:36:06 ◼   ► And in the last few years, Apple has, I would say strongly encouraged developers to start using,

00:36:12 ◼   ► uh, squares, you know, like the rounded, rounded rectangle, round racks, you know, that's not

00:36:18 ◼   ► good.

00:36:18 ◼   ► They're not rectangles, but nevertheless round racks that we have on iOS and all of Apple's

00:36:22 ◼   ► apps follow, have started to be redesigned over time to be in the rounded rectangles.

00:36:29 ◼   ► And, you know, we did our icon draft a couple of years ago where we looked at that in more

00:36:32 ◼   ► detail, but they're still kind of encouraged and did not discourage a little bit of breaking

00:36:37 ◼   ► outside of that, uh, round, right.

00:36:40 ◼   ► But now if you do, it seems like they put you in a little box anyway.

00:36:44 ◼   ► Yep.

00:36:44 ◼   ► Into a dark gray prison.

00:36:48 ◼   ► It's the, uh, I, I refer to it as the shame box.

00:36:51 ◼   ► Um, it is, look, Apple has once all these icons to be redesigned with that, a new, the new icon.

00:37:03 ◼   ► Um, what's it called?

00:37:04 ◼   ► Icon composer.

00:37:05 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:37:06 ◼   ► There's a new utility.

00:37:08 ◼   ► It lets you have sections of your icons and, and, and those pickup glass effects.

00:37:13 ◼   ► There's lots of reasons to build a new icon for Mac OS.

00:37:17 ◼   ► No doubt about it.

00:37:19 ◼   ► However, first off, most of the apps that are in the shame box for me are apps that are using

00:37:28 ◼   ► around rect and then have a little bit of it peeking out like Mars edit, the nose of the

00:37:34 ◼   ► rocket and the flame of the tail of the rocket, just peek out of the round rect or BB edit where

00:37:40 ◼   ► the BB edit logo is inside around wreck and the edges just peek out or audio hijack, which

00:37:46 ◼   ► has got around wrecked with a wave form and then a microphone that's just peeking out the

00:37:51 ◼   ► side of it.

00:37:52 ◼   ► And, and then they put it in a box.

00:37:55 ◼   ► So it's a box in a box.

00:37:56 ◼   ► Look, I think developers have lots of reasons to update their icons.

00:38:02 ◼   ► Like I said, icon composer is there.

00:38:04 ◼   ► There's a new look.

00:38:04 ◼   ► They want to fit in.

00:38:05 ◼   ► I think these are all motivators.

00:38:07 ◼   ► These are carrots for them to go.

00:38:10 ◼   ► The gray box.

00:38:12 ◼   ► The prison is a stick.

00:38:14 ◼   ► It's Apple shaming them and saying, we're going to, if you don't do what we want, we're going

00:38:20 ◼   ► to make your app look bad.

00:38:23 ◼   ► And you know, I'm okay with it in the beta.

00:38:26 ◼   ► I really am.

00:38:28 ◼   ► The beta is a, is a good time to, to make a stark reminder to developers that they really

00:38:36 ◼   ► would like them to move along with their icon design.

00:38:39 ◼   ► I'm okay with it.

00:38:40 ◼   ► I'm okay with Apple saying we strongly recommend that you use icon composer.

00:38:45 ◼   ► You do a new version of your icon.

00:38:47 ◼   ► It'll fit in better.

00:38:48 ◼   ► Please do that.

00:38:49 ◼   ► This is, we want the users to have some sort of a unity here.

00:38:53 ◼   ► Okay.

00:38:54 ◼   ► And we can debate whether that's good or bad, but like as the platform owner, I am okay with

00:38:58 ◼   ► all of that.

00:39:00 ◼   ► However, when this ships, I think it's outrageous if Apple ships this with the shame box, because

00:39:12 ◼   ► I think for Apple to, I mean, it's, I know that we've heard lots of stories of this, but

00:39:18 ◼   ► like it is such a betrayal of developers.

00:39:21 ◼   ► Like use the carrot.

00:39:24 ◼   ► There's plenty of motivators for them to go.

00:39:26 ◼   ► They're probably going to go.

00:39:28 ◼   ► But to put a visible badge on apps that you think are laggards, when they may have plenty

00:39:36 ◼   ► of reasons that they're not there on day one, to take their branding and make it look ugly

00:39:42 ◼   ► out of like spite that they didn't do what you want, especially since some of these, it's

00:39:48 ◼   ► like, maybe you want to let them be a little creative with their icon.

00:39:52 ◼   ► Maybe the creativity and just breaking outside the norm might be good.

00:39:59 ◼   ► Maybe it would show the way forward for you to revisit some of your choices about this,

00:40:04 ◼   ► but to put them all in prison, like, I'm sorry.

00:40:08 ◼   ► It's just, it's just one of those things that, that fundamentally as a policy is wrong and Apple

00:40:15 ◼   ► shouldn't do it.

00:40:15 ◼   ► And like, you've got plenty of motivators here.

00:40:18 ◼   ► You've got plenty of carrots to offer these developers.

00:40:20 ◼   ► Uh, the stick should be put this box there as a highlight of like, you really should do

00:40:25 ◼   ► this during the beta period.

00:40:27 ◼   ► But you know, if you're, if you're defacing people's apps, when this thing ships, because

00:40:33 ◼   ► they're not, you know, conforming to your rigorous standard here, like, come on.

00:40:38 ◼   ► Like, like, I just, they need to, this is a bad policy.

00:40:43 ◼   ► This is a bad policy to, to just say, do not diverge from the norm or we shame your app.

00:40:49 ◼   ► I just, I hate it.

00:40:51 ◼   ► I hate it.

00:40:52 ◼   ► I, I, there is no reason for them to be beyond the communication of it, which this gray box

00:40:59 ◼   ► does in the beta period.

00:41:01 ◼   ► But like, beyond that, I just, I, there, there's no reason for them to be this petty

00:41:06 ◼   ► about defacing people's apps without their permission because they didn't get with the

00:41:11 ◼   ► program.

00:41:12 ◼   ► I, I just, it's, it's gotta, I don't, I don't mind them doing it now, but they got to stop

00:41:16 ◼   ► it.

00:41:16 ◼   ► So if there's anybody out there listening, who's a part of the Mac OS, uh, decision-making

00:41:20 ◼   ► process, it's like, we get it.

00:41:22 ◼   ► The developers get it.

00:41:25 ◼   ► But if you let this run into the final release, you're just being jerks.

00:41:31 ◼   ► You're just being jerks.

00:41:32 ◼   ► Just let it go.

00:41:33 ◼   ► You have enough leverage over them to shame them by having their apps stand out from the

00:41:38 ◼   ► crowd in a way that makes them feel old.

00:41:41 ◼   ► You don't need to put them in a gray box.

00:41:43 ◼   ► So have Apple updated all of their icons then?

00:41:47 ◼   ► Because there are, in the current version of Mac OS Sequoia, there are many of Apple's

00:41:53 ◼   ► icons where they break outside of the rounded rectangle.

00:41:56 ◼   ► I think so.

00:41:59 ◼   ► Like preview, automator.

00:42:02 ◼   ► I'm like, they break out of the box.

00:42:05 ◼   ► So my assumption is that they've squished them into the box.

00:42:08 ◼   ► Well, that's the problem is, yeah, they've redesigned them all to be, yeah, like preview

00:42:11 ◼   ► is just the loop now.

00:42:12 ◼   ► It's lost.

00:42:13 ◼   ► This is a, this is a whole other conversation about how so many of Apple's icons that used

00:42:17 ◼   ► to mean something now don't mean anything like the app store, which is just three popsicle

00:42:22 ◼   ► sticks forming an A. And it used to be that they were tools and they were tools you use

00:42:27 ◼   ► to build an application, but now it's, now it's just the app store means three popsicles.

00:42:31 ◼   ► And like preview lost its image.

00:42:34 ◼   ► So now it's just a loop.

00:42:35 ◼   ► What's the loop used for?

00:42:36 ◼   ► Who knows?

00:42:37 ◼   ► It could be an upside on shot glass.

00:42:38 ◼   ► Nobody knows because it's lost all the context of what it was.

00:42:42 ◼   ► And that's another issue with Apple's whole policy here.

00:42:45 ◼   ► But again, what I would say is there, there, there's a way to get people on side and some

00:42:51 ◼   ► people are not going to want to go on side.

00:42:52 ◼   ► But like what's worth the things, the other thing is, forgive me for taking so much time

00:42:57 ◼   ► on it, but it's just like, this is unnecessary.

00:42:59 ◼   ► This is just an unnecessary foul on Apple's part.

00:43:02 ◼   ► But like the apps that look the worst in the shame box are the apps that are trying to conform

00:43:06 ◼   ► because they've got round rects and they're just outside of the round rect.

00:43:11 ◼   ► And so Apple's like into the box with you.

00:43:14 ◼   ► Whereas the apps that look good in the shame box or apps like acorn, which is just a picture

00:43:19 ◼   ► of an acorn.

00:43:20 ◼   ► And Gus made no attempt, Gus acorn, the developer of acorn made no attempt to, uh, put it in

00:43:28 ◼   ► a round rect.

00:43:29 ◼   ► And as a result, it's now just the acorn in a round rect.

00:43:32 ◼   ► It actually looks fine, right?

00:43:34 ◼   ► It looks fine.

00:43:35 ◼   ► Other than that Apple chose, obviously this dark gray color is to be shameful.

00:43:39 ◼   ► Um, but the ones that look bad are the ones where it's a box in a box.

00:43:42 ◼   ► So the ones, the ones that are, are the least conforming have the least damage.

00:43:48 ◼   ► The ones that are trying to play ball, but be a little bit different are the ones that

00:43:50 ◼   ► Apple's really squashing here.

00:43:52 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:43:52 ◼   ► It's dumb.

00:43:52 ◼   ► It's just dumb.

00:43:53 ◼   ► It's unnecessary.

00:43:54 ◼   ► I'm going to read a selection of quotes from your article now, uh, which is about liquid

00:44:00 ◼   ► glass and how it's implemented on the Mac.

00:44:02 ◼   ► The new design on the Mac doesn't feel light and glassy as it does on iPhone and iPad.

00:44:07 ◼   ► It's just a bit of a muddle.

00:44:09 ◼   ► It feels like Apple has lost its balance in a quixotic attempt to make every app look

00:44:14 ◼   ► like a photo editor.

00:44:16 ◼   ► I also have to point out the hypocrisy of Apple claiming that it's building better frames for

00:44:21 ◼   ► its users' content.

00:44:22 ◼   ► That is not what's happening here.

00:44:23 ◼   ► Apple is using our content as decoration for its interfaces, using blurred and distorted

00:44:29 ◼   ► versions of our images and words to show off those glass interface elements.

00:44:33 ◼   ► But I get the sense that this really is a design that's been thoroughly considered

00:44:37 ◼   ► for iPhones.

00:44:38 ◼   ► It's similar enough on the iPad to be in the ballpark, but that has not really been thought

00:44:43 ◼   ► through on the Mac.

00:44:44 ◼   ► So I remember leading up to the redesigns, your hope was that Apple had sat down and really

00:44:52 ◼   ► thought about all of this and they'd had the time and they'd had the budget and they'd had

00:44:58 ◼   ► the, you know, the ability to consider what would a full overall Apple systems redesign look

00:45:05 ◼   ► like?

00:45:05 ◼   ► And your hope was they're going to think about all of them and they're going to consider

00:45:10 ◼   ► them all kind of, um, not equally, but like, uh, uh, unique, uniquely equal, right?

00:45:18 ◼   ► So, you know, that they're each going to be considered, but we're going to be kind of like

00:45:22 ◼   ► looking at the overall.

00:45:23 ◼   ► And I would get the sense.

00:45:25 ◼   ► And I mean, you basically say in your article, you do not believe that they did this for the

00:45:29 ◼   ► Mac.

00:45:29 ◼   ► It's a huge missed opportunity.

00:45:31 ◼   ► It's possible.

00:45:32 ◼   ► Here's, here's something that I, that comes up in all the drama about liquid glass, which

00:45:36 ◼   ► is there's a real difference between, um, design and implementation.

00:45:41 ◼   ► Um, you can have a design, there may be within Apple, a very, uh, detailed liquid glass design

00:45:47 ◼   ► comp for Mac OS and it just hasn't been implemented.

00:45:50 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:45:51 ◼   ► Um, it, there may not be, and it does very much feel like certainly the implementation is

00:45:58 ◼   ► happening on iOS and then the Mac OS is sort of half there.

00:46:01 ◼   ► They've made some improvements over the last, uh, few betas, but, uh, but yeah, it, it doesn't

00:46:07 ◼   ► feel, I mean, I keep coming back to toolbars, but like toolbars are a real important part

00:46:13 ◼   ► of the Mac experience, toolbars in the Finder, toolbars in certain apps.

00:46:17 ◼   ► And, you know, the toolbars in, in Tahoe are, are stupid.

00:46:22 ◼   ► I mean, it's like gray, gray, uh, I don't know, shapes with a, just a generic drop shadow

00:46:31 ◼   ► on top of other gray stuff.

00:46:34 ◼   ► It doesn't feel glassy in any way.

00:46:37 ◼   ► It feels unfinished.

00:46:38 ◼   ► It doesn't feel like liquid glass.

00:46:41 ◼   ► I feel like liquid glass on the Mac should actually be kind of like clear aqua, right?

00:46:46 ◼   ► There should be like, these are glass elements sitting on top of a glass, like little glass

00:46:52 ◼   ► bumps sitting on a glass pane or a little glass elements extruding from a surface.

00:46:56 ◼   ► And instead it's just like a floating oval with a drop shadow and the drop shadow.

00:47:01 ◼   ► So, I mean, again, I, I hate to, I, I have, I hate to be this mean, but I'm just going to

00:47:07 ◼   ► say it gets strong.

00:47:09 ◼   ► It gives me strong first time using Photoshop vibes.

00:47:12 ◼   ► Like when I started doing Photoshop and page maker and stuff like that, you're like, Ooh,

00:47:17 ◼   ► we can put a drop shadow.

00:47:18 ◼   ► That'll solve everything.

00:47:19 ◼   ► It's like, it's just the most basic, like, Oh yeah, sure.

00:47:23 ◼   ► You have no contrast.

00:47:24 ◼   ► Stick a drop shadow in there.

00:47:25 ◼   ► That'll do it.

00:47:26 ◼   ► Um, and that's, what's in those, those toolbars on the Mac.

00:47:29 ◼   ► And they just, they look bad.

00:47:30 ◼   ► The sidebar on the Mac looks better.

00:47:32 ◼   ► Now they fix some of the issues there, but it's still, you know, the whole idea is it's

00:47:35 ◼   ► supposed to be glassy, but there's no real content under the sidebar in the finder.

00:47:39 ◼   ► Um, I don't know.

00:47:41 ◼   ► It's just, it, it, it feels unfinished.

00:47:43 ◼   ► It doesn't feel like they really thought out what liquid glass would mean on a Mac versus

00:47:48 ◼   ► on an iPad or an iPhone.

00:47:50 ◼   ► And so we ended up with a, we ended up with a look that that's like, other than like

00:47:54 ◼   ► the dock and maybe control center, like it's just there and it's different.

00:47:59 ◼   ► The good news is, cause I've heard people say, I'm not going to update to the betas or maybe

00:48:04 ◼   ► not even update to Tahoe because I've heard the design is so bad.

00:48:07 ◼   ► It's like, it's not, it's fine.

00:48:09 ◼   ► It's usable.

00:48:10 ◼   ► It's just a missed, it's, it's just an enormous missed opportunity.

00:48:14 ◼   ► And it's frustrating because I feel like they had the opportunity here to, uh, define

00:48:20 ◼   ► this concept for the Mac and they just didn't.

00:48:22 ◼   ► And, and so it's this kind of halfway interface.

00:48:25 ◼   ► It's just, it's just, yeah, it's, it's super disappointing.

00:48:27 ◼   ► Yeah, it doesn't look massively different.

00:48:29 ◼   ► Like it just kind of like on the face of it, but then they do, it's like, they're trying

00:48:35 ◼   ► to fake like layering and texture as opposed to where on iOS, it does feel like that there

00:48:45 ◼   ► are, there is something sitting on top of something where, as you say that all they've

00:48:49 ◼   ► done is they've kind of separated the buttons from the window by just putting a shadow underneath

00:48:56 ◼   ► them and putting them in a box of some description.

00:48:59 ◼   ► It just, it lacks the excitement, whether you like it or not, right?

00:49:05 ◼   ► Like it lacks seems, the Mac seems to lack the excitement that the other platforms have.

00:49:09 ◼   ► like even watch OS, right?

00:49:18 ◼   ► liquid glass of liquid glass, then the Mac does.

00:49:20 ◼   ► And the places where the transparency shows up on the Mac, like say music is some of the

00:49:26 ◼   ► worst places that it looks in general.

00:49:29 ◼   ► Yes, yes.

00:49:30 ◼   ► I mean, the music app, the music app is a disaster.

00:49:33 ◼   ► And then unfinished, you talk about unfinished, like you can color icons in the finder, right?

00:49:40 ◼   ► And put a glyph on them.

00:49:41 ◼   ► But if you drag them into the dock, it doesn't pick up the color in the glyph.

00:49:46 ◼   ► And again, it is unfinished, right?

00:49:48 ◼   ► Like it's fair to say, like you said, unfinished.

00:49:50 ◼   ► It is unfinished.

00:49:51 ◼   ► It's a beta.

00:49:51 ◼   ► But, but we're, yeah, we're at the point now where in this, in this, I get the opportunity

00:49:55 ◼   ► to say, these are problems that should be addressed.

00:49:58 ◼   ► Because Apple are happy to let the world use it at this point, right?

00:50:01 ◼   ► Like this is a version where they've said, you know what?

00:50:04 ◼   ► Everyone can see this.

00:50:05 ◼   ► I am, I'm not going to not call out problems in public beta, but I'm also, when I write about

00:50:15 ◼   ► the public betas, I am open to the idea that it is a, it is a thing that is changing.

00:50:20 ◼   ► And I am not going to make any final judgments about macOS Tahoe based on a beta cycle.

00:50:27 ◼   ► However, when they ship 0.0, all judgments will be made, right?

00:50:32 ◼   ► Like that's just, that's how that works.

00:50:34 ◼   ► Because then they're saying they're done.

00:50:35 ◼   ► And I know software is never really done, but they're shipping a final product to everybody.

00:50:40 ◼   ► And if, if some of this stuff is still there, then yeah, it will get called out.

00:50:45 ◼   ► I mean, I, I, I didn't do a lot about liquid glass in overall.

00:50:49 ◼   ► Um, and I left that to Dan and iOS, but like iPadOS has some of that.

00:50:54 ◼   ► And I basically said an iPadOS, uh, in my right up there, um, I'm, I'm going to withhold judgment

00:51:01 ◼   ► for now because it's changing so much on the Mac.

00:51:04 ◼   ► It just, it just seems, I mean, the good news is the Mac is so the, the Tahoe updates are

00:51:09 ◼   ► so good and the, the, the interface changes are so minor that I think it's kind of a, a nothing

00:51:15 ◼   ► but it is unfortunate that, um, they have not taken the opportunity.

00:51:20 ◼   ► I can see where the priorities are.

00:51:23 ◼   ► Not only are the priorities iOS, uh, and, and then iPadOS over the Mac, but also apps over,

00:51:30 ◼   ► uh, over core OS features.

00:51:32 ◼   ► So like finder finder needs some help finder.

00:51:37 ◼   ► I was pointing this out, um, last week on a couple of podcasts, like the finder toolbars,

00:51:42 ◼   ► not only are the finder toolbars a mess, but they're also bad because nobody like I, you can't

00:51:49 ◼   ► add, they added quick actions a long time ago.

00:51:51 ◼   ► So you like, imagine how useful a finder, uh, toolbar could be if you could put a specific

00:51:57 ◼   ► like shortcut that acts on something or an act quick action that acts on something that's

00:52:01 ◼   ► in a file and then you could click it and then click in the toolbar and it would do a thing.

00:52:05 ◼   ► That would be so great.

00:52:06 ◼   ► Well, quick actions are just not in the toolbar at all.

00:52:10 ◼   ► Uh, you have to go down into the action menu and then, and then you will be, if you are

00:52:15 ◼   ► lucky, you will then get a services drop down at the bottom.

00:52:19 ◼   ► Okay.

00:52:20 ◼   ► Well, that's disappointing, but here's the clincher is if you, so then I was like, okay, let's

00:52:25 ◼   ► customize the toolbar.

00:52:25 ◼   ► You customize the toolbar.

00:52:27 ◼   ► And one of the first commands you'll see that's available to be, to be put in the toolbar

00:52:32 ◼   ► of every finder window on your Mac is burn a disc.

00:52:38 ◼   ► Where else are you going to do it?

00:52:39 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:52:40 ◼   ► I mean, I know, I know, but I think my point, my point is it feels very much like this part

00:52:47 ◼   ► of the Mac, which I would argue was a core part of the Mac has not gotten any attention

00:52:53 ◼   ► in a very long time.

00:52:55 ◼   ► The fact that that button is there shows that no one's looked at it in a while with a critical

00:52:59 ◼   ► eye, cause it shouldn't be that clear.

00:53:01 ◼   ► They've added new features over the last five years that aren't in there, but burn is still

00:53:04 ◼   ► there.

00:53:05 ◼   ► Like, and again, I'm not trying to say burn should be removed.

00:53:07 ◼   ► If people are still burning discs, fine.

00:53:10 ◼   ► It's just that it shows you like, that's the kind of stuff that's in there is old stuff

00:53:16 ◼   ► that's been there for 15 years, 20 years.

00:53:19 ◼   ► And the new stuff they've added isn't in there at all.

00:53:22 ◼   ► So that it shows me, and this is why I bring it up is Finder to me is a core part of the

00:53:27 ◼   ► Mac experience.

00:53:28 ◼   ► But I think within Apple, they forget about it because it's not photos and music, which

00:53:34 ◼   ► are apps that are across platform and matter.

00:53:36 ◼   ► And then they make changes on iOS and they're like, ah, we need to change that on the music

00:53:40 ◼   ► app on the Mac too, or whatever.

00:53:43 ◼   ► And, uh, and I think that's, I think that's how a lot of the sort of decision-making.

00:53:47 ◼   ► So like this menu bar thing is clever, but it's also motivated by how do we do control

00:53:53 ◼   ► center on the Mac?

00:53:54 ◼   ► So it's prompted by the existence of control center on other platforms pushing into the

00:53:58 ◼   ► Mac and, and whatever they did to files on, on iOS that, uh, there's a disconnect there,

00:54:06 ◼   ► I guess with the Finder, uh, to a certain extent.

00:54:09 ◼   ► Cause like, I don't know, I don't know what to tell you.

00:54:11 ◼   ► I just, I had a real, in the article, I make a joke of it, but it's really much like, where

00:54:17 ◼   ► was I?

00:54:17 ◼   ► Right.

00:54:17 ◼   ► Toolbars.

00:54:18 ◼   ► It's like, it's just kind of a spiral that I go in where I start to dig into some of this

00:54:22 ◼   ► stuff that I think is core to the Mac.

00:54:24 ◼   ► And it just looks like there's just dust there.

00:54:27 ◼   ► Like nobody's really even paying attention to it.

00:54:29 ◼   ► And it's too bad.

00:54:30 ◼   ► Just to wrap up our conversation on the, the betas for right now, um, with beta four and

00:54:37 ◼   ► then with the, the, the public beta liquid glass, they put the glass back in liquid glass.

00:54:41 ◼   ► So it returned to transparency again.

00:54:43 ◼   ► Right.

00:54:44 ◼   ► Um, we've spoken about it before we had another long conversation about it on connective, which

00:54:48 ◼   ► I'll put a link in the show notes too.

00:54:49 ◼   ► If people want to listen to, but I think it just shows that the obvious is here, which

00:54:54 ◼   ► is they are still working this out and it's going to go all the way to the end and maybe

00:54:58 ◼   ► And Apple intelligence news summaries are back.

00:55:05 ◼   ► So in beta four, they make you go back through the setup of Apple intelligence summaries.

00:55:13 ◼   ► You have to re-enable them, even if you already had them enabled.

00:55:16 ◼   ► It actually also resets your preferences, which I found to be annoying.

00:55:19 ◼   ► So like I'm now, cause I use this feature, but I don't have it on for every app.

00:55:24 ◼   ► So I'm now having to turn it back off again for the apps that I had it off for.

00:55:28 ◼   ► But with this news and entertainment returns, my expectation is there is a new model powering

00:55:34 ◼   ► this, which is why everything got reset again.

00:55:37 ◼   ► Um, and they have a, so the news and entertainment that got turned off and the BBC was complaining

00:55:42 ◼   ► rightly so.

00:55:43 ◼   ► You can now turn it on again.

00:55:45 ◼   ► If you want to turn it on, when you tap it, a big red text appears, which says summarization

00:55:52 ◼   ► may change the meaning of original headlines, verify information.

00:55:55 ◼   ► And I noticed for any app that is in the news category, the news or entertainment category,

00:56:03 ◼   ► it says in caps summarized by Apple intelligence at the bottom of the notifications, which it doesn't

00:56:10 ◼   ► for other app types.

00:56:12 ◼   ► Um, and I also got for some apps, a, a prompt, which says continue summarizing groups and

00:56:19 ◼   ► notifications.

00:56:20 ◼   ► Summaries may contain errors.

00:56:22 ◼   ► So to do it a lot here, this is what they're trying to do.

00:56:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:56:25 ◼   ► But it kind of makes, this just makes me, why are you doing it then?

00:56:28 ◼   ► Like, why tell me so many times that there's going to be errors or I need to check the information

00:56:35 ◼   ► myself.

00:56:36 ◼   ► Just don't do it for news and entertainment apps.

00:56:38 ◼   ► Just don't do it.

00:56:40 ◼   ► And then you don't have to, because all of this, it doesn't make me feel like the intelligence

00:56:46 ◼   ► is intelligent.

00:56:47 ◼   ► It undermines the entire product.

00:56:50 ◼   ► So just don't do it for these, for these app types and it will be fine.

00:56:55 ◼   ► You can see how torn they are about the whole thing, right?

00:56:58 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:56:58 ◼   ► They're like, well, we need to do this, but we also don't like it.

00:57:00 ◼   ► I was like, okay, just keep, just keep doing it for messaging apps and stuff like that.

00:57:04 ◼   ► I just don't do it for news apps.

00:57:06 ◼   ► Like, I would argue that news apps are not the right avenue anyway, right?

00:57:12 ◼   ► Like, for example, Overcast is one where I turned it off because my podcasts are so different

00:57:21 ◼   ► that when you condense them, it doesn't make any sense.

00:57:26 ◼   ► Like you, you end up with, for me, I end up with like political news, video games, and tech

00:57:32 ◼   ► news in one summary, which is, it just doesn't make any sense when I see it that way.

00:57:37 ◼   ► So it makes more sense to me to just not do it for that, but it's like contextual summaries

00:57:43 ◼   ► around like a certain conversation that's happening in a messaging app makes infinitely

00:57:47 ◼   ► more sense than trying to summarize a bunch of notifications for things that are completely

00:57:52 ◼   ► different from each other, which is what you get in the news and entertainment category

00:57:55 ◼   ► and less in the other categories.

00:57:57 ◼   ► So they should just, just give it up because I tell you what will happen, Apple, it doesn't

00:58:01 ◼   ► matter what you do.

00:58:02 ◼   ► The BBC is waiting.

00:58:04 ◼   ► They want this to happen again so they can write about it again.

00:58:08 ◼   ► And then you're right back in it again.

00:58:09 ◼   ► And so then, you know, well, then they'll say, well, we just claimed it and we give people

00:58:14 ◼   ► options to turn it off.

00:58:15 ◼   ► And some people find it useful.

00:58:17 ◼   ► And Jason, the BBC will say it's not good enough.

00:58:19 ◼   ► We all know.

00:58:20 ◼   ► Well, I know, I know, but I think that maybe they'll say we think, but Apple can also,

00:58:25 ◼   ► the reason Apple backed down on the other one, because they realized that it wasn't good

00:58:29 ◼   ► enough.

00:58:29 ◼   ► But here, I think what they'll say is exactly that.

00:58:31 ◼   ► They'll say, yeah, but it's marked as us, not you.

00:58:35 ◼   ► People can turn it off if they don't want it.

00:58:37 ◼   ► But some of our customers find it very valuable.

00:58:39 ◼   ► And that's why we offer it.

00:58:41 ◼   ► The end.

00:58:42 ◼   ► And if the BBC wants to keep complaining, Apple will just, you know, brush off their shoulder

00:58:47 ◼   ► and move on, like, that's how Apple rolls.

00:58:50 ◼   ► I agree with you, but this is different to me.

00:58:53 ◼   ► And like, if they can say that now, but then something terrible will happen again.

00:58:57 ◼   ► Right.

00:58:58 ◼   ► And then they're going to be really embarrassed again.

00:59:00 ◼   ► You know?

00:59:01 ◼   ► Maybe.

00:59:01 ◼   ► Like, what happened the first time?

00:59:03 ◼   ► Right.

00:59:04 ◼   ► Which is just like, what does it say?

00:59:06 ◼   ► Like, Luigi Mangione killed himself.

00:59:08 ◼   ► Killed himself.

00:59:08 ◼   ► He didn't.

00:59:09 ◼   ► Right.

00:59:09 ◼   ► And so like, how many of these stories do they want to be out there?

00:59:12 ◼   ► Because news agencies will keep writing about it because it's kind of like sport.

00:59:17 ◼   ► for them in a way, I think, right?

00:59:19 ◼   ► To write about that kind of stuff?

00:59:20 ◼   ► I think this has got a chance of, I think what Apple's built in is deniability.

00:59:25 ◼   ► To say, look, people can turn it off.

00:59:27 ◼   ► It's marked as us and not you.

00:59:29 ◼   ► We give everybody the opportunity to keep it or turn it off as they go.

00:59:35 ◼   ► You know, many of our users find it valuable.

00:59:38 ◼   ► I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what they'll say.

00:59:40 ◼   ► And then that'll be it.

00:59:41 ◼   ► But you can see Apple's fundamental imbalance about this feature by the fact that they have

00:59:48 ◼   ► to ship it, but also have to disclaim it in 10 different ways.

00:59:53 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you by Z-Biotics.

00:59:56 ◼   ► Let's face it.

00:59:57 ◼   ► After a night with drinks, we don't all bounce back the next day like we used to.

01:00:01 ◼   ► A lot of us have to make the choice between fully enjoying the night or making sure we have

01:00:04 ◼   ► a good next day.

01:00:05 ◼   ► But thankfully, pre-alcohol is here to help.

01:00:08 ◼   ► Z-Biotics pre-alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic.

01:00:14 ◼   ► It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking.

01:00:18 ◼   ► Here's how it works.

01:00:20 ◼   ► When you drink, alcohol gets involved in a toxic byproduct in the gut.

01:00:23 ◼   ► It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for rough days after drinking.

01:00:29 ◼   ► Pre-alcohol produces an enzyme to break this product down.

01:00:32 ◼   ► Just remember, pre-alcohol is your first drink of the night and drink responsibly and you'll

01:00:37 ◼   ► be feeling your best tomorrow.

01:00:39 ◼   ► So for me, I like to have a fancy cocktail every now and then.

01:00:43 ◼   ► But over the years, the types of drinks that I can drink have changed.

01:00:47 ◼   ► Like, I have always loved bourbon, but it came to a certain point in the last few years

01:00:51 ◼   ► that if I had one Old Fashioned, I just wouldn't feel great the next day.

01:00:54 ◼   ► And it's something that I miss because I enjoy this drink a lot, but then I just couldn't

01:00:58 ◼   ► have it anymore.

01:00:59 ◼   ► Well, this weekend, like I drank a Z-Biotic.

01:01:02 ◼   ► I had an Old Fashioned and I wouldn't have known the next day.

01:01:05 ◼   ► And it has been years since I've been able to have that feeling.

01:01:09 ◼   ► So I felt better and I could have the drink that I wanted.

01:01:12 ◼   ► The final days of summer are here for you to enjoy.

01:01:15 ◼   ► Whether you're heading to the beach, camping in the woods or squeezing in one last vacation

01:01:19 ◼   ► road trip.

01:01:19 ◼   ► Don't forget to bring Z-Biotics pre-alcohol probiotic drink.

01:01:23 ◼   ► Drink a pre-alcohol before drinking and enjoy every day of summer to the fullest.

01:01:27 ◼   ► Go to zbiotics.com slash upgradefm to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you

01:01:33 ◼   ► use the code upgradefm at checkout.

01:01:35 ◼   ► Z-Biotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee.

01:01:38 ◼   ► So if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money.

01:01:41 ◼   ► No questions asked.

01:01:42 ◼   ► Remember, go to zbiotics.com slash upgradefm and use the code upgradefm at checkout for 15%

01:01:49 ◼   ► off.

01:01:49 ◼   ► A thanks to Z-Biotics for their support of this show and all of Relay.

01:01:53 ◼   ► All right.

01:01:55 ◼   ► So it is the summer of fun.

01:01:57 ◼   ► Summer of fun.

01:01:58 ◼   ► And we have something happening right now.

01:02:01 ◼   ► I don't know what it is.

01:02:02 ◼   ► So why don't you set it up for me?

01:02:03 ◼   ► All right.

01:02:04 ◼   ► Well, this is what I'm calling the Streaming Sounds of Summer.

01:02:07 ◼   ► Okay.

01:02:08 ◼   ► And I'm going to play some sounds for you.

01:02:11 ◼   ► And I want you to attempt to identify where they come from.

01:02:20 ◼   ► Okay.

01:02:21 ◼   ► All right.

01:02:23 ◼   ► So I think, I think what we should do here is I'm going to play them in an order and I'm

01:02:29 ◼   ► going to have you guess what they are.

01:02:34 ◼   ► And then we'll go back and we'll, uh, and, and we'll, we'll grade you.

01:02:39 ◼   ► Is it one?

01:02:40 ◼   ► Are you going to have to guess one at a time?

01:02:41 ◼   ► Yeah, I think so.

01:02:43 ◼   ► Okay.

01:02:44 ◼   ► But you can go back.

01:02:44 ◼   ► You can go back.

01:02:45 ◼   ► Okay.

01:02:46 ◼   ► Because we'll lock it in.

01:02:46 ◼   ► There's something I'm going to want, I'm going to want to hear.

01:02:48 ◼   ► We'll lock it in at the end.

01:02:49 ◼   ► And some of these, so my inspiration here is that I feel we live in an area where everybody's

01:02:54 ◼   ► got, uh, uh, a thing and they all sound exactly the same.

01:02:58 ◼   ► Okay.

01:02:59 ◼   ► I don't know what that means.

01:03:01 ◼   ► Well, you'll, you'll, oh, you'll hear it.

01:03:04 ◼   ► Okay.

01:03:04 ◼   ► Are you ready?

01:03:04 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm ready.

01:03:05 ◼   ► Are you ready?

01:03:06 ◼   ► Can you, you, uh, all right, here we go.

01:03:08 ◼   ► Any idea?

01:03:17 ◼   ► I have no idea what that is.

01:03:19 ◼   ► Can I ask a question?

01:03:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:03:21 ◼   ► Are these, are these sounds any way related to each other?

01:03:25 ◼   ► Like, is there a theme?

01:03:27 ◼   ► Uh, most of them are things you might find while watching TV.

01:03:32 ◼   ► Okay.

01:03:33 ◼   ► But not all.

01:03:34 ◼   ► Okay.

01:03:34 ◼   ► All right.

01:03:35 ◼   ► Cause I feel like we live in the era, era of that.

01:03:38 ◼   ► And, and these are all modern.

01:03:41 ◼   ► Like these are all now?

01:03:42 ◼   ► Yes.

01:03:43 ◼   ► Oh no.

01:03:43 ◼   ► They're all now?

01:03:44 ◼   ► Okay.

01:03:45 ◼   ► Give me the second one.

01:03:46 ◼   ► Cause I have no idea.

01:03:47 ◼   ► Uh, one will say no idea.

01:03:49 ◼   ► I didn't think you would, but I wanted, that was like a trial.

01:03:52 ◼   ► It reminded me of something like a PlayStation thing, but I know it's not a PlayStation thing.

01:03:56 ◼   ► Here's, here's number two.

01:03:57 ◼   ► Oh my God.

01:04:02 ◼   ► I know this one.

01:04:03 ◼   ► I think.

01:04:05 ◼   ► Is it like LG or something?

01:04:07 ◼   ► Is that like the sound, the LG TV?

01:04:09 ◼   ► We'll just, we'll just move on, but I'm taking notes of what you're saying here.

01:04:14 ◼   ► Okay.

01:04:14 ◼   ► Okay.

01:04:15 ◼   ► Here's the next one.

01:04:16 ◼   ► This one's, this one I think is the easiest one, but just for, for everybody.

01:04:26 ◼   ► Okay.

01:04:26 ◼   ► This is hilarious because when you take these things out of their context, because I know

01:04:32 ◼   ► that sound, I know that sound intimately.

01:04:35 ◼   ► I have no idea.

01:04:36 ◼   ► I can't, I know that noise.

01:04:39 ◼   ► Oh, that's Disney plus.

01:04:43 ◼   ► That one's Disney plus.

01:04:45 ◼   ► I, I, I, I, I'm sure of it.

01:04:47 ◼   ► Okay.

01:04:47 ◼   ► I'm sure of it.

01:04:47 ◼   ► Okay.

01:04:48 ◼   ► The snap, I think is the thing that gives it away.

01:04:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:04:51 ◼   ► All right.

01:04:52 ◼   ► Here's, here's the next.

01:04:52 ◼   ► Why do they have the snap?

01:04:53 ◼   ► What is that?

01:04:54 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:04:56 ◼   ► Why is Disney, why does the Disney plus, I mean, someone could correct me if I'm wrong, but

01:05:00 ◼   ► like.

01:05:00 ◼   ► I think the snap is what makes the plus.

01:05:01 ◼   ► It's a magical thing that makes the plus.

01:05:03 ◼   ► Like Disney have so many iconic sounds.

01:05:06 ◼   ► Why does this not use any of them?

01:05:08 ◼   ► I don't understand it.

01:05:09 ◼   ► It's Thanos.

01:05:10 ◼   ► He killed half the.

01:05:11 ◼   ► Oh, there you go.

01:05:13 ◼   ► There you go.

01:05:13 ◼   ► Well, that is actually it.

01:05:15 ◼   ► Like Disney plus killed half of Marvel's bottom line.

01:05:17 ◼   ► And that was slap.

01:05:19 ◼   ► That's it.

01:05:20 ◼   ► All right.

01:05:21 ◼   ► Here's the next one.

01:05:21 ◼   ► Get ready.

01:05:22 ◼   ► Oh God.

01:05:28 ◼   ► Hang on.

01:05:29 ◼   ► This is so annoying.

01:05:33 ◼   ► Yes.

01:05:34 ◼   ► That's why I'm doing this.

01:05:35 ◼   ► Cause we live in.

01:05:37 ◼   ► I came to the realization that they're all exactly the same.

01:05:40 ◼   ► With that one.

01:05:41 ◼   ► Everybody's got to have a chime.

01:05:43 ◼   ► Like a documentary thing.

01:05:45 ◼   ► When I hear that, I'm like, oh, that one's like documentaries.

01:05:49 ◼   ► Oh God.

01:05:51 ◼   ► Okay.

01:05:52 ◼   ► I feel like I only have one of them.

01:05:54 ◼   ► Like I am convinced of Disney plus.

01:05:56 ◼   ► We can go back through once we cycle through them.

01:05:58 ◼   ► I'm going to write that down as a documentaries thing.

01:06:01 ◼   ► And we're going to move on to number five.

01:06:03 ◼   ► Here it is.

01:06:03 ◼   ► This is, this might also be the easiest one.

01:06:05 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:06:06 ◼   ► HBO.

01:06:07 ◼   ► That one.

01:06:10 ◼   ► That, that's that.

01:06:11 ◼   ► That is actually the easiest one.

01:06:12 ◼   ► I was waiting for that one.

01:06:13 ◼   ► You know, like that one.

01:06:14 ◼   ► I know.

01:06:15 ◼   ► Sure.

01:06:16 ◼   ► Okay.

01:06:16 ◼   ► Here's the next one.

01:06:17 ◼   ► Number six.

01:06:18 ◼   ► I feel like I've never heard that one in my life.

01:06:26 ◼   ► Maybe not.

01:06:27 ◼   ► I have no, I had no idea.

01:06:29 ◼   ► It sounded like it was a car.

01:06:31 ◼   ► Like, I don't know what that was.

01:06:32 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:06:32 ◼   ► This is, yeah.

01:06:34 ◼   ► I mean, these could be, I mean, one way I could put this is like, it's streaming services

01:06:38 ◼   ► or cars.

01:06:38 ◼   ► You decide, which is it?

01:06:41 ◼   ► This one actually is probably the easiest one because again, the easy ones are ones that

01:06:45 ◼   ► stand out a little and are not just like every other time that's out there.

01:06:50 ◼   ► Or whatever, because no one would attempt to make something like a HBO sound because it's

01:06:56 ◼   ► actually just, it's a not pleasurable noise.

01:06:59 ◼   ► Yes.

01:06:59 ◼   ► Yes.

01:07:00 ◼   ► Okay.

01:07:01 ◼   ► Netflix.

01:07:03 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:07:04 ◼   ► That's the ta-dum.

01:07:05 ◼   ► Because that one is more than just the noise, right?

01:07:08 ◼   ► Like that is, this is what I hope Disney would do.

01:07:10 ◼   ► Where like Netflix have made their noise part of their brand.

01:07:16 ◼   ► And like, I want Disney to do it the other way around.

01:07:18 ◼   ► It has a name.

01:07:19 ◼   ► It's the ta-dum.

01:07:20 ◼   ► Ta-dum.

01:07:20 ◼   ► No, I don't know that one at all.

01:07:27 ◼   ► I've never heard that one.

01:07:28 ◼   ► I don't think, anyway, I feel like I've never heard that one.

01:07:31 ◼   ► There's so many here that just I've never heard that one.

01:07:32 ◼   ► Some of these, there's no way you can get them, but I just am enjoying because they all

01:07:35 ◼   ► sound the same.

01:07:36 ◼   ► Here is number nine.

01:07:37 ◼   ► Your laundry is done.

01:07:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:07:45 ◼   ► I don't know what that is.

01:07:46 ◼   ► I don't know what that is.

01:07:48 ◼   ► Okay.

01:07:49 ◼   ► Here's number 10.

01:07:50 ◼   ► Oh, that's the Vision Pro startup sound.

01:07:55 ◼   ► Oh, you got it.

01:07:57 ◼   ► I turned on my Vision Pro today.

01:07:59 ◼   ► I was hoping that there might be some confusion about whether the Vision Pro, okay, so I'll

01:08:05 ◼   ► just back up and say my inspiration for this is I heard the Vision Pro startup sound and

01:08:09 ◼   ► I thought, oh my God, everything has one of these things now.

01:08:13 ◼   ► It's vaguely atmospheric, like, ooo, bing, kind of sound.

01:08:18 ◼   ► The Apple TV Plus one is essentially, is very similar to that as well.

01:08:22 ◼   ► Speaking of which, number 11.

01:08:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:08:26 ◼   ► I've got to say, I may be biased here, but that's a good one.

01:08:29 ◼   ► Like, as far as these things go, because they are actually evoking something, right?

01:08:34 ◼   ► Like, you know, it's the max startup sound.

01:08:37 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:08:39 ◼   ► Here's number 12.

01:08:40 ◼   ► The max startup sound.

01:08:43 ◼   ► Can you play those in a row, like 10, 11, 12?

01:08:55 ◼   ► There's a bunch.

01:08:56 ◼   ► That's the Quadrant.

01:08:57 ◼   ► Give me the Vision Pro one as well.

01:08:58 ◼   ► Oh, wow.

01:08:59 ◼   ► That is also a good noise, but it's not as good as it is.

01:09:06 ◼   ► It's a nice noise.

01:09:06 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:09:07 ◼   ► Okay.

01:09:08 ◼   ► You want to go through these one more time?

01:09:11 ◼   ► Okay, so that's all of them?

01:09:13 ◼   ► That's all of them.

01:09:14 ◼   ► All right, yeah.

01:09:15 ◼   ► Give me the ones I don't know again.

01:09:17 ◼   ► Okay.

01:09:18 ◼   ► Here's number one.

01:09:19 ◼   ► Okay.

01:09:25 ◼   ► Yeah, no, I don't know that one.

01:09:27 ◼   ► I'm going to say...

01:09:28 ◼   ► I think it sounds perfectly like all of them, in the sense that it's sort of a...

01:09:34 ◼   ► Yeah, and then like...

01:09:36 ◼   ► I'm going to say that's National Geographic.

01:09:41 ◼   ► Okay.

01:09:42 ◼   ► You said, I know this one.

01:09:45 ◼   ► Is it from an LG appliance to this?

01:09:47 ◼   ► See, I do feel like I know this one, but I can't put my finger on what it is.

01:09:57 ◼   ► But like, I feel like this one I've heard before.

01:09:59 ◼   ► Okay.

01:10:00 ◼   ► Okay.

01:10:01 ◼   ► Here's number four.

01:10:02 ◼   ► A documentaries thing, you said.

01:10:09 ◼   ► See, I know I've heard this.

01:10:14 ◼   ► You have heard that.

01:10:15 ◼   ► Can you play it again for me?

01:10:16 ◼   ► Oh, this one's going to annoy me.

01:10:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:10:26 ◼   ► And this is part of one of my inspirations for this, is that sound.

01:10:30 ◼   ► But in conjunction with other sounds, including this one, number six.

01:10:36 ◼   ► Let me...

01:10:42 ◼   ► Now, I'm going to play these in conjunction, because this really was where this whole idea

01:10:46 ◼   ► started, actually, was I turned on a TV show, and when I turned...

01:10:51 ◼   ► Every episode of this particular TV show that I watched, this is what I heard.

01:10:55 ◼   ► Every time, it played Sting 1, and then it played Sting 2 twice with their little animation.

01:11:14 ◼   ► And I'm like, what are you doing?

01:11:15 ◼   ► Why so many little atmospheric chimes in the world?

01:11:20 ◼   ► So, do you have any thoughts about number six?

01:11:21 ◼   ► Is it Paramount Plus?

01:11:28 ◼   ► It is not.

01:11:31 ◼   ► In fact, Paramount Plus doesn't have a sound.

01:11:34 ◼   ► Oh.

01:11:35 ◼   ► I don't think so.

01:11:36 ◼   ► At least in not my apps, it doesn't have a sound.

01:11:38 ◼   ► Oh.

01:11:39 ◼   ► Number...

01:11:42 ◼   ► Play that one that I was just...

01:11:44 ◼   ► Play the other one.

01:11:45 ◼   ► It's Hulu.

01:11:48 ◼   ► Or FX.

01:11:48 ◼   ► It's not Hulu.

01:11:49 ◼   ► FX?

01:11:50 ◼   ► It's FX.

01:11:50 ◼   ► It is.

01:11:51 ◼   ► Yeah, that's what I meant.

01:11:52 ◼   ► So, it's FX, and I'll just reveal it now.

01:11:54 ◼   ► Number six is Hulu.

01:11:56 ◼   ► Okay, I don't get Hulu.

01:11:57 ◼   ► And if you play a show on Disney Plus that's from Hulu, that's from FX, it decides, we're

01:12:02 ◼   ► playing them all.

01:12:03 ◼   ► Sometimes twice.

01:12:05 ◼   ► Wow.

01:12:07 ◼   ► I'm like, why do I need Hulu and FX and FX again?

01:12:11 ◼   ► Wait, why does it play it twice?

01:12:12 ◼   ► I think it was an error.

01:12:13 ◼   ► I think it was saying, like, I think what they had is they had the FX baked into the

01:12:19 ◼   ► show, and then they also had a pre-roll of the FX, because it was FX content on Disney

01:12:23 ◼   ► Plus, and they fixed it.

01:12:24 ◼   ► I don't see the double anymore.

01:12:26 ◼   ► Okay.

01:12:27 ◼   ► But, oh my goodness.

01:12:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:12:29 ◼   ► The FX one, I know that one from, like, yeah, I've watched some shows that are on, I watch

01:12:33 ◼   ► them on Disney Plus, but we still get the FX branding.

01:12:36 ◼   ► Sure.

01:12:36 ◼   ► Hulu, we don't get that.

01:12:37 ◼   ► You don't get the Hulu.

01:12:38 ◼   ► We have, like, a star.

01:12:39 ◼   ► It's like star, which I don't know why that's a brand that exists.

01:12:42 ◼   ► Some of these are going to be British versus US, but the Americans are loving it, because

01:12:46 ◼   ► this is, again, they're all the same.

01:12:48 ◼   ► So this is another one you'd never heard of.

01:12:50 ◼   ► Just giving you one more go.

01:12:51 ◼   ► So what I'll say about this one is, although it's generic, it has three notes instead of

01:13:00 ◼   ► one, which gives it a little personality.

01:13:03 ◼   ► So I like this one.

01:13:04 ◼   ► It's a little cheery.

01:13:04 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:13:06 ◼   ► What is it?

01:13:07 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:13:07 ◼   ► That's Peacock, which is NBC, which famously NBC has three tones, and it's ding, ding, ding,

01:13:15 ◼   ► G-E-C, which stands for the General Electric Corporation, I guess.

01:13:19 ◼   ► Anyway, it's, I don't know if that's true or not, but anyway, so it goes ding, ding, ding,

01:13:25 ◼   ► it's like an inversion of the NBC theme.

01:13:27 ◼   ► All right, here's nine.

01:13:28 ◼   ► This sounds like a television turning off.

01:13:36 ◼   ► Oh, the irony of that, because this is longtime HBO rival, Showtime.

01:13:40 ◼   ► Ah, okay.

01:13:41 ◼   ► Which you don't get.

01:13:43 ◼   ► You got the, you got the Vision Pro.

01:13:44 ◼   ► Okay, the ones that we still haven't resolved are, are back at the beginning.

01:13:50 ◼   ► So there's this one.

01:13:51 ◼   ► So there's this one, number two.

01:13:52 ◼   ► Any last guess?

01:13:56 ◼   ► Is this a TV network thing?

01:14:00 ◼   ► It is.

01:14:02 ◼   ► Is it Discovery?

01:14:03 ◼   ► It's not.

01:14:05 ◼   ► It's Prime Video.

01:14:06 ◼   ► Oh, okay.

01:14:07 ◼   ► These are the cheery sounds of Jeff Bezos and Amazon coming into your house.

01:14:11 ◼   ► Prime, they should be doing a better job than that.

01:14:13 ◼   ► They should.

01:14:14 ◼   ► There should be like an Amazon sound.

01:14:16 ◼   ► There should be a sound.

01:14:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:14:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:14:19 ◼   ► Maybe it should just be Alexa telling you something.

01:14:21 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:14:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:14:22 ◼   ► All right.

01:14:23 ◼   ► That leaves us with this one.

01:14:25 ◼   ► And you're never going to get it, but I'll just say, when you made that aside about how

01:14:34 ◼   ► this almost sounds like a car, that's the default sound that plays when you get into my car.

01:14:40 ◼   ► That's the Chevy Bolt, which is another part of my inspiration here, which is, why are these

01:14:46 ◼   ► in cars too?

01:14:47 ◼   ► Why does my car have a startup sound?

01:14:50 ◼   ► Fortunately, you can turn it off.

01:14:52 ◼   ► Cars have a startup sounds.

01:14:54 ◼   ► They're engines.

01:14:55 ◼   ► And there's also an alternate version that plays sometimes, which is this one.

01:14:59 ◼   ► But again, it's all just, there's a shutdown sound too.

01:15:05 ◼   ► It's like Chevy decided, you know, getting in and out of your car should be a fun experience

01:15:10 ◼   ► where music, little chimes play, like you're watching a TV show or something.

01:15:17 ◼   ► And Mike, that brings us to the end of the streaming sounds of the summer.

01:15:22 ◼   ► This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by Sentry.

01:15:27 ◼   ► Okay, founders, it's time to be honest.

01:15:29 ◼   ► How much time is your team wasted on debugging?

01:15:32 ◼   ► If you're like most startups, this is way too much.

01:15:35 ◼   ► Your team should be focused on shipping features and not chasing down bugs.

01:15:38 ◼   ► And that's where Sentry comes in.

01:15:40 ◼   ► It's a real-time error monitoring and tracing platform.

01:15:42 ◼   ► So you know exactly when something breaks, where it happened and why.

01:15:46 ◼   ► No more 1am Slack threads or digging through endless logs.

01:15:49 ◼   ► Now here's the game changer.

01:15:51 ◼   ► Seer, Sentry's new AI debugging agent.

01:15:54 ◼   ► It's like hiring an engineer who already knows your entire code base.

01:15:58 ◼   ► Seer finds the true root cause 94% of the time.

01:16:01 ◼   ► It can even generate merge-ready pull requests, plus optional tests to prevent regressions.

01:16:06 ◼   ► The bottom line is you ship faster, your team isn't drowning in bug alerts,

01:16:10 ◼   ► and instead of grinding through logs, your developers are back to building the product.

01:16:13 ◼   ► And I know that that is super important to the developers that I am friends with,

01:16:17 ◼   ► the developers that I speak to.

01:16:19 ◼   ► They want to be building new features for the apps that they enjoy,

01:16:22 ◼   ► the apps that they love working on, rather than digging through errors and bugs.

01:16:27 ◼   ► Like if you find something, if something happens, you want to fix it,

01:16:30 ◼   ► but being given the ability to quickly find out where that problem is, is fantastic.

01:16:36 ◼   ► And I, as a user, I much prefer a bug-free experience when I'm using apps.

01:16:40 ◼   ► It's important to me in the apps that I choose to use.

01:16:42 ◼   ► I want performance to be great.

01:16:43 ◼   ► I don't want to be bumping up against things that are broken.

01:16:46 ◼   ► And that's what makes Sentry and Seer so awesome.

01:16:49 ◼   ► The good news is users, new users will get three months free of the team plan,

01:16:54 ◼   ► which covers 150,000 errors.

01:16:56 ◼   ► Click the link in the show notes, or go to Sentry.io and use the code UPGRADEPOD.

01:17:01 ◼   ► That's S-E-N-T-R-Y dot I-O and the code UPGRADEPOD.

01:17:05 ◼   ► Or just click the link in the show notes.

01:17:07 ◼   ► Our thanks to Sentry for their support of this show and all of Relay.

01:17:14 ◼   ► It's a rumor around uptime, Jason Snow.

01:17:16 ◼   ► Yeehaw, yeehaw.

01:17:17 ◼   ► Taiwanese research formed Trendforce's corroborating reporting from Ming-Chi Kuo

01:17:23 ◼   ► that the folding iPhone will have a 7.8-inch inner display

01:17:27 ◼   ► and a 5.5-inch outer display.

01:17:30 ◼   ► I thought this was particularly interesting

01:17:33 ◼   ► because that would make the outer display the size of the iPhone mini.

01:17:39 ◼   ► The iPod mini?

01:17:40 ◼   ► iPad mini?

01:17:41 ◼   ► The iPhone mini.

01:17:42 ◼   ► The inside, sorry, the outer display.

01:17:44 ◼   ► Oh, the outer display would be the size of an iPhone mini.

01:17:48 ◼   ► How soon I forget my classic iPhone mini.

01:17:51 ◼   ► Because I was like, huh, what is it?

01:17:53 ◼   ► I was trying to get a context of what is a 5.5-inch screen,

01:17:59 ◼   ► and I was like clicking through old phones on the iPhone compare.

01:18:04 ◼   ► It's probably taller and narrower, but I don't know.

01:18:07 ◼   ► It's interesting.

01:18:08 ◼   ► Interesting.

01:18:09 ◼   ► It depends on the route that Apple chooses to go, right?

01:18:12 ◼   ► And so the last kind of screen of that size

01:18:16 ◼   ► was a 5.4-inch screen on the iPhone 13 mini.

01:18:19 ◼   ► Everything else is like six inches and above.

01:18:22 ◼   ► All right.

01:18:23 ◼   ► So who knows?

01:18:25 ◼   ► I mean, it's going to be really interesting to see

01:18:26 ◼   ► what screen Apple prioritized

01:18:29 ◼   ► because the shape of each screen differs massively

01:18:33 ◼   ► depending on whether you want something kind of squarish on the front,

01:18:37 ◼   ► which means you get something kind of squarish on the inside,

01:18:39 ◼   ► or you go with something tall on the front,

01:18:41 ◼   ► which means you get something kind of like less tablet-sized on the inside.

01:18:46 ◼   ► So it's going to be really interesting to see what they do.

01:18:49 ◼   ► But I just thought that was really interesting.

01:18:51 ◼   ► Also, recently,

01:18:52 ◼   ► Ming-Chi Kuo said that he expects the folding iPhone to have Touch ID and not Face ID,

01:18:57 ◼   ► which I think is curious.

01:19:00 ◼   ► I would be, as a user, frustrated if I spent what will probably be

01:19:06 ◼   ► somewhere between $2,000 and $3,000 on this device than it had Touch ID.

01:19:12 ◼   ► Yeah, but if they can't get Face ID in there because of the size of everything,

01:19:17 ◼   ► I could see it.

01:19:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:19:21 ◼   ► Also, there is this, which is you'd need to do it twice.

01:19:25 ◼   ► My kind of feeling on that is that's not my problem.

01:19:31 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:19:32 ◼   ► It's like, so you work it out.

01:19:34 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:19:35 ◼   ► Like, how long have you been doing Face ID?

01:19:37 ◼   ► You can't shrink it down by now?

01:19:38 ◼   ► That's kind of how I feel.

01:19:40 ◼   ► Well, and it's expensive,

01:19:41 ◼   ► and you have to put it on twice

01:19:43 ◼   ► because you've got to be able to authenticate when it's folded out, too.

01:19:46 ◼   ► Still.

01:19:50 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:19:51 ◼   ► Fair enough.

01:19:52 ◼   ► If I'm going to be paying the price of two iPhones,

01:19:55 ◼   ► I want the functionality of two iPhones.

01:19:57 ◼   ► Give me two Touch ID.

01:19:59 ◼   ► Because they're going to put a camera on the inside.

01:20:00 ◼   ► Two Face IDs.

01:20:01 ◼   ► Right?

01:20:01 ◼   ► Like Face IDs.

01:20:02 ◼   ► They're going to put a camera on the inside.

01:20:03 ◼   ► So I want, even if I had two Dynamic Islands,

01:20:07 ◼   ► give me two Dynamic Islands, you know?

01:20:08 ◼   ► Work it out.

01:20:09 ◼   ► Okay.

01:20:10 ◼   ► Mac rumors this reporting via an anonymous source

01:20:13 ◼   ► that the iPhone 17 Pro could feature an 8x zoom lens

01:20:18 ◼   ► as part of the overall upgrade of the cameras

01:20:21 ◼   ► that would be three 48-megapixel sensors

01:20:23 ◼   ► and that the telescope lens,

01:20:27 ◼   ► the, what do they call it?

01:20:28 ◼   ► Periscope lens?

01:20:28 ◼   ► The Apple, I have a name for it.

01:20:31 ◼   ► Tetraprism?

01:20:33 ◼   ► Tetraprism, that's it, yeah.

01:20:35 ◼   ► It will be eight times.

01:20:36 ◼   ► And that the Pro iPhone could feature more Pro features

01:20:40 ◼   ► in the Final Cut camera app

01:20:42 ◼   ► as part of a major upgrade.

01:20:43 ◼   ► Okay.

01:20:44 ◼   ► This rumor aligns with something Mark Gurman

01:20:47 ◼   ► had said previously,

01:20:48 ◼   ► that Apple wanted to push further into the creator space

01:20:50 ◼   ► and encourage people to be only using their iPhones

01:20:54 ◼   ► for creation,

01:20:54 ◼   ► not using external vlog-like cameras,

01:20:57 ◼   ► and that they might bring some features

01:21:00 ◼   ► to maybe in a big overhaul of Final Cut camera for that.

01:21:03 ◼   ► Sure.

01:21:03 ◼   ► I expect maybe they're feeling some pressure

01:21:05 ◼   ► from companies like DJI,

01:21:06 ◼   ► like the Osmo stuff people seem to really dig

01:21:08 ◼   ► and maybe Apple wants to kind of take some of that mind share back.

01:21:13 ◼   ► that there would also be a second button on the phone

01:21:17 ◼   ► to assist with camera control features,

01:21:19 ◼   ► so there would be another camera control button,

01:21:22 ◼   ► and that the copper color rumor is accurate.

01:21:26 ◼   ► Apparently, according to Mac Rumors,

01:21:27 ◼   ► this person works at a production company

01:21:29 ◼   ► that is said to be working on a commercial for the iPhone.

01:21:33 ◼   ► This person is probably going to get fired.

01:21:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:21:36 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:21:36 ◼   ► But, yeah.

01:21:39 ◼   ► Okay.

01:21:39 ◼   ► I mean, the second button,

01:21:40 ◼   ► I don't know about that.

01:21:42 ◼   ► And this is an anonymous source that wasn't corroborated.

01:21:45 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:21:48 ◼   ► Extra camera control buttons,

01:21:50 ◼   ► I don't believe it.

01:21:52 ◼   ► I just don't believe it.

01:21:53 ◼   ► I'll believe it when I see it

01:21:54 ◼   ► or when somebody more accurately reports it.

01:21:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:21:57 ◼   ► But, okay.

01:21:59 ◼   ► I mean,

01:21:59 ◼   ► never bet against Apple improving camera things.

01:22:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:22:03 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:22:03 ◼   ► The camera control button is where this falls apart for me

01:22:07 ◼   ► because it's like,

01:22:08 ◼   ► I feel like that would have gotten out by now

01:22:10 ◼   ► through the case leaks and stuff.

01:22:13 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:22:13 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

01:22:13 ◼   ► Nobody has made any kind of hint.

01:22:16 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:22:16 ◼   ► This feels like a misunderstanding.

01:22:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:22:19 ◼   ► Maybe they misunderstood what the action button was.

01:22:23 ◼   ► Like, I don't know.

01:22:24 ◼   ► But the other parts of it,

01:22:26 ◼   ► I guess, like, sure,

01:22:28 ◼   ► at some point,

01:22:29 ◼   ► the Tetraprism lens is going to increase, right?

01:22:31 ◼   ► Sure.

01:22:32 ◼   ► And if Apple is changing up the way

01:22:36 ◼   ► that this phone is going to look, right?

01:22:37 ◼   ► Like, there's that bigger camera bump.

01:22:39 ◼   ► Maybe they do that

01:22:41 ◼   ► so they can get a bit more space going on

01:22:43 ◼   ► for that lens to be further.

01:22:45 ◼   ► And the idea of them increasing,

01:22:47 ◼   ► of, like,

01:22:48 ◼   ► adding functionality to the Final Cut camera app

01:22:51 ◼   ► as part of a push for creators,

01:22:53 ◼   ► I can see there being some sense in that.

01:22:56 ◼   ► Like, that would make sense to me.

01:22:59 ◼   ► Whether they do it,

01:23:00 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:23:01 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:23:02 ◼   ► MacRumors are also reporting

01:23:04 ◼   ► on some imagery and code

01:23:05 ◼   ► found in WatchOS 26

01:23:06 ◼   ► that alludes to something like a sleep score

01:23:09 ◼   ► coming in a future update.

01:23:10 ◼   ► So it looks like this feature

01:23:12 ◼   ► would look at the sleep data

01:23:13 ◼   ► that you had from the previous night before

01:23:15 ◼   ► and give you a score

01:23:16 ◼   ► for how you performed overnight.

01:23:18 ◼   ► That's how they read it.

01:23:19 ◼   ► What I would hope this actually is

01:23:22 ◼   ► is a little bit further than that,

01:23:24 ◼   ► where it's some kind of, like,

01:23:25 ◼   ► effort score for the day.

01:23:27 ◼   ► So taking your sleep data

01:23:29 ◼   ► and your vital information

01:23:30 ◼   ► and giving you a score

01:23:32 ◼   ► for how you should perform in a day.

01:23:36 ◼   ► So, like,

01:23:37 ◼   ► Whoop does this,

01:23:38 ◼   ► Sleep++ has this,

01:23:39 ◼   ► you know,

01:23:40 ◼   ► where they are taking a look

01:23:41 ◼   ► at a bunch of different data points

01:23:43 ◼   ► and saying, like,

01:23:44 ◼   ► this is your target for your score of the day

01:23:49 ◼   ► and it should be able to answer

01:23:50 ◼   ► why you feel better or worse

01:23:52 ◼   ► and maybe could indicate

01:23:53 ◼   ► what your exercise level

01:23:55 ◼   ► and activity level should be for a day.

01:23:57 ◼   ► Like,

01:23:57 ◼   ► I don't really know

01:23:58 ◼   ► why I would need a score out of 100

01:24:00 ◼   ► for my sleep.

01:24:01 ◼   ► Like,

01:24:01 ◼   ► I don't,

01:24:01 ◼   ► that on its own

01:24:03 ◼   ► is not as useful

01:24:05 ◼   ► as then taking all the other information

01:24:06 ◼   ► that Apple has about your vitals

01:24:08 ◼   ► from the vitals app

01:24:09 ◼   ► and, like,

01:24:10 ◼   ► putting it all together.

01:24:11 ◼   ► That's what I hope this is.

01:24:12 ◼   ► And this,

01:24:12 ◼   ► to me,

01:24:13 ◼   ► feels like

01:24:14 ◼   ► something that might just be

01:24:16 ◼   ► as part of the Apple Watch

01:24:17 ◼   ► event,

01:24:19 ◼   ► like,

01:24:19 ◼   ► part of the event

01:24:20 ◼   ► where they unveil it there

01:24:21 ◼   ► because it's, like,

01:24:22 ◼   ► just doesn't really need any testing

01:24:24 ◼   ► as such for developers,

01:24:25 ◼   ► I guess.

01:24:25 ◼   ► This is, like,

01:24:26 ◼   ► a system feature.

01:24:27 ◼   ► Maybe it is somehow tied

01:24:29 ◼   ► to a new sensor of some kind.

01:24:32 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:24:35 ◼   ► Like,

01:24:35 ◼   ► I don't know if maybe

01:24:36 ◼   ► they would want the blood oxygen thing

01:24:38 ◼   ► to be handled

01:24:38 ◼   ► before they do something like this.

01:24:40 ◼   ► I'm not sure.

01:24:42 ◼   ► But, yeah,

01:24:43 ◼   ► I thought it was interesting.

01:24:43 ◼   ► It's also possible

01:24:45 ◼   ► that this is one of those features

01:24:46 ◼   ► they didn't announce at WWDC

01:24:47 ◼   ► because it wasn't going to be ready

01:24:49 ◼   ► in time for 0.0.

01:24:50 ◼   ► And they have that policy.

01:24:51 ◼   ► So this might be an example

01:24:52 ◼   ► of seeing about

01:24:53 ◼   ► some of this stuff

01:24:54 ◼   ► happening down the road.

01:24:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:24:56 ◼   ► Could be a watch launch thing

01:24:58 ◼   ► as well.

01:24:58 ◼   ► My only hesitation here is

01:25:01 ◼   ► I think Apple cares

01:25:02 ◼   ► about doing sleep features

01:25:04 ◼   ► for people who have sleep issues.

01:25:06 ◼   ► And you're trying to turn it

01:25:08 ◼   ► into something else.

01:25:09 ◼   ► And that thing

01:25:10 ◼   ► is probably valid, too.

01:25:12 ◼   ► But if this is,

01:25:13 ◼   ► if the goal here

01:25:13 ◼   ► is to get people

01:25:14 ◼   ► to sleep better,

01:25:15 ◼   ► then they might not want

01:25:18 ◼   ► to couple it

01:25:19 ◼   ► with exertion

01:25:20 ◼   ► and vitals

01:25:20 ◼   ► and things like that

01:25:21 ◼   ► to make a bigger score.

01:25:23 ◼   ► Why does a score

01:25:24 ◼   ► out of 100

01:25:24 ◼   ► help you sleep?

01:25:25 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:25:26 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:25:27 ◼   ► I'm not sure that it does.

01:25:28 ◼   ► So,

01:25:29 ◼   ► I'm not saying

01:25:30 ◼   ► this is one or the other.

01:25:31 ◼   ► I'm just thinking

01:25:32 ◼   ► you can look at this

01:25:34 ◼   ► and I think

01:25:35 ◼   ► draw the same conclusion.

01:25:36 ◼   ► The file is called

01:25:39 ◼   ► like

01:25:39 ◼   ► watch focus score

01:25:42 ◼   ► and it's a number.

01:25:44 ◼   ► Right?

01:25:46 ◼   ► Like,

01:25:46 ◼   ► if you look at the imagery

01:25:47 ◼   ► that Mac Rumors has,

01:25:49 ◼   ► like,

01:25:49 ◼   ► it's all they've got,

01:25:50 ◼   ► right?

01:25:50 ◼   ► It's like an image

01:25:51 ◼   ► with a number on it

01:25:52 ◼   ► and a bunch of rings

01:25:53 ◼   ► around it.

01:25:54 ◼   ► And so,

01:25:55 ◼   ► my iconography

01:25:55 ◼   ► that's used next to it,

01:25:57 ◼   ► one of them

01:25:58 ◼   ► is a thermometer,

01:25:59 ◼   ► apparently,

01:26:00 ◼   ► and the file

01:26:01 ◼   ► is called

01:26:02 ◼   ► watch focus score.

01:26:05 ◼   ► So,

01:26:06 ◼   ► they've said

01:26:07 ◼   ► that this is

01:26:08 ◼   ► a sleep scoring.

01:26:08 ◼   ► I don't,

01:26:09 ◼   ► I think they're wrong.

01:26:10 ◼   ► That is what I'm saying.

01:26:12 ◼   ► that's a broader

01:26:13 ◼   ► I think this is

01:26:14 ◼   ► a broader thing

01:26:15 ◼   ► because they have

01:26:16 ◼   ► the vital stuff.

01:26:17 ◼   ► Right, right.

01:26:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:26:18 ◼   ► It's all just there.

01:26:19 ◼   ► I think that

01:26:22 ◼   ► they have this information

01:26:23 ◼   ► and this is the conclusion

01:26:24 ◼   ► that seems to have been

01:26:25 ◼   ► drawn from Mac Rumors.

01:26:26 ◼   ► My read on this

01:26:28 ◼   ► information

01:26:28 ◼   ► that they have provided

01:26:29 ◼   ► unless they have

01:26:30 ◼   ► something more

01:26:31 ◼   ► is that this is actually

01:26:32 ◼   ► more of an effort

01:26:33 ◼   ► score.

01:26:34 ◼   ► Like a readiness

01:26:37 ◼   ► thing.

01:26:37 ◼   ► Let's do a little

01:26:39 ◼   ► play acting here.

01:26:40 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:26:40 ◼   ► Hey, Mike.

01:26:41 ◼   ► Hi.

01:26:42 ◼   ► I had a really

01:26:44 ◼   ► good night

01:26:45 ◼   ► last night

01:26:45 ◼   ► sleeping.

01:26:46 ◼   ► I killed it.

01:26:47 ◼   ► Okay.

01:26:47 ◼   ► Amazing.

01:26:47 ◼   ► Got an 83.

01:26:49 ◼   ► Congrats.

01:26:50 ◼   ► I'm happy for you.

01:26:52 ◼   ► That's it.

01:26:53 ◼   ► That's the act.

01:26:55 ◼   ► Okay.

01:26:56 ◼   ► I got an 83.

01:26:57 ◼   ► That was the big

01:26:58 ◼   ► punchline there.

01:26:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:26:59 ◼   ► See?

01:26:59 ◼   ► So happy for you.

01:27:01 ◼   ► Amazing.

01:27:01 ◼   ► Really happy for you.

01:27:02 ◼   ► I only got 86.7.

01:27:04 ◼   ► We all know

01:27:05 ◼   ► it's worse

01:27:05 ◼   ► to get higher.

01:27:06 ◼   ► Points.

01:27:06 ◼   ► Wow.

01:27:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:27:07 ◼   ► Out of a hundred

01:27:08 ◼   ► with a decimal.

01:27:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:27:10 ◼   ► That's too many.

01:27:11 ◼   ► That's too fine-grained.

01:27:12 ◼   ► Thousand point scale.

01:27:15 ◼   ► Too fine-grained.

01:27:16 ◼   ► Third part, yeah.

01:27:16 ◼   ► No.

01:27:17 ◼   ► It's time to lawyer up,

01:27:18 ◼   ► Jason Snell.

01:27:19 ◼   ► All right.

01:27:20 ◼   ► Clunk, clunk.

01:27:20 ◼   ► Reuters is reporting

01:27:22 ◼   ► that the recent changes

01:27:24 ◼   ► Apple made to the

01:27:25 ◼   ► App Store terms

01:27:25 ◼   ► would be enough

01:27:26 ◼   ► to satisfy EU regulators.

01:27:28 ◼   ► We did it, everybody.

01:27:30 ◼   ► We did it, everyone.

01:27:31 ◼   ► I would hope

01:27:32 ◼   ► at some point

01:27:32 ◼   ► there will be

01:27:33 ◼   ► some clarity given.

01:27:34 ◼   ► I feel like

01:27:36 ◼   ► nothing's changed

01:27:36 ◼   ► unless no one's

01:27:38 ◼   ► talking about it,

01:27:38 ◼   ► but I feel like

01:27:39 ◼   ► since we last spoke

01:27:41 ◼   ► about the changes,

01:27:43 ◼   ► the new tiered system,

01:27:44 ◼   ► that was like

01:27:45 ◼   ► the end of it.

01:27:46 ◼   ► There's been nothing else

01:27:47 ◼   ► and that is peculiar

01:27:49 ◼   ► to me,

01:27:50 ◼   ► but this will suffice

01:27:53 ◼   ► for the DMA

01:27:54 ◼   ► even though

01:27:54 ◼   ► we don't know

01:27:55 ◼   ► anything about it.

01:27:56 ◼   ► So,

01:27:57 ◼   ► congrats, everyone.

01:27:59 ◼   ► Mission accomplished.

01:27:59 ◼   ► Hooray.

01:28:01 ◼   ► And Jason,

01:28:01 ◼   ► it's happening again.

01:28:02 ◼   ► Britain's competition

01:28:04 ◼   ► and markets authority

01:28:05 ◼   ► has ruled that

01:28:06 ◼   ► Apple and Google

01:28:06 ◼   ► essentially have

01:28:07 ◼   ► monopoly power

01:28:08 ◼   ► over the app distribution

01:28:09 ◼   ► on their platforms

01:28:10 ◼   ► and is beginning

01:28:10 ◼   ► to make recommendations

01:28:11 ◼   ► and requirements.

01:28:12 ◼   ► Oh, boy.

01:28:13 ◼   ► The CMA,

01:28:14 ◼   ► they're doing this

01:28:15 ◼   ► kind of rolling this out slowly.

01:28:16 ◼   ► So, the CMA's

01:28:17 ◼   ► first things that they're saying

01:28:19 ◼   ► should occur

01:28:19 ◼   ► is they want app review

01:28:20 ◼   ► to be more fair,

01:28:21 ◼   ► objective, and transparent.

01:28:22 ◼   ► They want Apple

01:28:24 ◼   ► to do a better job

01:28:26 ◼   ► of explaining delays

01:28:27 ◼   ► in review

01:28:27 ◼   ► and maybe allow

01:28:28 ◼   ► for a dialogue

01:28:29 ◼   ► to occur.

01:28:31 ◼   ► between developers

01:28:32 ◼   ► and Apple.

01:28:33 ◼   ► Additionally,

01:28:34 ◼   ► they would like

01:28:36 ◼   ► some kind of explanation

01:28:38 ◼   ► or something

01:28:38 ◼   ► to be published

01:28:39 ◼   ► like a methodology

01:28:40 ◼   ► for how app store

01:28:41 ◼   ► search ranking

01:28:41 ◼   ► is worked out.

01:28:43 ◼   ► The CMA

01:28:45 ◼   ► is also going

01:28:45 ◼   ► to further investigate

01:28:47 ◼   ► app store steering

01:28:48 ◼   ► and whether

01:28:49 ◼   ► alternate app stores

01:28:51 ◼   ► and or payment

01:28:51 ◼   ► processing

01:28:52 ◼   ► would be required

01:28:54 ◼   ► in the UK

01:28:54 ◼   ► and that is

01:28:55 ◼   ► expected next year.

01:28:58 ◼   ► Apple

01:28:58 ◼   ► have said

01:28:59 ◼   ► all of the things

01:28:59 ◼   ► that you'd expect

01:29:00 ◼   ► them to say

01:29:00 ◼   ► about protecting

01:29:01 ◼   ► the privacy

01:29:01 ◼   ► of users

01:29:02 ◼   ► in the UK

01:29:02 ◼   ► with this new

01:29:04 ◼   ► quote that I wanted

01:29:05 ◼   ► to read

01:29:05 ◼   ► and force us

01:29:07 ◼   ► to give away

01:29:08 ◼   ► our technology

01:29:09 ◼   ► for free

01:29:09 ◼   ► to foreign

01:29:10 ◼   ► competitors.

01:29:11 ◼   ► just chill out

01:29:14 ◼   ► a little bit.

01:29:14 ◼   ► All right?

01:29:15 ◼   ► Like we're not

01:29:16 ◼   ► at war here.

01:29:16 ◼   ► I don't remember

01:29:18 ◼   ► them saying that

01:29:19 ◼   ► about the EU

01:29:20 ◼   ► but they probably

01:29:21 ◼   ► did but I'm just

01:29:21 ◼   ► maybe a little bit

01:29:22 ◼   ► saltier about it

01:29:23 ◼   ► because they're

01:29:23 ◼   ► throwing that

01:29:24 ◼   ► towards my

01:29:25 ◼   ► great nation.

01:29:25 ◼   ► so it's happening.

01:29:28 ◼   ► Britain is like

01:29:30 ◼   ► hey we'll have

01:29:30 ◼   ► some of that

01:29:31 ◼   ► and as you've

01:29:32 ◼   ► said many times

01:29:33 ◼   ► on this show

01:29:33 ◼   ► during this segment

01:29:34 ◼   ► the problem for

01:29:36 ◼   ► Apple is

01:29:37 ◼   ► all of the

01:29:39 ◼   ► subsequent things

01:29:39 ◼   ► that occur

01:29:40 ◼   ► if the CMA

01:29:41 ◼   ► decides that they

01:29:42 ◼   ► want alternate

01:29:43 ◼   ► app stores

01:29:43 ◼   ► and payment

01:29:44 ◼   ► processes

01:29:44 ◼   ► they just point

01:29:46 ◼   ► to the EU

01:29:46 ◼   ► and say

01:29:47 ◼   ► just do it

01:29:47 ◼   ► like that.

01:29:48 ◼   ► We know you

01:29:49 ◼   ► can do it.

01:29:49 ◼   ► You don't need

01:29:50 ◼   ► to argue with us.

01:29:51 ◼   ► You can't argue

01:29:51 ◼   ► with us.

01:29:52 ◼   ► We know you

01:29:52 ◼   ► can do it.

01:29:53 ◼   ► We want you

01:29:54 ◼   ► to do it like

01:29:54 ◼   ► that.

01:29:55 ◼   ► it becomes

01:29:56 ◼   ► much harder

01:29:57 ◼   ► for Apple

01:29:57 ◼   ► to make

01:29:58 ◼   ► any kind

01:29:58 ◼   ► of argument

01:29:59 ◼   ► about what

01:29:59 ◼   ► they can

01:29:59 ◼   ► and can't

01:30:00 ◼   ► do

01:30:00 ◼   ► when they've

01:30:01 ◼   ► already done

01:30:02 ◼   ► it somewhere.

01:30:02 ◼   ► So it just

01:30:04 ◼   ► essentially at that

01:30:05 ◼   ► point becomes a

01:30:05 ◼   ► we'll have some

01:30:06 ◼   ► of that.

01:30:07 ◼   ► So we'll see

01:30:07 ◼   ► what happens.

01:30:08 ◼   ► This episode

01:30:11 ◼   ► is brought to you