The Accidental Tech Podcast

11: A Particularly Exuberant Adolescence

 

  every tweet everything and then let's get going to nobody gets boring leads I [TS]

  think we lost that battle so what we're talking about this week so what we [TS]

  talked about well this was a big week and first and foremost wbez tickets [TS]

  happened they did that was interesting [TS]

  nothing like we predict that all wrong is right I know about but I remember [TS]

  what I said what I said last time I think I said no we're gonna taken I did [TS]

  so I was right when I just lights I saw it going very differently in my head I [TS]

  mean I knew it would be quick but I think I saw someone who kind of someone [TS]

  who had the source that cannot be named that said it was 71 seconds [TS]

  yeah like somebody gets had dinner with somebody who would know and and they [TS]

  said it was something like that yeah that seems reasonable to me based on [TS]

  what I saw that that seems right and that's just that's insane so my question [TS]

  to questions really to you guys are two part question is one as but has has been [TS]

  talked about in our little circle of life [TS]

  ad nauseam is the sustainable and to give a crap anyway that's I don't like [TS]

  that whole line of reasoning doesn't make any sense to me if people are angry [TS]

  about how things went they decide that it has to be some kind of neglect or [TS]

  malicious neglect on the part of the personified entity that is this company [TS]

  that somehow they don't care they care I think it's almost everyone who has a [TS]

  blog and likes Apple stuff in the last week has written something about the BBC [TS]

  and ideas on you know how it could be fixed whether it needs to be fixed or [TS]

  you know what this means and in the universe and you know my position is [TS]

  basically that basically agreeing with Johnny and you know junior this great [TS]

  thing about the lottery how you know it basically is it has become a de facto [TS]

  lottery even though it technically isn't one [TS]

  because even if you were there in the very first minute it was pretty random [TS]

  whether or not you gotta take it because there are so many server errors and [TS]

  everybody everybody slammed the server even from the very first few seconds so [TS]

  you know it is a lottery now and this is kinda isn't isn't that the same way that [TS]

  Google i/o goes generally where there is something we're going to take it but it [TS]

  goes fast yeah I think it's I think it's similar in that like you know it's it's [TS]

  basically randomly whoever gets the first five thousand database connections [TS]

  get it or something like that there's no point in that because if there's nothing [TS]

  you can do to increase your odds than it does lottery I mean you could say like [TS]

  there's something you can do to make sure that you have non-zero odds but you [TS]

  can't do anything to increase them because it's just the luck of the draw [TS]

  what I'll hit on the database you happen to get when when you're CDN refreshes to [TS]

  have the new contest like it there is really nothing you can do is decide [TS]

  dander and entering means basically being paranoid for months and then being [TS]

  relieved when you find out it's going to be pre-announced and then sitting there [TS]

  in your computer with hopefully a synchronized clock and reloading the [TS]

  page a bazillion times that all that annoying effort is essentially you [TS]

  putting your little take it into the box and everything that happens after that [TS]

  is out of your control so it's it's a lottery it into the worlds most annoying [TS]

  lottery because it was a regular lottery that is said three months ahead of time [TS]

  put your name in this box if you interested in WC then you'd like I did [TS]

  that and then there'd be no more likely be wondering if you got it but you [TS]

  wouldn't have to be sleeping with your phone next to you on loud for months at [TS]

  a time and signing up for learning services and saying their computer [TS]

  reload like none of that would be required at all just pointless dress for [TS]

  the people involved right so I mean at that point why not just make it an [TS]

  honest-to-goodness regular lottery we're used to say hey for this week will sign [TS]

  for this day we're gonna sign you up and then two days later we'll draw out of a [TS]

  hat and I mean I don't know it just it seems like it seems like what we've got [TS]

  isn't right and maybe that's just because all of the people who didn't get [TS]

  to take it [TS]

  have launched onto the internet like Marco said and complained about it but [TS]

  it just doesn't feel right to me and in one thing I read was dan Provost who is [TS]

  co-founder studio need to make like a cosmonaut neglect and other cool things [TS]

  like that he had an interesting post which has put the chat about how you [TS]

  could do kind of a half lottery have merit system this is this I believe he'd [TS]

  he'd based on your post John where he had said how about you the details cuz I [TS]

  read it a few days ago but he said something like hey 44 some marathon [TS]

  meeting in New York Marathon you get preference based on seniority sympathy [TS]

  the elite legwork for charity and so he said hey what if we do that from WTC [TS]

  where you know and his examples where seniority if you attended the past 10 W [TS]

  deed WWDC is then you'll more than likely get a ticket or maybe maybe not [TS]

  guaranteed to get a ticket or sympathy if you lose the lottery for three [TS]

  consecutive years well womp womp will give you a ticket or delete her leg [TS]

  worth charity you know there's many ways in which you could say hey you apply if [TS]

  you're one of the hundred or thousand people that apply to these categories [TS]

  will give you a ticket but everyone else your gonna regular lottery tough [TS]

  nobody's and I don't know that that's right but I thought it was a very [TS]

  interesting kind of halfway to do it because a lot of problems with that [TS]

  person is not that it increases your odds if you fill those things like it [TS]

  was the group into guaranteed a non-guaranteed guaranteed to be able to [TS]

  got tickets a non-guaranteed role play a lottery right the problem with not the [TS]

  specifics of that but for the problem with having any type of things that [TS]

  human beings can do to guarantee a ticket is that all you're doing is [TS]

  shoving your show him the race into another realm and just you know twenty [TS]

  thousand people would do everything it takes to be guaranteed and then it would [TS]

  be like ok well to be guaranteed you have to climb Mount Everest and save a [TS]

  child from a burning building and you're just getting you know like I have no [TS]

  doubt that all those people who are sitting there hitting reload would do [TS]

  the things required to be guaranteed and it if you if you oversubscribed the [TS]

  quote-unquote guaranteed pulling you back to the same stupid problem that [TS]

  that's the problem I see is like you know the the marathon I guess [TS]

  helps a little bit because inherently difficult thing to do so some of the [TS]

  guarantee is it like to run a whole bunch of marathons and that's [TS]

  maybe that was the actual requirements began diva WBC taking over the run three [TS]

  marathons in here [TS]

  certified like it's not going to make any sense if if the things I tried to [TS]

  imagine what those things could possibly be I think the punishment as well like [TS]

  what could the criteria before be getting guaranteed ticket if they're [TS]

  physically possible people do them because there's not much to me and I [TS]

  think well I think you know it's it's worth asking you know we like a lot of [TS]

  these a lot of these systems to try to prioritize people are give certain [TS]

  people an easier time getting tickets [TS]

  a lot of them have assumed that like loyalty is one of the big factors that [TS]

  matters like if you've got the seniority X past ones and you go into ticket now [TS]

  whatever it is that kind of counter to the BBC and and what it's for in Apple's [TS]

  mind I mean like Apple loves having a very high percentage of first timers [TS]

  there is that really shows they're bringing new people into the ecosystem [TS]

  their training new people you know there is some repetition between consecutive [TS]

  years of the reduc- and so you know a lot of people even before this crazy [TS]

  sell out a lot of people who I rear who I am friends with for saying that they [TS]

  only buy ticket like every other year because the repetition just isn't this [TS]

  doesn't make it worth for them and travels perspective they want as many [TS]

  people as possible to have experienced WBC so that they become better [TS]

  developers and become more you know I guess more loyal or or more likely to do [TS]

  things Apple's preferred ways so Apple really doesn't want a bunch of repeat [TS]

  visitors and so it's been you know we've we've had all the all the years up till [TS]

  now or you know not including this year the previous use up till up to last year [TS]

  if you really cared a whole lot about getting a ticket you could get one every [TS]

  single year and that's why you have people who have been there for ten years [TS]

  or more in a row but now you know maybe that's over maybe that's over now [TS]

  like maybe maybe the idea and I would say probably definitely it's over now [TS]

  that the idea that if you just really wanna take it very badly that you pretty [TS]

  much get one that's over and it's probably never coming back [TS]

  and you know maybe that's a problem Apple doesn't want to solve those [TS]

  conditions even if there weren't enough like like I said they would be there be [TS]

  enough people willing to do whatever it takes to be guaranteed you back to the [TS]

  same problem that's not true assume that you really you really did come up with [TS]

  some kind of criteria that would not be oversubscribed then it's a question of [TS]

  what what do you pick what what conditions do you set for the people to [TS]

  be there and like you said it's not at all clear like if you ask if you ask [TS]

  each individual possible ten day they'll have like I think it should be people [TS]

  who have been loyal and have been there many years or whatever cuz they should [TS]

  be aware of his loyalty and an apple might say but we want fresh blood of his [TS]

  own people who haven't seen these things before and you know there's a whole [TS]

  bunch of different constituencies who want different things about out of the [TS]

  attendees sin' ultimately Apple would be the one to set these rules and I'm [TS]

  pretty sure the rules that they would pick would not make the people who are [TS]

  complaining about not getting tickets happy because those are mostly you know [TS]

  the people who have been there year after year and and you know Apple would [TS]

  be ruining their there you know old boys club or whatever just like we see the [TS]

  same people every single year I think it's a moot point though because I think [TS]

  there are no conditions that could possibly set that would not be [TS]

  oversubscribed the only the only way out of this I can see for the people who [TS]

  want to see all their friends at the same time every year in san Francisco is [TS]

  what kind of been happening with the alternative conference taking place [TS]

  alongside WNBC so everybody go out there obviously the the hotels can probably [TS]

  hold everyone right so ever go out there what every week WBC is announced and [TS]

  attend whatever conference you want which may be W ABC or maybe something [TS]

  else and see all your friends at night and there's nothing Apple can't stop you [TS]

  from you and a bunch of people you know all going to the same city for the same [TS]

  week and hang out at night going to bars you can still have that part of you just [TS]

  can't have the part where you're all the same conference call if there's 20,000 [TS]

  of you and it only holds five thousand [TS]

  I think market you to some interesting point a minute ago which is WDC kind of [TS]

  how is to head in the sense that I mean part of it is evangelizing the platform [TS]

  and by that I mean grabbing new people in in and encouraging people who are new [TS]

  to the platform and then part of it is just the general knowledge transfer of [TS]

  skiers best practices here's what's new and and it's hard to serve both of those [TS]

  audiences well in general doubly so when you only have what is it like 5000 5500 [TS]

  tickets and so I just I don't know I don't know where they can go from here [TS]

  but I think making WWDC bigger is probably not the answer and I think like [TS]

  jon said i mean maybe it's just that the alternative things take over i mean I [TS]

  know the three of us were pretty much bent on being there no matter wat and [TS]

  that's what's happening we're all gonna be there so I know it's just it's hard I [TS]

  know where to go from here [TS]

  that's a really good question I don't know either i mean i i don't you know a [TS]

  lot all the suggestions of scaling up the conference and adding capacity you [TS]

  know renting out the other moscow news and everything all the suggestions that [TS]

  they would ruin it and you know I think there's gonna be a whole lot of people [TS]

  who you know just go out there and and tried to alternative conferences [TS]

  themselves and everything but I I don't really see that no I mean I guess I [TS]

  guess we'll see this year but I don't really see that catching on I don't know [TS]

  how it could catch on I just i don't i don't think it's gonna reach critical [TS]

  mass I don't I don't think enough people out there with us and so I don't know [TS]

  but we'll see I think I mean I don't there's no solution to make WC what it [TS]

  was before but there is i think a solution to the overarching problem [TS]

  which is like how do you solve the demand for WBC aside from the obvious [TS]

  raising ticket prices a lot of which will make anybody happy birthday with [TS]

  somebody knows the ticket plenty of time to get tickets now is that Apple need to [TS]

  communicate more with the developer community throughout the year in some [TS]

  way of it at least approximates the fashion that they communicated W ABC [TS]

  because what happens W W C's you have a chance to do [TS]

  in person obviously they can only seem like that Allah Tech Talks help informal [TS]

  direct human communication on corporate communication not communicating through [TS]

  official channels in written form with DTS not burning one of your support [TS]

  tickets not talking to the App Review Board not communicating through button [TS]

  presses in iTunes Connect you all these other ways the developers have to like [TS]

  screaming to the void throw their bugs into the black hole that is radar web [TS]

  and the whole nine yards [TS]

  Apple developers crave like human contact and if Apple can give [TS]

  communicate more like with human beings during the year in a way that satisfy [TS]

  some of that bitch like so you've got some thorny technical problem let there [TS]

  be some chance in hell that you're going to be able to get the type of support [TS]

  you can get in WC lab talk to an actual human and informal way I mean I reckon [TS]

  slabs are formal too but just like that's the reason people are dying to go [TS]

  to WABC because at 11 15 mins change they have pace with the whole trip and [TS]

  if Apple was not so you have to be super duper like engage with the community and [TS]

  be something that they're not they can still be applet they've they're too far [TS]

  in the other direction of being we don't talk to you at all for WEC and that's [TS]

  your one chance to come in contact with the insides of apple and that's why [TS]

  everyone needs to be there and wants to be there we've got you know if they were [TS]

  just a little bit more open as a company and their communications but developers [TS]

  a little bit less rigid I think of that the only thing you can do to tamp down [TS]

  the incredible demand for WWDC yeah it's tough because it's a yes I do you like [TS]

  you said stay a state-appointed a secretive without a bug but while doing [TS]

  something more than to be with you see in the other tech stocks go this year I [TS]

  didn't go to any last year you guys did neither did you I couldn't have been [TS]

  detected before and they really are useful first of all have a couple things [TS]

  over WC one [TS]

  they're more likely to be close to you wherever you happen to live because they [TS]

  have them they come to you more or less I mean you know it's closer than San [TS]

  Francisco you know what we have done different continents them in different [TS]

  coasts and two is the one I went to was free for registered developers whole [TS]

  thing is that still the case it was free for like if you pay the $500 Select [TS]

  program or whatever I don't know if the end of free but I assume they're not [TS]

  $1,600 but they were really like a miniature WABC and you've got to talk to [TS]

  a smaller subset of the people but it was usually like you know they will have [TS]

  the head of graphics and imaging instead of the head of graphics imaging plus [TS]

  five engineering graphics and imaging so you don't get to talk to the bigwig [TS]

  maybe not the other people may be one of those people who is the person who [TS]

  implemented the particular AP idea dealing with no well but it's better [TS]

  than nothing I went to one two or three years ago when they had three years ago [TS]

  the Kings New York and late last night I couldn't get in because to fast but and [TS]

  now people are setting up alert systems for the tech talk of various but I went [TS]

  to the one in New York like three years ago and it was really good and it was it [TS]

  was exactly like a legal one day [TS]

  WBC light and it was free and there were a few hundred people there and it was it [TS]

  was really really good but they mean that doing those Tech Talks is a huge [TS]

  drain on their evangelism team on the engineers who have to go with them and [TS]

  if we could tell at last year's one it was just the evangelism team that did [TS]

  the majority of it was just tons and tons and tons of work and burn them out [TS]

  like crazy and so I don't really see Apple doing those much more frequently [TS]

  maybe they'll do it every year downside of just every few years but even that [TS]

  doesn't really solve the problem that they're on they're going around two [TS]

  smaller places doing this mark conference for less time serving a few [TS]

  hundred people in each place i mean it doesn't really there was a problem I [TS]

  feel like it also ties up disproportionately ties up a small group [TS]

  above important people at Applebees the crew that does the TAC talks is like the [TS]

  like the developer evangelism team plus some key people from you know who do the [TS]

  presentations for each section of like it's unfair to lean on that group and [TS]

  have them toward the world like that because frankly their job like if you [TS]

  really want to scale that up you're taking these important people and making [TS]

  them not be able to do with your other job because their spending you know [TS]

  weeks or months out of the year traveling the world and giving [TS]

  presentations like I think this was in those three see lottery argyll [TS]

  think you have to you have to scale the organization you have to decide that one [TS]

  of the important things that leads to do is communicate with developers and [TS]

  previously we accomplished that goal by really dedicated the company to this one [TS]

  week conference and I was getting the job done now it's not anymore because [TS]

  it's just too many developers so we need to adjust our organization to have more [TS]

  people dedicated to just education in evangelism and more people who part of [TS]

  their time is dedicated to that which just means basically any more people [TS]

  bottom line like and if you decide that's important to the company you can [TS]

  hire for it you can hire people who want to just be like evangelists and [TS]

  technical you know face of the company type people who are also could be [TS]

  programs we don't want to be hired people who are ok with spending a week [TS]

  or two weeks out of the year during this part of you know during WBC title type [TS]

  activities and the rest of the year as a developer and then stop the people who [TS]

  are basically developers all year except for the one WWC week like you just if [TS]

  it's important to the company had to step forward and it seems like what [TS]

  they've been doing now is take the engineering or do they should we have [TS]

  that we need to make our products and one week out of the year [TS]

  shut them off and send them to San Francisco and that that doesn't does not [TS]

  enough for the developer community they have now they need more but you know my [TS]

  position and and my blog post basically talking W my position was was more that [TS]

  you you you can do all these things you can address the demand you can you can [TS]

  try to you know add more developer relations throughout the year add more [TS]

  developer resources more videos more interaction etc but if this is the one [TS]

  big one if this is like [TS]

  the king of the Apple Developer events for the whole year and every year it [TS]

  happens and it's a huge event and tons of people go and Apple starts it by [TS]

  judging everyone by announcing a new version of iOS and showing it off you [TS]

  know it's still gonna be the big one and that's still gonna be where people are [TS]

  going to want to go at it like everyone picks if they can only go to one Apple [TS]

  conference year they'll try to go to that one so I don't really think that [TS]

  any of these efforts are going to necessarily address that problem they [TS]

  will address other part of this why do you think they want to go to that one [TS]

  thing here and like what are they getting out of it they need to be in San [TS]

  Francisco that week because if it's just the same other people than that could be [TS]

  solved by just everyone go in there and doing whatever you know but it's the new [TS]

  shiny thing I get to be there in person for new shiny thing that's that's a [TS]

  separate issue is like a lot of people saying oh I think you know that they [TS]

  wouldn't have such a demand for temporary see if they just like [TS]

  separated the keynote or whatever in my impression is that possible [TS]

  everyone who is the WC does not get to see the keynote in person I'm not sure [TS]

  how many people who don't attend the conference know this but this is not a [TS]

  room in that room like a remote 2000 presidio when they think it's more like [TS]

  three or four rapid this fight is 5500 people there at least right now so not [TS]

  everyone fits in that room right so just because you get a ticket doesn't mean [TS]

  you're guaranteed to go in there and second like presses a portion of that [TS]

  and they get press passes to go just as the keynote they don't get to go to the [TS]

  rest of the conference it seems to me that like I know that's kind of a draw [TS]

  and that's the most publicly visible thing but there's a whole week long [TS]

  conference filled with people and the press people who are you I don't know [TS]

  what percentage of the Express maybe two percent 3% I don't know what percentage [TS]

  is but those people are not there for the rest of the week they're gone [TS]

  they're offering stories they're interviewing developers doing whatever [TS]

  people want to go to the BBC because it's a weeklong conference and then go [TS]

  to the sessions or at least they go to some of them are they go to the labs [TS]

  they do something if you took away the keynote entirely just this is just a [TS]

  developer thing you would scare away the press will you be there but they're not [TS]

  the ones buying up all the week-long tickets anyway I i feel like if you [TS]

  separate that there are announced [TS]

  who's who's spending $600 and a week in San Francisco just see something we [TS]

  could see live on video and that you know like you're not getting anything [TS]

  out of being nasty jobs gone you know how many celebrities system cookie stand [TS]

  on a stage announces things you can see it from anywhere you get the news in [TS]

  real time I don't think that's why Texas well developers want to go w you see [TS]

  there there certainly is a portion of that late there are there are people who [TS]

  you know they work for smaller blogs or sites and an apple press doesn't give [TS]

  them press passes because they don't care about them or they don't like them [TS]

  or whatever and they just usually try to buy tickets to I see a lot of people [TS]

  doing that but the problem is that might be a couple hundred people at most out [TS]

  of the six thousand people who get tickets so it's not it's not that big of [TS]

  a slice and then you know there are certainly people who people who buy [TS]

  tickets who aren't press and who aren't developers necessarily or who are [TS]

  full-time developers at least two kind of like they buy it because they just [TS]

  kinda wanna be there and I try to get the company to buy it because they just [TS]

  want to be there that's kinda cool but again I don't think that's a whole lot [TS]

  of people you know relative to this massive pool developers want to be there [TS]

  so you know these these little subsets are there people who like you know [TS]

  depends on how you define it may not may not deserve a ticket in my view wasting [TS]

  a ticket but you know anybody who's been there the last couple of years you know [TS]

  that even after keynote day all the sessions are still crammed full like all [TS]

  the popular sessions like it it's not that everyone just buy the tickets to [TS]

  the keynote and then leaves some people do but all the sessions are still packed [TS]

  full and you can't even get into some of them on me know Thursday still we know [TS]

  well into the week so it isn't there are people who do that but it's not a [TS]

  meaningful quality as an Apache I think [TS]

  attendance does taper off during the week but it's mostly because every [TS]

  person doesn't want to go to every session so how many of the people who [TS]

  clamor for everyday seat tickets are desperate to go into like the cortex [TS]

  session maybe not a lot of them and maybe that room isn't that full and [TS]

  maybe of hangovers and sleep in late in the whole nine yards right that's what [TS]

  gets distributed in a natural way the keynote is a big rush because anyone who [TS]

  wants to be a WBC is interesting to note that I'm saying here in there so maybe [TS]

  you'll wake up early on but some people don't even bother waiting on the [TS]

  quinoline like out to see the overflow room I does that's why I mentioned on a [TS]

  pass so that you could oversell it by a couple hundred to squeeze in a little a [TS]

  little tiny bit extra capacity because when I definitely didn't want to expand [TS]

  the conference to be much much bigger squeeze in one or two hundred more and I [TS]

  bet people who don't have tickets would love it if they expanded to just buy [TS]

  fifty hundred more people as long as they were 100 more so like what I really [TS]

  nobody right like i think is most developers I've never met anyone at the [TS]

  conference who was it was a lucky loser is only gone for the past two years in [TS]

  the past two years have been hectic and there's no one like you know I really [TS]

  into it but my boss said he would pay for me to go so i decided no there's no [TS]

  casual ticket buyers anymore and for the past two years out there because they [TS]

  sought to fast and if you were that casual you probably won't like I've [TS]

  never met anyone who was there who did not have a legitimate reason to be there [TS]

  to press or a developer yeah anything else in WDC I keep stumbling over the [TS]

  words I hate the 2009 now it just sounds so silly and I can't do those this [TS]

  trendy abbreviations like I still say guacamole and not Glock I just like like [TS]

  i dont sides waiters and waitresses you'd be surprised you'd be surprised [TS]

  any way way better than trendy abbreviations this episode is sponsored [TS]

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  watching the show so quick side note parent makes an unbelievable guacamole [TS]

  so she called me walk and I don't think I can't say that anymore I just feel [TS]

  dirty even saying that so market did you do anything interesting last week by any [TS]

  chance I announce something interesting I didn't you know the week before it [TS]

  really so how did you announce last week marker I announce that I saw in the [TS]

  paper [TS]

  whatcha gonna do that so i i discussed it at length for about an hour on Monday [TS]

  Benjamin's quit show on five by five so I don't want to go over too much here [TS]

  but you know the gist of it was that I was really getting tired of working on [TS]

  it and the work was going far beyond what I could do so the combination of [TS]

  those two things one was basically fatal and I just I couldn't do it anymore and [TS]

  so you know I was seeing for like a year [TS]

  that I was falling behind and no not you know it isn't really about the [TS]

  competition necessarily a lot of people have asked me that it's not really about [TS]

  the competition it's about Instapaper an amram mean by that is in the papers [TS]

  problems were self-inflicted you know might my problem with Instapaper were [TS]

  that I wasn't keeping up with my own features I wasn't maintaining my own [TS]

  features well enough and I wasn't able to move forward with my own ideas and so [TS]

  you know it doesn't it doesn't help that there were a lot of competition last [TS]

  couple years but that's not really why I wanted to get out of it and the main [TS]

  reason why I want to get out of it was because I couldn't keep up with it [TS]

  anymore myself and and you know a lot of people a lot of people might think that [TS]

  it's for podcasts or for the magazine or whatever else and it really really isn't [TS]

  that people always dramatically overestimate how much work the magazine [TS]

  is for me in reality the editor Glenn Fleishman does like 95% of the work for [TS]

  the magazine I work about half a day every two weeks on it it really isn't a [TS]

  huge time sink it isn't about that necessarily it isn't about competition [TS]

  from my time it's that even when I was motivated to spend two hundred percent [TS]

  of my time doing Instapaper that amount of effort is no longer enough to drive [TS]

  the service to to keep it even just simply maintained let alone moving [TS]

  anything forward in making any big updates and doing any kind of major [TS]

  upgrades and redesigns anything else so I think you know so what I wanted was a [TS]

  staff meeting with the staff but I've been doing this for five years and I'm a [TS]

  terrible manager so the combination of of a little bit of burnout little bit of [TS]

  one to try new things and knowing that I would be terrible managing a staff I [TS]

  realized that that was a terrible idea for me to hire people directly [TS]

  so much better idea was to sell the company to somebody who would staff it [TS]

  and who would keep it going and it took me awhile to figure out you know how I [TS]

  wanted to do that you wanted to sell too but you know as I wrote in the post like [TS]

  one night at like 1:30 a.m. I jumped out of bed I realized oh yeah I still [TS]

  debated works that would be perfect and yes so I had a bad email John Borthwick [TS]

  beta works as a high noon already and I went in there like the few days later [TS]

  and we talked about it we basically had to deal with in a week I think it was it [TS]

  was pretty quick so have you you haven't divorce yourself up in the words of the [TS]

  first divorce yourself of it [TS]

  well you're not going to entirely to begin with and you haven't how much have [TS]

  you really been able to let go so far [TS]

  well so you know financially I still own a stake in the company it's just a small [TS]

  stake now in its notice no imagery stake is no longer under percent how it is to [TS]

  be so now I saw in a small stake in the company and I'm still going to advise [TS]

  them kind of indefinitely you know whenever they have questions or if they [TS]

  want guidance on you know what I think they should do it with a certain thing [TS]

  or decision or feature I'm gonna be advising them indefinitely but my [TS]

  day-to-day role is going to be gone and that is in the process of being my grade [TS]

  right now you know yesterday when their passwords and usernames and everything [TS]

  and and we're you know we're doing doing all those transfers and changeovers this [TS]

  week basically so I expected but that at my my major stress and major [TS]

  responsibilities should be pretty much gone by next week and so that's great [TS]

  I'm very happy about that I already feel like I like much of the stress has been [TS]

  lifted because the end is in sight [TS]

  you know i've i have i've i've i've handed over the keys I have the deal is [TS]

  done everything signed no but nobody can go back on anything I can change my mind [TS]

  anymore and so it's effectively done never get executing it everything on [TS]

  paper is done [TS]

  and so that relieves a whole bunch of my stress and my guilt at you know I spent [TS]

  I spent most of last year not being able to keep up and have no idea how I would [TS]

  solve this problem and feeling very very guilty about it just like every time [TS]

  somebody would send me a Twitter message or an email saying how much of a dick I [TS]

  was being bye bye not updating the paper or how do I was being by ignoring their [TS]

  bug report or they're they're badly parsed site report they were right and [TS]

  that made me feel even more guilty so you know all that guilt and all that [TS]

  stress has now been lifted because I've solved the problem you know I like I [TS]

  have now established a path forward for Instapaper I have given it a staff in my [TS]

  crazy way and so I no longer have to bear all that guilt and all that weight [TS]

  all that stress of maintaining and upgrading the service indefinitely [TS]

  myself with no help here on some are stressed cuz I have some more for you [TS]

  sure this is a question that I don't think than a thousand to the episode [TS]

  you're on how do you feel now about your prospects for you mention on on on quit [TS]

  that like people also overestimate what a big moneymaker the magazine is not [TS]

  that is not doing well or anything but just like you know it's it's not a [TS]

  completely replace replacement for Instapaper was the impression I got [TS]

  listening to you so the question is how do you feel your chances are now you're [TS]

  now you're sort of on the line to ok when's the paper has not gone but fading [TS]

  away right you have to make the next great thing that's going to be as big as [TS]

  in the paper was and are you have any fear that like that is going to be [TS]

  harder for you to do in 2013 than it was when the paper was was launched in 2004 [TS]

  or five or something [TS]

  870 I don't know when I was young back then and in any realm there was less [TS]

  competition there is now so now you are on the hook to come up with busy 71 do [TS]

  is write an iOS app you are now on the hook to come up with an iOS app that is [TS]

  going to be at least as successful as Instapaper do you feel any pressure [TS]

  about [TS]

  doing that so in summary do you have second album syndrome perhaps there is [TS]

  certainly pressure there no question but what I've also done since I'll auctions [TS]

  to paper was now I have a much better read blog before making good money from [TS]

  my blog I have a podcast with you guys and we're making good money from the [TS]

  podcast and sharing with us some of us are making good money and you see this [TS]

  crazy system I built by the way you talk about that so you know i i have other [TS]

  income now is what I'm saying and that helps a lot so rather than having one [TS]

  big thing I'm relying on to me it's way less stressful have a few smaller things [TS]

  and I'm diversify my income is diversified which for most people that [TS]

  is not the case again putting its most people have one job and I provide all [TS]

  their income and that's it and I've been there and it's very stressful for me I [TS]

  am very [TS]

  I always say you know financially I'm very risk-averse and I also don't like [TS]

  not being control of my own destiny and so whenever I have everything coming [TS]

  from one source that actually adds more stress so I have these diverse sources [TS]

  now and so I'm not constantly worried that whatever I do next [TS]

  won't live up to Instapaper because it doesn't need to have other income to pat [TS]

  it that being said you know the magazine is a special case because the magazine [TS]

  is not a regular at nobody buys the magazine because of the at a buyer for [TS]

  the content and the magazine also has you know crazy costs associated with [TS]

  running it because you're you're you're doing all this pain of authors and [TS]

  everything paying the editors and paying for picture isn't like there's there's [TS]

  constant on-going costs not like a nap we're like you know you can invest a [TS]

  couple of weeks worth of high cost and high time investment and then coast for [TS]

  a few months while it makes money you know the magazine I have to run [TS]

  constantly like there it sits on a fixed schedule of effort but its recurring [TS]

  revenue unlike the app [TS]

  that's true however you know and I thought at first when I was thinking i [TS]

  doing that I thought that would be a gold mine but turns out that the reason [TS]

  recurring revenues was there for new standard because it has to be because [TS]

  it's almost impossible to run some ideas without it because the costs are so high [TS]

  you know as i said i cant with software you can put effort in and then stop [TS]

  putting effort in or shift him putting minimal effort in 4-6 months and and no [TS]

  let-up profit build up and breaking all the cash back to your potential to view [TS]

  of the iOS App Store and that yeah you can do that if you have a really [TS]

  successful product to most people like they launched they get a little blip on [TS]

  launch day and it drops to zero and Beijing coast for six months ago I just [TS]

  put in all that time and no one wants to buy my appt you know well how well I did [TS]

  find though and with Instapaper over the years I did find that update frequency [TS]

  didn't really impact sales as much as you think I did a whole lot of apps out [TS]

  there that hardly ever dated or that that you know get the cat frequent but [TS]

  very very minor updates and so absurd that are making money doing very very [TS]

  well or at least moderately well without having tons of effort porn of them [TS]

  constantly it really depends on on the App Inventor markets and and I'm not [TS]

  saying you need to have updates every month although I recently saw people [TS]

  declaring that but is it dead application had been up there in two [TS]

  months but anyway my point is it that regardless of updates [TS]

  you're hoping that you know the only way you can coach for six months on sales if [TS]

  you have any sales after after three weeks after sales or 90 you know me like [TS]

  if you launch an app and goes out there in a couple people by who are interested [TS]

  in it and it just doesn't appeal to anyone else you know there's no more [TS]

  sales for you and doesn't matter what you do don't they may be built the wrong [TS]

  happened that's what I'm getting at with the pressure of like even if its [TS]

  financial pressures in terms of you know the idea that you're you're looking for [TS]

  something that people really gonna want to buy this not a hundred of already out [TS]

  there that's going to going to be something that you know you're gonna put [TS]

  a certain amount of effort [TS]

  hope that at the very least enough to buy to make the effort you put into it [TS]

  and we're hoping for is that you get much more than that but you're able to [TS]

  like you said you know put into maintenance mode get a bunch of sales [TS]

  maybe work on the next major version farther down the line like you know like [TS]

  I said Instapaper was a very very very successful product that a lot of people [TS]

  wanted that was unique at the time and even after you need people still want it [TS]

  because you did such a good job and everything like and now you know your I [TS]

  don't know if you maybe I'm feeling pressure for you I feel like you're on [TS]

  the hook to come up with a neck another hit a progressive the finances like [TS]

  maybe find you a free app and you never charged for now you wouldn't do that but [TS]

  like because you are associated with like you're associated with like one of [TS]

  the pillars of the iOS application world you know i mean and if the next come out [TS]

  with his nursing clock 2.0 in 10 people buy it it's gonna be disappointing yeah [TS]

  and you know I don't I don't know what to expect with whatever my next appt [TS]

  ends up being you know I have a two or three idea that I'm deciding between and [TS]

  ones leading the way is unpopular with that but I'm probably not even going to [TS]

  keep it secret for long but I don't know until I decide at least but you know I [TS]

  think I don't know what to expect in the market because Instapaper sales over the [TS]

  last few months have been pretty soft relative to past sales but I think [TS]

  that's because the app has been kind of an in disrepair I really haven't updated [TS]

  it in a long time you know my last official update I think was february [TS]

  something but the last meeting for update I think was December maybe it's [TS]

  it's been a while now but I don't know if it's been a while and you can even [TS]

  see I can get home as a during the handover I looked at my commit history [TS]

  and it's really sad but you know I think so you know my sales haven't been [TS]

  awesome last few months [TS]

  part of that though could be that apple has released a new iOS device unless few [TS]

  months you know every spring until now has had a new iPad and that always a [TS]

  boost in sales so it's hard to tell you know why sales were soft last couple [TS]

  months [TS]

  you know why they might not have been whatever it's very hard to tell with [TS]

  ayahuasca that's always been a rollercoaster but with the exception of [TS]

  last few months since paper sales were solid the entire rest of its history [TS]

  they were really solid and and so I have to wonder you know if I really something [TS]

  new will it will it do as well as Instapaper was doing in the last few [TS]

  months because the market so saturated or will it have some kind of massive [TS]

  explosion of income because all those people who are buying Instapaper over [TS]

  the years like they now have another appt taken by that like what I mean is [TS]

  like in paper never had a great revenue and so now I have all those you know all [TS]

  those people who I never got upgrade revenue from not that they would [TS]

  automatically by whenever I make some of the people but not not like not a crazy [TS]

  amount of Nursing clock but you know there's gonna be like I don't know how [TS]

  big the market really is first hand today if I start if I longshot something [TS]

  new today I don't know because you know I it's it's going to be hard to tell [TS]

  like until I actually just do it it's gonna be hard to tell how many people [TS]

  there are sitting around looking to buy new apps I've really only address them [TS]

  slowly over time as they've trickled in [TS]

  as they bought new devices and everything is a good example because [TS]

  that that is it's not entirely unrelated to Instapaper even though they're you [TS]

  know it's a news stand out and it's different business model and this is [TS]

  different but it's it's about it's addressing an audience of people are [TS]

  interested in reading things on their iOS devices and you know made by the [TS]

  same person with the similar static so that's going to know if you like [TS]

  Instapaper app I like the magazine and you know just in terms of the [TS]

  application typography know that stuff so that was kind of like a natural [TS]

  sibling application and it's time to think where you feel like you have if [TS]

  you have a built-in audience of like fans of your products and you go off and [TS]

  make you know again nursing clock like a random game or something maybe you know [TS]

  the audience that loved into the paper maybe they like games maybe they don't [TS]

  maybe they're lactating mother maybe they're not you know it's not but it's [TS]

  the magazine it's like you probably like reading stuff you know [TS]

  and here's another way for you to read even more stuff and you know that that [TS]

  works and you know that I think having a built-in audience helps but you also you [TS]

  have to like sort of know your audience a little bit I'm sure you wish list to [TS]

  get better like better information about the people who are buying your [TS]

  applications and how they found them in all the things you complain about so [TS]

  many times that you don't have about how people can see paper buyers come from [TS]

  how do they come to you and how satisfied are they and what aspects of [TS]

  Instapaper do they like and not like all these things that you wish you knew [TS]

  about your customers at all you see is just you know a number that hopefully [TS]

  makes a nice grafted goes up early stage level high level and like you know I [TS]

  don't like what the magazine is not a good indicator because as I said like [TS]

  people don't judge it based on it being a nap they judge its content because [TS]

  it's conceptually a magazine just like you know nobody really judges paper [TS]

  magazines based on the quality paper they're printed on what we don't sell [TS]

  the magazine app short because so many people myself included have rejected [TS]

  electronic versions of content of their otherwise find interesting because the [TS]

  applications are so awful and Dubai not mission office location like that's part [TS]

  of the Instapaper brand of like your whole thing was I can make that awful [TS]

  website that it's impossible to read nice and readable for you and the [TS]

  magazine is nice and readable and I think that is really a factor because I [TS]

  know their publications I read in paper that I refuse to use their I was out so [TS]

  he's a terrible and slow and buggy and wanna download seven hundred megabytes [TS]

  issues and all those disgusting things that are not an issue with the magazine [TS]

  yet but most people like you know the magazine app no matter how good I make [TS]

  it you're only going to be using it for you know maybe an hour every two weeks [TS]

  yeah it's mostly like a lack of a negative instead of like a big positive [TS]

  but I think that the lack of a negative is stand out because other people [TS]

  competing in this field such big negatives in that area right but you [TS]

  know it's it's I i'm saying is I don't think it represents the the the app [TS]

  market very well because people don't judge it as a nap [TS]

  the judge it as content and that's a very different business and I think to [TS]

  john's point it's both but but it's more about the content than it is about the [TS]

  app yes I mean if the app was a steaming turn nobody would buy it or maybe that's [TS]

  not true though cuz look at all the condé Nast apps and then I was going to [TS]

  say you know maybe your fans however you define that group B that one or 1000 r1 [TS]

  million maybe some of them would buy it but but presumably nobody else the [TS]

  built-in audience of the people who are interested you know from the paper world [TS]

  of whatever magazine they're they're feeling they're bad for you know himself [TS]

  like that's that's it's not fair to judge against that because they have [TS]

  people who are in our thoughts but the property to take the boat magazine [TS]

  energy cure whatever Rolling Stone that are now with any kind of like name [TS]

  brands before Iowa's existed and despite their terrible applications people come [TS]

  to that so content really is driving those things in there fighting their way [TS]

  through the applications but for me and for more tech-savvy people if I even if [TS]

  I like the content this is the limit to what I can tolerate from these [TS]

  applications before I say you know it's actually better for me just get a paper [TS]

  version I think it's probably fair to say that you might be a little bit more [TS]

  critical than the average person well there in the seven hundred megabytes [TS]

  things like a wired or whatever [TS]

  wire to the name brand existed before iOS the people want but there's a limit [TS]

  like you know people can't wait for that much stuff to download in their iOS [TS]

  devices fill up in my wife is probably newsstand magazines a newsstand issues a [TS]

  huge and she has a 32 gigabyte iOS devices and they fill up like a lie I [TS]

  know she knows you just have to go to Newsday and you cannot delete out all [TS]

  stuff and it's because these things are gigantic these magazines that should not [TS]

  be this big yeah but you know what the reason why they are that big is because [TS]

  in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter because in the grand scheme of [TS]

  things as you said she she's had these problems with these apps and as I'm sure [TS]

  I'm sure she experienced they're not that great to use the reading experience [TS]

  is not grade but she still stripes because they're not being judges app [TS]

  serbian just magazines but it's a lot of his carrier [TS]

  of the daily with the didn't have a pre-existing name-brand had an awful [TS]

  application that people didn't like and you can see all the daily content wasn't [TS]

  as good as the daily content not as good as you know people magazine it's [TS]

  probably about the same USA today or whatever just that people in USA today [TS]

  where names that existed before iOS Braley was not that means a lot but [TS]

  Marco Arment was a name before the the magazine and so I think to some degree I [TS]

  think you did trade on your name and that's not a bad thing I definitely [TS]

  should you know so I'm curious to see what whatever comes next [TS]

  assuming it's not nursing clock to how how that ends up I did have one other [TS]

  question for you [TS]

  out of curiosity maybe maybe you don't have a good answer for this but what is [TS]

  what has surprised you since the announcement other than the absolutely [TS]

  hysterical replies many of which he retweeted I was dying laughing all of [TS]

  whatever was Thursday Friday watching all of them but what has surprised you [TS]

  mean what was your first really good night sleep was it immediately after you [TS]

  open communication works was it as soon as you released both neither I think it [TS]

  was last night it was it was the other night that I got home from their office [TS]

  the first from visiting the first time after the sale closed and doing this [TS]

  whole transfer of a bunch of stuff but I don't know so so to answer your other [TS]

  question though it wasn't what surprised you right but I think overall I was [TS]

  expecting a bit more heat and it's not to say it like you know I didn't go into [TS]

  this knowing people would hate it or expecting you know everyone to hate it [TS]

  but I thought I would get I thought I would hear more from the [TS]

  the anti acquisition fans you know people who like they've had a puncture [TS]

  apps that the use be acquired in the past and shut down and they hate that [TS]

  and so they rage against any acquisition I think the only the only actual [TS]

  negative I read from anybody who I thought was remotely credible I think on [TS]

  that was Ben Brooks who complained he said he said he briefly considered [TS]

  switching to pin board when he first read my announcement because it was [TS]

  acquired by somebody but with the exception of Ben I don't really think [TS]

  certainly nobody nobody else who I would consider like you know a legitimate [TS]

  person whose opinion I wanna listen to none of them had a major problem with it [TS]

  and I don't know I mean I i think if you're if you're real you know if your [TS]

  devoted into paper user I think you could read my blog post and see you [TS]

  could see how I was saying I was having trouble keeping up with it for the last [TS]

  year and if your devoted user I think you read that and say yeah he's right [TS]

  because you would know you know you would have seen very few updates in the [TS]

  last year and you know very few very very little maintenance going on and and [TS]

  not a lot of movement the feature set you know any devoted user can see those [TS]

  shortcomings and so I was really expecting a lot more flak from that [TS]

  crowd and get it and I am very sad that I'm very happy about that really very [TS]

  pleasantly surprised that the response was ridiculously positive I think people [TS]

  are ok with it because I could see a plausible like this story put together [TS]

  i'm i'm saying is that these people and they're going to take it and run with it [TS]

  people look at it like yeah that makes sense because it wasn't it wasn't like [TS]

  you know when sparrows too I think sparrow now the time sometimes [TS]

  accompanied by another thing you know it's doomed because you can't imagine [TS]

  any reason they will keep it around [TS]

  and it just doesn't make any sense so would you selling your soul to it's like [TS]

  oh that's what they do they're not gonna shut it down they didn't get you like [TS]

  the only reason they would do this thing is that they want to have this project [TS]

  and later when they screw up the product by putting and banners on top of [TS]

  everything will blame them because it'll be like well when he saw that you know [TS]

  it was funny when he sold it and it was a it was a story that made sense surely [TS]

  they're going to keep this product and they're not going to me to be shot down [TS]

  so that your responsibilities gone once you've given it a good home and if the [TS]

  home turns out not to be so good year later we don't go back and say damn your [TS]

  market for selling and now we blame the new owners for mistreating us to be fair [TS]

  it's never wise for me to assume that people will read what I write before [TS]

  responding [TS]

  yeah people you care about going to read it people weren't angry and you know I [TS]

  wasn't angry I think about like you feeling guilty about not having features [TS]

  I know from doing enough tech support my family and everything that applications [TS]

  that don't change as long as they do what people want them to do actually [TS]

  kind of a comfort you know I'm trying to walk my sisters who the Google Reader [TS]

  shut down now and she she would just like it if the ancient version and is [TS]

  why she's using would continue to work for ever and ever you like the same way [TS]

  as it always did and you know it's a paper not change you for years you think [TS]

  it's the end of the world but people are using it so happy for years I like what [TS]

  was wrong against the paper I use it every day it's fine I read things on you [TS]

  know like I know you get the email but the text parser screen upward ever been [TS]

  that's a small fraction of the audience most of the people just using it happily [TS]

  and as far as they're concerned there's nothing wrong with they're not they're [TS]

  not cruising in the market for Rita later services every day [TS]

  comparing them weighing just using their their phone to their iPad happily with [TS]

  these applications you know i mean and mean I still use Instapaper every day [TS]

  and it's fine but but it could be so much better if you know that and that's [TS]

  that's very clear in the text parser could be so much better and they're [TS]

  they're just there so much about it I i think what what really told me that it [TS]

  was time was there were there was about a two week period where David Smith had [TS]

  convinced me to try to keep it and try to work on it and you know before [TS]

  deciding to sell it and I did and I started like one i sat down and I was [TS]

  all motivated and i sat down and started the big 5.0 branch and started tearing [TS]

  stuff out and started changing major things around and started laying the [TS]

  foundation for what I want to do in 5 10 and I wasn't motivated to to do it for [TS]

  more than about 20 minutes and that's what really told me like you know what I [TS]

  really don't want to do this anymore because I I looked at the giant mountain [TS]

  of work ahead of me to do even even just like a modest redesign and and you know [TS]

  a modest feature set edition and I didn't wanna do it I I would like for us [TS]

  up and it was like doing it was like being told when I was in middle school [TS]

  being told I had to sit down and do my homework I just did not want to do it [TS]

  and motivational I just had no steam list and that's that's when I knew that [TS]

  was probably back in January or so that they did that and that's when I knew I [TS]

  had to start to buy this thing and I also I had a great talk with Brent [TS]

  Simmons cause brandt said it a few times in the past he said on various podcast [TS]

  her side or somewhere he said you know 'cause people people always asked why he [TS]

  decided to sell net newswire and his usual answer or his theory was something [TS]

  on the lines of I know that once I no longer want to work on something I need [TS]

  to sell it and give it to somebody and then it's the best thing for everybody [TS]

  really it's the best thing for you because you can go on to some mouse and [TS]

  investing for your product your customers because they'll they'll then [TS]

  be in the hands of someone who actually wants to work on a thing and actually [TS]

  make it better so you know and and when Brent said that I don't know probably [TS]

  years ago it stuck with me [TS]

  and so actually called him too and I was thinking of what to do here and I've [TS]

  talked to him and he was very generous with his time and and yeah he basically [TS]

  kind of encouraged me to follow my instinct and you know he's like you know [TS]

  if you want to work on anymore don't work on it simple as that there's not a [TS]

  lot to really change that so that helped a lot so a combination of David Smith [TS]

  and Brent Simmons I really owe them thanks for helping me clarify what I [TS]

  want to do the right thing we want to do one more do you want to cut it down to [TS]

  one more but we got I was curious if you guys had any input my don't think we [TS]

  talked about this on the show any input into this this new or not near this [TS]

  anyway there's a rumor that that I was 7 I'll be flat and Jony ive has gone [TS]

  through like Godzilla and Latin New York and I was seven and I was curious if you [TS]

  guys had any insight not insider information insight into what you think [TS]

  that means whether you believe it [TS]

  etc like the most boring rumor ever because like it would be more exciting [TS]

  if I guess I'll be signing with screenshots for like a Sooners forestall [TS]

  was out like that you know the in-cabin the virtual ink had dried and the on [TS]

  these stories being written about it I'm going out the people weren't saying that [TS]

  means next version of iOS be flattened like I mean and this is just like as we [TS]

  creep up on the date the noise about that ramps up and now you start getting [TS]

  unnamed sources but we don't have any screenshots yet or whatever but [TS]

  everyone's been saying right it's like it's kind of like leading up to the iPad [TS]

  announcement really like where there's smoke there's fire so make you know I [TS]

  don't always get texts extreme as people might be picturing it but it makes [TS]

  perfect sense that things have gone very far in one direction and a change in [TS]

  leadership away from the guy who was reportedly in favor of that extreme [TS]

  directions obviously can result in [TS]

  things looking different so I'm just as well as I am I'm just waiting patiently [TS]

  this is fully what I expect but it's kind of like confirming things we are [TS]

  you thought I don't know I think I think it's more likely that well I think the [TS]

  reason they had to do this is because people are so we talk about the past [TS]

  people are so kind of complacent and and just so bored with smartphones and in [TS]

  particular with you know with iOS and Apple products in general that I think [TS]

  Apple needs to do stuff to shake things up a bit [TS]

  even know normally in the past we've always kind of stuck with you know it [TS]

  isn't broken don't fix it and Apple doesn't need to redesign things for sick [TS]

  of redesigning them but I think I think in this case this year I think they do [TS]

  because I always does it look kind of old you know I always sixth gave a minor [TS]

  refresh to some of the controls and everything but it still looks mostly the [TS]

  same way it did in 2007 and apples never had this the severe pessimism before [TS]

  it's never reach this level before so I think they do need to just say things up [TS]

  just just refresh things and different isn't necessarily going to be worse you [TS]

  know it chances are there if they're rethinking things at all if they're [TS]

  going into it saying we're gonna have a major change then it's probably gonna be [TS]

  better overall and so i i think this is why I think the the rumors of a being a [TS]

  very major visual change are very plausible and if they do it I think it [TS]

  will both be good and necessary there's two things reminds me of one is talking [TS]

  about the the surface tablet and windows Metro UI and one of things I said in [TS]

  that episode was [TS]

  that if you spend a long time staring at the Metro UI business was like a video [TS]

  that shows like the philosophy behind to be spent a long time staring that as I [TS]

  was watching this hour and a half long demo of this guy explain philosophy and [TS]

  then you go back and look at any iOS device the iOS device looks old looked [TS]

  weird like wood texture doing big things like an ass like that looks like the [TS]

  past and the future and the second thing I'm thinking about is if you look at the [TS]

  evolution of Mac OS 10 and its look which change many times [TS]

  frequently for fashion basic reasons from the incredible pinstripes and shiny [TS]

  blue buttons in the things like now you go back and look at the 10.1 screen [TS]

  China like oh my god how do we ever use that right to the snow evolution to [TS]

  remove the pinstripes not as much textures the buttons are are no longer a [TS]

  giant you know till capsules now they're a little bit flatter and flatter still [TS]

  now all the windows look the same number metal is gone [TS]

  Mac OS 10 has involved in it seems like every Apple OS and hopefully every [TS]

  application if we're lucky is forced now to go through this thing where you get [TS]

  like the band here we are aqua gel buttons pinstripes textures crazy things [TS]

  and then you just have to strike out to mellow with age [TS]

  you know and it seems like I always had a particularly exuberant adolescence [TS]

  we're a little green felt and wood and stuff like that but now is kind of like [TS]

  the leopard thing we're in love with a unified look at all the windows and [TS]

  covering a brush piles on remembering I think was ten five and you know it makes [TS]

  sense for it to be maturing in that direction but I think you know we're all [TS]

  in all this is the idea fashion and that is that is a real thing in change is not [TS]

  change for change tickets fashion because fashion changes and if it's [TS]

  staring at Metro and then looking back on my iOS device makes my iOS device [TS]

  bill heavy weight in gold and I look like a walk in the eighties the sign for [TS]

  the fashion to change so I think this is a completely natural evolution and I for [TS]

  one welcome our new flat overlords [TS]

  I have a couple of thoughts firstly the chat rooms going crazy with the [TS]

  exclamation point asked to suggest topics which is comical because there [TS]

  was somebody else put one in there there's no show but [TS]

  but I'm gonna probably get this all wrong because this is an accident on [TS]

  podcast and I didn't do any research but what was the the the hallmark feature of [TS]

  iOS four was was multitasking right and then hallmark feature of iOS 5 was [TS]

  notification centers are also right so what linda he's standing cloud in a club [TS]

  that's not a good one so what was what was the hallmark of six other maps [TS]

  passed there wasn't the kind of wasn't just one it was it was a combination of [TS]

  like you know more [TS]

  iCloud and you know better more and better iCloud tons of new API's for [TS]

  interface and stuff happens ya maps was like one of the big focuses yeah I guess [TS]

  it's like the biggest [TS]

  the hallmark user facing future I think was pretty much maps and passbook [TS]

  refinement on other things exactly so I'm driving and is are we somehow [TS]

  falling into a tech talk with iOS cuz I don't know that I would say that we had [TS]

  been up until maybe now but it sorta kinda seems like starting with iOS 5 [TS]

  which was really massive I was six I think there's a genuine genuine invalid [TS]

  argument that was big but maybe not massive and now we're talking the [TS]

  theoretically Iowa seven would be a pretty big massive change I guess [TS]

  visually if nothing else do you do you guys think we might be heading for a [TS]

  tick tock and iOS I don't know I mean I guess the big question is you know [TS]

  visually sure if they've received the whole thing that's going to be a lot of [TS]

  work to Mets gonna matter a lot of people and and maybe people will start [TS]

  thinking that's that's fresh again I guess the big question though is whether [TS]

  any of the other like horror defining limitations of iOS still exist like how [TS]

  how many how many things will we be able to do with iOS 7 we couldn't do before [TS]

  either as users or developers are both that is a big question and and six [TS]

  didn't really add a lot of those things for users it did a lot for developers [TS]

  before uses it was pretty minimal 7 I don't know it you know if they if they [TS]

  do something that for example that breaks down some walls between [TS]

  applications and has any kind of you know cross application contracts like [TS]

  system more intense like system you know that would be great and that would [TS]

  radically change how things can work but you know that's also a really big job [TS]

  and who knows if they've been able to pull that off in the time they've had [TS]

  you know we don't really know and who knows if they would want to do that you [TS]

  know keep might forestall has not been gone for very long and so they really do [TS]

  anything anything that forced always keeping their that we want to change [TS]

  probably hasn't had time to change for iOS 7 maybe Iowa State that might have [TS]

  time to change but for this it's [TS]

  I'm guessing seven is going to be mostly cosmetic update and then with you know [TS]

  some guys like it you can you can even look at past past versions like we just [TS]

  did you can say all right well the rate of change for major user facing features [TS]

  and major new API's does seem to be slowing down as a platform matures so [TS]

  there's not a whole lot of low-hanging fruit left like you know last year we [TS]

  got passbook because you know all the big stuff that was doable in that in [TS]

  that time so you start getting these these kind of lighter-weight features in [TS]

  Game Center and iOS 5 I think [TS]

  center for you know you start getting these kind of like [TS]

  lightweight fluffier features not like you know multitasking major [TS]

  architectural changes so I I don't know what to expect with seven but it [TS]

  wouldn't be that much of a disaster they didn't break down those walls and they [TS]

  just did a major visual refreshing a few minor tweaks I was thinking of like I [TS]

  was 7 you have to divide into two halves one-half is the features that were a [TS]

  plan to partially implemented before forestall is gone in the second half as [TS]

  anything that happened after he was gone [TS]

  and so like at least a good half of Iowa's salmon was gonna happen [TS]

  regardless of the change in leadership in the months the change in leadership [TS]

  happens there's only so much you can do in half the development time that you [TS]

  have you know I mean that's why they're booked into this pushing up against the [TS]

  line and one of the things he could presumably due in half the time is like [TS]

  a reskin type of thing but the one semi interesting thing I saw on these rumor [TS]

  articles was the idea that built-in applications that people use every day [TS]

  that come to define the iOS experience could potentially be rethought not in [TS]

  terms of looking feel but in terms of like to feature set and how they work [TS]

  kind of like the the podcasts revision that made it more normal but one of the [TS]

  one out by selling out excited about with something one of the articles [TS]

  vaguely mentioned the Mail app which is not exactly the same for the entire life [TS]

  mile west but it's certainly not flashy and stuff like that coming back on the [TS]

  table for four revisions for rethinking how that application could work because [TS]

  even though we we know that's not like you know it's just a nap right it comes [TS]

  with the USB define like when we think of OSB actually thinking the operating [TS]

  system like oh you know into application API's [TS]

  other people think of it they're like when i buy a new iPhone and it pushed a [TS]

  little thing that says mail what do I see always totally different they change [TS]

  the OS and that's that concept of an OS basically the stuff that comes on my [TS]

  phone is probably just as important if not more important than the actual stuff [TS]

  that just makes up the USA and in both rounds I think there's a tremendous [TS]

  amount that can be improved I mean you know we talked about the new application [TS]

  communication but like this the whole this the whole not sure natural [TS]

  evolution that I was going to climb as the hardware gets better like you know [TS]

  just in terms of the the adam emery killer and not being able to run [TS]

  background applications and like all these things that they're not coming [TS]

  down this year they're not coming down next year they're going to be around for [TS]

  a long time but we're slowly clawing away at them has the hardware starts [TS]

  getting you know eventually the hardware in our phones will be at the level of [TS]

  the hardware in our said 2008 Mac Pros right now it's not there now my Mac Pro [TS]

  16 gigs of ram [TS]

  my phone does not and you know but it will get there once we get there [TS]

  the adam emery killer becomes less important to note I mean and not being [TS]

  able to run in the background maybe becomes less important depending on how [TS]

  much better battery technology gets so there is a long slow painful road for [TS]

  the OS to climb as a natural evolution of it but in the meantime there's so [TS]

  many other things they can do to make the actual using of the phone better [TS]

  simply by revving bundled apps and doing server side stuff like any other you [TS]

  said oh it's not a big deal you know like maps Game Center stuff like that [TS]

  stuff that actually happening off of your phone and it's going to become [TS]

  increasingly important it will increasingly defined experience of using [TS]

  your phone's even it seemed like I was 7 has anything in it and it if there's [TS]

  some big massively important service ID feature like you can watch any TV shows [TS]

  for free for $2.99 a month paid out right [TS]

  pipe dream whatever and all they do is put like a video player on your phone [TS]

  like wow that's amazing but it all happened off of your phone is so that [TS]

  future of IRS 710 its feature of Apple's crazy content deals with you know the [TS]

  world of media and things happen on the surface but I think that's gonna [TS]

  increase with time the things that happened off of your phone and become [TS]

  just as important I think they are that they are just as important today just [TS]

  Apple has not done very well historically and being optimistic for [TS]

  two seconds its past I think something else to consider also is that we're now [TS]

  in a time you know a Steve Steve Jobs officially left the company and then [TS]

  died a few months later unfortunately but he has left the company what now two [TS]

  years ago roughly or you know one and a half somewhere that it's been it's been [TS]

  a couple years at any rate and from what we know from various reports that sounds [TS]

  like forestall really carried a lot of Steve's torches but a four star has been [TS]

  gone too far in a few months whatever they were holding onto like the the old [TS]

  Steve Jobs causes for all the good that Steve had for the company in for the [TS]

  products he also was holding certain things back [TS]

  and you know you can look at things like power user features and you know [TS]

  control issues you can steal you can see like you know a lot of what Steve [TS]

  championed and and and a lot of what he refused to compromise on was very very [TS]

  good and some of it wasn't and so we're seeing now like it's been long enough [TS]

  that the post Steve Apple is really starting to build its own personality [TS]

  separately from the Steve past and forestall being out i think is going to [TS]

  accelerate that in in a few ways because he was you know he had a lot of power [TS]

  and was very loyal to steven has ideas as far as we know so we might start [TS]

  seeing some of these walls in iOS fall more quickly than we hoped we speak [TS]

  rumors I'm sure all as read them that OS 10 point nine is it and we have to 10.9 [TS]

  already the next one to do it anyway you know OS 10.9 the rumor isn't going to [TS]

  have better power user features like more power features in the Finder and [TS]

  stuff like that just said taps a power user fees that's kind of weekend but if [TS]

  they do go that direction I i think thats worth paying attention to because [TS]

  so far Apple you know in in most of the previous releases especially with Lion I [TS]

  think it took a major step backwards for many powerful features more [TS]

  possibilities thereof but you know i i think it's worth looking at apple from [TS]

  the eye from the perspective of like what are they doing now [TS]

  look for look for signs of a potentially major course change in their products [TS]

  and and not not just one big one but look for little course changes I think [TS]

  the podcast app might be a microcosm of this you know you can see like they had [TS]

  this this crazy like extremely polarizing mostly bad design and the [TS]

  first version at his butt off from iTunes and then the new update kinda [TS]

  toned all that down and a lot of people said that was like you know forestall vs [TS]

  I've kind of thing but it doesn't seem not severe but it was like [TS]

  the the 1.0 of that Apple is very clearly a Steve Jobs style at whether he [TS]

  ever saw and I don't know probably not but that was very much a Steve Jobs [TS]

  style app and in the new one is a major course change from that and and you know [TS]

  now going towards better and so I wonder if you die I it's probably too soon to [TS]

  really see a whole lot of that so far and I S 70 S 10.9 but I but we're gonna [TS]

  see some of that I've ever gonna see hints of it and the beginnings of it and [TS]

  I'm really curious to see how it turns out I think you're onto something there [TS]

  I think we can start a new mean here in the new meme is Steve Jobs as the New [TS]

  Forest all because I was blaming like with everything you don't like it was [TS]

  forestalled now that he's gone it will be fixed right but if you extend that [TS]

  backwards Steve Jobs hey you know Steve Jobs is the one he was the one who was [TS]

  making them a lot be so simple for all these damn he finally he's gone and will [TS]

  have a joke there for like about the the podcast up and everything we you're [TS]

  right we don't know who is responsible for one everything we just can't look at [TS]

  Quinn several times but one thing we do know from years and years of talking [TS]

  head videos from johnnie ID is his design philosophy as expressed in those [TS]

  videos and we know two things one I think there really was his design [TS]

  philosophy because Steve Jobs he was Steve Jobs design guy and I don't think [TS]

  he was up there spouting something he didn't believe and his philosophy has [TS]

  always been the best thing has to be true to itself and whatever is whatever [TS]

  whatever essential element in this works much better hardware than software but [TS]

  whatever essential thing that's essential about this thing you know like [TS]

  the flower iMac with a base has to be true to being a basin hug the ground but [TS]

  the screen is thin and it should float in the air or that that shouldn't have [TS]

  extremists decoration or or bulges or other things that are not a part of the [TS]

  essential nature of the hardware product that is hardware philosophy expressed [TS]

  over and over and over again and embodied in all of his products if he [TS]

  applies that same philosophy to software would have but if he does you know the [TS]

  essential nature of a podcast application is not an enemy to take that [TS]

  you know like he's he's gonna I can imagine him thinking about what does it [TS]

  mean to listen to audio on an iPod [TS]

  not what does it mean to you know what kind of things in the past can be [TS]

  connected to an hour and that's the reason people think he's against your [TS]

  markers and all that other stuff because he wants to know you know forget about [TS]

  the past on this device on this thing what this thing is doing how it how is [TS]

  the software true to itself and we don't know that yet but I think we'll start to [TS]

  get a feel for me see what I was 7 looks like and hopefully even more so it's not [TS]

  so much what it looks like but if he tackles maybe not this version the next [TS]

  version some commonly used application whether it's a far your mail or some [TS]

  other thing on the phone or on the iPad for that matter and rethinks like what [TS]

  does it mean to browse web pages on a portable device and what is the [TS]

  essential nature of that activity and is it different than a toolbar on top and [TS]

  bottom number button that you click to you know like those type of things I [TS]

  like to see him rethink this will be really interesting to see how his [TS]

  hardware philosophy be transferred onto software do you expect much of it in the [TS]

  sense that as you just pointed out this isn't his normal cup of tea so do you [TS]

  expect that that'll be successful or do you do with your wager that it will be [TS]

  kinda ugly or a little rough at first I worry about the fact that at least half [TS]

  of iOS 7 happen before the switcheroo right so I worry about him trying to jam [TS]

  too much into the second half of I 17 development you know I don't know how [TS]

  much time he got in this but I know if this is not going to be like a [TS]

  top-to-bottom April be about if some he's still on board right so I worry [TS]

  that like you know doing too little to shipping iOS 7 has not changed much in [TS]

  ago john didn't make a difference and trying to do too much as like oh we got [TS]

  a risk in everything and everyone got to be ready to redesign all the built-in [TS]

  applications and then you know you don't have time through the polish it so [TS]

  and/or its all buggy as crap that as well so i i i worry about seven for [TS]

  those reasons but assuming there's not another change in leadership H&B where [TS]

  we really get to see [TS]

  you know it's all Jony ive at that point we don't have to worry about any [TS]

  leftover also forced or Steve Jobs is and who was that guy nobody like him [TS]

  anyway yeah and I think we're good [TS]

  all right thank you very much to our sponsors episode Squarespace to [TS]

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  54 10% off and they'll tell us not tell them that we sent to you and thanks guys [TS]

  please rate us on iTunes in the podcast review directory unless you don't like [TS]

  the show then you can skip that step if you'd like and I believe thats it now [TS]

  this show is over they didn't even mean to begin accidental John [TS]

  shown to be a team article [TS]

  got a bite in the chatroom was as its not see a morphism is a visual metaphor [TS]

  aspects of both I don't care to debate the definition of the people you know [TS]

  backlash like everything is right but then they think nothing is like leather [TS]

  stitching that's because you don't actually need stitches to hold the [TS]

  letter to anything because there's nothing pretty hopeful why would you [TS]

  draw stitches well because the real-life item to connect led to another piece of [TS]

  leather needed stitching to do it because you couldn't do it and you know [TS]

  that's cool morphisms element from earlier physical element that no longer [TS]

  has any purpose in here and you put it there anyway I don't know I don't agree [TS]

  with you because I don't want to hear from people about this I think I do [TS]

  agree with you but I don't I don't want to commit to that definition is looking [TS]

  up then and there are different things but they overlap alot they sell in [TS]

  wildly unrelated news I finally unloaded the Subaru's rat bastards can leave me [TS]

  alone now now you only have one white car gotta hit you so much I knew I was [TS]

  setting myself up for that [TS]