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578: The Woven Family of Materials

 

00:00:00   We'll see you next time.

00:00:30   I do think this might be the last episode in our summer.

00:00:35   Could be.

00:00:36   If there's an iPhone event in two weeks, we would do the draft.

00:00:39   On Monday.

00:00:40   Which would be the official end of summer.

00:00:43   Hard to believe.

00:00:44   I mean, 578 episodes.

00:00:46   You and I were talking, it's a bank holiday for you this week.

00:00:49   It's a holiday for me next week.

00:00:52   But Mondays is just sort of...

00:00:56   It's a great day.

00:00:56   This is what I do on Mondays.

00:00:57   This is how it goes.

00:00:59   This is how it works.

00:00:59   This is just how it goes.

00:01:01   Yeah, this is it.

00:01:02   This is what we do.

00:01:03   We chat together.

00:01:04   I have a Snell Talk question for you.

00:01:06   It comes from Matt, who says, inspire a Snell Talk here, which is true.

00:01:10   My friend Matt wrote into us and said, stop talking about the weather.

00:01:13   Why don't you do a little question to begin the show?

00:01:16   Matt is actually my paper friend.

00:01:18   It's a little foggy.

00:01:19   You know Matt.

00:01:20   You've met Matt.

00:01:20   Matt is the person that I work with for the paper products.

00:01:25   Yeah, paper Matt.

00:01:26   It supplies that.

00:01:27   Not a physical paper man.

00:01:29   Matt, who does paper.

00:01:29   I met Matt where?

00:01:32   Ool?

00:01:33   Yeah, that's where I met him the first time.

00:01:35   But he's at my wedding and stuff like that.

00:01:37   Yeah, I think so.

00:01:38   I think so.

00:01:39   That might have even been that Ool where we sat and chatted famously.

00:01:42   Probably.

00:01:43   Next to Hans Pater, who was talking to you about pens.

00:01:46   Do you remember that?

00:01:47   That was way back when.

00:01:48   That one was before we met Matt when it moved to the Europe Hotel.

00:01:52   Oh, when it moved to the next year then.

00:01:55   Yeah.

00:01:55   But I definitely, yes.

00:01:56   Anyway, so thank you.

00:01:57   It's foggy.

00:01:58   What I like is that Matt didn't want us to have small talk and create Snell Talk.

00:02:04   Yes.

00:02:05   And now we've small talked during his question.

00:02:08   Yes.

00:02:09   Which is, how do you become a friend of the show?

00:02:11   I feel like this used to be limited to previous guests, but the pool seems to have expanded.

00:02:17   First, let's just say it.

00:02:18   This is friend of the show, Matt.

00:02:21   This is friend of the show, Matt.

00:02:22   I actually think this is why Matt asked the question, if I'm being honest.

00:02:25   That's my expectation.

00:02:26   Yeah.

00:02:26   But yeah, it's friend of the show, Matt.

00:02:28   Yeah.

00:02:28   It's friend of the show.

00:02:29   Yep.

00:02:29   Well, so, first off, because you know there is, episode 252 of Robot or Not delves into

00:02:36   who's the friend of the show.

00:02:37   So you can check that out.

00:02:39   Do you want to hear John's definition of it?

00:02:42   I don't.

00:02:43   You know what, Jason?

00:02:44   I don't.

00:02:45   I absolutely don't want to hear John's definition of that.

00:02:49   Actually, I think my memory is that this is a reasonable one and that he and I agreed mostly

00:02:55   on it.

00:02:55   So friend of the show is a fun show business kind of way of describing to me people we know

00:03:06   actually in some way.

00:03:09   It could be applied to people who become sort of a character on the show in some way.

00:03:15   Yeah.

00:03:16   They've been a guest or they're a frequent letter writer who gets read on the air and they

00:03:21   become a character that way.

00:03:22   But I think it's also just a good shorthand for people we actually know outside of the context

00:03:29   of Upgrade because we know them in the real world.

00:03:32   You know, I've met Matt, you know, Matt.

00:03:35   I think this might have come up because of a friend of the show, Dr. Drang, and the kayaks

00:03:40   that we talked about.

00:03:41   But we both met Dr. Drang.

00:03:43   I've been on many podcasts with Dr. Drang over the years.

00:03:47   I think that's what does it is it's just more like a way to signify that this is not like

00:03:54   random Matt, but specific Matt, who we, who, as Steve Jobs would say, who y'all know, right?

00:04:03   Like Saul, who y'all know.

00:04:05   To me, friend of the show is an absolutely arbitrary moniker that I just bestow on people willy-nilly.

00:04:10   If I'm being honest.

00:04:13   I think if you, I think if you analyzed who you bestow it on, you would find that there

00:04:16   is an additional connection that is the thing that pushes it over into being friend of the

00:04:20   show.

00:04:21   I mean, it is helpful if I do know the person, as you mentioned, that, that, that is more

00:04:26   likely to bump it.

00:04:27   That's a good way.

00:04:28   Yeah.

00:04:28   But I feel like I'll give it, I'll give it to anyone, you know?

00:04:32   And, uh, and don't forget D Griffin Jones, who is enemy of the show, or at least, uh, neutral,

00:04:37   uh, frenemy of the show, something like that.

00:04:40   We can bestow that title too.

00:04:42   And there is also the official upgrade baby, Mackenzie.

00:04:45   Um, right.

00:04:47   Well, I mean, Mackenzie is friend of the show and Mackenzie's dad is friend of the show, but

00:04:51   also, also the upgrade baby.

00:04:53   The upgrade baby.

00:04:54   Which I really like.

00:04:55   Thank you to friend of the show, Matt, for sending in this question.

00:04:58   Oh, oh, did it come in on paper, by the way?

00:05:01   No, it came in via the feedback form.

00:05:02   What are you doing?

00:05:05   Which I appreciated.

00:05:06   I actually appreciated this.

00:05:07   Uh, if you would like to send in a question of your own to help us open a future episode

00:05:11   of the show, just go to upgradefeedback.com and send your feedback in.

00:05:15   I have some follow-up.

00:05:17   Dominic wrote in and said, the feature that Jason wanted and described in episode 577 to

00:05:24   talk about, uh, being able to delete apps, find out what apps I don't use and help me delete

00:05:29   them.

00:05:29   This exists, uh, since iOS 18, go to settings, general iPhone storage.

00:05:35   In addition to size, which was available in previous versions, the list shows the last

00:05:40   used date as a selecting a selection for sorting.

00:05:43   The list can be ordered by size name or last used date.

00:05:46   Uh, and then you can also swipe on the apps there and offload or delete them.

00:05:50   Yeah.

00:05:50   This is the part that I didn't know.

00:05:52   I knew that list was there, but, uh, if you swipe one direction, it offloads them in the

00:05:56   other direction.

00:05:57   It deletes them.

00:05:58   Yeah.

00:05:58   Which is really great.

00:05:59   Uh, I sorted by last used date and there were a bunch of very suspicious.

00:06:04   I, I'm not entirely sure that last used date is accurate.

00:06:08   In fact, it might be that I have some apps that predate the addition of that feature.

00:06:12   So the last used date is wrong for them.

00:06:15   Um, but, uh, this is good.

00:06:17   I, my other note here is that what I really want to be able to do is batch select a bunch

00:06:21   of them and having to, instead of having to go swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe,

00:06:24   swipe, I'd rather tap a bunch of them and then tap delete.

00:06:28   But, um, but this is better than any other approach I've seen.

00:06:32   So thank you, Dominic.

00:06:33   Yeah.

00:06:34   I also found it was odd that you couldn't sort it.

00:06:38   So you did the, the old ones were at the top, like you have to scroll all the way

00:06:42   down.

00:06:42   Yeah.

00:06:42   All the way to the bottom.

00:06:43   And there was some like some weird stuff in the bottom that didn't make any sense.

00:06:46   Like a collection of like four apps and like, oh, well, so one thing, one thing that's in

00:06:51   there in addition, and this is a bug is app bundles.

00:06:53   Um, so, so, so it's data, data shared by app bundles shows up in that list, even though

00:07:00   it's not an app.

00:07:01   So if you have like app bundles, well, the idea here, so, so the app, there is a feature

00:07:06   in the app store, uh, and in iOS that allows apps from the same developer to share,

00:07:12   share data outside of their own sandbox in a app bundle, share box.

00:07:17   So, uh, uh, sandbox, share box, whatever, you know what I mean?

00:07:22   Basically like Microsoft, this is how, if you've got Microsoft apps and you're a 365 subscriber

00:07:27   and you launch word and it says, Hmm, I need to see that you're a subscriber and you log

00:07:31   in and then you launch Excel.

00:07:33   It just launches.

00:07:33   How does it know?

00:07:35   And the answer is there's a shared sandbox for all of Microsoft products.

00:07:39   Uh, and it looks there and sees the authentication that word has written there and it knows it.

00:07:45   Now these should not display in this list.

00:07:49   They're not deletable from this list.

00:07:51   Oh, it's not deletable.

00:07:52   Cause it's like, I wonder what happens if you tried, like what happens?

00:07:55   No, they seem to be just kind of there as a weird vestigial organ of some sort.

00:08:01   Anyway, uh, that part's weird.

00:08:04   I love seeing things like this where it's like the, the richest company in the world,

00:08:09   you know, like, or one of also has these just weird edge cases based on a decision.

00:08:15   Cause it's based on the back of something else and they can't even get rid of, you know,

00:08:19   they can't fix it.

00:08:20   It's like, ah, what are we going to do?

00:08:22   You know, it's just there.

00:08:23   It is.

00:08:23   Uh, uh, uh, uh, Mihail on the discord says it's called app groups.

00:08:27   That is what it's called app groups.

00:08:29   It's not a bundles.

00:08:30   Those are slightly different.

00:08:31   Those are things you can buy together on the app store.

00:08:32   Sometimes bundles are in app groups, but it's app groups is what it's called.

00:08:36   And then, I mean, it's a good feature because if you're a developer and you're like, I need

00:08:41   my apps to talk to each other.

00:08:42   Apple was like, all right, okay, we'll give you a place that you can put stuff.

00:08:46   So anyway, yeah, that's, that's, uh, that's weird, but the rest of it is, uh, it's the

00:08:52   best yet I've found.

00:08:53   So settings, general iPhone storage, it is not just a list.

00:08:56   It is also going to give you the ability to rapidly delete or offload.

00:09:01   old apps.

00:09:02   Massimo is suing us customs over Apple's new workaround for blood oxygen sensor.

00:09:10   Sort of saw this coming, didn't we?

00:09:12   Yep.

00:09:13   I do think there's, there is something interesting in this.

00:09:15   So Massimo said they want the new ruling to be overturned.

00:09:19   And they say one of the reasons is because they only found out this was happening when

00:09:24   Apple announced it.

00:09:24   They did not have the chance to review or challenge it.

00:09:27   And I, and I do think that there's, that there's like, oh, you know what?

00:09:31   Like I don't necessarily disagree with this, right?

00:09:33   Like it's to get around what they are doing.

00:09:36   And then here's, I'm going to read a paragraph here from Jess Weatherbed at The Verge.

00:09:41   While no direct accusations were made, Massimo called out in the filing that Apple has made,

00:09:46   quote, a series of substantial investments in the United States after its appeal to overturn

00:09:51   the ITC ban were denied.

00:09:53   Massimo noted that the U.S. Customs then allowed Apple to reactivate the feature,

00:09:57   despite the company continuing to infringe on Massimo's patents,

00:10:00   and that whatever proceeding led to this new ruling departed substantially from Customs'

00:10:06   established practice regarding ruling requests.

00:10:08   The company's filing says, quote,

00:10:10   Customs' function is to enforce ITC exclusion orders, not to create loopholes that render them ineffective.

00:10:17   Well, I mean, it's not wrong that it's unusual.

00:10:23   It's not wrong that Apple is investing in the United States.

00:10:27   Is that why this happened?

00:10:30   I don't think there's any evidence either way, but certainly it's possible.

00:10:34   If I were an attorney filing for Massimo, would I mention it whether I had any evidence of it or not?

00:10:43   Of course I would.

00:10:44   It's great.

00:10:45   It's like perfect.

00:10:45   It's just sitting right there for you.

00:10:47   Unfortunately, if the state of the United States right now is, okay, so you go in front of a judge and say,

00:10:57   but judge, all the judges are against us.

00:10:59   The judge will be like, no, they're not.

00:11:01   Apple is great.

00:11:03   Get out of here.

00:11:04   And that could be it.

00:11:06   Like, you're asking for, they're basically saying the rule of law is not being followed.

00:11:10   Please, rule of law, save us.

00:11:12   And I'm not sure if it's going to save them because that's not the world we live in.

00:11:15   But we will see how it proceeds.

00:11:16   But this is what I would say.

00:11:19   Like, these accusations don't prove or deny anything.

00:11:22   They're the exact accusations you would make if you were Massimo.

00:11:26   Absolutely.

00:11:26   Which is like, is this favoritism?

00:11:28   Especially since we didn't even, I mean, that's rough.

00:11:30   We didn't even hear about this until Apple, until our opponent put out a press release about it.

00:11:37   Whew.

00:11:38   Ouch.

00:11:39   I mean, I think it's clear at this point that Massimo's kind of whole function at this point is just to enforce this patent, right?

00:11:46   Like, that seems to be, like, their biggest fish to fry.

00:11:50   And I get it, right?

00:11:51   Like, they do have the patent.

00:11:53   It does belong to them.

00:11:55   They would love to get money from Apple for every Apple Watch.

00:11:59   That's what they want, clearly, right?

00:12:01   And if Apple does this, they're not going to get it.

00:12:05   And I would feel a little aggrieved if it is true that the typical processes were not followed.

00:12:13   That would be a bit annoying.

00:12:14   If you're Massimo and you believe that you invented this technology properly patented and one of the biggest companies in the world just decided to ignore your patent, so you took them to court, I would be aggrieved.

00:12:23   And if I won, and then behind the scenes they did a thing, or you think they might have done a thing, and then suddenly they kind of lost, I'd be aggrieved very much so.

00:12:34   That said, if I were Massimo, I'd also be aggrieved if a judge or a patent official gave a narrow interpretation of our patent that allowed a workaround here.

00:12:46   And that's the thing is, I'm not a lawyer and I don't know all the details of this case, but is it not, I mean, okay, I'm not going to double negative this.

00:12:55   I think it's possible that the answer is, if you look at what Massimo patented, Apple's workaround gets around the details of the patent by not processing.

00:13:05   It's like Apple built a workaround.

00:13:07   And there could be a conspiracy here.

00:13:09   It's also possible that Apple and its lawyers looked at the patent and said, is there a way we could build something, not just, because before I think the argument was on or off, turn it on or off.

00:13:20   And they turned it off because they had to.

00:13:22   Is it possible that in the background they've been looking at it very carefully and saying, let's build a workaround and then just take it to the commission and say, we worked around this issue.

00:13:35   This new thing does not infringe on all these details here.

00:13:38   In fact, it does this totally different thing.

00:13:40   Is it reasonable that they might've done that as a strategy and that the patent people were like, actually, yes, there's no law against it.

00:13:49   That kind of thing where it's like, this actually does it.

00:13:51   I think it is possible.

00:13:53   And I think if I were Massimo, I'd be really mad and I would, I would, I would sue, but it doesn't mean they're in the right here.

00:14:00   We'll see.

00:14:02   We had previously spoken about the fact that the government of the United Kingdom wanted to put a backdoor into Apple's iCloud encryption.

00:14:11   The US government has announced that this will no longer be happening.

00:14:18   I will also quote from previous writer, friend of the show, Jess Weatherbed at The Verge.

00:14:23   While it's unclear if the UK would negotiate new terms of Apple that would avoid implicating the data of US citizens, an unnamed US official told the Financial Times that such negotiations would not be faithful to the new agreement.

00:14:36   So essentially, what it seems like is, while it's the US is kind of presenting it as like, the UK cannot get data of any US citizen, it kind of means the data cannot compel any US company to do this.

00:14:50   I'm happy that this has happened because the whole thing is absolutely ridiculous.

00:14:53   I think a key tell for me here going into the future is whether advanced data protection returns to the UK.

00:15:00   So that had to be removed.

00:15:02   So basically, the UK government said, you can't do this.

00:15:06   And also, we want the backdoor if you do do this.

00:15:08   Apple's like, you know what, we're just going to turn off this feature and tell everyone we're going to get rid of it.

00:15:12   So I actually removed advanced data protection from my phone before I was forced to do so.

00:15:19   And currently, it's still unavailable for me to sign up for.

00:15:22   I'm on the beta.

00:15:23   I don't know if that affects anything.

00:15:24   But I hope sometime in the future, I can turn ADP back on.

00:15:28   But it seems like that this whole hubbub, this whole ridiculous hubbub has been taken care of.

00:15:33   Yeah, I guess so.

00:15:34   It's very interesting.

00:15:36   It's hard to follow because they're not, technically, you're not allowed to speak.

00:15:40   But there was a whistleblower somewhere.

00:15:41   Yeah.

00:15:42   I do wonder if there's an understanding here that something like Apple's not going to turn it back on for people, but it's not going to turn it off.

00:15:55   And it's just sort of one of these, like, agreement to not compel Apple to do more.

00:16:02   And it's just going to keep doing what it's doing, which is because before it was going to be compelled to do this.

00:16:07   And it seems like that's not going to happen now.

00:16:09   It's just because now I can't turn it back on again.

00:16:12   And I like that feature.

00:16:14   And we don't know what is going on here.

00:16:18   But this is interesting because this sounds like it's very much, look, that U.K. regulation totally overreached, right?

00:16:27   It basically said, hey, we in the U.K. have decided that we get data everywhere from anyone in the world.

00:16:34   And in this case, the U.S. government, but it really could have been any government, said, no, that's not going to work for us.

00:16:41   And I mean, that's good because that shouldn't – I mean, I don't like it for U.K. citizens either, but I certainly don't like it for literally anyone in the world.

00:16:52   One government says you have to give us all your data anywhere in the world if we ask for it.

00:16:56   It's a bit much.

00:16:58   I do think Apple would have probably objected at the exact same way even if they would have just said it was just for U.K. citizens.

00:17:05   I'm not sure if the American part really affected them too much, but it enabled them to be able to get the U.S. government to kind of like bully their way back through the doors, you know, and kind of get my government to shut up and sit down, which is essentially what happened.

00:17:20   For listeners who are excited about folder actions in Tahoe, Jason has written an article about them already.

00:17:26   He's just – he's so excited.

00:17:28   He can't stop.

00:17:29   It's true.

00:17:30   Well, so here's the deal.

00:17:31   It's a fun new feature in Tahoe, and what I found is people don't understand how to do it, and that is down to the fact that Apple made it require knowledge of shortcuts, extra knowledge of shortcuts.

00:17:47   I mean, the way this works basically is that at a time or when a folder has something added to it or changes in it or a file is updated or whatever, it can run a shortcut, and so obviously you need to know something about shortcuts because you have to go in and set the shortcut to run, but the problem is, you know, when it's a folder monitoring for changes, what happens is there's no UI.

00:18:10   You're basically – your shortcut is given a list of changes, and then that's it, and then Apple walks away, which means – so my article is basically like, how do you deal with this?

00:18:24   And the answer is you have to do a repeat loop that repeats for each item in the list and then acts on it or tests it or whatever, and so you need to know how to put in a repeat loop.

00:18:38   So I have some screenshots for that, and then you can filter because it will – the other thing is, like, if you're like, I need this – if this particular kind of file is added to my downloads folder, I want to act on it.

00:18:49   You can't set that in the UI.

00:18:51   You have to either add a filter step at the very top, filter files that says, you know, it has to be – and then you set up a set of rules.

00:19:00   The extension is markdown or MD or whatever, or you can do an if statement inside the loop that says, if this file has attributes of whatever, then perform this action, otherwise don't.

00:19:18   But, you know, I think there are people who could build a fairly simple shortcut to do what they want, but what they have to do is build their own filtering interface.

00:19:27   This is something that if you use something like Hazel, it comes with a filtering interface for all of this.

00:19:32   You build the rules.

00:19:33   You set it up and say, then do this thing.

00:19:35   And that's why you would – that's a reason to use a third-party utility like Hazel, even though Apple has provided this, because, you know, to do it in shortcuts, you need to add all of those extra little bits.

00:19:47   And then the extra wrinkle here that Dan Morin found is it acts on subfolders by default.

00:19:53   So if you pick a folder, any change to anything inside that folder or a folder inside that folder or a folder inside a folder inside a folder also kicks off.

00:20:03   And then trying to find a way to say, no, no, no, not subfolders is actually really hard.

00:20:11   And we had a couple different ways where we tried to deal with it.

00:20:13   I mean, my opinion is some of this stuff should probably just be built by Apple when you set up an automation.

00:20:19   But they didn't for whatever reason.

00:20:22   And so my piece in six colors is sort of some basic guidelines to how to get that up and running because it's a really cool feature, right?

00:20:28   I mean, the idea that if a file just ends up somewhere on your Mac, your Mac does something to it, and that it's an OS feature, you don't have to install third-party software, that's pretty powerful.

00:20:38   Or a little less complex, but the idea that you can set a shortcut to run at a particular time or whatever, that's also really nice.

00:20:46   And that's been available on iOS for a while, but not on the Mac until Tahoe.

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00:22:53   Rumor roundup time.

00:22:56   Yeehaw!

00:22:57   Got a lot of rumors to round up today, Jason.

00:22:59   It's that time of year, I think.

00:23:01   Let's do it.

00:23:02   Bloomberg is reporting that Apple is currently boosting manufacturing capability in India to prepare for manufacturing the majority of this year's US iPhones in the country.

00:23:12   Depending on the reporting that I've read, it dictates how much is being said is being made here.

00:23:22   Some reports say it's all US iPhones, and Apple have kind of hinted towards that.

00:23:26   But other reports, including this Bloomberg one, go a little softer on it, which I think might be maybe the more accurate way to look at it.

00:23:32   They might not all be made in India, push comes to shove.

00:23:35   But I think ideally for Apple, they would much prefer to get the majority of them made there.

00:23:42   This is significant because it's the first time that all four iPhones will be produced in India at the original time of release.

00:23:50   So Apple will have a lot of phones made in India and have for some time, I think, had even like, you know, the new iPhone comes around, the base one, and it will be made in India to start with, and it will be used in different places.

00:24:01   But for all of the phones, including the Pro phones, to be made in India on day one is a big deal.

00:24:07   Bloomberg sources indicate that around half of the iPhones produced in India will be by the Tata Group over the next two years.

00:24:14   That's kind of the plan.

00:24:15   This is another interesting thing because it shifts them away from Foxconn and China.

00:24:20   So both things are the diversification, right?

00:24:23   So like we're always talking about diversifying from China.

00:24:27   This is also diversifying manufacturing partner because even in India, the other half of those phones will be made by Foxconn factories in India.

00:24:36   But this is actually them breaking away even from Foxconn.

00:24:40   So I find that interesting too, that like they're working with another manufacturer as well as taking themselves out of one country.

00:24:48   Right.

00:24:49   That's Foxconn, which is a Taiwan-based but very heavy in China manufacturing company moving to an Indian manufacturing company.

00:24:58   Yeah.

00:24:59   And this is like tariffs, right?

00:25:02   Tariffs might be a part of this, although how exempt is Apple and what does it matter and what are the tariffs in China versus the tariffs in India for Apple, which is a different question.

00:25:09   There's a lot going on there.

00:25:11   But leaving that aside, diversification is exactly, I think, the other part of the story here.

00:25:17   And this is, you know, China is well aware of Apple's precarious position in depending on China, right?

00:25:26   They're well aware.

00:25:28   However, I would say that the Trump administration's focus on American manufacturing and the sort of scattershot tariff thing that just kind of clouds global transactions certainly provides Apple reason, but also cover to diversify its manufacturing outside of China.

00:25:53   And so, again, I think that this plays to Apple's benefit in the long run, because I think even if Apple doesn't, like if you were to say, oh, yeah, but they've spent all this money building things in China or in India to get out of China, and it turns out that the tariffs are the same or the tariffs are worse in India or whatever, would Apple regret it?

00:26:14   And I think the answer is no.

00:26:15   I think Apple got too single-sourced from China, and even though China is and will remain a major portion of Apple's production system, because Apple really does have a global production system, I think Apple will be very happy if in 10 years there are, you know, five or six countries where they're making iPhones.

00:26:39   And that it's just like we make them all over the world, different parts, because then if something happens in one of them, and this is why, I mean, this came up and gave them some cover during COVID, right?

00:26:48   Because there were some COVID shutdowns where Apple like lost the ability to make Macs for a little while because of a particular area in China that had a COVID outbreak and a factory shutdown.

00:26:57   China shut down differently to a lot of the world, like very, very aggressively for a long time.

00:27:04   So from a geopolitical standpoint, but also from a logistical standpoint, it's a thing that plays into Apple's hands.

00:27:10   Now, we'll see how it goes.

00:27:12   I mean, if that Apple in China book taught us anything, it's that Apple has some pretty exacting standards.

00:27:19   And if they are happy with the output coming out of India, that means that they have, this is what happened in China, is Apple's exacting standards created knowledge and capacity in China for building phones.

00:27:35   And then, you know, now they also build other phones and other stuff that they've learned from Apple.

00:27:40   That's probably what's been going on in India, right?

00:27:43   Because like, I don't think anybody's going to take a phone out of the box that was assembled in India and go, oh, the glass is sideways and it's the wrong, it's two different colors.

00:27:52   And like Apple's standards are so high that what they're doing is instead they're forcing these factories to be, because Apple's there, right?

00:28:01   It's not just like they let Tata build it and this is the lesson of Foxconn is Apple's really running that factory and determining what comes out of it and setting the bar where they feel it needs to be set.

00:28:13   And that ends up benefiting the knowledge base in India to do electronics manufacturing like this in the long run.

00:28:22   I am interested, though.

00:28:23   Like, I agree with what you're saying.

00:28:26   It's not like you're going to take the phone out of the box and the camera's going to fall out, right?

00:28:30   But this is clearly an accelerated timeline than what Apple would have done with making their own decisions.

00:28:37   They wouldn't have done this, I don't think.

00:28:39   Not this year.

00:28:40   To go all India this year, I don't think would have been the plan.

00:28:43   No.

00:28:43   No, but it's, like I said, it is both geopolitical reality and also providing pretty good cover for Apple to make changes that will benefit it in a long run.

00:28:52   They were always going to do this, right?

00:28:54   Because it's like there's a lot of benefit to it.

00:28:56   But, like, would they have made the iPhone 17 Pro in India for the U.S. in 2025?

00:29:03   No, they would be much less aggressive.

00:29:04   Yeah.

00:29:04   Much less aggressive.

00:29:05   So what I wonder is, while I agree with you, I don't expect quality to be an issue, I wonder if availability will be an issue.

00:29:12   Like, will there be, you know, will they be able to produce them at the exact same quality level, at the exact same volumes as the Foxconn plants in China can?

00:29:22   It will be interesting to see, right?

00:29:24   And when Bloomberg hedges here, I think that is one of the things that may happen, is they're building as many as they can in India, and the rest of them, to fill demand, will come from China.

00:29:39   Yep.

00:29:40   Yeah, that's a good point.

00:29:41   Because it's like, they are still making the rest of the world's phones in China.

00:29:46   In China.

00:29:47   And I would expect it is, I'm just going to assume this, like, shockingly easy to be able to scale up in China fast.

00:29:54   Like, if they needed to be able to make 2 million more phones this week, they could just say, can we have 2 million more this week?

00:30:03   And they would go, yeah, okay, then.

00:30:04   You know, and like, I'm sure it's not as simple as that, but I also expect that it is simpler than I would have, than you would naturally assume, considering how complex these things are.

00:30:13   I want to go back to tariffs.

00:30:14   So, there is an interesting thing about tariffs, because if you've been paying attention to the news, like, at the moment, India is one of the hardest-hit tariff countries by the US, right?

00:30:24   There's, like, over 50% or something like that.

00:30:26   There are tariff exemptions.

00:30:29   There are a bunch of carve-outs.

00:30:31   So, it seems that, as of right now, iPhones will still have a tariff, if they're being made in India, but it's the base tariff, which is lower than China's base tariff.

00:30:42   Okay.

00:30:43   So, there are different sectoral tariffs that go super high.

00:30:48   Yeah, but then doesn't Apple also have some sort of, like, pass, because they're...

00:30:53   They have a pass to some of it.

00:30:55   They're friendly.

00:30:55   But they still have to pay some of it.

00:30:57   Like, because that's why, like, they're like, hey, there's going to be, like, a billion dollars of tariffs or whatever.

00:31:01   Like, Apple is still paying some stuff for some things.

00:31:06   It is incredibly complicated.

00:31:07   They're not...

00:31:08   It does...

00:31:08   It appears from the reporting, from what I've been reading, they will pay something, but it's not going to be as high as you would imagine.

00:31:15   And, but as you mentioned, all of this is just, like, the perfect shield for Apple from a political standpoint.

00:31:22   Because it's one of these things, it is politics, right?

00:31:24   In the sense of...

00:31:25   It is.

00:31:25   China knows what Apple's doing.

00:31:27   Apple knows China knows what they're doing.

00:31:29   Yeah.

00:31:30   But they can say, what are we supposed to do?

00:31:31   It's very political, right?

00:31:33   It's just like, oh, well, you know my hands.

00:31:36   You know my hands are tied.

00:31:37   But it's like, we all know what each other wants in this scenario.

00:31:40   And I feel like what the story isn't is Apple getting out of China, right?

00:31:45   Which is a risk, right?

00:31:47   There's no need to do that.

00:31:48   No, there's no need to do that.

00:31:49   China has been an incredible partner to Apple, but they need to have more than one place that can make these phones at the level that they need them.

00:31:58   China loses some leverage there, but I think even China has to understand that it's just how it is.

00:32:04   I mean, nobody...

00:32:05   China dictates terms to businesses in China.

00:32:07   I think they understand what it's like if you're an American company to have terms dictated to you.

00:32:11   You're like, yeah, okay, we get that.

00:32:13   And they're not saying we're out of China.

00:32:15   They're not...

00:32:16   Apple's stated thing is, like, we're not trying to get out of China.

00:32:19   When Tim Cook talks about it, he says, we make stuff in lots of countries and assemble stuff in lots of countries.

00:32:24   It's complicated.

00:32:25   And what he doesn't say is, yeah, we're trying to get out of China.

00:32:29   And that's, I think that that is good, too, for China and Apple.

00:32:33   So, yeah.

00:32:34   9to5Mac is reporting by Lika Maijinbu that Apple will have a replacement for the fine-woven case this year.

00:32:42   It said it will be called tech-woven.

00:32:45   Which is...

00:32:47   Tech-ly.

00:32:47   That's quite a name.

00:32:49   Boo-boo-boo!

00:32:49   Choo-choo-choo!

00:32:50   Choo!

00:32:50   It's the first iPhone phone that comes with lasers!

00:32:53   Choo-choo!

00:32:54   Tech-woven!

00:32:55   It appears to be a new synthetic fabric, which, if the images are to be believed, is much more textured.

00:33:01   It looks kind of rubbery.

00:33:03   Fine-woven, too.

00:33:05   The name seems really strange to me, but there have been some images of boxes.

00:33:11   I still don't know if I think it's going to be called tech-woven.

00:33:16   Maybe it is.

00:33:18   I just think that's a...

00:33:19   I do think that's a terrible name.

00:33:20   As well as actual buttons.

00:33:23   It said that the case will feature holes for lanyards and maybe charms you could put on there.

00:33:30   Apparently, this is something that's coming to the silicone cases, too.

00:33:33   So, there'll be a little lanyard hole for a lanyard in your phone case.

00:33:37   Oh, yeah.

00:33:38   Or charms, like you put on your Crocs.

00:33:39   They're called gibbets.

00:33:41   Oh, they're gibbets.

00:33:43   Yeah, that's right.

00:33:43   We've established this.

00:33:45   But it says the people keep saying that there is a lanyard hole, which it is.

00:33:49   But I do actually think that this will mostly be used to put charms on your iPhone.

00:33:54   That's what I expect is going to happen.

00:33:55   Little dealies.

00:33:55   I just want to be clear.

00:33:59   Fine-woven, also a bad name.

00:34:01   Yeah, you know what?

00:34:02   You're right, actually.

00:34:03   It's kind of been normalized in my brain.

00:34:05   But fine-woven was a terrible name.

00:34:06   It's also a bad name.

00:34:07   It wasn't fine.

00:34:08   It was less than fine.

00:34:09   It was a bad case.

00:34:10   It was not fine.

00:34:11   It was not fine Corinthian leather by any stretch of the imagination.

00:34:14   So, tech-woven, we will see.

00:34:15   I admire their commitment to the bit.

00:34:17   Also, I admire everybody out there who still makes leather cases for those who choose to go that route.

00:34:26   So, good.

00:34:28   And I'll just say, again, Lauren had a fine-woven case.

00:34:30   And after about six months, it was so battered and destroyed that we got her a leather case.

00:34:37   And it's great.

00:34:38   So, yeah.

00:34:39   Yeah, well, I wish them well.

00:34:41   We'll see where it is.

00:34:42   This is...

00:34:42   Okay.

00:34:43   Here's the fine-woven recap from what was that.

00:34:45   We did this in Memphis, what, two years ago.

00:34:48   Yeah.

00:34:48   It was very...

00:34:50   Oh, that air conditioning in the pod cabin was so...

00:34:52   Oh, it was so cold in there.

00:34:53   Anyway.

00:34:53   I loved it.

00:34:54   The recap is...

00:34:57   Apple makes a lot of money from accessories.

00:35:00   It's wearables, home, and accessories.

00:35:02   Accessories are a big part of it.

00:35:03   iPhone cases.

00:35:04   Why do they exist?

00:35:05   Why does Apple make iPhone cases?

00:35:07   It's because it's so easy for Apple to upsell you on.

00:35:09   It's online store or in its store saying, would you like a case with that?

00:35:12   When I took my fateful trip to the Fresno Apple store with all of Lauren's family, that was

00:35:19   one of the moments where it was like, would you like a screen protector?

00:35:21   But it's also, would you like an Apple case?

00:35:23   And they sell other cases there too, right?

00:35:25   But mostly it's Apple cases.

00:35:28   So, Apple makes a lot of extra money on the sale of every iPhone from accessories.

00:35:33   And if you look at the price of that leather case, it was premium.

00:35:37   It was the expensive one.

00:35:38   The silicone one is not cheap.

00:35:40   None of them are cheap.

00:35:41   So, the leather one was expensive.

00:35:43   And so, like, why did they stop making leather?

00:35:45   Because they had environmental reasons and okay.

00:35:48   Why did they start making fine woven, which will now be tech woven?

00:35:53   The answer is because they wanted another thing that wasn't silicone, that felt more premium,

00:35:59   so they could sell it at that high price, which is a huge margin.

00:36:03   And so, that's the reason for fine woven, and that'll be the reason for tech woven, is they really want another material that they can sell as a premium because they make a huge amount of money and per unit a huge profit on selling these things because they got the Apple logo, and it's an upsell when you're in the store, and it's just business.

00:36:22   And I would wager that most, well, not most, many upgrade users, a much higher percentage of upgrade listeners than in the general public are savvy, and they're finding, like, the cool case that they can get that's a pretty good deal, or it's got really good materials.

00:36:39   But I would say most people, it's just like, they go in the Apple store, they buy a phone, and they're like, yeah, I want the pink one, and then get the case, and they're done until they buy another iPhone in five years.

00:36:50   So, it's a place for Apple to take that $1,000 iPhone purchase and make it an $1,100 iPhone purchase and add another $80 to their profit on that sale.

00:37:01   So, that's why the wovens, the woven family of materials, Mike, the woven, it's not a color way, material way, exists.

00:37:12   Form way.

00:37:13   Boo says that there will be an opening for the camera control, which would be a strange choice.

00:37:19   If it's a hole, because the silicone cases, they have a little piece of sapphire in them.

00:37:23   Yeah, a little button.

00:37:25   So, you don't, I wouldn't like that.

00:37:27   That'd be bad.

00:37:28   Apple to use, just stick your finger in there, it's fine.

00:37:30   That'd be bad, that'd be bad.

00:37:31   Just stick it in there.

00:37:33   It remains to be seen how tech woven would hold up, but Majin Buu says they, quote, resist glossing and maintain a consistent appearance even after weeks of use.

00:37:42   How they would know that?

00:37:43   I don't know.

00:37:44   Well, they have little, I mean, first off, they probably tested it, but there are also machines that do wearing tests that companies use.

00:37:51   Oh, good point, good point, yeah.

00:37:51   But, look, they've had two years, and they know that fine woven was not really well received, and they've been trying to make something better.

00:37:58   I'm sure one of the things they've been trying to address is all of the issues with fine woven.

00:38:04   So, they're trying.

00:38:06   We'll see.

00:38:07   We'll see how they do.

00:38:08   Mark Gurman, worrying case corner.

00:38:10   Mark Gurman is also reporting that Apple have considered making a bumper case for the iPhone Air.

00:38:16   So, you know, you could still feel the thinness of the phone and just be protected in all the ways that matter.

00:38:22   Bumper case, S-tier case, best case for the iPhone 4, 5.

00:38:27   Those cases were amazing because you were still holding the phone, but you had a little bumper around the edge in case you dropped it.

00:38:32   So, we'll see about that.

00:38:34   Mac Rumors is reporting via Leaker Digital Chat Station that the design of the iPhone 17e could change when it's expected to be released next year.

00:38:46   Yeah, next year.

00:38:47   The notch would be replaced with Dynamic Island.

00:38:49   It would have an A19 chip and a refresh to the industrial design, which Mac Rumors speculates could maybe mirror the iPhone 15 design, which would be in line with how the 16e is modeled on the iPhone 14.

00:39:02   Great.

00:39:02   That is maybe more interesting when we get to my next rumor, which is this one, which I meant to put before this one, but there we go.

00:39:11   Sometimes the rumors get away from you in the roundup.

00:39:15   We mentioned that this happened just as we were recording last week and we were going to touch on them more this week.

00:39:19   This is when Mike can take his victory lap now.

00:39:21   Because Mac Rumors is reporting via ET News that the iPhone 18 will not debut in 2026, but in spring 2027.

00:39:30   So this would be along with a 17e.

00:39:33   So this is the long suggested by me and others splitting of the iPhone line into two releases throughout the year.

00:39:40   So you would get the Pro phones and a folding phone in September of 2026.

00:39:46   And then the regular 18 and the 17e would be in March of 2027.

00:39:53   I'd be interested to see where the air goes if it continues past year one, which I'm sure it will, but you never know.

00:39:59   It would be the 18.

00:40:00   It would be the 18 and the 18e, not the 17e.

00:40:02   17e will come this spring.

00:40:04   Yeah.

00:40:04   This coming spring.

00:40:05   So it's the following year because they're going to keep that one number parity now.

00:40:08   And if you'd like to, if you think to yourself, why would they do this?

00:40:11   Here's a great summary from Hayley Charlton at 9to5Mac.

00:40:14   By 2027, Apple's lineup will expand to six new iPhones per year with the possibility of as many as 10 models available.

00:40:21   If Apple continues its practice of keeping earlier generations on sale at reduced prices.

00:40:26   I mean, if you're doing six new models a year, and this was your point, Samsung does this.

00:40:32   Samsung releases so many phones that they do too.

00:40:35   And we keep talking here about how in our community, the iPhone event is another Apple event.

00:40:41   But in the world, the iPhone event is the biggest Apple event by far.

00:40:45   That gets covered differently.

00:40:46   And we even see it in our download numbers and in web traffic.

00:40:52   The iPhone event is huge in a way that other Apple events are not because it's the iPhone and it's the biggest product by far that they sell.

00:41:00   It's not the same as these other products.

00:41:03   So you could do it twice.

00:41:05   You could do it twice a year and get that attention, global product attention twice a year.

00:41:09   You could have two totally separate commercial rollouts, marketing rollouts on TV and at sporting events and stuff like that.

00:41:18   And if you're going to add models every year, so you're releasing six phones a year, which would be the 18 Air, 18 Pro, 18 Pro Max, 18E and 18 Fold.

00:41:36   That's six phones.

00:41:38   Maybe introduce three of them at a time.

00:41:40   Yep.

00:41:41   Makes sense?

00:41:42   And then also, because they are still going to be iPhone events, you can slot in other products and have them be seen by more people, right?

00:41:52   Sure.

00:41:52   Instead of doing a bunch of press releases for some Macs or whatever, or instead of like saying, hey, everyone, come watch this iPad event.

00:42:00   It's like, oh, hey, no, we have another Apple event.

00:42:02   Everyone knows there's going to be iPhones at that event.

00:42:05   And also there'll be other products too.

00:42:07   And that might help them kind of make those a little bit more interesting as well, because it will be, I will be fascinated to see exactly how in this world, Apple sells the iPhone 18 when we know everything about what it will have six months before.

00:42:28   Right.

00:42:29   Like that phone is not a mystery.

00:42:30   And it's, it's not meant to be right.

00:42:33   It's not going to be on the cutting edge.

00:42:34   Um, it's going to be, it might be slightly mysterious about what they choose to put in it versus the pro models.

00:42:40   Yep.

00:42:40   But the fact is, you know, I don't watch as much sports in the spring as I do in the fall, but I, I can tell you, like, I've seen Apple market the 16E.

00:42:54   Yep.

00:42:55   And I've seen Apple market the 16 in general.

00:42:58   And the colors, when they, when they put like new colors in it.

00:43:01   So they're like, hey, here's the yellow one or whatever.

00:43:02   Yeah.

00:43:03   Yeah.

00:43:04   So it seems weird to us, but Apple is selling the iPhone all year long.

00:43:09   And, and this just, again, we might be like, oh yeah, but with the pros already came out.

00:43:14   But, you know, again, you're watching a basketball game and there's an iPhone ad.

00:43:18   It's fine.

00:43:20   Like that, Apple's doing this all, all year round.

00:43:22   I think, I think that's one of those cases, the iPhone, and the reason I keep saying that the iPhone event is the biggest event of the year and all of that is because I think in our community, the iPhone doesn't have the stature that it has in the world.

00:43:34   And we just think of it as being sort of like another Apple product.

00:43:37   And the truth is it's, it's the Apple product.

00:43:39   And so like they're, they're marketing it all the time and doing a second rollout makes a lot of sense to me.

00:43:44   And also, I mean, let's be honest here.

00:43:47   If they're going to do six phones a year, even if the e-phone is going to be in the spring, five new phones in September, not only is that huge and hard for Apple from a manufacturing standpoint, but obviously from a marketing standpoint, it's, you're flooding the zone.

00:44:04   From retail, you make, it's harder for the retail store to, to handle everything.

00:44:09   It's like, it becomes really, it just also just imagine the event itself is just getting longer and longer and longer.

00:44:17   Like it, it allows them to be able to let the pro phones and the folding phones to breathe a bit too, that they can spend more time talking about.

00:44:26   The people who really, really, really want to be on the cutting edge, the pro and the fold phones will be the ones that they care about.

00:44:32   And for people who don't care so much, it coming out in the spring is fine, right?

00:44:38   Because those are, those are more people.

00:44:41   And I know there are, these are generalizations and there are people who are like, well, I always get a phone every couple of years and I always do it in the fall where, when it's the new one, but I never get the pro phone.

00:44:49   And it's like, okay, I mean, that, that will happen, but I think there is a less, it's a less committed, uh, first off, phones get bought all year round.

00:45:00   They are not annual purchases for almost anybody.

00:45:03   I know there are people out there who are on the annual plan and all that, but like the bulk of people, it's many years and they're not doing it in the fall, uh, necessarily.

00:45:12   And putting them out in the spring, it's just not a big deal.

00:45:15   I don't think we may think, oh, well, that makes them an afterthought in the spring, but I don't think the world thinks that.

00:45:20   Yeah, you're right.

00:45:21   You're right.

00:45:22   Yeah.

00:45:23   I think that this is absolutely the right move.

00:45:25   I just think they're, they're making it so complicated.

00:45:28   And even if they just stuck with kind of like the four main phones, I still think it's worth doing right.

00:45:35   That you have the pros at one point and the, the, like, you know, the regular phone and maybe the air at a different time.

00:45:41   Like I still, even, even without adding the fold, folding phone into the mix, I still think it makes sense to do it this way.

00:45:47   And so I look forward to them doing it.

00:45:49   Um, this, this is, um, I, I didn't actually mention the reason that this came up is this was through supply chain briefing.

00:45:57   So there were like supply chain briefings that were like, oh, don't expect the regular phone in 2026.

00:46:05   Right.

00:46:07   That would be a pushback.

00:46:08   And I have to imagine that even though Apple is obviously designing phones all the time, including for many years out, I have to imagine getting to final production ramp.

00:46:22   Taking a big chunk of that and moving it to a different time of year, probably in the long run will make things easier.

00:46:28   Yes.

00:46:28   Because it's creating less of a bump in one particular time of year.

00:46:33   And even at the factories where I presume that, you know, production line shifts are happening and are hard.

00:46:39   And it may even be staffing.

00:46:41   Like if you're, if you're sort of like every six months turning over a portion of your production line, you might actually be able to keep, uh, your staffing levels more static because you don't have a big bump where you need to bring people in.

00:46:53   Instead, they're sort of working all year round.

00:46:56   I don't know enough about that stuff, but I've got to think three and three is better than, than four in one.

00:47:03   It's like, we both know enough people at Apple that like September for them is hellish, even though it happens every year.

00:47:12   It's because you've still got to push, like everything is going to hit this hard deadline.

00:47:18   Right.

00:47:19   So removing some, removing some of it and like moving it out and like you have less assets to create, less of this, less of this, it will make it that little bit easier.

00:47:29   Less testing to do, you know, you will, you'll be testing half the models then instead of all of the models then to make sure that they're working with the OS that you're putting on them.

00:47:39   Right.

00:47:39   Even if it's simple stuff like that.

00:47:40   So I've got to think, I'm sure there are some complications, but like, yeah, it makes a whole lot of sense to do it this way.

00:47:46   I think for the bigger picture, uh, as, uh, what was it, uh, Jason in the discord said, and I think that he, he said this really well, the people buying these phones aren't connected to the iPhone cycle.

00:47:56   My wife's last two phones were bought in the summer with full knowledge.

00:47:59   New phones were coming in the fall.

00:48:00   It didn't matter.

00:48:01   Didn't care.

00:48:01   No regrets.

00:48:02   And I think that that is absolutely a hundred percent true.

00:48:04   Our audience feels differently.

00:48:06   Right.

00:48:07   But a lot of people just don't care.

00:48:08   And that's when I, when I say the iPhone is sold all year round, that's what I mean is like, we're going to get the next set of results are going to, and this last set that we just had, I mean, we are in the desert of iPhone and they still sell a load of iPhones because most people don't care.

00:48:22   They're upgrading from a phone so old that they don't need to wait three months.

00:48:27   They drop their phone, the screen shattered.

00:48:29   They're like, you know what?

00:48:30   I'm just going to get a new phone now.

00:48:31   It's just, they don't, they just don't, they're not on a cycle like that.

00:48:34   It's still a really new phone for them.

00:48:36   Yeah.

00:48:36   That, that is a very good point, right?

00:48:37   Like, if it was the way that we think, the iPhones would only be sold in one and a half quarters of the year, which is not the case.

00:48:46   Right.

00:48:47   Because everybody buys an iPhone for Christmas.

00:48:48   They're selling billions of dollars of iPhones every quarter.

00:48:53   Yeah.

00:48:53   It doesn't work like that.

00:48:54   Exactly.

00:48:55   Exactly.

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00:50:51   Mark Gurman is giving some more detail about the 2026 and 2027 iPhone line, so the one that we're expecting.

00:51:01   Yeah, he did a little roundup in his newsletter.

00:51:02   A lot of it previously reported, but he has some new details in there.

00:51:05   Yeah, there's some stuff that, as you say, is new, but also there are some things that I trust more when Mark says them.

00:51:11   One of them being, the iPhone folder is going to jump straight to it, Touch ID instead of Face ID.

00:51:17   This was another rumor which I was very disappointed about.

00:51:20   Supply chain rumor, right?

00:51:21   Yeah, and I would still be incredibly disappointed about this.

00:51:24   To me, it's kind of just like, deal with it.

00:51:28   You know what, I understand it's hard.

00:51:30   I don't care, deal with it.

00:51:31   Right?

00:51:32   Like, if the iPhone Air has Face ID, to me, there's kind of no excuse.

00:51:38   I think, so my guess here, I know you don't care, but I'm just going to say, my guess here is, they looked at the size and cost of doing the complete Face ID module on the inside and the outside of this.

00:51:52   Because it's got to be both directions, and we're like, we cannot do that.

00:51:55   I bet they want to get there, but like, or we could do a single Touch ID button on the side and use it, whether it's open or closed, and save space and save money.

00:52:07   And that's why it's going to cost $2,000 instead of $3,000.

00:52:10   You're welcome.

00:52:11   But I also understand your disappointment, which is, we love Face ID.

00:52:16   It's great.

00:52:17   I mean, it is.

00:52:18   So, I've been using a Google Pixel Fold, and it has a fingerprint touch, like the fingerprint sensor on the side.

00:52:24   I hate doing it.

00:52:25   I hate it.

00:52:26   Because I'm so used to just picking up my phone and unlocking.

00:52:32   To have to put my hand in a certain place, I find it annoying now.

00:52:37   You get the muscle memory.

00:52:37   There was a Google, I want to say a Nexus phone, that had a fingerprint reader on the back, and I would literally pick it up, and I just learned to pick it up with my index finger in that place, and it became invisible, right?

00:52:48   So, you can do it.

00:52:49   And having used iPads with Touch ID a little bit, with the Touch ID button, like, it's okay.

00:52:57   But I also agree, I like that you're positioning yourself now as a, you know, the people demand Face ID.

00:53:04   I like it.

00:53:05   Yeah.

00:53:05   Because it's like, I agree with what you're saying.

00:53:07   It makes sense, because you would have to have two assemblies, right?

00:53:10   Two Face ID assemblies.

00:53:11   But my feeling on it is, I don't care.

00:53:13   I know you don't care.

00:53:15   That's your problem, not mine.

00:53:17   All I can do is explain why, I think, because it's two in a phone that's thin and has limited space and also is going to cost a fortune.

00:53:25   I can see why they're like, can we get away with a single?

00:53:28   And your argument, I think, is a good one, which is, this is a super premium, expensive phone.

00:53:32   Just do it.

00:53:33   And I get that, too.

00:53:35   I'm sure there were some very technical reasons why.

00:53:38   You're going to ask me to spend more money on an iPhone than I've ever spent, maybe even twice the price of the other iPhone that I would buy, and then I end up with Touch ID, which, I don't care what you say, we all know is set to be an inferior experience.

00:53:52   Like, that's how we think of it.

00:53:54   Like, that's how Apple tells us to think of it.

00:53:56   People have their own opinions about Touch ID over Face ID.

00:53:59   I get it, but that's not the way it's positioned.

00:54:01   Face ID is considered an upgrade over Touch ID.

00:54:04   So, but anyway, let's move on from that.

00:54:06   This is next year's, next year's mic review of this product.

00:54:08   This is, I will complain next year.

00:54:10   I look forward to next September being able to say, we've been talking about this for more than a year, Mike.

00:54:14   Yeah, and I'll say that, and I'm still mad about it.

00:54:17   They're currently expecting to offer just black and white models.

00:54:20   That is not surprising that this, this phone will be a little bit more like we're not going to make six more versions of this.

00:54:27   The fewer you sell, the fewer SKUs you want, I think.

00:54:32   Five cameras.

00:54:33   Count them.

00:54:35   One on the front.

00:54:36   One on the inside.

00:54:38   Mark said two on the back.

00:54:40   He was obviously meant three on the back.

00:54:41   I'm just going to correct Mark Gurman's article there.

00:54:44   Oh, yeah, because otherwise there's a mystery camera.

00:54:46   There's four.

00:54:47   Where is it?

00:54:47   I just think it's three on the back.

00:54:49   I think it means three on the back.

00:54:50   Okay.

00:54:51   So that makes sense.

00:54:52   It would feature the C2 modem, which, quote, will be the company's first cellular chip with capabilities approaching the latest from Qualcomm.

00:55:01   Yeah.

00:55:01   I'm not sure if he knows anything here other than the fact that it's the C2 and that he's previously reported that they're on a path to make a—you're not going to believe this, Mike.

00:55:09   C2 is going to be better than C1.

00:55:11   I actually don't believe it's possible.

00:55:12   And Apple have recently switched to a new screen approach that would diminish the crease on the inside display.

00:55:18   Yeah, it sounds like they were trying to use this technology that was a little less accurate and created a little more of a gap and diminished the crease on the inside, or made the crease maybe a little bit more.

00:55:30   And the question is, not covered in that article, is why were they trying to use that sort of cell technology instead?

00:55:36   My guess is they were trying to save on thickness or save on price or both.

00:55:42   I think it was partly price.

00:55:42   I think it was partly price.

00:55:44   Yeah, and they realized that wasn't good enough.

00:55:47   And I think that that's a case where Apple probably just said, no, we've got to use the more presumably expensive technology because it solves—it makes the touch more accurate.

00:55:59   It brings the screen closer to the surface, and it reduces crease.

00:56:04   And if that means that our price has to go up by $100 or $200, they said, so be it.

00:56:11   This is the iPhone fold.

00:56:12   And honestly, I think that's the right decision.

00:56:16   Yeah.

00:56:16   I think this is the kind of product that some people are going to want at any price.

00:56:21   And I think the fewer things that feel like a compromise, the better.

00:56:26   I don't know this is the case.

00:56:28   I'm just absolutely just shooting from the hip.

00:56:30   My expectation is this is a newer thing, too, because in the last year, there have been some pretty big leaps in the screen technology for these phones.

00:56:41   Because there's no gaps anymore.

00:56:43   They're all getting super thin.

00:56:45   I think this is maybe like a newer way of doing it, which is basically making a folding version of the current screens that we have rather than a folding-first screen, which it might have been before.

00:56:55   Right, right.

00:56:56   And the thing, because I know that Samsung has gotten really good reviews for its new fold, and Samsung is making this screen for Apple.

00:57:04   Yeah.

00:57:04   I would just say it may be the Samsung screen we see today.

00:57:09   It may also be that Samsung and Apple are both going to use the screen that isn't out yet that's next year's screen.

00:57:14   Yeah, possible.

00:57:15   Which is even better.

00:57:16   But either way, I know we said this a few months ago, but this is why it's happening now, is that the tech has gotten to the point now.

00:57:24   And I think this is a great sign in some ways of Apple saying, no, no, no, no, we're going to do it the good way.

00:57:28   Because Apple is now confident that they can make a product that they can stand behind and that they're excited about.

00:57:34   And that's one of the reasons I'm excited about it is I think it's going to be really good.

00:57:39   I mean, I'm very excited about this product, especially because Federico Vattici, your compatriot from Connected, just did a little Mastodon thread today where he was talking about he likes to use other products so that he can get a sense of where Apple's ahead and behind.

00:57:56   And I feel this way, too.

00:57:58   It's useful to see sort of like, even if you're not writing so much about that stuff, to just get a sense of the lay of the land.

00:58:04   It's part of the equation here.

00:58:06   And he was talking about tablet stuff because he said, look, Apple's behind in AI, right?

00:58:11   He's like, my judgment, like you can look at all the other players.

00:58:13   You can't say that they're not behind.

00:58:14   But he said, on tablets, everyone has given up.

00:58:17   And I can just tell, you know, I can tell you from my experience using various Android-based e-reader tech in the last couple of years, Apple is so much further ahead.

00:58:30   I know Google keeps trying.

00:58:31   They keep trying.

00:58:32   Apple is so far ahead on tablets.

00:58:35   And that folding phone that unfolds into basically a tablet, it's going to be huge.

00:58:42   I know it's going to be expensive.

00:58:44   It's not going to sell in volume, but it's going to be really, really good.

00:58:47   And one of the reasons why is that we talk about Apple investing 10 years in something like the Vision Pro and hoping for a product at the end of it.

00:58:53   Well, Apple's invested 15 years in the iPad.

00:58:56   And although the iPad's got issues, lots of issues, wow, is it going to pay off with this thing, I think.

00:59:03   This phone's going to rip.

00:59:04   It's going to sell so many that it's going to be a big success.

00:59:08   I'm not puzzled.

00:59:09   I know people are like, I don't know about this.

00:59:11   I'm not puzzled.

00:59:12   I know it's going to cost a fortune.

00:59:13   Not a lot of people are going to buy that first model.

00:59:15   But the idea that you got an iPhone and then you open it up and you got an iPad and it's one device and then you close it up and put it back in your pocket as your phone.

00:59:24   Man, that's, there is, I can see the use cases for that, right?

00:59:28   I can see them.

00:59:29   It's not for everybody.

00:59:30   I know that people are going to be, there's some people are going to be so offended by it.

00:59:34   It's like, how dare they sell this product?

00:59:35   But like, I'm just telling you that you pay a premium, but what you get is a thing that is both an iPhone and an iPad at the same time.

00:59:43   That's pretty awesome.

00:59:44   Real-time follow-up, because I was going here, because I know that Mark German had said something in the article about like, he expects it to be super popular, which we agree with.

00:59:53   He updated it to say that it will feature four cameras, one on the front, one on the inside and two on the back.

00:59:59   Okay.

01:00:00   So the math, the math is slightly different.

01:00:01   So two on the back.

01:00:02   So it is down from a pro, which is kind of, I'm not surprised by that, but still two, two, two cameras on the back.

01:00:11   So not, not completely compromised down to one.

01:00:13   Great.

01:00:14   And then in 2027, iPhone 20.

01:00:18   Double X.

01:00:19   I'm just going to read Mark's, Mark's description of this device here.

01:00:24   This design will finally break from the squared off slab we've lived with since 2020.

01:00:29   But I found that funny.

01:00:31   Like, it's like, it's not, Mark, these phones are not bad and it's not like, it's okay.

01:00:37   Like they're good.

01:00:37   And he says, and move to an approach of curved glass edges all around.

01:00:41   It should fit nicely with the new liquid glass interface for iOS and other operating systems

01:00:46   should be released next month.

01:00:48   I think he's trying a little too hard with the liquid glass.

01:00:51   I think too many people are leaning on this and I just don't think that there is a connection.

01:00:55   I think if there was, we would have gotten this next year, not this year.

01:00:59   I think liquid glass is inspired by Apple's, by the iPhone and the sheet of glass on it.

01:01:05   And I do agree.

01:01:06   The ideal iPhone is always going to be a thing that's essentially just the glass.

01:01:11   I think that that's what the iPhone 10 was intended to be.

01:01:14   I could argue, I know that what Mark's saying here about the, the, the squared off slab.

01:01:18   It's that, that, uh, Braun, um, style razor kind of style thing, like the iPhone five design

01:01:24   and the, and the current iPhones have that design.

01:01:26   I really liked that design, but I can also see Apple has vacillated, you know, they, they

01:01:30   go back and forth between, uh, that and the kind of super curvy smooth design, which is another

01:01:35   way to go.

01:01:35   Uh, it sounds like the iPhone 20, that's what they're going to lean into.

01:01:39   And I think, you know, great.

01:01:40   Apple needs to push design forward.

01:01:45   That was great about the iPhone 10 is that it pushed the iPhone forward.

01:01:48   People who moan about the iPhone being boring, like you can't redesign the entire phone every

01:01:55   year, especially because the tech doesn't come along fast enough, but Apple is clearly

01:02:00   over the next, and this was Mark's hook in the story.

01:02:03   Apple is clearly pushing the iPhone for the next three years in a bunch of ways, technically

01:02:07   and the, and the 2020 phone, like, or the 20, the iPhone 20, the double X, uh, it's going

01:02:13   to be interesting, right.

01:02:16   And different.

01:02:17   And they're going to try a bunch of stuff and it's going to probably lead to changes all the

01:02:22   way across the product line, but they'll probably like start with the iPhone 20 and it will be

01:02:28   kind of a wild idea.

01:02:29   I love it.

01:02:30   I mean, the idea that it would be more curvy and, and maybe like wrap around glassy and

01:02:37   maybe this is when the, the dynamic Island notch stuff disappears.

01:02:42   Um, and it feels like a, uh, it's just a slab of glass and there's not even a phone there

01:02:48   anymore.

01:02:49   Like I love it because I think that Johnny, I've always thought, and I think Apple still

01:02:54   feels this way that like the ideal, you always want to move toward a design ideal.

01:02:59   You never get there, but you're always trying to move toward it.

01:03:02   And I think one of the things that Apple has tried to move toward with the iPhone is simplification.

01:03:06   You know, it should be all screen.

01:03:09   That's like one of the things that they've tried and they keep getting closer and closer.

01:03:13   They can never quite reach it, but I think that that's what they're, what he's talking about

01:03:17   here.

01:03:17   And like, great.

01:03:18   I don't, I can't really envision exactly what this looks like, but I love that they're trying

01:03:22   it because, because they do, they need to, they need to continue to push.

01:03:25   And also they benefit because when you make a phone that looks different from your other

01:03:30   phones, people buy it.

01:03:31   That is a lesson they learned a long time ago.

01:03:33   Here's what I wonder.

01:03:34   We will have this conversation a lot of times over the next couple of years.

01:03:37   Will there be an iPhone 19 that year and the 20 is separate, like with the 10?

01:03:41   Maybe.

01:03:43   And like it, and it's similar to the 10 of like, oh, this phone is maybe a bit sooner

01:03:49   than we would want to make this phone.

01:03:51   You know, like it's really expensive and you will have to wait a year or two to get it in

01:03:55   the other phones.

01:03:56   I mean, I was just, since I wrote that macro column a couple of weeks ago, I just keep thinking

01:04:00   of this, this lesson that we all need to learn, which is you think, oh, how many iPhones

01:04:06   can Apple make?

01:04:07   How many different iPhones can they have in their product line?

01:04:09   And my answer is it's the iPhone.

01:04:11   They can make as many as they think will sell.

01:04:13   If they, if they think that there's a model for, or there's a, there's a room for a, for

01:04:19   a 19 and a 19 air and a 19 fold and a 19 pro and a 19 pro max and a 20, they'll do it.

01:04:29   Like, I mean, in fact, if you split to three and three, when you're used to doing four phones

01:04:34   in the fall, guess what?

01:04:35   You could do four phones in the fall and three in the spring just as easily.

01:04:38   And I don't think that they would keep an iPhone 20 for sale, you know, forever.

01:04:45   I, I, I think that in the next year it would be like the iPhone 10, right?

01:04:49   The next year it would start to kind of seep into the rest of the, the product line over

01:04:55   time, but like if, if they felt like the thing that made the most sense is to sell a super

01:05:01   expensive 20 alongside the 19 line, uh, or, or put it out in the spring, right?

01:05:10   We already did 19 and now we got 20, whatever.

01:05:13   Like if they think they can do it, they, they totally can do it because it's the iPhone.

01:05:17   The iPhone can withstand a lot because it is so popular.

01:05:21   I mean, if why not just have like loads of iPhone, it likes to say, why not just have

01:05:27   loads of iPhones?

01:05:27   If they can cope with it and they think people will buy them, why not just have loads of them?

01:05:31   Like I agree.

01:05:32   And I know people will say there's some confusion there, but I would also say, um, my, my argument

01:05:37   about this is Apple and the iPhone have been out so long and they are so popular that they

01:05:42   have reached a, an enormous audience of people who want an iPhone who's left, who's left.

01:05:49   Yeah.

01:05:50   And the answer is there is people who don't want to spend the money and people who, for

01:05:56   whatever reason have just not, you know, they, they, what Apple makes is not something they're

01:06:00   interested in.

01:06:00   And maybe most of those people are never going to buy an iPhone, but you know, if you're trying

01:06:03   to grow the iPhone, you need to reach those people.

01:06:06   And then simultaneously, if you're trying to grow iPhone revenue, you want to convert people

01:06:10   who are giving you, you know, who are buying a thousand dollar phone, you want to convert

01:06:15   them maybe to buying a $1,500 phone.

01:06:17   That's premium.

01:06:17   And if you get some percentage of those people, because remember what we think of as the iPhone

01:06:21   pro, uh, that's the iPhone 10 slot.

01:06:24   iPhones didn't use to cost a thousand dollars.

01:06:27   The iPhone 16, 17, those iPhones are what we used to think of as the iPhone.

01:06:34   And then with the 10, they created a higher price point, more profitable product that was

01:06:39   on the cutting edge.

01:06:40   Could they do that again?

01:06:41   Again, we don't even see unit sales anymore.

01:06:44   All we see is revenue.

01:06:45   So Apple's goal is yes, to reach people who haven't bought an iPhone and give them a reason

01:06:50   to get people to buy iPhones more often and spend more money on the iPhone.

01:06:54   These are their goals.

01:06:55   So if they could make an Apple of all brands, if they could make a super cool cutting edge

01:07:00   phone that doesn't look like anything else out there, that's got the Apple seal of quality

01:07:04   on it and it costs an extra $500, there are a lot of people who will buy it and the rest

01:07:12   of them will buy those other iPhones.

01:07:13   And that's fine too.

01:07:14   Apple wins.

01:07:15   If they want to grow iPhone revenue, which they do, they have to explore the scale, as

01:07:19   you say, right?

01:07:20   Go cheaper and more expensive.

01:07:21   Do all of it.

01:07:22   And Apple's more conservative about this than Samsung, right?

01:07:25   Samsung doesn't care.

01:07:26   Samsung have like a hundred phones.

01:07:28   Yeah, they spray out phones.

01:07:30   They have a whole line called the A series, which is just like a phone at literally every

01:07:35   price point.

01:07:36   These are the ones that are not in their events.

01:07:38   Like we say they have two events for their phones every year.

01:07:41   It does not include multiple phone models they release every single year.

01:07:45   And Apple, there are lots of price points and things that Apple's not going to do.

01:07:51   But I'm not saying Apple is going to become Samsung.

01:07:54   What I'm saying is Samsung shows you have the ability, if you've got a successful product

01:07:59   and the Samsung Galaxy line absolutely is.

01:08:01   I mean, I think there's an argument that the only two companies making huge profits on smartphones

01:08:05   right now, maybe outside of China, are Apple and Samsung, right?

01:08:09   They've got that.

01:08:09   But Samsung sells a lot of phones that aren't particularly premium and profitable and they

01:08:13   make money off of those phones too.

01:08:15   So Apple could be like Samsung, more like Samsung in the sense of exploring other price

01:08:21   points.

01:08:22   And I think that they are more careful about doing that.

01:08:25   But I think that this is a great example where, look, if Apple has a great idea for a phone

01:08:31   that is going to cost $1,500 or $2,000, they have two choices.

01:08:36   They could not make it because like, let's just wait for the tech to come down in price so

01:08:42   that we can get it down to that $1,000 price point.

01:08:44   Or they could make it and charge more for it and just say, here it is.

01:08:49   If you want it, it's cut, it's cost so much because it's on the cutting edge, but it's

01:08:53   super awesome.

01:08:54   That's the right decision.

01:08:56   I think if it's good and they can make it and it's up to their standards, then nobody's

01:09:03   stopping you from buying the $1,000 phone or the $700 phone.

01:09:06   But for some people, that $2,000, $1,500, whatever it is, phone, that's super awesome.

01:09:12   If it can be made at enough of a scale, Apple should make it and see.

01:09:16   And if they find out nobody wants it, then they've learned a lesson.

01:09:19   But I'm telling you, at this point, the size of the iPhone market is so huge.

01:09:23   And Apple, I mean, this is a story we started telling with the iPhone 10.

01:09:26   Apple continues to experiment about how much they can charge people for an iPhone before

01:09:30   people won't buy an iPhone.

01:09:31   And they have not yet found the top of the scale.

01:09:33   That's the bottom line.

01:09:35   I just went to Samsung's website and I've gone to their phones section and I've narrowed it

01:09:43   by phones that you can order, right?

01:09:45   Because maybe they have some stuff on there that you can just go look at.

01:09:48   And there are results of 29 phone models.

01:09:52   These aren't colors.

01:09:54   These are just distinct models of phone that they will sell you on their website right now.

01:09:59   You can go and buy one of 29 phones.

01:10:02   Apple's probably half that because they'll sell you some old models.

01:10:07   Apple's probably like nine or ten.

01:10:09   But there's room on the scale.

01:10:11   There's room.

01:10:12   And if we know anything about Tim Cook's Apple, they're going to be, I think, ruthless at exploiting

01:10:18   ways to increase their revenue.

01:10:20   And this is a great way to do it.

01:10:23   Again, if you can make a product that's expensive but cutting edge and cool, I think people, and

01:10:29   it's an iPhone, I think people will buy it.

01:10:32   And they don't all have to buy it.

01:10:33   You can just scoop the top 10 or 15% off of the Pro or Pro Max.

01:10:39   and put them up at the super high end.

01:10:41   And that will happen with the folding phone.

01:10:43   But the iPhone 20 could be a similar kind of scenario.

01:10:46   And that's fine.

01:10:47   They're happy to do that.

01:10:48   Philip Esposito at Macworld has discovered another, yet another interesting tidbit from

01:10:55   internal developer code.

01:10:56   There's been a lot of this coming out over the last few weeks.

01:10:58   A lot of chip stuff.

01:11:00   We didn't really cover too much of it.

01:11:02   But a lot of chips that we know are going to appear in devices, but finding code for that

01:11:07   happening.

01:11:07   But this time, referencing that Touch ID may be coming to the Apple Watch.

01:11:11   We are in a Touch ID renaissance here, Jason.

01:11:14   It's coming back in a big way.

01:11:16   This is an exploration for a 2026 Apple Watch.

01:11:20   It's currently in prototyping.

01:11:22   It could be either on the side button or under the screen.

01:11:26   So this would be Apple's first under the screen Touch ID if they do that.

01:11:32   This potentially suggests a bigger redesign for the Apple Watch coming next year, as well

01:11:38   as a processor bump, which Macworld has also identified.

01:11:40   So the Series 9, 10, and 11 watches, they've all had the same processor and are under the

01:11:45   same family.

01:11:46   Like Apple kind of groups them together in code.

01:11:48   The 2026 watch appears to kick off a new family identifier for the Apple Watch, suggesting

01:11:54   bigger change.

01:11:55   Big changes coming for the Apple Watch next year.

01:11:58   Next year.

01:11:59   2026.

01:11:59   Next year.

01:12:00   I still don't understand why Touch ID is on the Apple Watch.

01:12:04   No, I can't.

01:12:05   Like what?

01:12:06   Because the pin?

01:12:08   Which you don't need to put the pin in if you've got an unlocked phone, you know?

01:12:13   And once it's on your wrist, they've got some biometric there.

01:12:15   So once you unlock it.

01:12:16   So I guess, I mean, I guess it would save you if you can just touch the side of it and

01:12:20   it auto unlocks.

01:12:20   But it seems like, I don't know, it doesn't seem super necessary to me.

01:12:24   My thought is, you could do it if maybe you were going to have new features, right?

01:12:30   That the watch could, if it had a stronger biometric, maybe it could do other things.

01:12:36   I don't know what they would be, right?

01:12:37   But like, maybe that would work for you.

01:12:41   Like imagine, like, I don't know, you could use it instead of Optic ID on the Vision Pro

01:12:45   or something.

01:12:45   I don't know.

01:12:46   I'm just making stuff up.

01:12:47   I mean, it's already like, I don't have to, I don't have to authenticate.

01:12:51   Unlike with my Apple, with my iPhone, I don't have to authenticate with my Apple Watch to

01:12:55   use Apple Pay.

01:12:56   Because the fact that I've unlocked and it stayed on my wrist means I'm authenticated

01:13:00   biometrically.

01:13:01   It's so great, right?

01:13:02   Because I don't have to do any work.

01:13:03   As long as I've got the watch authenticated on my wrist, it just works.

01:13:08   So I don't understand this.

01:13:09   But yeah, it must, they must feel like it's solving a problem or enabling something.

01:13:13   Or they just don't do it, right?

01:13:16   They just, this is a thing they're trying, but who knows if they actually don't.

01:13:19   Or yeah, or, or they might've found that it's not worth it, but interesting, interesting

01:13:24   to see.

01:13:24   Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple and Google are talking about using Google Gemini to power

01:13:30   the new LLM Siri.

01:13:32   So according to Mark, Apple approached Google to ask them to build a custom model that could

01:13:39   serve as the foundation of the new Siri set to ship next year.

01:13:43   which quick side note, if we're still expecting this thing ships next year, we're not a little

01:13:49   bit late for this conversation.

01:13:52   Like, doesn't that feel a little bit late?

01:13:54   Like, by the way, could you build us the model that the whole system will run on?

01:13:59   Like maybe doesn't this have to come first?

01:14:02   Like, I feel like I'm, I'm losing the plot a little bit.

01:14:05   Not necessarily.

01:14:06   Right.

01:14:07   Cause they could be building all the hooks for this.

01:14:09   And then, I mean, like, look what they did with Xcode.

01:14:11   Like Xcode literally can use any LLM.

01:14:14   Any LLM.

01:14:17   And they've got some custom, you know, custom deal with Anthropoc.

01:14:20   So it's possible that Apple's got like their, whatever their spec is and their standard for

01:14:24   app intents and things like that.

01:14:26   And it's also possible that Google and Apple are exploring a broader relationship involving

01:14:32   AI search and stuff like that.

01:14:34   Right.

01:14:35   We know that that's probably going on because there's this question of what's going to happen

01:14:38   to standard Google search.

01:14:39   Are there other partnerships?

01:14:40   I'm sure they talk.

01:14:41   Yeah.

01:14:42   And I think it's not unreasonable that, that even Google came and said, why don't you let

01:14:48   us do this?

01:14:48   We will be better than what you've got at this.

01:14:51   And Apple, again, they're doing, so according to Mark, there are two different versions of

01:14:58   next-gen Siri that have cute code names, but it's basically like homegrown or franchised.

01:15:04   And the homegrown is Apple models.

01:15:07   And then they've got this other one that plugs into external models.

01:15:10   And I think maybe as a part of the bake-off, as a part of the comparison between these two

01:15:16   versions, I wonder if the people working on the external model were like, we should get

01:15:21   another model in here and not, you know, we've got the anthropic models here, but let's try

01:15:26   some other models.

01:15:27   You're right.

01:15:28   It does feel late on one scale.

01:15:31   But again, if the infrastructure is the same and the question is just what model powers it,

01:15:35   if Google can say, you know, we could train up a model that uses your stuff and runs on

01:15:40   private cloud compute, a version of Gemini, and we could train that up for you, and we want

01:15:48   to be your partner, let them try, right?

01:15:52   Because I don't think Apple, they're doing the bake-off.

01:15:55   I think all of us kind of agree that Apple's probably not going to be able to be the best

01:16:00   option.

01:16:01   And they need to try to work to be an acceptable default option.

01:16:06   But one, they could kick that can down the road a little bit.

01:16:12   And two, they could make it the default and say, but we also have a couple great other

01:16:18   options.

01:16:19   You could choose to use Gemini, and we work with Google to make a private version of Gemini

01:16:23   that runs on private cloud compute.

01:16:24   That's another thing you could do.

01:16:26   So, I don't know.

01:16:27   What I like about this is Apple is being really wide open to the idea of what's the best way

01:16:33   to approach this.

01:16:34   And this shows a very strong lack of the, you know, not invented here syndrome where they're

01:16:38   like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, we're going to do this ourselves.

01:16:42   So, as a reminder, Apple had reportedly had similar conversations with both OpenAI and

01:16:48   Anthropic.

01:16:49   Anthropic seemed to be the preferred partner.

01:16:53   According to Mark Gurman, Apple is still several weeks away from making a decision as to whether

01:16:59   to continue using internal models or move to a partner.

01:17:02   And apparently, Anthropic asked for too much money, which led to Apple extending this search

01:17:07   again.

01:17:08   So, that's why they seem to have gone to Google is that Anthropic were like, I think,

01:17:13   knowing their place of like, you need us really maybe more than we need you in this scenario.

01:17:20   Something that I thought was interesting to consider is Google has already made deals with Samsung

01:17:26   to do this.

01:17:27   And I think it really would be in Google's best interest to try and do a deal with Apple for

01:17:40   Gemini to power Siri, because I think that would allow Google to take a pretty huge leap in mindshare

01:17:49   for AI, because I think Gemini is forgotten about a lot.

01:17:53   I think people think of Google's AI as the Google search preview thing, the AI overview, which is

01:18:02   generally quite bad.

01:18:03   I was thinking about this recently.

01:18:05   My assumption is because that has to load really quickly, like the model is not very good, because

01:18:11   like, for you to want to read that, it has to be as basically as fast as a Google search.

01:18:17   That was just a thought that I had, because like, that is not a good system.

01:18:20   Like, that gets stuff wrong way more than any other AI model that I have used.

01:18:25   Like, any chatbot that I have used has a much better success rate.

01:18:30   And it would also suggest, why does Google have also an AI mode if AI overview exists?

01:18:35   And my expectation is that AI overview is a very small model, because it has to operate quickly.

01:18:40   So, I think for Google to be able to say, we power AI on Samsung phones and the iPhone is

01:18:49   a pretty big move, right?

01:18:52   If they got the opportunity to promote that, that feels like a big deal, right?

01:18:59   And Apple running it on its servers allows it to say, also, it's, you know, by default,

01:19:05   this is private, which is also really interesting.

01:19:08   It would be the same as the way the open AI thing works, would be my expectation.

01:19:10   Also, well, I mean, open AI doesn't run on private cloud compute.

01:19:14   That runs on open AI.

01:19:16   My expectation would be that you could opt in with a login to have it just go to Google.

01:19:22   Go full Gemini, right?

01:19:24   But that is, and I think that's part of the question here.

01:19:26   The cost of data centers is interesting, too.

01:19:31   If they're using Apple's data centers, that reduces the cost for Google, right?

01:19:34   Google's not paying per query of the stuff that runs through private cloud compute.

01:19:37   And I do wonder if, in the long run, what Apple's going to do here is instead of it being like,

01:19:42   Siri is a widget, it's going to be, Siri is a feature that can use different data sources,

01:19:48   like the open AI stuff is now, where you could say, you know, Siri, it can be used,

01:19:55   you can use this with Gemini.

01:19:57   If you log in with your Google account, it'll use the full power of Google's cloud infrastructure.

01:20:02   And that would be a way for them to go is to say, look, if you've got an account,

01:20:06   if you're paying Anthropic or open AI or Google, this will all just go, we've worked with them,

01:20:13   and this will all go through their servers.

01:20:15   But if not, we've got a private version of Gemini, and we've got Apple's model or whatever,

01:20:21   and you can run that.

01:20:22   I think that what Apple's primary goal here is they want something that they can give away

01:20:26   to their users, right, that's good, that does not require you to log in.

01:20:30   And that's what they've got with open AI already with ChatGPT.

01:20:34   But I think it's interesting.

01:20:36   I think you're right.

01:20:37   I think Gemini sometimes gets lost because it's just Google, not an exciting AI company,

01:20:42   but it's just Google.

01:20:43   And that's not really fair, but I think that's just sort of how it is.

01:20:46   And you know what?

01:20:48   The search relationship is currently in danger, I would say.

01:20:54   But it's a great example where even though Google and Apple are competitors when it comes

01:20:59   to Android versus iOS, they are also partners in lots of stuff.

01:21:04   And Google writes them a big check every year, and they work together when it makes sense.

01:21:10   And I wonder what regulators and courts might say about Apple and Google joining forces so

01:21:18   that the default AI model used on all phones is Google's.

01:21:23   But that doesn't have to be their concern right now, especially when this is a desperate time

01:21:29   for Apple.

01:21:29   I saw a great post on Blue Sky from Casey Newton who said, if a judge forces Google to

01:21:34   stop paying Apple $20 billion a year for default search placement, but Google then powers next

01:21:39   generation search anyway, except this time Apple pays Google, then Sundar will be having a very

01:21:44   good year.

01:21:45   Because let's be real, like, don't get it twisted.

01:21:48   In this scenario, Apple is paying Google.

01:21:52   No, well, unless Apple is funding its AI use through the credits that it's getting for

01:22:00   Well, sure.

01:22:00   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:22:01   It's search.

01:22:01   Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:22:02   Right?

01:22:02   Like, what if it ends up being, well, Google's not paying Apple money anymore.

01:22:06   Google's just giving them several billion dollars in AI credit every year.

01:22:10   Well, thanks.

01:22:11   Great.

01:22:11   Like, I mean, they can do that.

01:22:13   Yes, I get the point.

01:22:15   But as in, like, Google's not saying, we're going to keep giving you more money for this.

01:22:20   Like, this does not replace that if it goes away.

01:22:22   And this doesn't get Google what it wants, right?

01:22:26   It doesn't actually solve the, we want all that traffic from your web browser, too, right?

01:22:32   Like, there is a thing that Google wants.

01:22:35   Google's not paying Apple for fun.

01:22:36   Google's paying Apple for value.

01:22:38   And if that relationship has to change, that's not necessarily great for Google, even if they

01:22:44   get this other relationship.

01:22:45   But yeah, anyway, they're frenemies.

01:22:49   I think there's an argument to be made that, yeah, they're competitors, but they've also

01:22:53   carved up the entire smartphone world.

01:22:55   So, you know, good to be them.

01:22:59   This episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN.

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01:24:53   It's time for some summer Ask Upgrade questions.

01:25:00   Oh, no.

01:25:04   Oh, no.

01:25:06   Did the lasers get the birds?

01:25:08   Oh, they did.

01:25:09   That's so sad.

01:25:10   That's so sad.

01:25:12   The lasers got the birds.

01:25:13   No, the birds are flying by.

01:25:15   The lasers are there.

01:25:16   The birds are not being targeted.

01:25:18   I don't know.

01:25:18   It kind of sounded like one of the birds got hit by a laser.

01:25:21   Jason, can I tell you a gross story?

01:25:23   Can I tell you a gross story?

01:25:24   Oh, yes.

01:25:26   If you don't want to hear a gross story, I don't know, skip forward 30 seconds or whatever.

01:25:31   There's a park near my studio where there's often a lot of pigeons.

01:25:36   And on maybe five or six occasions now, I've seen a seagull eating a pigeon.

01:25:40   Yeah.

01:25:42   Bird world is harsh.

01:25:44   Seagulls are like, I just didn't think that happened.

01:25:47   I didn't think the birds ate birds.

01:25:49   Oh, so at UC Berkeley, the tall tower in the middle of campus is the Campanile.

01:25:56   And they have webcams up there because peregrine falcons nest up there, the cow falcons.

01:26:02   And what you learn when you start to learn about peregrine falcons is what do they eat?

01:26:09   What do they bring back for their babies in the nest?

01:26:11   Other birds is the answer.

01:26:12   I just didn't think about that.

01:26:13   Because they're super fast, so they're like flying high and then they dive down and they

01:26:16   grab a bird and they tear it apart and take it back up and feed it to their baby.

01:26:20   And there's two things I find fascinating about this.

01:26:23   One is it's usually happening and there's other pigeons around.

01:26:25   And I'm like, what is wrong with you?

01:26:27   Leave.

01:26:27   Why are you here?

01:26:29   You need to leave.

01:26:29   No, they've never been safer.

01:26:30   They've never been safer.

01:26:31   And the other thing is, this is a quite well-trafficked park.

01:26:34   It's got like a footpath that goes through it.

01:26:36   And I always love to see how people react when they see this.

01:26:39   Because some people find it funny.

01:26:42   Some people are horrified.

01:26:43   It's always fun to see.

01:26:45   It happens a lot.

01:26:46   Sure.

01:26:46   When I was walking through this park a couple of weeks ago, I looked up to a building and

01:26:49   I saw a seagull sitting on top of the building.

01:26:51   I'm like, oh, that's where it waits for the pigeons to appear.

01:26:55   Sorry if we spoke about that question, this is about longer than your 30 seconds skip.

01:27:00   Real Rorschach test there.

01:27:01   Rough.

01:27:02   Anyway, first question in Summer Ask Upgrade.

01:27:05   Summer of fun!

01:27:06   Summer of fun comes from Ben, who says, if you could make one device waterproof, what would

01:27:13   you choose?

01:27:14   I'm going to start off with an iPad mini.

01:27:20   I would love to make an iPad mini fully waterproof.

01:27:24   Yeah.

01:27:25   And this would be helpful for the bath, like bath time, as well as pool time.

01:27:31   Yeah.

01:27:32   Jambo Harv has got a great suggestion of AirPods.

01:27:35   That would also be a good one.

01:27:37   Sure.

01:27:38   That is a good one.

01:27:40   I mean, it is.

01:27:41   It's something that you would get splashed or put in the bath or put at the pool.

01:27:47   Yep.

01:27:47   AirPods is a good one.

01:27:49   They've made so many of them waterproof now, though.

01:27:52   AirPods would be really difficult.

01:27:53   I don't know if you've ever, like, if you've ever had wet hands and paused your AirPods and

01:27:58   accidentally touched the wrong part.

01:27:59   And then it just, all the sound goes really weird.

01:28:02   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:28:03   Yeah, for sure.

01:28:03   I guess I was, I was thinking for the Kindle, but they did that, didn't they?

01:28:07   Yeah.

01:28:07   They're all, they're all pretty much waterproof now.

01:28:09   I'm going to say, I'm going to go with a weird choice here, which is, I'm going to say the

01:28:14   iPhone.

01:28:15   Because while the iPhone has these water resistance ratings, if you put your iPhone in a pool and

01:28:21   it gets past the seals and it kills your phone, you have to pay for it.

01:28:25   Because it's not covered by Apple.

01:28:29   Apple says it's water resistant, but if it breaks, this is the lesson that Serenity Caldwell learned

01:28:35   like a decade ago when she jumped in a swimming pool with her iPhone and it died.

01:28:39   She's like, but it says it's water resistant.

01:28:41   And Apple's like, well, yeah, but we're not replacing for water damage.

01:28:44   So what I would say is I'd love an iPhone that Apple guarantees is not going to get water

01:28:51   damaged.

01:28:51   Stand by it.

01:28:52   Yeah.

01:28:52   At least, right?

01:28:53   Yeah.

01:28:53   I want it to be that good.

01:28:55   I want it to be that good that I can, because the difference there is then if I've got, I'm

01:29:02   going in the swimming pool and my iPhone's in my pocket, I don't think about it.

01:29:05   I just go in the swimming pool.

01:29:06   Or if you want to take your iPhone in the shower to listen to a podcast, you don't even need

01:29:09   to consider, you don't need to think about where you put it.

01:29:11   You just bring it in.

01:29:12   Right.

01:29:14   I mean, getting water splashed on it is not the same as submerging it.

01:29:17   And I have brought my iPhone into the shower before.

01:29:20   Oh, I do.

01:29:20   When I'm on vacation, I always do it.

01:29:22   But you don't have to worry about it and being completely submerged.

01:29:27   That's what I'd like.

01:29:30   I'd like Apple to do that.

01:29:31   I don't think they ever will, but that's what I would choose.

01:29:33   I listen to so much of the rest of the history in the shower in LA.

01:29:37   I just listen to so much.

01:29:39   Yeah.

01:29:40   When I'm on vacation, I shower multiple times a day.

01:29:44   It's like a little treat I give myself for some reason.

01:29:47   Okay.

01:29:47   And especially if it's a nice shower.

01:29:49   Yeah.

01:29:50   I listened to a lot about the assassination of JFK in a shower in Los Angeles.

01:29:54   In a shower in Los Angeles.

01:29:54   Yeah.

01:29:55   That's great.

01:29:55   Good times.

01:29:56   That's great.

01:29:56   Good times.

01:29:56   I try when I've got room to bring a Bluetooth speaker.

01:30:00   That's my shower speaker with me now because that's really a nice, but sometimes I forget

01:30:05   or there's no room.

01:30:06   And then I have to try to find a place to put it where the speakers will like fire off the

01:30:12   side of the shower back to me to like magnify it a little bit.

01:30:16   Yep.

01:30:16   Yep.

01:30:17   Yeah.

01:30:17   Get the bouncing going on.

01:30:19   Yeah.

01:30:19   Get like a little soap dish or off a window or something like that.

01:30:22   That can help.

01:30:23   Yeah.

01:30:23   Zoe says in a discord, I can't understand wanting to listen to stuff while I'm in the

01:30:26   shower.

01:30:27   That's thought time for me.

01:30:28   Zoe, that's why.

01:30:29   Yeah.

01:30:31   Get the thoughts out.

01:30:32   I don't want to be with my thoughts.

01:30:34   I don't want my thoughts.

01:30:34   I don't want to be alone with my thoughts.

01:30:36   My podcasters.

01:30:37   They're my thoughts sometimes.

01:30:37   I want podcasters.

01:30:38   Yes.

01:30:39   That's what I'm looking for.

01:30:41   That's what I'm looking for.

01:30:41   Yes.

01:30:41   If I need, look, if I am struggling with like writing an article or something and I'm taking

01:30:47   a shower, I will sometimes shower in silence and allow the thoughts to creep in.

01:30:51   Yeah.

01:30:52   Like if I'm, if I'm working on a particular hard problem, I will do that.

01:30:57   Like I will take a shower and, and, and it was like.

01:30:59   Or take a walk.

01:31:00   Swimming is really the best for me, but I can't always do that.

01:31:05   It's like not necessarily available all the time, but that also helps.

01:31:10   But this is, but, and I think this is a good point is that, is that there are times when

01:31:14   you want that and times when you don't.

01:31:15   I will say as a person who listens to podcasts, uh, who doesn't have a commute.

01:31:20   Also, some of it is I need that time.

01:31:22   Like I need that time to catch up on my podcasts because I've got, you know, doing the dishes,

01:31:28   uh, walking the dog and taking showers are like the only times I can listen to podcasts most

01:31:33   of the time.

01:31:34   And so I try to get it in there, but yes, it is all, it can be good thinking time, but

01:31:38   you know, sometimes I'm traveling, especially I'm in a weird hotel.

01:31:42   I'm like, I got to get up now.

01:31:44   I got a bunch of stuff.

01:31:44   I got to see a bunch of people, all of that.

01:31:47   It is a real comfort to have the familiar voices of my favorite podcasts in the shower

01:31:51   instead of it just being me alone with my thoughts on, you know, maybe jet lagged, maybe

01:31:57   stressed out about travel.

01:31:58   It's a real nice treat to have that, uh, especially that shower speaker with me.

01:32:03   Or if you need to be distracted from the horrors of the seagulls.

01:32:06   It's good to have your favorite podcast.

01:32:08   Yeah.

01:32:09   It's good.

01:32:09   Good addition to the list.

01:32:10   Yep.

01:32:11   Darren wants to know what is your best end of summer ritual to close the season outright?

01:32:16   Hmm.

01:32:17   Well, for me, it's the iPhone draft.

01:32:19   Sure.

01:32:19   That's the end of summer is the iPhone draft.

01:32:22   That is in a way.

01:32:23   So, I mean, the weird thing about being in the Bay Area is that our best weather is in September

01:32:27   and October.

01:32:28   I'm not kidding.

01:32:30   It is our best weather.

01:32:31   It is our warm, beautiful fall summer that actually comes at the end of summer.

01:32:37   I love it.

01:32:38   And so, I guess for me, I try to, you know, we try to make some

01:32:46   some stuff like the grilled stuff, uh, steak or, or something like that.

01:32:52   I used the, I used the pellet grill this weekend on a tri-tip.

01:32:56   I smoked a tri-tip.

01:32:57   It was beautiful.

01:32:58   Tasted great.

01:32:59   Um, I like to do some of that.

01:33:01   And especially if it's a warm evening, cause the evenings cool off really fast here to do

01:33:05   that and have dinner outside.

01:33:06   So really my goal between now and when my son goes back to college in mid-September is to

01:33:13   have a really nice night where we can have a really nice meal, maybe with some corn.

01:33:16   Um, you know, maybe just a really nice meal summary sitting outside at our table.

01:33:22   That's on the patio because mostly we don't eat out there.

01:33:25   I think we've only eaten out there a couple of times this summer, but like if it's a really

01:33:29   warm night, uh, and the house is hot, like it's nice to go out there and, and be, uh,

01:33:35   eaten outside.

01:33:36   So that, that's a ritual I would say that I, that I try to do.

01:33:39   The worst end of summer ritual is when I take the hammock down, uh, take the cushions off

01:33:45   of the furniture and it's the, you know, keep everything out of the rain because the summer

01:33:49   has come to an end because in California it doesn't rain in the summertime.

01:33:53   So when the rain gets in the forecast, I got to pull all the stuff out because the rain

01:33:58   is coming.

01:33:59   I do have a kind of like a beginning of autumn ritual, which is when I go back.

01:34:05   to wearing my robe at home.

01:34:06   Oh, that's one that I enjoy very much.

01:34:09   Very much.

01:34:10   That's nice.

01:34:10   There is, I, I have, I don't enjoy it as much, but I do have that ritual where I have to plug

01:34:15   in the heater out here and set up the automations and stuff so that, because it's too cold to

01:34:22   come in here and work in the morning, uh, which will come in November, probably October.

01:34:27   Like I said, it's pretty reasonable and our house has a lot of carryover.

01:34:30   So if it's a nice day, the next morning, it'll be pretty nice out here in the garage,

01:34:34   but there comes a time when it doesn't get that warm during the day and then it's cold

01:34:39   overnight and it's really cold out here.

01:34:40   So on those days, I'm going to, then I have that moment where I'm like, oh, I gotta, I gotta

01:34:45   turn on the heater now.

01:34:46   And, uh, that's a time, you know, that's at the passing of time.

01:34:50   It just happens.

01:34:51   Sad.

01:34:52   Lee asks, how do you feel about phone cases these days?

01:34:55   You just use one in the summer.

01:34:57   Do you not use one at all?

01:34:59   I'm generally a caseless person.

01:35:01   Yeah.

01:35:01   I don't drop my phone that often.

01:35:03   I'm willing to take the risks.

01:35:04   Um, you know, if I, if I drop it and I get some cracks, then I'll put a case on it for

01:35:11   the rest of the time until I get a new phone probably.

01:35:14   And if it shatters, I'll get a new phone.

01:35:16   But I generally, that doesn't really happen to me.

01:35:19   And so I, I, I, I don't like the, you know, I prefer, I prefer not to, but I mean, I've

01:35:27   got a case around if I want to put my phone in it, but I prefer not to.

01:35:30   I love having no case on my iPhone.

01:35:32   And also iPhones are so strong now.

01:35:34   Like I dropped my iPhone relatively frequently.

01:35:37   Like our downstairs area is essentially just concrete.

01:35:40   My phone survives.

01:35:42   Like it, it really is incredible how strong the glass is now, like the work that they have

01:35:48   done over the last 10 years or whatever to strengthen these things.

01:35:52   I dropped my phone often enough in ways that would have absolutely obliterated older iPhones

01:36:01   and they're just, it's absolutely fine.

01:36:04   So, but I also just much prefer the iPhone without a case on it.

01:36:07   And, uh, so I like it.

01:36:09   And I, I do get, begrudgingly get Apple care now because I just figured I have a higher chance

01:36:15   of a phone breaking with a young child around, um, like kick it, throwing it out of my hand

01:36:20   and like, like knocking it away, but she has done that, that kind of stuff or whatever.

01:36:24   If I need to be sending a message or something.

01:36:26   So I do have it begrudgingly.

01:36:28   Um, and Jacob asks, Jason, were you in Australia this weekend?

01:36:32   I swear I saw you walking into a grocery store.

01:36:35   I called out Jason, but got no response.

01:36:37   If not, when you next visit, what parts of Australia interest you as a holiday maker?

01:36:42   This is one of the most unhinged ask upgrade questions we've ever received.

01:36:46   I love how it just transitions into just another question.

01:36:49   Yeah.

01:36:49   And it's from Australia, which means that this is a special summer ask upgrade from the

01:36:54   winter of fun.

01:36:55   Yeah.

01:36:56   Yeah.

01:36:56   We've got a couple of questions because I asked on, on social media for, for questions for this,

01:37:01   for, to call that and summer fun.

01:37:03   Got a few, uh, people wanting us to do, um, summer of fun question, the summer of fun episodes

01:37:09   in the winter for the, for the Southern Hemisphere.

01:37:11   Shout out to Southern Hemisphere who have to endure our summer of fun.

01:37:15   So in, uh, so just to be clear, I've never been in Australia.

01:37:19   Right.

01:37:20   Closest I've been is New Zealand.

01:37:22   I have been to New Zealand.

01:37:23   I have not been to Australia.

01:37:24   Sorry.

01:37:24   They probably don't like you saying that, right?

01:37:26   I know.

01:37:27   No, there's a real rivalry between those two countries.

01:37:29   Did you know that the Australian constitution, when it was formed in like 1902 or whenever,

01:37:34   included New Zealand as one of the states of Australia?

01:37:37   I didn't know that.

01:37:39   How do you think people from New Zealand feel about that, Jason?

01:37:41   Well, they voted and say, they said, no, thank you.

01:37:45   And so New Zealand is its own country, but it actually was in the, the, the incorporation

01:37:49   of Australia as a country.

01:37:50   They were like, yeah, and also New Zealand and New Zealand's like, nope, nope, nope.

01:37:53   Pass.

01:37:53   Anyway, I would love to go to Australia.

01:37:55   I think the plan is to go in 2028 because there's going to be an eclipse in 2028 that

01:38:02   will go across Australia and New Zealand, total eclipse.

01:38:05   And that might be a fun opportunity to go to Australia.

01:38:08   That's in July, I think.

01:38:12   So in the winter in Australia, which might be fine.

01:38:15   That might actually be not a bad time to go to Australia.

01:38:17   Although we went to New Zealand in high summer in New Zealand, which was good because they

01:38:22   were having a cold snap and it was actually quite cold, even though it was summertime.

01:38:27   But that's New Zealand for you.

01:38:29   What, when I next visit will be the first time, what parts would I be interested in?

01:38:34   Well, this is the challenge with Australia is it's a whole continent.

01:38:37   It's a big country.

01:38:38   And, and it's like saying, well, you're going to go to the United States for the first time.

01:38:45   Where are you going to go?

01:38:46   And it's like, it's such a huge place.

01:38:47   How do you even start with that?

01:38:50   New York and Los Angeles.

01:38:51   Yeah.

01:38:52   That's where I'm going to go.

01:38:53   Yeah.

01:38:54   Yeah.

01:38:55   We'll get to New York and then how long is it to drive to Los Angeles?

01:38:57   Oh, buddy.

01:38:58   Surely it's not that long.

01:38:59   It's one country.

01:39:00   So that makes it intimidating.

01:39:04   I would imagine we would have to spend, I mean, we spent two weeks in New Zealand and

01:39:07   New Zealand is relatively tiny.

01:39:08   So I don't know where we would go.

01:39:11   I would, I, Sydney seems obvious.

01:39:14   Adelaide is apparently nice.

01:39:17   Melbourne is very nice.

01:39:19   Apparently I've heard great things about Perth, but it's all the way on the other side of

01:39:23   the continent.

01:39:23   So there, there, there's some challenges in getting there.

01:39:25   My understanding is Perth is a lot like San Francisco, actually, in terms of climate and

01:39:29   other things.

01:39:29   And, and there's a guy I know who lives in, in Brisbane or just North, or as he calls it

01:39:36   Brisbane land.

01:39:36   And that's the warm part.

01:39:38   That's the gold coast.

01:39:39   That's like where the beaches and stuff are.

01:39:40   And that actually sounds kind of cool too.

01:39:42   So I don't know.

01:39:43   I don't know.

01:39:45   But I would love to go in 2028 as my target for, for Austria.

01:39:49   I would love to do that.

01:39:49   I would also love to go to Australia.

01:39:51   Yeah.

01:39:52   We were maybe going to go a couple of years ago, but we just couldn't get it together.

01:39:54   It was very disappointing.

01:39:55   But I would like to go one day.

01:39:57   It's a long way to go.

01:39:58   It's a long way to go.

01:39:59   It's a long way to go.

01:39:59   It's a long way to go.

01:40:00   I said this before.

01:40:00   My friend, my friend Simon, his wife, Julie, they live in North London and she's from New

01:40:07   Zealand and they go back to see her family.

01:40:09   It's so far.

01:40:12   I think there is now a direct from London to Australia.

01:40:15   It's like 165 hours.

01:40:17   But it is the longest route in commercial aviation.

01:40:20   Yeah.

01:40:20   When Simon and Julie and their daughter go.

01:40:24   I wouldn't want to do that all in once.

01:40:26   So what they do, Mike, is they go, they, sometimes they come to America.

01:40:31   Whoa.

01:40:34   And then they, and then they go to New Zealand.

01:40:35   So they get some days in San Francisco or something.

01:40:39   And then they go to New Zealand from there.

01:40:40   And sometimes they go to Singapore.

01:40:42   Yeah.

01:40:43   And then they spend a day in Singapore at a hotel that's got a pool and they just hang

01:40:47   out in the, in the warm Singapore weather and play in the pool with their daughter.

01:40:51   And then the next day they fly the rest of the way.

01:40:53   And, and I thought on one level that's costing you time on another level.

01:40:58   Oh, that's such a long flight.

01:40:59   And maybe it's, and they've really enjoyed the Singapore, the old Singapore.

01:41:04   Singapore stopover.

01:41:04   So yeah, real, real far for you to get to Australia.

01:41:07   But I hope you, I hope you make it someday.

01:41:10   I guess we should say there was a time when they were flying like podcasters around the

01:41:16   world to do things or conferences and all of that.

01:41:19   I miss that time.

01:41:20   And I feel like that area, yeah, there are a bunch of people we know who've been to

01:41:23   New Zealand because they went to Webstock and they never, I think never went outside the

01:41:27   hotel basically, which is shameful.

01:41:29   Um, but yeah, if there's some amazing, uh, people who want us to do upgrade live from

01:41:34   Australia, I guess get in touch, but probably we'll visit individually.

01:41:37   Uh, and the eclipse might be my time for that.

01:41:41   Yeah.

01:41:41   Australians come on, get us out.

01:41:43   Yeah.

01:41:44   Get us out there.

01:41:44   I want to, um, when in Sydney, I want to time it if I can for a performance of the dragon

01:41:51   friends, assuming that that podcast is still performing monthly in Sydney.

01:41:55   I would love to see that live.

01:41:56   That would be a blast, but regardless, I'm looking forward to going to Australia.

01:41:59   It's always been a dream.

01:42:00   We did.

01:42:01   We knocked New Zealand off first, but, uh, your time is going to come Australia.

01:42:05   I promise.

01:42:06   This episode is brought to you by HelloFresh.

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01:44:08   Hello.

01:44:09   Neil asks, you arrive at the airport for a weekend break and realize you don't have your AirPods with you.

01:44:17   You're facing a flight and two days without your favorite podcasts.

01:44:21   Do you, A, buy a new pair of AirPods at the airport, B, buy a cheaper pair of Bluetooth headphones, or C, resolve to read more instead and learn for the next time?

01:44:32   Hmm, what do you think?

01:44:35   I would buy them at the airport.

01:44:39   I think I would buy them at the airport and resolve to read more instead.

01:44:47   Instead, I read, but I read with music playing in my ears and noise cancellation turned on.

01:44:51   My rationale is that I've got family members.

01:44:55   Jamie washed her AirPods, and I think she's still not bought new ones.

01:45:02   And so what I would think is I can use these and then I can hand them down or hand my existing ones down.

01:45:08   So that's probably what I would do.

01:45:12   Yeah, that's probably, I've got places I can put them.

01:45:14   I would just give them to my wife.

01:45:16   This is the thing about my wife.

01:45:18   She has just three pairs of AirPods that she uses.

01:45:22   Okay.

01:45:24   I don't remember how we got to two, but I know that we got to three because I ordered some AirPods Pro, yeah, the original AirPods Pro, and they ended up, I got them with an engraving on them, and they ended up getting lost in the mail, and I then got a replacement pair, and then the original pair arrived.

01:45:42   Oh, boy.

01:45:43   So that made the third pair.

01:45:44   So I would just give her, so she has a fourth pair.

01:45:49   That's what I would do.

01:45:50   But yeah, I...

01:45:52   Luxurious.

01:45:52   I couldn't live without AirPods, no.

01:45:56   Like, if I want them, you know, like if I'm somewhere where I'm going to use them, I need them.

01:46:02   Yes.

01:46:03   It is incredibly important to me.

01:46:05   It's like if I forgot my iPhone, right, I would have to buy a new iPhone.

01:46:09   I recently, last week, took my mom back.

01:46:13   She was visiting us, took my mom back to Phoenix, and she doesn't want to fly by herself, which there's a lot.

01:46:19   If you're not a frequent flyer, it's overwhelming, all the stuff you need to know and do.

01:46:24   So when I picked her up, I went down there, and she lives very far outside of Phoenix, and so people drove me down.

01:46:31   We have people that can take you, so you don't have to rent a car or anything.

01:46:35   And then she and I came back the next day to the airport.

01:46:38   But going back, the lady who drives us said, I can just get her at the airport.

01:46:44   And I said, great.

01:46:45   Great suggestion.

01:46:46   So I spent last Thursday flying to and from Phoenix.

01:46:52   I literally dropped my mom off, said goodbye, went back through security, and then stood at the – and went right back home.

01:46:58   It's amazing.

01:46:59   What a weird day.

01:47:00   You're a good son.

01:47:01   But I had this like, what do I need to bring with me?

01:47:04   And the answer was, I need an e-reader.

01:47:06   I need a pair – I need AirPods.

01:47:09   And I actually brought my iPad, figuring I could do a little bit of work maybe.

01:47:13   It turns out I did very little work.

01:47:15   I used it briefly.

01:47:16   In hindsight, I could have just brought the e-reader and the AirPods, and I would have been fine.

01:47:23   But yeah, so AirPods, they are important.

01:47:27   Andrew has three vacation questions for us.

01:47:30   Great.

01:47:31   Let's do it.

01:47:32   This is for both of us.

01:47:33   What was your favorite summer vacation as a kid?

01:47:35   We didn't take a regular summer vacation as a kid.

01:47:39   We went a couple of years to Lair of the Bear, which is the UC Berkeley family camp that's up in Pinecrest,

01:47:44   which is actually not that far from our house, so it wasn't that much of a change of pace.

01:47:48   But it's up in the National Forest, up in the mountains.

01:47:50   It's actually near where the ski resort is in the winter.

01:47:52   And I enjoyed that.

01:47:55   I was really little.

01:47:56   And then my parents obviously didn't love it because they didn't go back after we did, I think, two years.

01:48:03   And it's too bad because I actually did love it, and it's a great place for kids.

01:48:05   We did that then with our kids for about four years.

01:48:09   And it was nice, and the kids loved it.

01:48:12   And I'm a little bit sorry that it just sort of ended up not working out, and we stopped going.

01:48:16   The big problem was we didn't know any of the people there.

01:48:19   I think it would really be different if you could go with a couple other families you knew.

01:48:22   And we got to know the people there a bit, but it's not the same as going with your friends.

01:48:27   They were like your Lair friends.

01:48:29   Anyway, I did enjoy that as a kid, and they taught me how to swim while I was there.

01:48:35   So I've got a fond memory of that.

01:48:36   But we didn't do like a traditional – look, we lived in California.

01:48:39   It was hot and nice, and we had a swimming pool, and so it was fun.

01:48:45   So I don't have any like memorable regular vacations.

01:48:50   I did a couple of times go visit my grandmother in Pennsylvania once for myself for a week before my mom flew out.

01:48:59   And that was fun.

01:49:00   They had tennis courts at her apartment complex, so like I learned to play tennis.

01:49:04   And to this day, there is a plant that grows in other parts of the country that does not grow in California.

01:49:10   And I don't know what plant it is, but I will go somewhere, and I will smell that plant,

01:49:14   and I am taken back to my grandmother's apartment in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, in Dublin, Pennsylvania,

01:49:21   because that's the smell of visiting my grandma at her apartment in Pennsylvania.

01:49:27   So that's what I got.

01:49:29   What do you have?

01:49:29   We also didn't really take like traditional vacations, or we didn't take one every year.

01:49:36   But we used to do – when I was much younger, we used to do like somewhat regular, maybe every couple of years,

01:49:44   kind of like British seaside town kind of things.

01:49:48   We did a lot of like – it's weird, really – like caravan holidays where you didn't bring the caravan.

01:50:00   Like you went to like a place, and everybody stayed in these really large trailer caravan kind of things.

01:50:08   Yeah, yeah.

01:50:08   But they were all just stationary, and you just hired one?

01:50:11   Yeah.

01:50:12   And there was just like rows and rows and rows of these things.

01:50:14   Yeah.

01:50:15   We used to do a lot of those.

01:50:16   I like those trips because they were just very slow, and it wasn't really much happening.

01:50:19   They would be like you go play bingo or go to like the – we called them the amusements, but it was like an arcade, right?

01:50:25   And then there would be like restaurant and a bar, and there would be entertainment every night.

01:50:29   And they were just very – they're just like traditional family holiday kind of stuff.

01:50:35   I want to do those – I want to do similar things with Sophia.

01:50:39   I think that would be lovely.

01:50:40   We have a thing in the UK called Center Parks, which is a bit kind of like outdoorsy and adventure-y, and I want to do stuff like that with her.

01:50:46   Okay.

01:50:48   Now, there's a question for you, which was what was the best place you took your kids on a summer vacation?

01:50:54   I have two answers here.

01:50:55   One is we did a bunch of cruises for Macworld back in the day when my kids were little.

01:51:01   That's that – you know, that's the thing of like you saying about people taking you to – you know, asking us to go to, I don't know, New Zealand or whatever.

01:51:09   You used to do the Macworld cruises, so you know, you got something.

01:51:12   And that wasn't time off.

01:51:14   That was vacation time.

01:51:17   So I was – I mean, no, but I'm saying I was working on the ship, but I didn't – like I would go for a week and not take the time off.

01:51:26   So I still had vacation time to spend on top of it, which is what a scam that was.

01:51:29   That was great.

01:51:30   But it was real work.

01:51:32   Anyway, we – and my cruise was paid for, but my family's cruise was not.

01:51:37   So we did pay for that too.

01:51:40   Anyway, well, I mean, it was – we got the discount rate, but it wasn't – it wasn't nothing.

01:51:45   We went to the Baltic for a cruise, and that was – that was the – that's the cruise I recommend to people who have not taken a cruise.

01:51:53   It's the only cruise I would do again, really, I think, in the world is that one.

01:51:57   But that was amazing because it was Copenhagen, Helsinki, Stockholm, St. Petersburg, and then north coast of Germany, and also Gotland out in the middle of the Baltic, the little Swedish island that's out there.

01:52:11   And it was spectacular, and it was like a little sample.

01:52:13   We'd never been to that part of the world before, so it was a little sampler of all these amazing things around the Baltic Sea.

01:52:19   And it's high summer.

01:52:22   We celebrated the 4th of July as the cruise ship left St. Petersburg, Russia.

01:52:27   We had little American flags.

01:52:29   They had a little 4th of July thing on the ship as we were sailing out of St. Petersburg, and to be in Russia on the 4th of July was amazing.

01:52:37   We have a picture of us with the little American flags in Russia on a boat.

01:52:42   And the kids – Julian was just a baby, but Jamie had a fun time, and that was awesome.

01:52:48   It was truly a beautiful time of year.

01:52:50   Oh, and the sun never – the sun went down, but, like, it's that super north latitude thing where the sun, like – you're like, oh, the sun's about to set.

01:52:57   And then you realize the sun's mostly going sideways, and it takes, like, hours, and the sunset lasts forever.

01:53:03   And it really is just barely under the horizon at 2 a.m. or whatever, and then it comes – just amazing.

01:53:09   The weather was perfect, never got rained on, it was clear, just never going to be replicated, and a great place with us and our kids.

01:53:16   And then, secondarily, I will say we used to have a, every year, Camp Grandma and Grandpa, where Lauren's parents would take our children for a week.

01:53:28   And we left them there, and we went and had no children for a week, which was a nice vacation for all.

01:53:36   Because, although it leads to a very weird thing where we'll be – the whole family will be somewhere, and I'll say, oh, I've always wanted to go somewhere.

01:53:44   And my kids will be like, we went there.

01:53:46   I'm like, how did you go there if I haven't been there?

01:53:49   And the answer is, Grandma and Grandpa took us there.

01:53:51   And they took them – they're like, when did you go to Legoland?

01:53:54   When did you go to the Wild Animal Park?

01:53:56   When did you go to Manzanar?

01:53:57   And they're like, oh, yeah, Death Valley, we did that.

01:54:00   Grandma and Grandpa.

01:54:01   It's like, oh, Grandma and Grandpa again.

01:54:03   So, they loved that, and I loved that they got that experience with their grandparents, that they will always remember spending a lot of quality time with their grandparents in a way that, like I said, I had my, you know, couple childhood visits to my grandmother in her apartment in Pennsylvania, but that was about it.

01:54:19   So, it's great that they got to experience that.

01:54:21   And Andrew asks me, Mike, where do you hope to someday take your kid for a summer vacation?

01:54:27   Disneyland, baby.

01:54:29   Yeah, baby.

01:54:29   The real one.

01:54:30   I mean, we're going to take it to Disneyland Paris probably quite a few times over our life because it's just a train journey.

01:54:35   But I mean, the real deal.

01:54:37   The real deal.

01:54:38   Yeah.

01:54:40   I don't want to hear – Casey's going to tell you all about Orlando.

01:54:43   And I want to go to Disney World one day.

01:54:46   Sure.

01:54:46   But I want to go to Disneyland more.

01:54:49   Because that's what I like, you know?

01:54:51   Like, I don't know if I'm going to like Disney World.

01:54:52   I don't know.

01:54:53   I don't know.

01:54:54   I don't know.

01:54:55   You have a love of things in LA, so that helps.

01:54:58   I sure do.

01:54:59   Steve asks, are there any particular songs, albums, or artists that scream summer to you?

01:55:04   Go ahead, Mike.

01:55:05   Do it.

01:55:06   They're Beach Boys, baby.

01:55:07   Let's go.

01:55:08   That's the number one.

01:55:09   Number one pick.

01:55:10   That's the number one pick.

01:55:11   Do you have any?

01:55:12   I don't really, no.

01:55:15   Fair enough.

01:55:15   And Lee asks, Mike, what is your favorite non-smart watch?

01:55:19   I'm going to use this as an opportunity to shout out a British brand that I like called

01:55:23   Farer.

01:55:24   F-A-R-E-R.

01:55:26   They have watches kind of across a price spectrum.

01:55:30   It starts high, obviously, because that is what nice watches cost.

01:55:34   But this is a smaller brand, a British brand.

01:55:37   I particularly love, I have two of their watches, a quartz watch, which is one of their GMT

01:55:43   Quartz, so I don't actually make that model anymore.

01:55:46   And I love that it's a mechanical world timer called the Roche, or Roche, R-O-C-H-E.

01:55:53   I love this watch.

01:55:54   I wore this watch during the Relay 10 live show because I wanted to wear something that

01:56:00   was British.

01:56:00   And it is a watch that can let me see what the time is anywhere in the world.

01:56:06   Well, not anywhere, just the places that it's listed.

01:56:09   But you get most of the major time zones ticked off.

01:56:11   It's got like a little hand, there's a little wheel that moves on the inside, which is the

01:56:16   hour on a 24 hour clock.

01:56:18   And then you can work out the rest of the minutes.

01:56:20   I just also think it's a beautiful watch.

01:56:22   And it has really great loom, which is like the glow in the dark.

01:56:25   They also show that on the website, so you can see what it looks like in the dark.

01:56:30   And I wear it with a Milanese band, and it's just such a good watch.

01:56:35   I love it so much.

01:56:36   I also wear, today I'm wearing a Timex, which is a very different price bracket.

01:56:43   Watches are awesome.

01:56:45   And I'm happy to be wearing, in case you haven't been listening to Connected recently,

01:56:49   I'm off the Apple Watch for a bit.

01:56:51   And I'm back to mechanical watches again.

01:56:53   And I'm really enjoying myself.

01:56:55   I love it.

01:56:57   If you would like to ask us a question from a future episode of the show, or you'd like

01:57:03   to send us any feedback or follow up, go to upgradefeedback.com.

01:57:07   Thank you to our members who support us with Upgrade Plus.

01:57:09   Go to getupgradeplus.com and you can sign up for longer ad-free versions of the show,

01:57:14   each and every week.

01:57:15   You can find us on YouTube by searching for The Upgrade Podcast.

01:57:18   I would like to thank our sponsors.

01:57:20   That is HelloFresh, ExpressVPN, ZBiotics, and FitBot for their support of this episode.

01:57:25   We'll be back next week, maybe with a draft.

01:57:28   So if Apple announced that there's going to be an event, next week's episode will probably

01:57:32   be the draft, because we're expecting that the Apple event will probably be on September

01:57:36   9th, which means, if that's the case, based on the past they would send out invites this

01:57:43   week.

01:57:43   And so if that's the case, if you see it, then know that there will be a draft on Monday

01:57:49   for you.

01:57:49   And if that's the case, that means the Summer of Fun is over.

01:57:54   You know, that's all we can do for you.

01:57:56   That's what happens.

01:57:57   We don't know.

01:57:57   It's the passage of time.

01:57:58   Unfortunately, the Summer of Fun ends unexpectedly sometimes.

01:58:01   With the draft, yes.

01:58:03   The marching band bursts through and ends the Summer of Fun.

01:58:05   That's how that works.

01:58:07   And you'll know next week.

01:58:08   But thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Upgrade.

01:58:10   Until next time, say goodbye just as though.

01:58:12   Goodbye, Mike Hurley.