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Connected

570: The Hardest Bug

 

00:00:00   Hello and welcome to another episode of Connected.

00:00:11   This is episode number 570, and it's brought to you by OpenCase, Squarespace, and FitBot.

00:00:20   I'm John Voorhees, filling in for one or the other of Mike or Steven, and I have with me

00:00:27   none other than the Ricky Benchman himself, Federico Vatici.

00:00:33   Hello, hello, hello, hello.

00:00:35   You're filling in for both, so you have, you know, but...

00:00:40   I'm feeling the weight of the world on my shoulders.

00:00:42   I know, I know, but you can do it.

00:00:44   We just had a really interesting conversation in the Pro Show for Connected Pro members.

00:00:48   The first part was kind of philosophical, you know, talking about user interfaces on mobile

00:00:53   phones as almost video game rendering engines.

00:00:57   And then John wanted to talk about low-tech life hacks, and we had plenty.

00:01:01   So, yes.

00:01:03   We did.

00:01:03   We, John, thank you for filling in.

00:01:06   Obviously, Mike and Steven are busy with the preparation for the podcast-a-thon.

00:01:10   We're going to talk about that in a few minutes.

00:01:13   Before we get to that, John, we have some follow-up.

00:01:15   We do.

00:01:16   Friend of the show, not Mark Gurman, NMG, is back.

00:01:21   Now, Mark Gurman is back saying, home device with square display and AirPods 5 with cameras

00:01:29   shipping next year.

00:01:31   Both the home device and AirPods will include cameras that constantly monitor its surroundings.

00:01:36   How do you guys feel about always-on-cameras starting to spread more and more outside of

00:01:42   Meta's sunglasses?

00:01:45   Interesting rumor, an interesting question, especially on the heels of last night's MetaConnect

00:01:51   event, where Meta announced multiple pairs of glasses with cameras, an update to the existing

00:01:58   line of Meta Raybans, but also the brand new Meta display glasses, like actual augmented reality

00:02:06   glasses that have a little display in one of the lenses and project UI in front of your eyes.

00:02:11   And those have cameras as well.

00:02:13   Now, interesting rumor.

00:02:16   So we know about the HomePod with the screen, and we knew that Apple was exploring the idea

00:02:21   of AirPods with cameras.

00:02:22   AirPods with cameras, I still, I find this rumor quite strange, if only because I don't understand

00:02:30   the engineering of it.

00:02:33   Like, where exactly are you going to place these cameras?

00:02:37   I kind of feel like it's going to end up shooting video of things that are on the sides of you,

00:02:42   which is probably not super useful, right?

00:02:44   I mean, you're walking down the street and you can see the left and right of you, but not

00:02:48   in front of you.

00:02:49   I just don't know where you'd put it.

00:02:50   And I also, I guess, look, Federico, the thing to me that I got to maybe take issue with

00:02:56   NMG on this one is AirPods 5.

00:02:59   I mean, we're on three now.

00:03:01   No, no, no, no, no, no, no, the regular AirPods, I think NMG is saying.

00:03:05   Oh, I see, I see, I got all right.

00:03:07   My apologies.

00:03:08   We got the AirPods Pro 3 now, but we got the AirPods 5 next year with the cameras.

00:03:13   But we're going to put cameras in the low-end model?

00:03:16   Maybe, maybe.

00:03:19   Maybe, I don't know.

00:03:20   But also, like, I guess the idea is to have always-on visual intelligence always available.

00:03:28   I guess that's the pitch, right?

00:03:31   I would assume, obviously, you would need an iPhone always on you because, you know, they

00:03:36   cannot get Apple intelligence to run on an Apple Watch, let alone inside AirPods.

00:03:40   So you're going to need an iPhone on you.

00:03:44   And I guess the idea would be that you're looking at something, you can ask Siri a question about

00:03:50   it, and you can use visual intelligence from your connected AirPods cameras.

00:03:54   Maybe that's the pitch, right?

00:03:57   I guess.

00:03:58   I got to imagine that if this is happening, especially with the AirPods, that the resolution of this

00:04:04   camera is going to be very low because in order for the batteries to last on AirPods while

00:04:11   shooting and transferring video to an iPhone, seems to me like that's a really big technical

00:04:17   challenge in terms of both bandwidth and just, you know, battery.

00:04:20   Yeah, you're right.

00:04:22   And also, I would be surprised if Apple lets you take pictures with this, actually.

00:04:28   I don't think, my hot take here is that if they're going to do this, these cameras, you're

00:04:33   not going to be able to use them to take photos.

00:04:35   They're just going to be visual intelligence cameras.

00:04:39   That makes sense to me.

00:04:39   Because, like, we know, for example, with the Meta glasses, that you can take pictures,

00:04:44   but the LED has to be always on whenever you take a picture.

00:04:47   So, is Apple going to, if you're going to take pictures with these AirPods 5, are you, are

00:04:53   your ears going to be illuminated all the time?

00:04:56   Because they got to have an LED to tell people that you're taking pictures?

00:05:02   I don't know.

00:05:03   Yeah, I mean, look, I think that there is some benefit to having an always on camera.

00:05:10   I mean, think about, let's just assume that these things can see, would be able to see

00:05:16   just your surroundings in general as you go about your day.

00:05:19   You know, it would be like, it could tell you, oh, you know, you think to yourself, where did

00:05:25   I leave my iPhone?

00:05:26   And your AirPods, maybe no, maybe you left it in your bedroom next to, you know, on a

00:05:31   bedside table.

00:05:32   And, and, and now you can find it.

00:05:34   It's like, you know, little things like that, or maybe it's not even like technology where

00:05:39   you could, where you could use something like find my anyway, but it's something like, where

00:05:43   did I leave my keys to my car?

00:05:45   You know, did I leave them on the table in the front entryway or did I leave them in

00:05:50   the kitchen or where did I put them?

00:05:51   And, you know, that, that kind of stuff could be kind of useful, I think.

00:05:54   But I do think that there are boundaries where people are going to have a problem with this.

00:06:00   I mean, you don't want to wear these into them.

00:06:02   You know, there's, there's various places.

00:06:04   Maybe you don't want to have these.

00:06:05   Let me just put it that way.

00:06:07   Yeah.

00:06:07   The smaller rooms of your house, like your bathroom, for instance.

00:06:10   Yeah.

00:06:12   Would you put a home public screen in there?

00:06:15   No, I mean, do you really want that in your bedroom?

00:06:17   Probably not.

00:06:19   There's a lot of things that I, I don't know.

00:06:22   I think like if I had a home pod with a camera in it on my kitchen counter where I'm either

00:06:30   cooking or sitting somewhere nearby eating a meal, I, that's probably fine.

00:06:36   But is this also recording my voice?

00:06:39   Is this picking up every detail of everything I talk to with my family?

00:06:43   There's a lot of issues there.

00:06:44   Not to go even beyond just the, the fact that, you know, it's, it's a video.

00:06:48   It's just like potentially absorbing more information than people would necessarily want to give it.

00:06:55   Yeah.

00:06:55   Yeah.

00:06:56   Okay.

00:06:57   Well, as we know, it is, uh, childhood cancer awareness month.

00:07:02   And, uh, we've been doing this, you know, the, Mike and Steven started this years ago, uh, relay, uh, for St. Jude.

00:07:11   And this is obviously one of the most important weeks of the year.

00:07:17   It is the, the most important time of the year, really.

00:07:20   And this is the seven, this is the seventh year that the relay community is rallying together to support St. Jude.

00:07:26   John, why don't you tell our listeners about it?

00:07:29   Yeah.

00:07:30   So, you know, St. Jude, I think a lot of listeners probably already know is based in Memphis, Tennessee, where, where, uh, Steven and his family are from.

00:07:38   Um, and his son is a, uh, childhood cancer survivor.

00:07:41   And so this is obviously something that's very close to, to him and to his family, but it's, it goes well beyond, you know, the, the environs of Memphis, Tennessee, because St. Jude not only operates all throughout the United States, but they work with hospitals and researchers worldwide to help bring healthcare to kids all around the world.

00:08:03   And it, and it extends beyond to just like beyond just the treatment of cancer.

00:08:08   It also extends to some of the financial difficulties that families find themselves in when they have a child with cancer, because obviously that, that sort of thing can really be a drain on, on people financially.

00:08:21   And St. Jude really makes that easier by taking care of a lot of those expenses.

00:08:26   And, you know, Relay has been doing just an amazing job for now for seven whole years, raising money for this incredibly important cause.

00:08:35   And this week, the podcast-a-thon is happening.

00:08:39   It's happening on Friday, noon Eastern time, which is my time zone, but, you know, check your, check your calendars and your time zone apps to get the time in your area.

00:08:48   And they're going to be doing shenanigans and hijinks.

00:08:51   That's what I say, shenanigans and hijinks that will be for a very good cause to help people to, uh, to raise money for St. Jude.

00:08:59   Now, over this course of the seven years, they're closing in on four and a half million dollars, which is just like mind boggling to me that, that Relay has done this.

00:09:09   I mean, it just really, I think to me confirms what a strong community Relay has and the people in it who really care about this cause and rally together to do more than just like, you know, Mike and Steven could do on their own by donating their money, but also raising money on their own.

00:09:27   Cause you can do that as part of this and participating through listening to the shows and talking to their friends and employers to get matching gifts and all that sort of thing.

00:09:36   So be sure to check out the, the podcast-a-thon on Friday at noon Eastern.

00:09:43   And if you haven't donated yet, just go to the, uh, the website and check it out because you can go to St. Jude.org slash Relay and make a donation because any, really any amount goes a long way.

00:09:56   I mean, it's really important to, to get these donations in and help the kids and really no date donation is too small to, to be part of this and tell your friends about it because, uh, we're closing out.

00:10:09   We're halfway through September and they're going to be doing this for the rest of the month.

00:10:13   And it'd be really cool if we could raise even more money than ever before for St. Jude.

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00:12:26   All right, John, I don't know if you noticed, but this website called MagStories published a whole bunch of reviews for operating systems.

00:12:34   I'm not familiar with their work.

00:12:36   Yeah, so it's a website where there's one guy from Italy that is actually pretty good and all the other ones are like, eh, passable.

00:12:44   Oh, really?

00:12:45   Yeah, the guy from America.

00:12:46   He's not so good.

00:12:47   I know, I know.

00:12:48   He's just there because he's needed.

00:12:49   I got it.

00:12:50   I got it.

00:12:50   All right.

00:12:51   All right.

00:12:51   All right.

00:12:52   You're going to do this to me on Review Week, Federico?

00:12:54   I'm sorry.

00:12:56   I'm sorry.

00:12:57   It's okay.

00:12:57   It's okay.

00:12:58   I love you.

00:12:58   It's a big, me too.

00:13:00   It's a big week.

00:13:01   And we have the entire family of OS 26s are out for people.

00:13:07   iOS.

00:13:07   We do.

00:13:08   iPad OS.

00:13:09   Mac OS.

00:13:09   TV OS.

00:13:10   Watch OS.

00:13:11   Mac OS.

00:13:13   Vision OS.

00:13:14   Those are six operating systems.

00:13:18   I mean, there's also like, technically speaking, there's Audio OS, which is not an official name.

00:13:24   That is the software of the HomePods.

00:13:26   And there's CarPlay, which is an iOS extension.

00:13:29   So we're not going to count those.

00:13:30   I am going to do something here.

00:13:35   So we are going to put in the show notes there are going to be links to all of the Mac Stories reviews that we've done.

00:13:41   Because, hey, we're hosting this episode.

00:13:44   And so we're putting our own links.

00:13:45   We could have it all be in front of us.

00:13:46   No, no, no.

00:13:48   You know, Six Colors, Jason Snell thing going on.

00:13:51   This is connected.

00:13:52   Me and John are doing connected.

00:13:54   It's all going to be full of Mac Stories links.

00:13:57   I don't care.

00:13:57   All right.

00:13:59   But I am going to try something, which is I wrote about iOS and iPadOS.

00:14:03   You wrote about macOS.

00:14:05   You're going to get to ask me about the Mac.

00:14:08   I'll ask you about iOS and iPadOS.

00:14:11   John, what do you think of Liquid Glass on iOS and iPadOS?

00:14:16   You know, I like it.

00:14:18   I do find that Liquid Glass on the iPhone in particular can have legibility issues in places, especially in apps like photos and music, where you've got backgrounds that tend to be the backgrounds that Apple can't predict.

00:14:36   And they can oftentimes be very different and busy.

00:14:39   And so that can be a problem.

00:14:40   But by and large, I like the liveliness of it.

00:14:44   I like the organicness of it.

00:14:46   And I think, you know, I think when I first tried it in June, I thought this is a style that might look dated pretty quickly.

00:14:56   But I've sort of changed my mind on that.

00:14:59   I still think that that's a possibility that it'll just look like, you know, 70s bell bottoms in the 90s.

00:15:07   But I think maybe not.

00:15:10   I think that maybe what we're seeing is the first steps into, as we talked about a little bit in the pro show, a more vibrant and more animated UI that will be something that we see more of in the future on all of Apple's devices, but not just Apple's.

00:15:27   I think, you know, this is kind of the direction I expect that we'll see other platforms go in more in the future.

00:15:35   Have you ever been bothered by legibility issues, like contrast issues?

00:15:40   A little bit, a little bit.

00:15:42   I mean, it's like I said, and sometimes in music, you know, things will get a little funky.

00:15:47   But and I've seen search bars that will, depending on the colors, you know, if they're light colors in particular, sometimes the search bar will kind of disappear almost.

00:15:57   And I do worry about people who maybe have lower vision might have issues with that.

00:16:04   I know I actually this week my dad called me and he was really concerned about iOS 26 because he was he had heard that it was a drastic change and that and he wondered whether he would still be able to use his iPhone.

00:16:19   And he was like, are they taking some of my apps away?

00:16:21   And I was like, no, they're not taking your apps away.

00:16:23   Are they changing how any of them work?

00:16:25   Like, well, no, not really.

00:16:26   And so I I texted him a bunch of the side by side side screenshots that you had done between 18 and 26 and had him look at them.

00:16:36   And and his reaction to it was what's changed, because, I mean, I mean, I suppose you could be accused of even one of the problems with doing a review of design is people can say, well, you didn't pick out the best examples.

00:16:49   I think you actually did pick out good examples of where things had changed.

00:16:53   But they the changes, as I, you know, I explained to him, like, you know, search bars moving to the bottom and I explained to him the check marks replacing done and a few other kind of very fundamental UI elements that I thought would be the kind of things that he would run into regularly.

00:17:09   And he didn't have any problem with those.

00:17:11   And I think that by and large, most people won't have problems with those, although I do think people will run into at least some visual glitches here and there.

00:17:22   I mean, it's just I think it's just a system that hasn't been fully, fully refined yet and that it'll hopefully get better over the course of the 26 releases and on into the future, because I don't think like glass is like I think we're seeing the start of liquid glass, not the end of liquid glass.

00:17:42   And that liquid glass is going to be a design language that is going to get refined over at least the next two or three years easily.

00:17:50   Oh, what about the iPad for you?

00:17:53   The iPad for me, what I for me on the iPad, I find myself, despite the fact that I've been focused almost exclusively on Mac OS for the last three months, I found myself using my iPad Pro 11 inch more over the summer than I typically would during a Mac review season.

00:18:13   And I mean, typically in the summertime, I'm kind of tied to my desk, which is where I install the latest beta and live in it day after day.

00:18:23   And when I did have a break from testing Mac OS, I would oftentimes take my iPad down to a local coffee shop and just catch up on things.

00:18:34   And I really did find that having the windowing has made a world of difference because it's not just me going to the coffee shop and checking my email and responding to a few people or reading a couple of articles in RSS.

00:18:49   It's now I can go through the RSS and more easily take the URLs and drop them into Notion and then maybe text you about them and then check my email and get a piece of information from there and then do some searches on the web.

00:19:04   And it's just, you know, you could do all those things before, but now with windowing, it's just easier to kind of set up an environment, even on a screen that's not the biggest one available on the iPad and use those and move around those apps in a more productive way than I could before.

00:19:25   And so, yeah, I found myself just loving that and bringing it with me wherever I could to use it as much as possible.

00:19:32   I expect now that we are done with the review season, that's only going to increase for me.

00:19:37   I'm going to be using it a lot more, not just, you know, when I'm out and about, but also just around the house, too.

00:19:42   And for context, aside from the review season, like in your day to day, what computers do you use for working your setup?

00:19:53   Yeah, so I have a Mac Studio, an M1 Mac Studio is my main computer on my desk, and that's where, like, most of my Mac Stories work happens.

00:20:03   I have a loaner MacBook Pro from Apple that's an M4 Macs.

00:20:09   That's an amazing laptop, and I use that when I'm not at my desk.

00:20:14   So when I'm not in review season, I move between those two quite a bit, and the laptop really is just what allows me to get away from sitting in the same chair.

00:20:23   all day in front of, at a desk, whether I'm, you know, elsewhere in the house or away.

00:20:29   And those are my main Macs.

00:20:33   I've got a Mac Mini that I've been testing from Apple, too, but it's not, like, something that I'm using constantly, the way I am the other ones.

00:20:41   And then, yeah, I guess the iPad is, like, secondary for me.

00:20:46   Interesting.

00:20:46   Okay.

00:20:47   What do you want to know from me?

00:20:50   I want to know if you've tried Spotlight and where you think it might fit in your life.

00:20:56   Yes.

00:20:57   I have tried it, and I think as soon as I have the time, because, so right now, I'm still using, on loan from Apple, an M3 Ultra Mac Studio.

00:21:07   And I also have my own MacBook Pro, M4 Pro, MacBook Pro.

00:21:16   I only have Tahoe on the MacBook Pro because I was waiting for the final release to put it on the Mac Studio, which has been, for the past few months, my main production machine for recording podcasts.

00:21:29   And so, I wanted to have as stable an environment as possible.

00:21:32   But I have Tahoe.

00:21:34   I have a Tahoe on my MacBook Pro, which I use more than the Mac Studio, since June.

00:21:39   And I started...

00:21:41   There we go.

00:21:42   Yeah.

00:21:42   I am here to tell you that there's a problem with the M3 Ultra and getting Tahoe installed on it.

00:21:48   Really?

00:21:48   That I just read about this morning.

00:21:50   Really?

00:21:50   Yes.

00:21:51   I read on MacRumors, and I can get you the link, that there's a bug that's preventing Tahoe from being installed on the...

00:21:59   M3 Ultra.

00:22:00   Yeah.

00:22:00   Then it's going to be stuck on Sequoia, I guess.

00:22:02   For a little bit.

00:22:03   I mean, I expect that's something that'll clear up pretty quick.

00:22:05   Okay.

00:22:06   Interesting.

00:22:06   I tried Spotlight on the MacBook Pro, and what I love about it, obviously, is the idea of triggering shortcuts from Spotlight, but also not just shortcuts, actions for apps and passing input to those actions.

00:22:24   I have tried, for example, just whenever, when I set it up, I was like, hey, you know what?

00:22:29   I never tried the integration with Spotlight and shortcuts.

00:22:33   I just searched for add link because I knew that was the name of one of the good links actions for adding a link to your read letter queue.

00:22:45   So I typed add, the add link action came up.

00:22:50   I tabbed, and Spotlight selected the input field for that action.

00:22:57   So that was the input parameter, right?

00:22:59   The actual URL that you want to save.

00:23:02   I pasted a link that I had in my clipboard, and instantly it was saved into my good links.

00:23:07   I was like, oh, well, this is exactly how my interactions with shortcuts should be.

00:23:13   Like, I didn't have to make a shortcut.

00:23:17   Here's the thing.

00:23:18   And why I think I'm going to stop using Raycast in favor of Spotlight.

00:23:23   Whenever I wanted to do that in the past and trigger that functionality with a shortcut,

00:23:33   I would have had to, well, create a shortcut first up front.

00:23:40   Right, even if it was only one action shortcut.

00:23:42   Even if it was only one action, I would have had to create it myself in the first place.

00:23:47   Otherwise, Raycast couldn't have seen it in my, that's how the third party integration with shortcuts works.

00:23:53   Actually, I think Raycast is, you know, abstracting all of the complexity from it.

00:24:00   I just think it's using the default command line integration for shortcuts.

00:24:03   That's what it is.

00:24:04   Yeah, I think so too.

00:24:05   And that integration only exposes the actual shortcuts in the user's library, not even the app shortcuts.

00:24:14   Those are things that developers can bake into their apps and are only exposed in the shortcuts app.

00:24:20   They're not exposed to third party developers via the shortcuts CLI, the command line utility.

00:24:25   Although they are not exposed on the Mac in the shortcuts app.

00:24:29   Wow.

00:24:29   Really?

00:24:30   Yeah, that is one of the differences.

00:24:33   That is.

00:24:34   If you, if you open up the shortcuts app and you scroll to the bottom, you don't have, you don't have the list.

00:24:40   Yeah, there you go.

00:24:41   At least they are.

00:24:42   Who knows why?

00:24:42   Because now it's essentially.

00:24:43   On iPhone and iPad, obviously you can see them.

00:24:45   Yeah, but, but you're right.

00:24:47   I mean, that's the thing.

00:24:47   Spotlight is exposing essentially that.

00:24:50   But exactly.

00:24:51   So Spotlight is giving you access to all of the individual actions.

00:24:58   All of the actions that a third party app or a built-in app supports in shortcuts, those can also be actions that you can trigger from Spotlight without manually creating a shortcut for them up front.

00:25:13   So the add link action in this case needs an actual link that you need to save into your GoodLinks app.

00:25:24   You can just tab through it in Spotlight and, which is, by the way, a familiar interaction.

00:25:30   The Raycast integration also works like that.

00:25:32   You find the shortcut, you press tab, you tab into the input field.

00:25:37   But in this case, you're not.

00:25:38   Here's the key difference is that Raycast, it's a simpler integration in that it's loading all of your shortcuts.

00:25:45   And then you're just passing the input, right?

00:25:49   The main input to the shortcut.

00:25:51   With this integration in Spotlight, you're triggering individual actions and you can pass input to specific parameters of the action.

00:26:01   So that is my, and like, I would say like, Michael S. Tahoe, liquid glass, like you wrote in your review, it's kind of there.

00:26:12   Like, it doesn't really, it doesn't really bother me.

00:26:15   Here's my hot take.

00:26:17   And I've been, you know, as you know, John, both you and I are very online, right?

00:26:24   As people, I do not understand a lot of the time, and I'm not saying that those opinions are not valid, but I personally, I have limits.

00:26:35   And one of my limits is I struggle to understand when I sometimes think that people get so upset about the most mundane things that I would never get upset about.

00:26:45   And one of those things is people going absolutely crazy this summer over how horrible, terrible, devastating macOS Tahoe looks.

00:26:57   And I look at it, I'm like, yeah, it's got like a floating sidebar and some pill-shaped toolbars.

00:27:04   And look, I don't think I'm, I don't think I'm naive.

00:27:07   I don't think I'm stupid.

00:27:09   I mean, I've been in this racket for like 16 years at this point.

00:27:13   It's kind of there, right?

00:27:15   It's fine.

00:27:16   It's fine.

00:27:17   I would argue that in some respects it's better because those pill-shaped shapes around icons on the toolbar are persistent.

00:27:28   So it actually gives you a better feel for related actions.

00:27:32   I think that that works really well with things like Safari extensions.

00:27:36   Yeah.

00:27:38   And so I don't really have strong feelings about liquid glass on macOS Tahoe.

00:27:46   My favorite part of macOS Tahoe is the new shortcut stuff.

00:27:50   So the integration with Spotlight and, and I'm so jealous, the automations.

00:27:55   Yes, finally, finally.

00:27:58   Not only does, you know, it's, I guess it's a poetic justice or something like that, that the Mac finally gets shortcuts automations.

00:28:07   And after several years, and they're actually better than the ones on iOS and iPadOS.

00:28:13   Yes.

00:28:13   So many of the ones that are in there are ones that you and I have talked about over the years on App Stories when we do our shortcuts wishlist episodes, which have gotten to the point where it's like, yeah, we're not going to do this episode anymore.

00:28:27   Just listen to the last year's because it seemed like none of them were ever going to come true.

00:28:31   But now we did get things like, you know, when you mount or unmount a drive or when you connect a connected display or you drop on or off a Wi-Fi network.

00:28:44   There's a lot of stuff there.

00:28:46   I think the core that people will use are scheduled shortcuts and folder shortcuts, which allow you to, you know, run a shortcut based on a change on the files in a folder, both, which is, which is great.

00:29:00   And something that's not like a new concept on the Mac, but it's really new.

00:29:05   It's brand new to shortcuts.

00:29:06   I think the two things I would mention to you about, about spotlight that you should try are the quick keys, which lets you assign a keyboard combination to a shortcut or to anything, really.

00:29:19   Any of the actions.

00:29:20   And that's really nice because it's not even, you don't even need to do a modifier.

00:29:24   You can just do like, I have a, I have one called fetch podcast details.

00:29:29   And that was my example in the review, which is that I can just type, you know, I can, I can summon spotlight and then type FP return and it launches the shortcut, which is really nice.

00:29:42   And, uh, and the other thing is, is, you know, how, when you don't really know where something is in a menu on the Mac, you can go into help and you can do search and it'll, it'll show you where it is in the menu system.

00:29:52   You can access menu items directly from spotlight now.

00:29:57   So, you know, if you want to print something or you want to like, I don't know, select everything or something specific to a particular app, you can do all of that from spotlight now too.

00:30:07   Interesting.

00:30:09   Yeah, I'm very jealous of, of the new spotlight and I am also very jealous of the new control center as it relates to customizing your menu bar.

00:30:20   I really hope that both of these features eventually find their way to the iPad, but, but I'll give you one more, John.

00:30:29   I know that this is an unpopular opinion if you're Craig Federighi, but I do think these two devices are going to come.

00:30:39   In the near future, I think all the signs are there, including a rumor as of yesterday, uh, by friend of the show, Ming-Chi Kuo, now a very active user on Twitter or X, the everything app.

00:30:53   Um, yeah, uh, saying that the 2026 OLED MacBook Pro late 2026 is going to have a touch screen.

00:31:02   So, I mean, okay, let's face it.

00:31:05   All right.

00:31:05   At this point, if you're Apple and you've been making these two devices, these two platforms for such a long time and people were always telling you, hey, are you making a hybrid laptop?

00:31:16   Hey, are you making a hybrid laptop?

00:31:17   And you're like, no, no, no, no, we're not going to merge.

00:31:19   No, no, no.

00:31:19   iPadOS, Microsoft, no, no, no, no.

00:31:21   They're going to be different.

00:31:22   And we're like, all right, fine.

00:31:25   You're not doing it.

00:31:26   And then over the past few years, slowly but surely, these two platforms are falling in love with each other.

00:31:33   All of a sudden.

00:31:34   They're borrowing from each other, they're sharing UI, they're sharing apps, they're sharing window design, now they're sharing window buttons.

00:31:45   They're basically partners at this point, these two operating systems.

00:31:49   And now you're making them exactly the same in iPadOS 26.

00:31:54   You're giving the iPad a menu bar, although it's kind of a baby menu bar, not the real thing.

00:32:00   But it's basically the iPad has learned a whole bunch of tricks from the Mac.

00:32:04   And now this rumor comes, and obviously in the process, the Mac has learned a whole bunch of tricks from the iPad.

00:32:09   And now this rumor is saying, well, Apple is going to make a touch Mac.

00:32:12   Now, do we really, here's my question for you, John.

00:32:15   Do we realistically think that 15, so give it another 15 years, all right?

00:32:23   The iPad is 15 at this point, 20, 20, 25, 15 years of iPad.

00:32:28   Do you imagine another 15 years of iPad as its own standalone iPad?

00:32:33   Or do you imagine a scenario where the two things are, despite what was said years ago, are going to merge?

00:32:41   As skeptical as I kind of am of that rumor, I do see them merging within 15 years.

00:32:48   I do think that that is where this is headed.

00:32:50   And I have a question back to you, Fedor.

00:32:52   Okay.

00:32:52   What do you think is harder to do to bring windowing to the iPad or to bring touch to the Mac?

00:33:01   Has to be touch to the Mac.

00:33:03   I would think so, too.

00:33:05   Because you are starting from a much older foundation where, and sure, I mean, Apple has been on a trajectory, you know this, because you've been doing, this was your seventh Mac OS review?

00:33:19   No, we had, we had, I posted this on Mac, so I think it's the ninth.

00:33:23   Ninth, okay.

00:33:24   Yeah.

00:33:25   You've been covering this for almost a decade then.

00:33:29   Yep.

00:33:30   And we've seen Apple progressively refine Mac OS to make touch targets bigger, simplify, you know, make it very similar to how things work on iOS and iPadOS.

00:33:42   But there are still plenty of elements on Mac OS that require touch.

00:33:46   But really, the biggest challenge is, it depends if you're thinking that you're making a laptop with a touchscreen, that's a conversation.

00:33:57   It's another conversation if you're thinking that they're making a Mac with a detachable touchscreen.

00:34:07   Because at that point, like the computer, is it inside the keyboard or is it inside the display?

00:34:16   And I'll give you one, one more, John, which is, this company literally just made a phone where the entire computer is in the camera bump.

00:34:29   That's exactly what I was thinking about.

00:34:29   I was thinking exactly the same thing.

00:34:32   And with, even if it's a MacBook Pro and requires more than just what could fit around a camera bump,

00:34:41   it's, at this point, it's probably getting to the size where it could fit in the screen.

00:34:47   You know, to bring it back to where we started with the Mac Stories reviews,

00:34:52   what Apple is doing here reminds me of what you and I were doing years ago,

00:34:58   where you and I, we were working on the iOS and the Mac OS review.

00:35:03   And each of us, we would write about the same apps twice.

00:35:07   I would do it in my review.

00:35:10   You would do it in your review.

00:35:12   And we were doing the same thing twice.

00:35:14   I would write about notes in mine.

00:35:16   And you would say, yes.

00:35:17   And in notes this year, Mac OS, like the same features.

00:35:20   And it seems to me like, to an extent, Apple is doing that with the iPad and the Mac.

00:35:26   Like, they're building the same stuff, now more similar than ever, in two places.

00:35:33   And sure, those are two very distinct hardware experiences at this point.

00:35:38   And I mean, I love the iPad.

00:35:40   But also, are they really that different?

00:35:43   And just like it no longer made sense for you and I to be writing about the same things twice,

00:35:49   it's probably not, it doesn't make as much sense for Apple to be developing the same things twice.

00:35:55   And I get it.

00:35:56   And I get it why, you know, you're against the idea now, because you would think,

00:36:00   well, but I don't want to lose what makes the iPad the iPad.

00:36:02   And if you're a Mac person, you would say, well, I don't want to lose what makes the Mac the Mac.

00:36:07   Right.

00:36:08   But my question would be, okay, but do you think that in 15 years, do you think,

00:36:12   or let me actually phrase it like that.

00:36:14   Do you think that in 2040, in 2040.

00:36:18   Wow.

00:36:19   Yeah, I know.

00:36:20   In 2040, will you still be purchasing a Mac and an iPad?

00:36:26   I don't think, I don't think you will.

00:36:29   I don't think you will.

00:36:30   So.

00:36:30   Yeah, I think you're right.

00:36:32   Hey, Federico, can I tell you a Tahoe bug story?

00:36:36   Yes, I wanted to know this before we move on.

00:36:39   Yes.

00:36:40   Okay.

00:36:40   Yeah.

00:36:41   I want everybody to know about this, because this has been probably the hardest bug I've

00:36:46   ever tracked down on the Mac.

00:36:48   While I was using Tahoe over the summer, literally the first or second beta that I tried, I saw

00:36:57   two third-party controls show up in my control center, or at least in the gallery that I could

00:37:04   add to my control center, which were for Music Harbor by Marcus Tanaka and Sequel, which is

00:37:11   the media tracking app.

00:37:12   And I thought, oh, good.

00:37:13   It's nice to see, you know, that Marcus and Roman are both like on the ball and they've

00:37:17   got these things there and I can't wait to see what they're doing with them.

00:37:21   And then the public beta came out and those two controls disappeared.

00:37:25   And I thought, oh, well, this is probably one of those Apple things where it was like

00:37:28   not quite ready for public consumption.

00:37:31   And so it'll show up again later.

00:37:32   Well, they never showed up again.

00:37:35   I had nothing.

00:37:36   And I started asking around.

00:37:40   I talked to Jason.

00:37:42   I talked to Steven.

00:37:43   I talked to a bunch of people to see if they had been seeing third-party controls and they

00:37:48   really hadn't.

00:37:49   And then I talked to you and you said, oh, yeah, I've got one for drafts.

00:37:54   I thought, oh, that's interesting.

00:37:55   And I, at the time, I didn't have the drafts beta.

00:37:57   So I grabbed the drafts beta.

00:37:59   And sure enough, I saw the drafts control and that was it.

00:38:03   And this is like the first few days of September, about two weeks out from the release.

00:38:07   And I started talking to developers then and trying to get a sense for, are these just not

00:38:14   being supported or people not into this?

00:38:16   And I found a mixed bag of people who were either not supporting it or who were struggling

00:38:23   with supporting it.

00:38:24   And so it wasn't clear to me at all what was going on.

00:38:29   And then very shortly before the betas came out, I found a second control, which was for

00:38:35   ScreenFlow, which is a screenshot utility app.

00:38:39   And I thought, well, it must, because those two were showing up, it must not be broken.

00:38:44   It must not be a bug in Mac OS.

00:38:48   It must just be the developers either aren't supporting it or having difficulty supporting

00:38:52   it.

00:38:52   And so that's what I wrote in my review, essentially, was that, you know, I only was seeing two and

00:38:57   I hoped I would see more.

00:39:00   And not long after I put out my review, I heard from one of the developers I had been talking

00:39:05   to on and off for quite a while about this and was told that there was a trick to make them

00:39:12   show up.

00:39:12   And the trick...

00:39:14   You won't believe this trick.

00:39:16   This trick is fascinating to me because in retrospect, it makes some, it both makes sense, but it's also

00:39:25   something I don't think anybody would necessarily try, which is you had to open, not the control

00:39:31   center gallery, you have to open the widget gallery.

00:39:34   And when you open the widget gallery, if you go into your desktop and you right click and you, you

00:39:39   know, select edit widgets, it opens the widget gallery and then it will refresh your control

00:39:47   center gallery and you'll see all the apps.

00:39:50   The moment I did it, I had 27 third-party apps with controls because as part of this, trying to

00:39:58   track this down, one day I sat down and I installed like 50 apps.

00:40:02   I went and made sure I had the latest beta of every single Mac app that I had, had been shared

00:40:09   with me.

00:40:09   And I still didn't see anything even after, you know, restarting and trying a bunch of other

00:40:15   things.

00:40:15   And it wasn't until I opened this widget gallery that everything showed up.

00:40:18   So that, that's the trick for anybody who is not seeing many controls in Tahoe.

00:40:25   I think what's going on, I think the reason I did see drafts and screen float, which kind

00:40:31   of threw me off the trail a little bit, is that those are Mac only apps.

00:40:36   Whereas most of the betas I had were universal.

00:40:40   They were all part of a package, whatever, for some reason that seems to make a difference

00:40:45   because that's the only distinction I can think of between drafts, screen float and everything

00:40:51   else I was trying.

00:40:52   And, and I guess the explanation here, I mean, it's obviously a bug, but the reason I think

00:40:59   the widget gallery seems to shake loose everything in control center is that they're all built on

00:41:04   the same underlying app intense technology.

00:41:07   There's something going on where, you know, control center is just not refreshing the gallery

00:41:12   like it should when you open it.

00:41:14   But this related gallery does.

00:41:16   That is an incredible finding.

00:41:20   So I had some help along the way.

00:41:23   I would never have found it if I hadn't talked to, uh, talked to one of these, uh, developers

00:41:28   privately about it, but, uh, now people, a lot of developers are sharing the article online

00:41:32   because, uh, it's, you know, that it's a, it's a customer support issue for them.

00:41:38   Cause people, you know, you look in the shit in their, their notes and it says, oh, we've

00:41:42   got controls for the Mac and people are like, I don't see them.

00:41:45   They're there.

00:41:46   They're just not easy to get to.

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00:43:52   Federico, I want to talk to you today about our relationships with our iPhones.

00:44:00   And I think that's a tough one.

00:44:02   Yeah.

00:44:04   And how, how it's maybe changed over time.

00:44:07   Because I was thinking about this a little bit.

00:44:09   I was thinking about this in the context of our friend, Brendan Bigley, who left his day job, you know, like six months ago.

00:44:18   He used to work in marketing at Disney and Marvel.

00:44:22   And now he's doing his own thing at wavelengths.online.

00:44:26   And I know that Brendan, when he was working in Manhattan, would do a lot of what I used to do when I commuted into Chicago, which is that he would work on his phone, which to me is not the ideal place to work.

00:44:41   However, if you're in a commuting situation on a subway or a train or whatever, it actually is incredibly doable.

00:44:49   I mean, I remember back in talking to Brendan about this stuff, I remember back to the early days when I was writing at Mac Stories, you know, 2015, 2016.

00:44:59   And I was still commuting downtown.

00:45:01   And I would, I had, you know, roughly anywhere from like a 25 to 40 minute train ride.

00:45:07   I would sit down, grab a seat if I could, and I would just bang out stories on my phone and do research and flip between apps and all that stuff.

00:45:17   And usually I, you know, I could actually, I got to the point where I, if it wasn't a long story, I could kind of bang something out on the train and get it posted like a link post or a very short, very short news post, not like a review or anything.

00:45:28   But I used to do that a lot.

00:45:31   But then I started working from home and the iPhone became a lot less important to me.

00:45:37   It was always a media device for me alongside a way that I got work done.

00:45:45   But it became more of an in-between spaces device, by which I mean, you know, maybe I'm running errands or doing chores and I'm listening to a podcast or some music.

00:45:58   Or I'm waiting in line at the grocery store and I think of something that I want to do when I get home.

00:46:04   So I drop it in Todoist or Reminders or some other task manager.

00:46:08   Or I read a few articles when I have spare time while I'm eating lunch or I watch a YouTube video, share the link into Good Links or whatever it is.

00:46:18   And it becomes more of an, it's become in that way a very much an in-between places type of device.

00:46:23   Whereas typically I'm instead, if I'm doing work work, I'm usually sitting either at a desk or with a laptop or even my iPad.

00:46:33   But the phone is not where I get work done now.

00:46:36   The phone is like a supplement to those things as well as just kind of an entertainment device.

00:46:42   Yeah, this is a complex question.

00:46:48   It is.

00:46:49   I've always been, look, I've been writing Mac stories since 2009.

00:46:57   And obviously the iPhone at the beginning used to be, and I feel so old saying this, but it used to be this hot new thing.

00:47:09   You know, 2009, the App Store was one year old.

00:47:15   You know, we were all downloading iBeer and fart apps and stupid stuff from the, it was novel, it was fun.

00:47:27   It was the golden age of making apps, you know, for this device.

00:47:33   And so the iPhone not only was like a revolutionary device, but it was also like this big deal and this like new, interesting toy that I would use as a way to think about content I could write.

00:47:53   And everything was new.

00:47:54   Everything felt new.

00:47:55   Like the first RSS reader, the first third-party email client.

00:47:59   Do you remember, John, the third-party email clients were not allowed up until a certain point?

00:48:04   Right, right, right.

00:48:06   Wow.

00:48:06   Yeah, didn't even have cut, copy, paste in the early days.

00:48:10   Didn't have copy and paste.

00:48:11   You know, things like, I remember when it became a big deal that third-party developers could make a Dropbox-based text editor with Dropbox Sync.

00:48:25   That's true.

00:48:25   Like the first Elements app by Justin Williams.

00:48:29   Oh my God, that's such a throwback.

00:48:31   Yeah, because there was no file system in this sense.

00:48:34   There was no file, there was no iCloud drive.

00:48:35   Yeah, there was no way to, there was nowhere to save your text documents, but cloud storage allowed that to happen.

00:48:41   And so initially, everything was new, everything felt new.

00:48:44   And then of course, you know, life happened and the iPhone became the norm, became normal, became an everyday.

00:48:52   It became the smartphone.

00:48:54   It became what it is today.

00:48:56   And so over the years, my iPhone usage has become more normal, like everybody else.

00:49:03   And I think, realistically speaking, I have been considering the iPad, my work device.

00:49:12   Like I, as you know, I have been working from the iPad for such a long time and I've taken the iPad through its many variations with me over the years.

00:49:22   I worked with an iPad from the hospital, from my car, from the beach, from the beach house, during vacation, at WWDC, in airplane seats, in airport lounges, like in other places.

00:49:35   I have worked with an iPad.

00:49:36   And the iPad has been also my media consumption device.

00:49:41   As a tablet, you know, I love using the iPad Pro as a tablet, you know, when I'm watching a TV show or reading an article or reading a book or watching YouTube videos.

00:49:50   Increasingly, though, I have felt that the iPhone can also be my media device.

00:49:57   And this is where I think, if I were to consider my relationship with the iPhone, I think it's a pretty normal relationship.

00:50:06   I love taking pictures with it.

00:50:08   It's always with me.

00:50:11   Occasionally, if I want to, I can, you know, type out a quick blog post from my iPhone, which I have done.

00:50:19   I have all my shortcuts, all of my, you know, all of my automations are cross-platform.

00:50:25   They work on iOS, iPadOS, macOS.

00:50:27   I have blogged from my iPhone even as of a few weeks ago.

00:50:31   I have posted quick links on Mac Stories from my phone.

00:50:35   But I've noticed one thing that is occurring now that I want to mention and one thing that I think will occur in the future.

00:50:44   The thing that is occurring now is that I have noticed something that I have been doing.

00:50:49   I like to kick off long-running LLM agentic tasks on my iPhone and leave them running on the iPhone while I'm doing something else.

00:51:01   Like, for example, right now, as I'm talking, Claude on my phone is looking at my email inbox.

00:51:07   And it's doing its thing, you know, for several minutes.

00:51:10   I just leave it running on the phone while I'm doing something else around the house, for example.

00:51:15   And maybe I'm listening to a podcast also from my iPhone, but the Claude app is running on the phone doing its thing.

00:51:21   So that idea of, like, it's a pocket computer where you can leave AI tasks running in the background, I don't know.

00:51:27   There's something interesting there.

00:51:28   But the future thing, I feel like my relationship with my iPhone will change dramatically next year with the folding one.

00:51:39   I think looking ahead at the future, I think me getting the iPhone Air this year will be an interesting test to see,

00:51:49   Am I going to use a lightweight, thinner iPhone more for tasks like reading articles or watching videos in bed

00:51:58   than I would typically use an iPad for?

00:52:00   Am I going to use an iPhone Air for that?

00:52:02   And if Apple is going to make a foldable iPhone next year,

00:52:05   how much of that is going to eat into my usage of the iPad?

00:52:10   That will be an interesting evolution, you know, almost going into almost 20 years of iPhone.

00:52:19   Can the iPhone become something more than a phone?

00:52:21   Can it replace some of the tasks that I typically perform on my iPad?

00:52:28   So that, I think, will be the interesting potential future change.

00:52:32   Yeah, I mean, it's interesting.

00:52:35   We already just got done talking about how is the Mac turning into the iPad in a way?

00:52:42   And now we're talking about the iPhone turning into the iPad.

00:52:45   I mean, I think there's a lot of cross-pollination that could potentially happen there.

00:52:49   I agree with you with a foldable phone.

00:52:52   To me, if it has the capabilities of an iPad, I could see myself carrying that in a small foldable keyboard

00:53:02   and going off and typing up stories that way.

00:53:05   I mean, I remember vividly probably in 2015 or 2016, sitting in traffic in the back of a cab in Manhattan,

00:53:13   going to some lawyer meeting where I was doing a roundup of iPhone reviews for Mac Stories.

00:53:20   And I was doing it on my phone.

00:53:22   And that was the peak of my iPhone writing period.

00:53:29   I was a latecomer to the iPhone because, you know, I was a lawyer in the 90s.

00:53:35   Everybody had a BlackBerry.

00:53:36   I was like, I always had the cutting-edge BlackBerry, Federico.

00:53:40   Wow.

00:53:41   And so, for a lot of years, I had...

00:53:44   I would pay so much money to be able to step into a time machine and observe you,

00:53:49   a young, promising lawyer, with your BlackBerry, you know, at some point in the mid-90s or early 2000s.

00:53:57   Oh, I was a 90s lawyer guy.

00:53:59   See younger John in his element at the time.

00:54:01   Yeah.

00:54:02   Man.

00:54:02   For sure.

00:54:03   And so, in those days, I was an iPod Touch user because I still wanted to have the apps.

00:54:11   And I learned, like, I would take the train out of Chicago back to the suburbs.

00:54:17   And as it would pull into a station, I had figured out the Wi-Fi passwords for all the coffee shops and other businesses near the train stops.

00:54:25   And so, I would jump onto the Wi-Fi in the period when people are getting on and off the train to refresh my Instapaper and things like that as I commuted out.

00:54:36   Because I didn't have, you know, I didn't have a mobile phone connection.

00:54:39   I didn't have a mobile network.

00:54:41   On an iPod Touch.

00:54:42   And it wasn't until the iPhone 4 that I actually got an iPhone.

00:54:46   And from there on out, I was using the iPhone.

00:54:49   But, yeah, it's interesting to think about how it's changed over time.

00:54:53   To me, it's become, the iPhone is a very utilitarian device now.

00:54:57   And it's lost a lot of that magic of the early years.

00:55:01   I still love the iPhone.

00:55:02   I still think it's like a little tiny miracle that we have this computer in our pockets.

00:55:07   But I also kind of take it for granted these days, too.

00:55:12   This episode of Connected is brought to you by FitBod.

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00:57:50   All right, John, to close this episode, I want to do something terrible.

00:57:55   Like, I actually want to do something nasty here.

00:57:58   Okay, what's that?

00:58:00   Which is, I want to design me and you together.

00:58:06   We're going to, you know, we're going to put on our best Alan Dye impression.

00:58:11   And we are going to design an Apple gaming console.

00:58:14   Oh, I love it.

00:58:16   Can we make it good?

00:58:17   Can we make it terrible?

00:58:18   Can we make it absolutely nasty as a product?

00:58:21   Yes.

00:58:22   Oh, I think we can both do something amazing and something just absolutely, absolutely awful at the same time.

00:58:30   Okay, so let's just brainstorm some ideas, I guess, and we can come to a decision.

00:58:38   First of all, portable or not portable?

00:58:41   Well, I want to do both because I feel like...

00:58:46   So they're making two consoles.

00:58:47   So they're making a home one and a portable one.

00:58:49   They are, they are, because I don't think they're going to do like the docking portable.

00:58:54   I think what Apple, I think what we're going to do as Apple designers is we're going to, we know better, Federico.

00:59:00   Right.

00:59:01   We are going to make an Apple TV adjacent box that can, you know, run laps around the PS5 and the Xbox Series X.

00:59:10   Yes.

00:59:10   Okay.

00:59:12   So, so we're going to make, so we're going to make something for the home.

00:59:17   Yes.

00:59:19   Okay.

00:59:19   So it's going to be a home console.

00:59:21   First of all, what do we name it?

00:59:24   Apple game?

00:59:25   Uh, no games, plural.

00:59:31   Because we've got to make it...

00:59:33   Yes, because people have to be confused.

00:59:35   Yes.

00:59:35   Yes, they do.

00:59:36   They have to be completely confused between the app and the device.

00:59:40   Just like Apple TV.

00:59:41   Everything is...

00:59:42   And so that you and I can write articles about how the games app on the games is buggy in 2027.

00:59:52   Yes.

00:59:52   So we're going to call it Apple games.

00:59:54   You can buy the latest version of Apple.

00:59:58   Yes.

00:59:58   So it's called Apple games.

01:00:00   Does it have a shape?

01:00:02   I mean, it's got to have a shape.

01:00:03   It's got to have a shape.

01:00:04   I think that we're going to do it.

01:00:06   I think we're just going to take the, uh, the Apple TV and we're going to make it a disc instead of a square puck.

01:00:12   Why is it a disc?

01:00:13   Oh, because of the concentricity of, of liquid glass or something.

01:00:17   Like it's got to be concentric.

01:00:20   So it's going to be disc shaped.

01:00:21   Okay.

01:00:22   I love it.

01:00:23   So it's a digital only, right?

01:00:26   So no physical games, app store only.

01:00:28   Uh, so I would say app store only, no side loading.

01:00:33   Yeah.

01:00:34   Oh yeah.

01:00:34   No, no way.

01:00:35   No ports whatsoever.

01:00:36   No, no USB or anything like that.

01:00:38   No, no ports, no port.

01:00:42   Well, no, no, no ports.

01:00:44   Let's give it, we got to give it ethernet, don't we?

01:00:47   Okay.

01:00:47   We got to give it ethernet, but the ethernet version is more expensive.

01:00:51   Okay.

01:00:53   And it's got to have HDMI, but it can't be HDMI 2.1 or whatever the latest is.

01:00:57   It has to be at least one generation older because we're cutting because of supply chain.

01:01:03   We want to, we want to get a cheaper part so we can get better margins.

01:01:06   Right.

01:01:06   It's HDMI 2.

01:01:08   Right.

01:01:08   So it's HDMI 2.

01:01:10   Uh, so it doesn't really do 4k, but no.

01:01:14   Doesn't really do HDR then either, does it?

01:01:17   Oh no.

01:01:17   I mean, Apple loves HDR though.

01:01:20   I know they do.

01:01:21   So it's gotta, it's gotta be 2.1, but not the latest 2.1.

01:01:25   Let's make it 2.1, but we won't release it until 2.2 is out.

01:01:29   Okay.

01:01:29   Right, right, right.

01:01:31   Just, just to make everybody unhappy.

01:01:33   Right.

01:01:34   Okay.

01:01:34   And, and I think the controversy will be that it doesn't ship

01:01:38   ship with an HDMI 2.1 cable in the box.

01:01:40   Absolutely not.

01:01:43   Power cable is all you get.

01:01:44   No cable, no cable in the box.

01:01:47   I'm writing all this down then later we can, we can run through the list.

01:01:49   You're good.

01:01:50   You're, you're good with your typing.

01:01:52   So, okay.

01:01:53   Um, two, Ethernet is more expensive.

01:01:56   HDMI 2.1 cable in the box.

01:01:58   Um, does it come in, uh, in colors or just one color?

01:02:01   I think it's black.

01:02:03   I was going to say, I think we want it to disappear under the TV.

01:02:06   Right, right.

01:02:06   Okay.

01:02:07   Now, so you're going to purchase this thing.

01:02:11   And I mean, now the, the controller, how do we deal with the controller?

01:02:17   Yeah.

01:02:17   I can't wait to get to the software.

01:02:19   I have lots of ideas there.

01:02:20   The controller, the controller.

01:02:21   Okay.

01:02:21   So we got to get to the, to the, to the controller and the software.

01:02:24   It's the controller.

01:02:25   How do you play these games?

01:02:26   So these games are played on a controller that has no buttons.

01:02:31   No, it hearkens.

01:02:35   It's all touch pads.

01:02:37   I mean, that's touch pads and gyroscopes.

01:02:40   That is the, no, it can't be that touch based haptic feedback and gyroscope.

01:02:47   Okay.

01:02:49   Yeah.

01:02:49   I, I mean, look in an ideal world, it would work a lot like the AirPods.

01:02:56   It would have a layer on top of Bluetooth that allowed for low latency connections that you

01:03:03   could have, you know, so the, the triggers and buttons worked really well.

01:03:07   I mean, that is something that I've always wanted from Apple.

01:03:10   And I've mentioned over and over again on app stories, maybe it would have no buttons,

01:03:15   but boy, I hope it has good connection using Apple's, uh, you know, local, local area networking

01:03:22   connections.

01:03:22   But, but if we're Apple and we think that we know better than anybody else, I think the

01:03:30   discussion we will be having is what if we re-imagined the controller?

01:03:36   What if we, what if we, hear, hear me out.

01:03:38   What if we made it look like the Pippin controllers?

01:03:41   Okay.

01:03:41   So what did the Pippin controller look like?

01:03:43   I have to look.

01:03:44   Apple.

01:03:45   I have a vague idea in my head.

01:03:47   They're, they're shaped like the moon.

01:03:48   They're shaped like a crescent moon.

01:03:49   Oh yeah.

01:03:50   It's shaped, uh, like, uh, do you remember, are you familiar with the original banana prototype

01:03:56   for the PlayStation 3 controller?

01:03:58   Oh, vaguely.

01:03:59   Yes.

01:04:00   I do remember.

01:04:00   The banana DualShock for the PS3.

01:04:02   That was, this is not a good shape.

01:04:04   This is not a good shape.

01:04:05   Yeah.

01:04:05   But maybe we could design it in a way that, you know, gave it some, some Pippin vibes.

01:04:10   I guess what I'm trying to say is that if Apple were to make the controller, they would use

01:04:16   like a totally different button layout than the rest of the industry.

01:04:21   So that if you wanted to make a game for Apple games, you would need to completely rethink

01:04:26   the control scheme because Apple.

01:04:27   They put the D pad, put the D pad on the right and the buttons on the left.

01:04:31   Oh my God.

01:04:32   Okay.

01:04:36   That's horrible.

01:04:37   Okay.

01:04:37   That's interesting.

01:04:38   They would do a D pad on the right and the buttons on the left.

01:04:43   What if instead of doing buttons with symbols, like, you know, PlayStation has the shapes and

01:04:51   the other folks have the letters.

01:04:53   What if they did like symbols and letters, like both of them, like there will be a button

01:05:02   with, I don't know, like, like an X symbol and then the label action.

01:05:08   And then, and then, and then there will be, because Apple could say, and now we're making

01:05:13   games even simpler because you're always going to have a consistent set of buttons.

01:05:18   You're always going to have your action button and your run button and your observer button,

01:05:24   like making the games consistent everywhere.

01:05:28   Right.

01:05:29   And completely hemming in developers so that they couldn't make the games they want because

01:05:33   they always have to have the shoot button would always have to be the one on the top and

01:05:36   the jump button would always have to be the one on the bottom.

01:05:38   Yeah.

01:05:39   And I think they'll, well, we're going to, we're going to design a series of SF symbols

01:05:44   where it's just like a little, a little person, a little person jumping and another one with

01:05:49   like a little ray gun shooting and another one, you know, even we can put them on the sticks.

01:05:56   We could put SF symbols on the sticks.

01:05:57   Why not?

01:05:58   The controller has buttons.

01:06:01   Here's the one.

01:06:01   The controller has buttons.

01:06:03   Yes.

01:06:06   But they have both symbols and text labels on them.

01:06:11   Yes.

01:06:12   I'm still looking at the Pippin controller.

01:06:15   And text labels on them.

01:06:15   That's my inspiration here.

01:06:16   And they're based SF symbols.

01:06:19   The Pippin, the Pippin controller had a track wheel.

01:06:22   Yeah, I know.

01:06:23   Also the sticks have symbols on them.

01:06:26   Okay.

01:06:27   This is horrible.

01:06:32   But it's all okay because it works on the same technology as the AirPods.

01:06:36   So it's really low latency.

01:06:38   Okay.

01:06:38   So it's, it's low latency and can be paired.

01:06:42   Can it be paired to other devices?

01:06:44   Oh my gosh, Federico.

01:06:46   Yeah.

01:06:47   Uh, sure.

01:06:48   It can be used with an iPhone and iPad.

01:06:49   I heard, I, I, I know I'm skipping ahead to software, but what if you shook the controller

01:06:54   to quick, you shook the controller to quit your game?

01:06:57   You what?

01:06:59   You shake the controller.

01:07:01   Just like you shake the iPhone to undo.

01:07:03   You shake the controller to quit the game.

01:07:05   The controller, the controller supports shake to quit.

01:07:10   Shake to quit.

01:07:12   Shake to quit a game.

01:07:13   Um, okay.

01:07:15   Talking about the software.

01:07:15   Uh, here's my pitch.

01:07:17   Okay.

01:07:18   All right.

01:07:19   Game widgets.

01:07:20   You have a home screen on this device.

01:07:25   The, the, the, the home view of, of this, of Apple games is a home screen where you have

01:07:32   the icons for your games, but also the widgets for the games and the widgets are, they show

01:07:38   you the part of the game where you left off on your home screen.

01:07:42   Interesting.

01:07:43   I was going to ask you if the, if the widgets were playable games themselves, but I like the

01:07:46   idea.

01:07:47   I like the idea of them being like bookmarks basically for where you are in the game.

01:07:50   I like that one a lot.

01:07:51   Home screen has game icons and widgets.

01:07:55   You know what, you know what we're going to do though?

01:07:57   We're going to be, we're going to try to, we're going to try to repeat the success of

01:08:01   the Apple TV and we're going to ask developers to make all of their games available in the

01:08:06   games app and not as separate tiles in the, in the interface.

01:08:09   Wow.

01:08:11   And then we'll get into a big fight with Epic because Epic won't want to do it.

01:08:15   So Apple games can only play.

01:08:19   Just like the TV app.

01:08:20   No, hear me say it.

01:08:23   Apple games can only play games from games.

01:08:26   Right?

01:08:28   Yes.

01:08:30   Where do you get your games in games?

01:08:32   On Apple games.

01:08:33   On Apple games.

01:08:35   Turn on your Apple games to get your games in games.

01:08:38   Do it.

01:08:38   What about storage?

01:08:44   Um, I think we just have to have, you know, just a bunch of soldered on storage basically.

01:08:50   Right.

01:08:50   It's not expandable.

01:08:52   Yeah.

01:08:53   It's just going to be like, you're going to have like, you're going to have one option

01:08:56   that's way too small.

01:08:57   One option.

01:08:59   Two, two, two 56 default.

01:09:03   Yeah.

01:09:05   And then you can choose for the one terabyte one.

01:09:08   All right.

01:09:09   Mm-hmm.

01:09:10   Uh, or maybe you can only get, if you want to get the ethernet model, that is only the

01:09:16   one terabyte one.

01:09:17   Yes.

01:09:19   And it's also, so ethernet is more expensive and it's also on the one terabyte model only.

01:09:26   We're going to, we're going to make people save their games in iCloud.

01:09:29   Their, their game saves.

01:09:30   Oh yeah.

01:09:31   No, but they can only be saved in iCloud.

01:09:33   So you have to pay for it.

01:09:34   Yeah.

01:09:35   Yeah.

01:09:35   Game saves only in iCloud and whatever that means.

01:09:41   You got to be an iCloud subscriber.

01:09:43   Um, what about subscriptions?

01:09:48   There's got to be a subscription for something.

01:09:51   Yeah.

01:09:52   I think that we just, we just bake an arcade and bake an arcade to this.

01:09:56   whole thing.

01:09:56   Um, and we, and we take a big cut of anybody who wants to sell a game separately.

01:10:01   Hmm.

01:10:02   Maybe we, maybe we rethink the games app and make, and make it difficult to find people's

01:10:09   games if they don't, if they don't play ball and, and they're like very, they're like very,

01:10:13   like buried in the user interface or something.

01:10:16   Exactly.

01:10:17   Exactly.

01:10:18   Uh, um, standalone games are available, but hard to find.

01:10:26   Mm-hmm.

01:10:27   Okay.

01:10:27   But.

01:10:29   And we take a big cut, hard to find, and, and, and we charge a lot.

01:10:33   An Apple.

01:10:34   A big, a big tax.

01:10:35   An Apple charges like 40% for them.

01:10:39   Sure.

01:10:40   A 40% cut.

01:10:42   Um, okay.

01:10:44   So to give you a recap for this monstrosity that we put together.

01:10:47   So it's a home console called Apple games.

01:10:50   It's disc shaped and it comes in two versions.

01:10:53   Um, however, uh, there's like a two 56 gigabyte default option and a one terabyte model option

01:11:00   that is more expensive.

01:11:01   However, ethernet is only available on the one terabyte model.

01:11:04   It comes in black.

01:11:06   Um, and it's got HDMI 2.1, but no HDMI 2.1 cable in the box.

01:11:13   There's just a power adapter in the box.

01:11:15   Um, and it can only play games from the app store.

01:11:18   It does not support side loading at all and has no USB-C ports.

01:11:23   Uh, there's a controller which has buttons.

01:11:26   These buttons have both symbols and text labels on them and they're based on SF symbols and

01:11:33   also the, the joysticks, they have symbols on them too.

01:11:36   Yes.

01:11:37   Um, this controller is low latency and it can be paired to other Apple devices and it comes

01:11:43   with a unique feature called shake to quit, which allows you to quit the game just by shaking

01:11:48   the controller.

01:11:48   Now, when you boot up Apple games, you're taken to a home screen that shows you both

01:11:53   game icons and widgets for your games.

01:11:55   And the widgets show you where you left off in a game.

01:11:58   Um, your games, your games progress can only be saved in iCloud.

01:12:02   And if you don't have an iCloud account, you cannot save your progress with Apple games.

01:12:07   Um, and the final thing we said is that standalone games are available outside of the games app,

01:12:14   but they're hard to find and Apple charges a 40% cut for those.

01:12:18   I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's wonderful.

01:12:21   I think this is a miracle of engineering right here.

01:12:24   This is, this is design and hardware coming together.

01:12:27   It's the intersection, frankly, of liberal arts and technology.

01:12:31   Yes.

01:12:31   Yes.

01:12:31   Yes.

01:12:32   It's the intersection.

01:12:33   Are we going to design before we leave a quick, a quick handheld Federico?

01:12:36   Yeah.

01:12:37   Uh, the handheld, um, I have fewer ideas for a handheld because I keep thinking about an iPhone in a

01:12:48   controller.

01:12:48   No, they're not going to do the handheld.

01:12:49   They're going to do, they're going to do the, the home console because they have the iPhone.

01:12:54   Yeah.

01:12:55   Yeah.

01:12:55   I think you're probably right.

01:12:56   I think I'm not inspired by the idea.

01:12:59   It's much more inspiring to think of this monster in your living room.

01:13:03   Yeah.

01:13:05   Yeah.

01:13:05   Yeah.

01:13:05   You know, I, and maybe here's the subscription idea for you for our console box is that of

01:13:13   course, we're going to bake an Apple TV into the thing too.

01:13:15   Right.

01:13:16   I mean, we're going to, we're going to let you watch your shows on this too.

01:13:18   Why not?

01:13:19   I, maybe we've just redesigned the Apple TV is all we've really done, but.

01:13:24   Oh yeah.

01:13:25   There is Apple TV integration.

01:13:26   Yeah.

01:13:27   For sure.

01:13:28   And of course, Apple music and all those things.

01:13:30   Yeah.

01:13:30   Yeah.

01:13:31   Yeah.

01:13:31   Okay.

01:13:32   Wow.

01:13:32   We created something horrible.

01:13:34   Um, I think we did.

01:13:36   I think we did.

01:13:37   I think that, I think I also perfect.

01:13:39   I think that the controller is the place where if anything goes sideways badly, it'll be

01:13:46   the controller.

01:13:46   Yeah.

01:13:47   Yeah.

01:13:48   Well, John, um, I think we did it.

01:13:54   I think this is a, I think we did.

01:13:55   This is an episode of connected.

01:13:57   I am going to try my best at closing this episode.

01:14:00   First of all, I want to thank our sponsors this week, open case, Squarespace and FitBot.

01:14:06   Uh, you can find all the links that we mentioned in the show notes.

01:14:10   Essentially, you're going to find all of the Mac stories links that we want you to click

01:14:14   on at relay.fm slash connected slash 570.

01:14:19   Yeah.

01:14:20   Feel free to click on those repeatedly if you'd like.

01:14:23   Yes.

01:14:23   Yes.

01:14:23   Yes.

01:14:23   Set them up, you know, with an automation that clicks on them over and over.

01:14:27   Uh, if you want to send us feedback, you can do so at connectedfeedback.com and we

01:14:31   would love for you to join connected pro where you can get longer and add free

01:14:36   episodes of connected that is getconnectedpro.co.

01:14:39   You can find me and John on Mac stories.net writing, reviewing operating systems, doing all

01:14:48   the things we do, you know, running Mac stories deals, you know, doing, making shortcuts, making

01:14:54   newsletters, all the things you can find the Mike and Steven, well, this week together

01:15:00   in Memphis, and you can, you will be able to watch them, track them down, you can track

01:15:04   and down, and you will be able to see them live for the seventh podcast-a-thon, is that

01:15:11   correct?

01:15:12   Oof.

01:15:12   Yeah, it is.

01:15:13   Seventh podcast-a-thon live.

01:15:15   Uh, I don't have my time zone correct.

01:15:18   Friday at 12 o'clock noon, Eastern U.S. time.

01:15:22   going for 12 hours live in real time, those two, plus a whole bunch of other guests.

01:15:29   It's going to be incredible.

01:15:30   So that is a, tomorrow, you know, receive your new iPhone, put on your new AirPods Pro 3 and

01:15:37   watch the podcast on live for 12 hours.

01:15:39   If you've got an iPhone Air, you will not be able to watch it for 12 hours because your

01:15:44   battery is going to die sooner than that.

01:15:48   Um, but, uh, I want to thank you, John, for helping me, uh, co-hosting this episode of

01:15:54   Connected, and, uh, we're going to pick a title next because I saved some, uh, but until

01:16:00   next time, say goodbye, John.

01:16:02   Goodbye, John.

01:16:04   Arrivederci.