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583: It Feels So Good to Be Right

 

00:00:00   We are back in our respects.

00:00:30   We're trying to bring the energy this morning because it's Monday morning.

00:00:35   Monday, Monday, Monday, Monday.

00:00:37   It's hard sometimes to do a podcast when you just woke up from a weekend.

00:00:44   But I do it every week, so it's good to be back.

00:00:47   Although, of course, it was great to be in Memphis in person.

00:00:49   Correct.

00:00:50   I have a Snell Talk question for you.

00:00:52   Yeah.

00:00:53   Nathan writes in and says,

00:00:55   I'm going to be trying curling for the first time very soon after the years of wanting to.

00:01:00   Do you have any advice for a first-time curler or so?

00:01:04   What was it that got you into the sport, Jason?

00:01:07   I have zero advice.

00:01:08   Listen to the people who are going to give you your advice about it.

00:01:11   Other than to say that it's easy to pick it up.

00:01:14   You have to learn what the rules are and how to throw the rock.

00:01:17   Almost anybody can do it.

00:01:20   You just kind of crouch down and push a rock out.

00:01:23   There's not a lot to it, and then they'll teach you the details, so pay attention.

00:01:26   What got me into it is actually it's good timing.

00:01:30   Seeing it in the Winter Olympics is how I got into it.

00:01:34   And Lauren and I would watch the Winter Olympics curling, and we were fascinated by it.

00:01:37   And we would do that every four years.

00:01:39   And I set a season pass on my TiVo at one point to get curling events.

00:01:44   And they're watchable and interesting, and we always thought about doing it, but it was always too far away.

00:01:51   And then the last Winter Olympics, four years ago, we discovered they had just opened a new facility in Oakland, which was drivable for us.

00:01:57   More drivable than the far-off South Bay, where they used to do it.

00:02:00   And so we signed up, just as Nathan has, for a tri-curling session, and that's it.

00:02:09   So we've been almost doing it for four years now, and we expect the club is gearing up for an influx of curious people around the Winter Olympics.

00:02:17   So we're trying to get that all set up so that we can make them our guests and hopefully convert some of them to become curlers, because it's fun.

00:02:28   I realize that it's such an outlier among people I know and I talk to, but it's really not any different than playing tennis or golf or bowling or whatever.

00:02:39   It's just a sport that you do a couple times a week, and this is ours.

00:02:45   So I will also say that yesterday, I was playing third, which meant that I was doing a lot of sweeping.

00:02:55   And I always do an Apple Watch workout, because curling workout is in there.

00:03:01   But it's kind of funny, because if I'm skipping, if I'm calling the shots, my heart rate doesn't go up very much.

00:03:06   But we did so much sweeping on Sunday, and I looked, and I was in zone two for a very long time, which does not usually happen.

00:03:17   That's good for the old ticker.

00:03:18   So the sweeping is really good.

00:03:21   The problem is that you sweep and sweep and sweep, and then you're expected to immediately shoot.

00:03:25   Yes.

00:03:25   And I was thinking it's like biathlon, you know, the sport where they make you ski a lot, and then you have to very precisely shoot a target.

00:03:31   That is such an incredible mixture, those two things.

00:03:35   It is bizarre, but when you think about it, you realize what it is, is they're going to get your heart rate up as high as possible, and then you have to hold absolutely still.

00:03:42   And that is a real skill, and a real physical skill.

00:03:47   And you've used your arms a bunch, too, right?

00:03:50   So, like, you've used that.

00:03:51   And you've used your arms a bunch, yeah.

00:03:52   And that's the idea, is that they're stressing you out.

00:03:54   And there's historic reasons for biathlon.

00:03:57   I think it's like soldiers in cold climates would have to be skilled at moving and shooting, right?

00:04:03   Like, anyway, curling, you know, if you've swept a lot and then you have to do a shot, it is very hard sometimes to not just chuck that thing as fast as possible, because your heart is raising.

00:04:14   You're going to be like, settle, settle it down.

00:04:16   Anyway, I find it fun.

00:04:18   And I think lots of people would find it fun.

00:04:19   So, Nathan, I hope you find it fun.

00:04:21   And everybody else out there, maybe check out the curling at the Winter Olympics or just see if you've got a curling club near you.

00:04:30   They will almost certainly have a lesson series or an intro class.

00:04:36   And I will say this about the curling culture.

00:04:37   It is incredibly friendly and welcoming.

00:04:40   That's what it's all about.

00:04:42   Nathan, right back in.

00:04:44   Let us know how it goes once you've done your course or a taste of that session.

00:04:49   I'd love to know.

00:04:50   If you have a snow talk question that you would like to hear us begin an episode with in the future, just go to upgradefeedback.com and you can send yours in.

00:04:58   September is ending.

00:05:01   It is that time, which means our campaign for the wonderful kids of St. Jude Children's Research Hospital is drawing to a close, but there is still time left.

00:05:11   We're actually going to be keeping the campaign open until, I think, next Monday, but this will probably be the last time that we ask for your donations.

00:05:19   Usually, there's like a few days where, like, donation matching is rolling in.

00:05:24   Donation matching, by the way, very important.

00:05:27   If you make a donation at stjude.org slash relay, click the blue button when you make your donation for donation matching.

00:05:34   Because your employer may have St. Jude in their donation matching program, and it will double your donation, which is fantastic.

00:05:43   You don't even have to do anything except click that button and, I think, fill out just a small amount of information, and your donation can be doubled.

00:05:49   We do this throughout all of September to raise support and awareness for Childhood Cancer Awareness Month.

00:05:56   And we have been, as a community, raising money for St. Jude since 2019.

00:06:04   So, this is the seventh time we've done this.

00:06:07   I will never understand how that math works, but it is the seventh time that we've done this.

00:06:11   And in that time, Jason Snow, I am very happy to report that as of today, as a community, we have now passed over $4.7 million raised for the kids of St. Jude.

00:06:24   That happened this morning.

00:06:25   As we are very close to the time of recording this to $640,000 raised this year, thanks to the incredible generosity of our audience.

00:06:37   But they do it, you know, people get involved for a very good reason.

00:06:41   It's because this stuff is super, super important.

00:06:44   And St. Jude is really at the forefront of doing this work.

00:06:46   And it's cancer research.

00:06:48   It's childhood cancer research.

00:06:49   It's prevention.

00:06:50   It's cures.

00:06:51   It's the whole nine yards.

00:06:52   You know, looking after the families and also sharing the information that they have, including medicine worldwide.

00:06:59   So, for example, in April of 2025, St. Jude announced that childhood cancer medicines have been delivered to five countries, Mongolia, Uzbekistan, Ecuador, Nepal, and Zambia.

00:07:08   This effort is part of the Global Platform for Access to Childhood Cancer Medicines, a collaboration between St. Jude, the World Health Organization, and other global partners.

00:07:17   And this initiative aims to reach more than 120,000 children in 50 countries in the next seven years.

00:07:24   And, you know, I know we talk about this a lot through the month, but we do it for a reason.

00:07:28   It's important to all of us.

00:07:29   It's important to us to raise money, to, in part, thank St. Jude for saving Josiah Hackett's life, but also for, as the years have gone on, because of all of the things that we see that they do close at hand.

00:07:44   Absolutely.

00:07:45   You know, firsthand.

00:07:47   And we got to see Domino's Village this time, where I just, people have heard this throughout the month.

00:07:52   And, and, but just to restate this, they, they have, the coverage that, for the families who have children with cancer, we talk a lot about, like, they don't get any bills.

00:08:07   And you think, oh, isn't that nice not to get a doctor's bill.

00:08:10   But it's like, they pay for travel.

00:08:12   They put them up.

00:08:13   They, they, they don't just put them up in hotels.

00:08:15   They, they build buildings with apartments.

00:08:20   And so Domino's Village is a great example of, we went in there, you know, one, two, and three bedroom apartments with kitchens attached to a facility with lots of external rooms and a cafeteria and an outside play area.

00:08:36   And that's just there for families who are, are staying at St. Jude, I think presumably in that facility for a little more extended periods of time.

00:08:44   That means their kids are having treatment for a week or two or three or four, or, you know, even, even longer.

00:08:52   And, and they get a place to live because they don't have a place to live in Memphis and that's covered, right?

00:08:59   Like all of it is covered.

00:09:01   So St. Jude is covering the families and they're paying the doctors and they're paying the buildings full of researchers to do studies because they're not just treating kids, but they're also doing research to create new treatments.

00:09:14   It really is the more time I spend there, the more I realized that it is an A to Z, uh, kind of anti-cancer organization.

00:09:23   It is covering all bases and the patient families don't pay a dime.

00:09:29   It's amazing.

00:09:30   So if for any reason you've been thinking to yourself, I've been, I've got to donate this year, I've got to donate this year and you haven't, this is your last call to do that.

00:09:40   Yeah.

00:09:40   This is us waking you up, uh, when September ends.

00:09:43   Exactly.

00:09:44   That is, that is a great way to speak.

00:09:46   Uh, please go to stjude.org slash relay.

00:09:49   Just give whatever you can.

00:09:51   It doesn't matter how big, how small it truly doesn't because, you know, we could have tens of thousands of people giving small gifts and that goes an awful long way.

00:10:00   I would tell you, in fact, we actually do, that is what happens.

00:10:02   I would say that.

00:10:03   We do.

00:10:03   That is what happens.

00:10:04   We do.

00:10:04   We do.

00:10:05   This community is not made up of a whole bunch of moneybags who are tossing in millions of dollars.

00:10:10   It's not CEOs of, I mean, there are some people who do big bucks.

00:10:13   We do big donations and it's amazing.

00:10:15   But when you talk to the people at St. Jude, what they will tell you is, uh, Relay's community is remarkable because, and so many of these online communities, the gamers that we meet with the game streamers.

00:10:26   Uh, at the, at the play live event that they do in the spring that we go to where we're the outliers because we're the tech podcasters among all these video game streamers.

00:10:34   But like the remarkable thing is we're all about those, those folks and us about bringing communities of people together who don't have a lot of money, but we'll reach into their pocket and make even, you know, lots and lots and lots of small notations make a difference too.

00:10:48   It doesn't always have to be, you know, the CEO of a big company who rolls in and puts his name on a sign.

00:10:54   Right?

00:10:54   Like it's just any big corporation.

00:10:55   Like, you know, I see, I do see this in other communities that we're part of, like they do a fundraiser and the platform that they're streaming to will donate a bunch of money or whatever.

00:11:05   But no, this is actually people.

00:11:07   This is our listeners who are connected with what we care about and then make donations.

00:11:11   And then together we, we're like hunting down on $5 million raised in this short time.

00:11:17   So, um, stjew.org slash relay, please give whatever you can.

00:11:22   And we really appreciate the efforts that you've shown this year.

00:11:25   Thank you so much.

00:11:25   So on last week's episode, we had a question about companies that could make Mac clones.

00:11:33   And I had a suggestion, you didn't have one, and I asked for a listener.

00:11:39   Can I be clear here?

00:11:41   Yes.

00:11:42   Just to go back, we'll talk about this more in a minute, but just to go back to last week's episode, which was great.

00:11:49   And I think it was kind of giddy and goofy and fun and all that.

00:11:52   But to be clear about the level of brain power you and I were operating on.

00:11:56   Yes.

00:11:58   We had been in Memphis for almost a week, including a couple of rehearsal days, a 12 hour long podcast-a-thon day, followed up by an early wake-up call the next day to go to sit in the 90 degree humidity in the sun to watch a college football game.

00:12:16   And predating the recording of that episode, we spent like an hour trying to figure out how we were going to shoot video and hook up all this stuff and move furniture in your room and all of that.

00:12:28   I'm just saying, this follow-up is really good and I appreciate everybody here for supporting us because I was definitely a bear of very little brain during that episode.

00:12:38   Especially, again, my brain was like whirring on the iPhone and stuff.

00:12:43   I was thinking about the iPhone and stuff.

00:12:44   And then there's this question of like, what company would make a Mac clone?

00:12:48   And it so requires creative thought on the spur of the moment.

00:12:52   And friends, I didn't have it.

00:12:55   So, Mike, who had it for me?

00:12:57   Who's got my back here?

00:12:58   Joel wrote in and suggested Dyson.

00:13:01   Mm-hmm.

00:13:02   Great.

00:13:03   Joseph suggested Casio.

00:13:05   There are a ton of different vibes here, by the way.

00:13:09   Amazing.

00:13:09   Semikami wrote in to suggest Nintendo.

00:13:12   And a few people say Nintendo.

00:13:14   I don't think I would like Nintendo.

00:13:16   They also, I think this is an S-tier suggestion, love from.

00:13:20   Just let Johnny do it again.

00:13:22   You know, like what would he do?

00:13:24   That's cheating.

00:13:24   It's glass.

00:13:25   You made it out of glass this time.

00:13:27   That's cheating.

00:13:27   Simon wants Yeti, the cooler people, to make it.

00:13:32   I guess they would, you know, new kind of cooling system.

00:13:34   I guess you could put in a Mac if you just fill it up.

00:13:36   I mean, you don't want to insulate, though.

00:13:39   You don't want to make a thermos with a Mac inside of it because it would get real hot.

00:13:43   Yeah.

00:13:45   We have Chris recommended a company called Joseph Joseph, which I don't know if you know

00:13:49   who they are, but I would say they are akin to OXO.

00:13:54   They make really nice kitchen and like kind of appliances.

00:13:59   And didn't I say, I think from the barest reaches of my mind, I said OXO at one point.

00:14:04   I think this is where Chris recommended that.

00:14:06   I would just say there's a point of order in the Discord from Zoe saying Mac clone doesn't

00:14:11   imply nice.

00:14:11   Those 90s clones really weren't about design.

00:14:14   I would say, Zoe, that everybody here is suggesting what they would like, not what they think would

00:14:19   be bad.

00:14:19   What they would like.

00:14:20   That was the question was what you would like, not what would it be.

00:14:23   This isn't who's making the worst products.

00:14:25   This is making the good products.

00:14:26   Joseph.

00:14:27   It makes me think that what I should have said last week is obviously Marc Jacobs, because

00:14:34   then we could have had like a Mac by Mac from Marc Jacobs, courtesy of Marc Jacobs by Mac concerted

00:14:41   of Marc Jacobs.

00:14:41   And that would be hilarious.

00:14:43   I'm still not.

00:14:44   You know, I don't.

00:14:45   Don't write in.

00:14:45   It's like an Apple with an Apple in the Apple logo.

00:14:47   And then it says Apple and the A is an Apple.

00:14:50   Like that.

00:14:51   I don't need clarification on this.

00:14:53   So don't write in.

00:14:54   I don't believe that label is real.

00:14:55   You know, like that's been going around the internet forever.

00:14:57   I don't believe anybody actually made that label.

00:14:59   It doesn't matter now if it's real or not.

00:15:01   It doesn't.

00:15:02   It's in history.

00:15:03   Sam recommended Bethesda, the video game company, because of Fallout.

00:15:07   So they make Fallout, like the way that technology is in Fallout.

00:15:10   Oh, so they design a weird Fallout tech thing.

00:15:12   That kind of like 50s era, like future tech, that kind of thing.

00:15:17   Yeah.

00:15:17   Yeah.

00:15:18   I like it.

00:15:18   And it's recommended Fellow.

00:15:20   Fellow make like coffee gear.

00:15:23   I think you may have a Fellow product that you might not know that you have, Jason, which

00:15:29   was the WWDC 2023 insulated coffee mug things.

00:15:34   They're in the swag bags.

00:15:37   Which one is that?

00:15:39   The car to move mug.

00:15:41   Oh, yes.

00:15:42   I do have that.

00:15:43   I bought another one.

00:15:43   That's the one that David Smith bought.

00:15:45   Yep.

00:15:45   I have two of those because I have my WWDC one and I liked it so much.

00:15:49   It is my favorite travel mug, period.

00:15:52   So I bought a second.

00:15:53   So imagine them making a laptop.

00:15:55   I mean, they could stick a whole Mac Pro inside one of those little canisters if they wanted

00:16:01   to.

00:16:02   Exactly.

00:16:03   Stefan recommended Framework.

00:16:06   So they're the PC people who make really repairable things.

00:16:10   Interesting.

00:16:11   Steven recommended Bellroy.

00:16:13   They're my favorite like wallet company.

00:16:16   I have no idea what that would look like.

00:16:18   I have two of their backpacks.

00:16:20   I just don't know what it would be.

00:16:21   Is it Backpack Mac?

00:16:22   Backpack.

00:16:23   Jonathan recommended Peak Design.

00:16:24   So I guess the two of them together could make Backpack Macs.

00:16:27   Tom recommended Unify.

00:16:31   So they're Ubiquiti people.

00:16:32   I know you're not a fan of Ubiquiti.

00:16:34   I heard about that recently.

00:16:35   And Peter recommended the pen brand Lamy.

00:16:38   Specifically, Jason, you will like this because they do multiple limited edition colors a year.

00:16:43   Yeah.

00:16:44   So it'll be all about colors.

00:16:45   Let's do that.

00:16:45   I think we're all in agreement that a company that is going to have lots of colors would be a winner.

00:16:52   Yep.

00:16:53   And actually, that was one of the things that Stefan said because Framework just did a bunch of colors on their laptops.

00:16:58   And I'll put in Cortex brand.

00:17:00   Oh, thank you.

00:17:02   That's great.

00:17:03   Yes.

00:17:04   What could they do?

00:17:05   What could they do?

00:17:05   Just made a paper.

00:17:06   It's a paper Mac.

00:17:07   You mentioned a minute ago about us setting up for video.

00:17:10   What is your final verdict on Final Cut Camera and Final Cut for iPad for making last week's episode?

00:17:16   Because we didn't know at that point.

00:17:17   Obviously, we didn't know.

00:17:18   It was like left as a cliffhanger for the listener about we didn't know what was going to happen.

00:17:23   I'm going to write about this, too, I think, because I have not seen a lot of real-world experience with this.

00:17:32   Because remember, in, I would say, spring of 24, Apple did the, because it was the thing where I went to New York,

00:17:40   and they did a demo in New York at their thing about the new iPad and Final Cut Camera.

00:17:45   And so the idea was you set up an iPad and a bunch of cameras, and you can use the iPad to, like, view what the cameras are seeing live and adjust their settings and all of that,

00:17:53   which I was looking forward to doing while we recorded until we realized that we couldn't connect a third camera.

00:17:59   And so I had to use the iPad as a camera, which means that I couldn't control it while we were going.

00:18:04   It was not ideal.

00:18:06   That's my negative part of it is that we tried everything, you and I.

00:18:10   Something just didn't work.

00:18:11   And, like, it just, you know, you could say, like, maybe because it was my phone and Jason's camera, but I had three phones or whatever.

00:18:18   But we had another one of your phones in there that didn't work.

00:18:20   So who knows why?

00:18:22   It was not great.

00:18:23   We tried everything from both ends there and, like, nope, did not work.

00:18:28   So that was a negative.

00:18:29   But so what we got out of it, for people who don't know, the other thing that was funny is I described this to people and they didn't know this thing existed.

00:18:35   So they announced it.

00:18:36   It's a thing that Apple announced that's pretty cool and that nobody seems to have remembered, which is Final Cut Camera is not just a camera app on your iPhone.

00:18:44   If you use it with Final Cut Pro on the iPad, there is a mode in which Final Cut Camera sends a, streams a signal to the iPad.

00:18:53   You can have up to four cameras connected to that iPad.

00:18:55   It's by Wi-Fi Direct, so you don't need to worry about the bad hotel Wi-Fi.

00:18:59   It uses Wi-Fi Direct to stream these things to the iPad if you can connect them.

00:19:03   And the iPad will be able to remotely control the settings on the cameras and set what they, what, how they're all set up and then record.

00:19:12   And it streams it all live to the iPad and then at the end when you're done, it's, it streams the full quality version.

00:19:20   It's like a proxy version, but it will record super high, you know, 4K, I think HDR and transfer that afterward.

00:19:27   And honestly, by the time we finished Upgrade Plus, because I stopped when we were done with Upgrade, by the time we finished Upgrade Plus, all of the high-res video files had transferred.

00:19:38   And I was ready to walk out the door, which I did because I had to go to the airport.

00:19:42   At the airport, I went to my favorite place in the Memphis airport, which is, there's a little brew pub by gate six.

00:19:49   They've got a bunch of Adirondack chairs by the window.

00:19:51   You can look out on the airport and there's a QR code and they'll bring you a beer.

00:19:54   Done.

00:19:57   I'm sitting there waiting for my flight and I get out the iPad and my AirPods and I start editing.

00:20:05   And Mike, by the time I went to board my flight, the beer was gone and the podcast was about 80% done.

00:20:14   And the way we did this is you gave me your audio files.

00:20:18   So you had two processed audio files of you and me that we sent on to Jim, our audio editor.

00:20:25   So I had those and I had the video.

00:20:27   So in the Final Cut project, you get a multicam clip, which basically is like up to, in this case, up to four.

00:20:34   It was three different cameras, two iPhones and the iPad itself, which was the two-shot.

00:20:41   And, uh, and then I added the audio of you and me.

00:20:44   So I had sort of those tracks in there.

00:20:45   And then I got Jamie to send me the image of the, you know, the upgrade logo.

00:20:50   And I put in our upgrade theme song audio files.

00:20:53   And I did all of that part too.

00:20:54   But the key central part of this is I can see the multicam clip and there, and you can bring up like a little multicam switcher.

00:21:00   And then there's like the two audio files because it was both of us on separate audio files.

00:21:06   I could see when you talked and I could see when I talked.

00:21:10   And that meant I didn't have to watch the whole show in order to direct what camera we were going to use.

00:21:15   I was able to just see, oh, well, we, we both go back and forth here for a while.

00:21:19   That'll be in the two shot.

00:21:20   And then I monologue for a while.

00:21:22   That'll be the one shot.

00:21:23   And then Mike monologues for a while.

00:21:24   And there were a couple of moments, uh, where I opened a can, uh, during an ad read.

00:21:30   I want to recommend if you, even if you don't want to watch the episode, I recommend going to, and I'll say if you're, uh, if you're an upgrade plus subscriber, then you wouldn't have seen this.

00:21:41   You didn't hear it.

00:21:42   Uh, they're about 19 minutes and 35 seconds.

00:21:46   That's, that's the time code of the episode.

00:21:48   I start reading an ad.

00:21:50   Jason decides he wants to open a drink.

00:21:52   Uh, and I usually put, I usually do this.

00:21:55   I mute my microphone, but I couldn't do it.

00:21:57   So I did it under the table.

00:21:58   It didn't work.

00:21:59   It was very loud.

00:22:00   And at that point I just, I just opened it over the table and stared at you and you, and so that moment, which was very funny, that's an example because I, I had just lived it.

00:22:10   I made a more detailed set of choices for the camera angles.

00:22:15   Cause I thought it would be funny to show me smiling at you and then show you.

00:22:19   And then, so I did that in a few places, but mostly I was able to just use our audio tracks and, and get the, and get the back and forth ready to go.

00:22:26   I finished it like 20 minutes into the flight, uh, to, to Dallas from Memphis.

00:22:31   It was so fast to do that.

00:22:33   Um, there are things that I did wrong.

00:22:35   Um, I was worried about the speed of the transfer and the fact that I had to get to the airport.

00:22:40   So I set the, uh, I set the iPhones to do, uh, SDR at 1080 instead of 4k HDR.

00:22:47   My mistake is because we were so flustered because we, we ended up having to use the iPad.

00:22:52   I didn't set the iPad to record at SDR, which meant I had an HDR project with SDR video in it.

00:22:59   As a result, the, the video is dimmer than I would like it to be.

00:23:04   And I did not have the time or inclination to figure out how to adjust the brightness on clips in final cut on an iPad.

00:23:12   It just, there is a point, but, but I will say this, um, it was easy to do.

00:23:18   It looks pretty good.

00:23:19   I think the alternative was literally just setting up a phone on a tripod and doing a two shot of it.

00:23:24   And it's so much better than that.

00:23:26   And I will say this going forward.

00:23:30   If I need to capture video in a live setting, this is how I will do it because it really was quite good.

00:23:35   Yeah.

00:23:36   And the way it works, it does, you don't, they don't need to be your phones.

00:23:39   They just need to, you just need to pair them.

00:23:41   So assuming that we could successfully pair the phones, it was a, it worked out really well.

00:23:46   So it's a cool feature, very limited use, right?

00:23:49   You have to, you have to have a multi-cam thing that you want to record.

00:23:54   But, um, if you do, and you have an iPad and some iPhones, final cut camera is free.

00:24:00   You can also, you can subscribe to final cut pro for iPad for $5 a month and then just cancel it after a month.

00:24:06   That's what I did.

00:24:08   Um, that's pretty cool.

00:24:10   So like thumbs up to Apple for that.

00:24:12   Um, and, and you can do, I recomposed the two shot of you and me cause it was weird.

00:24:17   Cause I wasn't able to compose it with me sitting in the chair and I was able to zoom in a little bit and figure out how to do that again, figure out how to do that on an iPad.

00:24:25   Cause I know how to do that on a Mac and final cut pro, but not on the iPad.

00:24:28   Um, and yeah, so it was a, it was a cool experiment that also generated a unique video clip or video, uh, episode of upgrade for those who partake of such a thing, but it was fun to do just as an experiment as well.

00:24:42   So, yeah, very cool.

00:24:44   Uh, we had an anonymous, uh, person right in to say, I worked for one of the big three us telecom carriers and have heard that over the first 72 hours of pre-orders, the air made up less than 5% of sales.

00:24:58   Uh, this also matches a statistic that MKBHD shared and in his video about the 17 pro from dbrand and like dbrand their case sales, 5% of that makeup was the air.

00:25:11   Uh, he didn't do a very good job of talking about this statistic in his video, I think to kind of, he extrapolated it out further than I, I think makes sense.

00:25:20   Um, you also wrote an article about this.

00:25:23   This is one of the reasons I wanted to tell this together, uh, on Macworld about kind of like how the shape of iPhone sales and I want to really quote from, from your, uh, piece.

00:25:33   The problem with reports about early iPhone sales is, isn't that they're untrue, but that they're out of context.

00:25:40   The type of people who rush into Apple stores in mid-September to buy new iPhones are not the same people who are buying iPhones the rest of the year.

00:25:48   Yeah.

00:25:48   I, I, I think it's, you know, it's that thing where on one level you get a sample and if it's a representative sample, that's all you need.

00:25:57   And people are always skeptical about that, but having seen how like online polls work in representative communities, I will, I will say it's not always the case.

00:26:06   But generally if I open an online poll somewhere, you know, or I'm a participant in one and I can see it, you, you, you do that for a day and then you can leave it open for another week.

00:26:17   And unless there's, unless somebody like brings in their community to skew the results or something.

00:26:22   The point is, once you reach a sample size that is representative, the numbers aren't going to change.

00:26:27   Uh, 500 people who are a representative sample come and vote on something and then you get 5,000.

00:26:32   I'm telling you the percentages won't, won't change.

00:26:35   They won't.

00:26:36   They won't because it's a representative sample.

00:26:38   This is not a representative sample is my argument here.

00:26:41   It's partially a representative sample.

00:26:44   It's not nothing.

00:26:45   It's not like the air is going to suddenly flip over and be half the sales.

00:26:48   That's not true.

00:26:49   And, and, and I will also say the air is in a slot that is the worst selling of the four because it's always been the worst selling of the four.

00:26:56   And one of the things we don't know here is, is this worse or better than the plus or the mini?

00:27:01   But what I will say is I strongly suspect that the 17 and the air will sell better from December on than they are right now.

00:27:16   And that's because the people who buy iPhones in September and October are people who really want the new iPhone.

00:27:23   It's a lot of our community.

00:27:24   Our community is very much skewed to the pro phones.

00:27:29   And so I think this is worth watching because we don't know that, that, um, it may be a flop.

00:27:34   It may not be.

00:27:35   It is.

00:27:36   It was, like I said, it was already in the slot of two phones that if you want, you can call flops that were not good enough for Apple to maintain.

00:27:43   But I feel like the air is going to get a little bit of wind in its sails from people seeing it and also from random, this effect, the random people on the street who need a new iPhone and they roll in, in March to an Apple store and they go, whoa, what's this?

00:28:00   And they're upgrading from an older phone and they just, and, and because of their priorities, they, they, it's not as much of a compromise and they really like how, how thin and light it is.

00:28:10   And that, that is a, that is a, if this is a phone that is all about the vibes and not about the specs, then the people in our community who are all about the specs, of course, are not going to like it, but that there is a, probably a broader community.

00:28:24   The point of my pie chart that I did is 40% of iPhone sale or iPhone revenue happens in Q3 and Q4 of Apple's fiscal year.

00:28:34   In other words, the six months furthest away from the iPhone launch.

00:28:38   And that's something that's always important to keep in mind is that first quarter, 36%, it's true.

00:28:45   And that's the holiday quarter, but then it's 24 and then 20 and then 20.

00:28:52   So a lot of iPhones are sold, not now.

00:28:56   In fact, you could say 64% of iPhones sold are roughly two thirds are not now in this high season for iPhones.

00:29:08   It's absolutely the highest season.

00:29:09   It's very seasonal.

00:29:10   I think because of the newness of it and because of the holidays, I think that those are the things that drive it, but the rest of the year, they're still selling iPhones.

00:29:19   And I think, and I have no figures to back this up.

00:29:23   This is just kind of my logic here is I suspect the numbers really change.

00:29:29   This may also be one of the reasons that Apple's okay with doing a spring release of some of the iPhones that we've talked about over the last few years is the 16e came out in the spring.

00:29:38   And the 16e, like my mother and my mother-in-law bought a 16e, like they don't care.

00:29:45   They just needed a new phone and that was a good phone for them.

00:29:49   So I think the composition will change.

00:29:53   We'll see what happens in terms of the air in the long run.

00:29:56   I think the air is a, we could argue that the air is a strategic product for Apple.

00:30:02   That is also a product and we'll see how it does, but maybe its existence is more like nobody should buy a product because it's strategic for Apple.

00:30:12   That is the truth, but we have to think about that in our analysis of it.

00:30:17   So more, more later on all of this, but I just, I wanted to, I did go through the numbers in a way that I had never done it before just to see like what percentage of iPhone sales really do happen in that peak period.

00:30:28   And you could say, yes, there's a week or two that's actually in Q3, um, uh, the right at the very beginning.

00:30:34   And it's like, it's never a whole lot, but there is some there, but you know, even if you say that 20% of the sales are in Q4 where there is nothing happening.

00:30:42   And it's like, that's a lot of phones that just get sold when nothing is happening.

00:30:46   When we're just about to have new ones.

00:30:48   Yeah.

00:30:49   Yeah.

00:30:49   Right.

00:30:50   And the clock is ticking.

00:30:51   Yeah.

00:30:51   So where everybody in theory can, and most people do know there's a new iPhone every year,

00:30:57   but they're still buying them anyway.

00:30:59   They still buy them in Q2 and Q3 and, uh, and Q4.

00:31:04   So anyway, that's the, uh, that, that was my, I wanted to check and see because I knew that that was the case, but I wanted to put numbers on it of, of how, even when the iPhone is seasonal and everybody in our community feels like they're buying a new iPhone.

00:31:18   There are an awful lot of people who buy new iPhones in March and May and July, even though it's almost September in July, they're still just buying a, they just need a new iPhone.

00:31:30   They don't care because they haven't bought an iPhone in five years.

00:31:32   So it's new to them.

00:31:32   And, and it's something for us.

00:31:34   I think it's something for us in the tech forward bubble to keep in mind that there are some people who just don't care like we care.

00:31:42   And, um, they are a huge driver of iPhone sales.

00:31:46   So Apple cares.

00:31:47   Yeah.

00:31:47   My, my kind of gut feeling on the air is that it, it will outsell the plus and the mini purely because people are talking about this phone.

00:32:02   Like content is being made about it.

00:32:05   People are talking about it.

00:32:06   I don't remember the last time anyone really put that much attention in talking about the iPhone plus model.

00:32:12   It's like, I don't even really know if you would know it existed.

00:32:15   I don't know how much of this is, is now kind of received wisdom and narrative versus reality, but the story goes, this is the, there's a good rest is history thing, Mike.

00:32:27   It's the, you know, stories tell us that it's the, that's the cue when the historians are like, oh, this is probably made up.

00:32:35   Um, the, the narrative goes that there are certain markets and those stats were from an American carrier, right?

00:32:41   The, the stories go that in certain markets, new looking phones sell better because there's a greater element of desire to be seen with, or to have, I don't want to judge why, but like to have.

00:32:57   A different looking phone.

00:32:59   And so if you have a really amazing iPhone, but it looks exactly the same as last year's, there's less motivation to update.

00:33:04   And if that's true in certain markets, presumably the air is going to sell better in those markets.

00:33:12   And I would not be surprised if we heard that the air actually sells better.

00:33:16   Of course, the biggest market that is part of that narrative has issues with e-sims.

00:33:21   It can't sell it in China.

00:33:23   That's what I was about to mention.

00:33:25   Not yet, but, but they will presumably.

00:33:28   They will.

00:33:29   We'll see.

00:33:30   They will.

00:33:30   Just got to get there.

00:33:31   We'll see.

00:33:34   This episode is brought to you by eCAM.

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00:34:06   Jason, we were just talking through charts and quarterly stuff.

00:34:09   When you do your live streams for every quarterly earnings results, you're using eCAM, right?

00:34:16   Yep, that's right.

00:34:17   We use eCAM Live.

00:34:18   I get Dan Morin in either on Zoom, which it integrates with, or on eCAM's own video call platform, which they have connected to live.

00:34:29   You can choose either one.

00:34:30   And then I got the charts in a window, and I've laid out the whole canvas there, and it's a really friendly experience.

00:34:36   And we do that for the Total Party Kill streams, too.

00:34:39   I have a layout for that.

00:34:41   And I actually have multiple YouTube channels connected to it, and I have multiple layouts.

00:34:48   What are they called?

00:34:49   Profiles in eCAM Live, something like that, where I've got sort of like pre-laid out for the D&D with all the branding, all the graphics, and for six colors with all the graphics.

00:34:59   And so I can get that all set up fairly quickly.

00:35:01   And yeah, it's great.

00:35:02   It's my personal choice.

00:35:06   I've used a bunch of these options, and I like eCAM Live because it feels so familiar to me.

00:35:12   It's a great Mac app, and it feels like it, and I feel like there's no compromise in terms of performance.

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00:36:20   So when we spoke last week, Jason, your iPhone review units had not yet arrived of you.

00:36:27   They were on your way to your home, and we were in a hotel in Memphis, Tennessee, which is not where your phones were.

00:36:33   So I want to get an update from you.

00:36:35   What have we got?

00:36:36   What are we using?

00:36:37   What are we thinking?

00:36:39   I've got the Air.

00:36:42   I've got the Pro Max.

00:36:43   I've got the 17.

00:36:44   I bought myself a Pro, so I have that.

00:36:49   I've got a cross-body strap that hasn't come out of the box.

00:36:52   I've got cases that haven't come out of the box.

00:36:54   I have not gotten to that point.

00:36:55   But what I have done is, when it came last Monday, I transferred the Air from my old phone.

00:37:05   So I have been using the iPhone Air for a week.

00:37:08   That's my primary.

00:37:09   I feel like I probably know the answer to this, but I'll ask it anyway.

00:37:13   Why have you gone with the Air?

00:37:16   It's the most interesting phone.

00:37:17   It's the newest thing, right?

00:37:19   Look, if I have to prioritize, based on my interest and the interests of the world, a phone that is new and interesting in a lot of ways, especially considering that I have to make—this is the case of anybody who isn't an embargo reviewer, right?

00:37:39   Embargo reviewers are breaking news.

00:37:40   Their opinions are news because they're the first outside opinions allowed.

00:37:45   Everybody else has to find an angle.

00:37:48   And I don't know what my angle is, but it's like, well, I'm going to start with the most interesting phone, which is this Air.

00:37:56   And I had a week, and I've started to—the parts of my brain—somebody was asking me last week about it, and I was like, I don't know.

00:38:03   I just haven't gotten there yet.

00:38:05   I think, you know, yesterday I was thinking, I think I actually could write something about the Air now because I spent a week with it.

00:38:12   And then I can move on because, you know, I'm looking forward to moving on to my, you know, magical orange thing that I've got here in my hand right now, which I haven't even turned on.

00:38:24   I bought it.

00:38:25   I took it out of the box.

00:38:26   I haven't even turned it on yet because I've been focused on the Air.

00:38:29   Because, yeah, it is—for specialists like us, even, it's the most interesting because it's the most novel.

00:38:37   I'm not saying anything beyond that, but it is—it's the most novel.

00:38:42   I mean, I guess on this podcast I will say more about that.

00:38:45   But that was the decision point when I got them was, well, of course it's going to be the Air.

00:38:51   That's got to be what it is because I've got to try it.

00:38:54   Yeah, and it's novel in ways that I don't necessarily think that we would have assumed.

00:39:02   Like, it is a very capable phone in a way that maybe it didn't need to be to still do what it's doing, right, which is to be thin and light.

00:39:13   It didn't have to have an A19 Pro in it.

00:39:16   It didn't have to have ProMotion always on display.

00:39:19   There are things this phone has which are, if they didn't have them, we would have excused it because it was so thin and light, I feel like.

00:39:29   I think the ProMotion—I mean, this is the year that ProMotion and Always On came to the 17 as well.

00:39:37   Yep.

00:39:38   And I don't know whether this is connected or not, but one of the thoughts that I've had is that if you're trying to induce Air purchases from Pro users, which I don't know if they are or not.

00:39:56   I mean, I would imagine Apple makes more profit on a Pro or a Pro Max than on an Air because presumably the margins on this are worse for now.

00:40:05   It would have to be. It's brand new, right? The amount of R&D that went into the things is going to mess it up.

00:40:11   Exactly. I mean, it's hard to measure because they're also, I think, very clearly headed in the direction for the whole line.

00:40:16   And this investment in this design is investing in lots of technologies that are going in other places.

00:40:21   But I think if you didn't have the Always On display in ProMotion, it would be almost impossible to make a case for anybody who is a Pro user to consider the Air instead.

00:40:34   I think they did—this is—I don't know if this is the reason, but this was the perfect year to do that, bringing down at the screen and having everybody get the selfie camera.

00:40:46   All the things that make the 17 so much better than the 16 also make the Air a more viable product than it would have otherwise.

00:40:54   I think—or to put it another way, for $1,000, this thing better have a lot of good features, right?

00:41:02   It better not be as much of a compromise as the 17 or the 16 was for sure, right?

00:41:08   Like, if it was that, if it was literally compromised like the 16, it's just a much harder sell.

00:41:14   The more you take out of it, the harder the sell it is.

00:41:16   So I think it was necessary.

00:41:19   The Pro chip is—I mean, it doesn't matter.

00:41:22   That part doesn't matter so much because even the standard chip is so solid that it doesn't really matter, I think.

00:41:28   The camera matters, and I think the camera will be what drive people away from it.

00:41:33   The battery life matters.

00:41:34   I think that that will drive some people away from it, but at least they got the screen right.

00:41:40   I want to come back to camera and battery life.

00:41:44   I mean, the things that people have hung up on, but I kind of want to get your feeling on the—just the overall feel of the device, the thinness, the lightness, the screen size.

00:41:52   Like, what has been your experience making this your primary phone for the last seven days?

00:41:57   Yeah, I love how thin it is.

00:42:00   I love how light it is.

00:42:02   Because I transferred all of my Overcast podcasts that were loaded to my Apple Watch, the downloaded ones were gone.

00:42:12   So it was going to have to re-download them all.

00:42:14   Just a quirk of how that's set up.

00:42:18   And so I walked the dog with my iPhone in my pocket, which I try not to do.

00:42:24   And it was a really nice experience.

00:42:29   And I think it's a combination of it being thin and light and also maybe a little wider, so it actually kind of fills my pocket width-wise a little bit, so it's not rattling around as much.

00:42:39   But it was—I forgot that it was there.

00:42:42   I mean, I forgot it was in my pocket, and I never felt that way with a pro.

00:42:44   So that was really nice.

00:42:46   Holding it in my hand, you know, just between my fingers, holding it in my hand, it just feels so good.

00:42:53   That thinness, it has a science fiction almost quality to it, the idea that I'm just holding a bare screen.

00:42:58   And yeah, there's a bump at the top, but I don't hold it at the bump, except if I want to get some extra leverage, in which case I put my finger up at the top,

00:43:05   and I'm at the bottom of the little bump for some extra leverage.

00:43:10   However, speaking of extra leverage, I will say, this is a wider phone than the Pro, right?

00:43:17   It's on the way to being a Pro Max.

00:43:19   And while the screen is really nice, as somebody who's been using a Pro for the last couple of years, up from the Mini,

00:43:27   I have found it awkward to hold.

00:43:32   Now, maybe I'll get used to it.

00:43:33   I think there's some muscle memory going on there, but it also reminds me of when I've used some other larger phones,

00:43:38   where I feel like I'm doing a lot of, like, shimmying with my fingers and propping with my back index finger.

00:43:46   And I don't think about how often I try to use my phone one-handed, but this week I've been thinking about it a lot,

00:43:58   because I've struggled to use it one-handed, because of the way everything, the grip is different, and it's wider,

00:44:05   and I struggle to get to the top, and I'm trying to shimmy the phone up in my hands so I can tap with my thumb.

00:44:10   And then my thumb doesn't quite reach, because it's, you know, over, too far away, because the phone is wider.

00:44:17   And that's, I was surprised by that.

00:44:19   That's the aspect of the ergonomics that I didn't really realize, is it's a wider phone, and I can feel it.

00:44:24   Yeah, I, in using the Air, I am reminded of the reason that I switched from the Max to the Pro, right?

00:44:35   And I'm very aware of the fact that the Pro Max, it is a two-handed device, like, that's kind of the way you have to use it.

00:44:43   And I knew that the life I was heading towards was a one-handed device with holding a baby, which is why I went down to the Pro.

00:44:51   And I am reminded of this when using this phone, but the difference of being, like, remembering what it was like to use the Max is that

00:44:59   I am aware of the fact that the screen is larger, but I don't notice it as often, because it's easier to hold than a Pro Max is.

00:45:11   Because of the thinness and lightness, like, it's easier to kind of maneuver my hand around.

00:45:16   But I do agree, I do still notice that the screen is bigger.

00:45:20   Like, I ended up, I mean, this is how I use my phones anyway, but on my Air, I have a pop socket on the back now, like I always do.

00:45:29   And the combination of the pop socket and the kind of the iconic plateau is enough to kind of make it easy-ish to hold.

00:45:38   But, yeah, I mean, it is a bigger screen.

00:45:41   That is undeniable.

00:45:42   And I can't reach to the top in my usual grip.

00:45:45   Like, I do have to shimmy in a way that I don't really need to do with the Pro.

00:45:49   So, it is noticeable.

00:45:52   I do, in a way, like, I'm happy that the screen is bigger.

00:45:56   I think that that makes the phone really interesting, because it's so thin.

00:46:01   Yes.

00:46:02   Making it big is quite an interesting combo to have done.

00:46:07   Yeah.

00:46:07   But, obviously, it changes the usability of the device, because basically nobody can use it completely one-handed.

00:46:16   And just from a physics perspective, increasing the screen size, every little bit you increase the screen size increases the battery a lot.

00:46:28   It was absolutely required for this phone.

00:46:30   And I think that's it.

00:46:31   I think that they needed to have a larger screen.

00:46:34   I don't think a Pro or even smaller version of the Air would have a viable battery.

00:46:40   I think it had to be shaped like this.

00:46:45   So, you know, I think it's great.

00:46:49   Other than the weird kind of ergonomic issues that I've faced and tried to get over, and I'm sure I would get over it.

00:46:58   I'm sure I would internalize all these little finger moves that I remember from previous phones, but haven't had to deal with with the latest pros.

00:47:06   I'm sure I would get over it.

00:47:09   Because I got over it when we went to larger phones from smaller phones, and you just kind of get over it.

00:47:14   You internalize it, in a way.

00:47:16   You do.

00:47:16   Like, it's just your way of living.

00:47:17   I would do that.

00:47:18   I just find it such a remarkably pleasant device to hold.

00:47:23   I'm not somebody who cares about battery life that much.

00:47:26   I think also the people who really...

00:47:29   Like, I already was at the case where if I was going to go somewhere and I was really worried about running out of battery in the middle of the trip, I would bring a battery.

00:47:38   And so, I don't think this would change that much at all.

00:47:43   I'm also not...

00:47:44   I'm somebody who works at home and does not spend lots and lots of time outside of my house where the battery life would be an issue.

00:47:50   I'm not saying that it isn't an issue for people.

00:47:51   I'm saying, for me, I'm the kind of iPhone user who doesn't care so much about extended battery life, as long as I'm near a charger or I can bring a battery with me.

00:48:01   And the camera, front and back, the cameras are really nice.

00:48:05   I went to a baseball game, last baseball game of the year on Saturday for us.

00:48:12   And I was sitting there and I was getting texts from Casey and Steven about college football.

00:48:18   And I realized I was going to send them a picture of the ballpark.

00:48:22   And then I realized what I should do is send them a tandem video from the ballpark with me in the corner and a video of the ballpark.

00:48:32   Because you can do that now with the new selfie cam.

00:48:38   So you do dual capture.

00:48:40   And so I sent them a little video, dual capture.

00:48:43   And then I sent you a little video, you and Brad, a dual capture video as well.

00:48:47   Following up on podcast, podcast-a-thon shenanigans.

00:48:52   So that was fun.

00:48:54   That selfie camera, I did a few selfies.

00:48:56   It's really great.

00:48:57   And then, you know, that single camera on the back is a very good camera.

00:49:01   It is not going to get you much of a zoom.

00:49:04   It's not going to get you the advantages of the wide and the macro.

00:49:07   Like, it's, of course, it's compromised.

00:49:09   But it is also a very good single camera.

00:49:13   And, again, I say, for some people, it's good enough to be worth having this futuristic experience.

00:49:20   But I keep coming back, Mike, to the original MacBook Air, where it felt simultaneously like the future and also like you were, it was too early.

00:49:31   That's why it was the future.

00:49:33   It was just, there were so many, I mean, the word that I used over and over again in those reviews in the early days of the MacBook Air was compromise.

00:49:40   I was like, there's so many compromises and people would say, well, why?

00:49:44   Why would you even do it if it's so compromised?

00:49:47   And the answer is, yeah, but it's so light.

00:49:49   Right?

00:49:50   Like, I mean, that was the answer.

00:49:51   Yeah, but it's so nice.

00:49:53   Other than all the terrible things, it's so great to have a laptop that small.

00:49:56   And I feel the same way about this phone.

00:49:58   It is really compromised.

00:50:00   And yet it's also so amazing to have this light thing in your pocket or especially between, you know, your fingers.

00:50:06   And it feels like a prop from a sci-fi show.

00:50:10   Um, and I like that about it.

00:50:13   So it's not for everybody.

00:50:15   That's for sure.

00:50:15   I'm not sure it's even for me.

00:50:18   Um, but as a, as an act of creation on Apple's part, I think it's very impressive.

00:50:25   You and I have been talking for ages now about how it's very clearly also a stake in the ground so that they can have technology to build toward that enables a folding iPhone down the road.

00:50:37   Rumor has it next year.

00:50:38   Like one of the ways you get there is by putting your engineers through the question of like, how do we make a single iPhone plane that is this thin?

00:50:48   How do we do that?

00:50:49   And have it not bend and have it have good heat, good enough heat characteristics, let's say, and battery and camera.

00:50:56   How do we do that?

00:50:57   And this is the answer to that question.

00:50:59   Obviously, shipping a real product is different than just having it in the lab.

00:51:03   So they shipped it.

00:51:04   Yep.

00:51:05   I think this is definitely the direction they're going with something like a folding phone.

00:51:08   And also, I say this to people and they get very upset.

00:51:11   I do think it's the direction that Apple is going with phones in general.

00:51:14   I mean, if you can, you should, right?

00:51:18   Yeah.

00:51:18   Like, and people are like, no, no, no.

00:51:20   I like it when the phones are thick and all that.

00:51:22   It's like, I know, I know what you're saying.

00:51:25   And what I'm not saying is Apple is going to inflict a low featured product on everybody next year.

00:51:31   That's not what I'm saying.

00:51:31   But what I'm saying is, like the iPhone X, Apple is test driving new functionality here that it will apply to solving, just like how the MacBook Air influenced the MacBook Pro.

00:51:42   The MacBook Pro is still not thicker than the MacBook, or still thicker than the MacBook Air.

00:51:45   It's still heavier than the MacBook Air.

00:51:48   But it's more like the MacBook Air than the MacBook Pro was in 2011, right?

00:51:52   Like, it was technology and approaches that got integrated into the larger thing.

00:51:58   And the idea here, where you're trying to build a battery and display plane that is so thin, and that you are starting to load more technology up into the bump, which is the iPhone equivalent of the wedge on the MacBook Air.

00:52:13   Like, do we not think that these are things Apple's going to strive toward?

00:52:18   I don't think, because I always hear from people who are like, I just want a thick, heavy phone.

00:52:23   And it's like, okay, there's some truth to that, but I would say you got the dimensions wrong.

00:52:30   The thing that we've really learned is that you can never make a phone with a big enough screen.

00:52:35   And people who love the little phones will be mad about this.

00:52:39   But the truth is, the market has shown big screens sell.

00:52:42   Bigger screens sell more.

00:52:44   That's the direction it's going.

00:52:46   And if you're doing that, like, again, the MacBook Pro is not the MacBook Air, but having a way to manage battery and thinness is important to lots and lots of people.

00:52:58   And, you know, Apple could ship a MacBook Pro today that's an inch thick and has battery life for a week.

00:53:05   Nobody wants that, right?

00:53:07   You've got to find a balance.

00:53:08   And by seeking the technologies in the air, they are trying to find that balance or the pieces that will allow them to recalculate their balance.

00:53:19   Because they know that a lot of people want more battery life and they're not giving it to them.

00:53:22   And they will give it to them.

00:53:24   But if they can give it to them and make it a little thinner and make it a little lighter, over time, that is a great advantage for them.

00:53:33   Plus, there's the foldable idea that's going on there.

00:53:36   So, you know, I think it's an important device for all those reasons.

00:53:40   And I think that the people who buy it are not unreasonable.

00:53:43   I'm not sure how I feel about it.

00:53:45   But honestly, for me, it's primarily about that width thing and not about the rest of it.

00:53:50   Because I think I could get used to the rest of it.

00:53:52   Yeah, I think, like, people, when they're asking for a thick phone, what they want is the features that it provides.

00:54:02   But I think what we're both saying here is the hope is Apple can maintain the feature set, but use this, all this, their learning technology-wise to make all the phones thinner.

00:54:14   It's like, if you can do that, brilliant, right?

00:54:19   What if there's enough space up in the new plateau in the Pro in a couple of years?

00:54:25   Put the processor up there.

00:54:27   You know, like, I don't know.

00:54:28   But what if, right?

00:54:29   Like, that is the hope, at least, right?

00:54:31   And you said the iPhone X, and I was thinking about the iPhone X a minute ago.

00:54:34   Like, the Air is nowhere near as good a phone as the iPhone X was.

00:54:41   But the Air is the most interesting phone since the iPhone X, I think.

00:54:45   Right?

00:54:45   Yeah.

00:54:47   I don't think there has been an iPhone as interesting since the iPhone X.

00:54:51   Right, because it's got so much different about it.

00:54:53   Yeah.

00:54:54   Yeah.

00:54:54   It has something, like, the iPhone X was fundamentally different because it had a full screen, right?

00:55:00   And the notch.

00:55:01   This is fundamentally different because it is unbelievably thin for what is in it, right?

00:55:08   Where, like, realistically, you're losing out on one or two cameras, depending on how you would judge it,

00:55:14   and an amount of battery life, depending on how you use the phone.

00:55:19   For those to be, realistically, your only compromises, it's a technical marvel.

00:55:25   And what they'll learn from this could be fascinating.

00:55:27   Yeah.

00:55:28   And presumably, over time, they will apply this technique to phones with more cameras.

00:55:33   Yeah.

00:55:34   To phones with more battery life.

00:55:35   Yeah.

00:55:36   To phones.

00:55:36   Like, that's the whole idea here is they're applying this stuff.

00:55:43   Once they build this, they know how to do it.

00:55:46   They can apply it elsewhere.

00:55:47   And they just, maybe I'm talking too much about this, but, like, I see so many reactions to people

00:55:53   who are like, Apple's going to take away my iPhone and replace it with an iPhone Air.

00:55:57   It's like, no, that's not it.

00:55:59   But it is a little bit like somebody with a 12-inch powerbook saying, Apple's going to take away my 12-inch powerbook.

00:56:07   And it's like, well, they are, but they're going to replace it with a powerbook that's like a quarter of the thickness and has a 13-inch high resolution.

00:56:16   Like, tech marches on.

00:56:19   And this is how, like, you know, those people complain, like, the iPhone's really boring.

00:56:25   And the truth is, the pace of smartphone innovation has slowed.

00:56:29   There's no doubt about it.

00:56:31   Because there's low-hanging fruit that gets taken off, and then it's hard.

00:56:35   Because then you're no longer on, oh, my God, we discovered a new category, and now we can invent things for it, and it's going to be great.

00:56:41   And those days are heady.

00:56:42   They're very exciting.

00:56:43   But the truth is that once all that is gone, you are back to being at the pace of innovation, at the pace of tech innovation.

00:56:51   Not at the pace of pulling things off of, you know, oh, we'll use this tech from over here, and yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great.

00:56:56   And we could stuff another camera in there, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:56:59   And it becomes, oh, we've already stuffed a lot of cameras in there, but how do we go from 24 to 48 megapixels, and what does that sensor look like, and do we need a tetraprism?

00:57:06   And, like, it gets harder.

00:57:08   And so it's fair to say that, like, the iPhone X was the last time Apple really kind of broke open the iPhone and started rethinking it to the point where they sold the old model as well, right?

00:57:20   Because they're like, oh, nobody's going to buy this thing for a $1,000 phone.

00:57:23   That's wild, right?

00:57:24   And then over time, all that stuff got interspersed to the point where now today's iPhone 17 has all of the contents of the iPhone X, right?

00:57:34   Like, it's just they're all down there and more.

00:57:36   And it is the iPhone, and it's not identical to the iPhone X, but it has become the iPhone.

00:57:43   The Air is like that, where it's like we are seeing Apple figure out problems that will allow it to apply those answers to other products, and the products will change and improve over time.

00:57:55   And that's what makes it, like you said, interesting in a way, different in a way, that is impressive and that we haven't seen in, you know, seven or eight years.

00:58:07   And, you know, not that there isn't progress, but mostly it's sort of slow, iterative progress.

00:58:12   And here I feel like there are some, a larger leap is happening.

00:58:16   Yep.

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00:59:22   Jason, I believe HelloFresh sent you a box of recipes.

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00:59:27   Yeah, I know.

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00:59:48   I mean, that's why we do it is we – can we cook for ourselves?

00:59:52   Yes, we can.

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01:02:36   So I have been using the, I guess I should explain, I have an Air and a Pro, I think I kind of spoke about this last week, but the Air is kind of becoming my work device.

01:02:48   You know, I've been using an Android phone for the last six months or so as a work device, and now I'm moving some of that over to my Air.

01:02:55   Plus, it is already being incredibly helpful for the stuff that I'm doing with CrossFord, which is having a device that I have set up in my family, but as a new user.

01:03:07   So it doesn't have any of my stuff in it, because this was becoming a problem for me of like, you open the photo picker and here's pictures of my baby that I don't want in a video that will be seen by millions of people, right?

01:03:19   So I now have like a completely like silo device, but then also putting it in my family plan means that I benefit from things that I've purchased already.

01:03:27   It's in my storage, right?

01:03:29   The two terabytes of storage that I have and all that kind of stuff.

01:03:32   So I'll put that in there.

01:03:33   But the iPhone Pro, the 17 Pro is my phone.

01:03:36   That is the phone that I've been using all week.

01:03:39   And I will say, I understand why some people will say, after a few days, this orange is too much for me.

01:03:45   I get it.

01:03:46   However, I am all about it.

01:03:49   Oh my, Jason, I, it feels so good to be right.

01:03:54   Where me and you have been talking for years now on this show, spearheading with the color czar idea that Apple just need to put colors on the Pro phones.

01:04:05   And they did it.

01:04:07   I would say they maybe went a little too far, like further than they needed to go with this orange and like by and also removing a kind of neutral, like black or gray.

01:04:19   But they did it and they were right to do it because this phone is fantastic.

01:04:25   I love looking at my phone and seeing like a band of orange going all the way around it.

01:04:33   And I don't think there has ever been a back of an iPhone that looks better than this one.

01:04:38   Yeah.

01:04:39   I love it so much.

01:04:41   I agree.

01:04:42   I think it's great.

01:04:42   And, and, and, and again, we never argued for Apple to remove people's choice.

01:04:51   We are, we argued for more choice.

01:04:55   Yes.

01:04:55   And this is what this is.

01:04:56   I agree with you.

01:04:57   I think the blue is really nice, but I do love blue.

01:04:59   I think it's a nice dark phone.

01:05:01   I know that there's some people who don't want any color at all and they really want it to be gray or, or, or black.

01:05:06   And I think it's a little curious that they didn't offer it in gray or black, but only in that dark blue, um, which I think is very pretty.

01:05:12   And in any other year I would have been very happy to get, but like the point is you should offer a silver, silvery white phone.

01:05:19   You should probably offer a black or dark gray phone, but like let people have some color choice in their life.

01:05:25   If for those, cause, cause, cause again, it's human nature.

01:05:30   I know.

01:05:30   But like, I see people who are like, Oh, the orange, it's too much.

01:05:32   I hate it.

01:05:33   It's like, nobody is making you buy an orange phone by your boring colored phone by the silver phone, which I think also looks fantastic.

01:05:41   This is like when I said that the IMAX came in six colors and also silver, which is not a color and people are offended.

01:05:46   And I'm like, I'm sure silver sells the best.

01:05:48   And that's why they do it.

01:05:49   I'm sure silver sells the best.

01:05:50   And I'm, I'm only tweaking you a little bit when I joke about your boring colors.

01:05:54   I am a little bit, but like,

01:05:55   I think it's a perfectly legitimate choice to say, I just want a boring color.

01:06:01   It's fine.

01:06:01   Like, I get it.

01:06:02   I get it.

01:06:03   I, I think there are lots of people who would look at this orange and be like, Whoa, that is too much.

01:06:08   But you know what?

01:06:09   It's got personality.

01:06:10   And I think it says already, I think it says iPhone 17 pro.

01:06:14   I think that color is the iPhone 17 pro color.

01:06:17   I would be, I would not be surprised if it, if it becomes kind of like a reference point, like a little bit iconic.

01:06:25   As, Oh, remember that orange.

01:06:28   That was the orange one.

01:06:29   Cause I don't think we get an orange phone next year.

01:06:32   I expect that they will continue making colors now.

01:06:36   I think it'd be incredibly weird to not, I mean, cause this is the benefit of them moving back to aluminum.

01:06:41   They have more, it is easier for them to produce a range of color in their product, in the profiles again.

01:06:48   So I expect them to continue doing this.

01:06:51   Go back and look at the iPods, right?

01:06:53   Go back and look at the iPods.

01:06:54   There's lots.

01:06:55   And you can look at the iMacs too, but look at the iPods and see all the bright colors that they've got there.

01:06:59   They could do a bright blue.

01:07:00   They could do a pinky red.

01:07:02   They could do a bright green.

01:07:04   There's lots of things that they could do.

01:07:06   I think there's value in saying that was the orange one.

01:07:09   Now, Apple is going to look at the SKUs and see how it goes.

01:07:14   I hope we're right, but I feel like this is what they should do.

01:07:18   They should offer a phone with personality in terms of the color for those who choose.

01:07:24   And everybody else doesn't have to do it.

01:07:25   Now, the brilliant thing about how this is built is even if you put a case on it, you get the big plateau just sticking out there with its big expanse of anodized orange aluminum.

01:07:40   And so you still get it.

01:07:41   You still get that feel.

01:07:43   And around the front of the phone, you see the orange bracketing it, and it just looks so good.

01:07:49   So it's not for everybody, and that's fine.

01:07:51   And I love orange, and so I love this phone.

01:07:53   If they had chosen a different color, I would be less enthusiastic about it.

01:07:57   But I'm enthusiastic most about the concept of offering a bright color in an iPhone Pro.

01:08:04   Hooray for that.

01:08:06   I've also been really taken by the industrial feel of this phone in the days that I've been using it, where it is thick and heavy,

01:08:17   which is not necessarily what isn't what I wanted from a phone.

01:08:20   I didn't want a heavier iPhone.

01:08:22   It's a pro phone. It's a job phone.

01:08:22   I didn't, but...

01:08:24   It's like one of those wide pencils that workers use when they're cutting wood or carpenters or slicing up drywall or something.

01:08:34   It's just a tough...

01:08:35   You put it in your denim coveralls as you...

01:08:37   Like, I know we're talking about high technology here, but yet there is a little bit of that vibe, right?

01:08:42   Like, this is...

01:08:43   Like, what makes a phone Pro?

01:08:45   But, like, it does feel like that.

01:08:46   It's like a Pro...

01:08:47   It's like a Pro tool.

01:08:48   And again, it's not just those people who use them.

01:08:51   It's lots of people who use those tools and appreciate Pro tools.

01:08:55   But there's that feel.

01:08:56   That nice feel.

01:08:57   And I...

01:08:58   But I, you know, even though it has got that kind of, like, heft to it, the way that it looks and feels in my hand, like, the way the edges feel, the density, the way that the plateau feels, like, it actually works together.

01:09:14   That it feels pleasant in my hand when I'm holding onto it.

01:09:18   Like, I like the overall package of the device.

01:09:22   Yeah, this is our...

01:09:23   These are our tools.

01:09:24   These are our tools.

01:09:25   And it is that for me.

01:09:27   Like, my iPhone is so many things, right?

01:09:31   Like, it is the window onto the world, right?

01:09:35   In so many ways.

01:09:35   And one of those worlds is work.

01:09:39   And this feels like a thing that I am working on.

01:09:43   And this actually will bring me to a question from Ben, who asked if we could speak to the scratch or durability concerns of the 17 Pro phones that have been found in Apple stores.

01:09:53   I put an article in the show notes.

01:09:55   9to5Mac wrote it up.

01:09:56   Apple has responded to this saying that there is some weird thing going on in their Apple stores, that they're leaving marks on the phones.

01:10:02   And people are saying this is a scratch gate thing.

01:10:04   But Apple says it wipes off.

01:10:06   Like, it's a residue, basically, that wipes off.

01:10:08   Then other people have done durability testing.

01:10:11   And they're like, oh, you can get scratches on the plateau.

01:10:13   Look, I know these things cost a lot of money, right?

01:10:18   I understand it.

01:10:19   Don't expect you're not going to scratch your phone.

01:10:21   Like, just don't expect that.

01:10:23   They are physical objects that exist in the world.

01:10:26   They're not made of magical substances.

01:10:27   Put a case on it if you want to protect it more.

01:10:30   I don't put a case on it because I don't mind that.

01:10:33   It's a little bit like that argument about leather.

01:10:35   It discolors and scratches and stuff.

01:10:38   And that's just how life is.

01:10:42   I have no doubt that there is something to the fact that certain parts of the anodization probably are more, you know, liable to get scratched than other parts of the anodization are up around the corner, the curve of the plateau.

01:10:57   That's true.

01:10:58   But, Mike, it's hard for me to find a story that I have more contempt for than a whole bunch of people trying to find a gate, trying to make a scratch gate a thing.

01:11:12   I will share here my little pet theory that I shared on Connected, which is this is only taking off because everybody was really excited about bending the air, and that didn't happen.

01:11:25   That didn't work.

01:11:25   So we've got to find something else.

01:11:27   So now the people that really want to talk about – because every year there has to be a gate, right?

01:11:31   There has to be.

01:11:31   Because there is like a whole industry of people, and it's getting worse with social media, especially threads.

01:11:37   It's super bad for this.

01:11:38   I don't know what it's like on Twitter, but I assume similar.

01:11:41   Of people kind of – it's rage baiting, right?

01:11:43   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:11:45   Sure.

01:11:45   And so like people want to find these things, and it's like because the air doesn't bend, well, I guess we'll find the next thing, and it turns out that it's possible to scratch an iPhone.

01:11:55   Oh, no way.

01:11:56   Really?

01:11:57   Like every single iPhone?

01:11:58   You can see the dynamic, the economic dynamic on YouTube thumbnails because that's where I see it.

01:12:09   Because I do enough tech content that my YouTube suggestions is full of this stuff.

01:12:14   And most of the year, it's just not that – it's not there or it's not that bad.

01:12:18   But this time of year, every thumbnail is some person – I almost said a bad word – some person holding an iPhone with a big arrow, making a face like they are smelling a dead fish.

01:12:33   And then what you'll realize in the thumbnail, it'll be like, this doesn't work.

01:12:38   And then the title of it will be, iPhone Review Impressions Power at a Price or something like that.

01:12:47   And I'm like, oh, they're already walking it back in the title from the thumbnail.

01:12:51   And we know that the actual video is not going to be able to do it.

01:12:54   And my point here is, yeah, that's how YouTube thumbnails work.

01:12:57   That's how social media works.

01:12:58   It's engagement bait.

01:12:59   And the iPhone is so big that people make their livings this time of year.

01:13:05   And you have to – the spotlight, that same thing that I talk about with the Apple events being – the iPhone events being so important.

01:13:12   Like, the spotlight is on this subject right now.

01:13:15   And if you're somebody who makes your money creating engagement in one way or another or makes your brand or however it is, now is the time you do it.

01:13:24   And it's a vacuum that must be filled.

01:13:26   I mean, that's the bottom line.

01:13:27   And you're right.

01:13:28   One of the things I could have felt it was unsightly bends.

01:13:32   But instead, it's scratches, mild scratches at a certain level of hardness on a certain part of an anodized aluminum.

01:13:43   I mean, give me a break.

01:13:44   Come on.

01:13:45   Yeah, I agree.

01:13:46   Kind of moving on a little bit.

01:13:48   I kind of – I've been thinking – I've been taking pictures of this phone, right?

01:13:53   And I think that I've gotten to the point where I just can't evaluate the cameras on these phones anymore in a way which is helpful.

01:14:03   Because they're so good?

01:14:03   They're just – they're so good now unless there is a problem.

01:14:07   And I think that the problems – or like what I perceive as problems with Apple's cameras, it actually takes a really long time for me to realize a change.

01:14:19   Like, you know, I ended up not liking the way that the macro mode works.

01:14:23   I turned it on again and I haven't had problems with it so far.

01:14:25   But I don't think I've taken enough images yet.

01:14:27   So like the base – like I was – you know, we went out yesterday and I was taking a bunch of pictures walking around the park.

01:14:34   And they all look incredible.

01:14:36   And it's like, well, yeah, like the lighting was great.

01:14:38   And, you know, the iPhone camera is always great.

01:14:41   I don't really feel like I can say this is – I cannot discern the differences year over year.

01:14:49   People can.

01:14:49   I am not that person.

01:14:51   Like I can tell you that I prefer the 4X over the 5X lens just because I didn't like how far the jump to 5 was.

01:15:01   And I can tell you that I like being able to go to 8 times.

01:15:05   It's just a bonus.

01:15:06   But that's just like a functionality thing, which is fine.

01:15:09   But the big thing about the cameras is just a selfie camera, having the options on the selfie camera, they didn't exist before at all.

01:15:17   So that's really great.

01:15:18   But the quality of individual images, I just don't know if I can pixelate it that way.

01:15:24   You can see it in the zoom because that camera didn't used to do that, right?

01:15:31   That camera didn't used to go to 48 and crop like that.

01:15:36   The 8X, it is a digital crop.

01:15:40   It is processed differently.

01:15:41   People who are angry about – don't call it an optical quality zoom because it's not optical.

01:15:47   Well, it's like it is kind of.

01:15:48   It's not a digital zoom in the way you're thinking of it where it's making things up.

01:15:52   It's a crop that's processed.

01:15:54   But like when you've got 48 megapixels of resolution, even the digital crop looks pretty good.

01:16:00   And there were reviews that compared it to the 5X on the previous model, right?

01:16:10   And it's like it's a better camera with a better sensor.

01:16:13   And as a result, all the zoom stuff is better than it was.

01:16:16   But I agree with you in general for the last few years, I used to spend a lot of time doing photo testing.

01:16:24   And like the iPhone photos, they are so good.

01:16:27   And also the processing details are so subtle that I agree.

01:16:33   You kind of got to live with it.

01:16:35   And I rely on people like Tyler Stallman or Sebastian DeVit to talk about who both posted reviews.

01:16:45   People like that who really know photography to talk about how they've reacted to the camera.

01:16:53   Now, they're also content creators who are going to, you know, to, you know, go to Iceland to shoot.

01:16:59   Like, look, it's part of the deal.

01:17:02   But like I rely on those people who know what they're talking about to show me the differences that they're perceiving in it.

01:17:10   Because I think that it's important to understand that.

01:17:12   But it is also telling that it's at such a high level now that we can all kind of just say, OK, iPhone cameras are good.

01:17:21   The selfie camera is very different and that's worth explaining.

01:17:24   But otherwise, and the fact that the new 48 megapixel zoom camera gives you reach because you can go 4X or even digital crop to 8X.

01:17:32   And that's way beyond what you could do before.

01:17:34   Yeah.

01:17:34   Like there has to be, for me, things that are functionally different or didn't exist before for me to really be able to be like, OK, this is this is a nice thing to have.

01:17:45   But like, like photographic styles for me was one of those because I got to tune my image to look the way that I want it to look.

01:17:53   And I really like it.

01:17:54   I heard Federico complain about that on Connected last week.

01:17:57   I think so.

01:17:58   I think what he's getting at.

01:18:00   I mean, I know you, you burrowed down there, which is like, well, it's just a setting.

01:18:03   He's like, yeah, but there's this square.

01:18:05   You said, don't look at the square.

01:18:06   And he said, I can't stop looking at the square.

01:18:08   I can't help you.

01:18:09   I can't help you anymore.

01:18:11   And is that a feature, is that UI that Apple overengineered?

01:18:14   It is.

01:18:15   I would argue that Apple made that whole thing way too confusing.

01:18:18   But why they did it, what you said is exactly right.

01:18:21   Why they did it is the way an image gets processed is based on choices made by the people who build the image pipeline.

01:18:29   And Apple got tired of getting dinged because people would look at a different choice made on a different phone and say, I like that better than Apple's choice.

01:18:39   So Apple made this thing and overengineered it.

01:18:42   And it was, it's a little like Steve Jobs saying, you can have a bumper case if you want it.

01:18:45   It's like, do it whatever you like.

01:18:47   We don't care anymore.

01:18:48   Photographic styles.

01:18:50   And, but the truth of it is, yeah, if you spend time once going through photographic styles and picking your default photographic style and having it please you.

01:19:00   And like you, I prefer a little bit of a warmer style.

01:19:04   And then all your photos just come out looking like that.

01:19:07   And there's nothing wrong with making a photo look like it pleases you and having it happen up front so you don't have to edit it later to please you.

01:19:15   Even if you can edit it later to change it if you want.

01:19:18   Is the right approach.

01:19:19   They just kind of overdid it.

01:19:21   But, yeah.

01:19:23   So, I mean, iPhone cameras are good.

01:19:26   The selfie thing, I need to spend more time with it.

01:19:29   But I think it's great.

01:19:31   Like, I literally did the thing where you hold the camera up and you take a selfie and then you tilt it a little so that Lauren's in the shot.

01:19:37   And it zooms back and frames us both perfectly.

01:19:40   And now it's a selfie of both of us.

01:19:42   Like, where have you been all my life?

01:19:44   Like, that's, that's, and that, I think in some ways, I know I said this last week too.

01:19:50   This is Apple reinventing something that didn't need to be reinvented and that people didn't know.

01:19:57   They're like, oh, well, that's better, right?

01:20:01   Like, that is, that is a perfect Apple kind of thing to say, hey, the way we've all been trained to take selfies is dumb.

01:20:07   Let's do it a better way.

01:20:09   And I think that's really smart.

01:20:11   So, on last week's episode, we both shared a not great first impression with the AirPods Pro 3.

01:20:18   Right.

01:20:19   And I will say we got a lot of feedback from Upgradians who had the same thoughts.

01:20:26   Yes.

01:20:27   Like, lots and lots of feedback.

01:20:28   I also heard from people who said that they hated the AirPods Pro 2 and they liked the AirPods Pro 3.

01:20:33   There's a lot of feeling about these headphones.

01:20:37   And you and I got to ride home on an airplane with them.

01:20:40   Yes.

01:20:41   Yes.

01:20:42   So, that's good.

01:20:43   And it, they did the job.

01:20:47   It did.

01:20:48   It absolutely did the job.

01:20:49   Absolutely.

01:20:50   The noise cancellation on a plane is, so I said last time, if it was good enough, I wouldn't need my AirPods Max anymore.

01:20:58   I don't need my AirPods Max anymore.

01:20:59   No.

01:20:59   I won't be bringing them on future trips because the AirPods Pro 3, they are absolutely doing the job for me in that environment.

01:21:06   Let me see if I can describe what's going on with the noise cancelling there.

01:21:11   There are times when I got an airplane and I don't actually, I'm not ready to listen to a podcast or music.

01:21:17   But I will put them in and turn on noise cancelling because I just don't want to hear.

01:21:21   People are boarding the plane and the air is blowing out of the vents and all those things and I'll turn it off.

01:21:27   And you can still hear stuff.

01:21:30   It's just all quieter.

01:21:31   And if I start playing music, I can still kind of hear stuff.

01:21:34   But it's all much quieter and I can hear my music and it's great.

01:21:37   AirPods Pro 3, you do that.

01:21:40   You can still hear stuff.

01:21:43   But I saw this, somebody said this on, maybe on Mastodon, maybe in a review I read.

01:21:48   And it's absolutely right.

01:21:50   Which is, the difference is, on the AirPods Pro 3, if I'm playing music or a podcast, I don't hear anything from the plane.

01:22:02   It's gone.

01:22:03   And I know that's a weird way to say it, but like, that's the level of difference for me.

01:22:09   Is, before, I could still hear that stuff was going on outside, but it was so much quieter that I could focus on the music.

01:22:17   After, with the 3, I can't hear that stuff going on outside.

01:22:22   It's there, because if I pause the music, I can kind of hear it.

01:22:25   But the noise floor has been dropped that much.

01:22:29   And I think it's a combination of a better seal and better noise canceling, right?

01:22:35   I think those are both going on.

01:22:37   And the way we reacted to it last week, I think one of the things that's happening is, because those ear tips are stiffer, there is more of a feeling of insertion when you put them in your ears.

01:22:49   Yes.

01:22:50   And there's more of a feeling of positive pressure on your ear canals than there was with the AirPods Pro 2.

01:22:57   Yeah.

01:22:58   That said, after a week of using them, I don't know whether I've squished the ear tips a little bit or whether the ear tips have expanded my ear canals a little bit, but they already feel more comfortable.

01:23:07   But certainly, the act of putting them in your ears feels much more like an act than they did before.

01:23:16   I feel like I used to place them in.

01:23:17   Now I have to put them in.

01:23:19   Yeah.

01:23:20   It is a small but noticeable difference.

01:23:23   What I would say is, I have gotten used to it also.

01:23:27   Something that did really help me was to make another size adjustment on just one ear.

01:23:35   So I have extra small in left and small in right.

01:23:38   That made it feel much more like the AirPods Pro 2 did, like closer to that than it did before.

01:23:45   And I think like a lot of people, like the people who spent time reviewing it, I've realized, you know, I'm used to it or it's gotten easier or whatever, but it feels more normal.

01:23:58   And the quality of the product is outshining the discomfort that I will stand by the fact that like this is one of the first Apple products in a really long time that had such a negative first impression for me.

01:24:12   But I've come to appreciate it.

01:24:16   So I would say that if you, if you feel you're not sure about it when you get them, keep it going because it gets easier.

01:24:24   Yeah, it does.

01:24:25   You do get used to them personal.

01:24:27   You know, nothing is more personal than personal ergonomics.

01:24:31   In this case, you're literally sticking an Apple product in your body, right?

01:24:38   Like in your ear canal.

01:24:40   It's a different level.

01:24:42   It's a very personal kind of thing.

01:24:44   And I do think you get used to it, but I agree.

01:24:48   I think Apple was more aggressive here.

01:24:51   Apple wanted the seal to be better and they wanted the, that, um, the tips to be more resilient and they wanted to do better noise canceling.

01:24:59   And so they pushed it in a way that makes it not feel quite as natural out of the gate.

01:25:06   And that's an interesting choice.

01:25:07   I get why they did it.

01:25:09   I think a lot of people will find this better than the old ones.

01:25:15   I think there's always people who can't wear the old ones who can wear the new ones and it's great for them.

01:25:19   I also think if you're one of these people who's like, I just don't like the feeling of something in my ears.

01:25:24   I think this is going to be worse because, because it's more of a feeling of something in my ears.

01:25:29   And I'm used to, I wear, I've been wearing in-ear headphones for like 20 years.

01:25:34   I'm used to it.

01:25:35   And I still found it a little bit weird.

01:25:38   Let alone somebody who's just like, likes the earbuds, likes them hanging out there.

01:25:42   And I mean, that's why they make, the argument could be, that's why they make AirPods 4 with active noise canceling.

01:25:48   It's like, if you, you have two paths for noise canceling now.

01:25:51   You've got the path where we aren't very intrusive and it just sits there.

01:25:56   And then we've got the path where we stick it in your ear and you can choose.

01:26:00   And this is the path where they stick it in your ear.

01:26:03   And yeah, I got, I got used to it, but I, that initial reaction that we both had was very interesting.

01:26:10   And spending more time size adjusting is part of the deal.

01:26:16   I think here, I, I've definitely done that.

01:26:18   I've been popping them off and putting on different sizes and trying to figure it out.

01:26:21   I went too small and then there was more noise leakage and I went back up a size and I, I may adjust the size of my right ear.

01:26:29   Cause I'm not sure my right ear is as comfortable as my left ear.

01:26:31   Um, but I'm also getting used to it over time and the quality difference is kind of amazing.

01:26:37   So that's the trade-off there.

01:26:38   Yeah.

01:26:39   When I did the test, I went both down to extra small and did the fit test and it's like, you're right here.

01:26:44   That's the wrong one.

01:26:45   So then I did extra small and small.

01:26:47   It's like, yeah, you've got it right now.

01:26:48   And it also felt better.

01:26:50   Good.

01:26:50   This episode is brought to you by Claude from Anthropic.

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01:28:49   It's time for a room of a roundup, Jason Snell.

01:28:52   Yeehaw!

01:28:53   Let's do it.

01:28:54   Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple has developed an internal chatbot.

01:28:58   This project is codenamed Veritas and is being used in anticipation of the new version of Siri coming next year.

01:29:07   I'm excited.

01:29:07   An internal chatbot.

01:29:09   Mark reminded me.

01:29:10   Hello, stomach.

01:29:12   Get ready.

01:29:13   Yes.

01:29:14   The Doritos are coming.

01:29:16   Developers are using this tool to test how the new Siri models are performing for finding information about the data on device.

01:29:24   Music and in-app actions powered by App Intense.

01:29:28   This app will probably never be released in the way that Apple are using it internally because we should actually be seeing the results of this baked into a new experience with our devices using Siri, which is due to a wide quote as early as March.

01:29:43   I think that means March or later, right?

01:29:47   As early as...

01:29:47   Yeah.

01:29:48   March or later.

01:29:49   This is a quote from Mark's article, Veritas resembles most popular chatbots letting users manage multiple conversations across different topics.

01:29:57   It can save and reference past chats, follow up on earlier queries, and support extended back and forth exchanges.

01:30:03   So I hope that when they ship this, there is a UI that is like that.

01:30:08   Like, I don't want to be doing things primarily by voice, and I don't want to start fresh requests every single time.

01:30:15   I think it makes sense, right?

01:30:17   Like, and Mark Gurman put on his pundit hat and said Apple should release this to the public.

01:30:21   And I think I look at this and think, well, what they should do is they should make type to Siri more functional, right?

01:30:28   Type to Siri should have memory.

01:30:30   Type to Siri should have ability to reference multiple chats just like you can in other chatbot apps.

01:30:35   It should just be part of Siri is the type to Siri should become a little more prominent and type to Siri is your chatbot.

01:30:41   And if they want to process type to Siri in some different ways so that it gets results that they want, I'm okay with that.

01:30:49   I don't think it needs to necessarily be, no, when you're in this mode, it's just the bare model.

01:30:54   They can do whatever.

01:30:56   But I think the ability to have that kind of library of different text queries and a context inside them, right?

01:31:04   That's one of the most important things about this is when you deal with one of these chatbots, they are able to reference your entire, that entire conversation.

01:31:12   Not necessarily all your other conversations.

01:31:13   That's sometimes an option.

01:31:15   But like that conversation and understand the context of it and be able to follow up or go back to it later, which I do all the time with like programming projects where I'm like, oh, it doesn't quite do it right.

01:31:24   And I go back and I say, hey, how about we fix this thing?

01:31:27   And it's like, oh, oh, of course, Jason, you're absolutely right.

01:31:31   But in general, I'm not opposed to this because I think it should text interaction is perfectly valid.

01:31:37   One of the things that's not clear from Mark's report is what is powering this experience?

01:31:46   Like, is this an Apple model?

01:31:48   Have they, are they using a model that they're hoping to license?

01:31:53   Like these are the questions that were still unanswered based on the previous reporting.

01:31:56   Like, are they working with a party?

01:31:58   What is, what is the underpinning of the new Siri experience?

01:32:02   Like that is not known from this.

01:32:04   Is this a foundation model that'll kick things off to another model?

01:32:06   Like a private cloud compute or chat GPT or Gemini or something?

01:32:12   It's unclear, unclear.

01:32:14   From code found in the 26.1 beta, 9to5Mac is reporting that Apple is laying the groundwork for other AI companies to provide models to create imagery in image playgrounds.

01:32:26   So they're like, they're putting in some, some stuff that I think wouldn't need to exist if it was just chat GPT and them.

01:32:32   Right.

01:32:33   I got a wonder though, who wants to be in this app specifically?

01:32:36   Like, I don't, I'm not sure who these companies are that are like, oh, we'd like to have our model available in Apple's tool.

01:32:43   So I don't love image playground.

01:32:46   That's an understatement.

01:32:46   But I would say, I feel like what Apple's going for here is a system wide image generation API.

01:32:53   Right.

01:32:54   Because you can, you can access image playgrounds and apps too.

01:32:57   So I think that's what they're doing here is they're saying we've built kind of a nice UI on top of image generators.

01:33:05   And maybe the long run is your image generator can also be, you know, in that, in that same API, you know, so that people want to use your image generator from anywhere in the system using our UI.

01:33:18   You can, I think whether that works or not, I don't know.

01:33:20   But that's the advantage Apple has is to say, like, anywhere in the system, if you're like, make an image, you can do it and it can use stable diffusion or, you know, whatever you want.

01:33:29   But it's using Apple's APIs and it's using Apple's UI.

01:33:33   So it's like a consistent UI for whoever is generating the image in the background.

01:33:37   Maybe, maybe.

01:33:39   Philip Esposito at Macworld has found evidence in 26.1 that Apple is building some new frameworks to allow third party smartwatches to work better with iPhones.

01:33:50   There are two things that Philip has found.

01:33:53   Notification forwarding is referenced for notification support and something called accessory extension, which would allow for better pairing.

01:34:01   Yeah.

01:34:03   I mean, I guess all those Pebble people get excited about the Pebble coming back.

01:34:09   I mean, this is clearly a thing to appease the regulators all around the world that want it.

01:34:15   Right.

01:34:15   It will help.

01:34:16   It will make Europe happy.

01:34:17   And this is also part of what the Department of Justice is saying.

01:34:20   Like, yes.

01:34:21   So do this and maybe you'll make people get off your back.

01:34:24   Yeah, I think.

01:34:26   Yes.

01:34:27   We've talked about this at length, but I'll just say it's been more than 10 years since the Apple Watch came out.

01:34:32   Yeah.

01:34:32   You can, you know, iOS should probably do a decent job of allowing other watches to pair with the operating system because not everybody wants to buy an Apple Watch.

01:34:41   And you're making your, I mean, my argument is essentially that you're making your product lesser.

01:34:46   iOS is lesser because there's a whole class of devices that won't work with iPhones.

01:34:51   And you're almost building a system like back in the day when the Mac was incompatible with everything because everybody used PCs.

01:35:00   It's a little like that where, like, there's whole classes of products and Apple's response is, well, no, just buy an Apple Watch.

01:35:06   But not everybody wants an Apple Watch.

01:35:08   And they should probably have decent access to the system.

01:35:13   And I get Apple's argument here, but, like, Apple provides all of the, all of those features for the Apple Watch.

01:35:18   Maybe it should provide those for other devices, too.

01:35:20   Um, I mentioned the DMA.

01:35:24   I couldn't, I didn't want to talk about it today, so I don't think we're not, I don't want to.

01:35:30   Okay, so let's not.

01:35:31   But, like, I've just put a link in the show notes that Apple wrote a big thing again about the DMA and why it's so terrible for everybody.

01:35:37   But, to me, it just felt like not really worth rehashing, but I just wanted to mark that it was a thing that happened.

01:35:42   We're going to keep the good vibes rolling for now, and if we want to get into it, we will get into it next time.

01:35:48   Or another time.

01:35:49   I just, I have nothing to say about it.

01:35:51   Yeah, it's the same old thing.

01:35:52   It's like, you know, by offering different app stores, you're somehow a limiting choice.

01:35:57   It's amazing, some of the work that they're doing there.

01:36:00   Yeah, it's great.

01:36:01   Mark Gurman is also reporting that Apple is gearing up for production of M5 MacBook Pros.

01:36:06   I would like to make a clarification from last week's episode.

01:36:08   I don't know if I read something wrong or conflated to different reports, but there is expected to be a M5 MacBook Pro that comes out towards the end of this year or early 2026.

01:36:23   This is not the OLED touchscreen model, which is also still expected to come in 2026, but not the next revision of the MacBook Pro.

01:36:31   This is what we think the sequencing will be, is late this year or early next year, there will be an M5 MacBook Pro.

01:36:37   It will be the last of the current generation of MacBook Pros.

01:36:40   It will use a new M5 chip, but it will be very familiar.

01:36:44   If you've got an M4, like I do, it'll just be that with a different chip in it.

01:36:47   Then, next fall, there will be an M6 MacBook Pro with OLED and a touchscreen.

01:36:54   If they do the M5 MacBook Pros early next year, it'll be like it happened the last time, where there will be two MacBook Pro releases in a single year, because they're kind of like filling out the old line, and then they're kicking into the new line, and that's how they'll do it.

01:37:08   So, your OLED touchscreen is going to come late next year, but in the meantime, there will be one last generational revision to what we think of as the current feature set of the MacBook Pro with the M5.

01:37:23   I was like, maybe M6?

01:37:26   I don't know.

01:37:27   Like, is that you would assume?

01:37:29   I mean, I would think that they won't ship that without the M6, right?

01:37:33   That they won't ship two MacBook Pros with the same chip, but who knows how they're chipped?

01:37:36   I mean, if everything else is different?

01:37:38   Map goes, well, no, but like, we're already on to the next generation.

01:37:43   There'll be an iPad.

01:37:45   At the very least, there's going to be an M5 iPad Pro, I would imagine.

01:37:49   So, we're into M5.

01:37:50   So, having the M6 come next October is right on time, I think.

01:37:57   Yeah, but, I mean, yes.

01:37:59   No, you're right.

01:38:00   Yeah, you're right.

01:38:00   As well as these, we're still set for new iPad Pros.

01:38:05   An update to the Vision Pro, that would all be M5.

01:38:08   MacBook Air updates, and two new Mac monitors, all within the same time frame.

01:38:12   So, sometime between now and early 2026.

01:38:14   And Mark is not included in here, but we're still expecting this MacBook.

01:38:18   Like, when are they going to do all of this?

01:38:20   Yeah, and the question is...

01:38:22   It's October next week.

01:38:23   I mean, I think my guess is some of this will come next month, and the rest of it will come

01:38:29   early next year.

01:38:31   Yeah.

01:38:33   And Ryan Gordon and Leanna Baker at Bloomberg are reporting that Intel has approached Apple

01:38:38   for investment.

01:38:40   This is apparently very early discussion, but the companies are talking about how they could

01:38:44   potentially work together.

01:38:45   And this follows a pattern of Intel making some partnerships right now to essentially protect

01:38:50   the business, stop it from imploding.

01:38:54   For Apple, so there's an episode of Dithering that I spoke about this, and it gave me a bit

01:38:59   more insight into it, like Ben was talking about this, and saying that essentially, Apple should

01:39:05   or could consider doing this as a future insurance policy for something occurring with TSMC.

01:39:14   You build up Intel's fab capability, and we're not talking about Apple using Intel processors.

01:39:23   We're talking about the other part of Intel's business that people are very concerned about,

01:39:27   which is making other people ships for them.

01:39:30   That's the fab part of it, fab for rent.

01:39:33   And it comes back to TSMC, which is Taiwan Semiconductor, their headquarters, everything is

01:39:40   emanating from Taiwan.

01:39:40   What happens if something happens to Taiwan?

01:39:42   What happens if China attacks Taiwan?

01:39:44   Does the entire world lose the capability to build chips because of that?

01:39:50   And TSMC has some factories in the U.S., again, because the U.S. is providing incentives

01:39:54   because they want to kind of get over this, but it's not quite the same.

01:39:57   The idea here would be you also keep Intel afloat because there's a counterweight to TSMC,

01:40:02   and they're building things in the U.S., and they're building knowledge in the U.S.

01:40:05   So if something happens to Taiwan, and therefore something happens to TSMC, Intel is there

01:40:10   as at least a fallback, which is interesting.

01:40:12   I mean, Ben and John likened it to paying insurance.

01:40:16   And there's some truth in that.

01:40:19   It's like you're not actually paying for the business now.

01:40:22   You're paying for that business to be around in case you need to jump later.

01:40:26   And you hope you don't have to, but you do pay for it.

01:40:29   It's also, again, this pattern in the United States where there's a lot of, like, because

01:40:35   the U.S. is investing in Intel as well.

01:40:37   I mean, there is, from an American perspective, what is going on here is, oh, no, we used to have

01:40:46   the definitive chipmaker in the world, and they have fumbled it.

01:40:51   They are now on hard times, and it's bad for America if they're no longer viable, because

01:40:59   then the only source is Taiwan Semiconductor.

01:41:03   So I get it.

01:41:07   I would add the only bit of analysis, I guess, that I would add to this is just because we

01:41:16   can't think of anything that Intel could provide Apple, I'm sure there's something Intel could

01:41:19   provide Apple.

01:41:20   It might not be an A-series chip or an M-series chip, but I bet there's stuff they could fab

01:41:26   for Apple.

01:41:27   I bet there's stuff that Apple uses that is not as crucial, and I know it burns Intel to

01:41:32   be like, well, we'll throw you a bone or something, but I'm sure there's a bone that could be thrown

01:41:37   to Intel if they want to actually fab some chips for Apple that are up to speed, but it's not

01:41:43   going to be a chip in an iPhone or probably a Mac or an iPad, but I'm sure there could be

01:41:47   something, but really this is about trying to maintain American chip production capacity

01:41:54   in the long run, because there is a fundamental danger of having so much of it be in Taiwan.

01:42:02   like, I don't know, I agree with this idea, by the way, like, I think that it is a good

01:42:09   idea for American tech companies to make sure that Intel is around.

01:42:17   I know that Intel essentially have screwed up, which we've gotten to this point.

01:42:22   Bailouts are never a great thing, but sometimes there are reasons you do it.

01:42:27   And I think that there are lots of reasons to do this.

01:42:29   Like, I think that there is like, it makes, to me, it makes a lot of sense that you would

01:42:35   make sure that this company was around for the long haul, whether that makes you happy or

01:42:39   not.

01:42:39   I mean, nothing is forever.

01:42:41   Intel lost this lead.

01:42:43   TSMC is riding high, but nothing is forever.

01:42:45   And if Intel gets enough momentum, it could become a relevant option for Apple, maybe not

01:42:56   now, but maybe in a few years, even if Taiwan is not invaded by China and TSMC is still able

01:43:05   to do whatever it needs to do.

01:43:08   And yeah, it's, again, to have the United States and U.S. tech companies place a bet

01:43:14   that's like, I know it's essentially saying Intel is too big to fail, but there's a real

01:43:19   strong argument that Intel is too big to fail, that it would be too catastrophic if Intel failed.

01:43:26   I did have a thought, I had a stray thought, which is like, I know Apple had to buy Intel's

01:43:32   modem business and took it, you know, to years and years to ship their own modem and all that.

01:43:37   But I have, I had that thought of like, would Apple ever entertain the idea of just saying,

01:43:43   okay, we'll fab it ourselves.

01:43:45   And I think the answer is no, for the same reason that they don't manufacture themselves.

01:43:49   They have Foxconn do it and other companies do it, is there's a level below which Apple

01:43:54   doesn't actually feel like they need to go.

01:43:56   They're not, they're happy with TSMC fabbing their chips for them.

01:43:59   They don't need to fab their own chips.

01:44:01   They're doing the design part.

01:44:02   So I don't think they would go down there, but I think it's an interesting idea

01:44:05   of like how intertwined might Apple become with Intel.

01:44:09   They also want to, you know, TSMC, they want TSMC to invest in American factories as well.

01:44:15   So I don't know.

01:44:17   I think that, yeah, this is all about strategic, nobody run out and say Apple's going to build

01:44:22   another Intel Mac because that's not going to happen.

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01:46:35   It is time for some Ask Upgrade questions.

01:46:40   Scott writes in and says, with the iPhone Air having all the compute in the camera bump,

01:46:46   and iPhone chips being compatible to computer chips, do you think there's a world in which

01:46:51   Apple starts putting full computers into smaller objects like keyboards and trackpads?

01:46:55   And Dominic wrote in and said, what do you think about a Mac inside of a USB stick?

01:47:00   All right.

01:47:01   First off, what would the Mac and the USB stick attach to?

01:47:05   Another Mac?

01:47:06   Put it into a mic, all right?

01:47:08   All right.

01:47:09   Well, I mean...

01:47:11   TVs and why not just have USBs in them?

01:47:13   USB sticks.

01:47:13   Yeah, but not for...

01:47:15   Not for that amount of power.

01:47:16   It'd be like Thunderbolt, right?

01:47:18   Yeah.

01:47:18   What you're talking about there essentially is a TV streaming stick, like the Amazon stick.

01:47:24   And so it would be HDMI, and then it would be USB powered.

01:47:27   I laugh at this because we just spent 15 years hoping the Mac Mini would get smaller, and then

01:47:35   the Mac Mini got smaller.

01:47:36   So talk to me in another 15 years.

01:47:39   Not small enough.

01:47:41   I think the answer is the Mac Mini is as small a device as Apple is interested in making.

01:47:47   However, I will say Apple TV, like we've all been saying, wouldn't it be nice if there

01:47:53   was a smaller Apple TV?

01:47:54   Maybe they could do that.

01:47:58   That would be...

01:47:59   You know, they could make their own little Apple TV stick.

01:48:00   It would still probably cost too much, but they could do it, and you just hang it off the

01:48:05   TV.

01:48:05   That's more of a possibility than a teeny tiny Mac, I think.

01:48:10   The teeny tiny Mac is the MacBook Air.

01:48:11   It just comes with a keyboard and a screen.

01:48:14   But I feel like the Mac Mini is where they want to go with small Macs for right now.

01:48:20   I will say the keyboard thing makes me slightly intrigued.

01:48:23   I just saw how there's a new Raspberry Pi keyboard thing where it's like a whole computer inside

01:48:28   a keyboard.

01:48:28   It's probably impractical, but I do have that thought of like, oh, you know, what if there's

01:48:34   just a Mac that's a keyboard?

01:48:35   Yeah.

01:48:35   Right?

01:48:36   And then you plug it into a monitor and the keyboard is the Mac.

01:48:39   Are you getting it yet?

01:48:40   It's a keyboard and a Mac all in one.

01:48:43   That could be cool.

01:48:44   I'm not sure Apple wants to do that.

01:48:46   Right?

01:48:46   I feel like the...

01:48:48   They like the iMac.

01:48:50   They like the Mac Mini, and that's all they want to do.

01:48:52   But that's the one that strikes me as that would be pretty awesome, is if you had a keyboard

01:48:55   or maybe even a keyboard trackpad combo that was also a Mac that you could just attach

01:48:59   anywhere you went, that would be pretty sweet.

01:49:01   Logan writes in and said, while blood oxygen sensing is now back on the Apple Watch with

01:49:09   the results being displayed on the iPhone, why isn't the same data available in the vital

01:49:14   section on the iPhone?

01:49:16   I understand it not being able to be displayed on the watch, but if it's already displayed

01:49:20   on the iPhone in the blood oxygen section, why can't it be displayed in the vital section?

01:49:25   Now, I'll say, this is an example of a classic kind of question that we get, which we obviously

01:49:31   cannot answer, right?

01:49:32   Like, Jason and I do not have the answer to this question.

01:49:35   However, I thought it was interesting.

01:49:37   Now, you can tell me if this is the case, because I know for me, on the Apple Watch vitals, both

01:49:43   on my watch and in the health app on my iPhone, blood oxygen is a part of my vitals.

01:49:50   So, is that not the case for you then?

01:49:54   And if so, why?

01:49:56   Like, if you have the data now, why can't that be put back into the vitals system?

01:50:02   It's not on the watch, I think, because of Massimo.

01:50:07   But what about the, but now that you have the blood oxygen sensing back on the phone, why

01:50:13   does it not show up there?

01:50:15   So, just, it's an interesting, again, we don't know, but it's interesting.

01:50:18   My guess is because this strategy of syncing oxygen back to the phone happened relatively

01:50:25   soon.

01:50:26   And the vitals app and the vitals tab and the health app were probably built to reflect the

01:50:32   same data set, and that to uncouple them is something that if they want to do, it will

01:50:37   take time.

01:50:38   That's my gut feeling.

01:50:38   Yeah.

01:50:38   I know what you put, that is like too much work to engineer a solution that they're hoping

01:50:44   they don't need long-term.

01:50:46   Right.

01:50:46   You go to the vitals people.

01:50:47   Well, also, you just go roll to the vitals people and you're like, hey, great news.

01:50:50   We have this workaround where we only show it on the phone.

01:50:54   And the vitals people are like, uh, we show it on both.

01:50:58   And they're like, well, can you only show it on the phone and not the watch in the US?

01:51:01   And they're like, that's kind of a big project.

01:51:05   And I go, okay, forget it.

01:51:05   Forget it.

01:51:06   We're going to ship it anyway.

01:51:07   Forget about it.

01:51:07   Open a ticket in Jara.

01:51:08   We'll get back to it later.

01:51:10   You know?

01:51:10   Yeah.

01:51:10   Where do we want to prioritize this?

01:51:13   Let's prioritize this as a nice to have.

01:51:15   Yeah.

01:51:16   And we'll, yeah, because, you know, Mossimo and the patents expiring and do you want to

01:51:21   put in work that's going to just get thrown away and how important is the vitals on the

01:51:24   phone and, and how important is it for you to remain parallel where your vitals on the

01:51:30   phone and your vitals on the watch reflect the same things, right?

01:51:34   Instead of it being like different on the phone.

01:51:36   So it's, this whole thing is so dumb, but that's probably why I think, I feel like we figured

01:51:41   it out.

01:51:43   Reed writes in and says, has Mike ever had issues getting service on his U.S. purchased

01:51:48   eSIM only iPhones in the U.K., especially now that the eSIM only iPhone Pro have a larger

01:51:54   battery than their SIM slot counterparts.

01:51:56   And of course we have the Air, which is eSIM only everywhere.

01:51:59   I'm wondering if this causes any headaches if anything is ever needed.

01:52:04   So I will say I've had absolutely zero problems with this.

01:52:08   So I have, I have been on the eSIM train longer than most people would in my country because

01:52:14   I've been buying iPhones in America for years, like from when they were first eSIM phones,

01:52:19   right?

01:52:20   In the States, which was a few years ago.

01:52:21   The first year or two, it was, I couldn't do the transfer while I was in America, but now

01:52:28   that works.

01:52:29   I can, I don't know how on earth that happens, but it does.

01:52:32   And I have made the transfer many times.

01:52:35   I even just transferred an eSIM from an Android phone to an iPhone.

01:52:40   All of this stuff is just handled by the carrier app.

01:52:43   So I'm an EE customer.

01:52:45   That's the name of my cell network.

01:52:47   And they have just functionality in their app for moving your eSIM from device to device.

01:52:52   Like it's not complicated and has worked for me flawlessly in the ways in which I would

01:52:59   expect it to.

01:53:00   And even now also somehow works on my overseas.

01:53:03   I don't recommend that you do that.

01:53:05   I was just curious one year if it would work and it did.

01:53:07   And I was like, oh, okay.

01:53:09   But the actual transfer from device to device is really very simple.

01:53:15   So, you know, I don't necessarily recommend that you buy a phone in another country.

01:53:22   Like I do that because you just kind of need to do that.

01:53:27   And I'm lucky that UK and US cell bands are the same.

01:53:33   Like I remember looking this up years ago because different phones are sold in different territories.

01:53:38   They won't all work everywhere to get the best speeds.

01:53:41   But the UK and the US use the same bands.

01:53:44   Like the devices have the same kind of antennas in them.

01:53:47   I do recommend.

01:53:48   I recommend that when you go to a different country, you buy a phone there as a souvenir

01:53:52   and bring it home just for fun, for kicks.

01:53:56   I remind you every time.

01:53:58   It's scary.

01:53:58   It's a laugh.

01:53:59   That's right.

01:53:59   Why can't I hear you?

01:54:00   It's because I bought this phone in Singapore.

01:54:04   Yeah.

01:54:05   Well, it works great.

01:54:08   My name is Mike Hurley and I'm here to tell you not to be scared of eSims.

01:54:12   It's fine.

01:54:14   Right?

01:54:14   Like people were scared.

01:54:15   It's fine.

01:54:16   I was scared too.

01:54:17   I was scared too because I review a bunch of phones and I used to just pop the Sims back

01:54:20   and forth.

01:54:21   And you know what I do now?

01:54:22   I just pop the eSims back and forth.

01:54:23   It's fine.

01:54:25   And Matt asked me another question, which is, am I playing Hollow Knight Silksong?

01:54:29   And I will say no, because I'm too scared of that video game.

01:54:32   It's too hard for me.

01:54:34   Oh, interesting.

01:54:35   Yeah.

01:54:36   It's very, very tough.

01:54:36   But it's the game of the moment.

01:54:38   Although I did just start playing Hades 2 this weekend.

01:54:41   And that game, oh boy, love it.

01:54:43   Hollow Knight was a favorite, a childhood favorite of my son.

01:54:49   Really?

01:54:49   He must be playing Silksong then.

01:54:51   Undoubtedly.

01:54:52   You should just text him and say, are you playing Silksong?

01:54:55   Just say that.

01:54:56   Just like...

01:54:57   We talked about it.

01:54:57   We talked about it.

01:54:58   Oh, there you go.

01:54:59   So I am convinced that he's playing Silksong because the whole world is playing Silksong.

01:55:03   But Hades 2, that's more my speed.

01:55:05   And I think that just is...

01:55:08   The other thing for me of Silksong, I'm not really playing games at the moment to try because

01:55:14   I just don't have that time at the moment.

01:55:16   So I'm playing games that I'm convinced that I'm going to like.

01:55:19   And I loved Hades.

01:55:20   So I'm enjoying Hades 2.

01:55:22   It's actually really fun because I've now just started listening to the Restless History

01:55:27   episode about Greek myths.

01:55:29   Hades 2 is based in Greek mythology.

01:55:31   So that's true.

01:55:32   So I'm getting a bit of backstory.

01:55:34   If you would like to send in a question for us to answer in a future episode of the show,

01:55:39   you can also send in your feedback and follow up to us at upgradefeedback.com.

01:55:43   I'd like to thank our members who support us with Upgrade Plus.

01:55:46   They get longer ad-free episodes each and every week.

01:55:49   The companies that provide the advertising on this episode was eBiotics, Claude, Ecamm,

01:55:55   and HelloFresh.

01:55:56   Thank you to them for their support.

01:55:58   If you'd like a video version of the show, you can search for it on YouTube.

01:56:02   We're at Upgrade Podcast.

01:56:03   Don't forget, go to stjude.org slash relay.

01:56:05   Donate what you can to help support the fight against childhood cancer.

01:56:10   I want to thank you all for listening.

01:56:12   We'll be back next week.

01:56:13   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:56:15   Goodbye, Mike Hurley.