00:00:09 ◼ ► So I just got back from my, it's become a bit of an annual tradition, my like post-September
00:00:31 ◼ ► We get through that, we get through September, iOS launches, new phones launch, all the things
00:00:36 ◼ ► We tidy up all the issues and bugs that are in the new iOS, you know, the new OSs and the
00:00:40 ◼ ► And I find myself generally at the end of that to be rather worn down, rather tired and ready
00:00:59 ◼ ► And then you have all this input coming in from users and, you know, your own ideas for things
00:01:07 ◼ ► And you, you know, early years, I would be like, okay, now I'm, you know, I've got those
00:01:14 ◼ ► And the thing that's difficult about a break and a bit of rest is that you don't know how
00:01:22 ◼ ► And several times, I think I've found that I would, by diving right in right away, I would
00:01:37 ◼ ► And what would actually be much more productive and much more useful is scheduling in a time
00:01:45 ◼ ► And what I find is I'm actually, you know, much more able to ship things out in the next
00:01:50 ◼ ► few months, having taken this break, because the nature of a break and the reason you don't
00:01:55 ◼ ► know how much you need it until you actually take it is your brain is a complicated thing.
00:02:01 ◼ ► And if it is, at least for me, I find over the summer, it is operating at a much higher level,
00:02:08 ◼ ► There's so many sort of background processes constantly running, just like wearing down
00:02:14 ◼ ► And those sort of that pressure can only, in my case, I found be something I can release
00:02:21 ◼ ► by taking a break, by not thinking about code, you know, closing my computer, not opening Xcode.
00:02:31 ◼ ► And you can finally sort of get back down to like, you know, sort of zero utilization on
00:02:38 ◼ ► And it is important to do that, because otherwise, you are just, you know, eventually you're just
00:02:46 ◼ ► I just got back from, had a lovely trip to Ireland, you know, went hiking and walking and
00:03:02 ◼ ► there's this is sort of the medium version, the taking a break for a couple of weeks, you
00:03:07 ◼ ► could start on the other extreme where you say like the sabbatical kind of leave where you're
00:03:14 ◼ ► So we have, you know, months at a time, weeks at a time, days at a time, hours at a time,
00:03:20 ◼ ► And I think at each of those kind of gradients, rest will have different impacts on us and
00:03:52 ◼ ► But, you know, but it is kind of generally regarded as like, oh, yeah, of course, that's
00:04:12 ◼ ► It can really cause a lot of problems over time of generally feeling overwhelmed, feeling
00:04:18 ◼ ► It's obviously not great for mental or physical health to never have any kind of rest time.
00:04:36 ◼ ► And so we, you know, we can kind of do whatever we want in terms of like, you know, day to day.
00:04:42 ◼ ► Like if I want to take this afternoon off so I can go to the post office or bring my kids
00:04:52 ◼ ► So it does seem like the indie life really lends itself well to like short to medium size
00:05:02 ◼ ► But when it comes time to like, I'm going to take a week off, a few weeks off or a month
00:05:09 ◼ ► off, like that starts to get a lot harder for indies because when we are not working, our
00:05:23 ◼ ► So that can that can make it feel very difficult to truly relax or truly, you know, let go because
00:05:49 ◼ ► you know, in the sense of I was saying that we have like the different levels, like the
00:05:57 ◼ ► And I think the classic version where I think most people would reasonably go on sabbatical
00:06:00 ◼ ► or something similar to it is after the birth of a child, you know, so going on maternity
00:06:11 ◼ ► developer and I really wasn't able to take large amounts of time off in terms of not, you
00:06:19 ◼ ► know, not checking into work, not doing things like you can kind of take work from a high level
00:06:29 ◼ ► You have a little bits of work here and there and you can sort of slow down the process.
00:06:34 ◼ ► But I was never able to feel comfortable sort of not checking in, not engaging with that.
00:06:43 ◼ ► Like I think, like you said, the flexibility we get from being our own boss and having more
00:06:49 ◼ ► control over our schedule comes at the cost, I think, of having it making it very difficult
00:06:56 ◼ ► And I think and the reality is, I think one of the challenging things I sometimes think
00:07:00 ◼ ► about with something less longer, like a sabbatical or, you know, taking a couple of months off
00:07:04 ◼ ► is I think from a rest and the benefit of the rest perspective, it probably reaches a point
00:07:11 ◼ ► of diminishing returns relatively early in that process where at some point it may have other
00:07:18 ◼ ► benefits, like from people I know who've taken sabbaticals or longer periods, like it was useful
00:07:23 ◼ ► for their life to gain some sort of broader perspective or to understand other things about
00:07:29 ◼ ► But at some point, the just I'm worn out from work or I want to recharge my cognitive and
00:07:35 ◼ ► creative abilities likely reaches a point of diminishing return where that is not being
00:07:43 ◼ ► And that at some point, honestly, the challenge in our business is technology is constantly moving
00:07:54 ◼ ► And so that was a thing that happened that I have not had the time yet to unpack and look
00:08:01 ◼ ► And if I was gone for several weeks, there'd be several betas and several issues and several
00:08:05 ◼ ► things that would have happened that isn't just work piling up, that it's like the world
00:08:11 ◼ ► And so, you know, if I had gone on holiday in May of this year and then suddenly picked
00:08:21 ◼ ► all the things having happened in the meantime, like it would have been completely chaos and
00:08:25 ◼ ► And so I think that level of break, I don't feel too bad in some ways that I don't think
00:08:47 ◼ ► It can be hard too, because like when you think about a longer break, you know, the way a lot
00:08:57 ◼ ► If you're really in need of a break for, you know, for the kind of thing you're working
00:09:01 ◼ ► on, one thing you can do is look for a different job or decide to take off for a few months.
00:09:07 ◼ ► When you're an indie, you can't really do that unless you are ready to shut down your business
00:09:29 ◼ ► And so for the most part, you know, we have the jobs that we've created for ourselves if
00:09:47 ◼ ► But then once you have it, you also have, you know, one challenge of that success is you
00:09:57 ◼ ► Another angle that I think keeps me tied to work and makes it hard for me to walk away for
00:10:05 ◼ ► even, you know, a week or two is, you know, because it's my product and because I see all
00:10:18 ◼ ► And I see all the feedback channels, all the emails, all the, you know, reviews, all the
00:10:27 ◼ ► Or I see things that need improvement that, you know, there's certain bugs left or, you
00:10:43 ◼ ► And it's this infinite to-do list that will never end, that I will never feel caught up
00:10:49 ◼ ► So it's very difficult for me when I face that huge list of things that either I want to do
00:10:57 ◼ ► or that my customers are telling me I need to do and to say, I'm going to take a week off.
00:11:05 ◼ ► I mean, I'm sure, you know, I'm sure many of the upset customers would also decide that
00:11:18 ◼ ► It is okay for me to just watch a concert tonight, to watch a concert video on my couch tonight
00:11:37 ◼ ► Maybe it's a weird connection, but it really makes me think of something that I've sort of
00:11:42 ◼ ► come to learn and understand in fitness when you're training, where very often you will
00:11:49 ◼ ► do interval training or training that is based on, you know, sort of some kind of work-rest
00:11:56 ◼ ► You know, so it's like go fast for two minutes and then rest for two minutes and then go fast
00:12:02 ◼ ► And I think something that I took was someone recently asked was talking to someone about
00:12:07 ◼ ► about sort of the, how much rest do you need between, you know, between intervals and how
00:12:12 ◼ ► And I think something that sort of came up in that conversation that I thought was really
00:12:15 ◼ ► relevant here is the sense that the reason the rest is there is to make the work periods
00:12:24 ◼ ► And you want to take however much rest you need to have the work be as effective as you
00:12:39 ◼ ► sort of work rest in terms of my actual programming is for me to do my best work, for me to make
00:12:45 ◼ ► the best versions of something, I need to have periods of rest long enough and regular enough
00:12:51 ◼ ► that I'm able to recover and come back at it with creativity, with the interest, with, you
00:12:58 ◼ ► know, excitement, enthusiasm, motivation, all of the things that are combined to be my best
00:13:02 ◼ ► work. And if I take too short or too infrequent breaks, I'm not going to be able to do that.
00:13:12 ◼ ► And I think that switch has been very helpful for me to justify in my mind sort of the things
00:13:18 ◼ ► that you're just describing where it's the, oh, but, you know, if I stopped, if I, if I stop
00:13:24 ◼ ► working, these things are going to pile up, or I really want to do this, or I really think
00:13:32 ◼ ► am I doing, am I able physically and mentally and cognitively and creatively and all of
00:13:37 ◼ ► those metrics able to actually do good, great work right now? Or am I just kind of just sort
00:13:43 ◼ ► of sleepwalking through this, doing my best, kind of struggling to feel creative to, you
00:13:48 ◼ ► know, if I, if I hit a problem and I'm trying to come up with a good solution for it, do I
00:13:51 ◼ ► feel like I have the energy to do that? And if, if I don't, then it's like, I need to go
00:14:02 ◼ ► into that. And I think changing it from that, from the perspective of I'm neglecting something
00:14:08 ◼ ► by taking a rest to, I'm allowing myself to do better and more effective work when I come
00:14:15 ◼ ► back has just, for me, has been very helpful. Just that reframing a little bit, because otherwise
00:14:20 ◼ ► I do feel like I'm letting my customers down. I'm letting myself down. And I mean, sometimes
00:14:23 ◼ ► there's the honesty and kind of kindness you have to have to yourself of, I think it's easy
00:14:29 ◼ ► sometimes to have the like, well, I should just do it. Like I'm a professional, like this, you
00:14:34 ◼ ► know, professionals just show up and do the work regardless. And it's like, okay, maybe that's
00:14:39 ◼ ► sometimes true. But the reality is like, unless I really am honest, like I can be honest with
00:14:43 ◼ ► myself and say like, am I just being a slacker? Do I just want to, you know, whatever, watch
00:14:46 ◼ ► movies and do nothing? Or is it, I really need that break? I nearly, and the result of that
00:14:52 ◼ ► break will be effective. And if I can honestly say, I think having the break will be effective,
00:14:55 ◼ ► then I should take it. And then I should feel confident in taking it and happy that I'm doing
00:15:01 ◼ ► it so that when I come back, I can be more effective, that I can be more productive. And I think
00:15:07 ◼ ► that's a pattern that the more I've gotten into this and you sort of get a sense of how much
00:15:11 ◼ ► rest you need and how often you need it and when you need it, like you can be more productive. I was
00:15:16 ◼ ► much more productive last fall than I think I would have been if I hadn't taken a similar trip at the
00:15:20 ◼ ► end of September, like after the big push, it's very useful to have this period where like all I have
00:15:26 ◼ ► lots of work waiting for me, you know, at the end, it's not like, oh, the work is finished when you
00:15:30 ◼ ► ship your, you know, your, uh, your September release, but there's lots of work, you know, just that
00:15:35 ◼ ► I was waiting to start now, but I feel much more able to do it now because I'm not worn down.
00:15:40 ◼ ► My brain is sort of sharp and ready and I'm able to dive into it. And I know that I will,
00:15:46 ◼ ► as a result, probably get more done in many ways, more quickly than if I hadn't taken the break,
00:15:51 ◼ ► which is always a slightly funny dynamic. Um, but I think that I find is just a very helpful way to
00:15:55 ◼ ► frame taking that rest because you're, you it's, it's for a purpose, not for like, it's not as much
00:16:02 ◼ ► as it is leisure, you know, you're bringing in leisure into your life. It's not for just that
00:16:07 ◼ ► purpose. It is not just for fun. It is not just for that purpose. It is something that is effective
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00:18:08 ◼ ► Yeah. And I think breaking down from that kind of big week long break, I think it's interesting to
00:18:14 ◼ ► just talk about some of the smaller breaks that we'll probably take. So I think many of us probably
00:18:19 ◼ ► live in a part of the world where a weekend is a thing that you work for a few days and then you take
00:18:23 ◼ ► a couple of days off. And I think as an indie, especially, that is super important just from
00:18:30 ◼ ► a perspective of you can work all the time. But if you want to have a social life, if you want to
00:18:35 ◼ ► have a family life, if you want the sort of thing, the usual relationships that you have in your life,
00:18:42 ◼ ► like I very early discovered and have found just the importance of while I could, in theory, work
00:18:48 ◼ ► six days a week, seven days a week, I could work odd schedules where I take my days off in the middle
00:18:54 ◼ ► of the week. Like that sometimes could be helpful. And there have been periods of my career where things
00:18:59 ◼ ► are just really hectic and I have to do that. But generally speaking, I find it's important to take
00:19:05 ◼ ► those regular breaks at regular times so that you can have regular relationships because not everyone
00:19:09 ◼ ► in your life is likely an indie developer who has complete flexibility and control of their own
00:19:13 ◼ ► schedule. So strongly recommend doing that. And similarly, like the next level down, you know, the
00:19:19 ◼ ► importance of having somewhat of a reasonable daily schedule is just as important that, you know, for
00:19:25 ◼ ► me, I work roughly kind of office hours, sort of nine to five. And I don't do that because it is
00:19:31 ◼ ► necessarily something that I have to do. There's not very few external pressures driving me in that
00:19:36 ◼ ► direction. But I found for my family that it was very helpful for them for me to be reliably around,
00:19:41 ◼ ► you know, when the kids get home from school, my wife knows I'm coming home, like that is a pattern
00:19:45 ◼ ► that has been super helpful. And in the earlier times in my career where I didn't take that sort
00:19:51 ◼ ► of thing, I would work till the work was done or until I felt like I was about there or whatever,
00:19:56 ◼ ► like it created these weird conflicts and tensions that even if necessarily from a work rest perspective,
00:20:03 ◼ ► weren't as destructive, but were much more complicated and had issues that were, you know,
00:20:08 ◼ ► sort of knock on effects, you know, through my life. And I think having regular schedule is an
00:20:13 ◼ ► important part of this kind of concept of being rested and recovered and ready to do your work.
00:20:17 ◼ ► Because I think people just like, we thrive on routine, as certainly I do. And so having a sense
00:20:25 ◼ ► of routine in your sort of weekly schedule and your daily schedule is just as helpful because there's
00:20:30 ◼ ► something useful I find when I come to, you know, I come to work ready to work, and then it gets to
00:20:35 ◼ ► sort of late afternoon, four or five o'clock, and I'm like, yeah, I'm ready. I think it's good for me to
00:20:39 ◼ ► leave this here. And every now and then there'll be a thing, you know, I'll text my wife and say,
00:20:42 ◼ ► oh, I'm going to be a couple hours later, because I just had a breakthrough. And I'm really in this
00:20:47 ◼ ► problem, and I'm going to work on it. And that's fine. But that is the, you know, sort of the rare
00:20:54 ◼ ► Hmm. Yeah, it's I mean, everything you're saying is things that I have told myself or the other people
00:21:01 ◼ ► have told me, and I and I think, yeah, I should do that. I don't do it. But I think I should. And it's
00:21:09 ◼ ► hard to make that jump from, I think I should to now I'm actually doing it. And to actually make that
00:21:17 ◼ ► push. I have found like, to some degree, you know, you have to, you know, when we look at the kind of
00:21:24 ◼ ► typical, you know, office space, work boss and work world, your boss wants you to be in this chair
00:21:30 ◼ ► from nine to five, and thinks if we need to, if we're behind on work, that why don't we just,
00:21:36 ◼ ► you know, make everybody come in early or stay late or work the weekend or whatever. Well, that's not
00:21:41 ◼ ► really that sustainable and doesn't really produce good outcomes. And in fact, oftentimes, if you overwork
00:21:47 ◼ ► people, you actually get worse productivity, even in the aggregate, even even the sum of it all, not
00:21:53 ◼ ► even just the per hour rate, but even the sum of it ends up being worse, because the quality goes down,
00:21:58 ◼ ► you have more problems, people start burning out. So it's easy for us as indies to be able to look at
00:22:03 ◼ ► that from the outside and say, yeah, they shouldn't work people so long. But then, are we able to extend
00:22:10 ◼ ► that to ourselves? Are we able to look at our own work patterns and say, maybe I should not work
00:22:16 ◼ ► until I go to bed every day? Like, maybe, maybe that is too much work. And maybe I should just
00:22:22 ◼ ► limit it to, you know, these hours of the day that I am most productive. And in the other hours, I
00:22:28 ◼ ► actually, not only like, am I just kind of accepting, oh, I'm tired, I guess I have to stop now. But maybe
00:22:35 ◼ ► I should actually, you know, embrace that and say, I'm going to work for these hours. And then I'm going
00:22:42 ◼ ► to choose not to, I'm going to choose to stop for these other hours over here. But that's really
00:22:50 ◼ ► Yeah. And I guess the thing that I would think about, and maybe it's just, obviously, this is one of those
00:22:56 ◼ ► challenging questions, but it's like the why, why do you find that difficult? You know, what about it?
00:23:02 ◼ ► And it could, the answer could be that it isn't the right solution for you. Like the solution that
00:23:05 ◼ ► I'm describing has worked super well, you know, for me and my situation and the way that my brain works
00:23:10 ◼ ► and all these things. And the reality is, as much as you and I are very similar in terms of our
00:23:15 ◼ ► background or expertise, you know, our experience, the job we do and all these things, we are very
00:23:20 ◼ ► different people. I think we know we've spent the last, you know, almost 10 years talking about the
00:23:24 ◼ ► different ways in which we work. And it's entirely possible that the answer that is right for me
00:23:28 ◼ ► is the opposite of what would be right for you. It would help you to be, to be most effective.
00:23:32 ◼ ► And I think the, but the thing, the reality is, it's probably, it's a thing to try, right? It's a,
00:23:37 ◼ ► it's a place to try and see. And if it isn't the right answer for you, I think more fundamentally is
00:23:43 ◼ ► just making sure that you are still allowing yourself the ability to feel recharged, that when
00:23:48 ◼ ► you're, when you're working, you feel engaged and productive. And if you feel engaged and productive,
00:23:53 ◼ ► awesome, whatever system that is, you know, if you're working for two hours, then taking a break for
00:23:58 ◼ ► 10 minutes every time. And then you sleep six hours. Like, I mean, we could come up with some
00:24:01 ◼ ► kind of absurd, but from my perspective, like deranged schedule, but if it was super effective
00:24:05 ◼ ► for you, like, awesome, do it. But more importantly, like finding a work, a work rest ratio and schedule
00:24:12 ◼ ► that allows you to be productive and allows you to be creative, especially like, that's the thing
00:24:16 ◼ ► that I find really goes for me, that there's certain kinds of work that I just can't do when I'm
00:24:22 ◼ ► tired or when I'm not, when I've kind of been burning the candle a bit too long for a bit too
00:24:27 ◼ ► long. Like that's where I really start to struggle that I don't have good creative solutions. I can do
00:24:31 ◼ ► like the basic boring kind of boilerplate work, but when it gets creative and interesting, it starts to
00:24:36 ◼ ► really struggle. But, you know, it's like, find that for you and, you know, and see. And as long as it's
00:24:40 ◼ ► like, if what you're doing is feel sustainable, if it feels like it isn't something wearing on you
00:24:44 ◼ ► long-term, then maybe that's fine too. But, you know, otherwise just, I'd say, try it. And it's
00:24:49 ◼ ► like, see if that, see if it feels different, see how it changes or see how you, what part of it is
00:24:56 ◼ ► Yeah, that's, that's really good, you know, because I, because I've noticed too, like when I, you know,
00:25:01 ◼ ► if I just keep burning the candle at both ends, I noticed that the quality of my work does suffer.
00:25:05 ◼ ► And sometimes like if I'm working really late on a problem and I'm just, I'm not succeeding,
00:25:12 ◼ ► sometimes I'll wake up the next morning and, and just, you know, quick aside, the way my brain
00:25:16 ◼ ► works is I carry almost nothing in my brain overnight. Like almost nothing that I was thinking
00:25:23 ◼ ► about or feeling at night is still there in the morning. It's like, it's like I have a clean slate,
00:25:27 ◼ ► you know, like some people, when they wake up in the morning, it's like they just pause their brain,
00:25:31 ◼ ► they just unpause it and they're, they're right back where they were. I'm like a reboot. I'm like,
00:25:34 ◼ ► I, my brain's rebooted. I got a clean slate, fresh day. And this makes me very forgetful,
00:25:39 ◼ ► but also, you know, it's hard for bad moods to carry through and things like that. And one of the,
00:25:42 ◼ ► big advantages in programming is that when I come back the next day to look at a problem,
00:25:47 ◼ ► I will often have a very different perspective or insight about it. I mean, Oh, this method I was
00:25:53 ◼ ► working on last night, there's a reason why I'm not getting progress there. I have it. I have a
00:25:58 ◼ ► totally different idea for a totally different way to do this. It's much simpler. And then usually like
00:26:09 ◼ ► the way I go. And it's way less work and it's way simpler and has way less complexity and bugs and
00:26:15 ◼ ► everything. And I think breaks, you know, in a sense, what I am, what I do every night by sleeping
00:26:21 ◼ ► is forcing myself to take a break of sorts. Um, and so maybe that's a good indicator that I can have
00:26:28 ◼ ► success with other forms of breaks as well, besides the ones that my body biologically forces me to
00:26:34 ◼ ► take. Yeah. No. And I think that's just a useful insight to have, right? Like the understanding that,
00:26:40 ◼ ► I mean, that often happens with me with things like the classic of like going for a walk or taking a
00:26:44 ◼ ► shower and like the solution comes to you. And it's, I think there's a freshness of perspective in there
00:26:49 ◼ ► that is, is useful, but it's definitely not easy. Like I think sometimes I'm in a problem and I just want
00:26:54 ◼ ► to keep working on it until I get it. Like, why can't I do this? And it's like the reality with
00:26:59 ◼ ► both our, with our, our jobs are not like brutes, like sort of like can, it cannot be overcome by
00:27:05 ◼ ► brute strength alone. Like there's a nuance and an elegance to what we're doing that is not like,
00:27:11 ◼ ► if I just keep, if I just keep coding harder, it'll get better. Um, it's like, unfortunately that's
00:27:16 ◼ ► not the case. Um, anyway, I had a funny little pro tip that I was going to want to end up this episode.
00:27:21 ◼ ► So if you've lasted this long, I appreciate it. Maybe you're thinking about taking a break and
00:27:25 ◼ ► something that I did this last break that I wanted to just mention that was super helpful is a couple
00:27:29 ◼ ► of years ago, Apple introduced a thing called hidden apps, um, on, in iOS, which is the ability to take
00:27:36 ◼ ► certain apps and just kind of like put them in a black hole. So you'd like, you right click on it in
00:27:40 ◼ ► the app library and say like, require face ID is essentially the thing. And it's, I imagine it's for,
00:27:44 ◼ ► you know, for people in situations where there's apps that they don't want other people to know that
00:27:48 ◼ ► they're using or whatever, or require certain apps to have face ID. I've never had a personal,
00:27:52 ◼ ► I use for that in my own life personally, but I, for this last time I went on this break,
00:27:56 ◼ ► I took all my work apps. So like net news wire, I took Slack, anything related to my work,
00:28:02 ◼ ► especially things that have notifications or inputs like that set, put them into the black hole
00:28:07 ◼ ► and left them there for the week. And what was gene, what I found super helpful. And why I wanted to
00:28:13 ◼ ► mention it here is I didn't have to mess with all my notification settings and turn things off and
00:28:18 ◼ ► use focus modes and all these weird things that are super broke. Like I would find really awkward to get
00:28:23 ◼ ► back to the way that I liked them. It's just, the app was there. All the notifications like went to
00:28:28 ◼ ► Dev null. I never saw them. They just like happened in disappeared because the nature of a hidden app is
00:28:32 ◼ ► that there's no sign of it anywhere on your phone. When I got to the end of my break, I opened the
00:28:37 ◼ ► hidden apps folder, took the apps, took them back out. Everything's just like I left it. All my
00:28:42 ◼ ► notifications, all my settings are just like they were before. And so I just wanted to mention that
00:28:45 ◼ ► if you're going on a break, consider putting, you know, the things that are going to be most
00:28:49 ◼ ► detrimental to your rest in the hidden apps folder, put them there for the week, for the weekend,
00:28:54 ◼ ► whatever it is. And then know that, you know, when you come back, your settings will be just like