00:00:09 ◼ ► So I don't know if you remember what you were doing on November 4th, 2015, necessarily,
00:00:32 ◼ ► I listened to our very first episode, and we were remarking about the launch of the Apple TV App Store.
00:00:41 ◼ ► Which goes to say just how long we've been doing this show, because that is a long time.
00:01:19 ◼ ► and I think you'd started ATP, but we were sort of looking for a more developer-focused outlet.
00:01:26 ◼ ► And I had a show, Developing Perspective, which was a solo show that I'd been doing for several years.
00:01:37 ◼ ► And so reaching 10 years, and it's one of those things that there's no easy way to necessarily say this,
00:01:47 ◼ ► We're winding down the show and leaving it at sort of 10 years being a good run for it.
00:02:03 ◼ ► In many ways, almost necessarily our most core audience are the people who started 10 years ago
00:02:27 ◼ ► And so I sort of, I can take the blame and the credit or whatever way you want to look at that for that.
00:02:33 ◼ ► Or at the very least, I feel somewhat responsible to explain sort of where I was coming from
00:02:40 ◼ ► And really, at its core, I think I've found, you know, being online and having an online presence
00:02:49 ◼ ► and sharing your opinion and commentary and having opinions on the internet is a complicated thing.
00:03:11 ◼ ► you can make your online presence something that is additive and beneficial to the world
00:03:22 ◼ ► And something that I've found for myself is I've kind of had to develop, like, I don't know,
00:03:27 ◼ ► like principles or guidelines for myself that I try and live by that help me stay sane having an online presence.
00:03:33 ◼ ► And like rule number one is that you don't need to have, nor should you, have an opinion on everything.
00:03:40 ◼ ► That you don't have to always comment or react to anything that's happening in the world.
00:03:53 ◼ ► Like, maybe it's useful for you, but this is, these are the things that I tell myself is that
00:04:00 ◼ ► And generally only when doing so is helpful to the broader discussion that I'm doing things that I feel,
00:04:06 ◼ ► you know, talking about things in a place that I feel like I can make a meaningful contribution.
00:04:10 ◼ ► And two is the publicity of my opinions should be directly proportional to my expertise in the subject that I'm talking about.
00:04:21 ◼ ► You know, and so for something that I'm sharing widely and publicly, I should have a really relatively strong area of expertise.
00:04:38 ◼ ► You know, in some ways, this is in our years of recording the show, one of the funny things is, like, there's two shows.
00:04:57 ◼ ► And so it's having that area of expertise and that strength in your belief in what you're saying, I think, is a useful prerequisite for sharing things publicly.
00:05:07 ◼ ► And the thing that I found is probably starting maybe six-ish months ago, I was finding that both of these were becoming more of a struggle for me around Under the Radar, around my general sort of contribution and feeling that many weeks we were searching for something to talk about rather than feeling like there was something urgent and meaningful that we sort of needed to share.
00:05:30 ◼ ► And some of this is just coming from the age and the focus of the show where we have, in some ways, I think, literally covered every core topic in iOS app development over the last 10 years.
00:05:41 ◼ ► Like, there are times where it is somewhat comedic when I point, you know, I'm like, oh, have we talked about this?
00:05:47 ◼ ► Like, I can go and talk about it because that's the nature of having, you know, a show for 10 years with a very relatively narrow topic.
00:05:55 ◼ ► But I think also the world of iOS app development has sort of contracted and has less novelty and newness to it.
00:06:04 ◼ ► And so it's hard sometimes to find, like, meaningful contributions to feel like we're still having.
00:06:11 ◼ ► And then on the other side, like the second rule, I think what's challenging is that because most of the topics that we are most topical and most pressing in many ways to iOS app developers are things like AI and EU regulation and big fights between trillion-dollar companies.
00:06:30 ◼ ► Like, I don't feel good necessarily having public commentary on some of those topics because I don't have expertise in that.
00:06:41 ◼ ► And, like, I don't feel – like, I'm not at all bashful about saying that I'm an expert in iOS app development.
00:06:53 ◼ ► But, you know, you want to talk about the impact of AI or different AI systems or antitrust regulation and compliance and all this stuff.
00:07:04 ◼ ► I mean, I think this year in particular, there's been a lot of challenging topics that I did not look forward to having discussions about, both because I'm not an expert and because I just – I don't like them.
00:07:17 ◼ ► And there were fewer and fewer places where, you know, we were able to just talk about the parts of it that we like and have it feel relevant and meaningful.
00:07:25 ◼ ► And so, like, those two things together were sort of the kernel that got started in my mind where I was like, I feel like it might be time.
00:07:34 ◼ ► And I think in the way we've talked about, like, how do you wind down an app and how do you know when it's time to do that?
00:07:39 ◼ ► I think there was, you know, the classic thing if we talked about it and we let it sit for a while, we let it kind of marinate.
00:07:44 ◼ ► And then, you know, kind of at some point we settled on, you know, 10 years felt like a nice round number.
00:07:50 ◼ ► You know, it's a meaningful contribution, hopefully, to – a lot of people have learned things about app development.
00:07:56 ◼ ► I think – and I know from people I've talked to that many people got into it based on our discussions and have, you know, launched apps and built things as a result.
00:08:12 ◼ ► And, you know, we'll – I'm sure both of us will continue to be online and both of us will continue to have commentary and things that we do it.
00:08:23 ◼ ► Yeah, you know, as Dave mentioned, you know, he was the one who kind of brought this idea to us.
00:08:28 ◼ ► But as soon as he said it, I started thinking, I'm like, yeah, that actually – that feels right.
00:08:36 ◼ ► You know, for many of the reasons that you mentioned, you know, after so long, there were so many weeks, as Dave said, where, like, we would just come to the show and be like, oh, what do you want to talk about?
00:08:50 ◼ ► I could talk about this, but I don't really want to share that right now or I don't want to share that at all.
00:08:54 ◼ ► Or we could talk about this other thing, but we talked about that seven years ago, three years ago, and one year ago.
00:09:25 ◼ ► We're still going to, like, have these Zoom calls every so often and just have, like, basically, like, the secret show.
00:09:32 ◼ ► Which, honestly, was often better because we could talk about things like confidential, you know, numbers and things going on.
00:09:39 ◼ ► Like, we could talk more honestly with each other because we were just two friends talking without the audience.
00:09:52 ◼ ► Like, we launched and we pretty quickly settled into a number of downloads every episode that we basically have kept almost the same for 10 years.
00:10:25 ◼ ► Like, everything has just been consistent and stable and, like, unchanging the entire time.
00:10:32 ◼ ► It will feel kind of weird not to do this show, but it has kind of felt like a struggle to come up with what to talk about for all the reasons that we mentioned.
00:10:41 ◼ ► And so it feels like a good time to end the show before it gets – before it feels like a burden and at this nice round number.
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00:11:44 ◼ ► It's like hiring an engineer who already knows your entire code base, and it can find the correct root cause 94% of the time.
00:11:51 ◼ ► So what it does, it finds that root cause, and then it provides you a merge-ready pull request based on that analysis.
00:12:10 ◼ ► They have a free dev plan, and listeners of the show can use the code RADAR on sign-up for three months free of their team plan and 150,000 free errors.
00:12:33 ◼ ► You and I were talking a bit before we started recording of how I woke up this morning and knowing that this was going to be the day that we record the last episode.
00:12:41 ◼ ► And it was the classic combination of feelings where it wasn't that I was – I wasn't necessarily sad in the sense that it was – I was regretful that we were ending it.
00:12:52 ◼ ► It was more sad that just like, yeah, this thing that has been a meaningful part of my life that essentially every two weeks for the last 10 years, you and I have had a conversation on – that we posted about iOS development.
00:13:06 ◼ ► Like we've launched – like five years ago, WidgetSmith happened and like completely changed my developer life.
00:13:19 ◼ ► And like it's been interesting in some ways through the various changes that have happened that like the show is always just sort of this consistent background thing.
00:13:32 ◼ ► Like I think one of my favorite episodes is that episode you and I recorded right after WidgetSmith like had its sort of crazy viral moment and went crazy.
00:13:47 ◼ ► Like there was – on Under the Radar that summer before, I remember like calling out how sort of like a challenge to the world that I was going to win the widget game.
00:14:10 ◼ ► And I think it is one of the privileges of being – having a platform to talk about these things that you end up with that record.
00:14:19 ◼ ► You end up with these kind of details because I think so often in life it is easy for things to just sort of happen and then fade away and that they don't necessarily have a record in a milestone.
00:14:33 ◼ ► And I love that I can go back and listen to that episode or the first episode like I did this morning when we didn't know what we were doing and have a record of that.
00:14:42 ◼ ► And so I feel very sort of thankful to our audience who has stuck with us for, you know, for 10 years to allow that to be something that made sense because, you know, it isn't one of these situations where we're winding down the show because our audience has collapsed and, you know, no one's listening anymore.
00:14:57 ◼ ► No, it's like the same number of people are listening now as they did before, which is remarkable in its own way.
00:15:02 ◼ ► But it's much more – you know, it's lovely to have that group of people who care about what we have to say, I suppose.
00:15:10 ◼ ► There's things about this show that I will miss and some of it is like completely silly things.
00:15:16 ◼ ► So where like I love – whether or not it's true or not, several WWDC videos I feel like start with, so let's get started.
00:15:30 ◼ ► I don't think this is actually true, but in my mind, every single one of those people is an under-the-radar fan.
00:15:35 ◼ ► And it's like – it's our little like subtle shout-out and like it'll be sad that when that happens, it'll be like, oh, that used to be our thing.
00:15:42 ◼ ► Now it's – you know, now it's not our thing anymore or just little details and being able to run into people who feel like they've – you know, who know us and have benefited from the show and have that be a thing that happens.
00:16:00 ◼ ► But I don't expect it would be the kind of thing that has quite the ongoing pattern to that.
00:16:07 ◼ ► So like it's – it's like that nostalgic kind of bittersweet feeling is sort of where I am on it.
00:16:13 ◼ ► But, yeah, like it feels like it's the right time and I think it'll be interesting to see what that does.
00:16:17 ◼ ► Like I'm – it's like I'm wondering sometimes if there'll be more developer topics on ATP now or things like that where there's things that previously their outlet would be for you and I to talk about them.
00:16:28 ◼ ► And now you're – you know, both of us are going to have to find other outlets when we have, you know, the truly meaningful constructive commentary or opinions or ideas or experiences to share.
00:16:46 ◼ ► You know, when you end something like this, you create a vacuum like in – not only like in the audience potentially.
00:16:55 ◼ ► I mean that gets filled pretty quickly with other stuff but like you create a vacuum in your own life, in your own, you know, creative output, in your public output and in your time.
00:17:03 ◼ ► So even though this show has never taken a lot of time ever, it's always been remarkably fast and easy to make.
00:17:11 ◼ ► But, you know, it still frees up like, oh, as you mentioned, like, oh, maybe I'll talk more on ATP.
00:17:19 ◼ ► Like, you know, there's other outlets that we have that like eventually an idea is – you know, gets lodged in our heads and we have to get it out or we want to talk about it in some form.
00:17:28 ◼ ► Like, you know, like I've had a couple ideas like I wonder if I could maybe do this weird like, you know, YouTube format or something.
00:17:35 ◼ ► Like I have all sorts of weird ideas that I'll probably never get to but one or two of them I might get to.
00:17:40 ◼ ► And you have the same thing and so it is going to be interesting to see kind of where this goes because, you know, and we both have, you know, audiences in different places.
00:17:51 ◼ ► Like, you know, you have obviously the entire, you know, app universe at your disposal plus you have, you know, you've cultivated a blog and everything and I have ATP and my blog.
00:18:09 ◼ ► And, you know, and I think also the world of indie app development, first of all, I don't know how much of that world is left.
00:18:27 ◼ ► It's way – it's both way bigger than that and way – I think way more diverse than that, which is good.
00:18:37 ◼ ► And so there are a lot of indie developers out there but I don't think many of them are like people who used to follow the old Mac blogs and made Mac software back in the day.
00:18:47 ◼ ► Like I think that community has largely dispersed or in many ways retired or, you know, gotten absorbed by other things.
00:19:17 ◼ ► And so there's this whole world out there of developers but it's a very different world now than what we started the show for and kind of the world that we considered ourselves coming from and the world that we know.
00:19:34 ◼ ► I think it's just – it's a much smaller part now of a much bigger thing that like most of that world has never heard of us, will never hear of us, probably wouldn't seek out development-focused podcasts even to begin with.
00:19:46 ◼ ► And maybe it's better off that we kind of like step aside and like let the world move on without us as if it needed our permission.
00:19:58 ◼ ► But like it does feel like we are kind of a relic of a past era and not that we're like leaving this world.
00:20:06 ◼ ► Like we're still in it but it feels like this hasn't been the real mainstream world of iOS app development for a very long time.
00:20:17 ◼ ► It has been for a long time and I don't know how much there is more to say about it from our perspective, like from our version of this world.
00:20:28 ◼ ► Yeah, and I think there's definitely too – I think something you said that really jumped out at me was the sense of just – I think so much in life – and this is beyond just like the show or development or whatever.
00:20:38 ◼ ► But it's like if you don't know what will fill a void until you create the space in the first place.
00:20:46 ◼ ► That like if in life you are too busy all the time and you're running around and your schedule is packed and you're always busy and everything is always going on, you will be operating out of inertia rather than out of intention.
00:21:00 ◼ ► Like it just – that's the nature of my experience of when I feel like that, when I don't have space, when there isn't sort of margin or slack in things that you're just sort of – you do whatever you've been doing before because you don't have the space to create new things.
00:21:15 ◼ ► And I think what's interesting about now is it's like – one of the things I'm excited about is just like you're saying, like it's creating space.
00:21:20 ◼ ► It's creating space for you and I, like not that it was a huge amount of time, but it was certainly something that we were doing and there's only so many somethings that you can have on your mind at once.
00:21:32 ◼ ► Like if we were talking to a particular niche or a particular audience, maybe we're creating space for other things to come in and fill that space.
00:21:41 ◼ ► But the only way that you can discover what's in that space is by creating it in the first place.
00:21:47 ◼ ► And so in some ways, like I'm excited for what would come next for you and I as well as for what – winding this down and creating potentially some more space in this space in this niche.
00:21:58 ◼ ► But it's like I think we did an episode a couple ago about rest and how it's like you never know you need a break until you actually take one.
00:22:05 ◼ ► And I think in some ways it's like I'm just really intrigued to see what happens, not having this particular outlet be the thing that I bottle up a lot of my thinking and opinions and things that I want to share.
00:22:19 ◼ ► Like for a long time, it's always been sort of like save it for the show, bundle it up and put it in there.
00:22:25 ◼ ► And so creating a space where that's not the default, that's not something is like they'll be creative, they'll be interesting.
00:22:32 ◼ ► And I think that is something that is genuinely exciting to me to not know what that is and that not knowingness is the fun part, is the interesting next couple of months, years.
00:22:55 ◼ ► You and I were just like having a phone call, like just chatting and then we're like, hey, what if we did a podcast?
00:23:04 ◼ ► And so like it was not something that we were starting with a ten year – you know, ten years in mind.
00:23:18 ◼ ► It's like we're both doing the same thing but in like completely different ways in very – like just – you know, I – when we launched Under the Radar, I did – in the first episode, I think I mentioned that I launched like 54 apps or something.
00:23:48 ◼ ► You know, like – but it's just – I think that's one of the things and like I just – as a person, like I really have appreciated our conversations, Marco.
00:23:55 ◼ ► Like it's been – it's because we're the same but different in a way that I think is really complementary and that works.
00:24:11 ◼ ► The way in which we define and go about doing that process of making good things and like doing good work is completely different.
00:24:19 ◼ ► And I could not work like – I could not work with you and I don't think you could work with me like in that way of – I think I would drive you crazy with the way that I develop and sort of the chaos and sort of pace of it.
00:24:33 ◼ ► Whereas I would be probably very frustrated by the sort of the intentionality and pace at which you do things.
00:24:42 ◼ ► They get really, really good but they get there by being really methodical and taking a lot of time with things.
00:25:18 ◼ ► But honestly, 10 years ago, I definitely thought it was much more of a likely probability that at some point I was going to have to get a jobby job.
00:25:25 ◼ ► Like work at a big company, you know, working for a bank and making their iOS app or something.
00:25:30 ◼ ► And I just think – sometimes I think about that and I was like, oh, man, I would be the worst – like I know how to make apps.
00:25:40 ◼ ► And so that would have been a whole adventure that I'm very fortunate and glad that I never had to explore, at least not so far anyway.
00:25:52 ◼ ► I just worry that I'd be a little bit ungovernable in a way of like – you know, someone assigns a Jira ticket to me and I'm just like, no, I don't want to work on that.
00:26:32 ◼ ► It's been a great experience doing this show both for me and Dave individually and us together.
00:26:39 ◼ ► And it's been great for our friendship to develop a lot over this time as well, to have all these calls and all these secret after podcasts that were even better.
00:27:01 ◼ ► Yeah, no, and I think, yeah, I think I would just, I mean, I think the best place to end something like this is just with gratitude.
00:27:12 ◼ ► And I think for all of the people who have listened to this, to Mike and Steven and the Carrie at Relay who, you know, hosted and put up with our slightly ungovernable approaches to things.
00:27:23 ◼ ► And just generally, yeah, that it's, it is not an easy thing to have the support of the network of a network and of an audience and of each other.
00:27:33 ◼ ► You know, it is a wonderful thing that I'm very grateful for that, you know, like you and I haven't fallen out over the last 10 years.
00:27:40 ◼ ► Like you could be winding down a show because, you know, you and I get in a fight or something.
00:27:47 ◼ ► We're still doing this because, you know, in some ways, partly why I kept doing the show is because I loved having the excuse to talk to you every two weeks.
00:27:58 ◼ ► And, you know, I'm sure you and I will continue to talk and we will continue to have that.
00:28:01 ◼ ► But there was something reassuring about the consistency of it that I very much appreciated.
00:28:06 ◼ ► And that, you know, it's, it's cool to think of the many things, the opportunities that having under the radar opened up for, for both of us.
00:28:15 ◼ ► Like, I think it's very, it's amazing and wonderful how many, for how many years we did an interview at WWDC.
00:28:23 ◼ ► And I think there are people who we've talked to during those interviews who, as far as I know, were the only kind of show they've ever talked on.
00:28:30 ◼ ► Like it's not, you know, we're not on the PR, the PR junket side of it where we're talking to engineers about engineering.
00:28:38 ◼ ► And I felt very grateful that Apple trusted us with that, that they clearly had listened to the show and they knew what we were about.
00:28:45 ◼ ► And they knew the kind of people we would be and the kind of conversations we would have.
00:28:49 ◼ ► And, you know, that was very gratifying and very encouraging that, you know, that was just nice to have those kind of milestones of support.
00:28:56 ◼ ► And so, yeah, I think at the end we can just end the show with, you know, being, being grateful for that, being grateful for what we've had and, you know, looking forward to what the, what this space will create in our lives, in our audience and who knows.
00:29:08 ◼ ► But, you know, when something winds down, it just, it creates that space for new things to grow and you never know what they are, but that's exciting in its own way.