00:00:00 ◼ ► from relay this is upgrade episode 589 today's show is brought to you by delete me factor and express vpn my name is mike hurley and i'm joined by jason snell hi jason snell i'm mike hurley we did not test this beforehand but we should try it right now let's do it high five yeah because we are in london baby well i always am and so is jason snell i'm here
00:00:30 ◼ ► surprise yeah surprise i have a snow talk question for you from darren who wants to know jason what do you enjoy most about life in the uk well i've only been here for like five days so you're living here now that's the surprise surprise oh no well if they shut down my flights then maybe i'll just have to stay here surprise uh i don't know i don't know i would say this time being in london i'm reminded of how nice it is to have functional
00:01:00 ◼ ► albeit occasionally delayed public transport to get me from place to place i've been zipping all around just you know taking trains here and there it's really nice to be able to do that uh a lot of free museums that's also pretty nice the basic i think they're all free yeah see not bad we don't have that yeah you just walk we went to a museum yesterday we just strolled on in no problem no so that's what you like museums and travel uh or i mean transit yeah yeah i don't know what else
00:01:29 ◼ ► what should i what should i me what else well sure yes the thing i enjoy most about life in the uk i'm here is the existence of michael harley yeah so thank you darren for that question i guess we'll talk about it right now you you're you've been here for a week now basically yeah this is my last day i'm going back tomorrow so this is just a little trip a little trip for fun little trip for fun um i used to trip i used to travel a lot for work yeah back in the idg days i stands for international we went all over
00:01:59 ◼ ► yeah um i have this theoretical ability to work from anywhere anywhere at any time and unlimited essentially vacation time slash work from anywhere travel around of course my wife has a job in a library and limited vacation time that because of a recent you know she changed jobs a couple years ago is a very limited it's only getting less limited now and we always say oh well you could go here you go there and and and um i just never do it so i
00:02:29 ◼ ► i decided i've done this a couple of times like to boston and stuff that i would just come to london i wanted to come back i wanted to see your baby
00:02:36 ◼ ► yep um mission accomplished let me tell you right now uncle jason very popular i'm a baby whisperer very popular with little sophia yeah
00:02:44 ◼ ► like she had a great time we bonded we had a good time and i did some work in your office which was also i mean
00:02:51 ◼ ► where we are right now proving the i can work from anywhere yeah i worked from your office so i have been
00:02:58 ◼ ► in mega studio by the way this is a great episode to watch the video of right like i hope so this is a yes
00:03:05 ◼ ► provided there is one because we have a multi-camera setup going on this is our second multi-camera
00:03:11 ◼ ► final cut camera attempt yeah after memphis this one worked way easier it also helped that we're in
00:03:17 ◼ ► a place that has tripods many tripods yes and we didn't have to rearrange an entire hotel's worth
00:03:22 ◼ ► furniture although i did move a cut a bunch of stuff yeah curtain around your office but that wasn't too
00:03:27 ◼ ► bad so we got all that going on but i think this is a good one to watch because we're together
00:03:31 ◼ ► we've got a fun multi-camera setup that i think you're editing i assume you're editing yeah yes you're
00:03:36 ◼ ► going to be on some phone calls later this afternoon and i'm just going to be sitting on the couch editing
00:03:40 ◼ ► with my fingers and final cut pro on ipad and that's how yeah i turn those off because i don't want to hear
00:03:46 ◼ ► the boop boop boops every time i touch the screen it's a really weird feature of final cut camera
00:03:50 ◼ ► it makes that noise star trek noises yep so this is a good one for video uh because yeah you but
00:03:56 ◼ ► the we're in mega studios in my office i have been here for five years now i i took the lease on this
00:04:06 ◼ ► in february 2020 yeah the first time i have had a co-worker in this studio working for an extended period
00:04:12 ◼ ► of time yeah i've had underscore come this underscore is a fixture of the upgrade uh live from after the
00:04:20 ◼ ► iphone event because he's just over in the corner downloading xcode or whatever right so i've had
00:04:25 ◼ ► him here he came by he came by i was here obviously but but for for me this is like i i was here wednesday
00:04:31 ◼ ► afternoon yep all day thursday yep all day friday yep all day today yep we have been co-working co-workers
00:04:37 ◼ ► yeah co-working i've i've found two things about this experience so far right one love it love having
00:04:44 ◼ ► you here we can sit and gab it's wonderful i i work in my garage surrounded by cats and a dog
00:04:50 ◼ ► yes it's kind of interesting to be around human beings point to the gabbing yeah that's a problem
00:04:55 ◼ ► i have not got as much work done as i would normally get done when i'm on my own in silence well the good
00:05:00 ◼ ► news is i'm not going to stay here any longer this is it i would actually prefer if you did i would i
00:05:05 ◼ ► would do less things if you this desk is always available thank you you can take you and i guess i have
00:05:11 ◼ ► to thank cortex brand for supplying us with the table for for a man who only works in this office
00:05:17 ◼ ► by himself there are a lot of desks i bang the table which probably wasn't good for the audio but i'm on
00:05:22 ◼ ► it we're on a table right now it's the it's the verity this is where people say that the video ruins
00:05:27 ◼ ► the audio yeah that was a scenario right if we you weren't here if we're making video i wouldn't hit
00:05:31 ◼ ► that you prove the table but i'm on this desk right yeah we're the desk that we're sat up on today
00:05:37 ◼ ► this is where i do my product design work for and it is usually covered in stuff all that stuff we
00:05:42 ◼ ► moved that somewhere else over there because there's some secret things in that desk we don't need
00:05:45 ◼ ► everyone to see it nope we're also both wearing merchandise very good very good merchandise that
00:05:51 ◼ ► is available for people to buy way jason upgrade your wardrobe.com you can get uh for those who are
00:05:57 ◼ ► not watching the rumor roundup shirt is always available and currently available and available right
00:06:03 ◼ ► now the colors are shirt which i am wearing a purple colors are t-shirt right now with the upgrade
00:06:09 ◼ ► logo in with a little arrow in the color of the shirt which is kind of nice it's a nice little bit
00:06:14 ◼ ► also the the pro shirt is available there's a version of the shirt with the upgrade name on it
00:06:20 ◼ ► there is the upgrade hoodie which comes in a bunch of different versions now there's a quarter zip
00:06:25 ◼ ► there is the there is the classic hoodie i've got mine right behind me too um so that's all out there
00:06:32 ◼ ► and then of course my favorite the will they buy enough of them to let us print it uh airpod max
00:06:40 ◼ ► believe the answer is yes yes have we already done that we've sold more of the airpods max believe
00:06:44 ◼ ► shirt than the upgrade pro t-shirt wow yeah wow have we that means we may have also sold more um
00:06:56 ◼ ► well chef's kiss they they have sold that shirt for many yeah they've done it in in their defense and
00:07:02 ◼ ► it's diminishing over time this is the first time anyway upgrade your wardrobe.com if you would like
00:07:06 ◼ ► to buy a shirt or a hoodie and there are a bunch of varieties which is kind of nice uh if you click
00:07:13 ◼ ► through the different uh product versions so like there's t-shirts and tank tops and long sleeve t-shirts
00:07:19 ◼ ► and hoodies and quarter zips and the whole like there's just a lot there and this is uh for another
00:07:25 ◼ ► couple weeks so uh hurry through because uh a week we're recording this on a monday uh next monday
00:07:31 ◼ ► we'll talk about it again um but then that wednesday so the end is the end in nine days from as we record
00:07:37 ◼ ► this now so this would be a good time to buy yeah if you're going to yes link in the show notes but
00:07:42 ◼ ► you can also go to upgrade your wardrobe.com uh we have some follow-up so we have obviously our
00:07:48 ◼ ► listeners always writing and i've got a few great uh pieces of follow-up from our listeners this week
00:07:51 ◼ ► and an anonymous question uh writer follow-up giver wrote and said regarding apple iphone demand so we
00:07:58 ◼ ► iphone air demand we're talking about you know how much do people actually want that phone the black
00:08:03 ◼ ► iphone air 256 gigabyte model is literally the only corporate phone that the multinational company i work
00:08:09 ◼ ► for will let us order i now this will not amount to any no significant difference i included this
00:08:16 ◼ ► because i just think that is i don't know the decision making that led this company to get to
00:08:23 ◼ ► that phone maybe apple really wanted to sell iphone airs and give them a deal i mean maybe right but that
00:08:29 ◼ ► is a fascinating model all the all the trends that we've seen so far suggest that the iphone air is the
00:08:35 ◼ ► is the least selling of these which is not super surprising and it's a fairly small amount we don't
00:08:41 ◼ ► know i have my theory that it's going to be a little bit of a grower over time my guess is it's still not
00:08:45 ◼ ► going to be a an enormous hit but it doesn't need to be because it's part of this larger group of phones
00:08:51 ◼ ► that actually seem to be doing very well yeah i just yeah that anonymous question answer if if that
00:08:57 ◼ ► is the same in your organization please let us know yeah go to upgrade feedback.com and let us know
00:09:03 ◼ ► very nice uh we also had another anonymous person i don't know if they're the same person couldn't
00:09:07 ◼ ► tell did you know i just it proves the system works this is a fact we don't actually know that i didn't
00:09:13 ◼ ► know yeah well sometimes people say anonymous and leave their email address and i i'm not sure what
00:09:19 ◼ ► sometimes because we need to ask them are you sure you want to share this sometimes people's email
00:09:24 ◼ ► addresses are their names are literally their names so that is a well i think anonymous in that in the
00:09:30 ◼ ► case of upgrade feedback.com yeah is please don't use my name yeah but when they leave the email address
00:09:36 ◼ ► i assume that means they're okay with us knowing who they are and maybe even contacting them if we have
00:09:39 ◼ ► to ask a follow-up question yeah that's not the same as true anonymity where you which which is
00:09:47 ◼ ► usually used by people who want to say mean things that's true and then they hide who they are entirely
00:09:51 ◼ ► um an anonymous person wrote in and said y'all said uh did you know that the iphone 17 actually costs
00:09:59 ◼ ► 829 not 799 carriers appear to discount the phone by 30 to customers who purchase through apple's retail
00:10:07 ◼ ► store in the us if you purchase the phone without a carrier you pay 829 okay uh i would not call this
00:10:15 ◼ ► accurate i mean the facts are true but what i would say is it's 829 if you refuse to have say or you don't
00:10:25 ◼ ► have a carrier yeah there are some reasons for that and it does involve i think a character connection
00:10:32 ◼ ► to apple a carrier connection to apple but it's also um it may also be kind of like a like a gray market
00:10:39 ◼ ► alert like if you don't have it connected to an account what are you doing with that phone um all
00:10:44 ◼ ► i'll say is it is 799 because saying that you have a carrier does not mean you agree to any terms with the
00:10:53 ◼ ► carrier all i i am not on a plan with at&t at&t doesn't get any more money from me all i'm doing
00:11:01 ◼ ► is saying yes i do have at&t and then they do the all it does is is prime at&t to um to move my phone
00:11:10 ◼ ► and my e-sim over and all that so it is true if you want to buy an iphone and you literally don't
00:11:15 ◼ ► have a carrier which is true for you right or yes yeah so but it's not the case in the uk the price
00:11:22 ◼ ► is always the same but when you when you bought when steven bought your phone for you oh in the u.s
00:11:27 ◼ ► does he put down his carrier well i bought it this time oh you bought it and did you say no carrier
00:11:31 ◼ ► and you paid the extra 30 dollars correct yeah well that's right that's because you're a black
00:11:35 ◼ ► marketeer that's me you're a smuggler yeah i'm a smuggler always smuggling every day i'm smuggling
00:11:39 ◼ ► the lesson of the business it's the smuggler's blues ben wrote in and said mike i agree that we need
00:11:44 ◼ ► alternate workouts on the apple watch with stroller being an excellent example i recently had an
00:11:49 ◼ ► experience while working with a team on a construction project in guatemala at over 5 000 feet elevation we
00:11:55 ◼ ► were carrying 90 pound bags of mortar up two flights of stairs by hand around four bags in my watch asked
00:12:01 ◼ ► me if i was out for a walk once we caught our breath we had a good laugh or apple must think of my fitness
00:12:05 ◼ ► level if they thought that was a walk i just thought this is funny yeah and obviously they're not going to
00:12:10 ◼ ► have are you carrying big bags of sand bags of mortar yeah but it is funny right that like sometimes it's
00:12:16 ◼ ► like oh what are you doing this goes to your point which is at some point it should see your heart rate
00:12:22 ◼ ► and stuff and your and your movement and and say oh yeah something's happening here yeah let's let's
00:12:28 ◼ ► log this and i guess it does log it but it doesn't count as a workout i don't know because that's the
00:12:33 ◼ ► other thing is sometimes you get really focused on i got to put this in as a workout but like
00:12:36 ◼ ► if you don't put it in as a workout but you're also exercising you get the credit it's a little
00:12:42 ◼ ► different but you basically get the credit i've done that where i've i've been doing something
00:12:45 ◼ ► ridiculous and then i look at my rings and they've they know even though i never said a workout they
00:12:50 ◼ ► know what was going on you wrote a little uh blog post about your holiday lights which is the thing
00:13:02 ◼ ► hear upgrade plus episode 535 a full year ago who couldn't who could forget that gem a listener
00:13:09 ◼ ► sent me a note on social media and said hey where was that story about your holiday lights because i'm
00:13:14 ◼ ► looking it up and i looked at six colors and i thought oh did i never write about that and the answer is
00:13:22 ◼ ► yes i told that whole story on upgrade plus and and then failed at the key in my career cycle of content
00:13:31 ◼ ► which is you write it you talk about it you talk about it you write about it you get you get kind
00:13:37 ◼ ► of everything you can out of it that's the idea so shame on me i didn't do that um so i wrote a blog
00:13:45 ◼ ► post that's up on six colors now that everybody can read because we're not in upgrade plus right now if
00:13:49 ◼ ► you didn't hear about my permanent holiday lights that i installed last year i wrote about it this year
00:13:55 ◼ ► and that's on the site and then i just have a little side story here yes which is in order to write this
00:14:01 ◼ ► a year later one of the things i did is i went and found our conversation from upgrade five thirty plus
00:14:06 ◼ ► five thirty five made a transcript of it yep fed the transcript of that segment into claude and said
00:14:14 ◼ ► write a blog post in the style of six colors um based on this podcast transcript yep and what i got
00:14:23 ◼ ► back was a perfectly serviceable article that was mostly accurate describing what i described in there
00:14:30 ◼ ► based on my own words in a voice and a tone that i would never have written the article in yeah there
00:14:38 ◼ ► was some non-jason isms but as we noted part of the problem was this was the both of us having a
00:14:46 ◼ ► conversation it was it was mostly me telling a story but still i'm in there polluting it you were in
00:14:50 ◼ ► there you should you would have had to get a co-byline it would have been by me and you and claude
00:14:54 ◼ ► our friend claude good old claude good old claude they them it it's it's claude it's let's not
00:15:01 ◼ ► person personify it at all it it is our good friend claude it is claude i think it is our friend
00:15:06 ◼ ► it would be a personalized it would be a personification right would be what a personification
00:15:10 ◼ ► it yeah well no it is okay i i think i think it is what you go for for an ai because it's not a
00:15:16 ◼ ► it's not a living being it's an it i think even claude though giving it i wouldn't give it a i wouldn't
00:15:20 ◼ ► give it any published the claude version i did not publish the claude version i i sent it to some
00:15:24 ◼ ► people and said this happened yeah uh what i find disturbing about it in a good way i guess is if
00:15:31 ◼ ► someone who wasn't me wrote that article for me i would have given it an edit and posted it yeah
00:15:38 ◼ ► because it was good and what i one of the reasons i did it is we're often put in this situation where i
00:15:44 ◼ ► i've talked about something in depth on a podcast but haven't written about it yet and sometimes i think
00:15:49 ◼ ► didn't i just do this work didn't i just talk this whole thing through couldn't that be the article
00:15:54 ◼ ► the answer is people don't talk like they write absolutely no but running the complete transcript
00:15:59 ◼ ► through the llm it was pretty good and i'm wondering if there's some other technique that i could use
00:16:07 ◼ ► to get raw material like organize this in with you know in a way that it would lead to my writing
00:16:14 ◼ ► a post without asking it because because seriously i looked at the blog post and then i literally just
00:16:19 ◼ ► rewrote it i think i used a sentence from it yeah and i used one reference that it made although i
00:16:26 ◼ ► turned it into a joke which it wasn't in the original so it was one of those things where like i was very
00:16:31 ◼ ► impressed by it but also for a blog post under my name i was like nope and i wrote my own thing instead
00:16:38 ◼ ► well but it was very impressive i mean it's a good story you don't want to be like oh no yeah right no i
00:16:45 ◼ ► mean it was good in that way that it wasn't like oh no this is exactly but but the truth is if i didn't
00:16:50 ◼ ► take the pride in ownership i could have tweaked it a little bit and posted it in my name and it would
00:16:54 ◼ ► have been fine yeah um but what i like about it is it was based on my words right so it wasn't like it
00:17:01 ◼ ► was inventing something it was taking a whole story i told in podcast form and turning it into the blog
00:17:10 ◼ ► version of that story and so you know interesting data point but at the end of the day i wrote the
00:17:15 ◼ ► article myself instead uh you included a link um in our notes to an article by ken siegel and it's
00:17:23 ◼ ► regarding ads in this is in relation to the ads in apple maps yeah the story story that apple is
00:17:30 ◼ ► considering adding uh ads to apple maps i just put this in we'll put in the show notes ken siegel is a
00:17:35 ◼ ► veteran ad man is probably how he's described worked on about a lot of uh uh campaigns for apple in the
00:17:44 ◼ ► early-ish days um and has a blog and wrote a piece about this with the headline apple is crossing a steve
00:17:54 ◼ ► jobs red line by doing this advertising um i didn't take away the same thing from his story that
00:18:04 ◼ ► he and some other people did yeah um the story he told is there was a relatively early version of mac os 10
00:18:12 ◼ ► back when they used to charge for updates yeah and there was a debate within apple about whether they were
00:18:17 ◼ ► going to just charge for the update or if they're going to charge for the update and then also do a free version
00:18:22 ◼ ► with ads and and then it was like what are the ads going to be in mac os is it when it was like a nike
00:18:29 ◼ ► commercial place when you start up or is it uh you know you right click and there's a you know something
00:18:35 ◼ ► brought to you by somebody or who knows what it is and and the story that he tells is that there was a
00:18:42 ◼ ► whole conversation about this and then a couple days later steve jobs called and said yeah we're not
00:18:47 ◼ ► going to do that that's going to junk up the experience i don't want that i don't want anybody to have
00:18:50 ◼ ► that user experience and so there's a very clear easy narrative here which is aha see steve jobs
00:18:56 ◼ ► wouldn't have done it um i'll just point out like they didn't have the meeting and in the middle of the
00:19:01 ◼ ► meeting he was like no no no i don't want to hear about it anymore that's a terrible idea no
00:19:05 ◼ ► it apparently was like he went away and thought about it for a while and then he said no we're not
00:19:10 ◼ ► going to do it that's not quite the same and i would also say a pop-up ad like they do with windows
00:19:15 ◼ ► like a pop-up ad in mac os is not quite the same as a sponsored restaurant in apple maps absolutely not the same
00:19:36 ◼ ► or just use something else yes or if you're gonna ai generate something i don't know do
00:19:40 ◼ ► don't don't generate an image of a dead man to like prove your point yeah like there's no need to
00:19:46 ◼ ► which which i would say is a debatable point that isn't exactly proven yeah and i think you're right
00:19:51 ◼ ► this is they're both advertising they're both in mac operating systems they're absolutely not the same
00:19:57 ◼ ► thing like they're absolutely not the same thing yeah like it's like what zoe's saying that it's good
00:20:01 ◼ ► it's like a mac with special offers yeah that's what we're talking about yeah and that is completely
00:20:07 ◼ ► different to even on the kindle getting sponsored books in a search right right that is that in the
00:20:16 ◼ ► kindle is incredibly different to having a display ad on your the home screen of your kindle yeah this
00:20:21 ◼ ► feels like a a relatively weak way to try and do a gotcha yeah about steve jobs would never yeah and i
00:20:30 ◼ ► think i think the truth is just a little little very slight hot take i think there's lots of steve
00:20:36 ◼ ► jobs would never is that steve jobs would totally steve jobs just didn't have the opportunity yeah
00:20:40 ◼ ► because these are things that came after yeah to say would never i just see jobs like money yeah
00:20:46 ◼ ► yes he liked money yeah he liked user experience too and i'm sure there are things that apple does
00:20:51 ◼ ► that steve jobs would never yeah i also think there are a lot of things people say steve jobs would
00:20:54 ◼ ► never that steve jobs would totally do absolutely uh we mentioned this last week when we're
00:20:59 ◼ ► talking about the apple results that you were going to put together a set of charts for apple's
00:21:03 ◼ ► fiscal 2025 and i did because you can compare it to previous years and like that's essentially it's
00:21:09 ◼ ► not a chart of the year it's a chart of the year compared to other years other years yeah i'm rolling
00:21:13 ◼ ► all the quarters together into these annuals fiscal annuals and there are a few things that jump out
00:21:17 ◼ ► at me um from looking at this so you know overall revenue um is back to growing it kind of
00:21:23 ◼ ► installed for a little bit after the pandemic because revenue went insane during the pandemic
00:21:28 ◼ ► right you know you can look at the charts and see that yeah um and it's it's this is now the we spoke
00:21:35 ◼ ► about this a bunch before this is almost like the iphone 6 kind of scenario right where like
00:21:39 ◼ ► lots of sales happened all at once for a specific reason not because that's how it's always going to
00:21:47 ◼ ► be but then the iphone went back to growth again and this is where apple is as a company you can see it
00:21:52 ◼ ► right they shot up things went down a little bit and now they're higher than the peak of the biggest
00:21:57 ◼ ► biggest peak they're higher than that now so you can see that their revenue is back on the
00:22:02 ◼ ► up push trajectory that it's been on um and the iphone is also doing that which is clearly the
00:22:09 ◼ ► alignment but you can you can overlap the the chart and it's the same chart yeah i mean the growth of
00:22:14 ◼ ► apple is pretty much the growth of the iphone augmented by services but really it's as the iphone grows
00:22:23 ◼ ► and you see that services number and it's it's not gonna catch it but it is catching like the the shape
00:22:32 ◼ ► of that graph is different and and it is one that is just getting steeper and steeper yeah when i started
00:22:39 ◼ ► doing this chart the point of of the the the combined chart was to show how far above the iphone
00:22:44 ◼ ► or how far above everything else the iphone was and then what's happened the last few years is now
00:22:51 ◼ ► it's sort of like also look at the rise of services which is separating from all the place because you
00:22:56 ◼ ► know 10 years ago it was kind of hanging around with the rest of them down there and it's not now it's in
00:23:01 ◼ ► its own zone in between the rest of them and the iphone yeah but it also gets across that idea that
00:23:07 ◼ ► the iphone is just when we individually chart them they look like they're the same and they are not
00:23:11 ◼ ► and but again it's like you can actually make the exact if you took iphone out of that chart so it
00:23:16 ◼ ► would also be an interesting chart of like oh you think services is around where the rest of the
00:23:20 ◼ ► products are and oh buddy it ain't it's like three times the size yeah so like it's you know very
00:23:25 ◼ ► serious and also wearables that is the only one in in decline it's in active decline which is
00:23:32 ◼ ► fascinating yep yeah what is going on there i don't know like you'd think the airpods would continue
00:23:40 ◼ ► to be a great success for them but it doesn't seem to be what's going on well we'll see how the the
00:23:45 ◼ ► new airpods do that's a good point we have new airpods that might tick it up a little bit maybe
00:23:50 ◼ ► i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know if airpods pro or the driver maybe yeah i mean i
00:23:57 ◼ ► think the airpods are there and the apple watch and they keep selling more apple watches but maybe
00:24:01 ◼ ► the apple watches are i don't know what's going on with the wearables category it's really interesting
00:24:05 ◼ ► they seem to have yeah come down off of their high this episode is brought to you by our friends
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00:25:47 ◼ ► their support of this show and relay so today i think actually today which is the 10th of november
00:25:55 ◼ ► 2025 is five years from the introduction of apple silicon that's right big day that's right five years
00:26:03 ◼ ► to the day remember that five years ago in the let me take you back to 2020 no i don't want to go back
00:26:08 ◼ ► i don't want to go back there but we can we can talk about it so this was the introduction this
00:26:15 ◼ ► wasn't the first time we found out about it this wasn't the naming right that was the wwdc i think
00:26:19 ◼ ► before yeah where we went from apple our macs as we called them to apple silicon they did the
00:26:26 ◼ ► developer transition kit which had an ipad chip in it right a12z yep in a little mac mini some say zed
00:26:33 ◼ ► some say zed i wouldn't um then they announced the first consumer products they were uh announced
00:26:40 ◼ ► and available i think in november yeah that included an m1 version of the exist of three existing products
00:26:47 ◼ ► right macbook air the 13 inch macbook pro base model i think and the mac mini and the mac mini so they
00:26:54 ◼ ► were the only it wasn't the touch bar 13 inch i don't know if that was still for sale at that time
00:26:59 ◼ ► but it was the kind of standard 13 inch with the function row yeah i think so i think they hadn't
00:27:04 ◼ ► put the touch bar on it yet yeah is that right i don't know something like that yeah it's the low
00:27:08 ◼ ► end one the one that was that is less of an oddity now than it was back then yeah it really was such
00:27:13 ◼ ► an outlier that they would just update it like that so and so they all went on sale same designs it was
00:27:19 ◼ ► announced a 45 minute pre-recorded video this was notable because um it was the third video event
00:27:29 ◼ ► in three months yep oh boy that was a really busy fall right for those of us who who watch this stuff
00:27:38 ◼ ► and cover this stuff they're like there there was september event october event and november event
00:27:43 ◼ ► um so it was a very busy fall as they were rolling that stuff out and figuring out how they're going
00:27:48 ◼ ► to roll out products without a live event because apparently according to the discord it did have the
00:27:53 ◼ ► touch bar on it okay that's right so it was the low-end touch bar yep model then i dropped it the year
00:28:00 ◼ ► later apparently so uh yeah this it was this was the one where the iphone came late right the iphone
00:28:06 ◼ ► came in october right so i've had an apple watch i remember us being very surprised there was no iphone we
00:28:12 ◼ ► didn't know that going into the event right then the although we were expecting possibly an iphone to
00:28:18 ◼ ► be i think the rumor at the time was the iphone is coming in october like that was but we just figured
00:28:25 ◼ ► they would announce it and say it will be on sale in a month and they did not that they did not they
00:28:29 ◼ ► did another event in october right then another event in november right because i just recently did
00:28:34 ◼ ► as you saw because you were looking over my shoulder at a number spreadsheet yeah and i had a uh a tab
00:28:39 ◼ ► that looked weird yeah weird tab weirdly named tab and i explained that i was trying to suss out from
00:28:45 ◼ ► that if there was any signal to be found in changes in iphone sales in the fourth fiscal quarter yeah
00:28:52 ◼ ► because it's such a short time and actually what i realized is it's almost always eight days
00:28:58 ◼ ► um the eight days in the quarter where they're selling new iphones but sometimes it's one day
00:29:04 ◼ ► yeah and then in 2020 no days it was no days it was negative days because they didn't even announce
00:29:10 ◼ ► it wasn't it wasn't available yet um quote from your article about the m1 everything was fast much
00:29:16 ◼ ► faster than intel so much faster that even software compiled for intel running in a code transition layer
00:29:21 ◼ ► via rosetta branch is fine it's fine rosetta 2 is essentially an unnoticeable thing yeah like people that went
00:29:27 ◼ ► through the the original transition the intel transition from power pc rosetta was a thing
00:29:33 ◼ ► where your software would work and you were happy that it worked i remember that like i remember using
00:29:37 ◼ ► word and rosetta and it was a little slower but it worked it did it rosetta 2 you didn't know you didn't
00:29:43 ◼ ► notice because it the performance gains was so incredible and one of the biggest things was the
00:29:49 ◼ ► battery life the battery life on those laptops was just unfathomable yeah yeah performance and battery life
00:29:57 ◼ ► all at once you know in a jump that would normally feel like it was you know three four or five chip
00:30:02 ◼ ► generations and it happened in one generation yep and then we had our first thing it was the next year
00:30:07 ◼ ► 2021 it's the first new designs that was the 14 and 16 inch macbook pro right and the imac they got the
00:30:12 ◼ ► m1 and the imac got the m1 that got the m1 the others got the m1 pro and m1 max yeah and then they
00:30:18 ◼ ► introduced the max studio then they introduced the max studio is that 2021 i think so wow m1 max and pro
00:30:25 ◼ ► i guess that was later in the year right yeah i don't i don't know if i can pass a quiz on
00:30:30 ◼ ► m1 release oh no no no it's the quizzies uh a quote from another quote from your article
00:30:36 ◼ ► a lot of us keen observers this is on macwell by the way i've been linking the show right a lot of us
00:30:41 ◼ ► keen observers of apple figured the company's chip rollouts would follow the same pattern but it hasn't
00:30:46 ◼ ► been so simple and this we speak about this often right if like we all just assumed there would be a
00:30:52 ◼ ► reliable pattern of some description whether they do a new chip every year or a new chip every 18 months
00:30:57 ◼ ► or whatever because the whole thing that we spoke about as pundits beforehand was apple must get off
00:31:03 ◼ ► intel so they can control their own process and they're not going to be held back by intel's delays
00:31:10 ◼ ► that was what we were always talking about and i think the last five years even the last 12 months
00:31:16 ◼ ► has shown that the chips come when they're ready and they're not ready every year and they're not
00:31:21 ◼ ► all ready every year and they're going to go into what they think they need to go into right and apple
00:31:25 ◼ ► has more say in it now because it's their chips and all of that and they know when they're coming
00:31:30 ◼ ► and they're being built to their specifications all that is true but it's not what we thought was going
00:31:34 ◼ ► you know the pattern of the m1 was not repeated with the 2 3 4 and 5 and in fact you know every
00:31:40 ◼ ► one of them has been a little bit different and it's not about what's realistic it's just about
00:31:45 ◼ ► what we expected right and it was our expectation of like well well apple does every year produce an
00:31:50 ◼ ► iphone chip right we don't have years where they're like this iphone we just didn't we just kept the
00:31:57 ◼ ► same one or like this iphone i guess this sometimes happens we have the previous one but it's more
00:32:02 ◼ ► powerful but like every year there is an increment this phone has this every year they're turning
00:32:08 ◼ ► that around but it's not necessarily the same with the mac i mean i guess every calendar year
00:32:13 ◼ ► a chip right is new but they're not doing the and i actually wouldn't want them to either right like
00:32:21 ◼ ► i wouldn't want every single mac to receive a new chip every single year it's just too much i think
00:32:31 ◼ ► and i don't think it is a product line that can make that work financially like if you're if you're
00:32:38 ◼ ► revising the imac the mac studio the mac mini well it's a lot of the laptops it's like it's just not
00:32:45 ◼ ► and also the gains year over year and a nice but not necessary you know they in all the machines it what we
00:32:54 ◼ ► have learned in in four and a half cycles of apple silicon is that apple varies it based on
00:33:02 ◼ ► their needs and if they feel there's a good reason so like they've got some systems that only get updated
00:33:08 ◼ ► every other year except if they feel there's a good reason or they've got the moment to do it and then
00:33:13 ◼ ► they might do it again so even there you're like oh the desktops will be every other year except when
00:33:17 ◼ ► they're not yeah okay i guess yep sometimes that happens it's sort of however it suits them
00:33:22 ◼ ► the result of all of this though every generation has its quirks apple has managed to not drop the ball
00:33:29 ◼ ► after the gigantic leap from intel to m1 it has been an unrivaled success i would say the thing so that
00:33:42 ◼ ► that huge leap happened and then the question was what were they going to do after that and what they've done is
00:33:46 ◼ ► iterate yeah right and i i you know i did a chart like that and i posted a version of it earlier too but it's the
00:33:53 ◼ ► idea of like the the change between generations and it's like most mostly not every time it's like oh look the cpu
00:34:00 ◼ ► went 12 faster and the gpu is 18 faster or whatever it is but the net result of that is that the m5 chip is twice as
00:34:08 ◼ ► fast as the m1 yeah so they are continuing to get really good incremental uh change and what i would
00:34:18 ◼ ► say the other thing that we've learned that i think is interesting is they're managing this by upgrading
00:34:23 ◼ ► parts of the chip year to year and having a different emphasis so like they added the ai acceleration
00:34:31 ◼ ► to cpus in m4 yeah and to gpus in m5 some years they'll be like oh the the performance core is better
00:34:39 ◼ ► or the efficiency core is better or the gpu is better or the neural engine is better but i don't
00:34:43 ◼ ► think they've ever done it where they've said every single component is new because i don't think they've
00:34:48 ◼ ► got the bandwidth for that so i think and it's just not necessary and it's not necessary so they they
00:34:53 ◼ ► they they keep on moving and keep on updating all the parts but um it's not all at once it adds new
00:35:02 ◼ ► characteristics to the overall episodic and picture right and and you mentioned it you just mentioned
00:35:06 ◼ ► now but you mentioned in more detail in your article that like they assumed all of machine learning would
00:35:12 ◼ ► be handled by the neural processor that they made yeah but it turns out that the demands of machine
00:35:17 ◼ ► learning changed yeah so many people write on gpus yeah they're like oh geez we got to we got to do
00:35:22 ◼ ► that too they so the neural processor continues and it handles tasks that apple needs and yeah but some
00:35:27 ◼ ► some some needs much more power cpu or gpu so they adapted the gpu for that where like and i also
00:35:34 ◼ ► think i mean look it is clear that that team that i believe is led by johnny seruji yeah still yeah
00:35:40 ◼ ► is an absolute powerhouse inside of apple like they are producing at a level that is potentially
00:35:49 ◼ ► unparalleled inside of the company like they seem to be able to adapt quickly and they are producing work
00:35:56 ◼ ► that is the envy of the industry yeah and every time it seems to me at least that people count them out
00:36:04 ◼ ► they prove them wrong right but they're like oh you can't make the gpu work like this it's not going to
00:36:10 ◼ ► work like this oh it does all those worries we had you you can't make sorted ram work that's not
00:36:14 ◼ ► going to be good for the user it turns out it is because you won't be able to get enough ram in a
00:36:18 ◼ ► pro system that was a big one i was like how are you going to get the gpus in the ram in a pro system
00:36:22 ◼ ► they did it it's fine it's like they just they just sewed two of them together but it doesn't
00:36:27 ◼ ► matter because that they built their chip so that can work right right they're doing it i'm glad you
00:36:32 ◼ ► like that article i wrote it over there oh is that what you did i wrote i wrote that article right
00:36:37 ◼ ► while we were co-working yeah the original mac m1 macbook air though that that machine from five
00:36:42 ◼ ► years which i would say that is the the the hero machine of the m1 yes the macbook air for sure
00:36:47 ◼ ► that was the one that probably i mean definitely sold the most because always always that product you
00:36:53 ◼ ► can still buy today in the year of upgrade 2025 yes you can do that yes and they're still making it
00:37:00 ◼ ► roll on into walmart you could just go buy it on walmart.com yep yep yep mark german confirms the
00:37:06 ◼ ► low-cost macbook rumors and says it will come out in the first half of next year so this is something
00:37:10 ◼ ► we've been talking about a bunch yeah uh ming chi quo had it uh for years yeah but like i think in the
00:37:16 ◼ ► last few months it's really started to pick up in june because they're being made ming chi quo talked
00:37:21 ◼ ► about it digitimes broke a story about this in 2000 uh 2023 yeah so two years ago a little more than two
00:37:28 ◼ ► years ago and then quo was like yeah this is happening either second half of this year or first
00:37:33 ◼ ► half next year and then now mark german has said it is happening here's the code name because he loves
00:37:40 ◼ ► a code name and it's going to happen first half of next year um under well under a thousand dollars
00:37:45 ◼ ► using less advanced components relying on an iphone processor a lower end lcd display the screen will
00:37:51 ◼ ► be the smallest of any current mac coming in at slightly below the 13.61 used in the macbook air i would
00:37:56 ◼ ► say well the m1 air that's still for sale is a 13.3 so it feels this feels very much to me
00:38:02 ◼ ► like it's the m1 air with a different processor in it but we'll see what else they might do
00:38:08 ◼ ► but maybe a different design hopefully a different design i mean some of the original rumors around
00:38:19 ◼ ► of it being a different design because if it's a different design it increases the the cost to make
00:38:26 ◼ ► it which means the margins are reduced in a product that you want to have the biggest margins on i feel
00:38:32 ◼ ► like tim cook is the kind of guy who says can't we just reuse the case of the macbook air m1 and
00:38:38 ◼ ► they'll be like because the macbook air doesn't look like that anymore it's shaped differently now
00:38:42 ◼ ► and has been for years and maybe they just anodize that aluminum to be in fun colors and they keep
00:38:47 ◼ ► going back in uh beginning of july after this story broke the last time i i looked at the performance
00:38:54 ◼ ► characteristics of the a18 pro which was in last year's iphone pro versus the m1 that's in that
00:38:59 ◼ ► walmart air and found that it's uh in some tests it's the same speed and in other tests it's faster
00:39:05 ◼ ► than than the m1 so so yes you can put a iphone pro processor in a macbook and it will actually i
00:39:12 ◼ ► think be decent performance which five years in apple silicon i think is actually the story here i think
00:39:18 ◼ ► the reason this product can exist is because apple silicon has raised the bar or lowered the bar i don't
00:39:25 ◼ ► know where does the bar go it is apple silicon has made it so that even a five-year-old system is
00:39:32 ◼ ► actually pretty good for a lot of uses for base for base uses and if you can get a new chip that is even
00:39:38 ◼ ► cheaper that has a similar performance characteristics that allows you to make a product that's cheaper than
00:39:44 ◼ ► the macbook air which before didn't make sense and i think that's what's going on here so one of the
00:39:50 ◼ ► things that mark german is framing this article around is chromebooks um and saying that apple is kind of
00:39:57 ◼ ► building a chromebook killer yeah yeah um in our document you said what if it's wrong yeah i i think
00:40:04 ◼ ► the frame i think the framing of chromebook killer is a little easy because there are lots of reasons
00:40:09 ◼ ► that especially schools do chromebooks and also my son had a chromebook in high school and let me tell
00:40:14 ◼ ► you chromebooks the the chromebooks that get used that get bought are cheap plastic and sold at great
00:40:22 ◼ ► volume i am dubious that apple can or wants to compete with that kind of like really bad
00:40:31 ◼ ► product are there chromebooks that are more expensive that are a little nicer that apple might want to
00:40:37 ◼ ► compete with sure i'm sure but killer like i think misses the idea i think it's easy to say
00:40:43 ◼ ► the verge wrote a story this weekend and again here's the code any website that has stories posting over
00:40:49 ◼ ► the weekend those are not apologies to everybody those are not the a team of writers wow sorry
00:40:55 ◼ ► those are the people they hire to hold down the fort on the weekend in case something happens
00:40:59 ◼ ► and i'm just i'm just going to come out and say it there was you did get well get get ready okay
00:41:05 ◼ ► because that story was apple's bringing back the netbook okay it's hacky it's hacky yeah um they're
00:41:11 ◼ ► not doing that again it's just a very lazy take on it they're not bringing back the netbook
00:41:15 ◼ ► the point here is just they're going to make a cheaper computer they're going to go down below
00:41:19 ◼ ► what they've been able to do before i think it's because apple has found in its experimentation with
00:41:24 ◼ ► pricing putting the air on sale selling the m1 air at walmart what they're doing is saying
00:41:30 ◼ ► is there an audience beyond our audience people who would aspire to get an apple laptop but they're
00:41:36 ◼ ► just not going to pay 9.99 8.99 even 7.99 for it who are they and can we reach them with a product
00:41:44 ◼ ► that we're still proud to sell that we think does not betray the kind of brand promise of apple and i
00:41:49 ◼ ► think that that's what they've been experimenting with here i don't think they're trying to kill cheap
00:41:53 ◼ ► plastic net uh cheap plastic chromebooks in schools i don't think they're trying to make a netbook i don't
00:41:58 ◼ ► think any of those um angles are right i think that those are are easy but i don't think that's what
00:42:05 ◼ ► they're doing here yeah i i today i spent some time on google store looking at chromebook chromebooks
00:42:10 ◼ ► most of them are like 500 to 700 dollars except this is one that's 180 dollars right so it's like
00:42:16 ◼ ► this machine could come out and compete with and would ultimately kill a large portion of chromebooks
00:42:24 ◼ ► because i think if you have a mac for 500 that's what people are going to buy like unless they are told
00:42:31 ◼ ► to buy something else i think a lot of people would buy it because a lot of people on iphones
00:42:37 ◼ ► right like they know the mac for is there for a reason but it's like that's too expensive right now
00:42:42 ◼ ► apple's only argument in that price point to like schools is an ipad with a keyboard case which has lots of
00:42:50 ◼ ► issues that are solved like running chrome right well also yes right like chromebook killer is at the
00:42:58 ◼ ► individual level it is not at the institutional level schools running chrome now like that's just
00:43:06 ◼ ► what happens right like they use google docs they use all this stuff and the best way to get that
00:43:11 ◼ ► experience is to use a computer that can you can install and run chrome so let me tell you
00:43:16 ◼ ► i said my son had a really really really cheap chromebook that was assigned to him other than the
00:43:23 ◼ ► one test he had to take where they verified that he was on the chromebook let me tell you what he did
00:43:28 ◼ ► he used a macbook yeah all year in fact he used his sister's old one port 12 inch macbook wow that was
00:43:39 ◼ ► his chromebook for the year which is funny right because it's underpowered and all of that book but it was his
00:43:44 ◼ ► chromebook for the year and he he he you know again i mean i expect he was using chrome i i'm sure he
00:43:51 ◼ ► was but this is the thing i and i was not like extolling the virtues of the mac over over over a
00:43:56 ◼ ► chromebook or something he was like this laptop sucks and i said yeah do you want jamie's old he's like yes
00:44:01 ◼ ► please it's gonna be a nicer experience right so i think that that is a thing of like the at the
00:44:05 ◼ ► individual level right like you get the ability to have your own chromebook in school or university or
00:44:11 ◼ ► whatever you're gonna pick up the 500 macbook air instead like that's what you're gonna go and
00:44:16 ◼ ► obviously obviously the other point as our discord is making now is you're also going into a price
00:44:23 ◼ ► level that pc laptops have played without max being against them yeah forever yes keep in mind i believe
00:44:31 ◼ ► the lowest price ever for a new mac sold by apple was 499 for the first mac mini and it didn't come
00:44:39 ◼ ► with a display or keyboard or mouse it wasn't you know it was 499 but it's like 499 in the way that a
00:44:47 ◼ ► car is the price that it says it is when you go in to buy it well it was the base model but yeah you had
00:44:52 ◼ ► to have a keyboard and a mouse and yes but that's my point is this is in many ways uncharted territory
00:44:58 ◼ ► for apple i think apple silicon enables it and and yeah it if i was making a lot of money selling windows
00:45:06 ◼ ► laptops or chromebooks at 599 or 499 i would be a little nervous about apple sliding in there with something
00:45:14 ◼ ► that has the appeal of a macbook air for i mean what what do we think the price is going to be here i my
00:45:19 ◼ ► guess is 500 my my guess is 599 yep because that's what the m1 is at walmart and that it will be
00:45:26 ◼ ► discounted and that like education will get it for 499 and there'll be sales yeah for 499 if you're
00:45:33 ◼ ► if you're in school or you know you get 499 500 laptop yeah that's my guess that's mac os with what
00:45:40 ◼ ► will be a very competitive chip and an iphone chip our audience is very techie and they're very
00:45:46 ◼ ► particular and we love them right as a way we love as our way we love our listeners and one thing that
00:45:52 ◼ ► i've heard from some people is like well yeah well what you know what are the upgrades like because so
00:45:56 ◼ ► many of apple's products are like it's priced at 999 but you know you're going to want the 11 especially
00:46:01 ◼ ► our audience you're going to pay 11.99 or 12.99 for that macbook air because you're going to want more
00:46:04 ◼ ► stories you're going to want more memory what i would say is i don't think this thing's even going to
00:46:08 ◼ ► have an upgrade path i think there's going to be one skew of it it's going to be enough ram to do
00:46:13 ◼ ► basic you know to do apple intelligence but no more it's going to be i think that a 18 pro can only do
00:46:21 ◼ ► like eight gigs of memory i think i mean probably but but this is what it's going to be it will make
00:46:27 ◼ ► may even only be a one skew two skew laptop and the only difference is storage yeah right or color
00:46:32 ◼ ► or color yeah i don't even know if storage but maybe but this is my point is if you basically
00:46:38 ◼ ► it's not meant to be customized if you want a better computer the macbook air is there they don't
00:46:44 ◼ ► want to kill the macbook air by having everybody abandon it to go down to the 599 and so it's going
00:46:50 ◼ ► to be extremely constrained about what it's going to be part of the whole point that is the point of it
00:47:03 ◼ ► which is like a thing that's popped into my head because obviously they only sell the m1 at walmart
00:47:08 ◼ ► it i feel like if it's if it's a proper mac i think they will yeah i could see a scenario so first off
00:47:15 ◼ ► they tried this with the emac and people demanded that they buy it in other channels and so they would
00:47:21 ◼ ► at the very least they would sell it on their education store so i imagine they'll sell it everywhere
00:47:24 ◼ ► and i imagine it'll be in the channel um that's just my guess is i don't think they're going to
00:47:30 ◼ ► try to hide it um i don't mean that but i just wonder if like it's it it's so maybe it's like so
00:47:38 ◼ ► and this might be the chromebook framing of like it is a purposed laptop i think it's i think it's more
00:47:45 ◼ ► like it the advantage of selling it on apple in some ways is now you can say that the macbook line
00:47:50 ◼ ► starts at 599 and then you click through and you're like yeah i'm going to get the macbook air right
00:47:55 ◼ ► like and i guess at that point it's like the mac so it's a fun and you can get a laptop or you get a
00:48:00 ◼ ► mac mini that's up to you for one more thing i'll throw in here which is the ipad base model ipad
00:48:08 ◼ ► missing a lot of stuff all the ipads have yeah fun colors that nobody else has because who wants fun
00:48:14 ◼ ► you're gonna have money or you can have fun i guess those are your choices what are they saying
00:48:19 ◼ ► i don't understand um i could see a parallel here right this is like the equivalent of the ipad
00:48:26 ◼ ► which is why it probably will just be the macbook we didn't even talk about that no yeah this is going
00:48:31 ◼ ► to be macbook i mean i think we spoke about it before but yeah this will be macbook right because
00:48:35 ◼ ► they're going to give it a proper go and do what they should have done before ipad ipad air ipad pro
00:48:40 ◼ ► yeah macbook macbook air macbook pro iphone iphone air iphone pro are you getting it yet this isn't
00:48:47 ◼ ► one computer these are three three different computers and the m5 ultra there's also a room
00:48:53 ◼ ► from mark german uh that the new there'll be new mac mini models coming next year a mac studio as well
00:48:59 ◼ ► with m5 max and m5 ultra chips yeah just so to be clear yeah what mr german is reporting is
00:49:13 ◼ ► do i have to say the quiet part out loud he doesn't mention the mac pro yeah i think and my story
00:49:22 ◼ ► to go all the way back around to my story about five years of apple silicon the last segment is
00:49:27 ◼ ► apple has turned over and redesigned every mac that it sells and refreshed it all for apple silicon
00:49:33 ◼ ► except for the mac pro which exists in an apple silicon version but they didn't redesign it
00:49:41 ◼ ► unless you argue that they did redesign it and they called it the mac studio but the premise
00:49:48 ◼ ► of the this is going to make me really some some of my friends are going to be mad at me the premise of
00:49:53 ◼ ► the mac pro is entirely invalidated by apple silicon and it's never coming back and a report like this
00:49:59 ◼ ► makes me really think like not only do i think oh man what's gonna are they gonna kill the mac pro what
00:50:05 ◼ ► are they gonna do what are they gonna say and part of me thinks well they just need to they just need
00:50:10 ◼ ► to do it because i don't think they're willing to do the stuff required to make the mac pro make sense
00:50:16 ◼ ► and if they're not willing to do it then it's over and and like we've been living for several years now
00:50:21 ◼ ► where the best mac you could buy is a max max studio not a mac pro that's just where we are so maybe we should
00:50:31 ◼ ► all believe that believe it's dead but i mean i've been on this bandwagon for a long time mostly because i
00:50:39 ◼ ► think it's hilarious you've been circling the cemetery but like this product it didn't make any sense when
00:50:44 ◼ ► they announced it no because we went on a different path like we're in a different this product only
00:50:50 ◼ ► exists because they were really sorry about what they did they're really sorry they made a big mistake
00:50:54 ◼ ► and they were very sad about it the trash can was bad so they had to apologize so they're like whoops
00:50:58 ◼ ► this was like our apology to you was a bad one we now need to make another one because the trash can
00:51:05 ◼ ► only existed because they were like we're so sorry we neglected the mac yeah so they made this beautiful
00:51:10 ◼ ► thing yes then they had to apologize yeah it's the apology for the apology and then the rest of the
00:51:15 ◼ ► company went in a completely different direction by the time yes by the time that shipped it was like no we're over here
00:51:20 ◼ ► now we're doing this now now and yeah so i i think yes it's done right like it's it that's it i don't yeah
00:51:30 ◼ ► it doesn't make any sense as a computer i don't how much space do you want in the case to put nothing
00:51:34 ◼ ► in it and thunderbolt so fast now that you could you can put a you can put a breakout box if you want to
00:51:39 ◼ ► put cards in it or something right and the cards you can put in it there are like four of them because
00:51:43 ◼ ► you can't do gpu cards anymore and again this is the point of the five years of apple silicon is there's
00:51:48 ◼ ► so many gpus in in in high-end systems and there's so much memory that's addressable now that like
00:51:54 ◼ ► i just i'm sorry it just they went in i'm not i'm not out for the mac pro because i think a computer
00:52:02 ◼ ► like that okay that's why you're circling the cemetery you're just waiting in the graveyard
00:52:06 ◼ ► they're holding they're holding the funeral and you've got a bullhorn on the outside and you're like
00:52:12 ◼ ► give it up it's over see ya so what i'm saying is it doesn't matter how i feel about the mac pro
00:52:19 ◼ ► apple has moved elsewhere and it's just not there anymore that's it happy birthday apple silicon
00:52:27 ◼ ► happy birthday apple silicon this episode is brought to you by factor i don't know about you but fall
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00:54:41 ◼ ► it's the mark german power hour mark german obviously features very heavily in rumor roundup
00:54:56 ◼ ► as the sheriff aka the wizard as he is known in other places um all of the rumors today are marks
00:55:03 ◼ ► all of them yeah he's been busy he's a busy guy after mentioning the possibility last week mark german
00:55:09 ◼ ► is now reporting with much more detail on the deal that is uh in the off between nothing offing in
00:55:19 ◼ ► that's happening sir i guess awning was already taken because that's the thing that covers the window
00:55:23 ◼ ► it's an awning yeah i don't think so the offing the offing not on you take the awning off it's
00:55:29 ◼ ► offing it's offing anyway this awning is worth a lot of money but maybe not that much we'll see
00:55:34 ◼ ► uh they they're working on a deal that would see siri being powered by a white labeled version of
00:55:40 ◼ ► gemini mark is saying that apple is set to pay google one billion dollars a year for access to a
00:55:47 ◼ ► 1.2 trillion parameter model that they will use on private cloud compute apple's current private cloud
00:55:54 ◼ ► compute model of their own has 150 billion parameters so a 1.2 trillion model it's more that is a lot more
00:56:01 ◼ ► and i asked federico to explain this to me like i was five years old i'm connected and the way that i
00:56:07 ◼ ► i kind of took away from him is it's the size of a memory it's like if you imagine a brain and a brain
00:56:13 ◼ ► could keep information in it if you had 150 billion billion pieces of information it's a lot of
00:56:18 ◼ ► information but if you were able to remember 1.2 million 1.2 trillion sorry pieces of information
00:56:23 ◼ ► it's a lot more information a lot more and he talked about you know unconnected last week
00:56:27 ◼ ► um the idea that it's probably a mixture of experts model which is the idea that you can have all of
00:56:33 ◼ ► these parameters because you've got kind of like a top level router in your brain that says what do i
00:56:39 ◼ ► need to know what category and then it activates another part of the model because you there's not
00:56:44 ◼ ► enough memory to keep all of it active and it's not necessary i i likened to like the when you go to
00:56:50 ◼ ► a library and you look for the what are they called little cards yeah card catalog is a card
00:56:55 ◼ ► catalog it's kind of find out where it is and then you go there and you go get it all that stuff yeah
00:56:59 ◼ ► so but all this happens incredibly quickly but you can see just in numbers terms that seems like a big
00:57:04 ◼ ► job right for for uh for a billion dollars yeah so last week on the show we had the rumor of oh
00:57:10 ◼ ► apple went with google for financial reasons and i was like oh i don't know if that's the right
00:57:15 ◼ ► decision like they thought that anthropics model was more capable i get it now yeah because a billion
00:57:21 ◼ ► dollars is nothing and i cannot imagine that anthropic were anywhere near that number they were
00:57:27 ◼ ► probably in the hundreds of billions tens of billions of dollars well yeah they want they want
00:57:32 ◼ ► money it's more important and google is playing a different game yeah and it's bigger picture yeah and
00:57:39 ◼ ► they have an existing billions of dollars a year relationship with apple that this just gets added
00:57:44 ◼ ► to um probably yeah google looks at this and says sure that's a that's an engineering project that's
00:57:51 ◼ ► interesting to build it for private cloud compute instead and to white label it like sure we'll do
00:57:57 ◼ ► that in a way that anthropic would have been like i don't know yeah you're gonna have to make it work
00:58:01 ◼ ► or worth our while it'll be five billion dollars a year or whatever and apple says to these companies
00:58:06 ◼ ► two specific companies that already have so many arrangements money flowing backwards and forwards
00:58:12 ◼ ► yep a billion dollars is actually nothing right like it's nothing both of these companies have
00:58:17 ◼ ► like a 100 billion dollar quarter the last quarter like indeed and and and there's a transfer of 20
00:58:23 ◼ ► billion dollars this is nothing just for the the search deal i was thinking why and i was wondering
00:58:28 ◼ ► this is just pure pontificating okay is a billion dollars a big enough number that this doesn't look
00:58:35 ◼ ► anti-competitive i think it's i think there's enough competition right now in ai that this doesn't look
00:58:46 ◼ ► because i mean like a billion dollars is free yeah for these companies that is free like it's nothing
00:58:51 ◼ ► like apple will probably never give google any money google will just knock a billion dollars of the
00:58:56 ◼ ► money that they give them yeah yeah right first the first three weeks so i'm just wondering like
00:58:59 ◼ ► what is the point of them even exchanging money on this and i'm wondering if it is a legal reason
00:59:06 ◼ ► like they are doing this as a thing so google is not just freely giving apple just giving it well i
00:59:13 ◼ ► yeah you may be right i would say also there's a real cost here to google right this is unlike but i
00:59:19 ◼ ► don't think a billion dollars covers that well i mean leaving aside everything else i think there's a cost
00:59:26 ◼ ► just an engineering of how do we generate a version of this that's white label that's not gemini and
00:59:32 ◼ ► that is compiled to run on apple servers and that's a project that has employees on it that doesn't cost a
00:59:38 ◼ ► billion dollars a year to do right so if you're saying we'll throw that in there and then we'll throw
00:59:45 ◼ ► in a you know what for us would be you know an enormous amount of money but for them is nothing a
00:59:51 ◼ ► cursory amount of money a billion dollars for intellectual property licensing all of that
00:59:56 ◼ ► we'll revisit it later all of these things i don't know i mean i i i it's it's an interesting
01:00:03 ◼ ► idea i think google loves this i guess this would be any competitive i think google loves the idea that
01:00:08 ◼ ► the assistant on all smartphones is essentially powered by its technology but apple's viewing this
01:00:16 ◼ ► as a white label because apple wants the ability and this is what would be competitive is apple is
01:00:21 ◼ ► viewing this as the ability to swap it out for another model whether it's theirs or someone else's
01:00:25 ◼ ► anytime and there's no google doesn't keep any kind of like purchase in the os with this because it's not
01:00:32 ◼ ► where'd my google go because it was never google it's just yeah so google like that's just ego for
01:00:38 ◼ ► google because they can't talk about it is the expectation from the deal right that like sure maybe the
01:00:43 ◼ ► the industry knows and that's enough right but it's see but mark is saying that it is likely that the
01:00:48 ◼ ► deal will include the like it's not going to say siri power by gemini and google won't be able to go
01:00:53 ◼ ► out and say we power siri right and yes in theory apple is able to swap the model out right and there is
01:01:02 ◼ ► there is reporting from mark that apple's going to continue working on their own models in the background
01:01:08 ◼ ► right and that yet but but doesn't he also report that they're going to call this an apple foundation
01:01:15 ◼ ► model version 10 or something oh i didn't catch that i thought i saw that somewhere and i thought well
01:01:20 ◼ ► they are still going to have that that is yeah but i'm like i yeah i think i think the point you're about
01:01:26 ◼ ► to make which is does apple even need even if they could which they maybe can't make a model
01:01:33 ◼ ► to beat google or someone else well yeah do they even do they even need to they don't need to but
01:01:39 ◼ ► the point you was making about they could swap it out i just don't think technically they may be able
01:01:45 ◼ ► to i just wonder at a certain point if you actually kind of can't or you're you're gonna make it's gonna
01:01:52 ◼ ► work weird it's gonna go wrong it's not gonna go as people expect i don't know ai models get swapped out
01:01:58 ◼ ► all the time sure and and and and at some point they're gonna need to swap the old google model
01:02:03 ◼ ► out for a new model at which point it doesn't necessarily have to be a google model it could
01:02:08 ◼ ► be somebody else's model it could be an apple model i i'm kind of a believer that these ai models are
01:02:14 ◼ ► going to be pretty commoditized i think they are in a lot of places they are already and and so apple
01:02:22 ◼ ► what this comes down to and it's a big picture kind of topic maybe for another day but what it
01:02:29 ◼ ► comes down to is what does apple need to make and does apple need to make this we we proceeded under
01:02:36 ◼ ► the assumption i think apple has proceeded under the assumption that apple needs to make its own
01:02:40 ◼ ► llm on its products yeah i don't know if they do i don't know if they do they certainly and i hope
01:02:48 ◼ ► i hope for their sake that they don't because they seem to not be able to yes and and my expectation
01:02:53 ◼ ► is this deal actually makes it even harder for them to do so because if if apple have and i'm sure they
01:03:01 ◼ ► do but like reporting would suggest that every star has moved to met a dwindling number of people are
01:03:07 ◼ ► working on apple's foundation models and if you're hot if you're working on apple's foundation models and
01:03:12 ◼ ► apple has decided they're just going to use google's why would you not go why would you go somewhere else
01:03:16 ◼ ► yeah go to google facebook or anthropic anywhere anywhere because apple it doesn't feel like
01:03:22 ◼ ► they're prioritizing i agree and i think apple's end game here is one of two things either the
01:03:26 ◼ ► commodification of this means that it doesn't matter where they get it and it's all coming from the same
01:03:30 ◼ ► thing and because keep in mind it's not really a ticking clock on google apple and google have had
01:03:35 ◼ ► the search deal forever and and they wanted to go on forever apple and google enemies anymore an llm
01:03:42 ◼ ► deal and they that could go on forever i think the only way this ends in a in a way where apple
01:03:48 ◼ ► is now building its own models is if either apple is so against the wall that they need to spend
01:03:58 ◼ ► 10 billion dollars buying someone in five years like or oh i'm buying sorry sorry yeah and buying
01:04:06 ◼ ► some other company or there's a the bubble burst they wait and apple scoops somebody up on the cheap
01:04:13 ◼ ► who who has a bunch of engineers who are working on cutting edge models the model and all the i and the
01:04:18 ◼ ► model and all the ip and they just sort of scoop it in i was thinking somebody mentioned mistral which
01:04:23 ◼ ► which because oh federico mentioned it because they use um that's the french company um and they have a
01:04:29 ◼ ► uh an expert model like that um and i thought i find that intriguing and they some people have
01:04:37 ◼ ► linked to apple and mistral in the past and and what i thought is well what i like about that is
01:04:41 ◼ ► you're not hiring silicon valley engineers at that point you're hiring european engineers
01:04:46 ◼ ► and they might be harder to steal and they might be in a different environment and not know all the same
01:04:52 ◼ ► people um but i think the most likely scenario yeah is that apple will just use these companies
01:04:58 ◼ ► until the a bubble burst if i'm tim cook at this point in 2025 that's that's the route that i take
01:05:04 ◼ ► like we've got to give up this is not working for us we can't do this we've got a good partner for
01:05:09 ◼ ► whatever reason we can't do this we've got a good partner we have multiple good partners yes because
01:05:12 ◼ ► open ai is a good partner to them sure it's powering a lot of their stuff yeah very telling that open ai
01:05:18 ◼ ► isn't doing this right they obviously have a very good relationship because over the two years that
01:05:23 ◼ ► that got deeper and deeper i think the ai startups don't want to make this deal commoditized because
01:05:30 ◼ ► they don't want to be commoditized they don't want to be white labeled their own they want to build
01:05:33 ◼ ► their own products google don't care google does not care does not care all google needs
01:05:38 ◼ ► is for chat to be to go away that's all they need whatever it takes like for google it's terrible
01:05:46 ◼ ► if anthropic or open ai get this deal with apple like it's just not good they don't want this
01:05:51 ◼ ► weirdly at the same time that gemini is not in ios that still hasn't happened that i can't use
01:05:58 ◼ ► although i still i still wonder if some of that was they were waiting for a lot of legal things to
01:06:01 ◼ ► possibly but i i'm still expecting that to happen and it has yet to happen i think it would be a benefit
01:06:07 ◼ ► for apple yes if they could just say like they did in x code choose login here's our interface they they
01:06:16 ◼ ► hand the api to all the ai companies and they say we're going to let our users choose what yeah um they
01:06:24 ◼ ► want to use as an add-on and it'll be integrated at the system level and your it'll be whatever so
01:06:29 ◼ ► like if i've got claude i'll use claude if i've got chat gpt i'll use that yeah i mean i think that in the
01:06:35 ◼ ► end you probably want to do that as a just be from a user's perspective like everybody's got
01:06:40 ◼ ► their favorite if if you've got a favorite if you're paying for one of these you'd like to be
01:06:44 ◼ ► able to integrate that into your it's all your search histories there and you know the searches
01:06:49 ◼ ► that you make are saved in your account but yeah if i'm tim cook now you kind of got to give up
01:06:54 ◼ ► trying to do your own thing it isn't working for you and you are i think understandably unwilling
01:07:00 ◼ ► to pay what meta is paying because meta is being silly they're being very silly right like and also
01:07:08 ◼ ► i don't need to pay individuals a billion dollars to work for you meta meta is being a little silly
01:07:13 ◼ ► they are acting as if this is an existential crisis but i sometimes feel like that's the only way meta
01:07:19 ◼ ► does anything right remember remember when the metaverse was an existential crisis and they need to
01:07:24 ◼ ► spend all the money possible for the company for the metaverse i think it's a little bit like that
01:07:28 ◼ ► well because i think these are to zuckerberg right yeah because and he thinks mobile was an
01:07:34 ◼ ► existential crisis it was one that he missed and it was a big problem for him he hates it he never
01:07:39 ◼ ► wants that to happen again and so he so he treats them all like this and also because he can because
01:07:45 ◼ ► he has utter control over the company which is very rare like zuckerberg has more control over meta than
01:07:51 ◼ ► tim cook does over apple because of the way that the shares are sure no one can tell him what to do
01:07:58 ◼ ► if i'm tim i wait now yeah because you're you you're not going to be able to produce something
01:08:04 ◼ ► that is competitive in a time frame that you're happy with and you don't need to happen you don't
01:08:08 ◼ ► need now that you've accepted everyone will work with you now that you've accepted that your stuff
01:08:13 ◼ ► can't get there yeah which is very freeing and i think i think that's behind the whole rockwell
01:08:21 ◼ ► and federighi being put in charge of this stuff instead of john gian andrea i think in the end
01:08:29 ◼ ► that's going to be what the net result is is you admit that it's not going to come from apple
01:08:36 ◼ ► you've got good partners who will make a product because remember people like federighi and rockwell are
01:08:45 ◼ ► focused on the end product that ships to customers that's that's what they do it's all seen through the lens of
01:08:51 ◼ ► what are we going to ship to customers not what are we going to build internally but what are we going
01:08:54 ◼ ► to ship to customers and the moment that they're satisfied that they can integrate with a third
01:08:59 ◼ ► party llm running on their private systems that generates a level of utility for the users that's good
01:09:08 ◼ ► it's over like that allows them to give up on building it themselves for now yeah and so like the way i love
01:09:18 ◼ ► this because that you here it's like the tim cook sheet from mike is step one give up step two find
01:09:31 ◼ ► all the while every step is profit for apple by the way yeah always i'm i'm i'm not making a statement
01:09:41 ◼ ► here but i'm i'm already tired of people talking about the bubble bursting i'm tired of this conversation
01:09:47 ◼ ► already because it's all it is like it is just being taken as a given and everyone just keeps saying it
01:09:54 ◼ ► over and over and over again i don't know what's going to happen and anybody that tells you to know
01:09:59 ◼ ► what's going to happen is wrong right because nobody knows what's going to happen it it is i think
01:10:04 ◼ ► abundantly clear that it will not continue on the trajectory that it is on maybe it just declines
01:10:10 ◼ ► maybe the industry doesn't completely implode maybe it does maybe it doesn't i don't know i think the
01:10:15 ◼ ► only scenario that hurts apple is if this dream that people have that that there's going to be a
01:10:22 ◼ ► breakthrough that is enormous and not replicable right the idea that facebook gets or chat gpt gets
01:10:32 ◼ ► general intelligence like somebody actually breaks into this thing as a brain and it's and then what
01:10:38 ◼ ► and and it's and but this is the thing not only does that have to happen i would argue that there's
01:10:43 ◼ ► not evidence for either of those things i don't think there's any evidence that an llm is going to become
01:10:47 ◼ ► a human brain yep a sentient brain i also don't think there's any evidence that any ai breakthrough
01:10:55 ◼ ► will not be replicated by every other ai researcher because so far that has happened absolutely because
01:11:00 ◼ ► that always happens like deep seek whoa and then within weeks everyone's been reasoning right but like
01:11:06 ◼ ► my point is like yeah i'm just finding it frustrating to hear people keep saying it but my what i'm driving
01:11:12 ◼ ► towards this then the the third point in the tim cook plan something economically is going to change
01:11:18 ◼ ► which is going to make one of these companies very attainable for you right and you just wait until
01:11:23 ◼ ► that point right and and and and that point you'll know by the way because here's the other thing if
01:11:30 ◼ ► maybe working with google is fine yeah right like if it's if it's a commodity apple doesn't have a search
01:11:39 ◼ ► engine exactly i mean they they do but they only deploy it for a couple of things because it doesn't
01:11:46 ◼ ► matter and same as they're still a foundation model they will still have ml models to do stuff but it's
01:11:51 ◼ ► going to be a that they said coming says their apple will still have models that route like sure right
01:11:55 ◼ ► so like that's still an llm it's on the iphone and it's you know hopefully means that i'll still be
01:12:01 ◼ ► able to turn my lights off about having to go and query a 1.2 trillion parameter model up in the
01:12:06 ◼ ► plan for not to i would prefer not to have to do that yeah so i i agree i think i think that there
01:12:11 ◼ ► is a very limited number of scenarios here that don't play out in a way that's okay for apple
01:12:16 ◼ ► because i i unless there's one provider of this technology and they've got apple cornered and
01:12:23 ◼ ► nobody else has it i think apple will be fine because you know the only other risk is that this
01:12:30 ◼ ► technology completely makes it so nobody ever needs an iphone anymore which i just don't think is
01:12:33 ◼ ► going to happen i think i think that the ai hype cycle uh dreaming that it's going to replace
01:12:38 ◼ ► literally everything else is too far um and and you're right either they have good partners and
01:12:44 ◼ ► they can just use good partners or they scoop somebody up whose um economics have gone upside down
01:12:52 ◼ ► and are really smart and have a lot of great uh intellectual property and employees and now are
01:12:59 ◼ ► on hard times and they get brought in to do it like there there's just the apple's got a lot of options
01:13:05 ◼ ► there but this is the start of that yep this is the start of that mark german is also reporting about
01:13:10 ◼ ► some satellite features that apple is working on uh they say that apple is building an api that
01:13:15 ◼ ► will let developers add satellite connections to their own apps uh that it may bring satellite
01:13:20 ◼ ► connectivity to apple maps so users could navigate without cellular or wi-fi access you forget to download
01:13:25 ◼ ► your maps and you get lost you can get a satellite yeah that they may add enhanced satellite messaging
01:13:31 ◼ ► that supports photos in addition to basic text and as previously reported by the information next year's
01:13:38 ◼ ► iphones will support something called 5g ntn which lets cellular towers tap satellites for increased coverage
01:13:50 ◼ ► you know that it needs to use that extra kick for some remote cell cell tower that can then get some
01:13:57 ◼ ► data via satellite that kind of thing quote the company aimed to let users stay connected while their iphone
01:14:03 ◼ ► is in a pocket car or even indoors eliminating the need to physically point the device towards the sky
01:14:08 ◼ ► the approach is known in the industry as natural usage i just like that natural usage natural just
01:14:14 ◼ ► natural i don't know how in it is works um and it doesn't seem like there's a business model that
01:14:19 ◼ ► would suggest in any way that it works because there is absolutely zero so money going anywhere for
01:14:24 ◼ ► this german what german says is so german's piece is more about like potential transformation of the
01:14:32 ◼ ► wireless industry via satellite and then he kind of wedges apple in there i don't think i i just don't
01:14:37 ◼ ► think apple needs to be wedged in there i think there is a real question because um so echo star which
01:14:43 ◼ ► grand dish network um they had a bunch of spectrum licenses that they bought um this idea that
01:14:51 ◼ ► that or that spacex bought for starlink from echo star so the idea is will satellite internet replace
01:15:03 ◼ ► cellular or augment cellular right now a lot of the carriers have satellite plans t-mobile has a deal with spacex there's this idea that maybe the
01:15:13 ◼ ► the future of your cell phone's data signal is a blend of towers and satellites now towers are
01:15:23 ◼ ► expensive satellites are also expensive towers are limited satellites are also limited i i think that
01:15:30 ◼ ► it's very easy to run away with satellites and be like ah satellites will fix everything it's like
01:15:35 ◼ ► i don't think that is necessarily true no i don't understand it but but the idea that you can augment all of those
01:15:41 ◼ ► coverage gaps and maybe even some of your low with this ntn stuff your low coverage areas where data
01:15:47 ◼ ► can't get there easily with satellite is an interesting idea how does that change the economics of the cell
01:15:54 ◼ ► carriers how much are they cutting in you know spacex for that or other companies that have satellite
01:15:59 ◼ ► constellations i think it's all out there i'm not sure it feels to me again this is very apple
01:16:04 ◼ ► very tim cook apple feels to me like apple's like you know what we're gonna experiment with some really
01:16:11 ◼ ► nice basic features and then we're gonna kind of let the the rest of it play out and i think that's okay
01:16:16 ◼ ► but they are experimenting with some nice basic extensions like they added texting right that was
01:16:23 ◼ ► new the idea that you could download a map of your location when you're lost and not on a signal
01:16:28 ◼ ► that's nice an api which would obviously be like you have to to use that api you've got to have very
01:16:35 ◼ ► limited data and you've got to warn the user and there's a whole bunch of stuff but that would let
01:16:39 ◼ ► a third party have access to the satellite this is all you know this is all fine and then in the
01:16:45 ◼ ► meantime if it turns out in five years your cell plan just comes with full-on satellite whatever okay
01:16:50 ◼ ► right sure uh mark is also reporting that fitness plus is looking a little shaky so quote the 9.99 a
01:16:58 ◼ ► month service suffers from high churn and offers little revenue upside that has quote enough loyalty
01:17:04 ◼ ► from its small fan base that it can't be shut down without a backlash oh no a backlash there's a
01:17:11 ◼ ► a backlash from some very fit strong people so you've got to worry about that backlash you don't
01:17:17 ◼ ► want that muscle backlash you do not want that no that's powerful they could get you they're going
01:17:21 ◼ ► to pilate you to death does anybody really pay just for this i can't imagine like my expectation is
01:17:31 ◼ ► over 95 of the people using fitness plus have it as part of apple one and that's that's actually my
01:17:39 ◼ ► argument here which is like you don't i i don't first off i don't believe that the small fan base
01:17:44 ◼ ► backlashing it being shut down would make apple give have any pause at all yeah i do think
01:17:50 ◼ ► it would be bad for the services narrative it would look it just look bad apple shuts down one of its
01:17:56 ◼ ► services that generates revenue when it's saying look how much money you're making and and mark
01:18:00 ◼ ► german makes the point like it doesn't really cost that much and they're just paying for the trainers
01:18:05 ◼ ► they've already built they built a studio it doesn't really cost that much apple makes a lot of
01:18:13 ◼ ► having more stuff that you stuff in the apple one bag is valuable and also a fitness service that you
01:18:22 ◼ ► get for free is very aspirational yeah it makes people feel good not free like oh look at this
01:18:28 ◼ ► it's included yeah and it fits with the apple watch and it fits with apple's message with their heart
01:18:33 ◼ ► right yeah like and every time they have the apple watch because the apple watch doesn't have too much
01:18:38 ◼ ► to talk about they can always talk about fitness plus as well so it's a nice mixture again maybe it's
01:18:45 ◼ ► just the the london air or something but i'm gonna get a little little spiky here okay stabby this feels like
01:18:55 ◼ ► somebody at apple who's cranky about fitness talk to mark german well yes because don't forget there's
01:19:02 ◼ ► been a reshuffle yeah and the person who's in charge of fitness plus j blanick has been
01:19:08 ◼ ► deprioritizing that reshuffle there is uh allegations against blanick of misconduct yeah
01:19:21 ◼ ► oh like somebody yeah came dr somber went in over him during the reshuffle yeah so she's in charge of
01:19:29 ◼ ► this and it appears from the outside like there has been a a demotion of sorts yeah uh even though he
01:19:35 ◼ ► still remains at the company and fitness was his bailiwick fitness is his whole thing i just i got i
01:19:40 ◼ ► got a real vibe from this like there's somebody inside apple who talks to mark roman who's like what the
01:19:44 ◼ ► heck is going on with fitness plus it's a loser they you know they'd like to kill it but we can't
01:19:50 ◼ ► because everybody complain about it it just sounds very catty kind of to me this whole tone of this
01:19:55 ◼ ► thing and again for me i i think it's interesting because what's being reported here is it's got
01:20:02 ◼ ► not a lot of uptake and a lot of churn i'm like okay everything else we've just said though is like
01:20:08 ◼ ► yeah you just got to keep it apple's not going out of business anytime soon services matter stuffing
01:20:13 ◼ ► another service in the apple one bundle especially one that is aligned really well with so many other
01:20:20 ◼ ► apple products i'm sorry like it it it just makes sense for that product to exist even if even if it's
01:20:29 ◼ ► mostly just apple one people who are using it and yeah if they need to make some changes to management
01:20:33 ◼ ► to get to try and make it more popular great but like it just fits so well that i i can't see them
01:20:40 ◼ ► giving up on it but it is an interesting data point regardless of how kind of like grumpy the source
01:20:45 ◼ ► is here that it is perceived at least among some people inside apple that fitness plus has kind of
01:20:51 ◼ ► lost its way and is not performing fair enough but i'm maybe not surprised about that i'm not surprised
01:20:56 ◼ ► about it i mean i know people who use it but apple news i would believe you as well you know what i mean
01:21:02 ◼ ► like like oh mike look this might just be a problem at apple news no way it's like i don't use these
01:21:08 ◼ ► services so maybe that's the problem right like if you said there was this issue at apple tv i would
01:21:13 ◼ ► be like really yeah it seems like they're firing all cylinders right now right like right but there
01:21:17 ◼ ► are these certain areas where it's like well yeah i mean at this point these just feel like also
01:21:23 ◼ ► ran it's like these are services that if apple didn't have the bundle and didn't have a services
01:21:28 ◼ ► narrative would not exist anymore right they will look punts that they took but shut down
01:21:32 ◼ ► but they're perfectly and as somebody who doesn't really i only use apple news plus literally to read
01:21:38 ◼ ► articles from places that i don't have a subscription but they're in apple news plus yeah that's it that's
01:21:43 ◼ ► all i use it for but i do use it for that and and again it's a benefit of my apple one bundle yeah
01:21:53 ◼ ► the presents under the tree these are the is it early too early for me to use this no i don't think so
01:21:59 ◼ ► these are but but the stocking stuffer that's really what i mean they add bulk yeah they're not
01:22:03 ◼ ► if you want to say that it's a uh it's like a side dish on the thanksgiving plate whoa keeps going
01:22:11 ◼ ► we're now going backwards uh it is it's like that right it's not going to provide the nutrition
01:22:16 ◼ ► necessarily but um it's good to have it's good to have an array there and and and i do think these
01:22:22 ◼ ► are be mad if you just gave them the turkey yeah and and um if it's something appropriately seasonal
01:22:28 ◼ ► and it's aligned with the values of your thanksgiving dinner all the better and that is what's and
01:22:33 ◼ ► that is what's going on with fitness it's aligned to apple's values just like mashed potatoes
01:22:42 ◼ ► this episode is brought to you by express vpn have you true or false and here's a game we're
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01:24:49 ◼ ► it's beautiful lasers i had to get out of the way of those very dangerous dodge those lasers
01:24:53 ◼ ► very dangerous matthias wants to know i know it's not possible regularly but i enjoy hearing the two
01:25:01 ◼ ► of you in an in-person episode do you think that it's better or does the physical presence make it
01:25:06 ◼ ► difficult to do an audio podcast oh i don't know well i i actually i do so it makes it difficult in
01:25:16 ◼ ► ways because it encourages bad practices right that we try to avoid with video like earlier when
01:25:22 ◼ ► i banged the desk which again i apologize for all right i'm sorry that i did it but i just did i was
01:25:26 ◼ ► excited but also in the past we try not to talk about this too much but we've done episodes where we've
01:25:32 ◼ ► refused to stay on microphone because we were too excited to look at iphones that we had in our
01:25:36 ◼ ► possession these are things we would not do and do not do when we're separated from each other and
01:25:41 ◼ ► similarly even though this episode has a video version every single week available on youtube
01:25:46 ◼ ► neither of us are looking at each other while we're recording right and like that stops the
01:25:51 ◼ ► ability for kind of like the video mindset and the visual mindset to disrupt what is astronomically
01:25:58 ◼ ► predominantly an audio podcast exactly right like our video viewers we love you we love all of you video
01:26:04 ◼ ► viewers but it is a very very small percentage of our overall audience and so we don't want to we i'm
01:26:11 ◼ ► not interested you're not interested in making the show more visual at the like expense of the
01:26:17 ◼ ► bulk of our viewers it doesn't make sense of our audience no this is an audio podcast that has a video
01:26:22 ◼ ► version so that is kind of the downside of it but i prefer the conversation when we're in person oh yeah
01:26:30 ◼ ► yeah yeah yeah like it is a better conversation to have it is a nicer conversation to have it's easier
01:26:36 ◼ ► it flows better we interrupt each other less like all that stuff it works really well i like it a lot
01:26:41 ◼ ► right and those uh we edited it out but i i gave mike a little look and uh and during an ad read earlier
01:26:49 ◼ ► and he had to stop and do it again so there's stuff like that too yeah carlos writes in and says what
01:26:54 ◼ ► what is the oldest school or old school list what would it be old school because of the school
01:26:59 ◼ ► oldest school old schoolest old schoolest mac thing that you two still do regularly out of habit
01:27:06 ◼ ► for example dragging an external drive to the trash to unmount hey wait a second that is weird to do i do
01:27:13 ◼ ► that that's a weird why is that old school it's right click i mean you could do that too no but that's
01:27:20 ◼ ► what you should do well i mean honestly honestly you shouldn't be unmounting them like anyone you
01:27:25 ◼ ► just pull them out and it's fine why are we doing this oh no but then it yells at me yeah but no no
01:27:29 ◼ ► but i think the system should just be like whatever oh i agree 2025 i i agree there's no disc spinning
01:27:34 ◼ ► anymore i agree i mean yank it out leave me alone if i just even like a disc image though you can't
01:27:40 ◼ ► yank out a disc image ah gotcha yeah but you know what i do with those what well one they're not on my
01:27:46 ◼ ► desktop because i'm not an animal oh right they're in the finder and i just hit the little eject button
01:27:52 ◼ ► yeah that's true that's what i do to all of these that's true but if i have have attached a usb drive
01:27:56 ◼ ► i will generally just drag it to the i i'm side dock it's sure it's not that tall yeah but like it's on
01:28:04 ◼ ► the desktop yeah but you've clicked and you'll drag drag drag you know you do right click eject
01:28:09 ◼ ► that's the way to do it i guess this is my answer yeah i i looked at this question and i don't
01:28:15 ◼ ► i don't think i have a good answer because i don't think i do a lot of those types of things
01:28:18 ◼ ► i mean maybe if i have habits from what is almost 20 years ago that is old school but i don't know
01:28:24 ◼ ► what they are okay in such a way that it's like we need to get somebody in here who is younger to
01:28:30 ◼ ► observe me and the strange things that i do but i i mean i guess you know i use stage manager i think
01:28:37 ◼ ► that's weird it's not old it's not old school though someone has written it new i don't have that name
01:28:41 ◼ ► in front of me right now who wants me to explain how i use stage manager on a quiet a week yeah
01:28:46 ◼ ► we're going to talk about this save that for some other because like i have multiple ways you can
01:28:49 ◼ ► talk about it i'll go get some tea yeah and this is mike's time that's my special time with the
01:28:54 ◼ ► special time all right with the listeners all right let's talk about stage manager to everyone makes
01:28:58 ◼ ► sense and how oh how i use it and why i'm crazy but i use it anyway a lot of shift clicks a lot of shift
01:29:04 ◼ ► clicks when we're using stage manager yeah i i can't think of something that i do that would be
01:29:09 ◼ ► old school you're right you're right on things with pens on the mac oh on the mac on the mac don't
01:29:15 ◼ ► run i mean i do lots of old school this things on my own time you i was listening to you type earlier
01:29:19 ◼ ► today it was a lot of fun because that's the real clicky that's good clicky old school keyboard
01:29:25 ◼ ► it's a good keyboard i mean this is an audio podcast i can go get the keyboard no people okay uh
01:29:31 ◼ ► tom says you spoke about a rumor that the ipad mini is set to get an oled screen and improved
01:29:35 ◼ ► water resistance this discussion led to a comparison of people using the ipad mini as a reading device
01:29:40 ◼ ► like a kindle and perhaps want to be sitting by a pole while reading it if this is apple's angle do
01:29:45 ◼ ► you think we could also get a nano texture display option oh boy wouldn't that be fun um for a two
01:29:52 ◼ ► thousand dollar ipad thus far all of apple's goals have been for the iphone as well as the ipad
01:30:07 ◼ ► it feel nano texture feels like a pro feature to me more than it does for something like this
01:30:13 ◼ ► i agree 100 that one of the great reasons to have a kindle or similar e-reader is in bright sunlight
01:30:19 ◼ ► it's clear as a bell in a way that a backlit screen just can't be so maybe probably not but maybe it'd be
01:30:28 ◼ ► fun but i don't think it'd be too much yeah i think it's too much that would be cool though
01:30:34 ◼ ► because that then it would be kind of it was waterproof and had no glare it would be actually
01:30:39 ◼ ► a pretty great e-reader oh yeah oh cool side yeah uh patrick says all the earnings talk has got me
01:30:46 ◼ ► thinking what apple sales statistic would you most want to see if you could magically get tim to tell you
01:30:54 ◼ ► so you look at these charts all the time is there a piece of information you're like my life would be
01:30:58 ◼ ► easier talking about generating these charts if i had an extra piece of information i miss unit sales
01:31:05 ◼ ► yes that's mine too they stopped reporting unit sales they only report revenue now which means we can
01:31:12 ◼ ► say that the revenue went up but we can't say they sold more iphones because we don't know they might
01:31:18 ◼ ► have just sold more expensive iphones and there's no way to tell if i think the spirit of this question
01:31:24 ◼ ► is i would love to see unit breakdowns of sales i would love to see officially how many different
01:31:32 ◼ ► how many they sold of the different iphone models because what they would say is we sold 20 million
01:31:36 ◼ ► iphones but i want to know did you sell 10 million iphone pro 5 million iphone air i would love to see
01:31:42 ◼ ► that now we there are proxies for all of that stuff right like we know a lot we know a lot of uh app
01:31:47 ◼ ► developers who can look at their um stats and see who's using their app and from that kind of glean
01:31:55 ◼ ► what the sales figures are but it's hard it's not real i would love to see yeah because there's
01:32:01 ◼ ► self-selecting audiences that do this i would love to see apple uh if if tim let me peek it would probably
01:32:08 ◼ ► be something like that i know some people would say the google search revenue would be but we know that
01:32:13 ◼ ► now yeah but what is it 20 billion and is it going down is it going up there's that one analyst who
01:32:19 ◼ ► wanted to know that i don't know i mean for me it would it would be i'd like i'd like some more
01:32:23 ◼ ► granularity about what's going on maybe their ad sales business yeah what's going on with that but
01:32:28 ◼ ► really bottom line it would be unit sales and breaking out per it's like i would love to know like
01:32:34 ◼ ► do you sell more ipads or max like you know in number in number probably you know what i mean like
01:32:39 ◼ ► like things like do you sell more ipad pro than macbook pro they used to stuff like that they used
01:32:44 ◼ ► to break out max sales by desktop and laptop yeah and it's been so long now that i legit don't know
01:32:59 ◼ ► whatever it was is not what it is yeah but i would love that even once oh yeah that because i i refer a
01:33:05 ◼ ► a lot to how and when i'm writing articles i'll say you know most macs that are sold their laptops
01:33:11 ◼ ► and i used to be able to quote the number i used to be able to see two-thirds of mac sold their
01:33:16 ◼ ► laptops and then it was three-quarters of mac sold their laptops what is it now i don't know
01:33:20 ◼ ► percent eighty percent eighty percent ninety percent i just don't know so that would be that
01:33:24 ◼ ► would be a fun if i had one fact to get it would be like why don't you give me the last year
01:33:28 ◼ ► mac sales desktop versus laptop percentage wise um that would be interesting and isaac wants to know
01:33:36 ◼ ► uh i'm curious what photo settings you're using on your iphone i've been shooting in pro raw 48
01:33:42 ◼ ► megapixel for a while but i'm not convinced it's worth the massive file size i'll just say isaac if
01:33:47 ◼ ► you're asking that question then no you shouldn't be doing that yeah right like because that particular
01:33:52 ◼ ► setting the pro raw 48 megapixels for a very specific type of customer yeah unless you're i think if you're
01:33:57 ◼ ► asking that question you're not that customer unless you're shooting and then going into something like
01:34:01 ◼ ► lightroom and doing a bunch of edits and even then i'd only do it when i was shooting for the purpose
01:34:06 ◼ ► of going into lightroom otherwise i would go back to the they make a really nice uh binned uh version
01:34:14 ◼ ► that is you know 12 or 24 megapixels that is high efficiency image yeah capture 24 megapixel that is the
01:34:24 ◼ ► standard and that is what i use there are times when i will flip it over to the 48 and do something
01:34:30 ◼ ► specific or what i'll actually do is open hell i didn't do it there because i have that set up to
01:34:34 ◼ ► take pictures in that way so i'm not messing with my camera stuff but no i i think if you if you're
01:34:40 ◼ ► asking just use the the default that apple recommends because it is going to get you probably more reliable
01:34:47 ◼ ► photos that you're going to be able to more easily use to do what you want with even though you don't
01:34:52 ◼ ► don't have the flexibility of raw but that's a lot of effort i think i wonder if maybe your images
01:34:57 ◼ ► might be worse like if you're just like taking a photo no i think maybe the pro raw they they they
01:35:03 ◼ ► generate they've done all the color and all that kind of stuff a standby one but yeah it's overkill
01:35:08 ◼ ► for almost everybody i agree uh if you'd like to send in a question for us to answer in a future
01:35:13 ◼ ► episode of the show just go to upgrade feedback dot com you can also send us in your follow-up and your
01:35:18 ◼ ► and uh feedback questions or that kind of stuff we didn't talk about any of the 26.1 or 0.2 stuff
01:35:24 ◼ ► this week ran out of time um but i would like to look about it next week so if you have thoughts on
01:35:29 ◼ ► 26.1 26.2 i didn't install any of the betas because i was planning an international trip a little
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