00:00:00 ◼ ► from relay this is connected episode 588 the show is brought to you by surf shark and century i'm your keynote chairman federico reticci and i'm joined today by annual chairman steven hackett hello steven and happy birthday thank you uh thank you for holding down the fort last week when i was sick i'm glad to be back i enjoyed the show
00:00:29 ◼ ► um i am the annual chairman all year it's pretty cool and you're the keynote chairman for the foreseeable future and we are joined by someone who is neither of those things mike is here the meat is underneath both slices of bread this week you know you gotta stop at some point with this no man i mean i've done all three scenarios right so they're all done now so the meat has been in the middle the meat has been on top and now the meat is underneath who knows where we go next week maybe there's no meat maybe
00:00:59 ◼ ► we're vegan next week who knows we'll find out if you're on vacation yeah i don't know maybe maybe i'll be like just a piece of tofu next week yeah i'm a slice of lettuce baby in between these two pieces of bread we'll find out wow yeah uh it is birthday week at relay hq mine was yesterday i'm 27 and uh mike's mike's is saturday and he's going to be 42 sure
00:01:29 ◼ ► we can go with that we can go with that that's not how the number worked so steven and i just had a like a like just like a boring business call about insurance uh earlier today and there was just lots of reminders of steven's age which was just really fun for me i was just texting him the whole way through the meet and reminding him how old he is
00:01:48 ◼ ► yeah steven turned 40 last week but this week yesterday or last week 28th you know who knows at some point recently steven turned 40 years old congratulations steven you did it thank you you made it i did does it feel good it feels weird
00:02:03 ◼ ► i've really i don't think i'm having a midlife crisis by any stretch of the imagination but i've just thought a lot about you did that ages ago
00:02:10 ◼ ► you remember you bought 13 i max yeah i think that was it man i think you did it already look do i look at facebook marketplace every night for an old toyota i can rebuild in my spare time
00:02:25 ◼ ► the crisis is like you have to do something we don't expect you to do and that is something i would expect you to do
00:02:32 ◼ ► switching to linux for a year even that like all of these things like i i don't know what your midlife
00:02:38 ◼ ► crisis would be i think you have lived midlife crisis for a long time maybe maybe uh but yes happy birthday
00:02:45 ◼ ► to you happy birthday to me happy birthday to you federico sure you're early i mean why would we not wish him
00:02:53 ◼ ► it too you know what i mean you just bank it for later on birthdays are a social construct man
00:02:59 ◼ ► so it's fine i'll take it i'll take it yeah does anyone really believe in birthdays i mean how can
00:03:06 ◼ ► like if you think about it okay are you ready to have your mind blown by me if you think about it
00:03:12 ◼ ► the fact that your birthday exists the only guarantee that your birthday is your birthday
00:03:19 ◼ ► are your parents telling you that it was your birthday because you don't remember the day that you were born
00:03:24 ◼ ► yeah right i mean there is paperwork i was gonna say there's definitely paperwork when you have a
00:03:29 ◼ ► child yeah do you trust paperwork do you trust the government you know with your birthday this is a
00:03:35 ◼ ► great point we just we just talked about all of that i'm just saying i'm just saying it's predicated
00:03:40 ◼ ► upon you know you trusting your parents and some paperwork apparently okay sure yeah like that can't
00:03:46 ◼ ► be forged yeah you know right right i mean exactly so it is funny so um we're basically a month away
00:03:57 ◼ ► from sophia's first birthday unbelievably uh and i'm already realizing that i'm just not gonna get
00:04:03 ◼ ► birthdays anymore really like you know i'm gonna have a birthday but like no no one's talking about
00:04:07 ◼ ► nobody cares about you anymore yeah everyone in my family is like sophia's birthday is coming up so
00:04:13 ◼ ► um but that's fine by me if i'm being honest yeah i much prefer it i think most of it is i'm not
00:04:19 ◼ ► remembering i have a birthday and i'm only thinking of her birthday as well so yeah well and they're close
00:04:24 ◼ ► together you know which is nice which is nice it's expensive i feel bad for my wife um but you know
00:04:31 ◼ ► yeah that's her problem we yeah we have a string of birthdays like through the holidays
00:04:36 ◼ ► through early february and then mary's birthday so she's a few days she's like two weeks after me
00:04:41 ◼ ► and then it's valentine's day a few days later and so there's like a string of stuff i start shopping
00:04:46 ◼ ► for gifts in the fall because i got to space them out that's expensive bad times you want to know what i
00:04:52 ◼ ► got got her for her birthday she's never yeah she probably doesn't she doesn't have a pair of
00:04:56 ◼ ► power beats that's the only thing i assume that your wife wants i had uh jason snell send me the link
00:05:02 ◼ ► to the tube man because she's always wanted one and i got her a few years ago a foot tall one that
00:05:08 ◼ ► goes on a desk she's got a full-blown tube man in the attic you gotta get her like for the first year
00:05:15 ◼ ► of tube man all of the gifts you buy her can be different tube men yeah they have a lot so like
00:05:20 ◼ ► valentine's day tube man halloween tube man yeah you can do the whole thing i will say i got really
00:05:26 ◼ ► underwhelmed and then very overwhelmed because you said you know what i got my wife i asked jason
00:05:32 ◼ ► it's like whatever that is is not good you know like what is jason snell gonna recommend for your
00:05:37 ◼ ► wife but turns out it was a good gift in the end so i i went on a real journey he's the he's the tube
00:05:42 ◼ ► man he's the tube man guy i got a guy he's the tube man man tube man man uh we got some follow-up
00:05:50 ◼ ► yeah mike this one is for you do you want to take this yeah abdullah wrote in and says if tim cook
00:05:55 ◼ ► retires and john tannis became ceo would mike record an emergency episode of upgrade or connected what
00:06:00 ◼ ► about steven and federico so the the current plan me and jason have this is that we will just get to
00:06:08 ◼ ► record it immediately right because that is a very upgrade thing to do but my hope would be
00:06:15 ◼ ► loads of people could call in and then we could just we could simul release that episode it'd go
00:06:20 ◼ ► everywhere you know put it in all the feeds put on the pen addict let's get going let's get it going
00:06:27 ◼ ► yeah that that's what i want to do too like yeah i'm excited about the possibility of it although i do
00:06:32 ◼ ► fear that by the time it's happened we've already had every possible conversation so there'll be nothing
00:06:37 ◼ ► to talk about and he does it but we'll see you know we'll see and i think it's like you know
00:06:42 ◼ ► if someone calls in on their phone like it could sound bad right it's just yeah yeah all hands on deck
00:06:49 ◼ ► oh yeah it'd be great i already feel bad for jim yeah me too um federico this is something that i've
00:06:55 ◼ ► wanted to ask you when we've talked about this before but do you think or do you know if otj has
00:07:01 ◼ ► pre-written an article about tim cook stepping down uh he does not have one because i know otj
00:07:07 ◼ ► sometimes pre-writes things to a degree yeah yeah obituaries yeah tk tk tk tk tk tk tk no he does not
00:07:16 ◼ ► have one although uh you just gave me a good idea yeah yeah get on it there should be one
00:07:34 ◼ ► look new decade of this you guys buckle up yeah yeah uh federico can you tell us about clodbot
00:07:42 ◼ ► and anthropic sure um so what happened is that the clodbot um that uh we talked about last week that
00:07:51 ◼ ► i wrote about on max stories um it got so popular uh that obviously you know good good old anthropic
00:08:00 ◼ ► got in touch with the developer peter steinberger and uh and asked for a name change due to trademark
00:08:08 ◼ ► issues uh i mean obviously uh the whole the entire project started uh with a you know with a with a
00:08:15 ◼ ► similar sounding name to claude the anthropic uh lm and that was the whole point right that peter
00:08:22 ◼ ► steinberger put together this little gateway project on a mac to be able to talk to claude via telegram
00:08:29 ◼ ► or whatsapp and obviously the product that the project got so popular that it's not surprising i guess
00:08:35 ◼ ► that anthropic got in touch and asked for you know to pick a different name i don't know if there was a
00:08:40 ◼ ► i don't know if there was a seasoned deceased involved or anything like that but they did and so here's
00:08:47 ◼ ► here's the part that i don't like personally uh this was a very rushed thing that peter and the community
00:08:54 ◼ ► had to put together they landed on this name that i am personally not a fan of because i i don't know
00:09:03 ◼ ► maybe it's not because i'm not an english native speaker i find it kind of gross yeah the word
00:09:11 ◼ ► it's called malt bot yeah so there's there's a bunch of problems with this right from my perspective
00:09:17 ◼ ► one that is that that word has a bad mouth feel malt bot it's like it reminds me it reminds me of mold
00:09:27 ◼ ► also yes but also just molting the idea of like i'm assuming it's like a lobster molting it's like they're just
00:09:34 ◼ ► shedding their shedding their skin terrible terrible terrible terrible name you know it's funny the whole time we were
00:09:41 ◼ ► talking about this last week i meant to bring it up like the name but just never i just didn't look like this is
00:09:47 ◼ ► obviously a problem like calling it claude bot like yeah that that isn't it like you it's an issue but also
00:09:54 ◼ ► it is so funny every time an llm company complains about ip infringement there's irony it is it is never
00:10:03 ◼ ► not funny when that happens it is a hilarious thing to to like these companies that will be in court one week
00:10:11 ◼ ► saying like haha we scanned a bunch of books but we bought them so it's okay and then the next week
00:10:19 ◼ ► it's like yeah but you stole our thing though so don't do that it's very funny it's very it's just like
00:10:24 ◼ ► a very very ironic thing but yeah i'm i'm not surprised i didn't like claude bot anyway uh but
00:10:32 ◼ ► malt bot is so much worse it's so much worse you know what pia just give it another go you know like
00:10:38 ◼ ► why not just give it another go you know what yes just give it another go it was obviously i think i
00:10:43 ◼ ► saw that peter was like tweeting look i was sleep deprived and i got a letter from anthropic what was
00:10:49 ◼ ► i supposed to do i ran a quick poll in discord and we went for the meme name and look i get it
00:10:55 ◼ ► so it's always look i love like people in discords you know they're awesome never give them the
00:11:00 ◼ ► opportunity to name your thing like let's say you end up with boating mc boatface that's how that happens
00:11:05 ◼ ► or mold or mold bot in this case mold bot mold bot mold bot so anyway uh i gotta tell you i haven't
00:11:15 ◼ ► had an article get so popular in a long time yeah uh more popular than my ios reviews more popular
00:11:23 ◼ ► oh my god really yeah man no no it's crazy i didn't know it's at that level no no it's it's been
00:11:30 ◼ ► absolutely wild um it was everywhere uh you know uh you gotta hand it to to the place it was
00:11:37 ◼ ► incredibly popular in terms of traffic from twitter or x whatever you want to call it uh google search
00:11:44 ◼ ► i guess people searching for instructions on how to set it up it was linked in a bunch of this like
00:11:55 ◼ ► it's really just doubling down i saw you on the verge i saw that on the verge yeah um because you've been
00:12:03 ◼ ► like wherever you think of yourself or not i think you have now just been like you are the person who
00:12:09 ◼ ► knows you know it's like federico he knows molt bot you know like he's that guy it's like i'm getting
00:12:15 ◼ ► i'm getting questions from people like hey how do i set it up and i'm like dude i i i half know
00:12:20 ◼ ► myself how to set it up and debug the thing but you're the guy you're the guy i'm the guy but
00:12:25 ◼ ► because of this this project got so popular and mike and i spoke about this last week it's it's very
00:12:34 ◼ ► much like a hacker project you you gotta know what you're doing when you set this up and unfortunately
00:12:38 ◼ ► something that happened online is that a bunch of people um set up uh cloud bot or multiple i just
00:12:46 ◼ ► want i don't want to say mold bot i'm just gonna say cloud bot um they set it up hang on anthropics
00:12:51 ◼ ► at my door let me go oh no a bunch of people set up cloud bot on a vps so like on a server online
00:13:00 ◼ ► instead of their personal local computers and they completely disregarded any um reasonable security
00:13:07 ◼ ► practices and so there were uh reports of like this self-proclaimed some legit security researchers
00:13:15 ◼ ► just scanning these online directories of of um cloud bot instances running in the cloud with open gateways
00:13:23 ◼ ► uh so they would they could basically hack those people and connect to their cloud bots and their personal data
00:13:29 ◼ ► and so there was that concern but also because my article got so popular and and people obviously
00:13:37 ◼ ► know who i am and know my email address because my email address is public that i got very concerned
00:13:44 ◼ ► about um prompt injection attacks oh no and so i can never see it coming i made the call of
00:13:55 ◼ ► disconnecting my cloud bot from two integrations yeah specifically the google calendar and the gmail
00:14:02 ◼ ► one because like just people sending you emails and like this is your bank account yeah
00:14:08 ◼ ► it's like instruction instructions hidden in in the main body text of a gmail and i had my cloud bot
00:14:18 ◼ ► like scanning my gmail every morning for important emails and like imagine if in one of those emails was
00:14:24 ◼ ► like hidden instructions you know uh i might just start emailing you important give me yeah well it's
00:14:31 ◼ ► it's disconnected now it's disconnected now but for real the fear like prompting prompt injection attacks
00:14:39 ◼ ► and data exfiltration attacks they are not a solved problem for llms at all and maybe then they will
00:14:47 ◼ ► it will never be right now we only know that the only model that does not solve this but is better
00:14:55 ◼ ► actually much better than the other ones is cloud opus 4.5 but it's better than the other ones does not solve the
00:15:03 ◼ ► problem so uh because of the visibility of this article and the popularity of the project i had to turn off those two
00:15:11 ◼ ► integrations because the the attack surface in that case is just it's beyond my control right if somebody
00:15:17 ◼ ► sends me an email with some hidden instructions i cannot control that and my bot is scanning my email
00:15:22 ◼ ► so i turned it off and i yeah yeah well that is a i mean uh i will say like good thinking right
00:15:32 ◼ ► that you yeah that you thought to do that because yeah you could have and at that point it was the article
00:15:37 ◼ ► became so popular someone doesn't even need to know you to want to give it a go yep yep and uh yeah and
00:15:45 ◼ ► you know and it kind of it kind of sucks because it was really useful to have that sort of a agent
00:15:50 ◼ ► running every morning scanning my email scanning my calendar and stuff like that but it's a it's a risk
00:15:55 ◼ ► and i don't want to take that risk and it highlights i so i think what's going to happen here
00:16:00 ◼ ► uh i'm gonna make you some predictions if you don't mind i think obviously this cloud bot project got so popular
00:16:08 ◼ ► uh i just saw right now there's a blog post on cloudflare they created something called
00:16:15 ◼ ► jeez mold worker so cloudflare cloudflare is launching a service we've gone too far we've gone too far now
00:16:24 ◼ ► hear me out cloudflare is launching a service to self-host moldbot in a sandbox on cloudflare
00:16:33 ◼ ► this is how this thing is so popular like it's so popular that cloudflare is launching a managed
00:16:40 ◼ ► service to install cloud uh cloudbot so we're gonna see more of these things like we're gonna see
00:16:47 ◼ ► consultants offering you to set up cloudbot for you we're gonna see companies offer to uh like launching
00:16:56 ◼ ► managed installations of secure cloudbot instances but also what we're gonna see i think
00:17:03 ◼ ► this project um i think is the perfect response to what mike and i discussed last week and we made fun
00:17:11 ◼ ► of the capability overhang that open ai talked about like there is obviously a hunger for these llms to
00:17:21 ◼ ► be more useful right and to be more i don't know actionable or proactive um so what's gonna happen i think
00:17:28 ◼ ► we're gonna see more uh more uh copycats is not the right word but like i think we're gonna see
00:17:32 ◼ ► more products along these lines that live in a sandbox because that's right now that's the only way to make
00:17:39 ◼ ► it secure uh but that also makes me wonder how much of the utility of cloudbot is actually predicated upon
00:17:48 ◼ ► the fact that it's running on your computer and it's doing stuff for you with your apps and your data is
00:17:54 ◼ ► there any way to solve that because like i can use cloud with a vm sandbox in the cloud app right now
00:18:01 ◼ ► and it's not as useful as cloudbot because it's a sandbox without my data so i don't know how this can be
00:18:08 ◼ ► fixed in any way this product specifically in the way that it is engineered makes it particularly difficult
00:18:15 ◼ ► even in the sense of like the way that you communicate with it right that you are using
00:18:20 ◼ ► third-party chat interfaces to talk to this makes to me it feels like another risk area right like you've
00:18:30 ◼ ► got to be like what if some i don't know but what if somebody sends you a an iMessage or something that is
00:18:35 ◼ ► corrupted right we know that's a thing that can happen it's why apple built that um that like advanced
00:18:42 ◼ ► protection mode or whatever it's called for journalists right because these are the kinds
00:18:46 ◼ ► of things that become an issue yeah um i would like to make a quick very quick prediction um within a
00:18:52 ◼ ► month there is a series a funding round for mobile yeah yeah there's no way people aren't talking to
00:19:02 ◼ ► steinberg about investment now because it's just become too popular like in such a short space of time
00:19:08 ◼ ► like if you're if you're a vc firm you're like yeah okay let's go for it like this guy's built
00:19:13 ◼ ► something that's interesting uh let's give them some money yeah some personal news no i'm just kidding
00:19:19 ◼ ► okay uh i would invest in mac minis instead because everything i saw on social media last week about
00:19:26 ◼ ► your article or about moltbot in general was like i bought an m4 mac mini at costco to run ai it's like
00:19:32 ◼ ► this it's having a moment man i should have put i should have put an affiliate link to a mac mini
00:19:37 ◼ ► dude and i did not and i did not and i'm stupid for not doing it that would have ripped you it's so
00:19:45 ◼ ► much money yeah sorry john i forgot to do it uh yeah it's uh yeah it's anyway i hope they come up
00:19:53 ◼ ► with a different name man because malt bot malt bot malt bot i mean this is like something that
00:20:01 ◼ ► clearly needs to be productized right yes because it's you know it just it just doesn't work for
00:20:09 ◼ ► people right like it's too complicated this is again why i think that i expect to see some kind of
00:20:15 ◼ ► investment so they can start to build a product out of this rather than the way that it is currently
00:20:32 ◼ ► this episode of connected is brought to you by surf shark secure your privacy with surf shark today
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00:22:20 ◼ ► big news air tags too they're here okay do air tags tags most tags most tags look do not put an air
00:22:32 ◼ ► tag on a lobster okay don't do it that's cruel they'll cut it off they won't bother them was that a claw
00:22:38 ◼ ► sound though that was that yeah what's that yeah it's the claw cutting off the air tag it'll go right
00:22:44 ◼ ► through a piece of fine woven no problem yeah we're going to get to fine woven i have some questions
00:22:49 ◼ ► uh otj wrote this up over at mac stories uh it is the same form factor but basically everything inside
00:22:58 ◼ ► seems better so it comes with the second gen ultra wideband chip that's the one that's in the iphone 17
00:23:05 ◼ ► and air and the watch ultra 3 so it's brand bright the second gen is limited number of devices but
00:23:13 ◼ ► that'll grow over time of course um improve bluetooth so it can detect uh from 50 further
00:23:40 ◼ ► uh sorry steven that's important news uh 50 improved bluetooth range 50 louder speaker so
00:23:49 ◼ ► it can be heard roughly twice the distance away um and the chime that that speaker makes is new so
00:24:01 ◼ ► i'm making it more of a unique sound um and it adds april apple watch precision finding so that's the when
00:24:10 ◼ ► you get close you get the arrow like on your phone uh that will work on the series 9 and later and the
00:24:15 ◼ ► ultra 2 and later and it does all this requires 26.2.1 uh which rolled out the other day
00:24:24 ◼ ► uh like i said same design same price 29 for a single 99 for a four pack uh my advice for a long
00:24:33 ◼ ► time has been don't pay full price for air tags because someone always has them on sale
00:24:38 ◼ ► i think it will take a while for the air tags 2 to be that way but if you don't have a new device you
00:24:44 ◼ ► don't care about this stuff i would imagine at least for a short period of time you can find original air
00:24:48 ◼ ► tags pretty steeply discounted is this product like apple they're just selling this one they're not
00:24:55 ◼ ► keeping the old one that's my understanding yeah if you go to the website i think it's just the new ones
00:25:01 ◼ ► yeah they don't even like this is just called it it's like this isn't like air tag 2 like on the
00:25:05 ◼ ► website right now like yeah it's just like this is just what you get okay yeah this is what you get
00:25:10 ◼ ► and on the uh you know air tags are kind of a weird thing uh they are under accessories i think
00:25:17 ◼ ► no where are they on the website it's under accessories accessories and they like before apple
00:25:24 ◼ ► sells a couple of things where you can attach these to keychains uh fine woven lives on here in
00:25:30 ◼ ► the air tag case uh it's 35 bucks or for four or five choose between five different colors um i use
00:25:38 ◼ ► one by belkin which is like a plastic thing that snaps together and goes on a metal key ring and i've
00:25:43 ◼ ► had it the whole time since like the original air tags and it's been great um but yeah so we're all
00:25:50 ◼ ► big air tag people i believe i got a bunch i know mike has a bunch yeah federico has them on his lobsters
00:25:58 ◼ ► yep um are we rushing out to upgrade no what i'm sad about so i have my my original air tag in one of
00:26:08 ◼ ► the leather things and it is just beat to hell it looks great and like and and i'm sad that they don't
00:26:14 ◼ ► make the leather thing anymore um they they're all fine woven at some point i'll guess if whenever i need
00:26:22 ◼ ► to replace them i'm sure some company is selling some kind of leather keychain or whatever that that
00:26:27 ◼ ► i would be able to buy to put one of these in um but i really do like the one that apple makes um but i
00:26:33 ◼ ► just i mean i don't know maybe the fine woven is fine in this but like i just i'm not i'm not i'm not a
00:26:39 ◼ ► big fan i do like that i have a green one though it's a nice green one um yeah i just just to me like
00:26:44 ◼ ► like this seems like a great uh upgrade and like the next time i need air tags great i'll i'll have
00:26:50 ◼ ► to make some decisions about what the new ones go on and like kind of cycle them through and stuff but
00:26:56 ◼ ► all of the the the upgrades are good but there's nothing where i'm like ah i need that like they're
00:27:03 ◼ ► none of these none of the things that they're listing are like oh i've had this problem with
00:27:09 ◼ ► my air tags so i should get the new one like i've never you know like there are all these things when
00:27:16 ◼ ► you use them of like oh you know like you sometimes it goes out of bluetooth range for a while you just
00:27:20 ◼ ► wait for it to show up again you know i i don't know that the times where i can't find a like a
00:27:26 ◼ ► suitcase in an airport is because of the range or just because like it doesn't matter if it has twice
00:27:30 ◼ ► the range it's still like too locked away somewhere that you'd never find it or whatever you know what
00:27:35 ◼ ► the issues that i have i don't know would be solved by these updates but it is a nice suite of updates
00:27:48 ◼ ► mainly to replace the air tag that i use on my keys and my wife uses on hers i feel like
00:27:53 ◼ ► those are the ones that we try to ping the most often and um so i ordered those i got those engraved
00:28:00 ◼ ► so one has you know i got her one with m on it mine has an s on it i've never done engraved air
00:28:04 ◼ ► tags why are you losing your keys so much it's all the time man you know you just sit down somewhere
00:28:10 ◼ ► your hands are full my keys go in the same place mike they're always in the same place it's not
00:28:17 ◼ ► yeah that's the problem okay who is who's the problem please let me know the other adult in
00:28:22 ◼ ► the household with keys okay here's my second question again maybe this is just a thing i don't
00:28:27 ◼ ► understand why is why is mary using your keys mary has her own keys okay well so she doesn't carry a
00:28:33 ◼ ► truck key and sometimes she drives the truck so she'll take my keys okay and then they're just gone
00:28:38 ◼ ► yeah okay she also loses her own keys sometimes um so i did a four pack you know and i figured the
00:28:47 ◼ ► other two maybe i put like in my backpack or you know other ones that we use often i actually have
00:28:51 ◼ ► an air tag in both cars maybe i swap out the car ones for these stronger ones um but yeah like you
00:28:57 ◼ ► like my suitcases all the other ones i got i'll just replace them as i need to but i have never had
00:29:03 ◼ ► an air tag die like i mean i've had to replace batteries but yeah they seem remarkably tough like
00:29:08 ◼ ► the ones on my keys like the back of it the metal side i mean it looks like i ran it through a like
00:29:14 ◼ ► an industrial sander right it's totally destroyed there's no engraving left on mine really yeah it's
00:29:19 ◼ ► gone the the engravings are completely gone like the apple engraving the the engraving on the other
00:29:25 ◼ ► side of my initials on it that's still there but like all of the regulatory markings and stuff just
00:29:29 ◼ ► a hundred percent disappeared yeah it's got i think we said this when it came out it's got the ipod vibe
00:29:35 ◼ ► right like the back of your ipod the metal will get all scratched up and the first scratch really hurt
00:29:40 ◼ ► but the hundredth scratch didn't because it looked cool you know what i mean like it there's a
00:29:45 ◼ ► a rubicon that that it passes in the patina is cool but yeah air tags patina rubicon the patina
00:29:53 ◼ ► rubicon fader could you have a loser case no i never lose anything whoa no nothing i've never lost
00:30:03 ◼ ► anything in my life no for real do you use air tags yeah okay but you never lose anything no no you
00:30:09 ◼ ► lost an air tag i remember that story and a heart rate monitor then i then i found it again and the
00:30:15 ◼ ► and a heart rate monitor was stolen from me so i have when something is stolen you have still
00:30:21 ◼ ► always also lost it you know i mean no no kind of yes no i have been a victim of uh grand larceny
00:30:30 ◼ ► in my life that's true but i have i have never yeah i have never lost anything though no remember when
00:30:37 ◼ ► the people broke into the beach place yes we talked about it live on the show yeah you lost like an axe or
00:30:45 ◼ ► something barbecue equipment yeah what about sylvia is she an air tag person does she lose things
00:30:50 ◼ ► what who sylvia oh no oh no no no no sylvia i mean no sylvia is like even it's like the the better
00:31:00 ◼ ► version of me she's like the pro max version of me when it comes to not losing things federico pro max
00:31:07 ◼ ► yeah has sylvia has sylvia ever been subject to grand larceny uh no no no no yeah i'm the unlucky one
00:31:22 ◼ ► i'm gonna read some quotes to you from an article on the verge oh no uh about camo so camo is a an app for
00:31:34 ◼ ► iphone and the mac that allows you to use your iphone's camera as a webcam on your mac um
00:31:40 ◼ ► obviously we have continuity camera we're going to get to that but camo has a bunch of other features
00:31:45 ◼ ► like i i use uh camo if i'm recording video because you can get like much higher quality video if you use
00:31:52 ◼ ► um that both the apps open at the same time so camo is suing apple uh for sherlocking them um and i'm
00:32:01 ◼ ► i'm going to read some quotes from jp is at the verge camo was used by thousands of apple employees
00:32:05 ◼ ► across all divisions of the company the lawsuit says at first apple encouraged reincubate to
00:32:11 ◼ ► increase its investment in camo but when apple recognized that camo was a threat it took steps
00:32:16 ◼ ► not only to copy it thereby infringing reincubates patents but also to undermine camo's functionality
00:32:27 ◼ ► reincubate ceo aiden fitzpatrick says in a blog post that apple had made quote all sorts of promises
00:32:34 ◼ ► about how they could help with the app yet once we'd proven it could be done and users loved it
00:32:39 ◼ ► they took it and built our feature into billions of products while shutting us out and preventing
00:32:44 ◼ ► additional interop interoperability would have i think interoperability would have been a fine thing
00:32:49 ◼ ► to say uh we could provide to the ecosystem says fitzpatrick so for context continuity camera shipped
00:32:56 ◼ ► two years after camo uh apple's statement on this is we strongly disagree with the allegations and
00:33:03 ◼ ► believe the lawsuit is baseless apple competes fairly while respecting the intellectual property rights of
00:33:09 ◼ ► others and these camera features were developed internally by apple engineers look now you can
00:33:15 ◼ ► have your own feelings about this lawsuit and about sherlocking you know what's fair play and what's not
00:33:21 ◼ ► i will not believe for a moment for a second that the people who came up with continuity camera did
00:33:27 ◼ ► not get the idea from camo i would not believe it for a second like to say that uh we compete fairly
00:33:35 ◼ ► while respecting the intellectual property rights of of others these camera features developed in turn
00:33:40 ◼ ► yeah you develop them internally after seeing camo right like you you so it's like yes you did develop
00:33:47 ◼ ► it but you were obviously had seen this software like i just can't imagine a scenario where apple did
00:33:57 ◼ ► this without having seen camo because as fitzpatrick points out of like apple puts web cams in their
00:34:03 ◼ ► computers like make the webcams better why do you have to do this right so yeah i i find this interesting
00:34:11 ◼ ► i don't think camo's gonna win maybe they can win on a patent thing i don't know what their patterns are
00:34:15 ◼ ► like um i guess it all comes down to discovery like if they can get some discovery like i genuinely
00:34:21 ◼ ► think you would be able to find messages between engineers and designers talking about camo while
00:34:26 ◼ ► developing this feature because i just don't imagine a world in which that didn't happen and i'm
00:34:31 ◼ ► not saying that people are acting like maliciously or whatever but like it it was two years after
00:34:39 ◼ ► right like you you've seen this and yeah i i i'm interested in seeing how this one plays out to be
00:34:46 ◼ ► honest i am blown away that the term sherlocking is in a legal document yeah that's incredible yeah i mean
00:34:56 ◼ ► and and and on his own blog post uh fitzpatrick writes about you know people at apple uh showing
00:35:04 ◼ ► contrition for copying their their feature um you know they're very careful not to commit to much in
00:35:12 ◼ ► writing which is you know these people at big companies know that um but yeah it's it's a it's a
00:35:18 ◼ ► it's a bummer to see it well not in slack they don't that's true right uh yeah this is and that's the
00:35:26 ◼ ► thing that i would be interested in seeing um if they can get that kind of stuff yeah the discovery could
00:35:31 ◼ ► be pretty spicy provided it will happen i don't know what scenarios have to occur to get that kind of
00:35:37 ◼ ► process to play out like from a from a legal perspective um but yeah i hope that apple settle
00:35:43 ◼ ► with them and uh help them out yeah it's it may be in apple's best interest to i i think in general
00:35:53 ◼ ► surely not every court and every judge but in general it feels like um a lot of the legal system
00:36:02 ◼ ► looks at tech companies through an antitrust anti-competitive lens this certainly doesn't look
00:36:08 ◼ ► good for apple through that lens you know and in this in the i don't have the quote in front of me but
00:36:13 ◼ ► in the blog post fitzpatrick writes about this is this is not just about camo right this is about
00:36:18 ◼ ► apple and its relationship with developers and you know the core question is should apple be restrained
00:36:24 ◼ ► from doing anything third-party developers do like that doesn't seem like the answer but also this feels
00:36:30 ◼ ► like it may be over the line with what happened with camo and continuity camera so the legal system
00:36:36 ◼ ► will sort that out and it may not be in a way that apple likes and so i i do think there was incentive
00:36:42 ◼ ► for apple to settle if camo is willing i think if if they can prove the claim that thousands of apple
00:36:50 ◼ ► employees were using it like i think that is grounds to be like well this ain't right you know but like
00:36:57 ◼ ► the idea of apple apple shell locking stuff inherently i don't consider to be a problem
00:37:05 ◼ ► like in in like it's like a blanket thing because you know we've spoken about it time and time again
00:37:10 ◼ ► there are there are endless stories of um developers that found success even after this kind of stuff
00:37:16 ◼ ► happened to them but this one is is is rough like the need for camo decreases massively when continuity
00:37:24 ◼ ► camera exists um especially because you can do it wirelessly and stuff like that right i think actually
00:37:30 ◼ ► camo has has wires but anyway you can do it without having to open an app right which is like it's super
00:37:42 ◼ ► much harder to be able to argue that there was no uh quote-unquote inspiration between the two
00:37:50 ◼ ► product or two projects yeah um the the first question that came to mind for me when i saw this news break
00:37:58 ◼ ► the other day was like why didn't apple just buy camo like yeah i know apple's not they're they are more
00:38:07 ◼ ► likely to buy companies now than i think they have been in the past but for a team like this like i
00:38:13 ◼ ► don't know how big camo is in terms of revenue but it's a drop in the bucket compared to apple you know
00:38:19 ◼ ► like it why don't just go make those people and a good offer and bring it in-house and you rebrand
00:38:27 ◼ ► it and tweak it the way you want right that's very common with tech companies right they buy a company
00:38:32 ◼ ► and their whole thing becomes a feature of something else and like then you avoid all of this like if
00:38:36 ◼ ► you're going to do something so close to what a third-party developer is doing it just seems
00:38:43 ◼ ► to me that it's bonkers that that's not on the table um and maybe it was right and maybe apple shot
00:38:48 ◼ ► it down maybe that'll come out discovery but it is the my just initial reaction was like why
00:38:54 ◼ ► you just go buy them yeah i mean maybe they ask too much money you know like we don't know we don't
00:39:00 ◼ ► know maybe the conversations like that did happen like there's no we can't know that part yeah yeah
00:39:07 ◼ ► it's it's an interesting story federico what are your thoughts and stuff like this it's like i never
00:39:11 ◼ ► know what to think with these things legal stuff like i mean do we like you said do we really think
00:39:20 ◼ ► that apple was not familiar with camo like i don't know it we're so used to the idea that apple is
00:39:29 ◼ ► shortlocking stuff and we accept that and then when somebody is like hey no that's not cool i'm gonna
00:39:37 ◼ ► sue you i don't know i don't know i don't know i think it's gonna come down to a patent thing that's
00:39:43 ◼ ► it it's gonna come down to that um because like how can you i also i'm not a legal expert for u.s
00:39:53 ◼ ► patent law okay okay can you can you can kind of judge codify inspiration or i don't know possibly
00:40:02 ◼ ► there are uh there's there are prior cases about that but like i think it's gonna come down to the
00:40:08 ◼ ► technology and especially if if the camo folks can prove that thousands of employees were using camo
00:40:14 ◼ ► and that they have the evidence that it's based on the same tech then i think apple is gonna have to
00:40:19 ◼ ► settle quietly at some point but we'll see but i honestly don't know what to think uh and also the
00:40:24 ◼ ► idea of a startup suing apple i mean they must have the money for it right i wouldn't sue apple
00:40:33 ◼ ► you know it's expensive yeah i don't know how that kind of stuff works out but you know that
00:40:38 ◼ ► doesn't it doesn't seem doesn't seem wise or you you feel figure you get some advice which suggests to
00:40:45 ◼ ► you that you've got a decent shot at this for sure like i'm looking at their patent it's in the lawsuit
00:41:04 ◼ ► for a video conferencing is what it looks like to me and so it's like well that's like the whole thing
00:41:10 ◼ ► right like like that's that's the whole thing they got that patent so yeah but i don't know i don't
00:41:17 ◼ ► i don't understand enough about how patents work either hmm patent system is complicated and mostly not
00:41:24 ◼ ► good i think yeah and it's funny i'm scrolling through it now right so they've got some messages
00:41:29 ◼ ► between like text messages from apple people who love it and there's also like um app of the day
00:41:38 ◼ ► screenshots in here which is like well you obviously know about it you know this is in august 2021
00:41:44 ◼ ► before continuity camera shipped apple called it called camo app of the day and it's like
00:41:50 ◼ ► stuff like that where it's like obviously apple is made up of so many people but that's not how you
00:41:56 ◼ ► look at things like this in these scenarios oh my god there's a there's a selfie with fitzpatrick
00:42:00 ◼ ► and craig fitterighi oh my god this is amazing there's so much stuff in here and but like this is the case
00:42:08 ◼ ► right where it's like well i mean i've seen camo's logo on um in in keynotes right like they've they've used
00:42:17 ◼ ► used it in those like uh logo blocks or whatever uh the vision pro app which is a hilarious thing
00:42:23 ◼ ► that exists uh is always featured in the app store on the vision pro like it gets i feel like i don't
00:42:29 ◼ ► know how this stuff works again i'm gonna say like 100 times but it feels to me like it gets harder and
00:42:33 ◼ ► harder to argue that they didn't know about it while they were developing the feature based upon the fact of
00:42:39 ◼ ► how much um yeah uh attention they were given by different parts of apple and it's interesting too
00:42:49 ◼ ► like this is a bell that can't be unrung for camo like no matter how this ends right apple settles
00:42:56 ◼ ► camo wins and gets a huge sum of money at the end of it or camo loses and they get crushed
00:43:03 ◼ ► like if camo is still in business at the end of this your relationship with apple is probably
00:43:09 ◼ ► harmed forever you're not getting another selfie with craig right no yeah and that's obviously like
00:43:14 ◼ ► a funny example right i mean but yeah but from their perspective that relationship isn't important
00:43:21 ◼ ► because for them that relationship that they had meant that their entire business got ripped off so
00:43:29 ◼ ► that like you know in that scenario do you even care about your relationship with apple like
00:43:34 ◼ ► maybe not the good relationship you had led to your business being undermined yeah it's just very
00:43:44 ◼ ► it's not so often your entire app right but we see it every year right we all have friends in
00:43:51 ◼ ► development it's like oh this feature or this corner of what i do is now built into some other app that
00:43:57 ◼ ► apple does and a lot of times you know developers say this we've said it and i think i generally believe
00:44:05 ◼ ► it like you know if if you were writing a task manager and all of a sudden reminders got good
00:44:11 ◼ ► like yeah you may you you may lose the low end of your market but that actually can free you up to go
00:44:17 ◼ ► after a different like specific market that may love your app way more and be really dependent on it like
00:44:22 ◼ ► it's not always a bad thing if apple takes a little bit of what you're doing or move into your space
00:44:36 ◼ ► camo continuity camera basically do the same thing like and it's not like they just took part of it and
00:44:44 ◼ ► that does put it in slightly different waters for me but developers worry about this every summer
00:44:49 ◼ ► right like very famously i think within our circles when i guess it was safari 5 or whatever
00:44:56 ◼ ► added reading list marco tweeted a single word tweet because he was writing instapaper at the time
00:45:02 ◼ ► right and that's kind of become a joke now amongst like indie developers in our circles but it's just uh
00:45:07 ◼ ► it's very complicated and apple's relationship with third-party developers in some ways is that a i don't
00:45:18 ◼ ► and this sort of thing that it's been lower i mean maybe like in the 90s like or they told everybody
00:45:24 ◼ ► to rewrite in coco and everyone should know but um it's pretty it's pretty rough right like on the on
00:45:31 ◼ ► the six colors apple report card that has not gotten a good grade in a long time can't wait to see the
00:45:36 ◼ ► score this this time around it's gonna be rough the deadline was before the camo thing came out i don't think this
00:45:42 ◼ ► i don't think this would have changed i don't think so either i don't think so either but like this sort
00:45:47 ◼ ► of stuff doesn't help right like if apple were interested in improving that relationship
00:45:53 ◼ ► then you do buy camo and you pay whatever they want because you're apple and you've got
00:45:59 ◼ ► literally mountains of money but doing it this way and then being sued by a small developer and like
00:46:06 ◼ ► you know apple unless they just settle right away they're going to be ugly about it and that just
00:46:11 ◼ ► doesn't do you any favors in the eyes of all the other developers and i promise you anyone in the app
00:46:17 ◼ ► store paying attention is going to watch this closely because it does affect all developers because apple could
00:46:24 ◼ ► move into your space any given year so it's just it's messy all the way around and i don't know i i really
00:46:32 ◼ ► hate this kind of stuff i think the instapaper one is a good example right that we can all relate to but
00:46:37 ◼ ► when instapaper when reading list existed there were a bunch of really later apps right like it was it
00:46:42 ◼ ► was a whole category i don't think that was the same here no it was camo was the thing that was what you
00:46:48 ◼ ► used or you used a capture card and a big camera right but like from a software perspective camo was
00:46:56 ◼ ► the one um and apple took just enough of what those features are to make camo mostly not needed for the
00:47:07 ◼ ► vast majority of people that would have been using it like yeah again it's like what i'm doing i i only
00:47:13 ◼ ► ever used camo as a way to get the maximum video quality out of my iphone which is absolutely not
00:47:20 ◼ ► what i need for zoom calls like you know which is what people were using it for right like that's what it
00:47:25 ◼ ► was used for because the cameras in the macs are bad it's like even like a funny thing that is it's so funny
00:47:32 ◼ ► that this that continuity camera even exists right it's just like a very funny thing of like oh we have to use a
00:47:38 ◼ ► a second device because the cameras on our laptops are bad um but yeah yeah it's going to be really
00:47:47 ◼ ► this episode connected is brought to you by century if you're a developer why is it important to have
00:47:57 ◼ ► insights into issues on apps you build well there's lots of good answers to that you got a customer service
00:48:02 ◼ ► angle you want people to have a good experience it's also a productivity angle for you when you can
00:48:08 ◼ ► quickly get to the root of a problem you can fix it quickly and get that bug fix out into the world
00:48:15 ◼ ► and look logs are messy trying to grip through them and line them up with traces and dashboards just to
00:48:22 ◼ ► understand one issue it's not it gang century that's s-e-n-t-r-y has logs too but they've made them
00:48:31 ◼ ► usable centuries logs are trace connected and structured so you can follow the request flow
00:48:36 ◼ ► and filter by whatever matters and because century surfaces the context right where you're debugging
00:48:43 ◼ ► the trace relevant logs errors and even the session replay all land on one timeline so you're not
00:48:50 ◼ ► trying to match timestamps across systems you're not hopping between tools front-end mobile back-end
00:48:58 ◼ ► whatever you're debugging century gives you the context you need to fix the problem and move on
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00:49:09 ◼ ► disney plus and right here at relay we use century with our own internal tools and it's been great
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00:49:46 ◼ ► there primarily um that one of the apps that they made that i expect the majority of people will be
00:49:53 ◼ ► familiar with uh is halide the really great camera app so sebastian is leaving lux and joining apple uh
00:50:00 ◼ ► specifically joining their human interface design team um dewith previously worked at apple a long time
00:50:07 ◼ ► ago um i hear this mentioned a lot that uh he was responsible for the find my app like the rich
00:50:16 ◼ ► corinthian lever of the find my app is that true or is that just something people say i think it's true
00:50:22 ◼ ► i think it's true okay you know i certainly have heard it enough to believe it it's true yeah
00:50:30 ◼ ► if it wasn't it now is you know what i mean is that one of those things um yeah it's just become a
00:50:37 ◼ ► thing uh so the lux developers have responded quote unquote to this by sharing details about their next
00:50:45 ◼ ► speak updates to halide uh which looks very impressive um but that's what that's all they have said
00:50:52 ◼ ► um which is interesting uh we're not like a spill the tea kind of podcast and i don't know these people
00:50:59 ◼ ► but it feels like i don't know i don't know if this was a thing that everybody wanted uh to happen because
00:51:07 ◼ ► usually you see like well wishes in these kinds of scenarios and i have yet to find any um
00:51:13 ◼ ► my thoughts on this is i guess there are some high level positions at apple in the design team that
00:51:22 ◼ ► need filling now uh like one reason or another you know like with anandai's departure people getting
00:51:33 ◼ ► die or people that worked with him and did does do not want to work for steven lemay or whatever
00:51:38 ◼ ► um and i was i was wondering about this like so steven lemay apparently has been there a while so
00:51:45 ◼ ► lemay is the person who's replacing alan dies like the head of the human interface design team
00:51:50 ◼ ► and i think maybe he wants to recruit some old hands like i wouldn't be surprised to see this
00:51:58 ◼ ► happen more than once putting the band back together kind of right of like you know if you if you've been
00:52:05 ◼ ► around for a long time you've probably made a lot of good relationships and then you're going out there
00:52:10 ◼ ► and bringing people in because again i i don't know enough about halide and lux but it seemed like a very
00:52:17 ◼ ► popular successful product like i i can only imagine that apple made a good enough deal
00:52:23 ◼ ► right to to tempt it with back um it's very funny to me to see how much play this has gone especially
00:52:31 ◼ ► guess where i've seen the most conversation about this boys macedon threads thread oh right they they uh
00:52:39 ◼ ► half the people love liquid glass and people hate it his post on threads has got thousands of
00:52:46 ◼ ► interactions on it like an unbelievable amount of engagement um i'm gonna go look at it now and
00:52:53 ◼ ► i'll tell you four thousand four hundred likes moses that's a lot of likes uh he has like 29 000
00:53:02 ◼ ► followers so 4 400 likes has a very good uh uh engagement right on that and people like lots of like
00:53:12 ◼ ► everyone seems excited about this um are you guys excited about this i think so i mean i i like sab
00:53:20 ◼ ► a lot um and i think the all i want to see if there's more i actually want to see if this is
00:53:28 ◼ ► just my theory does my theory hold out this is going to happen more than once yeah yeah uh because i have
00:53:36 ◼ ► seen you know over the past few months lots of designers that i respect and follow online join
00:53:42 ◼ ► i don't know anthropic or open ai like lots of them going to open ai and i want to see if this is a just
00:53:48 ◼ ► this person or if we're gonna see more announcements along these lines like i'm going back to apple or i'm
00:53:54 ◼ ► joining apple um because if that's the case then i think you're right mike that it's sort of like you know
00:54:06 ◼ ► forward-looking now design team again um so one person does not say much maybe sab just wanted to
00:54:14 ◼ ► leave the startup life and go back to apple um to be fair this is also the person who put out an
00:54:20 ◼ ► excellent essay about liquid glass before liquid glass was announced uh with arguably from the essay
00:54:28 ◼ ► a better version of liquid glass i would say uh so i don't know maybe it's just sebastian and that's it
00:54:35 ◼ ► or maybe there's more coming uh it depends it depends what what this is are we looking at just
00:54:42 ◼ ► this person wanting to work with steven lamay or lamay putting together a super team of designers again
00:54:50 ◼ ► the latter would be more exciting i am i hope that sebastian can bring his design work to the camera
00:55:01 ◼ ► app uh i'm not super thrilled over time about the camera app like the the selector to get to like
00:55:10 ◼ ► i was trying to take a slow motion video yesterday it just took me too long to get there um it's actually
00:55:17 ◼ ► reminiscent to me now of the um really bad fitness app on the apple watch yeah where like the fitness
00:55:27 ◼ ► app on the apple watch it feels like what should happen is every time you swipe it should just move
00:55:33 ◼ ► to the next thing but it just swipes forever like it like the way the interface looks and acts don't
00:55:40 ◼ ► don't correlate to me or it feels like you should be swiping through pages like like one like flip flip
00:55:46 ◼ ► flip flip instead of what happens which is you just scroll it like a regular list i'm having the same
00:55:51 ◼ ► problem with the camera app where the ui doesn't feel like it should just be a smooth like kind of
00:55:56 ◼ ► direct scroll and so it just becomes so hard to find anything uh where i would prefer if you could just
00:56:04 ◼ ► swipe one two you know anyway it took too way too long uh and i've i've really liked the design of
00:56:09 ◼ ► halide like i think it looks good i think it works good i think it's nice and clear the interactions are
00:56:14 ◼ ► really nice so my hope is maybe he's there to or will try to while he's there uh turn his hand to
00:56:23 ◼ ► cleaning some of that ui up like that would be nice um i don't think that that blog post exists that you
00:56:28 ◼ ► referenced anymore federico what they what's up i'm looking at it what oh i can't find it yeah i got
00:56:35 ◼ ► in the show notes uh thank you so much it's called physicality the new age of ui yeah oh it's on the lux
00:56:43 ◼ ► blog i was looking on his website i just yeah his stuff is sort of spread out um yeah okay yeah i'm
00:56:49 ◼ ► i'm excited to not because one person can well not because one person can like turn around the design
00:56:57 ◼ ► ship at apple but for what it signifies this is somebody who really cares and really knows about
00:57:05 ◼ ► design and how apps should look and work it's it but it's also a little bit of a bummer like
00:57:18 ◼ ► um and i just sort of like weirdly tangential to this i'm gonna miss his iphone camera reviews
00:57:24 ◼ ► like he ain't doing that when he works at apple oh they'll just get a very different vibe very
00:57:29 ◼ ► different vibe oh the best camera ever but could he be on stage introducing the next pro camera talking
00:57:35 ◼ ► about it like that that would be also interesting um you know we don't know what his role is we don't
00:57:40 ◼ ► know how how expansive it will be um and i think people will need to remember like wwc is six months away
00:57:50 ◼ ► uh five five five and a half months away 27 is not going to be radically different i don't think than 26
00:57:56 ◼ ► like this is going to take some time and it is not something like which what i think would actually
00:58:06 ◼ ► what i think would be maybe the worst thing to do is for apple to rush something at this point
00:58:10 ◼ ► to okay we're gonna back away from liquid glass we're gonna do something else i think it's better in the
00:58:17 ◼ ► long run to have liquid glass a little bit longer and get something better after it then try to shove
00:58:24 ◼ ► it to the side really quickly um and not all liquid glass is bad right like on the iphone ipad it's way
00:58:31 ◼ ► better than on the mac like tahoe is a mess and you got they have to weigh all those things they have to
00:58:36 ◼ ► make decisions about those things and that is going to take time but i'm certainly encouraged by the fact
00:58:42 ◼ ► that not only apple wanted him back but that he whatever those conversations were he felt like he
00:58:50 ◼ ► could make an impact and that it was something he wanted to do um yeah and that is exciting to me like
00:58:56 ◼ ► i would love to know what those conversations were and hopefully we'll see the fruit of this over the
00:59:01 ◼ ► coming years but um yeah it's a big move and i agree with you i think we will see more i think we will see
00:59:06 ◼ ► more high profile uh app designers ui designers that we know or that we've heard of to uh to go inside i
00:59:15 ◼ ► think i suspect apple is going to be on a hiring spree i would like them to bring in people who have had
00:59:22 ◼ ► great success outside of apple whether they ever worked there or not at creating really interesting
00:59:28 ◼ ► ui i think those are the types of people you should want right like people who have gone out and like
00:59:35 ◼ ► made some very interesting interpretations of how apps should work and try and bring those in to fill
00:59:42 ◼ ► some of the more senior positions of the design team which i do believe that there are a lot of vacancies
00:59:47 ◼ ► in i would just naturally assume that is a thing that happens over time um and or just like you know
00:59:53 ◼ ► build a new team like why not like if enough people have left now maybe it's time to to to to
01:00:01 ◼ ► completely get rid of like be happier at like moving and changing what was johnny ives hold right
01:00:12 ◼ ► because die came up that way now he's gone maybe it's time to rethink it a little bit like i don't
01:00:18 ◼ ► know who works there right but let's shake it out a little bit and and and try some new stuff and maybe
01:00:26 ◼ ► bring in some some talented people um so yeah it's it's fascinating thing to see um good luck to them
01:00:35 ◼ ► yeah yeah for sure well i think that does it for this week um thank you for joining us if you want
01:00:44 ◼ ► to find links to the stuff we spoke about they're in your podcast player and of course on the world wide
01:00:50 ◼ ► web at relay.fm connected slash five eight eight if you want to find more of us we are online you can find
01:00:59 ◼ ► mike on a bunch of other shows here at relay and of course his work at cortex brand um you can find
01:01:07 ◼ ► federico at mac stories frederico y'all having a big week you want to talk briefly about what you're
01:01:12 ◼ ► going to yeah we finally uh unified uh mac stories and club mac stories under one website which is
01:01:20 ◼ ► mac stories.net uh you no longer need to go to a separate website just to get access to your
01:01:27 ◼ ► your subscription perks um and this is part of a bigger sort of vision for for uh putting the
01:01:34 ◼ ► spotlight on mac stories because that's the website that people know that that a lot of people visit
01:01:39 ◼ ► every every week every year and uh we we over the years we we started doing so many things right with
01:01:46 ◼ ► the newsletters and the podcasts and the videos and and then multiple tiers of the club and we ended up
01:01:52 ◼ ► up with this fragmented experience which was at the time a byproduct of the fact that we couldn't
01:01:58 ◼ ► modernize the mac stories foundation that easily and so last summer after many years of you know
01:02:04 ◼ ► missteps and and you know certain certain directions that we shouldn't have followed but we finally went
01:02:11 ◼ ► back to the drawing board and we said okay fine let's first modernize mac stories even if it's not going
01:02:15 ◼ ► to look that different let's completely re-architect the site which we did and that foundation that we
01:02:21 ◼ ► launched last summer allowed us yesterday to finally bring everything back together so the club and app
01:02:27 ◼ ► stories also both app stories and app stories plus uh now live on mac stories in the podcasts page and
01:02:33 ◼ ► we haven't finished this migration right because we have other podcasts that will need to be integrated
01:02:38 ◼ ► but now that we have everything not running on wordpress not on a custom cms anymore we can provide
01:02:45 ◼ ► that sort of unified experience for you know people who just want to read mac stories for free that's
01:02:49 ◼ ► never going to change there's always going to be a blog that you can go there and see the home page with
01:02:54 ◼ ► free articles and sponsors uh but if you're a member you can get more and you can sign in directly on mac stories
01:03:01 ◼ ► you get a special club homepage for just your club stuff and now that we fully control uh you know
01:03:08 ◼ ► mac stories living on wordpress we get to ship new things faster just as i'm speaking right now uh
01:03:15 ◼ ► we should be adding already a new feature which is uh you know giving members a new type of rss feed
01:03:21 ◼ ► that we didn't have yesterday now we get to do these things very quickly so uh i am it took us a long
01:03:27 ◼ ► time to get to this point um but i'm glad that's finally done because from now on it's just going
01:03:35 ◼ ► to be new stuff right uh instead of modernizing an old foundation refactoring migrations now it's just
01:03:42 ◼ ► from now on it's just new stuff and that's exciting yeah somebody who has to uh or wants to link to your
01:03:51 ◼ ► podcasts this this would be nice like when they're all here you know like on the on the on the one page
01:03:57 ◼ ► i'll be happy about that yeah thank you yeah yeah congrats it's it's awesome i know it's been a lot
01:04:02 ◼ ► of work um and i'm sure y'all are happy to have it out in the world very much so yeah uh you can find
01:04:08 ◼ ► my writing at 512pixels.net uh and i am on mac power users here on relay on sundays check that out
01:04:16 ◼ ► like to thank our sponsors this week uh for their support of the show surf shark and century thanks to
01:04:22 ◼ ► both of them and if you want more of connected we do a longer ad free version each and every week
01:04:29 ◼ ► called connected pro there's a link in the show notes to check that out just seven bucks a month