The Talk Show

00:00:00 ◼   ► Good evening nerds, and welcome to San Jose's elegant California theater, where Daring Fireball

00:00:16 ◼   ► is pleased to present another edition of the talk show, live.

00:00:22 ◼   ► Now, please silence your devices, then get loud for your host, John Gruber.

00:00:45 ◼   ► John Gruber: Hello, I am John Gruber, welcome to the talk show live from WWDC 2026.

00:01:03 ◼   ► Thank you for coming.

00:01:04 ◼   ► Thank you everybody watching either live in Sandwich Vision with the theater app or watching

00:01:12 ◼   ► on YouTube later, whatever, but mostly to the people who are here.

00:01:16 ◼   ► Thank you!

00:01:19 ◼   ► As usual, this show would not happen without the sponsors who helped to literally make this

00:01:27 ◼   ► happen financially.

00:01:29 ◼   ► I have three of them to thank and I thank them all, they are all awesome.

00:01:33 ◼   ► First, I want to thank Details Pro.

00:01:36 ◼   ► Details Pro is a design tool for real Swift UI mockups, full-featured editor on iPhone, iPad,

00:01:44 ◼   ► Mac and Apple Vision Pro, celebrating six years on the App Store.

00:01:49 ◼   ► It is super beginner friendly.

00:01:51 ◼   ► If you are just thinking, "Hey, I would like to just tinker and do some UI design work," mock-up

00:01:57 ◼   ► and app, Details Pro is a great app for that.

00:02:01 ◼   ► It is a free version.

00:02:03 ◼   ► The free version has tons of features, you can just download it, start using it for free.

00:02:08 ◼   ► And there is, of course, a pro version with more features.

00:02:12 ◼   ► And, celebrating the talk show live at WWDC 26, they have a $26 offer for one year of Details Pro, ordinarily $60.

00:02:23 ◼   ► So, for $26, go to detailspro.app/talkshow.

00:02:33 ◼   ► Recent updates include stuff like MCP on Mac, AI coding tools can read your designs, turn them

00:02:39 ◼   ► into real apps.

00:02:40 ◼   ► So, it's not just a design tool, it is totally hooked up to the modern AI agentic way of coding.

00:02:47 ◼   ► There are new templates.

00:02:48 ◼   ► They are already working on new templates for iOS 27, and macOS 27, and we'll get to it during

00:02:56 ◼   ► the show, but the UI changes that they've made this year.

00:03:00 ◼   ► It's just basically made for people who love design and it really, really shows.

00:03:05 ◼   ► My thanks to Details Pro, detailspro.app/talkshow.

00:03:08 ◼   ► Next, Flighty.

00:03:10 ◼   ► Flighty.

00:03:11 ◼   ► Flighty has sponsored the show before.

00:03:17 ◼   ► Honest to God, I'm a big baby.

00:03:20 ◼   ► I would not fly without Flighty anymore.

00:03:22 ◼   ► It is a great app.

00:03:23 ◼   ► If you're a frequent flyer, you probably have heard of it, you should be using it.

00:03:29 ◼   ► It's an Apple Design Award winner.

00:03:32 ◼   ► If there are awards to give out to apps, Flighty has already won it.

00:03:36 ◼   ► And more importantly, I say it's awesome, so you know it's awesome.

00:03:41 ◼   ► But that's actually not even why they're sponsoring today.

00:03:44 ◼   ► Flighty has been a three-person team.

00:03:48 ◼   ► All the success they've had, they've been a three-person team all along.

00:03:51 ◼   ► But for the first time, they are growing the product team.

00:03:54 ◼   ► They are hiring one senior product designer and one senior full-stack iOS engineer.

00:04:02 ◼   ► This is truly a tiny team.

00:04:03 ◼   ► It has been three people all along to build this success.

00:04:07 ◼   ► So if you get hired, you would be the second designer on the team or the second engineer

00:04:13 ◼   ► on the team that has spent years building one of the most respected apps in the App Store,

00:04:18 ◼   ► an app people love.

00:04:19 ◼   ► And it's a great company from great people.

00:04:21 ◼   ► From what I can tell, they have team off-sites in like a villa in Italy.

00:04:26 ◼   ► This is better than the perks at Daring Fireball, I can tell you that.

00:04:31 ◼   ► So if you're thinking that sounds like my dream job because you're here at WWDC 26, you're

00:04:37 ◼   ► here at the talk show, it might be your dream job and you might be the sort of person that

00:04:41 ◼   ► they are looking for.

00:04:42 ◼   ► So learn more and apply at Flighty.com/careers.

00:04:49 ◼   ► That's Flighty.com/careers.

00:04:52 ◼   ► Third, and finally, Finalist.

00:04:59 ◼   ► Finalist is a daily planner for iPhone, iPad, Mac, and Vision Pro.

00:05:05 ◼   ► So it is built on the kind of focused, intentional day planner design from like the print world

00:05:13 ◼   ► of day planners.

00:05:15 ◼   ► And they first started sponsoring Daring Fireball on the talk show six months ago, maybe a little

00:05:22 ◼   ► bit more.

00:05:23 ◼   ► And I always try the apps that sponsor my site.

00:05:27 ◼   ► And this is one that has actually stuck.

00:05:29 ◼   ► See, here it is six, seven months later and I still have it on my first home screen.

00:05:34 ◼   ► There's literally not that many spots on the home screen.

00:05:37 ◼   ► It is an app I use every day.

00:05:39 ◼   ► The thing that really sticks for me is fundamentally, you have days in Finalist and days have things

00:05:47 ◼   ► to do.

00:05:48 ◼   ► As opposed to so many other task tracking, planning apps where you have a list of tasks and tasks

00:05:57 ◼   ► have due dates.

00:05:58 ◼   ► It's sort of an inverted way of thinking about it.

00:06:00 ◼   ► But it hooks up to things like the system reminders, your system calendars.

00:06:05 ◼   ► You don't have to drop your existing calendar app.

00:06:07 ◼   ► You don't have to drop the reminders app.

00:06:09 ◼   ► It integrates with the system like a great modern iOS Apple platform app.

00:06:15 ◼   ► It is really, really great.

00:06:18 ◼   ► Where do you go to find out more?

00:06:19 ◼   ► You go to finalist.works/talkshow.

00:06:24 ◼   ► And by going to finalist.works/talkshow.

00:06:27 ◼   ► You can try it for free.

00:06:29 ◼   ► Of course, everybody can try it for free.

00:06:31 ◼   ► But with that web page, you get six months free on the house just for being a listener of the

00:06:40 ◼   ► show or attendee of the show.

00:06:43 ◼   ► There is a lot to talk about as ever at WWDC.

00:06:50 ◼   ► I guess there is suddenly, starting last year, a bit more drama over who is actually going

00:06:55 ◼   ► going to be here with me.

00:07:02 ◼   ► Well, not surprising to me.

00:07:10 ◼   ► It is not anybody who works regularly in Cupertino, again.

00:07:17 ◼   ► And I thought last year was really a good show to talk about the fact that there is nobody

00:07:22 ◼   ► from Apple here doing this and talking about the state of Apple in general.

00:07:27 ◼   ► So I thought, let's just roll it back.

00:07:30 ◼   ► Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the stage Joanna Stern and Neelai Patel.

00:07:34 ◼   ► We're here, we're here, we're really here.

00:07:43 ◼   ► It's like, am I on this side?

00:07:48 ◼   ► I'm over here again?

00:07:50 ◼   ► Yeah, let's see.

00:07:51 ◼   ► Same seats?

00:07:52 ◼   ► Same seats.

00:07:53 ◼   ► Assigned seating.

00:07:54 ◼   ► Assigned seating.

00:07:55 ◼   ► It's nice to know we didn't completely blow it last year.

00:07:59 ◼   ► Yes.

00:08:00 ◼   ► I couldn't hear, was there like a boo, like a low, like, oh, was they renounced or no?

00:08:08 ◼   ► No, I don't think so.

00:08:09 ◼   ► Were people surprised or were people not surprised?

00:08:11 ◼   ► Oh.

00:08:12 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:08:13 ◼   ► We couldn't hear it behind the stage.

00:08:16 ◼   ► A big year for Joanna.

00:08:19 ◼   ► I might as well, before I forget, at the end of the show, Joanna is doing new things at new

00:08:24 ◼   ► things.

00:08:25 ◼   ► TheNewThings.com.

00:08:26 ◼   ► TheNewThings.com, but still here, still covering Apple.

00:08:32 ◼   ► What did you think of the keynote in general?

00:08:36 ◼   ► I was bored, but I came to realize that boredom was a good thing.

00:08:50 ◼   ► That's my short reaction.

00:08:51 ◼   ► Sure.

00:08:52 ◼   ► It was good.

00:08:53 ◼   ► It was very suspenseful.

00:08:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:08:55 ◼   ► Do you want me to do my whole riff about how Apple Sherlock's ChatCubeT?

00:08:59 ◼   ► Because I'm ready.

00:09:00 ◼   ► Not yet.

00:09:01 ◼   ► You know, so I live-blogged the keynote.

00:09:04 ◼   ► I have for years and years and years.

00:09:06 ◼   ► And my experience of this is like a fugue state.

00:09:09 ◼   ► I have to go back to my hotel room hours and hours later and actually re-watch it to know

00:09:13 ◼   ► what happened.

00:09:14 ◼   ► And so I think everybody's caught this online and I didn't see it until way later.

00:09:19 ◼   ► The actual video production was like shaky cams, blown highlights, weird audio all over

00:09:25 ◼   ► the place.

00:09:26 ◼   ► I saw speculation that they had ADR the keynote, so they had to go into a room and match their

00:09:30 ◼   ► lips moving to get the audio right afterwards, which would be incredible.

00:09:33 ◼   ► If you can leak to me whether that actually happened, that'd be great.

00:09:37 ◼   ► And then that matched the vibe on the ground where they were just desperate to show you Siri

00:09:42 ◼   ► working.

00:09:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:09:44 ◼   ► Like you would turn a corner and someone would like leap out of a bush and be like, would

00:09:46 ◼   ► you like a demo?

00:09:50 ◼   ► And there was just that element to all of it, which I thought was very unique for Apple

00:09:55 ◼   ► in the modern era.

00:09:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:09:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:09:58 ◼   ► I think two things where I felt underwhelmed, but again, in a way that was maybe something

00:10:07 ◼   ► I hadn't felt from an Apple keynote in maybe 10 years, where it was solely so focused on

00:10:13 ◼   ► the products.

00:10:14 ◼   ► There's been maybe 10 years, they started doing the produced videos during COVID.

00:10:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:10:20 ◼   ► Okay.

00:10:21 ◼   ► So six, seven years where it felt like they wanted to do live demos on stage and bring

00:10:27 ◼   ► it back to being live.

00:10:30 ◼   ► And that's why I think we kind of like, we're feeling like this shaky, but they had, they

00:10:33 ◼   ► didn't completely go away from Craig jumping out of a plane, but it was someplace in the

00:10:38 ◼   ► middle.

00:10:39 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:10:40 ◼   ► Right.

00:10:41 ◼   ► Like there was, there was the weird Volkswagen, the 1970s flashback thing, which was like the

00:10:46 ◼   ► funniest part of the keynote.

00:10:49 ◼   ► Right.

00:10:50 ◼   ► Versus in the last past few years, there's been so these, all these gif memes of Craig doing

00:10:55 ◼   ► crazy transitions and, you know, running downstairs and jumping out planes and fighting a tiger.

00:11:00 ◼   ► That was to cover up like, what we have to announce for you is liquid glass.

00:11:03 ◼   ► Right.

00:11:04 ◼   ► Right.

00:11:05 ◼   ► And so they, they were like, special effects, we'll cover up the substance.

00:11:08 ◼   ► Here, I think they, they just paired it way down because they wanted all of the attention

00:11:13 ◼   ► on the substance.

00:11:14 ◼   ► Was that last year with the airplane and Phil Schiller piloting and I don't have time

00:11:18 ◼   ► for this stuff.

00:11:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:11:20 ◼   ► That was last year.

00:11:21 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:11:22 ◼   ► Which, but then there was, there was like, oh, it was like the basketball.

00:11:24 ◼   ► There's all these fun memes that we remember.

00:11:27 ◼   ► And I think you come out of that being like, wow, that was a very entertaining, very high energy

00:11:32 ◼   ► keynote or video ad, whatever we call these now.

00:11:37 ◼   ► Infomercial.

00:11:38 ◼   ► Yes.

00:11:39 ◼   ► Apple infomercial.

00:11:40 ◼   ► And you're, you're, you're, again, like the fugue state is very normal.

00:11:45 ◼   ► I think we're in it.

00:11:46 ◼   ► We're, we're trying to write, we're trying to figure out everything, but you're really clouded

00:11:50 ◼   ► by the production value and all of this.

00:11:53 ◼   ► And so again, like maybe it's that I wasn't bored, but it's just comparatively to past years,

00:11:59 ◼   ► I felt really taken down.

00:12:01 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:12:02 ◼   ► I, I described it as humble.

00:12:04 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:12:05 ◼   ► And it's an unusual adjective in recent years to apply to Apple.

00:12:09 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:12:10 ◼   ► Maybe.

00:12:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:12:12 ◼   ► But it was very humble.

00:12:13 ◼   ► I think I was talking to Adam Lissagor, you know, he agreed and he's got the pro commercial

00:12:20 ◼   ► maker's eye that, yeah, it was just low fi, you know, and it was more clearly not like it

00:12:26 ◼   ► looked bad, but more like, yeah, that looks like it was shot with iPhones.

00:12:29 ◼   ► Whereas some of the ones since they've started shooting the, these things on iPhones, you're

00:12:33 ◼   ► like, I can't believe they shot that on an iPhone.

00:12:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:12:36 ◼   ► They didn't add any lenses to the iPhone this year.

00:12:38 ◼   ► Right.

00:12:39 ◼   ► And it was, it just, it felt like it wanted to be live.

00:12:45 ◼   ► There were a few moments where I was like, why didn't we just do this live?

00:12:48 ◼   ► Like Google IO was live.

00:12:50 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:12:51 ◼   ► We have seen this return going back to live.

00:12:53 ◼   ► And it's, I just watched, I wonder if there's this internal debate at Apple about, do we

00:12:58 ◼   ► go back to live?

00:12:59 ◼   ► What we've seen so much success from the infomercials.

00:13:02 ◼   ► And I, I just wonder, I, again, this is like my fan fiction, like inside of Apple's boardrooms,

00:13:09 ◼   ► they're fighting about how to do these keynotes again.

00:13:11 ◼   ► And they're like, get out of here, Tim.

00:13:12 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:13 ◼   ► They're like, you're done.

00:13:14 ◼   ► You're done.

00:13:15 ◼   ► We're going back to live.

00:13:16 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:17 ◼   ► And in terms of how humble it was, I believe every single scene in the whole thing was inside

00:13:23 ◼   ► Apple part.

00:13:24 ◼   ► Yep.

00:13:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:26 ◼   ► And so even as simple as the fact that the code name for Mac OS 27 is golden gate, they

00:13:32 ◼   ► didn't even go to San Francisco right up the road to shoot at golden gate.

00:13:36 ◼   ► Right?

00:13:37 ◼   ► Like as opposed to all of the various exotic places they've shot keynote scenes in over

00:13:43 ◼   ► the years, they just shot the whole thing walking around and it was like-

00:13:46 ◼   ► They couldn't even rent the BART this year.

00:13:48 ◼   ► That was last year, right?

00:13:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:52 ◼   ► But that's not a complaint.

00:13:53 ◼   ► I'm like you.

00:13:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:55 ◼   ► So at first I think everybody in the press walking out of after it was like, whoa.

00:13:59 ◼   ► And it was short, right?

00:14:01 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:14:02 ◼   ► It was like, they went from like an hour and 45 minutes, hour and 45 minutes, hour and 50

00:14:06 ◼   ► minutes for the last couple to, it was like 76 minutes or something.

00:14:11 ◼   ► It was like an hour and 15 and that's counting a three minute music video gag at the end.

00:14:16 ◼   ► It was like, whoa, that was fast.

00:14:17 ◼   ► And they started early.

00:14:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:14:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:14:21 ◼   ► They even started it early.

00:14:23 ◼   ► I, but I think it was appropriate for the place they're at and what they had to announce.

00:14:29 ◼   ► It fit.

00:14:30 ◼   ► Like, I don't, it's not a complaint.

00:14:32 ◼   ► I think it was like, hey, this was tight and humble and this year's announcements are

00:14:39 ◼   ► very practical and kind of humble.

00:14:41 ◼   ► Right?

00:14:42 ◼   ► I mean, the first thing they announced, the literal first feature that they announced was

00:14:47 ◼   ► an opacity slider for liquid glass.

00:14:49 ◼   ► Right.

00:14:50 ◼   ► And it was like, John Gruber, are you happy now?

00:14:55 ◼   ► Not until then.

00:14:56 ◼   ► The next thing they announced was they tightened up the corner radius.

00:15:01 ◼   ► Yes.

00:15:02 ◼   ► That's right.

00:15:03 ◼   ► And they were like, and they're all the same, whether your app's been updated or not.

00:15:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:15:11 ◼   ► It's like, there's only one corner radius for windows.

00:15:13 ◼   ► And it got applause.

00:15:14 ◼   ► It did.

00:15:15 ◼   ► Just like it did here.

00:15:16 ◼   ► And it's like, yes, the WWDC audience is still the WWDC audience.

00:15:22 ◼   ► Corner radiuses for windows on the Mac got applause.

00:15:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:15:26 ◼   ► And I think you're humble is right.

00:15:28 ◼   ► And I think just regaining trust.

00:15:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:15:31 ◼   ► I think this was their moment to say, we're going to focus on these things that our billion

00:15:35 ◼   ► plus users use that we want to make better.

00:15:38 ◼   ► And also very much talk to the core audience.

00:15:41 ◼   ► That is what this conference is for.

00:15:44 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:15:45 ◼   ► So like you're saying, the sliders, but then also everything from the performance improvements,

00:15:50 ◼   ► that apps are going to perform better.

00:15:52 ◼   ► I think it's no, I mean, it certainly is on purpose that the first things they were talking

00:15:57 ◼   ► about was better app performance, better app launching.

00:16:01 ◼   ► And that, again, may be boring, but also just really important for the company at this moment.

00:16:08 ◼   ► It also very much struck me that all the bad guys are gone.

00:16:13 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:14 ◼   ► Like just straightforwardly, like Alan Dye, we will stomp on your grave.

00:16:19 ◼   ► And then, you know, all the Siri stuff, like John John Andrews, gone.

00:16:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:24 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:25 ◼   ► And Mike Rockwell, later on, was on stage live in front of journalists and creators,

00:16:28 ◼   ► just in front of system diagrams of the new Siri, being like, "I fixed it.

00:16:32 ◼   ► Here's how it works."

00:16:33 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:34 ◼   ► And so, and then, I don't know if you saw in the keynote, like literally a feature by feature,

00:16:38 ◼   ► they're like, "And here's a new product marketing manager."

00:16:40 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:41 ◼   ► And they were like, "You can now search in mail.

00:16:43 ◼   ► What about photos?"

00:16:44 ◼   ► And they were like, "Toss to another person.

00:16:46 ◼   ► Like, you can search in photos too."

00:16:47 ◼   ► And I think that the amount of just new blood that they were trying to show us, that they

00:16:52 ◼   ► had gotten rid of the people who had made the mistakes and all these new people were going

00:16:55 ◼   ► to build new features.

00:16:56 ◼   ► It was just a theme throughout the day.

00:16:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:17:00 ◼   ► So, I've written a bit about Alan Dye, but it comes back to the humility, right?

00:17:09 ◼   ► Like one of the things that irritated me last year, and I wrote about it, and I compared and

00:17:14 ◼   ► contrasted Alan Dye's recorded introduction of liquid glass.

00:17:18 ◼   ► And I think rather than showing the video, I mean, A, I don't really do video, but the

00:17:23 ◼   ► transcript of what he said, it's like such highfalutin, what the hell does that even mean?

00:17:31 ◼   ► And he didn't talk, you know, about like being true to the materials and the, I don't even

00:17:36 ◼   ► know.

00:17:37 ◼   ► And then go back to the transcript of Steve Jobs introducing the Aqua user interface, which

00:17:43 ◼   ► was like, "Whoa, look at that.

00:17:45 ◼   ► Holy crap.

00:17:46 ◼   ► That's what I'm going to be using."

00:17:47 ◼   ► And it's like, "I don't know."

00:17:48 ◼   ► You know, and then listening and transcribing Steve's words.

00:17:53 ◼   ► And it was stuff like, "Yeah, we wanted the buttons so cool you could lick them."

00:17:57 ◼   ► You know, like that's the language he used.

00:17:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:18:00 ◼   ► And Steve Jobs talking about things like the key window in terms of like, "Oh, that's

00:18:07 ◼   ► the window that has input focus."

00:18:09 ◼   ► And look at the difference and talking about it like, and you could tell that Steve Jobs really

00:18:14 ◼   ► cared about those aspects of user interface design.

00:18:17 ◼   ► Like, "Oh, if you've got four windows visible on screen, it should be really obvious which

00:18:22 ◼   ► one has input focus."

00:18:23 ◼   ► And using the lingo, like key window.

00:18:27 ◼   ► And then somebody who used to work at Apple and doesn't anymore, which is why they were

00:18:30 ◼   ► able to chat with me, was like, "Yeah, when I used to meet with Alan Dye's team, I never

00:18:35 ◼   ► used words like that."

00:18:36 ◼   ► Because when I did, it was like I could see their eyes rolling back in their head.

00:18:39 ◼   ► Like, "Oh, you're going to nerd talk us with the nerd talk lingo, like key window."

00:18:44 ◼   ► The Alan Dye experience was very much like, if you do a Johnny Ivan impression without a

00:18:48 ◼   ► British accent.

00:18:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:18:50 ◼   ► It's just like less convincing.

00:18:52 ◼   ► Like that accent conquered the world.

00:18:54 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:18:55 ◼   ► Like you could just get away with anything.

00:18:56 ◼   ► And Alan Dye is like, "The materials are true to themselves."

00:18:58 ◼   ► Right.

00:18:59 ◼   ► I believe you, less.

00:19:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:19:01 ◼   ► You know, like...

00:19:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:19:04 ◼   ► But go back to yesterday's keynote and how did they introduce these changes?

00:19:07 ◼   ► They're like, "Hey, we heard your feedback.

00:19:09 ◼   ► Some people like more transparency.

00:19:11 ◼   ► Some people like less.

00:19:12 ◼   ► Here's a slider.

00:19:13 ◼   ► You know, less, more."

00:19:14 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:19:15 ◼   ► You know, we heard you guys.

00:19:17 ◼   ► The corner radiuses, that was kind of...

00:19:19 ◼   ► They could have done like, "Whose idea was that?"

00:19:21 ◼   ► They could have made a joke.

00:19:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:19:23 ◼   ► But they just said, "Hey, we unified.

00:19:25 ◼   ► We have a standard corner radius.

00:19:27 ◼   ► And it's the tighter one, not the dumb baby big one."

00:19:31 ◼   ► I would have taken that.

00:19:34 ◼   ► It would have been better if all windows had the big dumb baby corner radius.

00:19:39 ◼   ► But this was actually the best case scenario.

00:19:41 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:19:42 ◼   ► You know, actually, they made another joke during this briefing I had with journalists at the end.

00:19:47 ◼   ► It was live.

00:19:48 ◼   ► And I don't know what you guys thought about it.

00:19:50 ◼   ► The first thing that struck me was they were all kind of nervous because they're so out of practice.

00:19:55 ◼   ► Right?

00:19:56 ◼   ► A bunch of Apple executives are going to sit on a stage and they're going to talk about their products live and take questions in a fairly constrained way, but they're still going to do it.

00:20:03 ◼   ► And it's like, "Oh, they just haven't done this in a long time."

00:20:06 ◼   ► And as you all know, Apple executives are very practiced, they're very smooth.

00:20:09 ◼   ► And it was still like, "Oh, they're a little shaky."

00:20:12 ◼   ► Also, Tim Cook was right in the front, just staring at Craig being like, "Don't blow it."

00:20:17 ◼   ► And so that must have been tough.

00:20:20 ◼   ► But at the very beginning of this, they got a question on agents.

00:20:23 ◼   ► And Craig was like, "Oh, so you all watch Google I/O."

00:20:25 ◼   ► And it was just funny.

00:20:26 ◼   ► And it was like, Apple's in the world, right?

00:20:28 ◼   ► They're not in this hermetically sealed bubble.

00:20:30 ◼   ► They're aware of the competition.

00:20:31 ◼   ► Google's their partner.

00:20:32 ◼   ► They have to cop to it.

00:20:33 ◼   ► And it was just more grounded in that very specific way.

00:20:38 ◼   ► The other thing, too, we talked about the fact that the overall keynote was very short compared to previous ones.

00:20:43 ◼   ► It's hard to imagine them ever having a WWDC keynote that would be less time.

00:20:47 ◼   ► But I'm pausing for effect because that included a lot of really long pauses for the demos, right?

00:20:56 ◼   ► Yes, 100%.

00:20:57 ◼   ► Because, as you said, Joanna, they shot them as though they were on tape, but they were live to tape.

00:21:03 ◼   ► And there was no doubt.

00:21:05 ◼   ► When you were just like, "Okay, that's a long pause because that is the real-time demo."

00:21:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:12 ◼   ► Which was absolutely a reaction to what happened to two years ago and they wanted none of that.

00:21:17 ◼   ► And even as Neil, I would say, it is not a joke how many times they said, "We want you to go download the software.

00:21:23 ◼   ► We want you to go try it.

00:21:24 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:25 ◼   ► We want you to know that what we showed was real and now we want you to experience it."

00:21:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:31 ◼   ► Not what happened two years ago.

00:21:33 ◼   ► Were you at the Tech Talk at noon that Neil and I was talking about?

00:21:37 ◼   ► Yes.

00:21:38 ◼   ► The live one?

00:21:39 ◼   ► Okay.

00:21:40 ◼   ► They did live demos there too.

00:21:41 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:42 ◼   ► Mike Rockwell did, I think, Sebastian Marno...

00:21:45 ◼   ► It wasn't it.

00:21:46 ◼   ► Sebastian.

00:21:47 ◼   ► I tried to autocomplete it and it said Sebastian Maniscalco and I was like, "That wasn't it."

00:21:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:52 ◼   ► But Rockwell did live demos.

00:21:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:56 ◼   ► And you could see that they were nervous.

00:21:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:58 ◼   ► Even though you knew that this was a pretty canned live demo and that they knew what they

00:22:01 ◼   ► were going to ask.

00:22:02 ◼   ► They knew what was...

00:22:03 ◼   ► It wasn't like we were like, "Hey, can you do this thing from the audience?"

00:22:05 ◼   ► Like they weren't taking requests from us in the audience.

00:22:08 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:22:09 ◼   ► But they seemed nervous.

00:22:10 ◼   ► I mean, in the same way that almost...

00:22:13 ◼   ► There's the meme of the guy who did the coconut cookies demo in the...

00:22:20 ◼   ► Have you guys seen the meme of the...

00:22:22 ◼   ► I guess he's going around as the dad that's kind of out of touch.

00:22:25 ◼   ► I don't remember the Apple executive during the keynote.

00:22:28 ◼   ► And it was such a long pause that there's now this meme kind of going around about like

00:22:31 ◼   ► what he could have been searching for.

00:22:34 ◼   ► And I think just even in that moment, that guy seemed nervous.

00:22:40 ◼   ► Like there's this weird silence.

00:22:42 ◼   ► It's weird to sit with the silence of Siri.

00:22:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:22:46 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:22:47 ◼   ► I do...

00:22:48 ◼   ► I sat with it almost all day.

00:22:50 ◼   ► I was with Siri all day.

00:22:51 ◼   ► I do think that the nature of a staged keynote, meaning literally with an audience on stage

00:23:00 ◼   ► and you do a demo, is far more forgiving to a demo that takes time because of a processing

00:23:09 ◼   ► step, whether it's AI or go back in time to like, oh, it's, you know, here's somebody from Adobe

00:23:14 ◼   ► and they're showing off a new version of Photoshop and it's going to take a couple seconds to render the image.

00:23:19 ◼   ► Live with an audience and you have to wait because it's going to be technically impressive

00:23:26 ◼   ► or understandably, you know, it adds drama.

00:23:30 ◼   ► But in the context of a filmed keynote where they tighten everything and it's like you cut, you cut,

00:23:36 ◼   ► you don't have to wait for anybody to come out on stage.

00:23:39 ◼   ► They say, hey, and here to tell you more is Joanna.

00:23:42 ◼   ► And it just cuts to Joanna and she's already there.

00:23:45 ◼   ► When you introduce a laggy demo, it stands out.

00:23:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:23:50 ◼   ► And maybe that's also why they shot that in this way.

00:23:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:23:56 ◼   ► Right.

00:23:57 ◼   ► Going back to our, like there wasn't these crazy transitions.

00:24:00 ◼   ► Nope.

00:24:01 ◼   ► Maybe that's also why they shot it that way.

00:24:03 ◼   ► Yeah, I think so.

00:24:04 ◼   ► Somebody got paid so much money to structure this and think about the creative around this.

00:24:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:12 ◼   ► So much money.

00:24:13 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:14 ◼   ► It's like they went indie, right?

00:24:15 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:16 ◼   ► Or like Apple unplugged.

00:24:17 ◼   ► It's all the rage.

00:24:18 ◼   ► This is all the rage.

00:24:19 ◼   ► But yeah, I don't have that production budget still.

00:24:21 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:23 ◼   ► What was it?

00:24:24 ◼   ► I think it was last year or maybe the year.

00:24:25 ◼   ► They blur together.

00:24:26 ◼   ► But the time that Craig Federighi cut to himself, but then he did like, what's that called when

00:24:34 ◼   ► you jumped down the stairs?

00:24:35 ◼   ► The stunt double.

00:24:36 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:37 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:38 ◼   ► And it's, you know, just none of that.

00:24:41 ◼   ► It's just here, here you are.

00:24:42 ◼   ► And it's like shaky cam and it's all real and it's in real time.

00:24:45 ◼   ► And I think it works.

00:24:46 ◼   ► Right.

00:24:47 ◼   ► I think it added credibility.

00:24:48 ◼   ► It's like, this is the Siri you're going to expect to get.

00:24:52 ◼   ► Before I move on though, the other thing that I thought it was weird that they opened the

00:24:57 ◼   ► keynote and they're like, instead of doing a section on the Mac and then a section on the

00:25:02 ◼   ► iPad.

00:25:03 ◼   ► And it has been weird over the last few years because they've kind of gotten all the

00:25:08 ◼   ► features in step and they're going to come out for all of these platforms.

00:25:12 ◼   ► And so they take like a third of the features, call them Mac features, a third, they call them

00:25:16 ◼   ► iPhone, a third, they call them iPad, but they're all like for all platforms.

00:25:20 ◼   ► And it's like just, and this time they were just like, here's the features.

00:25:24 ◼   ► It's for all of them.

00:25:25 ◼   ► And it was 15 minutes and that was it.

00:25:27 ◼   ► And then, well, I don't know if you have more to say about that, but then.

00:25:31 ◼   ► They spent almost as long.

00:25:33 ◼   ► They spent like 12, 13 minutes.

00:25:34 ◼   ► They spent like 15 minutes on all the features for all the platforms and then spent almost

00:25:39 ◼   ► as long just talking about parental controls.

00:25:42 ◼   ► So I wrote this in my newsletter this morning.

00:25:45 ◼   ► I'm, I'm genuinely not sure if they needed to fill the time.

00:25:49 ◼   ► I was like, did they need to fill this amount of time?

00:25:51 ◼   ► And they're like, this is it.

00:25:53 ◼   ► This is our year for parental controls.

00:25:55 ◼   ► We haven't talked about it in 10 years.

00:25:57 ◼   ► It's going smack in the middle of the keynote.

00:26:00 ◼   ► So either one, did that happen?

00:26:02 ◼   ► Two, they have a big hurdle up against that.

00:26:06 ◼   ► They've got to convince parents.

00:26:07 ◼   ► They've got to convince regulators about the safety of the platform.

00:26:10 ◼   ► And it's a great marketing utility to say, hey, we're, we're better than Android on this.

00:26:15 ◼   ► Or, you know, lastly, are this features just really great and they're really proud of it.

00:26:19 ◼   ► And they wanted to talk about it.

00:26:21 ◼   ► They wanted to talk about it.

00:26:22 ◼   ► Are they really great, Joanna?

00:26:23 ◼   ► No.

00:26:24 ◼   ► Well, look, I have a lot of feelings on parental controls.

00:26:28 ◼   ► I think that I, I think it's a combination of all three of those things, by the way.

00:26:34 ◼   ► I think that the, they needed to reintroduce the fact that they have a lot of these features.

00:26:42 ◼   ► And so things that might have been presented as new are absolutely not new.

00:26:48 ◼   ► I use a lot of those features with my kids all the time.

00:26:52 ◼   ► Some things were new, like the ability to block certain websites, the new assistant that onboards

00:26:58 ◼   ► you, that seems like a pretty new thing.

00:27:00 ◼   ► I haven't gotten to use it yet, but they talked about it.

00:27:03 ◼   ► And the big thing that's new, which they didn't talk about during the keynote, but I confirmed

00:27:07 ◼   ► with Apple after is that they've fixed the underlying architecture of how this was working, how screen

00:27:12 ◼   ► time and parental controls are working.

00:27:14 ◼   ► And so if you're a parent out there and you know that you've used, you've used this to, let's

00:27:20 ◼   ► say limit the screen time app on my son's Roblox, for instance.

00:27:24 ◼   ► Right.

00:27:25 ◼   ► I've said only 45 minutes, yet it still runs for two hours.

00:27:31 ◼   ► They just were broken.

00:27:34 ◼   ► Right.

00:27:35 ◼   ► Right.

00:27:36 ◼   ► The syncing has been broken.

00:27:37 ◼   ► The tools have just like, my son will request an app.

00:27:40 ◼   ► I'm like, I haven't gotten that request.

00:27:41 ◼   ► I'm sorry.

00:27:42 ◼   ► Right.

00:27:43 ◼   ► Things like this have just been broken.

00:27:45 ◼   ► And so Apple says that they have now revamped this.

00:27:48 ◼   ► The underlying architecture should just work.

00:27:51 ◼   ► And that's not something they talk about on stage, but that is huge.

00:27:54 ◼   ► That is huge for parents.

00:27:55 ◼   ► That the existing features work now after five years.

00:27:58 ◼   ► Yes.

00:28:00 ◼   ► So I have a much more cynical view of this.

00:28:04 ◼   ► This is maybe unsurprising.

00:28:06 ◼   ► No.

00:28:07 ◼   ► What a shock.

00:28:09 ◼   ► What was it?

00:28:10 ◼   ► Like 10 years ago, they shut down all the parental control apps that were based on MDMs.

00:28:14 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:28:15 ◼   ► Remember?

00:28:16 ◼   ► And there was a big argument about this.

00:28:17 ◼   ► They're like, this is a security feature.

00:28:19 ◼   ► Apple, or security risk.

00:28:20 ◼   ► Apple simply has not experienced competition for parental controls.

00:28:23 ◼   ► They're like, we shut down all the MDM-based solutions.

00:28:26 ◼   ► By the way, totally fine for your employer to install MDM-based shit all over your life.

00:28:30 ◼   ► Right.

00:28:31 ◼   ► What do parents want to do with their kids?

00:28:32 ◼   ► We have to absolutely not.

00:28:33 ◼   ► Right.

00:28:34 ◼   ► So that never made any sense.

00:28:35 ◼   ► But they shut down third-party parental control systems.

00:28:38 ◼   ► And they said, we're going to roll it into the operating system.

00:28:41 ◼   ► And then no one is going to switch to Android because of screen time control.

00:28:44 ◼   ► It's simply not happening.

00:28:45 ◼   ► So we've been in a vacuum of competition.

00:28:48 ◼   ► And in that time, every parent in the world is like, this sucks.

00:28:53 ◼   ► And because there's nowhere to go, they've gone to their governments.

00:28:56 ◼   ► And so now Texas has age verification.

00:28:58 ◼   ► We just saw the big lawsuits against the social media companies about how little regard they

00:29:02 ◼   ► have for their users and children.

00:29:03 ◼   ► There is a wave of regulation in this country and in countries around the world at the state

00:29:08 ◼   ► level that Apple is furious about.

00:29:10 ◼   ► And it's all going to end with them having to do age verification at the operating system

00:29:16 ◼   ► level because it's not the right answer, but it's also not the wrong answer.

00:29:21 ◼   ► Right?

00:29:22 ◼   ► The wrong answer is every single app asks for your driver's license.

00:29:26 ◼   ► Maybe you don't want that to happen at all.

00:29:28 ◼   ► I think there's a lot of First Amendment concerns or just concerns.

00:29:31 ◼   ► But they're going to drive headfirst into, we are so reticent to let there be competition

00:29:37 ◼   ► in this market that we have to do it.

00:29:39 ◼   ► And so now we're announcing a bunch of old features that work now in an effort to get on

00:29:44 ◼   ► daytime television.

00:29:45 ◼   ► So parents are like, "Apple fixed it," to stave off regulators around the world.

00:29:49 ◼   ► And I do not think it's going to work.

00:29:51 ◼   ► I don't think that class of people, the people protesting outside of Apple Park yesterday,

00:29:56 ◼   ► are going to be fooled by a reintroduction of screen time controls with new defaults set

00:30:01 ◼   ► by the American Academy of Pediatrics.

00:30:03 ◼   ► And I asked Apple about this and they're like, "But we think the features are great."

00:30:07 ◼   ► And it's like, "The hammer's coming, man."

00:30:09 ◼   ► Like, one way or another.

00:30:10 ◼   ► And I also think the argument, totally agree with all of this, is now we have actually give

00:30:15 ◼   ► parents working controls.

00:30:17 ◼   ► And so now the onus is on the parents, right?

00:30:19 ◼   ► Because the parents could previously say, and these old groups could say, "These tools

00:30:22 ◼   ► don't work."

00:30:23 ◼   ► Right?

00:30:24 ◼   ► We've been trying.

00:30:25 ◼   ► We've been trying.

00:30:26 ◼   ► These tools don't work.

00:30:27 ◼   ► Things get through the cracks.

00:30:28 ◼   ► We can't do it.

00:30:29 ◼   ► Why should we as parents be IT managers?

00:30:31 ◼   ► They're like, "Actually, no, we've made it way easier and now it all works."

00:30:36 ◼   ► One thing I love about having you two, I just had this moment here where I'm imagining instead

00:30:42 ◼   ► it's Craig and Jaws.

00:30:45 ◼   ► And there would be no agreement on stage that the parental controls features just didn't

00:30:52 ◼   ► work for years.

00:30:53 ◼   ► Like, this would be a fight.

00:30:56 ◼   ► I mean, they just have not worked for years.

00:30:58 ◼   ► I know.

00:30:59 ◼   ► I've heard this over and over again.

00:31:01 ◼   ► And I'm a little older.

00:31:02 ◼   ► My son just graduated college.

00:31:04 ◼   ► So I'm past the, yes.

00:31:07 ◼   ► He'll enjoy that if he actually is honest about watching the show.

00:31:15 ◼   ► Congratulations, Jonas.

00:31:16 ◼   ► And then he's going to be like, "Dad, can you please approve my purchase of Roblox?"

00:31:21 ◼   ► Right.

00:31:22 ◼   ► So I have not been approving his purchases or his screen time for a long time.

00:31:27 ◼   ► And really when he was more of that age, that stuff wasn't even there.

00:31:31 ◼   ► It really was, and again, I don't want to run past the whole, without mentioning that, hey,

00:31:38 ◼   ► parents should just know what their kids are doing on devices.

00:31:41 ◼   ► Right?

00:31:42 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:31:43 ◼   ► The idea that either laws or operating system features are going to absolve parents of knowing

00:31:55 ◼   ► what their kids are doing on their devices is ridiculous.

00:31:56 ◼   ► But also, people are lazy, and they want to believe that those things are possible.

00:32:01 ◼   ► And so it's a real deal.

00:32:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:32:03 ◼   ► But I think what you're saying, Neelai, is in some ways maybe Apple brought this on themselves

00:32:08 ◼   ► by letting the built-in features, A, not work, and B, be confusing.

00:32:14 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:32:15 ◼   ► They were not very well designed.

00:32:17 ◼   ► And I think that's sort of the story from yesterday.

00:32:19 ◼   ► A, fundamentally, the stuff that we said would work, like if you say your kid can have 45 minutes

00:32:24 ◼   ► of Roblox time on a school night, that's what they get.

00:32:28 ◼   ► And then a dialogue comes up at 45 minutes and one second and says, that's it, your time

00:32:33 ◼   ► is up.

00:32:34 ◼   ► And they don't, two hours later, they're not still playing.

00:32:37 ◼   ► But B, that they introduced it like these are new features, but really it's like, oh,

00:32:42 ◼   ► this is a design that adds clarity and understanding to the features such that you, as a parent,

00:32:49 ◼   ► will be able to look at it and say, oh, I understand how to do this.

00:32:52 ◼   ► I could say, this is what they can do on weekdays.

00:32:55 ◼   ► This is that they can watch a three hour movie on Saturdays and Sundays.

00:32:59 ◼   ► I understand it now.

00:33:01 ◼   ► Like, and that is writ large.

00:33:04 ◼   ► That's the story of Apple and software period for everything.

00:33:07 ◼   ► Apple at their best makes design software that helps people understand how to use the software.

00:33:13 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:33:14 ◼   ► I mean, the big announcement here is they introduced defaults.

00:33:16 ◼   ► Right.

00:33:17 ◼   ► Right.

00:33:18 ◼   ► And we all know defaults are extraordinarily powerful.

00:33:19 ◼   ► Right.

00:33:20 ◼   ► And Apple simply did not have a point of view in the previous system.

00:33:22 ◼   ► Right.

00:33:23 ◼   ► Right.

00:33:24 ◼   ► And Apple was like, I don't know, you figure it out.

00:33:26 ◼   ► And now they've punted that.

00:33:27 ◼   ► Right.

00:33:27 ◼   ► They've punted that to the American Academy of Pediatrics and their big slide of expert organizations

00:33:32 ◼   ► they've consulted with.

00:33:33 ◼   ► And they're really relying on that expertise.

00:33:35 ◼   ► And all of that is the foundation for when you open this and you tell me how old your kids

00:33:39 ◼   ► are, we are going to set some defaults for you.

00:33:42 ◼   ► And that will be, I think, tremendously useful to parents if the features actually work.

00:33:46 ◼   ► But I really do not think it's going to stave off just the mountain, the growing tidal wave

00:33:53 ◼   ► of concern from regulators on the world.

00:33:55 ◼   ► Right.

00:33:56 ◼   ► There's also just the sort of like essential paradox of this all, which is the problem is

00:34:02 ◼   ► the social media apps.

00:34:03 ◼   ► And these controls cannot reach into Instagram and say this post is actually not appropriate

00:34:08 ◼   ► for you.

00:34:09 ◼   ► Right.

00:34:10 ◼   ► There needs to be some coordination between all of these different apps and the operating

00:34:13 ◼   ► system.

00:34:14 ◼   ► And that simply does not exist.

00:34:16 ◼   ► And I suspect it won't exist until someone passes a law.

00:34:19 ◼   ► So it's just going to keep building in that way.

00:34:21 ◼   ► And I think that's the frustration that you hear for parents or feel as parents.

00:34:25 ◼   ► Why are we as IT managers?

00:34:27 ◼   ► We've got to manage all these different apps.

00:34:29 ◼   ► We've got to manage the operating system.

00:34:32 ◼   ► This is the effort is to make this better at the operating system level, but it does not

00:34:37 ◼   ► get around all of these other things that all the other apps have to do and make work.

00:34:43 ◼   ► Screen time is whatever the health and mental and upbringing well-being aspects of it.

00:34:49 ◼   ► It is not as bad as smoking cigarettes, but to compare it to a previous.

00:34:55 ◼   ► I was a teenager in like the early 90s, like that ruled, you know?

00:34:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:35:00 ◼   ► But the perspective on cigarettes, it was sort of like it back in the day.

00:35:05 ◼   ► It was more like, well, how young should a kid be before they start to smoke?

00:35:09 ◼   ► You know, from the tobacco industry, from the tobacco industry's perspective, like, no,

00:35:14 ◼   ► we're not going after grade school kids.

00:35:16 ◼   ► Seriously, we're really not.

00:35:17 ◼   ► We're going after like middle school kids.

00:35:20 ◼   ► You know?

00:35:21 ◼   ► You're 13.

00:35:22 ◼   ► You got a job and you got a pack.

00:35:23 ◼   ► We're not animals.

00:35:24 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:35:25 ◼   ► Third graders should not be smoking.

00:35:26 ◼   ► You know, we agree with that.

00:35:27 ◼   ► But there is a, you don't have to be a cynic to think, hey, maybe Apple isn't the company to be saying how much screen time and device time your kids should have.

00:35:39 ◼   ► Right?

00:35:40 ◼   ► Like, because they sell the devices.

00:35:42 ◼   ► Right?

00:35:43 ◼   ► And I, in particular with like, hey, how much, what should be the deal with kids in school with their phones?

00:35:49 ◼   ► I think the answer is this phone should go in those lockboxes and you kids shouldn't have phones in school.

00:35:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:35:56 ◼   ► And I would have really been impressed if Apple had said, this is our recommendation.

00:36:01 ◼   ► And they probably, I'm sure they could get the pediatric association to say, and there's proof that school districts that are implementing policies like that are like, yeah, the kid's behavior is better.

00:36:10 ◼   ► Their attention's better.

00:36:11 ◼   ► The kids actually enjoy it.

00:36:13 ◼   ► Once it's instituted, they may object when they say that's the new rule.

00:36:16 ◼   ► It would be something if Apple said that, you know, like the best policy would be for kids not to use their phones when they're in school.

00:36:22 ◼   ► Well, they got to sell iPads, man.

00:36:24 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:36:25 ◼   ► It's like very challenging.

00:36:26 ◼   ► Or Mac with Neos.

00:36:27 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:36:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:36:29 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:36:30 ◼   ► Use your school, you know, and again, it falls into the old Apple line of just buy more devices, right?

00:36:34 ◼   ► Have the kids put their phones in the locker and have the school buy a bunch of iPads to give them.

00:36:39 ◼   ► They just have the school software on.

00:36:40 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:36:41 ◼   ► Right.

00:36:42 ◼   ► That's what Jaws would tell you on stage.

00:36:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:36:44 ◼   ► That's what he would.

00:36:45 ◼   ► He definitely would.

00:36:46 ◼   ► Right?

00:36:47 ◼   ► Right.

00:36:48 ◼   ► We're not bringing those things together.

00:36:49 ◼   ► We want them to buy all separate devices.

00:36:50 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:36:51 ◼   ► These are all the best device.

00:36:52 ◼   ► He never misses an opportunity to tell you to buy another device.

00:36:57 ◼   ► I remembered, and I just have to mention this.

00:37:00 ◼   ► It is, but it's the way that things change over time.

00:37:03 ◼   ► And I've been doing this long enough where now it feels like, man, that is a long time ago.

00:37:08 ◼   ► Because what you're saying, both of you, it is incredibly relevant outside the nerd culture.

00:37:14 ◼   ► It is a real conventional news culture issue.

00:37:19 ◼   ► Real laws.

00:37:20 ◼   ► Texas has a, you know, it's not hypothetical.

00:37:23 ◼   ► It's passed.

00:37:24 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:37:25 ◼   ► Other countries around the world.

00:37:26 ◼   ► It's shipping.

00:37:27 ◼   ► Age verification on iOS in Texas is shipping today.

00:37:29 ◼   ► And it's complicated.

00:37:30 ◼   ► Apple has a thing on the developer news site about how to, you know, make sure your app or

00:37:35 ◼   ► game complies with the law.

00:37:36 ◼   ► And I read it and I'm like, I'm glad I don't have an app anymore because I don't understand

00:37:41 ◼   ► what I would need to do.

00:37:42 ◼   ► But to go back far enough, when Apple first added features called parental controls, it

00:37:48 ◼   ► was in the classic Mac OS.

00:37:50 ◼   ► And it was things like, hey, you can't just throw folders in the trash and emptied the trash.

00:37:59 ◼   ► And you can't do things like this.

00:38:01 ◼   ► And then I met somebody who was an engineer at Apple and that those features, they called

00:38:07 ◼   ► them parental controls, but they were written by middle aged engineers at Apple for their parents.

00:38:14 ◼   ► So they were parental controls.

00:38:17 ◼   ► Yes.

00:38:18 ◼   ► And that's why they called, I swear to God, that is why the feature was called parental controls.

00:38:24 ◼   ► It was like an in-joke at Apple.

00:38:26 ◼   ► That's amazing.

00:38:27 ◼   ► Right.

00:38:28 ◼   ► They would like go back home for Thanksgiving and their parents would be like, hey, I don't

00:38:33 ◼   ► know what happened, but the web, the internet is gone.

00:38:37 ◼   ► And they'd be like, do you mean the internet explorer?

00:38:40 ◼   ► And they'd be like, yeah, the internet, it's gone.

00:38:43 ◼   ► And they'd look and it's like in the trash.

00:38:46 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:38:47 ◼   ► And they'd be like, oh, thank God they don't know how to empty the trash.

00:38:49 ◼   ► And they drag it out and it's like, oh, you brought the internet back.

00:38:52 ◼   ► I actually need a version of this right now in iOS for my parents.

00:38:56 ◼   ► But it's really what the features were originally.

00:38:59 ◼   ► And if you think about it, it's like, yes, yes, there were the jokes with the Oscar, the

00:39:03 ◼   ► Grouch extension, if you go back far enough, where the kids wanted to make Oscars sing.

00:39:07 ◼   ► So they were throwing files in the trash and emptying the trash.

00:39:11 ◼   ► But for the most part, kids understand how computers work much better than older people.

00:39:15 ◼   ► So they weren't, they didn't really need those protections.

00:39:17 ◼   ► It was for the parents.

00:39:19 ◼   ► But now it really is parents with young children.

00:39:22 ◼   ► The problem is that the kids understand how the computers work a little bit better.

00:39:26 ◼   ► And they can get around the controls.

00:39:29 ◼   ► Right.

00:39:30 ◼   ► There have been so many ways that they could get around the Apple controls.

00:39:32 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:39:33 ◼   ► By the way, my daughter is eight and I'm like, oh, you're never getting a phone.

00:39:36 ◼   ► Right?

00:39:37 ◼   ► My son is 11 months old.

00:39:38 ◼   ► And I'm like, maybe they won't exist by the time this comes around.

00:39:40 ◼   ► Like, who knows?

00:39:41 ◼   ► But, you know, the families in my area have like the, the path.

00:39:45 ◼   ► It's like, if anyone wants to break, just call me right away.

00:39:49 ◼   ► And we will not give our kids these phones until like the last minute.

00:39:53 ◼   ► I don't know how we're going to last.

00:39:54 ◼   ► We're getting them smart glasses.

00:39:55 ◼   ► We're getting them.

00:39:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:39:57 ◼   ► They're all going to get meta glasses.

00:39:58 ◼   ► Yeah, they're all getting meta glasses.

00:39:59 ◼   ► And surreptitiously record each other.

00:40:00 ◼   ► I'm not getting my daughter a phone, just meta glasses.

00:40:03 ◼   ► All right.

00:40:04 ◼   ► From Alan Dye.

00:40:05 ◼   ► He's like, you will hate this interface so much.

00:40:10 ◼   ► Next card I have here.

00:40:19 ◼   ► We talked about a little of the tech talk that they had post keynote.

00:40:22 ◼   ► I'll just reiterate, I just think that was good for Apple too.

00:40:26 ◼   ► I think the keynote was good for Apple.

00:40:28 ◼   ► I think actually being on stage in front of people in the press was good.

00:40:32 ◼   ► I think they could have made it a little longer.

00:40:35 ◼   ► I mean, it was like, it was scheduled for an hour and 45 minutes.

00:40:39 ◼   ► Craig was like my iPad saying times up.

00:40:41 ◼   ► And I was like, I thought we had 15 more minutes.

00:40:43 ◼   ► I, we just got started.

00:40:44 ◼   ► They did like 40 minutes of prepared stuff, which was good.

00:40:47 ◼   ► It was good.

00:40:48 ◼   ► And nerdy and detailed and like, oh, I could see why this wasn't in the keynote.

00:40:53 ◼   ► And it's good to inform the press about how this stuff works, how the architecture works.

00:40:57 ◼   ► And then they're like, now it's time for questions.

00:40:59 ◼   ► And they did that for five minutes.

00:41:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:01 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:02 ◼   ► It would have been better.

00:41:03 ◼   ► But they're getting their feet wet.

00:41:04 ◼   ► It's like they're brand new for them.

00:41:05 ◼   ► They haven't done it in a long time.

00:41:07 ◼   ► You got to ski down the bunny hill first.

00:41:09 ◼   ► Next year, they might do live questions.

00:41:10 ◼   ► We'll see how it goes.

00:41:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:12 ◼   ► I would like to see more of that.

00:41:13 ◼   ► That would be very good.

00:41:14 ◼   ► Or they, you know, they could do things like come on shows.

00:41:16 ◼   ► This would be a great place to do a tech talk.

00:41:17 ◼   ► I know it would.

00:41:18 ◼   ► I mean, if you're going to let them have a board, right?

00:41:19 ◼   ► You could present.

00:41:20 ◼   ► You wouldn't be allowed with that.

00:41:21 ◼   ► You're going to put up the Siri architecture slide.

00:41:22 ◼   ► It's for this room.

00:41:23 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:41:24 ◼   ► You should.

00:41:25 ◼   ► I thought the entire reason they did that was, I don't know if you guys saw the photos

00:41:36 ◼   ► from the tech talk.

00:41:37 ◼   ► They showed the architecture.

00:41:38 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:39 ◼   ► They very specifically compared and contrast the sort of standard chatbot architecture where

00:41:42 ◼   ► you've got an app on the phone and it goes to the cloud and there's models in the cloud.

00:41:45 ◼   ► And then they're like, and that's pretty much how Gemini works.

00:41:47 ◼   ► And then they're like, here's our architecture.

00:41:50 ◼   ► And Craig very directly was like, as you can see, we're using nothing of Google's.

00:41:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:55 ◼   ► Like nothing at all.

00:41:56 ◼   ► We're using zero of the approach that Google's using.

00:41:58 ◼   ► They've helped us refine our models, which is just a very, you have to unpack that.

00:42:03 ◼   ► Like I'm not 100% sure what that means because Apple didn't have good models to begin with.

00:42:08 ◼   ► So did they distill the Gemini models to make their models better?

00:42:12 ◼   ► Are they using a variant on Gemini that they've trained?

00:42:15 ◼   ► They certainly haven't trained new models.

00:42:16 ◼   ► There's a reason they're paying Google all the money.

00:42:19 ◼   ► But they were just very clear that the architecture of Apple intelligence, even though it runs on

00:42:24 ◼   ► NVIDIA hardware and Google Cloud, is their own.

00:42:28 ◼   ► And it has nothing to do with Gemini in the way that people, I think, assumed that's something to do with Gemini.

00:42:33 ◼   ► And to me, that was the entire purpose of that conversation.

00:42:36 ◼   ► Yeah, I think so too.

00:42:37 ◼   ► And I think for all of our complaints about Apple and product naming over the years, it's like time for Apple to get their fair short end of the stick with the fact that Google calls everything related to AI Gemini.

00:42:51 ◼   ► Right.

00:42:52 ◼   ► The models are Gemini.

00:42:53 ◼   ► The assistant app is Gemini.

00:42:55 ◼   ► You go into Google Docs and the new buttons they're adding everywhere.

00:42:59 ◼   ► Gemini, Gemini, Gemini, everything is Gemini.

00:43:02 ◼   ► And what Federighi did on that slide is, well, we don't use that.

00:43:06 ◼   ► Take it off.

00:43:06 ◼   ► We don't use that.

00:43:07 ◼   ► Take it off.

00:43:08 ◼   ► And it goes all the way back to the original, just the models, not even the assistant.

00:43:12 ◼   ► But Google does call those models Gemini.

00:43:14 ◼   ► And they're like, so we have to call them Gemini too.

00:43:16 ◼   ► But then you just say that word once and we did this in partnership with Google and all people here is, oh, when I talk to Siri, then now it's in Google Gemini.

00:43:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:43:27 ◼   ► And it's not.

00:43:28 ◼   ► Yes.

00:43:29 ◼   ► This is clearly a distancing process.

00:43:30 ◼   ► Right.

00:43:31 ◼   ► I agree.

00:43:32 ◼   ► And it was actually the message throughout a lot of the briefings as well and how to phrase it.

00:43:38 ◼   ► So it's very clear.

00:43:39 ◼   ► This is Apple partnering with Google or Gemini, not powered by.

00:43:46 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:43:47 ◼   ► And I think, you know, again, to their credit, I think it was a very good session.

00:43:51 ◼   ► I think it was, I think it was needed.

00:43:52 ◼   ► I think it was good that it was live and it treated us who were there in the audience as technically proficient, smart journalists who could under, if we could learn what they're trying to explain to us.

00:44:07 ◼   ► And it was not like a baby explanation of it.

00:44:11 ◼   ► And it's like, then it's up to us to explain to our, you know, put it in our words and explain it to our audiences.

00:44:17 ◼   ► But there was a respect to the audience for, Hey, we think you can understand that this is complicated.

00:44:23 ◼   ► And I definitely think it goes back to two years ago with the original Apple intelligence keynote that it was all, I could kind of follow it.

00:44:34 ◼   ► And then you could kind of pick it apart afterwards.

00:44:36 ◼   ► But coming out of the keynote, all of the press was Apple intelligence equals chat GPT.

00:44:42 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:44:43 ◼   ► And which wasn't true because it wouldn't be the, wouldn't have been the two years that they had if it was, but it was like, and they were blown away by that.

00:44:52 ◼   ► They were like, I remember late in the day on keynote day, they were like, why is everybody, you know, confused about this?

00:44:58 ◼   ► And it's like, cause your keynote was a little confusing on this.

00:45:01 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:45:02 ◼   ► Cause you announced that you were partnering with open AI to put chat GPT in Syria in some very confusing way.

00:45:06 ◼   ► And they didn't do the technical, just a diagram of what the architecture looks like.

00:45:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:45:12 ◼   ► Right.

00:45:13 ◼   ► And it's like, Apple used to love making diagrams of how, whether it's like a, a cloud based architecture or just a system architecture, you know, and sometimes they do it.

00:45:21 ◼   ► They've done it with like M series chips and explaining the unified, but they should do more of that.

00:45:26 ◼   ► They're, they're very good at explaining technical things.

00:45:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:45:29 ◼   ► I mean, they got very much into the, everything we make is magic.

00:45:32 ◼   ► Yes.

00:45:33 ◼   ► You know, it's like, well, it's computers.

00:45:34 ◼   ► Like a lot of people at WWDC really understand how computers work.

00:45:37 ◼   ► You can just tell them.

00:45:38 ◼   ► Like here's, this is a very nerdy, a total aside.

00:45:42 ◼   ► I think it's fascinating that they're not using Google's TPUs.

00:45:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:45:46 ◼   ► Right.

00:45:47 ◼   ► Like we just all came from Google IO a few weeks ago.

00:45:49 ◼   ► Google made a huge deal about their TPUs and they're more efficient.

00:45:51 ◼   ► They can bring down the cost curve.

00:45:53 ◼   ► Apple and Nvidia.

00:45:54 ◼   ► I think it's fair to characterize that relationship as open hostility for over a decade.

00:45:58 ◼   ► Or more.

00:45:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:46:00 ◼   ► These companies do not like each other.

00:46:01 ◼   ► And it's because some power books one time overheated and they couldn't decide.

00:46:05 ◼   ► This is true.

00:46:07 ◼   ► And they couldn't decide who should pay for it.

00:46:08 ◼   ► And they're like, well, I guess we'll never talk again.

00:46:10 ◼   ► That's right.

00:46:11 ◼   ► And then Jensen Wang's like, I'm a trillionaire.

00:46:13 ◼   ► And Apple's like, well, I guess we got to talk to that guy again.

00:46:17 ◼   ► But they have a big partnership with Google and I think they picked the architecture that

00:46:22 ◼   ► they think is better.

00:46:23 ◼   ► And that's not-- to the extent that Google uses Nvidia, sure, they have Google Cloud.

00:46:28 ◼   ► Google's-- all of Gemini is about TPUs.

00:46:30 ◼   ► That is the message that Google wants to tell you about Gemini.

00:46:32 ◼   ► Right.

00:46:33 ◼   ► And Apple's like, we actually made a different decision.

00:46:35 ◼   ► And it's a decision that you would not expect them to make given all that history.

00:46:38 ◼   ► You know, you can say a whole bunch of stuff about CapEx and Apple's Nvidia.

00:46:42 ◼   ► All this stuff.

00:46:43 ◼   ► But even that was just-- it was an indication of independence from Google's decisions.

00:46:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:46:49 ◼   ► Yeah, the basic understanding, as I get it, and we'll skip ahead here.

00:46:53 ◼   ► We'll save Siri, but to talk about-- because there is a very big difference between Apple

00:46:57 ◼   ► Intelligence, the new updated 27 OS edition of Apple Intelligence, and Siri, which is sort

00:47:05 ◼   ► of built on top of Apple Intelligence.

00:47:07 ◼   ► But the Tech Talk covered both.

00:47:10 ◼   ► And it was good that they had different people, right?

00:47:12 ◼   ► Rockwell is Siri and Amar, I forget his last name, but he's the new Apple Intelligence.

00:47:20 ◼   ► And he's there, you know, they all work together, but--

00:47:23 ◼   ► But seriously, what is the difference between Siri and Apple Intelligence?

00:47:27 ◼   ► Do they know?

00:47:28 ◼   ► I think they do now.

00:47:30 ◼   ► Do you know?

00:47:31 ◼   ► Yeah, I think I do.

00:47:33 ◼   ► Okay, tell us.

00:47:35 ◼   ► Everyone in-- let's go around.

00:47:37 ◼   ► What is the difference?

00:47:38 ◼   ► One by one.

00:47:39 ◼   ► Someone tell me the difference between Apple Intelligence and Siri.

00:47:41 ◼   ► What you don't know is there's a spotlight and a wrap, so I'm going to pick one of you at random.

00:47:45 ◼   ► Everyone will go around and tell us the difference.

00:47:47 ◼   ► I think Apple Intelligence is the underlying models and APIs.

00:47:53 ◼   ► You know, developers don't write-- third-party developers don't write Siri features.

00:47:58 ◼   ► You can write features like the app intents that integrate with Siri commands, but you're not writing Siri.

00:48:06 ◼   ► You're using Apple Intelligence to do your things.

00:48:11 ◼   ► It's sort of maybe-- sort of like the difference between WebKit and Safari, where developers can integrate WebKit into their apps to do rendering.

00:48:20 ◼   ► And it's like, oh, I could make this view a web view and render it in WebKit, but that doesn't mean you're writing features for Safari.

00:48:28 ◼   ► Right?

00:48:29 ◼   ► Safari is sort of-- and then Safari doesn't exist without WebKit, but that's what Siri is.

00:48:33 ◼   ► Siri is the thing that users see.

00:48:35 ◼   ► So for the most-- but they're out there telling-- I mean, maybe this is a marketing thing, but they've been out there telling people about getting Apple Intelligence.

00:48:42 ◼   ► These phones support Apple Intelligence.

00:48:44 ◼   ► Right, and I think--

00:48:45 ◼   ► Right, but then now you've got Apple Intelligence and Siri, and some features fall under Apple Intelligence, like image playground.

00:48:51 ◼   ► Right.

00:48:52 ◼   ► And writing tools.

00:48:53 ◼   ► Right.

00:48:54 ◼   ► But then you've got Siri, which falls-- like visual intelligence falls under that.

00:48:59 ◼   ► And pretty much every other thing they did falls under Siri.

00:49:04 ◼   ► Well, it does-- the lines blur, I guess.

00:49:07 ◼   ► I mean, don't look at me.

00:49:08 ◼   ► I didn't-- I didn't--

00:49:11 ◼   ► This is where we could use JAWS.

00:49:13 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:49:14 ◼   ► But--

00:49:15 ◼   ► Does he even understand the difference between Apple Intelligence and Siri?

00:49:20 ◼   ► I think--

00:49:21 ◼   ► I guess that there's not the difference.

00:49:22 ◼   ► It's just what-- it's like confusing nomenclature about which is what.

00:49:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:49:27 ◼   ► I think Siri-- and I think the fact that they've made Siri an app now helps clarify that, right?

00:49:34 ◼   ► And it-- 'cause it's like you can go to the app and what's in there is Siri, including even with the camera feature.

00:49:42 ◼   ► I was about to say, in the camera feature, it is getting a little bit clearer.

00:49:45 ◼   ► Right.

00:49:46 ◼   ► Because you go there and you see Siri and you have a bunch of options for Siri.

00:49:49 ◼   ► Right.

00:49:50 ◼   ► Well, all right.

00:49:51 ◼   ► I will go back and we will talk about Siri first.

00:49:53 ◼   ► I was really hoping you would do that because I'm gonna run out of steam here at like three hours.

00:49:59 ◼   ► So, it's one of the neatest little changes and to me it's like it's clear that they rushed-- you know, I think in hindsight, it's pretty obvious that they rushed the announcements two years ago.

00:50:12 ◼   ► But the way it has worked or anybody who doesn't have the beta of iOS 27 on their phone, if you long press on the camera control button, you get visual intelligence.

00:50:24 ◼   ► And it's a totally different experience called visual intelligence.

00:50:27 ◼   ► And it's like you can say, where do I get a red blouse like this?

00:50:31 ◼   ► And you point it at Joanna.

00:50:33 ◼   ► You know, I don't have to point a camera at Neelai.

00:50:38 ◼   ► What color is Neelai wearing today?

00:50:40 ◼   ► Black.

00:50:41 ◼   ► I turned my phone.

00:50:42 ◼   ► Apple intelligence didn't even fire.

00:50:43 ◼   ► But visual intelligence was like its own thing.

00:50:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:50:46 ◼   ► And the only way you get it was side holding the button.

00:50:48 ◼   ► And what they've done with iOS 27 is if you just click the button, you get the camera app in the regular take a photo mode.

00:50:56 ◼   ► And if you long press it, it opens the camera app and the little mode, video, photo, there's a new Siri mode.

00:51:04 ◼   ► And that just is selected by default.

00:51:06 ◼   ► And it's the camera button.

00:51:08 ◼   ► And then if you're like accidentally pressed the button too long because you wanted to launch the camera.

00:51:13 ◼   ► I mean, this happens to me a lot.

00:51:15 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:51:16 ◼   ► Is you just want to launch the camera and you're like, oh, now I've got a dedicated camera button on my phone.

00:51:20 ◼   ► But you hold it too long.

00:51:21 ◼   ► You're in visual intelligence and you're missing the shot you wanted.

00:51:24 ◼   ► Now you just slide it over back to photo and you're there.

00:51:27 ◼   ► But when you take the photo and you say like, where do I, what kind of red blouse is Joanna wearing?

00:51:33 ◼   ► That goes to the Siri app then and you can go back and it's in there like a chat.

00:51:38 ◼   ► It's, it is, it's all in, if it's not a chat in the Siri app, it's not Siri.

00:51:44 ◼   ► I was testing this today and I think it's great.

00:51:47 ◼   ► Like, and it's, and it's prompting too.

00:51:50 ◼   ► I was testing the receipt feature, the split the bill feature.

00:51:54 ◼   ► And, and so you just like, it's prompting too, for more things in there that you're able to do.

00:51:59 ◼   ► So I think this is, I totally, it was buried before.

00:52:03 ◼   ► I think there was, if people knew about it, it's because they read someone or they saw someone

00:52:07 ◼   ► that could do it or they saw it in the screenshots, right?

00:52:10 ◼   ► Cause it was really, it's when you would take a screenshot, it's really clear in that interface

00:52:15 ◼   ► that you can use the visual intelligence to search.

00:52:18 ◼   ► And I think the way they have it right now integrated in the camera app, it's really smart.

00:52:23 ◼   ► Yeah, I do too.

00:52:24 ◼   ► I think it's much more thoughtful.

00:52:26 ◼   ► You know, I did, they haven't spent the two years doing nothing.

00:52:31 ◼   ► They've spent them thinking like, well, how should this be?

00:52:34 ◼   ► And I do think too, as pervasive as the Siri and the Apple intelligent features are throughout

00:52:40 ◼   ► the 27 versions of the OS, they are, they do not seem to me shotguns like the stuff at Google

00:52:48 ◼   ► IO in particular, Gemini, Gemini, Gemini, Gemini and Microsoft too.

00:52:52 ◼   ► I mean, it's co-pilot, co-pilot, co-pilot.

00:52:54 ◼   ► Everything's co-pilot.

00:52:55 ◼   ► I mean, somebody counted up how many co-pilots Microsoft has and it seems like an SNL skit.

00:53:00 ◼   ► It's like, it's like they've got like over a hundred.

00:53:03 ◼   ► There's like a hundred different co-pilots or something like that.

00:53:05 ◼   ► And Apple's is much, especially now it's much more thoughtful.

00:53:09 ◼   ► Well, so Google has like the entire vision of the future of computing.

00:53:14 ◼   ► Microsoft has the same vision, but they are Microsoft.

00:53:17 ◼   ► They're just like fundamentally less coherent.

00:53:21 ◼   ► Just who they are.

00:53:23 ◼   ► Google's like, all right, we can do everything for you.

00:53:27 ◼   ► You just want to tell us what to do?

00:53:29 ◼   ► Like we have access to the entire web.

00:53:32 ◼   ► We can, we run Chrome.

00:53:34 ◼   ► We'll just run Chrome on Google Cloud, which we also own.

00:53:36 ◼   ► We'll do that on your behalf and we'll click on the web for you.

00:53:39 ◼   ► Why don't you, why don't you just buy some shit?

00:53:41 ◼   ► Right and like that every Google AI demo ends in a transaction.

00:53:45 ◼   ► Like just every single one is like, and now you've purchased the shoes.

00:53:50 ◼   ► In fact, a robot has purchased many shoes for you.

00:53:53 ◼   ► Apple doesn't have that.

00:53:55 ◼   ► They don't have this like end to end control of every single thing that will happen.

00:53:58 ◼   ► They do on your device, but they didn't announce this like sweeping vision of the future of computing.

00:54:03 ◼   ► Because I don't think they want to disrupt the app model.

00:54:05 ◼   ► They don't want to irritate all of you in like very serious ways.

00:54:08 ◼   ► Like everyone needs to make money on Apple's devices in a very specific way.

00:54:11 ◼   ► I think Google would love it if they disrupted the app model, right?

00:54:14 ◼   ► And everything was happening on the web and Google's cloud and other ways.

00:54:18 ◼   ► I think Apple has to be protective of it.

00:54:20 ◼   ► So the things they picked, you know, if you just kind of look at the list, you're like,

00:54:23 ◼   ► Oh, you are at free chat GPT about two years ago, right?

00:54:27 ◼   ► This is about the class of capabilities they've added very thoughtfully, right?

00:54:31 ◼   ► They now have a lot of data about what people are actually using these apps for, about what people want to do.

00:54:36 ◼   ► And it is take a picture of a flower and tell me how not to kill it.

00:54:39 ◼   ► And they will deliver that experience to you.

00:54:41 ◼   ► And if you will notice every single Apple demo ended with planning a trip.

00:54:46 ◼   ► They're like, get out of your house.

00:54:48 ◼   ► Like just leave.

00:54:49 ◼   ► It also added with planning a party.

00:54:52 ◼   ► Yes.

00:54:53 ◼   ► You're planning.

00:54:54 ◼   ► So at some point you're going to make a list.

00:54:55 ◼   ► You are planning a party for the world cup.

00:54:57 ◼   ► Yes.

00:54:58 ◼   ► You are planning a party for a recipe of cookies.

00:55:01 ◼   ► Lots of recipes.

00:55:02 ◼   ► There's a lot of like, you have a lot of friends and you need to make a party thing.

00:55:07 ◼   ► There was one demo I got yesterday where they were like, and we've made the list of things you might need for the camping trip.

00:55:13 ◼   ► And I was like, are you going to...

00:55:14 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:55:15 ◼   ► I love that one.

00:55:16 ◼   ► And I was like, are you going to plan the trip?

00:55:17 ◼   ► And I'm like, no.

00:55:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:55:19 ◼   ► I love that one because I have taken my son camping recently and I wouldn't do like any of that back and forth.

00:55:29 ◼   ► But it was an example of, I don't need to have a lot of friends or a lot of money to take a trip.

00:55:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:55:36 ◼   ► I can just have camping supplies and get out of my house.

00:55:39 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:55:40 ◼   ► Just you, Siri and your family.

00:55:41 ◼   ► And you're going to make a plan together and you're going to leave.

00:55:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:55:44 ◼   ► My view of this, and this is what I was saying earlier about Sherlocking, free-chat-shvt.

00:55:48 ◼   ► If you think, and I think the big AI companies really believe this.

00:55:52 ◼   ► If you think this is the new paradigm of computing, this is the platform change, which I think all their CEOs have said.

00:55:58 ◼   ► This is the platform change.

00:55:59 ◼   ► We're going to talk to our computers.

00:56:00 ◼   ► They're going to take action on every half.

00:56:02 ◼   ► They're going to do agentic stuff, whatever is going to happen.

00:56:04 ◼   ► And that will disrupt the app model.

00:56:06 ◼   ► It will get them all the way from the app attacks, all that stuff.

00:56:08 ◼   ► It might disrupt the phone entirely.

00:56:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:56:11 ◼   ► Well, then the tip of the spear is the free chat bot on your phone.

00:56:14 ◼   ► Right.

00:56:15 ◼   ► Right.

00:56:16 ◼   ► And if you're opening free-chat-shvt, not yet, a billion users a week are opening free-chat-shvt

00:56:19 ◼   ► and doing something.

00:56:21 ◼   ► And if OpenAI just layers on one more set of capabilities.

00:56:24 ◼   ► If Google can get you to open Gemini somewhere at some time.

00:56:28 ◼   ► Right.

00:56:29 ◼   ► Just desperately, please click on this sparkle.

00:56:31 ◼   ► And they can get you to use it.

00:56:33 ◼   ► And then they can layer on another capability.

00:56:35 ◼   ► And then eventually they're like, would you just like a weird pendant?

00:56:39 ◼   ► You can just talk to that.

00:56:42 ◼   ► They can get you there.

00:56:43 ◼   ► And if Apple Sherlock's that.

00:56:46 ◼   ► If they build that thing into the operating system in a way that's good and convenient.

00:56:51 ◼   ► Camera opens to Siri visual intelligence instead of you opening Google Lens or whatever it is.

00:56:57 ◼   ► They can preclude that next step for all these other companies.

00:57:01 ◼   ► And I think that's why these things were limited.

00:57:03 ◼   ► Right.

00:57:04 ◼   ► They weren't big, agentic, sweeping, we're going to click on the apps for you.

00:57:07 ◼   ► But they're going to keep you from opening those free apps.

00:57:10 ◼   ► I agree with that.

00:57:12 ◼   ► But I've been using it for the last 12 hours.

00:57:15 ◼   ► And I do think their vision is a little bit different.

00:57:18 ◼   ► Which is their differentiator.

00:57:20 ◼   ► Which is that we know AI is only as good as the data it has.

00:57:23 ◼   ► Right.

00:57:24 ◼   ► And Apple has our data.

00:57:26 ◼   ► Our personal data.

00:57:28 ◼   ► And that was the promise two years ago.

00:57:31 ◼   ► That has honestly been the promise since the beginning of Siri.

00:57:34 ◼   ► A personal assistant.

00:57:36 ◼   ► And now they can actually do that better.

00:57:39 ◼   ► If you're an iPhone user.

00:57:40 ◼   ► If you're in that ecosystem.

00:57:42 ◼   ► And then, to your point, layer that on top of the free chat.

00:57:46 ◼   ► Right.

00:57:47 ◼   ► The free chat GPT.

00:57:48 ◼   ► Which, you know, people are talking about.

00:57:50 ◼   ► Oh, my chat.

00:57:51 ◼   ► My chat.

00:57:52 ◼   ► Okay.

00:57:53 ◼   ► Can chat do what Siri can do?

00:57:54 ◼   ► Okay.

00:57:55 ◼   ► Great.

00:57:56 ◼   ► Plus now this access.

00:57:58 ◼   ► And that's where I was not really clear on it from the presentation.

00:58:02 ◼   ► And they like, you said like, you know, everyone's got their vision of the future of computing.

00:58:08 ◼   ► Playing with it in the last, you know, few hours.

00:58:11 ◼   ► I see it now.

00:58:12 ◼   ► So is your testing phone.

00:58:14 ◼   ► You're obviously you've installed iOS 27.

00:58:16 ◼   ► And you got through to get the new Siri.

00:58:19 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

00:58:20 ◼   ► See, I did not get through yet.

00:58:22 ◼   ► But I don't think it's any conspiracy.

00:58:24 ◼   ► I'm sorry for you, John.

00:58:25 ◼   ► It seems.

00:58:26 ◼   ► I think they're gating it.

00:58:28 ◼   ► I, you know.

00:58:29 ◼   ► Yeah, it's.

00:58:30 ◼   ► They, I can't say, but the words personal, personal compute cloud.

00:58:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:58:36 ◼   ► Personal, whatever it is.

00:58:37 ◼   ► PCC, they kept saying PCC.

00:58:38 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:58:39 ◼   ► And I keep thinking it's PCC.

00:58:40 ◼   ► The words PCC is on fire were like overheard by me yesterday.

00:58:43 ◼   ► Yes.

00:58:44 ◼   ► Because like everyone, all of you downloaded users.

00:58:46 ◼   ► I mean, they're just sort of gating access.

00:58:47 ◼   ► Did yours also finish.

00:58:49 ◼   ► Private cloud computing.

00:58:50 ◼   ► Finish indexing.

00:58:51 ◼   ► It, I don't know if it's finished.

00:58:52 ◼   ► Let me check.

00:58:53 ◼   ► All right.

00:58:54 ◼   ► But it was still indexing this morning.

00:58:56 ◼   ► Right.

00:58:57 ◼   ► But it's been, it's, it's been indexed.

00:59:00 ◼   ► I mean, it's indexing is still in progress, but it's still.

00:59:03 ◼   ► Has some of it.

00:59:04 ◼   ► It has a ton of it.

00:59:05 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:59:06 ◼   ► I mean, just to give you an example that I was really blown away by just because it worked,

00:59:11 ◼   ► but I like, it's hard because you're just like, wow, this, this finally works.

00:59:15 ◼   ► And you're trying to, what is really great here is just that it finally works or is this actually

00:59:19 ◼   ► great?

00:59:20 ◼   ► But I'll tell you the example and we can decide if we think it's great.

00:59:23 ◼   ► You texted us, I don't know, a week ago about this.

00:59:27 ◼   ► Right.

00:59:28 ◼   ► And we've had a lot of, we had a group text and we've had a lot of texts since then about

00:59:33 ◼   ► Lord knows.

00:59:34 ◼   ► And today I genuinely did not put this on my calendar.

00:59:37 ◼   ► And I just said, Siri, please tell me when I'm supposed to be at John's thing tonight.

00:59:43 ◼   ► And it said, it found your text message and said, John Gruber's presentation starts at

00:59:50 ◼   ► seven o'clock tonight at the California theater.

00:59:53 ◼   ► He says you should get there at six o'clock.

00:59:55 ◼   ► And it brought up that message.

00:59:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:59:58 ◼   ► It's the real deal.

01:00:00 ◼   ► And I was like, wow, that saved me the time to go scrolling back.

01:00:06 ◼   ► I went back and I did check to confirm that you really did want me here at six o'clock.

01:00:10 ◼   ► I was not here at six o'clock to be clear.

01:00:13 ◼   ► And I was like, wow, it worked.

01:00:16 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:00:17 ◼   ► By the way, compared to any previous attempt to search iMessage, staggering improvement.

01:00:22 ◼   ► Yes.

01:00:23 ◼   ► That is true.

01:00:24 ◼   ► The phone did not explode.

01:00:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:00:26 ◼   ► And I didn't get like from seven years ago, John wanted you at an event.

01:00:31 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:00:32 ◼   ► But I think that, that access to that data, that personal, and it said, right?

01:00:38 ◼   ► This wasn't on my calendar.

01:00:40 ◼   ► I think that is their vision.

01:00:43 ◼   ► So here's the dance that I think is really interesting, right?

01:00:45 ◼   ► That you're talking about messages.

01:00:47 ◼   ► Obviously Apple has access to your messages.

01:00:49 ◼   ► Are you an Apple mail user?

01:00:50 ◼   ► No, but I, no, but today I realized-

01:00:53 ◼   ► Now you're like, you're going to get reeled in.

01:00:54 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm not.

01:00:55 ◼   ► Well-

01:00:56 ◼   ► The return of iMap by Joanna Stern.

01:00:57 ◼   ► Yeah, but there are some ways to get around it that I'm trying to figure out.

01:01:01 ◼   ► So what I think is really interesting is if you look at what's happening in Android right

01:01:05 ◼   ► now, for example.

01:01:06 ◼   ► Google's like, we're going to do agentic stuff.

01:01:08 ◼   ► And maybe you can use whatever Android hooks to open your app to MCP in the way that Google

01:01:14 ◼   ► wants you to use it.

01:01:15 ◼   ► Agentic stuff.

01:01:16 ◼   ► Something will happen.

01:01:17 ◼   ► Or if you don't do that, Google's like, here's what we're going to do.

01:01:20 ◼   ► We're going to virtualize Uber.

01:01:21 ◼   ► We're going to run it in the background.

01:01:22 ◼   ► And we're going to click around in it until we go what you want.

01:01:26 ◼   ► And if you don't open your app to us, we'll just do it.

01:01:28 ◼   ► And you kind of ask them about it.

01:01:30 ◼   ► Yes, Samir runs Android.

01:01:31 ◼   ► Like, are they cool with that?

01:01:32 ◼   ► And I'm like, well, what are they going to do?

01:01:34 ◼   ► That's kind of their vibe.

01:01:35 ◼   ► Like, well, your app's on our phone.

01:01:37 ◼   ► And have you heard of Gemini?

01:01:38 ◼   ► Gemini can do it.

01:01:39 ◼   ► So we're going to do it.

01:01:41 ◼   ► And so you get all the way to, well, maybe we can just open Instagram and scroll through

01:01:46 ◼   ► your Instagram DMs.

01:01:47 ◼   ► And maybe we can open whatever other mail app you have.

01:01:50 ◼   ► And they've just got a framework for the data's in the apps.

01:01:53 ◼   ► The apps are on the phone.

01:01:54 ◼   ► We have Gemini.

01:01:55 ◼   ► Gemini's going to do that.

01:01:56 ◼   ► I think if Apple did that on the iPhone, it would be nuclear war.

01:02:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:02:01 ◼   ► And straight up, it would break the promise in all of the data that would make Siri useful

01:02:06 ◼   ► across the board.

01:02:07 ◼   ► They've got to get at it somehow.

01:02:08 ◼   ► Right.

01:02:09 ◼   ► I don't think Meta is going to open your Instagram DMs to being indexed by the new Spotlight.

01:02:13 ◼   ► And I think this is just going to be one of these weird points of friction where I think

01:02:17 ◼   ► Google just has way more license to do whatever it wants with apps on Android.

01:02:21 ◼   ► Because generally, Android developers are like, oh my god, we're here.

01:02:24 ◼   ► Someone's using our app.

01:02:30 ◼   ► It's a robot.

01:02:31 ◼   ► It's like there's just too much money at stake in the App Store model for Apple to break the

01:02:40 ◼   ► fundamental promises in that way.

01:02:42 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:02:43 ◼   ► And it does come...

01:02:44 ◼   ► There's different ways of thinking about privacy.

01:02:47 ◼   ► And Google and Meta, to name the two companies that make the most money, massive amounts of money,

01:02:53 ◼   ► quarter after quarter, from advertising that is based on their profiles of the users and showing...

01:03:03 ◼   ► Right.

01:03:04 ◼   ► ...ads that are based on your interests.

01:03:06 ◼   ► They keep that incredibly private to themselves, right?

01:03:10 ◼   ► Like, and my friend Ben Thompson often emphasizes that they don't sell your information to advertisers.

01:03:16 ◼   ► They wouldn't sell that information to anybody because that's the goldmine.

01:03:20 ◼   ► The goldmine is that they're the only ones who have it.

01:03:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:03:23 ◼   ► They use it to figure out which ads to show you which are...

01:03:26 ◼   ► Okay.

01:03:27 ◼   ► So, in some sense, their platforms are private.

01:03:30 ◼   ► If you trust Google and you put all of your information in Gmail and Google Calendar and stuff,

01:03:35 ◼   ► Google knows all of your stuff and Google has your stuff.

01:03:39 ◼   ► And the distinction Apple, I can't even...

01:03:41 ◼   ► If I counted it in the last 48 hours, how many times somebody at Apple emphasized the fact...

01:03:47 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:03:48 ◼   ► ...that Apple doesn't have your information.

01:03:51 ◼   ► It's on your phone, but it never goes...

01:03:54 ◼   ► Like, when you're using Apple Intelligence and Siri, it doesn't go to them in a way that they ever keep it.

01:03:59 ◼   ► And even when it goes to private cloud compute, it goes there, they send as little as possible.

01:04:05 ◼   ► That was part of the technical explanation.

01:04:07 ◼   ► They figure out how to send as little as possible.

01:04:10 ◼   ► It goes there, they compute the answer, they send the answer back, and they burn all records of the interaction.

01:04:16 ◼   ► There's nothing there.

01:04:17 ◼   ► It's on device.

01:04:18 ◼   ► And it is a totally different way of thinking about it.

01:04:22 ◼   ► And it is, you know, it's a vision they laid out two years ago.

01:04:26 ◼   ► I think it is more clear now.

01:04:28 ◼   ► But that is the upside for, hey, how does Apple thrive in a post-AI world where normal people's interactions with their computing devices?

01:04:40 ◼   ► And computing devices are almost all of our devices.

01:04:43 ◼   ► I'd be surprised if this doesn't have a chip in it somewhere.

01:04:46 ◼   ► That actually is 10 times more expensive because that's 32 gigs of RAM.

01:04:49 ◼   ► Yes, exactly right.

01:04:50 ◼   ► I should crack it and steal the RAM when we're done recording the show.

01:04:56 ◼   ► They're even saying it now.

01:05:01 ◼   ► We worked with Google to use Google's models.

01:05:03 ◼   ► They are not a model company.

01:05:05 ◼   ► They are famously, everybody is talking about the fact that the other big companies are spending hundreds of billions of dollars on CapEx for data center AI infrastructure.

01:05:17 ◼   ► And Apple's CapEx hasn't changed.

01:05:20 ◼   ► I mean, it's gone up, but it hasn't spiked since AI started.

01:05:23 ◼   ► Well, they sort of like reallocated $10 billion of ill-fated car CapEx.

01:05:28 ◼   ► But 10 billion, the whole thing, everybody, the whole project tightened.

01:05:32 ◼   ► Let's say it did cost 10 billion.

01:05:34 ◼   ► That's nothing compared to the CapEx these other companies are spending on AI.

01:05:37 ◼   ► Apple's not doing it.

01:05:38 ◼   ► So what's the upside for Apple?

01:05:40 ◼   ► The upside is they have a billion plus users with all of this device, all this information on the AI.

01:05:46 ◼   ► Apple's not doing it.

01:05:47 ◼   ► They have a billion plus users, all this information on their phones, spread across who knows how many apps, you know.

01:05:52 ◼   ► And well, somebody does counting them in the app store.

01:05:55 ◼   ► But it is that app store model where your notes app may not be Apple notes.

01:05:59 ◼   ► You don't have to be all in on the Apple ecosystem.

01:06:02 ◼   ► You could be a good notes user or bear or literally, I trust me.

01:06:07 ◼   ► I was in the racket.

01:06:08 ◼   ► There are thousands of notes apps in the app store.

01:06:11 ◼   ► And if they do the stuff with app intense and the app schema, your notes from that app will be available to Apple intelligence and Siri.

01:06:21 ◼   ► You don't have to do it Apple's way in Apple notes.

01:06:24 ◼   ► You can do it.

01:06:25 ◼   ► And you'll be able to ask questions about what's in your notes.

01:06:28 ◼   ► And the other as less capable that Siri is as a chat bot compared to the others.

01:06:35 ◼   ► It has access to data that the others cannot have.

01:06:38 ◼   ► And I think this is a new level of trust that's going to be coming.

01:06:42 ◼   ► Once people see, once people have the experience that I had today with you, with this small example, right?

01:06:50 ◼   ► It was pretty innocuous, right?

01:06:51 ◼   ► It's like, I just, it told me the time I need to be here, but there's more information in our texts and there's more information that we want to surface.

01:06:59 ◼   ► And so people are going to have to have a new level of trust with Siri because it will surface that.

01:07:04 ◼   ► Even when I was just talking here before, I forget what I asked in the car before coming in here.

01:07:09 ◼   ► I said, what could I do that's fun near the California theater?

01:07:12 ◼   ► I have some time to kill.

01:07:14 ◼   ► And I don't know if, I don't know exactly what was the prompt or what was the thing, but it started suggesting things I could do locally,

01:07:20 ◼   ► but also it had access to my voicemail.

01:07:23 ◼   ► So it knew that I had just gotten a message from my uncle who asked me to speak at his book club.

01:07:29 ◼   ► And it said, you could get back to my, your uncle about his book club engagement.

01:07:34 ◼   ► You would have some time to do that.

01:07:37 ◼   ► Okay.

01:07:38 ◼   ► That's crazy.

01:07:39 ◼   ► It really is.

01:07:41 ◼   ► Right.

01:07:42 ◼   ► But what if that was sensitive information?

01:07:44 ◼   ► Right.

01:07:45 ◼   ► Right.

01:07:46 ◼   ► I also have a very funny group chat with some friends and I was like, shit, I don't want that.

01:07:49 ◼   ► Right.

01:07:50 ◼   ► Even actually funny enough, we have some things.

01:07:53 ◼   ► We probably in our group chat, we wouldn't want to be public.

01:07:56 ◼   ► And when it's not bad, but you know, maybe we wouldn't want.

01:07:59 ◼   ► It's not pictures.

01:08:00 ◼   ► We wouldn't want apple to see it.

01:08:01 ◼   ► Right.

01:08:02 ◼   ► We went away.

01:08:03 ◼   ► We want it to be public.

01:08:04 ◼   ► And I was filming this video today.

01:08:05 ◼   ► And I was like, Oh, please don't.

01:08:06 ◼   ► Please don't.

01:08:07 ◼   ► Please Siri, do not talk.

01:08:08 ◼   ► Please, please do not say that out loud.

01:08:10 ◼   ► Right.

01:08:11 ◼   ► And so there's going to be this new level of trust with that access to that data.

01:08:15 ◼   ► And so I think it, we can, it was, it goes back to that tech, tech talk.

01:08:20 ◼   ► That is what they want us to know.

01:08:22 ◼   ► Right.

01:08:23 ◼   ► That they are not the Googles.

01:08:24 ◼   ► They are not the open AIs or the metas that are trying to make money.

01:08:27 ◼   ► I mean, Craig said, I'm not going to sell you Thai food ads.

01:08:31 ◼   ► Right.

01:08:32 ◼   ► I mean, this is like the fundamental paradox of this entire app store model.

01:08:39 ◼   ► People buy iPhones and then they load up and all the data is secure.

01:08:43 ◼   ► It's the most private phone in the world.

01:08:44 ◼   ► And then the first thing they do is they download Instagram and then they experience Instagram.

01:08:48 ◼   ► And they're like, this phone's listening to me.

01:08:50 ◼   ► Like a hundred percent.

01:08:51 ◼   ► What are you going to do?

01:08:52 ◼   ► Like you load up a bunch of apps from Google, right?

01:08:55 ◼   ► You get an iPhone and you put YouTube and Instagram on it.

01:08:58 ◼   ► And like, well, I guess these companies know a lot about you.

01:09:01 ◼   ► Google's position is that YouTube is their interest crap.

01:09:06 ◼   ► They know what you're interested in because they have access to your YouTube account.

01:09:09 ◼   ► They know what you're watching.

01:09:10 ◼   ► Now they know your interest.

01:09:11 ◼   ► They can feed that personal context in the Gemini.

01:09:13 ◼   ► I heard that and I was like, you don't know shit about me.

01:09:16 ◼   ► Right?

01:09:17 ◼   ► Like my YouTube is mostly like trucks jumping over stuff, which is a huge part of my personality.

01:09:22 ◼   ► Like does not actually encompass like my full person.

01:09:26 ◼   ► There's just a real tension in how people actually use these devices.

01:09:31 ◼   ► The apps they actually have on them.

01:09:33 ◼   ► And their experience in privacy.

01:09:35 ◼   ► The other example I'll give to you.

01:09:36 ◼   ► You know, Photos has a search in it today.

01:09:39 ◼   ► And every like, I don't know, 18 months on the clock, there's like a little mini social media scandal.

01:09:44 ◼   ► And people realize they can just type underwear into the photo search and they can pull up a bunch of photos themselves in the underwear.

01:09:49 ◼   ► And they're like, Apple has indexed all these photos.

01:09:51 ◼   ► Right.

01:09:52 ◼   ► And it's like the dumbest visual semantic search of all time.

01:09:55 ◼   ► And everyone's like, this is a terrifying security breach.

01:09:57 ◼   ► You're going to do that with Siri now.

01:09:59 ◼   ► Right.

01:10:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:10:01 ◼   ► It just like wide access.

01:10:02 ◼   ► And like the level of trust is going to go, Apple's going to have to earn that trust back in very serious ways.

01:10:08 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:10:09 ◼   ► And it's because Apple knows what their software does.

01:10:12 ◼   ► Apple truly does know that their software doesn't keep a dossier of pictures of you in your underwear in the cloud that they can like look at and read that it really is just on your device.

01:10:24 ◼   ► And even the stuff like my pictures of you guys and it knows that's Joanna and knows that's Neelai, that those indexes are per device.

01:10:33 ◼   ► The photos sync between devices and then each device is like, oh, let me figure out who the faces are.

01:10:38 ◼   ► And that is definitely what's going on with the indexing in iOS 27.

01:10:42 ◼   ► Yep.

01:10:43 ◼   ► So you install it on your phone.

01:10:44 ◼   ► It takes days to index all your information and then you install it on your iPad.

01:10:48 ◼   ► Well, then it's going to take days to index there because it doesn't just transfer the index up and then transfer it down, which would be quicker, but is less private.

01:10:58 ◼   ► And it is.

01:10:59 ◼   ► It really is.

01:11:00 ◼   ► But do people believe it?

01:11:01 ◼   ► Right.

01:11:02 ◼   ► And the funny thing I often say, I mean, I think everybody here, probably everybody in the audience has this conversation or with enough people in the audience, some of them probably do believe your phones listen, but they don't.

01:11:13 ◼   ► And you can download Instagram, put it on a fresh phone.

01:11:17 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:11:18 ◼   ► I'm trying to work on this story.

01:11:21 ◼   ► My explanation of this is that no, but what people think is, people think it's listening because they could understand.

01:11:27 ◼   ► Well, I was talking about it.

01:11:29 ◼   ► And if it was listening, that would explain how it showed me this uncannily similar ad to what I was talking about.

01:11:36 ◼   ► They understand that chain of events.

01:11:38 ◼   ► I talked about it.

01:11:39 ◼   ► If it was listening, then it showed me the ad.

01:11:42 ◼   ► And my explanation is, oh, what's really going on is so much more complicated and creepier, so much creepier than if it were you wish it were listening to you.

01:11:52 ◼   ► Like you said, because then you all you would have to do is walk away from your phone to talk about a thing that you definitely don't want to be indexed about.

01:12:00 ◼   ► But the way that it knows your interests and what you pause on as you're scrolling and what you play and all that, they know so much more.

01:12:07 ◼   ► They don't need that.

01:12:08 ◼   ► They like laugh at the idea of trying to circumvent the green light that comes on if they were going to try to listen to you.

01:12:14 ◼   ► It's worse.

01:12:15 ◼   ► Do you need to follow Adam Seri on Instagram?

01:12:17 ◼   ► Highly recommend it.

01:12:18 ◼   ► This man is just like haunted by the success of Meta's ad network.

01:12:21 ◼   ► Like literally once a month, he's like, I'm not listening to you because he does a Q&A every Friday.

01:12:26 ◼   ► And most of them are good and they're just like in the creators and he's like, here's how try all of those work.

01:12:29 ◼   ► And then like once a month, he's like, all right, so many of you have asked if we're listening to you and we're not.

01:12:36 ◼   ► And all the comments are like, yeah, you are.

01:12:38 ◼   ► And you're just like, well, clock's ticking.

01:12:40 ◼   ► Like it's been 30 days since you did not listening thing again.

01:12:44 ◼   ► It's sort of like a stage mentalist or magician where like, who's that guy?

01:12:51 ◼   ► He did the, it was supposed to do the correspondence dinner.

01:12:54 ◼   ► But yeah, that guy canceled, but or like Kreskin back in the day.

01:12:57 ◼   ► And it's like, if you do an amazing enough trick of what number you're thinking of, or I'm going to guess the combination to your locker at the gym.

01:13:08 ◼   ► And it's like, holy shit.

01:13:10 ◼   ► It's, you know, 12, 37, 14.

01:13:12 ◼   ► It really is.

01:13:13 ◼   ► There's a lot of people are like, that guy really does have mental powers.

01:13:17 ◼   ► Right.

01:13:18 ◼   ► Because that's the only way they can imagine it.

01:13:19 ◼   ► And no, it's just a series of tricks, you know, but.

01:13:22 ◼   ► But this is going to be, to Joanna's point, this will be the experience.

01:13:25 ◼   ► Many people have a series.

01:13:26 ◼   ► Right.

01:13:27 ◼   ► It does have tons and tons of data from.

01:13:29 ◼   ► Right.

01:13:30 ◼   ► Just even just your iMessages.

01:13:31 ◼   ► Right.

01:13:32 ◼   ► And like, do you remember every iMessage that you've ever sent?

01:13:34 ◼   ► No.

01:13:35 ◼   ► Right.

01:13:36 ◼   ► It's going to remember iMessages you don't remember sending and Apple Notes you've made in 2017.

01:13:41 ◼   ► There were so many moments today where, again, small things.

01:13:45 ◼   ► I'm like, how did you know that?

01:13:47 ◼   ► And it actually works.

01:13:49 ◼   ► I mean, that I do like when I was able to do follow up questions, say, how did you know that?

01:13:53 ◼   ► And it would point to the message or point to.

01:13:55 ◼   ► That's pretty good.

01:13:56 ◼   ► The one that they did not explain to me, but I'm very curious about, is when it goes out to the web.

01:14:02 ◼   ► Right.

01:14:03 ◼   ► And like, here's some stuff I found on the web for you.

01:14:05 ◼   ► And I'm going to summarize this web page.

01:14:06 ◼   ► I'll make you a table.

01:14:08 ◼   ► Is Apple indexing the web?

01:14:10 ◼   ► That would be like huge news if Apple suddenly had a web index.

01:14:12 ◼   ► Right.

01:14:13 ◼   ► They used Bing and the old Siri.

01:14:15 ◼   ► They're not using Google as they've taken great pains to explain.

01:14:19 ◼   ► Right.

01:14:19 ◼   ► So where is that coming from?

01:14:20 ◼   ► Are they going to participate in the like.

01:14:22 ◼   ► Isn't this the Apple bot saying that.

01:14:24 ◼   ► Right.

01:14:25 ◼   ► But do they maintain an ongoing crawl of the web?

01:14:27 ◼   ► This is a very intensive thing to do.

01:14:29 ◼   ► And is that Apple bot crawl of the web better and broader than we've thought?

01:14:34 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:14:35 ◼   ► Do they have an index that rivals Google somewhere in the back?

01:14:38 ◼   ► Right.

01:14:39 ◼   ► And they have been using it for years.

01:14:40 ◼   ► If you use Safari.

01:14:41 ◼   ► Right.

01:14:42 ◼   ► For the auto suggestions at the top of the auto suggestion list.

01:14:45 ◼   ► That they come from Apple, not from Google or whoever your default search provider is.

01:14:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:14:50 ◼   ► Which is probably.

01:14:51 ◼   ► And hasn't that also been what the Siri results have been?

01:14:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:14:54 ◼   ► Right.

01:14:55 ◼   ► But the bigger index was Bing.

01:14:56 ◼   ► At least for the past several years.

01:14:58 ◼   ► Right.

01:14:59 ◼   ► So again, they're just like, where's all this data coming from?

01:15:02 ◼   ► Is Apple going to suddenly participate in the, we read all the web pages.

01:15:05 ◼   ► And we're not sending any traffic debate that all the other providers are caught up in.

01:15:08 ◼   ► Are they going to get sued by a bunch of authors because they're summarizing the books?

01:15:12 ◼   ► One thing.

01:15:13 ◼   ► There's a lot of that that is, I think, to come.

01:15:15 ◼   ► I do like that this, they're doing some better job at sourcing than ChatGPT or Claude and Siri.

01:15:21 ◼   ► They're, especially on the audio when you're asking it, the new Siri, when you ask it questions,

01:15:25 ◼   ► it's saying the source out loud.

01:15:27 ◼   ► Oh, interesting.

01:15:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:15:29 ◼   ► One of the weird things are unexpected is they seemingly have, or they're like stepping

01:15:36 ◼   ► away from the extension system for Siri, which two years ago debuted with ChatGPT as an official

01:15:42 ◼   ► partner and led to the whole conflation of, oh, that Apple intelligence is ChatGPT.

01:15:48 ◼   ► And day one, two years ago, Craig Federighi did the interview with iJustine and said, it was him and John Andrea, and said right there, like 90 minutes after the keynote.

01:16:01 ◼   ► And who knows?

01:16:02 ◼   ► Maybe we'll have a partner like Google.

01:16:03 ◼   ► They've got good AI.

01:16:04 ◼   ► You know, we'll build on this.

01:16:05 ◼   ► Well, here we are two years later, and it's still just ChatGPT.

01:16:08 ◼   ► And they're not talking about it.

01:16:10 ◼   ► And there doesn't seem to be any kind of API for anybody else to add an extension like that.

01:16:16 ◼   ► And they've been very clear talking to me multiple briefings over the last two days that while ChatGPT is still a partner.

01:16:23 ◼   ► If you want, you have to opt in.

01:16:24 ◼   ► You have to go into settings.

01:16:25 ◼   ► It is like kind of more buried.

01:16:27 ◼   ► It's so I found it.

01:16:28 ◼   ► It's not easy to find.

01:16:29 ◼   ► Right.

01:16:30 ◼   ► I found it.

01:16:31 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:16:32 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:16:33 ◼   ► And you have to specifically say, I want to ask ChatGPT.

01:16:36 ◼   ► Right.

01:16:37 ◼   ► So when you talk to Siri, it used to be, or if you're still on iOS 26, if you ask a complicated question, Siri is like, I give up.

01:16:44 ◼   ► I'm going to go to ChatGPT because you've allowed me to, and it'll go to ChatGPT.

01:16:48 ◼   ► That never happens with the Siri AI.

01:16:51 ◼   ► No matter how complicated the question, it's going to try to answer it itself unless you say, ask ChatGPT, blah, blah, blah.

01:16:59 ◼   ► No one is ever using ChatGPT in the new Siri.

01:17:02 ◼   ► Right.

01:17:03 ◼   ► Sam Altman, when he gets his new iOS.

01:17:05 ◼   ► Just like angrily being like, ask me.

01:17:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:17:08 ◼   ► Apple, you know, it's--

01:17:09 ◼   ► He's going to be like, where is it?

01:17:10 ◼   ► And then he's going to find it.

01:17:11 ◼   ► He's going to be the only person.

01:17:12 ◼   ► I mean, there are rumors that OpenAI is, you know, riling itself up to file a lawsuit for breach of contract for all this stuff.

01:17:18 ◼   ► Again, the--

01:17:19 ◼   ► Well, not rumors.

01:17:20 ◼   ► They said, they didn't say we're filing a lawsuit.

01:17:23 ◼   ► They said, we're thinking about maybe filing a lawsuit.

01:17:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:17:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:17:27 ◼   ► They're going to work themselves up into yet another distraction during their year of focus.

01:17:31 ◼   ► Like, every three weeks--

01:17:33 ◼   ► Every three weeks, another OpenAI executive issues a memo about how they have to focus.

01:17:42 ◼   ► It's very good.

01:17:43 ◼   ► Yes.

01:17:44 ◼   ► Like, it's code red again.

01:17:45 ◼   ► My turn.

01:17:46 ◼   ► And then one week later, they'll buy a podcast.

01:17:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:17:50 ◼   ► It's very good.

01:17:51 ◼   ► Whatever's happening there is great.

01:17:52 ◼   ► But, you know, there were all these rumors that Apple would open the system up to other model providers.

01:17:59 ◼   ► I think that's related to the pressure the European Union is placing on Apple to ship something that's more interoperable.

01:18:06 ◼   ► So it's not locked down.

01:18:07 ◼   ► You know, they have gatekeeper status with iOS in particular in Europe.

01:18:10 ◼   ► And the idea that you could just bundle this into the system and preclude a bunch of this competition in sort of this, like, Sherlocking style.

01:18:16 ◼   ► I think that's where some of these affordances remain because they might just have to do it.

01:18:22 ◼   ► They might have to say, look, it's Siri AI, but actually you can set the system AI default to ChatGBT or Claude or whatever it is.

01:18:31 ◼   ► They're obviously in a fight.

01:18:33 ◼   ► It's, like, very clear they want to be in this fight.

01:18:36 ◼   ► I don't know which way it will break, but it doesn't seem as though they can just stay totally closed and say, actually, Siri AI is the only system that works as the system default.

01:18:46 ◼   ► But I don't know what the answer is.

01:18:49 ◼   ► I mean, and that does lead to the question with the, you know, the news with the DM and they announced it in the keynote.

01:18:55 ◼   ► And then they had a newsroom press release on day one addressing the, hey, this isn't coming to none of this new Apple intelligence or Siri AI is coming to the EU anytime in the foreseeable future.

01:19:09 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:19:10 ◼   ► They also, by the way, very quietly in the same breath, like, and it's not coming to China.

01:19:14 ◼   ► But they can't, like, body up against the Chinese government.

01:19:17 ◼   ► Right.

01:19:18 ◼   ► You know, they can't put out a press release being like, we think China sucks.

01:19:21 ◼   ► Like, that's not a choice for them in the way that they can body up against the EU, which they really have.

01:19:26 ◼   ► Like, very aggressive posture against the Digital Markets Act in particular.

01:19:30 ◼   ► The EU had a press conference today.

01:19:32 ◼   ► I don't know what his accent was.

01:19:33 ◼   ► It was very charming and European.

01:19:34 ◼   ► He's like, we think Apple could do whatever they want.

01:19:36 ◼   ► Like, it was very good.

01:19:38 ◼   ► I encourage you to watch it.

01:19:39 ◼   ► They're just, that's just going to keep going.

01:19:42 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, to the EU's credit, vast credit, the whole organization is a series of liberal democracies.

01:19:51 ◼   ► And it's a continent of personal liberty and freedom.

01:19:55 ◼   ► Overall, it is not China.

01:19:57 ◼   ► But I do think Apple deliberately put them together.

01:20:00 ◼   ► Of the two places in the world where we can't launch this are the EU and China.

01:20:05 ◼   ► And it's like, that's not a good look for the EU in terms of the argument that they're over-regulating this.

01:20:12 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:20:13 ◼   ► It's funny because, you know, the EU's position is not like, this is safe.

01:20:17 ◼   ► It's like unsafe and we have to protect the cyber attacks.

01:20:19 ◼   ► It's if we let the big operating systems bundle their AI by default, they will just win again.

01:20:27 ◼   ► And we would like to see more competition on more fair terms.

01:20:30 ◼   ► Now, you can believe that or not, right?

01:20:32 ◼   ► Like, will the Chachutee app still just exist on the iPhone?

01:20:35 ◼   ► And will Google find more places to put their Sparkle?

01:20:38 ◼   ► You know, like, maybe it's all going to be fine.

01:20:41 ◼   ► Did that happen with the models, like, with the existing apps for a model?

01:20:45 ◼   ► Like, does Chrome exist and do millions of people use it on a Mac despite Safari existing?

01:20:49 ◼   ► Like, sure.

01:20:50 ◼   ► But that's the EU's position is you shouldn't be able to bundle this stuff and use your gatekeeper status.

01:20:54 ◼   ► I think Apple's vision is, I think you said it earlier, John, they can't nerd any harder to solve the core problem of we don't want data for messages just leaking into some other system.

01:21:05 ◼   ► And, you know, they laid out some approaches they had presented to the EU and they said they got no engagement.

01:21:10 ◼   ► Again, it's like, maybe there's no technical solution here.

01:21:14 ◼   ► But the position of at least the European government is you've got to propose something more than what you have.

01:21:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:21:20 ◼   ► I do.

01:21:21 ◼   ► I mean, I try to keep it short.

01:21:23 ◼   ► But the position of the Chinese government is we're going to read your data and Apple's like, well, and we'll cave quietly a few months.

01:21:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:21:29 ◼   ► And I guess the difference is with China, it's not surprising, right?

01:21:32 ◼   ► That is the most controlled country in the world.

01:21:35 ◼   ► They control literally as much as much of people's lives as they possibly can.

01:21:40 ◼   ► So the fact that they want to assert complete control over the AI that people use and that they see it as a threat to their dictatorship, of course they do.

01:21:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:21:52 ◼   ► In China, actually, Siri will be able to arrest you directly.

01:21:54 ◼   ► Right.

01:21:55 ◼   ► So like, and again, Apple is, of course, very, very careful about what anybody's, and again, we can talk about this in a way that Jaws or Craig would not be able to, you know, but they're not going to say, yeah, we aren't surprised that we can't launch this in China.

01:22:13 ◼   ► We're not disappointed, you know, like just this.

01:22:15 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:22:16 ◼   ► They cannot put out a press release about that.

01:22:17 ◼   ► Right.

01:22:18 ◼   ► That's not going to be a choice for them.

01:22:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:22:20 ◼   ► They can't say it and it wouldn't be true because I don't think they are disappointed in China.

01:22:24 ◼   ► You know, this is pretty much what you expect.

01:22:26 ◼   ► It would be great if China did liberalize.

01:22:28 ◼   ► I mean, that would be fantastic.

01:22:29 ◼   ► It would be one of the greatest things per person of the planet that could happen.

01:22:34 ◼   ► Right.

01:22:35 ◼   ► Like a more liberalized China would liberate more people than any country in the world because it's the most populous country in the world.

01:22:41 ◼   ► But with the EU, they can say, A, it's true that they are disappointed in their interpretation of the DMA and B, they can say it publicly and they're not going to be put in jail or kicked out of the country.

01:22:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:22:57 ◼   ► I think one of the risks that they run here and, you know, Joanna, I've like interviewed one of the people that like, one of the college students that like booed the professor at the graduation speech.

01:23:04 ◼   ► Right.

01:23:05 ◼   ► I think maybe people in Europe just don't give a shit.

01:23:08 ◼   ► Like if you're, if you're like political cudgel is like, and you don't get AI.

01:23:11 ◼   ► Like, I think a lot of people are like, cool.

01:23:13 ◼   ► We're great.

01:23:16 ◼   ► Does it, does it work?

01:23:17 ◼   ► Like it did it?

01:23:18 ◼   ► Like, well, that's why I think it comes back to like, what would Apple solution be in the EU?

01:23:24 ◼   ► And if it is actually, it comes back to the things we were talking about before that make it the differentiator, which is access to that data.

01:23:32 ◼   ► Right.

01:23:33 ◼   ► Because otherwise it's just the Sherlock chat GPT.

01:23:35 ◼   ► You put a Siri app on that you get from the app store and nobody wants it.

01:23:38 ◼   ► Yep.

01:23:39 ◼   ► Right.

01:23:40 ◼   ► Like we already in just a few hours of using this, I'm seeing this is the big benefit.

01:23:45 ◼   ► Right.

01:23:46 ◼   ► That's the pitch.

01:23:47 ◼   ► Of course, though, Apple's pitch too, is we've got to keep that information private.

01:23:51 ◼   ► If we open this up to others, we can't do that.

01:23:54 ◼   ► Sorry.

01:23:55 ◼   ► I'm just saying for the sake of the argument, again, trucks jumping over stuff.

01:23:58 ◼   ► I'm a proud American.

01:24:01 ◼   ► In Europe, there's universal healthcare.

01:24:03 ◼   ► And when you upgrade to iOS 27, your phone doesn't light itself on fire indexing all your messages.

01:24:09 ◼   ► That might be a superior way of life.

01:24:12 ◼   ► Do you know what I mean?

01:24:13 ◼   ► Yes.

01:24:14 ◼   ► I honestly wonder if we're withholding our AI features is a political winner right now in

01:24:21 ◼   ► 2026.

01:24:22 ◼   ► It's 2026, right?

01:24:23 ◼   ► It's 2027.

01:24:24 ◼   ► It's 2027.

01:24:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:24:26 ◼   ► It's 2027.

01:24:27 ◼   ► I got confused because of the operating system.

01:24:30 ◼   ► That is what happens to my brain.

01:24:31 ◼   ► I'm getting so confused with the operating system.

01:24:33 ◼   ► I've called it 2027 so many times.

01:24:35 ◼   ► But like if you walked around like the middle of the country and you're like, you hate that

01:24:38 ◼   ► data center.

01:24:39 ◼   ► Would you like Apple intelligence?

01:24:40 ◼   ► People are like, no, we'd like to burn it all down.

01:24:42 ◼   ► And that's, I don't know how that will play out.

01:24:44 ◼   ► But I don't, are there Europeans here?

01:24:46 ◼   ► Are you like writing to your, I don't know how it works.

01:24:49 ◼   ► The mail letter to Brussels, like angrily, however that you works, like, is there going

01:24:54 ◼   ► to be some big democratic pushback?

01:24:56 ◼   ► I think like everything, it's a bell curve.

01:24:58 ◼   ► I mean, it's very obvious and I don't, there might be a different distribution of the bell

01:25:02 ◼   ► curve in European culture versus American culture, but I don't think it's that different.

01:25:07 ◼   ► And there's an, and a 20% extreme that is very pro AI to some degree.

01:25:12 ◼   ► And you know, the further you go towards 99%, they're very, very pro.

01:25:16 ◼   ► And then there's a 20% that is very anti AI.

01:25:19 ◼   ► And then there's this big middle.

01:25:21 ◼   ► That's like, eh, I don't know.

01:25:22 ◼   ► I'm a little worried.

01:25:23 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:25:24 ◼   ► My boss is talking like maybe he's going to, you know, really, he seems very happy about

01:25:27 ◼   ► maybe replacing employees with AI.

01:25:30 ◼   ► So I, you know, I don't feel too good about it, but some of these features sound cool.

01:25:34 ◼   ► So, you know, but that's sort of the middle.

01:25:36 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, I'd love Siri not to keep sucking.

01:25:39 ◼   ► Right.

01:25:40 ◼   ► Right.

01:25:41 ◼   ► Like that's the same guy.

01:25:42 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:25:43 ◼   ► I, I, the comparison I'm making, we, we can move on for this is like when Uber was banned

01:25:47 ◼   ► in New York, like Travis Kalanick was like, all right, the message in the Uber app is call

01:25:51 ◼   ► your city councilman and demand Uber.

01:25:53 ◼   ► And like millions of people just did it because the value of Uber at that moment in time was

01:25:56 ◼   ► very high.

01:25:57 ◼   ► There's also a subsidized adventure capital.

01:25:58 ◼   ► It was very cheap living in New York in like the early 2010s.

01:26:01 ◼   ► It was amazing for that reason.

01:26:03 ◼   ► But the value of the app was enough to spur political action.

01:26:07 ◼   ► And I just like, it's open question.

01:26:09 ◼   ► I do not know the answer one way.

01:26:10 ◼   ► No, I, I think that that's unlike, I think you're right.

01:26:12 ◼   ► I mean, I think it's unlikely we're going to see like riots in the street.

01:26:15 ◼   ► Give us Siri.

01:26:16 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:26:17 ◼   ► It's Europe.

01:26:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:26:19 ◼   ► Like at any moment there's a general strike.

01:26:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:26:21 ◼   ► Give us Siri now.

01:26:23 ◼   ► I just, I don't think, I mean.

01:26:25 ◼   ► I'm going to put a Siri flag on the back of my truck.

01:26:26 ◼   ► I would love to cover that.

01:26:27 ◼   ► So if that happens, please invite me to your rally or riot.

01:26:30 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:26:31 ◼   ► That's a great video for you.

01:26:32 ◼   ► I would love it.

01:26:33 ◼   ► I'm on the next plane.

01:26:36 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:26:37 ◼   ► I didn't have riots in the street from a pandemic on my bingo card in 2020 either.

01:26:43 ◼   ► So who knows?

01:26:44 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:26:45 ◼   ► I feel like every, there have been riots in the streets throughout mankind's history.

01:26:50 ◼   ► And I feel like every single one of them was not on people's bingo cards.

01:26:55 ◼   ► Look, it's World Cup season.

01:26:57 ◼   ► Anything can happen.

01:26:58 ◼   ► Right.

01:26:59 ◼   ► I think that to go back to it, I think the nerd harder argument is it goes back to the Arthur

01:27:06 ◼   ► C. Clarke line that had sufficiently advanced technologies indistinguishable from magic.

01:27:11 ◼   ► And our technology on computers is getting way more sophisticated and it is way more pervasive

01:27:17 ◼   ► in everybody's lives.

01:27:19 ◼   ► And what they see is magic.

01:27:21 ◼   ► They were talking about a thing and then they got an Instagram ad for the thing.

01:27:26 ◼   ► And you could tell me the phone's not listening.

01:27:29 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:27:30 ◼   ► But then it's frigging magic because I was just talking about it and now I see an ad.

01:27:33 ◼   ► Right.

01:27:34 ◼   ► And it's all this stuff.

01:27:36 ◼   ► It's all amazing.

01:27:37 ◼   ► I mean, we've got how many thousands of pictures of our children.

01:27:40 ◼   ► It is amazing and you can find them.

01:27:43 ◼   ► You can say, you know, my kid's name on a swing because there was a great picture of him on a swing and it finds the picture.

01:27:50 ◼   ► And it's like, that's amazing.

01:27:52 ◼   ► But then it gets to the laws aren't written by people who understand the technology.

01:28:00 ◼   ► And the easier way to understand it is the arguments over encryption where the law makers around the world and it just keeps percolating up over and over again everywhere.

01:28:10 ◼   ► It's whack-a-mole where they're like, we're on board and end to end encryption.

01:28:14 ◼   ► It's great.

01:28:15 ◼   ► We want it.

01:28:16 ◼   ► It's great.

01:28:17 ◼   ► But you've got to let the good guys in to look for child pornography.

01:28:21 ◼   ► And it's like, no, but that technically that's that's impossible with end to end encryption.

01:28:27 ◼   ► That's the trade off.

01:28:28 ◼   ► And they're like, yeah, you'll figure it out.

01:28:31 ◼   ► Right.

01:28:32 ◼   ► Nerd harder.

01:28:33 ◼   ► Right.

01:28:34 ◼   ► You'll figure it out.

01:28:35 ◼   ► You say it.

01:28:36 ◼   ► You don't want to do this work.

01:28:37 ◼   ► It's probably is hard work and it's not going to make you money, but you're smart.

01:28:41 ◼   ► You'll figure out a way to let the good guys in in a secure way.

01:28:45 ◼   ► And I think that's the EU's argument with the Apple intelligence.

01:28:50 ◼   ► And I saw that press conference that the guy had.

01:28:52 ◼   ► And I think that's basically it where they want Apple to trust third party AIs to have the access to your personal data on your device as much as Apple trusts themselves with the code that they've written.

01:29:10 ◼   ► But Apple knows that Siri and Apple intelligence doesn't upload your personal stuff to a cloud.

01:29:17 ◼   ► If they granted any third party, even a company like Google, who they're back sort of in partnership with more than competition with in a lot of ways.

01:29:27 ◼   ► If Google's software has access to the same stuff, it's all bets are off what Google's doing because it's Google software.

01:29:34 ◼   ► Apple doesn't know what it's doing.

01:29:36 ◼   ► So Apple is not going to trust anybody else's software the way they trust their own.

01:29:41 ◼   ► And so if the rule is you can only ship what you trust the same level in the EU, what Apple's doing is, well, then we're only going to ship the stuff that we would trust third parties with.

01:29:55 ◼   ► But the EU's perspective, I think, boils down to just nerd harder and figure it out.

01:30:00 ◼   ► Like they don't nobody in EU that very sweet talking politician, he doesn't endorse the idea that rock should have access to all of your Apple notes and do whatever it wants with it.

01:30:12 ◼   ► And, you know, post memes to Twitter with your personal pictures.

01:30:18 ◼   ► He thinks Apple can figure out a way to make the third parties treat it with the same level of respect and privacy that Apple does with their own.

01:30:27 ◼   ► And they can't.

01:30:28 ◼   ► It's impossible.

01:30:29 ◼   ► Magic.

01:30:30 ◼   ► Magic.

01:30:31 ◼   ► Maybe the whole error here on everyone's part is assuming that the operating system is the gatekeeper is the thing you have to disrupt.

01:30:40 ◼   ► Right.

01:30:41 ◼   ► Because the other model for all of these other companies is, well, what if you don't have a phone?

01:30:46 ◼   ► What if you just have a ring?

01:30:47 ◼   ► What if you just have a pendant?

01:30:49 ◼   ► You guys see Microsoft as very funny.

01:30:51 ◼   ► Like the future of computing is smart lanyards.

01:30:53 ◼   ► And, you know, like you're just the single most corporate company in the history of the world.

01:30:59 ◼   ► You can't stop yourselves from being like badge access is the computing paradigm of the future.

01:31:05 ◼   ► It's just like, please stop.

01:31:09 ◼   ► But like that's the idea, right?

01:31:11 ◼   ► That actually all the logic will live in the cloud.

01:31:13 ◼   ► All the databases already live in the cloud.

01:31:15 ◼   ► And the idea that most of our apps are just front ends to cloud databases.

01:31:19 ◼   ► Well, you could disrupt that entirely.

01:31:21 ◼   ► And so saying, well, the operating system assistant will naturally win because it is the default.

01:31:27 ◼   ► That could be the wrong paradigm across the board.

01:31:29 ◼   ► It could be Apple's wrong paradigm.

01:31:30 ◼   ► It could be Europe's wrong paradigm.

01:31:32 ◼   ► Like honestly, this is the fight of the next 10 years.

01:31:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:31:36 ◼   ► Not next year.

01:31:37 ◼   ► Like next year, we're all just going to buy the next iPhone.

01:31:39 ◼   ► 10 years from now, I think it's actually an open question.

01:31:41 ◼   ► And, you know, in the world, there is a bit of an if, but it seems, you know, from what

01:31:45 ◼   ► they've shown from your personal experience today, Joanna, it seems like they've got the real deal here.

01:31:51 ◼   ► And this is something that people will actually use.

01:31:53 ◼   ► You spent a year living the AI life and you seem impressed after a day.

01:32:00 ◼   ► I guess a couple hours, but there were many points in the day where I was like, wow.

01:32:05 ◼   ► There were also many points in the day where it was Siri wanted to search the web and it was failing.

01:32:09 ◼   ► And so clearly a beta, obviously we all know this is a beta.

01:32:14 ◼   ► By the way, definitely the most stable developer beta I've used in years.

01:32:18 ◼   ► Oh, I think so too.

01:32:19 ◼   ► I mean, like I, you asked like, did you, did you put on your personal device?

01:32:24 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:32:25 ◼   ► No, not yet.

01:32:26 ◼   ► I did.

01:32:27 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:32:28 ◼   ► I mean, I was just like YOLO.

01:32:29 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:32:30 ◼   ► Just like, you know, because it needs all this.

01:32:32 ◼   ► My other backups don't have all this other data in it.

01:32:35 ◼   ► So look, it might be coming for me and I'm probably in a week regret saying any of this publicly,

01:32:40 ◼   ► but definitely feels the most stable.

01:32:42 ◼   ► Obviously still a beta, but so many things that I was like, wow, that worked.

01:32:47 ◼   ► I was talking with the developer last night and it is a very long time WWDC veteran developers comment.

01:32:55 ◼   ► He, he had put it on his personal iPhone and I was like, oh man, that's pretty bold on day one.

01:33:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:33:01 ◼   ► And he goes, no, but it's lucky.

01:33:02 ◼   ► He goes, this one feels like a, it feels like a beta three.

01:33:05 ◼   ► Oh, that's good.

01:33:06 ◼   ► And I was like, oh, I understand that.

01:33:09 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:33:10 ◼   ► Totally.

01:33:11 ◼   ► That's how, I mean, battery is okay.

01:33:12 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:33:13 ◼   ► I haven't, I've seen a few little things.

01:33:14 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:33:15 ◼   ► That's like beta three is usually like July, like early July.

01:33:17 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:33:18 ◼   ► That's usually when I do it.

01:33:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:33:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:33:21 ◼   ► That's exactly when I usually do it.

01:33:22 ◼   ► It works like immediately faster.

01:33:23 ◼   ► Like it is performant on, on new max in a way that's great.

01:33:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:33:27 ◼   ► I'll just say this before we move on from the Siri thing in the EU is that I think if it's

01:33:31 ◼   ► good, if it really is as promised.

01:33:33 ◼   ► And I think it really might be, I think this is really going to create a very interesting experiment

01:33:39 ◼   ► in the world where if he, the EU and iPhone users there don't get these features.

01:33:45 ◼   ► Like it is true.

01:33:47 ◼   ► I write about this a lot.

01:33:48 ◼   ► There's a lot of people who read during fireball or listen to the show from the EU who don't

01:33:54 ◼   ► agree with my takes on the EU and the DMA.

01:33:56 ◼   ► And a lot of them, you know, got to laugh two years ago cause they're like, oh, we don't

01:34:01 ◼   ► get Apple intelligence.

01:34:02 ◼   ► Oh, horrible.

01:34:04 ◼   ► Oh my gosh.

01:34:06 ◼   ► Well, now it may not be so funny to them.

01:34:09 ◼   ► Right?

01:34:10 ◼   ► I really think now they might be missing out.

01:34:12 ◼   ► And I think the message from Apple that the press release, they put out the background and

01:34:18 ◼   ► on record with jaws today, public press briefing they had about it.

01:34:23 ◼   ► The gist of it is basically, unless the EU changes their mind on the internet, they don't

01:34:28 ◼   ► think the DMA needs to be rewritten, certainly not going to be revoked, but reinterpreted how

01:34:33 ◼   ► it applies in this case.

01:34:35 ◼   ► These features are never coming to the EU ever.

01:34:38 ◼   ► Like something's got to, got to give in terms of what they've told Apple or it's never going

01:34:44 ◼   ► to happen.

01:34:45 ◼   ► And I think that really makes for an interesting experiment two years from now where everywhere

01:34:51 ◼   ► else in the Western world, everybody on the Apple platforms has this, it's like, oh,

01:34:56 ◼   ► I can't imagine living without.

01:34:57 ◼   ► I think that timeline is a little more stretched.

01:35:00 ◼   ► Right.

01:35:01 ◼   ► I mean, these features are only in English right now.

01:35:02 ◼   ► They have a lot of localization work to do.

01:35:04 ◼   ► They've got a lot of more countries to get to.

01:35:07 ◼   ► You know, I think these are opening salvos from, I mean, Apple was like itself the size

01:35:12 ◼   ► of a world government.

01:35:13 ◼   ► Right.

01:35:14 ◼   ► You know, it's like, well, what if we dissolve NATO?

01:35:16 ◼   ► Like that's just like a thing.

01:35:17 ◼   ► Yes.

01:35:18 ◼   ► Again.

01:35:19 ◼   ► Like Apple legitimately is like our product line protects the sovereignty of Taiwan.

01:35:24 ◼   ► Like that's just a real thing that Apple can lay claim to.

01:35:27 ◼   ► So like body up against the EU and everyone doing press conferences.

01:35:30 ◼   ► That's today.

01:35:31 ◼   ► Eventually they're going to have to ship this thing in more languages and more countries

01:35:35 ◼   ► around the world.

01:35:36 ◼   ► And they're not, I don't think they're just going to be like, well, F it.

01:35:39 ◼   ► Like I think there will be more engagement now that these initial positions have been taken.

01:35:43 ◼   ► I really don't think their statement, like this is why I could never have worked at Apple.

01:35:47 ◼   ► Cause my statement would have been F you, you know, I'm not, we're not doing this.

01:35:51 ◼   ► This is why like, you're like more of a turnist.

01:35:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:35:55 ◼   ► They went, this is why cook is still around.

01:35:57 ◼   ► Do you know what I mean?

01:35:58 ◼   ► They went to the EU and what did they call it?

01:36:00 ◼   ► They called it the, it's the proposal.

01:36:02 ◼   ► Oh, trusted system agent.

01:36:06 ◼   ► And they proposed this really, and they estimated it would be an 18 month engineering project to

01:36:12 ◼   ► build, but it would be some kind of intermediate idiot layer that would give the user the ability

01:36:19 ◼   ► to authorize the third party chat before it gets to the private data.

01:36:23 ◼   ► Like chat GBT wants to access your Apple notes is yes or no.

01:36:28 ◼   ► Um, and it's very complicated.

01:36:30 ◼   ► It would take 18 months and they didn't want to spend 18 months building it.

01:36:34 ◼   ► And they said all the things that they've done to comply with the DMA, the way that

01:36:38 ◼   ► they've now support, uh, third party web at rendering engines that nobody uses the way

01:36:44 ◼   ► that they support, uh, third party app stores, which some people use.

01:36:48 ◼   ► Um, but they've done all these things.

01:36:50 ◼   ► This they said would be by far and away the biggest engineering project.

01:36:53 ◼   ► They would have to undertake more than all the other ones combined and that they didn't

01:36:58 ◼   ► want to do it without knowing in advance, whether it would comply.

01:37:01 ◼   ► And the gist of they, they explained it and they said, this is how much we bend over backwards,

01:37:07 ◼   ► trying not to say F you.

01:37:08 ◼   ► They didn't say that, but that they went to the EU six months ago and explained their plans.

01:37:14 ◼   ► And, and jaws said in the briefing, like you guys know, we don't tell other people our plans,

01:37:19 ◼   ► but that's how important we felt this is.

01:37:21 ◼   ► We went there, we explained it.

01:37:23 ◼   ► We proposed this trusted system agent and we said, would this be okay?

01:37:29 ◼   ► And they were like, eh, build it.

01:37:31 ◼   ► And then we will tell you.

01:37:32 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:37:33 ◼   ► And Apple is like, we're not going to, at least right now they are thinking we're not going

01:37:37 ◼   ► to spend those resources to build it only to be told, no, it still doesn't comply.

01:37:41 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:37:42 ◼   ► So I think it's very interesting to see how this plays out.

01:37:46 ◼   ► It is, they are very far apart.

01:37:48 ◼   ► And I think the experience of the users is going to significantly diverge and it'll be interesting.

01:37:55 ◼   ► Who's happier?

01:37:56 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:37:57 ◼   ► It could be that the people without AI on their devices are happier, you know, or they're just

01:38:01 ◼   ► going to open clot.