The Accidental Tech Podcast

34: Made The Dot Smaller

 

  I took the bold step the very first time ever done it and marked that review is [TS]

  not helpful I totally mark them as not helpful to have better not helpful I [TS]

  wanna talk about TV from a nap Breaking Bad and this is going to have a point I [TS]

  was watching agents of shield earlier tonight with Aaron sorry well it's ok [TS]

  it's it's got promise but it's not very good at the moment well the reason I [TS]

  bring this up is because there was a portion of the episode and this is not [TS]

  particularly important if you haven't seen it yet but somebody was going [TS]

  behind enemy lines if you will and they had like you know an invisible world [TS]

  almost invisible secret agent earpiece thing and this person was trying to [TS]

  schmooze people they didn't know at a party and so what they did was they had [TS]

  the other agents like up in the magical plane thing telling the person on the [TS]

  field in the field [TS]

  oh well this is someone so he has twin kids and ask him about this now the [TS]

  other thing so this person can schmooze not look like an outsider well they [TS]

  walked away from one of the from this conversation where they had to schmooze [TS]

  and with people that know me and they said something to the effect oh wow it's [TS]

  really awesome having you guys here and really get used to this and then they [TS]

  said and i'm quoting its like Siri if it works and so this is a national TV show [TS]

  and granted america's not the be all end all but I mean this is Apple taking [TS]

  potshots on national television which I thought was a little bit surprising well [TS]

  to be fair Syria has never been that reliable no I mean it's it's not [TS]

  unreasonable I just thought it was surprising that it would that it's [TS]

  become part of the killers right word but it's become something that everyone [TS]

  recognizes as an issue that's the anti trap anything you do that to a lay [TS]

  person seems like it should be like another person talking to you until we [TS]

  get actual real you know whatever the term is strong AI is not going to be [TS]

  like that and [TS]

  and there's gonna be an expectation gap I talked to a thing I want to respond to [TS]

  me like a person it's not going to we all know it's not going to but doesn't [TS]

  matter because once I start talking to like a person to dam up their work like [TS]

  a person and that combined with its reliability of like sometimes it just [TS]

  says sorry I couldn't do it could reach servers not available in order but even [TS]

  a response to you you know it's fun to play with and then you quickly realize [TS]

  it's not like talking to a person and you disappointed and that's never going [TS]

  to go away like Google now series things are getting better and better and you [TS]

  know just be leaps and bounds over where they are today and people will still be [TS]

  like it'll still be jokes about them on late night TV because there are they so [TS]

  stupid you know my dog smarter than syria like it doesn't understand he [TS]

  doesn't understand and it wont doesn't understand it won't understand for you [TS]

  know years decades our lifetime who knows how long it will take to get [TS]

  actual intelligence on the level of human being and the other end of a [TS]

  computer thing and up until that point it's going to be the butt of jokes it's [TS]

  hard to tell it on the agent of shield episode they were making fun of the [TS]

  reliability or the intelligence or bowl right right [TS]

  figures like the reliability that you know that Apple graceland I now we can [TS]

  make this stupid thing reliable the very least and then you're just complaining [TS]

  about all the responses aren't very smart but when it says sorry it's not [TS]

  available right now series now read that it says when when you know the service [TS]

  center response that is something that Apple should be ashamed I now but [TS]

  everything else if you're doing anything that you talk to the talks back you just [TS]

  gonna have to take your lumps but you know as far as as far as popular culture [TS]

  is concerned as far as regular people are concerned he'll even as far as [TS]

  you're concerned it doesn't really matter whether the server failure [TS]

  happens or whether it does the wrong thing or or thinks the wrong thing about [TS]

  what you said either way it's a failure and and all it takes is a few failures [TS]

  where you know after that you just forget about using you stop using it [TS]

  right in so it seems weird to me [TS]

  words are weird is the right word but I can't help but wonder this got me [TS]

  thinking that I can't help but wonder at what point is Apple gonna say enough is [TS]

  enough and not properly fix this and I know that that [TS]

  we've talked about this a lot with light cloud and core data for example and [TS]

  we've talked a lot a lot about this with series as well but at some point you [TS]

  have to think that they're gonna get together and say got guys and girls we [TS]

  really really really have to fix this like it's that time ever coming is Mr [TS]

  waiting for train that's just not going to show up it was kind of a victory for [TS]

  Apple to be mentioned because the worst thing for Apple would be for them to [TS]

  make that same joke about Google now so like syria has the mindshare as that [TS]

  thing on your phone that you talk to and there is value in having that mindshare [TS]

  even if it comes along with you know all that other baggage and everything just [TS]

  because like you know you gonna become the kleenex or whatever of the thing [TS]

  whatever is generous sized random but you know that's that's what they went 2 [TS]

  for the joke because they figure most people know that they'll know what we're [TS]

  talking about they'll get the joke whereas you know Google now or any of [TS]

  the other things that you talked to are more reliable yes but again I'm not I [TS]

  don't think the joke was about reliability I think it's like if it [TS]

  worked as in if you could actually a serious things and she would give you [TS]

  answers [TS]

  versus just saying I'm sorry I don't know what that is doing a google search [TS]

  warrant which is what syria does when you try to talk to me like a person I [TS]

  don't know but like I think it's good that the word is in the public [TS]

  consciousness and I think Apple continues to work on the reliability and [TS]

  you know fail for the same reason they fail to make all their online service [TS]

  reliable but is also working on the intelligence part of it is just at this [TS]

  point I think it's the cost of doing business you want to be on the phone [TS]

  market you get out some sort of thing that you talked to does real-time [TS]

  intelligence searches from multiple sources and so it's never going to go [TS]

  away they're going to keep trying to make it better and you know about online [TS]

  services like I wanted to get a fix on line thing like you know that Mak [TS]

  goodnight tools and MobileMe with iCloud the one where they fixed everything [TS]

  I really they just keep trying I guess when I mean and it's it's how you have [TS]

  to start wondering what is it about Apple that makes them quote not good at [TS]

  Webster's like we all say that we all right that we all think that Apple is [TS]

  not good but what's different like what's going to be different [TS]

  a year from now compared to now in that area like what steps are they taking or [TS]

  what steps could they even take to meaningfully change that like what is it [TS]

  about the company that makes them not good at web services and I don't really [TS]

  see from the outside any evidence that meaningful changes happening there it [TS]

  seems like you know as we've discussed before it's it's probably a problem of [TS]

  engineering resources and priorities and up until this time Apple has clearly put [TS]

  some priority on web services but they are still a very small company with [TS]

  their engineering resources and it doesn't really ever seem like that's [TS]

  gonna take a massive turn for the better we're suddenly their web services are [TS]

  going to have tons more staff on them tones more resources and be at a much [TS]

  higher priority the company I don't I don't see that happened [TS]

  yeah I don't know either and and it seems we like most not everything is web [TS]

  objects right I mean I know the iTunes stories but but we have no reason to [TS]

  believe everything else as well I'll text you right and and that I really [TS]

  don't think web objects the technology has anything substantial to do with why [TS]

  Apple is not quote good at web services and then you can pick on any language or [TS]

  platform and say oh well that doesn't scale or that's old or whatever the fact [TS]

  is that's not the problem [TS]

  you know you could with with proper administration of proper coding you can [TS]

  make anything scale you can make anything work the platform is really the [TS]

  problem you know the platform is an end by the way there's nothing saying Apple [TS]

  has to be using with objects maybe they're not using it for part of the [TS]

  stuff using it for just a front end somewhere and using Oracle stuff behind [TS]

  who knows but I I would not I would not put blame on [TS]

  the fact that they occasionally have web object URLs that we're looking at it [TS]

  from the front I don't have a lot to do with it well but the hard thing about [TS]

  web job a web objects is that how do you hire for someone that can do web objects [TS]

  obviously you can teach any competent programmer just about anything but if [TS]

  you want a web objects guru they're like what four of them in the world in there [TS]

  are probably on Apple's payroll ready so to get in and of itself web objects may [TS]

  not be the problem in the sense of it functions in with like he said good [TS]

  coding it'll continue to function but it's hard to hire into that role if you [TS]

  wanted to throw people at the problem which may or may not even be the [TS]

  solution [TS]

  well but really like looking at looking at a major code base for a major web [TS]

  service under heavy traffic that's very high profile I mean really doesn't [TS]

  matter what language is written in like any new hires gonna have to go through a [TS]

  lot of training and a lot of time just becoming familiar with this code base [TS]

  and becoming useful in working with it i mean i i dont think even if it was [TS]

  written in Java which everyone can either knows or can be taught very [TS]

  quickly I don't think that would really make a difference I mean really I think [TS]

  if I'm directs really was the big problems they're having either that's a [TS]

  giant failure of leadership or that's it it's a giant failure of leadership [TS]

  that's it that's like that's the reason if if they're being held back because [TS]

  they're using web objects that's a really stupid reason to be held back and [TS]

  there is no reason to continue it [TS]

  these services are all pretty nu they could if that was really the problem [TS]

  they could rewrite them it wouldn't it would be a big undertaking but it [TS]

  wouldn't be an insurmountable the fact is I don't think that's really the [TS]

  problem and if it is really the problem then I'm still correct it's a problem [TS]

  with something about high-level leadership of priorities rather than [TS]

  this technology can do this [TS]

  objects is actually not now but back in the day was actually a tiny example of [TS]

  couples sort of doing the right thing and I've done this rant several times as [TS]

  many other shows you two should be able to recite it by now [TS]

  like if you're gonna do web services or anything anything online at the scale [TS]

  Apple does it you go into a different realm and what market said about you [TS]

  know you can make any web service killing pop forum is true but once you [TS]

  start getting into Apple scalar Google scale things like that do matter a [TS]

  little bit more than they do you like there's a threshold to reach capacity [TS]

  like okay now a neoplasm won't do and really the platform actually does matter [TS]

  because any tiny inefficiency is multiplied by the millions of service [TS]

  that we have or maybe a particular architecture dictated by a particular [TS]

  platform doesn't allow us to be in a million different data centers around [TS]

  the world in a synchronized manner and all these other things that come into [TS]

  play for like seven people in the world for like maybe [TS]

  Amazon Microsoft Google anybody who's got a worldwide online presence [TS]

  huge service which millions and millions of customers and where the good thing [TS]

  that web objects had going for it is that they didn't make themselves but it [TS]

  was in the house came with us feel like like technology using now ok from nexrad [TS]

  and that's what you have to do it this scale you have to take ownership of your [TS]

  online platform you can't just use sort of off the shelf stuff and by experts [TS]

  and have them put them up to each other once you pass a certain threshold of [TS]

  scale you got to stop yourself and the Sun does microsoft does Google does [TS]

  practically everything themselves right down to their own hardware and [TS]

  everything and Apple seems to do so so much less of it and Apple is it that [TS]

  scale now hundreds of millions of people using iOS devices connecting to a club [TS]

  like there there there there at that scale they can't be the only person [TS]

  doing stuff off the shelf they need to take ownership of their online platform [TS]

  technology and I don't understand the leadership get here too because it's [TS]

  clear that leadership gap doesn't exist for the client side stuff because they [TS]

  the organization that does all this other stuff so clearly when it comes to [TS]

  a top or not but so clearly understand that it needs to take complete ownership [TS]

  of its platform we have to be responsible and making sure we have [TS]

  good tools good compiler good language and we're going to not just do them once [TS]

  and just ok we're done koko's awesome you know project build their we're all [TS]

  set we've got our own tools for great they're gonna be no that's not satisfied [TS]

  with that we need a better compiler we need to ditch project will you make a [TS]

  New Mexico keep making this code better and better we need to switch out our [TS]

  debugger friend we need to have the Objective C runtime you know they just [TS]

  take such incredible ownership of their platform they know they can't just let [TS]

  it sit there and then not relying unlike some other vendor or some other [TS]

  platforms solve their problems and just throw it a bunch of people are here you [TS]

  go here some pieces you know they totally take control of their clients [TS]

  and they need to service that is just as important thing to be doing all those [TS]

  same things whereas the team that has been working on this is the technology [TS]

  that that we're going to use inside Apple to deploy online services you know [TS]

  starting 10 years ago and continually revising it ten years ago the head web [TS]

  objects which even then was kind of weird and aidid and they just didn't [TS]

  like keep it up today to modernize it and like it like it's free pass that by [TS]

  they didn't let that happen on the client side did you know racing ahead [TS]

  especially with exceptions a file system but most other aspects [TS]

  taking ownership of their of their platform there on the server side [TS]

  they're not they're going to third-party vendors and that's an untenable strategy [TS]

  they need to be more like Google and Microsoft and Amazon and have their own [TS]

  platforms with their own in-house technology dedicate those kind of [TS]

  resources to it and I don't understand why one half of the company can do that [TS]

  and the other half can't because it seems like the same leadership well yeah [TS]

  but what do you say that objects is getting better I mean from the outside [TS]

  there's no indication it's getting better but who's to say from that it [TS]

  isn't getting better on the inside and they're just not letting anyone see it [TS]

  the model of the way it works in the model the web of course the whole idea [TS]

  of having you know object transparency just kind of like working like cocoa on [TS]

  the web and all these conveniences like that's not what massive online services [TS]

  about these days anymore they're about infrastructure pieces to manage storage [TS]

  and data in ways that are totally unlike the web objects that in terms of where [TS]

  the state is and [TS]

  you know how it all fits together just look at how like let's look at Google's [TS]

  span are things that they use for the database stuff in there and then all of [TS]

  its predecessors like GFS and what was that some of the ceremony was the thing [TS]

  that the predicted a big table and like all these infrastructure projects that [TS]

  have come and gone and MapReduce and all those things like that Google is [TS]

  constantly revising Apple hasn't gone through that the revolution Google [TS]

  started out its first things and just GFS and MapReduce were already ahead of [TS]

  where Apple as the web objects in terms of doing things that scale and ghouls [TS]

  constantly throwing away it's all 10 replacing with doing it over and over [TS]

  and over again for its service and same thing with Amazon and all the stuff that [TS]

  is using to run its services [TS]

  Apple started with one dot dress which was already like sort of the old model [TS]

  and look at much working for developers to do you know like google has proven [TS]

  that you can make things annoying for developers is certainly using big table [TS]

  is super annoying which is one of the reasons spanner exist for developers but [TS]

  it was like you know scaling is king and even though it's going to be annoying to [TS]

  do the stuff of the application level we scaling is more important and will work [TS]

  at the other things later as Apple was like oh we want this to be all nice and [TS]

  kind of like working with objects or convenient and everything is magically [TS]

  objects and persistent sounds like our data I guess my mind and in that nice [TS]

  and that is nice and everything but that you know you're you aren't your hands [TS]

  tied behind your back in terms of how do you scales 217 data centers with [TS]

  redundant hardware and all these other you know things like will know the day [TS]

  has come when Apple has finally started to join the modern age when they don't [TS]

  have to bring a story down before they introduce new products like there's [TS]

  there's a way to do it like the reason they do that is not so much like a we [TS]

  have to take the store downtown new products they don't have to take the [TS]

  tour ended in parks they have to take the dart story on this my theory they [TS]

  have to take the story down to add new products that appear to customers in [TS]

  deterministic Manor right because they can add new products take mister down [TS]

  but they have no idea when or where they'll appear for people because of [TS]

  their their architecture doesn't allow them to sort of you know have a way to [TS]

  say ok now this is available for the entire world is just like an added and [TS]

  then it sort of trickles out through [TS]

  there whatever system they have going with combined their CD and stuff and [TS]

  they don't want to spoil the surprise so instead of bringing the whole thing down [TS]

  read the whole thing put put all the new stuff in the news wait for the moment my [TS]

  cell K and go bring it back up and then you're sure that nobody sees at halftime [TS]

  accidentally right and you're sure that when you turn on everybody sees the new [TS]

  thing because you had time for to propagate during the you know that's my [TS]

  theory of why is it the store down but that's not how it works you can take to [TS]

  start down when you when you don't want to spoil the surprise do you really [TS]

  think taking the store down is still necessary or do you think they're doing [TS]

  it only for the theatrical element but it's it's because if they didn't they [TS]

  wouldn't have control over when people saw things like they want ever wanted to [TS]

  be visible to it [TS]

  everybody wants as much as possible but only starting in the given point I feel [TS]

  like this against the speculation if they just put up the store now it would [TS]

  either slowly trickle out to people which would be kind of annoying that you [TS]

  want everybody to see when you announce or if you started early [TS]

  some people might see it early you know so I think it's it's about making it so [TS]

  that everyone sees things simultaneously it could be purely for theatrics and [TS]

  then they do not do it all but that I think they would have stopped that by [TS]

  now like this so many things they've done for theatrics that sort of coming [TS]

  on but my guess is that has to do with content propagation and being control [TS]

  when it appears that the first person and getting it to appear to the most [TS]

  people as soon as possible but there's no I mean there's no technical no reason [TS]

  why it has to take that one hot like they don't have to take the store down [TS]

  for an hour and a half to two to update something how long does it take for the [TS]

  new content to propagate through their worldwide network of CDN it depends it [TS]

  depends how they do it I know what I'm saying maybe it maybe actually takes [TS]

  them like two hours to be sure that all the new content is propagated audience [TS]

  but but that's a choice they make an implementation I mean they can they can [TS]

  do it within a few seconds of the 18 2010 and this is just my guess of what [TS]

  they were doing like and you're right it is found for a long time so I can sit [TS]

  down for five seconds then comes back up and down for like an hour during during [TS]

  the keynote practically [TS]

  usually goes down before the keynote and so it's down for like three how are they [TS]

  trying to prevent people [TS]

  only buying the old products while they're announcing the new ones but you [TS]

  can still go into an Apple store and buy you can still buy them like that morning [TS]

  you could say that that can't be the reason I wonder what about the store [TS]

  employees wave you are like if you go in like the keynote is going on Trulia [TS]

  everyone out there knows the keynote is going out you go in like on the October [TS]

  22nd iPad event and you call in a while someone is on stage introducing new iPad [TS]

  you try to buy an old one would think the Apple Store guys gonna go you know [TS]

  they're announcing new ones now I can stop by this here you go you can have it [TS]

  now but just in case like you might want to know maybe you don't know they're [TS]

  announcing new ones right now I wonder if they tell you that I i think you [TS]

  might be overestimating the geekiness and attentiveness of both the staff and [TS]

  the customers in Apple Store [TS]

  be depressed if they don't if they don't even know that it's going on so do you [TS]

  think you know [TS]

  thinking about some more of the sample service before we go up to two different [TS]

  topic do you think Apple's really feeling pain from this from from their [TS]

  stuff being the status quo of working most of the time but not being up to the [TS]

  standards service wise quality wise up time was liability was of Google [TS]

  services Amazon Services Facebook services you know that the other big [TS]

  giant do you think Apple really feeling the pain from that lady you think this [TS]

  is really hurting them because with Google they had to still ridiculously [TS]

  well because a not a lot of other people in their business for doing that [TS]

  be there were scaling way past but everyone was doing and see that's their [TS]

  entire business that's where everything comes from if Google doesn't serve an ad [TS]

  they lose money whereas Apple is selling all this hardware regardless of how of [TS]

  whether I must extend this morning you know it doesn't really hurt them [TS]

  directly and severely where there's one to two inches of downtown here in there [TS]

  like how much do you think how much pain you think there's a feeling it's kinda [TS]

  seems like they're not filling enough to do anything drastic well maybe but let [TS]

  me answer your question by asking you a question do you think Apple is proud [TS]

  did and I think it's pretty clear to me that they're very proud company and i [TS]

  dont I can't imagine to come full circle I can imagine that they liked hearing [TS]

  these potshots taken at them during agents of shield doesn't make sense you [TS]

  know that's the question of the question is it seems like a bomber type question [TS]

  are they in denial [TS]

  if you were to ask them like you know off the record I can report this story [TS]

  evidence that you bump into Tim Cook in an elevator whatever it's like do you [TS]

  think Apple does online stuff as well as you know Google Amazon and Microsoft and [TS]

  that this could explain the leadership gap where they like maybe they have you [TS]

  know they're in denial they think everyone has troubles every once in a [TS]

  while we were kind of you know in the mix were kind of pretty much almost as [TS]

  good as Google and Amazon you know maybe some days where Sunday's better as their [TS]

  ups and downs like or do they really realized that just happened what the gap [TS]

  is you know and the Kappas not if you were to put on a little graph or [TS]

  something like that only a couple of percentage but it's like that last [TS]

  couple of percentage of its like uptime going from like you know three nines 279 [TS]

  just astronomically hard so much harder than going from ninety percent of time [TS]

  to 99 you know me in like the last little bits of the part the modern I [TS]

  wonder like that could explain why they haven't sort of gotten religion on this [TS]

  and dedicated themselves to doing the server side taking ownership of the [TS]

  service i'd text during the client side is that they think they think they're [TS]

  they're not that bad like maybe they really actually think we have room for [TS]

  improvement [TS]

  we're not satisfied with where we are but it's not that were closed right and [TS]

  I would say no you're not like it seems like you're close but really those last [TS]

  few inches on the graph make all the difference you're not close there is [TS]

  nobody there is not a single person who has any technical clue who would say do [TS]

  you think a ten-day of any month of any year that Apple does on stuff better [TS]

  than Google like it never it's never happened [TS]

  no one has ever had that opinion as a hundred percent ok Go's better how much [TS]

  better their little better but nobody believes that will better nobody liked [TS]

  and I have a feeling that you have someone on the iTunes Music Store think [TS]

  of course we're better look how many billions of songs we saw look how many [TS]

  apps we give people Google doesn't do stuff like that they're so their store [TS]

  sucks we do so much better you know like because they excel in a few areas like [TS]

  read mostly distribution [TS]

  of static data to people they think we're an online services company and [TS]

  we're awesome and it's just it's just not the same as an attractive thing do [TS]

  you think anyone's ever returned an iPhone because I message was down for 20 [TS]

  minutes a month now you read about them not feeling like it would be better if [TS]

  they felt they have more questions than Google they just do because you know [TS]

  there are so many other interesting things you can do with the device that [TS]

  don't matter and you you know you can use Google services for example you can [TS]

  use Google Maps another area where they have little trouble you can use Google [TS]

  now like it's not the whole business is just part of their business and so no [TS]

  one's going to return that thing because series waukee every once in awhile like [TS]

  it doesn't hurt them as much as almost kind of a shame because it hurt them or [TS]

  maybe you know like dropped jobs I think knew they weren't in the Google the [TS]

  stuff better like the MobileMe team and having meetings and trying to do a club [TS]

  like at least he i think he understood we're not good at this we should get [TS]

  better he didn't know how to make that happen apparently but a few short ride [TS]

  so we'll see if there ever comes a time where like I mean I guess Tim Cook maybe [TS]

  did that about maps like apologizing for map so we need to do better and some [TS]

  understanding the master may be just as bad as a data problem and not a server [TS]

  problem I don't know like that the thing about maps of I was like ok well now we [TS]

  just need a better map it's like ok so you have forgotten about the fleet of [TS]

  cars are going to drive over every single road in the entire world take [TS]

  pictures did you forget about that part because you don't get that for free if [TS]

  you just get better map data right [TS]

  Google did that that's a crazy project it's huge and its ongoing right and they [TS]

  don't stop doing it and if you don't have an answer for that you're not gonna [TS]

  have Street View you not gonna have like let me fly 3d through the middle of [TS]

  creeks offices like you're so far from that so how are you ever going to [TS]

  compete it could be that is like walking over never gonna do that we just need [TS]

  maps to say we have maps and they can just continue to use Google Maps are [TS]

  things in Google Maps always gonna be better but that's not an applicant about [TS]

  you know a man and it's not like when I say this is like a ass is a substantial [TS]

  problem the company that probably never change I can imagine to take another [TS]

  example the industry imagine if you know some some Microsoft CEO comes in [TS]

  I guess it's possible some new Microsoft CEO comes in and they say you know what [TS]

  our devices aren't cool everything we make our our our hardware is not cool [TS]

  our software is not cool nobody thinks our stuff for school let's hire somebody [TS]

  in charge of keeping things cool or let's let's just let's increase the [TS]

  funding to our cool department by 50 percent this year like do you think [TS]

  that's really going to change it like it it's not that easy and so I feel like [TS]

  looking at Apple and saying how can they address the server or the Services issue [TS]

  that they their services aren't that good traditionally and continue to be [TS]

  that way I don't think there is an answer I don't think I don't think [TS]

  that's the kind of thing that can change in a large company I think either it's a [TS]

  priority from the start or it's not [TS]

  and the elements that Google has that that enabled them to produce these kind [TS]

  of services that skill very well that prioritize all these things Apple [TS]

  doesn't have those elements and it in the same way that Google's never going [TS]

  to make something client side that has the kind of quality and taste of of an [TS]

  apple client side platforms and software I don't think Apple will ever have what [TS]

  it takes to make good quality services but the good thing in Apple's favor is [TS]

  that the thing that Apple has that measures I think it will seem not to [TS]

  have as it's kind of like it's one of the things he labels intangible and [TS]

  scarecrows cuz it's intentional but it's like it's it's more mysterious whereas [TS]

  the things that Google has our tangible and a great example of it is Google was [TS]

  a company that made web search and index the entire web which is amazing [TS]

  technical field right but they decided they want to have a client-side OS and [TS]

  they did that by making a client-side platform that they conclude took [TS]

  ownership of their own you know don't call it Javed Albuquerque NM their own [TS]

  API their you know their own ideas their own store like they understood if we [TS]

  want to have a client-side mobile platform we need to owner we need to own [TS]

  the technology from top to bottom we're gonna like to find the VMware going to [TS]

  find the language sort of you know Java whatever may decline [TS]

  stuff and we're gonna have the idea they understood that hey we were a [TS]

  server-side company but we want to get into client side and we have we can't do [TS]

  it by like licensing about yourself or someone else we have to take ownership [TS]

  of it so that is a tangible thing and I think that's proof that Apple could if [TS]

  you wanted to say we need to get into service side and we have but also say [TS]

  they had to say it and we need to take ownership of it the same way we take [TS]

  ownership of the inside the thing that's hard to transfer is like tasting culture [TS]

  and coolness that is much harder to do because like there is no coolness [TS]

  Department of Microsoft you can increase funding and 50% something that doesn't [TS]

  exist right that and maybe like I will designers are tangible we just tell them [TS]

  all but like that's hard to do because they don't want to leave that point [TS]

  gonna make something like that wouldn't work because the structure around them [TS]

  is different there like I think the tangible things like a server-side [TS]

  company proved that he can get into client side and take ownership of it I [TS]

  think there's no reason that a client-side company can't prove that it [TS]

  can get into service I don't take ownership of the text I could just [TS]

  didn't do it whereas the the intangibles about coolness and taste and design that [TS]

  is much harder to do like more rarely do you see a company like you know company [TS]

  like saying we're not cool stylish we're gonna put some effort on google has [TS]

  tried to increased style and so as Microsoft but none of them you know [TS]

  they're still there still not reaching the heights at Apple gets in terms of [TS]

  taste and design right they've both made efforts in that area but it seems harder [TS]

  do whereas I would say technology wise but Google has as much control over in a [TS]

  pending whatever the lawsuit is an Oracle but as much control over and like [TS]

  determining its own destiny for all of its core tech all that service id Tech [TS]

  of its clients high-tech hell they want to get back on the link now [TS]

  like they have taken ownership of their text back and so so as Microsoft had [TS]

  ownership and same thing with Amazon you know if they took in during the took [TS]

  ownership of it you know we're not gonna call Android it's going to be whatever [TS]

  the hell the Kindle assets right she s so I think I think it is totally within [TS]

  the realm of possibility too don't you do have to change how the company works [TS]

  like the structure and stuff like that but not in any more radical having [TS]

  Google had to change when [TS]

  you know this episode is brought to you in part by our friends at Squarespace [TS]

  Squarespace is as usual the online platform that makes it fast and easy to [TS]

  create your own professional website or portfolio for a free trial and 10% off [TS]

  the square space.com and use offer code ATP 10 for the show and the month of [TS]

  October could ATP Tennis check out 10 percent off Squarespace so we've been [TS]

  telling you all this time about Squarespace is awesome platform they're [TS]

  constantly improving it you can have new features new designs better support all [TS]

  the time [TS]

  seventy people dedicated to support and growing right here in New York City and [TS]

  Squarespace is awesome just $8 a month and includes a FREE domain name you sign [TS]

  up for a whole year upfront and they're responsive design SEO optimized [TS]

  templates everything that's where space is all set ready to go however what [TS]

  they've also added recently is this entire flexible commerce platform where [TS]

  space commerce is currently available in USA UK Canada Australia Belgium France [TS]

  Germany Holland Netherlands and Spain you can sell any kind of product using a [TS]

  very simple single interface digital goods physical goods whatever you want [TS]

  you can sell this Christmas commerce a partner with our friends at stripe and [TS]

  stripe is awesome and everyone loves them for very good reason [TS]

  strap handles everything so it doesn't charge any fees on top stripe takes 2.9% [TS]

  $0.30 per transaction [TS]

  that's it everything else is included in your Squarespace plan Christmas congress [TS]

  also offers an express checkout mode which bypasses the shopping cart [TS]

  interface if you want to the order management interface lets you track as [TS]

  seen in orders recent customer update emails you can print packing slips all [TS]

  from a single easy to use interface you even in agree with all the regulations [TS]

  so that they handle tax shipping rules everything that you need to know to be [TS]

  able to sell physical or digital goods there PCI compliant everything is secure [TS]

  SSL everything you want in an online store Squarespace Commerce offers so [TS]

  start of Travis Chris base today whether to do in commerce or just a site for [TS]

  yourself or blog or portfolio or a site for your business doesn't involve [TS]

  commerce whatever the case may be [TS]

  you can do it on Squarespace so they take care of the hosting so you don't [TS]

  have to be cancer free trial today with no credit card required a real free [TS]

  trial just goes where space.com start building your site see if you like it if [TS]

  you like it [TS]

  use coupon code ATP 10 at checkout for 10% off thanks a lot to Squarespace for [TS]

  sponsoring ATP there everything you need to create an exceptional website has [TS]

  been making me depressed because I've been wondering websites recently they [TS]

  look like they were designed in 1993 by some sleep aid tons of money like you [TS]

  know home improvement construction companies and their websites they look [TS]

  like they probably spent $15,000 to get some teenager 1994 to make a website [TS]

  Timberland Company and simple things like make appointments are by things [TS]

  like look like like $8 a month in squares Mason for the stripe for like [TS]

  that experience and as always it's cheaper for you it's nice if your [TS]

  customers you make more money it's it's so cheap it's especially good when you [TS]

  look at the prices for the work they're going to like you guys have the money [TS]

  you have all the money in the world you know the prices charged so cheap just [TS]

  get [TS]

  Squarespace but they're so proud of their sites like they invested so much [TS]

  money early on the writers like to tear it down like I was one of those people [TS]

  building the site for people and everything I built was terrible compared [TS]

  to what like any modern web CMS out of the box everything I did back then was [TS]

  horrible and a chargeable so much money does it was all one off but now you [TS]

  don't now you can just go to the big platforms and like I want early all [TS]

  these restaurants / only sites don't get me started they have to be losing more [TS]

  than $8 a month in sales to keep having their stupid flashed some sites to get a [TS]

  clue but they still like you can tell they had they paid someone in the last [TS]

  ten years to do it but it's still gross it's still I can just place just [TS]

  described every time I go I cannot recognize like the stripe form like the [TS]

  fact that it's all clients I dare say so beautiful just like I feel kind of bad [TS]

  because you know I made e-commerce sites too and it used to be such a pain to [TS]

  make e-commerce sites like if we had straight back when we were done in the [TS]

  afternoon [TS]

  has all the features that it's been like months implementing like manually you [TS]

  know if they weren't you know there was no companies that you could like out [TS]

  sources do we do no one knew what they were doing well just like I guess we'll [TS]

  take money from people over the computer it seemed like a crime get away with [TS]

  something but yeah and structurally isn't that old like I like when it came [TS]

  out was the maybe three years ago I mean it's not that old and like I just member [TS]

  even that even like three years ago making money online was still a hassle [TS]

  you basically had like the PayPal API which is a disaster of in every possible [TS]

  way I cannot having run-ins with the PayPal EBI I cannot tell anybody enough [TS]

  how much they should not use PayPal for any of it if you even if you ignore all [TS]

  of the crazy stories about how people like how the paper how locks your [TS]

  account to your money that's bad enough but even when everything's working as [TS]

  intended [TS]

  it's terrible it's absolutely the worst thing in the universe like end for [TS]

  managing recurring subscriptions there's no way to get a list of subscribers [TS]

  still there is still no way to get a list you just have to take it all those [TS]

  messages saying hey new person and keep track of yourself like newsstand only [TS]

  came to that news then that's true I think yeah the new stan has the weird [TS]

  thing we could I don't know anybody like PayPal is the worst like one strike came [TS]

  out a few years ago whenever that was the reason why I made such a splash was [TS]

  like they they're on their page it was like here is like a curl command and [TS]

  here's a block of JSON the equivalent that like here's how you charge [TS]

  somebody's card and it's like these you know four lines or JSON guys one girl [TS]

  come in you're like oh my god that's so much better than anything I've ever seen [TS]

  to this message that there was the Amazon Payments story in the [TS]

  newsweek around like speaking of the death of PayPal PayPal is the Experts [TS]

  Exchange for yes exchange as insert the blankets to pay power and insert the [TS]

  blanket Amazon Payments stripe and all the other companies that finally [TS]

  recognized that despite PayPal being the 800 pound gorilla everybody hates it's [TS]

  terrible [TS]

  indeed the diet all it takes is you know some new services that way out to all as [TS]

  we are to be seen to ALA heard of it but I like the the interest free lending [TS]

  thats keep I think your quarter and you can see you can pay a quarter and yeah [TS]

  it's like it basically I am not sure how it works I think it might be based on a [TS]

  CH or something it but somehow it doesn't use the credit card networks to [TS]

  move money around so they charge only 25 cents but then there's like no fraud [TS]

  protection like it's it works a lot like cash something like that I get it I [TS]

  don't know all the details but somehow they're able to only charged $0.25 for [TS]

  pretty much any size money transfer and a complicated money-laundering scheme [TS]

  that you are you an unwitting participants what was weird is like so I [TS]

  signed up for that a few months ago that that's how we're doing some of our ad [TS]

  payments and liked it it feels wrong because it's so like it feel suspicious [TS]

  to me to only pay 25 cents to move a giant chunk of money somewhere like I i [TS]

  dont know it made me uneasy but you know it it shouldn't it shouldn't though [TS]

  because like it's all the fact that it costs money to transfer money is an [TS]

  artificial constructs artificial constructs based on the old world by now [TS]

  that we have all our computers are connected together like the problem is [TS]

  there's no sort of secure standard for [TS]

  there's no common security standard for transferring money on the corner [TS]

  whatever you know like like really secure and everything is kind of strange [TS]

  game of like Trustin you know parties are sufficiently trustworthy the end and [TS]

  you assume that they're not you know like and then they they communicate over [TS]

  this terrible protocol that it's like a check you know where you just like the [TS]

  account number and routing [TS]

  number and somehow you can send money into people's accounts like the entire [TS]

  banking system has not kept up with current technology it's all kind of a [TS]

  house of cards they were just you know kind of their alright everybody was just [TS]

  not enough blood assists you know things like Paula come in and it does seem like [TS]

  you know what it shouldn't we should be able to transfer money see mostly from [TS]

  account to account why why we need a middleman for that it's because well we [TS]

  don't have any real secure protocols and if we did the NSA would be stopping you [TS]

  know what kind of along same lines as a square cash which I think was under [TS]

  guard sent sent him maybe not somebody sent me hester select right out and [TS]

  basically what's the way it works is you send an email to whoever whomever [TS]

  whatever is supposed to receive the money [TS]

  UCC their email address let the square cash email address and you put the [TS]

  dollar amount subject line and then Square will send an email to the person [TS]

  receiving the cash saying we think somebody's about to pay you hold on they [TS]

  send an email to the person that sent it so they sent it to you saying hey man or [TS]

  girl are you really sure you want to send this money and then what happens is [TS]

  the person receiving the money just inputs their debit card account number [TS]

  and all the money transfer nothing's $0.50 a transfer and I'm sure there's a [TS]

  limit in terms of how much you can send but I don't know what it is so it must [TS]

  be pretty high and that's it it's worth it works flawlessly dollar-something to [TS]

  try it out yet that was pretty neat people that I remember saying that they [TS]

  have a system in Europe that works but this does not surprise me [TS]

  Europe has has all the night Europe is the new Japan already used to be that in [TS]

  Japan they have like flying cars and her boards and then we had nothing at all we [TS]

  have the Azores like da kine Casio keyboards but they have the cool stuff [TS]

  and then their economy tanked but now it's like you know in Europe they have [TS]

  you know socialized medicine [TS]

  and unemployment and switzerland was passing a law that for the minimum [TS]

  monthly income to be the equivalent of $2,800 for all citizens we get so much [TS]

  email from this from people who are like I can't believe how terrible your system [TS]

  in the US's don't you know how much better this is in Europe and the answer [TS]

  is yes we know we are we are very aware of how terrible our system his please [TS]

  you'll have to tell us other I think like i mean they're saying you know they [TS]

  just need some two numbers they could transfer money just like they still [TS]

  don't have the coins actually at the forefront of this technology as sad as [TS]

  it is with their you know crazy thing they have going on there at least they [TS]

  have sort of an attempt to make a secure you know mathematical foundation for [TS]

  distributed middleman list transfers that everyone can be assured are you [TS]

  know happening correctly you know what else you're right and I bring this up [TS]

  only briefly cuz I just watched a video from Mythbusters about this is [TS]

  roundabouts so the Mythbusters which are clearly the the bastion of all things [TS]

  good about science and they never ever flub anything ever they did a test with [TS]

  a four way stop versus around about the roundabout crush the four way stop in [TS]

  terms of throughput and stuff that wasn't me I don't even think that's up [TS]

  for debate i think i think almost every study has always proven that roundabouts [TS]

  really are way better for throughput ya know we have a ton of them around you [TS]

  have them down for you guys ever get Massachusetts the land of the round [TS]

  about them now they're all over the place where they're becoming popular [TS]

  here and it's funny watching everyone tried to navigate them because nobody [TS]

  knows what they're doing [TS]

  John while I'm thinking of it how's the review going do you feel like you have a [TS]

  release date based on the October 22nd iPad everyone's kind of assuming will be [TS]

  Mavericks as well and we gotta get the GMB [TS]

  hours after the election that's right that's right it turned out that Apple [TS]

  Insider story that was pooh-poohing like they had it right it was just they were [TS]

  talking about the people who get like the early see it as soon as I start and [TS]

  went to the Apple website and saw nothing there I'm like oh maybe it's [TS]

  just bogus but it was just you know staged roll out the super duper [TS]

  Appleseed program people got it and then got it so there ya have got to gym [TS]

  boo I had to redo a bunch of screenshots got the things they change just insane [TS]

  like they change functionality to slide like rewrite the entire section because [TS]

  everything I had written about in all the screenshots taken were no longer [TS]

  there and the worst thing about the section had to rewrite is I don't [TS]

  understand one of the things that they changed like they changed the pop-up [TS]

  menus where they are like that what the choices are and understand all the [TS]

  choices except for one and so like right now in my review I have written that I [TS]

  could not figure out what this meant like I tried maybe means this trial no [TS]

  trial I could not figure out of course I asked so many questions but they ignore [TS]

  me so maybe I'll be wrong but having a gem bill is good so I did a lot of work [TS]

  revising things by the end I was getting pissed because it's like you know you [TS]

  know the labels are the tag things or whatever in the Finder public eye color [TS]

  dot next to the fire and rain as you give it like a red lip they change the [TS]

  size of those dots pixel guy just a troll you every single screen shot that [TS]

  have to forget I was like and I like the old times better like they made them [TS]

  like lightly small like I'll come on his own now just like if I had to redo a [TS]

  screenshot cuz they totally change or something works fine but I had to redo [TS]

  the dots mark that's this cruel like the one I tweeted was that one pop-up menu [TS]

  was like two pixels farther away from the label we have to have like some some [TS]

  very high ranking Design Manager on OS ted has to be a listener the show I [TS]

  would just like to say that it and if that is the truth can you imagine even [TS]

  if it's just the whoever's in charge of that particular screen just singing [TS]

  themselves you know what I'm gonna troll John Siracusa moved from the pop-up menu [TS]

  like that when I kind of get a passport because it was misaligned in the [TS]

  pre-release felt like you know what it looks like a bunch of optimism still I [TS]

  can't unless you know their last ages all line up and one of them wasn't the [TS]

  top one was like sticking out more than they were simply correcting like this is [TS]

  something we did a once over every single screening getting one [TS]

  someone Interface Builder like didn't drag little things need to be like you [TS]

  know i mean and so they realigned its like you know I can retake the [TS]

  screenshot like it's just that point I was like really is every screen change [TS]

  in some small way people ask me on twitter is there anything that I let [TS]

  slide like if it's not off like that that I pick the right ones you see that [TS]

  is off I pixel you can't unsee it I'm not gonna leave the previous screenshot [TS]

  and not just because it's purely because it's like hey the top pop up menu is [TS]

  online someone screwed up and Interface Builder I'm gonna fix that one there in [TS]

  every viewer there's at least two or three shots that are not from gym and [TS]

  different ways that only I would notice and I've never been called on it so now [TS]

  I shouldn't say this was not someone's gonna go sit there in like radically [TS]

  different recycling find the one that but rest assured they will be shots in [TS]

  there that were taken not in the GM's the difference in material ways of like [TS]

  you know there that no one will ever notice and I'm ok with that because [TS]

  seriously gonna redo everything when he's the only person on earth who would [TS]

  notice is you are like the person to the graphic designers like I change that [TS]

  that's a different color now that's just you know no not even them like we'll see [TS]

  like it's cumbersome reading especially when like it was just a new screenshots [TS]

  fine but when I had read a whole section because they totally change the [TS]

  functionalities you a tool to the GM's bill to massively changes in personality [TS]

  its and do you think it's ready to be called a gym that's when they started [TS]

  doing this they'd be like here's the GMC Jimmy like what does that mean what does [TS]

  this mean you're seeing us the GMR is this mean that like it will be a ver si [TS]

  released [TS]

  where it says GMC to you because that's the big fear it's like white GMC to that [TS]

  shows that you're misinterpreting the previous title does not mean it was a [TS]

  seat at the gym it meant this is it's like it's like release candidate the [TS]

  terminology of like maybe this is GM's here you go you know and so I really [TS]

  hope they will not be another one this is GMC too and I don't think they're [TS]

  well [TS]

  I think that should be fine I need a price on a date to price in a date I [TS]

  have right now the text number of you says I don't know what the prices [TS]

  because now I can press the button and like publish it and you know I can [TS]

  submit to any bookstore and it would be a valid assuming they don't change the [TS]

  gym right but I also have two morrow different versions based on two [TS]

  different guesses about the price movie so I need a price and date I'm waiting [TS]

  patiently house overcast known as observers also brought to you in part by [TS]

  Audible audible is the leading provider of downloadable audiobooks but over a [TS]

  hundred and fifty thousand titles in virtually every genre their catalogs [TS]

  huge is constantly only a few months ago we were saying a hundred thousand [TS]

  downloads are titles now at a hundred and fifty thousand they're huge and [TS]

  always going if you want to listen to it audible has it you can listen to audio [TS]

  books anytime anywhere they support iPhones iPads computers Kindles even [TS]

  older iPods if you're one of those people still carrying on iPod or if you [TS]

  want to exercise or whatever the case maybe you can even play audio books [TS]

  there are audible offering ATP listeners a free audiobook along with a 30 day [TS]

  trial go to audible podcast dot com slash ATP take advantage of the special [TS]

  offer so John from what I understand you actually have a book recommendation and [TS]

  a new book recommendation because anyone has listened to my past podcast knows [TS]

  that he's talked about the same three books over and over again this is one of [TS]

  them but it's a different context this time it's in the context of an audiobook [TS]

  this book is i i don't realize I refuse but this is the favorite my favorite [TS]

  buyer it ever read it also won a pulitzer prize so it has some pedigree [TS]

  to it and it is also interesting only a book that most people will never ever [TS]

  read on their own in paper form because it's like over a thousand pages and [TS]

  truth be told it's like if you're not into the subject matter that's a lot of [TS]

  pages to read about one person no matter how interesting there were no I am super [TS]

  into this this one person because he is out Robert Moses I knew the CPS and I [TS]

  grew up on Long Island [TS]

  and I went to all the beaches and parks they talk about in here and it's just an [TS]

  amazing experience for me I'm such a crazy now big fan of around to read [TS]

  about how all these things that I enjoyed my youth came to be in there [TS]

  sort of tortured history and the interesting man that was behind them and [TS]

  you know it really is an amazing book but I recognize when I recommend it to [TS]

  people like that like yeah I'm going to read this book over several so get the [TS]

  audiobook and this like everything about this over Marcus if you like to bridge [TS]

  things this is an unabridged audiobook and a thousand page kills prize-winning [TS]

  biography today having a bridge between us like admit to yourself that you're [TS]

  never gonna read it right and instead just uses an audiobook 66 hours like [TS]

  more than two and a half days of cardio he said you're going on like a cross [TS]

  country drive or something this is what you want this I mean think about the [TS]

  value getting for your money for this just unbelievable value enriching your [TS]

  life in a way that you would never do on your own because you have to admit to [TS]

  yourself that you're never going to read this book but you will just stick it in [TS]

  your iPod to listen to it on your drive to and from Europe colleges across the [TS]

  country whatever so highly recommended the power broker realtor prize-winning [TS]

  by Robert Caro a man with an amazing accent your YouTube videos all about [TS]

  long out and Robert Moses two things near and dear to my heart that is [TS]

  awesome [TS]

  Robert Moses himself because he was terrible person but I read the book [TS]

  alright thanks to Michael John Siracusa [TS]

  thanks a lot to audible for sponsoring ATP go to audible podcast dot com slash [TS]

  ATP take advantage of our free 30 day trial [TS]

  thanks a lot audible so it was that your hint that you don't want to know or [TS]

  don't want to share what's going on with overcast there's not a whole lot to [TS]

  share I mean the week went by I am working on it I've been working on it [TS]

  I'm doing a little more with the sync engine today I was running playlist sink [TS]

  and a couple of other preference Inc type of things I mean nothing really [TS]

  exciting [TS]

  optimizations fixes and just moving forward with the feature set adding [TS]

  podcast podcast that's all like still in the works there's still a whole lot [TS]

  missing but that's about it not a gamer in the chat wants you to talk about [TS]

  pricing for the app and and I pricing is interesting but honestly I have not [TS]

  really made a decision yet and there's I'm not just saying that to to be coy I [TS]

  really haven't decided what I'm going to do yet there's a lot of options I really [TS]

  don't think I'm going to do the paid up front [TS]

  thing there's there's a lot of value to that and I could with the new iOS 7 [TS]

  receipt validation API I could launch as paid up front [TS]

  see how it goes and then moved to free with a purchase and simply migrate those [TS]

  users over who bought it you can migrate them over and you you basically know if [TS]

  they bought the paid version or not when you make the same app free so you could [TS]

  move from paid to fit within a purchase easily for the first time afterwards [TS]

  before before iOS 7 you could not do that there were no need to thank [TS]

  everybody so I could do that and I i'm I've certainly thought about doing that [TS]

  I'm leaning towards not but the reality is also I'm probably still at least [TS]

  three to four months away from release at least that's why you know i i i said [TS]

  im gonna try it out this year it reality I think like January or February is is [TS]

  more realistic and more likely so all these pricing dynamics could be [TS]

  different then like I might change my mind the business model in the last [TS]

  month I I really don't know so that's about it I guess bTW 14 in the chat ask [TS]

  you a question which I address on another show I don't think I addressed [TS]

  here [TS]

  iTunes Match style subscription to remove ads and give the money to the [TS]

  podcasters basically the readability model collecting money from people and [TS]

  then distributing it to what you listen to [TS]

  there's a number of practical problems to that most of which is what [TS]

  readability faced bitches if you default to collecting money for everyone without [TS]

  them claiming it's kind of weird and there's a lot of issues with the head [TS]

  you could do something I can agree with flatter fighters decent service you know [TS]

  I really my style but but it's a good service and they have good intentions [TS]

  and stuff like that I think the biggest problem with the podcast app or platform [TS]

  collecting money for everybody and distributing it out is that I don't [TS]

  think you could agree I don't think you could get any number of podcasts to [TS]

  really agree on how they want to do that how they want a message that how they [TS]

  want to receive that money a lot of podcasts already collect money directly [TS]

  through themselves and wouldn't want the competition [TS]

  a lot of them it would cause confusion as to who the people should be paying [TS]

  the advertisers but I mean it's not good for advertisers either because like that [TS]

  hybrid thing makes nobody happy like you can even have a broadcast at this [TS]

  listener supported buchanan podcast is ad-supported but when you try to do both [TS]

  it's likely advertisers are pissed the not getting those people who are like [TS]

  paying to skip their ads and so you like your advertising to fewer people and [TS]

  then some people are pissed because they feel like they have to pay for it or [TS]

  should papers they can skip the ads that some people are skipping ads and they're [TS]

  not so it's much cleaner to say look it's free [TS]

  supported by ads or its you pay for it and you know they give you like the [TS]

  magazine top model wears no ads you just pay money like those are such so clean [TS]

  and understandable you don't understand fusion hybrid solutions like especially [TS]

  hybrid solutions that but you impose on people that they haven't chosen to do [TS]

  just exactly and John and it wasn't one last hypocritical episodes were you [TS]

  talked about how advertisers almost always outbid the listeners or [TS]

  indirectly you know that's that's very true like almost always a podcast can [TS]

  make more if you add them through direct payments but anyway there I don't think [TS]

  it's the platform or apps responsibility to let podcasts to to monetize podcasts [TS]

  I think every show is gonna have a different audience with different needs [TS]

  and different priorities and I i think I should just leave it up to the show's [TS]

  and their producers how they want to monetize and where they want to do that [TS]

  also for a practical point of view what didn't instant cast have flattered [TS]

  integration for a while and it cost tons of problems with a preview [TS]

  like anytime you collect money in a nap either not through Apple or if you're [TS]

  collecting money to distribute and some other weird way you know went up in the [TS]

  app you're running a very big risk of being rejected for any update you try to [TS]

  make or being kicked out of the store when you're already in it and that's [TS]

  that's right tiptoeing along the line of what Apple will allow within a purchase [TS]

  rules and it is just ok thank you underscore David Smith it is it is just [TS]

  not worth even risking that and and to build a major feature around depending [TS]

  on that is not wise so not only do I think it wouldn't really get past Apple [TS]

  very reliably but I also don't think it's a very good idea for one particular [TS]

  podcast app or even any group of them to try to create and enforce a new [TS]

  universal podcast monetization model where every shows gonna do something [TS]

  different and even like even the language around collecting the money [TS]

  like I've I talked forever ago on building analyzed about flatter and and [TS]

  joy I think in a couple of things like that where I was saying I don't like [TS]

  that I don't like the idea of having like a tip jar on my site you know like [TS]

  this to socially that's kind of a weird thing to me and I would want to very [TS]

  carefully control any language or implication or pressure around asking [TS]

  people to give me money for something and everyone's gonna have different [TS]

  opinions on what that is for them and what what do what they want to present [TS]

  to people what they want to ask people to give to do and in what context with [TS]

  what language so that there isn't one solution that's going to please [TS]

  everybody who cares about the stuff as much as I do you know another thing that [TS]

  we've got a lot of feedback on and I don't know if there's really anything [TS]

  you can do have to say about this but a lot of people seem to take offense at [TS]

  you saying that the Now Playing screen is the only thing that matters do you [TS]

  have anything that you care about [TS]

  and maybe not I don't know I mean I don't I can see both sides of the story [TS]

  so I don't know I don't have any particularly strong opinions about it [TS]

  but I don't know if you had anything to say yeah I mean I don't take too long in [TS]

  this cause I don't know big too boring but the last episode I i I threw off the [TS]

  comment that I was focusing a lot of my design effort on the Now Playing screen [TS]

  and at the rest of the app could just be like a book a table using it wouldn't [TS]

  matter that much because you know you spend the most time navigating now [TS]

  playing screen and whatever whatever exactly I said there we had a lot of [TS]

  emails from people saying that's wrong as soon as I start playing a show I turn [TS]

  the screen off the phone in my pocket and that's it so I'm interacting more [TS]

  with the rest of the app so what are what I was getting at whether I said it [TS]

  or not who knows if I messed up oh well that's the reality of talking for two [TS]

  hours every week [TS]

  unrehearsed preparation what I what I mean is he now plays for his very [TS]

  frequent interaction with your skipping a section or using the scrubber or [TS]

  playing and pausing casino you to listen to something somewhere else [TS]

  very freaky interaction some of that you can do it the remote but the clicker in [TS]

  some cases some of it you cancel your doing directly so that screams to me [TS]

  like everything else about the app it matters a lot less how it's designed it [TS]

  because of how you desire you're probably going through some kind of list [TS]

  or collection of shows that each within it has a list of episodes or email you [TS]

  have playlist that have that have a list of episodes of them them whenever the [TS]

  cases those are pretty straight forward designs like yeah you can you can tweak [TS]

  in here and there you can add to flourish here in there that you know [TS]

  there's there's a lot of little decisions you can make differently but [TS]

  structurally navigation only the rest of the app is not that hard to design it [TS]

  just isn't it's you know if you want to go that route with with your podcast app [TS]

  feel free but the fact is it doesn't matter how I present a list of episodes [TS]

  in the grand scheme of things I'll try to do as I can but it's not I'm not [TS]

  losing sleep over that the Now Playing screen there's more variability although [TS]

  you wouldn't know it by looking at the apps out there right now but the ability [TS]

  how that can be designed and I think it matters more because maybe you're [TS]

  interacting with it for a split second and putting it back in your pocket but [TS]

  what if you're jogging or what if you're in a car and you can't really look at it [TS]

  safely there a situation like this where it matters how it's designed it matters [TS]

  how it's laid out it matters what's on there and what's not to a level that i [TS]

  think is more nuanced and more important and hearts design for than a list of [TS]

  episodes that's what I meant I think I understood what you meant and what I [TS]

  would have said to my interpretation of what it was that that's where you're [TS]

  concentrating your development effort for the 1.0 because you have to pick [TS]

  something but the one kernel of truth I think was in all the feedback from my [TS]

  perspective is when I think of podcast absolutely no don't use an iPod shuffle [TS]

  that the problem that I would like solved by them that just not solved [TS]

  adequately by most the ones I use is part of the particular way that idea was [TS]

  deciding what I'm going to listen to like when I do it manually [TS]

  it's terrible process of using iTunes iTunes 11 has gotten even worse about [TS]

  this is hunting around for the stupid things dragging them onto my iPod [TS]

  shuffle you know if I'm like a good hunt around for all them and then drag the [TS]

  mall once but unlike after doing two or three trips then I go over the iPod [TS]

  shuffle and all those things are down at the bottom and then I manually drag them [TS]

  up into the order they want and rearrange them and then wait for the [TS]

  sinking right because I have no idea what I want to like okay well today I'm [TS]

  going to do this and then I wasn't that when it comes out and then I'm going to [TS]

  be engine catch up with this podcast and and when I go on this car trip on to [TS]

  these things are so that whole idea of like managing what I'm going to listen [TS]

  to next is the thing that i think is not solved by the current crop land by the [TS]

  current couple I I was broadcast applications and so even though I I [TS]

  would be spending most of my time in the now playing screen features that are [TS]

  important to me are the ones that let me sort of setup my Q no Netflix queue [TS]

  whatever like here's what I'm gonna listen to next make you assist random [TS]

  arbitrariness not like one podcast a higher priority than the other or like [TS]

  there's no automated way to do it [TS]

  manually pick what what I want to listen to my daughter and that's that's what I [TS]

  if I had to pick another part of the UI for your story on that would be the [TS]

  second one because most of the time will be on even now playing screen or the [TS]

  controls on this leads to an arrest ever but to get to that screen at all I have [TS]

  to sort of like you setup makes sense like this i think is that I don't I'm [TS]

  assuming you're not telling us every single feature that you can have the [TS]

  application cause why would you know that's something for people to keep in [TS]

  mind as they don't realize that you're not going to reveal everything up each [TS]

  of those Apple however that you're playing in the future cuz I just not [TS]

  what you do when you're making an application is why would you give your [TS]

  competitors the head start and never mind the teachers that are going to be [TS]

  in version 1.1 and 2.0 and so on and so forth so I will keep that in mind [TS]

  oh yeah I mean that's going to like everything I'm talking about is 1.0 like [TS]

  as soon as I really sit there is hopefully going to be a lot of users and [TS]

  those lot of users are going to give me feedback and are going to use it and [TS]

  with it and expect and are going and I'm gonna see how it works with you know [TS]

  full scale and how the server stuff works and how the have a structure of [TS]

  the app works however usually people are going to go to report problems or [TS]

  suggest improvements that I haven't bought and so all this planning and and [TS]

  all this thinking about the design of making the decisions that's hot as for [TS]

  1.0 and it could all change like a month after release it I think about in [TS]

  September 1.0 now compared to you know the final version I don't even want to [TS]

  think about it so long way to go so it's a marathon not a sprint [TS]

  some people have nostalgia and and positive memories and they look back [TS]

  fondly on the stuff they made in the past I am NOT one of those people back [TS]

  on stuff I made like three years ago and was like oh I embarrassed like I I don't [TS]

  even want to think about it I don't want to look at it I i'm just deeply [TS]

  embarrassed by it which is probably unhealthy but he's moving forward at [TS]

  least now [TS]

  good yeah I think so cool thanks to sponsors this week [TS]

  Squarespace and audible and we'll see you next week after our singleton drip [TS]

  indeed now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin it was accidental [TS]

  accidental john Kasay [TS]

  cuz it was accidental and you can be there that's Casey list and a team Marco [TS]

  least we've ever gotten through a little notes documents back at ya now 10 follow [TS]

  up and put in the agency SHIELD item like right before the show and that's [TS]

  when we did this is the first time I've actually got the whole show without even [TS]

  looking at the document that it is exactly two and three cases as long as [TS]

  we stay strong [TS]

  not compromise with negotiate with terrorists here just because we have the [TS]

  majority two out of three people use document the document is official added [TS]

  or not [TS]

  ok so did you see that proposed put out a think that's axonal neutral beam or [TS]

  whatever [TS]

  talk about religious arguments that yes I realize they're actually controversial [TS]

  there there is a chance that we both we all three of us here that's being [TS]

  repaired now it's because it's the IMM er i know i know i understand anyway but [TS]

  like the nickname for the cars beemer that's well that's a religious debate is [TS]

  that the motorcycles are one are bitter or Beamer and the car is or being there [TS]

  and I think the cars access must be Bimmer if you sell it and this is why is [TS]

  devoid saying either of them i don't i don't want to have to deal with it [TS]

  Porsche Jaguar system around through ice and remember they were posted [TS]

  controversy [TS]