0:00:00Helen's has circular sounds really nasal. Yeah. Welcome to the show.
0:00:07We used a different version of the theme song last week.
0:00:12And so our friend of the show Jonathan Mann That's I'm a double and who is the guy who wrote the initial theme song
0:00:19and the slightly beloved bleeps and bloops version which is the one that John likes but nobody else does.
0:00:26He took it upon himself to write a new version and we sprinkle that into the show or I should say Mark
0:00:30and sprinkle that into the show. You did you hear. Apparently on the after dark for this week's back to work.
0:00:36Merlin man our friend Marlon covered it briefly and said he was working on a full cover.
0:00:40I'm very much looking forward to hearing that and. Because the brief part that he did sounded really good.
0:00:54He was mad and sharp Hammarlund you can finish that up
0:00:56and we will play it look out the course does nothing for you it this is like. You should work for free for exposure.
0:01:04He does this now he does like style parodies like he did a lot of that with the voice of the male chimp.
0:01:15But anyway if I'm real listening he's doing a style parody I would like to request an R.E.M. Style parity.
0:01:21Use you can do like you know. Murmurs or fables or R.E.M. Right as we last.
0:01:29Speaking of working for exposure always gets the Penny Arcade thing. But first we have some follow up.
0:01:35Who want to talk about photo stream. Not it. John defaults to you.
0:01:40All right I mean I will keep talking about photo stream. And I don't remember where this thing came from. But how you.
0:01:47Dave who was last time I wanted him to pronounce because he can agree on how he wants people to pronounce his last name.
0:01:51but it starts with the H. I think it's Charedi A with it I think it's safe.
0:01:55He changes his mind I've heard him changes my anyway.
0:01:58He posted a link to this Knowledge Base article that looks like it is recent has a recent date on it
0:02:03and it looks like it's in response to confusion about photo stream.
0:02:08And the relevant passage here is it provides information that previously was not provided by any other document that
0:02:15it's not information about how photo stream works.
0:02:18It's information about motivations and that I think is what a lot of people are missing
0:02:23but you can explain all these rules and give out all these numbers and.
0:02:26You know put all these facts about it but it's like but why.
0:02:29Why what are you trying to do a photo stream So here's the important things.
0:02:32The photos that you upload to my photo stream are stored
0:02:34and I cried for thirty days to give your devices plenty of time to connect to i Cloud and download them.
0:02:40That's the key piece of missing information that I think is going to a lot of confusion.
0:02:43What's the point of what a shame. Is there to get your photo somewhere.
0:02:48That's not an individual device for thirty days so all your other devices can pull the stuff down.
0:02:53So all those limits in the numbers
0:02:55and everything whatever don't matter because bottom line is it's both a just be a temporary holding pen for your stuff.
0:03:01And it's most to stay there long enough for you to pull it down a notch on your other devices.
0:03:05So that nixes photo stream.
0:03:07As any sort of solution to any sort of ever pick like solution do to you know hold all my photos for me.
0:03:13Doesn't matter what the limits are doesn't matter thing else bottom line is it's not going to be there for more than
0:03:17thirty days the hope is just a holding area so I think that help that clarifies for me.
0:03:22And as I see that from Apple because I was my impression of how it worked or reading all the other things
0:03:26but seeing Apple explain. You know that simple sense explaining the motivation of the service.
0:03:31Makes it clear that this is just not accidental and
0:03:33when Taishan detail that soon it will hold all your photos over never the intention of this feature is just holding
0:03:38been an Apple saying it themselves so I feel a little bit. I feel like I understand poetry and live a more now.
0:03:43And now I know enough to not really pay attention to it no matter what they do with the limits.
0:03:48And speaking of a photograph threat of like in the show it's here that have almost nothing to say about except for.
0:03:54Here's another one of these things is called Space Monkey dot com. Tribble dubbed Space Monkey dot com.
0:03:58And it looks like some kind of hardware device. Combined with a software service kind of like ever picks.
0:04:02The Web site is it actually looks just like transporter actually. Like if you look at it.
0:04:08If you read into a little bit.
0:04:10It basically live
0:04:11and we should disclose transporter is a frequent sponsor of our show so take this with a grain of salt however it
0:04:15basically looks like transporter but with worse pricing.
0:04:19Well
0:04:19but they have a whole software component to where it's like it's both it's more like a media manager it's not just like
0:04:24arbitrary file storage transporter is sort of like application agnostic it is a place for data.
0:04:30And what data you put there is totally up to you.
0:04:32And this looks like it's trying to be a hybrid of of transport ever backs but I looked at his website for a while
0:04:38and is totally like a Web three point zero He kind of bootstrap built web site with animated stuff.
0:04:45I could not for the life of me figure out any like actual technical information about this thing.
0:04:49So yeah it's pretty light on the information and and pretty heavy on like the marketing titles and and graphics
0:04:56but actual information is hard to come by this could be awesome could be terrible I don't know I just want to throw it
0:05:01out there as yet another one of these things. That is trying to solve the problem of where we proly joke.
0:05:07And on the final thing on this topic is we talked briefly about box yesterday
0:05:11and how it was kind of like an enterprise focus version or Dropbox and either said
0:05:16or strongly implied that box could be self hosted and I got an e-mail from a box
0:05:20and going say the box is not self posted.
0:05:23Also it's not called Box dot net anymore there was the old name that I said in the past though it's.
0:05:27It's they dropped the dot net.
0:05:28And it was not self hosted they host it for you and the difference is between this
0:05:32and Dropbox according to this box employ are that they manage their own data centers they don't put stuff in S three so
0:05:38there's little bit more. You know. Deterministic security about the data is not just put in another bucket.
0:05:44Through another third party just one you know box stores the data. They have admin tools and report.
0:05:49Again stuff that gives them more oversight on the data so if you need some sort of order to get reporting they can
0:05:54provide that to you in stead of again relying on Amazon to do that.
0:05:57And they're complying with a bunch of certifications and all the good stuff so.
0:06:01Thanks to the Vox employee for the clarification and.
0:06:05I think if you go to Boston other redirects But anyway go to Bucks dot com and you'll find. It seems like a box is.
0:06:11I almost said but I thought not because that's how it out of it.
0:06:14It's one of the services that like has like a billion users. Effectively and Geeks in our circles.
0:06:20Almost never even considered existing almost never think about it because it's enzymes are used right it's not used by
0:06:26mac nervous laptops of use like. You know in the enterprise a lot and a lot of P.C.
0:06:30Users use it and it's as if it's like stumble upon when one stumble upon first became big or even more recently
0:06:37when Pinterest. Started growing like crazy and the entire like tech geek world was basically ignoring it.
0:06:44Because you know it was. It was so popular among women. And the tech world is so dominated by men the lease of the.
0:06:51The online press part of it that it was like invisible to that world
0:06:55and all of a sudden rose oh my God this is huge that I think that's how boxes like it's.
0:07:01It's really massive and tons of people use it but we hardly ever see it.
0:07:05And now that I'm using it every day now and it does it work similarly to Dropbox but with an enterprise bent.
0:07:11Could they have picked a different name at least I mean if they're going to go from Boston to something else could they
0:07:15have not made this very similar to drop box service name box. Yeah well. They've got to strengthen the enterprise.
0:07:24You want to drop your sort your software used bucks. Wow. I thought the box predated Dropbox.
0:07:30That is completely not fact checked but I thought that was the case.
0:07:34It's been around for a while anyway it's not some new thing. Was there something called X. Tried before B.M.W.
0:07:39That wasn't like a something kind of similar would give you like an X. A drive letter on your Windows P.C.
0:07:45Case you know about this. Obviously John would.
0:07:47I actually don't know about this but it sounds like something that Windows.
0:07:51And the barrel is something that would be for the Windows platform. Yeah. Anyway.
0:07:58The Chad is saying that box dot net because at the time it was called box that is two thousand
0:08:02and five Dropbox two thousand and eight hour right. Obviously that matters a lot now.
0:08:09So let's move on to our first aid results Casey how did you do.
0:08:15Running Disk Utility as John assigned us in the last episode. Right so Captain paranoid.
0:08:20Explain to us that we should be running Disk Utility on an hourly basis. And verifying. Everything under the sun.
0:08:27No repair you've got to repair verify while the verify you got to repair my apologies your correction or to repair.
0:08:33Everything under the sun and this is a real pain in the in the
0:08:35but if you run on a laptop like I do because you've got to reboot and see recovery mode blah blah blah.
0:08:41Well anyway so I as I've mentioned numerous times I have two fifteen inch higher as anti-glare macro pros with optical
0:08:47drives there both day and night. Yeah exactly. That's that.
0:08:52So actually you could say that does one's work once not but anyway.
0:08:55The point is the point is I tried it on both of them. And one has an S.S.D. One does not.
0:09:02And both of them had errors which were able to be fixed by Disk Utility So as much as I begrudge Captain paranoid for
0:09:10making me worry about something that I didn't really feel like worrying about it ended up it was for the best so thank
0:09:14you John. And by the way I do recommend running a marathon your boot drive is then you don't have to reboot like the.
0:09:19The common case like of like oh. Everything is fine.
0:09:22You will be able to just run verifying your boot if you start to walk away from the computer because it will totally
0:09:26make your computer. Unusable. But just didn't do it when you go in for lunch or something and.
0:09:31Most of the time when you come back you'll say oh verify checked and it's fine.
0:09:34I only recommend repairing externals because if verify finds errors the very next thing you're going to do is repair
0:09:39and it takes a similar amount of time to do both verify and repair.
0:09:42So when you drive your only choices verify so do that on an external drives in my latest to repair because that's the.
0:09:47That's authentic loser. If there are any errors and there's not any error is their equivalent.
0:09:53Here's a question is there.
0:09:54Is there much of a reason
0:09:55or even is it possible to do this on a network time machines like we have it with this analogy set up where.
0:10:02So knowledge ease using.
0:10:03You know open source whatever component to host Time Machine shares which I think are stored as giant sparse images
0:10:10or something like that.
0:10:11Does any part of this apply to those Yeah I know any volume you can mount you can ANY age of us.
0:10:16Plus all you can mount you can do this to our sparse images age of us.
0:10:19Plus interview no underneath there is an active us plus volume. OK.
0:10:23Like that's what amounts but it but it does its thing. All right then you about didn't see it in Disk Utility.
0:10:29I don't believe
0:10:29but you have to make it might like Time Machine does this sneaky they were all connected this analogy
0:10:34and mount device you look at your desktop you can see it appear sometimes but it's not you know.
0:10:38It makes it all go away when the backup just on you know. Sometimes in a seat at all and you can manually. Now.
0:10:42You mainly mount the share.
0:10:44Just like you know just today I learned about double click the farce bundle that yeah yeah yeah yeah. OK All right.
0:10:51Moving right along the whole the whole of oh you know go away. MARTIN Oh yeah. I might have done my homework.
0:10:58There's a surprise. Well John told me that not to run it while you're using it. And so I've been using it.
0:11:04But you gotta run our internal drive you don't have more than one drive right.
0:11:08All right well you didn't do your homework it's OK lots of other people did who filled up the survey should mention
0:11:12that after the show actually thought it was during the show
0:11:14but after the show last week I said you know what we should get some information on this.
0:11:18I wonder how many people listen to last episode
0:11:20and decided I'm going to run disutility L.-I desks just like they talked about on the show
0:11:25and I wanted to how they did so I tweeted out. A link that said hey if you.
0:11:28If you listen to the show last week and decide to run Disk Utility.
0:11:32Tell me how it turned out as the two questions survey.
0:11:35And I tweeted I think I did an app that net and and Marco put it in the show notes but it wasn't mentioned on the show.
0:11:41And we got a lot of people replying.
0:11:43Both before and after the server pine OK Alison your show
0:11:46and I did stuff in about a couple of programs a couple tweets here one of them. One person said. This from D.C. Up.
0:11:52Ran Disk Utility last week and it reported errors rebooted and repair was not possible.
0:11:56So did verify and it reported it was OK.
0:11:59Lots of things like where they'll run it
0:12:01and it will say there's a problem they'll try to repair it will say Sorry couldn't repair and then it's OK or.
0:12:05They'll be areas and they won't care thought there is no law
0:12:07and that's not reassuring ten people handballs like your own no I said there was there is but now there's not a guess.
0:12:12Everything's fine but instead you get this feeling of unease about. You know you know about that.
0:12:17Here's another one random you tell him I started discus by R Y B. I'm not look after the first time in over a year.
0:12:23It's fixed a free block count error which freed up seventy gigabytes crazy.
0:12:28So that person got seven here by the disgrace back because it apparently is of us. Plus the lost track of the.
0:12:33The free block out. Well. And you know it's like their trees right so if you. If you have a missing.
0:12:39If the whole subquery goes missing in the metadata.
0:12:42It could potentially be pointed to lots of information so he got seventy.
0:12:47This is from Evie Q ran Disk Utility got an error.
0:12:51Fall the instructions and then Disk Utility recovery from no errors again spooky.
0:12:56And lots of reports of what happened to me with my Time Machine volume which is it had errors that I want to repair
0:13:03and it said Sorry can't repair and then after that the disk was on mountable.
0:13:07And that leads to something else I should talk about.
0:13:09Last week verify disk is in theory a read only operation Repair Disk is going to make changes to your disk.
0:13:14Those changes may be harmful to your disk but if it's got areas anyway you say well what areas
0:13:19but seems to be working fine.
0:13:22You can take that into account say look this thing has errors but before even try to repair.
0:13:27Let me make sure that I have like this goes back to the multiple backup thing. You know.
0:13:31Be aware that attempting to repair an error.
0:13:33As I described in last week's show could make the disk even worse off than it was. It doesn't mean that it was.
0:13:38You should really use that backup before
0:13:40but it could make things worse so I always have multiple bags before you start messing with anything before you start
0:13:45writing data to any disk make sure that is not your only backup.
0:13:50And I don't know what else to do people like you found out what should do if that's your only backup and it has errors.
0:13:54It's like well. Is your source this go OK because of your source because OK.
0:13:58Make a second backup from now before you start screwing with the other one right don't. Don't just rush into it.
0:14:03Or the one back up good. Anyway.
0:14:05I would say that your story last week about how both your primary volume
0:14:09and your Time Machine backup were both corrupted.
0:14:12That is as big an ad is any for four super duper clones and cloud backup store.
0:14:20Services like that that that just shows you right there like you know just one volume
0:14:24and a Time Machine backup are not really enough. I mean like.
0:14:28And the thing is if I had maybe if I checked more frequently.
0:14:31One of them went bad first and then I would have been able to.
0:14:33You know fix it from one to the other but like I maybe I waited too long didn't feel paranoid soon enough
0:14:39and hadn't checked it was going to say we saw a really good tweet from grading nearly who said.
0:14:46In the Army we had a saying pertaining to critical equipment to is one.
0:14:50One is none so it goes for backups and I and I think that's absolutely true.
0:14:54If you only have one backup that's effectively not really having a backup of at all especially if it's colocated with
0:14:59wherever your computer lives. Most of the time.
0:15:02Which is why the three of us are so excited for Crash plan or back please
0:15:07or whatever your online cloud backup system of choices.
0:15:10It's really nice to have that as well as something local
0:15:13or many things local although I dread ever having to restore from are those that really is my like my last last last
0:15:18resort.
0:15:19Like yeah that's why I like to have multiple local backups
0:15:21and I really want to the cloud backup to get house burns down
0:15:24but if it doesn't burn down that I don't want to have to go. That are unless I'm like you know.
0:15:29Away from my computer and I want to grab a file from back then it's kind of handed.
0:15:32Use whatever the I was up is fear thing and grab stuff. Yeah club back of his like it's.
0:15:37You can't really test it without just trying to pull a file off of it like. You can't really.
0:15:42You don't have the same kind of reassurance that you do with like a super duper super duper clone you can just boot
0:15:47from it. And just Seaver these OK boot from it once a month or something and just test it.
0:15:52You can't really do that with claw back and you just got you know you can try to pull a file off it but it's kind of.
0:15:56You know a process and if you ever do have to restore doing a full restore one you might be.
0:16:01You know downloading a terabyte of data off the Internet which might take a while.
0:16:05So it's you know it is always good to you know at the cloud backup really is your last resort.
0:16:10That said though I think. Regular volume plus time machine. Plus back please.
0:16:15I think it's a very good set up for most people like us you know. If you have extra hard line around.
0:16:20Yet make a super duper clone also.
0:16:22But regular plus Time Machine plus the back please I think is fine and or the other alternative is like I said.
0:16:28Run Disk Utility more often.
0:16:30So that you don't end up a situation they probably don't both go bad exactly the same time my one of them goes first
0:16:36and if you're running it off enough. You'll get in a situation where one went bad but one is good and you can quickly.
0:16:41You know do pout a second backup. And don't by the way if you have.
0:16:45If you only have two things your computer and a time machine disk. And the time machine.
0:16:49And the time machine just goes bad.
0:16:51Don't erase the time machine desk
0:16:53and then try to copy the backup to the soon as your racist time machine just now your data is in one place
0:16:57and the somewhere you never ever ever want to be like it's.
0:17:00You just don't ever be in that situation to place is bad enough.
0:17:04If you have two places
0:17:05and one is bad a bad back up is better than no backup do not arrays that disk just don't touch it put it aside.
0:17:10Get a new disk. Back up to that you know.
0:17:14This is why we want companies to take care of the stuff for us because this is way too much for a regular person to
0:17:18handle anyone listening to this is like I don't want to think about apply agree I don't want to think about it either.
0:17:22And I'd also don't think about bit rot in the fact that none of these things all this age of us.
0:17:28Plus checks are just checking the meditator they're not checking the data the data could be totally hosed we have no
0:17:32idea what state the data isn't. I don't think so the survey. The server that I sent out there.
0:17:43Think maybe the sample or maybe slightly biased because it's a group of people who listen to a nerdy podcast
0:17:48or who follow or nerdy person on Twitter. And maybe those people are more likely to do.
0:17:52Complicated things with their disks that in turn could cause more errors or something.
0:17:57The one thing the survey has going for it is.
0:18:01People didn't know whether they were going to find errors or not before they ran Disk Utility.
0:18:05Right so it's not like only the people who found area still does out the survey was.
0:18:09If you listen to the episode and ran desk utility What did you find and.
0:18:13None of those people OTA magine knew beforehand Well what they were going to find. So despite the sampling.
0:18:19The self selection of the people who take the survey I'm hoping it's not like that only the people who found there is
0:18:25filled out the survey. And the people who didn't find errors. Didn't bother to fill the survey. Because I guess.
0:18:30I don't know. I mean. I don't know how statistically valid this is let's just say. But anyway.
0:18:36You guys want to guess at the result I'll tell you that.
0:18:38Seven at the time I pulled the the data from it seven hundred fifty eight people had responded to the survey.
0:18:43Wow first. The first question was this is how smart if you listened up so forty X. and All tech podcasts.
0:18:49Subsequently registered toadies first aid function on one or more H.S.
0:18:52Plus alliances in compass all the discs I don't want to ask them individually or whatever. Did it find any errors.
0:18:57So if you have five disk new find errors on one of them you would say yes this is just basically saying you ran Disk
0:19:02Utility. On all your stuff. Did your stuff have any errors.
0:19:05And I didn't ask them how many disk you have around evolves ergs I don't want this to be true that we are going to a
0:19:10sponsor read to build suspense in the middle of this.
0:19:12Oh and then the second question was if you found errors with the repair.
0:19:16Function able to grab so I want you to to guess what you think you know. Did you find errors.
0:19:22Percentage wise men you know the numbers why you have to guess
0:19:25and then after the sponsor break I'll tell you the answer. For if you should guess. All right.
0:19:28My guess is the percentage of respondents who had errors found was thirty percent. I would guess. Seventy percent.
0:19:41Law which is aggressive.
0:19:43But I'm hoping that your right Marco because then maybe John will stop whining about each of us plus never like The
0:19:49Price is Right one dollar one dollar. Oh you want to read.
0:19:53Are we doing prices right rules or closest when this is important to close as
0:19:59when this episode is brought to you in part by our friends at Warby Parker they put the sponsors a couple months ago
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0:23:11When we when they sponsored an episode twenty six and. When I did the free trial on thing.
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0:23:28I actually ended up going with one of the pairs of sunglasses.
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0:23:53This is the most impressive glasses case they only have my prescription sunglasses that I've ever seen in my life.
0:23:57It is nice. Gigantic. And like it looks like you could run it over with a car and your glasses of be fine.
0:24:04The little box of the should be with a glass that was impressive but the case. Was I was also impressed by that.
0:24:09And it's nice on prescription sunglasses. The first time I feel fancy. All right.
0:24:17So what were the results of your survey John. So marker you said thirty percent.
0:24:21I said thirty percent and you said seventy percent. Now.
0:24:24What do you think is reasonable for the job of the file system is basically to keep track of where your crap is and.
0:24:30Markos number at thirty percent is that you're saying it's OK.
0:24:34That on thirty percent of the max out there are so many are sampling is significant.
0:24:39Are is representative of the mass of Nike is that it's OK for about thirty percent of the time for there to for each of
0:24:46us plus group for there to be potentially did a strong areas in case you think seventy to try to be dramatic
0:24:51but like that. I mean we all agree that seventy would be unreasonable.
0:24:56That have seventy percent of the max out there had errors on there you know the age of us plus errors on the disc we
0:25:01are not hardware problems they're just software problems like not keeping track of that would be on reason apply for
0:25:05sure anything more than zero in theory is unreasonable
0:25:08but now that you have to expect it wanted two percent are going to have problems some person kicked the plug out
0:25:12or there were some crazy like there's always going to be a little bit of bugs or whatever
0:25:15but I think once you start to get into double digit percentages. That's not like an aberration like.
0:25:21There was a power outage in the middle of the thing and I didn't notice and it just built up or.
0:25:25You know cosmic rays or whatever.
0:25:28Yeah I would say like ten percent should be cause for concern because then that's I would say anything over. You know.
0:25:34Double digit percentage like.
0:25:36That's come to some kind of systemic issue like bugs in the software that are not just cosmic rays
0:25:42or one off occurrences are our hardware related or maybe they could be are related but it seems like.
0:25:49A lot so I don't know what I expected these numbers to be but I kind of felt like they were going to be like.
0:25:54My guess would have been like fifteen eighteen percent that would have him I guess for.
0:25:59Because like ten percent seem low to me.
0:26:02But surely it's not on like more than maybe twenty percent because I know I find the errors
0:26:06and I know if I go to someone's computer and they never understood tell you they find errors
0:26:09but I figure again people who listen to spot gas.
0:26:11Are probably nerds
0:26:12and they know about Disk Utility I don't have to explain to anybody where it was like all these people found it
0:26:17themselves and ran it and did all the stuff themselves so maybe they'd run it before or whatever.
0:26:22But here the results the results were. You know.
0:26:25Did you find any errors again this is across all the disks that you try and I didn't ask them how many.
0:26:29Forty four point three percent found errors on their desks.
0:26:32Oh methadone Marco Marco is closer but that is shockingly close to half that's really bad. And that.
0:26:38That is much higher than I thought it would be I was thinking eighteen twenty percent.
0:26:42Maybe twenty five forty four that's that's grim I think.
0:26:46Second question was if the errors were found and was the repair function able to repair their.
0:26:53So of the people who found errors eight people didn't attempt to repair
0:26:57or didn't answer that question right I'm giving you percentages of like out of all the people who attempted to fix the
0:27:03error what percentage of those people with this you tell you were not with a third party told I was any else.
0:27:08How successful was this utility repairing there is care to guess what they put on it is there.
0:27:13I would say probably seventy five percent.
0:27:17Well see I think would be more than that I would think you'd be closer to ninety. Marco gets it again said.
0:27:23Seventy three point one seven percent. So you basically have a one in four shot.
0:27:29A little bit worse than a one in four shot Disk Utility being able to fix your errors.
0:27:34I don't know how represent of exults are but they are worse than I expected because I would have expected it.
0:27:39Areas to be on far fewer than forty four percent and I would expect would have expected disutility six
0:27:44or eight to be like. It seems like to me I just expected that we six that I was our ninety five percent.
0:27:48Something like that. Seventy two percent is not good.
0:27:51So that shows those errors weren't just one tiny letter is easy to fix but every type of
0:27:55or this utility confect Now some people reported to me that if you didn't a single user mode and you do F. A C. K.
0:28:00Manually. We're just more or less the same thing as this can tell a dozen of the covers.
0:28:04But I think we're using more you don't have any contention for that the catalog fall you're the only process running
0:28:08and stuff
0:28:09and some people are saying that it actually does repairs Disk Utility can't do I'm not sure how much truth there is to
0:28:13that but that is one more tool in your toolkit.
0:28:16If you get a disk this can to leave says it can repair you can reboot into single user mode if you're comfortable with
0:28:21that.
0:28:21And I feel like I should explain it because if you don't know what it is then you're not comfortable with it
0:28:27and run have to seek a couple of options and have it attempt to repair you the lion king again.
0:28:32If you're not comfortable this don't try to do it it's very easy to do the wrong thing from the command line in single
0:28:36user mode. But if you're comfortable with it it's worth a try and that's pretty that's pretty bad and.
0:28:43I don't want to encourage you to go on another fossils from rant but that I mean. Well.
0:28:49The it's we've been this will mean we haven't beaten a source Johns beaten a source. But anyway.
0:28:54You know what the file system is one job which is not screw up your data and.
0:28:58It's of us plus it's just not cut the mustard apparently.
0:29:01And that's not even your data forget who knows what state your data is this is just keeping track of where stuff is
0:29:07that stuff the same as your data is the same as when you wrote it. Who the hell knows.
0:29:11Age of us puzzles now doesn't care. All it saying is I put something on disk and I saw that you track of where it is.
0:29:17And this file name has this data associated with it.
0:29:20On another date is it called these heroes it could be just random garbage by now
0:29:23but I didn't keep track of that bucket of random garbage that is a certain length.
0:29:27And that's the job of the files as a keep track of the information about where the files are.
0:29:31We wish that it would also say oh and by the way the date is the same as when you wrote it
0:29:35but each of us plus there's nothing a totally silent. Just trust the hardware and says.
0:29:40Yeah that's probably what you wrote.
0:29:41If it is if it isn't nothing we can do about it now you have no way of knowing a lot of people have talked about the.
0:29:48What is a call. There's some tool that I can never remember the name of that i've actually.
0:29:53I think I bought it way back in the day. And I think I tried it once.
0:29:57They will crawl your disk and put little checksums. Like in the direct age directory checksums of all the files.
0:30:02And so in theory down the road.
0:30:04You can then or recheck some them and compare it against the confines of the file at least then you'll know if OK well..
0:30:10At one point I made checksums all the files and directories and it's that X.
0:30:14And now I'm running checksums and it says why.
0:30:16So something must have changed I can tell you what it was and I can't fix it. And I can't even tell you if the state.
0:30:22If you're just going around the checksums was in a known good state it was just merely the state it was
0:30:26when I ran the original checksums but at least something
0:30:28but it does have to crawl your whole disk it does have to read everything go by the data off your disk to make the
0:30:32checksums.
0:30:34The first time anyway and the second time are probably cross file dates
0:30:37or something like that to be more efficient about it but this is. I don't really recommend this tool because it's.
0:30:43It really beats up in your disks the first time you run it.
0:30:45And it's really not the correct solution a correct solution is a file system that does is
0:30:49when the data is on its way in and out. And we don't have that yet so we just you know. Cross our fingers and pray.
0:30:56Well. So what you're recommending is FAT thirty two. For macro us.
0:31:01Now recommending test I can I can remember men the episode of the debug Paga that was on recently where me
0:31:09and several other people talked about file systems and Mavericks among other things
0:31:13and part one of two was posted because we talked like three
0:31:15and a half hours so it was really good I link them to show Note that
0:31:18when those mins worth listening to my favorite thing about it was the two of the people there X.
0:31:23Apple employees
0:31:24and it's a lot better than just people who you know have seen Apple from afar talking about stuff on that show.
0:31:30The rest of us could offer opinions on what we think Apple might or might not be like insider might
0:31:35or might have been doing and have actual X. Apple people.
0:31:38You know give dumbs up or thumbs down on whether that sounds reasonable
0:31:42and I was that was exciting the two Apple people were who was around the Aslan and Danielle jacket.
0:31:48I think I got the names right if I didn't mark a fix and post. Yeah that's right.
0:31:52And then Guy English was like doing Reggie. You know those guys. Well was only one guy. Wow. Moving on.
0:32:03So do you want to talk about X. Box one. Yeah I think we should I think it's important. John. Yeah. X.
0:32:10Box One launched.
0:32:11Very close to the Play Station four Play Station four was making a big deal
0:32:13but they sold a million units north american twenty four hours X.
0:32:16Box One launch and had its own little press release they said it sold more than one million consuls worldwide.
0:32:22For hours.
0:32:23It's not apples to apples comparison but the bottom line is I think both are more or less supply constrained on launch.
0:32:30I think this is. I talked about it last week.
0:32:32That just because the early adopters are rabid for a new console as I imagine they will be doesn't necessarily mean it
0:32:38is console generation is going to do as well as the previous or the one before that.
0:32:41But it definitely means that they're not.
0:32:44It's not you know if they had both tanked on launch it would be a very very bad sign so they're not both hanging on
0:32:49launch. So far so good for the new console generation they're selling out.
0:32:55And this is a little bit more impressive the X.
0:32:57Box One Jesus hundred dollars more than a Playstation three and people did not appear to be price sensitive
0:33:02or the supply was not enough to reveal the price sensitivity of consumers because everyone who wanted a P.S.
0:33:07or An online today. You know. Bought a mall and same thing with X.
0:33:11Box one so we'll revisit this in a couple months to see how the consul's are doing but so far so good.
0:33:17I do wonder how many of the buyers were scalpers. Because it was any new electronics launch the tie profile.
0:33:25Which is pretty much every new game console. And every new i Phone and me the most new tablet and stuff.
0:33:31There's always a pretty large contingent of scalpers who are just buying it to put it on e Bay
0:33:35or to bring it to countries where it isn't available yet to charge a premium. So say so. Opening day.
0:33:41Numbers
0:33:42or eyeopening we can number you should always go into with some skepticism because some of it is going to be that
0:33:46and for different products it's a different. Portion of it but it certainly always substantial.
0:33:53So I think I'll be more interesting to see what happened then you know. Two months five months. You know.
0:33:59Over the next year we'll see and I also still want to see what happens
0:34:03when any of these consuls gets a really good hit game that schools have to the Consul because that.
0:34:09That's really what makes the console market is is. You know must have killer games and. So far there's none.
0:34:15On the new systems on and any of three of them. I'm not I'm not sure the X. Box one.
0:34:19When I was thinking about him are not sure the X. Box One needs the killer app beyond X. Box Live.
0:34:23Because it just gets good versions of all the multi format. Multi-platform games.
0:34:29It's a killer app a sort of that's where your friends list is you're on X. Box Live you've been on X.
0:34:34Box I was sixty you'll be an X. Box live with this. If a multi-platform title comes out. And you're not a P.C. Gamer.
0:34:40You have a choice of can you get a majority of the P S four version X O X one version
0:34:44and in the past generation a lot of people get got the three sixty version just because that's where their friends
0:34:48where an X. Box Live. And sometimes I look a little better the P S four person and this generation X.
0:34:53Box One version may look slightly worse than the P S four version ways that only gaming forum nerds care about most
0:35:00likely. But people may stop to buy the X. Box One version.
0:35:06Because that's where their friends are so the online social networking kind of network effect.
0:35:12Social lock in thing may be more of a factor than any killer game because it's really hard for any platform to get a
0:35:17killer game it's exclusive to it these days because the big titles are so big that Microsoft
0:35:23or Sony would have to pay I can you imagine Microsoft
0:35:25or Sonny ever paying enough money to rock star to make the next G.T.A. Of schools will be on the console there's not.
0:35:30I don't think they have enough money to do that because they make so much more money by putting it out everywhere that.
0:35:35Rockstar says well for we're going to forego P.C. And P.S.
0:35:38For Microsoft you're going to have to pay us so much money you're ready for that
0:35:42and the answer is No they're not so I don't know it's kind of like big movie studios making a movie
0:35:47or two hundred million dollars. And then only showing in a certain brand of movie theaters no.
0:35:51No change in movie theaters going to for do that it's not quite the same but I would love to see that
0:35:56and of course this first party games like Halo and stuff like that
0:35:58but historically it's been difficult for those games to match up with the with the cumulative massive sales machine
0:36:06that is the popular franchises that are multi-platform like Call of Duty and. When he caught.
0:36:13Destiny's coming out soon and went after auto and all those things. Sports. Yeah. It's all the A game. You know.
0:36:21The men franchise stuff like that you know you know so I'm not a gamer anymore I don't see any I rarely play games on
0:36:28my i Phone I have a we're Aaron and I have a lead that hasn't been plugged in. For months now.
0:36:35And I was at my for we were at my friend. Phil's house over the weekend and he has an X. Box one and.
0:36:42I didn't play any games although I saw him play Need for Speed which looked extraordinarily boring but it was pretty.
0:36:51But we did use it because he has his T.V. Going through it and I forget the technical term for that the basically the X.
0:36:56Box is eating the T.V. Signal. And I are blasting to his direct T.V.
0:37:00Receiver in order to change channels and so on and so forth. I believe it's called Web T.V.
0:37:05For second I think you're serious. Anyway. So the point being that with the Audi oaken trolls you know X. Box.
0:37:13Player Geo turn to tune to Comedy Central revenues I'm probably getting that wrong.
0:37:17That was just like Siri in that when it worked. It was the work of magic.
0:37:23But when it didn't work which was I would say two thirds of the time. It was infuriating. But I can see where the X.
0:37:31Box One is a very nifty in different take on what the next iteration of television might be in that it's all voice
0:37:39controlled.
0:37:40I'd never saw anything gesture based on even know if there's a gesture based system
0:37:43but it's all force controlled you can put the T.V.
0:37:46On one side of the screen put something else in the other side of the screen like a video game
0:37:50or whatever it was very very cool. It. Nothing about it made me want to get one.
0:37:55But I could see why it would be appealing and I can see if. If a person who like to play games.
0:38:00Wanted something more than just a game console I could absolutely see how this would be very very appealing.
0:38:05I wonder how much of it is you know Microsoft is really making a very clear bet here. They're betting on Convergence.
0:38:13And of course. Historically in our energy we had things like Web T.V. and and Various attempts that.
0:38:18Since around the T.V.
0:38:19Set and trying to you know motion to two distinct devices the connected T.V.'s together into one and.
0:38:26Usually those a failed or these been mediocre at best. Microsoft bet here is. They think that having your T.V.
0:38:35Controlled by your game console is a really big deal at the game console is more than just a game console it's like a
0:38:40home media. T.V. Activity consul. Whereas you know Sony is gone for more than the pure gaming so is intending really.
0:38:46The pure gaming system that's separate and dedicated as as John's discussed a lot.
0:38:52But the question is I think whether Microsoft is right like how how many people want to merge those two experiences.
0:38:59I would actually guess it's a low number. Relative to everyone who buys X.
0:39:03Boxes I would say the portion of them the want to also control their T.V.
0:39:07Through it and have those experiences be very merged together.
0:39:10I wouldn't guess it's very high but I could be very wrong about that.
0:39:14I think there's a there's a little bit of a potential we effect here in that one of the reason is that we look at those
0:39:19graphs of console sales of the weasel line shot up like a rocket with such an incredible slope is because we had a.
0:39:28I don't want to call the novelty factor but it's more or less what it is. And that people are curious.
0:39:32What would it be like to play games I was going a little remote around.
0:39:36Because it was an experience that people hadn't done. And people bought it.
0:39:39Just because like they didn't necessarily even think it was going to be good
0:39:43but they just said well this is a new thing. And I know some people have tried it and I'm not one of those people.
0:39:48I need to get one of those. So I can try to see what this is like good or bad. And the X.
0:39:53Box One like three sixty had connect right but it was an add on
0:39:56and add ons have notoriously bad sell through rates for Consols like of all the X.
0:40:00Box three sixty so what percentage of those people bought connect that's very low. All of the X.
0:40:05Box ones come with the connect to
0:40:07and Microsoft was adamant about that is one of the many reasons that their console is one hundred dollars more than
0:40:11Sony's.
0:40:12And they're taking the hit they said look we're going to make them all come with that and that means every single X.
0:40:16Box One has the sort of we effect of people wondering. I wonder what would be like to talk to my T.V.
0:40:22or To wave my hands around like a maniac and try to make menus go.
0:40:25Maybe those same people think it's going to be stupid and bad.
0:40:28Or maybe they tried their friends connect one and didn't like it but they're like.
0:40:31But this one is better and like there's just that curiosity about it.
0:40:36And so that that factor alone no matter how it ends up being even of ends up being a total disaster no never use it
0:40:41anymore they just use it to play games like it a three sixty. Just the fact that it gets people in the door.
0:40:46Curious about it I think is a really big strength for Microsoft. In this generation.
0:40:51Because they all come with CONNECT. And as for actually using it. I've heard mostly reports that trying to use the X.
0:40:58Box want to watch television like to control your television is not a good experience for the same reason that.
0:41:02Like the television market is littered with the bodies of of companies that have tried to put a box of burning a T.V.
0:41:08and Let you control your T.V.
0:41:09With it it is just really hard
0:41:11and complicated because of our terrible is in the US are terrible cable television system with non-standardized all the
0:41:16stuff and people are thing like. It's better to use like my cable boxes guide the new easy to use the X.
0:41:21Box guy that's pretty damning when you have a five hundred dollars box. That your tax your T.V.
0:41:25and It's better just to your cable box also everyone hates their cable box God because they're all terrible.
0:41:30Right and they're saying look the excise on was worse but. But I think like even if the excise one.
0:41:35If it gets people to buy it for the novelty factor
0:41:37and then they just use it like a three sixty that's still a win for Microsoft because using it like a three sixty means
0:41:42using X. Box Live. What when you're watching T.V.
0:41:45All the quickly switch over to a game and play it or switch back to T.V.
0:41:48when People are in the lobby and stuff like that even that functionality which is not that big a deal.
0:41:52That's something that Sony can't match because they don't have H.D. Myin. Right so I don't think the X.
0:41:58Box One has to fill all the magical Minority Report. Voice recognition Syria AI dreams.
0:42:03It just has to do one or two things that the P S four can't. And basically be an updated three sixty with Kinect open.
0:42:11And maybe they will still not be any decent games that any game really cares about that use connect but we'll see.
0:42:17This episode.
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0:44:55I don't lower down the ME IN THAT NO to the room I want to hoist up your car complaints. No Apple buys Prime Sense.
0:45:05There's your way that story. I didn't What's this about Prime Sense is the company that originally made the sensors.
0:45:12For the connect the original connect. Was interesting. So quick sort of like.
0:45:16I might have got that slightly wrong but basically used to it looks like company but yeah I've all.
0:45:21You know there's a reason for this what this company does makes connect like sensors
0:45:24and they were I think they were involved in the development of the original connect if not to connect to
0:45:29and that is interesting because Apple tends not to buy companies frivolously unless they're color.
0:45:37And that was a great domain name. Cheese they buy call over the nobody ever packs. Fine. You would imagine though.
0:45:45Like it's like when they bought P.A.
0:45:47Semi is that they bought this company because they have an interest in some kind of sensor stuff
0:45:51and I think everyone was thinking. OK Well Microsoft on the X. Box One of the T.V.
0:45:55Integration Apple still has yet to make whatever we think they're crazy movies are going to be in the T.V.
0:45:59World of the little black talk.
0:46:01Because the of Jobs said in his book that always correct the problem
0:46:04and we haven't seen anything that seems to have to match up with that.
0:46:07So we're still waiting for the other shoe to drop on T.V. and Then they buy the sensor maker.
0:46:11And on the one hand it's like way too late for them to be buying the sensor maker ever expect them to have a product
0:46:15next year that involves a sensor all. If you think of how long it took for us to see clear fruits of the P S M E.
0:46:20Acquisition. But on the other hand.
0:46:23It also implies that they think that sensor related things are important enough for them to buy a company that probably
0:46:30has patents but also expertise in the technology it so it's beyond the phase where they're like let's just go.
0:46:35To connect and hook it up to some you know.
0:46:37Big Box of wires
0:46:38and see if it's in a useful thing to have it seems like they're into the phase where they're getting serious about this
0:46:42and the question is what do they do with this technology and I guess that I think everyone assumes that it's T.V.
0:46:48Related but I think it could just as easily be I wish device related as an i Pad and i Phones.
0:46:54Because I think about all the crazy stuff that Samsung does with their Galaxy phones are the stupid things that track
0:46:59your eyes and like that you don't have to touch a screen how terrible that works. And I think. All right.
0:47:04That's terrible. But what if there was a way to do some tiny subset of that. Better.
0:47:09You know to an Apple level of quality where they're happy with happy with making this part of the I was device
0:47:14experience.
0:47:15What can you do with the ability for your i Pad
0:47:18or i Phone to sense more about you than just where your fingers touching in the orientation acceleration.
0:47:25So I think I would give it a fifty fifty chance that the technology involved.
0:47:29Coming with expertise in technology and everything coming from this company. Bush open and I was devised.
0:47:35Just as likely I think as it showing up in a T.V. Like device.
0:47:37And I think about an interview like that I don't I don't know what they would do with it I would imagine they could do
0:47:42something small and simple and like the proximity sensor but more sophisticated using the camera.
0:47:48and more proximity sensors to be more intelligent about something using eyelets that I thought are not over his T.V.
0:47:54What are we going to be standing up in front of a wave in our hands like Graham from an X. Box one. I don't know.
0:47:58I wonder if we could even be used in any way to to support the that camera you know maybe for.
0:48:05For looking at the scene in a way similar to how fate detect estimate work.
0:48:09And I feel are is maybe prodding better focus performance or a more accurate.
0:48:13Depth map of what's going on in the scene. Maybe someone who knows.
0:48:16Yeah I was going to interest like if you look at the connect it was impressive technology like it.
0:48:21I don't know if a double the resolution of the connect one or quadruple that
0:48:23but it is way better like it I think it can sense fingers now. Whereas the connect one can barely sense hand so.
0:48:30The technology has come a long way and obviously you can't fit something like connect size into an I O. S.
0:48:36Device although you couldn't elect a little T.V. Bar type thing but there's surely something you can do.
0:48:41If you can get. I are color image edge a Texan and depth map from these multi sensor things.
0:48:49Surely there's something interesting you can do about that even if it's only just like kind of having having the phone
0:48:54have more awareness of what the person who's using it is doing.
0:48:57Even if you never used to control the phone or whatever just so the phone kind of knows.
0:49:01They're staring at me they're not I'm in a pocket I'm not I'm being held up to a head I'm not like just those simple
0:49:07things could make the phone experience better without ever actually exposing a feature. To the user and for the T.V.
0:49:12Thing again I have no idea who is known as any idea what the hell they're doing on T.V..
0:49:16but It is intriguing to say the least. It might be only one who doesn't really care what the doing on T.V..
0:49:22I think you are the only one. Just think like. I don't like the Apple T.V.
0:49:27I would love for the software on to be more reliable
0:49:30and for the service that backs at the entire i Tunes store for that to be more reliable and work more.
0:49:36But the actual like Apple T.V. Box and software experience. I think. Satisfies my needs. For what I want out of a T.V.
0:49:47Connected box like and I know. I know everyone wants.
0:49:50You know more channels and more availability and live shows and everything else
0:49:53and that's that's more an issue of content deals that anything else
0:49:57and that's you know that's probably going to be held a command. No matter what they do with the hardware.
0:50:01But like I just I'm fine with the T.V. As it is I have Netflix and everything else Netflix.
0:50:07You know I have Netflix on there and I have itunes bought stuff.
0:50:10And that's about all I really need like what I'm looking to do you have minimal T.V.
0:50:15Need to do is if you're if you're more like the average American who consume some portion of sports programming some
0:50:20portion of local television and also some portion of network and cable.
0:50:23The experience is terrible because all those things are spread out in ten different places I mean even you would just
0:50:28for the two places like Oh isn't that like let me check Oh is that an apple do it do you let me check even just that is
0:50:33bad but imagine if you multiply that out by like three or four or five places to check
0:50:37and then you had way more content some of which is not available online
0:50:41and some of which you had to see like you only way you could get it was it was broadcast to you
0:50:46and it would be on itunes later
0:50:47and maybe you don't want to wait a week because then the things really spoiled for you like.
0:50:51If you consume more television from more sources it gets worse and worse
0:50:55and worse than ever Mrs waiting for something to clarify this in the same way that that you know Apple clarified using
0:51:00your music learn Granted it's like you to have music but hey that was filed labels by big labels or whatever in the US.
0:51:07You can just go to i Tunes buying is going to go to seven different places
0:51:10and synthesize some sort of system that have a D.V.R. To catch this and I have Netflix and I have Apple T.V.
0:51:15and Then I have Amazon Instant Video and I have these devices and.
0:51:18I can watch my Tivo and i Pad but I also watch netflix and i Pad but I can't watch Apple T.V.
0:51:23and I Pad but I can watch drugs in the i Tunes store and as. It's television continues to be a giant mess again..
0:51:29I'm speaking only about the US I don't know what it's like in the rest the world so the more T.V.
0:51:33You consume in the more you use it the worse it is maybe you're still limping along with Apple T.V.
0:51:38and That flex and that satisfies you but I think you're in the minority in terms of your television consumption habits.
0:51:43Well sure but how many of those problems are really software and content deal problems or even.
0:51:50Not even like us off a limitation more of a software choice that was made.
0:51:54So you know it's also software choices and content deals. Versus hardware. And you know. Interface problems like..
0:52:01If they did some kind of big connect like think the Apple T.V.
0:52:05Then we could we have our arms around to navigate the same small menu full of limited choices
0:52:10and expensive options like that's. It's. That's not going to so that's not going to change anything.
0:52:14We're not just looking for hardware software solution.
0:52:17We're assuming a meeting with i Tunes a hardware software solution i Pod i Tunes in the store with everything was
0:52:21Harbor it was software it was content deals that's what we're looking for is something to save us all from everything
0:52:26and if you just want to look on the hardware
0:52:27and software side you can look at the i Phone as an example where all they had in the beginning.
0:52:32Was hardware and software. But the hardware and software was so amazing that it was used as a lever to try to do.
0:52:38I mean it didn't.
0:52:39Revolutionize the carrier industry but it gave the handset maker more leverage than they ever had before
0:52:44and it allowed us to have cell phones not crapped up with the stupid carrier ad ware and crap like that on it.
0:52:50That wasn't a big change. It was an improvement. And so I think even just alone but with with.
0:52:56You know totally adversarial evil things like carriers.
0:52:59Apple is still just through the power of it's amazing hardware
0:53:01and software the power of the consumer that wanted it affects some small change in the industry.
0:53:07Again at least in the US. For the better. So I would take that into television world.
0:53:11If that Apple can't do any content deals
0:53:12and everyone hates them just make some amazing device that everybody wants to make television.
0:53:16Better for the people who are using it and use that as a lever to say oh well if your kid.
0:53:20If you know Time Warner Cable doesn't want to be part of our thing.
0:53:23Than all the people who want our magic dance in front of the T.V. Device.
0:53:27Are going to be pissed time order and are going to change carriers like like people were going to A.T.M.
0:53:30To you from Verizon or whatever because it was the only place that had the i Phone. Again there is a long shots.
0:53:38Fans going to happen but something. You can see part of that today though.
0:53:42When like whenever there's some kind of dispute between. One of the networks. And one of the big cable companies.
0:53:47And the networks pulled pull themselves off the cable channel for like two weeks and.
0:53:51The idea is you know that that that the networks hoping the cable company will say. You know.
0:53:56Oh come back to us go all of our customers are angry at us and. You know usually they. They just kind of quietly.
0:54:03Figure something out and nothing really changes in the end. And you know people.
0:54:07People often look at I think we're seeing a lot more recently from from smart. Analyst type people.
0:54:14You can look at the P.C. Market. In the ninety's. And so many things that we consider like common.
0:54:22Be Hey viewer or the way things work. Is based on the windows and mac. Divide in the ninety's.
0:54:29And as time is going on the smart analysts are starting look this
0:54:33and say actually that seems more like a complicated fluke. Than the way things actually work you know.
0:54:40Open doesn't always win whatever that means. You know.
0:54:44Hardware being multi vendor and software running all of it versus the unified vertical integration.
0:54:51You know doesn't always work or not work. There's you know there's all these.
0:54:56All this like wisdom that's been based on how this one instance of something worked. One time in the industry.
0:55:01What in fact it's much more complicated than that and it doesn't always work that way.
0:55:04I think the way i Tunes came about in the an ad whose music store.
0:55:09I think that's one of those things to where that was a very special time in history that we're not in a time like that
0:55:15anymore with any other medium or any other situation or industry. That was a one time thing.
0:55:21And I don't think that anybody Apple or otherwise. Is going to be able to reproduce that in a new medium.
0:55:27Not the severity.
0:55:29But I think the same thing could happen over a much longer time like there was like a big room with I turned maybe I
0:55:35would say the breadth of though that's the breadth is where it's going to really suffer like well that's what I'm
0:55:40saying like a star of small and what I'm thinking about there is not so much Apple doing it. But Netflix.
0:55:44Finding its own shows today overnight. Obviate the need for the networks and H.B.O. No they didn't.
0:55:49But you get one or two shows the people I like.
0:55:52And it's like OK you didn't do a big bang you didn't like that
0:55:54but suddenly a tiny tiny sliver of the power in the content distribution. World.
0:56:00Went over to Netflix the thing that has no allegiance to any kind of you know carrier anything like that they got to
0:56:05show so what. So if. But if they do that every year for the next fifteen twenty years.
0:56:10You can foresee a scenario where either Netflix or a similar player polls power away from the cable companies.
0:56:16And the carriers and you know all those stuff.
0:56:19In till most
0:56:21or a majority of the shows that people want to watch are being funded in a way that has no connection to any cable
0:56:26provider or any television network.
0:56:28That would be an example of an i Tunes like changes that are happening in three years. Happening in fifteen or twenty.
0:56:34Yeah you know I was thinking about it. Well yes we're talking and.
0:56:37I'm not so sure that you're right Marco that the i Tunes kind of phenomenon couldn't be repeated what what I was
0:56:44thinking about was if you think about what made i Tunes as paired with the i Pod so magical is to me it's a couple of
0:56:52things it's acquiring something it's acquiring media and then consuming it
0:56:57and so i Tunes allows you to acquire individual songs which is very rare at the time I mean you know they were singles
0:57:03but it was weird and clunky.
0:57:05And you could acquire these songs without leaving your house which was really awesome and new and then you could
0:57:10when you decide decided to leave your house you could consume them on this magical new hardware device.
0:57:15And you guys made allusions to this earlier but a theoretical Apple T.V.
0:57:20Where you can acquire content very easily in the continent thinking of is sports content
0:57:26and I know that you can Marco's eyes just glaze over but for most Americans and I would argue most of the world.
0:57:33The sports are big deal and a lot of people pointed out in the chat that the N.F.L.
0:57:38Has That's the national American Football League. The Continental It's well you know I mean.
0:57:43So they haven't a clue has an exclusive deal with Directv which is a satellite provider. Here in the United States.
0:57:49And that runs out I think at the end of the season or if not the end of the season very very soon
0:57:54and a lot of people are calling on Apple does just throw money at this problem and get that exclusive deal
0:57:59and what that exclusive deal brings is if you're if your DIRECTV customer. You can get what's called N.F.L.
0:58:04Sunday ticket because all the games are played on Sundays most them anyway.
0:58:07And you can watch any game you want it when it's aired live.
0:58:11And so for me as an example I happen to be a fan of The New York Giants I live.
0:58:21I only ever get Giants games if it just so happens that read that Redskins
0:58:25or any of the other local franchises aren't playing at that time. So imagine a situation where the N.F.L.
0:58:34and Apple reach an exclusive deal scenario you can get the content you want.
0:58:39Which is the acquire piece because you can watch any game you want and the M.O.B.O.
0:58:43Already does this Major League Baseball does this the N.B.A. Believe already does this or in I think the N.H.L.
0:58:48Does I'm probably getting some of that wrong but whatever you get the idea. Well magine a combination of N.F.L..
0:58:52NASCAR and F one. All of them. Easily available on the Apple T.V. Both live and replay and.
0:59:01All you need to do is either pay off a little bit or just buy the darn device transporter style.
0:59:06And then on top of that Apple has this really slick you I well I like the line the Apple T.V.
0:59:11Maybe you don't
0:59:12but it's certainly a lot better than most set top boxes like my for Hyson box looks like crap compared to the Apple.
0:59:17T.V.
0:59:18So now you've got the content or you can acquire the content and now you can consume the content in a nice
0:59:22and easy way and I see some not direct parallels with with i Tunes and the i Pod
0:59:28but certainly some parallels nevertheless.
0:59:30I don't know that sports is enough to really get them over the proverbial hump.
0:59:34But I think it could be a really really interesting way to attack attack traditional T.V.
0:59:41With without having to go after movies and T.V. Shows in the traditional sense. And to reinforce Marcus point. The.
0:59:48Dave big difference here is that the players know the players saw what happened to be using.
0:59:52And so everybody is super paranoid about putting too many eggs in one basket. So if Apple.
0:59:58By some miracle decided to spend. The billions of dollars it would take to get the N.F.L. To that degree.
1:00:03Any other sports franchise
1:00:04or be like we sure as hell can't go that well because then they would have two sports franchises
1:00:08and look what happened in music. If we like. They all had.
1:00:11It's not collusion but they all kind of see what each other are doing.
1:00:14And they're all kind of trying to protect their turf
1:00:17and spread their bets like like just like the music labels as soon as Amazon became vice.
1:00:21All the music of us like we got to go over there
1:00:23and just give Amazon everything because we cannot have Apple have all this power is like be the sole one
1:00:27and only awesome digital music distribution network. So all of the non-music guys saw what happened in music.
1:00:34And that's why it's so hard to do anything with T.V.
1:00:36Because they're not going to make that same mistake and that's why I think it has to be a much longer period.
1:00:42And probably like the way it's going to happen is the power that's in the hands of the networks.
1:00:48And the cable companies now.
1:00:50Will shift to a set of companies that look more like Netflix if they're not necessarily Netflix.
1:00:54I don't think Apple is going to be in the business of generating content so far they haven't shown that they're willing
1:00:59to for example. Put up a couple hundred million dollars to make a new T.V.
1:01:02Show so all Apple can do is make deals with somebody and I would imagine..
1:01:06Dealing with Netflix is way easier than dealing with N.B.C. or The N.F.L. And so maybe this insanity there.
1:01:11That being said though. I think you're right that. Once one sports franchise gave exclusivity to the Apple T.V..
1:01:19or To Apple in general I think that would give pause to the others however if that one was the N.F.L.
1:01:27I think that's enough. Like even. I think enough people and obviously the rest of the world.
1:01:32Couldn't possibly care less but in the US you know and this isn't doesn't mean the problems with T.V..
1:01:38Is that it's very regional. In the US If you get the N.F.L.
1:01:44You're going to get a craft ton of people buying Apple T.V.'s.
1:01:48And that's really what they want they you know what they want out of this kind of effort.
1:01:52Would be tons and tons and tons of people buying the Apple T.V.
1:01:56and Get having a really good reason to use it frequently and. If you get the N.F.L. Exclusive on there.
1:02:02You're going to get that you're going to get a lot of that. And. You know.
1:02:07People are not going to give up their cable subscription. They're still going to have cable. So the.
1:02:12So not getting the other sports networks wouldn't matter as much this would basically be like like an exclusive console
1:02:18game like this would be a killer app for the Apple T.V. For a very large number of people in this country. You know.
1:02:25Every time we talk about T.V.
1:02:26It's just depressing because there are so many so many entrenched interests
1:02:30and then we always tend to keep coming back to the realization and this is just the U.S.
1:02:34We're talking about an average is a global company and it cares about worldwide stuff
1:02:38and you can kind of see how Apple in their own means would be like.
1:02:41Look at all this crap and we're only still talking about the U.S. Forget about it let's just you know whatever.
1:02:46Like that's why I think I like the delegate that let's let Netflix.
1:02:49Fight it out me that died trying
1:02:51or figure out something to an even net like this I think mostly US centric of well like I think the other countries
1:02:57have better ways to get the content they want over more modern digital systems than we do
1:03:02and maybe they still have the same monopoly problems that we do
1:03:04but like I think people can see the soccer games that they want to see through some interesting digital thing that's
1:03:12near them. Whereas in the U.S.
1:03:14Like the local television franchise is still such a stranglehold and like with the black at the local blackouts
1:03:19and stuff like that of this is just perverse. So it's depressing.
1:03:23But I'm still like to see Apple do something even if they do something and it flops like.
1:03:27You know it first you know if you see succeed keep trying to go to the Apple T.V.
1:03:31The first couple aren't that great the little black pluck is pretty darn good so if there's more to come in that vein
1:03:36and they're buying this connect like sensor company. Let's see what you've got right.
1:03:41I do think you're right though that that I can't I can't really see Apple.
1:03:44Devoting a massive chunk of money on a massive division of their of their product line.
1:03:50And therefore their attention to something that only works in the U.S. or Will only succeed in the U.S. That.
1:03:56That's not like Tim Cook. That's for sure. Well but what if you did something like the N.F.L.
1:04:02but It but it's a plea Kabul to the rest of the world like F one for example or sock. Or perhaps.
1:04:07Well the apple thousand move is away now our television is also now platform. And you crazy.
1:04:13After helpers in every region of the country.
1:04:15You sort out how to help get your stuff like out of like the M L B Yeah you know they made an app platform
1:04:21and i OS devices they didn't do a deal with Major League Baseball they made an applet form.
1:04:24And then and will be made the app.
1:04:26And then figured out it's crazy way that you're going to pay for it or whatever
1:04:29but like that that's an opportunity for people not as an apple move because a platform is global
1:04:33and then individual applications are local That is true.
1:04:38We want to move on to the sweet jobs that are available penny arcade.
1:04:44I don't know that there's that much more to say about this I kind of a middle over Twitter all morning about it
1:04:49and wrote The Big Book People haven't read your blog or read your Twitter so you have to reiterate and summarize here.
1:04:56And as someone who works for the man. Marco you know quite a bit about these sorts of issues and.
1:05:04I used to work for various men. Do you remember that. It was launched. I think so.
1:05:13So Penny Arcade put up his job listing for one person who was responsible for basically developing
1:05:22and running all the websites and servers. And all their in-house.
1:05:27Tools like various like him and Tory trackers when they sell good stuff like that.
1:05:31Managing the conference site stuff like that and also doing all of their local I.T. For their workers and their office.
1:05:39And in exchange for all of this. They will force you to be a workaholic.
1:05:44That they they kind of flippantly glorify how they how you won't have any kind of free time this will be the work you
1:05:53to the bone.
1:05:54And your and you'll like it and they'll make up for it by paying you a sub par salary
1:06:01and giving you some kind of nice perks. In the office like I don't know like nice chairs and snacks. Whatever.
1:06:09You know something i would cost a lot less than than a good salary. And the whole the whole posting has this.
1:06:16This arrogant attitude of like. This is really a terrible job and you're going to love it and. Now.
1:06:24Really quickly genuine question do they. You're assuming that the salaries. Crummy right now they say in the ad.
1:06:31They say they say were we recognize that we're going to play I don't know the exact words
1:06:35but they say that we were going to pay.
1:06:38Maybe below market because we're not our money oriented company or something like that and we run lean.
1:06:44I mean the ad is honest in the penny arcade style of honesty. Where they have you ever seen a job ad before they say.
1:06:51Work life balance. Forget it. Like that's basically what this says. Some you know some place.
1:06:56Everybody always says oh we have great work late to live the places that don't have great work like the I still say in
1:07:01the job at all we're great about work like balance and fact. If they talk a lot about work life balance.
1:07:06Too much in the ad that's also a warning sign.
1:07:08But this one they come right out and say you know you're not really going to have a good work life balance.
1:07:13Work will be your life that's the type of person we're looking for that's the type of job. Says Yeah.
1:07:17I don't know the whole thing just kind of rub me the wrong way like it. It just basically.
1:07:23My problem with it you know there's a lot of terrible employers out there. And the tech industry is no exception.
1:07:29My problem with it is a penny arcade is very high profile and.
1:07:33It's damaging to people when they expect that this is the norm that.
1:07:37That they should totally given to them to their job and have no personal life
1:07:42and if this is what's normally expected of them in this industry and. Yeah that's true for a lot of employers.
1:07:48That doesn't make it good and.
1:07:50That doesn't mean there's not also a lot of great places to work that actually respect people
1:07:54and respect people's health and respect people's lives and
1:07:58and want people to stay there for more than a couple years you know like I reading reading the form posting from the
1:08:04guy who has this job now kind of.
1:08:07And he kind of said you know this is you know like I chose this and therefore you know. Get on my life kind of thing.
1:08:13But it just kind of confirms what.
1:08:16What we think they mean by the job posting it just kind of confirms that where it's a.
1:08:21It's constant work you're on call twenty four seven.
1:08:24He says he can't go on vacation anywhere where he's not reachable by cell phone
1:08:29and can't get a data connection to like logon to fix a server if it's down. He sleeps with a laptop next of the bed.
1:08:35Right. I mean and this is. I did a lot of this for Tumblr because Which is why I'm sensitive to it. This is basically.
1:08:41This was my job at Tumblr for the first four years. The difference was I was paid very well and I got a lot of stock.
1:08:48And that I think was fair like I was. I was doing the work of a co-founder and I was paid. Like a co-founder and.
1:08:59That's very very different than something like this which is like they're already have something like it was like
1:09:06twenty employees somebody said they're there to have a lot of employees. They they run a very popular Web site.
1:09:12That gets a that gets a lot of traffic.
1:09:14They were actually run multiple websites they get lots of traffic there's obviously you know.
1:09:20They could have two people doing this.
1:09:22They don't need to have one person doing all this is paid very badly or they could have one. Well paid person.
1:09:27And they're choosing not to because they simply don't need to because they're they're so popular that enough people
1:09:34will apply that they can get somebody who will do it from was nothing
1:09:37and that's all the other the other thing they're offering is you get to be an employee of Penny Arcade
1:09:41and like that the work life balance so they say doesn't exist it's because they kind of have this big work family thing
1:09:46going where it.
1:09:48The people who work there seem to be happy about the idea that you're you the people you work with are like your family.
1:09:56And the stuff that you would get in a normal home life.
1:09:59You can get more of it work
1:10:01and I think some of the things in this form that says I call some people do leave it a fiver or whatever and. Like.
1:10:06That's But that's the trade off though is that you are. You may not be getting high pay or something but you get.
1:10:14Presumably to work in an environment that's much more fun than just working for some faceless corporation because you
1:10:20really like Penny Arcade because you think you'll have fun with the people there
1:10:22and a lot of their interview process if you look at their passing of years is about trying to find someone who not only
1:10:28can do the job but also. Fitzsimmons although the people because they're there.
1:10:32Most kind of like interviewing a new friend.
1:10:34We're like OK so this person did the job but we're only going to hire them.
1:10:37If we would like to hang out with this person because we know that's kind of our work environment we're all going to be
1:10:42hanging out together and doing stuff
1:10:44and that sounds a lot like kind of a startup type environment with a bunch of friends who start a company
1:10:50and like Marco said that's all well and good.
1:10:52But I know I personally would never in a million years want to do this job.
1:10:59If I was not also going to benefit from the fruits of my labor like if you are in a startup
1:11:03and you are an early employing you work like this because that's how everybody and starts work
1:11:07but all do this they all do fifty jobs overcritical as ours they all don't get paid a lot because not a lot of money
1:11:11and you have to spend a venture capital and like servers and acquiring new customers and stuff.
1:11:16But the upside is that if you make it.
1:11:18You share in the in the victory like Margo Sheridan you know when somebody got tumblr stock and
1:11:23when they sold the Ahuja he shared in that right. He didn't do all that work. And then today.
1:11:28You know just quickly with nothing right. So if you're in this job and no.
1:11:33I'm basically no one should work of this hard no matter how young you are no matter how awesome the job is no one
1:11:38should sacrifice the other parts their life this degree if they don't share in it and that I think.
1:11:42To me personally the reason I wouldn't take this job
1:11:45and the reason I would recommend would not recommend anyone else take this job is that.
1:11:49It seems to me it's so hard to tell this is a privately held company
1:11:52but it seems to me that some people are benefiting greatly from.
1:11:56From what appears to be the success of Penny Arcade and those people are. The founders of the company like that too.
1:12:01You know Mike and Jerry. And Robert are are benefitting great.
1:12:06From it financially it seems like again we don't know we can't tell they've talked a little bit
1:12:10but it seems like they're making a lot. The rest of the people in the company.
1:12:13It doesn't seem like are benefiting as greatly and.
1:12:17If you're going to have a startup type environment where you're asking this of all the people involved.
1:12:21And the people are willing to do it in their happy.
1:12:23I feel like they should be sharing in the success of the company because this is not like a new star of They've been
1:12:28around for years. And this team of people.
1:12:31Has made a very successful enterprise I feel like maybe they all share equally but that whole idea that.
1:12:36Seven people work their butts off and three people get rich. Drives me insane. Right.
1:12:41If you get I mean most of the time nobody gets rich. Sunday work their butts off and everyone goes home set right.
1:12:47But in the cases where seven people work their butts off. Three people shouldn't get rich.
1:12:51Seven people to get rich maybe three who get richer. But that's what I feel like should happen. And I can't.
1:12:56From what I can tell in the outside in seem like that's happening.
1:12:58And again I'm I'm friendly as well as why I would not take a job and want to recommend someone didn't take it
1:13:03but I think the much more interesting question is Is this a bad thing to do.
1:13:08If everybody who works at Penny Arcade is happy with their job.
1:13:12So I think you guys are judging this from a very similar angle to the way I judge it however it is not the only angle.
1:13:20And the reason I say that is because my first job straight out of school was that this company that made slot machines.
1:13:28And they the group Group of it was all guys at the time a group of guys that worked there were all. Ex-pats from E.A.
1:13:39Who had bought up the company that they had all sort of kind of co-founded it was a game company called Kess My based
1:13:46out of Charlottesville Virginia. And by pure happenstance. A large majority of these.
1:13:52These guys either didn't have children or didn't have any immediate family so no wives and no kids.
1:14:00And so especially a couple of the guys there like my boss when I first got there who I adore.
1:14:07He he didn't happen to have a wife and didn't happen to have any kids and so because of that.
1:14:12He just ended up working on a lot. And he put on this. Exteriors shell of.
1:14:19I don't you know I've this job is a pain the but but it's a job in this is what I do. But I think.
1:14:25If you allowed me to armchair be an arch armchair psychiatrist.
1:14:30I think he worked a lot partially because it was the most in interest name in an interesting but it was.
1:14:35It was a really good way to occupy his time. And so I invision Penny Arcade in a similar way.
1:14:41Not to say that these people don't have kids they don't have to there they don't have families
1:14:44but there are people that really do just love working a lot and my boss with this place worked.
1:14:50Absurd hours like eighty or hundred hours a week.
1:14:53But nobody was really telling him to or at least I didn't think so anyway.
1:14:57He just enjoyed doing work and he worked six days a week nobody else did but he always did and.
1:15:04And I'm not trying to say that he didn't have other things in his life I'm not trying to say that he necessarily
1:15:09enjoyed every moment of it. But in certain circumstances.
1:15:12There are people that really do like you guys recently
1:15:15and want to have want to have a work experience that kind of is their lives. Is that me. Heck now.
1:15:22I think I speak three thousand saying that it's certainly not you guys either.
1:15:26But for some people that is and if you if you put yourself in that mindset.
1:15:29How would you write a job posting to be honest I'd write a kind of like this.
1:15:34But see the thing is like Robert who is that person.
1:15:37He by his own admission has sacrificed many other parts of his life to be successful in business he is the reason Penny
1:15:43Arcade exists in the form it does now. He sacrificed his life to make this amazing company he deserves.
1:15:50You know all the credit for that the two artists of course are the spark of this entire thing nothing exists without
1:15:56them. So clearly those three. You know. Deserve more than anybody else.
1:16:01But like for Robert that was his choice he came up he said I'm disability I'm going to leave.
1:16:07I'm going to make this great thing. And I'm.
1:16:09I understand the sacrifices involved for it for the two other guys they have wives
1:16:12and kids in my impression is yes they work hard and everything yes there are many demands on their time and so on
1:16:16and so forth. But it seems like their work life balance isn't all that bad.
1:16:20I mean it's again it's so hard to tell what happens then
1:16:22and that's why I was getting back to like one of all their employees are happy.
1:16:26And people talk about like this job burns people out pretty OK it's been around fifteen years in this job has had two
1:16:30people in it. So like you know. Seven a half years each.
1:16:33It's obviously not a machine that burns through people or whatever not seven and a half years each.
1:16:38The first one was there for like eight years or longer even the the guy who's that who's quitting now.
1:16:44Only been there for like two years.
1:16:45Well either way it's like two people in the position for over the fifteen your life of the company is not a mill where
1:16:51they bring in people neighbor on the mound bring in people and bring them out. But it has.
1:16:54It has scaled up over that time as Penny Arcade asking up the job has scaled up so I like it.
1:16:59I think it says something that. That you know they had a guy there for a long time he'd left.
1:17:04And you know he got really big he left a new guy came in he did the job.
1:17:09And and is quitting after only two years concedes more money.
1:17:13But like giving back to same point and I'm not but I'm not implying an answer here.
1:17:16Like what my real question is like it. If all their employees are happy.
1:17:21Is the company still mean for making a job like this. Right I'm saying the same thing if all the employees.
1:17:26Enjoy hanging out with the other employees a lot and enjoy working on a lot which is a big a big assumption.
1:17:33But if that's the case like if I was one of those people like my boss at my first job.
1:17:38And I wanted to write a very forthcoming an honest job posting.
1:17:43It would probably look a lot like this doesn't make it right not necessarily but in whatever. Apply for it hack now.
1:17:49But it would look a lot like that so like I think my. My opinion on whether this is inherently a bad job posting.
1:17:57Is there are some inherently bad aspects of the lot of people point out the inherently bad ass we have it is not so
1:18:02much for the people taking the job and not so much for a penny arcade.
1:18:05But for the industry that for the position that they're hiring for.
1:18:09Because the availability of positions like MS devalues the work those people do.
1:18:14Having a company that is attractive enough
1:18:16and the intangibles that they're able to ask for people to sacrifice their entire lives. And take below market pay.
1:18:24It's not so much of their able to do that it's so much of the existence of companies that are able to do that makes the
1:18:30rest of the energy feel like they can turn down the dials on their hiring it sort of makes him like well.
1:18:36You're expected to work like a dog and well you're expected not to make too much money.
1:18:39and if too many companies do that it sort of makes it seem like oh everybody who works and i T.
1:18:44Can never go on vacation and. It's like no you're not Penny Arcade you can't do Do. That because what.
1:18:49What are you giving me like it's what makes me sad is that this position is this job description is like an honest
1:18:56description of many things like.
1:18:58You know insurance companies or big Fortune five hundred companies that are just a terrible description sound.
1:19:03But they lie on their applications.
1:19:05And they're not fun places to work and they don't give you anything to balance off of this
1:19:08but still the existence of Penny Arcade in the bill is kind of like. Margot's talked about this on past those and like.
1:19:14Life isn't fair right. The idea of developers and designers doing work for free.
1:19:18Devalues the work of developers and designers. Ethical why are they doing the work for free.
1:19:22Sometimes they're doing the work for free because it's fun because they're college student and it's fun to make apps
1:19:26and it's fun to do designs and. You're trying to make a living doing your like.
1:19:30Goddamn these people don't work for free. They're devaluing the work of everybody who does.
1:19:34They are they are devaluing with.
1:19:36But they're doing it because it's fun and because like they're intangibles right
1:19:39and that's a rough situation to be in and you could say.
1:19:42Penny Arcade should have a broader view and say we don't want to devalue the work of IP workers
1:19:48and so we're going to try to have a more of sort of I guess if you call it like environmental awareness
1:19:53but in a job market sense instead of like actual environment.
1:19:57That would be a reason not to do this that would be a reason to this job posting is a bad idea.
1:20:03Regardless of how happy the employee the not because of the person who gets a job is going to be sad
1:20:08and not because Penny Arcade need a company but just because of sort of environmental factors and the second reason.
1:20:13This job posting is bad is different and it's think it's much much more concrete and that.
1:20:17This is a bad deal to Robert to never have one I.T. Person.
1:20:21Well we were just talking about backups for a million years. Just as a person who runs a business.
1:20:26This is a bad move business wise. It's. It seems like Penny Arcade does not correctly value.
1:20:33The the role of web applications
1:20:37and you know technology infrastructure in their company because there's a big company there's a lot of stake here.
1:20:42Never trust that to one person not because you're exploiting them not because no one person can do this not because you
1:20:47should pay them more don't pay one guy ten times the salary.
1:20:51You need redundancy you absolutely positively need redundancy and I think.
1:20:55Web stuff
1:20:56and online services is such an important part of the Penny Arcade empire as it existed a that there's no way that I
1:21:01think that any justification to have a single person the does this.
1:21:04For the sake of the company for the sake of the founders for the sake of the other employees.
1:21:09Nothing to do with what the job is like you just cannot have one person you cannot.
1:21:12And has a side effect that if you have two people then one guy can actually go on vacation as many upsides that
1:21:17but ignoring all that pretend he's just like an evil turn of the century industrial revolution. You know. Robber Baron.
1:21:24Don't have one God You gotta have redundancy so that would be my appeal to the Penny Arcade guys that it's insane.
1:21:30That accompany this big and successful is going to have one idea.
1:21:33The Especially because their website being up or websites being up. Is such an important part of the business.
1:21:40You know they.
1:21:41I would imagine I know they run PACs and that's probably a pretty big business
1:21:44but I would imagine the majority of their income. Probably still comes from ad using the site.
1:21:49Do you think it's fair to say. I would say it's a.
1:21:51I was at an even split between Pax merchandise and advertising on a site
1:21:55but again it's privately held companies hard to tell but.
1:21:57But they have multiple lines of business and they're big
1:21:59but the thing is all of them have some aspect of it that involves websites and services
1:22:03and electronic transfers of money. Right.
1:22:05Obviously like they're going to lose a lot for any moment at the site is down it's like there
1:22:09and the longer it's down the more they go into blues like it's.
1:22:12It's not like you know if some restaurant has them psycho down. Who cares.
1:22:16You know like they might lose two customers in a weekend.
1:22:18If you know if they can see the website and figure out their hours.
1:22:21But for some like this yeah you're right that it's very important and.
1:22:26And part of it like I should even point out now is now I'm thinking about this. My job at Tumblr wasn't quite.
1:22:32This extreme.
1:22:33Because David could log in to fix things he wasn't as good at it as I was you know you weren't You're the only one.
1:22:39Right like. He that was like he that was like his secondary ability his primary ability was coding all the.
1:22:44You know the front and the middle layer but. But he could log in and fix servers. To some degree.
1:22:50When I was not available look was not often but you know he could do it. And he did do it.
1:22:54And sometimes he could only like you know. Slightly manage things until I got back.
1:22:58Sometimes you can fix the problem plea. So.
1:23:02And the and the only reason that it was acceptable to have all of that even resting on me.
1:23:07Was because there were only two employees. Like that was it was just two of us for so long.
1:23:12That's why it was OK because there was nobody else available
1:23:15and we couldn't afford anybody else for sucked for a very long time to be you know I think if you can get away with
1:23:20they get all the time one person fifteen years is not like I'm saying that you're doomed you can't have one person.
1:23:24The fact that they can get away with it it's I think it's just penny wise pound foolish like ignoring of whether that
1:23:28person shares an assessor the company to the degree I think they should
1:23:31and none of us can know because we don't know about their bonuses are whatever
1:23:34but although they didn't mention any equity but whatever. Ignoring all of that.
1:23:37And I'm willing to give them all the benefit of the doubt on that a matter of fact because the few things they have
1:23:43that probably one of them is that the conflict in buyout offers because who wouldn't want to buy them because they're
1:23:47just a you know. A money making machine. When they entertain buyout offers. What they what the guys in charge did said.
1:23:54If we take this buyout offer we're going to dole out the money to all of the people in the company
1:23:58and that would be correctly sharing the Enco like it was like.
1:24:01We're not going to take a buyout in the three founders leaving you guys just are out of a job
1:24:04or whatever it was were if we take this money. We're going to divide it probably not even Lee But you know.
1:24:10We're going to divided amongst all employees as if all the employees had had equity in the company which as far as I
1:24:14know they don't legally have equity in the company but that was what the founders did.
1:24:17They're nice guys they're looking out for their people again this is like a family.
1:24:21And when they took a vote they let the whole company vote on this and not a single. Person voted to take the buyout.
1:24:27Even though they knew. Like if we do this you can be. You can get some large presumably large amount of money.
1:24:32Not a single person the company voter base all the people in the company want to you have a Mark O'Connor.
1:24:36Can you know. Identify with this.
1:24:38They wanted to continue doing masters of their own destinies they want to continue to be the family that is that
1:24:43decides if we decide what Penny Arcade does we collectively we twelve or twenty people in this room.
1:24:48We are penny arcade. We don't want to sell out.
1:24:50It's more important to us than the money to continue to be able to steer our own ship.
1:24:56And I think that speaks to the kind of company and is. I just think. One idea person. I mean just as.
1:25:01Just as they don't have a single artist in the company.
1:25:04They have multiple hours doing multiple things and multiple comic strips and. One person is not enough.
1:25:09But also it looks like from from the current job occupants.
1:25:13Post in the form from his description of his work and his skills.
1:25:16It really does also look like he's not a very knowledgeable says admin.
1:25:21And that he has made his main focus is development.
1:25:24Not server ministration or infrastructure management you know burning. Load balancer and stuff.
1:25:29And most of that he just pays rack space to do. And you know.
1:25:33And that's out that's actually very expensive by the way but he pays Rex base to do and.
1:25:38So it actually sounds like they don't really have a dedicated system in at all like eat.
1:25:43It isn't even that this person's doing. All four of those jobs with equal weight. It's he's mostly a developer.
1:25:49And he happens to do a little bit of system integration for the most part most system in tasks.
1:25:53Seem to be gone and done. Or at least adequately covered.
1:25:57It's going on a company that's not a software company tries to write software internally they don't know they don't
1:26:02quite know what's involved in software and Penny Arcade. Seems like companies that. It's not if you.
1:26:07If your company was like Dropbox for your whole company is this like.
1:26:11Is this software and web services you provide like the whole company is focused around that
1:26:15and Penny Arcade is a creative company their whole company is focused on creative endeavors
1:26:18and they do the creative stuff great right.
1:26:20There did don't think of themselves as a company as like oh we run a Web site the Web site is like just how we get our
1:26:26creative outlet to people and it seems like they don't you know don't know how to manage
1:26:30or don't know how to value it correctly because you're right.
1:26:32Paying all that money to rack space again penny wise pound foolish. And like for the for the penny arcade.
1:26:38For the panic Expo.
1:26:39Ticket sales I think the outsource that this year or some other company that does like Ticket sales things
1:26:43and it did not go well like it went the same whenever you see you like cover it live
1:26:47or whatever those live blogging platforms that are out there buying I tried to buy tickets are packed this year.
1:26:52And it was the same situation as cover it live where the site was down and you were in a queue
1:26:57and you can get pages to load in the never like lower than the C.S.S. and You can tell if you've purchased anything.
1:27:02You know. That was the outsource that and that didn't work well either.
1:27:05Like that is a core part of the business they should be investing in it way more than they are you know it's almost as
1:27:11if like in in the tumbler Earl example it's almost as if they already have hired a David
1:27:16but they haven't hired me like they have like.
1:27:20I mean that in the least arrogant way that I can say it like they have the front end developer
1:27:25and let the middleware developer and they haven't. Like this is the job of two people at least and.
1:27:31They've only hired for the front half of it and not for like the back and half.
1:27:36And of course not going to pay somebody enough to do both. I think even the pay thing low.
1:27:41It's so if they the Add the added honest to a fault and. But we don't have numbers.
1:27:47So you don't know like maybe they think they're paying below market
1:27:50but they're still actually offering a reasonably good salary
1:27:52or maybe they're offering a ridiculous low salary we can't tell from the ad.
1:27:56All we can tell us from the people who work there and. This one person who's living.
1:28:00It's hard to tell from them the guy who was there for eight years.
1:28:03Obviously enjoyed it and probably just moved on to some.
1:28:06ELSON is life like there they don't have a lot of turnover in their company they do run it more like a family it seems
1:28:11like all the people who work there are happy with it otherwise why would they stay.
1:28:14Not like a place where you know it and to be a lot of making a big deal about the do you know you.
1:28:21It's inoffensive work environment or whatever someone missing that's like legally is boilerplate and.
1:28:26That sounds vaguely plausible to me because at least one job that I work that I had to sign a thing that said you know.
1:28:32As the core as a matter of course doing this job doing competitive research you may come across websites other people
1:28:37find offensive and blah blah basically was just saying you may see porn sites. As part of your work.
1:28:41And you promise you won't sue us because of right.
1:28:44And because they're out there on the web and you may be going and that.
1:28:48If you work a penny arcade and it's a comic strip that.
1:28:52You know has adult themes
1:28:53and doing competitive research you may agree on a course of things over never that seems like actually kind of
1:28:58reasonable thing to say up front to people that like for example you're familiar with a R.K.
1:29:03But just so you know this is what it's about this is what you may come in contact with. It is not I think.
1:29:08Trying to have people sign away their rights to be sexually harassed
1:29:11or probably because I have to believe that if anything like that was going on inside Penny Arcade we would hear about
1:29:16it right. Like that they're not they're not the N.S.A. Than a CIA the not silencing people as they go out the door.
1:29:23Everyone who works there seems to like working in there they all seem to like each other the people who leave.
1:29:27Do not leave disgruntled and hating it.
1:29:29Maybe it's like a cult numbering washing everybody but I have a really hard time believing that.
1:29:33I still think this is an ill advised. Hiring decision.
1:29:37And I sure as hell wouldn't take that job myself but I am I definitely have mixed feelings about it is this a you know.
1:29:44Is this good or bad for and the person who ends up taking that job
1:29:49and being happy with it I can how can you say if someone takes that job.
1:29:52And they're super happy with it for you know even if they're only happy with their two years like I have people are
1:29:58sometimes are in jobs for less than two years who are you to say that person they shouldn't have taken that job.
1:30:03Maybe in retrospect they will feel like they should and I know if I took that job.
1:30:06And then grew to my current ripe old age. I would regret having taken that job but that's me.
1:30:11Everyone's different so I don't know. I don't think. I mean to wrap this up because I think I think.
1:30:16I think we're in a little long here.
1:30:18I think it's a complicated issue because it divides people along the same lines as like.
1:30:26How much the government should mandate about how things are done or how you. How you live your own life.
1:30:32And people are so split on issues like this like it. Labor laws almost always have this kind of problem.
1:30:37Where it's like well if you know the the government or the society's expectations or you know from critics like us.
1:30:45We might say oh well. Having having like workaholism be the norm is really bad and you know you.
1:30:53You need to have codify vacation schedules and.
1:30:56You know limited hours or paid overtime to discourage constant overworking and stuff like that. You know you have.
1:31:04You have issues where a lot of people think that that should be regulated that the government should say.
1:31:10The government should step in and play well it's really better for people overall.
1:31:15If you live by these rules or follow these guidelines or restrictions are limits.
1:31:20It's kind of like a parent role like you know we know better for you than what you've done what you're claiming so even
1:31:26if the employer wants you to do something. And you agree and you will do it and you're happy doing it.
1:31:31The you know the government might say you know that's actually worse for people in general so we're not going to allow
1:31:36that.
1:31:38And that's a very controversial things similar to that similar to that all of our opinions on this like you said
1:31:43earlier Casey and John both. You know if. If the employees there are happy in that environment. Is it really that bad.
1:31:51And so I think. We can't really. You know we can say this is bad in general and generally you shouldn't take this job.
1:31:59But if they happen to find somebody who will take that job which they probably all they almost certainly will very
1:32:04easily because they have such a big following.
1:32:07We you know we can't really say like that person's an idiot like they're making that choice.
1:32:12But I think we can say in general. You shouldn't do things like this at but even that is even as controversial.
1:32:21You should even for the person taking that job like. You can't be sure that you're going to like it as much as you do.
1:32:26And talk about like labor laws and stuff like that. In general like.
1:32:31This is all sort of talk about first world problems here like labor. Labor laws.
1:32:36There's so much low hanging fruit in terms of stopping the wall much all march of the world not paying their employees
1:32:40enough. This person is going to be paid enough to like get food on the table.
1:32:45Right so in the grand scheme of things it pales in comparison to the worker exploitation that happens lower down in the
1:32:50scale of things but for our little you know. Enlightened world of developers and stuff.
1:32:55This is like the equip the like the the crazy.
1:32:58Equivalent of that
1:32:59and among developers is that we've probably all been in jobs where we felt like we were overworked
1:33:04and we feel like we were in appreciated and then sharing this excess of the company
1:33:07and we see this is the place where that could happen.
1:33:09So be aware don't go in thinking it's all going to Rose in sunshine because it's really really tough especially we see
1:33:14a young person doing it where they don't know they don't know they're going to like they don't know if they're going to
1:33:18be happy because they don't have any experience with anything. And maybe they'll think alike it may be you know.
1:33:22Burnout is definitely a possibility of the Be happy for the first year and realize.
1:33:26I can never go anywhere in a miserable and I've sacrificed my entire life and I didn't realize I was doing it.
1:33:30It's mostly like you're trying to help people go on with their eyes open and I think the brutal and honest
1:33:35and kind of helps in that but it also kind of makes it seem more exciting
1:33:39and daring to young people with less experience of like ought to do this thing because it's super hard and everything.
1:33:44In general it's not even if you're even if they were fixed on the stupid plan of of hiring a single person to do all
1:33:51these jobs.
1:33:52There are better ways to go about presenting that position to have more have a better chance of finding a successful
1:33:59match with someone who really will be happy and I position.
1:34:02And I'll add it with private companies is difficult but you don't just like to wait outside the company.
1:34:08Just for that person to leave one two three four five six seven ten years from now and say.
1:34:12How was it was it but you thought it was Are you happy. You know. We told you so get off my lawn.
1:34:17I mean maybe admit you're going to tell you that maybe maybe they are going to love it maybe they got think it's
1:34:20awesome.
1:34:21I have to say having consume tons and tons of Penny Arcade on content over the years
1:34:25and seeing all like what their work life
1:34:27and there are many times I've said Boy I wish my work was like that boyish I cared about my coworkers the way they
1:34:32apparently care about their right and that's why they get all these employees
1:34:34and we just we just want them not to take advantage of that and like exploit somebody that.
1:34:40We know we have this environment look awesome on camera and secretly inside were evil.
1:34:44And we're going to abuse this person. And we're going to get some sucker in like that's.
1:34:48That's what we fear but we don't know what's going on so it's that's a fear
1:34:51but you can't say that's definitely what it's like inside Penny Arcade and.
1:34:54I know I don't mix and so this is even this is not even touching the.
1:34:59Mike's many foot in mouth disease problems and his major problems understanding on line
1:35:04and again this topic I don't think you guys know about them but it's probably not appropriate for a tech show
1:35:08but this job listening is all right then. Let's wrap it up. Thanks a lot to our to sponsor this week.
1:35:14Tang and Warby Parker. And we will see you next week.
1:35:20Know the show is over they didn't even mean to say it was accidental.
1:35:28With accidental Joe because it was that death was accidental. And you did a little bit.
1:35:52And he what else says so that's keep lists and the and team article.
1:36:06It's a different key is paying our kid is a division of issue. A company that engender strong feelings so if we see.
1:36:29We'll see if we get tons of feedback from the people who hate Penny Arcade
1:36:32and say they were defending him too much I'm from the people who love me OK didn't say we were saying bad things about
1:36:37our Maybe we'll get almost no feedback at all which means that there is no overlap in our audiences. I wonder what.
1:36:44What do you think will be more hated. Our opinion. Our collective opinion on a penny arcade job posting or me or Casey.
1:36:55Why can't it be both.
1:36:58Probably the right I really hated Margo in cases opinion of the bit now I think I'll get the worst of it because the
1:37:03problem with problem of trying to be like to have the dishes he nuanced
1:37:07or like you you acknowledge the unknowns in a situation like all we have to go on is a job posting at a bunch of video
1:37:13the none of us really know. And you know like that uncertainty.
1:37:17And that hedging seems like what you're defending then you're saying there better is I'm just acknowledging the
1:37:21unknowns of people hate that because it's not. They just want to see you decisively come down for against.
1:37:26And that sort of wishy washy of the they target is wishy washy
1:37:30but I feel like it's its accuracy if the knowledge in the unknowns you can't make definitive statements without more
1:37:35information.
1:37:36And that comes off as not as certainty as much more attractive and interesting
1:37:40and so they want you to be certain about something and. I can't. Well I'm proud that I'm pronouncing to visit wrong.
1:37:46Probably live. I've always heard divisive I bet if I looked it up in the dictionary now tell me this Tuesday.
1:37:51Princie Asian. I mean you know.
1:37:52I almost called you out on it but since I've gotten burned my a lot of burned myself so bad on these things.
1:37:58I feel like Richard Pryor you know I've let myself up trying to smoke if you will not literally but figuratively.
1:38:03And so I refuse to make any sort of commentary on grammar
1:38:07or pronunciation issues it says one pronunciation devices while it's a divisive issue I'm still I'm still way ahead a
1:38:14group or on mispronunciation. Your problem John. Is that you're a fan of Penny Arcade..
1:38:22You actually know them you're clear closer to than the ME in K.C. You know.
1:38:26I don't know that my I read the comic about. Well you K.C. and I as far as OK we don't give a shit about Penny Arcade.
1:38:32Like I said I don't I don't I never going to the comic I was you know I like I've I've known of it for. I don't know.
1:38:38Years a decade. But I've never read it regular I've never really cared and. Honestly when people link me to it.
1:38:45I don't even find that funny it's not my kind of.
1:38:47Not my kind of thing that you know you have to be a gamer it's a game or broke
1:38:50but you're actually close enough that like any opinion you make. And you know as you said like by having a nuanced.
1:38:58Hedge opinion. Anything you say is going to actually anger both sides.
1:39:03Like the people who don't like them from this job posting are going to be like. You didn't come down hard enough.
1:39:08And the people who are fans of the me like you traitor you're one of us.
1:39:12Like but the thing is it's like the cult of personality where you think you know people who listen to their podcast
1:39:18and everything in a certain point reading Penny Arcade fifteen years
1:39:21and going to like inventions you start to feel like you know the people and when they do. Terrible stupid things.
1:39:27If you don't know them. You just simply condemn them and say you have done a terrible stupid thing.
1:39:31If you do know them you're like oh.
1:39:33You did a terrible stupid thing like if your friend does it don't you like talk to your friend
1:39:36and say What are you doing man like. Because they've done lots of terrible stupid things.
1:39:41And I even though I don't know these people at all the feeling I get is not like.
1:39:46Hey there's a thing I never heard of you know when someone thinks you do something or someone said something dumb.
1:39:50And you have no idea who it is all you know is like oh man this person is a terrible person. Right.
1:39:54Like some You Tube video some person saying something terrible
1:39:56or some politician you never heard of saying something terrible. You just instantly go back I suppose All right.
1:40:01But if someone links you to like your brother saying something terrible.
1:40:04You want to talk to your brothers they were you doing man I you know you'd hope is that I know you're not as terrible
1:40:09as that is or maybe you are a terrible me to talk about it about
1:40:12and that's how I feel that the penny arcade stuff like it was a good poster and see Frontalot which is a musician
1:40:17and also a friend of the guys with a similar conflict going. You're enjoying a terrible thing.
1:40:23But I know you guys have it in you to a realize that it's terrible and B.
1:40:29Fix it and seeing them not take those two steps. Not seem to realize what was wrong with they did.
1:40:34And not seeming to fix it is just so frustrating a lot of people are sort of cutting ties or like you've had.
1:40:40You know three strikes you're out you keep doing these dumb things. And maybe they just don't have people around them.
1:40:44Explain to them what the problem of the really can turn a lot is it. And like it's.
1:40:50It's a tough situation and you know I feel like I feel like that I have this.
1:40:54Un spoken relationship with these people where I totally don't the same way that people feel like they know us because
1:40:58they listen to our podcast. And so yeah I definitely am closer to it but I don't.
1:41:03What I don't want people think is because I'm close to it I defend these terrible things they do which again I don't
1:41:07want to get into but simply the job posting itself.
1:41:10I don't think that was the right way to go about that on so many different levels. Despite the fact that I.
1:41:15Knowledge that it is very possible that the president takes the job will be happy with it
1:41:19and will come out of the company saying I was glad to get that job.
1:41:23You know it's funny hearing you talk about you know knowing someone who does something stupid and knowing
1:41:28and not know seeing a stranger do something stupid.
1:41:31And I feel like Marco that's why you get burned a lot because you're very passionate in very Pinney needed which in
1:41:37and of itself is not bad but I think that a lot of times you come across as arrogant and because I know you
1:41:44and Will both of us know you as well as we do.
1:41:46I don't think it's thing of it and then I'll see I can think of a great example
1:41:49but also the Internet go free cannot speak as Marco said this you know ridiculously arrogant thing.
1:41:54And some Me I'm just like we want. Because I know you and I know. I know one off a bell.
1:42:00The where you're coming from to know that's probably not how you meant it
1:42:04or even if it is you meant to you know Level two out of ten in the internets taking to the level ten out of ten.
1:42:10And it's a very it's a very similar thing and so it's often funny for me to watch some of the skirmishes you.
1:42:16You either get yourself into or put yourself in because not always
1:42:21but most times I'm like oh that instance market the market whatever you get graded on a curve once once you have any
1:42:26amount of rain right. It's scrutiny is much higher and Penny Arcade like.
1:42:30That's not excusing them at all Penny Arcade has tons of same
1:42:33and they guess what you get the good in the bad that comes with that I mean Same with the market would you rather have
1:42:37people not care what you say. Or overreact. About what you say and they mean like.
1:42:41That's the price of a depends on the day.
1:42:43I know but that but that's the price of being well known that the price of being successful in your endeavors is that.
1:42:48Things you say are going to be scrutinized I mean the obvious that the biggest event of any kind of politician
1:42:53or the president rather they say anything a fart the wrong way to say they don't like broccoli as an international
1:42:57incident number that with. Maybe you don't. George Bush anyway. We were alive for that.
1:43:02That's that comes with the territory and it's for Penny Arcade guys.
1:43:06A end up doing legitimately bad things
1:43:08and be railed against the the unfairness of being being held to the standard that they didn't want to sign up for
1:43:16and like. That's. I understand the emotion. But you have to realize that comes with the territory you. Can't you can't.
1:43:24There's no like.
1:43:25There's no one in your movie like ah ha
1:43:26but I don't except that you're going to scrutinize me therefore my actions shouldn't be taken as seriously as they are
1:43:32you don't get to decide that right. You do speak for a large media conglomerate empire.
1:43:37Your words do have more effect than they would if your regular press and you can't go back to being a regular joe.
1:43:44Yeah. It's. That's the way it is I feel like I should if I sit down with them for like.
1:43:49OK maybe they would have to be an island for a month. Because sometimes I feel like I thought.
1:43:54I'm going to see jobs in a room I could convince him of X. Y. and Like not realistically he would walk out of the room.
1:43:58I need to have him prisoner in a nice way.
1:44:02So that they can run away eventually though it's like in the movie where like some.
1:44:06You know there's a prisoner or even just like a student to like him to being the hate the teacher
1:44:10and they teach for the first six months but then they finally come around
1:44:12and then the real work it's going that's what you need.
1:44:14Like someone should be able to talk to these guys
1:44:18and explain to them what it is they're missing because I really believe they can be turned around just haven't done yet.
1:44:23Well it's. I don't think they think there's anything wrong with this.
1:44:27I know that's that's problems hero that Herod is I mean like this like maybe someone could explain to you maybe no
1:44:33one's explaining at the right way let me explain it again and his role. Well and you know it's hard when.
1:44:39When you get as much crap as they get which I can only begin to imagine.
1:44:44You know I get some small fraction of that amount of crap and. I am. I'm always surprised.
1:44:53In the new way that I've accidentally offended people like. It's a new it's like every week.
1:44:59I accidentally stumble upon a new way to I've offended somebody. And it gets to me it really does I you know.
1:45:06I want to be a nice guy I don't want to be a dick. I don't want people to think I'm a dick.
1:45:11But you're just so good at it. But I really don't mean to be. That's.
1:45:15I think that's that's totally unintentional but you but you would learn from your mistakes like
1:45:21and again I don't want to get into the specific instances
1:45:23but they'll they'll say something that is like unintentionally. Sexist or Transvaal because something. And they'd.
1:45:29And they literally don't know what they just did wrong. And that's the problem. Right. And that.
1:45:36And the worst reactions to get defensive in double down and that's what they do they get grants of
1:45:39and double down on the wrong thing it did. And it's like.
1:45:43That's all they have like trying to educate someone to like if you do something that is legitimately.
1:45:47You know if you said something that actually is arrogant.
1:45:49You know the way you said it is dismissive of other people
1:45:52and whatever I feel like that you learn from that experience and learn to say the same thing in a different way
1:45:57or be more clear about what you're saying right or.
1:45:59You know express your express your sentiment more accurately so it's less likely to be misinterpreted the wrong way.
1:46:05I don't think you've ever been a situation where you said something that is like totally wrong and terrible.
1:46:10And double down on it. And we're like.
1:46:13No Actually screw you and let me tell you why I'm going to say that even more like that total.
1:46:19You know emotional reaction your reaction always is. You know. Introspective and.
1:46:24Well not always something you know meant but know that's that's the problem is like my instinct. I think.
1:46:30I think which is a natural instinct is to be defensive like and.
1:46:33I look back on these on like you know things that that blow up didn't mean to blow up that
1:46:39and look back on like what I actually said and did.
1:46:42After it's all over and I and I can see like wow I did completely the wrong thing like I I got the fences.
1:46:48I was being a mature or angry or impulsive like. I look back and I'm ashamed of it but you know it's easy to say.
1:46:55But you but you learn from it the don't you like you don't make that exact specific mistake again right.
1:46:59Yeah but I find new ones like you know it's. It's easy to say Oh. If I was in the situation like this. I would.
1:47:07I would do X. Y. and Z. Like I would react this way. But then it's. When you're actually in that situation.
1:47:12A lot of times doesn't turn out that way. And it.
1:47:16So hard when you when your instinct is to be defensive or to say things off the cuff.
1:47:24As if you're talking to a smaller group of people who likes you more than the actual group people are talking to that's
1:47:28much bigger. It's.
1:47:31It's really hard to get used to that and it's really hard to to fundamentally change your behavior your personality.
1:47:37To to stand off those rough edges I mean. I'm thirty one and I still haven't figured out how to do that quite well yet.
1:47:44Like I'm trying.
1:47:45But I really have not figured it out yet there are similar ages I think every tween you
1:47:50and I think they're there in their thirty's like they have kids.
1:47:52Similar age like they're trying to figure it out as well and that that instinct to lash out like it's.
1:47:59It's not just instinct lash out it's like the things that you get called on are just so minor compared to the things
1:48:05they do wrong. And it's.
1:48:06Well I think it's mostly because I have a much smaller audience so like if I had an audience the size of there's I
1:48:12think I would get as much as they do if not more because I'm even less experienced at talking to an audience as large
1:48:21as theirs as they are. Well I mean. Here's a guy name never like that. So you said something like. You know.
1:48:28Well everyone knows the girls can climb trees I guess is something sexist like that right. And.
1:48:32And you didn't understand that that statement was sexist. You. All you can see is about the tree climbing business.
1:48:38And like you didn't understand conceptual conceptually like you know like what sex is about that's just a statement of
1:48:44fact everyone knows girls can't climb trees like you don't understand the broader context in which US They've been
1:48:48and like. Then you double down you get are you about and you get lost in the details and it's like you like.
1:48:55There is a base understanding of what it is stay here that. That does not exist in your head.
1:49:01And so even if you get to the point as they frequently do where they are an apology mode
1:49:04and the like where we're sorry we.
1:49:07The last thing you want to do is offend people we care about all these people like honest statements of apology
1:49:11but they don't understand what they're apologizing when they don't understand like the you know.
1:49:16The historical and cultural context of sexism versus just well I said something wrong kind of.
1:49:22At some point and now I have to apologize for it but I don't really understand what I'm falling for.
1:49:27That's that's their problem and they keep doing that over and over again
1:49:29and nothing you have done is ever reach that level of like you not you understand why someone is like if you say
1:49:35something that dismissive of like some programming I wouldn't people get you understand it's because you were
1:49:39dismissive of permit. There's not like a a millennia long. Oppression of P.H.P.
1:49:44Programmer things like that the context that you are completely unaware of or not able to internalize
1:49:48and it's hard lot of people are not able to internalize those things and. One way is to just you know.
1:49:54Shun
1:49:55and the other way is to try to explain to you know they call them allies like someone who wants to do the right thing
1:50:00but doesn't understand what they did wrong to try to bring them onto your side but explain what they did wrong.
1:50:06Like those blogs I think serve a purpose because I feel like I have in seeing not just them
1:50:10but on every other Internet blog where someone says something and then than some interest group jumps on them
1:50:14and shred them to bits. Has made me more aware.
1:50:18Not that like that interest group is a totally right and I guys totally wrong
1:50:21but just more aware of issues that I wasn't aware of before.
1:50:24In a way that gives me a bigger picture of like humanity like makes you question your assumptions about things that you
1:50:30hadn't thought about before. So that you know. So I think.
1:50:34I hope some portion of the audience seeing these train wrecks.
1:50:37Is coming out of it like maybe those people those allies are being educated.
1:50:41Even if the people involved in the conflict are not.
1:50:45Which of this to bed I'm only on tech podcasts I would love to be on progress to talk specifically about the issues
1:50:50involved here but it is not appropriate for tech but yes it does make a new one I mean you know who was another bug as.
1:50:57No replied. Yes I mean across three Idiots can do it then anyone can.
1:51:03I know it's funny I was just complaining to Marmie not complaining
1:51:06but lamenting is probably a better word to Marco I think was earlier today that as part of my new found order ideas
1:51:12like an after poll minus list celebrity is.
1:51:16I feel like I'm getting the point and maybe just cuz I'm an idiot
1:51:19but I feel like I'm getting the point that everything I post anywhere in any capacity is met with a million.
1:51:25Like silly critiques and. L. In it just gets.
1:51:30It gets annoying and it gets frustrating and a lot of times I want to engage and where I think Mark
1:51:36and I are both learning is. I'm trying to get better about not engaging. But my national reaction is.
1:51:44You know somebody posts on Twitter if you know what exactly they said but something.
1:51:48Something along the lines of oh you know our well yeah that's what it was it was you know I Show on Blog had had asked
1:51:54me to do something for his new website and. When somebody had posted.
1:51:58You know why the hell do I care what this this other guy has to say and I and so.
1:52:03Because I'm an idiot I engaged and I said something along the lines of Well you know.
1:52:06Even the other guy has an opinion every once in awhile.
1:52:09And their response which I should've expected was something along the lines of.
1:52:12You know honestly I don't like you or Marco I just listen for John.
1:52:15Which is pretty much everyone that was since the show.
1:52:18So I think I remember the sort of did you see what I responded to that person.
1:52:21No I don't think that's because I didn't see see you. But if you could look look at the thread you'll see.
1:52:26Like I rarely engage as well but sometimes sometimes it's worth doing.
1:52:32You know like maybe and maybe it was inappropriate for you to engage in that thing and just so i times
1:52:36when I don't like here has been about like a lot of times people will say that they don't like your whatever.
1:52:44Thing they don't like within your part cast they don't care about your opinion.
1:52:48They will be expressing it not so many words that they have different priorities than you do.
1:52:54The fact that they're throwing that in your face may bother you but you have to also like.
1:52:59It's OK for people to have a different opinion it's not like what you do like. All right. Like that. There's nothing.
1:53:06There's an argument to be had You're not going to turn them around you're not going to.
1:53:10It's not my job and not my desire to find everyone who doesn't like me can and they should like me. Right.
1:53:15The only thing I will engage on is people being mean for no good reason and people getting facts wrong.
1:53:21And even even those I will. Selectively gauge on.
1:53:25So if you will get facts wrong I will correct them because that is something where there is you know.
1:53:29An argument to be haven't and I only do that if I'm feeling energetic
1:53:32and people being I mean most of the time I will let that slide but today when I saw that tweet. You were talking about.
1:53:38I didn't want all of that slide. And I thank my responses don't be a jerk. Because like there's a don't be a jerk.
1:53:45You wouldn't like that's being just being a jerk. You don't like i'm fine.
1:53:48You don't like we had to say Fine don't keep throwing in their faith in your we don't like your You're going like
1:53:53ending you said OK fine don't listen to show the end period. Don't be a jerk about it. And so that's you know.
1:53:59That's like it's OK not to like them. It's not.
1:54:02It's nothing wrong with them maybe you don't like looking at us plenty of things that I like to listen to
1:54:06or watch either.
1:54:07But I think the people out and tell them how much I don't like them repeatedly that's just being a dark. Yeah.
1:54:12I think people. People who don't get a lot of random strangers giving them feedback.
1:54:18Would probably be shocked at how much crap you get
1:54:22when you have a lot of RAM drinkers giving you feedback on the Internet like you know just for extreme version of this.
1:54:29Look on Twitter look at the at reply stream like a celebrity
1:54:33or somebody who has like you know hundreds of thousands of followers
1:54:36or more like look at look at look at Gruber's celebrity. You know. Look at river's stream. Look at his that replied.
1:54:42You know look anybody anybody who has a large following. Who who says anything of any. You know value ever and.
1:54:50You're going to see hundreds and hundreds of people calling him a criminal and tell them they're an idiot.
1:54:56And you know when you put yourself out there. And once you get any size audience at all.
1:55:03You're going to get a lot of really good feedback from people. And you could get. You could get a hundred positive.
1:55:09E-mails and tweets a day.
1:55:11Saying that they liked what you wrote and that was great and then you get four idiots who tell you that your.
1:55:17Just a moron and they hate everything you do and.
1:55:22It's really you know for some people who have a thick skin you know it's easy for to let that.
1:55:28You know his role if you're back and OK that's fine.
1:55:32Some people read it bothers them like and I think that is the natural the natural reaction is that's a bother you
1:55:38and I'm one of those people. It bothers me. And every every nasty thing that I that I get bothers me. Which is one.
1:55:47Like. So my recommended thing to Casey but you know I told him earlier I am like. My strategy for this is.
1:55:54If somebody says something. Uncivil or by my definition on reasonable in some way over Twitter. I just block them.
1:56:03First time.
1:56:03First offense don't care walk and then it's gone because modern Twitter clients
1:56:07when you block somebody actually remove the tweet from your timeline you stop seeing it and.
1:56:13Generally speaking a lot more hate. Comes from a lot fewer people than you think.
1:56:20And so you know you might have like four guys who troll you with everything you write or say.
1:56:27And the same four guys every time.
1:56:29So if you go hand out for blocks you're limited like eighty percent of your trolling you see.
1:56:34And I know that you know a lot of people and John even you said you like a lot of people would engage with that
1:56:40or try to comment or fight back and. And I found that. Almost universally never to be worthwhile.
1:56:47And almost universally always makes everything worse and makes me get more angry or annoyed
1:56:53or feeling bad about it like it just builds the negativity in the best way for me to handle it just to remove it.
1:56:59Because I can't deal with that like Joe Spolsky left blogging because of this.
1:57:05Like Joe on software there's so much good stuff on there.
1:57:08But because he wrote things with strong opinions to an audience of programmers. He got the worst crap from people ever.
1:57:14EDITION to all the positive and he wrote in one of his one of his last like Main Post
1:57:18when his blog was was still active but he was basically saying he's quitting.
1:57:22One of things he wrote was like he could get one hundred positive comments and one negative one
1:57:26and that negative only bother him all day. And I totally get that on the exact same way. Oh yeah.
1:57:31If you can learn to to not think you should because I think you should do whatever it takes to you know.
1:57:38Have an even keel and if it's blocking that's what it is but as someone who usually.
1:57:43I have very rarely buy of like spammers obviously but I very rarely block people who are being jerks to me.
1:57:48Because if you can learn to absorb that there is very often.
1:57:53Some kernel of truth in the in the negative feedback the you get particularly in the negative feedback that you hate
1:57:59the most because you will.
1:58:00If someone says something to you like and they said to me that that I am tremendously overweight.
1:58:06That would not bother me because I'm not trying to the overweight right.
1:58:08But if they say something that's close to home.
1:58:10Right then that bothers you more in the closer they get to the truth even if they're super mean about it
1:58:15and don't rely on aren't you know that if they're saying it much worse than it is.
1:58:20If there is some kernel of truth you can have the most visceral negative reaction to that.
1:58:24And if you can learn to absorb that what you can do is come away from it
1:58:27and learn from whatever that kernel of truth that it is figure it out examine it and try to improve on that axis.
1:58:34Going for.
1:58:34If you think it's an important thing to improve on maybe the person saying you're doing something that they think is
1:58:38bad that you think is good then fine whatever ignore them but if. If it really bothers you because you also kind of.
1:58:44Deep down agrees that's a bad thing.
1:58:46You work on it
1:58:47and try to make it better doesn't mean you have to absorb tons of abuse to make this happen you can still block a
1:58:51person or whatever.
1:58:53But the the anti pattern is totally blocking out all negative feedback
1:58:57and just you know sort of becoming a Hollywood rock star where you don't have anything like you become Tom Cruise
1:59:03or you know. I don't mean Tom Cruise but anyway.
1:59:06Where you were you don't let anything negative in you start living in your own bubble.
1:59:10And that's your way to deal with things and that's.
1:59:11You don't want that to happen you don't want to isolate yourself so much from feedback that you are inside a bubble
1:59:17and I found that most people. If you call them on their B.S. Most people will be you know. You know a little bit.
1:59:26They'll build a little bit of introspection if you do in the right way it's very difficult to do you have to disengage
1:59:30yourself from the process but one Examples are the I was seven kid video.
1:59:34The kid who was like crying about I listen we talked about on the show right.
1:59:38So I tweeted that before I think was before the show I tweeted that.
1:59:41And some person responded to me and said boy that kid you know your kid is a big Brad or something like that right.
1:59:48And so there's two things one one that's not my kid
1:59:51and two like it's a seven year old like crying about her five year old whatever is crying about things that five year
1:59:56old cry about right. And so I kind of just ignored that.
2:00:00I'm not going to convince them that kid is not a brat that's not my goal. But they got a factor on so I said.
2:00:06That's not my kid. Which is true.
2:00:07And you know I didn't try to and you would know that if you listen to the blow up no I just looked at my kid.
2:00:12One can one want to correct that the second thing is I said.
2:00:15That's not my kid
2:00:16and that's an unkind thing to say because it's an unkind thing to say you're going to say kid you see on the video was
2:00:20just a little kid was crying at some point is a brat.
2:00:23That is an unkind thing to say and that's it that's all I said and this was an older woman who said this or whatever
2:00:28and right or wrong you know you think like us older women should be some people are all places people are mean.
2:00:33This person was not convinced my by my you know they agreed that it was a mean thing to say
2:00:37but then also tried to you know.
2:00:39Justify why they said it over OK Well I'm glad that's not your kid
2:00:42but I still think they're kind of brought in that was it like I'm not going to pursue that further.
2:00:46But I think that that tiny piece feedback I gave them. Correcting the fact and saying that they were being unkind.
2:00:51Hopefully they gave them a moment's notice of saying.
2:00:55Yes I was saying an unkind thing about a five year old on the Internet just now.
2:00:58I may be dismissed and move on with their life but I hope that's planning a little see in every month in them.
2:01:03Now that you know. It's not my thing that's what and.
2:01:06If that was my kid maybe our reaction would be much more violent than I would block them and I would argue with them
2:01:11but like that.
2:01:12You know the correct reaction if you're going to engage at all is to try to help that person realize what a jerk
2:01:17they're being moral right and like what you said is exactly correct which is like.
2:01:21You know when the criticism is a little bit true. That's what hurts the most. And I think.
2:01:27John you're exactly right that blocking out sources of negative criticism.
2:01:31Completely is not good that's that's really bad I mean one thing I love about putting myself out there online is that I
2:01:40get challenged on so many things that it forces me to become a better person it makes me a better writer.
2:01:46It makes me a better thinker. It makes me a better person to have so much constant feedback. Good and bad.
2:01:53The problem is it's. You have to draw a line somewhere you have to be able to distinguish between good feedback and.
2:02:01People just being unreasonable or being trolls and.
2:02:06When you have a large audience you're going to get a lot of both and.
2:02:10You also have to have to make sure that you're not going to get such a massive deluge of negative feedback constantly
2:02:18that it will discourage you from continuing to be present there.
2:02:22And you know make you leave the internet or stop doing something like. I have so many horrible vocal traits.
2:02:30Somehow not a lot of people have called me out on it in public because people aren't that mean I guess.
2:02:36And certainly able to have a career as a pod cast or. I would never have thought.
2:02:40Five years ago that I would be making a good chunk of my living from podcasts. Because I'm not a good speaker at all.
2:02:49I have so many problems I thought about going to a speech therapist as an adult to fix. Weird things I do want to talk.
2:02:55But I haven't had a pressing reason to yet because no one call me out on it.
2:03:00But it's important to distinguish between people being mean for for invalid reasons or just being mean you know.
2:03:09Because their me.
2:03:11Can i don't think here because I think I have a great example so this person were talking earlier the that was being a
2:03:17troll was just saying you know. Literally he. This person said I wish there was a way to mute out.
2:03:23Marco and me another.
2:03:25That's just that's just really not necessary and like John city the johns reply and said Don't be a jerk.
2:03:30However I've seen a lot of feedback for myself. Things like.
2:03:34Why do you hedge so much you don't need to do that you know when I say well you know.
2:03:39Here's this big long opinion blah blah blah blah blah.
2:03:41But that's just what I think like that I don't need to do that that's not necessary that is sometimes hurtful feedback
2:03:47because it strikes close to home just like you were saying.
2:03:50But it's good and positive and constructive feedback as opposed to. I wish I could meet two idiots. That's just not.
2:03:58That's not helpful. And there is a big difference between the two. Right and like you know if.
2:04:04If so many hundreds of listeners.
2:04:07Told you after the very first show you had too much
2:04:11or hundreds of listeners told me after my very first pod cast that they don't like the way. Talk.
2:04:17We almost would have certainly stopped and left. And you know that's. Then like you know then everyone loses we lose.
2:04:23People who like the show lose. You know so like it.
2:04:26That's bad for everyone so it really is important to have some kind of balance and.
2:04:30You can't control what people are going to say to you.
2:04:33So it's really important to get be able to manage that somehow
2:04:38and you know that's why hand out Twitter blocks aggressively.
2:04:40It's just to manage that incoming stream just so that you know I'm not trying to block out all criticism I do want to
2:04:45hear valid criticism.
2:04:47I just want to try to filter out a lot of invalid criticism and a lot of unnecessary nastiness and.
2:04:53If I don't filter all that out. I'm afraid I would just get tired of in leave.
2:04:58One of the reasons I'm lighter on the blocking is because it's like I will never on block a person on your head because
2:05:03he got a Twitter website. Like an animal as they say.
2:05:06And then finally like I'm like oh but you never going to do that and like everyone has a bad day.
2:05:11Everyone is cranky about something they don't like something you say they'll say some mean thing.
2:05:14I'm willing to give people. You know the benefit of the doubt they say some jerky thing.
2:05:20In till it becomes like oh here's the Perth and.
2:05:22All they ever say is a jerky thing they're clearly not even a fan of the show
2:05:26or anything that I do with they're just here to harass me no then they just become this becomes harassment
2:05:31and then yes you. Paul the block I don't have people like that but. For example a game like the sexes and thing.
2:05:36Many women online do have that.
2:05:38Tons and tons of people who are just there to be evil harassers and dangerous kinds of ways
2:05:43and I strongly encourage them to hand out the block like crazy in that instance.
2:05:47All of us I think are lucky enough not to deal with that at all
2:05:49and I can't even imagine with I'll be like they were whining about people saying that we don't have a good pod cast
2:05:54which is nothing compared to the crap they get but yet that there is different categories
2:05:59and the cat category of negative feedback I get is of a kind where I do not find myself having to hand out the blocks
2:06:07spam or the no and get immediate book. Well Joy And you've also.
2:06:11You've managed to develop your your way of arguing and presenting points. So well.
2:06:18And this is probably because you're so ancient compared to us knew the man is the power of Usenet if you want to see me
2:06:25making terrible arguments go search for us at archives for yet. Burned in the crucible of flame wars on usenet.
2:06:32Now sir. By tons of Google ads. But you know like you've developed this for.
2:06:38What a decade longer than we have or close to it you know that. Like you're a lot better at it.
2:06:44You're like you know you're like you know there's this large chunk of time ahead of us in having all those rough edges
2:06:50worn down of the argument style so that now you're really good at it.
2:06:54So I think you get a lot less of the crap think he's you know I do.
2:06:58I don't think it's necessarily age because you can find fifty year olds who are just babyish like.
2:07:03I think it just comes from you know like this one
2:07:06when I found the internet the thing I wanted to do with it was argue about computers with it like like so many other
2:07:11people and argue about computers I did and argue about computers besom are people. Eventually teaches you.
2:07:18Like what you're wrong about. And how to construct an argument.
2:07:23And how to be able to either it makes you flee or like it you double down and become even a bigger jerk or if you.
2:07:28If this is really something you want to pursue which it was for me. I became better at it it's like.
2:07:33Like any kind of skill that you build up you know it's like.
2:07:36If you start playing tennis and you keep getting your butt kicked.
2:07:39And your reaction is to just hit the ball hard you can enjoy the air that is not getting better.
2:07:44That is doubling down on your idiocy. Or you can say. Why do I keep getting beat.
2:07:48What techniques can I learn to make myself better.
2:07:51Let me practice and you know and different people have different reactions I think it's. It's not so much.
2:07:55The the years of experience will help
2:07:57but it's like what you did with those years because again I know plenty of people and you know on Usenet in forums
2:08:02or whatever who are just as abrasive and terrible and illogical and irrational
2:08:06and emotional as they were ten fifteen years ago and have learned nothing
2:08:10but there are lots of other people who left that environment tireless
2:08:13and there are other people who are slowly getting better and who eventually. That because if you pursue that as like.
2:08:18This is something I'm interested I'm interested in arguing sounds crazy but it's you know. Some people are into it.
2:08:22I think they are audience.
2:08:24That does not sound crazy at all that it's not just coming from you that you would be interested in arguing.
2:08:28Right and I think to some degree always always like the market why do you.
2:08:32Why do you bother putting your opinions on blogs like why do you. You know like you want.
2:08:36You want to say here's what I have to say what do you have to say you want to hear like good feedback from smart people
2:08:41and so you can go back
2:08:42and forth if you didn't care if you weren't interested in that you wouldn't be putting your opinions out there.
2:08:46Like you wouldn't. Crave that back and forth so that's something you're doing with your life.
2:08:51I am the first when I publish a blog post. The very first thing I do is basically spend the next forty five minutes.
2:08:57Monitoring Twitter. Or an e-mail and.
2:08:59And you know hoping that I get some feedback and reading it all
2:09:03and possibly addressing it like that's the very first thing I do like it.
2:09:06If I if I couldn't do that it would feel very lonely. And it would not.
2:09:11It wouldn't give me as much of a return of satisfaction. Which is probably saying a lot about me and my you know.
2:09:18Ego to them and our modern culture as a whole. But.
2:09:22But like that's the getting that feedback is of utmost importance and.
2:09:26It would feel very strange Now if I didn't get a kind of feedback. You know and very close friend of the show.
2:09:32Underscore David Smith said in a chat a moment ago.
2:09:35I find it really important to have a group of trusted friends who can tell you honest criticism.
2:09:39Unsolicited feedback is where things get really rough.
2:09:41And I completely agree with them I think it's nice to have a little bit of unsolicited feedback as long as it's
2:09:45constructive. Because sometimes like I was saying earlier.
2:09:49You know I might not think Marco's being a criminal because I know Marco
2:09:52and I know that more often than not he's not intending to be an acquittal. But maybe somebody who doesn't know Marco.
2:09:59Thinks he is being a criminal
2:10:00and so it might be useful for market to hear some random person say hey you know what you really came off like it
2:10:04happened on that.
2:10:06But generally speaking I think it's extremely important just like Dave said to have a group that can call you out in
2:10:13say you know what you really need to work on whatever they say is
2:10:17and it can be about what you're working on it could be about something call you know just how you treat people could be
2:10:22about any number of things but having that I think is very important.
2:10:27So give us here all the handbrakes that are going to cover that section of it actually a step in the process to my best.
2:10:32But I think it's better than the show a little different it's definitely another tack by guess on by the way speaking
2:10:38of things that people get wrong no one is called me and they were my friends calling me on these things.
2:10:43To chat room call me as they called me on divisive but not call me in that I believe
2:10:47when I partition Maryland for an Aryan style song parody for our style parity for our song. Ironically misspoke.
2:10:56The name of the R.E.M. Album. And I think I said plural murmurs and that's crazy talk.
2:11:00And it was bad isn't it that just want everyone to know I know what the penalty I'm with I think this is meeting its
2:11:06peak of things that are eating away at you
2:11:08and it's like a song called me on that all the other this Dylan happens constantly is like my mispronunciation nuclear.
2:11:13Like I mispronounce it all to I know it's wrong I'm not doing it on purpose I'm not like oh I'm taking a stand.
2:11:18I'm going to say at their own way. Nope. I totally want to say it the right way every time. It just comes out. Nucular.
2:11:24So many times and as I said in the many to retire I blame the eighty's like I do not want to say that.
2:11:29It just happens I don't want to happen. I know it's wrong. Thank you for all the feedback people. I'm trying.
2:11:37Also I didn't really intend for this to become group therapy but I'm kind of wedded to this was this was pretty good.
2:11:42It's like back to work. Yeah yeah yeah I was just thinking myself this feels little back to work next week O.C.D.
2:11:48and Comics blah in the mix and a lot. And then lots of comics.
2:11:54And I actually I would love for Merlin to address this kind of topic at some point
2:11:59and then it doesn't really fit into the show as I think.
2:12:01I think he's talking about this about how to handle negative feedback
2:12:05and I think you talk a lot about like negative self talk like you. Being your own worst enemy.
2:12:10Negatively about the bill
2:12:11but it's very it's a similar type of thing where sometimes the things you're saying to yourself. Are just mean.
2:12:16And sometimes things you're saying to yourself are like there's a does a kernel of truth that you need to address and.
2:12:20Like I feel like he has talked about this I feel like we just kind of did a miniature middle of some weird back to the
2:12:26work. Thing back to the work. And now I was not ready to say the. There I know your friend. You know.
2:12:33This is one of the things the problem of being on a podcast is.
2:12:36You would think the connection between your brain in your mouth is fairly solid. And I listen to myself.
2:12:41Podcast and like. What in the hell did you just like. I had no I did during the pop guess but I said life.
2:12:47Words come out that just aren't should not be there. It's called misspeaking and.
2:12:51I I'm I'm baffled as anyone else when I hear myself say it if you had told me what I had just that I heard then.
2:12:58But anyway. It's terrible. I love how many people. Tweeted me over the last week. Thinking that.
2:13:04When I said X bone repeatedly last week that was serious. How long if you listen to me you don't get that.
2:13:12I joke about stuff like that sometimes come what I like the. I like about X. Bone.
2:13:16Is that I don't think like the gamer community and internet fan base a large has decided whether X.
2:13:23Bone is derogatory or like a pet names like a term of endearment.
2:13:28Or even just like like well that just become the way everyone says it's so far I think it's both.
2:13:33Some people say it to try to be like you know. To put down the X. Box.
2:13:37And I think a lot of fans say it as a term of endearment and I just wanna see how it comes out in the end
2:13:42and that being mostly a term I think I'll end up mostly being a term of endearment.
2:13:46It is a lot easier and faster and unambiguous to say that the decision the else.
2:13:50And less stupid than the third act like one. Right I mean it's a stupid.
2:13:56Microsoft gave it such a stupid real name that we have to come up with stupid alternatives. You know good old sunny.
2:14:02They put a number after it. They make the number bigger. He wanted titles for I pass out.
2:14:09Yeah let's let's wrap
2:14:10and why he was so tired you know you one of those jobs are they work you like a dog AC doing how long the labor
2:14:15Bergeron I don't know you're in the same time zone as us right. Yes Yes I'm just I'm old. I go to bed early and.
2:14:23You people with your children you know we can't get on the grill I get on the mike until nine o'clock I'm usually
2:14:28crawling in bed at ten. I'm old. The case you should take over as an old man. Crawling into bed and. Yeah.
2:14:34Now I'm not arguing I didn't think there was ever really. I didn't think I was ever up for grabs.
2:14:39Penny wise pound foolish is pretty good. I think that you it so good.
2:14:43That's is also being involved man with an old man phrasing I go out and play with my hope and stick later. But it.
2:14:53But it can never get real thing like the people actually do that.
2:14:57The hope is that was a real thing but since I'm some dental I was I was referencing the disingenuous joke. It.
2:15:04They have yet.
2:15:04I think they had the of the first time I remember what the second sense is Monte Burns was like a kid
2:15:09and he was playing with anyway. This is a really old phrase like well if I'm fine with that.
2:15:15It's good because it works because we because not only I think I think you actually said that exact phrase during the
2:15:20Penny Arcade discussion. I did. But you know. It's so much about.
2:15:25Penny Arcade like it's that or they would think about. Well.