00:00:00 ◼ ► You're under some fall. OK sounds great. There's hardly any is there any kind of not really. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/0">TS</a>]
00:00:09 ◼ ► Yeah I'm lumping something that probably isn't by the strictest definition follow up in the follow up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/9">TS</a>]
00:00:15 ◼ ► and that is after our discussion about what comes after Objective C. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/15">TS</a>]
00:00:21 ◼ ► A lot of people have come out of the woodwork [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/21">TS</a>]
00:00:23 ◼ ► and said hey guys have you seen this wall from language thing that's going to be the next big thing that will replace [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/23">TS</a>]
00:00:28 ◼ ► Objective C. and It's not. So anything else it is pretty cool. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/28">TS</a>]
00:00:34 ◼ ► Oh it's cause hell I have no idea what I would use a floor if anything I think I'm not smart enough to use it actually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/34">TS</a>]
00:00:40 ◼ ► but every day all kidding aside it is very very cool but it's serving a completely different purpose [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/40">TS</a>]
00:00:46 ◼ ► and I don't see a mechanism by which that's going to be the way in which we build apps [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/46">TS</a>]
00:00:52 ◼ ► and of course somebody will will say to us. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/52">TS</a>]
00:00:55 ◼ ► Oh well but didn't you watch the whole video they had sliders on there another U.I. Elements and blah blah blah. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/55">TS</a>]
00:01:00 ◼ ► Yeah but that's not that's not really the point. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/60">TS</a>]
00:01:03 ◼ ► You know it's not it's not the sort of thing you'd build an app with it's the sort of thing that you would do some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/63">TS</a>]
00:01:08 ◼ ► really impressive and very cool data computations with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/68">TS</a>]
00:01:14 ◼ ► but for some heat build an app with the the money you don't have to use Mathematica in school I did [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/74">TS</a>]
00:01:19 ◼ ► and I've long since forgotten all that I don't know I use Matlab I'm sorry about that Mathematica I think I was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/79">TS</a>]
00:01:26 ◼ ► and still more from Mathematica is to him the max is the Stallman basically like separating this crazy person who made [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/86">TS</a>]
00:01:36 ◼ ► an environment where he can where he can sort of fill his dreams of computation has just added to it over the years. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/96">TS</a>]
00:01:43 ◼ ► Only well for me as a little bit more successful a little bit more determined and not quite as afflicted with R.S.I. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/103">TS</a>]
00:01:49 ◼ ► and They hired a bunch of other people to do things that I had a business that made money to let him indulges his taste [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/109">TS</a>]
00:01:56 ◼ ► to this type of thing so he's built this amazing thing for him self that works the way they want to. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/116">TS</a>]
00:02:01 ◼ ► That is basically like start with Mathematica and just expand out to fill the universe [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/121">TS</a>]
00:02:04 ◼ ► but it it's I'm going to tell you about this like oh it's just a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/124">TS</a>]
00:02:10 ◼ ► and insert word here because it's not just a anything like what it does is very impressive it's like it's a life's work [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/130">TS</a>]
00:02:15 ◼ ► and it is very interesting in a present [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/135">TS</a>]
00:02:18 ◼ ► but I think it's an application an application that you can program with more than a programming language regardless of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/138">TS</a>]
00:02:26 ◼ ► what you think it can apply to everything and that demo shows that it's good at doing the stuff in that demo. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/146">TS</a>]
00:02:33 ◼ ► But Apple of course would need a language it's going to doing the things that I'm going to do and what is happening. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/153">TS</a>]
00:02:37 ◼ ► Do they need to let developers write applications they need to write applications themselves [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/157">TS</a>]
00:02:41 ◼ ► and they need to write in the US and for all of those purposes this language is not useful. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/161">TS</a>]
00:02:46 ◼ ► Right and you don't don't let me you know kind of shrugging it off as a replacement for Objective C. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/166">TS</a>]
00:02:53 ◼ ► To take away from the fact that you're absolutely right it is unbelievably impressive that things can be done with it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/173">TS</a>]
00:02:58 ◼ ► but it is serving an entirely different purpose [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/178">TS</a>]
00:03:00 ◼ ► and that's the only point I'm trying to make I'm not going be writing the next you know Instapaper killer. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/180">TS</a>]
00:03:08 ◼ ► Yeah one of the aspects that it has going against it as the fart computer languages that leans heavily on it like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/188">TS</a>]
00:03:15 ◼ ► like in the sort of cloud of what are you closer to that sort of start grouping towards the math side of things while [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/195">TS</a>]
00:03:22 ◼ ► always very interesting and powerful tend not to. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/202">TS</a>]
00:03:26 ◼ ► Thus far I mean doesn't mean it can never happen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/206">TS</a>]
00:03:28 ◼ ► but so far the ones that tend to be more math like have not caught on as much as the ones that are less math like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/208">TS</a>]
00:03:34 ◼ ► and you know I don't know why that is the only you know for example Haskell as another of those languages that looks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/214">TS</a>]
00:03:40 ◼ ► more like you're doing math or is more math like are you even sort of like Lisp kind of sort of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/220">TS</a>]
00:03:47 ◼ ► and this definitely is towards the math side I mean it's all intervals with it like language with all the symbolics I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/227">TS</a>]
00:03:54 ◼ ► mean start from Mathematica now going to be math. But yet so far. Language is like that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/234">TS</a>]
00:04:00 ◼ ► I haven't caught on with the masses no matter how cool they are for the people who use them for the things they're good [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/240">TS</a>]
00:04:05 ◼ ► One problem I think I'd have trying to trying to use this for anything is that kind of similar in this one only one way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/245">TS</a>]
00:04:15 ◼ ► I think it would be hard for me to get started into this and to even know the kinds of things I could do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/255">TS</a>]
00:04:22 ◼ ► and you know you can do so much and in that way it's pretty unfocused. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/262">TS</a>]
00:04:29 ◼ ► It's very broad and you're presented with like here's here's this shell basically this command shell [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/269">TS</a>]
00:04:35 ◼ ► and this interactive prompt you can do whatever you want with but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/275">TS</a>]
00:04:40 ◼ ► and like the demos that he was showing off in the video look amazing really cool I don't know that is really how useful [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/280">TS</a>]
00:04:46 ◼ ► it would be for me but they are still amazingly cool. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/286">TS</a>]
00:04:48 ◼ ► But I was looking at the kinds of syntax he was using the kinds of commands using the kind of structures he was using [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/288">TS</a>]
00:04:54 ◼ ► and I don't even know where I would begin with something like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/294">TS</a>]
00:04:58 ◼ ► and I had a same problem ever using will from Alpha as well where every time I've tried to go from Alpha I've I've [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/298">TS</a>]
00:05:04 ◼ ► tried phrasing things in a certain way and every I never guessed the correct syntax and never does what I want [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/304">TS</a>]
00:05:10 ◼ ► and I can tell there's a lot there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/310">TS</a>]
00:05:13 ◼ ► but it's really hard just to get started it's really hard to know like OK what can I do here [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/313">TS</a>]
00:05:21 ◼ ► I think like a list I think the language itself is probably super simple I figured only a few things that exist you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/321">TS</a>]
00:05:26 ◼ ► know the royal like tuples in some sense X. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/326">TS</a>]
00:05:29 ◼ ► and a couple other symbolic things to write math in ASCII to convert it into symbol representations that is the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/329">TS</a>]
00:05:37 ◼ ► but the language is pointless like if you look at the big paging through those page after page a little rectangle [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/337">TS</a>]
00:05:43 ◼ ► underneath one of those has a vocabulary which is basically like a library. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/343">TS</a>]
00:05:46 ◼ ► You know I wonder what functions can I call what things can I type that's not part of the language per se. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/346">TS</a>]
00:05:51 ◼ ► None of those are key words like if and you know the loops and function declarations like the language syntactic loop. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/351">TS</a>]
00:06:00 ◼ ► Very simple to its discredit I think it would be both be very cumbersome to do anything remotely complicated [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/360">TS</a>]
00:06:06 ◼ ► but the whole the power of the thing is look at all these basically libraries that we have look at all the different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/366">TS</a>]
00:06:11 ◼ ► functions we have to look at what the options of those functions are look at how those functions can be composed with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/371">TS</a>]
00:06:16 ◼ ► each other and so it's it's kind of weird to call it a language other you know it's more like an application [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/376">TS</a>]
00:06:23 ◼ ► or a set of libraries in the set of what we look huge like that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/383">TS</a>]
00:06:26 ◼ ► Surely there is some function that does the thing that you want to have the operas that you want [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/386">TS</a>]
00:06:30 ◼ ► and if you can't find it exactly you can build it by composing it out of other really powerful pieces [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/390">TS</a>]
00:06:33 ◼ ► and put it all on a web front end and get it through web services A.P.I. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/393">TS</a>]
00:06:37 ◼ ► Lots of cool stuff in there but I think it's more like an application it's more like an A.P.I. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/397">TS</a>]
00:06:45 ◼ ► Then it is a language and whatever it is it's not to write their operating systems for phones or desktops. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/405">TS</a>]
00:06:52 ◼ ► So I had the same thought that this would be in a potentially extremely powerful add on or you know processing unit. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/412">TS</a>]
00:07:01 ◼ ► But I guess like a dynamic library for first something in Objective see if you could get some sort of interface into it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/421">TS</a>]
00:07:09 ◼ ► but I don't see it replacing Objective C. or Anything like that. Very cool though very very cool. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/429">TS</a>]
00:07:15 ◼ ► So what else is going on. You want talk about this as a sell bug go to fail. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/435">TS</a>]
00:07:23 ◼ ► All right so moving on now it's getting ready to take aim premium [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/443">TS</a>]
00:07:29 ◼ ► and I love the good to fail dot com was actually available not for long [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/449">TS</a>]
00:07:34 ◼ ► and it was useful once it was once it became a thing. I don't know if I have all that much to say about this. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/454">TS</a>]
00:07:42 ◼ ► I'm not sure I concur Marco with your tinfoil hat reasoning. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/462">TS</a>]
00:07:47 ◼ ► This was a deliberate act happy for you to convince me that I am wrong but I'm not saying it is it wasn't deliberate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/467">TS</a>]
00:07:55 ◼ ► but it to me didn't recall of being deliberate like you seem to think you want to. A recap. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/475">TS</a>]
00:08:00 ◼ ► What leads you to believe that I'm sure I mean I think I'm not saying this was definitely an N.S.A. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/480">TS</a>]
00:08:12 ◼ ► or Security breach where you know my my theory that I think is is potential [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/492">TS</a>]
00:08:19 ◼ ► and I don't even know if I would say the most likely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/499">TS</a>]
00:08:22 ◼ ► but I think it's reasonable to look at these events that this one a duplicated line was inserted into this as a cell is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/502">TS</a>]
00:08:36 ◼ ► or a common name checking Paro than it it was that the step the checks of the common names match [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/516">TS</a>]
00:08:43 ◼ ► I believe so it was some part of the verification step so that you can make sure that the S.L. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/523">TS</a>]
00:08:51 ◼ ► Server that you're talking to is who they say they are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/531">TS</a>]
00:08:54 ◼ ► and not I'm in the middle who you know like mannitol attacks I mean even qualified to explain them in all their you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/534">TS</a>]
00:09:01 ◼ ► know everything properly but somebody who could like intercept your network traffic and I a spear [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/541">TS</a>]
00:09:09 ◼ ► or a wireless router in a coffee shop [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/549">TS</a>]
00:09:11 ◼ ► or whatever the case may be your school your workplace somebody who could intercept your government somebody who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/551">TS</a>]
00:09:16 ◼ ► intercept your your network traffic normally as a cell's designed if everything's done right so that to so that the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/556">TS</a>]
00:09:25 ◼ ► server and you can talk securely and you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/565">TS</a>]
00:09:28 ◼ ► when you connect to the server you can verify it through the series of cryptography steps you can verify that the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/568">TS</a>]
00:09:33 ◼ ► server you're talking to really is who they say they are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/573">TS</a>]
00:09:35 ◼ ► and nobody else in the middle is listening in a way that they can decode your data. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/575">TS</a>]
00:09:40 ◼ ► This this bug broke that assumption. And so that somebody could have been listening in and breaking S.S.L. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/580">TS</a>]
00:09:47 ◼ ► and Watching your traffic and the operating system was just skipping that verification step or part of it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/587">TS</a>]
00:09:53 ◼ ► So the way this was inserted in the file and the file. There are open source. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/593">TS</a>]
00:10:01 ◼ ► Not every revision is open source but you can see like the version that shipped in ten [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/601">TS</a>]
00:10:07 ◼ ► and the version that shipped in ten nine and you can see the difference there. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/607">TS</a>]
00:10:11 ◼ ► So the difference not entirely convincing because there could have been a lot a lot of intermediate revisions between [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/611">TS</a>]
00:10:18 ◼ ► you don't know what happened between those two all you see is the getting point and ending point. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/618">TS</a>]
00:10:23 ◼ ► But if you look at the Do Not a lot in the file has changed between the two releases. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/623">TS</a>]
00:10:29 ◼ ► There is this context parameter to some of the security calls that was removed. Basically it was at the A.P.I. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/629">TS</a>]
00:10:36 ◼ ► I just changed mine early so that you know this one argument and I want to say or something like that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/636">TS</a>]
00:10:41 ◼ ► So most not even some of the calls had this very this very basic change to them that just like remove this argument. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/641">TS</a>]
00:10:49 ◼ ► There are almost no other changes in the entire function [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/649">TS</a>]
00:10:52 ◼ ► and then this one extra goto failed line inserted in the middle [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/652">TS</a>]
00:10:59 ◼ ► and so if you look at this if you just look at the death looks pretty bad like it looks like wow there like no edits [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/659">TS</a>]
00:11:05 ◼ ► happen in the surrounding lines between these two releases. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/665">TS</a>]
00:11:09 ◼ ► Just this one line was inserted kind of the middle of nowhere and it looks pretty bad. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/669">TS</a>]
00:11:15 ◼ ► Of course you know that said though you can't rely only on that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/675">TS</a>]
00:11:18 ◼ ► I think what what worries me and what makes me think that this could be this could have been the Ferias [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/678">TS</a>]
00:11:27 ◼ ► and I want to say to my tweets I don't necessarily believe that that Apple itself you know officially knew about this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/687">TS</a>]
00:11:33 ◼ ► or introduce this intentionally or was working with the N.S.A. I think it's much more likely seeing how the N.S.A. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/693">TS</a>]
00:11:39 ◼ ► Works knowing that they have a program where the New York Times reported hard to find the link [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/699">TS</a>]
00:11:43 ◼ ► but I believe it said they had an annual budget of two hundred fifty million dollars to go do things exactly like this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/703">TS</a>]
00:11:51 ◼ ► Will kind of get to an engineer who works who works at one of the tech companies or they will. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/711">TS</a>]
00:12:00 ◼ ► In standards bodies trying to argue for different standards to be subtly weakened or have have these back to just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/720">TS</a>]
00:12:09 ◼ ► or the people who work in tech companies will you know become an essay. I don't know. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/729">TS</a>]
00:12:15 ◼ ► Supporters Asians whatever they're called. So we know that that kind of thing happens. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/735">TS</a>]
00:12:21 ◼ ► We know all that from the Edward Snowden leaks and from these from the associated important common sense [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/741">TS</a>]
00:12:24 ◼ ► and all of that you know that's that's not that's not like artifice [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/744">TS</a>]
00:12:28 ◼ ► and tinfoil happing that think that kind of thing does happen. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/748">TS</a>]
00:12:33 ◼ ► And so for this bug to be inserted in this file at this time and so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/753">TS</a>]
00:12:38 ◼ ► and again another little piece of circumstantial evidence this bug was inserted in I believe it was fall of two [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/758">TS</a>]
00:12:46 ◼ ► thousand and twelve. It was like a it was the month before. One of the N.S.A. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/766">TS</a>]
00:12:51 ◼ ► Slide decks claimed that Apple had joined the prison program in some way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/771">TS</a>]
00:12:57 ◼ ► and that timing is really suspect as well so you can look at this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/777">TS</a>]
00:13:01 ◼ ► and we don't know yet at least we don't know what happened and we probably will never know what happened. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/781">TS</a>]
00:13:06 ◼ ► It could have been an innocent mistake an innocent you know blind patient of a buffer or a weird merge artifact [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/786">TS</a>]
00:13:13 ◼ ► when the files are merged. Who knows right. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/793">TS</a>]
00:13:16 ◼ ► You know we can't tell exactly but normally [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/796">TS</a>]
00:13:20 ◼ ► when you try to rule out a kind of Farias tinfoil hat conspiracy theory kind of thing you do it by saying well the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/800">TS</a>]
00:13:26 ◼ ► simpler more likely explanation is honest reason X. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/806">TS</a>]
00:13:31 ◼ ► and I think in this case looking at the environment we're in looking at the kinds of things that we now know go on with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/811">TS</a>]
00:13:37 ◼ ► the N.S.A. and What they do with tech companies. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/817">TS</a>]
00:13:40 ◼ ► And you look at exactly I mean for a one line bug like this this is a hell of a line to take. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/820">TS</a>]
00:13:49 ◼ ► Like if you look like what I did in the way it did it was so subtle it was subtle enough. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/829">TS</a>]
00:13:55 ◼ ► If you think about it it's perfect. It's subtle enough that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/835">TS</a>]
00:14:00 ◼ ► It would pass a lot of any kind of internal review they had [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/840">TS</a>]
00:14:03 ◼ ► and we can talk about that they probably had insufficient review and sufficient tests [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/843">TS</a>]
00:14:07 ◼ ► but any kind of internal review it would it might it might skip by because it looks it's it blends in. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/847">TS</a>]
00:14:15 ◼ ► It's not obvious it's not even obvious that it is a bug once or even once you spot it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/855">TS</a>]
00:14:20 ◼ ► You kind of have to notice and oh wait a minute like you think about it for a second. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/860">TS</a>]
00:14:25 ◼ ► and it could be explained away if somebody was caught inserting it it can be explained away by saying Oh I must've hit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/865">TS</a>]
00:14:33 ◼ ► you know hit paste wrong or merged wrong so there's like a plausible explanation if you get caught and it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/873">TS</a>]
00:14:39 ◼ ► and it's exactly at the right point where it wasn't breaking all S.S.L. It wasn't making all S.S.L. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/879">TS</a>]
00:14:46 ◼ ► Validate but is making this one particular class of thing validate that the N.S.A. Has been known to do so. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/886">TS</a>]
00:14:55 ◼ ► It's just a little too convenient in so many of these ways. The timing the kind of thing it is. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/895">TS</a>]
00:15:01 ◼ ► The perfection of like exactly the right part of the file to cause a very convenient backdoor for the N.S.A. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/901">TS</a>]
00:15:08 ◼ ► and In a way that looks really subtle and hard to find and hard to blame for what you do find it because then they can. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/908">TS</a>]
00:15:16 ◼ ► I'm sure they can look at their version history and they can see which employee in sort of that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/916">TS</a>]
00:15:19 ◼ ► but again it's there's a plausible reason. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/919">TS</a>]
00:15:21 ◼ ► Oh it was much of a mistake during the merger some might that you know so it's just a little too convenient to be a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/921">TS</a>]
00:15:28 ◼ ► dumb honest mistake in given the given the context given the time it happened. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/928">TS</a>]
00:15:33 ◼ ► What it did the results it had and what we now know about what our government does. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/933">TS</a>]
00:15:39 ◼ ► So that's why I think again like I wouldn't say that it's definitely the N.S.A. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/939">TS</a>]
00:15:45 ◼ ► but I would say it would be naive to brush it off and say Oh it probably wasn't that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/945">TS</a>]
00:15:50 ◼ ► I think the chances are better than that that it was that you know like I can't really argue with any of that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/950">TS</a>]
00:16:00 ◼ ► How I guess I just want to believe that people aren't jerks like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/960">TS</a>]
00:16:04 ◼ ► and that our government doesn't do things like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/964">TS</a>]
00:16:07 ◼ ► but to be honest that's me to keep my head my head in the sand so I don't John what do you think about all that for the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/967">TS</a>]
00:16:14 ◼ ► timing thing I think that just is reasonably explained by saying the N.S.A. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/974">TS</a>]
00:16:21 ◼ ► Knew that this bug was in there and joining the program basically means the N.S.A. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/981">TS</a>]
00:16:25 ◼ ► Now has the capability to intercept traffic to Apple devices because of this bug that it knows about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/985">TS</a>]
00:16:29 ◼ ► and how would they know about the bug well through its own testing through trying to do man [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/989">TS</a>]
00:16:34 ◼ ► and then all attacks perhaps having someone working at Apple who look at the code before its release to tell them of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/994">TS</a>]
00:16:39 ◼ ► this isn't there. So that would explain the timing and that doesn't require the N.S.A. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/999">TS</a>]
00:16:43 ◼ ► To have caused the bug to be entered in any way. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1003">TS</a>]
00:16:47 ◼ ► So the timing I think of the wash for it if I had to put money on it I would bet that it's a merge error [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1007">TS</a>]
00:16:54 ◼ ► and it was accidental and that doesn't mean the N.S.A. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1014">TS</a>]
00:16:57 ◼ ► Wasn't exploiting it to do what they do because it seems like they knew about it based on the timing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1017">TS</a>]
00:17:03 ◼ ► and that they knew about it I'm sure they would be exploiting it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1023">TS</a>]
00:17:07 ◼ ► The reason I think is a merger is because I don't think it's all that subtle I think if they were going at the N.S.A. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1027">TS</a>]
00:17:12 ◼ ► We're going to intentionally plant on like this they would do it in a less discoverable way because once a disco is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1032">TS</a>]
00:17:17 ◼ ► discovered to get patched and the N.S.A.'s goal is not to be discovered. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1037">TS</a>]
00:17:22 ◼ ► This is not a you know it's if you glance at it you might miss it you know casually visually inspecting it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1042">TS</a>]
00:17:28 ◼ ► But it's a type of thing that will be found both in terms of the code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1048">TS</a>]
00:17:32 ◼ ► and in terms of the massive effect it has like if they planted one you would hope they would plant one that isn't so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1052">TS</a>]
00:17:38 ◼ ► easy to find because this is like a I can spoof a certificate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1058">TS</a>]
00:17:42 ◼ ► and it just accept everything like except any garbage it skips that entire Like if I carefully constructed a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1062">TS</a>]
00:17:48 ◼ ► certificate with a particular thing early you know like it's not exploding in subtlety it's the type of thing it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1068">TS</a>]
00:17:53 ◼ ► amazing that it went underscored for as long as it did because of apparent Apple's apparent total lack of testing of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1073">TS</a>]
00:18:01 ◼ ► So that I think argues against it being intentional [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1081">TS</a>]
00:18:03 ◼ ► and the thing about plausible deniability this is the really creepy part is that I can imagine that Apple has automated [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1083">TS</a>]
00:18:10 ◼ ► merge tools for bringing bills together so if you were to find a commit that did this I I would imagine there's a good [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1090">TS</a>]
00:18:16 ◼ ► chance that it could be attributable to an automated merge too and then how do you blame. Right. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1096">TS</a>]
00:18:21 ◼ ► Bio phone was really clever and set up the series of dominoes such that they knew and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1101">TS</a>]
00:18:24 ◼ ► when we did this merger that merge and that merger would mess something up. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1104">TS</a>]
00:18:27 ◼ ► And if the only validation of a marriage is a human being visually inspecting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1107">TS</a>]
00:18:31 ◼ ► and signing off well yes you know in this. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1111">TS</a>]
00:18:34 ◼ ► Or if the validation emerges it compiles [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1114">TS</a>]
00:18:36 ◼ ► and passes are apparently clearly inadequate test suite then that will let it go here too. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1116">TS</a>]
00:18:41 ◼ ► So I think we all agree that it's it is entirely entirely possible that the end as I did of the government is because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1121">TS</a>]
00:18:49 ◼ ► like Marta said that something this is something they do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1129">TS</a>]
00:18:52 ◼ ► but I think this is a this would be below the level of competence and sneakiness that I would expect from them. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1132">TS</a>]
00:18:59 ◼ ► So I give it a less than fifty percent chance that it was done intentionally. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1139">TS</a>]
00:19:03 ◼ ► More than fifty percent chance that it was done unintentionally at almost a hundred percent chance of the N.S.A. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1143">TS</a>]
00:19:07 ◼ ► Both knew about it and exploit it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1147">TS</a>]
00:19:10 ◼ ► I mean you know overall I agree John like I agree that that these things like all of these factors could be explained [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1150">TS</a>]
00:19:18 ◼ ► away in reasonable you know plausible explanations. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1158">TS</a>]
00:19:24 ◼ ► when you add it all together the end again like it's sort of happened a year ago before we knew so much about you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1164">TS</a>]
00:19:31 ◼ ► from the Snowden leaks before we knew all this stuff a year ago I would have looked at this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1171">TS</a>]
00:19:36 ◼ ► and thought oh well it's like somebody made a stupid mistake. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1176">TS</a>]
00:19:39 ◼ ► But now that we know that this stuff happens and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1179">TS</a>]
00:19:43 ◼ ► and because of how convenient it would be you know yeah you're right that that was you know disabling his entire steps [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1183">TS</a>]
00:19:49 ◼ ► of S.S.L. Verification are pretty handsome. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1189">TS</a>]
00:19:53 ◼ ► However you know they got it through and it was there for over a year right. So. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1193">TS</a>]
00:20:00 ◼ ► I think I'm sure they don't just try one thing and maybe the other things they tried got caught or didn't chip [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1200">TS</a>]
00:20:13 ◼ ► Sleep well tonight or are still there and and you know I'm sure they don't just leave themselves one option you know. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1213">TS</a>]
00:20:21 ◼ ► So again I think by by looking at just the the fairly you know broad strokes of this bug used I wouldn't for the same [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1221">TS</a>]
00:20:32 ◼ ► reason that you wouldn't rule out the timing because there's you know there's always like I wouldn't I wouldn't rule I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1232">TS</a>]
00:20:38 ◼ ► wouldn't rule out the possibility of I'm doing this just because of how fairly hamfest it is because in many other ways [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1238">TS</a>]
00:20:45 ◼ ► it's quite elegant in how innocent it looks and how hard how hard it was to catch [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1245">TS</a>]
00:20:52 ◼ ► and I'm sure they tried many things and some of them are handwritten and some of them are really clever and the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1252">TS</a>]
00:20:58 ◼ ► and the really clever ones maybe didn't work for me they're still there but this one we happen to find. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1258">TS</a>]
00:21:02 ◼ ► Well none of the ruling it as if you're over fifty percent for thinking it was intentional and I'm under. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1262">TS</a>]
00:21:07 ◼ ► But that's basically it we're all around the middle you know. Yeah and I'm like I'm not too far over fifty percent. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1267">TS</a>]
00:21:13 ◼ ► I might say sixty percent you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1273">TS</a>]
00:21:15 ◼ ► but normally conspiracy theories really well there are just too many coincidences to believe your conspiracy theory. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1275">TS</a>]
00:21:22 ◼ ► You know too many Clintons would have to happen. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1282">TS</a>]
00:21:24 ◼ ► You know this I think it's I think it's subtly the other direction it's theirs. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1284">TS</a>]
00:21:29 ◼ ► You have to ignore a lot of a lot of Clinton and says that did that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1289">TS</a>]
00:21:32 ◼ ► or the case to believe that this was totally innocent. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1292">TS</a>]
00:21:36 ◼ ► So you think Apple will ever say anything publicly about the investigation that undoubtedly is taking place inside the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1296">TS</a>]
00:21:44 ◼ ► company to determine the cause of this. Oh I really doubt that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1304">TS</a>]
00:21:48 ◼ ► And the second question is will they use their disclosure canary thing you know like where the previous disclosure they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1308">TS</a>]
00:21:55 ◼ ► said we have not been contacted by government agencies to blah blah blah blah blah for you with the word. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1315">TS</a>]
00:22:00 ◼ ► But as someone in the chat room a look at up but they put that in there so they can so that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1320">TS</a>]
00:22:04 ◼ ► when you see that message disappear you will know that they have been contacted by the government told not to say [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1324">TS</a>]
00:22:13 ◼ ► So that's I guess the thing we can actually watch [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1333">TS</a>]
00:22:15 ◼ ► or that's actionable The next time they do one of those security disclosure statements. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1335">TS</a>]
00:22:19 ◼ ► If the whatever canary statement is not there again we can't directly connected to that incident [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1339">TS</a>]
00:22:23 ◼ ► but at least you know for example if we see the statement again we'll know that Apple is investigated internally [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1343">TS</a>]
00:22:30 ◼ ► and that I don't see if it was the government [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1350">TS</a>]
00:22:34 ◼ ► and they have been forced by the government to disclose it was the government. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1354">TS</a>]
00:22:38 ◼ ► I don't see why they wouldn't make that public because the base will be saying hey in essence you know our government [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1358">TS</a>]
00:22:46 ◼ ► You know they'd be angry they'd talk to Congress about it all sorts of stuff like that if that if they determine that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1366">TS</a>]
00:22:52 ◼ ► to be the case but if it was just an internal error they probably won't say anything [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1372">TS</a>]
00:22:57 ◼ ► and if they're little canary statement is still there. Then we also know that N.S.A. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1377">TS</a>]
00:23:01 ◼ ► Is not the one making them not say anything she wants all to the Canary statement was more about getting user data. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1381">TS</a>]
00:23:10 ◼ ► I thought that the canary statement was something about how we you know we haven't been [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1390">TS</a>]
00:23:14 ◼ ► or we haven't received any requests from the N.S.A. To do crap. We didn't want to do. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1394">TS</a>]
00:23:19 ◼ ► I know but this will be a request to you're not allowed to say anything about the N.S.A. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1399">TS</a>]
00:23:24 ◼ ► Mole that you discovered in your organization like that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1404">TS</a>]
00:23:28 ◼ ► I guess you're right it's different categories thing like we've never given them user data and blah blah blah [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1408">TS</a>]
00:23:32 ◼ ► but it was it was fairly wide ranging statement [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1412">TS</a>]
00:23:36 ◼ ► and like they can't they can't to state what they may be forced not to say anything about it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1416">TS</a>]
00:23:42 ◼ ► but I would imagine they would remove that they would just simply not put that statement in there because it's not an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1422">TS</a>]
00:23:47 ◼ ► admission of anything it's just a cell phone of the Khmer you just remove it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1427">TS</a>]
00:23:50 ◼ ► and that's their sort of signal to the outside world that government people have come [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1430">TS</a>]
00:23:55 ◼ ► and told us not to say anything and we can legally just simply not say anything and you can interpret. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1435">TS</a>]
00:24:00 ◼ ► As a as a sign that we're being told not to say something about something. Yeah maybe but it is two different things. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1440">TS</a>]
00:24:07 ◼ ► It says you know I have it here the very last line of this is thing from Mattapan Serino the very last line of Apple's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1447">TS</a>]
00:24:14 ◼ ► report today states quote Apple has never received an order under section two fifteen of the USA Patriot Act we would [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1454">TS</a>]
00:24:20 ◼ ► expect to challenge such an order if served on us which to me sounds like something separate than what we're talking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1460">TS</a>]
00:24:28 ◼ ► Well I mean that's a look at what was Section two fifteen of the Patriot Act says doing a very good actor Paul because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1468">TS</a>]
00:24:33 ◼ ► the government can do whatever the hell you have no rights and some something some sort of vague language as broad [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1473">TS</a>]
00:24:39 ◼ ► but I mean that's all we've got like they can go back in time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1479">TS</a>]
00:24:42 ◼ ► and put in a canary about what we've never been infiltrated by the N.S.A. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1482">TS</a>]
00:24:45 ◼ ► Never added bugs or code intentionally [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1485">TS</a>]
00:24:48 ◼ ► and honestly I don't know how they would ever determine it is like Marco I said if the best case scenario that it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1488">TS</a>]
00:24:53 ◼ ► actually is an individual developer What are they going to waterboard to God like knowledge on a stake. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1493">TS</a>]
00:24:59 ◼ ► They can ask him did you put that there intentionally [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1499">TS</a>]
00:25:01 ◼ ► but if you did intentionally of course he's not going to tell you that he did and you can't force him to tell you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1501">TS</a>]
00:25:06 ◼ ► and you just you'll just never know because it is one hundred percent plausible as a bug like people are abuzz all the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1506">TS</a>]
00:25:12 ◼ ► Just you know the winds get pasted twice like Marcus that like there is no literally no way to force someone to. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1512">TS</a>]
00:25:19 ◼ ► You'll never know that I thought you could talk to him to death and he dies and he never said that he did [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1519">TS</a>]
00:25:25 ◼ ► and you still don't know whether he was lying or not let me tell you a story [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1525">TS</a>]
00:25:29 ◼ ► and then maybe Marky can tell us about some sweet in my first job I wrote. Bingo. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1529">TS</a>]
00:25:36 ◼ ► Biggest slot machines which is a weird and odd story that's not worth explaining right now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1536">TS</a>]
00:25:42 ◼ ► but this was done in DOS using the Wacom people's past compiler [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1542">TS</a>]
00:25:47 ◼ ► and because it was done in DOS The bugging in the traditional sense wasn't really a thing. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1547">TS</a>]
00:25:54 ◼ ► So you basically had to put out a bunch of print out a bunch of log statements and so on and so forth. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1554">TS</a>]
00:25:58 ◼ ► Well the machines. That we built in the software that we built. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1558">TS</a>]
00:26:02 ◼ ► Basically it had a menu and then a series of different slant Slot Machine Games [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1562">TS</a>]
00:26:08 ◼ ► and what we were noticing all of a sudden is that after some arbitrary amount of time of going into a game you go into [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1568">TS</a>]
00:26:15 ◼ ► them and you go on to the game going to them and you go to the games on the menu at like thirty forty fifty times. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1575">TS</a>]
00:26:20 ◼ ► All of a sudden you get a hard crash and we couldn't figure out what it was and we had some really really good C. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1580">TS</a>]
00:26:28 ◼ ► Plus plus developers there the team at that point was only twenty people. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1588">TS</a>]
00:26:31 ◼ ► But there are some really smart guys there now I'm straight out of college so I don't know what crap I'm doing. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1591">TS</a>]
00:26:36 ◼ ► But after a while it was on me to try to figure out and a co-worker actually to try to figure out. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1596">TS</a>]
00:26:45 ◼ ► Where's this crash coming from why is it happening [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1605">TS</a>]
00:26:48 ◼ ► and you know some of my room much more experience much better coworkers had looked through diffs they'd look through [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1608">TS</a>]
00:26:53 ◼ ► check ins nobody could figure out what it was and eventually I figured it out I can't recall if I just spotted it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1613">TS</a>]
00:27:00 ◼ ► or if I looked through the version history of some of all the files that have been changed lately [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1620">TS</a>]
00:27:06 ◼ ► but it ended up being was a fall through in a switch statement and in the switch statement [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1626">TS</a>]
00:27:14 ◼ ► and in in each case we were instantiating an object that was fairly big I forget exactly what it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1634">TS</a>]
00:27:21 ◼ ► but is big so what that means is we would create this new object and allocate a bunch of memory for it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1641">TS</a>]
00:27:28 ◼ ► and then there was an accidental fall through that we didn't mean to have and so we would create another one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1648">TS</a>]
00:27:34 ◼ ► and that first object all that memory got leaked and it took us for ever to find it it took it seriously. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1654">TS</a>]
00:27:43 ◼ ► I believe it was two weeks of myself [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1663">TS</a>]
00:27:45 ◼ ► and a co-worker just digging through code for two straight weeks trying to figure out what it was. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1665">TS</a>]
00:27:50 ◼ ► And I bring this up because it looked statically. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1670">TS</a>]
00:27:53 ◼ ► It looked very similar to this go to fail issue there was what appeared on the surface to be. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1673">TS</a>]
00:28:02 ◼ ► and it just so happens that we had forgotten to put the word brake with a semi-colon after it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1682">TS</a>]
00:28:07 ◼ ► We were leaking memory and after thirty to fifty times going back out to the menu. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1687">TS</a>]
00:28:12 ◼ ► That's because the air they've got instruments you wouldn't know that because you couldn't run the little graph that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1692">TS</a>]
00:28:17 ◼ ► shows the memory was in the league. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1697">TS</a>]
00:28:18 ◼ ► You're absolutely right and I know you're slightly being snarky but that is absolutely true [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1698">TS</a>]
00:28:23 ◼ ► and that's part of the reason why I think none of us are necessarily that excited to get rid of a check to see. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1703">TS</a>]
00:28:28 ◼ ► But I bring this up because here was a situation where we had a handful of really good C. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1708">TS</a>]
00:28:33 ◼ ► Post plus developers now we didn't have a lot of process you could say our methodology was not very good [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1713">TS</a>]
00:28:39 ◼ ► but regardless you have a lot of process. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1719">TS</a>]
00:28:41 ◼ ► But nevertheless we had some really bright guys and girls going through the stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1721">TS</a>]
00:28:45 ◼ ► and nobody could find it because it wasn't something that was visually almost a static Lee obvious [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1725">TS</a>]
00:28:52 ◼ ► and I see this as being a very very very similar situation. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1732">TS</a>]
00:28:57 ◼ ► Now just food for thought is examples of language misfeatures that lead to bugs the language you cite is the fall [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1737">TS</a>]
00:29:04 ◼ ► or you need a break statement language misfeature I think in this bug was you know that you can have single single [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1744">TS</a>]
00:29:10 ◼ ► clause conditionals without the braces and then make it slightly less obvious [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1750">TS</a>]
00:29:13 ◼ ► and some people say the language misfeatures the white spaces significant in the by them people tell you others will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1753">TS</a>]
00:29:21 ◼ ► I mean all the talk about whether this is intentional [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1761">TS</a>]
00:29:23 ◼ ► or not like bugs happen all the time that aren't security related to displaying bugs and cause things to crash [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1763">TS</a>]
00:29:30 ◼ ► and the language features do lead to more or fewer bugs [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1770">TS</a>]
00:29:34 ◼ ► and I don't I would love to see some stats on like bugs that are attributable to human error that it could potentially [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1774">TS</a>]
00:29:44 ◼ ► have been influenced by language feature so that the single clause if they had that is probably probably pretty high up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1784">TS</a>]
00:29:50 ◼ ► in any language that allows that type of thing. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1790">TS</a>]
00:29:53 ◼ ► This is just so easy and I feel I put a line underneath it or to indent things wrong in a misleading way. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1793">TS</a>]
00:30:00 ◼ ► The break and the fall through for K. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1800">TS</a>]
00:30:02 ◼ ► Statements for getting the break I mean I can't count how many times I've done that I like it I do it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1802">TS</a>]
00:30:07 ◼ ► You know usually it's so obvious because there's nothing works at all but if you get on like enough [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1807">TS</a>]
00:30:10 ◼ ► and things happen to sort of appear to work you won't notice it because you just write it out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1810">TS</a>]
00:30:15 ◼ ► and the looks is all invented the way you want to be news forgot the put the word on who doesn't forget to put the word [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1815">TS</a>]
00:30:19 ◼ ► that's like a rite of passage when you learn the things you will forget the put in break [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1819">TS</a>]
00:30:25 ◼ ► and you know your things don't work right. Man I found a nasty bug this week in my P.H.P. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1825">TS</a>]
00:30:30 ◼ ► Framework in my in my sort function so I have you know my model class [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1830">TS</a>]
00:30:35 ◼ ► and I have a couple of community model sort functions to do common things and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1835">TS</a>]
00:30:39 ◼ ► and one of them is if you have your your way and P.H.P. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1839">TS</a>]
00:30:44 ◼ ► Arrays are all hashes slash dictionaries it's all like you know arbitrary key to value it can be strings or numbers. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1844">TS</a>]
00:30:52 ◼ ► So the idea is if you have an array of numerically indexed models [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1852">TS</a>]
00:30:55 ◼ ► and you want to do instead be indexed by one of the values on each one like say go ID to object instead of just like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1855">TS</a>]
00:31:02 ◼ ► zero through and add a function to assign the key of each object to be that that property the specified [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1862">TS</a>]
00:31:12 ◼ ► and I hadn't worked on the array in place loops see the problem. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1872">TS</a>]
00:31:17 ◼ ► The speech we have defined semantics for what what the cars trucks allow you to modify the thing you're into writing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1877">TS</a>]
00:31:24 ◼ ► over and place and which ones don't. He's not really P.H.P. You can generally modify things as you read over them. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1884">TS</a>]
00:31:32 ◼ ► Most of the time it usually works. Not reassuring. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1892">TS</a>]
00:31:36 ◼ ► Kind of a problem that I have to say most the time and usually they are. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1896">TS</a>]
00:31:40 ◼ ► But yeah so as a result I was and I'm going through you know going to be in the numeric indexes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1900">TS</a>]
00:31:47 ◼ ► and I would say All right well I have this property value of this one so unset in America index said that it was that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1907">TS</a>]
00:31:53 ◼ ► and set it to the string index. Cool so what happens when the value of one of those things is like what. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1913">TS</a>]
00:32:00 ◼ ► Happens at the value of the one it was previously an idea zero is two then you go to ID one do that your ID to it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1920">TS</a>]
00:32:09 ◼ ► and that one gets on set and so the resulting a ray can clobber certain elements to base an error value [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1929">TS</a>]
00:32:15 ◼ ► and can actually have fewer elements in it than an input of what I was getting I will say you pulled off the first one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1935">TS</a>]
00:32:22 ◼ ► and its id value a seventy seven and you shoved it into seventy seven [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1942">TS</a>]
00:32:26 ◼ ► when you were later on fine years of iterating over seventy seven because the iterations I now see the new entry down [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1946">TS</a>]
00:32:33 ◼ ► but it's a fact that I can't I don't even know that for sure is a problem with self modifying code here [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1953">TS</a>]
00:32:39 ◼ ► and you can in theory get yourself into like an infinite loop of credit where you think his keep getting shoved to the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1959">TS</a>]
00:32:44 ◼ ► end and make a new entry that you then enter eight over the cause and to be shown to the end of the end [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1964">TS</a>]
00:32:48 ◼ ► or sources telling us yes yes it's crazy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1968">TS</a>]
00:32:50 ◼ ► and so yeah that was an obvious like if you looked at the code it looked reasonable legal of course [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1970">TS</a>]
00:32:56 ◼ ► but you know until you thought about it I'm like oh wait a minute [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1976">TS</a>]
00:32:59 ◼ ► and I this was this was a utility function in my framework that's been there for about seven years. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1979">TS</a>]
00:33:06 ◼ ► Like I wonder how many bugs that I don't use a function a lot though I do use it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1986">TS</a>]
00:33:13 ◼ ► and maybe all the time to use it so far I like most of the time it just never it never had a situation so I didn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/1993">TS</a>]
00:33:20 ◼ ► notice it. Yeah that was a problem anyway. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2000">TS</a>]
00:33:24 ◼ ► We're sponsored this week our first Bonsor thirty minutes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2004">TS</a>]
00:33:26 ◼ ► and our first sponsor is picture life now we talked a while back many times about posting your pictures online photo [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2006">TS</a>]
00:33:35 ◼ ► storage photo backups stuff like that so picture life is the one up you need for your photos and videos. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2015">TS</a>]
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00:34:21 ◼ ► and so they have all sorts of cool features they have a deep search it's very very powerful you know use of the face [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2061">TS</a>]
00:34:28 ◼ ► detection all that other stuff is really cool these days. They have apps for the mac apps for i O. S. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2068">TS</a>]
00:34:34 ◼ ► Also even support Windows and Android Android just launched in December and is very quickly coming up to speed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2074">TS</a>]
00:34:40 ◼ ► and you know this company was founded by people who really love those they love creativity and love technology. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2080">TS</a>]
00:34:48 ◼ ► Founders of this include Charles foreman who I actually know. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2088">TS</a>]
00:34:51 ◼ ► Charles foreman of Pop Jacob the heart of Threadless and Nate Westheimer of the New York Tech Meetup I know him too. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2091">TS</a>]
00:34:59 ◼ ► And that is backed by our V.C. Friend that Spark Capital and I know them too they were the main P.C. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2099">TS</a>]
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00:35:23 ◼ ► and if you don't want them to go away like ever pics. Sign up. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2123">TS</a>]
00:35:26 ◼ ► And unlike every book they don't have unlimited storage things over there have a more viable business model of where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2126">TS</a>]
00:35:33 ◼ ► you actually pay for what you use. Yeah it seems that way. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2133">TS</a>]
00:35:36 ◼ ► Also Charles foreman that guy is a machine like member draw something that was the big thing that was like their big [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2136">TS</a>]
00:35:42 ◼ ► but he he had a site before that that I was I was socialized them a bit while he was working on that through David Karp [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2142">TS</a>]
00:35:49 ◼ ► a Tumblr we were all we would go out to dinner a few times here and there and that guy. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2149">TS</a>]
00:35:53 ◼ ► He's incredibly smart and he's just like a coating output machine. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2153">TS</a>]
00:36:00 ◼ ► Like I rarely see anybody be able to produce as much as he does [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2160">TS</a>]
00:36:05 ◼ ► and he really really knows his stuff so I would I would certainly trust us right now to go back for him before the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2165">TS</a>]
00:36:11 ◼ ► sponsor break it would it would be wrong of me not to mention that in Objective C. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2171">TS</a>]
00:36:17 ◼ ► I'm sorry non-objective see I've been writing a check to see today which I'm all confused in C. Sharp. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2177">TS</a>]
00:36:23 ◼ ► There are interesting language features that would prevent both of the bugs that Marc and I are talking about. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2183">TS</a>]
00:36:29 ◼ ► Firstly you can't have a full through in any case in a switch statement unless that case is completely empty. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2189">TS</a>]
00:36:37 ◼ ► So you would literally have one line case one Colin the next line case to call one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2197">TS</a>]
00:36:42 ◼ ► and if there's anything in between without a break statement that's a compiler error [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2202">TS</a>]
00:36:46 ◼ ► and the other thing is if you try to modify pretty much any [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2206">TS</a>]
00:36:49 ◼ ► and numerable collection in place you get a I believe that's a runtime error not a compiler error. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2209">TS</a>]
00:36:56 ◼ ► So that's just really nice ways to protect you from yourself [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2216">TS</a>]
00:36:58 ◼ ► and that I really appreciate that I have to tell you that pro are protective [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2218">TS</a>]
00:37:02 ◼ ► and they think they were just Simla now doing a crawl requires braces on single statement if it doesn't let you do it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2222">TS</a>]
00:37:10 ◼ ► without them. The numbers intentional to avoid this feature because the people who wrote Perl were writing Perl in C. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2230">TS</a>]
00:37:16 ◼ ► and Hated that and there's no switch they principle solve there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2236">TS</a>]
00:37:20 ◼ ► or there is a terrible deprecated one it's part of a sea pen model [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2240">TS</a>]
00:37:23 ◼ ► but counts up our language well as modifying sets if you integrate over the keys of a ray you can actually modify the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2243">TS</a>]
00:37:34 ◼ ► array because they get sick us out of time and doesn't make reference to the thing. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2254">TS</a>]
00:37:40 ◼ ► Unfortunately you get the keys and values that it does the good old P.H.P. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2260">TS</a>]
00:37:43 ◼ ► Way where you know this is madness but there are other reasons not to do. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2263">TS</a>]
00:37:48 ◼ ► They should just deprecate getting the keys and values the same time anyway because I don't go to Perl details [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2268">TS</a>]
00:37:54 ◼ ► but suffice it to say that it's not. They have to give it a value on a per very. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2274">TS</a>]
00:38:00 ◼ ► Basis and that just leads to more madness. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2280">TS</a>]
00:38:02 ◼ ► So that should be deprecated but I think that this is one of those things too like you know the go to fail bug. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2282">TS</a>]
00:38:09 ◼ ► There's actually a compiler warning that warns on unreachable code blocks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2289">TS</a>]
00:38:15 ◼ ► and so if you have a function that contains like you know return zero [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2295">TS</a>]
00:38:19 ◼ ► and then a bunch of lines of code below it will those those lines will never be reached because that return statement [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2299">TS</a>]
00:38:24 ◼ ► unconditional return will execute and then everything else in the function will never be reached. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2304">TS</a>]
00:38:30 ◼ ► It's if you have this unconditional goto statement which is what the bug line was that skips over that big block of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2310">TS</a>]
00:38:36 ◼ ► function then that that code is unreachable and so compiler there's a warning for that. In honor of his in G.C.C. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2316">TS</a>]
00:38:43 ◼ ► but It's at least a V.M. and The problem is it's not part of the W. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2323">TS</a>]
00:38:48 ◼ ► All option that that a lot of nerds use it's not part of the all mornings default set because I think I was reading a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2328">TS</a>]
00:38:56 ◼ ► little of this I think the main reason why is because there's a lot of like you know libraries [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2336">TS</a>]
00:39:01 ◼ ► and stuff that that it would fail on for various reasons [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2341">TS</a>]
00:39:05 ◼ ► and so in that's you know it's always it's always a tricky balance of warnings and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2345">TS</a>]
00:39:09 ◼ ► when you're striking that like I recently in my P.H.P. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2349">TS</a>]
00:39:11 ◼ ► Framework I I always had for the last few years I've used what I call trick development mode which is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2351">TS</a>]
00:39:20 ◼ ► when you're in the development Vironment everything even the notice the lightest level of P.H.P. Warnings. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2360">TS</a>]
00:39:26 ◼ ► Everything became an exception because I don't want my code to ever emit a notice [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2366">TS</a>]
00:39:30 ◼ ► and I don't care if it's going to be littered with with is set statements all over the place. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2370">TS</a>]
00:39:35 ◼ ► I don't care everything there should be no errors in development [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2375">TS</a>]
00:39:38 ◼ ► and I recently even a couple weeks ago I think it was a recent So you know why. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2378">TS</a>]
00:39:43 ◼ ► Why should not also apply to production. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2383">TS</a>]
00:39:45 ◼ ► If I'm if I'm throwing exceptions on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2385">TS</a>]
00:39:47 ◼ ► and on any minor error in development that for I think good reasons why should I be more lenient in production. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2387">TS</a>]
00:39:54 ◼ ► In reality if things are failing anywhere I want to know about that so I can stop it so I can fix it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2394">TS</a>]
00:40:00 ◼ ► So I can do the right thing. So the reason it shouldn't apply in production. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2400">TS</a>]
00:40:02 ◼ ► If you don't control your own service which a lot of people don't like this sort of deploying to they have some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2402">TS</a>]
00:40:07 ◼ ► baseline they need to support for their deployments [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2407">TS</a>]
00:40:10 ◼ ► but they don't control every single detail like they don't have their machines basically they're not the one who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2410">TS</a>]
00:40:14 ◼ ► For example they're not the one controlling Apache in the upgrade cycle stuff like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2414">TS</a>]
00:40:18 ◼ ► and you don't want to run with all the warnings turned on especially with warnings turn into fatal errors in that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2418">TS</a>]
00:40:22 ◼ ► situation because someone will do a minor point upgrade to Apache P.H.P. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2422">TS</a>]
00:40:26 ◼ ► or Some other thing which will suddenly cause warnings where once they were nine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2426">TS</a>]
00:40:29 ◼ ► and then your production is down because of something you didn't do. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2429">TS</a>]
00:40:31 ◼ ► But in your case since you control all of the you control the version of everything is not going to get upgraded behind [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2431">TS</a>]
00:40:37 ◼ ► So it is slightly more reasonable to do that I think I would disagree on that I think I think I will I will want that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2437">TS</a>]
00:40:42 ◼ ► to break because that's a problem that you should know about immediately [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2442">TS</a>]
00:40:46 ◼ ► and if the if the people who are controlling the servers do any kind of testing like if they you know maybe deploy it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2446">TS</a>]
00:40:52 ◼ ► on film and server or if if you deploy to production you know with stuff like P.H.P. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2452">TS</a>]
00:40:58 ◼ ► Update at least like you do it on one server first and see what happens if you give it that Fluffy you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2458">TS</a>]
00:41:03 ◼ ► and if you like in all those cases I'd rather the app actually crash [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2463">TS</a>]
00:41:08 ◼ ► and burn immediately you know it's like to fail early and completely or often whatever the statement is fail [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2468">TS</a>]
00:41:14 ◼ ► or the warnings are always going to be something like this language feature is going to be deprecated sometime in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2474">TS</a>]
00:41:18 ◼ ► next two years so you should stop using it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2478">TS</a>]
00:41:20 ◼ ► and it's like that should not cause your app to go down in production like that did it you'd be mad that it went down [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2480">TS</a>]
00:41:26 ◼ ► to you be like that's not important enough for production to stop working [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2486">TS</a>]
00:41:29 ◼ ► and you'd be mad because you know they upgraded something and it broke your stuff or whatever [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2489">TS</a>]
00:41:32 ◼ ► but like historically in my working career the reason warnings get turned off from production is privileged to the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2492">TS</a>]
00:41:40 ◼ ► when we do control the entire stack merely because a different department in the same company controls like the upgrade [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2500">TS</a>]
00:41:47 ◼ ► and the other department doesn't want that department possibly screen them up by you know changing something that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2507">TS</a>]
00:41:53 ◼ ► causes a warning that is totally bogus and immaterial and stupid and really does not have any. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2513">TS</a>]
00:42:00 ◼ ► Do with a functioning application is practically like the developers is like waving at you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2520">TS</a>]
00:42:03 ◼ ► and saying we made a new message here look at our message Hi How you doing message a message [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2523">TS</a>]
00:42:08 ◼ ► and you're like I don't want my program to stop working because of that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2528">TS</a>]
00:42:11 ◼ ► I'll see it finally go to patch up that things that doesn't emit the warning any more like it'll be invisible [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2531">TS</a>]
00:42:16 ◼ ► but turning it into a fatal error in production is usually a bridge too far. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2536">TS</a>]
00:42:21 ◼ ► I still disagree I see your point I don't think that's a good enough reason. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2541">TS</a>]
00:42:26 ◼ ► Well it's when you want to throw a one man shopping controls everything yeah that's fine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2546">TS</a>]
00:42:29 ◼ ► but things get much more complicated as the organizations get bigger [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2549">TS</a>]
00:42:32 ◼ ► and things get farther away from the control of the people writing the code. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2552">TS</a>]
00:42:37 ◼ ► I completely agree with John and I think that comes from the fact that John and I have real jobs [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2557">TS</a>]
00:42:43 ◼ ► and it's just you by yourself so it's not easy it's not easy to deal with those sorts of issues and even consulting. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2563">TS</a>]
00:42:53 ◼ ► It's an even finer line because a lot of times you know myself [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2573">TS</a>]
00:42:57 ◼ ► and my team will build something handed off to the client and then walk away. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2577">TS</a>]
00:43:02 ◼ ► And so in many cases the company for which we've built something may [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2582">TS</a>]
00:43:09 ◼ ► or may not really have the talent in the house to figure out when some esoteric warning happens [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2589">TS</a>]
00:43:15 ◼ ► and what to do about it and we're not necessarily contracted with this client anymore so they're on their own [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2595">TS</a>]
00:43:22 ◼ ► and not to say that we you know silently squash or exceptions or anything like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2602">TS</a>]
00:43:26 ◼ ► but for non-fatal things oftentimes it's not in our [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2606">TS</a>]
00:43:30 ◼ ► or our client's best interest to cause a ruckus over those sorts of things. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2610">TS</a>]
00:43:35 ◼ ► The Sutil chain is better about doing this as a bridge is basically why miners wall doesn't print so many areas because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2615">TS</a>]
00:43:42 ◼ ► whoever defined wall way back when. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2622">TS</a>]
00:43:44 ◼ ► Now no one can change it because if you did you like all this compile cleanly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2624">TS</a>]
00:43:47 ◼ ► and how Doesn't your compiler's broken right that's why there's everything. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2627">TS</a>]
00:43:50 ◼ ► Because the wall is not you know historical baggage like that whereas in the much looser higher level languages in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2630">TS</a>]
00:44:00 ◼ ► No problem throwing out the next version the next minor version of like Ruby or node or something like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2640">TS</a>]
00:44:05 ◼ ► and adding a bunch of warnings because because they're trying to influence the people who are using the language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2645">TS</a>]
00:44:10 ◼ ► because they're trying to warn about deprecated features because they think they've decided that this could potentially [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2650">TS</a>]
00:44:14 ◼ ► be a problem like you know because their warnings like we don't know this is wrong otherwise you wouldn't have compiled [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2654">TS</a>]
00:44:20 ◼ ► But there might be something you might want to look at here [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2660">TS</a>]
00:44:23 ◼ ► and this may be a new warning so you don't have the statement above [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2663">TS</a>]
00:44:26 ◼ ► or that says don't worry about that they like you were saying with the like a lot of other legally put pragma as an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2666">TS</a>]
00:44:31 ◼ ► lexically scoped warnings restrictions they look I know normally and more warning would be emitted here [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2671">TS</a>]
00:44:36 ◼ ► but I know what I'm doing let the thing go past me to write that right into the code. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2676">TS</a>]
00:44:40 ◼ ► Well you can only do that for the for the warnings you know about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2680">TS</a>]
00:44:43 ◼ ► and oh you see compiler is not going to suddenly add a bunch of things to minus wall. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2683">TS</a>]
00:44:48 ◼ ► Lots of other languages and open source projects that are newer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2688">TS</a>]
00:44:51 ◼ ► and moving much faster who have no problem adding crap like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2691">TS</a>]
00:44:54 ◼ ► and eventually just the fatigue of the organization keeping up with these things is like you know politically speaking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2694">TS</a>]
00:44:59 ◼ ► they'll be like Can we just not make the warnings into exceptions and production and just look at the logs [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2699">TS</a>]
00:45:04 ◼ ► and we've seen or expects them that will very quickly go through once production is down a few times and bosses [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2704">TS</a>]
00:45:09 ◼ ► and bosses bosses are yelling down development asking why production is down [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2709">TS</a>]
00:45:13 ◼ ► and at that point Marco have a much harder time explaining to his boss [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2713">TS</a>]
00:45:16 ◼ ► or his boss's boss why it actually really is good a good thing that production went down because now we know right away. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2716">TS</a>]
00:45:24 ◼ ► I think this is a lot like ending a Lisp program with a bunch of clothes in parentheses just you know just in case you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2724">TS</a>]
00:45:28 ◼ ► make a mistake which was actually the recommended thing for in my eye com site you will want to run every class [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2728">TS</a>]
00:45:35 ◼ ► The professor actually instructed us to just put a bunch of these in the file to make it easier for her [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2735">TS</a>]
00:45:43 ◼ ► but from a profit from a practical perspective if your company is a twenty four seven online company [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2743">TS</a>]
00:45:48 ◼ ► and they you they lose let's say five thousand dollars in revenue for every sixty seconds your servers are down. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2748">TS</a>]
00:45:54 ◼ ► It is much harder to make the argument that Margo is made like it really depends on the situation and some reason. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2754">TS</a>]
00:46:00 ◼ ► Stupid like institutional reasons where there's you know kingdoms within the company that are fighting each other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2760">TS</a>]
00:46:06 ◼ ► and the developers are distant from the code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2766">TS</a>]
00:46:08 ◼ ► and they don't control the deployment like those are sicknesses within the company [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2768">TS</a>]
00:46:11 ◼ ► but then there are legitimate reasons like will say it is a company where the Embry works together [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2771">TS</a>]
00:46:16 ◼ ► Amount of dollars for every minute the server is down and going takes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2776">TS</a>]
00:46:20 ◼ ► and only takes one night of that happening to go [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2780">TS</a>]
00:46:23 ◼ ► and develop a salary that they could have had you know from thousands of dollars [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2783">TS</a>]
00:46:27 ◼ ► and lost the service being down during that time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2787">TS</a>]
00:46:29 ◼ ► and so yeah like sometimes you just you just practically speaking don't have the luxury of turning all warnings into [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2789">TS</a>]
00:46:34 ◼ ► exceptions I think this is everything you've just said like you know like really critical that it is having production [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2794">TS</a>]
00:46:43 ◼ ► That's all the more reason why you shouldn't be recklessly playing updates in production to your critical code like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2803">TS</a>]
00:46:49 ◼ ► your language interpreter like the hip if you're deploying a new version of P.H.P. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2809">TS</a>]
00:46:54 ◼ ► To your production servers that you've never tested your code on development [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2814">TS</a>]
00:46:58 ◼ ► and you have the kind of situation where you're going to lose tons of money every minute that your site is down the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2818">TS</a>]
00:47:04 ◼ ► middle of the night because you updated in the middle of night [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2824">TS</a>]
00:47:05 ◼ ► and like any of the weight of your programmer like that's to me that's that's like a pretty there's a number of things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2825">TS</a>]
00:47:13 ◼ ► wrong with that and it's not it's not your warning level that languages can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2833">TS</a>]
00:47:18 ◼ ► and unexpected warnings not just because they're going to the version of the anagrams interpreter [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2838">TS</a>]
00:47:22 ◼ ► but simply because they could bethen have coverage and you know it's like the runtime they're basically runtime [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2842">TS</a>]
00:47:27 ◼ ► or things like that that exist as a thing in the hammock language especially for web programming that if you don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2847">TS</a>]
00:47:33 ◼ ► execute that code path that warning will never be admitted [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2853">TS</a>]
00:47:36 ◼ ► but if you have a warning to me they become fatal exceptions [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2856">TS</a>]
00:47:38 ◼ ► and in production someone Apple actually hits that code path. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2858">TS</a>]
00:47:41 ◼ ► No one upgraded anything but your server still you know died because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2861">TS</a>]
00:47:46 ◼ ► and because that turned into a fatal exception there's there's always between you know with with any kind of non error [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2866">TS</a>]
00:47:55 ◼ ► any kind of warning or notice there's this balance that you're striking between. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2875">TS</a>]
00:48:00 ◼ ► You know convenience of easiness and tolerance of edge cases versus trying to be correct all the time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2880">TS</a>]
00:48:10 ◼ ► and it's you know kind of like security it is like it is a balance between convenience and easy and ease [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2890">TS</a>]
00:48:18 ◼ ► and you know if if you're to the point where you're permitting lots of warnings to happen in production unexpectedly I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2898">TS</a>]
00:48:26 ◼ ► think that's a sign that something is wrong that well you know you're not permitting them you just don't want to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2906">TS</a>]
00:48:31 ◼ ► fatal errors you'll address them as soon as you see them because one of the could be data driven for example value [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2911">TS</a>]
00:48:35 ◼ ► comes in and it's undefined and how I was value undefined it OK for it to be undefined [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2915">TS</a>]
00:48:39 ◼ ► but there's some warning that if you use an undefined value as one function it says this is unexpected [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2919">TS</a>]
00:48:44 ◼ ► and you totally thought it should be expect that someone forgot to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2924">TS</a>]
00:48:46 ◼ ► but please don't give me warning about undefined values I pass them because OK for it to be undefined [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2926">TS</a>]
00:48:51 ◼ ► but you never get that coding testing and it gets like warnings aren't necessarily. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2931">TS</a>]
00:48:55 ◼ ► I know people like to turn them on development so they can just get things clean because it's that much easier to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2935">TS</a>]
00:48:59 ◼ ► verify that there's nothing there because once you let any leak through then you just it becomes an avalanche [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2939">TS</a>]
00:49:03 ◼ ► and you start an argument but in production like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2943">TS</a>]
00:49:08 ◼ ► and Mabel ing these things isn't necessarily saying we are telling you there's something wrong with your code in fact [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2948">TS</a>]
00:49:12 ◼ ► almost all the time it's not telling you there's something wrong with your code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2952">TS</a>]
00:49:16 ◼ ► and it's just really hard to be at the whim of these messages that don't actually tell you anything useful about your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2956">TS</a>]
00:49:22 ◼ ► code in production turning him into pillars leave them on a production log them immediately address each one of them so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2962">TS</a>]
00:49:29 ◼ ► that you get the volume of those warnings down to zero again but turn them into fatal exception. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2969">TS</a>]
00:49:34 ◼ ► Like I said I think that's too much but you see I think that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2974">TS</a>]
00:49:37 ◼ ► and people have also suggested like you know you can you should just log them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2977">TS</a>]
00:49:41 ◼ ► and then you know have a policy to deal with them. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2981">TS</a>]
00:49:43 ◼ ► I think in reality that's much more likely to just get ignored [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2983">TS</a>]
00:49:47 ◼ ► or well it only happened if you know it only happens once a week for a few hours [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2987">TS</a>]
00:49:53 ◼ ► or we've only ever seen this message five or six times so we'll just ignore it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2993">TS</a>]
00:49:57 ◼ ► and I think that's the wrong approach for a law. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/2997">TS</a>]
00:50:00 ◼ ► Situation you don't need to if you don't need an hour you'll know exactly what line it came from you can get a stack [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3000">TS</a>]
00:50:04 ◼ ► trace a bit like you like it's usually so easy to address because your media look at the warning look at the line of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3004">TS</a>]
00:50:10 ◼ ► code and say Is this an acceptable condition out of as an accepted condition [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3010">TS</a>]
00:50:13 ◼ ► and you just put in the pragmatist don't emit that warning from this line anymore. Done and done. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3013">TS</a>]
00:50:17 ◼ ► If it's not an acceptable condition in Congratulations you've been alerted to potential bugging you need to change your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3017">TS</a>]
00:50:22 ◼ ► Both of those situations one of these are dispensed in two seconds and so there's not a barrier to entry that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3022">TS</a>]
00:50:27 ◼ ► and the second one is you found a legitimate bug I think developers will want to fix that as well I don't I don't think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3027">TS</a>]
00:50:32 ◼ ► people will ignore them especially if you're running all development [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3032">TS</a>]
00:50:35 ◼ ► when the fatal error is mode because that will ensure that their volume is zero in development it's just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3035">TS</a>]
00:50:39 ◼ ► when you get to production that you want to crank it back one notch to basically to make yourself not go down to reason [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3039">TS</a>]
00:50:46 ◼ ► but again I guess I think the human behavior like the reality of of human nature is such that if you tolerate those [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3046">TS</a>]
00:50:55 ◼ ► warnings and production even if the policy says you shouldn't. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3055">TS</a>]
00:50:59 ◼ ► In practice that's going to lead to a lot of messy code staying there indefinitely. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3059">TS</a>]
00:51:03 ◼ ► Whereas if it actually breaks it forces you to fix it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3063">TS</a>]
00:51:09 ◼ ► They were innovations are going to one thing it's making policies annoying policies so I actually have more faith in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3069">TS</a>]
00:51:16 ◼ ► the large corporations ability to make a stupid policy that requires their who are not stupid [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3076">TS</a>]
00:51:22 ◼ ► and to be able to make a policy that people don't like following gives us human nature to not want to deal with those [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3082">TS</a>]
00:51:28 ◼ ► I mean it goes the other way like the policy that says you gotta have all warnings on when you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3088">TS</a>]
00:51:32 ◼ ► when you build your application a lot of individual developers won't like that because they find it tedious to go [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3092">TS</a>]
00:51:37 ◼ ► traced and all there is there is like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3097">TS</a>]
00:51:39 ◼ ► and indie developers tend to have to psych each other up to say I know I should be running with everything but I'm not. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3099">TS</a>]
00:51:45 ◼ ► And like they can have to encourage each other to do that because they know it's good for them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3105">TS</a>]
00:51:48 ◼ ► but it's human nature not to want to do that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3108">TS</a>]
00:51:50 ◼ ► Like flossing an organization you have someone to levels up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3110">TS</a>]
00:51:54 ◼ ► or does not touch the code can just force everybody do that and make it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3114">TS</a>]
00:51:56 ◼ ► and make it a policy like I think if Casey has said this many times in the past. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3116">TS</a>]
00:52:00 ◼ ► It's true of any works of the companies. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3120">TS</a>]
00:52:02 ◼ ► Whenever anything goes wrong it's almost like a positive event of a rabbit again which eventually leads to a gigantic [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3122">TS</a>]
00:52:08 ◼ ► web of policies that paralyzes the company makes them stupid and dumb [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3128">TS</a>]
00:52:11 ◼ ► but like I said that's the one thing they are good at is this bad thing happened. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3131">TS</a>]
00:52:15 ◼ ► Make a policy sort of happen again like they wouldn't deposit we must have zero warnings by the Tuesday after the build [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3135">TS</a>]
00:52:22 ◼ ► all warnings must have tasks assigned for them with due dates [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3142">TS</a>]
00:52:25 ◼ ► and like that that is I think something that they were they are good at right now I think. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3145">TS</a>]
00:52:30 ◼ ► MARCO What would your maybe losing sight of is that as a lot of times going to having a production failure it just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3150">TS</a>]
00:52:39 ◼ ► isn't an option even for seconds and and John was alluding to the surlier [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3159">TS</a>]
00:52:43 ◼ ► but you were you're coming from the position as you should of someone who is not only V.P. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3163">TS</a>]
00:52:50 ◼ ► On coder but is also the boss and so if if overcast is out in the wild and it goes down who do you have to answer to. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3170">TS</a>]
00:52:58 ◼ ► Everyone will know why now. Yeah exactly. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3178">TS</a>]
00:53:02 ◼ ► Default time zone said well you know you're modifying other collection monitoring over these know that you shouldn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3182">TS</a>]
00:53:09 ◼ ► use my framework if you have the situation right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3189">TS</a>]
00:53:13 ◼ ► but you don't I mean like you have to answer yes you have to answer your customers and that is kind of crummy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3193">TS</a>]
00:53:16 ◼ ► but your customers can't fire you. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3196">TS</a>]
00:53:18 ◼ ► They could walk away and OK we can go and we can go down that rabbit hole if you really want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3198">TS</a>]
00:53:22 ◼ ► but in a direct sense they can't fire you they can't not give you a bonus that year they can't impure Rickly hurt you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3202">TS</a>]
00:53:33 ◼ ► and it's very different for I think I speak for John and saying it's very different for he [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3213">TS</a>]
00:53:36 ◼ ► and I because if we make some sort of decision that we think that dying in production is better somebody many many many [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3216">TS</a>]
00:53:46 ◼ ► rungs up the ladder from us may not agree with that and I guarantee you the bigger the company the more. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3226">TS</a>]
00:53:54 ◼ ► Well in my experience the bigger the company the the happier they are to find a head to chop off and what role. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3234">TS</a>]
00:54:00 ◼ ► Well the big thing is you will not be able to convince them even if you're one hundred percent right because there are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3240">TS</a>]
00:54:04 ◼ ► many situations where you really are right and this was like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3244">TS</a>]
00:54:07 ◼ ► nor where they were talk about warnings like this was a legitimate reason it is actually better that this happened that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3247">TS</a>]
00:54:12 ◼ ► Good luck convincing somebody three levels up in the org chart of that even if you were just so right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3252">TS</a>]
00:54:17 ◼ ► and everybody who has a sibling to you in your time below you agree that they all signed a petition they all got on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3257">TS</a>]
00:54:22 ◼ ► parking lot and they were right. The C.E.O. or The C.T.O. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3262">TS</a>]
00:54:26 ◼ ► and Certainly you will not convince them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3266">TS</a>]
00:54:29 ◼ ► and that's the harsh world that we live in you know let me let me challenge our listeners here. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3269">TS</a>]
00:54:33 ◼ ► I honestly curious I would like to know if you work at a company that has a big important online infrastructure. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3273">TS</a>]
00:54:45 ◼ ► And isn't google stuff like that you know big important companies that where you do things well online [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3285">TS</a>]
00:54:52 ◼ ► and it's really important that they stay up. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3292">TS</a>]
00:54:54 ◼ ► I'm curious what is your policy what is your company's policy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3294">TS</a>]
00:54:57 ◼ ► and you can write us on the feedback form honestly you can use the early Twitter accounts. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3297">TS</a>]
00:55:02 ◼ ► We don't need this to be like you know on the record I'm just curious to know what what do the big companies do in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3302">TS</a>]
00:55:08 ◼ ► reality where this stuff really does matter and where they are technically. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3308">TS</a>]
00:55:13 ◼ ► Generally you know well run companies I think at that scale it's kind of different I think Google and Amazon half [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3313">TS</a>]
00:55:20 ◼ ► and Netflix although it has a design for expected failure so they have to have basically instead of an organism that is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3320">TS</a>]
00:55:26 ◼ ► like clean running they have to make one where X. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3326">TS</a>]
00:55:28 ◼ ► Cell death is expected and they just have little busy robots going through cleaning up the dead cells [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3328">TS</a>]
00:55:32 ◼ ► and stuff so that isn't that a little bit different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3332">TS</a>]
00:55:35 ◼ ► and I'm thinking of like of the medium term ones where you're not that big every human in the world is not hitting your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3335">TS</a>]
00:55:42 ◼ ► It just absolutely asked me like stock trading or banking things whereas only a few computers in this network [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3342">TS</a>]
00:55:47 ◼ ► and they're directly connected by crazy optic wires [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3347">TS</a>]
00:55:50 ◼ ► and into I forget the trading are they doing something about doing bank transfers but these three [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3350">TS</a>]
00:55:55 ◼ ► or four computers have to always be up otherwise people whose millions of dollars you know. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3355">TS</a>]
00:56:00 ◼ ► But he can like that's more reason why you should be really careful what code runs on them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3360">TS</a>]
00:56:04 ◼ ► and why you probably shouldn't ignore a warning. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3364">TS</a>]
00:56:07 ◼ ► Well you're not you're not ignoring what is going around circles it's like the question of do you want something that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3367">TS</a>]
00:56:11 ◼ ► shouldn't that doesn't necessarily have to be fatal to be fatal [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3371">TS</a>]
00:56:13 ◼ ► or to cause a piece of work to be put into someone's been to fix that with a deadline because that's the policy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3373">TS</a>]
00:56:19 ◼ ► But anyway if people defend a feedback on what are they the policies I think you'll be horrified to find that people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3379">TS</a>]
00:56:24 ◼ ► don't enable warnings period even in development. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3384">TS</a>]
00:56:28 ◼ ► or even they're not even enabled like if we just took a mass survey what we'd find out be like warnings now we turn [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3388">TS</a>]
00:56:34 ◼ ► those authors unless you're absolutely right you have the right the other thing I should point out is that you saying [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3394">TS</a>]
00:56:41 ◼ ► Well I shouldn't say that the way you phrased the question was if your livelihood your company's livelihood is based on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3401">TS</a>]
00:56:48 ◼ ► some sort of online service or website or whatever. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3408">TS</a>]
00:56:51 ◼ ► But what you're losing sight of is a lot of times my clients at the job in which I work. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3411">TS</a>]
00:56:58 ◼ ► We often times but not always do like a corporate Internet you know same sort of thing that igloo does [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3418">TS</a>]
00:57:03 ◼ ► and a lot of times we're told this cannot go down when in reality nothing will go broke in. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3423">TS</a>]
00:57:12 ◼ ► If the internet is down you don't I mean so a lot of times from on high they say this Internet will be up always [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3432">TS</a>]
00:57:21 ◼ ► And so we have to make decisions because as consultants based on the requirement from the client even if we think it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3441">TS</a>]
00:57:28 ◼ ► ball and I think that John was alluding to that earlier and so a lot of times even if you could say [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3448">TS</a>]
00:57:34 ◼ ► when it doesn't matter if this goes down. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3454">TS</a>]
00:57:36 ◼ ► So a lot of times clients will say well it's better for going to be up or work come in and call on you guys [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3456">TS</a>]
00:57:41 ◼ ► and we're going to be asked and I hope you know you want to tell me about some cool yeah. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3461">TS</a>]
00:57:46 ◼ ► And before that so that I think that you're right that for your situation where you know if if it's consulting a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3466">TS</a>]
00:57:56 ◼ ► consulting gig where you have to build some system for somebody and then. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3476">TS</a>]
00:58:00 ◼ ► Effectively it's going to have a zero maintenance for a while whether that's weeks or years [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3480">TS</a>]
00:58:04 ◼ ► or decades like then I think that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3484">TS</a>]
00:58:07 ◼ ► and that's a different environment where you expect the software to just tolerate existing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3487">TS</a>]
00:58:12 ◼ ► and whatever upgrades happen on its server which probably won't even be a whole lot honestly. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3492">TS</a>]
00:58:16 ◼ ► But in reality let's be realistic here. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3496">TS</a>]
00:58:19 ◼ ► But you know this thing has to operate with no programmer intervention indefinitely. Right. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3499">TS</a>]
00:58:24 ◼ ► Then it's a different story. Right. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3504">TS</a>]
00:58:26 ◼ ► Then I completely agree that you know you're already doing something that's by software development standards pretty [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3506">TS</a>]
00:58:32 ◼ ► bad. If you're going to have and maintain software in production use for a long time right. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3512">TS</a>]
00:58:39 ◼ ► But in reality that happens all time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3519">TS</a>]
00:58:41 ◼ ► and so you're right that like you know in practice in a lot of places you have to accommodate for that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3521">TS</a>]
00:58:45 ◼ ► but that's typically not the kind of place as you said it's not the kind of place where it's super important that there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3525">TS</a>]
00:58:52 ◼ ► wouldn't be no technical errors. You know all the time. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3532">TS</a>]
00:58:55 ◼ ► So anyway we are sponsored and sorry we are sponsored as we also once again by our friends that help spot. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3535">TS</a>]
00:59:04 ◼ ► Are you still using email clients for customer support Casey. I do customer support. I mean yes yes I am. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3544">TS</a>]
00:59:12 ◼ ► You're probably losing track of important take its I bet I am trying to use mark as unread as an organizational tool [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3552">TS</a>]
00:59:18 ◼ ► and I am in co-workers to see who's working on what. That's ridiculous. It's time to get organized. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3558">TS</a>]
00:59:24 ◼ ► Most helpdesk software tries to be all things to all people. Infinite feature creep. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3564">TS</a>]
00:59:28 ◼ ► These huge complex messes help spot is focused. It deals only with customer inquiries and self serve knowledge bases. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3568">TS</a>]
00:59:37 ◼ ► There's no built in asset management or password resetting or other unnecessary features to get in your way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3577">TS</a>]
00:59:42 ◼ ► or require complex integration work with your application or your infrastructure. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3582">TS</a>]
00:59:46 ◼ ► How the software is also usually really expensive. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3586">TS</a>]
00:59:49 ◼ ► A lot of them are like around six hundred dollars per user per year which is really high helps [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3589">TS</a>]
00:59:54 ◼ ► but is just to ninety nine per user. Once you own it for life it's not. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3594">TS</a>]
01:00:00 ◼ ► If it is to a twenty nine per user one time you own it for life and there's no lock in. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3600">TS</a>]
01:00:05 ◼ ► You can download the software and host it yourself or you can have it hosted for you either way. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3605">TS</a>]
01:00:10 ◼ ► Even if they host it for you you always have access to the database that you can directly Querrey export [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3610">TS</a>]
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01:00:57 ◼ ► So here's the thing that we're kind of dancing around and I think it might be time to pull the band aid off. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3657">TS</a>]
01:01:03 ◼ ► No I want to do this thing that was I thought as you were talking about the perfect example you're just talking about I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3663">TS</a>]
01:01:10 ◼ ► know what he was he was this our mentality is here with us we kind of touched on it a little bit less time for script [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3670">TS</a>]
01:01:16 ◼ ► notes you know to save it to Africa. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3676">TS</a>]
01:01:18 ◼ ► The second sponsor John was happening I had to break into it happen and I listened. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3678">TS</a>]
01:01:26 ◼ ► Nope I guess for nothing but I also know I have a follow up today. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3686">TS</a>]
01:01:30 ◼ ► Just just to make sure I had it done for this episode gentleman the last this is the way it's going to have to be. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3690">TS</a>]
01:01:37 ◼ ► Where I don't want to this week by squirty going to I don't even see all one platform makes a fashion easy to create [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3697">TS</a>]
01:01:44 ◼ ► your own professional web site or on one chord going out for a free trial [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3704">TS</a>]
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01:01:51 ◼ ► K C Yeah hey Squarespace is always improving their platform with new features new designs [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3711">TS</a>]
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01:02:17 ◼ ► So if it has an amazing support team that works twenty four hours a day seven days a week with over seventy employees [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3737">TS</a>]
01:02:23 ◼ ► right here in New York City all of this starts at just eight dollars a month [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3743">TS</a>]
01:02:28 ◼ ► and includes are free to make any kind of for a year [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3748">TS</a>]
01:02:30 ◼ ► and you can her free trial today with no credit card required it's a real free trial. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3750">TS</a>]
01:02:35 ◼ ► No credit card and when you do start to sign up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3755">TS</a>]
01:02:39 ◼ ► and use offer code Kacey for ten percent off to show your support for our show as well. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3759">TS</a>]
01:02:44 ◼ ► And one more cool thing to Merkel is actually you know what I'm going all out for three more cool things. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3764">TS</a>]
01:02:51 ◼ ► Square is based introduces a new thing called square space logo. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3771">TS</a>]
01:02:54 ◼ ► In addition to building your website you can build your own logo for your site business cards or whatever you want. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3774">TS</a>]
01:03:01 ◼ ► Also all square space plans now include the commerce functionality you can have a store where you sell physical [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3781">TS</a>]
01:03:06 ◼ ► or digital goods. Also it's a great integration there it's so easy to set up. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3786">TS</a>]
01:03:11 ◼ ► You can finally have your own online store with very very little effort it's really amazing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3791">TS</a>]
01:03:15 ◼ ► and every square face plant now includes the commerce functionality at no additional charge. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3795">TS</a>]
01:03:20 ◼ ► And finally Squarespace is hiring. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3800">TS</a>]
01:03:24 ◼ ► If you enjoy it if you interview for an engineering or design position before March fifteenth they will invite you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3804">TS</a>]
01:03:30 ◼ ► and your partner to be New Yorkers for a weekend. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3810">TS</a>]
01:03:33 ◼ ► It will fly you out to New York put you up in one of the city's best hotels [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3813">TS</a>]
01:03:36 ◼ ► and give you a long weekend of checking out some of their favorite tractions cultural icons [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3816">TS</a>]
01:03:41 ◼ ► and restaurants in the city square space will take up the entire tab for this awesome trip to New York. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3821">TS</a>]
01:03:46 ◼ ► They've been voted one of New York City's greatest places to work for two years running so really put them on your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3826">TS</a>]
01:03:50 ◼ ► short list. They're looking to hire thirty engineers and designers by March fifteenth. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3830">TS</a>]
01:03:55 ◼ ► So going to be a part of it that squarespace dot com That's be a part of it. That's great. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3835">TS</a>]
01:04:00 ◼ ► Based on com to learn more about the school offer thanks a lot to Squarespace for sponsoring our show once again. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3840">TS</a>]
01:04:05 ◼ ► So but this Christmas episode Don't even start with me. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3845">TS</a>]
01:04:08 ◼ ► Are you really going to be that if you really want me to abandon software my set all Jews even though it perfectly fits [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3848">TS</a>]
01:04:14 ◼ ► the thread of this episode. Then we can move on. John what do you think about this. He changed so much. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3854">TS</a>]
01:04:23 ◼ ► CAVE You know yourself you know I thought I would say though that over the time I think it deserves to be kind of like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3863">TS</a>]
01:04:30 ◼ ► in the prime spot with more time. I leave it up that I am abstaining from this vote. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3870">TS</a>]
01:04:34 ◼ ► So it's Casey versus Marco decide we're going to talk about X. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3874">TS</a>]
01:04:39 ◼ ► I'm prepared for both I kind of feel like that already has a big enough topic that we would want to jam into the into [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3879">TS</a>]
01:04:45 ◼ ► the show. But I'll go either way. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3885">TS</a>]
01:04:47 ◼ ► I actually am going to agree with John's non-vote it was actually IS OF A [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3887">TS</a>]
01:04:51 ◼ ► but I'm I'm going to agree with John's non-vote and say that I am not trying to avoid it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3891">TS</a>]
01:04:56 ◼ ► I do think it deserves more time. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3896">TS</a>]
01:05:00 ◼ ► and God help you trying to edit this episode because now I've turned it into a complete cluster. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3900">TS</a>]
01:05:06 ◼ ► But oh this is all in just one horney to that's it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3906">TS</a>]
01:05:09 ◼ ► It's all and I'm excited about that this is this is what Bill Clinton for Casey this is this the show right. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3909">TS</a>]
01:05:16 ◼ ► So we should probably catch people up on script notes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3916">TS</a>]
01:05:19 ◼ ► and curse this topic internally even though it actually is very interesting. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3919">TS</a>]
01:05:26 ◼ ► and told us oh you should really was in the script episode in script notes is a pod cast by two screenwriters [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3926">TS</a>]
01:05:32 ◼ ► and I can even tell you who they are off to my head. John August and some other guy. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3932">TS</a>]
01:05:36 ◼ ► I think that's what I do too but I was yeah. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3936">TS</a>]
01:05:40 ◼ ► And I only know John all this is because he was another part guess that I listen to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3940">TS</a>]
01:05:44 ◼ ► and once I have I've seen his movies and I like them and I'm like oh he's the guy who did that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3944">TS</a>]
01:05:49 ◼ ► But yeah I don't know that guy sorry. But now that other guy knows exactly how I feel anyway. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3949">TS</a>]
01:05:56 ◼ ► So there's this podcast about screenwriting and. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3956">TS</a>]
01:06:00 ◼ ► Apparently the defacto industry standard for screenwriting is called What what is called the final draft. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3960">TS</a>]
01:06:08 ◼ ► Thank you I have wanted to say Final Cut final draft and so it's a screenwriting application [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3968">TS</a>]
01:06:12 ◼ ► and it is like I said the industry standards. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3972">TS</a>]
01:06:14 ◼ ► So from what I gather the screenwriters John August and Casey will call him. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3974">TS</a>]
01:06:21 ◼ ► They don't particularly care for Final Draft and his name is Craig Mazen. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3981">TS</a>]
01:06:25 ◼ ► Thank you so John and Craig don't really care for final draft [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3985">TS</a>]
01:06:29 ◼ ► and they actually I guess I complained about it in prior episodes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3989">TS</a>]
01:06:32 ◼ ► but this past episode at the time we recorded this they had actually had the C.E.O. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3992">TS</a>]
01:06:38 ◼ ► Of the company that makes final draft as well as what a proud duct managers I write product [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/3998">TS</a>]
01:06:44 ◼ ► or project I don't know the difference I live in my own little world here with some other guy would just call that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4004">TS</a>]
01:06:49 ◼ ► person long suffering employee right. So so that other guy. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4009">TS</a>]
01:06:57 ◼ ► So the two of them came on the show which I really respect because it was clear from the get go that this wasn't going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4017">TS</a>]
01:07:05 ◼ ► And so John and Craig had these two other guys on the show [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4025">TS</a>]
01:07:09 ◼ ► and started telling them all the things that they don't really like about Final Draft [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4029">TS</a>]
01:07:14 ◼ ► and why they feel like they've been wronged by not only the high purchase price of what two hundred fifty boxes are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4034">TS</a>]
01:07:23 ◼ ► Some like that some with two hundred fifty bucks or so for final draft but also the slow updates [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4043">TS</a>]
01:07:28 ◼ ► and it was a really fascinating view of both sides of the coin of software development both as the company [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4048">TS</a>]
01:07:39 ◼ ► and the people who create software and the people who consume it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4059">TS</a>]
01:07:43 ◼ ► and how they don't entirely understand what we go through in the same way that the C.E.O. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4063">TS</a>]
01:07:50 ◼ ► and That other to the long suffering employee don't really understand what their customers go through either [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4070">TS</a>]
01:07:55 ◼ ► and I have some takeaways from this but let me let me open the floor to you. You guys and see us. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4075">TS</a>]
01:08:01 ◼ ► MARCO What did you think about all this. Well first I think. So I I listen to the podcast. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4081">TS</a>]
01:08:09 ◼ ► I made my own opinions of it and I've made a whole post about it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4089">TS</a>]
01:08:14 ◼ ► and all that was before I had read this follow up article from there's a guy named Kent Testament who writes a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4094">TS</a>]
01:08:23 ◼ ► competing product called I believe called Satan here we go. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4103">TS</a>]
01:08:29 ◼ ► And and he he's been a long time critic I gather of Final Draft [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4109">TS</a>]
01:08:34 ◼ ► and that's one of the reasons why he started writing his own because he hated soundtracks so much so he started writing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4114">TS</a>]
01:08:40 ◼ ► And and he's clearly you know a programmer tech guy but also a film guy and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4120">TS</a>]
01:08:47 ◼ ► and he he put down here I'll put Lincoln a general view. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4127">TS</a>]
01:08:50 ◼ ► He broke down exactly some of the problems with with final draft technically like for instance that it still doesn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4130">TS</a>]
01:09:00 ◼ ► Like really like a major major shortcomings [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4140">TS</a>]
01:09:04 ◼ ► and that one of the reasons why why they had so much trouble going Retton was not necessarily because it was using [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4144">TS</a>]
01:09:11 ◼ ► carbon if you can do right now with carbon it's because they were using a quick draw which was deprecated what twenty [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4151">TS</a>]
01:09:19 ◼ ► years ago ten years ago a long time ago at any rate they thought of quite some technical debt. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4159">TS</a>]
01:09:27 ◼ ► And so there's there's some problems there. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4167">TS</a>]
01:09:30 ◼ ► Basically seems like they wrote this application you know in the eighty's and ninety's and have not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4170">TS</a>]
01:09:37 ◼ ► and have been kind of sitting on it and not doing the really hard migrations and not modernizing all this time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4177">TS</a>]
01:09:44 ◼ ► and then all of a sudden they were forced to by the customers with things like retina [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4184">TS</a>]
01:09:48 ◼ ► and they were forced to sell it as quickly and it became a really big thing. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4188">TS</a>]
01:09:52 ◼ ► And so it's a pretty typical story of pretty severe technical dead being. No word for way too long. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4192">TS</a>]
01:10:02 ◼ ► I think what I got out of what out of the C.E.O.'s comments attitude was that you know he wants to make all of his [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4202">TS</a>]
01:10:12 ◼ ► and this is something you know the reason why I think it's important for developers to hear this is because you can you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4212">TS</a>]
01:10:18 ◼ ► can see both sides of it you can see the C.E.O. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4218">TS</a>]
01:10:22 ◼ ► Arguing the business side and the difficulties of the business side [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4222">TS</a>]
01:10:27 ◼ ► and then you can see the customers arguing that well you know your business stuff is your problem [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4227">TS</a>]
01:10:32 ◼ ► and it's not serving us at all and you're kind of treating us badly in your product needs a lot of work [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4232">TS</a>]
01:10:37 ◼ ► and it's really stagnant and I think it is. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4237">TS</a>]
01:10:39 ◼ ► So you can see both sides of it and you can kind of see like as as a as a programmer or as a as a. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4239">TS</a>]
01:10:45 ◼ ► So she has you know a company owner if you own your own company [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4245">TS</a>]
01:10:47 ◼ ► or make your own products you can see how you could become that C.E.O. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4247">TS</a>]
01:10:52 ◼ ► and It should scare the crap out of you because that's a plausible outcome for somebody software developers. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4252">TS</a>]
01:10:58 ◼ ► I think developers should listen to this because it's people with technical knowledge of both sides of the software [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4258">TS</a>]
01:11:04 ◼ ► industry or people who like was in the spot Gaz or just mac nerds [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4264">TS</a>]
01:11:08 ◼ ► or into the into development thing will have the unique experience of listening to a podcast with two camps of angry [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4268">TS</a>]
01:11:14 ◼ ► people both of whom are just massively wrong at the fundamental level about the major points of their arguments like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4274">TS</a>]
01:11:20 ◼ ► the customers are wrong about like your products should be free [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4280">TS</a>]
01:11:23 ◼ ► and how hard is it to do this is like you know from the outside they think everything is easy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4283">TS</a>]
01:11:27 ◼ ► and I think everything should be free [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4287">TS</a>]
01:11:29 ◼ ► and Apple gives away the Oh as for free why can't you give away final referee like that just so I don't feel like you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4289">TS</a>]
01:11:34 ◼ ► know where they're coming from but it's like man they have no idea whether I was a software and as Mark I'm going out. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4294">TS</a>]
01:11:41 ◼ ► Is being defensive in ways that are not appropriate for his job as it's all like it's his job to figure out a way to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4301">TS</a>]
01:11:48 ◼ ► keep your software up to date. So you know don't. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4308">TS</a>]
01:11:51 ◼ ► Those are all your problems you have to figure out a way that's that's called being a software entrepreneur. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4311">TS</a>]
01:11:55 ◼ ► Like you have to print stuff out you can't throw it back in customers faces and say you don't realize. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4315">TS</a>]
01:12:00 ◼ ► It is really hard to do this and it's clear that the C.E.O. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4320">TS</a>]
01:12:02 ◼ ► Doesn't have a lot of technical knowledge so he doesn't even know the detail things like I thought I want to jump into [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4322">TS</a>]
01:12:07 ◼ ► the podcast and explain to each one of them why they want why they're both wrong new customers. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4327">TS</a>]
01:12:12 ◼ ► But things can't be free in your crazy let me explain why you're reading the wrong [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4332">TS</a>]
01:12:15 ◼ ► and you see you know you don't even know why this is hard but it is really hard if you had a clue how hard it was. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4335">TS</a>]
01:12:20 ◼ ► You want to start on these transition years and years ago and yes they might have discerned your company [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4340">TS</a>]
01:12:24 ◼ ► but like look how many other companies have been left in the wake of like not being able to keep up with the changes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4344">TS</a>]
01:12:28 ◼ ► and I was ten and I was like that's your job but you want to you want to be a big boy in the software world. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4348">TS</a>]
01:12:33 ◼ ► It's not easy like the I think there was something which started in classic macro us [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4353">TS</a>]
01:12:38 ◼ ► and it had to go through some of these attacks that had to go through all these things. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4358">TS</a>]
01:12:41 ◼ ► They had quick draw they had to get rid of that they were carbon they had to find a way to you know go on modern Then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4361">TS</a>]
01:12:47 ◼ ► they had to adopt unit code they had they went through like you know these are like at sui and like or taxed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4367">TS</a>]
01:12:53 ◼ ► and whatever the hell they've gone through multiple different underlying text engines you have to do that otherwise [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4373">TS</a>]
01:12:58 ◼ ► you're dead and you know some other nimble competitor who doesn't have your legacy concerns makes a new application [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4378">TS</a>]
01:13:03 ◼ ► and the only reason you think the sessile is because you're an entrenched interests [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4383">TS</a>]
01:13:06 ◼ ► or whatever like we've all seen this play out a million times so those two guys those two camps of people were just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4386">TS</a>]
01:13:13 ◼ ► both angry both talking past each other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4393">TS</a>]
01:13:15 ◼ ► and is both fundamentally wrong about about their complaints about the other person [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4395">TS</a>]
01:13:20 ◼ ► and you know you can't have an app that has a code base that you can't write an app in one nine hundred ninety [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4400">TS</a>]
01:13:28 ◼ ► and still be around in twenty fourteen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4408">TS</a>]
01:13:31 ◼ ► and not have to have gone through a few really painful transitions in that time unless you coast on like well we're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4411">TS</a>]
01:13:37 ◼ ► just so entrenched where the big really we can afford to like even if you do that your time you have a longer time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4417">TS</a>]
01:13:41 ◼ ► or but still a timer because like Eventually you're after the launch anymore [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4421">TS</a>]
01:13:44 ◼ ► and you're like Well now I guess is the time we have to move quicker it's like nope sorry too late now you dead. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4424">TS</a>]
01:13:49 ◼ ► Like I don't think final draft is in that situation yet because they are such an entrenched interest. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4429">TS</a>]
01:13:53 ◼ ► How look at Adobe Look how long it took them we mentioned the look last show look how long it took them to go. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4433">TS</a>]
01:13:57 ◼ ► Coco The only reason they can get away with that is because there are. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4437">TS</a>]
01:14:00 ◼ ► Photoshop you know we are Photo Shop we are the image editor we ate up all the other ones you know we bought Macromedia [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4440">TS</a>]
01:14:05 ◼ ► were like and even then like Eventually the O. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4445">TS</a>]
01:14:08 ◼ ► Us is like no seriously you got to be sixty four but you got to be Cocoa right. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4448">TS</a>]
01:14:12 ◼ ► Like even then they're forced upgrade but yeah the final cut didn't understand. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4452">TS</a>]
01:14:18 ◼ ► Doesn't seem to understand what his what his company does or should be doing. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4458">TS</a>]
01:14:23 ◼ ► Like what how does what is your company do. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4463">TS</a>]
01:14:25 ◼ ► We sell and maintain a software application like that's a dynamic business you can't just keep making the same thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4465">TS</a>]
01:14:35 ◼ ► I don't know expect everyone else to do your job for you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4475">TS</a>]
01:14:37 ◼ ► and to make it so that your have to your company doesn't have to do the hard things and I don't know. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4477">TS</a>]
01:14:43 ◼ ► Yeah and there were some quotes in this. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4483">TS</a>]
01:14:45 ◼ ► Only a handful that I'd like to quickly go over that that just really stuck out to me. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4485">TS</a>]
01:14:52 ◼ ► So one of them in actually John your T. Quoted it was. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4492">TS</a>]
01:14:56 ◼ ► Well this is John and Craig will will give us an entire operating system away for free. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4496">TS</a>]
01:15:03 ◼ ► No that wasn't them that was the C.E.O. Citing that as I was a problem that they had. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4503">TS</a>]
01:15:07 ◼ ► Yeah now I think it was think it was the C.E.O. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4507">TS</a>]
01:15:10 ◼ ► Pointed out to them that they make money from selling the phones [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4510">TS</a>]
01:15:12 ◼ ► but I think it was the the complaining customers who are saying it wasn't us it was something about like look how cheap [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4512">TS</a>]
01:15:19 ◼ ► software is like software has been devalued therefore your thing should be one dollar it's like selling it telling [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4519">TS</a>]
01:15:25 ◼ ► Adobe that for a shop should be free or like ten cents because Angry Birds are things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4525">TS</a>]
01:15:29 ◼ ► and well to be fair they were not complaining that final draft is not free. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4529">TS</a>]
01:15:36 ◼ ► From what I gather they were complaining twofold both that it is not a high end of quality product to be worth the high [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4536">TS</a>]
01:15:44 ◼ ► and that the upgrades are not worth the upgrade price because of how little progress is made relatively speaking in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4544">TS</a>]
01:15:51 ◼ ► each upgrade that would that seem like they're bigger complaint not that the app should be free or very very cheap. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4551">TS</a>]
01:15:56 ◼ ► It seems like they be very happy to pay two hundred fifty dollars for the. If it was a better app. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4556">TS</a>]
01:16:01 ◼ ► Well but even then they want to pay two hundred fifty dollars ten years ago and never pay again and just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4561">TS</a>]
01:16:06 ◼ ► and continually have the app updated [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4566">TS</a>]
01:16:08 ◼ ► and I didn't get that impression I don't I definitely got that impression that that's like yeah I did not that they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4568">TS</a>]
01:16:12 ◼ ► would that I think that I had the impression that they would have hated to spend two hundred fifty dollars way back [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4572">TS</a>]
01:16:17 ◼ ► when and then I just want that app to work forever and continue to be updated with the O. S. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4577">TS</a>]
01:16:22 ◼ ► and to get Unicode support never They all for free like they seem to have an entitlement complex that was not not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4582">TS</a>]
01:16:29 ◼ ► proportional to the value of the value that they're deriving from the software [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4589">TS</a>]
01:16:33 ◼ ► and it was kind of like compounded by the fact that this is crappy software that hasn't been updated so they feel [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4593">TS</a>]
01:16:37 ◼ ► burned by any amount of money to put towards it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4597">TS</a>]
01:16:40 ◼ ► I guess mostly because they have it revenge like they feel like they have to have this program because like everybody [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4600">TS</a>]
01:16:45 ◼ ► uses it I think that's that's the core of their dissatisfaction is like it's like an abusive relationship with like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4605">TS</a>]
01:16:51 ◼ ► well you have to get final draft everybody used graph and then you're already better at this thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4611">TS</a>]
01:16:56 ◼ ► and if it's not the most amazing program that does everything perfectly and then you just can be pissed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4616">TS</a>]
01:17:02 ◼ ► and they seem to be a lot wrong with this program I think Marco's is right though that I don't think they were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4622">TS</a>]
01:17:08 ◼ ► embittered necessarily about paying for it it just seems that they they thought that it was an order of magnitude too [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4628">TS</a>]
01:17:14 ◼ ► expensive and I'm making numbers up I'm putting words in their mouth [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4634">TS</a>]
01:17:17 ◼ ► but instead a two hundred fifty dollars it should be one hundred dollars up front for the first release. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4637">TS</a>]
01:17:21 ◼ ► And like twenty bucks for every supplementary release [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4641">TS</a>]
01:17:24 ◼ ► and additionally I think they were extremely embittered that these upgrades [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4644">TS</a>]
01:17:29 ◼ ► or updates whatever they call them were a heck of a lot of money [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4649">TS</a>]
01:17:32 ◼ ► and even I would probably agree to this a heck of a lot of money from really not that much. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4652">TS</a>]
01:17:36 ◼ ► Update right now it was cited several times I think it was one hundred dollars for the retina upgrade update whatever [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4656">TS</a>]
01:17:43 ◼ ► was like eighty bucks or something and like maybe I'm crazy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4663">TS</a>]
01:17:45 ◼ ► but who is that there's an application that I use for my livelihood I would pay eighty dollars for an upgrade like I do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4665">TS</a>]
01:17:51 ◼ ► I wouldn't blink at that because like I say you use Photoshop to do your work you're a graphic artist [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4671">TS</a>]
01:17:57 ◼ ► and authority that comes out and the only upgrade. Is that the U.I. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4677">TS</a>]
01:18:02 ◼ ► and at eighty dollars the upgrade I mean I would pay it would wouldn't any of you pay it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4682">TS</a>]
01:18:07 ◼ ► Yeah I mean I suppose I was like maybe we have different I guess we probably value software differently because we kind [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4687">TS</a>]
01:18:13 ◼ ► of know what goes into it but like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4693">TS</a>]
01:18:15 ◼ ► but it's not like it's like fifty grand I mean it's not you know it's not a site license the CAD program like they just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4695">TS</a>]
01:18:24 ◼ ► Like that's why I think they just they're getting used to the world where everything is like cheap or free and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4704">TS</a>]
01:18:29 ◼ ► but it's like. But this is part of your livelihood. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4709">TS</a>]
01:18:32 ◼ ► and I think it all gets back to it's because they don't like this till they feel like they're forced to use it if they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4712">TS</a>]
01:18:36 ◼ ► had their choice they would use something different and better and it's like if you're going to force me to buy it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4716">TS</a>]
01:18:41 ◼ ► and then and now suddenly I'm not happy about like say you hated Photoshop [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4721">TS</a>]
01:18:45 ◼ ► and you needed it for your work like this like say you hate Microsoft Word you have to get it because you deal with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4725">TS</a>]
01:18:49 ◼ ► or they insist that you send him everything in doc format right then you'd be pissed that the only you going to do like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4729">TS</a>]
01:18:56 ◼ ► an eighth grade office in the only change was that it was red and incompatible with Mavericks then you'd be best [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4736">TS</a>]
01:19:02 ◼ ► but it's mostly mostly just because you hate words so much that any money you put towards continuing this charade of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4742">TS</a>]
01:19:07 ◼ ► having to use this program to have other people like that's where I feel like they're coming from you I think it's that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4747">TS</a>]
01:19:13 ◼ ► but it's also that what was once a decent product has stagnated the impression I got and I've never used final draft [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4753">TS</a>]
01:19:20 ◼ ► but the impression I got was that it was at one point a good thing like what they were saying about how based on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4760">TS</a>]
01:19:29 ◼ ► or The printed document you could take a guess at about how long the script was that was very quote apparently [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4769">TS</a>]
01:19:34 ◼ ► something that the C.E.O. Seem to think that that was unique to them. Twenty ways. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4774">TS</a>]
01:19:39 ◼ ► The product started pretty solid and pretty good but kind of never really went anywhere and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4779">TS</a>]
01:19:47 ◼ ► and Craig were for example really I'm bitter that it took so long to get retina support in there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4787">TS</a>]
01:19:53 ◼ ► and then on top of that they got charged for and so they were saying the C.E.O. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4793">TS</a>]
01:19:55 ◼ ► You knew this was coming you knew this was coming how did you not figure this out how did you not do it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4795">TS</a>]
01:20:00 ◼ ► At first I was like well you know it's hard I still have my fast text update for I was seventeen I'm a slacker [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4800">TS</a>]
01:20:07 ◼ ► and I have better things to do with my time but you know I can understand that well then the C.E.O. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4807">TS</a>]
01:20:13 ◼ ► You know we're forty people and I think to myself OK so how did you not get retina done with forty people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4813">TS</a>]
01:20:21 ◼ ► but then later on he says well but ten fifteen percent of us are programmers. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4821">TS</a>]
01:20:25 ◼ ► What the hell is everyone else in sales and marketing in the best part was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4825">TS</a>]
01:20:29 ◼ ► when he said well you know how we learned about Iran. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4829">TS</a>]
01:20:32 ◼ ► Someone brought him brought a computer into the office [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4832">TS</a>]
01:20:35 ◼ ► and showed it to us if that's how you learn to read then shows you're not engaged with the platform on which you deploy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4835">TS</a>]
01:20:40 ◼ ► your software or even trivial. You don't even subscribe to MacWorld like you do nothing. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4840">TS</a>]
01:20:45 ◼ ► You know forget about going to see which of course you should do if your if your job is that you write software product [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4845">TS</a>]
01:20:50 ◼ ► for the mag for crying out loud. Right. Yeah this is kind of pressing like the C.E.O. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4850">TS</a>]
01:20:57 ◼ ► Like he did it himself and his company disservice by coming on this program [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4857">TS</a>]
01:21:01 ◼ ► and saying oh it seems because every word out of his mouth was like Mark I said it's like the answer to every single [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4861">TS</a>]
01:21:06 ◼ ► one of his comebacks was like that's your problem. That's not my problem. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4866">TS</a>]
01:21:10 ◼ ► But you know I mean it may be the natural way of things is that you've now painted yourself into a tactical corner [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4870">TS</a>]
01:21:16 ◼ ► and it will be a blessing for the industry because we can all give our money to the other hungry [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4876">TS</a>]
01:21:20 ◼ ► or developers who if they're on like people go through exact same cycles you get big become popular not update their [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4880">TS</a>]
01:21:25 ◼ ► software for a decade to crumble under their own weight and the cycle will continue. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4885">TS</a>]
01:21:30 ◼ ► But like that's not your customer's problems in any way shape or form [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4890">TS</a>]
01:21:33 ◼ ► and so like it's I don't I guess he doesn't have people telling him don't go on to a program [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4893">TS</a>]
01:21:38 ◼ ► and tell even what your customers are actually wrong about like everything should be free [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4898">TS</a>]
01:21:42 ◼ ► and you know it's not like you can click onto a program and and tell them about all your woes and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4902">TS</a>]
01:21:49 ◼ ► and now it's like I guess maybe he was hoping for empathy like that they would put themselves into his shoe as the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4909">TS</a>]
01:21:55 ◼ ► non-technical C.E.O. Of a company that made terrible strategic decisions for the past. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4915">TS</a>]
01:22:01 ◼ ► and I feel bad for you it's all right if I hear software I mean one of the one thing I noticed case you have this in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4921">TS</a>]
01:22:10 ◼ ► One of the one of the more interesting parts of of this dynamic I thought was that the C.E.O. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4930">TS</a>]
01:22:17 ◼ ► Opened the conversation basically by saying that they've done surveys [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4937">TS</a>]
01:22:22 ◼ ► and I believe it was ninety two percent of the of the people said that they are very happy with Final Draft [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4942">TS</a>]
01:22:28 ◼ ► and therefore they think they're doing great. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4948">TS</a>]
01:22:30 ◼ ► And like that's flawed in so many levels and they and and John [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4950">TS</a>]
01:22:35 ◼ ► and Craig briefly mention like well you know that's like that only people who responded to the survey which is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4955">TS</a>]
01:22:43 ◼ ► obviously going to be mostly people who like you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4963">TS</a>]
01:22:46 ◼ ► or you know like it's that's so not a random sample of what people think of your product. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4966">TS</a>]
01:22:52 ◼ ► And the C.E.O.'s entire attitude seem to just be that well we keep hearing from people who like it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4972">TS</a>]
01:23:02 ◼ ► and we don't have to like his attitude from the very beginning was we're fine because some people like us [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4982">TS</a>]
01:23:07 ◼ ► and therefore we don't need to make any changes at all and it's so easy for people to fall into that trap. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4987">TS</a>]
01:23:13 ◼ ► You know if you select what you're listening to and I've been I've never seen this app [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/4993">TS</a>]
01:23:20 ◼ ► and even I know everyone hates it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5000">TS</a>]
01:23:22 ◼ ► Like I know I've heard about this app for four years now about how much people hate this random you know Edge [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5002">TS</a>]
01:23:28 ◼ ► conversations here and there and not even being in the business I know people hate it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5008">TS</a>]
01:23:34 ◼ ► Obviously that's a pretty widespread problem [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5014">TS</a>]
01:23:37 ◼ ► and it's so easy it's so easy to surround yourself only by the the inputs that you want to believe. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5017">TS</a>]
01:23:44 ◼ ► I'm sure there's a term for that like there's it's so easy to fall into that that this guy honestly I think he honestly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5024">TS</a>]
01:23:50 ◼ ► thinks that everything's fine and he's in complete denial of any major problems [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5030">TS</a>]
01:23:55 ◼ ► and therefore that's I think why he was so we're. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5035">TS</a>]
01:24:00 ◼ ► and aggressive in his response I don't know if I really believe that he was sincere that he really believed that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5040">TS</a>]
01:24:06 ◼ ► but like it's possible the Nile is pretty strong but I think the reason you heard about it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5046">TS</a>]
01:24:10 ◼ ► and I have as well even though we're not screenwriters is because we travel in software development circles [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5050">TS</a>]
01:24:14 ◼ ► and anybody who knows anything about software can look at that location [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5054">TS</a>]
01:24:16 ◼ ► and you can you can smell like death on it you know even if even if you don't know if you think you're like oh jeez [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5056">TS</a>]
01:24:23 ◼ ► this program has not been updated for a while you see old I began I don't know years works [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5063">TS</a>]
01:24:27 ◼ ► but I bet we could pick up like it's using older controls that should be using newer ones like maybe for a long time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5067">TS</a>]
01:24:32 ◼ ► the text wasn't properly and the alias [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5072">TS</a>]
01:24:34 ◼ ► or looks like was rendered different exists Quickdraw unlike you know we could tell that that there are problems with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5074">TS</a>]
01:24:40 ◼ ► and the reason I think he may be right if you took a random sampling of their customer base is because their customer base [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5080">TS</a>]
01:24:46 ◼ ► are not technical people and they view this as kind of like especially since it's such an institution. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5086">TS</a>]
01:24:51 ◼ ► They view it as if you want to become a screenwriter. This is what you get and this is the tool you deal with. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5091">TS</a>]
01:24:58 ◼ ► but like you know you might as well complain about the weather because to do your job you have to use Final Draft in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5098">TS</a>]
01:25:03 ◼ ► the same way that you might say you have to use Photoshop if you're a graphic designer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5103">TS</a>]
01:25:07 ◼ ► and you just you know there's no no other choice out there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5107">TS</a>]
01:25:10 ◼ ► but they're non-technical people so they're not equipped to to understand what's wrong with this program and why. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5110">TS</a>]
01:25:15 ◼ ► And they're more willing to accept it like whatever's wrong just the way it is what can you do so in that respect they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5115">TS</a>]
01:25:25 ◼ ► but the thing that makes me think of in the worst case scenario is I will bet you in two thousand [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5125">TS</a>]
01:25:29 ◼ ► and seven two thousand and two does nine maybe even two thousand and ten. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5129">TS</a>]
01:25:32 ◼ ► If you were to survey all Black Berry users they'd say they love their Blackberry. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5132">TS</a>]
01:25:35 ◼ ► Doesn't matter black rim is still doing right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5135">TS</a>]
01:25:38 ◼ ► and you can thank all the people have Blackberries love it it's like yes but the time has passed that by [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5138">TS</a>]
01:25:43 ◼ ► and customers may have it and may love it and may be Stockholm Syndrome or the maybe not know better [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5143">TS</a>]
01:25:48 ◼ ► but like from the outside we all can see Bob Iger. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5148">TS</a>]
01:25:54 ◼ ► Yeah I think I found interesting about this and it's the only other quote that I that I want. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5154">TS</a>]
01:26:00 ◼ ► Bring up is apparently there was a feature called they called a collaborator which I guess was some sort of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5160">TS</a>]
01:26:06 ◼ ► collaborative writing thing where you can work on a screenplay two people can work on screenplay at the same time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5166">TS</a>]
01:26:12 ◼ ► something like that. Yeah that's a very that's a very good analogy. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5172">TS</a>]
01:26:17 ◼ ► And so they said and this should be pretty much for beta collaborator was built [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5177">TS</a>]
01:26:22 ◼ ► when it was on a peer to peer technology with no security. It would still work like that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5182">TS</a>]
01:26:29 ◼ ► when they built this feature that was designed to be used between two people probably not colocated they did it without [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5189">TS</a>]
01:26:38 ◼ ► even thinking about firewalls and I mostly wrote it in ninety six. Are you kidding. Like how is that OK. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5198">TS</a>]
01:26:47 ◼ ► And that just completely sealed the deal in my mind that screenwriters don't have firewalls care if you think they have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5207">TS</a>]
01:26:53 ◼ ► There are lonely people in their apartments with internet connection slaving away in the next great script [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5213">TS</a>]
01:26:59 ◼ ► and every router since nineteen since two thousand and one hasn't included a firewall in it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5219">TS</a>]
01:27:04 ◼ ► but he wouldn't know about this stuff anyway. He was talking about it but. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5224">TS</a>]
01:27:09 ◼ ► and that's the thing is even if that is such an obvious technical hurdle that you would have to get over to do that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5229">TS</a>]
01:27:16 ◼ ► kind of feature and they shipped it at least for a little while [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5236">TS</a>]
01:27:20 ◼ ► and I guess they've pulled it since they shipped it without even thinking about that like how is that possible. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5240">TS</a>]
01:27:26 ◼ ► It just reminds me that there are terrible software developers out there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5246">TS</a>]
01:27:30 ◼ ► or if these developers are good just on believably indescribably out of touch management or both. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5250">TS</a>]
01:27:36 ◼ ► If I was on a podcast I would have also brought the MET a point which is that the screenwriting format is ridiculous [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5256">TS</a>]
01:27:43 ◼ ► than anachronistic and really deserves to be destroyed and torn down [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5263">TS</a>]
01:27:48 ◼ ► and it is held aloft by the collective you know by tradition basically this is the way it's always done this is what a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5268">TS</a>]
01:27:54 ◼ ► screenplay looks like. Let me tell you about all the great qualities of it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5274">TS</a>]
01:27:57 ◼ ► Oh you can always tell exactly how long the thing will be in minutes by looking. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5277">TS</a>]
01:28:00 ◼ ► Number of pages always or number of pages every day. Everyone knows it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5280">TS</a>]
01:28:03 ◼ ► Like it can continue to be held aloft by that like sort of oral tradition and indoctrination of new people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5283">TS</a>]
01:28:09 ◼ ► and it is true that this is what a screenplay looks like. But the format is dumb it is not like it's my space font. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5289">TS</a>]
01:28:15 ◼ ► It's formatted crazily lots of things are in all caps and everyone who enters the industry and I really get used to it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5295">TS</a>]
01:28:21 ◼ ► Come to like it and will not accept any other format [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5301">TS</a>]
01:28:24 ◼ ► but bottom line objectively wipe out all the people who've ever seen a screenplay. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5304">TS</a>]
01:28:28 ◼ ► Show them this for a show the new people. This format they'll be like is like it is it is not of this time. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5308">TS</a>]
01:28:33 ◼ ► It is of a different time of a time of typewriters and one is based on an all caps and not you know it's dumb. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5313">TS</a>]
01:28:42 ◼ ► The ideal thing to happen for the entire industry would be to not only for a final draft to be disrupted [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5322">TS</a>]
01:28:46 ◼ ► but for the entire screenplay format to be replaced by something better. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5326">TS</a>]
01:28:50 ◼ ► I have dim hopes of that ever happening because of that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5330">TS</a>]
01:28:52 ◼ ► Any group of people who is not not raring for you know amazing disruption innovation is screenwriters [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5332">TS</a>]
01:28:59 ◼ ► and entertainment is true they just want their format they want to be the way it is. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5339">TS</a>]
01:29:01 ◼ ► They just want slightly better tools to work on and they will consider that a big victory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5341">TS</a>]
01:29:05 ◼ ► but from the outside it's clear that the screenplay format is stupid. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5345">TS</a>]
01:29:09 ◼ ► Well and to be fair in the fall of episode of their pod cast John and Craig did address that a little bit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5349">TS</a>]
01:29:15 ◼ ► and talking about things like how the one paid for minute thing is this kind of elementary assumption that you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5355">TS</a>]
01:29:21 ◼ ► it's like three paragraph essay you're taught in middle school it's you know it's like it's a very basic thing that you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5361">TS</a>]
01:29:26 ◼ ► know in practice once you get once you're a real professional It doesn't really it's not that simple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5366">TS</a>]
01:29:32 ◼ ► or it's not necessary to rely on things you know assumptions like that are these tenets like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5372">TS</a>]
01:29:37 ◼ ► and there's also this thing called Fountain which from what I gather is like a markdown like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5377">TS</a>]
01:29:42 ◼ ► or markdown based plain text format that doesn't weigh with manual pagination or stuff like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5382">TS</a>]
01:29:48 ◼ ► and it doesn't what they are actually moving forward [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5388">TS</a>]
01:29:50 ◼ ► and the problem really seems to be that that final draft is not his final draft has this this position. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5390">TS</a>]
01:30:03 ◼ ► or at least they have to date where they were the standard of they have their own file format [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5403">TS</a>]
01:30:08 ◼ ► and there they are like you know they're relying on these invariants that OK well pagination matters above all else [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5408">TS</a>]
01:30:16 ◼ ► and all of the stuff and the reality is the industries being disrupted. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5416">TS</a>]
01:30:22 ◼ ► Just like so many other technical industries where now there's a whole lot of other apps coming out some of them cheap [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5422">TS</a>]
01:30:29 ◼ ► and terrible but some of them good that are doing things more in a more modern way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5429">TS</a>]
01:30:35 ◼ ► and that's the problem like you know just like so many other industries. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5435">TS</a>]
01:30:41 ◼ ► I don't think it's going to be I don't think final draft is going to be disrupted [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5441">TS</a>]
01:30:45 ◼ ► and replaced by one thing I think is going to end up being diverted and replaced by a few standards [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5445">TS</a>]
01:30:51 ◼ ► and then a few different apps they read the reader write the standards [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5451">TS</a>]
01:30:54 ◼ ► and it seems like this fountain format is probably going to be that standard [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5454">TS</a>]
01:30:58 ◼ ► but again I think by now all three of us are talking us and we all know nothing about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5458">TS</a>]
01:31:04 ◼ ► and we're going to get all the e-mail people explaining the various features of the screenplay format that were created [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5464">TS</a>]
01:31:09 ◼ ► intentionally for a specific reason and like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5469">TS</a>]
01:31:10 ◼ ► and I'm sure like the formatting in the layout Everything has had a purpose originally [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5470">TS</a>]
01:31:14 ◼ ► but some aspects of it are really just artifacts of the technology that was available at the time specifically you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5474">TS</a>]
01:31:22 ◼ ► The layout being done basically by serious spaces of the model space finally all those things are done because that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5482">TS</a>]
01:31:27 ◼ ► what you had that's how you know you were going to typeset it like a book because that's not efficient for the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5487">TS</a>]
01:31:32 ◼ ► production process you need people to be able to type these things up. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5492">TS</a>]
01:31:34 ◼ ► It's kind of the same way that you see like the the opening parentheses used to make ASCII art to make the little boxes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5494">TS</a>]
01:31:40 ◼ ► on the front of legal documents Mark along with this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5500">TS</a>]
01:31:43 ◼ ► but I don't like the fact that so it doesn't really matter as much in legal arguments like whatever lawyers everything [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5503">TS</a>]
01:31:48 ◼ ► they do is all made up and crazy with their legal language. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5508">TS</a>]
01:31:50 ◼ ► But screenplays could benefit from a farmer that took advantage from of modern technology keep all the good stuff about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5510">TS</a>]
01:31:56 ◼ ► the old format in terms of visually blocking out things with whitespace. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5516">TS</a>]
01:32:00 ◼ ► So making it easy for actors to read [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5520">TS</a>]
01:32:01 ◼ ► and you know all I don't I'm just making up what the features may be of the four [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5521">TS</a>]
01:32:04 ◼ ► and there are probably good things about the former [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5524">TS</a>]
01:32:06 ◼ ► but the bad things are just being carried along like those parentheses on legal documents [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5526">TS</a>]
01:32:11 ◼ ► and they just they just ridiculous at this point. OK thanks lead to our three sponsors this week. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5531">TS</a>]
01:32:18 ◼ ► Picture life help spot and square space. And we will see you next week. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5538">TS</a>]
01:32:25 ◼ ► Now this it was accidental accidental because it was there until today. Except that the Michael Casey. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5545">TS</a>]
01:33:27 ◼ ► So I cannot believe I let you railroad me. Well that's good notes and timely. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5607">TS</a>]
01:33:34 ◼ ► and Margo could have we're going to months you know Casey had insisted I would have gone along with it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5614">TS</a>]
01:33:38 ◼ ► He didn't really and stain I did I'd say I gave my thing about abstaining from the vote. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5618">TS</a>]
01:33:44 ◼ ► I was what I was trying to convince Casey was that not getting it done today does not mean it will never get done [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5624">TS</a>]
01:33:50 ◼ ► and in fact it may be done better in the future but he still kind of insisted and I would not have opposed him. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5630">TS</a>]
01:33:54 ◼ ► What would you do next week will say right now next week we saw from mental methodologies and nothing will happen. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5634">TS</a>]
01:34:00 ◼ ► Old statement when I went out of I've Been Turned out we won't talk about it all. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5640">TS</a>]
01:34:05 ◼ ► God Now you've changed it and will never talk about it ever. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5645">TS</a>]
01:34:09 ◼ ► and if it results in Apple buying Nintendo you're your sacrifice will have been noble you are you saying that we will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5649">TS</a>]
01:34:19 ◼ ► do it next week. Whether or not you're serious has pretty much absolutely prevented that from happening ever. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5659">TS</a>]
01:34:26 ◼ ► That's that's the equivalent of saying well this will be short show. If Apple doesn't send. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5666">TS</a>]
01:34:34 ◼ ► And there's no John Syracuse a podcast to talk about it didn't really happen on this my third part cast in like three [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5674">TS</a>]
01:34:42 ◼ ► days comparable to command space now we're doing this as a how to just take a rest. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5682">TS</a>]
01:34:48 ◼ ► The it really for the unknown handsomest. I hate you too. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5688">TS</a>]
01:34:54 ◼ ► I know that we didn't even talk about driving with glass there was not another remark [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5694">TS</a>]
01:34:58 ◼ ► or topic yeah I mean why it is that much more to say on it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5698">TS</a>]
01:35:01 ◼ ► I just want to say that I have looked into the zero amount as is my way for the show but what I assumed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5701">TS</a>]
01:35:07 ◼ ► when I saw the headline about storing flying blind Twitter was that they were only lobbying to allow you to wear it in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5707">TS</a>]
01:35:12 ◼ ► the car like for example if you get it with prescription lenses [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5712">TS</a>]
01:35:15 ◼ ► and you need them to see to drive they didn't want they want to make it illegal so you didn't want to be illegal for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5715">TS</a>]
01:35:22 ◼ ► I didn't think they were lobbying for it to be legal for you to to have it turned on and using it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5722">TS</a>]
01:35:27 ◼ ► but since I didn't read any article that is there I don't know did you know did you read them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5727">TS</a>]
01:35:30 ◼ ► and you can tell me I don't think we I don't think we know that much to that much detail. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5730">TS</a>]
01:35:36 ◼ ► Hell my little justice here I've merely heard mostly support of my position [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5736">TS</a>]
01:35:44 ◼ ► and brief in my position is that for Google to to lobby to actively lobby against states that want to prohibit glassed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5744">TS</a>]
01:35:53 ◼ ► use while driving. I think that's incredibly irresponsible by Google and you know it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5753">TS</a>]
01:36:00 ◼ ► I think it's you know pretty much all reasonable people agree that texting while driving is dangerous [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5760">TS</a>]
01:36:06 ◼ ► and should be prohibited. And certainly avoided. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5766">TS</a>]
01:36:11 ◼ ► People will do it anyway but I think I think even people who do it know that it's unsafe [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5771">TS</a>]
01:36:15 ◼ ► and wouldn't really argue that strongly that it that it was safe and I think texting while driving [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5775">TS</a>]
01:36:21 ◼ ► and using Google Glass are pretty close. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5781">TS</a>]
01:36:25 ◼ ► Like I don't think there's a huge difference in safety in a car between doing those two things I don't think one is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5785">TS</a>]
01:36:32 ◼ ► dramatically more safe in the other. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5792">TS</a>]
01:36:34 ◼ ► It's both like it's engaging your visual attention in a way that like us like interact with like a multi-step process [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5794">TS</a>]
01:36:44 ◼ ► with a computer system where you're not looking at the road [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5804">TS</a>]
01:36:46 ◼ ► and well actually now that I've thought about it for the five minutes they've talked. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5806">TS</a>]
01:36:50 ◼ ► What about if they are envisioning something like that why don't your in five there in arguments that people have made [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5810">TS</a>]
01:36:57 ◼ ► that say things like well this is just like looking at an afternoon or it's just like looking at a heads up display [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5817">TS</a>]
01:37:03 ◼ ► and I think the difference is that you know a net first of all natural [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5823">TS</a>]
01:37:08 ◼ ► and heads of displays are designed very very carefully and conservatively to be like maximally safe [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5828">TS</a>]
01:37:15 ◼ ► and also to minimize how long you have to look at them in ideal cases some of them go as far to be like you can even [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5835">TS</a>]
01:37:23 ◼ ► like some of them or even let you enter an address in navigation if you're moving for instance. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5843">TS</a>]
01:37:27 ◼ ► There's all sorts of safety things that that car systems use to either prevent [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5847">TS</a>]
01:37:32 ◼ ► or discourage you from using it very responsibly things like you know how D.V.D. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5852">TS</a>]
01:37:37 ◼ ► Players like sometimes there are be these D.V.D. Players that will complete video in the front seat. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5857">TS</a>]
01:37:41 ◼ ► But you can only totally play while you're parked and yes some people will will pack then disable it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5861">TS</a>]
01:37:45 ◼ ► but like there's all these things in place for for things that are installed in cars especially things that come stock [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5865">TS</a>]
01:37:50 ◼ ► from the manufacturers. There's all these safety in place to to try to make them as non distracting as possible. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5870">TS</a>]
01:37:58 ◼ ► And like. A heads up display displaying your speed. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5878">TS</a>]
01:38:03 ◼ ► Well that's you know that's no more distracting than a speedometer you don't have a lot of reasons to like stare at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5883">TS</a>]
01:38:09 ◼ ► Well what are the heads up display in your glasses showing now overlaid on the street in front of you. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5889">TS</a>]
01:38:13 ◼ ► If that is what it's showing that's fine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5893">TS</a>]
01:38:16 ◼ ► but I think again this is like a human nature human behavior kind of thing the reality is like we've banned in most [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5896">TS</a>]
01:38:25 ◼ ► places we've banned handheld use of cell phones. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5905">TS</a>]
01:38:28 ◼ ► Now you could also say well what if you're using the cell phone in your hand looking into navigation screen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5908">TS</a>]
01:38:34 ◼ ► and that's in place where hand-held cell phone use is banned that spent [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5914">TS</a>]
01:38:39 ◼ ► and I think is one of those cases where you know the reason why that's banned is that yeah maybe you might be doing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5919">TS</a>]
01:38:45 ◼ ► but there's also a very good chance that a lot of people who do that are also going to like you know sent a quick text [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5925">TS</a>]
01:38:53 ◼ ► and there's all this all this potential for these multipurpose general computing systems like smartphones like glass. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5933">TS</a>]
01:38:59 ◼ ► There's all this potential for misuse and misuse is so easy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5939">TS</a>]
01:39:03 ◼ ► and so common that they should probably ban it out right because they know that like you might be using for navigation. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5943">TS</a>]
01:39:12 ◼ ► But there's a pretty good chance you're not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5952">TS</a>]
01:39:13 ◼ ► or there are so many other things to do with it there are navigation that you know in reality people would like be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5953">TS</a>]
01:39:19 ◼ ► reading a text message or dictate they're taking a message [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5959">TS</a>]
01:39:22 ◼ ► or reading Twitter reading e-mail just came in are like like they're like there are so many potential abuses there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5962">TS</a>]
01:39:28 ◼ ► and is so it is so much more distracting than in the car systems because you're interacting with a computer at that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5968">TS</a>]
01:39:35 ◼ ► point like you're like it's a multi-step interaction. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5975">TS</a>]
01:39:38 ◼ ► You're like visually engaging in a way that it's non-trivial and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5978">TS</a>]
01:39:41 ◼ ► and takes more than a split second of your attention and so I do think there's a significant difference there. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5981">TS</a>]
01:39:49 ◼ ► and some people also said like oh well what of glass is you know what if you can where you have to keep it off again. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5989">TS</a>]
01:39:56 ◼ ► Same thing like how you can tell from the outside whether it's. On or off. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/5996">TS</a>]
01:40:02 ◼ ► and say oh well you know I was going to leave it on because you know I'm responsible I'll be OK [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6002">TS</a>]
01:40:07 ◼ ► Well that's why I'd like to know what Google was lobbying for like basically where they're lobbying for you're allowed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6007">TS</a>]
01:40:11 ◼ ► to wear but has to be offices you're allowed to wear it and use it like I'm pretty sure was the latter [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6011">TS</a>]
01:40:15 ◼ ► and I'm pretty sure they didn't distinguish between on and off that they just want you to be able to wear. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6015">TS</a>]
01:40:19 ◼ ► Yeah well like I think Google's bet and I think they're right in this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6019">TS</a>]
01:40:22 ◼ ► but is that augmented reality as they call it is probably the future of more or less everything [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6022">TS</a>]
01:40:26 ◼ ► but I think you're right that if that is the future thing we are unfortunately going to have to wait for it to be built [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6026">TS</a>]
01:40:31 ◼ ► into cars because then it will be more or less single purpose [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6031">TS</a>]
01:40:36 ◼ ► and even if it's the exact same technology the exact same kind of display were like overlays that have on top of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6036">TS</a>]
01:40:41 ◼ ► and shows you where you should term of the wire like you can imagine lots of really cool features like this I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6041">TS</a>]
01:40:46 ◼ ► and looking down at an ab screen like to see the little arrow in your little picture of your car going if you could [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6046">TS</a>]
01:40:51 ◼ ► just continue to look out the window and just look like a little red line was painted on the road turning to the right. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6051">TS</a>]
01:40:56 ◼ ► That's safer and I think that is definitely coming. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6056">TS</a>]
01:40:58 ◼ ► If that comes from your glasses though chances are good even if you have like a driving mode [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6058">TS</a>]
01:41:03 ◼ ► and that the glasses have to be certified by a like the Highway Association like it's so much safer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6063">TS</a>]
01:41:10 ◼ ► and because car technology moves so slowly that they're super conservative everything sucks there anyway [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6070">TS</a>]
01:41:14 ◼ ► and B if it's built into the car the car maker is extremely motivated to make sure that you can't read text on it right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6074">TS</a>]
01:41:20 ◼ ► like in the car the car maker could not ship that they're more liable with that kind of stuff like like you could you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6080">TS</a>]
01:41:27 ◼ ► could plausibly sue the car maker for designing a very threatening system a lot more easily than you could sue Google [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6087">TS</a>]
01:41:34 ◼ ► Built into the cargoes going to say you shouldn't have been doing that while you're driving [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6094">TS</a>]
01:41:37 ◼ ► but you're like if it's built into the car you say you put it in the car. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6097">TS</a>]
01:41:41 ◼ ► Exactly and that's why that's why you can do the address [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6101">TS</a>]
01:41:43 ◼ ► when you're moving because the car makers like we allow them to do this they will they'll crash [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6103">TS</a>]
01:41:47 ◼ ► and also us for what it's worth I can actually read text messages on my i drive in my B.M.W. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6107">TS</a>]
01:41:53 ◼ ► Like on the screen but usually crashing as a means of B.M.W. Get their car. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6113">TS</a>]
01:42:00 ◼ ► Just want to point that out real quick I'm sorry Mark I'm going to act. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6120">TS</a>]
01:42:03 ◼ ► All right so part of my position on this was was a pretty severe condemnation saying like you know if Google Google is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6123">TS</a>]
01:42:11 ◼ ► actively lobbying for something that I believe is pretty clearly very unsafe for driving [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6131">TS</a>]
01:42:18 ◼ ► and car accidents are are no joke like it's a really car accident or a serious problem. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6138">TS</a>]
01:42:25 ◼ ► So many people get injured or die in car accidents. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6145">TS</a>]
01:42:29 ◼ ► And for the most part you know things that we pay a lot of attention to like plane crashes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6149">TS</a>]
01:42:34 ◼ ► and terrorism like that end up killing way fewer people than car crashes car crashes are a big problem. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6154">TS</a>]
01:42:41 ◼ ► It's a really big deal and car safety should really be taken very very seriously and not at all lightly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6161">TS</a>]
01:42:49 ◼ ► And so for Google to actively lobby against car safety basically to actually lobby for their own self interest in a way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6169">TS</a>]
01:42:58 ◼ ► that's that pretty clearly unsafe in general use for cars like people are probably going to die as a result of that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6178">TS</a>]
01:43:07 ◼ ► And if Google Glass becomes really popular which you know it probably won't in all honesty but I suppose it does. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6187">TS</a>]
01:43:15 ◼ ► Imagine how big of a problem that will be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6195">TS</a>]
01:43:17 ◼ ► and how many people might unnecessarily die because Google fought safety legislation. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6197">TS</a>]
01:43:23 ◼ ► That's a really that's that's serious. You know that's not a joking matter at all. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6203">TS</a>]
01:43:27 ◼ ► So a lot of people said well isn't Apple at fault for people texting while using their phones and crashing and. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6207">TS</a>]
01:43:35 ◼ ► No that's a completely different situation because Apple has not to my knowledge actively fought against anti texting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6215">TS</a>]
01:43:42 ◼ ► laws. And if they have let me know I mean I would love to know that. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6222">TS</a>]
01:43:47 ◼ ► But that is not at all the same thing and is not comparable. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6227">TS</a>]
01:43:52 ◼ ► You know it's obviously manufacturers on both sides of this political debate. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6232">TS</a>]
01:44:00 ◼ ► When both sides can potentially do more to prevent people from using their phones while driving. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6240">TS</a>]
01:44:06 ◼ ► You know now you can you can think OK Well Apple has this new M seven processor that can supposedly detect [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6246">TS</a>]
01:44:13 ◼ ► It probably can't tell whether you're driving or passenger but if you take [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6253">TS</a>]
01:44:17 ◼ ► when you're in a car make you show some kind of warning or something you know there are things they could do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6257">TS</a>]
01:44:20 ◼ ► but they're not like actively fighting against safety legislation [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6260">TS</a>]
01:44:26 ◼ ► and that that I think puts a very different type of action. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6266">TS</a>]
01:44:30 ◼ ► Like who is doing I think is actively harmful whereas the inability to try to prevent people from texting in a car is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6270">TS</a>]
01:44:40 ◼ ► you know like like inaction is is not as bad as like actively harming safety actions I think. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6280">TS</a>]
01:44:46 ◼ ► Well Google also in a position to potentially bring the largest safety increase in car transportation ever which is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6286">TS</a>]
01:44:52 ◼ ► through their soft riving cars assuming that continues apace and does not fade away [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6292">TS</a>]
01:44:56 ◼ ► and there continue to be successful with it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6296">TS</a>]
01:44:59 ◼ ► I'm not saying that balances out like Therefore you're allowed to do something is going to kill more people now that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6299">TS</a>]
01:45:03 ◼ ► a bad idea but but it's like historically speaking. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6303">TS</a>]
01:45:07 ◼ ► If history goes out every More forget that briefly they killed a bunch of people less I think what they're thinking is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6307">TS</a>]
01:45:15 ◼ ► on the glasses that they also believe that all humans in reality is the future just look at their crazy whatever there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6315">TS</a>]
01:45:21 ◼ ► was that thing with the phone thing the maps out there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6321">TS</a>]
01:45:23 ◼ ► and they're in like the tech for doing that are going to realize stuff is getting better [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6323">TS</a>]
01:45:26 ◼ ► and better all the time it's going to be everywhere [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6326">TS</a>]
01:45:28 ◼ ► and Google is like if we wait for the car makers to do this it will take forever to get here it will be crappy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6328">TS</a>]
01:45:34 ◼ ► but I think they just have to like the alternative is they should either make their own car with this built [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6334">TS</a>]
01:45:39 ◼ ► and say buy Tesla go nuts like you have have a go at it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6339">TS</a>]
01:45:42 ◼ ► but trying to put it into a general purpose computing device that you wear in your face [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6342">TS</a>]
01:45:47 ◼ ► and you have to get everyone to wear the stuff in your face [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6347">TS</a>]
01:45:49 ◼ ► and be like they would have they would have to sign up for all of the sort of liability type concerns that the car [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6349">TS</a>]
01:45:55 ◼ ► makers do in terms of regulation and everything and like it there. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6355">TS</a>]
01:46:00 ◼ ► If they want they want the freedom to do whatever the hell they want [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6360">TS</a>]
01:46:03 ◼ ► and just don't bother us because eventually we're going to get to this awesome auger into reality it's coming [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6363">TS</a>]
01:46:08 ◼ ► eventually anyway and we're going to get there first because we can move faster but that's playing a little bit fast [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6368">TS</a>]
01:46:13 ◼ ► and loose with with people's lives I agree. And that also that also seems like almost a childish and naive. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6373">TS</a>]
01:46:22 ◼ ► Exactly I think that's a problem it's like well that's what that's what we love about that's what I love about Google. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6382">TS</a>]
01:46:27 ◼ ► Like the self-doubt in cars is the same type of thing that's what we love about it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6387">TS</a>]
01:46:30 ◼ ► but in the same time it gets them into that like that's why I always think of Google's corporate mindset not as evil [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6390">TS</a>]
01:46:37 ◼ ► more as like a naive hacker type of you know like Dan is in a Reddit like technology is cool we can do cool things with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6397">TS</a>]
01:46:45 ◼ ► technology and I just go do that cool things because it's cool and let's not think too much about the consequences [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6405">TS</a>]
01:46:50 ◼ ► or whether all make money or anything like that you know that's what we love both love and hate about Will. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6410">TS</a>]
01:46:57 ◼ ► Titles go to fail the house the title might go to fell some put in all caps this isn't basic. Have you seen the code. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6417">TS</a>]
01:47:06 ◼ ► Oh yeah that's one point we didn't dress about the goat isn't that on your dress. All the people who've never seen a C. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6426">TS</a>]
01:47:11 ◼ ► Programmer Unix C. Programmer like goto who uses that if you are a C. Programmer and you come from the. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6431">TS</a>]
01:47:19 ◼ ► Just look at the source code to your favorite you know look at B.S.D. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6439">TS</a>]
01:47:22 ◼ ► Look at Linux or wherever you find go to everywhere because they didn't really have exceptions [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6442">TS</a>]
01:47:27 ◼ ► and the control flow necessary with lots of nested it's to get you out of an if you end up having to make like Flag [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6447">TS</a>]
01:47:34 ◼ ► variables and really contorted logic. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6454">TS</a>]
01:47:37 ◼ ► Go to is actually the cleanest solution in those situations where you want to get out of the normal flow of the program [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6457">TS</a>]
01:47:42 ◼ ► and go down to it you know or you can do set jumper [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6462">TS</a>]
01:47:45 ◼ ► or any of that whatever you want to go to is is the idiom that believe it or not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6465">TS</a>]
01:47:48 ◼ ► and the only thing you've heard about programming is the GOTO is evil because there's a paper that you never read that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6468">TS</a>]
01:47:53 ◼ ► got passed around the Internet ten years ago. But look at any real C. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6473">TS</a>]
01:47:57 ◼ ► Source code and go to is there and it's use for exact. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6477">TS</a>]
01:48:00 ◼ ► There is purpose and it has all the same problems and this is not what the paper about goto was against really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6480">TS</a>]
01:48:05 ◼ ► but you can see goto does contribute to this anti pattern [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6485">TS</a>]
01:48:08 ◼ ► but you know that's why newer better languages have exceptions. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6488">TS</a>]
01:48:13 ◼ ► Yeah and you know and like the GOTO is like there's things like break [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6493">TS</a>]
01:48:16 ◼ ► and continue in a loop that I would argue break [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6496">TS</a>]
01:48:19 ◼ ► and continue especially break like that's really not a whole lot cleaner than goes here like if you think about it like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6499">TS</a>]
01:48:27 ◼ ► but you knew like if you had like a very contorted logically condition a condition a condition you want to break all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6507">TS</a>]
01:48:32 ◼ ► the way out of it then you even break doesn't save you then you didn't have a flag variables [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6512">TS</a>]
01:48:36 ◼ ► and it makes the code in comprehensible to the people who read up the functional a bit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6516">TS</a>]
01:48:40 ◼ ► and saw the type of the variable status. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6520">TS</a>]
01:48:44 ◼ ► Pretty sure if you knew what that was you were not surprised to see the go to the flick that's that's like you know if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6524">TS</a>]
01:48:49 ◼ ► you've if you've been around old C. A.P.I. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6529">TS</a>]
01:48:52 ◼ ► As long enough you know you've probably seen that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6532">TS</a>]
01:48:55 ◼ ► and it's you know it's a little thing words like you call a bunch of A.P.I. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6535">TS</a>]
01:48:58 ◼ ► Calls and if they return zero everything's cool. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6538">TS</a>]
01:49:01 ◼ ► And if they return non-zero something bad happened [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6541">TS</a>]
01:49:04 ◼ ► and so if you want to do that's like you know eight step process Recall is a different functions [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6544">TS</a>]
01:49:09 ◼ ► and you have to have Eric check in code around every single one of them if any of these return non-zero fail that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6549">TS</a>]
01:49:15 ◼ ► what this was that's exactly what this was and and and fail in this case but the fail label didn't mean it has failed. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6555">TS</a>]
01:49:24 ◼ ► The Fair Labor was the destination of where to jump to if it had if it had failed looks basically like go to the end [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6564">TS</a>]
01:49:31 ◼ ► like go to the end of this logic block that's what it was. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6571">TS</a>]
01:49:34 ◼ ► That's another object to see a thing that we could have talked about and I hope and point and shows the convention [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6574">TS</a>]
01:49:39 ◼ ► and basically cocoanuts want to receive a Coke which not use exception exceptions for control flow is that correct. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6579">TS</a>]
01:49:46 ◼ ► Yeah yeah I mean except like injective see objections like bye bye like policy and. And like the A.P.I. Norm objects. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6586">TS</a>]
01:49:57 ◼ ► Exceptions are not meant to happen in. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6597">TS</a>]
01:50:00 ◼ ► In running code most of the time like it's not meant to be control flows easily gets They're meant like you're probably [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6600">TS</a>]
01:50:06 ◼ ► not meant to catch an exception I got to see and it's not like so much a language feature as it is an A.B.I. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6606">TS</a>]
01:50:12 ◼ ► but still that that type of thing leads you to these like the tedium of of you know you know write parameter conditions [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6612">TS</a>]
01:50:22 ◼ ► you know where you passed the an address to some error thing is going to fill out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6622">TS</a>]
01:50:24 ◼ ► or return values where at some status of others or a status [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6624">TS</a>]
01:50:27 ◼ ► or any other type of thing that type of thing is frowned is seen as slightly barbaric in languages that do allow you to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6627">TS</a>]
01:50:38 ◼ ► Do expect you to use exceptions for flow control [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6638">TS</a>]
01:50:40 ◼ ► and then of course there's the pathological case of like you know checked exceptions and all the java crap [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6640">TS</a>]
01:50:44 ◼ ► and like it can go too far in the other direction as well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6644">TS</a>]
01:50:46 ◼ ► but I would I would put down a list of things that Objective C. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6646">TS</a>]
01:50:49 ◼ ► That other languages do differently that people find cumbersome tedious and error prone [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6649">TS</a>]
01:50:55 ◼ ► and lead to these type of situations where you find yourself needing a go to as far as I know it might get to see code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6655">TS</a>]
01:51:02 ◼ ► written so far. Instapaper buckshot. The magazine and overcast of the ever written a try catch block. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6662">TS</a>]
01:51:09 ◼ ► I think I've always made exceptions global thing. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6669">TS</a>]
01:51:12 ◼ ► Yeah because in Cocoa they're not you're not you're not supposed to like exception is supposed to be exceptional like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6672">TS</a>]
01:51:16 ◼ ► that that policy is there not for control flow it's not just to get me out of this mess that block it's like something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6676">TS</a>]
01:51:22 ◼ ► has gone wrong and maybe you can put up a dialog and exit your app or do something like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6682">TS</a>]
01:51:26 ◼ ► but you're not supposed to use it as a form of flow control even if even though I assume you can if you want to. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6686">TS</a>]
01:51:32 ◼ ► It's more like an assertion failure. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6692">TS</a>]
01:51:34 ◼ ► Yeah I think that's how the tire more supposed to use it like if I think certain failures might even throw exceptions I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6694">TS</a>]
01:51:39 ◼ ► don't remember exactly when. Anyway all right title title. Go to Phil's obvious I'm not against it. [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+CdTdFqbA/6699">TS</a>]