The Accidental Tech Podcast

55: Dave, Who Stinks!

 

  In certain music here. Are you going to play for me. I won't give them. You think I'm not happy here. [TS]

  Dammit man who for the first item in follow up is when we talk about Final Draft [TS]

  and the script notes podcast Last week we got a lot of feedback on that. Also directly from the two hosts of that part. [TS]

  And as it turns out I definitely am perhaps also Casey missing tributed to the two hosts statements which were not [TS]

  there in particular discussing their stance on software pricing at closing the park as I was under the impression that [TS]

  they thought that they thought software if not should be free should definitely be much lower priced [TS]

  and I cited an example in a podcast of them saying well of Apple's operating system is free. [TS]

  That was not the host of the podcast that said that that was Joe Jarvis he was the product manager from Final Draft who [TS]

  was on the podcast. [TS]

  Now I know people feel when they say they can identify our voices and never think for the first time [TS]

  and you know fifteen twenty minutes into it you lose track of who's speaking. [TS]

  I didn't lose track so I think Katie said the last show and I said that a marker tried to correct us [TS]

  and none of us could remember for sure at the time. [TS]

  But Mark it was right I could tell you where you are and all that exist [TS]

  and I was that I did I thought that was them in case I thought that was them doing you said I thought it was them [TS]

  but none of us had the pocket in front of it. [TS]

  And speaking of that there is actually a transcript of this pod cast which Michael put in the show notes that will give [TS]

  you a text version so you don't have to listen to the podcast. [TS]

  People sometimes don't want to listen to audio and scrub to the park. [TS]

  You can just look at the text version which is much faster to read and find the discussion of this topic. [TS]

  So I apologize to both of those guys for making it sound like I thought all software should be free [TS]

  and in fact John all the cells and software are his own and so he is not just a observer of the software industry [TS]

  but is also a participant on the other side of the coin. [TS]

  Yeah yeah I definitely was part of screwing that up [TS]

  and I will say that I was completely in love with listening to that particular episode. [TS]

  Part cast because was it is it Mark. Mad Nick is that right here. Who is the C.E.O. [TS]

  and Co-founder final draft to my ears was straight out of New York I can tell I could tell his voice from the other [TS]

  stuff [TS]

  and so that's what that was going to say as he was the only one I could I could without question definitely place who [TS]

  is to everyone else I was I was taken shopman dark you know we got a lot of feedback about like from from people who [TS]

  are in talk about the screenplay format and people have many alternate apps for screenplays [TS]

  and it looks like that ecosystem is actually pretty vibrant [TS]

  and seeing some new life in terms of like alternate applications and alternate formats for writing screenplays. [TS]

  So it's actually much more lively than than it might seem if you just listen to this [TS]

  and think everyone is stuck with final draft that the young [TS]

  and upcoming people are seeking adult I was photographed in those alternatives exist [TS]

  and in fact there's a format kind of like mark down that you can use to produce a screenplay [TS]

  and any application like mark down any application I get is that a text that format [TS]

  and you can convert from that format to the quote unquote real screenplay format so that's really opened up feel to a [TS]

  lot of other editors which I also mentioned during lunch. [TS]

  Eventually by name [TS]

  but I didn't know what the name was so I didn't know if you had said it like Mark Denver screenplay sort of in like may [TS]

  be said that this is where you can insert the clip of you saying that you had only I thought I think I'd give one [TS]

  sentence about mentioning this fountain format [TS]

  but yeah otherwise otherwise the follow up is I was right I would get someone that's not so true. [TS]

  Don't you know there has been plenty but you were there if you had been more insistent like Kate [TS]

  and I both got it wrong who said that and you're like I don't think it was the other guy. [TS]

  You weren't sure it was the other guy either. [TS]

  Or sure enough to say no it totally was and I guess I think I did [TS]

  but that's OK are you going to turn back let's say you know I was just trying to give you places where you can insert [TS]

  audio. There were parts in there. [TS]

  The other part of it is that the Craig and John did and various times say things like and we know the price is off [TS]

  or is going down and things that used to cost a lot cause more [TS]

  but they were saying it as a sort of a offering up of the idea that they understand where the founder of guys are [TS]

  coming from. Not that these are positions they agreed with. [TS]

  So if you look if you read the text it is much more clear that they are trying to provide like trying to say that I [TS]

  empathize with your situation I understand that in the software market software is apparently being devalued [TS]

  and then they would say but and then go on. [TS]

  I think Craig is still closest to to walking that line in saying that he doesn't think great just oregano should be [TS]

  worthwhile [TS]

  but again again it gets back to the specifics of this one program that they don't like that hasn't been updated for a [TS]

  long time and not a general statement about all software. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  and I think that that specific complaint about retina being the thing that should have been free I don't I don't agree [TS]

  with them on that. [TS]

  I agree you know if they if they want to complain that the updates in general to final draft haven't included enough [TS]

  new features to be worth their price that's a different story and charging for what is really a bug fix. [TS]

  That is also a different story but retina is actually like you know supporting new hardware [TS]

  and that's that's not necessarily quote a bug fix [TS]

  and you know it's like it's like if you have to support a new version of the U.S. [TS]

  You know you don't you don't get everybody for free if they're already really old version. [TS]

  But you know I think it's I think this is all I think they're probably this is all tied up in the overall problem a [TS]

  final draft being crappy and not really having any kind of development pace for a long time. [TS]

  All right so the other bit a follow up that we have is regarding whether [TS]

  or not it's wise to treat warnings as errors in production code [TS]

  and I believe this came from the go if you feel conversations are right it was kind of a separate. [TS]

  Actually yeah it was a separate topic but. But yes you know there is the culture of of using the W. All flag or W. [TS]

  Everything flag or the various permutations thereof that specify the really. As for Terra carriage in C. [TS]

  or Easier to hear because you would say. [TS]

  And that kind of morphed into you know my my position of with my well development now I'm doing my P.H.P. [TS]

  Framework such that all warnings [TS]

  and notices in production even are treated as exceptions I was doing development for for the last few years [TS]

  but now even in production all warnings and notices are exceptions [TS]

  and I asked the listeners during last week's show because John John in case you guys severely disagree with that saying [TS]

  that in practice to paraphrase your arguments I feel if you'll prove in practice that in a production environment once [TS]

  you get you know beyond a one person operation that gets really tricky you might have other people deploying you know [TS]

  P.H.P. [TS]

  Updates to the server and you know breaking the site into the night [TS]

  and you know maybe it's not that important to break the site for some minor reason it's not worth it [TS]

  and it's better to to keep everything up as much as you can and just log the warnings. [TS]

  So I asked the listeners what if they worked in a big organization that it is known for having that either has a really [TS]

  important web presence or is known for being really good at tech like Google or Amazon. [TS]

  I asked them like you know what's your policy in your organization and you know please let me know the feedback form. [TS]

  And boy did they go my God And I think it's pretty safe to say that not only did I lose this argument [TS]

  but I'm pretty sure I actually lost it unanimously. [TS]

  Well it's not there's no winning [TS]

  or losing based on what people say a bunch of people sending feedback doesn't mean anybody want to last anywhere. [TS]

  I've been thinking about it I think I can frame this the reason. [TS]

  I disagree with you on the reason we had a disagreement last show as it was all about the framing of the thing it was [TS]

  the thing I put in the show no special talk about at the end [TS]

  but the major framing of the topic was that in the beginning I like the topic came up in Yuma [TS]

  and you mention something about it and the beginning both Casey [TS]

  and I stipulated that there are certainly situations where it is both feasible [TS]

  and the right thing to do to elevate boarding stairs in production [TS]

  and we give example of you like you have to control everything about it. [TS]

  Your one man shop you're doing the client server side like you know you're not running a bank like you know for a [TS]

  podcast up and you know it's like it's reasonable based and then [TS]

  and then you stipulated there they're institutions in which it is unfeasible to do this because of something about like [TS]

  it's a different department that controls that are the developers are too far away from it [TS]

  or think you know things have to be up all the time and that's the most important thing [TS]

  and used to be elated that it was some sort of ailment in the enterprise that company it's also a practical concern [TS]

  that you might have to do that but every time Casey [TS]

  and I tried to come up with a scenario where it wasn't just like something you had to do because of real world [TS]

  practical concerns that are such a shame [TS]

  but that it was actually the right decision like not because of some sickness in your organization [TS]

  but actually because the arrangement of things in this perfectly healthy organization are such that this is the correct [TS]

  move. You would say oh I don't know. [TS]

  Basically you kept creeping towards an absolutist position him whenever we tried to cite an exception you would say I'm [TS]

  still not convinced so I think despite all the feedback is all the feedback you can dismiss [TS]

  and say well all those people belong to organizations that have some sort of sickness which most of them probably do [TS]

  let's be honest I'm trying to organizations that have some sort of organizational sickness that requires the requires [TS]

  them to do this you know isn't that a shame yes I understand it's a reality in your life but it's [TS]

  but it's not really the right thing to do [TS]

  and what I was trying to convince you of last time that I think is still the case is that there are situations where it [TS]

  is actually the right thing to do not to elevate warnings to exceptions. [TS]

  Action [TS]

  and the difficulty if you continue that I think has a lot to do with like us not this is kind of a tangent not sort of [TS]

  being on the same page ahead of time as to what the heck is a warning what do you mean by a warning like we got to it [TS]

  from like the warnings like the compiler that I was you know were talking about because that's like [TS]

  when you're compiling the program before you've deployed it there is no you know there's a different kinds of warnings [TS]

  and I was trying to think of a way to like who gets to agree on what warnings are [TS]

  but that's almost impossible to do you have to talk about specific technologies involved and where they come from [TS]

  and I thought of like the most extreme example is like imagine there was just a random number generator in your code in [TS]

  point or one percent of the time on this particular line it would have made a warning [TS]

  and you know that to an exception in production [TS]

  and you'd like of course I'm not going to turn that on because I'm just signing myself up for downtime. [TS]

  That is pretty much what exception what warnings are like in many situations in libraries that you didn't write that [TS]

  you have no control over in languages are runtime pass through code you can emit warnings [TS]

  and I think in that situation that absurd situation obviously you would agree that if something randomly elevating [TS]

  things to exceptions now you wouldn't want to turn those [TS]

  and warnings about he wouldn't turn them into exceptions going into signing up for downtime [TS]

  and lots of other people who wrote in who belong to these organizations that have these problems that cause them not to [TS]

  be able to do what you think is the best practice. [TS]

  Describe why they think it was the right decision but I don't think any of them were convincing. [TS]

  That would have convinced your should have convinced you that really is the right thing to do. [TS]

  So I'm wondering if reading all those things were you convinced that this is actually the right thing to do to not [TS]

  elevate them to exceptions in some situations and not just merely that it's something that poor suckers have to do. [TS]

  Now wait before you answer that market let me jump in there's there's a couple of quotes just three quotes that I'd [TS]

  really really like to read really quickly that I think really kind of nail this home and I and I [TS]

  and surprisingly I agree with everything John just said. The three quotes are from Alex tall and tall was in all caps. [TS]

  In practice the C. Whatever C I O C E O It's a. Doesn't give a flip about anything but their own agenda. [TS]

  In the end Marco has the correct idea. [TS]

  But outside of small and extremely well structured organizations the practice falls apart [TS]

  and I think that that that that's exactly what John [TS]

  and I are both saying that yeah you know in certain cases all know that that the guy is an organization that has [TS]

  problems. [TS]

  You know he's he's admitting that his organization has has problems that cause him to have to do what he knows isn't [TS]

  the best practice because you know such a shame like that's not really what I'm saying. [TS]

  OK but I guess the way I read that was Marco's idea is absolutely right it's just not always a political. [TS]

  No I don't think it's idea that we railed on that's what I'm that's what I'm saying. [TS]

  Like So here here's what I just said here is you know kind of like you going radio the feedback isn't enough so the [TS]

  other two were. [TS]

  Secondly there were two different engineers from Amazon that wrote in [TS]

  and I'm paraphrasing kind of the mutual message that that both of them said. [TS]

  And so this is no not verbatim but they said I get why Marco says what he's saying but [TS]

  when you deal with this kind of scale something is always broken. [TS]

  And so in the example of Amazon there's so many moving parts that no matter what you're doing no matter what happened [TS]

  there was always going to be something that isn't quite right and so you kind of have to plan for that [TS]

  and there's not a lot you can do about it. [TS]

  And then finally anonymous said we don't guarantee up time with code quality we guarantee up time by having an [TS]

  institutional strength in reacting to problems and this is kind of getting into a different tangent [TS]

  but I just thought it was a very interesting point as well that even if your code has no smell to it whatsoever that [TS]

  doesn't necessarily guarantee up time [TS]

  and really guaranteeing up time is more about just being able to read it react to issues that are saying those are the [TS]

  three quotes I have so I apologize Marco or John Feel free to carry on. [TS]

  Well before Marco has to respond I want to give what I thought was the strongest argument sort of buried in our. [TS]

  Feedback and that that many people have offered [TS]

  and it gets back to kind of like going to the final draft thing with the C.E.O. [TS]

  Found Rafa's coming up I guess and trying to make all his problems your problems [TS]

  and a lot of the people who are discussing the problems with their baby [TS]

  or evasions that that that make this unfeasible also said basically and you know more or less [TS]

  and even if we could do this it's essentially making your problem [TS]

  and your problem is basically I want to ensure that my code is morning free [TS]

  but I think it will produce higher quality code. [TS]

  It's turning your problem into your customer's problem because you know once once you turn that warning fatal in [TS]

  production you have some sort of you know avoidable downtime that causes you to you know while I'm sure we're going to [TS]

  go fix it now because once there's downtime everyone runs around like their hair is on fire [TS]

  and that will make sure that we don't let human nature go through [TS]

  and if we merely log the errors maybe you'll just ignore them [TS]

  and build up in a log so this is a way to guarantee that we have code quality [TS]

  but the way you're guaranteeing is at the expense of your customers. [TS]

  Someone just wrote in the chat room I was the name I think it was or was it something [TS]

  and it was some of those are in the chat room. Enjoy this downtime I didn't trust myself to take the warning seriously. [TS]

  Like message to your customers and what I would say the strongest argument [TS]

  and in this vein is that by elevating warnings to errors in production [TS]

  and making your problems your customer's problems if that's the only way to ensure that you stay in warnings clean. [TS]

  That in itself is a sign of an unhealthy organization and help the organization would have a policy to log warnings [TS]

  and have them addressed in a timely manner was suggested and shown a lot of people wrote in [TS]

  and they said this was the policy so I think if this is the only way you can you can avoid the pitfalls of human nature [TS]

  and make yourselves address these things. [TS]

  That's a sickness that's worse than the sickness that lets you not do that because of a lot of these people who are no [TS]

  relation to did seem very compensate we have a policy a warning it's logged it makes it take someone who deals in a [TS]

  fixed amount of time and they can execute and that policies that's their stopgap against human nature or not. [TS]

  Putting it on to their customers and causing a problem. [TS]

  And that's why I think there are actually situations where it is the correct move not just the pragmatic one not just [TS]

  the unfortunate I'm sad I had to do this one but actually in the correct optimal you know [TS]

  and if their butts about it policy Mostly I'm not going to argue this anymore because I've clearly been proven wrong [TS]

  and I can see a lot I don't understand and accept a lot of the kind arguments have been put up. [TS]

  Just to clarify though what I'm talking about warnings in production like the kind of morning that I see on my apps are [TS]

  usually things like my skew Well truncated value because I passed one that was too long [TS]

  and my application code is not validating that for lanes properly or or you know something else with my S.Q.L. [TS]

  Like the connection was dropped in the middle of a transaction and my library didn't reconnect [TS]

  and those that that kind of thing that's both the kind of thing that I want to know about [TS]

  and so I think you're right John that yes making it your customer's problem is not ideal. [TS]

  And yes if you have the structure in place where if warning just get logged in a database somewhere [TS]

  and then you're required to act on them. [TS]

  That's great and if you have that kind of discipline within the organization that's awesome [TS]

  but I think so many organizations don't have that. [TS]

  In practice you know there's there's always there's like there's the bigger organizations that can have procedures like [TS]

  that and they don't always [TS]

  but you know they usually usually bigger they are more likely to have some like that where this tends to fall apart [TS]

  and where this you know where a lot of software methodologies fall apart [TS]

  and a lot of discipline falls apart in our industry is in the small and medium sized shops [TS]

  and in that kind of situation where you don't have a lot of procedures in place you don't have a lot of infrastructure [TS]

  in place. You don't have giant different teams doing different parts of it so you know maybe you have. [TS]

  Between two [TS]

  and twenty people in your organization you know that that federalization That's a lot of times where discipline is at [TS]

  the window and if you get a bunch of logged warnings in production you might not fix them or humanity can see them [TS]

  and so I do think there are a lot of a lot of situations where enforcing this in forcing it's blowing up production [TS]

  with warnings as a disciplinary tool to combat human failings I think there's still a place that I I will I will yield [TS]

  to the counter argument on this being the right idea for everybody [TS]

  and even for a larger organization I think the thing that's been proven that that's probably bad [TS]

  but I think I think you can apply this kind of rule of crashing production on everything to more than just me. [TS]

  I think there's more of a place for it's not just you [TS]

  but you like I stipulated there are situations where that's valid in all cases we're trying to find the correct [TS]

  solution is the one the plays to the strengths of the particular situation the strengths of a small shop or one [TS]

  or two man shop a shop working on something that doesn't matter if it's down for a little bit like a game [TS]

  or you know something it's not super critical that is not to say strength [TS]

  but like that is that the shape of that beast is that you know you can take advantage of this. [TS]

  Since you're a small shop [TS]

  and doing something on essentially you can take advantage of this to make sure that you don't ignore the Vieira's [TS]

  because you know you're you're basically you're hacking is one of the self acts like [TS]

  when you do something to remind yourself to exercise all the time and now it's all of the life hack things or whatever. [TS]

  But on a small scale and that makes perfect sense and then in the larger organizations they have different strengths [TS]

  and one of the strengths of a large organization they have the ability to have policies to be imposed on people it's [TS]

  very hard to have a policy imposed in a five or ten person company because who's going to be the big guy because [TS]

  when the policies are going to be your friend who sits next to you [TS]

  and you're not going take it seriously like that's a weakness of Smorgon of the strength of a big one so you have to [TS]

  pick the solution is appropriate for you and we think it's not. [TS]

  Just for Marco but for other organizations where it may be possible that this may also be the best solution. [TS]

  The tricky part and gets back to what I wrote in the show notes which is what is the nature of warnings [TS]

  and warnings so just like without agreeing on that it's like it's very hard to have a discussion about this because you [TS]

  know transactional border devalue truncated like everyone would agree that I mean regardless even like you know value [TS]

  truncated I think that should be elevated to an exception in almost all situations [TS]

  but the warning about like you sure you want to use this function because a lot of times people use this function [TS]

  or really they mean that function and that happens at runtime because you never had that code path [TS]

  or a particular value [TS]

  and your total like yes I use the write function don't want to that's why I get back to the random number generator [TS]

  like that's the extreme thing is like some code that you didn't write in some library that you don't control. [TS]

  Decide they want to send you a nice friendly message depending on if it gets the you know the data value was over five [TS]

  and it's past three pm on a Tuesday [TS]

  and the system clock past the year twenty ten which at the end it decides to emit a warning like I would consider that [TS]

  a problem if you didn't plan for that and catch it. [TS]

  No [TS]

  but I mean like if the warning is like Are you sure you want to call this function maybe you meant another one like it's [TS]

  advisory it's guessing like you did your not that you were if you could find the person who wrote this morning you'd be [TS]

  like Stop writing no warning like because they're human beings writing these warnings in the words they have nothing to [TS]

  do with any kind of erroneous or unexpected situation but merely giving advice right and advice is fine. [TS]

  In situations like you can't get back to the random number generator a lot of times warnings to me feel like they might [TS]

  as well have just been my code was running fine and [TS]

  and some random number some random number generator decide I'm going to send you a friendly message right now that had [TS]

  nothing to do with anything that was not useful in the only reason I have to react to it is to add whatever I need to [TS]

  make that warning go away if I can't because sometimes you can't get it to compile Libre the use that you don't control [TS]

  it's not acting in a way that is unexpected or wrong but then that author decided to give you advice about something [TS]

  and that is the worst kind of warning the worst kind of runtime. [TS]

  Even driven warning that you don't control and that's why I think a lot of people didn't position this because [TS]

  when they think of warnings it's like oh it's something I have to react to and [TS]

  when I think of warnings often think of the only reason I have to react this is to shut this person up because they [TS]

  don't know our code or they're trying to be helpful and give advice [TS]

  or suggest a different way that we could do things [TS]

  and it's like I don't what you're suggesting now at runtime you know I need to blank that out of the logs because I [TS]

  can't get rid of it and it's not telling me anything useful. [TS]

  So as with most things we were discussing [TS]

  and trying to like agree on the premise like authorities are talking about a specific technology [TS]

  or a specific version of something [TS]

  and then you kind of say here's the set of warnings that come out are we OK all of the things all two exceptions [TS]

  and then you have to look inside your innovation all of the stuff [TS]

  but if you just say warnings in general everyone's got a different picture in your head of what we're talking about. [TS]

  All right we are sponsored this week by something pretty cool something pretty new here. [TS]

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  Once again that's brave Wave dot net and the new album is called influx two words. [TS]

  Thanks a lot to brave way for sponsoring our show. [TS]

  You know always have a soft spot in my heart for Chip tunes because it's straight out of childhood. [TS]

  You know that's when even I cared a lot about Nintendo and things of that nature. [TS]

  And now I'm not that into gaming but I'll still occasionally stumble upon a chiptune album like this one [TS]

  and just absolutely love it if for no other reason for than a stodgy factor you want to give me the bleeps in groups [TS]

  theme song but will accept them. Yeah. Do you want to sponsor John. I heartily endorse the bleeps and boops. [TS]

  All right so I guess we should talk about soft mode algebra first I want to talk about. [TS]

  Any of these new bugs that have come out or Apple by Nintendo. What else happened a lot happened this week. [TS]

  Car Play we're not going to that they foresaw from a little car play right. [TS]

  Car Play was interesting but we get we can do software that all of this first if we want to explode. [TS]

  Well you know what I'll tell you what do you hear the fans for my MacPro I do not exactly where to set your new MacPro [TS]

  white one and God They came today. Oh my God Are you serious are you. [TS]

  I don't even know what to say right now I am so serious you need to say something about software methodology now it now [TS]

  is your time. OK it's called. [TS]

  It's pretty good by the way I don't know how stop you so much all right so a long time ago. Yeah it's fantastic. [TS]

  I posted this here here's a picture you can actually see just to prove just as proof you you waited just for just for [TS]

  this very moment didn't you. I did. I've kept it off the Twitter all day. The government that algae. [TS]

  I was going to say if this is the longest roll either half of me admires it [TS]

  and half of me is about to get in the car and drive to that town in which you live in murder you. [TS]

  But [TS]

  and this is why I kept it up Twitter all day for you our listeners to hear Casey's genuine reaction because he really [TS]

  didn't know that I had it and I hate you so much. [TS]

  All right so a long time ago in a galaxy far far away on a podcast very similar to this we talked about we touched upon [TS]

  the idea of talking about software methodologies and what we mean by that is you know how do you write software. [TS]

  How do you do that especially in a group atmosphere which means Marco probably doesn't do this very often anymore [TS]

  and hasn't done it in a long time. [TS]

  When I haven't prepared anything specific about this so I'm just kind of going to kind of ad lib. [TS]

  But a lot of a lot of my time my professional time has been spent pretty Actually all my professional times been spent [TS]

  working in teams. [TS]

  And I found over the years that there are very very very many different ways of going about authoring software. [TS]

  And I should say right now that if you're not the kind of person that really gives a crap about how to write code then [TS]

  this might be a portable to you anyway because many of these things that we're about to talk about are actually [TS]

  political to just about any project. And so there's a lot a couple of different. [TS]

  Well there's many many many different ways of going about this but a couple of very very obvious ones. [TS]

  And the way that I wrote most of my code in my career is by using a technique called waterfall which is to say you do [TS]

  all the planning up front [TS]

  and so that means you do a lot of planning up front you do a lot of thinking up front you have a lot of meetings up [TS]

  front and you pretty much do everything you can before you write a line of code and you do that all first [TS]

  and you do no code until you are ready to pretty much just thrown it in because you've specified almost everything up [TS]

  front. [TS]

  And the alternative to that are the most obvious alternative to that with something called agile which is to say you [TS]

  just kind of fly by the seat your pants and see what happens. [TS]

  So it's they they're very very different and there's pluses and minuses to both. [TS]

  But before we dig into that John what do you use in your day to day job today. [TS]

  I don't use any method [TS]

  or methodology depending on what you think is an actual word that you could name with a proper noun with a capital [TS]

  letter. If we use some vocabulary from the world of agile but it's kind of pointless and there's no real. [TS]

  We have a system and we have processes [TS]

  but we don't have we're not we're not following any kind of methodology from a book or a paper [TS]

  or even within the organization of the processes that we have are mostly methodology agnostic so I would not put it [TS]

  into any one of these had been in past jobs lived in fact never been to the company that has it here due to a [TS]

  particular system for doing software development that I could do that I could name with a capital letter. [TS]

  So let me instead answer that well OK I'm sorry I should ask Marco What do you do. [TS]

  MARCO What did you guys do a tumbler. The answer to both of those is the same which is a long awkward silence. [TS]

  All right. So so I have had the benefit and and detriment of using kind of a little bit of everything. [TS]

  I've used agile in a strict sense of ease that on a not so strict sense of you want to form a strict sense waterfowl [TS]

  not script in the strict sense. [TS]

  And what's interesting is that there's a lot it doesn't really matter what methodology you use or method [TS]

  or whatever that you use a lot of it falls down to the team and what the team is comfortable with. [TS]

  And so I've had a lot of experiences where I've tried to use agile and in doing so in client work. [TS]

  In my personal experience is going to be made or bridge broken by the client so the way I had to work. [TS]

  And I probably was being a bit flippant earlier [TS]

  when I said it's all about flying by the seat your pants it's really not at all the way it works is you spend a little [TS]

  bit of time a front planning the next couple of weeks. Or the next sprint as it's called. [TS]

  And so you spend that time figure out what are we going to do for next couple weeks. [TS]

  And the way that typically works is you come up with something called user stories which is to say you know as a user [TS]

  of this online banking system I would like to make a deposit and somebody will [TS]

  or you as a team will decide how how long do we think that will take [TS]

  but not in terms of hours which is a typical consulting way of doing things [TS]

  but instead in terms of something called points and points are not arbitrary but not really defined either [TS]

  and so what that means is typically you'll say OK of all these user stories we agree that the positing a check is for [TS]

  whatever reason a one point story that's very very very simple. [TS]

  And so we will say that we will judge all of our other stories based upon the difficulty of this story this one point [TS]

  story. [TS]

  So in the beginning you do sprint planning [TS]

  and you say OK for the next two weeks we think we can cover twenty points worth of effort. [TS]

  And so what do we think we're going to do. [TS]

  And so what you'll figure out of these are the things that we're going to put in the current sprint [TS]

  and then we'll have a backlog of things we'll get to if we can. [TS]

  And a nice box of things will get you way in the future if possible and you do your sprint usually for two weeks [TS]

  but not always and you do spend for two weeks [TS]

  and you try to figure out you know you try to get all these things done [TS]

  and at the end of the Sprint you'll see OK well we didn't we didn't do as much as we wanted. [TS]

  So actually we ended up only doing eighteen points worth of work [TS]

  and will consider eighteen points our vote last city for the next sprint. [TS]

  And this is all very boring on the surface [TS]

  but over a couple of sprints you get to figure out what is your team's velocity [TS]

  and your team's velocity can get you to a position that you can actually plan how much work you're going to do in the [TS]

  future. And that's the path. [TS]

  Our of Agile is when you've gotten a couple sprints under your belt and you've gotten your velocity [TS]

  and it's relatively repeatable and reliable. [TS]

  And then at that point you can you can predictably figure out OK given all the work we have left to do then why how [TS]

  much how much how much time will it take. [TS]

  And so I've done agile several times all but one of the times it failed spectacularly. [TS]

  And the reason they're Well there are many reasons to fail spectacularly [TS]

  but in my personal experience the reason the most obvious in hugest reason that a fail spectacularly is because our [TS]

  client didn't really get it. Which probably falls down to us not really explaining agile properly to to our client. [TS]

  But the one time it worked well our client really got into it and really understood OK P's point. [TS]

  Things don't really translate to hours and if you don't they don't really translate directly to anything specific. [TS]

  But these points are kind of like currency. [TS]

  And if I decide out of the blue that I really want some new feature [TS]

  and if I ask the team are right how long do you think this will take and they say well it's going to be three points. [TS]

  I know as the as the product owner I know was the client as a product owner that I'm going to need to take away three [TS]

  points worth of effort if I want to shimmy in these new three points that I've just come up with. [TS]

  And when it got to the point that we and the client both understood that points are currency [TS]

  and really had faith in the system it worked on believably well. [TS]

  But generally speaking out of that happens instead what you end up with is from a fall which is you do a bunch of work [TS]

  up front have stand ups every day say you're working in agile and none of it works since complete. [TS]

  That's basically are just about the sounds awful. This is this what working with other people is like. Which part. [TS]

  I'm I am asking honestly which part sounds awful all of it to the point it sounds condescending the points I mean [TS]

  whatever. [TS]

  I mean it's like I said it just sounds and I mean there's been so much said and written and experimented with [TS]

  and tested over the years about how to organize [TS]

  and manage anger nearing tasks like this sorry programming task start of the real engineers out there [TS]

  and most of these systems boil down to the ways that are easily exploited for laziness or personal gain or and [TS]

  or ways that are just very obvious gated and potentially condescending [TS]

  or infantilizing And I think I would have a hard time with some of this like vandalizing it just having a boss I know [TS]

  it sounds the same from your perspective. I have someone else tell me what to do I'm not a baby yet. [TS]

  So what good is there a specific thing [TS]

  or things that you take issue with because your reaction to be honest is not unreasonable is especially knowing the [TS]

  frame of mind you're coming from. It's hard to explain. [TS]

  I think just the whole the whole setup sounds like it sounds like a lot of people need something to do with their jobs [TS]

  who aren't necessarily programming all day whether their managers or whatever you want to call them [TS]

  and managers have a role. [TS]

  Good managers are very very helpful but there's a lot of managers out there who aren't good at hand. [TS]

  And so much of this stuff sounds like the creation of mediocre managers trying to occupy their time [TS]

  and prove themselves a worthwhile by coming up with some kind of system some kind of you know procedures and. [TS]

  And frameworks and abstractions over people doing work and the the process of building software [TS]

  and it may be one of the reasons why these things often fall apart [TS]

  or don't work very well is because like you just said OK well this feature if you set a night in ideal case you can [TS]

  take the points of people part of it and you can say OK well this feature will cost three points. [TS]

  That's just that's all it is estimating time right. [TS]

  And we're always our entire industry is myself included is horrendous at estimating time. [TS]

  And so like is it really any different to say oh that'll take two weeks or they'll take you know thirty man hours [TS]

  and are any of them even accurate. [TS]

  It's not really estimating time is as much as it is estimating difficulty and that's the key difference [TS]

  and if I were you I'd be kind of sucking air through my teeth and being like What is there really a difference there [TS]

  but there is because you're saying relative to other things. [TS]

  This is either a little bit more difficult or a whole lot more difficult. [TS]

  And so a one point story we all agree as a team including Q.A. [TS]

  Including everyone we all agree is a team this is not very hard where as an eight point story [TS]

  and usually use of technology sequence so what is it one two three five eight sum like that you know there's a point [TS]

  story is many orders of magnitude more difficult than that then that other one point story. [TS]

  And so it's less about estimating time and then it is difficulty in the theory as you take time out of the equation [TS]

  and that's what that velocity is all about because over a couple of friends you realize OK we bit off forty points [TS]

  worth of work but holy crap we only did twenty. [TS]

  So realistically we shouldn't sign up for forty points anymore Sprint's we should sign up for twenty [TS]

  and over time things become a lot more predictable [TS]

  and the other thing that you said which if Which makes perfect sense [TS]

  but I think I'm doing a pretty crummy job explaining scrum [TS]

  and agile is that all it's all about giving manager something to do or not all about [TS]

  but in part about giving managers some. [TS]

  And to do [TS]

  and in fact it actually to some degree neuters the traditional product project manager in that you're no longer [TS]

  beholden to a Gantt chart which is possibly the most evil thing ever created and instead the whole idea of scrum [TS]

  and agile is the team is the one in power and if there is a pride project manager their job in life is [TS]

  and to be honest it is what I think it should be which is to get obstacles out of the way [TS]

  and the best products project managers I've ever ever ever worked with do two things. Well three things actually. [TS]

  Number one they get obstacles out of the way. [TS]

  Number two they advocate on behalf of the client to our team so they are the client's representative. [TS]

  Whenever the client isn't around and sometimes even when the client is around [TS]

  and number three they advocate on behalf of us to the client. [TS]

  So if the client is like Dude you guys gotta be able to do more than twenty points in the sprint really I mean come on. [TS]

  This stuff is not hard. [TS]

  It's a product and project managers job to kind of step in and say well know whether [TS]

  or not you think it's difficult the fact the matter is history shows us data shows us that we can only do twenty points [TS]

  a sprint. So this one is going to have to be and to think anything else would just be impractical and irresponsible. [TS]

  Does that make any sense at all. [TS]

  It totally does but I like what what bothers me about systems like this is I look at this [TS]

  and I say well why do you call them points. Why does it have to be this concept of this of this currency or this this. [TS]

  Like why does it have to be another level of indirection [TS]

  or an abstraction above what it really is which is people working you know man hours. [TS]

  It's you know that's like why this this to me sounds a lot like the culture of Java and which has infected P.H.P. [TS]

  As well of like making tons and tons of deep class hierarchies and class and upper classes inheriting from classes [TS]

  and factories an abstract factory and all this crap. And when you're really trying to do some. [TS]

  It's a lot simpler than that it doesn't need all of that and so when I [TS]

  when I look at some of these things like it's it's easy for me to to get turned off by it [TS]

  and honestly there's probably tons of value here that I'm not seeing because I'm an idiot in this regard I've never I [TS]

  am completely inexperienced in following any kind of from methodology in in all my programming jobs even when [TS]

  or even [TS]

  when I work with the people we never fall in the methodologies closely we would you know we would kind of like what [TS]

  John said earlier we'd like borrow occasional things and Michael will try a few weeks with this [TS]

  or try couple of months with this and [TS]

  and it would never stick so I don't know I don't know what I'm talking about in this area so that in mind I mean [TS]

  normally I don't know I'm talking about with a lot of things [TS]

  but this time I'm actually admitting it so that should mean something. [TS]

  You know what your your questions are completely reasonable [TS]

  and so to answer one of them you know why points why that level of indirection Why not just speak in ours [TS]

  and it's because of exactly what you said which is that the developers are unbelievably indescribably bad at coming up [TS]

  with accurate estimates [TS]

  and so the whole idea of points is like I was saying earlier it's an order of magnitude of difficulty [TS]

  and you can kind of construe how many hours a point will be after a few sprints [TS]

  when you say OK well Sprint is two weeks. Casey has done ten points worth of work every two weeks. [TS]

  So that's about five points a week. [TS]

  So you know you can you can extrapolate that out to figure out what ours is [TS]

  but the idea is to take away any sort of measure of time and just argue about difficulty and track difficulty. [TS]

  So that time kind of falls out of that equation. [TS]

  I'm not sure I'm doing a great job describing it there's a lot of reasons why that will not at all it is B.S. [TS]

  And I think I have my own cynical take on hung on agile and other matters as well [TS]

  but I want to get to a link that someone put into the chat room whose name I will get this time because I froze my [TS]

  scroll back. Wonder Matt put in the link the thing that I wanted to mention which. [TS]

  His [TS]

  and maybe another uses the Greek software company introduced this thing as part of a product as part of I guess a click [TS]

  a link to find out. [TS]

  But scheduling it was Bugs a while ago I think it was for some five or something it was a while ago. [TS]

  Yeah and it's a similar take on this [TS]

  but it's like it's even more kind of data driven in that on an individual developer basis they asked that individual [TS]

  developer to estimate how long something will take [TS]

  and you basically each individual developer gets a sort of a reputation within the system of how could they heard about [TS]

  estimating how long things are going to take for them to do [TS]

  and it is an easy weakness to pick out of an adult system that uses points in the way Casey described. [TS]

  It's that programmers aren't interchangeable parts [TS]

  and you're you're crappiness at estimating difficulty of a tester in one sprint probably has very little bearing on [TS]

  your crappiness of estimating the difficulty of an entirely other task another sprint so you may think the entire team [TS]

  has a capacity of twenty points [TS]

  and really Person A has a capacity of fifty points on its own if you're doing a feature that involves like O.C.R. [TS]

  but If you're doing a feature that involves pull down menus. His point about that is much lower. [TS]

  But he's able to estimate both of them really well so you think you'll be able to oh we should be able to you know [TS]

  figure out exactly how many points we have but the points vary wildly. [TS]

  Being able to estimate the difficulty who you estimate for difficulty for the team difficulty for you who is assigned [TS]

  to such a big difference. [TS]

  That's why a lot of these things fall down [TS]

  and evidence based cajoling is trying to say what can we do to take the human element out of the equation [TS]

  and say Let everybody Lyall every really crappy [TS]

  but even then you don't have like OK they were crappy about estimating for this type of thing [TS]

  but what about that everything maybe they're better estimating then you're hoping it's going to home in on some kind of [TS]

  average but I have a feeling that unless you find yourself doing the same kind of task over [TS]

  and over again which would be super boring [TS]

  and most good programmers don't want to do it'll be difficult to get something really predictable out of that system [TS]

  right so Marco do you want to tell us about something else that's really excellent and then John I'd like you to. [TS]

  Part all of the arguments are just because of that sure thing. [TS]

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  Ducting dot com Thanks a lot for sponsoring the show once again. [TS]

  They should have a song with peeps and groups with a name like Tang. Or just bells. That's true too on the nose. [TS]

  Goodness. [TS]

  So really quickly before John destroys all of the points I just made a friend of the show David Smith said earlier in [TS]

  the chat and I'm quoting from Slash addles purpose is to attempt to try and extract a consistent [TS]

  or predictable performance out of an uncontrollable situation. [TS]

  It is better than nothing [TS]

  but it is no replacement for talented motivated developers who can get things done in Anita Vironment methodology to [TS]

  help reduce the impact of individual talents on the overall outcome and I think that that really makes a lot of sense. [TS]

  And I completely agree with that. [TS]

  But with that said John Jeremy apart now it's not you it's like the it's the overall concept of having a particular [TS]

  method by which you develop software like the reason Marco has a sort of is a reaction against that [TS]

  and I think most programmers do [TS]

  when they're in the type of environment is that if you spend any time programming you whether on your own [TS]

  or in even just a small group just one [TS]

  or two other people especially in small groups where you kind of like get a feel like this is what it's like to make [TS]

  software this is you know this is what the experience is like here. [TS]

  I learned that you learn kind of what works [TS]

  and what doesn't in terms of getting the job done independent of any schedules and stuff like that [TS]

  and what works is having a bunch of talented people who are motivated [TS]

  and excited about the thing that they're doing right. [TS]

  And so all these methodology is in some respects are attempts usually good hearted [TS]

  and sometimes vaguely effective attempts to take for example mediocre programmers [TS]

  and making them into great programmers or to take great programmers who don't care about something [TS]

  and make them care about everyone wants like what we want is what happens [TS]

  when you get a bunch of talented people working on the same product who are good at their jobs who are excited about [TS]

  what they're going to do and large companies say well we can't do that because we're too big [TS]

  and people are excited about our stuff and it's hard to get that many people who are talented [TS]

  or even if you could get a many people who are Tampa they don't get along with each other [TS]

  and they can have group so we need some sort of method to arrange all of this so that we so that we get some sort of [TS]

  somewhat predictable performance out about what we've got what we've got is maybe we'll get really talented people [TS]

  we've got not so down to people maybe we got people who are excited and people are excited. [TS]

  People disagree about how things are going to go [TS]

  and we have a whole bunch of people telling them what to do so they don't even get to decide which direction the [TS]

  product goes in and they have we want them to do that in a consistent manner [TS]

  and so if you're in this environment you're like you start to feel if you does not this alone [TS]

  and got rid of Dave who stinks like and then we would get this thing done [TS]

  but instead we have to go through these stupid steps of this methodology in these user stories in these meetings [TS]

  and these points in the going through those Nothing it was like look I'm a software developer I know what made you [TS]

  think they are good software it just put me in charge of the world and I'll tell everyone exactly what to do [TS]

  and just me my three friends would like everyone to get back to that thing whereas if you want a couple friends in a [TS]

  room working on your program which which is how lots of great software is made [TS]

  and all this methodology stuff seems like it's pointless busy work and doesn't actually make anything better [TS]

  and I think a lot of times it is pointless busywork doesn't make it any better [TS]

  and the only thing that it makes better is that as people point to. [TS]

  Chat Room people higher up on the org chart can point to well we've been following this methodology [TS]

  and it has predictable results and look at our things to say we have we know how many points [TS]

  and our velocity involved was so kind of like covering your ass that so you're not going to get fired because what we [TS]

  have a methodology in this is what we do. [TS]

  But in effect everyone in that organization might feel like the stupid methodology is making us less efficient less [TS]

  happy making us do worse work than we would if we just again Fire Dave because it stinks [TS]

  and we have got three of us go off for a week [TS]

  and it will solve your freaking But like that's how programmers feel like the cowboy coder like to stand aside I know [TS]

  exactly what I'm going to do. [TS]

  Like that's the tension between the sort of feeling that any experienced programmer has that if you just let us do what [TS]

  we need to do we could get it done you know and the reality that if you're on a large project you can't do that. [TS]

  This is where this tension is and some people are trying to apply a methodology to to make order out of this chaos [TS]

  and the people who are contributing to the chaos always feel like anything you impose on me is making things worse [TS]

  and they get grumpy about it and so some people look at religion and say oh I'm going to get into this process [TS]

  and I like [TS]

  and it's predictable like bottom line is you know a large organization is ever going to achieve the ideal of a handful [TS]

  of talented like minded people communicating well and even like [TS]

  and that article open the show it's like of why software mythologies don't work even if the ideals like all of us focus [TS]

  on communication to make sure we have personalities [TS]

  but to get like those solutions are not scalable to organizations of hundreds of people like him no no way for people [TS]

  to do a job together [TS]

  and you know at at peak performance is scalable to hundreds of people because inevitably personality conflicts is going [TS]

  to be disagreements and that's why you inevitably have to fall back to some kind of method. [TS]

  Now for things that are regularize which isn't point out a million times like building a road or building bridges [TS]

  or things people have been doing for hundreds of years that are very simple you know very much success [TS]

  and failure was the need to be spent over the course water needs carry this much weight a need to the stand these [TS]

  conditions need to last this long. We've done this twenty times before. [TS]

  Our We know exactly the steps that are required to take still things can get screwed up [TS]

  and we can try new methods they might mess up [TS]

  but in general it is way easier than even the simplest software product where no one has made a specific thing before [TS]

  with the specific requirements people don't even know what the requirements are [TS]

  and they're going to change a million times like software is so much more complicated than pretty much anything else [TS]

  humans do except maybe parenting impossible to predict you know what's required to go into it [TS]

  and so we're willing to accept essentially a massive reduction in peak performance just for some Grassman like can we [TS]

  get some predictability of that even if it means that are you know they're working slower like that's part [TS]

  and once you get a certain size in a public company like I don't care how much crappier it makes us as long as we're [TS]

  still still able to stay in business I want everyone to follow whatever methodology A.B.C. [TS]

  India whatever processes even if I know that this is going to send the best programmers out of the company because they [TS]

  don't want to work for us anymore [TS]

  and we're not going to get the peak performance that we were just better than the unpredictable cast because if you're [TS]

  not one of the programmers [TS]

  but you're one of the people in charge you could very quickly feel like you're nobody's in charge nobody's at the wheel [TS]

  you're does up there and you just like Whisper down to the person [TS]

  and say well hey guys you think you could make a program do this [TS]

  and then you just wait to hear reply with your fingers crossed like that's not a way to run an organization so these [TS]

  rules always have to apply but they're always going to feel like they're making things work [TS]

  and in many respects they're there wishful thinking that you are going to somehow convert the correct process to turn [TS]

  this huge team of people into the equivalent of seventeen rooms full of five people who are really motivated. [TS]

  You know the funny thing about everything you're saying is and this was pointed out to me on Twitter by Chris each [TS]

  and he's right is that the origin of agile. Why do you try to get away from oversight by management. [TS]

  And so the whole idea of scrum [TS]

  and agile is that you self manage as a team the team is self-governing you establish a team norms. [TS]

  So you know we're always going to be on time to meetings which never actually happens. [TS]

  We're always going to pay attention during meetings which never actually happens. [TS]

  And you're trying to get everyone to get along in agreement like that's you [TS]

  but you can't do that like that's not how that's not how human human relations work. [TS]

  Like if we just all agree they will be friendly and motivated [TS]

  and work well together then we will not follow works like you can't from. [TS]

  It's like coming from the outside and saying it would be nice if all the interaction with other groups were this way [TS]

  and then if you say that to each other that doesn't make it so. [TS]

  Like these two people still hate each other always going to these two people disagree strongly about this technical [TS]

  issue there you know telling them that they shouldn't disagree is not going to work like it's kind of like shifting the [TS]

  things around on the table like OK well we don't want people who are programmers telling us on sure if we just let all [TS]

  the programmer sort out they'll do fine no you just move those those dynamics to a different group of people a [TS]

  different even more passive aggressive group of people. [TS]

  So I take it John that you've never been in a situation wherein you feel like the math improved the product processes [TS]

  sometimes improve the product and I like that for large organizations you have to have processes [TS]

  and you have to have methods because if you don't it's just wildly unpredictable [TS]

  and depending specially with your mix of people like the herd is like if you have a bunch of great programmers [TS]

  and you can listen to it [TS]

  or the one your be awesomely successful if you have a bunch of mediocre programmers you need to apply you know process [TS]

  the methodology and if you have a bunch of crappy programmers you need massive methodology application to them. [TS]

  And then in the end of it all those situations you end up with a product of similar quality what I don't know if I [TS]

  believe that and I don't know which one of those things is better [TS]

  but most most companies are a mix of those type of things and it's just there. I don't think there's any avoiding. [TS]

  With something as complicated [TS]

  and unpredictable software I don't think there's any avoiding that dynamic that small groups of folks really smart [TS]

  people can do great. [TS]

  In short periods of times things that larger groups of less motivated less experienced less talented people can never [TS]

  do like is not like OK we'll take these five people in the room a year to do this but if I have three hundred people [TS]

  and three years I know you will never equal them with three hundred people if you don't have the right five for example. [TS]

  It's because it's not a predictable thing because it's not something you can systematize some of the chairman saying oh [TS]

  c'mon there's plenty of things that are more complex than software. [TS]

  Plain natural things not not plenty of manmade things like I would say some forty seven I mean the consequences of [TS]

  errors and forty seven are much greater but software is much more complicated the consequences easily stupid [TS]

  and pointless and nobody cares which is why we get away with this. [TS]

  Software is insanely complex in terms of you know what. [TS]

  What number of states can can this thing be end [TS]

  and how how many transitions from one state to another going to go through the friggin halting problem we can't even [TS]

  reason make basic reasons about arbitrary programs that you're going to consider it. [TS]

  Programming is is different by nature than most things that people do it just so happens that the consequences are [TS]

  usually not that serious. [TS]

  That's when you see a program where there is real consequences like you know missile control systems or things [TS]

  and planes hopefully they have a massive process applied on them like they're willing to sacrifice productivity [TS]

  and you know job satisfaction [TS]

  and not have the smartest people to say look we have crazy requirements about how everything must be done in the most [TS]

  conservative fashion possible and it's like some people look at and say it's a miserable existence [TS]

  but like that's our only tool to say we would like to make a program but we'd also like it not to fail. Like ever. [TS]

  And so we're going to apply the methodology nucular bomb or nuclear if you are not a crackly to this problem [TS]

  and we're going to make it miserable for like no one would sign up for this like you can't use these features you're [TS]

  not allowed to ever allocate memory we have the system system for do it like for the space program it's not like that. [TS]

  That's our only tool like method [TS]

  and that's what our tool is for for trying to make it so that you know we can minimize. [TS]

  Dog to make it reliable [TS]

  but it destroys productivity you can use that same methodology that you use like the Mars rover software you can't use [TS]

  that to make like Whatsapp like you know he'll be out of business it's not you know you can you can even use them a guy [TS]

  Wes for crying out loud like you would they would never produce a product you know. [TS]

  Think how many years and they would never get the people who want to work on it so it's. [TS]

  That's how I think that's the place of methodology like it's it is an evil that is necessary to the degree to which you [TS]

  would demand predictability of the software [TS]

  and even then you have things going out of orbit because of unit conversion errors [TS]

  and this bug you know like we're never perfect so I feel for the people who want methodologies to make things better. [TS]

  But I mostly see it as like the only tool we have to try to fight against the inherent chaos of writing software in it [TS]

  as per usual. [TS]

  I think you've hit the nail on the head in Coincidentally I was about to bring up that there are instances where [TS]

  waterfall which among software developers is considered to be evil in almost all cases there are instances where [TS]

  waterfall is absolutely the correct answer [TS]

  and in fact as I kind of hinted at during the debug that I was on with Guy and Rene as plug [TS]

  and if I do what I can to get accidentally half way through the thank you I say yes it is [TS]

  when I was working on some stuff for where failure was not an option. [TS]

  We had pretty much everything that was waterfall a lot of planning up front a lot of meetings up front code reviews [TS]

  and all of these things [TS]

  and that was in order to prevent exactly what you describe John you know it was to prevent a poor poor unit conversion [TS]

  or something along those lines [TS]

  and in that situation it was absolutely necessary it was absolutely necessary absolutely the right answer [TS]

  and absolutely the right way to get that project done. The problem was is that as a developer especially one who tends. [TS]

  Two want to sling code [TS]

  and rather than talk about slinging code it was incredibly neutering to me is that a word it doesn't matter anyway it [TS]

  made me it made me feel like I could never get anything done because I just had to talk about getting things done [TS]

  and it was very frustrating [TS]

  but I don't begrudge my then employer for doing things that way it was absolutely the right call. [TS]

  It's just it wasn't the right call for me. [TS]

  Waterfalls like almost impossible with anything that's reasonably complex because nobody knows what the correct line [TS]

  for it is no matter how much you talk about it like you could you could talk for three years to come up with a design [TS]

  and once you start implementing it on a third day you're going to go with us wouldn't think of that like the running [TS]

  program is too complicated for ever [TS]

  and to keep in their head unlike what happens at that point is do you bravely plow forward with the waterfall design. [TS]

  Do you you know go back to the drawing board and start all over again or do you just make some little tweak [TS]

  and then like you end up with this thing of kind of misshapen It's like putting the other piece of furniture in one [TS]

  piece of wood is like Bent Barely they fall the plan right and slot and have be it. Yeah yeah. [TS]

  In consent only Marco to bring him back into the conversation has dealt with a lot of that lately. [TS]

  Not as many wonderful stuff but not as much wonderful but but you've dealt with the reality [TS]

  and realization that you know what maybe I need to throw away a lot of work I've done and and do it all over again. [TS]

  Oh yeah I mean that's I mentioned in the after show about four episodes ago I think it was about a month ago [TS]

  and I don't I think I even cut it out of the final edit. [TS]

  But the lead listeners probably heard me a month ago to say that I was rewriting the overcast sync engine because I [TS]

  discovered some sync shortcomings and I was we were in the engine to be much better and everything else [TS]

  and at the same time I was doing of course you know you can. In hindsight I can see why this is a bad idea. [TS]

  While you're in the sync engine on the whole the whole protocol with which it's saying to the server. [TS]

  I also took the opportunity to break up the data model for some of the for for the two key models of the apertures pod [TS]

  cast and episodes. [TS]

  I broke I broke off parts of those that were that were use or parts of them in several models [TS]

  and this required such massive changes to the code on both sides server [TS]

  and client at the same time I was I was also changing the same protocol [TS]

  and trying to make it generic so I could use like you know the one master super class flash library functions to sink [TS]

  anything and the result was I lost a month basically. [TS]

  And last night I decided you know as I was staring in there with with the parts of my of my applique on the floor still [TS]

  and as I was trying to rework the changes you know still back into the app [TS]

  and I realized I was throwing away so much working behavior [TS]

  and so much like nuance complicated stuff especially in the I.O.'s app that depended on the old model. [TS]

  Meanwhile this whole time on my carry i Phone My main i Phone I was using the old version of the app for a month ago [TS]

  because this whole time I couldn't put a new build on yet because it was broken and for the whole month it's been fine. [TS]

  It's been working great [TS]

  and I've been sitting here using this build for this supposedly like unshockable alpha software. [TS]

  I've been doing the same build for a month every day heavily and it's been perfectly fine and I realize you know what. [TS]

  Now that I'm like you know two thirds of the way into this massive sink change I realize now that even if I get it all [TS]

  back together it's going to be too complicated too fragile and not at all maintainable [TS]

  and so even if I finish this the result will be worse than what I had before I was wrong [TS]

  when I thought it would be better. In practice it's not better. [TS]

  So therefore I decided to go back to what I had [TS]

  and I spent today basically reverting back to the old version from a month ago and merging in a few. [TS]

  Basically cherry picking by hand a few of the improvements I made that that will fit in the old system just fine [TS]

  and so I've I've lost. [TS]

  I wasn't doing this home when I was doing stuff I could keep but I would say I probably threw away two [TS]

  and a half weeks of work because the result is actually better the old way. [TS]

  I think you're only on step one of four of the Brent Simmons thinking developed because I think at this point now you [TS]

  have to also throw away this one again and try the other one [TS]

  and then you have to revert back again to the previous year following the Brinson [TS]

  and Vesper think a diary plan of thinking software development you've got a long road ahead of you. [TS]

  And to be fair you know to bring this very briefly back to methodology. [TS]

  No methodology would have fixed that in my in my estimation you know what I mean it take longer. [TS]

  Yeah you're absolutely right like Agile would have [TS]

  or would have forced you to ship something you didn't want to ship because it home [TS]

  and in areas where there are constraints like that that's what I was getting at is like that a lot of timed [TS]

  methodologies are seen as the way to solve your problem [TS]

  when your problem really might be your one software you have working on a sync system is not written a sync system [TS]

  before and there's no methodology that's going to make that go faster. [TS]

  Make it come out better like there are lots of practices that week that you can adopt him it is not like saying oh we [TS]

  should just be the Wild West like for example practices that should be imposed on people that I think everyone agree on [TS]

  like you know I don't pick a language or try to like Javascript but the stupid use strict token [TS]

  or if you decide that's a reasonable thing to do [TS]

  and I think it isn't it it doesn't affect your compatibility to say everybody's got [TS]

  but the javascript script defined deciding on your compiler flags having some sort of common naming convention [TS]

  and indenting style I wrote all the easy things that people can agree on that stuff counts and it helps everybody but. [TS]

  People say that's good. Coming up with agreement on the standards helps. [TS]

  If we come up with agreement on even bigger more sweeping changes surely will get a proportional benefit [TS]

  and you don't like you you get I mean that you start talking about testing I think as that testing is definitely [TS]

  something you really need and it's great [TS]

  and testing taken to its logical conclusion a tester in development is certainly better than having no tests at all [TS]

  but you can't just keep cranking that dial until it's like now just everything will be perfect all the time because of [TS]

  a little bit of testing help [TS]

  and a little bit more testing is great that if we have one hundred percent code coverage everything testing we've [TS]

  solved the problem of software development and you haven't. [TS]

  And unit testing is something that I think is a little bit kind of taboo is the word I'm looking for [TS]

  but not a lot of developers that I know are really into it [TS]

  and I would argue that test driven development is taking it a bit too far in my personal opinion but. [TS]

  But writing writing comprehensive unit tests is all the same sort of thing as code reviews where first I was like oh [TS]

  god really this is a thing we have to do every want to sort of my code and try to tell me why it's wrong [TS]

  and they don't realize that I'm actually right now I've got to convince all these people. [TS]

  But in the end it actually worked. [TS]

  Code reviews were extremely extremely interesting [TS]

  and I always learn something from it even if I never change my code and most times I did change my code. [TS]

  Unit testing is a summer thing words like I don't really need regular test for all these things. [TS]

  I run it a few times I give it a few example inputs and that should be enough right. [TS]

  But unit testing is an unbelievably awesome way to make sure that not only that what you've written works [TS]

  but also that it will stay working and that's what's extremely powerful about it [TS]

  and you can take it to the nth degree which is tested in development or you can use it where appropriate [TS]

  and one of the things that that I need to explore more in Objective C. [TS]

  Is looking at like Xcode unit testing framework has never really played with it but there is great. [TS]

  Frameworks [TS]

  and Java in Dot Net like any unit for example in him actually Microsoft has their own copied version of that [TS]

  but that would allow you to know of course if that allow you to do those sorts of things [TS]

  and I agree with you John that that you know having these unit tests is or is a really valuable thing. [TS]

  Every methodology has something about it that you can take away from it that's good like waterfall has some good things [TS]

  about it as in like I think about we're going to afford to have agile and some good things about it I can you know. [TS]

  Let's take smaller steps because if you if you don't know that if you describe something as one big giant step you have [TS]

  no idea what's involved in and they can break it into smaller steps than you have [TS]

  and I think that's from the Gantt chart as well but also you get that experience agile tester in development. [TS]

  Lot of developers left to their own devices won't do test so if you if you try to indoctrinate them into this crazy [TS]

  cult of test driven development then they'll learn to write tests [TS]

  and I think I think Petron realm is actually not that far off from something that everybody should do it's just that [TS]

  it's so far off from what people would do on their own that it seems crazy at first [TS]

  and I'm I'm a big proponent of massive amounts of testing what you run into eventually with test your Novell man [TS]

  or any kind of testing thing is that tests are also code like it's not like another fallible person comes [TS]

  and writes the tests right and it doesn't mean you shouldn't write test that doesn't invalidate it [TS]

  but it like that's the limit that you get limited you hit a certain point is that your you know tests [TS]

  or code you're not infallible when you write them either [TS]

  and the more of them you write the more difficult changes become both in good and bad ways [TS]

  and like so every one of these things if taken too far can have problems [TS]

  and that's what we're looking for is like oh just if we got those two [TS]

  or three guys who really kind of know the doing [TS]

  and have had experience with each of the things they're going to be doing and have done something like this before [TS]

  and can kind of get the balance [TS]

  and just you know firing on all cylinders in the project small to fit all in all their heads collectively [TS]

  and then you know they're super geniuses [TS]

  and make this great one point no product with this great potential future they handed off to another group like we're [TS]

  all trying to go to get to recapture that it's like it's like trying to recapture you like. [TS]

  You're never going to get there again you're never going to be like you were when you were sixteen years old [TS]

  and I guess we can just apply the series of constraints [TS]

  but there are like there's wisdom in every experience that you had that you want to apply [TS]

  and in some respects it doesn't matter if you're in an organization it's like you know whoever the Chargers things are [TS]

  that all of the way we go over the chart of things as we go to test driven [TS]

  or we have to pair program we have to if you like someone's leaning heavily on whatever button or dial [TS]

  or accelerated I think is the best thing in the end what matters is like the people in the group the dynamics within [TS]

  the people their motivation for what they're doing and their skills [TS]

  and experience how they done something like this before [TS]

  and almost any minute ology you apply to them will appear to work because they would have been fine in any situation [TS]

  and those same people you know would choose to to write test because they know it's good like that because no [TS]

  methodology that omits tests entirely because I've been saying there's no methodology that omits any planning up front [TS]

  because we hit waterfall like this there's always there's always something some piece of every one of them like you no [TS]

  matter what methodology you apply to a bunch of good people and they will pull all the parts from each one of them [TS]

  and the problems only come in when it's like you know and how long ago it was like no silver bullet written [TS]

  and you know the red brick stuff like that's not so long ago as we've known this for so long as people keep reaching [TS]

  for that for that brass ring and saying This time I've got and every time is like you don't have it [TS]

  but you've discovered something new that maybe we can take away from what you're preaching and move forward. [TS]

  So in summary you know methodologies can help. [TS]

  But really they're not going to fix anything and it's all a bunch of hocus pocus. [TS]

  With that said we should say just wishes you are no sponsor was going to say that both of us should convince Marco to [TS]

  write way more tests than he's currently writing which is to say more than zero. [TS]

  I don't know what that number is I was going to say I'm just saying which is to say more than zero. [TS]

  Yes I would suggest that I would say what I really want [TS]

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  and apply to things like this Chris has once again member offer code critical if you have been hearing Squarespace ads [TS]

  on podcasts for months [TS]

  but not going to the site to sign up as a time to do it with my code to show the other two I wonder if I can get them [TS]

  to tell me like you know in a couple of months which of our codes one yet it's too late for you to use an ivory body [TS]

  pile on my code so in markets of information I'll be the overwhelming winner. [TS]

  Well I don't think our code stopped working. [TS]

  I'm pretty sure the code still work it just you know another that would be bad because then like you whoever the first [TS]

  code would have the accumulation of the you know the months of of user signing up anyway. Everyone is Micah. [TS]

  Casey was the. After all this time was the methodology used to talk on the show everything you hoped it would be. [TS]

  Now actually really wasn't. I think it's over though. Are we done. [TS]

  Are we I don't know we don't have to be [TS]

  and we don't have to be I don't really have so much more to say To be honest after all that. [TS]

  Well I have a question for each one of you. I mean we are going to have nine of us at the follow up. [TS]

  Maybe Marco going to stay in but like which one methodology or part of the methodology. Have you found to be. [TS]

  Make the biggest improvement in how and how you feel about coding or how you write code. [TS]

  So Marco do you have an answer for that. I don't have to be like a formal wonders anything you've done. [TS]

  You know honestly what has improved my code the most by far has been open sourcing it [TS]

  and not necessarily because of the contributions I get which are good but I look at a whole lot of them. [TS]

  It's mostly that if I know I'm going to be open sourcing it I hold myself to a higher standard and I [TS]

  and I kind of reconsider my decisions more and so by by editing myself more [TS]

  and by by pushing myself to a higher level discipline for these very important modules that I'm open sourcing that that [TS]

  has helped me to radically and you know as a defensive helper there is you know I don't really have a code review. [TS]

  I don't have pair programming. [TS]

  You know there's a lot of of methodology type stuff that I just can't do as one person [TS]

  and a lot of the stuff I could do like having tons of tests I could do a lot of that stuff. [TS]

  But it's it it would take so much of my time it would slow me down so much that it might not be worthwhile or [TS]

  or practical for me to do that and so I don't do a whole lot of stuff [TS]

  but certainly yeah open sourcing by far that's that's helping with anything so for me I would say that I think scrum [TS]

  which is to say the thing where you get together either physically or on the phone for five to fifteen minutes each. [TS]

  Day and talk about what you've done and what you're doing and what stands in your way. [TS]

  That sounds wonderful in theory and in practice never works. [TS]

  Even in my company where we take agile extremely seriously [TS]

  and of course all the people who think I'm wrong about everything are laughing right now [TS]

  but we do take Advil very seriously and whether or not you think I am. [TS]

  I know what I'm talking about I show you that they do and so they they take scrum very seriously [TS]

  and we have scrums every single day [TS]

  and even though we take all this stuff so seriously describes never last the fifteen minutes are supposed to last [TS]

  and they always go on to tangents that they're not supposed to go in [TS]

  and so scrum is never help however that one project where we had that perfect storm of willing [TS]

  and capable developers willing and capable keyway willing and capable pm and willing [TS]

  and capable product owner slash client when all of us really went all in on agile and really bought into it [TS]

  and really believed in it and really took it seriously. [TS]

  It was fantastic because it allowed for us to roll with the client's ever changing requests which to be fair they were [TS]

  actually very good to us and didn't really change things that often but [TS]

  when they did the product owner the client would come to us and say oh I really want to do this thing. [TS]

  How much will how many points is that and we'll go and talk for a few minutes OK it's eight points. [TS]

  Man All right let me figure out what points I want to get rid of and I'll get back to you. [TS]

  And we didn't have to argue with them. There was no scope creep there was no. [TS]

  Well if you'd like this to happen you're going to have to take some other stuff. [TS]

  How much other stuff we don't know you just have to take out of the stuff I did so much. [TS]

  None of that awkward conversation happened. [TS]

  They took it upon themselves to realize well you know what you've told me that. [TS]

  That that this thing that I really want is eight points [TS]

  and so I know that I need to take away eight points from what's currently on the docket. [TS]

  And oh my god it was so wonderful I mean I genuinely It was so wonderful [TS]

  and I think this is exacerbated by the fact that in consulting you have this client versus one of vs necessarily the [TS]

  you have the your client in your own team and sometimes that can be an adversarial relationship but when you [TS]

  when we were on the same page with agile it was so wonderful because we were truly honestly partners in getting this [TS]

  project on and it was great and so to answer questions on the one of the ten [TS]

  or so years I've been working the one time that agile really really really really stuck. It was incredible. [TS]

  But to be fair I've tried agile many many other times and it hasn't really worked out that well. [TS]

  And at best it was a distraction and at worst it was a hindrance. [TS]

  Yeah I would say for me it's hard to pick because a lot of things like a lot of steps [TS]

  and things that I've done that for the better [TS]

  and I recognize Marco's thing with open sourcing stuff like me having a lot of my Coby open sores all in my career now [TS]

  is super embarrassing. [TS]

  That really helped you know for all the reasons Marcus I like you just feel the pressure to make it better [TS]

  and especially when you're young developer working on your own. [TS]

  Like I was under slight you know random open source stuff. You need some kind of external motivation. [TS]

  You don't have a boss telling you to do it [TS]

  or maybe you don't have other experienced programmers trying to get you to stuff [TS]

  but I think the thing that has made the biggest impact on me in terms of how I develop software was as I started to do [TS]

  more and more testing [TS]

  and not in any particular thing not particularly test driven not particular even unit test versus integration does [TS]

  or has five sets but is the idea that testing is not like eating your vegetables and I know I had turned a corner [TS]

  when I think. [TS]

  One [TS]

  or two jobs ago at some point there was some fairly complicated project that they wanted with like you know this big long [TS]

  description of how it's supposed to work written entirely by non-technical people so of course they have no ideas about [TS]

  feasibility or anything like that and they needed in a super short time frame [TS]

  and they're like you know this is super important we know it's really complicated [TS]

  but like him you know we have all this meeting about it like what's going to take to get this thing done. [TS]

  And my reaction to being put in that situation to be like the you know the lead guy on this project was immediately to [TS]

  to revert to kind of like you know not test driven entirely [TS]

  but like to say I'm going to need a massive amount of tests more testing than my tests have to be great [TS]

  and I have to be awesome [TS]

  and I have to really constant I think because that's the fastest way to get this thing done on time with the fewest [TS]

  bugs so on and so forth [TS]

  and the fact that that was my reaction shows that I had you know sort of learned through bitter experience that testing [TS]

  is not like eating your vegetables is not like a luxury you can get that you can afford to do like if you had the extra [TS]

  time or whatever but rather when you're under the gun is when you really need to pull that out of your back pocket [TS]

  and not be you know you know religious about it [TS]

  and say like oh yeah I'm not going to take a step until I've got a failing test [TS]

  and all this other stuff like not that crazy [TS]

  but just like for me to feel confident that I can move at my fastest pace I have to be sure that the code I have I'm [TS]

  writing is correct and in the code that I've written remains correct. [TS]

  During this entire development process and I've never been under quite the same constraints before [TS]

  but now like that's an example of a turnaround methodology I think people do pair programming have the same feeling [TS]

  sometimes or it's like I'm not going to do that all the time as the most extreme thing but [TS]

  when push comes to shove I know which styles I can turn to myself to get my best performance [TS]

  and I will choose from those things and I think testing is the one that probably I don't even know how. [TS]

  Probably you know because the test Urban Development like you know hype and everything [TS]

  but I would not have thought of that on my own to be the thing that I should do when I was young programmer but event. [TS]

  So they came to have it as one of the tools in my toolbox and I have a now and I try to prejudge other people [TS]

  but I say I like it. It should be something that you do from time to time to know how it affects your work. [TS]

  Yeah and I agree and it's funny because the formal unit testing is something [TS]

  and also formal integration testing is something that I find often gets punted if you're running out of time or budget. [TS]

  Additionally performance testing is another example of something that gets punted if you don't have a lot of if you're [TS]

  running out of time running on a budget. [TS]

  But all of those things are extraordinarily important to give a deliverable that you're really truly proud of [TS]

  and it's a hard thing man when when when somebody is looking at you being a project manager [TS]

  or a client saying oh my goodness you really really really need to get this thing shipped in you say no my test classes [TS]

  aren't complete yet so there is not enough code coverage so you need to leave me alone. [TS]

  So hard thing to sell and it's a hard thing to say [TS]

  but so often if you don't get that right up front you don't pay for it later. Same thing with performance testing. [TS]

  Oh well you know we don't need to worry about that we shouldn't have but five users at a time. [TS]

  And something weird happens next you know you have five hundred users at the same time [TS]

  and your Web site comes to a screeching halt. [TS]

  The key thing is to recognize when each tool is appropriate for the example that I cited. [TS]

  I was handed a big giant you know card documentaries [TS]

  or documents of this complex system not written as a program expect by any means that merely written as like like you [TS]

  know a fantasy scenario would be cool if and what about this [TS]

  and this would do this in the sort of the really complicated stuff it involves tables [TS]

  or whatever it was kind of like an intentional waterfall where it was like a big idea of a complex system that is just [TS]

  now in the kind of like blue sky ink stage [TS]

  but there needs to be needs to be shipped this software in like a very short period time like less than a month. Right. [TS]

  And. That's a case where you can say look if you agree this is how this is. [TS]

  This needs to work and you think you've got it all down. [TS]

  It's the fastest way for me to do this is to lean heavily on testing because there are so many complicated scenarios [TS]

  that I need to run through [TS]

  and it's not like I'm going to get one hundred percent coverage is not going to test every possible iteration of input [TS]

  but at the very least this document here describes many different situations and how they interact. [TS]

  And I can test every single one of those things. [TS]

  It's the only way I'm going to be able to ratchet my way through this code [TS]

  and that's different than a situation of like well we're not quite sure what we want to make it [TS]

  but it's an economy like this [TS]

  and in that case writing all these tests would just be like pinning yourself down the spider webs while you're trying [TS]

  to to move to an unknown destination. [TS]

  So you have to recognize like when do I have enough information to really pin this down the test right now. [TS]

  Or when do I have to do kind of a more fast and loose agile type thing of all this get something up and running [TS]

  and we'll look at it will poke around that it will see how it like in that case you're wasting your time to writing [TS]

  and changing writing and changing tests for something you're not even sure how it's supposed to work. [TS]

  So in all these cases like you can't you can't use the same tool for all different situations you have to know like in [TS]

  Margot's case when he's doing the U.I. [TS]

  I like this look over there how does this transition look maybe this button should be over there maybe is actually [TS]

  shouldn't be a button it should be a slight error let me try this with a gesture like writing tests for all those cases [TS]

  would just slow them down it would not help whereas for example the sync code which can be largely faceless is like an [TS]

  eye [TS]

  and very complicated in many different states is an ideal opportunity to do a very complicated series of data driven tests [TS]

  and maybe even some fuzz testing to be a consonant of this tiny little kernel of stuff that you've made works the way [TS]

  you expect it. [TS]

  Oh yeah and one of the reasons why I don't write a lot of tests is because most of the code I write [TS]

  and especially most of the most of the difficult tricky code I write is the form which is it's you know U.I. [TS]

  Stuff it's much harder to test and write tests for and maintain those test I changed things [TS]

  and you know either refine the design of a you know add buttons and. [TS]

  Here's a list of around like it's it's much harder to test for I don't know I don't end up writing a lot of the like [TS]

  easily testable faceless module math that's that's very unusual for me to write a lot of that [TS]

  but you gotta know you've got the F. Something devious not to see it at C. [TS]

  Model [TS]

  and somebody else wrote Chester that this is why open source is great like that that's something that's another thing [TS]

  an open source does because most open source cultures have a culture or I'm going to say most in our culture vulture [TS]

  but I'm always depressed and I when I download something on target and you know run configure make an error [TS]

  and make tests and it says no make That's not what you're talking about and like but [TS]

  but yeah most most of the newer software culture is in dynamically reasons than Amy jobs from stuff like testing is [TS]

  part of the culture if you really something as open source you're kind of expected this social pressure to say where is [TS]

  the test suite. How can I tell that this works on my system I want to immediately you know run the test suite. [TS]

  Perl is super crazy on the testing thing where you want to even install modules [TS]

  and they don't pass their test unless you know the secret incantation to tell it don't bother running the tests [TS]

  and that runs into all the N.T. [TS]

  Parents I talk about like well tests or software too [TS]

  and the people who wrote them aren't infallible so a lot of times the model won't stop because the test won't pass [TS]

  but the tests are wrong and because they were written by another fallible human and you know it's you go too far [TS]

  and that direction as well but overall it's it's a good idea to do you know test until it hurts basically and then [TS]

  and then back into the goodness right so we good. [TS]

  Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week influx by brave wave King and Squarespace and we will see you next week. [TS]

  Now that's a dental accidentals. Because it was that this was banks and then and she was sitting in the first place. [TS]

  It sets to that list and Michael. [TS]

  Gentlemen thank you for letting me have my moments and you know I want to talk about too [TS]

  but I think the promise of home of the knowledge is too big a topic it's like software development right to discuss [TS]

  software What do you think guys in the other thing is occurred to me that I was describing my experience with agile [TS]

  but I know that we're going to or I'm going to get much e-mail [TS]

  and is all that's not how it all is so you're calling scrum agile and agile scrum [TS]

  and you don't know what you don't get on that. I'm not looking forward to that at all. [TS]

  I'm just glad because last week when when I asked people to tell me what they were in the nation that about warnings [TS]

  and production I don't think I have I don't think we've ever gotten that much feedback and it was like seriously. [TS]

  Every time I check my email all day long there be three more and they were each five paragraphs long like it was. [TS]

  It was actually a lot to keep up with [TS]

  when you solicited like Tell me about the problems that you have it your work people will say we didn't solicit [TS]

  feedback on the show about her methodology. [TS]

  But when we get to things like if you were doing it right like you can put the butter in the coffee [TS]

  or whatever like that although I knew I'd like this kind of like you know you don't understand my. [TS]

  A religion is the true religion and you're doing it ever so slightly wrong [TS]

  and I give only you didn't eat shellfish you'd be fine like it that's what I was trying to get at the beginning of like [TS]

  the whole point to soften analogies like to take to attempt to impose order [TS]

  and to make things better than they could ever possibly be like. No software methodology can possibly do this. [TS]

  Like there is there is no the Silverball there's nothing you can do to make it as good as it can possibly be. [TS]

  You just have to decide what is the appropriate level of annoyance for the given task at hand [TS]

  and then there are many things to choose from and some are better than others and people write and tell us that [TS]

  but I don't think we're getting the absoluteness who are like you know pair program is the only way to do programming [TS]

  and we're not doing pair programming is doing it wrong [TS]

  and there's no way anyone who's not doing pair programming can be as good as some of doing pair programming. [TS]

  Well I don't think they will because they will listen [TS]

  and the thing is like that's the thing because he was like unless you have a time machine you can't beat us these [TS]

  things because software is like you know it's always different like you have to get the same exact people solving the [TS]

  same exact problem the same exact combine with the same exact knowledge about the Dome of the product they have your [TS]

  knowledge and you can find people who are identical who have this like it is impossible to validly A.B. [TS]

  Test because everything software engineers engineers do is novel in some small way. [TS]

  Yeah that's one of the problems with a lot of these things like you know [TS]

  and this I mean this is a problem in so many fields and so many so many actions but like [TS]

  when you can't really scientifically test the stuff very easily if at all then you know you might do something in your [TS]

  methodology and ascribe your success or failure to that thing when in fact it had little to do with it [TS]

  or nothing to do with it [TS]

  and that's why I look at some of so many of these things a skepticism like OK you did it this way and it worked. [TS]

  But if you did it some other way would it have also worked and it didn't work because of the way you did it [TS]

  or did it work because of the people and the conditions they were in. And there's all these. [TS]

  And he's like like I recently got into the the world of high end headphones [TS]

  and I mean the audio file world is comical in the things that it believes in and and I go on. [TS]

  On the head of fire the biggest headphone enthusiast forum [TS]

  and I have trouble relating to the people there because they're all talking about how they upgraded the cable to this [TS]

  new cable and how they can hear all sorts of things that cables can't actually make you hear [TS]

  and that all cables you know cables don't vary that much and it's all psychological [TS]

  and you're spending four hundred dollars on a headphone cable [TS]

  and like I can't understand these people because I know scientifically like what their what their thinking is invalid [TS]

  and what they're saying is wrong and and they're wasting their time [TS]

  and money doing things that are that are just totally placebo [TS]

  and I wonder how much of the methodology stuff is that same way wears what you wear you know you just you can't really [TS]

  say that helped you. [TS]

  Yeah I think I think individual people can tell what parts of the methodology they're using is helpful to them. [TS]

  Basically by by gauging their own performance that like I've gotten similar problems like this in the past [TS]

  and I've performed this way on it and it's take me this long and I've had as much difficulty and I know [TS]

  when they told me to do this I felt that I was going to have difficulty with it but I did a new thing this time [TS]

  and it helped me do it better and like that's like on an individual basis like I decided to use testing [TS]

  or I had a friend look at my code before I checked it into going to very informal code reviews [TS]

  or I clarify the requirements like that's you know becoming becoming a programmer and having experience [TS]

  and you learn what all those little things are. [TS]

  And that's also part of the frustration is if you're put into an organization where you're told to do X. Y. and Z. [TS]

  but Not this thing you know that helps you and you're like oh well you know I really I really do better [TS]

  when I'm pair programming or I can't stand pair programming it makes me unable to work. [TS]

  But the organization like it wants to have rules for everybody. [TS]

  They don't want to just do whatever the hell they want because then they felt like a man. [TS]

  That's that's the difficulty of the situation that's like even without A.B. [TS]

  Testing I feel like individual programmers can get a feel for the things that help them [TS]

  and want to repeat that you know as appropriate. The filling up of the cherub either at the audio file. [TS]

  Yes Dalton post about that today and he said he couldn't tell whether it's a joke or not either [TS]

  and I can tell you that or I can think about this but it seems like it's got to be but then you never know. [TS]

  Anything that is made for audio files promises better sound quality that has no basis in science has no basis in a B. [TS]

  X. Testing and cost a lot of money. [TS]

  It's probably not a joke that's that's the the loss of audio file crap out there is like yet some it's out there. [TS]

  They're serious and people are actually buying. [TS]

  Probably not a lot of people but enough people to make it worth selling a thousand dollar six foot cable. [TS]

  Yeah that is absolutely ridiculous but it works out to be a joke. [TS]

  When do we want to do a quick accent on neutral incorporated we want to save that for next week. [TS]

  We can do it honestly I really don't think there's much to say about it. [TS]

  I think why do you even say that you know others go. Now that's a top tier equivalent of how hard can it be. [TS]

  Exactly yeah I mean we knew about what they were calling I was in the car last summer [TS]

  and we knew this was in the works [TS]

  and there's some stuff in the Iowa seven point one S T K that's in beta still there's some stuff in there that that [TS]

  looks like it's probably related. [TS]

  And so this is not really a huge surprise [TS]

  and then even even like a month ago I think it was Steven transmit one of the one of the good I was hackers was leaking [TS]

  like screenshots of the simulator running with this thing with the card play interface anyway so it's not big news that [TS]

  this is happening. [TS]

  The important news I think is that it is twofold one that Apple's actually kind of working with the car manufacturer. [TS]

  Just to give a variety of input methods the Ferrari one that was demo was resistive touchscreen. [TS]

  The Mercedes one used to control wheel in a scream wasn't stuck screen at all [TS]

  and then some other one used to touch screen and so there's like they're showing off. [TS]

  There's a variety of different screen [TS]

  but which is important because if you look at the car screen control landscape as we've discussed many times it's all [TS]

  over the map and not everybody including our beloved B.M.W. Dailies touch screens at all. [TS]

  Lexus also stopped using them recently I believe that will probably still turn that filter to Toyota if it hasn't [TS]

  already. [TS]

  Whereas he's like a little remote dangles of some sort the remote knobs [TS]

  or pointer things are being very was more safe than touching the screen and certainly works a lot better. [TS]

  So it's nice that Apple is kind of adapting to what's out there to a degree. [TS]

  It's also not surprising that what they want is and what what this what car place seems to be is literally airplay. [TS]

  Basically it's like it's I.O.'s is creating the entire interface as a video [TS]

  and streaming it to the car's engaged system and taking over the video screen to weigh or play with a simple yes or so. [TS]

  So it's basically airplay video output at least so that Yes So Apple is taking over the screen so it's not surprising [TS]

  they're doing this. [TS]

  It's not surprising they got a few car manufacturers just to say we will do this in what will be news in the rest of my [TS]

  post but what will be news is [TS]

  when a lot of cars have shipped with this because that's still up in the air that could still not happen [TS]

  or they could still take a long time to happen [TS]

  and you know if if if if a few car makers introduce it on a few of their high end models for model year twenty fourteen [TS]

  and the future and let's say the chart like you know B.M.W. Has a thing called B.M.W. [TS]

  Apps if you want that in your car you can pay extra money in most cases on most of the models [TS]

  and so if the other manufacturers. [TS]

  Off a car play but it's a five hundred dollar option or two hundred dollar option [TS]

  or if it's an option roll it cost extra money at all and it's only on certain models. [TS]

  How long is it going to be before a lot of cars actually have this in the road and that could be a while. [TS]

  So there's you know there's two sides as a user if you buy a car with that that's great it works for you as a developer [TS]

  I think it's potentially a lot less interesting for a while unless it gets a meaningful installed base. [TS]

  I was kind of depressed by the announcement [TS]

  but it showed me is that like television thus far this announcement proves that cars are another area where Apple's not [TS]

  going to be able to make things better. [TS]

  As much as we want them to like television they have the little park and it does some things [TS]

  but it doesn't solve like the whole television problem [TS]

  and you know I go I was really hoping Apple would is go in there and solve everything like music but they're not. [TS]

  And cars same thing there. [TS]

  They come into we know like television it's all scripted you ation [TS]

  and everything there is forever like oh god apple please save us from these terrible car interfaces [TS]

  and they can't they just can't. [TS]

  Like what they're doing is saying you know please let us have access to your existing screen will you run your existing [TS]

  software and let us take over it briefly [TS]

  but that's not the way that's like saying please Johnny I have a design the i Phone four S. [TS]

  but All you get is what's on the screen. [TS]

  We're going to tell you what's surrounding it whether there's any buttons what they look like how big it is how much it [TS]

  weighs what the battery life is. [TS]

  But make a great product for us and as we've discussed some hits guys that are current here is was the neutral [TS]

  or on the show I remember it was neutral like the things that make a car interior like it's a holistic thing it's it's [TS]

  everything about it from the driving position and the visibility to how many physical controls large [TS]

  or how many virtual controls to how they interact with each other to the software the hardware it like it is one big [TS]

  whole thing [TS]

  and it's like unless Apple can design that entire thing they're not going to be able to ever really solve the problem [TS]

  and they can't design [TS]

  and hire them because they're not a car maker the same way they can't fix television because they don't know all the [TS]

  programming and they don't know all the television sets and you know. [TS]

  I guess they're doing the best they can in an ideal scenario. [TS]

  The integration required for this will shrink to some ten cent ship just like everybody has in their cars [TS]

  and they use that same chip to do interaction with Android and whatever else and it was like Well [TS]

  when you buy a car in the future whatever smartphone you have which was called phone because all phones are smartphones [TS]

  by this point we'll be able to throw up with you on the screen and make something out of it [TS]

  but that interface is always going to be less satisfactory than it would be if there was one. [TS]

  One design thought for the entire thing. [TS]

  You can't just make some rectangle on your car and say this is the rectangle or smartphone stuff happens [TS]

  or maybe there's some buttons on the steering wheel that activate [TS]

  and do stuff like you're never going to get the right really good interface with the interaction of everything [TS]

  and less someone designing the whole thing and I believe car manufacturers are not thus far capable of design [TS]

  or thing and Apple is not allowed to design the whole thing so we're kind of stuck with this crap for now. [TS]

  I guess you know the thing I've noticed is I had a heated [TS]

  but friendly debate with Dave nany in who writes the excellent software super dooper which if you don't have you should [TS]

  and he was extolling the virtues of the Tesla interface and I have not interacted with it myself [TS]

  but he was saying that it's it's extremely good and it's touchscreen done right [TS]

  and I knew it in neutral I am quite the humanly set I hate touch screens in cars and and I stand by that to this day [TS]

  but I've not seen the Tesla interface and Ne Ne and among others he was the only one [TS]

  but he was an example of somebody came out of the woodwork saying oh my god really the Tesla interface is so good in [TS]

  this is so bad and he in in a series of tweets that this might of been a direct message between the two of us [TS]

  but he said to me it's like back O. S. On the phone. Do we want that. Or another example is i O. S. On the Mac. [TS]

  Is that really what you want and whether I'm not sure if I agree with him or not because. [TS]

  Although I really don't like the name Car Play screens I saw I liked but his point is absolutely interesting [TS]

  and worth thinking about. Like is this really is this really the right answer. [TS]

  Yeah I think the right answer has to involve more than just that screaming. [TS]

  Just look at the little home button like the U.I. [TS]

  Home button Why isn't there because they can't make a hardware home button like because they're confined to that little [TS]

  screen [TS]

  and like it said that their interest is probably going to be better than the i Pod integration the car makers have been [TS]

  shipping for years simply because like look it's not rocket science people can see disintegrate we gave you this [TS]

  interface to integrate with our you know i Pods I've got it in my hand like we can you can show the track name you can [TS]

  go next in previous track but you still did a bad you got the details wrong so just give us a screen and will do [TS]

  and I thought and you know will the Syrian to Gratian [TS]

  and like in many respects as many people pointed out there are advantages over the existing systems because like now I [TS]

  can upgrade my phone and I automatically get something better with car play and all that stuff [TS]

  but if for example you your car has a really slow U.I. [TS]

  and Car players like a lag [TS]

  or if you buy your two hundred grand Ferrari is going to reduce the touchscreen upgrading your phone's not going to fix [TS]

  that with a touchscreen upgrading from not going to add a physical button [TS]

  and if your car you why has one touchscreen and they use that touchscreen for climate controls [TS]

  but then you have the car play thing out you have to get out of car play just to change the temperature [TS]

  and you wish that it had a knob. It's not going to fix that either. [TS]

  So I really I really wish there was like sort of a single minded holistic approach in the race [TS]

  and that's why I think Dave likes this tussle so much because that's a case where the car maker does do the whole thing [TS]

  and they do concentrate heavily on touch screen type interfaces [TS]

  and it does come together in a manner better than most other cars [TS]

  but I mean the Tesla For example I think it should have more physical controls [TS]

  and it's definitely a version one point software and it's kind of snappy as like an actual i Pad is [TS]

  and it's like we see the technology for all this is there is just not like the correct arrangement of the people with [TS]

  the technology and the people who make the cars to to make it happen. Yeah. [TS]

  I'm very very intrigued by this I think it has a lot of potential. [TS]

  One of the things I've noticed is that to me the look of Iowa seven made a lot of sense [TS]

  and on screen I don't know why but I'm not that's not to say I don't that that I dislike it on either vices [TS]

  but I actually really really really liked the look on the Ferrari a Mercedes [TS]

  and vile involve a video demo the bar is low I think I think there was you know I I mean I guess I should show you the [TS]

  screen shots of my Honda view I look like if I go web page one hundred ninety five [TS]

  and I could make my favorite part of the Ferrari video was when the Apple raffle was demo ing it. [TS]

  She's showing that you can switch back to the Ferrari interface easily well if you want you can to happy years switch [TS]

  to the to the F.-F. [TS]

  Interface but will just go right back for a second and it just looked awful and this is a brand new Ferrari. [TS]

  The interviews with her renders [TS]

  and then switch right back to this nice clean Apple world because like that's not Ferrari's expertise is not in user [TS]

  interface design for the touch screen cars like that is not where their strengths lie [TS]

  and it's never going to be unlike in this respect I'm afraid like oh finally someone could take over some of the stuff [TS]

  but but still it's like you have. [TS]

  Not everyone's going to have a phone or plug it in so you have to have an interface there [TS]

  and just the standard is so low for these for these interfaces that you know they're I don't know what the solution is [TS]

  like. Again Tesla at the very least they're taking it seriously and saying we're going to have a different U.I. [TS]

  We're going to take ownership of it we're not just going to have some sort of generic touchscreen [TS]

  and we're going to have some third party write the software [TS]

  and put like our logo above it into different background color and call it a day. [TS]

  I know other companies do much more than that [TS]

  but like it's a difficult problem it's difficult on many levels to figure out what the best balance is between physical [TS]

  controls and touch controls and all the modern features people expect an integration of their devices so I think. [TS]

  Our play is a step forward but it's a small one like Apple T.V. [TS]

  Was a step forward too but it's a small one I think it's worth asking what problem this solves for everyone involved. [TS]

  Now you know to me a lot of the audio functions of it are solved perfectly well by Bluetooth [TS]

  and Bluetooth is extremely convenient because when done right [TS]

  and it's usually pretty well in cars surprisingly because there's not much to it. [TS]

  When done right I can I have you know overcast on my phone and if I'm in my house and half of a washing dishes [TS]

  or whatever I'll play a pod cast and then if I go to my car to go to the store I get in the cart in the car on [TS]

  and just are driving and a few seconds later my podcast are playing to the car speakers when I turn the car off. [TS]

  It pauses and sees my position and then when I go back inside I can resume it and play inside [TS]

  and all that works without having to plug the phone into the car without having to wait but I mean to launch anything. [TS]

  It just I get in the car the phone happens to your pockets always in my pocket and it just works. [TS]

  You have a way to pause the audio yet through the car's built in wheel controls [TS]

  and stuff because you know because the car using the built in protocol the car can can signal basic things like play [TS]

  pause you know track forward packs of like that can you change playlists [TS]

  and stuff this is like the simplest possible scenario that you're describing where you're in the middle of an audio [TS]

  and you know you like what you're playing. [TS]

  But like I don't agree that is that's a step up from what you would have heard of them before [TS]

  but like even a slightly more complicated snare like I'm going on a trip and I want to hear this song [TS]

  or this playlist that's a place where car play would have your back because it's like I know how difficult it is to you [TS]

  know using my stupid onscreen control even if I have my i Pod plugged in to find the playlist I want to select it to [TS]

  you know enable [TS]

  or disable shuffle to you know to do all that stuff with a touch screen with a touch screen with them [TS]

  but my stupid control is terrible and serious probably also kind of terrible but it's better. [TS]

  I would rather shout something out to my car. [TS]

  They don't want to play the new nothing the Bluetooth doesn't solve that at all because look it doesn't give you like [TS]

  here that here's a visual interface to like all your playlists are all your songs now go find the one you want right [TS]

  it's merely like a wireless version of an audio cable [TS]

  and so card play I think is a step up from that even if it lacks the seamlessness of you to be able to get into your [TS]

  car. [TS]

  Oh yeah I mean for podcasts I think the difference is a lot smaller because you tend to listen to one pod cast for much [TS]

  longer and then you listen to one song [TS]

  and you tend not to have to do serious navigation to find the Podcast you want to hear at this moment like Generally [TS]

  you put it on whatever's on you keep listening to the hour and fifty minutes long. So it's not a bigger problem. [TS]

  Like as music I agree you're right and obviously a lot more people listen to music than park asked [TS]

  but you know this just just pointing out that Bluetooth Bluetooth convenience is pretty severe competition for this at [TS]

  the start for audio functions and Bluetooth also everywhere already. [TS]

  Look at this in so many cars now it's you know so many new models include it. [TS]

  It's been around forever so there's so many cars already on the road with Bluetooth that it really does solve all these [TS]

  problems in a pretty limited but very effective way. So where where car play I think will really shine is navigation. [TS]

  In theory but I think in practice this is still i OS maps I.O.'s navigation and trying trying to replace a car system [TS]

  or either trying to you know sit on top of a car system that's being ignored or be present in cars that have screens [TS]

  but don't have now which is not a ton of them. But you know certainly there's still there's still some. [TS]

  And is that really what you want I mean usually a car's built in nav is not that bad [TS]

  and it's also all loaded all offline all you know built in ready to go it has the high precision G.P.S. [TS]

  Transmitter on the air receiver on the car and like in my opinion the G.P.S. That's built in. [TS]

  Two cars that have never been is usually way better and more consistent. No one the one in Iowa City. [TS]

  Well I mean maybe in an M five that's true [TS]

  but I think the big advantage it has is that as your car ages assume you keep it for a while your phone will get better [TS]

  and the navigation presumably will get better you know what I mean whereas whatever navigation your car came with [TS]

  that's an avocation is going to have that in my experience is what happens when I get into someone's car [TS]

  and it's like an eighty year old car. [TS]

  They're not a geisha is a gross looking at they bought a modern car better [TS]

  but I think the key is that to do navigation Well you need to integrate with the rest of the car like Marco said from [TS]

  the antennas that you're getting the signal from instead of having a tiny little device inside an arm rest plugged into [TS]

  a cable underneath a big steel roof all way up to like you know eventually we're going to they are going to realize [TS]

  that you're going to want to show stuff on the hood you're going to want the navigation is no maybe areas we want to [TS]

  know the speed from the speedometer and angle of the wheels instead of having to get that info from G.P.S. [TS]

  and Then reckoning like there's so much more you can do when you did navigation built into the car than [TS]

  when all you get is to be. [TS]

  I'm a phone I don't have a Geisha [TS]

  and I can project my image on to the screen like it's it's such a weak solution to come to a common problem that cars [TS]

  have been solving for years on their own. [TS]

  Well the other problem is Markos navigation in your brain U M five is excellent [TS]

  and the navigation in my twenty's eleventh Street series is pretty darn good. [TS]

  I'm actually very glad I got I got a car with navigation because I was in the plan [TS]

  when I went looking for for use three series. [TS]

  However even though I think the build date on the car was December twenty ten in the three years since the car's been [TS]

  built the local area has changed quite significantly and so if for no other reason even the you why left alone. [TS]

  There's an extreme advantage in having your phone do your navigation because the maps get updated [TS]

  and I'm not talking like the you why I'm talking the actual data gets updated and I'm working right now. [TS]

  How much it would cost to get my maps upgraded from B.M.W. [TS]

  and I need to pay for a forty dollar in ninety cents US speak he said that just gets me to keep on top of that I need [TS]

  to pay two hundred four dollars and eleven cents for the actual maps themselves. [TS]

  So I'm in two hundred fifty bucks to get an update for the nav on my car [TS]

  and one of these days I'll probably pony up for it because after three [TS]

  or four years it gets to the point that you're you're really in need of it because a lot of the streets I go to I [TS]

  shouldn't say a lot. [TS]

  Some of the places I go to they just don't clean don't exist on the navigation in my car so that's a bummer. [TS]

  Additionally traffic lately as mentioned by David T. [TS]

  Moves in the chat traffic lately is way better coming off the phone than it does my car in my car does accept [TS]

  or does receive traffic and it's good but it's certainly not foolproof. [TS]

  And the with the advantages that ways brings among other things with the kind of crowd sourcing traffic reports. [TS]

  It's almost always going to be better navigation on the phone so yeah right now your M five is wonderful [TS]

  but I'd be curious to see if you said that in three or four years. [TS]

  Another example of your car aging and not doing well with the tech [TS]

  but like I think the root problem is right now it's unacceptable for someone's home to not have an internet connection [TS]

  but it's a couple of a Karsten out emanation there is [TS]

  and I was like I don't want to pay for two wireless build out on my car to have a separate connection like that's a [TS]

  symptom of the market the shape of the market now like what we would want is as time goes on as cars get better ones [TS]

  like inevitably cars need to have network connections in cars need to auto update their maps [TS]

  and they need to not charge like your car is old so it doesn't do this [TS]

  and modern cars still don't have internet connections but they can get one through your phone maybe [TS]

  or actually we're doing the reverse here and saying no car you still can't have an internet connection [TS]

  but my thing that I have that has an internet connection it's allowed to spray it image up on your screen you're [TS]

  allowed to send it in but standard. [TS]

  Like you know not too far in the future if we ever get the stupid carrier stuff sorted out [TS]

  or like we have a better wireless that like cars need to have internet connections just like homes need to like what [TS]

  mine does. Even my twenty ten built car does and if I subscribe to like the Super Bowl or B.M.W. What is a B.M.W. [TS]

  Assist which kind like On Star I can do basic Google location searches from the car [TS]

  and certainly up until Google freakin ruined Google maps recently I was able to send addresses from Google to my car [TS]

  which sounds silly but oh my god it's the most wonderful thing in the world. [TS]

  And so my car has some modicum of Internet connectivity [TS]

  but that doesn't really terrible software right in the end you to be honest you're on a kind of different point which [TS]

  is it should be able to do a lot more with that Internet connection than receive extraordinarily small packets of [TS]

  search results and addresses. [TS]

  Yeah they were we see all the pieces we know what i Pads like we know what i Phones like [TS]

  and we know all the things that could be useful to cars [TS]

  and it's like we have this tech it's not that expensive compared to the cost of a car. [TS]

  We know people know how to write software to do this but they're not at the car companies [TS]

  and like it was going to get these guys together [TS]

  and that's kind of like you know we're hoping in the Apple announcement [TS]

  or something like maybe they will get together maybe Apple by Tesla and be able to do the whole experience [TS]

  but they're they're still so far apart in the things we know today are technically possible to do they're out [TS]

  financially feasible or just not organizationally feasible like we can on vision. [TS]

  You know like why is the car the separate realm where we can have the nice things that we know exist. [TS]

  Why do we have to choose between navigation and integrated with our car. [TS]

  But it's crappy in other ways and that is you know fast and responsive and can respond to voice commands [TS]

  and get its maps updated all the time but is not integrated with the current anyway. [TS]

  You know I don't see where it goes for sure. Now I'm going to be very jealous when my car can't do it. [TS]

  Cops have to give me one three the only answer I wonder to like like how how much of Car Play will will fail to be [TS]

  useful to people who aren't totally bought into the Apple ecosystem like there's a whole lot of features in Mavericks [TS]

  and Iowa seven where like if you don't use a far as your browser for instance then that doesn't work right for you [TS]

  or if you don't use by clouds reminders or calendar or whatever [TS]

  and so you know how much of that do you think will apply to Car Play where obviously it's very much based on SIRI [TS]

  and actually in you know one topic is third party apps integration with it [TS]

  and Apple as far as I know they have not clarified whether anybody will be able to make an app that uses this [TS]

  or whether this is partners only like Siri and it sure looks like its partners only to start at least and [TS]

  and so you know to what degree will this be limited if you choose not to have a not to use Apple services for [TS]

  everything or Apple's apps for everything. [TS]

  Yeah Google Maps and I was having for example like what if I don't want to use up all that maps on whom. Right exactly. [TS]

  Yeah I don't I think we're going to have to limit it probably you know if you realize like safety legal reasons like if [TS]

  you're allowed to you know we always wrote about like you can even enter the destination of where you're going to your [TS]

  car is not moving in the car manufacturer but that into their navigation right. [TS]

  What speed is it safe to play flappy birds on your airplane if you're you know it's only one tap it we can send that [TS]

  over to our playwright that's really the input that'll work with the i Drive not just hit the knob the flap of the [TS]

  cover they have the case he was having the Dave in the Twitters was I recall. [TS]

  It's growing like touch growing like it is now. [TS]

  That's not quite as natural as you might think it would be [TS]

  when you're in a moving car versus a button the resulting in a battle like the resist a touch screen of the Ferrari as [TS]

  it has that punters this terrible right. [TS]

  But like it even without that constraint you know what's the easiest way to find something in a long list [TS]

  when you're in a moving car. [TS]

  Because like scrolling through a list is great when you're looking at your phone your hand is looking with some [TS]

  but your eyes are on the phone the whole time when you're [TS]

  when your eyes are supposed to be on the road you know if you flick [TS]

  and look back at the road look back down you're past that like maybe that's not of us [TS]

  and are very That's why I keep going back to Syria is what I keep telling Syria because that's what you want you want [TS]

  to. [TS]

  Eyes on the road but still get done what you want to get done and that's one of the strength also of knobs [TS]

  and dials as if they have little things you can feel them clicking you know how far you're going [TS]

  or you can feel so much in the ON [TS]

  or OFF position you don't have to take your eyes off the road it's a different environment [TS]

  and the things that work great and i Pads and i Phones U.I. [TS]

  Wise don't necessarily work the same way on the phone that's why I think carpet looks so different [TS]

  and it is so like sort of Spartan unlimited [TS]

  and they keep them going serious like they don't want to say oh great now it's exactly like mounting my pad to my [TS]

  dashboard mounting your i Pad your dashboard is dangerous in terms of like what you can do to distract yourself [TS]

  and car play I think is trying very hard not to be that dangerous so that's why I would imagine it's not going to be [TS]

  open season [TS]

  or if it is open season the things that third party apps are allowed to do through the interface is going to be so [TS]

  limited that it's not going to allow you know before he burned up there are you know play a movie [TS]

  or something in the front of your car right now actually. So the new stuff that's in the Iowa seven point one S.T.K. [TS]

  Looks like it would be a way to be [TS]

  and whatever I can say it looks like it would be a way to have arbitrary apps be usable from the screen [TS]

  but only present like a structured menu kind of like your i Pod that would be you [TS]

  or your entire interface could be the structured menu and you have a few limited things you can do. [TS]

  But you're not you know you know just given an arbitrary view that you can do it if you want with it like put a game [TS]

  and I like those menu items [TS]

  or bespeak a bowl like you'd probably put in some it is say if they say this that's what they mean like if they had [TS]

  boys and you know they wanted to be simple interface you can do some crazy thing [TS]

  and also ideally you would have touchscreen and all that you could like activate the app [TS]

  and say you know like they were showing you know play a song name whatever or if you open a menu of options. [TS]

  Pick an option which is send text [TS]

  and then you know Katie that would send a text it was you know like that type of integration and that's what I mean. [TS]

  It's kind of boring if you look at it you know like oh it's like it looks kind of like a car you IOW it's a bunch of [TS]

  items [TS]

  and the thing is sometimes it's not even it's not even a response of the expected to be because of whatever the crappy [TS]

  host operating system of the host hardware is so it's still a far cry from the performance that experience of having an [TS]

  i Pad in the dashboard. But you probably wouldn't want to have that anyway in terms of the U.I. The U.I. [TS]

  Has to be simpler [TS]

  and different because it's not the same as knowing I've been using it by the way I should mention that what was news to [TS]

  me anyway I believe news to everyone was that car play will support things like the drive controller which I consider [TS]

  to be a tremendous win despite Dave maney and flow for touch screens and cars [TS]

  and I'm still of the opinion that having a physical control is a much much much better way of doing things [TS]

  and so having having some amount of integration with things like the I drive controller I think is very important [TS]

  and a very welcome bit of news that I didn't know before. [TS]

  Oh yeah definitely and that's me too like when I [TS]

  when I saw that the you would expect knowing Apple that easily do things you would expect they would say aren't [TS]

  everything that we that we support has to be a touch screen period like enraged dictate that [TS]

  and then you know to manufacture and sign up and no one else will. [TS]

  And maybe that's why we haven't heard of it I was in the car for almost a year. Maybe they were. [TS]

  One plan was to dictate that and they could get enough supported them [TS]

  and slowly backsliding finery that at that screen there and find you can do the job [TS]

  or put the home button on the screens as you guys can find a spot for it on your dashboard is not going to change your [TS]

  dashboard for are you like [TS]

  and they were probably all saying We also want to be able to do the same with Android so nothing you do can preclude [TS]

  someone playing in their Android phone to do whatever the hell they're going to do for that. Right exactly. [TS]

  I think the new stuff and seven point one It doesn't say it's work or play [TS]

  and it doesn't say much of anything actually there's not a lot of documentation for but the new stuff [TS]

  and seven point one sure looks like this is what it's for [TS]

  and it's a way to create a hierarchy of menus for things that could be music or could be anything. [TS]

  So that would mean that both overcast and fast text would in theory work over car play [TS]

  and whether it's integrated with Siri is a different story [TS]

  and they could be might not be might be limited in who knows. But that's that's a different story entirely. [TS]

  We are very interested interested to see whether they do something you know he's connected apps where you have to be a [TS]

  blast partner in order to get access and be interesting. [TS]

  Rights can long titles menace macro's good save that action now you get to suffer and you get to hold back [TS]

  and wait till next weekend. [TS]

  Well the funny thing is there's not that much to say about it really it don't know don't ask don't go there. [TS]

  This is going to be a short topic. Don't go there. [TS]

  The biggest thing I noticed so far is it is noticeably faster not by like an earth shaking amount as what I had before [TS]

  was already fast but it is noticeably faster the I was definitely faster. [TS]

  What is most noticeable by far besides how cool it looks is how much quieter it is I mean that's like it's shocking how [TS]

  quiet this thing is and I have always been of the opinion the mac pros were always pretty high. [TS]

  Why you know compared to what they were doing to any other tower P.C. That you would have. [TS]

  They were always pretty quiet [TS]

  but now that I have this in the same room with an across through most of his old MacPro it's a big big difference in [TS]

  the noise and John if you want of getting one of these things which you probably won't and probably shouldn't [TS]

  but if you do of getting one of these things that I think is what you will notice first just so it's such a big [TS]

  difference. [TS]

  OK one eventual simming the song cycle is one of the cheese grater inevitably elegantly I want yes I'm looking for that [TS]

  in the size like a thing of there on your desk like Next your water glass practically being the size of your house like [TS]

  this is going to be set I mean I'll have more leg room. [TS]

  Presumably they'll be a few were cables draped from the top to the bottom of my desk. You know I mean ice. [TS]

  Yeah it is really cool. [TS]

  So titles [TS]

  and I'm actually I'm not touching the case because I've seen take a lot of people that are like you know the covered in [TS]

  fingerprints. [TS]

  So I pick it up by Philip goes through from the top [TS]

  and I set it all up I didn't touch any part of the case at the very part [TS]

  and I wiped that off with a microfiber cloth and this new that you hear that's a stain. [TS]

  But you would if it was playing you know that there are the never mind titles titles. [TS]

  I know this is one of my suggestions [TS]

  but I kind of like it because who suggested it Dave who thinks we just invite underscored here [TS]

  and Smith I didn't mean another think about it it's funny and I think that's a title that will be difficult to guess. [TS]

  Well I guess if you know the software itself that you can guess [TS]

  but I find that once I didn't get it how close it is hell is other people I was held other people's code. [TS]

  I guess that's why I was amazed [TS]

  when someone buys a software product like Mars that people buy like other apps that companies don't want anymore I'm [TS]

  like that's like my worst nightmare getting someone else's pile of code done by under me [TS]

  and you know we're going to see it before and it will be like that. You know here you go. [TS]

  You paid a lot of money for this hope you can make a good go of it. [TS]

  Hope it's not too crazy if it came with the other person and they were my flavor of the rest of their lives [TS]

  and I'm like What do you mean by this is what I'm doing way what is the purpose of this class. [TS]

  Described to me you know [TS]

  and if they didn't know I couldn't beat them around them so you never thought about what the Bourbons glass was that it [TS]

  just does stuff. [TS]