The Accidental Tech Podcast

58: Always On Vacation In California

 

  When I go on a completely unrelated rant that'll be less expletive filled and you can still hear you jerks. [TS]

  I thought it was a rhetorical question so I'll tell you right now that I'm using headphones instead of canal phones ear [TS]

  buds whatever you call him for this this week showing you can hear this you can hear that all day [TS]

  and I said it in the Michael Moore's who like an ammeter going to alter your microphone technique if your head hitting [TS]

  it is a problem as I turn to one side because so for example like the mike is kind of coming in from my left hand side [TS]

  and I have an extra monitor on the right hand side and so I'm turning and smashing into things. They're all messed up. [TS]

  I'm a disaster tonight in front of a big screen in front of you two screens. [TS]

  There's one screen in front of me once going to my right. You heathens that use only one screen I don't get it. [TS]

  So really quickly I was at Aaron and I went to Target today [TS]

  and there was a woman who was getting into her car in front of us her car if I'm not mistaken was a Taurus wagon [TS]

  and it had eyelashes on the on the headlights. Is this is a number of problems already. [TS]

  Indeed so she goes [TS]

  and she unloads her car in such a way that she is blocking the spot that we were going to try to pull through into what [TS]

  you know what she has a right to take her time into or think that's fine no big deal. [TS]

  She loads a car she wheels the shopping cart to the back of her car because she had either done a poulterer backed in [TS]

  and then ditches it goes to get in a car. This is one of my biggest pet peeves in the entire world. [TS]

  It is almost as bad as not using terms like so she goes to get back in her car [TS]

  and because it's a Taurus wagon it's about thousand feet long. So as she's going to get back in. [TS]

  Or car I jumped out of Erin's car. I say don't worry I'll get that for you. Did you give her a thumbs down. [TS]

  No I should have. Car should have. [TS]

  I didn't think about it I am so upset anyway so she says all you know synthetically happy thanks. [TS]

  So as she's pulling out she gives me this obviously condescending wave of the hand [TS]

  and then as she's turning about to become out of I and earshot flicks me off. [TS]

  I mean admittedly it was mildly noxious of me to say don't worry I'll get that for you [TS]

  but here it is this woman is so close to the front of the store that I think it took us less than thirty seconds to [TS]

  walk there [TS]

  and she did just her car the middle of the parking lot where it was going to hit somebody else's car it was only a [TS]

  matter time is this acceptable behavior. I just invite that old that I'm getting upset over something. [TS]

  Well I know I'm getting upset over some I shouldn't [TS]

  but is that acceptable behaviour do you guys see this where you live. [TS]

  Yes those who have a behavior [TS]

  and I'll tell you why I'm going to kill you so you better redeem yourself quickly the reason why is because she has to [TS]

  drive a Ford Taurus wagon every veteran. [TS]

  If I had to drive a Ford Taurus wagon every single day I would probably be that much of an asshole as well. [TS]

  And I bet you would do. You know you do make an excellent point as much as I want to be embittered about it so. [TS]

  So why did she put the off Katie. [TS]

  Because I commented as I called her out on being unable to make [TS]

  or fuck you off because she could I called her out on the fact that she was being ridiculous and noxious. [TS]

  So apparently that's enough to her to warrant the middle finger. Well that's that's their standard defensiveness. [TS]

  If so if you are being unethical and somebody tells you that you are being unethical [TS]

  and you know you're being an ethical standard to Penzance response is to tell them no you're the Apple even though you [TS]

  know you were wrong. Exactly but it may. [TS]

  We are now gets talking about this in so I was like you know I I can understand the sentiment just like you said Marco [TS]

  but in the end of the day when you're just making it worse you're just further confirming that you're an adult. [TS]

  Well you were both in that situation just she was the green arrival and that's probably fair. [TS]

  I mean this doesn't make me a jerk to say don't worry I'll get that for you. [TS]

  I didn't say don't worry I'll get that for you you lazy punk. [TS]

  I mean you did a snide response to someone's worst move so you are and your hands are not clean there. [TS]

  So you know be careful he took your white car that can be all of us get along is he going to just move the cards [TS]

  without making a comment. You should just silently move the car directly in front of her car. [TS]

  Now seriously all the time a grocery stores I see people just you know put two wheels on to the nearest grassy knoll [TS]

  and then ditch the car. [TS]

  Oh you're you're lucky you're shopping centers even have the grassy knoll in New York we don't have space for those [TS]

  and so they just park the shopping carts like in the middle of flat pavement where the [TS]

  when the can very easily blow them directly into other cars there are self organizing collective gravity [TS]

  and wind causes in the bundled together into the end of a correcting you [TS]

  and get only that the giant floating circle of garbage in the ocean is like that in parking lots of shopping. [TS]

  I just it's so ridiculous like why can't you just walk it ten paces [TS]

  or what is so important in your life that you can't walk this thing ten paces away. [TS]

  Well so I've never been a smoker and so maybe I'm missing something here [TS]

  but why is necessary for smokers to flick their cigarette on the ground around the car windows. [TS]

  You know it's the same kind of thing it's like just a slight reckless disregard for the rest of society in a way that [TS]

  makes you a bull in a subtle enough way that you might forget how much of an ethical you're being [TS]

  or not realize that in the first place. So nothing really happened this week. [TS]

  We don't go into topics for if you don't jump to the events of the week before. So you knew that. [TS]

  All right so let's let's follow up on some sexism talk the first item of all that actually not about those two three [TS]

  shows back [TS]

  or maybe if you will I shall remember anyway was not as active them someone named Michael wrote in to tell us I don't [TS]

  know why we all didn't mention as we were discussing it on the topic of sapphire. [TS]

  He said hey the tops of watches are made of sapphire and that's true. [TS]

  I mean and think about that because the reassuring thing about eye watches or whatever [TS]

  and not to say that Apple is making a watch or that they watch will be covered in fire [TS]

  but it's worth considering that the sapphire plant they're building probably not for our entire i Phone screen so far [TS]

  although maybe you know people are saying they've been making advances in sapphire that makes it more comfortable to [TS]

  grill us but maybe not just for a cell phone camera covers [TS]

  or Touch ID sensors may be for a tiny little screen on a tiny little wearable thing because that would also work for [TS]

  something that sapphire so I thought that was worth bringing up. [TS]

  Yeah there was a really good discussion on on the talk show this week with younger [TS]

  and Craig Hockenberry about the potential of Apple making an i Watch or other wearable devices [TS]

  and I highly recommend everyone to listen to that [TS]

  and I think that this is this is very good feedback that yes it is a very good point that watches do used to do [TS]

  sapphire [TS]

  and even if Apple is not making the watch if they're making some kind of small wearable anything with a display it [TS]

  would make sense that might be you know the cover material so all these possibilities make a lot of sense [TS]

  and are all I think probably more plausible than the idea of them doing the whole i Phone screen sapphire just because [TS]

  you know not only as we discussed and only just that is that just a lot of sapphire they would need [TS]

  but also you know they're using We know you know they're using it for Touch ID sensors and they need a lot of those [TS]

  and you know if they use it these nowhere will be a lot of that. [TS]

  It makes sense in those things where the i Phone screen like there's not that I don't know do you think do you think [TS]

  it's really necessary for the i Phone screen to switch to Sapphire. [TS]

  Well the things I was writing about was not that they would make the whole screen glass out of sapphire [TS]

  but that you'd make a laminate where they have a super thin layer of sapphire over it for a scratch resistance [TS]

  but then underneath that essentially gorilla glass type of stuff so you try to get the benefits of all them really hard [TS]

  like you know on a knife edge or you got a really hard towards the sort of the blade edge [TS]

  and then sort of more flexible in the middle and this is all just speculative [TS]

  and people investigating manufactories go down the road I can imagine some kind of sandwich like that give you the best [TS]

  of all the materials like a flexible Center with a very very hard surface that makes sense for for a phone [TS]

  or something where you don't want the screen to be scratched at the hardest materially possible. [TS]

  Just on the very you know the scratch surface [TS]

  but are we really scratching the screens on our phones because the damage I see is shattering because of impact not [TS]

  scratching. [TS]

  Well that I see a lot of scratched i Phones I may think of people who take their i Phones without a case [TS]

  and put it in like their purse but there Keith people do that and they get scratched up. [TS]

  Do I Maybe I've just never seen them but I see two lines in tons of i Phones and Android phones [TS]

  and every kind of film with a shattered or perhaps slightly scattered so that [TS]

  when you drop it I mean like that that's something obviously they would like that not to happen too [TS]

  but there's a certain point you drop it on the concrete the wrong way sorry. [TS]

  I just I don't know if if the scratch prevention is what we really need on the screen what we really need on the screen [TS]

  in my opinion is shatter prevention [TS]

  and I'm not sure how to how you would get there they get out of plastic could there be gross. [TS]

  Well you get there by having these tacky giant bouncy cases that a lot of people I can use for that exact reason there [TS]

  are so many of the outer boxes I mean they protect the foam God They're enormous. [TS]

  Well [TS]

  but that actually helps you know if you want to protect this tiny little brick of glass in the trunk in the middle of [TS]

  something. [TS]

  The bigger you can make that something in the squish [TS]

  or you can make it the more likely it is that you will protect him. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  but so how do I put an apple wearable stuff way down like three topics down a topic section who knows who will get to [TS]

  it today but I put it there because of inspired by Craig's article [TS]

  and the recent talk show so people say if you don't get to have an actual Let's move it up who cares about Facebook [TS]

  and I feel as though that would have been a perfect time to to lop it John. [TS]

  But that's OK now doesn't lot that he sticks around and waits. He will wait for his turn. [TS]

  There are some actual sectors in follow up. Well OK it is that time now. [TS]

  Well first before I get to that a few items I put in in the fog section here how would you guys characterize the [TS]

  feedback that we got on that topic. [TS]

  I would say almost universally praise in the sense that people were very glad we spoke of it in in many cases people [TS]

  were very pleased with the way you spoke of it especially and a lot myself into that category. [TS]

  So I thought we did OK I thought I did OK I thought you did extremely well. Yeah I completely agree. [TS]

  I think everyone loves John and made a lot of sense based on last week's episode and I [TS]

  and the feedback was overall a very positive that people who are very happy that we talked about the problems of sexism [TS]

  in tech and even [TS]

  when we didn't talk even that much about it I mean it's it's a massive topic that you couldn't even fit in one entire [TS]

  show let alone the last quarter of one of our shows but. [TS]

  But I'm glad we talked I was very scared as it as I said during the show last week I was very scared to talk about it [TS]

  because it's so it's so hard to talk about sexism without offending somebody on the side that you're fighting for. [TS]

  Yeah yeah and that's why I pump the brakes real hard in the beginning and I'm really really glad [TS]

  and thankful that it was mostly John basically. Tough No These we're going to talk about it and I'm glad that we did. [TS]

  But man I was so scared of the meeting Marco said Did you tweet mark [TS]

  or something that like you had been afraid to touch on this topic [TS]

  or pleasantly surprised that the backlash was not that bad [TS]

  and that basically you had been you'd been too afraid of this topic for too long. [TS]

  And if you had known that it wasn't the you know the minefield you thought it was going to be that you wouldn't have [TS]

  been didn't. Yeah exactly right. I mean you know I I try to fight for social causes that I care about. [TS]

  And this is one of those [TS]

  but it is so it just it's so I've been really scared off by the public discourse around sexism because it is it just [TS]

  seems like everyone's being attacked. [TS]

  Even people who are trying to make progress in eliminating [TS]

  or reducing sexism then they get attacked for search for something they didn't include or accidentally a minute [TS]

  or didn't say the right way. [TS]

  It's really really just it seems like it's so cutthroat the discussion out there that I see so often at least in print [TS]

  and on Twitter and stuff. It's so it's so like no one no one's given any leeway no one to give any slack. [TS]

  Everyone assumes the worst and everyone else in the discussion. [TS]

  And [TS]

  and that's what frankly that's that's why I try to stay out of it because I'm so afraid of something blowing up in my [TS]

  face when I was just trying to help. [TS]

  But I did it in not quite the right way or I forgot about some you know some condition or something. [TS]

  I'm not thinking about or some side effect of the word. [TS]

  I mean I'm thinking about like it's so hard to talk about it in a way that won't get you attacked as well from your [TS]

  side like to like you know it's one thing if you say sexism is a problem [TS]

  and you got a bunch of men saying no it's not like that that's one thing I don't care about that kind of attack [TS]

  obviously. [TS]

  But but like if I'm if I'm trying to argue for the progress of this issue and for less sexism [TS]

  and then I get attacked by and by sexism advocates that I didn't do it correctly like that's that. [TS]

  Urges me from participating in the discussion at all. And it's very intimidating to even to even enter it. [TS]

  You know I think the feedback was overwhelmingly positive. [TS]

  There were a few like negative one turn [TS]

  and there was the typical people like you like Marco just mentioned who you know thought it wasn't a problem [TS]

  or were just blatantly and unapologetically sexist. [TS]

  So you know what I think we only got one actually that was like comically out like comically off base like it was there [TS]

  was one there was there was the ridiculous of those other ones that you know have borderline I got a lot of private [TS]

  e-mail like you know not a lot to like four [TS]

  or five private emails most of which were entirely negative so I get I mean it's not really it's kind of like the the [TS]

  the jobs policy thing where he was the reason he explained why he was in blog as much as little good you know tons [TS]

  and tons of positive feedback but all do is sit there and think about the bad ones you know [TS]

  and I just get my general nature to the inability to take a compliment [TS]

  or to dwell on the positive things so anyway the the negative things were like people who took this opportunity to sort [TS]

  of like a preemptive backlash took this opportunity to say I know people are going to listen to the show [TS]

  and say nice things to you so let me preemptively tell you about all the times in the past where you have said [TS]

  or done things that are sex is a racist or whatever in your part guess or writing [TS]

  and so I got a laundry list of all sorts of things that I've done wrong from various people most of which by the way [TS]

  were right which is why it's been you know it bothers me as much as it does this is like yeah you know I remember that [TS]

  was terrible [TS]

  and in fact in in the particular show there were cases you know I mean I brought up on the Katie saying in a way [TS]

  but I did think that when I heard it myself I listened to it [TS]

  and then two days later I get the person emailing me about it [TS]

  and it's like yeah that's that's part of what's difficult about this topic is like you said we're all we all do these [TS]

  things to some degree or another. [TS]

  We just you know been steeped in this we are product of our society [TS]

  and so despite the best intentions you will find yourself doing things wrong and people will call you want [TS]

  and sometimes people call you on a nasty way. [TS]

  Them being nasty doesn't mean you didn't do something wrong just like Casey called. [TS]

  That woman it was a time that the other call that woman on a not putting away her shopping cart in a nasty way she [TS]

  still did something wrong and so like you just heard her defensiveness is like well I may have done something wrong [TS]

  but you were a jerk about it therefore I didn't do anything wrong so [TS]

  when I get these mean emails telling me about things that are wrong your instinct is to want to reply and say [TS]

  but I didn't mean it that way in BOA But you know but they're right they're jerks [TS]

  but they're right you know so there was that that part of the experience like I expected it it came. [TS]

  I'm fine with it it's just you know that's that's part of the whole deal you just have to learn how to properly deal [TS]

  with that kind of feedback even if it's delivered in sensitive way. [TS]

  Look at it for the content and don't end condoning cage with the jerkiness I guess. [TS]

  So how do you feel about it after the fact. [TS]

  Overall Well you know we could I mean let me get through this to him he threw back items I think I have a better [TS]

  overall view of the thing. [TS]

  The first one is barely about sexism to start out that way so already this is from Mike this just an excerpt from the [TS]

  email I just want to light hearted they point out that earlier in the show you're talking about sending people [TS]

  unknowledgeable of tech and Apple to interview Johnny Ive [TS]

  and then proceed to thoroughly discussed gender dynamics in technology. Forty minutes. [TS]

  As someone who has an academic background that a lot of personal interest in styling gender issues [TS]

  and studying gender issues I had to roll my eyes ever so slightly. [TS]

  Many tech folks seem to think that seem to be so quick to put down the layman who speaks about technology issues for [TS]

  lack of research or knowledge but they often feel completely informed about gender and race [TS]

  and class issues that in their opinion is automatically well researched that their opinion is automatically Well [TS]

  research valid and worth espousing. [TS]

  So the super of this one is us you know slamming whatever of Time magazine or the Times [TS]

  or whatever sending some reporter to talk to Johnny Ive didn't seem to know what is talking about and then saying [TS]

  and then we talked about a topic that this listener knew a lot about you know gender or whatever [TS]

  and then he had a Rolls eyes like you know all these tech guys they complain [TS]

  when someone is not a techno talks about tech but then they do. [TS]

  Feel like they can talk about gender issues and it and I was talking about this too. [TS]

  Two things that I object to in this feedback The first is the idea that we are objecting to someone who doesn't know a [TS]

  lot about technology. [TS]

  Talking to someone in the technology sector Skype the Walter Isaacson thing where people would say well it's better for [TS]

  someone who's not kind of steeped in technology to do this because it is supposed to bring the message to the masses we [TS]

  want someone who isn't technically want someone who can you know relate to these people at the level of normal people [TS]

  they don't just want to nerd going and that and the idea of sending someone who's not a knowledge or Apple [TS]

  or tech stocks but the same thing where you don't have to be knowledgeable about this topic to report on [TS]

  or to write a book about it but the job of a reporter [TS]

  or an author is to during the course of doing this interview preparing for the interview preparing for the book [TS]

  whatever you learn about the talent because the only way you can bring something to the masses is to first learn it [TS]

  yourself you know learn about to resort to learn through talking to the person [TS]

  and then bring the understanding that you gained everyone else that's your job your job is not to just transcribe words [TS]

  or just say the person that comes to mind [TS]

  and then transcribe the answers your job is to learn something about a topic summarize what you've learned into [TS]

  and you know get firsthand information from wherever it is you're talking to based on what you've learned then bring [TS]

  that back to them so I don't mind of someone who doesn't know anything about a tech interview someone [TS]

  but they better be a good interviewer [TS]

  and a good interviewer learns about the topic at hand before they do the interview. [TS]

  That's it I mean you could say well maybe didn't have time maybe was last minute or whatever [TS]

  and use all sorts of excuses you can make and that would be a shame as the case but as I said the last show. [TS]

  Hard to believe that we can find somebody like oh we don't have time for the research. [TS]

  Somebody already knows something about Apple can we find somebody anybody who's been following up at all. [TS]

  Maybe send them to interview Johnny. [TS]

  So that's my first objection the second is this other sentiment that like people who are not just for this topic [TS]

  but also out of people who are expert in the field. [TS]

  Actually it's specifically with sexism if you're like a gender studies major or something. [TS]

  Over all those people who wrote in to us or to me to tell me that we should be talking about the topic of Iran [TS]

  or we're talking about that I think it is poison because everyone thinks that it's just like the same thing the market [TS]

  was getting out of the fear like you don't talk about the top of your friends are going to say something wrong. [TS]

  It's too high of a bar to require everyone who wants to discuss this topic to be like a Women's Studies major [TS]

  or a history major or anything like that so you have a bar we all have to talk about this not to talk about it [TS]

  and get things wrong and fumble and screw things up and occasionally yell at each other. [TS]

  You can't be like well I shouldn't say anything about this is on the next where there's applies to anything any time we [TS]

  talk about something where some lesser knows more about it than we do whether it be like speakers or cars [TS]

  or gender studies someone needs to come in to say I was on your show [TS]

  and you were talking about something that I knew more about than you [TS]

  and let me tell you why you should never talk about that again. [TS]

  That's that's all well [TS]

  and good round to the point where you tell us we're not allowed to talk about that ever again because that I mean for [TS]

  for an important issue like sexism that's terrible and for less important issues I think is just silly. [TS]

  So sorry Mike I disagree with most of your feedback here I'm sorry major roll your eyes. [TS]

  Yeah I mostly agree with that I mean it's it's important you know when there's [TS]

  when there's a social issue like this where it's it's like it's an important like human rights and social issue. [TS]

  I think not talking about it is generally more harmful then then you know talking about it [TS]

  and kind of stumbling through and making some mistakes. [TS]

  Not that not the same and you know what that's not to say that I that I have the guts to actually do it [TS]

  but I think generally speaking I agree like we need like one of those common feedback themes that we got was thank you [TS]

  for talking about this like we need more people with audiences to talk about this which is I guess the next feedback [TS]

  which I want to get to that. You can read that when marketing is right up your alley right. [TS]

  This in is from a jack band [TS]

  and it says Marco said several times that he didn't know how to better serve this issue I think the biggest thing he [TS]

  can do is use his audience and look for voices to amplify whether it's simply retreating tech opinions by women [TS]

  or are linking to articles that directly deal with sexism in tech. [TS]

  Neal I guess I'm missing that my favorite person and he'll dash and he'll try to similar experiment over the past year. [TS]

  On the surface it sounds patronizing patronizing patronizing to deliberately seek this out [TS]

  but clearly there are issues [TS]

  and conversations lurking under the surface that most men in tech aren't aware of the you know the thing he's talking [TS]

  about than any other that you think I follow until this day is your best friend may talk about. [TS]

  Yeah no I actually knew when there's a convenient link in the show notes that you didn't do [TS]

  or didn't look at because you don't do your homework. [TS]

  But but what what I had apparently done was exclusively re tweeted only when I'm in for what was it a years out right. [TS]

  Yeah they go the whole year. [TS]

  OK so he had only retreated one in for a whole year now I don't follow and you know I never have. [TS]

  But apparently according to him it didn't really change his own personal workflow isn't the right word [TS]

  but his own Twitter experience very much but in whether [TS]

  or not you think that that particular course of action is a good idea. [TS]

  It was I did read this medium post which I believe he had written and will put in show notes [TS]

  but it came from what I thought was a good place which is you know let me try to make my own follow a list of my own [TS]

  what I'm putting into the world a little a little less single minded and [TS]

  and I understand rich coming from I don't know that forcing yourself to only retreat women for a year is necessarily [TS]

  the right answer but I think you came from a good place. [TS]

  It's easy to make a political statement on Twitter by changing your by favoring something or. [TS]

  Changing your avatar or retrieving something those are all easy things. And the value in this. [TS]

  I don't mean to cut O'Neal here I think the value is commensurate with the effort in this case you know if you want to [TS]

  really make a meaningful difference. [TS]

  Choosing who you read tweet on Twitter is not a way to do it it's a way to do a small difference possibly a very small [TS]

  difference but I think making a meaningful difference of course putting yourself out there a little more than that [TS]

  and doing something a little a little more risky and bold than that [TS]

  and so I don't I don't really put a lot of weight on things like you know putting a star on your avatar changing it to [TS]

  be a certain color for the certain political cause [TS]

  or stuff like that like you know on my petitions favoring a certain tweet a million times like that just doesn't those [TS]

  things don't really make much of a difference. [TS]

  But well what any of that I think was interesting because it ties into what the feedback is of as we were we weren't [TS]

  sure we could do in the fact that we have an audience like talking about and nobody has something we can do [TS]

  and what he did I'm assuming as a lot of followers look I'm selling is way more than than I do [TS]

  and better they have more than you or maybe anyone here. [TS]

  He said he had I think about a half million because I guess early on in Twitter I was a recommended user list. [TS]

  You know yeah he was he was on the recommended user list [TS]

  and so people would sign into Twitter for the very first time ever [TS]

  and they would see this recommended users so I'm sure I'll follow that guy in by his own admission he said he got a [TS]

  zillion followers and he was like you know many of the half million followers he had from that. [TS]

  Yes So that like what are you doing basically using his Twitter fame as a force multiplier [TS]

  and the like what can one person the world the few of us who happen to have you know for four [TS]

  or five digit numbers of followers [TS]

  or have a podcast a lot of people listen to one little thing that we do could make a big difference [TS]

  and so he was being very strict like only recruiting women or whatever over an entire year. [TS]

  But I found myself doing it even with my small number of followers on Twitter. It's the conflict that. [TS]

  That market was mentioning wary of see some tweet from first of all the following certain people who tend to either [TS]

  tweet or read tweet things related to these topics and I care about and then I'll see a tweet [TS]

  and I'll want to retreat [TS]

  and you'll have that moment of hesitation where you're like I know if I read this because it's you know political [TS]

  or has to do with sexism or whatever I know I have followers who disagree with me [TS]

  and are going to like yell at me about it or like you're going to get negative feedback about doing this [TS]

  and the more values you have the more important it is for you to say well is this my Twitter account or isn't it. [TS]

  If this is what I believe then do I believe it or do I not believe it and so free [TS]

  and little partisans like retreat something [TS]

  or they agree with their you know giving voices to people who may not have many followers not a big deal [TS]

  but the more followers you have the more you're amplifying them by by either linking to them in a tweet of your own [TS]

  or reach meaning something that they said and that's I still find myself having that hesitation [TS]

  and then having to sort of force myself to say no go through this is exactly what you're supposed to be done now I [TS]

  don't know what kind of a difference it's making [TS]

  but like in general there's not that much individuals can do unless we're in very parable for all positions. [TS]

  But through the magic of social media the multiplying effect especially if you have a large number of followers [TS]

  or whatever I think it is important to consciously say maybe normally follow things really apply I wouldn't read this [TS]

  or mention this book because I know it's an important issue [TS]

  and because I know this person like I may be doubling the reach of this person's tweet by retreating [TS]

  and then yes I will reach we determine how much annoys my followers I think it's more effective. [TS]

  Rather than say what you're doing and making a big deal out of what you're doing [TS]

  and tell everybody what you're doing to just do it like to just like try to try to try to recruit a lot of women you [TS]

  don't have to say you're only we could do a new woman for a year [TS]

  and you don't have to announce that to everyone like oh that you know that. [TS]

  That's obviously going to give Mick like you got the article in mind before he begins that you know I went to like [TS]

  that's that's fine [TS]

  but like I'm not I'm not saying you have to do what he did because I think exclusively retorting women like you know [TS]

  that's maybe missing the point of the entire thing [TS]

  but in general if we all see tweets in our timeline that we agree with [TS]

  but know that if we were to you know engage with a retreat [TS]

  or say something about we know we're going to be basically asking for an argument people are going to say negative [TS]

  things back and that can this way to us from doing that [TS]

  and like Martha said last time you know are hesitant to talk about this topic like Over know people might say mean [TS]

  things is nothing compared to the hazards people have to deal with the actual issues. [TS]

  So like we're so wimpy we don't even we don't even want to like it like bring the smallest amount of criticism [TS]

  or fire down on us for even engaging the topic [TS]

  and that's like that's the that's the weapon of the you know the bad guys in the scenario is that if it becomes so [TS]

  toxic no want to touch it they win by default. [TS]

  You know where I can because they're going to touch it as much as they want [TS]

  and on their side like people I mean the amount of like of rampant sexism is is crazy [TS]

  and you know the people there are the rampant sexists are not going to stop talking about it because they're afraid of [TS]

  the feel of the feedback they're going to just keep doing it. [TS]

  That's another reason not to engage with those people because every time someone's you know I do some of that [TS]

  and then I get negative feedback. If I need something to remind myself not to engage with those people. [TS]

  I mean this may sound terrible but I look at their follower count [TS]

  and I say if I was thinking of this person a star arguing with them there is the potential that more people would see [TS]

  this argument than whatever see this person to begin with like right now is evil is confined to me but if I if I [TS]

  and gauging go back and forth or like Hillary tweet him [TS]

  or anything like that that actually increases the exposure of his toxic ideas. [TS]

  Right and so it's better to just not engage and leave them confined to their four followers and [TS]

  and their hate filled time I'd like to look at a timeline of tweets and just one hate filled statement after another [TS]

  and these people must not have very nice lives but. [TS]

  If you are engaging with them that's like a lot a jackpot for them [TS]

  and that's something that I think I'm still learning in general [TS]

  and not specifically to sex as a means you know how do I choose one it's worth engaging. [TS]

  Like for example in a parking lot at Target in one it's not something I will always struggle with [TS]

  and it's something I think we all struggle with. [TS]

  We're not done with the sexism fallout [TS]

  but we've been going to while we talk about some cool we can it is our wonderful friends once again. [TS]

  They're back our friends at Warby Parker Warby Parker believes the prescription eyeglasses simply should not cost three [TS]

  hundred dollars and up. [TS]

  They should be affordable even even affordable enough people to accessorize and have multiple pairs if they want to. [TS]

  So where we park is really a new way of making and selling eyewear. [TS]

  They bypassed all this additional channels they sell higher quality better looking prescription eyewear online at a [TS]

  fraction the price of you know brick and mortar places in your optician [TS]

  and everything else starting at just ninety five dollars to go to war B. Parker A R B Y P A R K E R dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  At Warby Parker dot com slash A.T.P. To see and learn more. [TS]

  They have these great designs are vintage inspired with a contemporary twist. [TS]

  Every pair is custom fit they have anti-reflective anti-glare polycarbonate prescription lenses [TS]

  and every pair comes with a hard case [TS]

  and cleaning which is a really nice hard case by the way so you don't need to buy any like overpriced accessories [TS]

  and top your glasses. Now buying glasses online you would think this would be risky. [TS]

  Like how do you try them on how do you see how they look. [TS]

  They know this and they've built a pretty incredible tool So first of all you can go [TS]

  and they have a thing where you can like use your webcam to take a picture of you [TS]

  and it will overlay the glasses on your head so you can see how they will look [TS]

  and they also have web cam tools to do things that help you measure in case you case your prescription doesn't have the [TS]

  right distance number on it or if you want to. Double check it. [TS]

  Whatever else you can you can see that you can measure it right it right there right on line [TS]

  and then the cool thing the best thing about word Parker I think. [TS]

  Besides there are surprises and everything else about them. [TS]

  The best thing because of all the other stuff is this home try on program. [TS]

  So they have this great thing you can pick out of the five pairs of glasses and let's say you only take two [TS]

  or three because you can't decide those those pill boxes five so anyway. [TS]

  Great company so you get these glasses to try out our home for free because you haven't paid anything yet. [TS]

  You get them you can try them on and then they send it to you for free. You send it back. [TS]

  It's all prepaid shipping you don't pay anything and then you can make a choice [TS]

  and you can choose to buy none of them if you really want to [TS]

  but I bet you won't because they're really great quality you'll see for yourself when you go home try on [TS]

  and then you just pick whichever one you want whichever ones you want you can get more than one if you'd like they're [TS]

  not stopping you and you get those glasses delivered to you pretty quickly actually. [TS]

  So they when they make the prescription lenses they usually get started on them right away [TS]

  and they're usually in your hands within ten business days or usually even faster than that. [TS]

  That's kind of like a rough and ballpark [TS]

  but usually even faster than that so prescription glasses starting at just ninety five dollars including the lenses. [TS]

  Obviously you know I don't know why they even sell that about lenses like long breaks [TS]

  but ninety five dollars with the lenses they also have a titanium collection is even better. [TS]

  Higher quality stuff in certain places but really they're all pretty great. [TS]

  Teva questions are just one hundred forty five dollars including lenses that includes premium Japanese had him [TS]

  and Frank Sinatra rocking screws all their glasses at all price points include [TS]

  and a reflective anti-glare coatings cleaning cloth everything like that really great so check one of the cool things [TS]

  about as I go a little longer [TS]

  but one of the many cool things they do is they have a program where for every pair of glasses they sell they [TS]

  distribute a second pair to someone in need somewhere in the world. [TS]

  There's there's a few charities they work with to do this. Where. [TS]

  You know there's a perception I wear is very expensive for many parts of the you know lesser developed world [TS]

  and it's pretty important to be able to see for things like learning [TS]

  and getting through everyday life it's really important. [TS]

  And so they have this great program where every pair they sell they give one of the pairs somebody in need so check [TS]

  them out. Warby Parker dot com slash A.T.P. Thank her for sponsoring our show once again. [TS]

  Speaking of using your social following to amplify the effect [TS]

  and speaking of the war we've are giving a free glasses to someone who needs them. [TS]

  Might want Tara who generally is a jerk on Twitter in a funny way also occasionally does a thing where he tries to [TS]

  raise money for a family that needs money for something and I go hey this you know could be a pair of glasses [TS]

  or something like that [TS]

  or you know this family is about to get evicted let let's all raise two thousand dollars Peter from getting evicted [TS]

  and he will use his Twitter follower which is not that big like it's you know it's bigger than mine [TS]

  but not much better and so used that to get a bunch of people to raise money is not a lot of money [TS]

  but a small money for charity and he'll do that over the course of an hour and a half on like Saturday. [TS]

  That's something that you couldn't do before the Internet and Twitter [TS]

  and Twitter seems like just a silly thing I got fifty six thousand followers. [TS]

  So I may be feeling a hundred thousand [TS]

  and what can I do with that you can do surprisingly you know because it's important to you you know spend spend a [TS]

  little time tweeting a few things. [TS]

  Get a bunch of people who follow you to raise the money for a cause that you care about it's not a big thing [TS]

  but it's not a little thing either [TS]

  and it's something that wouldn't happen if it's like oh if I got to go door to door knocking on people's doors asking [TS]

  for money [TS]

  or whatever Twitter like brings together sort of like minded people who might be inclined to do these types of things [TS]

  and if it's all that tronic where you just read a U.R.L. [TS]

  Every goes the or else it could have a button that Pay Pal ten bucks in there. [TS]

  Everyone feels good about it and someone gets helped or be part of this [TS]

  and then you know it's just an extra bonus for like why am I to buy [TS]

  or rebar glasses because they do this extra thing too. [TS]

  And you'll feel good about getting your glasses when you do that. [TS]

  Now so what else we have on the sexism topper I put a bunch of other things here [TS]

  but I think people are mostly I want to I think I want to touch on for now is we didn't talk about the last show [TS]

  but things the things that help with empathy and I was thinking of the surprise didn't come up [TS]

  and maybe didn't come up because I'm the only one of the hip a lot of times [TS]

  when you talk about this topic someone will bring up either casually [TS]

  or as a weapon more likely the idea that you don't understand this topic because you're a man [TS]

  and you know you know only women understand it or are used to not understand a topic but then I had a daughter [TS]

  and now you know if you don't have a door you can understand with this like oh just wait until you have a daughter [TS]

  and you'll understand the daughter one of the one that gets me because I can't control my gender [TS]

  but people could conceivably not have a daughter at one point and then have a daughter at another point in life [TS]

  and I never like calling people out to say your ability to empathize with this is stopped by the fact that you don't [TS]

  have a daughter. I agree that having a daughter definitely helps can help because they give you. [TS]

  It forces you to take a perspective that previously you couldn't [TS]

  but intellectually I don't like the idea that it's impossible for someone to understand the issue until they have it [TS]

  or I happen to have a daughter and the like. [TS]

  And it has helped me identify with a few more but I don't think from the notes here as it is neither necessary [TS]

  nor sufficient to have a daughter to understand this you know because plenty of people have daughters [TS]

  and still don't see the forest for the trees. [TS]

  Some people are helped by having a daughter [TS]

  and some people like what I'm saying is that you shouldn't have to be pre-qualified by something to say that you can. [TS]

  Your ability to empathize with this issue is not dependent on you having sisters or daughters or being a woman [TS]

  or I think everyone else can do it. Those things may help. But I just don't like the exclusion like I just bothers me. [TS]

  Even if like even if in general it may be true that white people don't get until they have a daughter I don't like [TS]

  people people trying to exclude people from the conversation as they were. [TS]

  Well you can understand this because you're a man don't even have a daughter or a sister or whatever. [TS]

  Yeah the other ones I think we probably don't have time for today but there's more [TS]

  and more bits now I don't delete them often and we can touch on them on another show. [TS]

  Really quickly I do want to also add that I think part of the problem here I mean obviously I'm American [TS]

  and I take the very U.S. Centric view because simply that's where I am and what I know most about. [TS]

  But certainly it seems like in American culture we had of course and all of us [TS]

  but the majority the dominant culture in America is to hold on very tightly to the past [TS]

  and the way we've always done things and the way we've always done things is is like the Bible. [TS]

  It's it's always correct. [TS]

  It's how it always was and how it always will be and we are the best damn it [TS]

  and we are never going to listen anybody else or anything else suggest otherwise because we are the best U.S.A. U.S.A. [TS]

  Brother Ira And the problem with that kind of viewpoint one of one of the many problems with that kind of viewpoint is [TS]

  that when [TS]

  when some part of what you think is your culture that you've always had you must always have is challenged like [TS]

  something that you do or think or say that is sexist or has some other social problem. [TS]

  Your instinct if you're in this mindset is to hold on tightly and and tighten your grip even more [TS]

  and get even angrier and more defensive and reclusive even around that [TS]

  and that really hinders a lot of social progress [TS]

  and you know it's hard to convince people that their that their history and their culture [TS]

  and the way they think is wrong and bad. [TS]

  That's really really hard to do and that's probably true everywhere for everybody [TS]

  but that's one of the problems of moving in. [TS]

  It's like this for one of the challenges is you know as you said last episode things that we've that things that we've [TS]

  always said words we've always used assumptions we've always made. [TS]

  These things have problems they are sexist they are discriminatory they are insulting they you know they have problems [TS]

  but if we if we hold onto tightly to this is the way we've always done things this is who we are this is who I am [TS]

  and use that as a big skews. [TS]

  It's very hard to make meaningful progress [TS]

  and this is a portable in America anyway across many many many different subjects little gun control in [TS]

  and merit the legalization of marijuana and and I'm not trying to get political I'm not saying you know one way [TS]

  or the other where I stand on these issues however two yeses for me. [TS]

  You're braver man than I but [TS]

  but it's hard to have intelligent conversation about it for exactly the reasons that you said because those of us who [TS]

  cling to the way things are today tend to just tighten their grip just like you said even more. [TS]

  And it prevents an intelligent conversation and it quickly becomes an emotional conversation. [TS]

  And that's a very quick with not been done. You may have a well than any kind of change like that. [TS]

  And usually the way for people to die and the worst thing about it is like always way for people that I will be fine [TS]

  but like they teach their children these progressive ideas too and like they propagate [TS]

  and it's like so difficult to sort of stem that propagation you know like one of my the most effective means that I've [TS]

  seen during my lifetime of fostering change in society has been the sort of ambient exposure to ideas not sharing them [TS]

  in people's faces [TS]

  but just kind of like a number not really bombarding But just like you're in contact with it all the time to sort of [TS]

  you know the M.T.V. [TS]

  Generation constantly seeing different kinds of people you know just like exposure to two to just different. [TS]

  All different races different sexuality. [TS]

  Not as like it's a message or an after school special but just like that is there. [TS]

  And like you just expose them like willing grace and sit com stuff like that I'm out of you know some of those [TS]

  or more how I you know [TS]

  but just just generally that exposure it makes it more difficult for the adult generation that is never going to learn [TS]

  any better to pass on their regressive ideas to their children because their children are just sort of like soaking in [TS]

  a society that accepts the certain things as just like well this is the way it is [TS]

  and that's the course where the parents hated me you know they want their kids to watch M.T.V. [TS]

  and All you know all is a bit like that kind of that kind of thing it seems to me even more effective than [TS]

  proselytizing [TS]

  or trying to teach kids the right way because you know no one wants you to teach as it just like you just have to you [TS]

  just have to be exposed us to be that's again us talking about it like this being out in the open even if it's in the [TS]

  form of a bunch of people yelling at each other [TS]

  and blog comments like even that is just so much better than just not talking about it because kids will grow up just [TS]

  exposed to this like oh this is a thing or I've seen people yelling about that [TS]

  and even if kids are like on on one side of the debate for most of their life they'll know that this debate exists [TS]

  they'll know that there is another side and it will be in their mind maybe they'll come around eventually right. [TS]

  But just being exposed to it. [TS]

  It doesn't seem alien or taboo [TS]

  or ridiculous it's like oh yeah that's been going on my whole life that's definitely a thing you know. [TS]

  Right so anything else on the follow up category forever follow forever fall. [TS]

  We're only an hour in something we should start [TS]

  but I skip a lot of stuff I skipped even after they all kidding aside it is really really really good conversation. [TS]

  And like I said before as much as I would as I pump the brakes in the beginning I'm glad we're having it [TS]

  and I'm glad that we got. [TS]

  Well most of us how much goods I can't leave the pad feedback I'm glad we got feedback saying hey you know. [TS]

  Yes You know we say the right thing but at least you talk about it. [TS]

  Oh that like I said it wasn't bad feedback makes me feel bad which is that right right Reverend you know like you know [TS]

  it's no fun for people to point out all the places you've done bad things in the past [TS]

  but like any time you talk about something someone's going to want to say oh yeah but you know whatever. [TS]

  It's one of those Latin logical fallacies his name I can never remember and always have to look up in Wikipedia [TS]

  but let no to to call Q. or Something where it's like. [TS]

  Because you did something that's counter to what you're saying what you're saying is wrong. [TS]

  So this is a valid fear is that if you have not lived your life in a hundred percent it says that with the position you [TS]

  are espousing therefore the position you're exposing is wrong [TS]

  and I have not lived my life one hundred percent consistency but my position is not wrong because of that [TS]

  and so people want to write [TS]

  and tell you that what you've done in the past is not lived up to the ideals you presented [TS]

  and then you feel bad about it and we should feel about it but I do feel bad about it [TS]

  and a couple of them are also jerks that someone got in there [TS]

  and they're in the chat room you want to pronounce that I tried. [TS]

  Well the great thing is being with Latin there is no authoritative Princie Asia nobody actually knows how a letter was [TS]

  pronounced. [TS]

  They print please send your corrections to Mark [TS]

  and so this week Facebook bought Oculus which I didn't see coming out to say I follow this stuff closely [TS]

  but I didn't I didn't see this coming ahead. [TS]

  Did you know the company existed before the last show where we discussed the our stuff. Yes big jerk. [TS]

  Speaking of tourists as I knew existed. [TS]

  So yes so Oculus Oculus Rift is the devices are correct and I'm going to get my terminology wrong here [TS]

  but they're making of the R headset and it's like a Virtual Boy but it actually works from what I gather [TS]

  and they were bought by Facebook in a lot of people aren't happy about that. [TS]

  So John did you didn't back this Kickstarter right. I did not. [TS]

  OK So there's a lot of different things in flight here a lot of different viewpoints. [TS]

  It's in a lot of different conversations happening. [TS]

  One of them is hey I backed this thing on Kickstarter and I did that so they could stay independent [TS]

  and now they're not independent so this sucks and O.P.'s I want my back or money back. [TS]

  Does that make any sense to you to it all because it is not to me like well it makes sense in the in the regard that I [TS]

  can understand the feeling but the feeling is without merit. [TS]

  I think part of it stems from the same kind of thing where like if a paid app [TS]

  or service is bought then the people who who paid for it before the acquisition are mad like I paid for this so you'd [TS]

  stay independent or I pay I paid for this so you wouldn't be bought to be adored and shut down [TS]

  and all that other stuff. [TS]

  And so it's more that I think the difference is the Kickstarter the the message of history a sense of the need to maybe [TS]

  not explicitly and maybe to try to disclaim it [TS]

  but you know the message that it sends a feeling it gives people is a feeling of co-ownership it's the you're being a [TS]

  part of starting this thing even though it confers no actual ownership to you. [TS]

  In fact it's really a terrible deal for all those reasons in most cases however you know you support these things [TS]

  because you want them to exist [TS]

  and then you feel you feel some token of ownership even even if it's not direct financial hardship you feel like you [TS]

  know you helped the band get started you know that kind of thing like you. [TS]

  You feel like one one of the backers as they call it your back or even though you're more of a donor. [TS]

  But it's so you know I totally get the feeling [TS]

  and I think it is you know it's carefully here I think the feeling is not academically correct of something you should [TS]

  think but completely understandable why caesura backers would think [TS]

  and feel that you know that's a that's a good way of phrasing it because I would've felt the same way for flash [TS]

  but then I would have realized wow. [TS]

  That's not really fair because that's not wasn't a deal that wasn't the deal I made with Oculus. [TS]

  But at Pixar is kind of weird in that if you pull back far enough and are sufficiently cynical as many people [TS]

  and where are it starts to look like a risk way for the real V.C.S. [TS]

  To sort out a bunch of stuff with a new investing being done being distributed over huge group of nerds writers like we [TS]

  don't want to we don't want to the angel investment where we just give enough to people of my of the ground we want to [TS]

  wait to see where the winners are. [TS]

  But we don't want to [TS]

  and even England US is like well like I mean that's part of the music stars like it's not worth anyone's time to invest [TS]

  in some dinky little thing and on going to care about that sometimes there are big things [TS]

  and it's like well we could go to real investors [TS]

  or we could just get that same amount of money from thousands of regular people [TS]

  but we don't have to give them anything. [TS]

  An angel investor would want some of the some part of the company in exchange for their investment [TS]

  but since each individual person gave five ten bucks we don't have to divide the company up [TS]

  and give each person point or one percent of the company. [TS]

  They get nothing for this so close is there anyway [TS]

  and that's kind of where people feel burned in that they first of all they do feel like they're investing which they're [TS]

  not they're not investing the giving people money in exchange for usually like a product [TS]

  or some kind of you know something and nothing about their back or rewards [TS]

  or whatever like because you want the thing to be in the world [TS]

  but it's not an investment because you don't get any ownership over the thing over the profits over the company over [TS]

  anything even if you did it would be a tiny little sliver but but you can zero you get nothing [TS]

  and like hey we got all this money this is this case it was like two point five million [TS]

  or something for the Kickstarter. [TS]

  That's a reasonable amount of money for an angel investment [TS]

  but it was distributed over such a large number of people [TS]

  and all of them got ZERO equity so like from the companies are saying you know hey this is great. [TS]

  Like when we get money [TS]

  and in exchange we don't have to do anything except make the thing because people just want this to be in the world [TS]

  and that's the beauty and the curse of Kickstarter and what's in these people's heads when they're giving the money. [TS]

  Like what. [TS]

  I was given the money so you could be an independent like Kickstarter said give us money so we can remain independent. [TS]

  I mean like there's no promise about what's going to happen to the company in the future [TS]

  but in their head they're like I'm giving you money so so you won't have to get bought up by some big company [TS]

  or whatever but that's not [TS]

  when you're buying you're not buying equity you're not you're not buying the right to determine the future course of [TS]

  the company. [TS]

  You are just giving them money because you want to see this thing in the world [TS]

  or nothing did go into the world in the rift to get version one two came out [TS]

  and I'm assuming people got what they were promised for their Kickstarter thing but time moves on [TS]

  and potentially Facebook comes and buys them and I guess these people could kind of feel burned. [TS]

  But like I hope of the sour people in Pixar they don't like the idea of someone who's like I've got a year for a board [TS]

  game and it's going to cost seven hundred dollars to manufacture ten copies of this board game for me [TS]

  and ten people who are old who want to no one's ever going to invest in me. [TS]

  Everybody let's all chip pool our money together more get a copy of the school board game that I think sums up all the [TS]

  great raising a million dollars or something bigger [TS]

  but like in none of those scenarios should you expect anything past whatever it is you were promised as part of the [TS]

  Kickstarter I think it's important to as a Kickstarter backer of things to be extremely skeptical as to what you're [TS]

  going to get [TS]

  and you know the promises that they make that you know it's all it all has like you know an eighty percent chance of [TS]

  actually working out for you [TS]

  or whatever the number is like it's not a hundred percent like Certainly I've I've bought Kickstarter products that I [TS]

  have never received that fizzled out that you know they made promises they didn't keep. [TS]

  I bought products that did eventually arrive very very late or that arrived finally [TS]

  and were not as good as they said they were going to be [TS]

  or didn't work at all you know it's it's easy to get caught up in the mentality of helping these people out I'm really [TS]

  going to be one of the you know founding backers or whatever like it's a good feeling. Before you do it. [TS]

  And then eight months later [TS]

  when you haven't gotten the thing yet that you paid too much for like you wouldn't have paid two hundred dollars for it [TS]

  in a store if it was available right now. [TS]

  But you pay two hundred dollars to back it usually really wanted it two years ago. [TS]

  That's you know it's a different it's a different emotional scenario that you're in a different type of buying a [TS]

  different type of of messaging [TS]

  and rhetoric around it that I think I think distorts a lot of of these you know expectations and values [TS]

  and market effects. [TS]

  I think that the most sensible way to use Kickstarter is basically as a speculative pre-order with the assumption that [TS]

  you know of every ten things you print or you're not going to get one of them. [TS]

  I mean [TS]

  or you can do it as like I mean one of the things that I backed recently was some person who's trying to make a a website [TS]

  including high quality photos of game consoles. [TS]

  I'm not getting anything Corsi back or I'm not getting anything for that. [TS]

  Like it's not like there wasn't going to be public all the wrong doing by giving any money to this at all is trying to [TS]

  make it so that this Web site exists because they got he's going to use the money to buy you know vintage hardware to [TS]

  clean it up to have it professionally photographed and to put it up on a Web site [TS]

  and I'm basically paying for the entire Internet to have access to this thing paying for him to do it you know is it's [TS]

  not a job he's doing it is like a hobby project and he doesn't have a lot of money to spend on the hardware. [TS]

  So here's some money to put towards your project is I think it's a fun project and I want it to exist in the world. [TS]

  People are usually OK with that type of Kickstarter. [TS]

  It's where it gets fuzzy is where you think you're like where you feel like you're part of something. [TS]

  And like if you're part of something and it fizzled and you lose that doesn't ever ship people feel bad in one way [TS]

  but it's almost like people feel worse if you're you know if you back the starter and the people. [TS]

  And Oculus get fabulously rich. [TS]

  You had no money and the company is in the hands of another company that you didn't like. [TS]

  So it's like a triple whammy there. I bet these people feel worse than if the company went out of business. [TS]

  It doesn't make any sense but because of human nature the like you had you thought you had a lot of you take it well [TS]

  but you didn't I mean I don't think people really thought they had a lottery ticket just like the same people feel like [TS]

  you know. [TS]

  Well we'll get to the opinions of the people who back because there are [TS]

  and for that to specifically that's a quote here from not the guy who made Minecraft but it's human nature to to. [TS]

  Not so much to feel that you're left out financially but even betrayed somehow. Yeah I guess that's true. [TS]

  What what is it about Facebook that makes it sting so much. [TS]

  What I mean is Facebook is very clearly very similar to Google in that they're an advertising company without question. [TS]

  But nevertheless somebody tweeted earlier today I don't know who was you know they haven't yet ruined Instagram. [TS]

  All logic says they're going to [TS]

  but are we sure that we're going to see that they're going to ruin Arculus I mean what proof do we have that they're [TS]

  going to ruin it. [TS]

  I'm not entirely sure it matters that it was Facebook that bought it I think I mean there's only so many companies out [TS]

  there in the tech business that could spend two billion dollars on something [TS]

  and you know it's a relatively small number I think. [TS]

  So you know it would have been that much different obviously like you know Google bought it. [TS]

  I bet nerves at all the real happy about because nerds love their will for no reason. [TS]

  If Microsoft bought it that would be kind of interesting because they're a big tech company they need some new stuff to [TS]

  do and they have this getting business in the sides maybe that's kind of it. [TS]

  If Sony bought it Sony's developing a competing product if Sony bought it that would be I think met with Certainly some [TS]

  are. [TS]

  Just as well [TS]

  but it would be a little bit more clear oh well that's more likely that the thing will actually come out and exist [TS]

  and be for games but with Facebook buying it the big question is what the heck is face we're going to do with this. [TS]

  Why did the Facebook by this that's the big question and [TS]

  and I mean your guess is as good as mine I think there's certainly a contingent within Facebook. [TS]

  However paper got produced and shipped and Facebook Home whatever contingent made these products happen [TS]

  and made them come out and got them out whether that includes you know the top or not. [TS]

  These people believe the Facebook is about these really high quality pictures [TS]

  and following great designers who post great photos and have really interesting lives [TS]

  and are somehow always on vacation in California. [TS]

  But the Facebook that most people see is not that at all not even close. [TS]

  And so it's hard to look at Facebook's core product [TS]

  and see where this would fit in a way that wouldn't be just awful [TS]

  but maybe that's not their plan I mean Instagram as you said like Instagram has not been integrated into Facebook's [TS]

  core product. [TS]

  I'm sure they're using the data from sort of creepy things [TS]

  but the core product of Instagram has remained a separate thing. [TS]

  So maybe maybe Oculus will also remain a separate thing. [TS]

  Why they wanted it is still anyone's guess but you know I think part of the rage [TS]

  and anger about this is what they have to Facebook need this for. [TS]

  Right [TS]

  but why did we all kind of give Jeff Bezos Bezos whatever his name is a buy on the Washington Post like how does that [TS]

  make any more or less sense than this. Because who cares about the Washington Post not about your nerves. [TS]

  That was like one hundred fifty million though of the two billion and that's also fair. [TS]

  But to me it seems like a very parallel example if you look at Amazon's Corp [TS]

  and I do know Amazon didn't buy it by the Washington Post but nevertheless you know it's not. [TS]

  Once core business it's not what Jeff Bezos is used to doing and everyone kind of scratch their heads [TS]

  when he bought the post but it seems like nobody gave him up by me and I am sorry everyone gave him a bye [TS]

  and nobody seemed to care whereas when it's a nerdy tech thing all of a sudden the Internet is furious. [TS]

  Well I went travelling nerdy tech circles [TS]

  but like I put a link in the short term Asus name is actual name Marcus person not just the guy who created Minecraft. [TS]

  He was a backer for he gave like ten thousand dollars on them because he's got tons of money for minecraft for the [TS]

  original Oculus Rift and he was looking forward to developing for it and he was very angry that Facebook bought them [TS]

  and he lays out his reasons in a post a lot on the show notes the main reason I think that he's saying that a lot of [TS]

  people write good articles his main audience prior to his acquisition was game developers like it was you know I guess [TS]

  gamers to like you want to stick on the bases game developers were going to head that if you have no games to play on [TS]

  it and you can just take an existing game and slap it in they're expected to work. [TS]

  They wanted developers to make games. You know for V.R. [TS]

  and He was thinking of making a version of Minecraft custom tailored to V.R. [TS]

  and That was their audience and that audience is like [TS]

  and I think rightly so that their objection is crystallized by this blog post here that Facebook is not a game tech [TS]

  company there and it is not a game company and any time any thing having to do with gaming is only controlled [TS]

  or you know influence in a big way by a company that isn't a gaming company. [TS]

  Gamers distrust it like it's part of the reason that there is this you know distrust in the gaming industry of Apple [TS]

  despite the fact that tons of games sell really well and I wes Apple still seems not particularly [TS]

  and not enthusiastic about games like they don't they don't act like a gaming company like they'll say oh look it's [TS]

  great you know. [TS]

  Ames are selling very well no high like games their keynotes and stuff [TS]

  but they're not like a gaming company that's you know. [TS]

  Sony was a great point of Sony had bought them people feel a lot better. [TS]

  I mean it's the one you claim because you know what else there is going to want to blame. [TS]

  But Sony thus far as shown itself to be a very dedicated gaming company [TS]

  and that's what people want they don't want this tech to go off and be used for social things or video conferencing [TS]

  or like all the things that you could use it for the not right about here it's like it could be very good for those [TS]

  things it could be very good for lots of applications but he's a game developer he wanted to be all about games [TS]

  and he's afraid that non gaming company buying this is going to make it not be about games now this is just what his [TS]

  fears are not what I was going to happen [TS]

  but he did put another bit here thing fixed ours that he says I did not chip in ten grand to see if to see the first [TS]

  investment around to build value her Facebook acquisition [TS]

  and he's not bitter because you missed out on money because he's got tons of money already. [TS]

  It's just like it's just human nature to feel like I invested in this thing [TS]

  and it seems like my ten thousand dollars was just a you know it was like a little booster to Facebook [TS]

  and why the heck does Facebook need my ten thousand dollars like it's like here you go for you [TS]

  and you can scoop it up when it's ready and take it away from us take it away from us game developers [TS]

  and he say no we're not going to make Minecraft for intimacy that happens but obviously he's very angry. [TS]

  But from Facebook's perspective I totally see why they bought this why. [TS]

  Facebook has a business where they you know get everyone's information and they get them to be social [TS]

  and try to do things on the web and everything but I think they see you know not so much the writing on the wall [TS]

  but just like the evolution of their product where more people are doing more things in Mobile that's what they're [TS]

  trying to the paper stuff and they're trying it marks up thing is not a student of tech industry history [TS]

  and he's trying not to find himself in the same situation lots of other successful tech companies have been [TS]

  and he wants to find whatever the next big thing is and get there before everyone else does. [TS]

  When you've got a lot of money when you're in sort of the sad part of the growth curve [TS]

  and doing very well that is the time to try to find out whatever the next big thing is going to be. [TS]

  Maybe it's not this V R thing but what if it is it's a good idea. [TS]

  It's a safe bet to go find the best be our company buy them just in case that turns out to be the next big thing. [TS]

  Because I mean that kind of limits that a little bit of that [TS]

  and mobile like a regulator made some bad bets about doing H.T.M.L. Style mobile apps or whatever. [TS]

  I think he sees himself like as kind of a shame the name of the company's Facebook [TS]

  but it was the called like the coco [TS]

  or something like Where the fact that it's so identified with that one product I think he sees I see the future where I [TS]

  mean some people are going to eat like a Facebook snout is a glorified holding company. [TS]

  But like I think he sees a future where Facebook is no longer defined by the product that we currently know as Facebook [TS]

  but is merely like a big technology company right up there with Amazon Apple Google [TS]

  and all these other companies that like it. [TS]

  He's trying to make sure that he's not blindsided by something he's trying to you know sort of not be surprised by the [TS]

  future because he'll be inventing it and it's something you can afford to do when you have a lot of money [TS]

  and I think it's a reasonable bet because if this tech works and shrinks [TS]

  and becomes really good it like it has attractive it is attractive in ways to regular people who like oh no one's going [TS]

  to know a regular person going to put on the big giant had said even to play a game let alone regular people who are [TS]

  going to like you know talk to their grandma [TS]

  but you know accelerate this forward twenty five years who knows how big that headset will be who knows like how [TS]

  attractive it will be [TS]

  or people if he is in control of that technology evolution because he's got the best people in the world doing V.R. [TS]

  and He very well may have them now. That sets Facebook up to not be irrelevant. [TS]

  Once Facebook itself as we currently know starts to become irrelevant. [TS]

  Maybe Facebook really just wants to own anyway to to simulate interacting with people that actually have an interactive [TS]

  people. [TS]

  I have some thoughts on this but before I get to the do you want to tell us about something else that's really fun. [TS]

  Igloo is an internet you will actually like. [TS]

  Now most people think of internets as old stale terrible places that the corporate overlords make you go to [TS]

  when you just want to use Dropbox [TS]

  or Word Press some that actually works for me from you know the real world out here to help you get your work done. [TS]

  Big whoop brings the ease of use [TS]

  and familiarity from consumer software into your corporate environment by using familiar apps like shared calendars [TS]

  Twitter like microblogging file sharing and more. [TS]

  Every piece of content can be social with comments and like buttons [TS]

  and each team in your company can figure a work space within your igloo. [TS]

  That's all great for users but what if you're in charge of I.T. [TS]

  Iglu is very friendly they handle the security the hosting and the management for you. [TS]

  They are sock to its S O C two and it's probably a business thing. Do you guys know that business is a business thing. [TS]

  No idea. [TS]

  Well anyway their stock to type two compliant [TS]

  and they hosed insecurely in stock to type one in a price in Canada on their own servers there for two hundred fifty [TS]

  six but as I see now I actually know about this art back to English two hundred six [TS]

  but as I fell back as disaster recovery single tenant [TS]

  and shared environments integration with many of indication in sync systems including Sammul back to you. [TS]

  Semel services an elder and more. It will even work with hip pocket organizations John. [TS]

  But you don't have the you know to say hip hop just say HIPPA I feel like I spend more time on a double A. [TS]

  You can customize everything I'm tied directly with the ability to add C.S.S. [TS]

  and Javascript globally across one team or even on a single page. [TS]

  Very customizable you can see all this on the Web site it's actually built on their platform a glue Software dot com [TS]

  slash ready for this. Casey Oh it was software accomplished K.C. [TS]

  They made a funny landing page about why Share Point sucks and why it Lou is so much better. [TS]

  They've been a longtime friend of us me my site they show everything so check. I'm out. It was Software dot com slash. [TS]

  Casey thanks a lot today Lou for sponsoring our show once again that this is all about are the very the very top [TS]

  headline is challenge by sheer point and is someone who is been paid [TS]

  or was done in a while now who is paid for a long time to make a share point in trying out for companies [TS]

  and I did a build Actually it was either earlier this this year last year that I did think went well because it was a [TS]

  very very straight forward build [TS]

  but for my prior job at a lot of Share Point builds that worked arable in igloos certainly looks a lot better for [TS]

  almost every particular for almost every use you can think of. [TS]

  So thank you very much guys in for the special case the landing page I feel so honored you should write so I'd said [TS]

  right before the break that that I had a couple thoughts on this [TS]

  and really I think I have a thought about Kickstarter which maybe will get to maybe we won't but about Oculus [TS]

  and Facebook I almost feel like Facebook is the business of the the Web site in the ad sales are really just [TS]

  subsidizing doing all the crap Mark wants to do [TS]

  and I think you are kind of getting to that John in that Facebook is getting Mark Zuckerberg all this money [TS]

  and in the company all this money so that they can go out and just goof off and try different things [TS]

  and so if that really is the case that doesn't in [TS]

  and of itself lead me to believe that they're going to ruin it with ads and just generally make it suck. [TS]

  With that said remind me of this in five years who have or when Oculus is full of ads and terrible [TS]

  but I don't know that there is a straight line from today directly into ads [TS]

  or I don't think that it's guaranteed anyway. [TS]

  But then are you going to goofing off the there is a theme to what they're doing like they're trying to do like social [TS]

  I did interactions like like Marco sarcastically the interaction is [TS]

  when you're not actually there would be able to that's what. [TS]

  This book the product the Web site is more or less about [TS]

  and we are if it becomes a viable technology is well suited to that application to sort of you know telepresence [TS]

  or whatever you want to call it where you are not with somebody [TS]

  but make it seem as close to actually being with them as possible. [TS]

  And this could be the beginning of a technology that has applications so that there is a theme to what they're doing [TS]

  like Instagram what that those are all social things is how people communicate [TS]

  and share things with each other across great distances. [TS]

  So I think there definitely is a theme [TS]

  and I think it's not kind of like Google self driving cars kind of like pie in the sky nerd stuff you could draw a line [TS]

  around this all is a potentially transformative social technologies either current current transformative ones like [TS]

  what's up with the bazillion users and everything [TS]

  or Facebook which of course what people use you know share pictures of their kids and talk to each other [TS]

  and then future things as well so I think it makes sense and that was and I don't think they're just goofing off [TS]

  but yeah that's that's the question is like the doomsday scenario is about people that lots of graphic sort of think it [TS]

  was a Simpsons episode where they showed Facebook of the future where I was Farmville like Farmville V.R. [TS]

  Where a bunch of people they are headsets and hedge clippers in their hands and then there were the O.B.O. [TS]

  Comics showing Facebook we are from a couple years ago as well [TS]

  and I don't think that that's what they're going to do immediately there is like a way to go through your Facebook [TS]

  timeline in postings through a wall no I don't see that at all. [TS]

  And that's I think that wasn't their pitch like Here's the a couple quotes a graph from Palmer Luckey which I think is [TS]

  his real name on a pretty good name for some of these companies are bought for Devo you know if Here's what they think [TS]

  they're getting out of this deal with Facebook three items is on is a Reddit thing responding to people who read it I [TS]

  says one we can make custom hardware not rely on the scraps of the mobile phone industry. [TS]

  So basically they're they're Oculus Rift that they apparently made was like they would buy some screens they were [TS]

  intended for cell phones and they would put. [TS]

  In their case that they design and put some chips in there [TS]

  and try to wired together that they currently couldn't do it like Apple does actually make custom hardware because it's [TS]

  just so expensive they didn't have the money right. [TS]

  Two point five billion dollars is how much Apple probably spent figuring out how to make the another lightning kind of [TS]

  line here probably cost way more than two point five million to develop so anyway custom hardware is really expensive [TS]

  and now Facebook promising and we've got tons of money now you can do real hardware development. [TS]

  A number to be going for to hire everywhere need the best people to fit into our culture of excellence in all aspects [TS]

  any way they can afford to hire. [TS]

  Previously their big hire was John Carmack I assumed he was hired with the knowledge that they were going to sell the [TS]

  company [TS]

  and I'm assuming he got a big piece of that because that's how you get turned down comic to come work for your name [TS]

  company to tell them we may be a no name company but what we're doing is really cool [TS]

  and we're going to be bought by Facebook soon and it's going to be a lot of money [TS]

  and not the dot com I think the money I think he was attracted by the technology but I'm sure they've been hurt [TS]

  and I'm sure he got a piece of it. And number three is we can make huge investments in content more news soon. [TS]

  What that translates to me is they're trying to get big game developers on this like is Half Life three going to come [TS]

  to the Oculus Rift or whatever and they throw a bunch of money a valve who by the way is also working on V.A.R. [TS]

  Stuff some of this in partnership there [TS]

  but basically if you want to make this a viable gaming platform you've got to have the games how do you get the games [TS]

  you throw money at the game developers Marla. [TS]

  So I'm assuming that's that's what they mean [TS]

  and he also had the comments of like someone asking about you know what about songs like Microsoft [TS]

  and Apple he says what we want to sell someone like Microsoft or Apple so they can pair a company apart [TS]

  and use the pieces to build their own version of virtual reality one that fits whatever current strategy they have not [TS]

  a chance. [TS]

  So we're saying that if Apple had bought them all they'd be doing it so we just want your tech or your patents [TS]

  and forget about sprog you're making we're going to use it to do like the next whatever the hell we're going to do we [TS]

  don't we're not interested in your product which is why your tech [TS]

  or Microsoft like over is going to make this an X.-Box accessory and forget about what you've made [TS]

  and the impression of the company is that Facebook is going to let them essentially do. [TS]

  So what they were planning to do. Long lack of the same you know same schedule just now the timeline is accelerated. [TS]

  Now the price of the product is lower because they can you know they can subsidize it with Facebook's big bankroll they [TS]

  can do custom hardware like they think it's basically we're going to do exactly what we're going to be for [TS]

  but better [TS]

  and that may actually be the case for the first few years anyway until Facebook is where this goes like this the whole [TS]

  thing with acquisitions. [TS]

  People agree to acquisitions [TS]

  and they say all these things like oh don't worry nothing will change they told us everything's going to be the same [TS]

  and I think they really believe it and I think they really were told those things [TS]

  but like what no one wants to dwell on is like once you are no longer in control of your own company once once the buck [TS]

  no longer stops and the you eventually several years down the line is going to be a difference of opinion [TS]

  and you going to get overruled [TS]

  and you're going to every no no you know as intellectually that you're not in charge anymore that a certain point is [TS]

  going to come home. [TS]

  No I'm not in charge of quote unquote my company anymore someone else's and they want to do whatever [TS]

  and then you know that's when founders leave their shares have vested they're disgruntled they leave on so-so terms [TS]

  and like it maybe they're fine with that [TS]

  but like this is a honeymoon period where everybody thinks it's going to be a win win [TS]

  when they think we're going to exactly what we always want to do and we're going to do a better [TS]

  and maybe they really will. [TS]

  But some point down the line is going to be difference of opinion and that's probably where they're going to part ways. [TS]

  So I don't want to be pessimistic about it but I'm actually more optimistic [TS]

  and I think most nerds about the situation in that I think this does give I give us some breathing room to try to do a [TS]

  good job with this tech. [TS]

  I just wonder after a couple years of this if they have not headed off in the gaming space [TS]

  and that is often like the world of social How long will Facebook keep funneling money into this in the hopes that it [TS]

  will turn into something big for them. I don't know. Did did it take a long time for A.O.L. [TS]

  To ruin when am I when they bought because a bottle of milk soft as I write I mean that was a special case [TS]

  and because I'm just in. [TS]

  FRANKEL some I think yeah yeah right yeah he I mean a well just dumb to even buy him because he very much like could [TS]

  not possibly work for some big corporation like he does not have the personality for that at all with quite comical [TS]

  results. You gotta give the guy credit. [TS]

  He actually got an impressive amount of subterfuge done but you know I I don't that's that's a great example [TS]

  but I think and the Oculus is too young for Facebook to necessarily ruin it. [TS]

  I think the big question is what will they do with it. [TS]

  I don't know if there's another quote from Palmer Luckey from an article this is post it is an image with no [TS]

  attribution by Geoff Wood So I don't know as I am from but this is a quote [TS]

  when he was asked about something I guess I'm assuming this is you know many months ago perhaps more than a year ago [TS]

  that we want to do things our way. [TS]

  There are certainly people who are interested but we have a vision for our consumer product [TS]

  and we know that we're going to be able to pull it off. [TS]

  We don't want to be assimilated into someone who's going to have is working on their own product [TS]

  or their own vision for E R We want to be we want to be old his liver own vision of what V.A.R. [TS]

  Is and so the interviewer says so even a company like AMS I made a huge offer it wouldn't matter [TS]

  and I are quoting Palmer again. Nobody can say it doesn't matter. [TS]

  Everybody has a number [TS]

  but I don't think there's a reasonable number that would make me say you know I was going to change the world with V.R. [TS]

  and Try to change humanity forever but here's a number. [TS]

  Well apparently there was a number and then there was no I know that's kind of unfair and this is a quote. [TS]

  I don't I don't slam them for this because like I think everybody does have a number really like this is consistent [TS]

  with what he's currently saying now which is that he didn't want to do someone else's vision of the yard. [TS]

  He wanted to do his vision and Facebook came to him with a big number [TS]

  and said with this big number you get to do your bit. [TS]

  One of the our we don't want to take it and make it into some other product [TS]

  or to subsume your tech into some existing thing even likes you know absorbing your tech into like the next X. [TS]

  Box thing. They have their vision they want to pull off. [TS]

  Facebook came to them apparently and said you can do your vision. [TS]

  We will help you do it we believe in it too [TS]

  and so I think the people pulling it out is like show that he was hypocritical or whatever [TS]

  but I don't personally I don't begrudge people telling out I don't feel bad about the dogs I know I would sell in a [TS]

  second but not like he's getting hit he's getting to do his vision of E.R. [TS]

  And that's what I think is important I give you a look at John comics which is literally what is their vision of Yarza [TS]

  just that you play cool games on it. [TS]

  Both this guy both Palmer [TS]

  and karmic both seem to have you know reading between the lines of their vision of the are is like you know Casey's [TS]

  favorite book ready player one and you know or Snow Crash [TS]

  or ideally all the futuristic scenarios like you just jack into the Matrix you know whatever like any sort of ninety's [TS]

  bet like the original dream of the are you going to be in this virtual world and be like you are really there [TS]

  and they'll be this other worlds like Second Life. [TS]

  But you know how many times we take in runs of this like I think because to become a Titan like World of Warcraft which [TS]

  is not like the are at all but is very absorbing. [TS]

  I think that's their vision of the are like the potential the future potential of the R. [TS]

  and Comic it's like Facebook is good scaling and if we're going to do the are right is going to require scaling. [TS]

  He's not talking about of we're going to do we are right meaning if we're going to make a really cool first person [TS]

  shooter and we are scaling he means like the entire world in like a virtual world all wear headsets all interacting [TS]

  or whatever that appears to be their vision and I'm not sure if that's a good vision or if that's feasible vision [TS]

  or that or if they're just all kidding themselves [TS]

  and it's clear that right now they're constrained as making good games which I think is a good idea [TS]

  but if you look at it from that perspective kind of starts to make a little bit of sense like like like a tweet that [TS]

  Casey actually got the reference and if you're going to make it. [TS]

  Actual real world equivalent of always us from any player one Facebook post to us is like. [TS]

  Makes perfect sense doesn't it. [TS]

  Yeah that was exactly what I was thinking and I don't know I'm not sure that's the future [TS]

  and I'm not sure that I really like the idea of a ready player wants a future. [TS]

  But what it does make sense you're absolutely right and I think you hit the nail on the head a moment ago [TS]

  when you said it's it's not really mutually exclusive to think for. [TS]

  For Palmer to say hey we have a number and then to sell the face [TS]

  but I think what he was referring to we have a number of like you know one hundred billion dollars or whatever. [TS]

  If Apple were to buy a house [TS]

  but he genuinely seems to believe that him being in his company being bought for two billion is just a bonus it's icing [TS]

  on the cake for the fact that he can still do exactly what he's always planned to do. [TS]

  They're not mutually exclusive in his mind. So I think you got that exactly right. [TS]

  I don't know I don't know as much as I love ready player one [TS]

  and I know as much as I know you didn't I don't think I want that for our future but maybe I'm just being an old man. [TS]

  I would also going back a step. [TS]

  Jon use the word vision a lot in the last few minutes and talking about the vision they have for this product [TS]

  and vision I think is is overrated [TS]

  and overestimated in that I think I think the public thinks that people have a lot more of a vision. [TS]

  Place like a pre a predetermined vision in place and they really do [TS]

  and you know for a product like this it's it's you know it's pretty much paving new ground it's going off in this [TS]

  direction that has never worked before and doing it with much newer technology and you know much more advanced stuff [TS]

  and has ever been tried before. [TS]

  This is the kind of thing like most like most products [TS]

  and services where there's somebody at the top who appears to have a vision. [TS]

  This is the kind of thing where the vision probably stretches out for the next. [TS]

  It's months or maybe twelve months at the most [TS]

  and the person might might have this dream a future if things were somehow in five years [TS]

  or in ten years what's going to be. [TS]

  But in reality as a product goes on you're never going to get there are going to change there isn't there an editor [TS]

  they're going to adapt over time that you know they're going to adapt to a shifting market forces you know as they try [TS]

  things are going to realize oh this actually doesn't work well [TS]

  but the sort of thing does so let's do something instead like everything is going to be edited and shifted over time [TS]

  and adjusted based on where things are going and how things have gone for them so far [TS]

  and so you might think in theory that they have this vision Facebook's not going to interfere with that [TS]

  but the reality is being owned by Facebook will inherently interfere with that because their vision is going to be [TS]

  adjusted over time so in a year [TS]

  when they have to make some little decision the fact that they are owned by Facebook will on some level informed that [TS]

  decision [TS]

  and so the vision whatever visions of a set out you know by some guy having visions whatever was set out in a time is [TS]

  malleable and not guaranteed and the acquisition will definitely change that. [TS]

  And so what I will become [TS]

  and what they will do in the products they will making all the decisions they will make will definitely be influenced [TS]

  by this and some of those will be for the better and some of them won't be. [TS]

  But you know that the reason people say Steve Jobs is great visionary [TS]

  and the fact is Steve Jobs was a really great editor [TS]

  and a really hear very good sensibilities of where things were going. [TS]

  Susan But even his ideas were things to be like in ten years. [TS]

  We're not not that frequently expressed first of all [TS]

  but not usually that spot on I bet you know he he adjusted as he went out and he saw opportunities and took them. [TS]

  He didn't have all this product planned out ten years ahead of time. [TS]

  Now you know that's part of the seduction of acquiring company is that the acquire always has to convince the founder [TS]

  of a small star that they share their vision [TS]

  and I think the difficulty comes in that Facebook will convince them that they share the vision for Facebook shares a [TS]

  vision on a much shorter time scale like well see if this works out. [TS]

  Whereas the founders of Oculus believe in this vision like as an heir like a lifetime they are never going to give it [TS]

  up so if Facebook decides to sort of pivot as they say in current parlance or you know at a Division [TS]

  and then they're going to come in conflict with the founders of like no no we still have the original vision what do [TS]

  you mean it's like yeah well but were your bosses now so tough luck. [TS]

  So that's what I was getting at before that that's going to come to a head in a few years of things don't work out. [TS]

  But and in the small picture it is important to like it's great to have a vision [TS]

  but like what are you making now are you making. [TS]

  Are you going to make a product that people like and do you have a way to make money from it [TS]

  or to make money from something else until it can come into something that makes money. [TS]

  So you need to concern that this if you just have this vision here you're not going to get there [TS]

  but the case of Steve Jobs I think is a great example because he had a vision from the time he was you know like twenty [TS]

  years old. How computing should be and it would not be you know it took him like thirty years to get to that vision. [TS]

  And along the way he tried all sorts of different directions tried the mac to drive next he did you know that there is [TS]

  no laptops in their i Pods in the i Phones And Mike I would say that the i Pad is essentially the culmination of his [TS]

  vision of a computing should be like if you go back to like what I think he have a speech to some computer user group [TS]

  of like one hundred eighty three that you can find no audio version of and just go and listen to it [TS]

  and you're like he's describing the i Pad like in vague terms not specifically I was going to be this that the other [TS]

  thing I you know but the vision that computing should be simple and not have lots of fidgety bits and not have it. [TS]

  Out of indirection and you know portable and wireless know kind of like Saif I fancy things [TS]

  but like their vision sound all wishy washiness like how does that help you make the Macworld does [TS]

  and how did they help you make the next well it doesn't really write [TS]

  but maintaining that vision over his entire life was like kind of his guiding force led him in the direction of if I'm [TS]

  not sure where I want to go. [TS]

  Like if you zoom back on his entire life [TS]

  and career you can see it as like an entire lifetime spent trying to get to this ideal [TS]

  and finding lots of dead ends along the way lots of fruitful things and lots of distractions [TS]

  but just never letting go of that idea that you know that essentially the i Pad is what computing should be like you [TS]

  know actually I thought it should be even simpler and even cheaper cheaper and even lighter [TS]

  but he you know he didn't live long enough to see it happening but that being your guiding principle [TS]

  and not being married to some specific idea like it's got to be an earpiece [TS]

  or it's got to be hell even if you are at that or something [TS]

  but a broad vision of where you want to go to really helps you guide you as you're going along the steps of like oh we [TS]

  have to adjust Oh the situation is changing the realities of change like that's all well and good [TS]

  and you have to do that [TS]

  but if you don't have like an overall vision you will find yourself going off under one of those tenants [TS]

  and then continuing that direction like plowing forward in that direction forgetting about what your original vision of [TS]

  a new a find find yourself very far away from where you are [TS]

  and where you intended to go because you just found a fruitful avenue and direction [TS]

  and I think I'm not sure where Mark vision of future is but I'm pretty sure doesn't agree with the Oculus guys. [TS]

  And yeah that that will probably come to a head but I do think that their vision like having vision [TS]

  and having a clear one is an important thing. [TS]

  If you ever want to get there like over the course of a thirty year career despite all the different twists [TS]

  and turns you take do you think the Coburg has a vision beyond today. [TS]

  Like it seems if you look at the Facebook is doing and I mean the covers are really really sharp. [TS]

  I have even though I don't use Facebook and I don't really care for what it is. [TS]

  I can't deny that sucka Bergen's is a genius in so many ways [TS]

  and especially astute with with the business of technology and being in the business that he's in. [TS]

  Do you think he knows what's next. [TS]

  It seems like Facebook has maybe plateaued in a way that [TS]

  and again because I don't use it regularly it's hard for me to really say this authoritatively [TS]

  but it seems like he had a vision for where it was roughly two or three years ago. [TS]

  He got there and then it's been ever since then it's been like well now what. [TS]

  And kind of looking around like well I guess I could try the services [TS]

  but it seems it seems like he he was really focused and driven to achieve what it was two years ago [TS]

  and has not had a clear idea what to do since and that's why we've seen some weird experiments [TS]

  and weird moves from them since then. [TS]

  And maybe that's what some of these recent acquisitions are about because he is you know as as trying to find out [TS]

  what's going to be next because what Facebook is right now seems like it's kind of done I think is a perfect example of [TS]

  a second generation tech mogul like not living generation but second crop tech mogul [TS]

  and another ready player one analogy is the character [TS]

  and the protagonist ready player one who lived through the eighty's but he's a student of eighty's culture [TS]

  and so he's able to interact with that but I mean I think look at Gates and Jobs [TS]

  and you know even as I respect the founders of Google they're a little bit in the second generation of i like that you [TS]

  know I.B.M. [TS]

  and Apple and all those things as like kind of the that's his version of history like I want to be like those guys [TS]

  but smarter. [TS]

  So let me look at what all the things that they did when I start my company I'm not going to make the same mistakes [TS]

  and so we started out very early. [TS]

  Not making the mistake arguably that Oculus is made [TS]

  or whatever of not selling your company Yahoo offered him billions like Microsoft had billions of dollars during his [TS]

  face you know so many times and every time turned it down every time we turn it down the number is bigger [TS]

  and people would say I can't believe this kid Eternals money what a fool he's going to be screwed. But he knew that. [TS]

  Step one if you want to be a big boy in the tech industry. [TS]

  Don't sell your company to somebody like don't or even Steve Jobs case don't don't bring a C.E.O. [TS]

  Who's going to you know to run the company for you or never keep control. [TS]

  Don't sell out because that's like a prerequisite but to be so out like you're never going to be [TS]

  when you're just going to be a footnote you're never going to be the big guy. [TS]

  So he did that early on [TS]

  and then now you know make a great product make it something people want become worldwide like that's the Facebook that [TS]

  we know of [TS]

  and now is at the phase of like OK now I don't want to make the other mistake people make was like Microsoft once you [TS]

  get a you know personal computer on every desk running Microsoft software. [TS]

  Then [TS]

  when you do you like a dog about the car don't paralyze yourself don't put all your eggs behind in one basket branch [TS]

  out figure out what's next and get there before everybody else and if you make mistakes correct them quickly [TS]

  and so he's going off the playbook. [TS]

  The failed playbook of everyone has come before him that he looks up to and admires [TS]

  and trying to be smart about which is total a total nerd move you know like use you can use your brain power to try to [TS]

  not make the mistakes of the people you have mired Madan in some ways it reminds me of Pixar. [TS]

  The whole idea that like the creative process we can figure out what works and what doesn't [TS]

  and come up with a system that has an Orthodox [TS]

  or that might be which is truly a nerd's way to foster creativity like but you know not relying on tradition [TS]

  and convention and egos [TS]

  and not worrying about who has power just constraining like what works what kind of what can we measure what can we do [TS]

  that actually makes good products and if something doesn't work change it. That I think is his M.O. [TS]

  I think his lack of vision as far as I can tell I don't know what his personal business. [TS]

  Other than to like the thought of a like Bill Gates like be the victor in the technology world like to be the biggest [TS]

  one that is not a some people would call that an admirable vision [TS]

  but it's like a I don't know it's not it's not Steve Jobs a vision where he wanted to like do something for humanity [TS]

  and change the world. [TS]

  I don't know exactly where exhilaration is I think it would help if you had wonder right now he's doing better than a [TS]

  lot of the people who came the generations before him merely because he gets to learn from all their mistakes. Yeah. [TS]

  What's what else is called these things other than Oculus help spot. [TS]

  Casey are you still using email clients for customer support. [TS]

  Sure well as do you know you are probably losing track of important tickets [TS]

  or you try to use Mark is unread as an organizational tool or the flags you know you probably still I [TS]

  and your coworkers to see who's working on what this is a mess. It's time to get organized. [TS]

  Most helpdesk apps try to be all things to all people. Help spot on the other hand is focused. [TS]

  It deals only with customer inquiries [TS]

  and self-service knowledge bases so there's no asset management no password resetting no unnecessary features to get in [TS]

  your way or require any kind of complex integration work with your systems. [TS]

  Now help the software is usually really expensive some of them are around six hundred dollars per user per year for [TS]

  instance helps but is just to ninety nine per user one time [TS]

  and you own it for life that's not per month that's not per year twenty nine per user one time. [TS]

  There's no walking with help spot you can download it and host it yourself [TS]

  or you can have it hosted for you either way. [TS]

  You always have access to the database to directly query or take elsewhere [TS]

  and help spot has been around for a long time it's isn't just some new starve it's going to be bought by Facebook for [TS]

  two billion dollars next year and leave you stranded. [TS]

  It's been available for nearly a decade isn't adopted by thousands of companies [TS]

  and organizations customers from single person startups to Fortune five hundred companies use help spot to measure [TS]

  support teams. So you start a free trial today help spot dot com slash A.T.P. That's help. Spot dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  and If you do that you'll get a hundred dollars off your purchase when you use the coupon code A.T.P. Fourteen. [TS]

  So once again help spot great help desk software. Check it out. Help spot dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  and Use coupon code A.T.P. Fourteen for one hundred dollars off. Thank you very much to help spot for sponsorship. [TS]

  I have one more thing for the chat room an Oculus someone posted a while back in the chat room a quote from the John [TS]

  comic made and flashed on one hundred ninety nine that I actually remember reading in one thousand nine hundred nine [TS]

  and not because I'm assuming of where this person saw that a lot of people are retreating into reading it up today [TS]

  and the quote was I think it was in one of his interviews [TS]

  and fleshed out making Snow Crash into reality feels like a sort of moral imperative to a lot of programmers [TS]

  but the efforts that have been made so far Leave lot to be desired. [TS]

  I was in the one hundred ninety nine [TS]

  but his description of it did making Snow Crash real is a moral imperative to a lot of programmers I'm sitting meaning [TS]

  himself says all you need to know about Likewise John a comic during this company I mean if you think back to like what [TS]

  quake was supposed to be before it actually began a product like the idea it was going to be like the virtual world [TS]

  and more like an R.P.G. [TS]

  and Creating items of people until it just became a first person shooter [TS]

  but then Quake world where you could connect to people of the Internet like his entire career has been making steps in [TS]

  that direction like we wouldn't have this stuff if we didn't have all the three D. [TS]

  Stuff that he pioneered so it makes perfect sense to me. [TS]

  I think I can see what comic vision as he lays it out more or less like he read Snodgrass. [TS]

  He said Yes I want to go to there and he's been working towards that ever since. I will see what happens. [TS]

  A lot of people they asked about this speaking of Facebook this Facebook hack language language extension thing. [TS]

  And Mark in your post about it [TS]

  but I didn't know if you had any other commentary you may want to share if you could summarize you know what what your [TS]

  thoughts are on all of us. [TS]

  Well I don't have a lot more to say I think it's really interesting so so as a quick overview how is Facebook's. [TS]

  Basically it's a modification an addition to the P.H.P. Language. So they are taking P.H.P. [TS]

  and They are a couple years ago they made this hip hop compiler that would compile P.H.P. To C. Plus plus. [TS]

  That way it can be compiled binary and be way faster and they'd actually replace that with something called a V.M. [TS]

  For Hip-Hop V.M. [TS]

  and That was about a year ago they released that and it's it's basically a super high performance P.H.P. [TS]

  Git compiler runtime so it's and P.H.P. [TS]

  Has had like optimizing caching byte code compilers before it actually comes with one. [TS]

  But hip hop is way faster it's like two to ten times faster and useless memory [TS]

  and everything else so it's it's pretty substantial. [TS]

  So what they've done now is they've taken this project [TS]

  and they've they said well now that we've really implemented all of P.H.P. [TS]

  In a faster way let's start customizing it more to our taste. So they've added things to the language. [TS]

  Most substantial they added optional static typing in type ending which is really really great. [TS]

  That's one thing I would I love to I would love to have that So hack is basically P.H.P. [TS]

  Plus some stuff including most significant static typing optional. So it's very very interesting. [TS]

  I think you know P.H.P. Has always been a language where this in my post. [TS]

  It is not been stewarded Well it never [TS]

  and never was you know it's you know it's famously with that awesome article that P.H.P. [TS]

  Being a fractal of bad design willing to startle so much. It is not a well designed language. [TS]

  The people who who make the decisions about what should go into it and the syntax [TS]

  and what it should be called what method should be called. [TS]

  I'm having a lot of bad decisions over the years but it is an eminently practical language [TS]

  and that's why I use it I like it a lot and I don't love it. [TS]

  I think you know I get a lot of crap for saying in the article. P.H.P. [TS]

  Is not a great language but it is a good language [TS]

  and I didn't get a lot of crap from people who I know to be experienced programmers [TS]

  and I'm not I'm not saying that everyone who said crap to me about that is is a noob or anything [TS]

  but I think if you if you can look at the language you're using like this is actually a good way to bring us into this [TS]

  discussion so it's not just me talking to nobody for a while. [TS]

  Are there any Perryman languages that you know well enough to say are great I don't know if I'd say C. Sharp is great. [TS]

  I'd say I have very similar opinions as you do of P.H.P. In that I think it's really really good. [TS]

  I think it's been used to write some real real crap but I think it's extremely powerful [TS]

  and can be bent to do almost anything but you know that that flexibility comes with some cost [TS]

  and what do you think John. [TS]

  Think you probably qualify as a great language not to do anything in particular just because now we're so far away from [TS]

  it's like it's its time of usefulness that like it has a very has only a few warts on it [TS]

  and what it was designed to do it does really well without getting in your way. [TS]

  I guess probably because like a fine to a language it's great because like everything like what. [TS]

  What awkward and weird about C. United those point as well yes like of the whole point. [TS]

  I get that the love of language exists that it's right [TS]

  but like maybe you don't want to use it to make like a modern program [TS]

  but for what it does it's pretty good I go maybe I haven't. I was hesitant to say go because goes kind of like C. [TS]

  Done right but now we're in a different age and maybe go. [TS]

  It was like a little bit too low level to be a great line which I haven't used enough to say [TS]

  but it's kind of like see with the bad things shaved up and I added a bunch of other stuff too. [TS]

  But maybe something [TS]

  and I think any any of the more modern languages like Struve any pro is the more you know about the more you you see [TS]

  all the warts and all the horrible things about it. Xander P.H.P. [TS]

  Where you don't know that well to scale the word to cover it in more it is all wart [TS]

  but yeah you know like just think of any [TS]

  but the more you know language the more you just are disgusted by it because you just if you use it for real [TS]

  and become an expert in it you'll know where all the bodies are buried in your list. [TS]

  Feel bad about it but you know it's difficult anything anything that isn't in widespread use and it grows quickly [TS]

  and you know even in a best case scenario is going to eventually accumulate craft and you know P.H.P. and C. [TS]

  Plus plus for example start out with a hell of a lot of crap from the beginning and just got worse. [TS]

  Right I mean you know P.H.P. [TS]

  Started out as a pretty terrible language and became a good language over time but I think you're exactly right. [TS]

  That makes my point in saying this is that I feel like [TS]

  when you learn new language you go through the stages first it's unfamiliar to you [TS]

  and generally the your opinion of the language at that point tends to be extreme. [TS]

  Either this is terrible because you're being forced to use or something either you know through work [TS]

  or you have to you know use a certain language to be on a certain platform or whatever else [TS]

  and you know we've had you know when I when I first looked at Objective C. F. [TS]

  I will this is ridiculous language there's brackets all over the place. [TS]

  What the hell are they doing with these method names what is that why there's parentheses there [TS]

  and what's the plus doing all this other crap of like why can't use use words like everyone else [TS]

  but you know it was you look at this and it's unfair to you. [TS]

  And so if you're being forced or coerced to use it for some other reason that's usually you look at it [TS]

  and say this is terrible. If you are learning it because it's it's the new cool thing. [TS]

  Again you really want to learn it. [TS]

  You might have the opposite extreme reaction of everything is awesome Oh my God this is great this is the totally the [TS]

  way forward this is going to be amazing. [TS]

  And then as you learn more of the language as you have more experience with it here your opinion tends to you know move [TS]

  towards the middle. In some way like she start to go OK now you know I'm getting more familiar with it. [TS]

  It's not as bad as I thought or it's not as good as I thought. [TS]

  And you start seeing OK Well here are the things that are decent at this and I think getting the hang of it [TS]

  and a lot of times your opinions of the language shortcomings at that point are actually your shortcomings [TS]

  and knowing it like you might not think it has a good way to do X. [TS]

  Because you don't know you don't know a better way to do it [TS]

  but there is a better way to do it you just haven't learned it yet. [TS]

  And then as you tend to get more expertise in the language as you become an expert [TS]

  and really get a lot of experience that I think the wisdom that you reach at that point usually is OK This is actually [TS]

  a pretty good lamely look I can see what they were going for. I see why things are on the way they're done. I see. [TS]

  Oh well you know here's the school new way to do this thing that I didn't know about before [TS]

  and all the code I wrote before this point was crap now I want to remind all that stuff the right way. [TS]

  Now I know this language much better this is great. [TS]

  And then a year after that you're still writing this language [TS]

  and then you start saying OK Actually these parts of the language are really getting in my way now. [TS]

  Now I know that this is a wall here. [TS]

  Like there's there is no way past us with this language [TS]

  or there is no better way to do this that is just a stupid wall because the language is stupid [TS]

  and so as you get further in knowing a language you eventually realize that every language sucks in some ways. [TS]

  Like I've never I've never learned a programming language well that I thought didn't suck in some way. [TS]

  Although I will say gee I think I might give C. The highest overall. All rating maybe. [TS]

  But regardless you know I think every language sucks in in some ways [TS]

  and if you if you can't see why the language you're using sucks in certain ways you're probably in that early stage of [TS]

  it where it's still very new and novel and you maybe you haven't used it enough to really were into some of the walls [TS]

  or maybe just you know the the way you've used it just hasn't been expansive enough in the grand scheme of things to [TS]

  really Renton's certain certain types of problem that are going to spring into so I think similarly it's hard to say [TS]

  any language is bad in the same way it it's hard to say really which is any language is particularly great. [TS]

  It's hard to say language is particularly bad because you know the reason why people say language is bad is because of [TS]

  faults that are not the languages it's because of you know bad code they've seen bad programmers they've interacted [TS]

  with or bad code they found online [TS]

  or bad a bad situation that they that they got that they had to write that language in [TS]

  or a bad code base they had to work on written in that language. [TS]

  None of those things necessarily are because of the language there. [TS]

  You know often there because of the people you're working with or the way the language was used by a novice. [TS]

  And there are people writing bad code in every language and so I feel like a lot of the criticism about P.H.P. [TS]

  or Been any [TS]

  but you know you can tell the same things about Visual Basic Visual Basic back in the day you know the language I knew [TS]

  pretty well I know how to pick up Visual Basic back in the day. [TS]

  I mean you could say it was a weird language or a lot of weird things about it [TS]

  but a lot of people got a lot done in that language because it worked pretty well [TS]

  and it wasn't cool ever it was you know it was never respected by programmers but it worked [TS]

  and it wasn't as bad as most programmers think because they never bothered to to learn how to write well in it [TS]

  and they probably saw a lot of bad V.B. Code so it was very similar thing with P.H.P. and With any language like. [TS]

  Look at the language and you can say well it works like there are some weird edge cases [TS]

  but for the most part the language works. [TS]

  You know people build large apps and all of them if you look on some page and you can get it was like the. [TS]

  Like what what the biggest Web site in the world are built on and I think a good quarter of of the top ten [TS]

  or twenty were written in P.H.P. [TS]

  Including Facebook with wordpress dot com Tumblr I think as far as I still know things like that. [TS]

  There's a lot of P.H.P. Out there being used and Yahoo uses it pretty heavily. It's you know it's fine. [TS]

  It's it's down to what you write and how you write it and there are certain things like the libraries can help [TS]

  or hurt in certain ways although there's nothing stopping you from running your own libraries [TS]

  or modifying the ones that are there. So anyway all this is to say back to Facebook's hack. [TS]

  The concept of Facebook taking like kind of taking control of this branch of P.H.P. First with a V.M. [TS]

  and Now with their own language modifications of the that are calling their own language that I think is an interesting [TS]

  thing that here is here is language that was kind of you know managed with mediocrity taken by this other company. [TS]

  They just took it over like they just took it over and P.H.P. [TS]

  Is going to continue but so what they did was reimplement P.H.P. Five point four now of P.H.P. If the real P.H.P. [TS]

  People make P.H.P. Five point six or P.H.P. [TS]

  Six point zero in ways that Facebook really doesn't like or in ways the Facebook things are worse. [TS]

  What if Facebook says you know what V.M. Is not going to support that. [TS]

  We're going to we're going to actually just fork the language [TS]

  and just say we're not going to maintain parity anymore because that stupid we're going to differ in these ways.. [TS]

  It really is kind of like they're really really taking control they're not just like adding the role of P.H.P. [TS]

  It's a Sara Lee forever there. They have taken some control and they might they might then diverge with that control. [TS]

  I think that actually might be better though in all ways except one. [TS]

  So Facebook technically has WAY better skill than the P.H.P. Authors. [TS]

  There's no question about that they're way better at it. Their their run time is way better. [TS]

  Their ideas of where the language should go with [TS]

  but by looking at how you can see what they thought the language needed I think I disagree with some of their changes [TS]

  and I think some of the changes look really weird [TS]

  but ultimately the things they chose to add are mostly pretty good things. [TS]

  So if Facebook really does kind of take the language over [TS]

  and become the dominant implementation of the dominant spec of the language that's great. [TS]

  Until Facebook decides it no longer is interested [TS]

  and then there it could be a weird point where let's say you write a bunch of hacked code let's say you decide OK you [TS]

  know what this hack thing is pretty cool. I want to start using it in my P.H.P. Code. Let's do it. [TS]

  That's great things open source in theory that should work. [TS]

  But if Ace book decides in a year or two years or three years. [TS]

  Yeah we're actually done with this we're going to do something else [TS]

  and it's not going to open source Never mind that kind of screws people. [TS]

  So that's that's my only caution that you know that that could happen here. [TS]

  That Besides that I think overall this is a good thing although there's no question it will definitely fragment the [TS]

  P.H.P. Community. That being said the unity largely sucks. [TS]

  So the fact they get fragmented I don't think is a bad thing [TS]

  but you also point on your blog post is like this is they're using this to write stuff on the server side so it's not [TS]

  like they have a developer community out there is like for example Apple Objective C. [TS]

  Like they want people to write apps of the App Store in Objective C. [TS]

  So they're sort of maintaining an imperious language on behalf of all these developers where a space book is. [TS]

  Maintaining an bring peace be on behalf of Facebook employees who writes Facebook back [TS]

  and far as I know they don't have any kind of like hey you go right you know like a development platform for people to [TS]

  write code in hack that runs on top of Facebook [TS]

  or runs elsewhere is that correct I know Facebook has was a baby eyes [TS]

  but as far as I know they're like kind of Web Service thank you. [TS]

  Right on top of Facebook and not like write something [TS]

  and Hackett will run inside Facebook maybe I'm wrong about that [TS]

  but even if you know that was the case I think people who've built like built code on top of Facebook's platform have [TS]

  been burned in the past because Facebook basically just want something to run their their server side web application [TS]

  what they want to all the right and maintain it efficiently and that is their sole focus [TS]

  and so if they change their mind as they had already like these that hip hop which the thing that took P.H.P. [TS]

  Turned into C. Plus plus plus plus into this big monster executable that was their previous approach. [TS]

  This is their current approach and a few more years maybe they'll have another approach. [TS]

  And at that point it's not so much they will forked hack so far it's just the will lose interest in it like I think [TS]

  another project I think it is like scribe [TS]

  or three of these logging infrastructure thing which was originally a Facebook product [TS]

  and they kind of lost interest with it and it languished for a long time [TS]

  and I think like the open source community like picked it up and made a alternative or a port or a fork of it [TS]

  or whatever so it could be that hack ends up you know Facebook decides on whatever the next approach is in four [TS]

  or five years. [TS]

  Hack is left to die on the vine and so does open source the open source community grabs it and that is like P.H.P. [TS]

  Seven or something and hopefully continues to run with it but you hope this the P.H.P. [TS]

  Community around to do that in several years. [TS]

  You hope it doesn't just like starve everybody out and all there is attack and then they spoke with interest [TS]

  and had to replace it with something better [TS]

  and there's no one left to maintain AK What a terrible name that is by the way you know yet. [TS]

  I think a Facebook loses interest in this if they abandon it. I don't think there's enough people in the P.C. [TS]

  Community who would like it enough. [TS]

  And who would have the time and the skill to maintain it properly I think if Facebook abandons it it's done. [TS]

  That's it because the official Peterman probably want nothing to do with it they probably are not happy about the [TS]

  existence of that really is like a big middle finger to them saying your language was bad so we made our own version of [TS]

  it that's better. [TS]

  Well as you pointed out they probably deserve a middle finger that was their namespace in character for the backslash [TS]

  alone right. [TS]

  Like backslash I What the heck was that there's anything to serve the middle finger [TS]

  and then I stood on Usenet spaces for that reason I think if you had to pick if you had to pick a worse character going [TS]

  to think of one without you can live you're not going to Miley's like pile of Poe's going you know the worst [TS]

  or worse ASCII character I don't think there is one. Maybe like maybe a non printing character I guess. Vertical Pab. [TS]

  So anyway yeah I don't think I don't think the official P.C. [TS]

  Maintainers even if they chose to take it over which I think is very very unlikely. [TS]

  I don't think that would be a good thing. [TS]

  So yeah basically a Facebook is a fun hack hack is over [TS]

  and like you know what I'm I'm choosing to write my overcast code base. Now I'm writing it in P.H.P. [TS]

  and I'm running on a huge V.M.S. [TS]

  As of a few days ago and it's great but I'm hesitant to adopt hacks because like what I wrote Instapaper is code base. [TS]

  It was two thousand it was late two thousand and seven when I first wrote that the beginnings of that [TS]

  and it was still running that code base to the best of my knowledge until mid twenty thirteen [TS]

  and then around to get it like it had not been to any language until mid two thousand and thirteen [TS]

  and so you know that's that's a long time and so to have. [TS]

  But at six years [TS]

  or so to start something now like I do things for not not the long haul if the Yankees are going to last twenty years [TS]

  but I do things with defecation other going to last a couple years at least three to five years sounds reasonable to me [TS]

  and so do I think this language is going to still be healthy and around a maintained in three to five years. [TS]

  I don't know I think it's way too soon to say because Facebook is using it now but you know like they're they're not. [TS]

  I think somebody looked at it [TS]

  and I think it's like it's not being developed in the open it's like they're having just like code dumps every once in [TS]

  a while. [TS]

  So they're developing internally [TS]

  and they're just dumping back to the back of the public codebase occasionally like every every couple of weeks [TS]

  or whatever. So like web cam the I think so. So like you know like a Facebook start losing interest in this. [TS]

  Will your star see old start slowing down those code dumps [TS]

  and eventually the version they're going to use internally is going to be so divergent from the from the public version [TS]

  others kind of stop it stop thinking it's worth maintaining the public version and you know there are so many. [TS]

  There are so many plausible realistic ways where this language could get just kind of withered and killed [TS]

  or abandoned over the next few years as Facebook's interest and needs change themselves. [TS]

  That I would hesitate to build anything big on it today. [TS]

  What I am interested in is one of the great advantages of hack and of hip hop is the static type checker. [TS]

  So I would like to write my code in hack but have it compiled down to P.H.P. [TS]

  Optionally [TS]

  and that should be pretty easy to do because they they have an open source compiler right there in the world. So. [TS]

  In fact there's even some command line options that are not implemented on a V.M. [TS]

  That make it possibly even easier than that. But if there was an option for the V.M. Runtime to compile hack to P.H.P. [TS]

  Seamlessly that would be more interesting because then you could write your code in half and you can either run it [TS]

  and hack on the server or Facebook said to be dicks and kill it. You can compile them to P.H.P. and Keep working. [TS]

  Or you could keep it as hack compelled to P.H.P. For deployment before you deploy. [TS]

  When the static analyzer on your entire codebase [TS]

  and have it be like a pre-commit hook so you could say Alright I'm going to use it without checking [TS]

  and I'm not going to be checking in at runtime all the time but I will check a compile time or commit time [TS]

  and so then you will still get a lot of the benefits of those add ons not some of the other add on in the language [TS]

  but you know there is there are some languages. [TS]

  I mean sorry there are some out onto the language that could be very easily removed and stripped out for a P.H.P. [TS]

  Compile. Not all of them but some. So that I'm interested in. Otherwise I think I'm in a wait and see. [TS]

  All right thanks a lot two or three sponsors this week help spot a glue and Warby Parker [TS]

  and we will see you next week to be accidental. And you are sitting on the way this is asking a. [TS]

  My titles are always on vacation in California like that. [TS]

  I kind of like that one thing that you can now Marco gets to experience the bitterness of of the of parents where you [TS]

  see like Greece just seem like matters as far as and yes it does look like he's always on vacation and National Park. [TS]

  He's not carrying like a bouncy seat and a bunch of toys and right now he's not. [TS]

  He's carefree go wherever he wants is an adult to know that the worry about Nap time are feeding people [TS]

  or people being cranky or changing poopy diapers and he's always on vacation and you sent me this notebook [TS]

  and I want to go to work. [TS]

  That's why there is this like cult of California [TS]

  and maybe you just mean like generalizing the Seabees tech people doing other stuff [TS]

  but it just seems like California people have have such like such beautiful climates and such beautiful landscapes [TS]

  and everything's great especially like protect people who are young [TS]

  and again well you know as you said they don't have kids yet maybe or they're on their ranch with Ronald Reagan. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  and like it's like I feel like being on the east coast keeps me a little bit closer to reality even though I live in a [TS]

  suburb of New York City so of course it's nothing like reality [TS]

  but I think I think being here has a very different perspective [TS]

  and that part of the problem in the valley is is a pretty severe lack of perspective I think of the fame of going out [TS]

  there is better to Instagram then where I can make a scene like that can't always be on vacation he believes [TS]

  or whatever but they make it seem like it was I think a lot of pictures when they go ahead they go them out. [TS]

  Over time so as far as you're concerned like they're always in Japan at some neutral place [TS]

  or they're always in Thousand America somewhere in a jungle or there oh even your sanity [TS]

  but they're not they go on vacations they take a thousand pictures [TS]

  and they spread them out over the year that you don't see pictures of them sitting in front of their MacBook Pro for [TS]

  fifty hours a week for most of the air which I simmered how they spent most of that time for me I do like always on the [TS]

  case in California I'm going to mention this on the show but both Lander brothers live in California no one outside [TS]

  or in San Diego one out on L.A. And now when I talk to them on the phone. [TS]

  Generally speaking every single time I talk to either of my brothers on the phone. [TS]

  One of them makes a reference to how the West Coast is the best coast [TS]

  and I'm just like ill just wait until the earthquakes and the fires come [TS]

  and the drought in the high in as they don't live there. All the Google buses. Goodness by everyone live listeners. [TS]

  You've been an amazing audience. Thank you so much for coming out here tonight. Lou go city name. Hello Cleveland. [TS]

  You don't ever go see movies in the theater do you. MARCO What are you kidding. [TS]

  That's why I thought one of us I remember who was one thing was me said Everything is awesome [TS]

  and that begs for you to cut a I know I almost made the comment [TS]

  but I figured you as wouldn't get that reference I guess Kitty would have cases the new Mr Evan together about that [TS]

  time for today. [TS]

  Well maybe actually the books that were not really play [TS]

  or one that you're talking about no idea never heard of snow corral No I filmed I didn't even know I didn't make the [TS]

  joke about you guys I like Marco So crash nothing. You cannot put this in the show you'll get so much. [TS]

  Anyway the point is there's a song Marco called Everything is awesome and it's in the Lego movie [TS]

  and it's like ridiculously over the top with it really. There's actually a little movie that wasn't a joke. [TS]