The Accidental Tech Podcast

5: Negativity, Skepticism, and Doubt

 

  people treating me think that was drunk last show you didn't get essentially [TS]

  terrible best not to use only when your drunk like when your second people [TS]

  people crazy so what we talked about tonight I think I know I mean I think we [TS]

  have to talk about the Google Reader thing I think we do so let me start by [TS]

  asking to either of you guys believe in RSS I presume the answer is a resounding [TS]

  yes it exists whether you believe it or not it's all good just like Love III use [TS]

  ours is constantly lot of people have always said that the RSS is dead and I i [TS]

  dont use RSS I could replace it with Twitter whatever and I think that's true [TS]

  for a lot of people certainly but RSS as a technology is fine it behind the [TS]

  scenes of quite a lot of things and a lot of people do use it the way you [TS]

  think of when you say do you use are as a lot of people still do that and I [TS]

  don't really think that's ever going away because it serves water really good [TS]

  functions of the problem with ours as well one of the problems are says is [TS]

  that it gives you a really really easy way to shoot yourself in the foot which [TS]

  is you subscribe to all the sites that everyone's heard of all the big like 30 [TS]

  posts a day blogs and news sites and everything so it's very very easy to [TS]

  reach a point where you're getting like 500 new RSS items per day and you just [TS]

  don't you can get all that and so it piles up and it becomes this guilt in [TS]

  box that you never want to clear and so I usually that results in New abandoning [TS]

  our assessment can I can never go back to RSS too many unread items you know [TS]

  that happens a lot especially with geeks and so I can totally see why people move [TS]

  off of our assessment at that point but it doesn't mean that you have to admit [TS]

  the only option and doesn't mean RSS is dead or dying it just means you're using [TS]

  it badly and sure you know it it's partially the technology's fault for [TS]

  being so easy to misuse or to use an unsustainable way for you for yourself [TS]

  but [TS]

  that's not to say the entire technology is dead and you can eat people at the [TS]

  same problem with Twitter where they follow too many people and they can't [TS]

  keep up with their feed and so they they find ways around it they skip everything [TS]

  is one of the top of the only look at new stuff or whatever you know that you [TS]

  find ways around it [TS]

  they trim their follower counts right you know we think alike you know lots of [TS]

  people saying well nobody uses are so small but obviously in our circles in [TS]

  the sort of three travel and on the net it I think the usage is still pretty [TS]

  widespread I was looking at you know group just we did a little before he [TS]

  treated his stats on a website but he tweeted the actual like logline 200,000 [TS]

  and 400,000 subscribers all nobody uses are as well apparently 400,000 people at [TS]

  least are using it because that's just from one site stats right so that's it [TS]

  yeah we're a tiny group of people right but you know in the circle of travel and [TS]

  computer nerds is big enough to sustain a technology because this point [TS]

  technologies we use that nobody else interested in a mean like how many [TS]

  people use Xcode and it still viable products because it has a purpose right [TS]

  so that the net remains to be seen [TS]

  you know like I mean we sustained winner for a long time just ourselves we're not [TS]

  discovered IRC it's not I don't think the like the popularity of the the [TS]

  technology its way past the threshold like it's viable right so the only [TS]

  question is you know the technology is viable there's more than enough people [TS]

  want to use it more than enough people to sustain a market for the usage of [TS]

  that is just a question of where do we go from here now that you know goal came [TS]

  along and pushed everybody out and then took its bomb I know right and and you [TS]

  know a lot of people are saying to google said that using has been [TS]

  declining so it's not worth keeping up well there's a whole lot of businesses [TS]

  that are not worth the Google paying attention to at their size but that a [TS]

  lot of smaller companies can make very good businesses addressing those needs [TS]

  you know there's a lot of things Google doesn't do i mean certainly you can look [TS]

  at some of their projects and they do everything is a major flop [TS]

  experimentation but you know if RSS is now too small for Google to care about [TS]

  that doesn't mean that is too small for anyone to care [TS]

  about it's not so much that I don't think that's too small too cool to care [TS]

  about like now as if like this I don't know how much i buy the thing i wud [TS]

  declining readership it's it's almost as if like they didn't never had a reason [TS]

  to get into it all anyway really like I think by the time they got into it was [TS]

  clear that it wasn't going to be the next winter [TS]

  you know like ours as it was what it was and it was never gonna like suddenly [TS]

  bust out in because it's kind of like it's kinda like using the day's news and [TS]

  stuff it ending using that was going to sweep the nation and run the world and [TS]

  just become like it was already used that was already you know sort of the [TS]

  thing that it was but you know I guess we might as well have that and them [TS]

  having a reasonable free products such a long period of time [TS]

  kind of doing intentionally to crash everybody else but the the net effect [TS]

  was good really good at keeping their servers up cool is really good at making [TS]

  their service fast and doing the things they were doing is actually kind of [TS]

  difficult and they're giving away for free so the company like NewsGator is [TS]

  something we're trying to make a business out of it couldn't do it was [TS]

  like yeah we're better than Google Reader but just barely and their free [TS]

  and so you know they just SAT there until everyone else has gone out of [TS]

  business in the city why are we even doing Google Reader I don't know what [TS]

  stop doing that I mean I think they kept going longer than they had to come like [TS]

  a relationship where you want to break up with somebody like just keep you know [TS]

  like four years I think anyone who is surprised by this I would be shocked [TS]

  because like I've been looking forward to for years and things like why are [TS]

  they still going every day we all knew the hammer was gonna fall years and [TS]

  years like even a blog post about a nightmare reading his blog postings [TS]

  angle yet Google Reader is not long for this world and yet here we are two years [TS]

  later and I'm just finally getting around axing it so I don't know anyone [TS]

  who's mad Google tracks and understand where that comes from other than just [TS]

  frustration I totally I totally see why they're getting rid of it and your post [TS]

  the bond market you put on your website just like this finally freezes all up to [TS]

  maybe do something interesting in the area that's also true but I think people [TS]

  are still bummed I was bomb because we know like alright [TS]

  that the other shoe finally dropped now we have to have this period of time [TS]

  where there's nothing healthy weight for something you know what I mean is [TS]

  already there is only a matter of a familiar for the do it together they [TS]

  make some clients marxist clients be posted on their blog like a very fast [TS]

  after very quickly after Google+ their thing that they've they are kinda [TS]

  preparing for this for a while and they built an API compatible clone of Google [TS]

  Reader for themselves that their clients will automatically start syncing with [TS]

  Google Reader shuts down and and is already like a number i mean just [TS]

  tonight on Twitter I thought about building one there's already tons of [TS]

  people saying OK announcer in this new project is gonna marry the Google API [TS]

  and you can self-hosted open source or whatever or somebody else can build a [TS]

  big platform on it I do think though it was really funny that feeling in their [TS]

  post they said okay so we thought it was gonna shut us down for a while so we [TS]

  built this thing we built on Google AppEngine but that's the thing about it [TS]

  like what do you know it's not that we're Google Reader did it so [TS]

  groundbreaking it's the fact that it was run by Google which meant that it was up [TS]

  and available in there and I'm sure people are going to say oh is down until [TS]

  recently the reason having someone else do this annoying stuff like that [TS]

  operation stuff running a server keeping up keeping efficient having it work at [TS]

  scale from many brazilians [TS]

  even RSS like oh the declining usership the number of people are getting Google [TS]

  Reader is huge compared to like you know you're some little companies ok well [TS]

  we're gonna have seven million people over tomorrow and pull stuff from it is [TS]

  that you're ok with that can you scale sure it's not easy and one of the [TS]

  biggest challenges of designing a service like that is that Google called [TS]

  the feeds and then the client just logged into Google and said hey what's [TS]

  new [TS]

  so Google had to maintain this crawling infrastructure the entire internet right [TS]

  now so we're kind of unique position right is that better than you right but [TS]

  for anyone else to do it you have to build a crawling at the structure that [TS]

  has to crawl like millions and millions of feeds quickly and repeatedly [TS]

  new updates do you think that's an important part of the service them all [TS]

  yet it is absolutely great yeah because that's a that's a major thing that your [TS]

  app doesn't have to do if you're running RSS client that's a big deal and it also [TS]

  they normalize all the feeds into one particular Adam format so you only one [TS]

  partner I mean it's there's there's lots of reasons for clients to want to do it [TS]

  that way service against that so yeah I think any service Google Reader is going [TS]

  to have to provide at least the automatic content crawling and [TS]

  normalization of the field format now that they can leave out all the social [TS]

  stuff they can leave out flagging tagging starring all they can leave all [TS]

  that stuff out as far as I'm concerned but the basics of sinking a list of [TS]

  features ascribe to thinking what you have read and unread and providing that [TS]

  whole crawling back end so that the client doesn't have to do it I think any [TS]

  any replacement has to do those things and why the crying part that's just [TS]

  basically so the client doesn't have to open up ten million TCP connections to [TS]

  ten nine different servers and pull stuff from it exactly what we see this [TS]

  and we see this week podcast clients on on iOS there there is I think only one I [TS]

  think only pocket cast by shifty jelly they do server-side crawling of all the [TS]

  feeds similar to a career doesn't RSS I don't think any other major client does [TS]

  that please e-mail John if I'm wrong I will let you know that actually but like [TS]

  I use downcast my feet from my podcast client and every time you launch the app [TS]

  has to update it has to crawl whatever you know all 25 or whatever number feed [TS]

  subscribe to individually and that sucks and it's a big waste of bandwidth for [TS]

  things that don't implement not modified stuff like that it's very inefficient on [TS]

  like a thin client like phone we don't really want to have some massive on a [TS]

  desktop we're just playing in the background who cares [TS]

  rightists if you have some app in the back on its fine but an iOS that matters [TS]

  a lot when you launch the app you don't have to sit there for a minute and a [TS]

  half all qualities feeds you know Google Reader clients are awesome because [TS]

  they only have to sink to one thing they only have to get Google and Google back [TS]

  saying here's a list of new things instead of with RSS you might have way [TS]

  more subscriptions on the podcast client so what are you if you subscribe to like [TS]

  250 feeds and most of them are updated most of the time but there's a few that [TS]

  are that's way more efficient to do the Google Reader way where the service I [TS]

  cross everything than that required the clients across hundred fifty feeds every [TS]

  15 minutes that you launch them a transitional things like fast forward 20 [TS]

  years is still a factor that we still have like an awesome teen core [TS]

  processors and R&R wristwatch communicative things and bandwidth is [TS]

  really high and we just as actually faster to call crawl hundred fifty [TS]

  different URLs in parallel than to ask one server 40 no cause think about think [TS]

  about what you have to do you have to if you so much more did it the radios on [TS]

  longer I mean that's it that's never gonna be a more efficient it's always [TS]

  gonna be better to go through the intermediate and I will be more [TS]

  efficient but maybe the desktop on the desktop is not as much of a factor [TS]

  because we're not worried about opening up opening up a TCP connection takes a [TS]

  long time so you don't have to open up one of them it's better than having to [TS]

  open up a hundred and fifty but the bandwidth concerns like assuming mobile [TS]

  bandwidth you know goes away and the CPU concerns of having all these threads [TS]

  going at once which is untenable on iOS device today maybe that isn't in the [TS]

  future I'm just wondering if it's like one of those things where I remember [TS]

  back when to do any sort of are assessing the server like we don't do [TS]

  that for the web we don't do all the mobile web surfing through a proxy [TS]

  unless you I guess my self and non-self does that everybody used to be in the [TS]

  bad old days the mobile web surfing had to go through a proxy cuz it had to like [TS]

  tear down the pages for you and all sorts of all things in the Amazon still [TS]

  doing it but we accept now the tradeoff is like a rather have Mobile Safari just [TS]

  go right to the website don't compress my images don't modify the mark up like [TS]

  a real web browser it connects the real way and we're just gonna bite the bullet [TS]

  and go with that it seems to me that that's gotta be eventually the future so [TS]

  we are still around [TS]

  that's got to be the future of this type of service long-term not not last long [TS]

  but also the RSS like the access path [TS]

  is different with RSS almost all of those requests that the polling client [TS]

  makes are gonna be returned back with nothing to you know i three of three or [TS]

  four whenever you know nothing new so for the client after check that over and [TS]

  over again is extremely wasteful so and one way you can solve this is with push [TS]

  up somehow and RSS cloud to address this push issue but pushes really complicated [TS]

  to implement all various ends of it the polling was just way similar sites we [TS]

  still have it but you know with RSS I think it makes a lot of sense because [TS]

  almost all of the polls that happened will result in nothing new this fifty [TS]

  minute interval then it makes sense to have all that inefficient polling [TS]

  happening somewhere else that can tolerate inefficiency is like a [TS]

  datacenter that's powered by AC power and on a battery that has a big fat [TS]

  connection to the Internet and is always running this app as opposed to it after [TS]

  launch and you have to look I S apt who knows how this will change in the future [TS]

  but at the moment [TS]

  iOS apps like RSS readers can't automatically check things in the [TS]

  background about 15 minutes they have to be running and so when you launch it has [TS]

  to lose all that state from something right then and there are so many reasons [TS]

  to have that be remote based and have you know have a Google Reader like setup [TS]

  where the service doing all the crawling in the client just send you one very [TS]

  lightweight request to the server which is already done most of the work and I [TS]

  think the thing that that maybe we're not considering is the difference it is [TS]

  at creation time and money guys kind of lightly touching the second ago but if I [TS]

  was about to write a pirate in RSS client tomorrow I wouldn't want to have [TS]

  to fiddle around with with trying to figure out all the different and varied [TS]

  responses I'm gonna get from all these different and varied web servers I want [TS]

  something that's going to be a facade in front of that that's going to make them [TS]

  nice and clean and so I can get the part of the app that i dont wanna do which is [TS]

  the behind the scenes boring getting the the RSS updates and I can get that out [TS]

  of the way as quickly as possible so I can do the cool stuff on the UI side now [TS]

  as it turns out I actually am a terrible UI developer but in principle if your [TS]

  gonna right now [TS]

  do it because you have something new and exciting to do and you're not going to [TS]

  want to bother with doing on the back end stuff you can do all the UI stuff in [TS]

  in like you were saying Marco having one place to get all that normalized and in [TS]

  a clean clean stayed is much better nazis you so much time went by before [TS]

  you compile when you're just writing the code it saves so much time and that I [TS]

  don't think many people have very much interest in doing that boring stuff they [TS]

  just want to do the fun you I study also there there's a practical aspect of lake [TS]

  with with iOS apps in the App Store if there are some new weirdo feed that you [TS]

  find that some weird format if it's a service I configuration of the parser [TS]

  you can update immediately and all your clients have immediately you don't have [TS]

  to recode the apple butter a preview and channeling they wanted you might be like [TS]

  the idea that I and the idea of all all rss feeds funneling into a service which [TS]

  includes a nap I see all the reasons for it but it just sits a seems like Amazon [TS]

  Silk to me it seems like wow that was like it that's that it just smells like [TS]

  that to me and it seems like it's just a bump in the road along our way to fully [TS]

  decentralized thinking maybe maybe we need a new protocol that may be pulling [TS]

  down entire RSS feed or expecting a three or four based on some time stamp [TS]

  hopefully getting your time zone right and everything is not like me maybe [TS]

  there's a better product may be tapped net or something that looks similar to [TS]

  that where if you make it more efficient protocol and really decentralized it in [TS]

  some way maybe it makes up for it but I mean you know the other aspect of things [TS]

  not just that the content crying but the main reason the main way that I use [TS]

  Google Reader I think at least a quarter of the people who are regular readers [TS]

  use in this way as as a syncing service as in I read news as you know that's an [TS]

  activity I do in some place and when I go someplace else a different computer [TS]

  different device or whatever I wanted to know that I read that thing [TS]

  other thing and that is really an entirely separate thing from irate my [TS]

  feeds normalize them tell me this updates and stuff like that because now [TS]

  you're into like a state synchronization that has nothing to do with the fees as [TS]

  everything to do with you what did you read so far you know what did you [TS]

  subscribe to what they do on the subscribe to and that state [TS]

  synchronization is probably harder problem you know algorithmic [TS]

  algorithmically least to find figure out what the hell the right thing is to do [TS]

  that then the near operational problem of crying the entire web of RSS feeds [TS]

  and normalizing them of writing a response like that and so those those [TS]

  two things that's quite a bit for any one party or multiple parties to bite [TS]

  off because that's what people are looking for you you'd never see the Guru [TS]

  web UI some people live in it but I never even look at that news wire and I [TS]

  used on various devices on various machines and I wanted to be in sync so I [TS]

  want something to do that as well as like the normalization I don't see that [TS]

  that's going on it's more of a development concern so something doesn't [TS]

  normalizing doesn't aggravate and for example doesn't cash which you know the [TS]

  thing that drives everyone who authors and artists be crazy about careers you [TS]

  get a bomb item in their never forget another opportunity for someone coming [TS]

  into this field to do it better hey give us a way to delete that crap out or [TS]

  maybe have smart caching that forgets it disappears but anyway those the sinking [TS]

  aspect of it it is what I'm really looking for in some third party vendor [TS]

  to hop up and say hey we're going to provide a service for all your news [TS]

  reading applications to keep them on sink and will charge some small amount [TS]

  of money in your subscribe to it or something like that yeah it snowed fever [TS]

  is that right fever response to that is what we like self-hosted and what does [TS]

  it mean but the problem is like when you ask people to sell host I can I know and [TS]

  technical and knowledge but I don't know I agree some posting as that will always [TS]

  accept your audience and requiring that I mean if it's a good way to learn [TS]

  something you don't know about all the technologies involved self hosting is a [TS]

  good learning experience for with an audience of one so you're not like you [TS]

  know destroying some [TS]

  business you know learning about suicide development but it's the you know that's [TS]

  that's hosting is not going to explode now that Google Reader is gone but we [TS]

  all wanted something to do with Google Reader did for us because you know when [TS]

  I read something that it's red and everything is fast and all my clients [TS]

  work with it and you know and some people use the web interface for them [TS]

  they're looking for an equivalent or better web interface I i think i I think [TS]

  the web interface hopefully is is on its way out for RSS because I mean certainly [TS]

  RSS is being pushed pretty heavily it always was a very eccentric technology [TS]

  and and while there are non geeks user I'm sure there are a heck of a lot more [TS]

  geeks who do and so if RSS like if if the web reader experience never fully [TS]

  gets replaced I think that's fine where I think we're going to see you know I [TS]

  think we're gonna see to these come out of us first we gonna see you know [TS]

  obviously we're going to see that the the backend sinking platform will be [TS]

  replaced by a million different people doing doing basically doing the same [TS]

  thing which is just marrying the Google Reader API with some kind of hosted or [TS]

  open source thing that anybody can get or use and at school and we need that [TS]

  would be kind of a shame because everything i've heard from people who [TS]

  develop against the career API I've makes it doesn't help that it was [TS]

  undocumented unsupported breath like if you had if you had to pick an API to [TS]

  make it easy for app developers to implement same thing maybe the Google [TS]

  reedy API is not ideal I understand how to do it [TS]

  compatibility with all the people who are talking to Google Reader but if I [TS]

  was doing one of the projects I would be like ok do the Google Reader API [TS]

  mirroring to get us off the ground but let's plan like a much better ABI the [TS]

  makes it even easier for developers to you know and I can that be like version [TS]

  too often a different places like sure you know yeah I'm actually I'm sure that [TS]

  will happen with almost all of these where they will make they will start out [TS]

  with a pair of bootstrap it and then they'll have their own light clean nice [TS]

  new API but the Google Reader API is probably gonna be the standard if there [TS]

  is one like you know right now it was really easy to make an RSS happen last [TS]

  year's because all you had [TS]

  to do was give people Google Reader username password fields online login [TS]

  that was it now I think we're gonna basically see a third field being added [TS]

  to that which is like hostname [TS]

  like whatever whatever service you are using the API type in the hostname here [TS]

  and then type in your password for any thoughts you boxes I think that's that's [TS]

  the easiest way forward for the clients and so if that is the outcome if that's [TS]

  what you know assume assume we have like multiple multiple services that spring [TS]

  up there gonna be like this that are going to replace Google Reader and get [TS]

  some popularity if that's the case none of them will have the leverage to make a [TS]

  new API Google Reader likely be stuck with it [TS]

  just look at the declines have already written all the code for it you know why [TS]

  why would I rewrite my client new fancy but I've already got my client working [TS]

  with red is working with it for five years now whatever you know why would I [TS]

  change of our new API's cleaner for new development you get those guys on board [TS]

  but like thats I think that would be a shame because like I said it's not like [TS]

  people saying Google Reader is the most awesome API for sinking and you know [TS]

  keeping track of stuff maybe not so awesome as a funny side borrow one of [TS]

  the weird little projects I did a tumblr was back back before before Twitter [TS]

  bought Tweetie from Arbor 21 its own app and everyone loved it there is one of [TS]

  the very advanced settings fields was API hostname and you could type in any [TS]

  host name there and it would it would use that as the basis of all the Twitter [TS]

  API URLs so I wrote the Twitter API for tumblr enough of it so that you can [TS]

  browse tumblr into et just using this field to say like forever and it was it [TS]

  was it was interesting was it again like him like you got this whole app kind of [TS]

  for free by just making burgers mirroring enough of Twitter's API to [TS]

  make this work that's why that's why I'm saying like that RSS like not that it's [TS]

  inadequate but that [TS]

  it's just a piece of the puzzle be like our RSS RSS and Atom our standards for [TS]

  do representation but they're they're not they don't help you with the art so [TS]

  what about you might have an API that is efficient and can give you [TS]

  synchronization information like that would have to be a layer on top of it [TS]

  and then that larry is that ok with that [TS]

  defacto that is the Google Reader API because that's the most climax ran [TS]

  against it and it's you know is the only player in town and it was free in like [TS]

  an hour now that's our middle layer and you know it would be nicer if there was [TS]

  a similarly open standard like RSS or Atom to fill that role that wasn't just [TS]

  like the the leftover droppings of a company that was once vaguely interested [TS]

  in the business lost interest [TS]

  yeah and and it's also worth speculating on why did this little bit more I just [TS]

  thought of a new theory now I think the real reason they shut it down is because [TS]

  I've heard from various people over the last couple of months as we start to see [TS]

  problems I've heard that the staff assigned to work on Google Reader was [TS]

  basically between 0 and three people do you believe in how you measure so I've [TS]

  heard it had basically nobody working on it and so member it had it had a pretty [TS]

  bad outings like a week or two ago something like that I'm guessing what [TS]

  happened was it was working fine for a long time and then things started to [TS]

  break and when things started to break a few weeks ago whenever that was nobody [TS]

  had a fix it code for years and so that's probably what made you decide you [TS]

  know what this is just easier to kill them to fix because it's not giving us [TS]

  enough value might as well just kill it rather than maintaining the real reason [TS]

  but it's worth considering one conspiracy I think like crazy reason is [TS]

  when you're reading RSS you're not going to people's websites and seeing [TS]

  ads as I mean things they don't like about from a business perspective [TS]

  business reason that you can think to get rid of this thing is like look if [TS]

  only they know these numbers but how many people are using it as an API that [TS]

  they never see like how many people using apps like reader and that is why [TS]

  we never and never see a single one of our ads because all they like it's just [TS]

  an API back at all we're doing is providing computing horsepower and [TS]

  uptime for them for 30 benefit and never Sierra the people on the web interface [TS]

  they can show them as they can you know harvest their interests and you know [TS]

  it's just like Gmail like if everybody use the web interface and if that [TS]

  everybody was a much larger number than it currently is it would still be around [TS]

  but from a business perspective i think im very large number of people don't use [TS]

  the web interface and the total sum of all Google Reader uses so much more than [TS]

  like this gmail user base or whatever that it just doesn't make any sense to [TS]

  keep it right and to that end if you're going to replace Google Reader why would [TS]

  you get into that business of the whole point of the businesses was t it is to [TS]

  use third-party clients and I guess this comes back tapped out an ad in the ideas [TS]

  well you have super nerds that are affluent enough that they'll be able to [TS]

  spare few bucks a month to pay for it or node 50 bucks a year whatever the number [TS]

  maybe but I wouldn't want to get into that business that seems to get back to [TS]

  grouper with this 400,000 RSS subscribers that's how he makes money [TS]

  from a site you nobody has one of the ways he he sells RSS sponsorships and [TS]

  you get to your sponsoring the RSS feed which thing that the customers mornin [TS]

  I'm pretty sure the answer to both of those are in the RSS feed as well right [TS]

  so if you if you control the RSS feeds you can certain tannen to RSS feeds all [TS]

  the people there are maybe that maybe that model does not work and people hate [TS]

  it but you know the apt 9 a.m. I'll certainly more direct passed a little [TS]

  bit and you get to use their synchronization service and now wherever [TS]

  you read you know like that could be that service I don't think it's quite [TS]

  designer for this thing exactly about you know that's the question of like [TS]

  okay so Google was subsidizing a result profitable business like an order search [TS]

  revenue like that they were doing is more or less out of the goodness of [TS]

  their own heart [TS]

  higher-level not quite i mean they they want to have access to all the world's [TS]

  information and and this and a lot of information flows through RSS 2.0 feed [TS]

  burner 47 fever is more of an ad by but you know I I think it made sense why [TS]

  they started this in the first place [TS]

  didn't even when they bought feel very though it's like i don't think anyone to [TS]

  Google had any any notion that RSS was going to grow tremendously from the [TS]

  point where they bought it and it hasn't and the point where they bought it [TS]

  already wasn't like everything was it was big among nerds but it was never [TS]

  like this the growth curve was never never never any illusions it was gonna [TS]

  take off like Facebook or Twitter was no hockey stick curb at the time that they [TS]

  bought into it maybe they wanted to have it just because like there's no sense in [TS]

  other people in other people having this thing and people spending time elsewhere [TS]

  and maybe like the long-term evil plan is alright we gotta get this because it [TS]

  is a thing is not a big thing is not gonna grow but we need to get it so we [TS]

  can just kind of quietly put it to sleep which is you know the rap on Google when [TS]

  they buy companies you know John Cooper you know I don't name names of the [TS]

  companies that Google is bought that it kind of like faded away you never really [TS]

  hear about them again or the you know or are they just don't improve rapidly or [TS]

  they just you know it's like if it's on Google's umbrella they have the option [TS]

  to to let it go live up on a farm upstate whenever they feel like it right [TS]

  i think i mean first of all there's a big problem here but it's kind of a mean [TS]

  this this has a lot of parallels to win more controversial things but you know [TS]

  what they did really and I don't think they I don't think they plan to this but [TS]

  what happened was a Google Reader came out and destroyed a very big market of [TS]

  desktop RSS readers and web Google just came in and destroyed it was free and it [TS]

  synced and none of the things did at the time and they destroyed and they held on [TS]

  to that market for eight years and now they're killing it now but now you know [TS]

  I think one has to wonder how did they destroy the market for the desktop app [TS]

  apps like how do they make it so it's no longer viable to sell the absolute they [TS]

  definitely destroy the services like NewsGator newsletter is trying to tell [TS]

  you [TS]

  synchronization services but a desktop out i mean what they did to the desktop [TS]

  apps on iOS apps even more insidious didn't destroy them they just made it so [TS]

  that you know they were the only game in town for a thing that those people [TS]

  needed but didn't wanna write well as writing you know and so now all the [TS]

  clients not reader uses Google Reader newswire uses Google Reader and all this [TS]

  you know all these things use Google Reader is this the only game in town and [TS]

  now they're hooked onto the strain the Google is not always kind of mad at [TS]

  anybody so it wasn't the sync engine that killed the stock lines it was the [TS]

  web interface it was it was making it making RSS reading free so you think [TS]

  that took people away people stop buying a newswire as they could just go to the [TS]

  Google Reader website absolutely definitely I disagree I completed not [TS]

  people but I will tell you I can guarantee you there was another gonna [TS]

  guess like who would we go to to get that information like we could google [TS]

  presumably knows how many people use 32 over the lifetime they could show that [TS]

  growth sure I guess brent controls the growth curve like sales newswire it with [TS]

  his deal with the NewsGator but I can tell you i mean just haven't lived [TS]

  through that anecdotally I saw that happen I saw I saw many artists clients [TS]

  just give up and die and the few that were left with a ones integrated Google [TS]

  Reader like you had I gave a resurgence yeah it wasn't like Google reader's [TS]

  website went away and in fact I believe it worked reasonably well on mobile from [TS]

  from as early as anything more than a resurgence in suddenly like things like [TS]

  reader what a creature of violence like they wouldn't have it was not newswire [TS]

  was sitting there as the once once and possibly not future king of desktop [TS]

  reader market and people were not clamoring to rear applications but it is [TS]

  the iPhone launch now everyone wants to write a news reader applications across [TS]

  all talking to you the reader you some idea of you readers dominance right now [TS]

  I I put my feed stats and [TS]

  ninety percent of subscribers to my feed are subscribed via Google Reader sank [TS]

  like that's how big this is ninety percent of my my subscribers and then [TS]

  like there's like I have a hundred web interface right no they don't they don't [TS]

  distinguish but you know that give you some idea like if this service shuts [TS]

  down not only is it is leaving a gaping hole in the in the RSS Inc business but [TS]

  this could have a massive impact on the readership of websites like I can also [TS]

  boost their ad impressions eventually have to go to the website maybe but like [TS]

  one of the reasons are so great is because it allows you to very easily [TS]

  follow sites that don't update frequently enough you a check every day [TS]

  so before our staff came out if you had a blog posted once a month [TS]

  nobody would read it and post every day so that people would go to your site [TS]

  everyday and check for new stuff and a lot of people as someone who has a [TS]

  website that posts not once a month of people still generally yes but there's a [TS]

  great power of RSS is allowing you enabling you to follow a whole bunch of [TS]

  sites that update infrequently and be and doing that in a manageable way so [TS]

  because it's so easy to read them then those who had written frequently they [TS]

  have better audiences they have more reach their more influential even if [TS]

  they don't write every day and you can get some of that value now from Twitter [TS]

  Facebook and all these other crappy services please in OKC but there's still [TS]

  so much of that happening on RSS as you can tell by you know stats from me and [TS]

  group or anybody else a ton of that activity as an RSS so [TS]

  I think it could be really disruptive come July when the shutdown and sites [TS]

  like mine and groupers and other people who have like heavy RSS readership in [TS]

  the geeky spaces sites like this we could see major shifts in in either [TS]

  direction huh sure we could see major shifts and how people read our sites and [TS]

  you'll be able to tell the month leading up I guess I think my Google reader [TS]

  supports a little subscriber numbers in long lines and everything like if those [TS]

  people disperse I don't know if all the other things they dispersed to identify [TS]

  themselves in such a nice convenient way so it may be difficult to like counting [TS]

  RSS subscribers is different than counting all you can eat there is like [TS]

  someone decided this was more than enough to put in their feet and when I [TS]

  make something new on the site [TS]

  their little feet thing becomes bold presuming they even look at their little [TS]

  feet thing which is not you know like this four hundred thousand Google Reader [TS]

  subscribers you know how many of them actually going to look at that feed in [TS]

  maybe people have stopped using google reader on but Google Reader will keep [TS]

  hitting their site right and counting them as a you know it's part of their [TS]

  subscription I'm not sure I'd like I'm not sure how long they will do that for [TS]

  him whether it's mothers do indefinitely so like maybe the numbers are any from [TS]

  reading your site anymore or whether they like have some kind of timeout [TS]

  period where they stopped counting you after a while of not looking at reader [TS]

  I'm not really sure I like Twitter followers I mean how many human beings [TS]

  who ever heard used within the last year and how many people are just people who [TS]

  followed you and they joined Twitter for three days three years ago and you know [TS]

  are not there anymore [TS]

  web stats in viewership things are always kind of food do but Google Reader [TS]

  at least gave some sort of unification to the budu in like you know you love it [TS]

  summarizes it for you it's measured the same way as everybody's using it ninety [TS]

  percent of your subscribers anyway so now we that that's going to become much [TS]

  fuzzier even even if every single one of those people who was actually rehearse I [TS]

  continues to how you to be able to detect them and track them and confirmed [TS]

  yourself that's the case is probably going to be difficult so you're [TS]

  begrudging [TS]

  the disappearance of Google the all seen eye because it doesn't like to see [TS]

  everything grudging I'm just as strange scenario is strange situation we found [TS]

  ourselves I mean this is what happens when it when a company you know I mean [TS]

  microsoft word to your company with some profitable business can use that profit [TS]

  to subsidize other businesses that its speculating into MIT these may or may [TS]

  not be things that we want to get into you know and I guess I think we will [TS]

  never had any illusions RSS was going to do a hockey stick but it's like my house [TS]

  worth worth keeping our eye on and we should buy everything up that has [TS]

  anything to do with it so that we can some said it was Marcus david Turner [TS]

  when we feel like it ended like now is the time of your life and you know it [TS]

  was easy because they are you had all that web crawling infrastructure in [TS]

  place that they could use so it was easier for them to do it then it would [TS]

  be for anyone else to do it or not not so much like because that's that's where [TS]

  the that's their muscle that's you know their companies built on we can put up [TS]

  services on the internet that scale to any number of people including the [TS]

  entire internet like our storage does and our whole business is built around [TS]

  like we have we all section the company just works on infrastructure constantly [TS]

  improving it and sort of it helps every service that we do that's why whenever [TS]

  the bar start to like okay I don't care what you're doing before it's time to [TS]

  get things we know what they were doing and even though our way seems crazy to [TS]

  you let me tell you that you should rewrite travelgate indiscretion top of [TS]

  our infrastructure which will delay your business for years and by the time [TS]

  you're done maybe no monster product anymore but we're not gonna let you keep [TS]

  running your crazy PHP Ruby thing here if we can help it because you really [TS]

  need to get with the program and because our program is pretty damn good whereas [TS]

  other random companies you know you're starting from scratch or even if you're [TS]

  some other big companies like Microsoft is trying to get some days and expertise [TS]

  and an apple and like they just none of those companies dedicated maybe Amazon [TS]

  is the only other one that dedicates proportional to the same amount of [TS]

  resources about we need to get our crap together service I because it's an [TS]

  essential part of our business yeah I know we sell things but you know where [TS]

  these me to come from well as you want to sell things better and hey that's a [TS]

  marketable service yesterday and all those things and i think is the only [TS]

  competitor who has the kind of expertise in scale and I think they're still much [TS]

  more sort of slapped together evolved over a long period of time under [TS]

  tremendous pressure with a crazy man with a weapon at their back versus sort [TS]

  of Google's philosophical PHD's algorithmic strategy for indexing the [TS]

  entire web anyway I don't know I mean that that kind of blew a lot of other [TS]

  stuff that was being talked about me I guess we have a new pope and we now have [TS]

  one less hard cast network but otherwise I don't know what's happening in the [TS]

  world of technology market don't talk about South by Southwest come on my god [TS]

  veteran of that are a number of tons of useful and insightful things to say I'm [TS]

  so happy I didn't go this year before this or I think the year before that [TS]

  that's a bold face lie cuz you're missing out on Salt Lake man I surprise [TS]

  how are in the whole conference thing of it what it what a mess that is like it [TS]

  first of all what that's worth talking briefly i think is Google i/o tickets [TS]

  went on sale this morning and as usual sold out very very quickly and there are [TS]

  lots of like I saw our friendship own complaining about duplicate transaction [TS]

  logs that it did not sell out gracefully but it did so I quickly and and you know [TS]

  we see with that we see with WBC selling out not that quickly but at least still [TS]

  very quickly every year and there's an issue in question what do you really do [TS]

  about that like what what can you do about that problem and because you don't [TS]

  have any state tickets are gonna they're gonna come on sale and we don't know you [TS]

  know it could be anytime between now and late May that they will probably make [TS]

  tickets available for the immediacy of this year and we don't know and probably [TS]

  gonna sell out within a half hour 45 minutes [TS]

  Apple has tried different things you know different polarizations of like to [TS]

  have these Tech Talks around around the country will become a mini WDC [TS]

  country and you can get a ticket to those if you haven't gone to WTC [TS]

  recently so this kind of a priority thing where if you get a lot out of one [TS]

  you can go to the other but you know they they still have this problem of [TS]

  there's just way more demand than there is supply of tickets and in you know [TS]

  they can do the typical economic thing of just raised the price really high [TS]

  because that would kind of make them look like dicks and that they would get [TS]

  a lot of flak for that it would be worth it and like Google is making the problem [TS]

  worse because Google i/o tickets it's becoming a pattern that Google gives [TS]

  everyone free hardware at their devices that's usually worth about as much as [TS]

  the ticket price looks like 900 bucks so like a lot of the people buying as [TS]

  Google tickets are probably just wanting the free hardware and not really giving [TS]

  a crap about the conference and so that's kinda like that i think is a [TS]

  really bad thing for group for Google to be doing what they should probably stop [TS]

  to think what what do you think Apple could do to reduce demand for WC or to [TS]

  make it to make itself out less quickly or do you think the evening to solve [TS]

  this problem is one thing they could do that like you talk about raising the [TS]

  prices being seen as a dick move well this is also kind of a dick move but [TS]

  it's one with economic precedent and its letter last as they can just do it [TS]

  airlines doing over book and the reason I think this will work out with them is [TS]

  that except for the keynote which I maybe maybe including keynote like you [TS]

  see how the herd thins out as head start to come into effect and it's been far [TS]

  even just like late in the day when people are just like going on fumes and [TS]

  they just they just cant you know going in more I think you could probably over [TS]

  any maybe this fire codes and stuff like that or whatever but that they're [TS]

  limiting them but I think you could over book it and with the exception of a few [TS]

  choke points [TS]

  continue to be OK because really with the exception of like I know this [TS]

  because I'm I'm there in every session like a crazy person you know [TS]

  most people are not really things out it during certain points and so I feel like [TS]

  they hit that's one way to get around the city somewhere tickets you know so [TS]

  well as many tickets as he even if you think it's gonna be crazy that I don't [TS]

  want to be like the classroom sizes are gonna be to join whenever I think it [TS]

  will still work out because those rooms are not a capacity in the middle of the [TS]

  week and some boring session as you know I don't know why I think you could [TS]

  probably get maybe 20% more tickets sold that way not even more that somethin but [TS]

  because I'm not saying this is gonna be a doubling in size is just over the [TS]

  problem is that the the the popular or mainstream sessions really are filled up [TS]

  to capacity and a lot of time and they do not have to wait on line for you know [TS]

  twenty minutes or a half hour before the session starts and you get in there and [TS]

  you can't even sit down and there's like only standing room of people backing up [TS]

  in the back like 10 sessions like that and they duplicate them they're they're [TS]

  addressing that was like the other one son on one day and then once I get two [TS]

  days later whatever like this is all in service of not doing the things out by [TS]

  Southwest Division I always keep going to bigger bigger venues like it that way [TS]

  across the entire city right so you know you can't are just going to like even [TS]

  bigger Convention Center in a different city and just get bigger and bigger but [TS]

  can you can you get something out of the can you do something to improve things [TS]

  keeping the same conference center and everything I think you can get a little [TS]

  bit more about our booking and wonder you know this year maybe just some [TS]

  paying attention but I don't think so I think this is actually happening this [TS]

  year it seems like Apple pessimism is at an all-time high of just the company's [TS]

  prospects that the effect of competition but rather the people who go to WWE see [TS]

  right now [TS]

  matter people who are selling popular apps in the App Store me da is probably [TS]

  still pretty darn bullish about iOS in terms of money to make money in terms of [TS]

  you know how much money do we put into this game and how much do we get out [TS]

  keep making the games he say that but it's funny I would agree with you Marco [TS]

  that I've had regular people who are not total dweeb like us come to me and say [TS]

  yes [TS]

  from getting iPhone again when I'm up for a new phone cuz haven't done [TS]

  anything new in awhile yeah you know if your nerd you can say well what we [TS]

  haven't done anything new but to a regular person I mean springboard looks [TS]

  the same as always looked most of these apps mostly Liu Rui button is a UIButton [TS]

  ey labels label all these things look the same table visa tableview granted [TS]

  you have collection views now and haven't seen them use that much come to [TS]

  think of it but it doesn't look flashy anymore and maybe Iowa 71 could do I i [TS]

  dont know I completely agree I'm not saying is I think like you I wouldn't do [TS]

  it the same be able to be like still like a rectangle the screen like us are [TS]

  hovering above the desk by two inches like well there's there's there's [TS]

  there's like the the people who write for The Verge who knows they're never [TS]

  gonna be happy with whatever Apple does that go or actually the writers are good [TS]

  the commenters on the verge are never going to be happy with whatever Apple [TS]

  does its new because they're gonna complain no its not like Android [TS]

  incentive enough in that segment they would they can't satisfy but like Casey [TS]

  I have regular people asking me all the time or talking all the time about about [TS]

  comments that make it sound like all this Apple skepticism in the media [TS]

  actually reflects what they are thinking like it there is no question that [TS]

  Apple's being significantly and severely affected by the attention in the media [TS]

  that it gets and negatively I mean really I have regular people sit like [TS]

  even a week ago I had somebody asked me how I think my getting an iPhone but I [TS]

  heard the iPhone 5s is coming out next month so in a way like I here and every [TS]

  day of course every iPhone but like what you hear like you know they didn't [TS]

  change that much Michael have you seen the iPhone 5 believe me it's a big [TS]

  difference the people I even giving it a shot because they're they're hearing in [TS]

  the media and on the news on the website and everything they're hearing all the [TS]

  stuff about Apple being doomed and not innovating enough I hear regular people [TS]

  have asked me about Samsung for the first time ever in the last six months [TS]

  I've never heard anybody else with Samsung in the last six months I'm now [TS]

  hearing [TS]

  and I think Apple's doing greed but the mainstream culture and the mainstream [TS]

  and rhetoric around Apple is now that they're suffering and that's really [TS]

  damaging them no question so I think there's only two things they could do to [TS]

  to get the regular people ignoring the echo chamber people who don't even know [TS]

  what the verges to get those people who still might come up there and change too [TS]

  much what can you do to bring them home cuz I think like outside outside of the [TS]

  tech nerd circles like there definitely is a medium that perception everything [TS]

  better but like it when someone who doesn't even remember that Apple makes [TS]

  the iPhone or just kind of big windows with the iPhone does when they get the [TS]

  news story like I'm their local news or whatever that there are some problems [TS]

  that's when I start to get this bad feelings what can you do to bring those [TS]

  people out you can't do with new OS overall because no matter how crazy you [TS]

  change springboard about how weird you make things look those people are never [TS]

  going to know that's not how the phone always looked like they don't have [TS]

  compared to that does not impress them that nothing you can get them he thereby [TS]

  making a new product that gets people excited about Apple again [TS]

  insert whatever product you on your television watched her board you know [TS]

  self-driving car space ship anything like that automatically those people [TS]

  like Apple's back at some crazy new thing blah blah blah suddenly the iPhone [TS]

  seems viable again I wouldn't bank on that happening in the capital banking on [TS]

  that happening to get themselves in the second thing I think what actually work [TS]

  and they probably are going to be doing is just make it a big screen damage is [TS]

  damage that sounds internet done that is has a big screen but done that like [TS]

  before you aren't excited about it but now you now you are that is enough of a [TS]

  change that a regular person has its bigger the regular programming notice [TS]

  that change again not that I'm saying a big screen is not a good idea cuz I [TS]

  think it is a good idea but I think that is the type of change [TS]

  far beyond like a radical new UI or something like that that you put on the [TS]

  phone which is much harder to do bigger screen I think can revitalize interest [TS]

  in [TS]

  in the iPhone biggest gainers lower-cost a combination of the two because I mean [TS]

  Apple is behind the screen size wars and we talked about this last time of the [TS]

  resolution of the stuff what they gonna do in that area but those are technical [TS]

  details just bottom line is he someone you know when the Samsung s4 comes out [TS]

  tomorrow whatever day it is going to be the new Galaxy phone its gonna have a [TS]

  big amazing screen there's going to be bigger and more amazing her than the [TS]

  iPhone 5 screen and regular people can see that they look at the iPhone 5 they [TS]

  look at that on the phone and this label that's that's more and more of what they [TS]

  want it looks better looks like Android phones that you know the big thing now [TS]

  is it you know [TS]

  native 1080p 120 like four hundred and sixty dpi or something [TS]

  these are fairly amazing screens they're still pretty ninth in and yes they're [TS]

  much bigger and heavier but like that's what I was up against here I think to [TS]

  revitalize interest in its phone line in particular it's going to have to answer [TS]

  to that and I think that's pretty much all take to get people the ball back [TS]

  rolling on that and then their longer-term problem is you know what's [TS]

  that I speak thing and I kinda figured that out there can do with TVs or [TS]

  watches are however Karzai whatever that's a wonder I wonder a little bit if [TS]

  some of this problem is self created in the sense that you know john even [TS]

  talking for a long time about how poor Apple is at services and if you think [TS]

  about it you know well as Siri was a brand new thing and it was supposed to [TS]

  be amazing and it was supposed to cure all of our problems and it ended up [TS]

  being fraught with problems and it was kind of a disaster but I think I was [TS]

  successful in terms of getting people interested in its that phone you can [TS]

  talk even to people bought it [TS]

  talk to it on the first day played with it and then stopped using it because [TS]

  it's quite alright I it has served its purpose that point I think people come [TS]

  out of it with a generally positive like it's a positive experience I heard this [TS]

  is fun you can talk to I bought this phone you can talk to me my friends at [TS]

  all areas two days talking to it now I don't use anymore but I'm not sore about [TS]

  it like I think basically I think syria with a net positive for the iOS platform [TS]

  in the iPhone in general [TS]

  but but it started positive it may or may not have been deposited yet Apple [TS]

  maps which nobody nobody I mean obviously as nerds we understand kind of [TS]

  the political motivations behind all this but for a regular human you didn't [TS]

  want it in the first place [TS]

  suddenly your phone which you previously loved one of the critical aspects of [TS]

  this phone now socks and you didn't even ask for it and that's why you know I was [TS]

  6 adoption from most reports I've looked at david smith's in awhile but you know [TS]

  I was 6 adoption was terrible and so the Google Maps app came out well [TS]

  negative perception certainly in a lot of people holding back but in the grand [TS]

  scheme of things it was it was minimal and it hurt them PR was way more than [TS]

  hurt I was 6 adoption rates I think this is another example of like the positive [TS]

  a Syrian and eventually like it's like man you leave it and this was an initial [TS]

  negative but I think the same phenomena happened in initial negative instead of [TS]

  initial positive but eventually it's like like and now I think by people [TS]

  buying phones like its transition that hurts its transition you know like you [TS]

  know or helps you in the history of the transition to series like wow amazing [TS]

  thing and this helped Apple get people into stores cause people to buy it and [TS]

  then it was fun [TS]

  the transition from you know that a bad thing suddenly this isn't a bad thing [TS]

  and maps are bad and they're going from the maps that were better to the bad [TS]

  ones are just I'm getting bad ones but that trickled off to an anyone buying a [TS]

  phone now you know even though that Apple maps are still not as good as [TS]

  Google Maps is kind of like oh this is just the maps my phone came with and if [TS]

  I don't like them I can try the Google one and you know what's the big deal [TS]

  right so I think maybe those two things cancel each other out but I think going [TS]

  forward neither one of them are a factor except for maybe reputation whisenand [TS]

  nerds I I think like they've they've cleared they cleared the PR disaster [TS]

  maps and Iran to like now that you know we got to see what the next thing is are [TS]

  we gonna have something that's going to be a big negative a big positive they [TS]

  need something for the next phone other than just like it's faster slightly but [TS]

  I know I'm not really sure that anything to do with the next iPhone although I do [TS]

  agree that they need to make screen bigger for at least one of the models [TS]

  are they so [TS]

  just excited to see you know I'm not I'm not entirely sold on the cheaper one [TS]

  idea although we should talk about two and a half you saw so I've been talking [TS]

  about the the the weird new CPU and the Apple TV that was just released updated [TS]

  quietly and shippers has post here up it into our chat thing so that you can see [TS]

  it had a post up that they've been taking apart the CPU and it and they [TS]

  found to my original theory we should talk about it I believe in episode one [TS]

  of the show my original theory was that what you know is originally we thought [TS]

  that they were died shrinking the 85 acts and there's really no good reason [TS]

  for the Apple TV is a need in a five acts yet maybe if they have future model [TS]

  that can do high end games maybe then ok but there was really no good reason for [TS]

  10 if I backs we later found out a couple days ago we found out that it is [TS]

  indeed not an A five experts it's an A five that is somehow a lot smaller than [TS]

  the normally five package show again we speculated ok to die shrink so what we [TS]

  gonna do with the new 85 cause the Apple TV doesn't have an Apple TVs to justify [TS]

  making a whole separate processor for it so now the the most recent news that we [TS]

  have is that the processor and new Apple TV is indeed still in a five is [TS]

  substantially smaller than the regular a five but the reason why is his only has [TS]

  one CPU core instead of two it's still the same process the believe it's a 32 [TS]

  nanometer process from Samsung so it still has a manufacturing process just [TS]

  now is only one coroner chip now before with the Apple TV I believe didn't we [TS]

  say they were they were like burning out one course whether it failed by just [TS]

  perfect sense because by the by the time they've been manufacturing do crossword [TS]

  for a five social long time the number of ones that are bomb that have one bad [TS]

  karma them down now has got to be pretty darn low I mean I guess the question of [TS]

  like where they just you know it's inefficient use of the ones that weren't [TS]

  where one car doesn't work rather they are they literally taking them in and [TS]

  and you know burning the fuse is out on the one on one of the course if it was [TS]

  the case that they were trying to get things that one court didn't work [TS]

  presumably the number of those has dwindled now because they really you [TS]

  know they've been making the ship forever so many more like leftovers for [TS]

  it but given how few Apple TVs they sell it would probably still be cheaper to [TS]

  just give him dual core working chips than it would be to make a separate I'm [TS]

  looking at this was the whole reason why the AppleTV CPU changes interesting is [TS]

  the theory that they make so few of these it doesn't justify a custom CPU so [TS]

  therefore whatever CPU they're using in this is probably gonna be put into a [TS]

  future more popular product and so that's that's I think we're considering [TS]

  like what could they make with a small single core a five and that to me [TS]

  screams low-end iPhone or low and iPad Mini I suppose it's possible it's really [TS]

  tough to tell because it's not it's not Herculean effort to and they have been [TS]

  so Mr Apple TV soap making you sing of Corey five just for the Apple tea is not [TS]

  is not crazy crazy they really have been increasing number of these things that [TS]

  they sell and especially if they're whatever they're crazy Grand TV plan it [TS]

  keeps getting pushed off into the future for you know presumably content related [TS]

  reasons that there may be just playing for the future of the Apple TV and [TS]

  unlike the other things that run apps and stuff there's no real reason that [TS]

  year after year the Apple TV has to get tremendously faster or they finally got [TS]

  up to 1080p like what more does it need to do like it shows video in 1080p you [TS]

  can't run apps on it it could be there selling in for the long winter waiting [TS]

  for whatever the heck you know and they want to continue to you know have sixty [TS]

  percent year-over-year growth on the Apple TV or whatever they were happy for [TS]

  their selling a not insignificant number these things maybe now it deserves its [TS]

  own chip not a big deal chip just a single for a five single Corey 544 a [TS]

  cheaper phone I'm wondering how much cheaper does that make it because the [TS]

  cost of a single core fibers dual [TS]

  comes down to the area of the check out and like the big cost components in that [TS]

  things like I have to imagine like the screen the battery the CPU GPU and the [TS]

  case are your big cost components there I'm not sure how much shaving a tiny [TS]

  little bit of cost on the CPU is gonna lie is not going to get you over the [TS]

  line in terms of low-cost [TS]

  I'm not sure I'm not alone but you know if you can shave X percent off of a lot [TS]

  of the key components then that I was gonna say in aggregate in my piano it's [TS]

  conceivable I mean like do we think that the single-core if I was sure other than [TS]

  a low-cost phone I mean motion is not multithreaded so we can kind of look and [TS]

  see a torrid pace for animation is multithreaded ok but most of the things [TS]

  that are releasing that absurd doing for the most part I think we'd be fine with [TS]

  single core for a low end product I think if you look at you know if they're [TS]

  trying to shave off dollars and cents here to try to get down to lower price [TS]

  points for surviving the iPad Mini is probably the more obvious choice here [TS]

  than an iPhone just because the iPhones are still subsidized in most markets so [TS]

  they have more room to play with their wares the iPad Mini it they want to get [TS]

  that down she ended a five is probably even with this with the smaller version [TS]

  I would imagine a five is probably still too much power [TS]

  GB using something like a watch I I don't think that would work but I think [TS]

  it will be fine as a low-end model 44 even the iPhone or the iPad I'll see you [TS]

  think like the iPad Mini I have problems here too because like again I think of [TS]

  you know if they want to push you want to push to have any price down to give [TS]

  an even lower price one where are they going to get where else they gonna pull [TS]

  value out of that cheaper cameras slightly cheaper CPU they can't really [TS]

  give it less battery they can't rely on the contrary if they only have one CPU [TS]

  core they can give it a little bit better [TS]

  like I have I have it easier time thinking that you could shave down a [TS]

  phone because it's it's subsidized that you know that you could you could work [TS]

  it out so that it ends up looking way cheaper to the customer you just have a [TS]

  little bit of cost maybe martin slow I'm not sure how much you can squeeze the [TS]

  many with a single Corey 5 it and I'm also not sure that I've never wants to [TS]

  take any of its products and go backwards in terms of performance you [TS]

  know so can I prove those two alternate theories one of which i think is [TS]

  ridiculous and other i think is marginally ridiculous 24 interrupt you [TS]

  that's probably true so one of the means what if the whole point of this and and [TS]

  one of you guys just inferred it a second ago what is the point of this [TS]

  this chip is physically smaller Zanotti so the whole point was one of the whole [TS]

  point was either to increase battery volume in the same size case or [TS]

  alternatively what if we are finally getting our iPhone Nano that we've we [TS]

  used to talk about constantly and then gave up on if you really want to space [TS]

  back to you you just ranked 29 metres or get in till 2022 space back that's the [TS]

  way to do it you don't get your car and stick the 32 like it if space but you [TS]

  know I'm more inclined to believe the cost is the reason that you take a 32 [TS]

  nanometer process that you already have your manufacturers are now have a lot of [TS]

  experience with really good yields not pushing the limits of technology to give [TS]

  me one of the little bit cheaper but if you run into space back if you want to [TS]

  drive by 49 or something you did you get this much easier to get that space but [TS]

  going through a process I mean this [TS]

  20 nanometers seems like it's in the cards for 2013 for Apple products from [TS]

  you know Taiwan Semiconductor or whoever they gonna do that and if the Intel [TS]

  things come through maybe that's not going to happen this year maybe next [TS]

  year but if that isn't just a pipe dream but I think that's the way it space back [TS]

  will you see that that's the easiest way to get space back but it's also more [TS]

  expensive way to get space back is not right but it's a it's an expensive [TS]

  anyway like it's not like you're gonna stick it there [TS]

  forever like that the train is going along and like this is the year that [TS]

  were Apple all the other phone manufacturers are already at 28 or lower [TS]

  the Android big Android guys already have phones that you know I have 20 [TS]

  nanometers quad-core things with 1080p screens on them like they're they're [TS]

  outclassing Apple hardware in all respects with the exception of power [TS]

  consumption but they make up for it by having a bigger battery because they [TS]

  have bigger screens right so you know it it's gonna happen anyway Apple's gonna [TS]

  have to make the transition if you gonna do that you wait to put out your iPhone [TS]

  Nano until all your components shrink down and I believe also like shrinking [TS]

  we always talk about the CPUs and GPUs as well and whatever other components [TS]

  inside there not many but there are other ones and some of them I think [TS]

  Anandtech had a good article about the the process used for the cell radios [TS]

  which are limited by their various analog things that go into them but [TS]

  those could stand to be mean that's what you know the first LTE chipsets were not [TS]

  great and sucked up a lot of battery there are other places where you can get [TS]

  some savings by shrinks or just you know even if you had a 20 nanometers CPU of [TS]

  all the rest of your chips are family like 45 are 65 or some crazy size that [TS]

  can make you said as well so there's no bring bring all the internal components [TS]

  of your mobile thing along on a train of continual process shrinks I think you [TS]

  can get to your iPhone Nano with that technique and that's this may be the [TS]

  only way you can get there because otherwise if you just take the internal [TS]

  exile like there's a lot of room left over in the iPhone 5 as it is and just [TS]

  shrinking the screen is not going to have any that's going to hurt you if [TS]

  you're in for a battery in there so I'm not sure the iPhone that it was a [TS]

  concept really makes much sense and if it does I think they'll get there by [TS]

  shrinking not by chopping of course thing to like just demand might not [TS]

  really be there for that I mean people want their smartphone screens to be big [TS]

  and I think I think the any Apple will very well address the marketing people [TS]

  who want to keep it smart phones small with the regular sized iPhone and and I [TS]

  really don't think they're gonna go big only in the product line but I don't [TS]

  think they have to go smaller than the iPhone 5 size really I think they might [TS]

  go [TS]

  a big only I cannot see the iPhone sex having a larger screen than the five and [TS]

  then not offering a small one except for spy still selling the iPhone 5s well the [TS]

  only reason they could the only way they could do that I think would be if the [TS]

  screen was bigger but not like a ton bigger and I'm not expecting that make [TS]

  phablet will but but the problem is if they don't really make a substantial [TS]

  jump that it's not gonna really served him very well in the reasons why they [TS]

  should be the big screen in the first place it's not gonna really stand up [TS]

  well in a store next to these giant Android phones it's not gonna [TS]

  potentially replace the need for an iPad for some people are at least they they [TS]

  would think that they would buy that it would stand up better in the store just [TS]

  a little bit bigger I mean is the question we talked about last week it's [TS]

  like you just make it bigger the same res which is what we also I believe that [TS]

  we completely adequate to give them the boost they need of having something [TS]

  bigger or do you bite the bullet and actually you know whether it's 1080p or [TS]

  pick a new canonical Rezko's about the Hindu konaga residents with the iPad I [TS]

  guarantee you'll do it again sometime in the history of iOS you know before the [TS]

  company goes out of business and heat death of the universe there will be new [TS]

  resolution besides you know 1024 by 768 points and 15 phone is a need to do with [TS]

  the iPhone 5 as well like that will happen is just a question of when the [TS]

  question now is it too soon they just went off on it too soon to that the way [TS]

  generation to pump it out again but that's going to happen and I i could see [TS]

  them doing that sooner rather than later if they start feeling the pinch ya but [TS]

  if they only make one size iPhone then like a magic pill made one size laptop [TS]

  like what size would that be probably 13 right and then then you'll do you miss [TS]

  out on the great value of the 15 in the 1100 if you look at the phones like if [TS]

  they're gonna keep having just one model for the foreseeable future after make [TS]

  the next one bigger say then they're missing out on all the greatness in [TS]

  product design all the sales all the goodwill that would come from the people [TS]

  who would want the smaller phones [TS]

  25 we have now compared to other big funds at least and people who would want [TS]

  even bigger phones like 20 phablets [TS]

  its I think ultimately as this market matures which I think it's pretty safe [TS]

  to say the smartphone market is premature at this point I think they [TS]

  have to go to multiple sizes I was I was on my 2013 to-do list you know putting [TS]

  on diversified the iPhone line and that means not just keep selling the old one [TS]

  as well as your different size so yeah like the reason I say that is not [TS]

  inconceivable that because that's what happens I'm over so long there is one [TS]

  iPhone and there's the older iPhones the older iPhone still our needs and what [TS]

  I've been saying they need to do with diversified line by not doing that by [TS]

  having you know there's actually not a one iPhone there's actually two iPhones [TS]

  and possibly some older one and what if what if they're single Corey five is how [TS]

  they do that you know you can combine them both and say I where diversifying [TS]

  the line we're getting a bigger screen and the way we're diversifying is that [TS]

  the one with the small screen cheap on exactly which would disappoint the [TS]

  people who want a smartphone its full performance with a should feel the same [TS]

  pain that iPod Touch users have had to feel we just want all the good things [TS]

  but you can never get all the good things so that they have so many options [TS]

  for how they can diversify their line with the just wanna do inside there also [TS]

  are trying to do it on cost them in how they come out with three of them I can [TS]

  go right from having one phone to having three funds like it it's conceivable all [TS]

  these things are possible I don't know which one of them it's hard to read what [TS]

  they think the issue is we all think they need a bigger screen does Apple [TS]

  believe that I think at this point probably do some of us think they can [TS]

  benefit from a lower cost one that I can imagine the bean counters Apple going [TS]

  you know it actually that's something that you as a customer but actually we [TS]

  boris for Apple as a business or not gonna do that you know I have a hard [TS]

  time seeing into that calculus so to take this sort of kind of full circle [TS]

  does that mean that in order to continue to what was the Steve Jobs -ism like to [TS]

  know [TS]

  delight and amaze our customers whatever was in order to keep people talk about [TS]

  the iPhone is one really mean what I really mean do they not do a 5s this [TS]

  this year do they instead do either a six or do they do a 5s and a iPhone plus [TS]

  whatever you guys called it [TS]

  is that enough to get something non ex on something unexpected enough to get [TS]

  people talking positively about the iPhone again that's a timing issue I [TS]

  think like if they could they definitely would like to say that right now like if [TS]

  they if they had planned enough in advance and for seeing this like they [TS]

  would definitely do that like maybe like maybe that you know I just don't think [TS]

  that the current situation they find themselves in they planned on 23 years [TS]

  out and that's the kind of planning you have to have to have to say we're going [TS]

  to go from you know this 404 s 55 s cadens actually we're not going to do [TS]

  that with the five were gonna do for for us I'm gonna do 596 start planning now [TS]

  cuz they had they would have to start playing it very long time ago I think [TS]

  they would really benefit from that but they didn't start playing 23 years ago I [TS]

  don't think big they're capable I think like they just got a ship what they have [TS]

  which is going to be a 5s [TS]

  gone and we don't know like the problem is where we have incomplete information [TS]

  so we don't know all the hard stuff like whatever whatever the heck else they're [TS]

  doing this not a phone is not an iPad presumably there's something for several [TS]

  things on various burners in various states of whatever any of those things [TS]

  if they come to a boil [TS]

  you know make this much less of an issue we got the 5s but we also got that Apple [TS]

  hover car no one cares that it's free in five [TS]

  like whatever crazy other things whether it's watches or TV stuff for you know [TS]

  new services are they buy some other company like so many other things can [TS]

  not make this an issue but if there's nothing new for this entire year and [TS]

  they just have the 5s and make all their products better in the way that we [TS]

  always expected to make things better I think that will not be a great year for [TS]

  Apple in terms of their perception in the industry although I would argue that [TS]

  they have liked grover talks a lot about the concept of momentum and I would [TS]

  argue right now russian reaction yet that Apple has so much negative [TS]

  momentum attraction and the press or and people's perceptions of how they're [TS]

  doing they have so much negativity around them right now and and skepticism [TS]

  and doubt that I don't think anything they released this year is going to fix [TS]

  that I don't think it can be fixed they can release a flying unicorn watch [TS]

  toaster tomorrow and and it wouldn't change anybody's mind everyone if they [TS]

  released some new product that was actually good to actually be good that [TS]

  would that would turn it around the only product they will come out of the year [TS]

  and it would just be like a bomb but the only product that they've released in [TS]

  recent memory that everyone thought was good from the start was the iPhone and [TS]

  I'm not ever gonna nothings gonna stop in like net net coming out of it in the [TS]

  same naysayers that everybody having an iPad had them the iPhone is probably [TS]

  have the most positive reception but even that had like oil tonight sporadic [TS]

  but you're not gonna be a phone maker me you know you're not going to just walk [TS]

  in like everything's got the negative it doesn't matter like the net out of that [TS]

  was exciting new thing Apple's exciting doing exciting new thing that's risky [TS]

  and interesting and i wanna know what's going on with it right whereas just keep [TS]

  making better Max and better iPads and iPhones year after year some which are [TS]

  you know are not as interesting as like the best phones from best Android phones [TS]

  that's that's boring and the worst thing I want to be as boring I mean you know [TS]

  if you even if they come with the watch and everyone says it's piece of crap [TS]

  that's more exciting than not coming out with a lot right and the net at the end [TS]

  of the year I think would be positive from that position like everyone hates [TS]

  it but who knows it's kind of crazy and it's got this one interesting thing that [TS]

  we didn't think of it you know [TS]

  uncertainty and excitement is more interesting than just boring iteration [TS]

  of the same things although I don't understand the finance industry like it [TS]

  when they want during iteration when they want a gigantic machine that turns [TS]

  out money but I guess they want explosive growth so they were looking [TS]

  for the next hockey stick graph and the grass for the phones and I pattern on [TS]

  hockey sticky enough for them [TS]

  horses grab some may seem to like their stuff but forgot Pendergraph that should [TS]

  be like wow small smiles looking at growth curve it's great and apples [TS]

  dominate the tablet industry and you know this great things and the story is [TS]

  still Android tablets to surpass iPads next year which may actually be true but [TS]

  it's like you know they have two great products and hockey stick trajectories [TS]

  that the phone and iPad and that's not enough was not enough writers it used [TS]

  those things you look more attractive when they had like no competitors and [TS]

  going back to acacia said earlier this is Ben as we discussed last episode this [TS]

  is like a draft blog post my head for weeks and I just haven't written out but [TS]

  not all over it for you guys here I feel like Apple's next big product you know [TS]

  all the press and maybe the public they wanted to be some gadget they say oh I [TS]

  wanted to be a watch or I want a toaster or I want to have a car that's not a [TS]

  gadget gadget he its people who want her cars are probably people who wants my [TS]

  watch is also so everyone has to be some kind of hardware gadget a TV set to be [TS]

  the problem is boring product ever you know they all these things and there was [TS]

  there is also speaking of grouper good discussion of this on talk show with a [TS]

  guy English and grammar last week but I think Apple's next big product shouldn't [TS]

  be any of those things it should be dramatically improving their services [TS]

  and their software in that order and and i know i mean I know it's not going to [TS]

  happen [TS]

  and it would make anybody except users and nerds happy you know it's not flashy [TS]

  it's not very newsworthy most of the time like it's not gonna it's not going [TS]

  to fix their perception but what their products need the most is significant [TS]

  substantial progress in services and quality of software and that I would [TS]

  much rather they take what they already have what they've already started all [TS]

  these different things they have going on these platforms just make them really [TS]

  great make the services better and improve the quality of the software I [TS]

  would much rather have that much we know that but but you're right that the [TS]

  market does not demand that even though the markets better off with that but the [TS]

  gadget they would see it it's like a shark stop moving my god they're [TS]

  retrenching and in some respects the Apple as like they're a little tiny bit [TS]

  them if they don't think they recognize this from a technical perspective at [TS]

  least expect the perspective that's what the maps thing was about its like the [TS]

  future the future is more of this network in active service things not [TS]

  less we need to take control of this we need to take the reins and you know they [TS]

  screwed up read maps but at least they recognize that is not a tenable [TS]

  long-term strategy to rely on your your most bitter rival for an essential [TS]

  service that your phone provides so you know we all understand why they added [TS]

  him at least this some recognition that they realized that speech recognition [TS]

  could be another similar issue with them not really knowing that technology but [TS]

  if they if they if they woke up one day and fully realized how screwed they are [TS]

  on their inability to network services and how and how important they're going [TS]

  to be in the future they would have to sign themselves up for a multi-year sort [TS]

  of dark period of getting you know figuring that stuff out kind of like the [TS]

  multi-year dark period coming out of the nineties where they had the whole crappy [TS]

  oster they had to read [TS]

  and they had to keep the company in business and then start work on the next [TS]

  big thing and they did you know they came out of it and when gangbusters [TS]

  right they probably need another period like that to get their house in order on [TS]

  the server side stuff because it's not like we're in a future where that [TS]

  service I stuff is going to be less important you know there's no going back [TS]

  and so these need to get really good at it or get really chummy with someone [TS]

  whose interests are aligned with theirs who is good at it and that used to be [TS]

  cool but it's not anymore so you know i mean all these reasons are like people [TS]

  keep saying that was getting slammed for illogical reasons or like oh they making [TS]

  all this money hand over fist walter is crazy and some respects the like the [TS]

  negativity that that is reflected in the the press about them is like cumulation [TS]

  of all the negative things that I had been thinking about Apple had like the [TS]

  past 10 years but at the time I was thinking no one else agree with them [TS]

  like Apple going gangbusters everybody loves it all our products are great and [TS]

  you be like but but service i'd this may be like what are you talking about their [TS]

  stuff you know and now it's kind of all coming home to roost and maybe maybe [TS]

  that's his projection maybe they're they're being negative numbers but I [TS]

  don't think the current negative view of Apple is that crazy I mean it's kind of [TS]

  crazy and term I don't know the details of the finances of evidence like you see [TS]

  they're making tons of money like they're not going out of business [TS]

  they're successful company that will run they have lots of people like all things [TS]

  girly post again and again but the same time I see where all their strategic [TS]

  weaknesses are and I see that it's not like you can snap your fingers and make [TS]

  the strategic weaknesses go away and even making an apple new new Apple TV or [TS]

  a watch does not make all those weaknesses go away just staves off the [TS]

  inevitable for a little bit longer in fact a new gadget or a new platform [TS]

  would probably make a lot of these problems worse because here's here's [TS]

  more things that require software and services they're having trouble keeping [TS]

  up with i mean like they're presumably they're they're reaping the benefits to [TS]

  go groups is like okay well we do have a new TV thing presumably you know it's [TS]

  based on iOS and we can leverage the App Store and we can leverage I club like [TS]

  summary there they are getting a common core of stuff that they work on [TS]

  that makes all their products better it's not like you know they're going to [TS]

  go out and make something totally unrelated where they can use any of [TS]

  their tech or platform so it's a marginal increase but I like the thing [TS]

  that makes us feel bad about us like is like a distraction I could you just get [TS]

  the crap that you have now to work right like stop watch stuff like you just you [TS]

  take it you don't we have this crazy perception that probably isn't rooted in [TS]

  reality of them taken off their triple-a players and putting them on whatever the [TS]

  bigger projects like the best most awesome iPhone people and put them on [TS]

  the upper watch right and like now like you don't put those guys off we need [TS]

  good people like we felt like we had like that when they you know seemingly [TS]

  pulled like the big good awesome important people off Pakistan for a [TS]

  while to be all hands on deck with the you know I S in the App Store just the [TS]

  right business decision but like they have finite resources and we don't want [TS]

  them to be there was nothing on the talk show episode we don't want them to be [TS]

  spread too thin like they don't have an infinite number of Awesometown to people [TS]

  and with with the financials and the share price and everything going down it [TS]

  may be harder to acquire and retain those amazing people so maybe you don't [TS]

  have somebody to spread around is used to mean it's that's a major problem for [TS]

  them is the size of the company is talent wise it's more than it needs to [TS]

  be they have very limited resources they are taking a look at these things and [TS]

  you're right that the business case for pulling a snow leopard Snow Leopard they [TS]

  basically spent what was at eighteen months development of it not adding a [TS]

  lot of user physical features you know the whole the whole message of snow [TS]

  leopard was gonna rebuild a lot of the foundation of this ad things you know [TS]

  really important foundational API's like Grand Central Dispatch gonna really make [TS]

  the foundation better and awesome and fix a lot of bugs rather than adding a [TS]

  whole bunch of new user facing features and mountain lion was kind of like that [TS]

  you know compared to Lyon but I i feel like they need to have something need to [TS]

  have a period like that for the for services and for all there's hope you [TS]

  like a company-wide period of like two years improving the stuff we have but [TS]

  you're right that business wise and market wise [TS]

  that will never be a smart idea to do well they could afford to do it on the [TS]

  Mac because all eyes were on iOS that's true so that's one that's one reprieve I [TS]

  mean there's no excuse for the services because like like I guess you're never [TS]

  gonna be all I clogs that's the nature of services is like an underpinning [TS]

  infrastructure but if they know that their game Jersey third platform but if [TS]

  they if they did I will be off Iowa's briefly and then those guys could do you [TS]

  know Iowa State which will be there Snow Leopard or whatever right but thats I [TS]

  don't think that's going to happen two platforms is plenty for them they're [TS]

  much more likely to me maybe they get away with it and I'm like you know the [TS]

  watch your TV or some other thing where it gets its own Fork of the OS is still [TS]

  iOS based or whatever and then you have time to sort of you know ten down the [TS]

  finalists but I don't think service is a much more dire than than the OS think [TS]

  they're on a pretty good track with the OS revisions I think there are ready and [TS]

  refinement mode on iOS yeah there's a couple of major things they need to add [TS]

  here and there but the service is a really big deal just because it's not [TS]

  something you do by snapping your fingers in like there they can have a [TS]

  snow leopard release of services to cure their problems that's it's much it's a [TS]

  problem that can't be fixed in 12 to 18 months exactly and it requires a lot of [TS]

  substantial changes stansel investments in infrastructure and talented does that [TS]

  and you know really really big shift and big investments that just take a long [TS]

  time even if they were a hundred percent prioritize on that right now right this [TS]

  second that just takes a long time to build up so if they want to do that fast [TS]

  here's my advice to them by Facebook shut down use the talent to have enough [TS]

  money to buy facebook probably not might be closed her big investment to remove [TS]

  facebook from the earth which is it a general good take all those people [TS]

  mostly gonna leave and go off and do other things but enough of them will [TS]

  stay then they know how to do it like they're not Google caliber people but [TS]

  they know how to run a service that people use that has better reliability [TS]

  of an iPod right so yeah that's why I would've [TS]

  think like it they would have bought Twitter me now I don't think it would [TS]

  sell at a price they tried rightfully if they would have bought Twitter they [TS]

  would have had a lot of that type of town a lot of experience and [TS]

  infrastructure I'm not but but not you know certainly probably better than [TS]

  whatever happens doing now [TS]

  mean isn't a lot of iCloud still outsourced to Microsoft as your and I [TS]

  was gonna say exactly that I don't think microsoft is terribly capable as a host [TS]

  on like Amazon whom has become very capable as a host but I wonder and I was [TS]

  going to ask you guys and so you brought it up I wonder if Apple and Microsoft [TS]

  could find a common enemy in Google and perhaps the two of them could from [TS]

  belong together in order to improve their services to the point that they're [TS]

  actually that's kind of what they're doing isn't it like you have to wait for [TS]

  Microsoft to be much to a fallen much even lower than it has now for them to [TS]

  ever because Microsoft is in the same situation as Apple kind of where they [TS]

  both recognize that Google does that server side stuff better just a [TS]

  Microsoft has been in typical Microsoft fashion and much more sort of head down [TS]

  ok this is an area where we are not strong working in true hire you know the [TS]

  guy who did Lotus Notes and we're gonna or revamp our entire service site [TS]

  architecture to be serious about this and like Apple hasn't done all that are [TS]

  these not as publicly who knows what they're doing internally but it's [TS]

  clearly not a top line item you know so I don't see Microsoft as a big win for [TS]

  Apple to cooperate in this regard and I also don't see Microsoft ever stooping [TS]

  to that level and say we're just gonna be your help in the battle against [TS]

  Microsoft Google and Microsoft still wants to be a big player even though we [TS]

  all kind of recognize that it's not going to be well everyone except [TS]

  Microsoft [TS]