0:00:00people treating me think that was drunk last show you didn't get essentially
0:00:05terrible best not to use only when your drunk like when your second people
0:00:12people crazy so what we talked about tonight I think I know I mean I think we
0:00:18have to talk about the Google Reader thing I think we do so let me start by
0:00:22asking to either of you guys believe in RSS I presume the answer is a resounding
0:00:26yes it exists whether you believe it or not it's all good just like Love III use
0:00:37ours is constantly lot of people have always said that the RSS is dead and I i
0:00:41dont use RSS I could replace it with Twitter whatever and I think that's true
0:00:45for a lot of people certainly but RSS as a technology is fine it behind the
0:00:51scenes of quite a lot of things and a lot of people do use it the way you
0:00:57think of when you say do you use are as a lot of people still do that and I
0:01:01don't really think that's ever going away because it serves water really good
0:01:06functions of the problem with ours as well one of the problems are says is
0:01:10that it gives you a really really easy way to shoot yourself in the foot which
0:01:14is you subscribe to all the sites that everyone's heard of all the big like 30
0:01:19posts a day blogs and news sites and everything so it's very very easy to
0:01:23reach a point where you're getting like 500 new RSS items per day and you just
0:01:30don't you can get all that and so it piles up and it becomes this guilt in
0:01:34box that you never want to clear and so I usually that results in New abandoning
0:01:40our assessment can I can never go back to RSS too many unread items you know
0:01:44that happens a lot especially with geeks and so I can totally see why people move
0:01:50off of our assessment at that point but it doesn't mean that you have to admit
0:01:55the only option and doesn't mean RSS is dead or dying it just means you're using
0:01:59it badly and sure you know it it's partially the technology's fault for
0:02:04being so easy to misuse or to use an unsustainable way for you for yourself
0:02:10but
0:02:11that's not to say the entire technology is dead and you can eat people at the
0:02:14same problem with Twitter where they follow too many people and they can't
0:02:17keep up with their feed and so they they find ways around it they skip everything
0:02:21is one of the top of the only look at new stuff or whatever you know that you
0:02:25find ways around it
0:02:26they trim their follower counts right you know we think alike you know lots of
0:02:30people saying well nobody uses are so small but obviously in our circles in
0:02:33the sort of three travel and on the net it I think the usage is still pretty
0:02:38widespread I was looking at you know group just we did a little before he
0:02:41treated his stats on a website but he tweeted the actual like logline 200,000
0:02:47and 400,000 subscribers all nobody uses are as well apparently 400,000 people at
0:02:52least are using it because that's just from one site stats right so that's it
0:02:57yeah we're a tiny group of people right but you know in the circle of travel and
0:03:03computer nerds is big enough to sustain a technology because this point
0:03:10technologies we use that nobody else interested in a mean like how many
0:03:13people use Xcode and it still viable products because it has a purpose right
0:03:16so that the net remains to be seen
0:03:20you know like I mean we sustained winner for a long time just ourselves we're not
0:03:24discovered IRC it's not I don't think the like the popularity of the the
0:03:29technology its way past the threshold like it's viable right so the only
0:03:33question is you know the technology is viable there's more than enough people
0:03:37want to use it more than enough people to sustain a market for the usage of
0:03:41that is just a question of where do we go from here now that you know goal came
0:03:46along and pushed everybody out and then took its bomb I know right and and you
0:03:51know a lot of people are saying to google said that using has been
0:03:54declining so it's not worth keeping up well there's a whole lot of businesses
0:03:58that are not worth the Google paying attention to at their size but that a
0:04:03lot of smaller companies can make very good businesses addressing those needs
0:04:07you know there's a lot of things Google doesn't do i mean certainly you can look
0:04:10at some of their projects and they do everything is a major flop
0:04:15experimentation but you know if RSS is now too small for Google to care about
0:04:21that doesn't mean that is too small for anyone to care
0:04:24about it's not so much that I don't think that's too small too cool to care
0:04:28about like now as if like this I don't know how much i buy the thing i wud
0:04:31declining readership it's it's almost as if like they didn't never had a reason
0:04:35to get into it all anyway really like I think by the time they got into it was
0:04:40clear that it wasn't going to be the next winter
0:04:43you know like ours as it was what it was and it was never gonna like suddenly
0:04:49bust out in because it's kind of like it's kinda like using the day's news and
0:04:52stuff it ending using that was going to sweep the nation and run the world and
0:04:55just become like it was already used that was already you know sort of the
0:04:59thing that it was but you know I guess we might as well have that and them
0:05:04having a reasonable free products such a long period of time
0:05:07kind of doing intentionally to crash everybody else but the the net effect
0:05:13was good really good at keeping their servers up cool is really good at making
0:05:16their service fast and doing the things they were doing is actually kind of
0:05:21difficult and they're giving away for free so the company like NewsGator is
0:05:25something we're trying to make a business out of it couldn't do it was
0:05:27like yeah we're better than Google Reader but just barely and their free
0:05:30and so you know they just SAT there until everyone else has gone out of
0:05:34business in the city why are we even doing Google Reader I don't know what
0:05:38stop doing that I mean I think they kept going longer than they had to come like
0:05:42a relationship where you want to break up with somebody like just keep you know
0:05:47like four years I think anyone who is surprised by this I would be shocked
0:05:52because like I've been looking forward to for years and things like why are
0:05:56they still going every day we all knew the hammer was gonna fall years and
0:06:00years like even a blog post about a nightmare reading his blog postings
0:06:04angle yet Google Reader is not long for this world and yet here we are two years
0:06:07later and I'm just finally getting around axing it so I don't know anyone
0:06:12who's mad Google tracks and understand where that comes from other than just
0:06:15frustration I totally I totally see why they're getting rid of it and your post
0:06:21the bond market you put on your website just like this finally freezes all up to
0:06:25maybe do something interesting in the area that's also true but I think people
0:06:28are still bummed I was bomb because we know like alright
0:06:31that the other shoe finally dropped now we have to have this period of time
0:06:34where there's nothing healthy weight for something you know what I mean is
0:06:38already there is only a matter of a familiar for the do it together they
0:06:42make some clients marxist clients be posted on their blog like a very fast
0:06:48after very quickly after Google+ their thing that they've they are kinda
0:06:53preparing for this for a while and they built an API compatible clone of Google
0:06:58Reader for themselves that their clients will automatically start syncing with
0:07:03Google Reader shuts down and and is already like a number i mean just
0:07:07tonight on Twitter I thought about building one there's already tons of
0:07:10people saying OK announcer in this new project is gonna marry the Google API
0:07:15and you can self-hosted open source or whatever or somebody else can build a
0:07:20big platform on it I do think though it was really funny that feeling in their
0:07:26post they said okay so we thought it was gonna shut us down for a while so we
0:07:30built this thing we built on Google AppEngine but that's the thing about it
0:07:38like what do you know it's not that we're Google Reader did it so
0:07:41groundbreaking it's the fact that it was run by Google which meant that it was up
0:07:45and available in there and I'm sure people are going to say oh is down until
0:07:49recently the reason having someone else do this annoying stuff like that
0:07:55operation stuff running a server keeping up keeping efficient having it work at
0:07:59scale from many brazilians
0:08:01even RSS like oh the declining usership the number of people are getting Google
0:08:04Reader is huge compared to like you know you're some little companies ok well
0:08:08we're gonna have seven million people over tomorrow and pull stuff from it is
0:08:11that you're ok with that can you scale sure it's not easy and one of the
0:08:17biggest challenges of designing a service like that is that Google called
0:08:21the feeds and then the client just logged into Google and said hey what's
0:08:25new
0:08:26so Google had to maintain this crawling infrastructure the entire internet right
0:08:33now so we're kind of unique position right is that better than you right but
0:08:36for anyone else to do it you have to build a crawling at the structure that
0:08:40has to crawl like millions and millions of feeds quickly and repeatedly
0:08:44new updates do you think that's an important part of the service them all
0:08:48yet it is absolutely great yeah because that's a that's a major thing that your
0:08:53app doesn't have to do if you're running RSS client that's a big deal and it also
0:08:58they normalize all the feeds into one particular Adam format so you only one
0:09:04partner I mean it's there's there's lots of reasons for clients to want to do it
0:09:10that way service against that so yeah I think any service Google Reader is going
0:09:18to have to provide at least the automatic content crawling and
0:09:23normalization of the field format now that they can leave out all the social
0:09:28stuff they can leave out flagging tagging starring all they can leave all
0:09:32that stuff out as far as I'm concerned but the basics of sinking a list of
0:09:38features ascribe to thinking what you have read and unread and providing that
0:09:42whole crawling back end so that the client doesn't have to do it I think any
0:09:45any replacement has to do those things and why the crying part that's just
0:09:50basically so the client doesn't have to open up ten million TCP connections to
0:09:54ten nine different servers and pull stuff from it exactly what we see this
0:09:57and we see this week podcast clients on on iOS there there is I think only one I
0:10:03think only pocket cast by shifty jelly they do server-side crawling of all the
0:10:09feeds similar to a career doesn't RSS I don't think any other major client does
0:10:14that please e-mail John if I'm wrong I will let you know that actually but like
0:10:18I use downcast my feet from my podcast client and every time you launch the app
0:10:22has to update it has to crawl whatever you know all 25 or whatever number feed
0:10:27subscribe to individually and that sucks and it's a big waste of bandwidth for
0:10:32things that don't implement not modified stuff like that it's very inefficient on
0:10:37like a thin client like phone we don't really want to have some massive on a
0:10:41desktop we're just playing in the background who cares
0:10:44rightists if you have some app in the back on its fine but an iOS that matters
0:10:48a lot when you launch the app you don't have to sit there for a minute and a
0:10:52half all qualities feeds you know Google Reader clients are awesome because
0:10:56they only have to sink to one thing they only have to get Google and Google back
0:11:01saying here's a list of new things instead of with RSS you might have way
0:11:05more subscriptions on the podcast client so what are you if you subscribe to like
0:11:09250 feeds and most of them are updated most of the time but there's a few that
0:11:13are that's way more efficient to do the Google Reader way where the service I
0:11:18cross everything than that required the clients across hundred fifty feeds every
0:11:2215 minutes that you launch them a transitional things like fast forward 20
0:11:27years is still a factor that we still have like an awesome teen core
0:11:33processors and R&R wristwatch communicative things and bandwidth is
0:11:38really high and we just as actually faster to call crawl hundred fifty
0:11:44different URLs in parallel than to ask one server 40 no cause think about think
0:11:48about what you have to do you have to if you so much more did it the radios on
0:11:51longer I mean that's it that's never gonna be a more efficient it's always
0:11:55gonna be better to go through the intermediate and I will be more
0:11:57efficient but maybe the desktop on the desktop is not as much of a factor
0:12:01because we're not worried about opening up opening up a TCP connection takes a
0:12:07long time so you don't have to open up one of them it's better than having to
0:12:09open up a hundred and fifty but the bandwidth concerns like assuming mobile
0:12:13bandwidth you know goes away and the CPU concerns of having all these threads
0:12:17going at once which is untenable on iOS device today maybe that isn't in the
0:12:21future I'm just wondering if it's like one of those things where I remember
0:12:24back when to do any sort of are assessing the server like we don't do
0:12:28that for the web we don't do all the mobile web surfing through a proxy
0:12:31unless you I guess my self and non-self does that everybody used to be in the
0:12:35bad old days the mobile web surfing had to go through a proxy cuz it had to like
0:12:38tear down the pages for you and all sorts of all things in the Amazon still
0:12:41doing it but we accept now the tradeoff is like a rather have Mobile Safari just
0:12:46go right to the website don't compress my images don't modify the mark up like
0:12:51a real web browser it connects the real way and we're just gonna bite the bullet
0:12:55and go with that it seems to me that that's gotta be eventually the future so
0:12:59we are still around
0:13:01that's got to be the future of this type of service long-term not not last long
0:13:04but also the RSS like the access path
0:13:07is different with RSS almost all of those requests that the polling client
0:13:12makes are gonna be returned back with nothing to you know i three of three or
0:13:16four whenever you know nothing new so for the client after check that over and
0:13:22over again is extremely wasteful so and one way you can solve this is with push
0:13:28up somehow and RSS cloud to address this push issue but pushes really complicated
0:13:34to implement all various ends of it the polling was just way similar sites we
0:13:38still have it but you know with RSS I think it makes a lot of sense because
0:13:43almost all of the polls that happened will result in nothing new this fifty
0:13:48minute interval then it makes sense to have all that inefficient polling
0:13:52happening somewhere else that can tolerate inefficiency is like a
0:13:56datacenter that's powered by AC power and on a battery that has a big fat
0:14:00connection to the Internet and is always running this app as opposed to it after
0:14:04launch and you have to look I S apt who knows how this will change in the future
0:14:08but at the moment
0:14:09iOS apps like RSS readers can't automatically check things in the
0:14:13background about 15 minutes they have to be running and so when you launch it has
0:14:17to lose all that state from something right then and there are so many reasons
0:14:22to have that be remote based and have you know have a Google Reader like setup
0:14:26where the service doing all the crawling in the client just send you one very
0:14:29lightweight request to the server which is already done most of the work and I
0:14:33think the thing that that maybe we're not considering is the difference it is
0:14:38at creation time and money guys kind of lightly touching the second ago but if I
0:14:42was about to write a pirate in RSS client tomorrow I wouldn't want to have
0:14:49to fiddle around with with trying to figure out all the different and varied
0:14:54responses I'm gonna get from all these different and varied web servers I want
0:14:57something that's going to be a facade in front of that that's going to make them
0:15:00nice and clean and so I can get the part of the app that i dont wanna do which is
0:15:05the behind the scenes boring getting the the RSS updates and I can get that out
0:15:11of the way as quickly as possible so I can do the cool stuff on the UI side now
0:15:15as it turns out I actually am a terrible UI developer but in principle if your
0:15:19gonna right now
0:15:20do it because you have something new and exciting to do and you're not going to
0:15:24want to bother with doing on the back end stuff you can do all the UI stuff in
0:15:28in like you were saying Marco having one place to get all that normalized and in
0:15:33a clean clean stayed is much better nazis you so much time went by before
0:15:39you compile when you're just writing the code it saves so much time and that I
0:15:43don't think many people have very much interest in doing that boring stuff they
0:15:46just want to do the fun you I study also there there's a practical aspect of lake
0:15:50with with iOS apps in the App Store if there are some new weirdo feed that you
0:15:55find that some weird format if it's a service I configuration of the parser
0:15:59you can update immediately and all your clients have immediately you don't have
0:16:03to recode the apple butter a preview and channeling they wanted you might be like
0:16:11the idea that I and the idea of all all rss feeds funneling into a service which
0:16:19includes a nap I see all the reasons for it but it just sits a seems like Amazon
0:16:25Silk to me it seems like wow that was like it that's that it just smells like
0:16:30that to me and it seems like it's just a bump in the road along our way to fully
0:16:36decentralized thinking maybe maybe we need a new protocol that may be pulling
0:16:39down entire RSS feed or expecting a three or four based on some time stamp
0:16:42hopefully getting your time zone right and everything is not like me maybe
0:16:46there's a better product may be tapped net or something that looks similar to
0:16:49that where if you make it more efficient protocol and really decentralized it in
0:16:54some way maybe it makes up for it but I mean you know the other aspect of things
0:16:58not just that the content crying but the main reason the main way that I use
0:17:04Google Reader I think at least a quarter of the people who are regular readers
0:17:08use in this way as as a syncing service as in I read news as you know that's an
0:17:14activity I do in some place and when I go someplace else a different computer
0:17:18different device or whatever I wanted to know that I read that thing
0:17:22other thing and that is really an entirely separate thing from irate my
0:17:27feeds normalize them tell me this updates and stuff like that because now
0:17:30you're into like a state synchronization that has nothing to do with the fees as
0:17:35everything to do with you what did you read so far you know what did you
0:17:38subscribe to what they do on the subscribe to and that state
0:17:41synchronization is probably harder problem you know algorithmic
0:17:47algorithmically least to find figure out what the hell the right thing is to do
0:17:51that then the near operational problem of crying the entire web of RSS feeds
0:17:57and normalizing them of writing a response like that and so those those
0:18:00two things that's quite a bit for any one party or multiple parties to bite
0:18:06off because that's what people are looking for you you'd never see the Guru
0:18:10web UI some people live in it but I never even look at that news wire and I
0:18:13used on various devices on various machines and I wanted to be in sync so I
0:18:18want something to do that as well as like the normalization I don't see that
0:18:22that's going on it's more of a development concern so something doesn't
0:18:26normalizing doesn't aggravate and for example doesn't cash which you know the
0:18:30thing that drives everyone who authors and artists be crazy about careers you
0:18:33get a bomb item in their never forget another opportunity for someone coming
0:18:38into this field to do it better hey give us a way to delete that crap out or
0:18:41maybe have smart caching that forgets it disappears but anyway those the sinking
0:18:46aspect of it it is what I'm really looking for in some third party vendor
0:18:50to hop up and say hey we're going to provide a service for all your news
0:18:54reading applications to keep them on sink and will charge some small amount
0:18:57of money in your subscribe to it or something like that yeah it snowed fever
0:19:03is that right fever response to that is what we like self-hosted and what does
0:19:08it mean but the problem is like when you ask people to sell host I can I know and
0:19:14technical and knowledge but I don't know I agree some posting as that will always
0:19:21accept your audience and requiring that I mean if it's a good way to learn
0:19:28something you don't know about all the technologies involved self hosting is a
0:19:30good learning experience for with an audience of one so you're not like you
0:19:33know destroying some
0:19:34business you know learning about suicide development but it's the you know that's
0:19:39that's hosting is not going to explode now that Google Reader is gone but we
0:19:43all wanted something to do with Google Reader did for us because you know when
0:19:46I read something that it's red and everything is fast and all my clients
0:19:50work with it and you know and some people use the web interface for them
0:19:53they're looking for an equivalent or better web interface I i think i I think
0:20:01the web interface hopefully is is on its way out for RSS because I mean certainly
0:20:06RSS is being pushed pretty heavily it always was a very eccentric technology
0:20:10and and while there are non geeks user I'm sure there are a heck of a lot more
0:20:15geeks who do and so if RSS like if if the web reader experience never fully
0:20:24gets replaced I think that's fine where I think we're going to see you know I
0:20:30think we're gonna see to these come out of us first we gonna see you know
0:20:35obviously we're going to see that the the backend sinking platform will be
0:20:38replaced by a million different people doing doing basically doing the same
0:20:41thing which is just marrying the Google Reader API with some kind of hosted or
0:20:46open source thing that anybody can get or use and at school and we need that
0:20:50would be kind of a shame because everything i've heard from people who
0:20:54develop against the career API I've makes it doesn't help that it was
0:20:57undocumented unsupported breath like if you had if you had to pick an API to
0:21:00make it easy for app developers to implement same thing maybe the Google
0:21:03reedy API is not ideal I understand how to do it
0:21:06compatibility with all the people who are talking to Google Reader but if I
0:21:11was doing one of the projects I would be like ok do the Google Reader API
0:21:14mirroring to get us off the ground but let's plan like a much better ABI the
0:21:19makes it even easier for developers to you know and I can that be like version
0:21:23too often a different places like sure you know yeah I'm actually I'm sure that
0:21:28will happen with almost all of these where they will make they will start out
0:21:31with a pair of bootstrap it and then they'll have their own light clean nice
0:21:35new API but the Google Reader API is probably gonna be the standard if there
0:21:41is one like you know right now it was really easy to make an RSS happen last
0:21:45year's because all you had
0:21:47to do was give people Google Reader username password fields online login
0:21:51that was it now I think we're gonna basically see a third field being added
0:21:56to that which is like hostname
0:21:59like whatever whatever service you are using the API type in the hostname here
0:22:03and then type in your password for any thoughts you boxes I think that's that's
0:22:09the easiest way forward for the clients and so if that is the outcome if that's
0:22:14what you know assume assume we have like multiple multiple services that spring
0:22:20up there gonna be like this that are going to replace Google Reader and get
0:22:22some popularity if that's the case none of them will have the leverage to make a
0:22:27new API Google Reader likely be stuck with it
0:22:33just look at the declines have already written all the code for it you know why
0:22:39why would I rewrite my client new fancy but I've already got my client working
0:22:43with red is working with it for five years now whatever you know why would I
0:22:48change of our new API's cleaner for new development you get those guys on board
0:22:52but like thats I think that would be a shame because like I said it's not like
0:22:55people saying Google Reader is the most awesome API for sinking and you know
0:22:59keeping track of stuff maybe not so awesome as a funny side borrow one of
0:23:03the weird little projects I did a tumblr was back back before before Twitter
0:23:10bought Tweetie from Arbor 21 its own app and everyone loved it there is one of
0:23:15the very advanced settings fields was API hostname and you could type in any
0:23:21host name there and it would it would use that as the basis of all the Twitter
0:23:24API URLs so I wrote the Twitter API for tumblr enough of it so that you can
0:23:33browse tumblr into et just using this field to say like forever and it was it
0:23:40was it was interesting was it again like him like you got this whole app kind of
0:23:44for free by just making burgers mirroring enough of Twitter's API to
0:23:48make this work that's why that's why I'm saying like that RSS like not that it's
0:23:54inadequate but that
0:23:56it's just a piece of the puzzle be like our RSS RSS and Atom our standards for
0:24:02do representation but they're they're not they don't help you with the art so
0:24:06what about you might have an API that is efficient and can give you
0:24:10synchronization information like that would have to be a layer on top of it
0:24:12and then that larry is that ok with that
0:24:15defacto that is the Google Reader API because that's the most climax ran
0:24:19against it and it's you know is the only player in town and it was free in like
0:24:22an hour now that's our middle layer and you know it would be nicer if there was
0:24:27a similarly open standard like RSS or Atom to fill that role that wasn't just
0:24:32like the the leftover droppings of a company that was once vaguely interested
0:24:36in the business lost interest
0:24:38yeah and and it's also worth speculating on why did this little bit more I just
0:24:44thought of a new theory now I think the real reason they shut it down is because
0:24:51I've heard from various people over the last couple of months as we start to see
0:24:56problems I've heard that the staff assigned to work on Google Reader was
0:25:01basically between 0 and three people do you believe in how you measure so I've
0:25:08heard it had basically nobody working on it and so member it had it had a pretty
0:25:13bad outings like a week or two ago something like that I'm guessing what
0:25:19happened was it was working fine for a long time and then things started to
0:25:24break and when things started to break a few weeks ago whenever that was nobody
0:25:30had a fix it code for years and so that's probably what made you decide you
0:25:35know what this is just easier to kill them to fix because it's not giving us
0:25:40enough value might as well just kill it rather than maintaining the real reason
0:25:45but it's worth considering one conspiracy I think like crazy reason is
0:25:50when you're reading RSS you're not going to people's websites and seeing
0:25:54ads as I mean things they don't like about from a business perspective
0:26:00business reason that you can think to get rid of this thing is like look if
0:26:04only they know these numbers but how many people are using it as an API that
0:26:09they never see like how many people using apps like reader and that is why
0:26:12we never and never see a single one of our ads because all they like it's just
0:26:15an API back at all we're doing is providing computing horsepower and
0:26:18uptime for them for 30 benefit and never Sierra the people on the web interface
0:26:23they can show them as they can you know harvest their interests and you know
0:26:27it's just like Gmail like if everybody use the web interface and if that
0:26:32everybody was a much larger number than it currently is it would still be around
0:26:35but from a business perspective i think im very large number of people don't use
0:26:42the web interface and the total sum of all Google Reader uses so much more than
0:26:46like this gmail user base or whatever that it just doesn't make any sense to
0:26:49keep it right and to that end if you're going to replace Google Reader why would
0:26:55you get into that business of the whole point of the businesses was t it is to
0:26:59use third-party clients and I guess this comes back tapped out an ad in the ideas
0:27:03well you have super nerds that are affluent enough that they'll be able to
0:27:06spare few bucks a month to pay for it or node 50 bucks a year whatever the number
0:27:10maybe but I wouldn't want to get into that business that seems to get back to
0:27:16grouper with this 400,000 RSS subscribers that's how he makes money
0:27:19from a site you nobody has one of the ways he he sells RSS sponsorships and
0:27:24you get to your sponsoring the RSS feed which thing that the customers mornin
0:27:29I'm pretty sure the answer to both of those are in the RSS feed as well right
0:27:32so if you if you control the RSS feeds you can certain tannen to RSS feeds all
0:27:37the people there are maybe that maybe that model does not work and people hate
0:27:41it but you know the apt 9 a.m. I'll certainly more direct passed a little
0:27:44bit and you get to use their synchronization service and now wherever
0:27:47you read you know like that could be that service I don't think it's quite
0:27:52designer for this thing exactly about you know that's the question of like
0:27:57okay so Google was subsidizing a result profitable business like an order search
0:28:00revenue like that they were doing is more or less out of the goodness of
0:28:03their own heart
0:28:05higher-level not quite i mean they they want to have access to all the world's
0:28:09information and and this and a lot of information flows through RSS 2.0 feed
0:28:14burner 47 fever is more of an ad by but you know I I think it made sense why
0:28:19they started this in the first place
0:28:21didn't even when they bought feel very though it's like i don't think anyone to
0:28:25Google had any any notion that RSS was going to grow tremendously from the
0:28:32point where they bought it and it hasn't and the point where they bought it
0:28:36already wasn't like everything was it was big among nerds but it was never
0:28:40like this the growth curve was never never never any illusions it was gonna
0:28:43take off like Facebook or Twitter was no hockey stick curb at the time that they
0:28:47bought into it maybe they wanted to have it just because like there's no sense in
0:28:51other people in other people having this thing and people spending time elsewhere
0:28:55and maybe like the long-term evil plan is alright we gotta get this because it
0:28:59is a thing is not a big thing is not gonna grow but we need to get it so we
0:29:03can just kind of quietly put it to sleep which is you know the rap on Google when
0:29:08they buy companies you know John Cooper you know I don't name names of the
0:29:12companies that Google is bought that it kind of like faded away you never really
0:29:17hear about them again or the you know or are they just don't improve rapidly or
0:29:22they just you know it's like if it's on Google's umbrella they have the option
0:29:26to to let it go live up on a farm upstate whenever they feel like it right
0:29:30i think i mean first of all there's a big problem here but it's kind of a mean
0:29:37this this has a lot of parallels to win more controversial things but you know
0:29:41what they did really and I don't think they I don't think they plan to this but
0:29:46what happened was a Google Reader came out and destroyed a very big market of
0:29:52desktop RSS readers and web Google just came in and destroyed it was free and it
0:29:57synced and none of the things did at the time and they destroyed and they held on
0:30:02to that market for eight years and now they're killing it now but now you know
0:30:09I think one has to wonder how did they destroy the market for the desktop app
0:30:14apps like how do they make it so it's no longer viable to sell the absolute they
0:30:17definitely destroy the services like NewsGator newsletter is trying to tell
0:30:21you
0:30:22synchronization services but a desktop out i mean what they did to the desktop
0:30:25apps on iOS apps even more insidious didn't destroy them they just made it so
0:30:29that you know they were the only game in town for a thing that those people
0:30:32needed but didn't wanna write well as writing you know and so now all the
0:30:36clients not reader uses Google Reader newswire uses Google Reader and all this
0:30:40you know all these things use Google Reader is this the only game in town and
0:30:43now they're hooked onto the strain the Google is not always kind of mad at
0:30:47anybody so it wasn't the sync engine that killed the stock lines it was the
0:30:51web interface it was it was making it making RSS reading free so you think
0:30:56that took people away people stop buying a newswire as they could just go to the
0:31:00Google Reader website absolutely definitely I disagree I completed not
0:31:04people but I will tell you I can guarantee you there was another gonna
0:31:10guess like who would we go to to get that information like we could google
0:31:13presumably knows how many people use 32 over the lifetime they could show that
0:31:17growth sure I guess brent controls the growth curve like sales newswire it with
0:31:24his deal with the NewsGator but I can tell you i mean just haven't lived
0:31:28through that anecdotally I saw that happen I saw I saw many artists clients
0:31:33just give up and die and the few that were left with a ones integrated Google
0:31:38Reader like you had I gave a resurgence yeah it wasn't like Google reader's
0:31:44website went away and in fact I believe it worked reasonably well on mobile from
0:31:48from as early as anything more than a resurgence in suddenly like things like
0:31:55reader what a creature of violence like they wouldn't have it was not newswire
0:31:59was sitting there as the once once and possibly not future king of desktop
0:32:05reader market and people were not clamoring to rear applications but it is
0:32:08the iPhone launch now everyone wants to write a news reader applications across
0:32:11all talking to you the reader you some idea of you readers dominance right now
0:32:17I I put my feed stats and
0:32:20ninety percent of subscribers to my feed are subscribed via Google Reader sank
0:32:28like that's how big this is ninety percent of my my subscribers and then
0:32:31like there's like I have a hundred web interface right no they don't they don't
0:32:36distinguish but you know that give you some idea like if this service shuts
0:32:40down not only is it is leaving a gaping hole in the in the RSS Inc business but
0:32:48this could have a massive impact on the readership of websites like I can also
0:32:56boost their ad impressions eventually have to go to the website maybe but like
0:33:00one of the reasons are so great is because it allows you to very easily
0:33:06follow sites that don't update frequently enough you a check every day
0:33:10so before our staff came out if you had a blog posted once a month
0:33:16nobody would read it and post every day so that people would go to your site
0:33:22everyday and check for new stuff and a lot of people as someone who has a
0:33:26website that posts not once a month of people still generally yes but there's a
0:33:35great power of RSS is allowing you enabling you to follow a whole bunch of
0:33:41sites that update infrequently and be and doing that in a manageable way so
0:33:47because it's so easy to read them then those who had written frequently they
0:33:53have better audiences they have more reach their more influential even if
0:33:56they don't write every day and you can get some of that value now from Twitter
0:34:00Facebook and all these other crappy services please in OKC but there's still
0:34:06so much of that happening on RSS as you can tell by you know stats from me and
0:34:11group or anybody else a ton of that activity as an RSS so
0:34:17I think it could be really disruptive come July when the shutdown and sites
0:34:24like mine and groupers and other people who have like heavy RSS readership in
0:34:30the geeky spaces sites like this we could see major shifts in in either
0:34:36direction huh sure we could see major shifts and how people read our sites and
0:34:42you'll be able to tell the month leading up I guess I think my Google reader
0:34:45supports a little subscriber numbers in long lines and everything like if those
0:34:48people disperse I don't know if all the other things they dispersed to identify
0:34:52themselves in such a nice convenient way so it may be difficult to like counting
0:34:58RSS subscribers is different than counting all you can eat there is like
0:35:02someone decided this was more than enough to put in their feet and when I
0:35:06make something new on the site
0:35:08their little feet thing becomes bold presuming they even look at their little
0:35:12feet thing which is not you know like this four hundred thousand Google Reader
0:35:17subscribers you know how many of them actually going to look at that feed in
0:35:20maybe people have stopped using google reader on but Google Reader will keep
0:35:24hitting their site right and counting them as a you know it's part of their
0:35:27subscription I'm not sure I'd like I'm not sure how long they will do that for
0:35:31him whether it's mothers do indefinitely so like maybe the numbers are any from
0:35:35reading your site anymore or whether they like have some kind of timeout
0:35:38period where they stopped counting you after a while of not looking at reader
0:35:41I'm not really sure I like Twitter followers I mean how many human beings
0:35:44who ever heard used within the last year and how many people are just people who
0:35:47followed you and they joined Twitter for three days three years ago and you know
0:35:51are not there anymore
0:35:54web stats in viewership things are always kind of food do but Google Reader
0:35:58at least gave some sort of unification to the budu in like you know you love it
0:36:02summarizes it for you it's measured the same way as everybody's using it ninety
0:36:06percent of your subscribers anyway so now we that that's going to become much
0:36:10fuzzier even even if every single one of those people who was actually rehearse I
0:36:13continues to how you to be able to detect them and track them and confirmed
0:36:18yourself that's the case is probably going to be difficult so you're
0:36:22begrudging
0:36:24the disappearance of Google the all seen eye because it doesn't like to see
0:36:28everything grudging I'm just as strange scenario is strange situation we found
0:36:34ourselves I mean this is what happens when it when a company you know I mean
0:36:37microsoft word to your company with some profitable business can use that profit
0:36:41to subsidize other businesses that its speculating into MIT these may or may
0:36:46not be things that we want to get into you know and I guess I think we will
0:36:49never had any illusions RSS was going to do a hockey stick but it's like my house
0:36:54worth worth keeping our eye on and we should buy everything up that has
0:36:59anything to do with it so that we can some said it was Marcus david Turner
0:37:03when we feel like it ended like now is the time of your life and you know it
0:37:08was easy because they are you had all that web crawling infrastructure in
0:37:11place that they could use so it was easier for them to do it then it would
0:37:15be for anyone else to do it or not not so much like because that's that's where
0:37:19the that's their muscle that's you know their companies built on we can put up
0:37:22services on the internet that scale to any number of people including the
0:37:27entire internet like our storage does and our whole business is built around
0:37:30like we have we all section the company just works on infrastructure constantly
0:37:35improving it and sort of it helps every service that we do that's why whenever
0:37:38the bar start to like okay I don't care what you're doing before it's time to
0:37:42get things we know what they were doing and even though our way seems crazy to
0:37:46you let me tell you that you should rewrite travelgate indiscretion top of
0:37:50our infrastructure which will delay your business for years and by the time
0:37:53you're done maybe no monster product anymore but we're not gonna let you keep
0:37:57running your crazy PHP Ruby thing here if we can help it because you really
0:38:00need to get with the program and because our program is pretty damn good whereas
0:38:05other random companies you know you're starting from scratch or even if you're
0:38:09some other big companies like Microsoft is trying to get some days and expertise
0:38:12and an apple and like they just none of those companies dedicated maybe Amazon
0:38:17is the only other one that dedicates proportional to the same amount of
0:38:21resources about we need to get our crap together service I because it's an
0:38:24essential part of our business yeah I know we sell things but you know where
0:38:27these me to come from well as you want to sell things better and hey that's a
0:38:32marketable service yesterday and all those things and i think is the only
0:38:36competitor who has the kind of expertise in scale and I think they're still much
0:38:42more sort of slapped together evolved over a long period of time under
0:38:46tremendous pressure with a crazy man with a weapon at their back versus sort
0:38:52of Google's philosophical PHD's algorithmic strategy for indexing the
0:38:57entire web anyway I don't know I mean that that kind of blew a lot of other
0:39:06stuff that was being talked about me I guess we have a new pope and we now have
0:39:10one less hard cast network but otherwise I don't know what's happening in the
0:39:16world of technology market don't talk about South by Southwest come on my god
0:39:21veteran of that are a number of tons of useful and insightful things to say I'm
0:39:27so happy I didn't go this year before this or I think the year before that
0:39:30that's a bold face lie cuz you're missing out on Salt Lake man I surprise
0:39:37how are in the whole conference thing of it what it what a mess that is like it
0:39:42first of all what that's worth talking briefly i think is Google i/o tickets
0:39:49went on sale this morning and as usual sold out very very quickly and there are
0:39:55lots of like I saw our friendship own complaining about duplicate transaction
0:39:59logs that it did not sell out gracefully but it did so I quickly and and you know
0:40:06we see with that we see with WBC selling out not that quickly but at least still
0:40:12very quickly every year and there's an issue in question what do you really do
0:40:18about that like what what can you do about that problem and because you don't
0:40:22have any state tickets are gonna they're gonna come on sale and we don't know you
0:40:26know it could be anytime between now and late May that they will probably make
0:40:30tickets available for the immediacy of this year and we don't know and probably
0:40:34gonna sell out within a half hour 45 minutes
0:40:39Apple has tried different things you know different polarizations of like to
0:40:45have these Tech Talks around around the country will become a mini WDC
0:40:50country and you can get a ticket to those if you haven't gone to WTC
0:40:54recently so this kind of a priority thing where if you get a lot out of one
0:40:57you can go to the other but you know they they still have this problem of
0:41:03there's just way more demand than there is supply of tickets and in you know
0:41:08they can do the typical economic thing of just raised the price really high
0:41:11because that would kind of make them look like dicks and that they would get
0:41:16a lot of flak for that it would be worth it and like Google is making the problem
0:41:21worse because Google i/o tickets it's becoming a pattern that Google gives
0:41:26everyone free hardware at their devices that's usually worth about as much as
0:41:32the ticket price looks like 900 bucks so like a lot of the people buying as
0:41:38Google tickets are probably just wanting the free hardware and not really giving
0:41:41a crap about the conference and so that's kinda like that i think is a
0:41:46really bad thing for group for Google to be doing what they should probably stop
0:41:49to think what what do you think Apple could do to reduce demand for WC or to
0:41:57make it to make itself out less quickly or do you think the evening to solve
0:42:02this problem is one thing they could do that like you talk about raising the
0:42:06prices being seen as a dick move well this is also kind of a dick move but
0:42:10it's one with economic precedent and its letter last as they can just do it
0:42:14airlines doing over book and the reason I think this will work out with them is
0:42:18that except for the keynote which I maybe maybe including keynote like you
0:42:24see how the herd thins out as head start to come into effect and it's been far
0:42:29even just like late in the day when people are just like going on fumes and
0:42:33they just they just cant you know going in more I think you could probably over
0:42:39any maybe this fire codes and stuff like that or whatever but that they're
0:42:42limiting them but I think you could over book it and with the exception of a few
0:42:45choke points
0:42:47continue to be OK because really with the exception of like I know this
0:42:52because I'm I'm there in every session like a crazy person you know
0:42:57most people are not really things out it during certain points and so I feel like
0:43:02they hit that's one way to get around the city somewhere tickets you know so
0:43:05well as many tickets as he even if you think it's gonna be crazy that I don't
0:43:09want to be like the classroom sizes are gonna be to join whenever I think it
0:43:13will still work out because those rooms are not a capacity in the middle of the
0:43:16week and some boring session as you know I don't know why I think you could
0:43:20probably get maybe 20% more tickets sold that way not even more that somethin but
0:43:26because I'm not saying this is gonna be a doubling in size is just over the
0:43:30problem is that the the the popular or mainstream sessions really are filled up
0:43:37to capacity and a lot of time and they do not have to wait on line for you know
0:43:42twenty minutes or a half hour before the session starts and you get in there and
0:43:46you can't even sit down and there's like only standing room of people backing up
0:43:49in the back like 10 sessions like that and they duplicate them they're they're
0:43:54addressing that was like the other one son on one day and then once I get two
0:43:58days later whatever like this is all in service of not doing the things out by
0:44:02Southwest Division I always keep going to bigger bigger venues like it that way
0:44:06across the entire city right so you know you can't are just going to like even
0:44:11bigger Convention Center in a different city and just get bigger and bigger but
0:44:14can you can you get something out of the can you do something to improve things
0:44:18keeping the same conference center and everything I think you can get a little
0:44:22bit more about our booking and wonder you know this year maybe just some
0:44:27paying attention but I don't think so I think this is actually happening this
0:44:31year it seems like Apple pessimism is at an all-time high of just the company's
0:44:37prospects that the effect of competition but rather the people who go to WWE see
0:44:42right now
0:44:44matter people who are selling popular apps in the App Store me da is probably
0:44:48still pretty darn bullish about iOS in terms of money to make money in terms of
0:44:52you know how much money do we put into this game and how much do we get out
0:44:55keep making the games he say that but it's funny I would agree with you Marco
0:44:59that I've had regular people who are not total dweeb like us come to me and say
0:45:04yes
0:45:04from getting iPhone again when I'm up for a new phone cuz haven't done
0:45:08anything new in awhile yeah you know if your nerd you can say well what we
0:45:13haven't done anything new but to a regular person I mean springboard looks
0:45:16the same as always looked most of these apps mostly Liu Rui button is a UIButton
0:45:21ey labels label all these things look the same table visa tableview granted
0:45:25you have collection views now and haven't seen them use that much come to
0:45:28think of it but it doesn't look flashy anymore and maybe Iowa 71 could do I i
0:45:36dont know I completely agree I'm not saying is I think like you I wouldn't do
0:45:41it the same be able to be like still like a rectangle the screen like us are
0:45:45hovering above the desk by two inches like well there's there's there's
0:45:50there's like the the people who write for The Verge who knows they're never
0:45:54gonna be happy with whatever Apple does that go or actually the writers are good
0:45:59the commenters on the verge are never going to be happy with whatever Apple
0:46:04does its new because they're gonna complain no its not like Android
0:46:07incentive enough in that segment they would they can't satisfy but like Casey
0:46:12I have regular people asking me all the time or talking all the time about about
0:46:18comments that make it sound like all this Apple skepticism in the media
0:46:24actually reflects what they are thinking like it there is no question that
0:46:28Apple's being significantly and severely affected by the attention in the media
0:46:35that it gets and negatively I mean really I have regular people sit like
0:46:41even a week ago I had somebody asked me how I think my getting an iPhone but I
0:46:46heard the iPhone 5s is coming out next month so in a way like I here and every
0:46:50day of course every iPhone but like what you hear like you know they didn't
0:46:55change that much Michael have you seen the iPhone 5 believe me it's a big
0:47:00difference the people I even giving it a shot because they're they're hearing in
0:47:04the media and on the news on the website and everything they're hearing all the
0:47:07stuff about Apple being doomed and not innovating enough I hear regular people
0:47:11have asked me about Samsung for the first time ever in the last six months
0:47:14I've never heard anybody else with Samsung in the last six months I'm now
0:47:17hearing
0:47:18and I think Apple's doing greed but the mainstream culture and the mainstream
0:47:26and rhetoric around Apple is now that they're suffering and that's really
0:47:30damaging them no question so I think there's only two things they could do to
0:47:35to get the regular people ignoring the echo chamber people who don't even know
0:47:40what the verges to get those people who still might come up there and change too
0:47:45much what can you do to bring them home cuz I think like outside outside of the
0:47:50tech nerd circles like there definitely is a medium that perception everything
0:47:54better but like it when someone who doesn't even remember that Apple makes
0:47:58the iPhone or just kind of big windows with the iPhone does when they get the
0:48:00news story like I'm their local news or whatever that there are some problems
0:48:04that's when I start to get this bad feelings what can you do to bring those
0:48:06people out you can't do with new OS overall because no matter how crazy you
0:48:11change springboard about how weird you make things look those people are never
0:48:15going to know that's not how the phone always looked like they don't have
0:48:18compared to that does not impress them that nothing you can get them he thereby
0:48:22making a new product that gets people excited about Apple again
0:48:28insert whatever product you on your television watched her board you know
0:48:32self-driving car space ship anything like that automatically those people
0:48:38like Apple's back at some crazy new thing blah blah blah suddenly the iPhone
0:48:42seems viable again I wouldn't bank on that happening in the capital banking on
0:48:46that happening to get themselves in the second thing I think what actually work
0:48:50and they probably are going to be doing is just make it a big screen damage is
0:48:56damage that sounds internet done that is has a big screen but done that like
0:49:00before you aren't excited about it but now you now you are that is enough of a
0:49:05change that a regular person has its bigger the regular programming notice
0:49:09that change again not that I'm saying a big screen is not a good idea cuz I
0:49:13think it is a good idea but I think that is the type of change
0:49:16far beyond like a radical new UI or something like that that you put on the
0:49:20phone which is much harder to do bigger screen I think can revitalize interest
0:49:27in
0:49:27in the iPhone biggest gainers lower-cost a combination of the two because I mean
0:49:32Apple is behind the screen size wars and we talked about this last time of the
0:49:37resolution of the stuff what they gonna do in that area but those are technical
0:49:41details just bottom line is he someone you know when the Samsung s4 comes out
0:49:45tomorrow whatever day it is going to be the new Galaxy phone its gonna have a
0:49:50big amazing screen there's going to be bigger and more amazing her than the
0:49:55iPhone 5 screen and regular people can see that they look at the iPhone 5 they
0:50:01look at that on the phone and this label that's that's more and more of what they
0:50:04want it looks better looks like Android phones that you know the big thing now
0:50:08is it you know
0:50:09native 1080p 120 like four hundred and sixty dpi or something
0:50:13these are fairly amazing screens they're still pretty ninth in and yes they're
0:50:16much bigger and heavier but like that's what I was up against here I think to
0:50:21revitalize interest in its phone line in particular it's going to have to answer
0:50:25to that and I think that's pretty much all take to get people the ball back
0:50:29rolling on that and then their longer-term problem is you know what's
0:50:32that I speak thing and I kinda figured that out there can do with TVs or
0:50:36watches are however Karzai whatever that's a wonder I wonder a little bit if
0:50:43some of this problem is self created in the sense that you know john even
0:50:47talking for a long time about how poor Apple is at services and if you think
0:50:54about it you know well as Siri was a brand new thing and it was supposed to
0:50:58be amazing and it was supposed to cure all of our problems and it ended up
0:51:02being fraught with problems and it was kind of a disaster but I think I was
0:51:08successful in terms of getting people interested in its that phone you can
0:51:11talk even to people bought it
0:51:13talk to it on the first day played with it and then stopped using it because
0:51:17it's quite alright I it has served its purpose that point I think people come
0:51:21out of it with a generally positive like it's a positive experience I heard this
0:51:26is fun you can talk to I bought this phone you can talk to me my friends at
0:51:29all areas two days talking to it now I don't use anymore but I'm not sore about
0:51:33it like I think basically I think syria with a net positive for the iOS platform
0:51:38in the iPhone in general
0:51:40but but it started positive it may or may not have been deposited yet Apple
0:51:44maps which nobody nobody I mean obviously as nerds we understand kind of
0:51:51the political motivations behind all this but for a regular human you didn't
0:51:55want it in the first place
0:51:56suddenly your phone which you previously loved one of the critical aspects of
0:52:01this phone now socks and you didn't even ask for it and that's why you know I was
0:52:066 adoption from most reports I've looked at david smith's in awhile but you know
0:52:10I was 6 adoption was terrible and so the Google Maps app came out well
0:52:16negative perception certainly in a lot of people holding back but in the grand
0:52:20scheme of things it was it was minimal and it hurt them PR was way more than
0:52:25hurt I was 6 adoption rates I think this is another example of like the positive
0:52:30a Syrian and eventually like it's like man you leave it and this was an initial
0:52:33negative but I think the same phenomena happened in initial negative instead of
0:52:37initial positive but eventually it's like like and now I think by people
0:52:42buying phones like its transition that hurts its transition you know like you
0:52:46know or helps you in the history of the transition to series like wow amazing
0:52:50thing and this helped Apple get people into stores cause people to buy it and
0:52:53then it was fun
0:52:55the transition from you know that a bad thing suddenly this isn't a bad thing
0:53:00and maps are bad and they're going from the maps that were better to the bad
0:53:03ones are just I'm getting bad ones but that trickled off to an anyone buying a
0:53:06phone now you know even though that Apple maps are still not as good as
0:53:11Google Maps is kind of like oh this is just the maps my phone came with and if
0:53:15I don't like them I can try the Google one and you know what's the big deal
0:53:19right so I think maybe those two things cancel each other out but I think going
0:53:23forward neither one of them are a factor except for maybe reputation whisenand
0:53:27nerds I I think like they've they've cleared they cleared the PR disaster
0:53:33maps and Iran to like now that you know we got to see what the next thing is are
0:53:36we gonna have something that's going to be a big negative a big positive they
0:53:39need something for the next phone other than just like it's faster slightly but
0:53:44I know I'm not really sure that anything to do with the next iPhone although I do
0:53:49agree that they need to make screen bigger for at least one of the models
0:53:52are they so
0:53:53just excited to see you know I'm not I'm not entirely sold on the cheaper one
0:53:59idea although we should talk about two and a half you saw so I've been talking
0:54:04about the the the weird new CPU and the Apple TV that was just released updated
0:54:10quietly and shippers has post here up it into our chat thing so that you can see
0:54:16it had a post up that they've been taking apart the CPU and it and they
0:54:22found to my original theory we should talk about it I believe in episode one
0:54:26of the show my original theory was that what you know is originally we thought
0:54:31that they were died shrinking the 85 acts and there's really no good reason
0:54:36for the Apple TV is a need in a five acts yet maybe if they have future model
0:54:41that can do high end games maybe then ok but there was really no good reason for
0:54:4510 if I backs we later found out a couple days ago we found out that it is
0:54:51indeed not an A five experts it's an A five that is somehow a lot smaller than
0:54:55the normally five package show again we speculated ok to die shrink so what we
0:55:00gonna do with the new 85 cause the Apple TV doesn't have an Apple TVs to justify
0:55:06making a whole separate processor for it so now the the most recent news that we
0:55:12have is that the processor and new Apple TV is indeed still in a five is
0:55:19substantially smaller than the regular a five but the reason why is his only has
0:55:24one CPU core instead of two it's still the same process the believe it's a 32
0:55:31nanometer process from Samsung so it still has a manufacturing process just
0:55:37now is only one coroner chip now before with the Apple TV I believe didn't we
0:55:41say they were they were like burning out one course whether it failed by just
0:55:45perfect sense because by the by the time they've been manufacturing do crossword
0:55:50for a five social long time the number of ones that are bomb that have one bad
0:55:55karma them down now has got to be pretty darn low I mean I guess the question of
0:55:59like where they just you know it's inefficient use of the ones that weren't
0:56:02where one car doesn't work rather they are they literally taking them in and
0:56:05and you know burning the fuse is out on the one on one of the course if it was
0:56:10the case that they were trying to get things that one court didn't work
0:56:14presumably the number of those has dwindled now because they really you
0:56:17know they've been making the ship forever so many more like leftovers for
0:56:21it but given how few Apple TVs they sell it would probably still be cheaper to
0:56:26just give him dual core working chips than it would be to make a separate I'm
0:56:31looking at this was the whole reason why the AppleTV CPU changes interesting is
0:56:36the theory that they make so few of these it doesn't justify a custom CPU so
0:56:41therefore whatever CPU they're using in this is probably gonna be put into a
0:56:45future more popular product and so that's that's I think we're considering
0:56:50like what could they make with a small single core a five and that to me
0:56:57screams low-end iPhone or low and iPad Mini I suppose it's possible it's really
0:57:05tough to tell because it's not it's not Herculean effort to and they have been
0:57:11so Mr Apple TV soap making you sing of Corey five just for the Apple tea is not
0:57:15is not crazy crazy they really have been increasing number of these things that
0:57:19they sell and especially if they're whatever they're crazy Grand TV plan it
0:57:25keeps getting pushed off into the future for you know presumably content related
0:57:29reasons that there may be just playing for the future of the Apple TV and
0:57:33unlike the other things that run apps and stuff there's no real reason that
0:57:37year after year the Apple TV has to get tremendously faster or they finally got
0:57:40up to 1080p like what more does it need to do like it shows video in 1080p you
0:57:46can't run apps on it it could be there selling in for the long winter waiting
0:57:51for whatever the heck you know and they want to continue to you know have sixty
0:57:54percent year-over-year growth on the Apple TV or whatever they were happy for
0:57:57their selling a not insignificant number these things maybe now it deserves its
0:58:01own chip not a big deal chip just a single for a five single Corey 544 a
0:58:07cheaper phone I'm wondering how much cheaper does that make it because the
0:58:12cost of a single core fibers dual
0:58:14comes down to the area of the check out and like the big cost components in that
0:58:19things like I have to imagine like the screen the battery the CPU GPU and the
0:58:25case are your big cost components there I'm not sure how much shaving a tiny
0:58:29little bit of cost on the CPU is gonna lie is not going to get you over the
0:58:32line in terms of low-cost
0:58:36I'm not sure I'm not alone but you know if you can shave X percent off of a lot
0:58:41of the key components then that I was gonna say in aggregate in my piano it's
0:58:46conceivable I mean like do we think that the single-core if I was sure other than
0:58:54a low-cost phone I mean motion is not multithreaded so we can kind of look and
0:59:01see a torrid pace for animation is multithreaded ok but most of the things
0:59:06that are releasing that absurd doing for the most part I think we'd be fine with
0:59:12single core for a low end product I think if you look at you know if they're
0:59:18trying to shave off dollars and cents here to try to get down to lower price
0:59:23points for surviving the iPad Mini is probably the more obvious choice here
0:59:27than an iPhone just because the iPhones are still subsidized in most markets so
0:59:31they have more room to play with their wares the iPad Mini it they want to get
0:59:35that down she ended a five is probably even with this with the smaller version
0:59:41I would imagine a five is probably still too much power
0:59:46GB using something like a watch I I don't think that would work but I think
0:59:52it will be fine as a low-end model 44 even the iPhone or the iPad I'll see you
0:59:58think like the iPad Mini I have problems here too because like again I think of
1:00:04you know if they want to push you want to push to have any price down to give
1:00:08an even lower price one where are they going to get where else they gonna pull
1:00:13value out of that cheaper cameras slightly cheaper CPU they can't really
1:00:18give it less battery they can't rely on the contrary if they only have one CPU
1:00:23core they can give it a little bit better
1:00:26like I have I have it easier time thinking that you could shave down a
1:00:32phone because it's it's subsidized that you know that you could you could work
1:00:36it out so that it ends up looking way cheaper to the customer you just have a
1:00:40little bit of cost maybe martin slow I'm not sure how much you can squeeze the
1:00:44many with a single Corey 5 it and I'm also not sure that I've never wants to
1:00:49take any of its products and go backwards in terms of performance you
1:00:54know so can I prove those two alternate theories one of which i think is
1:01:01ridiculous and other i think is marginally ridiculous 24 interrupt you
1:01:06that's probably true so one of the means what if the whole point of this and and
1:01:12one of you guys just inferred it a second ago what is the point of this
1:01:15this chip is physically smaller Zanotti so the whole point was one of the whole
1:01:22point was either to increase battery volume in the same size case or
1:01:26alternatively what if we are finally getting our iPhone Nano that we've we
1:01:30used to talk about constantly and then gave up on if you really want to space
1:01:35back to you you just ranked 29 metres or get in till 2022 space back that's the
1:01:41way to do it you don't get your car and stick the 32 like it if space but you
1:01:46know I'm more inclined to believe the cost is the reason that you take a 32
1:01:50nanometer process that you already have your manufacturers are now have a lot of
1:01:53experience with really good yields not pushing the limits of technology to give
1:01:58me one of the little bit cheaper but if you run into space back if you want to
1:02:02drive by 49 or something you did you get this much easier to get that space but
1:02:07going through a process I mean this
1:02:0920 nanometers seems like it's in the cards for 2013 for Apple products from
1:02:14you know Taiwan Semiconductor or whoever they gonna do that and if the Intel
1:02:19things come through maybe that's not going to happen this year maybe next
1:02:21year but if that isn't just a pipe dream but I think that's the way it space back
1:02:26will you see that that's the easiest way to get space back but it's also more
1:02:31expensive way to get space back is not right but it's a it's an expensive
1:02:35anyway like it's not like you're gonna stick it there
1:02:37forever like that the train is going along and like this is the year that
1:02:41were Apple all the other phone manufacturers are already at 28 or lower
1:02:44the Android big Android guys already have phones that you know I have 20
1:02:48nanometers quad-core things with 1080p screens on them like they're they're
1:02:52outclassing Apple hardware in all respects with the exception of power
1:02:56consumption but they make up for it by having a bigger battery because they
1:02:58have bigger screens right so you know it it's gonna happen anyway Apple's gonna
1:03:03have to make the transition if you gonna do that you wait to put out your iPhone
1:03:06Nano until all your components shrink down and I believe also like shrinking
1:03:11we always talk about the CPUs and GPUs as well and whatever other components
1:03:17inside there not many but there are other ones and some of them I think
1:03:19Anandtech had a good article about the the process used for the cell radios
1:03:24which are limited by their various analog things that go into them but
1:03:28those could stand to be mean that's what you know the first LTE chipsets were not
1:03:33great and sucked up a lot of battery there are other places where you can get
1:03:36some savings by shrinks or just you know even if you had a 20 nanometers CPU of
1:03:40all the rest of your chips are family like 45 are 65 or some crazy size that
1:03:46can make you said as well so there's no bring bring all the internal components
1:03:51of your mobile thing along on a train of continual process shrinks I think you
1:03:56can get to your iPhone Nano with that technique and that's this may be the
1:04:01only way you can get there because otherwise if you just take the internal
1:04:04exile like there's a lot of room left over in the iPhone 5 as it is and just
1:04:08shrinking the screen is not going to have any that's going to hurt you if
1:04:11you're in for a battery in there so I'm not sure the iPhone that it was a
1:04:15concept really makes much sense and if it does I think they'll get there by
1:04:20shrinking not by chopping of course thing to like just demand might not
1:04:25really be there for that I mean people want their smartphone screens to be big
1:04:28and I think I think the any Apple will very well address the marketing people
1:04:34who want to keep it smart phones small with the regular sized iPhone and and I
1:04:40really don't think they're gonna go big only in the product line but I don't
1:04:45think they have to go smaller than the iPhone 5 size really I think they might
1:04:50go
1:04:50a big only I cannot see the iPhone sex having a larger screen than the five and
1:04:57then not offering a small one except for spy still selling the iPhone 5s well the
1:05:00only reason they could the only way they could do that I think would be if the
1:05:04screen was bigger but not like a ton bigger and I'm not expecting that make
1:05:10phablet will but but the problem is if they don't really make a substantial
1:05:14jump that it's not gonna really served him very well in the reasons why they
1:05:19should be the big screen in the first place it's not gonna really stand up
1:05:21well in a store next to these giant Android phones it's not gonna
1:05:25potentially replace the need for an iPad for some people are at least they they
1:05:30would think that they would buy that it would stand up better in the store just
1:05:33a little bit bigger I mean is the question we talked about last week it's
1:05:37like you just make it bigger the same res which is what we also I believe that
1:05:42we completely adequate to give them the boost they need of having something
1:05:45bigger or do you bite the bullet and actually you know whether it's 1080p or
1:05:49pick a new canonical Rezko's about the Hindu konaga residents with the iPad I
1:05:55guarantee you'll do it again sometime in the history of iOS you know before the
1:05:58company goes out of business and heat death of the universe there will be new
1:06:01resolution besides you know 1024 by 768 points and 15 phone is a need to do with
1:06:07the iPhone 5 as well like that will happen is just a question of when the
1:06:11question now is it too soon they just went off on it too soon to that the way
1:06:16generation to pump it out again but that's going to happen and I i could see
1:06:20them doing that sooner rather than later if they start feeling the pinch ya but
1:06:25if they only make one size iPhone then like a magic pill made one size laptop
1:06:30like what size would that be probably 13 right and then then you'll do you miss
1:06:35out on the great value of the 15 in the 1100 if you look at the phones like if
1:06:41they're gonna keep having just one model for the foreseeable future after make
1:06:45the next one bigger say then they're missing out on all the greatness in
1:06:50product design all the sales all the goodwill that would come from the people
1:06:54who would want the smaller phones
1:06:5625 we have now compared to other big funds at least and people who would want
1:07:01even bigger phones like 20 phablets
1:07:03its I think ultimately as this market matures which I think it's pretty safe
1:07:08to say the smartphone market is premature at this point I think they
1:07:13have to go to multiple sizes I was I was on my 2013 to-do list you know putting
1:07:19on diversified the iPhone line and that means not just keep selling the old one
1:07:22as well as your different size so yeah like the reason I say that is not
1:07:27inconceivable that because that's what happens I'm over so long there is one
1:07:30iPhone and there's the older iPhones the older iPhone still our needs and what
1:07:33I've been saying they need to do with diversified line by not doing that by
1:07:36having you know there's actually not a one iPhone there's actually two iPhones
1:07:40and possibly some older one and what if what if they're single Corey five is how
1:07:44they do that you know you can combine them both and say I where diversifying
1:07:49the line we're getting a bigger screen and the way we're diversifying is that
1:07:52the one with the small screen cheap on exactly which would disappoint the
1:07:55people who want a smartphone its full performance with a should feel the same
1:07:58pain that iPod Touch users have had to feel we just want all the good things
1:08:02but you can never get all the good things so that they have so many options
1:08:07for how they can diversify their line with the just wanna do inside there also
1:08:10are trying to do it on cost them in how they come out with three of them I can
1:08:14go right from having one phone to having three funds like it it's conceivable all
1:08:18these things are possible I don't know which one of them it's hard to read what
1:08:22they think the issue is we all think they need a bigger screen does Apple
1:08:26believe that I think at this point probably do some of us think they can
1:08:31benefit from a lower cost one that I can imagine the bean counters Apple going
1:08:34you know it actually that's something that you as a customer but actually we
1:08:38boris for Apple as a business or not gonna do that you know I have a hard
1:08:42time seeing into that calculus so to take this sort of kind of full circle
1:08:49does that mean that in order to continue to what was the Steve Jobs -ism like to
1:08:56know
1:08:56delight and amaze our customers whatever was in order to keep people talk about
1:09:01the iPhone is one really mean what I really mean do they not do a 5s this
1:09:05this year do they instead do either a six or do they do a 5s and a iPhone plus
1:09:12whatever you guys called it
1:09:13is that enough to get something non ex on something unexpected enough to get
1:09:19people talking positively about the iPhone again that's a timing issue I
1:09:23think like if they could they definitely would like to say that right now like if
1:09:27they if they had planned enough in advance and for seeing this like they
1:09:33would definitely do that like maybe like maybe that you know I just don't think
1:09:37that the current situation they find themselves in they planned on 23 years
1:09:43out and that's the kind of planning you have to have to have to say we're going
1:09:46to go from you know this 404 s 55 s cadens actually we're not going to do
1:09:49that with the five were gonna do for for us I'm gonna do 596 start planning now
1:09:53cuz they had they would have to start playing it very long time ago I think
1:09:57they would really benefit from that but they didn't start playing 23 years ago I
1:10:01don't think big they're capable I think like they just got a ship what they have
1:10:05which is going to be a 5s
1:10:06gone and we don't know like the problem is where we have incomplete information
1:10:12so we don't know all the hard stuff like whatever whatever the heck else they're
1:10:16doing this not a phone is not an iPad presumably there's something for several
1:10:21things on various burners in various states of whatever any of those things
1:10:24if they come to a boil
1:10:26you know make this much less of an issue we got the 5s but we also got that Apple
1:10:32hover car no one cares that it's free in five
1:10:34like whatever crazy other things whether it's watches or TV stuff for you know
1:10:40new services are they buy some other company like so many other things can
1:10:45not make this an issue but if there's nothing new for this entire year and
1:10:49they just have the 5s and make all their products better in the way that we
1:10:53always expected to make things better I think that will not be a great year for
1:10:58Apple in terms of their perception in the industry although I would argue that
1:11:04they have liked grover talks a lot about the concept of momentum and I would
1:11:12argue right now russian reaction yet that Apple has so much negative
1:11:18momentum attraction and the press or and people's perceptions of how they're
1:11:22doing they have so much negativity around them right now and and skepticism
1:11:28and doubt that I don't think anything they released this year is going to fix
1:11:32that I don't think it can be fixed they can release a flying unicorn watch
1:11:36toaster tomorrow and and it wouldn't change anybody's mind everyone if they
1:11:42released some new product that was actually good to actually be good that
1:11:48would that would turn it around the only product they will come out of the year
1:11:51and it would just be like a bomb but the only product that they've released in
1:11:55recent memory that everyone thought was good from the start was the iPhone and
1:11:58I'm not ever gonna nothings gonna stop in like net net coming out of it in the
1:12:02same naysayers that everybody having an iPad had them the iPhone is probably
1:12:06have the most positive reception but even that had like oil tonight sporadic
1:12:09but you're not gonna be a phone maker me you know you're not going to just walk
1:12:13in like everything's got the negative it doesn't matter like the net out of that
1:12:16was exciting new thing Apple's exciting doing exciting new thing that's risky
1:12:21and interesting and i wanna know what's going on with it right whereas just keep
1:12:26making better Max and better iPads and iPhones year after year some which are
1:12:33you know are not as interesting as like the best phones from best Android phones
1:12:37that's that's boring and the worst thing I want to be as boring I mean you know
1:12:42if you even if they come with the watch and everyone says it's piece of crap
1:12:45that's more exciting than not coming out with a lot right and the net at the end
1:12:50of the year I think would be positive from that position like everyone hates
1:12:53it but who knows it's kind of crazy and it's got this one interesting thing that
1:12:56we didn't think of it you know
1:12:58uncertainty and excitement is more interesting than just boring iteration
1:13:02of the same things although I don't understand the finance industry like it
1:13:05when they want during iteration when they want a gigantic machine that turns
1:13:08out money but I guess they want explosive growth so they were looking
1:13:11for the next hockey stick graph and the grass for the phones and I pattern on
1:13:15hockey sticky enough for them
1:13:20horses grab some may seem to like their stuff but forgot Pendergraph that should
1:13:27be like wow small smiles looking at growth curve it's great and apples
1:13:30dominate the tablet industry and you know this great things and the story is
1:13:34still Android tablets to surpass iPads next year which may actually be true but
1:13:40it's like you know they have two great products and hockey stick trajectories
1:13:43that the phone and iPad and that's not enough was not enough writers it used
1:13:48those things you look more attractive when they had like no competitors and
1:13:52going back to acacia said earlier this is Ben as we discussed last episode this
1:13:57is like a draft blog post my head for weeks and I just haven't written out but
1:14:01not all over it for you guys here I feel like Apple's next big product you know
1:14:07all the press and maybe the public they wanted to be some gadget they say oh I
1:14:12wanted to be a watch or I want a toaster or I want to have a car that's not a
1:14:19gadget gadget he its people who want her cars are probably people who wants my
1:14:23watch is also so everyone has to be some kind of hardware gadget a TV set to be
1:14:28the problem is boring product ever you know they all these things and there was
1:14:34there is also speaking of grouper good discussion of this on talk show with a
1:14:38guy English and grammar last week but I think Apple's next big product shouldn't
1:14:44be any of those things it should be dramatically improving their services
1:14:50and their software in that order and and i know i mean I know it's not going to
1:14:56happen
1:14:57and it would make anybody except users and nerds happy you know it's not flashy
1:15:03it's not very newsworthy most of the time like it's not gonna it's not going
1:15:08to fix their perception but what their products need the most is significant
1:15:15substantial progress in services and quality of software and that I would
1:15:22much rather they take what they already have what they've already started all
1:15:28these different things they have going on these platforms just make them really
1:15:32great make the services better and improve the quality of the software I
1:15:37would much rather have that much we know that but but you're right that the
1:15:44market does not demand that even though the markets better off with that but the
1:15:48gadget they would see it it's like a shark stop moving my god they're
1:15:53retrenching and in some respects the Apple as like they're a little tiny bit
1:16:00them if they don't think they recognize this from a technical perspective at
1:16:03least expect the perspective that's what the maps thing was about its like the
1:16:08future the future is more of this network in active service things not
1:16:12less we need to take control of this we need to take the reins and you know they
1:16:15screwed up read maps but at least they recognize that is not a tenable
1:16:19long-term strategy to rely on your your most bitter rival for an essential
1:16:25service that your phone provides so you know we all understand why they added
1:16:28him at least this some recognition that they realized that speech recognition
1:16:32could be another similar issue with them not really knowing that technology but
1:16:36if they if they if they woke up one day and fully realized how screwed they are
1:16:43on their inability to network services and how and how important they're going
1:16:47to be in the future they would have to sign themselves up for a multi-year sort
1:16:52of dark period of getting you know figuring that stuff out kind of like the
1:16:57multi-year dark period coming out of the nineties where they had the whole crappy
1:17:00oster they had to read
1:17:02and they had to keep the company in business and then start work on the next
1:17:05big thing and they did you know they came out of it and when gangbusters
1:17:08right they probably need another period like that to get their house in order on
1:17:16the server side stuff because it's not like we're in a future where that
1:17:20service I stuff is going to be less important you know there's no going back
1:17:23and so these need to get really good at it or get really chummy with someone
1:17:27whose interests are aligned with theirs who is good at it and that used to be
1:17:30cool but it's not anymore so you know i mean all these reasons are like people
1:17:34keep saying that was getting slammed for illogical reasons or like oh they making
1:17:39all this money hand over fist walter is crazy and some respects the like the
1:17:44negativity that that is reflected in the the press about them is like cumulation
1:17:52of all the negative things that I had been thinking about Apple had like the
1:17:55past 10 years but at the time I was thinking no one else agree with them
1:17:59like Apple going gangbusters everybody loves it all our products are great and
1:18:02you be like but but service i'd this may be like what are you talking about their
1:18:05stuff you know and now it's kind of all coming home to roost and maybe maybe
1:18:10that's his projection maybe they're they're being negative numbers but I
1:18:13don't think the current negative view of Apple is that crazy I mean it's kind of
1:18:18crazy and term I don't know the details of the finances of evidence like you see
1:18:22they're making tons of money like they're not going out of business
1:18:24they're successful company that will run they have lots of people like all things
1:18:27girly post again and again but the same time I see where all their strategic
1:18:31weaknesses are and I see that it's not like you can snap your fingers and make
1:18:34the strategic weaknesses go away and even making an apple new new Apple TV or
1:18:38a watch does not make all those weaknesses go away just staves off the
1:18:42inevitable for a little bit longer in fact a new gadget or a new platform
1:18:46would probably make a lot of these problems worse because here's here's
1:18:53more things that require software and services they're having trouble keeping
1:18:57up with i mean like they're presumably they're they're reaping the benefits to
1:19:01go groups is like okay well we do have a new TV thing presumably you know it's
1:19:07based on iOS and we can leverage the App Store and we can leverage I club like
1:19:10summary there they are getting a common core of stuff that they work on
1:19:13that makes all their products better it's not like you know they're going to
1:19:16go out and make something totally unrelated where they can use any of
1:19:19their tech or platform so it's a marginal increase but I like the thing
1:19:23that makes us feel bad about us like is like a distraction I could you just get
1:19:27the crap that you have now to work right like stop watch stuff like you just you
1:19:31take it you don't we have this crazy perception that probably isn't rooted in
1:19:34reality of them taken off their triple-a players and putting them on whatever the
1:19:39bigger projects like the best most awesome iPhone people and put them on
1:19:43the upper watch right and like now like you don't put those guys off we need
1:19:47good people like we felt like we had like that when they you know seemingly
1:19:51pulled like the big good awesome important people off Pakistan for a
1:19:54while to be all hands on deck with the you know I S in the App Store just the
1:19:58right business decision but like they have finite resources and we don't want
1:20:02them to be there was nothing on the talk show episode we don't want them to be
1:20:05spread too thin like they don't have an infinite number of Awesometown to people
1:20:09and with with the financials and the share price and everything going down it
1:20:14may be harder to acquire and retain those amazing people so maybe you don't
1:20:19have somebody to spread around is used to mean it's that's a major problem for
1:20:24them is the size of the company is talent wise it's more than it needs to
1:20:30be they have very limited resources they are taking a look at these things and
1:20:34you're right that the business case for pulling a snow leopard Snow Leopard they
1:20:40basically spent what was at eighteen months development of it not adding a
1:20:46lot of user physical features you know the whole the whole message of snow
1:20:49leopard was gonna rebuild a lot of the foundation of this ad things you know
1:20:53really important foundational API's like Grand Central Dispatch gonna really make
1:20:58the foundation better and awesome and fix a lot of bugs rather than adding a
1:21:02whole bunch of new user facing features and mountain lion was kind of like that
1:21:07you know compared to Lyon but I i feel like they need to have something need to
1:21:12have a period like that for the for services and for all there's hope you
1:21:17like a company-wide period of like two years improving the stuff we have but
1:21:23you're right that business wise and market wise
1:21:26that will never be a smart idea to do well they could afford to do it on the
1:21:31Mac because all eyes were on iOS that's true so that's one that's one reprieve I
1:21:35mean there's no excuse for the services because like like I guess you're never
1:21:42gonna be all I clogs that's the nature of services is like an underpinning
1:21:44infrastructure but if they know that their game Jersey third platform but if
1:21:48they if they did I will be off Iowa's briefly and then those guys could do you
1:21:54know Iowa State which will be there Snow Leopard or whatever right but thats I
1:21:58don't think that's going to happen two platforms is plenty for them they're
1:22:03much more likely to me maybe they get away with it and I'm like you know the
1:22:08watch your TV or some other thing where it gets its own Fork of the OS is still
1:22:12iOS based or whatever and then you have time to sort of you know ten down the
1:22:18finalists but I don't think service is a much more dire than than the OS think
1:22:23they're on a pretty good track with the OS revisions I think there are ready and
1:22:28refinement mode on iOS yeah there's a couple of major things they need to add
1:22:32here and there but the service is a really big deal just because it's not
1:22:37something you do by snapping your fingers in like there they can have a
1:22:40snow leopard release of services to cure their problems that's it's much it's a
1:22:43problem that can't be fixed in 12 to 18 months exactly and it requires a lot of
1:22:47substantial changes stansel investments in infrastructure and talented does that
1:22:53and you know really really big shift and big investments that just take a long
1:22:58time even if they were a hundred percent prioritize on that right now right this
1:23:02second that just takes a long time to build up so if they want to do that fast
1:23:06here's my advice to them by Facebook shut down use the talent to have enough
1:23:12money to buy facebook probably not might be closed her big investment to remove
1:23:17facebook from the earth which is it a general good take all those people
1:23:23mostly gonna leave and go off and do other things but enough of them will
1:23:26stay then they know how to do it like they're not Google caliber people but
1:23:31they know how to run a service that people use that has better reliability
1:23:35of an iPod right so yeah that's why I would've
1:23:40think like it they would have bought Twitter me now I don't think it would
1:23:44sell at a price they tried rightfully if they would have bought Twitter they
1:23:47would have had a lot of that type of town a lot of experience and
1:23:51infrastructure I'm not but but not you know certainly probably better than
1:23:57whatever happens doing now
1:23:59mean isn't a lot of iCloud still outsourced to Microsoft as your and I
1:24:04was gonna say exactly that I don't think microsoft is terribly capable as a host
1:24:09on like Amazon whom has become very capable as a host but I wonder and I was
1:24:15going to ask you guys and so you brought it up I wonder if Apple and Microsoft
1:24:19could find a common enemy in Google and perhaps the two of them could from
1:24:23belong together in order to improve their services to the point that they're
1:24:27actually that's kind of what they're doing isn't it like you have to wait for
1:24:33Microsoft to be much to a fallen much even lower than it has now for them to
1:24:38ever because Microsoft is in the same situation as Apple kind of where they
1:24:42both recognize that Google does that server side stuff better just a
1:24:45Microsoft has been in typical Microsoft fashion and much more sort of head down
1:24:51ok this is an area where we are not strong working in true hire you know the
1:24:55guy who did Lotus Notes and we're gonna or revamp our entire service site
1:24:59architecture to be serious about this and like Apple hasn't done all that are
1:25:02these not as publicly who knows what they're doing internally but it's
1:25:05clearly not a top line item you know so I don't see Microsoft as a big win for
1:25:14Apple to cooperate in this regard and I also don't see Microsoft ever stooping
1:25:18to that level and say we're just gonna be your help in the battle against
1:25:21Microsoft Google and Microsoft still wants to be a big player even though we
1:25:26all kind of recognize that it's not going to be well everyone except
1:25:29Microsoft