The Accidental Tech Podcast

60: The Great Odwalla Flavor Change of 2013

 

  Having always knowing this son of a man. Excellent track excellent track. [TS]

  Yeah that was that was my that was my first cassettes that I ever bought was MC Hammer. Yeah I was. [TS]

  Please hammer Don't hurt him. Did you end up having him sign that cassette when you met him many years later. [TS]

  No I did not have it with me in Manhattan and poor planning when he was promoting dance. [TS]

  Did not I did I mind I was promoting tumbler yet is that still thing is dancing I'm still saying I have no clue. [TS]

  I don't I've never even even that day I didn't even look it up. Dance Jam has come to an end. [TS]

  Thank you all for the participation over the years but dance Jam has come to an end. [TS]

  I guess they sunset their brand their with their line and their visions of us with their platform umbrella. [TS]

  I'll just stop just stop you're hurting my ears. John let's talk about how you can sell tickets quickly. [TS]

  Yeah last show we talked about whether how they would sell their very few take it this year of course in the grand [TS]

  tradition of our Wednesday recording of our Friday show Apple announced how they were going to sell tickets after we [TS]

  had a record of the episode so that was fun. [TS]

  So one of the options is a lottery that's what Apple ended up doing and or something back and what are some insane [TS]

  or they didn't think that that was really difficult to do a system that won't crash due to the onslaught of people [TS]

  wanting to buy tickets. [TS]

  And on the previous show I had said that you know this is a bounded problem it's not like Facebook where in theory [TS]

  everyone in the earth with an Internet connection could get an account. [TS]

  There is limited interest [TS]

  and really see how we are trying to think how many people could there possibly be maybe one million is an upper bound a [TS]

  crazy upper bound for the conference or five thousand people [TS]

  and I said Surely someone could design a system that can handle the onslaught of thousand people [TS]

  and basically serve them in on a first come first serve basis. [TS]

  No guarantees you may still get blocked out but it's a way of potentially increasing your odds. Versus a lottery. [TS]

  A truly random lottery where there is no way of increasing your odds doesn't matter [TS]

  when you enter you know doesn't matter what you do you're just one of another. [TS]

  Whole pile of people [TS]

  and so someone said well that's what Google did too because apparently even the mighty Google couldn't put up a service [TS]

  for their I O. [TS]

  Conference so it was stand out so they did a lottery instead I don't think Google did a lottery because they couldn't [TS]

  provide a service that withstood the onslaught. [TS]

  It's conceivable that Google did the same that was made we're underestimating where the demand would be [TS]

  and put a wimpy system out there and it would be system fell down [TS]

  but I think it is entirely within Google's technical expertise to make a system that would allow a million [TS]

  or so people to try to sign up for a conference. All the same time. [TS]

  And as evidence of this someone on Twitter pointed me to Shmoo con I hope I'm pronouncing it correctly yes it could be [TS]

  schmoo can't write as in short for schmooze. [TS]

  From the description on their website it's an annual east coast hacker convention hell bent on offering three days of [TS]

  an interesting atmosphere for demonstrating technology technology exploitation bubble of anyway [TS]

  and it's you know biotech Nereids for techno it's presumably it's a small conference [TS]

  but they did pretty much what I described on the previous show which is like well just make something simple [TS]

  and straightforward with their I think fancy unit and have a system whereby every just floods it all at once [TS]

  and everyone you know first come first serve and that's all there is to it and it's not a guarantee [TS]

  and you could still be the very first person to click the button so I get a ticket because of the vagaries of the way [TS]

  servers work but at least you're increasing your odds in a service don't fall down. [TS]

  And this shook and I was a small [TS]

  and that what they did is they did a series of rounds where they would release six hundred fifty tickets at once like [TS]

  you know and I don't know how long the rounds were separated by maybe an hour whatever [TS]

  and then if you get your as if you reserve your spot then you have like five minutes to check out [TS]

  or something like that and if you decide not to buy the ticket it goes back into the pool [TS]

  and everyone who didn't make it into didn't get a reservation gets put in a queue for anything that's coming you know [TS]

  that any tickets to people don't buy and they do a series of. Sounds or whatever. [TS]

  So anyway I'm I'm you know the person who was haranguing about this on Twitter was telling me that you know in a [TS]

  slightly condescending tone that is no what I was talking about. [TS]

  I'm I'm pretty sure after what twenty years of doing web development I know what is [TS]

  and isn't possible in web development [TS]

  and it is possible to make a system that gives you slightly increased odds of getting a ticket if you if you are one of [TS]

  the first people willing to click the button again. [TS]

  No guarantees is not going to be perfect but you can make a server that doesn't crash under this kind of load. [TS]

  And apparently these people have done it and I was you know they were going back and forth [TS]

  and what about this there was a lot of goalpost moving and hemming and hawing [TS]

  but the bottom line is that I think Apple and Google both had slightly more financial [TS]

  and technical resources than Shmoo con so eventual calm is doing six hundred fifty ticket rounds so you could see Apple [TS]

  could just use the schmooze on technology which is probably one Linux server [TS]

  and one programmer they could use that technology to do like seven or eight rounds and Philip [TS]

  or you know they could use a little bit of the billions of dollars they have [TS]

  and do something similar anyway regardless of you know this in the previous show at a lottery is by far the best system [TS]

  for Apple and Apple tends to do what's best for Apple [TS]

  and they did what was best for Apple so the law kind of moot point [TS]

  but I want to bring it up again because there is an actual example right down to the sort of very simple text only not [TS]

  very fancy looking stuff written I think by one one or two people who were there were saying this is on Twitter. [TS]

  So it can be done. [TS]

  Honestly I would love the chance to try to write something like that just because like I would take it as a just like [TS]

  the Whenever there's a big key note that is not live stream that everybody clogs the hell out of the various blogs that [TS]

  have live chat transcripts of what's going on. [TS]

  I think I was trying to be cool to attempt to design one of those things [TS]

  and see like how how much is to have to remember all those things crashing Ars Technica have the same problem because I [TS]

  kept trying different vendors. [TS]

  They hired someone named Lee who was a programmer [TS]

  and he by himself wrote the new Ars Technica system for handling live blogs [TS]

  and they've been using it ever since with no problems one person probably a couple months of development. [TS]

  So there you go. [TS]

  Oh yeah I mean it's like if you if you custom tailored to exactly your needs and no more [TS]

  and you do it right taking advantage of things like you know S three and CD ends to alleviate a lot of the load [TS]

  and you know the spreading out the load stuff like that you can you can do it they can be really cool anyway so like I [TS]

  think this kind of thing like I would love the chance to design this kind of system [TS]

  and see like how like couldn't handle the rush from a five thousand ticket conference of you know fifty thousand people [TS]

  trying to get into it [TS]

  or whatever whatever the number might be if you were in a class like a college course about this topic that this would [TS]

  be one of like your homework assignments or one of like your mid term project [TS]

  or whatever you know design a system that could withstand X. Y. [TS]

  Never had like a test harness that was subject your system to the stresses newbie you have some given amount of [TS]

  hardware that you had to use efficiently [TS]

  or whatever like it's it doesn't get much more straightforward than this like you know so you don't have to do the [TS]

  purchase part just to the reservation part like that is almost the simplest possible problem you could have no big red [TS]

  I didn't like. Let me try using no J.S. Let me try using a no S.Q.L. [TS]

  Database let me use a relational database let me try it with flat files on which I would share a memory like you could [TS]

  I think of using a database at all you already lost. [TS]

  I mean my solution would be cash [TS]

  and using it in the atomic operations within memcache cleverly to to make it basically an all them cash illusion that [TS]

  the exercise would be like within a given set of hardware all these different technologies. [TS]

  How do how well do they take advantage of the hardware or don't they you know [TS]

  and you probably don't like more harder than you need [TS]

  but like you would have to have something that scale the horizontal it like it's a good object lesson because it's it's [TS]

  a very simple thing that you're trying to do actually talk about how they have scaling way down the road. [TS]

  But anyway continuing for a little bit quick topic right in then do you want to talk about. [TS]

  How anything else regarding the sign up process specifically like the follow up area. [TS]

  I don't know yet but we have to say how we all did in the D.C. [TS]

  Lottery but I don't have any more follow up on this plan thing. [TS]

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  and you collaborate on one folder [TS]

  and collaborate on a project in those files always I mean think about how big they are. [TS]

  You know minus time it takes to actually transfer them. [TS]

  So your data with transporter is secure it's never stored on cloud servers you know you don't have to worry about like [TS]

  you know if it's your own Dropbox and Dropbox has access to it [TS]

  and you know maybe government stuff might get in the way with transporter your data is stored on your hard drive it in [TS]

  your house [TS]

  when data is transferred is transferred directly between transporters end to end encryption is used so there's no. [TS]

  But in the middle who can read it all the let's talk about the Hartley by going to few minutes [TS]

  but I'm pretty sure Hardy said they were not vulnerable to that. [TS]

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  or Store dot com to buy these things don't forget to use coupon code A.T.P. [TS]

  To get ten percent off thanks a lot the transporter for sponsoring our show once again. [TS]

  All right so we should probably talk about D.C. Tickets and what came of that. [TS]

  So all three of us registered for tickets we were registered for the opportunity of spend sixteen hundred dollars. [TS]

  Marco did you get a ticket. [TS]

  I won the chance to spend six hundred dollars and I took that chance there [TS]

  and I too want a chance to spend six hundred dollars [TS]

  and thankfully since I'm gainfully employed Unlike you I used works money to spend six hundred dollars. [TS]

  John how did you fare. I did not get a golden ticket. [TS]

  I got a set of e-mail an hour [TS]

  and a half after the Suppose a deadline that unfortunately you cannot win a chance to spend six hundred dollars. [TS]

  Try again next year. [TS]

  This genuinely makes me extremely sad [TS]

  and I know this probably doesn't come across as genuine because I am very excited to have gotten a ticket [TS]

  but I almost not quite [TS]

  but almost wish that of the three of us you are one to get the ticket because I think it takes the most encouragement [TS]

  for you to get out there justifiably I should add. [TS]

  And so I feel like the universe has kind of wronged all of us by not allowing you to win the lottery. [TS]

  I wish your work was paying for my ticket [TS]

  and the I also you know because because I mean you know you look around at the at the rate of people you hear from on [TS]

  Twitter people you follow it at the rate of how many of them got rejected. [TS]

  I would say roughly speaking I would guess maybe one in ten got in. [TS]

  Of people that I follow or heard about or from yeah I would say the same thing [TS]

  and it's funny because before the tickets went on Survivor before the lottery ended I had plucked out of thin air [TS]

  and you know I betcha it's about fifty thousand people because I knew a lot of right and I should say a lot [TS]

  but I knew a handful of people that I didn't think or they didn't think that they would go if they got a ticket [TS]

  but what harm is it in throwing your name in the hat. You know there's no there's no penalty for that really. [TS]

  And so I would agree that of the people I saw it was about one in ten [TS]

  and given that it's about a five thousand person conference even I can handle that math says it's about fifty thousand [TS]

  people. What did you think John. [TS]

  Right after the announcement it seemed to me like it was you had a fifty fifty shot because I would say roughly half [TS]

  the people in the twenty three were saying I got one and didn't [TS]

  but then later on I start hearing about like Whole blocks of people who are like oh yeah everybody in our ten person [TS]

  company applied and none of us got tickets so that started. [TS]

  Now that I knew beforehand if you were to ask me I would say like ten to one or twenty to one [TS]

  but then afterwards I was thinking maybe it's only like two or three to one. [TS]

  But it's so hard to tell [TS]

  but I don't think we have a good sample size because you don't know everybody who's in maybe only the winners are [TS]

  saying yea they got them instead of being set or they didn't. I'm not even sure Apple will give us numbers. [TS]

  I suppose like in the W.E.C. [TS]

  Keynote in the beginning they're big part [TS]

  but they talk about all their numbers that they're proud of will be like welcome to have you received so popular the [TS]

  blah blah blah. You know maybe they'll throw something out there but in the end it doesn't matter too much. [TS]

  I think I mean like if it was like a hundred [TS]

  or a thousand to one I think we can ballpark it you know it's somewhere between you know two to one ten to one twenty [TS]

  one but I would be really surprised if it's hundred one. It seems like it's much lower than that. Yeah I mean it's. [TS]

  I feel kind of sad for everyone who didn't get one [TS]

  and that's why I didn't say anything on Twitter about whether I got one or not. [TS]

  And really the only reason I even agreed to talk about it here is that everyone's asking us [TS]

  but I feel guilty that I got one not guilty not to not take it. So if I ever is guilty. [TS]

  Do people ask me for the show that if I want to talk about whether I got my [TS]

  or not because there are two things at play one is that some people who got the chance to buy a ticket take it chose [TS]

  not to know people who did that because I was asking them if they could somehow transfer their ticket to me I don't [TS]

  think there's a way to do that I think if you got the chance to buy a ticket [TS]

  and you choose not to buy it well then you choose not to buy those tickets go back into a pool somewhere [TS]

  and presumably Apple will disperse them to people who didn't win the lottery the first time. [TS]

  So there is that glimmer of hope for me [TS]

  and the second part is the glimmer of hope that someone inside Apple knows who I am [TS]

  and says oh we should get that guy take it and some people might give me a hard time about that [TS]

  or some people think that I should feel bad that it somehow because I have this amount of fame from writing these [TS]

  reviews or whatever that someone inside Apple recognized my name [TS]

  and say I'll give him one of our pool tickets to be reserved or whatever [TS]

  but I think that's perfectly valid because for example like what. Why do. [TS]

  Certain journalists get tickets and other ones don't depending on your publications [TS]

  or because of your readership is it because of your fame is because the wife you Apple just chooses which people in the [TS]

  press that they like and give them press passes to the Keynote [TS]

  and we're going to get a process of the keynote of course [TS]

  but for many years lots of other people didn't get press passes and then they did get them [TS]

  and then they didn't get them and it's like it's whoever Apple takes about the likes of you [TS]

  and people inside Apple like you you get nice things from Apple if they don't like you [TS]

  or don't know you don't get nice things. [TS]

  I have limited control over that and hopefully you know over doing writing reviews that people Apple might read them. [TS]

  I might they might know who I am or whatever [TS]

  but you know it's not I don't feel guilty if I get special treatment because of that for the same reason. [TS]

  You know John group we shouldn't feel guilty that he gets a press pass so I go oh you've got a press guys who you run [TS]

  during final Yeah that's why he got a press pass like you know it makes perfect sense to me [TS]

  but also to point out what the press pass is which is important. [TS]

  Like [TS]

  when Gruber gets a press pass those press passes are only good for the keynote they're after the keynote that's it. [TS]

  They kick you out. [TS]

  So the press even if you had a press pass it wouldn't really help for your purposes because your purposes are you [TS]

  actually go to the sessions the whole week to learn stuff for your review [TS]

  and if you had a press pass from you know via ours [TS]

  or for either means for the keynote that really wouldn't help you at all because it would only be for that morning [TS]

  which you can watch anytime and anywhere anyway and most of the stuff that you would talk about [TS]

  or you know going to the lads asking questions talking to the engineers the press pass wouldn't lie to do any of that [TS]

  stuff. [TS]

  Yeah if I had to choose like you know I mean the president was I'm not I'm not being press of the king you know talked [TS]

  hours about [TS]

  and I told ours like if you get a press pass use it for people who are going to report on the keynote because I'm not [TS]

  going to report on the keynote and you can use that's what you use the press test of the process is useless to me. [TS]

  I need the pass to the entire conference I go to sessions every single day for the entire week. [TS]

  So you know while Ovi fund to go to the Keynote and be in there or whatever you know. [TS]

  A press fair I would never take a press pass away from someone who's actually going there to report. [TS]

  Whereas people like oh you're taking a pass away from a real developer. [TS]

  I feel like I'm going to just as many sessions of the quote unquote real developer and I'm paying attention [TS]

  and I'm taking notes and I'm using that information to do something what I'm doing is not writing a program [TS]

  but I don't think it's any less of a practical useful thing for me to go to all those sessions [TS]

  and take all those notes [TS]

  and synthesize all the data so I feel no guilt in sort of oh you're taking a pass from someone who's a developer if [TS]

  somehow I managed to get a pass. [TS]

  You can be sure that I'm going sometime between taking that thousand going dollars sessions like Asia do. [TS]

  If I don't know well what can you do. Yeah I think you know there's always every year we even thought it was last year. [TS]

  Every year you look around and you talk to people there and [TS]

  and there's always people who get in who you can be pretty much after five minutes talking [TS]

  and you can pretty much tell like yeah they didn't really need to be like people who just really aren't into it like [TS]

  into macro US development and also don't want to be into it [TS]

  and they're just they're like because their company was willing to send them in they happened to get a ticket [TS]

  or something like It's like you know you shouldn't feel bad about it like if you're if you're at all interested in this [TS]

  world of of these ecosystems if you're at all interested you should not feel bad taking it take it for it because [TS]

  there's you know yeah there are a lot of people who are interested who don't get tickets but like you [TS]

  or you're not the one person keeping all those people out. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  and I honestly like the videos really do help like if I don't get a ticket why it's not so bad this year not calamitous [TS]

  to my review hopefully as a disseminator announce that they released eight of us ten is like a week after seeing which [TS]

  case we're all screwed. [TS]

  They released the videos in a timely manner now so it's not so bad for me to not be there to sit through the sessions. [TS]

  Now it depends on what they announce in the year [TS]

  or so for example in certain past years they've announced technologies [TS]

  and stuff that I've spent multiple hours talking to that's just. People about ad W W D C. [TS]

  That really heavily informed my review and helped me make it better [TS]

  and those are some of the you know like from the outside if you look at my reviews like maybe it looks like all this [TS]

  one sort of one undifferentiated soup of information [TS]

  but I know the president of nation that I never would have known had I not been physically had received [TS]

  but now I'm not physically there. [TS]

  The sessions have tons of information too so it's not the end of the world from our view. [TS]

  There are always the end of the world my view is always about the now it's for the release date because that tells me [TS]

  how much time I have to write the thing but you know it's fun to go out there for a week it's fun to see people [TS]

  and I like being in the sessions like there's something about being in the room even for things like the State of the [TS]

  unions in the keynote being in that room gives you a better idea of like what the vibe is than watching the videos [TS]

  because the videos are so now that either they're manipulated [TS]

  but they're post processed in a way that like it doesn't feel like it does in the room in the room you can get a sense [TS]

  of what people really think about the going on for good or bad and any of these announcements [TS]

  and POTUS talk whispering to the people next to you [TS]

  or whatever like it's a whole it's whole thing I'll be really be sad if I don't manage to get a ticket [TS]

  but again what can you do. Yeah in the videos they dig first of all they don't show the presenter. [TS]

  Like the old it's just the pictures only of the slides [TS]

  but they also cut out like if there's any any periods of applause or laughter. [TS]

  They'll actually cut that out for a time because they try to make them faster right. [TS]

  Yeah but it's like being there live gets you all that stuff. No question and that's great and if there is Q. [TS]

  and A which there really rarely is these days but if there is Q. [TS]

  and A That's almost always cut out of the video as well [TS]

  but the videos have the advantage of being able to skim through being able to rewind to be able to play it faster than [TS]

  one expiate because the actual pace of the presenter speaking is very slow. [TS]

  So everyone can get it and you know even if even if your English isn't that great [TS]

  or even if you're even if you're a slow note taker you can still follow along which is very nice [TS]

  and accommodating of them. But it really is nice once you get home and you can. [TS]

  Videos to be able to skim through and play them like one point five X. or One point six X. [TS]

  and and Get through a lot more a lot faster or you can skip over sections that you already know about [TS]

  or sections that aren't relevant to you. [TS]

  Stuff like that you know timely release of the videos is so much more important than getting a ticket in terms of you [TS]

  know getting the information out to me very views because [TS]

  when they weren't timely I had to be in there taking notes like a demon because as soon as they change that slide I was [TS]

  never going to see those words again for God knows how many months [TS]

  and so like this is my only chance to type that literally like transcribing the slide the many times I took pictures of [TS]

  the slides like I can't come because I was going to take a picture like it was a bad situation now like for the past [TS]

  two years when they've been so good with the video it's like to relax you know because you know [TS]

  when the slides are going to be a look at those lives in a couple days anyway you'll be fine. [TS]

  And it's just so much nicer [TS]

  and then you can write down what you really should be writing down is like your thoughts that you know your synthesis [TS]

  of the information you're receiving or points that occur to your question is you want to ask and even if there's no Q. [TS]

  and A There's always the bunch of nerds gather around the presenter at the end of the thing [TS]

  and if you really have a pressing question you you know take note of that presenter [TS]

  and hunt them down later in the week or just go up there and stand [TS]

  and try to ask any question after the session is over. [TS]

  I mean that's actually one of my if one of my tips for them to be seen [TS]

  and I start doing myself is even if I don't have a question I'll just go up there and stand there [TS]

  and listen to everyone else's questions [TS]

  and the answers that they get because a lot of times like the the mob presenter at the end answering questions from [TS]

  crazy people you can get a lot of information out of that that is useful that you know maybe there are some questions [TS]

  you didn't think to ask but it actually is useful information. [TS]

  So I always end up there is listen even if I don't say so what do you guys think will happen this coming Monday at five [TS]

  Pacific which is when the deadline is for those who won the lottery to actually commit [TS]

  and reward Apple for their winning the lottery with six hundred dollars you know what do they do with those excess [TS]

  tickets to the start doling them out to John Surtees So like we all hope. [TS]

  Do they do a second run lottery like they've never said anything about a waiting list what do you suspect is going to [TS]

  happen. Let's start with John. [TS]

  I assume they're going to do another random disbursement [TS]

  and if you're one of the lucky few you will get an e-mail that says I know we told you before you can go take it [TS]

  but one is available if you'd like to but you have until X. [TS]

  Date [TS]

  but I don't think they'll send out more negative e-mails like that I won't get a second email telling me a bunch of new [TS]

  tickets I really want to be I wouldn't bother but you don't just want to be there later. [TS]

  That would be so cruel that would be amazing. [TS]

  That's that's what I suspect that the lucky people kind of like what happened in that year [TS]

  when everyone is like have purchased things in their car like they just went to those people [TS]

  and said hey it looks like you tried to buy taken didn't get it if you still want to like it [TS]

  and I think that makes sense for the way they would do this. [TS]

  Well so last year and the year before like you know when they've sold out rapidly and probably before that too [TS]

  but Apple's developer relations people have always had some tickets to give away. [TS]

  Like if somebody really important [TS]

  or really deserving didn't get a ticket they could like email their friends at Apple [TS]

  and like hey would you consider me and sometimes that works sometimes it didn't. [TS]

  So there's always been this pool of tickets that that might be given away you know as the developer relations people [TS]

  you know at their discretion or to like important corporate clients or whatever the case may be [TS]

  or you know good you know good stories from students or young people or whatever else so that my guess is when [TS]

  when the number of tickets that are unclaimed becomes you know established if I'm really really really high like over [TS]

  you know I mean there's about five thousand tickets if let's say that number is over a thousand if over a thousand of [TS]

  them are unclaimed. That weren't already reserved to be given away at their discretion. [TS]

  Maybe they might do it in the RAM drawing [TS]

  but honestly I would assume that whatever pool is not a claim to the random lottery that just gets added to their pool [TS]

  of discretionary tickets that they can give. [TS]

  Way say I thought I figured they had their discretionary pool was already pretty big [TS]

  and that's why I thought they would do this a second random thing is that I thought they already had a discussion April [TS]

  that was never even put up for possibility and there are saving those like. [TS]

  I mean again this is why the system is great for Apple we have no idea how they distributed tickets was a truly random. [TS]

  Did they pin down like OK we got to make sure these X. [TS]

  Number of people from the Microsoft Office team get in there and these people from Adobe [TS]

  and like you know the people who who have business relationships these people for me have to go I can imagine of [TS]

  everyone who got shut out like I don't see that happening right. [TS]

  So surely there you know [TS]

  and like it could be that the entire thing was like that like that was like a large portion of the pool could have been [TS]

  discretionary so they pinned down all their discretionary first and then to everybody else random [TS]

  and that's why I think if these people don't buy again they will have already made sure that the people they care about [TS]

  got them and then just do a second random thing. But none of us know that's the beauty and beauty of the system. [TS]

  Apple can do whatever they want and from the outside reaches all have to assume it is entirely random and fair [TS]

  and from what I've seen like it's always you can always do pattern matching in kind of a conspiracy theories like Oh no [TS]

  nobody from rogue amoeba got one not all Apple doesn't like Rogue Mima therefore they're they're being shunned [TS]

  but until we know what the total number of people trying to buy tickets was like What are the odds that all seven [TS]

  people from Rogan who didn't get it. Probably pretty good. [TS]

  I mean you know like [TS]

  and you know I don't want the other I think I think we're probably like in the show the two of the three of us got [TS]

  tickets and I don't think it was because someone was trying to give people or maybe just us the luck of the draw. [TS]

  So someone is better at probability than I am can calculate the odds that any specific group of people all didn't get [TS]

  tickets but I have a feeling that it's impossible to tell from the outside of whether it was truly random. [TS]

  I mean I think that at least some part I think the part that's been given away so far was random because you know not [TS]

  only looking around and just seeing it totally what we see around us [TS]

  but they use the word random everywhere they used it on the site. [TS]

  If they use it in both e-mails confirm [TS]

  and reject like they use the word random so many times it would be really weird to say random so much if that portion [TS]

  of the tickets was not given only randomly You know Apple's way is not to lie. [TS]

  It's just to withhold [TS]

  or not specify so I would imagine this was actually random Now they could have randomly given away thirty five hundred [TS]

  and kept fifteen hundred for themselves for discretionary use who knows. Yeah and I feel like it. [TS]

  It leaves some portion has to be random because how else do you explain away me getting a ticket and not John. [TS]

  As much as I'm excited about it I think it's pretty safe. [TS]

  There's a pretty simple argument that the community at large would be better seeing a better O.-S. [TS]

  Time review then if I am able to go and talk about it on A.T.P. [TS]

  So I then it seems clear to me at least a portion was random [TS]

  and well like the other weddings they could use for example like here's a things I'd imagine if they were going to do a [TS]

  non-random dispersal any randomly you know pseudo randomly where they use the built in rand and put a defiant seed in [TS]

  or something [TS]

  but anyway I think there's many things that can weigh in there which could be like have you seen before if you have [TS]

  your odds go down if you haven't your odds go up because they want some portion of the people to be like new people do [TS]

  you have an app in the App Store. He does I don't right. [TS]

  How long have you had a developer account how many bugs have you filed like all sorts of criteria you can imagine [TS]

  coming up with this crazy algorithm to cut away to try to like we want some percentage of new people. [TS]

  Some percentage of people who are long time developers we don't [TS]

  but if you just want to give someone else a chance like you can imagine trying to cover the algorithm [TS]

  and just getting that into the engine and letting it spin [TS]

  and saying you know it's not deterministic it's just waiting your chances based on the criteria [TS]

  or it could be entirely random like again we don't know. But like it seems like it's pretty fair. [TS]

  Like I don't see any rhyme or reason to the people who got them good and got them [TS]

  and I think anything that I am seeing [TS]

  or can try to convince myself of it's because like you know the jewels were produced pattern matching machines [TS]

  and I'll try to apply whatever you know or try to apply a narrative to anything through. [TS]

  And it will always be some patterns that we see in the noise [TS]

  but yeah I'm I'm pretty darn certain that they have a reasonably large pool of discretionary ones that they are sort of [TS]

  pinning down on the people they definitely want to come and I am not receiving on that group nor do I expect to be [TS]

  nor should I be I was hoping that I can you know you got one of the dregs but people through than to buy tickets. [TS]

  I think also I mean I haven't heard of anybody getting a discretionary ticket offered to them yet they're probably at [TS]

  least waiting until this timeout period ends so they know how many they have which is one of the reasons why I think [TS]

  why these aren't going to be really randomize that there that's going to be added to the discretionary pool. [TS]

  Well I mean like used to go to transfer them like there wasn't like a reservation a purchase that used to be that you [TS]

  could buy them but then you could transfer it as an asset within your A.D.C. [TS]

  Things over in past years there was lots of sort of horse trading going on of transferring these things around from one [TS]

  person to the other. But that's not possible here as far as I know overall are you guys. [TS]

  Obviously you know because we had different results. [TS]

  Our opinion of this is probably biased but overall how happy are you with this system that they did. [TS]

  I don't love it but I can't conceive of a better system that isn't me selecting all my friends [TS]

  and giving you know like I don't. [TS]

  I wish there were something that worked out better selfishly in the sense that you know I wouldn't. [TS]

  I'm very happy I got to take it and I'm happy you did but I wish John did [TS]

  but if you look at the bigger picture I can't I can't conceive of a system wherein I think it's more fair [TS]

  and also more agreeable to Apple as John has said many many many times. [TS]

  I think a lottery or even a lottery with some allotment on the side is about as fair as you can get. [TS]

  Yeah I also I mean again like I was picked this time. [TS]

  So it's kind of I don't know how valid his opinion is but you know that's why. [TS]

  Said last week [TS]

  when we were speaking about what they would do I said this is me be my preferred system even if I didn't win because I [TS]

  think this is again it's like you know you can think of all these different ways to try to alleviate the problem of way [TS]

  too many people wanting to be in a conference that really can't and probably shouldn't grow larger. [TS]

  But I really do think this is the best way that they could have done it [TS]

  and it worked flawlessly I got to give them credit. [TS]

  The weather service was perfectly fine possibly as a result of the E. Mail delivery pace. [TS]

  The check out process was lightning fast and fine like everything the whole thing worked fine. [TS]

  It worked exactly as they designed it it seems and I don't know. [TS]

  I really think they did the best they could and it worked. It worked as well as it could have. [TS]

  My opinion last show [TS]

  and it's unchanged I like the idea that people who are more enthusiastic about going can somehow increase their odds [TS]

  not guarantee themselves a spot not block out other people but you know like [TS]

  but just like increase their odds slightly that whole thing of ever and sitting around waiting for a coffee [TS]

  and clicking on a button. [TS]

  Maybe that's not the best way to allow people to increase their odds [TS]

  but it's a reasonable way because you are expressing your maniacal enthusiasm for wanting to go. [TS]

  By doing that and you are slightly increasing your odds by doing it [TS]

  and so system that Apple controls entirely You don't have a good way. [TS]

  At the time of purchase to increase your odds the only way you can increase your odds is by you know doing something [TS]

  over the course of two decades to put you into the good graces of Apple which is much harder to do. A day before. [TS]

  So you know. [TS]

  I would've said it even if I got to take it this time because I like you know it's sort of the powerlessness of like [TS]

  you know all I can do is put my little ticket into this hat and then just wait. [TS]

  And I guess you know there's no way for me to to express that I want to go to this more than somebody else [TS]

  and surely I want to go to this more than at least one or two other people. So there's no way for me to to. [TS]

  My God I find I find it like a controlled setting an apple I'm sure if I have a lack of control delicious and lovely [TS]

  but I do really quickly before Marco tells us about something cool. [TS]

  So John what I think you're saying is in a perfect John Syracuse take a distribution world Apple would do what they did [TS]

  in the first few years of me going anyway where they randomly out of the blue I guess so that was last year was years [TS]

  prior. [TS]

  Out of the blue they just let the tickets go and everyone has to jump on and stomp on their servers [TS]

  and try to get in before the servers crumble so no no that was that that was no good because of the people who live in [TS]

  time zones and stuff like you know our enthusiastic you are to AM where you are is not fair. [TS]

  OK So so what would you say then saw what I was going to say was let's assume the servers can handle that kind of [TS]

  impact which I know was laughable to begin with. [TS]

  Assuming the servers can handle it you would still do like twenty thirteen where they pre-announce What time is it. [TS]

  Pre-announce the time [TS]

  and date I mean someone's going to go through it anyway because it's going to be three in the morning [TS]

  and somewhere on Earth one thing goes over it a bit like you have to pick a time. [TS]

  I mean you can even do it by region by time if they want to be fair [TS]

  or like this this hemisphere this time zone release tickets in blocks like they have a ways to control basically you [TS]

  know what time I was going to be [TS]

  and you express you express your desire to go by being there hovering over the button at the exact moment [TS]

  and even if they all saw it in five seconds if you were one of the people who put that button within that five seconds [TS]

  and you got lucky because again it's not a guarantee you know due to the magic of concurrency [TS]

  and everything at the very least you increase your odds versus someone who just rolled in thirty seconds later [TS]

  or forgot about it or sent a reminder [TS]

  but didn't get a chance you know I mean like it's not great it's not a great way to express your enthusiasm it's not a [TS]

  perfect system but it is a way to increase your odds and the only thing you need is like that you've never been. [TS]

  My boy I have never been to see I keep hearing about it sounds really great I really really want to go. [TS]

  All you gotta do is make that decision sometime before the date that they announce and sit there [TS]

  and your mouse button and click your little thing to your point and that doesn't make sense. [TS]

  So why don't you tell us more about something that's cool [TS]

  but I'd also like to get you guys thinking is W W D C The way it is today. [TS]

  The right way to accomplish what they're trying to accomplish. [TS]

  But before that new relic is an all in one web app performance management tool it lets you see performance from the end [TS]

  user experience through your servers and down to each line of your server side code. [TS]

  So our friends a new relic asked us to take a minute [TS]

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  They're sending a shout out to the developers software geeks the code jockeys to those brave few who see things [TS]

  differently. High fives to all you rule breakers and disruptors. [TS]

  Here's to working nights to wear an oversized concentration enhancing headphones hey you know they got me there upon [TS]

  your furrowed brow as I don't know from furrowed that that's like when you're like tense angry looking right [TS]

  when a brother opens in the middle. You know I'm not usually for but I do always wear giant headphones. [TS]

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  experience and your business is more successful. That's a win win right. [TS]

  So a new relic monitors every move your application makes across the entire stack. [TS]

  They can show you what's happening right now you can zero in on problems quickly with transaction tracing S.Q.L. [TS]

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  Performance analytics application topology mapping and deployment history markers [TS]

  and comparison than even half the things are but they sound really cool. Just signed up a new relit dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

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  and even node has a meter on there on the ball here that's all the cool stuff all the cool kids using one of those [TS]

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  Little surplus mediately [TS]

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  and optimizing your performance. Once again new relicts dot com slash A.T.P. For a free thirty day trial. [TS]

  Check it out thanks a lot to new relic for sponsoring our show so work I am not involved with our application [TS]

  performance management group but we do have one and we use several different tools [TS]

  but I can sell you with my hand in my heart that new relic is one of our favorites [TS]

  and although I've not used it personally I know that my my guys and girls at work who have used it really do like it. [TS]

  So you should check it out. [TS]

  So before the break I had asked you guys are cute you guys up to ask how it is going to be do you see the right answer [TS]

  for for accomplishing what Apple is setting out to accomplish with the conference and if not what should we do [TS]

  when I bring this up because I've gone to a couple of Twitter discussions about how out of D.C. [TS]

  Is fundamentally broken [TS]

  and this shouldn't go on they should make it so much bigger other Mosconi have much more space this is terrible oh my [TS]

  god level and I just don't see how he would be the same anymore if only anything changed about it. [TS]

  So I don't I don't love the system the way it is but I don't begrudge it either. [TS]

  Marco do you feel like it's OK the way it is and if not what would you do. [TS]

  There are ways they could improve it certainly [TS]

  but I think overall there's a reason why it pretty much hasn't changed in years. [TS]

  You know it's in many years I've been going since two thousand and nine [TS]

  and I know it was different you know various points in the past before then but since I've gone in. [TS]

  From two dozen nine forward. [TS]

  It's been pretty much the exact same the entire time they've you know they've they've had minor improvements to certain [TS]

  things the last year of the Odwalla flavors changed and that to me for a loop. [TS]

  I can have the ones that banana in them and so every year there's like one flavor I can have and [TS]

  and say that that sucked because they remove the good one last year besides that they also patrolled it a lot more. [TS]

  Did you notice they didn't release the Odwalla refrigerator as often. Exactly which was too bad. [TS]

  Exactly but you know besides you had while flavor changed the Great a while flavor changed twenty thirteen [TS]

  or the worse I might add it was for those of Pan allergies [TS]

  but besides that you know they're trying to alleviate this with things like releasing the videos really really quickly [TS]

  and make them available to everyone not just ten days which there are a couple of things to change I think a few years [TS]

  back and and having the tech talk all around the country for free that are like you know like one day many devotees [TS]

  and what's interesting the tech talks they split up into game and non game tracks [TS]

  and so that's one thing you could do maybe is people you know have have basically two parallel conferences [TS]

  or two sequential conferences one focused for game developers and technologies they use [TS]

  and one focused on Abdel verse because that that actually is a pretty pretty effective bisection of the market not just [TS]

  because you know so many apps are games and so many apps aren't games [TS]

  and the like there's enough people on both sides to pack those conferences full and it's a pretty good division [TS]

  but also because there's there's good subject matter division there that there's a whole lot of stuff like almost all [TS]

  of the interface U.I. Stuff widget stuff like game developers almost never use those things. [TS]

  So you know so much of that like so much of the like if if if I was we should actually have an I was eight. [TS]

  Action slash wishlist segment at some point but probably before Debussy would be nice [TS]

  but you know like if if they had something like better in or after an occasion [TS]

  and sharing features like the like the Windows contract to the end or intense [TS]

  or vice versa whatever whatever the match is up there if they had something like that then that's again game developers [TS]

  probably wouldn't use that. Game developers need a lot more stuff about media and G.L. [TS]

  and There's some things that are common like networking frameworks that that's common you know memory management [TS]

  profiling tools stuff like that. Most of that is coming between the two worlds but there's so much stuff that isn't. [TS]

  Whereas if you if you took pretty much any other division like you know Macs versus I.I.S. [TS]

  Even is a pretty bad division these days because there's not that much stuff exclusive to one [TS]

  or the other anymore that at least that's worth talking about at the B.B.C. So there's all that. [TS]

  But then you know what if they do something like what if they announce an i Watch or some kind of new platform. [TS]

  You know do they do that at the conference or the game conference [TS]

  and you know do you know which one covers which you can see there or there are problems with that approach as well. [TS]

  So I don't really know what else they could do. [TS]

  I think they're already doing what they can which is you know sells man tickets as they can [TS]

  and try to reduce demand in slightly meaningful ways like I know a lot of people. [TS]

  And this this began a little bit last year but this year I'm seeing it more a lot of the people I know [TS]

  when I was a community didn't even try to get tickets that they just like I will you know what I'll just I'll save the [TS]

  six hundred dollars I'll go out there anyway. [TS]

  I have all the social aspects and all the you know business meetings and networking you know. [TS]

  Most of it that you get that I can do and I'll just like you know hang out with some friends every day [TS]

  and watch the videos that come out every day [TS]

  and I think by having the videos come out like right then rather than you know only a couple years ago the videos [TS]

  coming out. [TS]

  A week after the conference was revolutionary because it used to be months that they would come a month after the [TS]

  Congress to come out and in a couple years ago it was a week and then last year it was like half a day [TS]

  and that changed everything I think because now it is totally plausible to go out there [TS]

  and watch the videos during the week in the in the week of the conference while you're out there without actually [TS]

  attending it and I know a lot of people who chose to do that even before the new with the I think they didn't even try. [TS]

  So I think they're doing an OK job of managing it. [TS]

  So I have one problem with what you just said which is how do you acquire these videos if you're not sitting in the [TS]

  cafeteria area at Moscone because they're pretty big and hotel life I socks [TS]

  and you don't want to be downloading gigabytes of video over and L.T.E. [TS]

  Connection unless you're somehow you know rich enough to afford a ninety gig connection that I I have I don't know what [TS]

  people do with that you know I assume. [TS]

  I mean I sure wouldn't do it in the past I've never done a lot of stuff until I've gotten it I have to hear it for the [TS]

  exact reason because I was contemplating going even without a ticket before I knew whether or not I would get a ticket. [TS]

  And the one problem I had with my grand master plan grand master plan was I could spend the day watching the videos [TS]

  and thus it wouldn't really be last time. [TS]

  But I didn't know how to get the videos because I put a wife my socks always even in a place like San Francisco where [TS]

  you would assume that half the internet runs through it some way somehow. [TS]

  Hotel life eye is still terrible so I would wonder if there was a way to do that [TS]

  or maybe maybe one of the answers to make them more livable is to allow people into the cafeteria area during not [TS]

  eating times I know there's a million logistical issues there but my point is give give. [TS]

  The John Surtees of the world not to pick on you John but give you a way to get these videos with a quickness. [TS]

  Without having to download them over you know to life. [TS]

  Well they just need to extend their wife I don't work outside a thing like I think you can can you current wife IMO [TS]

  chairman of the why find the big giant lobby but it seems like the sort of the exterior walls of the building. [TS]

  Stop [TS]

  or if you if I was like in line with my i Pod Touch could I get the wife I that's in there is the password as always [TS]

  you know you get the password from someone you know is it you see and then get on the beery see why fine at work [TS]

  and presumably that will suffice for you to download a bunch of idiots [TS]

  and go in on the hunt a couple cares that you did [TS]

  but well they often will block big download files like always they always block the betas that that that they make the [TS]

  blood has been down the river why fight because they don't want the wife a clogged up or they're going down [TS]

  and he's like to get files so they I think they might block the videos as well [TS]

  but I mean if you know someone who's going to be in there the easiest solution is to just have them down with [TS]

  everything onto a U.S.B. Stick and hand to you it's a really good point. [TS]

  Yeah I mean it's like there are ways to do it [TS]

  and there's always some place where you can find my file just because we don't live there and hotel with wife I sell [TS]

  but it doesn't mean there's no why fine San Francisco like so I don't know someplace there has I mean the worst case I [TS]

  mean like for us again so I could you know like we go to the Macworld office [TS]

  and mooch off their connection could that you know there's always something you can do especially with all these [TS]

  alternative conferences popping up or whatever I don't think that that [TS]

  and I was going to same thing Marco said that I know a lot of people who have gone in many past years both this year [TS]

  and last year we just chose not even trying to buy a ticket because they figure the value they're going to get for [TS]

  they're going to get from you know the socialising in the videos [TS]

  and a lot of them already know a lot of people inside Apple [TS]

  and they're like well I'll see that person outside the conference I don't need to be in the conference to go talk to [TS]

  that guy because I don't like how all the time and I'm going to talk to him in person [TS]

  and doesn't have to be at the beach every see the videos being moved up it is a big win. [TS]

  and the tech talks are also a big win because what you get out of W.B.C. Is like the M. [TS]

  The ration disturbing that everybody who's raised a developer in a timely manner covers that interaction with Apple [TS]

  people. [TS]

  Tech talks kind of cover that [TS]

  and I think that's the part that's most difficult to scale because for every moment those Apple people are talking to [TS]

  developers they're not doing whatever it is that they're supposed to do in the drop is a lot of times people give these [TS]

  presentations are like you know the lead architect for the whatever system is going to go up there [TS]

  and give a presentation about it it's not like a you know custom trained P.R. [TS]

  Guy who just ten generally knows about the topic like these are subject matter experts so you can have that. [TS]

  Touring the country for a year telling you about core data because someone needs to go work on core data like they [TS]

  really need to work in court. [TS]

  So so there's that tension is always going to be there [TS]

  and there's probably always going to be more demand for that face to face time with Apple employees because who [TS]

  wouldn't want to like every single person or to think of any platform like I write Playstation games [TS]

  and I would really love to talk to the person who works on the disk subsystem for the Playstation four. [TS]

  Can I get some face time with him or her you six hundred dollars ball. [TS]

  Every Play Station developer can have face time with that guy he's a busy guy you've got stuff to do you know so that [TS]

  tension low is be there and there's nothing about having a better conference or better conference schedule [TS]

  or more confidence that will ever solve that tension. It just doesn't scale that way. [TS]

  There are too many developers for any popular platform to each one of those people to have personal contact with the [TS]

  engineer engineers who work on their resources and they're most interested in are what's most vexing them. [TS]

  That's life you've got to figure it out yourself. [TS]

  You know in some way having as much contact as we do is especially precious in the Apple community because Apple is so [TS]

  close and tight lipped and like this may be your only chance to talk to these people in an official capacity [TS]

  and we all know it's true. [TS]

  People inside Apple are more forthcoming in the environment to see you know talking about topics that they would [TS]

  probably never even email you about but they'll talk to you in person about it. [TS]

  Every see that revealing super secrets [TS]

  and telling you what the next holographic eyewash levitation device seem to be tell you like you know well that A.P.I. [TS]

  Is the way. It's because of X. Y. [TS]

  and The story and I will give you some insight into how it works and let you work about it [TS]

  but then maybe they would have sent over an email because unlike Eric Schmidt to understand that e-mails will leave a [TS]

  paper trail quote unquote [TS]

  and they should probably not do that like they're just more open so I think Apple is doing not the best it can [TS]

  but it has made tremendous strides in the past several years with the tech talks in a time they release a video so I [TS]

  give them full marks because they used to drive me nuts that I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to. [TS]

  I couldn't go to every city because well I couldn't go I didn't want to go there you see because I didn't go travelling [TS]

  if I didn't go [TS]

  but I did get the videos I mean like To my right here I have a big metal ten two thousand three hundred [TS]

  and it's filled with D.V.D.'s that used to be the way I went to W D C N A You become a month later in this terrible so [TS]

  we're so far from that still think there are things that they should improve [TS]

  but I would not scale this conference up any more the way I would try to scale up the How Do developers get face time [TS]

  with Apple engineers as I would just have more concerts spare like there's more concerts more conferences spread around [TS]

  like tech talk or maybe too Davide really sees because of the third thing I didn't talk about it. [TS]

  Apple has chosen this time to announce their a lot of their big products but I think you could have another D.C. [TS]

  Like maybe two of these a year in a different location maybe different content where you say there's not going to be an [TS]

  announcement there's no keynote no pressure for Apple to come out with something big It's just like this is the the [TS]

  rerun of the same sessions [TS]

  but if you couldn't attend there you can attend this one it's a little bit bigger than a tech talk longer than I [TS]

  thought that's probably the limit of how they can scale it up. [TS]

  I would rather do that than to double the size of this one. [TS]

  And here's an idea what if they did a second one in China every year I was going to say for the app for the games [TS]

  and whatever track in the games one they should have a slide to go really slowly [TS]

  but if you pay more money they'll go to the next slide faster [TS]

  and you can go to another session right after you've gone to. [TS]

  But again if you pay more money you can go to two sessions directly in a row without having a meal between.. [TS]

  If you do stuff like that. Love it. Write anything else about the B.B.C. [TS]

  No I think that's what I really do think that you know they reach what's basically an equilibrium here where you know [TS]

  the event changes very little year to year the ticketing I think will probably change very little year to year from now [TS]

  on I think it's going to be like you know they've they figured out what works as best as it can for them [TS]

  and you know for the world [TS]

  but mostly for them because you know like as John mentioned like you know if you like these you know libraries like [TS]

  core data and auto layout stuff like that ideas are written by like two [TS]

  or three people usually these are very small teams at Apple [TS]

  and so they can't really afford to have all these engineers taking weeks and weeks and weeks beforehand to make [TS]

  and practice and refine these presentations and then you know and then a week not even being at the Apple campus [TS]

  but a week staying up in San Francisco putting on the event answering questions going to labs [TS]

  and everything like it's it's a pretty big drain on Apple to put this conference on so that I don't I just don't think [TS]

  there's a better way that they can really do this. [TS]

  You know there are there are some small things they can improve here and there [TS]

  but overall big picture I don't think we're going to see big changes here because I don't know I think they reasonably [TS]

  can or rather I don't think it was worth it for them. [TS]

  Him I should also mention really quickly that last year I believe it was somebody I don't know who was in charge came [TS]

  up with all to see what was happening right around Moscone or during W D C. [TS]

  And this year they're doing it again it's called all the cons and I believe it's free donations accepted. [TS]

  And if I didn't have a ticket I would very strongly investigate that because I suspect it's going to be pretty good [TS]

  and I heard very good things about it last year. [TS]

  And so that's a nice way for the community to kind of come together and fill in a gap. [TS]

  Yeah I saw Will French tweeted during the giveaway day and ideas you just have to see. [TS]

  Run Run apparel a conference one day behind the real one in Vegas at some giant thing that holds like thirty thousand [TS]

  people and just play the videos. [TS]

  And obviously you know Apple which has a down pretty quickly [TS]

  but I think this is you know now that Apple is making it is available I think organizing probably a large number of [TS]

  small conference small like you know convert alternatives that that might be the way to go. [TS]

  You know if you get to Big Apple probably have a problem with it but if you could have a bunch of small gatherings [TS]

  and they're there informal and noncommercial [TS]

  and everything you know I don't think Apple's really going to go try to police all of them. So that's the way to go. [TS]

  Anyway our final sponsor this week is our friend the back please once again [TS]

  and I'm pretty sure all three of us use that plays right. [TS]

  That's true I do not but I know I know but I mean your take it to John. [TS]

  Yes Seriously I'm pretty sure my dad had ended up on back boys actually so I sort of do buy so Shushan clothes [TS]

  and well most of us he's been tackling this is unlimited unthroned old simple online backup. [TS]

  So it's five dollars a month [TS]

  and there's not a lot they give in this really short trip here because you know they knew I would just talk forever [TS]

  about my own stuff with it. If you don't have online backup you really you really need to get on this. [TS]

  It's all my backup is an amazing insurance policy and complement to [TS]

  or replacement for a local backup for me it's a compliment to like my my favorite kind of backup is I have. [TS]

  Time machine locally and that's for factory stores [TS]

  and historic you know pulling files that I might have deleted an hour ago [TS]

  and then rose oak wrap actually still mean that when we get that back that Time Machine is great for that [TS]

  but time machine you know I've had some issues with in the past a lot of people have it's it's not incredibly reliable [TS]

  it works most of the time but it's not included reliable so it's good to have something else. [TS]

  And back places gravy is because the files are not stored in your house. [TS]

  There's a whole class of problems like fires floods electrical issues power surges lightning strikes theft all sorts of [TS]

  issues where if you just have your computer with an internal or an actual time machine drive [TS]

  or a time machine drive plugged in that's always plodded next to it are in the same outlet as it or whatever else [TS]

  or in the same house as it has all sorts of environmental [TS]

  and people problems that could happen there that will take out your computer and your backups at the same time. [TS]

  That's no good online backup solves that problem [TS]

  and gives you if you had a little nicety So for instance that place is a pretty slick I.O.'s app that lets you access [TS]

  and share your backed up files from anywhere that you are you can just logon to your back place account from your i [TS]

  Phone or your i Pad [TS]

  and you can access your files right there you can restore your files selectively so you know if you just need to pull [TS]

  one file at the backup you can do that and that place keeps it very very simple. [TS]

  There's no add ons no gimmicks no extra charges for different services it's five dollars per computer per month that it [TS]

  could even be less actually if you buy the annual or or bi annual summer biennial plans. [TS]

  But five dollars per month per computer gets you unlimited unthroned old online back up it back please. [TS]

  It's simple use the app is nice it's developed by X. Apple engineers it's very Apple friendly. [TS]

  It's always a different way so as of now I'm running it for I think three years now I've never had a problem running on [TS]

  any version of O S ten. It's fantastic. Go to back Blaze dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  Once again back with unlimited untrodden online backup for just five dollars per month. That leaves icon's last A.T.P. [TS]

  So we should probably talk about this bleeding heart heart bleed thing. This is this is pretty uncool. [TS]

  This is probably the biggest security story of the year [TS]

  and I don't think it has I don't think it has yet grown to be its final size. [TS]

  I think I think we're going to be having fallout from this [TS]

  and realizing the problem might have an even bigger than we thought [TS]

  or that you know important stuff might have been taken during this window that this was open. [TS]

  I think we're going to be seeing fallout from this for a long time. It's a big big problem. [TS]

  So in brief what this bug is is it's a bug an Open S.S.L. Which is the S.S.L. [TS]

  Powering layer for lots of different software usually stuff that runs on Linux on Linux servers usually [TS]

  or where we were hearing about and for instance if you have a website with a view to be S. [TS]

  Enabled and you're running Apache or engine X. [TS]

  As your web server those use open as a cell on their back ends to power the S.S.L. [TS]

  Component so it affects a lot of things [TS]

  and the bug is actually introduced into the software in twenty eleven so even like I run sent to us on my servers which [TS]

  is it's a free a free distribution of Enterprise Linux basically. [TS]

  I know that's not technically correct pleasing OK see that it's close. [TS]

  So send us the reason why you sent to us is because extremely conservative and generally very secure by default. [TS]

  You don't really have to be a security expert to make sense to us reasonably secure you can pretty much leverage the [TS]

  default and be pretty good. So send us in it's. [TS]

  Latest distributions six point five [TS]

  and a few other a few other Linuxes that have you know roughly similar release schedules like the bug was so old that [TS]

  it was actually in the versions that were shipping with the latest literature reasons from a few to a few of these [TS]

  things so that was enterprise one X. [TS]

  Center one of the uban two servers and a couple or so it was it was very on very widely used things so that's Helens [TS]

  but was there and it was only very recently discovered and then it was basically patched immediately [TS]

  but what the bug allowed is for a very maliciously formed T.L.'s request you were able to have the server respond back [TS]

  to you with sixty four K. [TS]

  Of arbitrary memory from its process space and if you kept making requests you get a different sixty four K. [TS]

  and A not sure of the details beyond beyond that level of like exactly how you requested [TS]

  or you know what exactly what memory you were given or why but it was a bad problem and blah blah. [TS]

  It would read the wrong memory and output it back to you. [TS]

  Now the problem is what is in the memory space of the Open S.S.L. Process is the entire web server that's running. [TS]

  So anything process local the web server traffic the like the the biggest problem is the S.S.L. [TS]

  Keys like the private key that the web server is using on its end to encryption decryption the traffic the private key [TS]

  could have been sent back in the response of the to the to the attacker to say hey here's a perfectly so the attacker [TS]

  could Querrey a bunch of servers basically get all these random memory contents back and just dry a bunch of them [TS]

  and try a bunch of the segments from within that as a key [TS]

  and see if it decrypt the traffic because you already have the public key from [TS]

  when you make the connection so it's it's pretty bad. A pretty bad thing now. [TS]

  People are saying you know like there is you know you'd only be life if you get the private key if the server had [TS]

  recently been restarted or something and you know again I don't know the details of all that [TS]

  but the the part that matters is that you could get the private key back plus anything else that was going to the [TS]

  observer process the time including the traffic and if if your application ran in the web server process [TS]

  but I think I think Apache when it runs like my P.H.P. I think it does that fast C.G.I. [TS]

  Should be immune that's a different process anyway. All that was potentially exposed. [TS]

  And so an effect you know because it was in these conservative distributions that are often run on servers because [TS]

  they're conservative because the bug was sold. [TS]

  This was on so many sites I mean they release tools that you could test for [TS]

  and I ran on a bunch of well known sites mio and other people then went on site [TS]

  and I would say about about a quarter of them were actually vulnerable like the morning after it was discovered like we [TS]

  had most of a day to fix things in the patches for all the Linuxes were already out the day before [TS]

  and the next day they were still the major sites that were still vulnerable I mean it's [TS]

  and it isn't just servers it might be appliances it might be if you have a load balancer [TS]

  or if you have a router that runs imbedded Linux [TS]

  and that version of embedded Linux has has this flaw in it like there's all sorts of places this could be it could be [TS]

  on your home right or it could be on your home NES anything that run them bedded Linux [TS]

  and embedded open to sell could could have this [TS]

  and it's a pretty big deal so I don't think it's really hard to know how bad this will be so far [TS]

  but the potential you know we we know that the potential was really bad. [TS]

  What we don't know is how much it was exploited before these holes are are being closed [TS]

  and how long it will be before you told her so. [TS]

  Government and on this is actually pretty bad too because the usefulness of getting the private key. [TS]

  Like at this point is not that useful unless you have a big gigantic catalog of intercepts of encrypted traffic from [TS]

  the past. Because if you have that in theory if you get the private key in that private key was the one that was used. [TS]

  Previously you had these encrypted intercepts of sort of data going flying by that was useless to you [TS]

  but suddenly potentially becomes useful to you because I know I've got the private keys now I can go back [TS]

  and decrypt stuff from the past. [TS]

  And again this this exploit has been out there for a long time so maybe they were integrating it in real time during [TS]

  that [TS]

  but the only kind of party that's likely to have historical encrypted intercepts is like oh that sounds like something [TS]

  the government would do right. [TS]

  Like an individual's not going to do that [TS]

  but the other angle on this is that the other thing is likely to be in memory is post stated from the last post you [TS]

  know what I like on encrypted you know data from forms admissions like passwords [TS]

  and so a lot of people did like let me just run this against yahoo dot com like their mail thing for a couple minutes [TS]

  and you just see people's passwords like crazy because they're you know these crazy strings like in memory query string [TS]

  clearly identifiable as like password equals plaintext password because that was sent in the post data as part of an [TS]

  S.S.L. Forms of measurement someone enter their password to log in the mail. [TS]

  And although the private key may move away from the memory that is the acceptable. [TS]

  People are constantly logging in and so that's constantly in memory there. [TS]

  And what is basically means is that everyone should change every password in every single service they've ever you like [TS]

  if you want to be safe that's the only way to do it. [TS]

  Basically catalog every service that you have a log in for over they all have unique passwords. [TS]

  Check each one with the vulnerability site to see if it's still vulnerable. [TS]

  Once is not vulnerable go to it and change your password [TS]

  and make sure by the way the place they send you to change your password is the same your reality check before [TS]

  but sometimes they send you to a different site to change your password bottom line is all their passwords [TS]

  and every one of our services could now be compromised like that is not not an exaggeration of like that is a plausible [TS]

  worst case scenario that every single web site that was going on. [TS]

  Well someone has your password now on it so you should probably change your password [TS]

  and you know for example like this are affecting you know was vulnerable to this for a short period of time as well. [TS]

  Every single person our tactic has changed all their passwords. [TS]

  I mean you know you just have to like we should all change our passwords as well [TS]

  and not just that you don't actually know whether a site that has close a vulnerability whether they're still using the [TS]

  same private key [TS]

  or not because you can regenerate it if I mean well I guess you could you could if you were a real nerd you could [TS]

  figure it out. [TS]

  This I'm looking at the search you know details but what you really have to do as a site operator [TS]

  or a server operator to to fix this is you have not only close the vulnerability [TS]

  but then you have to you have to revoke [TS]

  and regenerate yourself a ticket from an brand new private key you can even use the same signing request [TS]

  and renew it like in the usual way. [TS]

  People usually really think you have to do a completely new private key because that could have been compromised [TS]

  and I bet a lot of sites just close a vulnerability and haven't replaced their shirts [TS]

  and they might never replace their shirts or they might do it the wrong way [TS]

  and reuse the key you know because it's easier. [TS]

  So there is this actually this could be the repercussions from this could go on for a while they were saying in that is [TS]

  that there is a question so out there I don't know the answer to as to which software [TS]

  and which platforms honors like checks for revoke certificates. [TS]

  A lot of I think the default on a lot of mac browsers [TS]

  and even the key chain like people are tracking like what is my default chrome configured to check for a certificate [TS]

  revocation. [TS]

  Go to your parents now [TS]

  and check maybe it is maybe it isn't if it isn't is it because you change it that way was because that was the default. [TS]

  Same thing with an apple key chain is a thing about checking for Certificate revocation if the client software doesn't [TS]

  check to see if a certificate has been revoked then you're basically open to men in the middle attacks by someone who [TS]

  exploited you know got the private key for a certificate that you know and that web site did all the right things [TS]

  and got a totally innocent of it. With a totally new key and everything is brand new. [TS]

  But that old certificate is still out there [TS]

  and your client software doesn't check whether the certificate you're dealing with is very broke they can still man in [TS]

  Italy. [TS]

  Yeah and you know [TS]

  and you couldn't so many ramification of the this is why I'm saying like I don't think that we have fully seen [TS]

  or realized what this is going to cause yet because OK So yes so far you know people who are on the ball have have [TS]

  almost all patched by now and hopefully they're reissuing their stuff gets and keys. [TS]

  But there's there's going to be people who are vulnerable to this for a long time [TS]

  and if you know Suppose suppose the N.S.A. or Other creepy government agency supposed they didn't know about this. [TS]

  Now there's a very high possibility did [TS]

  and this is one of the reasons why what they do is so destructive to society because security works best [TS]

  when everyone shares their research. If you have these like little fiefdoms of like secrecy like the N.S.A. [TS]

  Which has tons [TS]

  and tons of really advanced people working on really events things basically trying to find holes like this obviously [TS]

  benefits all of society. [TS]

  If when they find a vulnerability they get it fixed they publish it and they you know work to make a patch [TS]

  or they publish their findings for God's sake. [TS]

  You know in in the accepted ways in the security community but they don't do that. [TS]

  They have all this talent all of this potential to help the world [TS]

  and they're instead using it to hurt the world for their own personal gain. [TS]

  That's probably illegal and certainly immoral. I mean that's why what the N.S.A. [TS]

  Does is so offensive to especially to me as a nerd. [TS]

  Also me as a citizen and me as a programmer [TS]

  and me as a human being I mean it's it's so destructive for them to have those resources at their disposal [TS]

  and not help the rest of the techno community. [TS]

  To work together to make more secure systems because Morsi has the systems actually hurt their efforts to spy on US [TS]

  illegally so that you know part of the rant [TS]

  but that's that annoys the crap out of me that they might have known about this but we have no way to know [TS]

  and they could have been exploiting it forever now regardless of whether they knew better already. [TS]

  They sure as hell know about it now. So anything that you know any any thing the N.S.A. [TS]

  Wants to hack that was previously encrypted with it with you know S.S.L. [TS]

  or Anything else they now have a very good chance of being able to intercept that traffic as we know they're able to [TS]

  intercept traffic through various points on the Internet various data centers I.S.P. [TS]

  Cetera that they that they have partners with or whatever [TS]

  or hacked into so we know that they have access to the traffic the raw traffic. [TS]

  Now they came in the middle attack everybody without even knowing. [TS]

  And that's pretty bad I mean before they could do it through other weaknesses now they can do it with the private key [TS]

  as long as they you know as long as they can they can get it now through this whole ability [TS]

  or they already have gotten it so that I think is one of the reasons why this is so so bad is because now you know it's [TS]

  find out that most of the big sites patched already and are going to do it are going to do their their cues correctly. [TS]

  But there's going to be so many smaller sites hardware vendors you know embedded systems developers so many people who [TS]

  aren't going to patch for a while that are now just wide open for being spied on. [TS]

  Yeah and I looked into this bug a little bit [TS]

  and it's not as super obscure as you by I think it is like it's not some kind of exploit where some carefully crafted [TS]

  machine code that only executes on a certain C.P.U. [TS]

  and Chipset causes something to trigger some bug in the way it's not like that type of thing it is entirely [TS]

  straightforward from what I saw on the site I was explaining it's the old story of you know you got some kind of packet [TS]

  that has its length in coded in the packet and. [TS]

  The program is taking that length [TS]

  and using it as an argument to the meme copy command to say OK well they sent me a packet it said you know my [TS]

  information is in the next sixteen bit value my information is in the next bite and and bites [TS]

  and you know do a meme copy from the thing into those areas basically you're taking you're letting users apply data [TS]

  like over H.T.T.P. [TS]

  They send you a number and you read that many bytes into a buffer [TS]

  and you cross it is it over for good like this make that number all ones and then you read sixty five K. [TS]

  Of information when in reality there's not that much information there [TS]

  and you've got your typical buffer overrun like it's straight forward. [TS]

  You can look at the code and say you're taking a number that came from the Internet [TS]

  and using it as an argument to meme copy don't do that it's very bad [TS]

  and it's basically the opposite of buffer overflow. [TS]

  Yeah it's but it's like it's not it's not obfuscated in any kind of way you can you can look at the variable [TS]

  and say wait that just came from the network [TS]

  and here you're using that number two how much remember you're going to read that seems ill advised like it is nothing [TS]

  you know there's no sanity checking on that or anything like that. [TS]

  This gets me of course back to my you know Copeland twenty ten thing is if you had a memory safe language like a lot of [TS]

  people ranting about this is like look humans are never going to be able to write secure software if you have arbitrary [TS]

  access to memory even if it's arbitrary just arbitrary just your own memory space because like it doesn't make any [TS]

  sense it's not it's not a buffer kind of it's not like if you had it done in a memory safe language you wouldn't be [TS]

  able to just run off the end of whatever variable or data structure you had. [TS]

  There's no meme copy command that just says you just give me a starting address and a length and I will just read [TS]

  or write that memory and I don't care what Senator what's there I'll just go run right over it. [TS]

  That doesn't exist in memory safe languages so a lot of the people in the security community like we need to get the [TS]

  base infrastructure that we do our security stuff in off of languages to give your richer access to process memory [TS]

  because we're never going to be perfect like it's impossible to say how does one do that. [TS]

  We all know not to do that or how long to the sit in code open source code how long it has been there [TS]

  and who knows how many of these things are in the closed source code out there it's like we're just not capable of [TS]

  writing programs that are secure in languages that have this feature on the wall I think it is proving it to ourselves [TS]

  and what do we need to do you know we can we can get rid of an entire class of problems not all problems [TS]

  but we know this is definitely a big class of problems that a lot of security exploits. [TS]

  We can get rid of that class of problems with technology that we have now [TS]

  and I guess move on to the next class of terrible security exploits [TS]

  but you know like we hope we can make some progress there. [TS]

  One of the thing too is that this was a bug in the heart beat feature of T.L.'s or protocol or method [TS]

  or whatever which apparently is very rarely used [TS]

  and many of the servers were not vulnerable because they couldn't support it [TS]

  and many of the patches to initially fix it quickly while everyone figure out you know. [TS]

  But what it will eventually be the final fix. [TS]

  Most of the very early patches just turned it off [TS]

  and nothing happened like nothing bad happened because nothing uses it [TS]

  and so it's worth asking why that was unable to roll. [TS]

  Obviously this rarely used feature was going to get a lot less attention from researchers because you know it didn't [TS]

  really come up a lot so it obviously had a stance on it for a long time [TS]

  and this is why this bug was existed for like three years if anyone figured it out. [TS]

  You know what this this should inform decisions about you know why should Apache or engine X. [TS]

  In even unable to spy default Why should Open S.S.L. Even support this. [TS]

  If it's been around for a while nothing uses it. [TS]

  You know this should really impact the default choices that library and application and server vendors make [TS]

  and maybe it maybe it's time you know like one of the ways that you can make an S.S.L. [TS]

  Server more secure is by requiring. [TS]

  Better ciphers and better settings from from connecting clients [TS]

  and one of the ways you can do that would be to like cut off if you kind of support for I E six [TS]

  and some ancient you know client libraries that no one use anymore. [TS]

  If you cut off support by default you can make security better for everyone basically by requiring higher standards for [TS]

  everyone and you can close off on a lot of avenues for attack that way. [TS]

  But it requires cutting off support for really really all things which I guess you talk about X.P. [TS]

  If you want to but you know that that's been a culture in the Apple world for a while. [TS]

  Yeah you know it will be tough supporters I mean it's three years old because I was a little nuff doesn't matter. [TS]

  I think there's some of that server can take as well [TS]

  and obviously they have a more conservative because you know the value system is with the different requirements [TS]

  or could be different environments are completely different [TS]

  but I think they can take some value out of that like it's it's probably not worth enabling something at all that is [TS]

  used by almost nobody anymore. [TS]

  That could be an avenue for attack easier solution for this in that we just need to revisit the specs are they the [TS]

  R.F.C.'s [TS]

  or there are protocols that we use on a regular basis to trim out the features that are in use because like this tons [TS]

  of features that H.T.T.P. That but it's the common browsers and server software don't support them. [TS]

  They just like our half heartedly support and they just don't get used [TS]

  and after a couple of years that are a decade of that it's like looking nobody uses this feature of this protocol. [TS]

  Make next revision of this protocol remove that feature because people keep the feature like I know I have to be [TS]

  compliant with whatever the R.F.C. Is. [TS]

  I support all the features but if nobody ever used that feature just sits over there festering [TS]

  and that's like the perfect place [TS]

  but corrects posters like it's not use an ever increasing fact it's almost never used so we support it because [TS]

  technically part of the protocol and if we want to be compliant and get our server cation [TS]

  and say we fully support the bottled water article we have to do it. [TS]

  So revise the protocol cut out the part so we decide OK. [TS]

  Well use that people just don't do that anymore like even the spec is also it's a little terrorism there from the you [TS]

  know they just don't get used to the common practice that you could cut out headers formats for a start you know old H [TS]

  T V one point no feature is like there I think you can make I mean they're already are working [TS]

  and others are basically a bit like you drop the features that nobody uses [TS]

  and that hopefully lets people finally drop that code that wasn't being run that was possibly riddled with bugs. [TS]

  So also in the news. Dropbox did some stuff today. Time moving on. [TS]

  I totally missed the dropbox story I saw I saw the carousel thing is that is that is are you talking about. [TS]

  That is part of what I'm talking about so they announced a few things firstly they announce the Congolese a race is now [TS]

  on the board and I'm not joking. I saw that as weather and I thought it was a joke. [TS]

  The first thing I asked myself was what why [TS]

  and I guess I read the summary I don't recall where my down Tech Crunch thanks to Panzer but anyways. [TS]

  Somebody theorized Well it's to get them better international relations which I guess because I don't know in what [TS]

  other way she could possibly be qualified to do anything useful for Dropbox [TS]

  but I mean she's a smart lady so maybe I'm underestimating her. [TS]

  Well I mean first of all keep in mind Al Gore was an apple's boardroom. I don't know if he still is but he was. [TS]

  And second of all the president for like one of the politicians to be on tech companies boards for some reason that's a [TS]

  good point but you know and we're pro all of us are over the work people are all talk about this but drop boxes. [TS]

  Biggest competition is Box dot net which has a very very strong position in the enterprise but not [TS]

  and not a very strong position in the consumer world that I think is and it's obviously [TS]

  but that's the universe of Dropbox where Dropbox has huge presence among consumers. [TS]

  As in the business world Dropbox is often used but often blocked [TS]

  and not supported because it's not it's actually pretty funny like in the business world. [TS]

  They use Dropbox constantly which usually is violating their I keep policies as the file store and somewhere else [TS]

  and it's not enterprise probably certified encrypted friendly than a president [TS]

  or the case may be half that's probably B.S. [TS]

  but That's a perception [TS]

  and so Dropbox like it solves such a common so many common problems so well that you know similar to how the i Phone [TS]

  kind of broke in the enterprise from the ground up. That's what Dropbox has been doing. [TS]

  Box dot net has been contacting the opposite problem which is trying to be enterprise friendly as as much as possible [TS]

  and trying trying to get in from the top side and they've been pretty good job of that [TS]

  and so Dropbox I think with you know with a lot of their moves towards business stuff [TS]

  and maybe kind of these arise is more about you know reaching that community look better the role of big business an [TS]

  enterprise that we my guess as to as to her or her importance there [TS]

  but Dropbox probably is reaching for that world as much as they can first of all to defend against Boston at becoming [TS]

  so big that they start encroaching their their consumer business. [TS]

  And second of all because the the enterprise business is just so profitable. [TS]

  If you can get into it I don't think drawbacks of anything to fear from box reaching into the consumer space let me [TS]

  just say that as a user of both third go that is it is definitely enterprise. [TS]

  And I saw a couple stories recently about a box of young some I.P.O. [TS]

  or Some some sort of thing where financial statement came out about the company [TS]

  and Bach spends a tremendous amount of money on like getting into the enterprise on sales and marketing huge amounts. [TS]

  Some people say unsustainable amounts and that's not always a good thing. [TS]

  It's never a good sign when you're spending just tremendous amounts of money to try to grow rapidly. [TS]

  As working to get enterprise contracts we use it at work and everything [TS]

  but the product itself is not is going to drop box. My question about Condi Rice is who came who came to whom K.Z. [TS]

  Like you did. [TS]

  Did she approach the company because you know she's out of her you know government job [TS]

  and she's just looking like you know be on boards or like begetting invest in something [TS]

  or you know I mean like people do that [TS]

  when they leave one career where that was her high profile like I'm going to become a venture capitalist I'm going to [TS]

  get in technology or whatever and they just got to go that way or did they seek her out [TS]

  and saying we need someone with government ties because you know people with those kind of connections in government [TS]

  are extremely useful for all sorts of things I'm sure you know Al Gore [TS]

  or whatever that is like who it would be great to have you on the board you have these connections we think who can [TS]

  help us in our business. Ever is wigged out about like she's a back history defend the N.S.A. [TS]

  and Her whole role in the Bush administration on the Iraq war and now our data is going to be moved by the N.S.A. [TS]

  and It's like I don't think her being there makes your data any more or less likely to be seen by the N.S.A. [TS]

  I think the bottom line is that the N.S.A. [TS]

  Once they don't draw back they probably already have all of it feel any better or worse [TS]

  but it's you know it's not I don't think it affects things one way [TS]

  or the other I don't think she is personally given the N.S.A. [TS]

  and He used any kingdom I don't think she has the kind of access I think she's merely there to provide that private [TS]

  connections that she has in the government world and I think that's mostly a non-story. [TS]

  That's fair impulse if the N.S.A. [TS]

  Really wanted some sort of into Dropbox he think they would use it as an obvious aroud is kind Lisa Rice joining the [TS]

  board. I feel like they would be a little smarter than that. [TS]

  Now they just took us three of us were drawbacks but all stayed and they had everything [TS]

  and I'm sure they already have access to every bite of data in a three if they want to. [TS]

  Fair point the other thing they did was they announced a new app I guess you could and it's an app called Carousel [TS]

  or in this. It is. Firstly it's not a good name. [TS]

  It's like some folks here in Richmond that Marco you know mobile locks they already had an Instagram app for ten called [TS]

  Carousel and the trademark for it and you don't. [TS]

  Yep sounds like it's a great name than someone else already had that great name. [TS]

  Funny how that is I did not really sells a trade module that's exciting. They might be really wealthy soon anyway. [TS]

  But be that as it may it's so it's it's sort of kind of but not really at all in ever Pixy sort of thing for Dropbox [TS]

  and I didn't stall it [TS]

  and it was funny because the first run experience for me went from really really cool to kind of terrible immediately [TS]

  the really really cool part was they have you know an opening screen [TS]

  and you're supposed to slide from bottom to top to get to the next page [TS]

  and the way they had done this one is there were a series of photos on the bottom of the screen kind of just strewn all [TS]

  over the place and as you swipe up words those photos align themselves into an ever pick style like very [TS]

  or quicker style for that matter varying sized grid. [TS]

  So it's kind of implying Oh we're going to organize all your photos I just thought it was really well done. [TS]

  So after they did that my options were a checkbox should've written written down what it read [TS]

  but it was something like backup all my photos to Dropbox and it was a check box and a button that said get started [TS]

  or sign in or something like that. [TS]

  So I don't necessarily want all of my i Phone pictures going to my Dropbox and thus I did not write I wish it's a son [TS]

  or No I that's not the way organs my photos so. [TS]

  Q Bradley chamber so anyway so I I didn't want to check the checkbox and I hit the tap the sign in button and then it. [TS]

  Did a little expand contract to the checkbox basically implying the only way that I can carry on is to go ahead [TS]

  and say All right back up all my pictures to Dropbox I did the exact same thing as you uncheck the checkbox I tried to [TS]

  get the new I realized no I can't use this application unless I let it do that thing that it wants to do which already [TS]

  kind of turns me off. They are asking their telling. [TS]

  Yeah yeah and the reason by the way that I check the check box and then [TS]

  when I do it's because I know in my Dropbox situation is like in like the camera feature I had enabled for a little [TS]

  while when I was playing with it [TS]

  but like I know if I did that I know how many pictures are on my i Phone I don't know many of us pictures are not in my [TS]

  Dropbox pretty much all of them checking that box was going to add gigabytes of data to my Dropbox and I'm almost all. [TS]

  So I did indeed click the checkbox and neither is [TS]

  or was your will be uploading all my photos to my Dropbox So you're presented with what looks sort of like the camera [TS]

  roll and I O. S. [TS]

  Including with the grouping that I believe in or just I was seven there whenever they introduced it so by location [TS]

  and date which I like [TS]

  and on the bottom they have like a old school radio don't actually know what it looks like it looks like the [TS]

  speedometer from an old ozone deal where you have like all the tick marks across the bottom [TS]

  and then like a little needle. So it's like a horizontal speedometer you know what I'm talking about. [TS]

  Totally you know anyways so that's like your date picker thing and what you can do is you can select an entire event [TS]

  or series of photos and you can share them and it shares them in [TS]

  or they imply that they're going to share them is really nifty like ever pics looking kind of way so I thought well let [TS]

  me test this out I want to test this out with myself so I says I shared from my Dropbox account which is that which is [TS]

  associated to my personal email address to my work account [TS]

  and they send this really lovely picture email to my work account [TS]

  and then it says Casey Liss has shared seven hundred photos and videos with you on Carousel [TS]

  and you know you're allowed to put in a little mess. [TS]

  It shows some of them what is a snob I know of them and I go on my computer to you know click on these pictures [TS]

  and basically it says tough melodies get the app so there's no web component whatsoever [TS]

  and I bet if you if you have the app those pictures would be added to your Dropbox counting towards your quota despite [TS]

  the fact that I drop boxes content addressable storage in those photos are not stored more than once which drives me [TS]

  nuts and I believe that's right. [TS]

  So my initial impression went from great to see you to want [TS]

  and so now I'm probably going to leave it to some sort on talking about it I don't know who has so few pictures that [TS]

  they can afford to host them on Dropbox because as we point out many times the transfer at Dropbox mass storage is very [TS]

  expensive like it's not meant to hold terabytes of your data. [TS]

  That's a tremendous amount of money forget about the freakout freakout is enough pictures for you to like take pictures [TS]

  for a month and then your for if you want to live your life [TS]

  and take pictures of your children as they grow over the years you're spending like a huge amount of money per month in [TS]

  Dropbox fees if this is your solution to cameras like people presenting it as an ever picks like solution. [TS]

  It's just not financially feasible or smart to pay that much money. Stories are in my my photo library. [TS]

  You know if we say I got my first digital camera [TS]

  when my son was born he's nine years old as I've nine years little photos they're currently in a five hundred gig drive. [TS]

  Right how much would it cost for me to get five hundred gigs of storage on Dropbox and pay that month after month [TS]

  and it's just going to grow I meant deleting their baby pictures or they get older. [TS]

  Like it's going to grow [TS]

  and I keep getting keep getting cameras that you know take a larger images I'm not I'm shooting RAW is just a peg right. [TS]

  I don't think this is a tenable solution for photo storage units and it works so nicely [TS]

  and easily that it's almost like a trap like I mean I can see why Dropbox likes it like you know people get a free [TS]

  account. [TS]

  Dr act like it's great every picture taken my phone is here I can share with my friends than ever at the start of the [TS]

  myth and you're like Oh well I got to get out of the paid account [TS]

  and then you get your next argument oh I get to pay for the next year in a certain point you just start getting angry [TS]

  bitter Dropbox like Apple with the free i Cloud stuff that's just not enough storage to back up your entire device like [TS]

  it's worse it's worse than if they just charge you a fair price up front for what they want to do [TS]

  and I don't think Dropbox is economical for any mass storage like this like if you ask me what do you keep in your [TS]

  Dropbox you keep like a small set of your important files [TS]

  or your current working set no one uses Dropbox is like their long term archival. [TS]

  All my anything if not all year it's not all your anything I mean it's probably not even all those people text [TS]

  documents or on Dropbox or maybe who are doing that [TS]

  but I think this is not a good solution for the photo problem I think it's a great way to get more people to hit the [TS]

  drop box stores on its way to paid accounts which is probably why Dropbox like yeah. [TS]

  So it's basically yet another photo sharing unthinking solution that is almost but not useful. [TS]

  Pretty much [TS]

  and the other thing is the one place that I think you could potentially Shine is a you know John you have your family [TS]

  over for your son's birthday and everyone has their camera phones or cameras [TS]

  and everyone wants to share each pictures with each other so potentially you could use carousel in order to do that [TS]

  but in my experience I've been happy although not overjoyed with i Cloud photo album sharing whatever it's called [TS]

  and that works sufficiently well as long as you're not sharing it could Julian pictures [TS]

  and I think carousel would do better with sharing a good Julian pictures [TS]

  but for just an you know a handful of really good ones that you know everyone in the family took you can make a shared [TS]

  photo stream album thing. Again I'm getting the terminology wrong. [TS]

  That will get the point across and accomplish what I need. [TS]

  They're for sharing what you always want is you don't want you don't want to impose on the people that you want to [TS]

  share that. [TS]

  As with which basically means that no matter what other cool features you're sharing as there has to be some way with [TS]

  some person with a web browser to see your things no matter what else is like it may be cooler in the app maybe you [TS]

  have photo stream you see a push [TS]

  or whatever there has to be a web way to do it which is you know you have to be able to send someone a euro they have [TS]

  to be able to tap that your eloquent that you're aware of they are and see pictures not install [TS]

  and have not changed their or style S. [TS]

  Not sign up for i Cloud they need to see pictures of you know the magic of Facebook it's like the bottom line is [TS]

  there's a Web site called Facebook you can go there you can see pictures that some people share because we just want to [TS]

  see pictures we don't want to do any of the stuff so I think it's great to be held as integration fact photo stream [TS]

  works really well for my family because of the push notifications [TS]

  and if they're on there I was devised a little notification guns and they swipe it [TS]

  and they're looking at pictures two seconds later. [TS]

  But if I want to send us pictures of someone who doesn't have [TS]

  and I was that I thought an OK first step go to the Apple store like it's not going to happen you need to have a web [TS]

  interface stuff and the fact that as far as Casey was able to turn [TS]

  and that's not the case for Dropbox seems especially terrible because like you can make Public Links from like things [TS]

  in your public folder on Dropbox and those are whether it's as simple [TS]

  and that is just a way to see a thing in Astoria [TS]

  but that seems like an obvious gap in their functionality even if we know the storage limits. [TS]

  Yeah I completely agree so basically all of these announcements today. [TS]

  Give it one tremendous me there was one other relevant thing yesterday I believe that a deal be announced light room [TS]

  for the i Pad and I should disclose that I was on the beta of this [TS]

  but a month ago so obviously I'm a little bit biased because they think I'm special not to put me in the beta so you [TS]

  know I do we've had an interesting set of attempts. [TS]

  You know their their first attempt which was originally called Carousel was Adobe rebel [TS]

  and rebel was like like a sinking sharing kind of collaboration editing kind of service for photos I think are still [TS]

  running it but it seems. Like they've kind of given up on it. [TS]

  Lightroom now has an i Pad app [TS]

  and a sync service so now you could you can use white room to sync between your computer and and i Pad sort of [TS]

  but the reason why didn't you very long is because it's pretty limited. [TS]

  It's it's obviously designed much more to be more like you know working on working on a project in Lightroom on the go [TS]

  that you start on a desktop like you manually move things over [TS]

  and then you might work on your i Pad a little bit then you come back your computer and your editor there whatever. [TS]

  It's not really about your whole library because one of the biggest limitations of it is that first of all the [TS]

  interfaces and the infrastructure of the app or clearly not designed to have tons and tons thousands [TS]

  and thousands of photos being sent. [TS]

  But the biggest problem is you can't sync a smart collection which is like their version of a smart playlist you can [TS]

  only see and you can sink your whole collection. [TS]

  You can only think like basically you know folders that you have to manually move photos made on the photos into so [TS]

  it's not particularly useful because you have to like manually select every photo that you want to be available for [TS]

  sinking in Lightroom before set up on your i Pad which is kind of a fatal deal killer for me. [TS]

  So you again think it's like yet another option for photo thinking [TS]

  and share one that I'm not really sharing with photo sinking between your devices yet another option that kind of [TS]

  but doesn't work the way that most people want and need it to. [TS]

  Every time we talk about those people write and tell us the things that we've talked about [TS]

  and again mention a few of them to someone just email before the show it's created flicker in case anyone still doesn't [TS]

  know flicker are as you apparently one terabyte of storage for free [TS]

  and you get unlimited for a storage if you're grandfathered in with the fire broke out which I think I should have been [TS]

  pretty sure I had a flyer program but who knows. [TS]

  Do you drive from Google gives you also one terabyte of storage for ten dollars a month [TS]

  and the person who tweeted this that's the same the same money run Dropbox if you one tenth the storage. [TS]

  So there are many other more economical options to store to try to store sort of all your photos [TS]

  and I think at this point one terabyte is probably enough if you're not a professional photographer for anybody who has [TS]

  a kid who's not a teenager yet. [TS]

  You know you start from like when you're if you start when your kids are born or if you start with her [TS]

  when digital cameras were popular US But that's again this is going to go up people it's accumulate photos I mean not [TS]

  everyone's as much of a pack rat as I am [TS]

  but like renaming talk to people as an entire like how my feeling about a place which a place like this video is in [TS]

  there too and it's not that I have a lot of videos but one or two videos in ten A.T.P. [TS]

  That adds up really fast even though they're compressed [TS]

  and everything so yeah I mean the people who are sort of selling premium price storage like you know Dropbox [TS]

  and Apple I guess but how much is a cost per gigabyte of stored data on their servers. [TS]

  There is going to have to adjust their prices like things are going to you know storage will keep going up [TS]

  and companies will try to not lower their prices in proportion to that to make their margins a girl over time [TS]

  but this all needs to readjust because we all have lots of digital data [TS]

  and the amount of visual data we drag around behind us and don't want to be specific with pictures [TS]

  and videos I would imagine it just just keeps going up over time so we really need better solutions to this. [TS]

  All right I think we're going to be all right thanks a lot two or three sponsors this week. Back please. [TS]

  New relic and transporter and we will see you next week John. [TS]

  Today during her sister that the Iraqis have two pieces of salt one for each of you already. [TS]

  These are not fought for our podcast. [TS]

  So that's why I didn't go in the fault section there's a fault for other podcasts. [TS]

  Of course one is for Marco So you're tweeting and you are saying that in most of your errors [TS]

  and your programs are from exceptions and bad A.P.I. Calls are not from site fault. [TS]

  No we're going to get into this just like I don't know I mean that's your experience understanding what my experience [TS]

  was [TS]

  but what I want I want to do with double check my experience because it sure seems like all my crashes are due to bad [TS]

  memory actresses. [TS]

  So I just went through my crash logs which is you know which I don't think I've deleted scenes like ten point like [TS]

  they've just been kind to anyway. I went through. [TS]

  Let's see what is three thousand three hundred sixty five crash logs [TS]

  and seventy five point nine six percent of those are due to bad memory access. [TS]

  How many of that was within the last year I don't look at the dates on them. [TS]

  My my theory is that over time the percentage of these things that are that are you know better access [TS]

  or sites all of these things is going down over time because they do a regression analysis. [TS]

  Yeah well because it like my theory is a lot more code that's in application the people are using in writing today. [TS]

  And when you talking about new languages and the need for a new. Language or new A.P.I. [TS]

  That specifically talking about the benefits really is for developing new software so I think like you know you might [TS]

  want to rule out something like Photoshop [TS]

  or Microsoft Office where like that's that's probably there's probably a lot of old coats all around there. [TS]

  I would say look at recent applications the things that have been written with modern A.B.I. [TS]

  As modern stuff [TS]

  and recent crashes to any application so the reason I was looking at all the dough is because if you make a change now. [TS]

  Eventually if you fast forward ten years after that change the steady state will be like this you know I mean like [TS]

  Eventually you will pass through this portal [TS]

  and you will be into the like we are now with memory protection like we now pretty much previously. [TS]

  Very few things American action now pretty much everything does your phone as in every rejection your your I watch is [TS]

  going to have you know I mean like. [TS]

  And so you venture to get into that same steady state and I think what this my crash logs for the X. [TS]

  Number of past year is a reflection of the current steady state. [TS]

  You know even if it's getting better now [TS]

  and I don't have to see it like a graph of like Ode to the frequency go down like it's hard to tell it as one person I [TS]

  was basically checking my own thinking maybe ten percent is it fifty percent seventy five makes me feel like my gut [TS]

  feeling of every time I see a crash log and that feeling hasn't changed over time but like I can I can check [TS]

  and see if I sort them by date. [TS]

  Does the frequency decrease but it could [TS]

  but it was a single person's date it could just be like I stop using the program is crashing all the time [TS]

  and you know doesn't show up anymore [TS]

  or like how many what was the what was the recent encoding bug in the max tax frameworks that somebody likes and you [TS]

  and I am with a bad go to Caribbean it would take I don't like I probably have like a dozen of those in the recent [TS]

  things growing up the average as well [TS]

  and I don't think there is a better memory because I'm not sure probably was because it's probably like overflowing [TS]

  some stupid buffer somewhere probably. [TS]

  Yeah but like you know my theory is basically that over time even even within the same language as libraries [TS]

  and as hardware get better people generally tend to move up a little. [TS]

  But in traction like even like life when I wrote the very first version of the paper for i OS app I wrote all the S.Q. [TS]

  Lite calls directly against the escalate C. A.P.I. and I know the press and I correctly I don't care. [TS]

  And then like within a year I had written it to use more Objective C. [TS]

  Stuff where it stayed for the whole time I owned it and then when I started the magazine is Corday [TS]

  when I started overcast I used F M.T.V. and C. [TS]

  Model so like I I was I've been moving up the stack as time went on because the benefit of writing directly against the [TS]

  C. A.P.I. Was so small on modern hardware and it was so much more code and so much more low level C. [TS]

  Code that had things like worrying about lines of buffers and everything which like I don't think overcast [TS]

  or some audio stuff that has to do that [TS]

  but the vast majority of its code doesn't have to deal with like buffer lanes at all. [TS]

  Like there's nowhere where I'm calling mem copy there's no way I'm calling you know any kind of like anything where [TS]

  that would even matter. [TS]

  And so I think [TS]

  and I think I think it applies to so much software especially in the world that we're in with the Apple world [TS]

  and all this cool mobile stuff all these great frameworks [TS]

  and libraries that are there are building up over time I think there's so much even even though we can do these things [TS]

  in C. [TS]

  and Some maybe maybe an app might have wanted to see calls or [TS]

  or you know I use I had to add key chain support circuits or the log in token securely [TS]

  and rather than writing I just got a really nice cocoa pod called black box that just does it for me [TS]

  and wraps it all in this widely used well tested and pretty honestly pretty small simple A.P.I. [TS]

  So that's like here's here's a chance where I had to use a C. A.P.I. [TS]

  but Instead it has used this already well developed already proven wrapper for it so that's yet more sea buffer [TS]

  checking her I didn't have to write well but some Someone had to write it or like it. [TS]

  Moving a problem down like looking at sector our factor was are these crashes due to something bad that someone wrote. [TS]

  Dealing with memory or do they merely trigger a bug because that you know who wrote F M.T.V. F.T.V. [TS]

  Is written in a line with us for access to memory like at certain point you get down. [TS]

  Yes you need direct access to memory to write like this. The G.P.U. [TS]

  Drivers in the kernel and all the good stuff [TS]

  but like framework code that deals with like putting of the user stuff like you would want at a certain point you would [TS]

  want to not only do you not to have to deal with that stuff [TS]

  but also the framework you're calling because it's easy to to trigger a bug in the framework by you know doing [TS]

  something silly with an A.P.I. [TS]

  and You didn't mess up anything with pointers and you weren't doing anything with range checking [TS]

  or whatever you just use an object to see if you had been passing messages [TS]

  but it just so happens that the combination of perfectly benign information and your senators A.B.I. [TS]

  Triggered a memory location air inside it because it is written in Objective C. [TS]

  You know you keep going down eventually have to get on the low level code [TS]

  but what you want to do is have everybody using C. [TS]

  Code so not only can you not screw up [TS]

  but all the frameworks are calling cancer up until you go down to like OK well this point it is now appropriate that [TS]

  you need direct access to memory [TS]

  and we were saying earlier in the show that life even open as a self like well it's got to be fast it's encryption we [TS]

  have to write that in C. Some part of that probably has to be written in C. [TS]

  but The entire thing like you know it's really you know I would like rust [TS]

  and everything that they're trying to say like we will go you know we're trying to be memory safer or C. [TS]

  Like languages. [TS]

  Even if you're not going to jump all way up to something where you have complete memory safety [TS]

  and I just I just one I did the check I figured it was worth bring up on the show it doesn't mean anything is just one [TS]

  person's thing. Everyone can go look at the crash so I can try to figure it out themselves. [TS]

  I think it's also worth honoring arc a little bit here. [TS]

  In your in your debug it was said that we're talking about we can only think we mentioned we're talking about [TS]

  but we're talking about YOUR percent of people do you know so you kind of glossed over Ark saying it wasn't a big deal [TS]

  I disagree I think it was a very big deal. [TS]

  Well it is a big deal I wrote all about it I think it was a good thing but for this particular issue. [TS]

  Like again getting back to second or facts a lot of those bad memory accesses. [TS]

  I bet a lot of them are attempting to do something on an object that is then either whole they are partially [TS]

  deallocated you know like you know I mean right exactly. [TS]

  ARC helps with that [TS]

  but it's still possible in an arc system to screw that up because of all the like oh are you calling it a C.F. [TS]

  It's different and you got an A to things right when you're writing a block and you forgot to weaken that thing [TS]

  and although you know like or you didn't realize you had a copy of that in the block [TS]

  and you forgot to retain it for the block implicitly retains that thought you didn't have to retain it here [TS]

  but you do like it makes it way way better but it is still possible [TS]

  and it's like in some respects it's more complicated where it's like [TS]

  when I was Emmanuel retain relief you know we see where we thing was now arc is doing tons of regains releases Phormium [TS]

  blocks and a complication if you think you don't have to worry about it you will get bitten [TS]

  and you will never really end up sending a message to a half the allocated object [TS]

  and you will have a memory access area. [TS]

  Well [TS]

  but in the failure mode is is much more likely to be a leak usually through retain cycle through not doing the weak self [TS]

  dance which I love you thing of calling it wealth by the way. [TS]

  Me too I don't know what is everyone else calling it it's just right there it's right in front of its wealth the ETS is [TS]

  right next to the W. [TS]

  I mean all these things all these things do help like arc does help in everything [TS]

  but it's like arc is a great example both like how much benefit we can get from automating some of this [TS]

  and also how you're never going to get all the way there because like anyone who does lots of Arc code it's like in [TS]

  many ways it's so much simpler [TS]

  but it's not the type of thing where you can tell a beginner you don't have to worry about anymore it's like in reality [TS]

  in fact you have to have a complete understanding of retain release because [TS]

  when the time comes for you to develop this weird arc situation you're not going to what the hell is going on unless [TS]

  you understand what arc is doing for you [TS]

  and then once you have that foundational knowledge we can explain to you this obscure education what's really going on [TS]

  because without that then it just becomes like doing you like a Visual Basic Basic programmer no offense to Visual [TS]

  Basic programmers just flailing wildly ingoing like when I type this it works but now a day. [TS]

  Isn't And I don't have a foundation to understand why you still have to understand retain release in order to release [TS]

  arc just saves you a tremendous amount of typing it makes it so much easier to not you know it takes away a lot of [TS]

  drudgery and makes things way so for most people but you're never going to get all the way there. [TS]

  You're never going to get to. If it's like fault it's not your fault and that's that's what I'm trying to do. [TS]

  So totally is just my my insertion in the tweet which I don't think we actually even said the beginning of this [TS]

  diatribe. [TS]

  My assertion your assertion basically is that the vast majority [TS]

  or the majority at least of of crashes are bad memory accesses or through corruption or things like that [TS]

  and my assertion is that in my experience I'm seeing that that's not really a problem. [TS]

  Language has this I have to solve as much as you seem to think they do because the vast majority of the of the crashes [TS]

  that I see in my abs and other apps that run on my stuff are things like assertion failures and I got exceptions. [TS]

  Things that like every language has exceptions like every language has error conditions [TS]

  and if you if you read if you make a new language instead of having a C. [TS]

  Based one Make it is a new language that succeeds that you're still going to have exceptions that are uncaught to have [TS]

  problems in apps like your stuff. [TS]

  Just like a different type of error humans have to write those assertions [TS]

  and the reason humans writer's assertions in languages with the free reign of memory is because they didn't put that [TS]

  assertion there they know that six lines later you're going to scribble in our memory. [TS]

  So that's why they put these aren't there [TS]

  but if you have got to put the assertions there guess what you're scribbling all over memory. [TS]

  And yes an end even in a high level language with memory protection you put a surgeon to make sure your sanity checking [TS]

  your stuff [TS]

  but there's no danger that if I go I forgot to check that assertion to make sure this value is greater than [TS]

  or equal to zero so I don't end up with a negative number. [TS]

  There's no chance that in subsequent lines a negative number will cause you to scribble all remembering [TS]

  or send the contents of your web service process out as the response revealing your private key or anything like that. [TS]

  Now before you skewer me on whatever you're about to skewer me on probably vinyl Where would one go to check one's [TS]

  crash logs if one was so. [TS]

  And I went to the console app [TS]

  and along the left side were on the consulate you can find all the different directories that have the word crash [TS]

  and the whole bunch of like it there [TS]

  and slash library there until the slash library is like I don't read like some some of them are an application specific [TS]

  log directories I just you know found a bunch of directories [TS]

  and recursively grep through them for the various current access failure expected I might just look through them [TS]

  and you'll find one of them [TS]

  and you'll know what the grab for it if I don't go to look at there is do I I would imagine that the error is that you [TS]

  counter well developing app may be different in the areas I encounter when using apps [TS]

  and so there may be something that distinction as well [TS]

  but it's worth checking I just wanted to grasp that distinction is important however [TS]

  when you're talking about the need to make a new language I would say the helping developers during development avoid [TS]

  things like we have memory errors often very hard to find and fix it helping avoid that might be more. [TS]

  Develop an app once more or less. [TS]

  Millions of people use it all over the place would you rather have the openness is openable had something that happened [TS]

  during the development or the something to help the people who had deployed the programming obviously you want both [TS]

  and they're probably like they're tied to each other in various ways [TS]

  but I would much rather have the developer suffer and have the end users not experience crashes than the reverse. [TS]

  I with cases. [TS]

  He got it he knows he knows what he did in the vinyl he knows what he did I just never saw it today [TS]

  and I could not believe he just kept digging yourself in deeper [TS]

  and deeper let's provide context which we didn't do last time apparently. [TS]

  OK so I was on IRA talk with faith in Jason for second time which I am not at all going to gloat about how I was [TS]

  invited back before you were invited back because I'm too much of a not all for that. [TS]

  In any case I was invited on in the comedy of this is I didn't actually hear the episode until after I was on wherein [TS]

  faith and Jason kind of got into a tiff. [TS]

  About head to intuitive about vinyl and Faith had asserted [TS]

  and she is correct that vinyl does indeed sound better on an appropriate stereo then a CD does this stop this stop [TS]

  digging yourself. That's already gone it's already scientifically rock very good if I finish it. Finish your summary. [TS]

  So she had said to Jason No it sounds better and they got and they went back [TS]

  and forth though at the time I didn't know this when I recorded with them they went back and forth [TS]

  and Jason actually summarized it really well after Faith was so far into the rage deep into that I was surprised he [TS]

  didn't plop it in any case what Jason said was Oh you just feel like it's more full in complete sound in Faith said [TS]

  yeah that's pretty much it. Obviously I'm heavily paraphrasing her it's all right. [TS]

  So hold on so so what I had said was Hey Jason I didn't hear the background story all I saw was a few tweets fly by [TS]

  between my cue and faith or faith and Jason and I wanted to weigh in somewhat ignorantly given the context [TS]

  but weigh in and say that having grown up with a really really really good stereo [TS]

  and a house with a father who has just a shed load of vinyl I would completely agree science be damned. [TS]

  That vinyl legitimately does sound better and maybe it's a placebo. [TS]

  Maybe it's all my darn head but I don't care because I believe it in my heart that it sounds way better [TS]

  and faith is right. [TS]

  All right so I have two cables to sell you over here are going to try to try to give a reasonable summary of this are [TS]

  you guys going to attempt I think I mean first of all let me start by saying I'm not an audio expert [TS]

  but I don't think you need to be an expert to get a handle on this topic I think that the main problems on the original [TS]

  of this are between faith and reason which will put in the shadows. [TS]

  Was that as usual they didn't sort of define the boundaries of their discussion in their terms well enough that they [TS]

  were just talking about each other. Here's how it started so like. [TS]

  They were talking about the stupid Pono thing that we talked about of the high quality music from what is [TS]

  and you know young or whoever and you know and you know [TS]

  and Jason asked her if you'd be interested as she said if I you know if I want to if I was after that it's like Oh [TS]

  wouldn't you want us to listen to higher quality audio is like a high I want to higher quality audio just listen to [TS]

  vinyl and that's how it started [TS]

  and I think there's a sort of a foundation as you can see how through the game of telephone you end up with that type [TS]

  of opinion it devolved into like oh you think vinyl is better than this that the other thing there's many many factors [TS]

  at play here [TS]

  but I can start from like again I can get like I don't I can't get specifically technical about this you can look up [TS]

  all the stuff that you want to mark are going to add later but here's here's I think I'm going to bottom line [TS]

  and I think the bottom line is reasonably accurate. [TS]

  When you when instruments make sound like when people play music live right and you capture that sound [TS]

  and you try to take the sound that was in the air when people playing instruments [TS]

  and put it somewhere such you can get the most back from what you heard in that room like the actual sound of his [TS]

  produced CD even just plain CD is more able to capture [TS]

  and reproduce accurately the sounds that are in that room than vinyl. [TS]

  I'm pretty sure [TS]

  and Mark can confirm you want that is just a more less undisputable fact due to the limitations of the medium. Confirm. [TS]

  So that's the problem with a gun and they were talking about vinyl CD of stuff like just ignore everything else [TS]

  and if they like their sound in a room you want to capture that sound [TS]

  and put that sound back out in the world somehow if you want to capture that information. [TS]

  Vinyl has limitations in terms of frequent frequencies that it can accurately reproduce [TS]

  and how well it can you know capture what was in that room. [TS]

  That CD doesn't have right so that I think and you can google that [TS]

  and do all the stuff you want to see what what kind of frequencies can vinyl reproduce and what are the limitations [TS]

  and what is the top and then the bottom end and how well can it produce high for exams versus low frequency sounds [TS]

  and and distortion this is even before you get into like every time you play a vinyl record you're damaging it [TS]

  and all its other things. [TS]

  I'll make a little grooves in wax in illustrating like that fact sits there [TS]

  and flies in the face of all of the discussion of like a vinyl vs C.D.C. [TS]

  Vs mine of his when you're talking about a medium that's different. [TS]

  Now why why could normal good reasonable thinking people come to the conclusion that you know why did they think that [TS]

  vinyl is the highest quality. You know if I want to listen to music with a higher quality than than M P three S. [TS]

  or Cd's always goes in the vinyl why why did you come to that conclusion because there is much more to what music [TS]

  sounds like than just how well it is the medium able to capture sound right and we've talked with some passion. [TS]

  There's a stupid loudness more where they mastered everything for CD [TS]

  and kept cranking up the you know the whatever I don't know the term for it [TS]

  but like if you look at the way inform the way room slowly fills the entire thing the dynamic range between the quiet [TS]

  sex and loud section disappears in the whole song as loud that sounds like crap. [TS]

  They didn't do that in the era [TS]

  when most vinyl was made so vinyl sounds quote unquote better so if you hear the same album on vinyl [TS]

  and CD in the CD one is over compressed and cranked up [TS]

  and the final one is not of course the violin going to sound better [TS]

  but that's not even the same song anymore it's different audio. [TS]

  So that's one reason the vinyl could sound better like legitimately really sound better because it was mastered [TS]

  differently in the early days when they were making vinyl. [TS]

  From what I've read since vinyl has a different frequency response than C.D.'s they would master it as if they were [TS]

  standing at the vinyl like they were over boost the treble [TS]

  or whatever frequencies of Binah would have trouble reproducing they would have to crank those up because they know a [TS]

  lot of those who get muffled by the vinyl and they just take that same master and put on CD [TS]

  and it would sound terrible because she didn't have those limitations I can reproduce the sound accurately in this its [TS]

  a more linear range between them you don't have to say well this travels going how do you know his trouble whatever [TS]

  this trouble's going to get swelled to really need to crank it up or don't worry [TS]

  when we're going to carve the little grooves into the vinyl disc of all sound good. [TS]

  Again if you take the same album from the same master all the CD sounds terrible the vinyl sounds good it's because [TS]

  vinyl is swallowing up half of the things that are there and it's you know the master was made. Your vinyl. [TS]

  All these things can contribute to the idea that vinyl sounds better because in a particular album [TS]

  or a particular song the vinyl recording may be better master [TS]

  or you may simply prefer that those frequencies be attenuated the way they are on vinyl. [TS]

  So and what happens if you don't have all the background and all these handy gritty details. [TS]

  Your experience your lived experience will be when I hear the song on and B three that sounds like crap [TS]

  when I play it on my fancy vinyl things it sounds awesome. [TS]

  Therefore vinyl sounds better and it just game of telephone that over [TS]

  and over again in Austin in the hipster community as is accepted fact that vinyl is higher quality than CD and [TS]

  when I see you can jump through like you jump from something that has a basis in reality all lead to a conclusion that [TS]

  has no basis in reality in fact and you can't say vinyl is better than CD because it is not. [TS]

  Well OK I understand where you're coming. [TS]

  Well it's not where you're coming from I understand what you're saying and by and large I do agree with it [TS]

  but it's more than just I think playing it off as a game of telephone for for both faith [TS]

  and I is not really being fair because both of us have legitimately experienced really good setups in the homes in [TS]

  which we lived at some point or another and in I don't know if I can speak for faith [TS]

  but I know I have listened to a CD and then the exact same song from the exact same hour [TS]

  but you don't know is exact the sort of thing you don't know with the same song you know it could've been mastered [TS]

  differently and there's nothing I can say to you to refute [TS]

  or dispute what you had said about different mastering absolutely could be right about that. [TS]

  But one way or another I can tell you that I've listened to C.D.'s and I've listened to vinyl and be at the mastering [TS]

  or be at the medium and yes the medium is kind of inherently flawed in cracks in the hisses and the pops and whatnot [TS]

  but I don't but now and then the frequency response [TS]

  and in the things that it can in the things that it can reproduce there was sound in the room [TS]

  when people played that music. How many of those sounds can. [TS]

  The recorded and played back by vinyl it is a smaller subset of sounds than CD [TS]

  and I haven't looked at any of the research because market would let me hear very well could be true. [TS]

  I find that a little harder. [TS]

  You got into this on the show as well that you're trying to think of like things that sound reasonable to like oh well [TS]

  it's inherently like analog then stick signals and systems in a school. [TS]

  Yes but that was no analog versus discrete signals. [TS]

  Marco has a good video that you can see about it like I watched that the sampling like it's not here. [TS]

  If you if you still subscribe to it even after seeing the math [TS]

  and taking say dozens of whatever if you don't if that perch you don't find that approach convincing although you [TS]

  should because it's true and an alternative approach. [TS]

  Think of it this way when you take sound [TS]

  and you translate it to carving a little valley in plastic you are inherently taking an analog signal like it you know [TS]

  the music you're recording directly about how it works [TS]

  but so you're recording directly into the grooves in the while you're taking something [TS]

  and you're encoding that signal in a groove in plastic. What do you think has a better resolution. [TS]

  Those samples and bits that you're taking or the variations you can make precisely in grooves in plastic. [TS]

  Like Talk Talk about quantizing in like you know if you if you subscribe to a theory like oh it's inherently continuous [TS]

  function you're sampling How can you ever reproduce there is no single That is B.S. [TS]

  You totally can but think of what you're doing when you're making a groove in vinyl. [TS]

  Do you think oh that can completely accurately encode this information because we can so precisely control how we wage [TS]

  these atoms out of the way [TS]

  and that is vital to make this little valley I mean look at under a microscope is not a precise trail that's been drawn [TS]

  there is nothing more precise than sixteen bit samples and forty four Gilberton No it is not [TS]

  and that's borne out by what kind of frequencies you can get out of that let alone the variations in an individual [TS]

  stamping or carving of vinyl it's it's insanity to think that vinyl as a medium is better then. [TS]

  Digital things mastering is what it's all about. [TS]

  Here's here's how you make things sound good you listen on a really really good system which is usually systems that [TS]

  are like you know really good inexpensive are usually only by upper middle class men in their fifty's [TS]

  and up like my dad right. [TS]

  And these are middle class men in their fifty's and up probably listen to music from the sixty's and seventy's [TS]

  and music from the sixty's [TS]

  and seventy's if you have a CD version of the same thing was probably one of the old crappy cd's that was mastered back [TS]

  when cds were too young as drummers discussing and a lot of the masters were really bad [TS]

  and a lot of the translation to CD were really badly done. [TS]

  It's also possible that you were you know comparing it to things like M P three that were encoded in the late ninety's [TS]

  injuries were new and M P three encoders used to be really really bad [TS]

  and now they're really really good as always are factors now the way you make things sound good is you listen to well [TS]

  recorded music [TS]

  and there's a good chance that old fifty year old men with you know a lot of money with big stereos they're probably [TS]

  listening to pretty good music. [TS]

  Honestly music that was probably recorded better was probably never going to music that was that was played with more [TS]

  real instruments [TS]

  and less artificial tweaks to the sound less electronic instruments if any you know there's there was a lot more there [TS]

  like of substance that you could detect on gets area you know compared to like the very artificial clean sound of [TS]

  modern stuff. So they're listening to stuff that sounds better at higher resolution and higher detail. [TS]

  They're listening are really good stereos [TS]

  and they're making an event out of listening there this is the most important part by far they're paying attention [TS]

  when when you are told. This is why a B. X. Testing is so important when you are told. [TS]

  Listen to this this is going to sound amazing and it's played on a great stereo [TS]

  and you are expecting it to sound amazing he's been told it will sound amazing [TS]

  and you want to say it's an attractive idea of the old the romantic the analog being superior to the new crazy things [TS]

  the kids are doing these days. That's a very nice attractive idea people they want that to be true. [TS]

  So you're being told going to sound better you're in an environment where it looks impressive you're probably in front [TS]

  of an impressive looking stereo. And maybe it has some like old crazy things like tubes. [TS]

  Or at least I mean hell record players themselves are you know pretty crazy analog things especially the really [TS]

  advanced ones that are probably in these events that have like the electrically moving arm [TS]

  and all that sort of stuff so you have you're told to expect it. [TS]

  It looks impressive the system looks impressive it looks exotic and old and romantic. [TS]

  And then the music starts playing and you pay attention to it. [TS]

  This is critical you're you're not just putting music on. [TS]

  You are listening to the music [TS]

  and you're trying to hear your you're paying attention to what it sounds like you're listening for details you're [TS]

  trying to hear details you've never heard before [TS]

  and then you say oh my God I'm hearing details I've never heard before which is probably true [TS]

  but it's not because of anything inherently awesome about any individual component of that necessarily to the exclusion [TS]

  of its alternatives. It's because you're paying attention. [TS]

  Your mentor says in the event you're making you're telling yourself to enjoy the event so you're enjoying the event [TS]

  you're telling yourself it sounds good and the input you're getting from other factors like its appearance [TS]

  or the setting or whatever people are telling you about all these symbols are telling you this will sound great. [TS]

  So then when you listen it sounds great. [TS]

  And that's not to invalidate the experience because who cares if you're enjoying it and it sounds great [TS]

  and it works like this if the work basically got all the money you spent like give it making you happy. Right then. [TS]

  Then everything worked and another possibility is that people who have grown up with [TS]

  or even if they haven't grown a bit like you may simply prefer the sound of an accurate reproduction of live music. [TS]

  You may prefer those those frequencies to be tamped off. [TS]

  You may prefer that they're sort of an underlying noise to be underneath all that. [TS]

  That may sound better to you is better is subjective like that may sound better to you like that's fine to say I like [TS]

  the sound of vinyl better than CD because I like those things like it may be inaccurate because again you have to say [TS]

  OK fine we'll get you the same stereo will take the same song master the same way you do controlled experiment play [TS]

  while vinyl A See if you can tell which one is which and B. [TS]

  If you can tell them to say which one you prefer because once you can tell you May so I prefer the vinyl one. [TS]

  Whatever doesn't matter whatever you prefer is going to be refer. [TS]

  Where this goes wrong is when you say higher quality because I asked that you could say that subject a do [TS]

  but like Hark why we're talk about audio it's like the definition I gave the beginning [TS]

  when this music was played there was sound in the air. We want to take that sound put it somewhere and bring it back. [TS]

  What which way can we do that so we lose the least amount of information [TS]

  and CD winds over vinyl I mean that that's that's it like that to the foundation of this entire thing. [TS]

  Everything else you can say is you may say you prefer one thing or the other one thing makes you happy [TS]

  or so makes you happy [TS]

  or find you prefer one thing of the over of the other you can still be challenged say OK I will give you a double blind [TS]

  test R.N.A. Be accessed. [TS]

  Let's see if you can even tell which is which you probably can't [TS]

  and if you can tell maybe you're not sure which is which [TS]

  and then you've sort of punched a hole in your own kind of well I prefer that over the. [TS]

  Maybe you really don't prefer it [TS]

  but whatever you wouldn't subject yourself to that test unless you're trying to ruin your fun. [TS]

  If it makes you happy to listen to vinyl fine but where people go crazy about this [TS]

  and where you start to get into all of audio file tell Terry is where you start really truly believing the vinyl is the [TS]

  highest quality reproduction of music available it may be the best mastered version of that song available that may be [TS]

  true and that's why I said like porno might be better because it'll get better mastered versions of it. [TS]

  And you can say that if you think that's true. [TS]

  But that's where I'm going nuts over this thing is when you get into like oh it sounds fuller and richer [TS]

  and it's analog and all that other stuff that's that's what drives me face it. [TS]

  Nerds only you know everyone else just enjoy their music so maybe you could just look in the media like in the way you [TS]

  want enjoy it and not worry about it [TS]

  but I guess don't go on podcast with you're going to try don't talk about vinyl of the CD I have the floor please. [TS]

  You may or you too Don. Probably not but I doubt it. I'm stone sober and I'm so angry right now. [TS]

  OK There's a few things. [TS]

  Firstly I should make it plain that when I came to the conclusion that vinyl was better and I cannot speak for faith [TS]

  but [TS]

  when I came to the conclusion the vinyl was better in the limited experience that I have it was because I was playing [TS]

  modern recordings. [TS]

  One was Dave Matthews which Marcus McGraw you want but they are well recorded the first time [TS]

  and the other was Soundgarden I forget the name of the album but it was the one with I played [TS]

  or my dad played there's a vinyl or the CD and picked one of the songs and immediately played the other. [TS]

  Immediately after yes I know I knew which one was which. [TS]

  Yes I was predisposed are arguably predisposed to like one better than the others. [TS]

  So yes from a purely scientific point of view you could say that this test was flawed. [TS]

  Yes you could say that the dramatic difference that I heard which is exactly how I would describe it was all in my head. [TS]

  It very very well could be I have no kind of volume. [TS]

  Yeah in fact it's been shown that like in blind tests people overwhelmingly prefer an input that's like Point one. [TS]

  Sibyl turned up more than the other one even if the heart was identical. [TS]

  Yep that is slightly slightly louder and you'll sound better anyway. [TS]

  So regardless of whether or not it's based in science I can tell you that I definitely heard a difference [TS]

  and I'd definitely prefer preferred vinyl I will be the first to tell you that yes the medium is inherently flawed. [TS]

  You're screwing it up every time you use it. You're gonna have to get over hisses and pops and crackles and whatnot. [TS]

  Yes most of my father's record collection was bought in the fifty's sixty's and seventy's. [TS]

  But yes he does have a record cleaner specifically designed to clean L.P.'s that he uses almost every time he plays a [TS]

  record. Yes his CD player is so ridiculously out of control that it's actually what he calls it a transport right. [TS]

  Yes Thank you it's a transport and it's a digital analog converter I believe uses tubes because at some point [TS]

  or another that was the trendy thing to do and people believed it sounded better. [TS]

  Though in many communities that's still the case by the way. [TS]

  Yes you could argue that all of this is just one placebo on top of another on top of another [TS]

  but I think it was one I don't know which one of you that said it but one way or another. [TS]

  Let's assume I'm wrong [TS]

  and let's assume for the sake of conversation that I'm just completely full of it even if that's the case. [TS]

  The experience of going to a shelf full of vinyl [TS]

  and finding alphabetically the particular LP you want removing it this humongous disk that's like a foot wide [TS]

  or whatever it is removing it placing it on the cleaner putting the little solution on it having the little turntable [TS]

  cleaner thing spin and vacuum up the solution as you shimmy it across the record moving that something else. [TS]

  Don't you get me started about a party. All right so anyways move the record over to the turntable. [TS]

  You guess you three can guess where. [TS]

  There it is the song you want to play starts and you're probably going to be wrong [TS]

  but you can look at the little smooth ring not only aren't doing the work you can and I know and I know [TS]

  and dad who's done this for thirty years is much better at it than I am. [TS]

  All of this adds to the experience and I forgot to mention all the album art when that was still a thing [TS]

  and still fricken mattered. All of that taking picking the record out of the out of the sleeve gingerly. [TS]

  All of this adds to the experience and makes it more enjoyable for me. [TS]

  Don't forget chucking the disc of the base the what is that some right we didn't have a reference guide to throw in a [TS]

  night I'm glad he has a quota for you Marco to sit here and tell me I need a B.X. Test and blah blah blah. [TS]

  When's the last time you may be axed your coffee versus Starbucks. He didn't tell you you needed the A.B.A. [TS]

  Test like all the stuff you satisfy no one is arguing against like the tea ceremony sort of thing you have going to [TS]

  that like again I said whatever makes you happy then go for it like there's no reason to subject yourself to the [TS]

  scientific test if there is going to make you enjoy life less like that right. [TS]

  But [TS]

  but you also then can't make claims like vinyl is the highest quality source of music available because in that sense [TS]

  you didn't say what I really mean is that when the mass [TS]

  or things are vinyl they have more dynamic range in my preferred like you didn't say that you said vinyl and like it [TS]

  and you end up talking about the medium and then [TS]

  when you stray off into well digital can't capture all the nuances because it's discrete instead of giving this like [TS]

  the you're just off into the weeds and that's what people yell at you [TS]

  and it's like stick to your actual you know argue with you [TS]

  when you say you really enjoy the ceremony of Dylan if I don't know who are you with me [TS]

  when you say come on this is the Internet somebody will argue well I know but like they have a leg to stand on [TS]

  and I played the song on vinyl and the song entity specific songs [TS]

  and I liked it better if I don't find you like what you like you get into trouble [TS]

  when you go into like categorical you know scientific statements about capturing audio waveforms [TS]

  and reproducing them and that's where it all goes off the rails and that's where I think like it. [TS]

  In that kind of committee long enough where everyone reveres vinyl as the sort of thing to do. [TS]

  Eventually it just becomes like everybody knows vinyl sounds better and it just becomes accepted wisdom [TS]

  and that's not you so much more faith like it says we don't like in your circle of course vinyl sounds better than C. [TS]

  Everybody knows that I think an obvious fact that came believe you're arguing with me about it [TS]

  and that's what infuriates people inside that community. [TS]

  This stuff just wraps around on itself again [TS]

  and again until eventually it becomes accepted within the vinyl is better than CD which is not a true statement in [TS]

  and of itself and the nuances are now lost [TS]

  and it just becomes like that that's why I like a game of telephone where it's like a generation of people who don't [TS]

  know or care about the technical details and know they like the sound of vinyl better but they don't know why [TS]

  and their conclusion they come to is is false. [TS]

  See if you can take issue with the entire city of Austin believing the finals better as long as you put an asterisk at [TS]

  the end [TS]

  and say accept things in the same thing with me because we have come to this conclusion from personal experience there [TS]

  is no game of telephone for us now. [TS]

  Every other person on the planet that claims line is better fine telephone no no because it's bigger than her initial [TS]

  reaction was like well I would just listen to a CD on vinyl history out there like of course everybody knows that like [TS]

  it wasn't a controversial statement when she first made it and I think that's why she was taken by surprise by like [TS]

  and she's you know she backpedaled and tried to more narrowly divine or whatever [TS]

  but like that's what I'm glad I listened to the a little bit of a so if you haven't already I have I have sinned since [TS]

  I recorded. [TS]

  She threw it out there like as if it's like well everybody knows that in my circle so it's like if it wasn't that [TS]

  wasn't a topic the topic wasn't buying over there things like well I would never buy the stupid triangular player [TS]

  because of actually really cared about high quality music I just listened to it on vinyl and then Jason was like What. [TS]

  You know like he's he's not coming from that same environment where that [TS]

  and then she had to think about what I mean by that like if it's excepted wisdom in your circle of friends you don't [TS]

  think about what I mean by that is that they have to do with the mastering is vinyl actually better able to you know I [TS]

  mean like and maybe that has been thought through [TS]

  but I don't think that she was intending to make a declaration about the world as much as I probably was. [TS]

  I think she was more trying to say. [TS]

  This is what I feel [TS]

  and this is what I think I don't think she was trying to be the representative for Austin Texas last hipster Ville USA [TS]

  I can't speak for her but I'm pretty sure that that wasn't the intention. For me I was more going for a global. [TS]

  You are and you should listen to yourself and watch the video the market sent over and over again [TS]

  and do exercises in your same old assistant book until you convince yourself that it's B.S. [TS]

  but They were like the reason I brought it up on the show [TS]

  and in the after shows because I don't want to bring it up on our own talk of I already had an episode where I harangue [TS]

  them and faith does not need to be arranged but if you could you could take some Hering who will thank you [TS]

  and I still want to go back for you. [TS]

  I I do not understand how a man that spends an unbelievable amount of time fussing over a drink that's inherently [TS]

  disgusting and not helpful can throw stones at me because I want to enjoy music in my own little way. [TS]

  How wonderful if I knew maybe X. Tested your coffee. [TS]

  I would love the opportunity to solve the problem the problem of coffee [TS]

  and stuff like that is that there's no like it's not like capturing audio waveforms there is no original [TS]

  and a reproduction. [TS]

  So there is no sort of objective criteria by which you can judge it all it's all like how does this tasty Oh [TS]

  and then you can test the disabled this is really taste better. [TS]

  Maybe the special beings [TS]

  but like it's all subjective so you know like every city really replaces specially made coffee with K. [TS]

  Cups for a week and see if you notices but he would not. [TS]

  I mean hey if you want to if you want to orchestrate that I will gladly participate because I don't I don't like at all [TS]

  to be around. [TS]

  Well the market biggest market was trying to find like he's although he does all these fussy things I think what he's [TS]

  like. [TS]

  If there was some way that he could like snap his fingers and instantly have a cup of coffee with no mess [TS]

  and no muss I think it tasted good to him I think he would do it like he's not going out of it you know going out of [TS]

  your way to find the most complicated way to make coffee. [TS]

  No in fact making making coffee in my way I don't think actually takes more overall effort than using like a regular [TS]

  drip hardly ever use for years it is a little more effort than using a cake up machine [TS]

  but it's like I use an arrow for us. And I don't even do a super first year press and a roast their own beans. [TS]

  So that kind of thing that cranks up the fuzziness meter if you were to buy roaster invented outside of your house of [TS]

  the village smoke and figure out how to use the roaster it takes fifteen minutes every ten days. [TS]

  Iris I like the point is like the reason you're doing that is because you're trying to find the minimum like a coffee [TS]

  that tastes good to you but it also doesn't absorb your entire life in making it right [TS]

  and the reason why I've been doing all this audio research recently is because I also am an audio file. [TS]

  But I'm I'm not a ridiculous one like I'm really really super into good headphones [TS]

  and speakers I care a lot less about that I don't have a lot of opportunities to work on speakers right now my life [TS]

  but I'm really into really good headphones and I have now what I consider pretty ridiculous equipment. [TS]

  But getting here involves a lot of research and finding out like what mattered to me and what didn't [TS]

  and what what matters to science and what sense of to A B X test and what doesn't [TS]

  and it's all about striking a balance between practicality and cost and quality [TS]

  and vinyl you know your vinyl crazy Tea Ceremony is the exact same way like you're looking to get something out of that [TS]

  and you get it out of that if it's worth it to you fine. [TS]

  I agree with John that you know that you can't just go [TS]

  and say Oh well actually better than why you know if you're not saying well I enjoy the procedure of X. [TS]

  More than I had to have the procedure and experience of why [TS]

  but you know the reason why I pick on this sort of stuff in the audio world [TS]

  and in the coffee role even is because people do a lot of wasteful stupid things that actually don't have any effect [TS]

  and again if they enjoy them that's fine but the problem comes in when they start telling other people. [TS]

  If you do this it will be better. Or if you buy this it will be better. That actually gets destructive. [TS]

  But that's what you do with coffee. That's exactly why. Do a cough you die. [TS]

  Sure I could google a post where you told us about how roasting beans is the only way to do. [TS]

  Actually every time I've mentioned roasting my own beans on my site I say you shouldn't do this. [TS]

  Well I guess I guess if you're back to taste being subjective like it's not as not as now I go anywhere we have a way [TS]

  of here is the original And let's see if we can reproduce in that unlike the generally accepted level of quality in [TS]

  audio is like we want to reproduce the original as accurately as possible and like [TS]

  and I don't even think that necessarily makes people feel as good because the original It's not just the way form it's [TS]

  like where you're sitting in the room and vibrations coming through your seed [TS]

  and oil like the so many things about live music that are different than normal. [TS]

  So again you could be a hybrid that I prefer when when the [TS]

  when the original single is reproduced in accurately in these ways in fact in particular the way that vinyl tends to [TS]

  accurately reproduce it that's what I like better. [TS]

  Fine you can like it but our standard for audio is compared to the original. [TS]

  There's a standard for coffee if you like McDonald's coffee Dunkin Donuts coffee cake up like whatever you like is what [TS]

  you like you can say well that's not how coffee supposed to take us and this is all subjective [TS]

  and Marco has particular tastes in coffee and to his tastes. Starbucks is gross and what he makes is good. [TS]

  Someone may love Starbucks and hate is coffee or whatever [TS]

  but there's no easy yardstick except for like I guess some things like damages your body by drinking [TS]

  and we can all agree that you probably shouldn't have that although maybe that's a bad choice for coffee. [TS]

  Well no I but I think Coffee does damage your body in before Marco interrupts me what I mean by that Lance doesn't. [TS]

  What I mean by that is part of the reason I don't ever want to learn to like coffee is because I don't ever want to [TS]

  rely on having something in order to get my day going. [TS]

  I can go weeks without a diet coke but I like to now but I don't and I don't run my life based on whether [TS]

  or not I've had my lunchtime Diet Coke and maybe Marco isn't this way although I feel like you are. [TS]

  But most people I know like that I work with for example they go in [TS]

  and they don't want to be talked to until they've stuck a cake up in the Keurig and they can't. [TS]

  They feel like they can't function until they've completed that stage of their mourning [TS]

  and that just sounds positively frickin terrible to me it really does. [TS]

  Well Mark has already said he doesn't like that aspect of coffee drinkers [TS]

  and I mean if he is a capping addict you know I am a Cappy addict in that if I don't have coffee I will get a headache [TS]

  by about four pm or so. But when do you think I have my first cup of coffee today. [TS]

  Oh well you probably work up a new ring. [TS]

  I woke up at about a third of that that I was totally give you know her know her a thirty I worked all morning I have [TS]

  my first cup of coffee at about two thirty. How are you going about eight thirty. [TS]

  Your wife is a saint and I give a separate area thirty to thirty though your child the saint [TS]

  and saying you should not you should not share that widely to the point of driving at is less about the time [TS]

  but more about if you do not consume a cup of coffee during the day [TS]

  or equivalent caffeine something is amiss in your world. [TS]

  Could you live with it perhaps but something is amiss and I just don't want that in my life. [TS]

  Agreed so then instead you listen to vinyl which involves washing things and sleeving them [TS]

  and wiping the wash off the sleeve he doesn't he doesn't even have a record player right. I never do. [TS]

  The only time I was in the finals when I met my mom [TS]

  and dad's which up until two months from now they lived in Connecticut so I was in the final two [TS]

  or three times a year [TS]

  and you know what maybe that's why romanticize it so damn much maybe it's because I grew up with it there's a million [TS]

  reasons why [TS]

  and I will concede that I should not have said that it is the be all end all better mechanism for listening to music [TS]

  but I will not concede that in any experience I've ever had I prefer it be a placebo or otherwise. [TS]

  I still love you guys even though I want to kill you both. Marc about follow up do you know it. [TS]